You want to be stronger? Don't train on Earth you sissy. Train in conditions harder than where you'll be fighting. Train in 10x earth's gravity. 200x earth's gravity. 400x. If you want to win train for something even harder than the competition. We're already seeing this effect with foreigners training in Korea who come home and stomp other foreigners.
So why not apply this to Starcraft 2? We don't lift weights. We don't need strength (although EG might argue otherwise). But we do need speed. The more the better. So what if we had to play faster. What if we were forced to because of the environment. Play faster or die trying. What if we were forced to train under harsher conditions than normal. What would happen when we returned to normal?
Unfortunately we're all such speed freaks that we're already using the fastest speed enabled in game by Blizzard. In fact I'm convinced that no matter what the 'fastest' speed was (barring ridiculousness) we would probably be gravitating toward that. Remember broodwar? Did blizzard ever intend for competition to be played on fastest?
Enter the map editor. There's no default way to just ramp up the speed as far as I know but there are work arounds. We're living with a map editor powerful enough to make entirely different genres. A lot a lot. No one really knows where the limits of the sc2 editor lay but we certainly havn't hit them yet.
What if we created a custom mod. Insert a percentage at the start of the game and everything increases by that amount. Units build that much faster. Units move that much quicker. Upgrades finish that much faster. Resources come in that much quicker. Can you learn to macro and micro correctly at 25% increased normal speed. What about 50%? The possibilities are exciting.
The actual implementation does not seem overtly complicated but certainly would take a decent amount of time in the editor to make right. Either a manual altering of all the relevant data fields for each unit or a trigger that could change them at the game's start. Something along those lines must be possible and in terms of what actually needs to be changed... attack speed/movement speed/build time/harvest time just about covers it across the board.
If you're trying to match Vegeta you might as well start at 50x normal speed and gradually ramp up to 400x. Otherwise you'll never become the best SC2 player in the world.
The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.
Playing vs the best in korea is different than playing a different game. That would be like saying if you played 1k games of BW instead of 1k games of SC2, you would be better off with the BW practice? Your apm allocation would be all off if you played on increased speed, and even if you supposedly reached the equilibrium in APM with the new level it's not like you would drop down to standard with an extra 150 apm ready for executing more maneuvers because the extra apm gained would be from "standard play" in +50%
With your practice IF you could reach 600, you wouldn't be improving anything but APM, and when you hit it the 600 apm would be for a standard game. So you're saying you would have 200 extra APM when you returned to fastest BW, which you would. But it you wouldn't know how to use it. In context of your example, vegita may be 300x stronger/faster, but he'll still need to put the 300x amount of work into it utilizing it. So for every extra point of APM that you earn, you still need to learn how to allocate that point of APM, it doesn't come naturally.
TL;DR it's do-able, but a completely inefficient way to allocate your practice time.
I don't want some bronze player to come to TL for his first time and be influenced by QXC's reputation as a good player and think that this is a good way to go from bronze to GM, because while it's a bad idea for someone at the pro level, it's utterly detrimental to a new player because they'll be cutting a lot more corners than he will be.
Not too sure I quite agree with this; a lot of my ability to inject consistently is that I can roughly mentally realise when it's time to inject again; if the speed was increased (or decreased) this would create problems, as opposed to fixing them.
As a general way of forcing you to play faster; that is, as a crude way to increase your APM, I really like the possibilities of a custom map such as the one you've described.
Also, get back to studying.
RE-EDIT:
On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: With your practice IF you could reach 600, you wouldn't be improving anything but APM, and when you hit it the 600 apm would be for a standard game. So you're saying you would have 200 extra APM when you returned to fastest BW, which you would. But it you wouldn't know how to use it. In context of your example, vegita may be 300x stronger/faster, but he'll still need to put the 300x amount of work into it utilizing it. So for every extra point of APM that you earn, you still need to learn how to allocate that point of APM, it doesn't come naturally.
Oh yeah, I also remember reading somewhere that back in the early Brood War days, the way BoxeR practiced was to play team melee vs two people, one doing pure macro and one doing pure micro. That way he could play vs theoretically perfect micro and macro to push himself to the limits. You can try something like that too.
On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.
yknow i was thinking this the other day too. if there's anyone who can train it it'd be you pros so here's hoping something gets developed for you guys =D
On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.
I can't begin to explain how wrong this is.
thanks for the contribution then?
You hadn't elaborated on your post; your initial statement is extremely misleading: he isn't going to be making shortcuts, he's going to be increasing his APM but have no ability to apply it in a standard game, thus making it less useful (in my opinion) than normal practice.
On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.
I can't begin to explain how wrong this is.
thanks for the contribution then?
You hadn't elaborated on your post; your initial statement is extremely misleading: he isn't going to be making shortcuts, he's going to be increasing his APM but have no ability to apply it in a standard game, thus making it less useful (in my opinion) than normal practice.
It's misleading because I don't make the assumption that QXC will reach the "600" apm. If he did, he wouldn't be cutting corners, but anything sub "equilibrium" apm at +50% speed isn't efficient, so he would have to be cutting corners to play near the same level (the same way a D+ has to cut corners to get to the late game where as an A player doesn't have to because they can correctly allocate the full amount of apm [400] where the D+ player has to allocate an insufficient amount of APM [200] so they can't possibly play a perfect game).
interesting idea. Though I have to agree with endy on this.
Though with your orignal statement which was more or less how to make training more intense and harder. There are other ways that it can be done. maybe not by speed. But by other factors.
On October 07 2011 16:04 Newbistic wrote: Oh yeah, I also remember reading somewhere that back in the early Brood War days, the way BoxeR practiced was to play team melee vs two people, one doing pure macro and one doing pure micro. That way he could play vs theoretically perfect micro and macro to push himself to the limits. You can try something like that too.
What about that instead of speeding up the game? With all the talk about a speed increase being inefficient if you end up cutting corners or messing up timings you would learn over time but it still would force you to play at a higher pace.
Definitely something worth trying, I would be interested in the idea that it might make you get a little too used to the faster timings for macro mechanics/build timings etc essentially causing you to cycle more than you need to, as others have said. I wonder though, about maybe just playing a small amount faster, say 10%ish so that you are still essentially right on the timings but still get the benefit of the game being easier to execute than practice. Definitely a great idea to try in various ways though.
I've always thought about doing something other than SC2 to work on reacting, deciding, and moving faster so that physically and mentally you are used to performing quickly on a mouse/keyboard whereas when you play SC2 you are largely working on the strategy. Somewhat like football players working their bodies in the gym and then spending time on technique and strategy on the practice field.
On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.
Playing vs the best in korea is different than playing a different game. That would be like saying if you played 1k games of BW instead of 1k games of SC2, you would be better off with the BW practice? Your apm allocation would be all off if you played on increased speed, and even if you supposedly reached the equilibrium in APM with the new level it's not like you would drop down to standard with an extra 150 apm ready for executing more maneuvers because the extra apm gained would be from "standard play" in +50%
With your practice IF you could reach 600, you wouldn't be improving anything but APM, and when you hit it the 600 apm would be for a standard game. So you're saying you would have 200 extra APM when you returned to fastest BW, which you would. But it you wouldn't know how to use it. In context of your example, vegita may be 300x stronger/faster, but he'll still need to put the 300x amount of work into it utilizing it. So for every extra point of APM that you earn, you still need to learn how to allocate that point of APM, it doesn't come naturally.
TL;DR it's do-able, but a completely inefficient way to allocate your practice time.
actually, that's not really how it works. you end up with such faster macro that there is more time spent twiddling your thumbs, and unless you're an idiot or something you quickly realize you can spend that time moving units around. ever played on normal? i'm pretty sure certain campaign difficulties are on normal and it really feels like child's play.
I think it would be the same as us going and playing a game in SC2 on normal speed. There would seem like so much more time to do things. You would never feel flustered, micro'ing would become easier, you would check your buildings more frequently.
I can't see this being bad for play, except maybe timings in your head, but thats why you can't 100% train like this. Would be good specific Macro and Micro training though imo
Edit: This
On October 07 2011 16:21 Herculix wrote: actually, that's not really how it works. you end up with such faster macro that there is more time spent twiddling your thumbs, and unless you're an idiot or something you quickly realize you can spend that time moving units around. ever played on normal? i'm pretty sure certain campaign difficulties are on normal and it really feels like child's play.
On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.
Playing vs the best in korea is different than playing a different game. That would be like saying if you played 1k games of BW instead of 1k games of SC2, you would be better off with the BW practice? Your apm allocation would be all off if you played on increased speed, and even if you supposedly reached the equilibrium in APM with the new level it's not like you would drop down to standard with an extra 150 apm ready for executing more maneuvers because the extra apm gained would be from "standard play" in +50%
With your practice IF you could reach 600, you wouldn't be improving anything but APM, and when you hit it the 600 apm would be for a standard game. So you're saying you would have 200 extra APM when you returned to fastest BW, which you would. But it you wouldn't know how to use it. In context of your example, vegita may be 300x stronger/faster, but he'll still need to put the 300x amount of work into it utilizing it. So for every extra point of APM that you earn, you still need to learn how to allocate that point of APM, it doesn't come naturally.
TL;DR it's do-able, but a completely inefficient way to allocate your practice time.
actually, that's not really how it works. you end up with such faster macro that there is more time spent twiddling your thumbs, and unless you're an idiot or something you quickly realize you can spend that time moving units around. ever played on normal? i'm pretty sure certain campaign difficulties are on normal and it really feels like child's play.
You're telling me that if you went from playing BW on fastest to playing BW on normal on iccup you would have better micro/macro in a long game on normal? I don't believe you at all, I've tried playing on normal and the differences in how it plays out are super frustrating. In theory what you're saying is correct, but it feels completely different, and you still won't know how to effectively allocate the APM. You still have to relearn to use the APM if you want to use it correctly, but if you don't believe me then you can feel free to try to improve using this method then we can 1v1 and test it out.
Your timing would be all off A marine that finishes in 15 real seconds would finish in 12 real seconds and you would get used to that. I played on Normal speed once, it was way too weird and -I couldn't do anything right, it just feels so wrong.
I once made a sc2 custom game for my friend and I to practice on normal on accident. We played it out but it was extremely frustrating. I kept wanting to build probes before their build time was up, I would send probes too early or too late to build building. My sense of warpgate cycles was compeltely off. Micro felt unnatural and weird because of the different timing.
I think in a game that hinges or muscle memory and timing, playing on a different speed than what is used for competition will have negative side effects that far outweigh an increase in APM.
In one of Grubby's vlogs from korea he talks about the ogs coach telling him that he plays too slow. When Grubby asked him how to get faster the coach told him, "just play faster."
I am no pro but I think the coach is right. Deliberate practice is much more effective than just playing games and hoping to get better. If you want to play faster, then just deliberately focus on playing faster.
you're better off, I think, by just forcing yourself to do more stuff.
Currently I'm training myself to execute my basic macro faster by playing strategies that revolve around constant use of phoenixes. Phoenixes take a lot of attention to control at even a basic level, so unless you want your macro to fall to absolute shit, or lose your phoenixes, you have to be able to do it all much more quickly than normal.
really neat idea but i dont see how it will help much. it works for vegeta and goku because they have mastered their fighting ability at Earth's gravity. Thus, they can "move up" to the next level. However, in our case, we cannot even keep up with the current speed and we already miss so many things. Even the pros can never play perfectly at this speed. So increasing the game speed even more would only hurt.
The day we have mastered the current speed, is the day we should ramp up the speed. not now though.
Part of me wants to think you've already done this to some extent when you had trolls non-stop message you on stream during ladder games. Imagine if you had someone obsing everyone of your games and going "Supply depot" or "defend 6'o clock" or "next upgrade" etc, but substituted that for an automated alert system to instill timings concretely. Only problem with that is how dynamic every game is..
Maybe an efficient way of getting more out of your practice is to train your conscious mind to be subconscious when it needs to be with very specific scenarios. For example, when taking new bases, always send units to clear the "scouts" spotting for when you expand, or location hotkey every base and check them all every 30 seconds.
I though there was a map where everything was 16x speed of normal or something? so it should be easily possible to do that? and yeah like 5-10% and gradually increasing would seem more reasonable ^^
I think best would be to play against 2-3 people using shared unit control that would constantly harass you with two separate armies while the other guy macros for them. You could probably even set this up in a normal custom game though a mod would probably be easier in the long run.
This reminds me of when I trained for DDR first then started to play ITG(In The Groove) DDR I was able to be able to pass songs on hard by day 3, though it was a 7 step expert song, I was able to pass it. By the time I was done training and got there I fell sick for 7 days straight and was coughing up blood, after I got better though I was much healthier, if you exercise too much and surpass your limits a lot, your body can't protect itself from infection or germs of any sort very well.
Later on I tried to do ITG, which in comparison to DDR is incredibly hard. DDR is for babies when compares to ITG.
DDR hardest song:
Itg: Piece of Poetry, harder than any and all songs combined in DDR.(This isn't even the hardest thing in ITG, I came close to passing this myself 10 steps away.)
This is a marathon song in ITG (Looks easy even =B)
This is just a comparison, but what qxc says is right. By practicing on something like that it would improve your gameplay overall as the training would tax you much more than playing. But one side effect to go from harder to slower is readjusting at times. I've actually failed an 8 step on DDR from playing it wrong =B even though I've passed one winged angel on ITG. One Winged Angel has 1900+ steps in it hardest songs in DDR don't even have 1k steps.
Anyway, I'd love a program like this myself, I'd use it to increase my effective apm. As I hate to spam APM and would rather just do what I have to do.
Hahahah. I had a similar thought inspired by DBZ a while a go:
Weighted training. So would you weight down your hands with some weights? I guess so but I was more thinking of mental weights. Like being drunk.
Imagine if you could work your way into the GM league, constantly drunk. Then when you enter a tournament or whatever, play completely sober. Suddenly everything would move soo much slower and decision making would be soo much clearer.
That's the theorey anyway. Haven't put it into practice yet.
I think your idea might be connected to the origins of SC and BW being played faster from "normal" to "fastest" settings, but I'm not very knowledgeable in that area.
I am however, under the impression that the proper equivalent of the idea you're trying to propose would be something more akin to the "team melee" option. If I recall correctly, some BW progamers would train to combat Flash's unparalleled multitasking abilities by using team melee and having 2 progamers take control of 1 Terran increasing the difficulty of their training.
The same idea carries over in SC2 in that you want to be training against opponents that can do more within the standard competitive time frame (e.g. "faster" setting) and not play against an opponent that doesn't do anything more, but that time simply moves faster. The difference could be demonstrated in a player gaining more training benefit from playing Korean ladder players who seemingly have "more stuff" and "better control" than their AM counter-parts. If this player would have adopted your idea, then he would simply be playing the same AM ladder players who have "less stuff" and "less control" but everything would just be abbreviated and he would still not be able to handle the Korean players.
Being that SC2 is less mechanically demanding than BW, weighted training could take a bigger emphasis on preparation and decision making rather than pure mechanics. For example, instead of focusing on APM, focusing on unit control (e.g. similar to unit tester maps we currently have, but instead have "modified tournament maps" where a player could start with X number of Y units and play out a common scenario over and over again like holding off/executing a cheese, etc. OR even load the same mid/late-game scenario with different units to see what a good unit match-up/potential timing could be).
If I'm not mistaken, players like Flash spent periods in their careers where they played less games than their counter-parts and focused more on thinking through situations so their thought process and decision making would be refined along with their mechanics. It goes without saying though that, "less" in this case is strictly a relative thing. Like the history of the human race is a very short period of time relative to the existence of the universe, sort of relative thing.
I don't understand the people bringing up larvae injects. Why would you rely on "oh it's probably about now" instead of tabbing your bases? I realize not everyone has bases hotkeyed with camera positions or has queens or hatches bound individually, but assuming you do all injects right after another, you'd only have to check one base.
As for the OP, it would certainly be very interesting to try. If it would be an effective way of training is another matter, but I definitely believe it should be considered
It's worth the try. Seeing that we are humans, there are a lot of obstacles and limits. Sometimes, going over the limit would just break you. Sometimes, growth occurs when one goes beyond one's limits.
My concern with the idea is that if you train at faster then the usual speed, then when you actually play for serious you may be so used to the faster game that you'll mess up your timings. Also if they make some tournies at faster speed it seems like it would cause a lot of strain for the commentators, and so the viewers.
No need for special training maps, just play two games at once. Probably more taxing than doubling the speed with less impact on your internalized timings.
to the nay sayers: this is actually a technique used by musicians to make difficult passages appear slower than they actually are - although this would not comprise the bulk of their practise but rather just when they plateau at a certain speed - a couple of times they might play 10% faster than they can cope with just to make it seem easier when the speed returns to normal.
instead of training at hyper speed, why not just make the condition so fucking bad that you would want to rip someone's head off? -flickering monitor -a keyboard and mouse that response 90% of the time,
bad: sc2 is about timings, you get a feeling about "when" a certain strat hits you. you might forget about that. also, other timings might be screwed unless you look on a watch.
good: your minimap control will increase a lot. your apm might increase a lot. your micro might get much better
Very cool idea, but I would assume that increased speed would have negative implications for your game as well. For example, zerg would lose all rhythm in there inject timings. But yeah, for pure mechanical skill, it may just work.
i have an idea, but its not fully formed yet. someone needs to help me out
okay, so when this map is made, it would be with 2 real people playing against each other, right? so then even though everything you do would be slower relative to the game, it would be the same for the other person. this wouldnt be the same as foreigners going to korea, because when they go to korea, they play against people better than them. in this, you would still be playing people of relatively equal skill, and youre both handicapped the same way.
going back to the DBZ analogy, it would be like sparring against someone in the gravity chamber. yes, youre slower, but so are they. once again, youre fighting on equal grounds.
using the map wouldnt be so much as training with 200g, but more like running with ankle weights. yes, it does make your legs a little stronger, but not by much. however, when you take the ankle weights off, your legs FEEL lighter and it FEELS like youre going faster, even though you probably arent that much faster. (another analogy would be high altiude training)
in my opinion, using the map when it gets made would help your multitasking, but in the long term, its not going to be a miracle training that puts you into grandmasters.
I think the idea is solid, but I question the reality of the execution. If you, or somebody else, wants to go through the trouble of dealing with the map editor (however strong, it's still a pain to go through that thing) to create a single map that allows you to play at a faster speed, by all means please go and do it.
But I have some questions. QXC, are you really struggling to play at a faster speed? And if so, what aspect of your play is limiting your speed? Is it you physical mechanics, or your mental power? If you just want to move your fingers faster, it might be a really good way to go about getting better. But if you want to be able to react better to multiple actions and respond appropriately and in a timely manner, you will need more than just playing faster to achieve those results.
I would urge you to think more about ways that you could improve, both physically and mentally. There are many activities that you can do that can be a sort of cross-trainer (similar to sports). I have heard many athletes say that their sport is roughly 30% physical and 70% mental (or so my cross-country running friend has told me). At the end of the day, in Starcraft 2, the player left standing is the player who can think longer and harder than their opponent, so search out activities that will challenge your mental strength, and then push yourself in your practices to get faster. If you can find something that can help you improve at both, that's great! But, if you can find ways to push the boundaries of your mind while still honing your thoughts on Starcraft and the situations you would find yourself in, you'll be solid.
I hope you spend some time and critically think about my thoughts. Let me know what you think ;D
Best of luck!
:EDIT: Additional point
lcl pointed out that musicians will sometimes play passages at a faster than normal performance speed to make the passage seem easier when played at a normal speed. But, how did they get to that point? They go through the passage very, very slowly. learning each and every note, until they have the intonation perfected. I've played violin for over 10 years now, and have picked up several instruments since, and EVERY new song that I learn, and want to know inside and out, I practice slowly. Slowly and very methodically, always thinking throughout the song about what I am doing at that moment and what is coming up next, and constantly hearing the piece in my mind as I go on. Playing things at a faster pace is a good way to push yourself to become comfortable with executing something, but the faster pace does nothing if you don't actually know what you are doing. If anything, I would say slow your play down so you understand, precisely, what is you are doing, before you go thinking you're going to be super gosu for practicing at 200% (exaggerated) the normal speed. Only to find that when you get into a game, you still lose because you didn't understand what in the world you were doing.
If you would be able to play with even faster game speed it would be awesome and really help alot in practice. Just imagine if you play 1 week with superfast speed and you are trying to do all the stuff but its really hard then you switch to normal speed and notice '' lol multitasking is so easy '' and you will handle 2 pronged attack while macroing in your base so easily.
IB all the TL noobs who will wake up tomorrow and read the spotlight description and rush in here to show their amazement that Flash is going to be moving to SC2.
On October 07 2011 20:12 Emporio wrote: IB all the TL noobs who will wake up tomorrow and read the spotlight description and rush in here to show their amazement that Flash is going to be moving to SC2.
On October 07 2011 20:12 Emporio wrote: IB all the TL noobs who will wake up tomorrow and read the spotlight description and rush in here to show their amazement that Flash is going to be moving to SC2.
flash is moving to sc2?!?!?!
wp sir, unless he trolled you ><
OP made me nostalgic, it's already a good day, and I expect you to be doing x50 speed customs on stream o.O
On October 07 2011 20:12 Emporio wrote: IB all the TL noobs who will wake up tomorrow and read the spotlight description and rush in here to show their amazement that Flash is going to be moving to SC2.
It's strange to me that you bring this up QXC, because I've been thinking quite the opposite lately. You see, a few months back i was taking my friend to work. On my way out, I saw through a window that there were kids practicing karate. What really clicked in my mind though was the way they were practicing. In karate, you don't just learn how to kick and punch - You learn it slowly. What I mean is that they don't just teach how to kick - they teach you the motion in which you kick. You start out doing these kicks or punches slowly, and you get faster until you can do it fluidly at a pace which a real fight might happen. If someone without any karate experience were to try to imitate a black belt without first practicing, they would look and probably feel rather foolish as they tried to do these moves.
So what I'm suggesting is that maybe everyone should practice at a SLOWER rate, then increase the speed gradually as you get use to making these moves more fluidly. Perhaps this would only apply to n00bs, but it could help pro players I would think, or at least those who are somewhere between pro and n00b.
I'm not sure if that would work though, because when you make the switch to the next speed, you have to adjust to all your timings. However, if you practice at such a slow rate, and can nail everything perfectly because of how slow it was, your timings should be some what irrelevant (when compared to the game clock) because a lot of what you do is followed up by another action. An example would be (since I play zerg) when you start the Pathogen Glands upgrade, about halfway is when you can start producing infestors to insure they will have enough energy to cast Fungal Growth the moment they are finished producing. What this example means is that I feel like (and I would appreciate if a masters or grand masters would correct me here) a lot of timings in the game are based upon the previous actions leading up to it, not the game time itself.
With this in mind, if you practiced at a slower speed, it would be easier for you to pick up when these timings occur, and would (to me) you would adjust pretty quickly when moving up to the next speed. Also with this in mind, perhaps QxC is right in the idea, that once you have mastered these timings pretty well, playing at an even faster speed than the game is played at currently may continue the momentum that practicing at a slower speed had produced for a player who was not of master league skill.
I sort of typed my response as I went a long instead of organizing it, but I think QxC may be on to something here. If he isn't maybe I'm on to something for training n00bs how to play the game more precisely by slowing the speed down.
^ well not the starting slowly and building up speed part; that's all well and good for a musical instrument.
I'd only want a faster game, cause it's so anti-climatic waiting for 4 minutes or something to set your base up, only to have a collosi race, or something equally unfun.
At least if you could speed past the early game, it'd be more fun; and 6pools would be kinda more fun to deal with as everything will be moving on crack
wouldn't playing practice games and choosing to go at less than 100% work? it would force you to gain an edge (macro) and yet still have to micro your ass off to stand a chance... also wouldn't screw up timings (inject, mule, chrono, attacks).. this style would force you to play more passively and safer.
People have actually done this for BW I did it myself, use a tool that speeds up programs by 50% (or more) and play BW, I thought it was cool at the time, when i played normal speed it did seem like i had more time to do things, (people use the same kind of program to slow the PC down to cheat for high score-based games like icy tower) there was a foreign team whose players trained like that for a time as well, cant remember which one, but I think they did stop doing that eventually.
On October 07 2011 20:30 sigma_x wrote: If you've ever played a musical instrument, you will know this logic is flawed.
Not really. You start out playing slowly to master technique/accuracy and then get faster over time. If you were to increase the speed of an SC2 game by like 2 percent at a time it would be basically the same thing.
I play drums and I know that doing various rolls at 120bpm helps my playing at 80bpm immensely, more so than just practicing them at 80bpm. The ability to play at greater speeds almost certainly means more comfort at lower speeds, and more comfort typically means better technique and accuracy.
I think it's an idea with potential. Other people have mentioned that having an extra 40apm won't help if you have no idea what to do with that apm, but I think you will find things to do with it. You're not just going to do nothing with the time that you gain from being faster at mechanical things.
Great idea I like the way your attempting to train this way it makes sense, but like some others have said, it will ruin build order times and such but i guess your not intending it that way.
To get a straight up 200/200 army and micro/macro before after and during at faster speed be awesome.
Just one thing. Speed banelings vs Marines and seige would be epic training @ Speed
Gl, and remember...Goku > All (if you forget the Cell saga when Gohan owned)
After watching 5-10 replays at 2x - 8x speed, normal ladder does seem slow to me for awhile, its interesting, I think that this style might have some merit.
I think the first step is to play slower and learn to play PERFECTLY at a slower speed, then incrementally faster until you can play perfectly at 20% faster than normal speed.
There's no point playing FAST if you're still playing WRONG, once you slow it down you'll notice small optimizations you can make, which you can then reflexively incorporate into the faster play.
On October 07 2011 20:30 sigma_x wrote: If you've ever played a musical instrument, you will know this logic is flawed.
Not really. You start out playing slowly to master technique/accuracy and then get faster over time. If you were to increase the speed of an SC2 game by like 2 percent at a time it would be basically the same thing.
I play drums and I know that doing various rolls at 120bpm helps my playing at 80bpm immensely, more so than just practicing them at 80bpm. The ability to play at greater speeds almost certainly means more comfort at lower speeds, and more comfort typically means better technique and accuracy.
I think it's an idea with potential. Other people have mentioned that having an extra 40apm won't help if you have no idea what to do with that apm, but I think you will find things to do with it. You're not just going to do nothing with the time that you gain from being faster at mechanical things.
I probably should have written more than a one-liner. My point is broadly the same as that of hoby2000. Slower practice which aims at technique and accuracy is far better and more useful than an attempt to play above and beyond what is required. I don't really need to point to an example in music to prove this, after all you freely admit that point. I am also somewhat sceptical of the belief that faster playing translates to effective outcomes. When you go slowly (building it up to normal speed), you master accuracy and technique, which is the whole point of the exercise. When you go faster than what is needed (to be precise, as a matter of core practice and not as a matter of 'changing it up') particularly when the normal pace is already very fast, you miss timings, cut corners and spend unnecessary energy and time on the faster pace. Practice time is better spent elsewhere and in more efficient ways.
How about we take another note from the Dragon Ball saga and practice with training weights on?
Not necessarily literally (although tiny little weights for your fingers would be pretty funny), but you could consider turning mouse sensitivity waaaay down so that you have to work for every click. This would improve APM efficiency, because every click would most certainly be an important one, considering it's so difficult to move to the next click. I don't known how you could replicate this with the keyboard.... maybe increase that amount of times that you need to push a key in order for the action to be executed?
Anyway, hopefully when these conditions are removed, using the mouse and keyboard will feel very easy, just like the lightness feeling when one removes training weights, and you'll be a lot faster because it was so difficult to be fast before. This won't, however, effect very important things like timing in the game since it is still on the regular speed settings (and by regular I mean fastest)
I never really watched DBZ all that much, but I remember that training montage. Incidentally, one of my guitar teachers in college did some of the voices for DBZ at Funimation. Not incidentally, I'm a guitar player, and while I don't really play very much anymore, I know how to practice and improve, and I'm capable of playing pretty much anything. One of the things that's been beaten into my head over the years is that to get better, you don't try to play something faster. You play it more slowly, slowly enough to not make any mistakes. And you keep playing it slowly until you're ready to play it a little faster, etc. Honestly that's the fastest way to improve.
another thing of interest, many players use hand warmers at tournaments because cold hands = slower /stiff movements.....so if you practice in a very cold or perhaps /chilled environment. and get good with it. when your hands are warm would you not feel/ actually just be faster?
I think the naysayers are being overly hasty in dismissing this idea. It is definitely worth a try, and I am willing to wager that the benefits will outweigh its drawbacks.
It's radical new thinking like this which "can" change everything. Indeed most new ideas have their skeptics and rightfully so. However, it's up to those who aren't to prove them wrong and do the best they can to prove their idea. Don't underestimate the human brain, over many decades many many sports have slowly sped up. Usually a game change as a result of faster/stronger athletes being able to execute better/faster strategies etc.. etc..If you were to play on say 10% faster for a month, then 15% or 20% faster and draw it out over a long period it would lessen any effects of cutting corners. It would require a lot of people on a pro level, playing often to test properly.
The problem with the idea to play at a faster game speed is that it's all relative to your opponent. If you don't have an opponent that can play nearly as good as he can play at normal ("faster") speed, then all you're doing is getting good at a faster game. Yes, you'll probably exercise your mechanics, but all you're really doing is figuring out what aspects of the game to focus your attention to at that speed. You might get marginally better at micro if you decide to focus on microing in battles, or you'll just say "fuck it, it's more advantageous to multi-prong drop since my opponent can't handle it as well as before". You'll learn to cut the corners you know can be cut, but I'll bet you had a general idea about what to prioritize before the inception of this idea. You will be deciding what to put your APM into as opposed to being able to handle both originally - which, yes will eventually get your APM higher, but won't translate as well in other than mechanics and SOME strategy/theory that you probably already knew. Basically, you're learning a new game, and figuring out the best ways to exploit the new game while hopefully improving mechanics. Now, if you can find a player who can at least somewhat match their "faster" skill on the proposed "fastestestest" you wish to train on, I don't know for sure how much the effort will pay off, unless you force yourself to play as you normally would, and not exploit the fact that your opponent is playing in the same conditions as you. Just my two cents.
Edit: I guess the idea of training in higher gravity in DBZ wasn't to do anything but get you physically more fit, as opposed to making you better at combat... so in that respect, if you aim merely to improve your mechanics, then yeah, this will work as long as you deliberately keep yourself from exploiting the environment against your opponent. Either way, anyone decides to do this, I sincerely wish you the best of luck, and hope it works.
On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.
this problem is easy to circumvent... just play at a slightly faster speed until you can play without cutting corners, then increase the speed
obviously you dont add 50% speed off the bat when you're training
I would give this a shot. I think it would help someone improve in some areas of their game (decision making, efficiency in terms of clicking and whatnot) but obviously wouldn't help as much with learning timings and things that are dependent on the unmodified metagame. If someone is able to create a mod like this I think it would be great to try!
I remember accidentally having set a custom game on normal speed, I felt like I could bake a cake, take a shower, watch some tv and play at the same time But its a good idea, however it takes 2 to tango in this game so to really improve you would also need >= skilled opponents. Cuz just like any other saiyan you only get stronger by being beaten to near death by a stronger opponent
On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.
Playing vs the best in korea is different than playing a different game. That would be like saying if you played 1k games of BW instead of 1k games of SC2, you would be better off with the BW practice? Your apm allocation would be all off if you played on increased speed, and even if you supposedly reached the equilibrium in APM with the new level it's not like you would drop down to standard with an extra 150 apm ready for executing more maneuvers because the extra apm gained would be from "standard play" in +50%
With your practice IF you could reach 600, you wouldn't be improving anything but APM, and when you hit it the 600 apm would be for a standard game. So you're saying you would have 200 extra APM when you returned to fastest BW, which you would. But it you wouldn't know how to use it. In context of your example, vegita may be 300x stronger/faster, but he'll still need to put the 300x amount of work into it utilizing it. So for every extra point of APM that you earn, you still need to learn how to allocate that point of APM, it doesn't come naturally.
TL;DR it's do-able, but a completely inefficient way to allocate your practice time.
actually, that's not really how it works. you end up with such faster macro that there is more time spent twiddling your thumbs, and unless you're an idiot or something you quickly realize you can spend that time moving units around. ever played on normal? i'm pretty sure certain campaign difficulties are on normal and it really feels like child's play.
You're telling me that if you went from playing BW on fastest to playing BW on normal on iccup you would have better micro/macro in a long game on normal? I don't believe you at all, I've tried playing on normal and the differences in how it plays out are super frustrating. In theory what you're saying is correct, but it feels completely different, and you still won't know how to effectively allocate the APM. You still have to relearn to use the APM if you want to use it correctly, but if you don't believe me then you can feel free to try to improve using this method then we can 1v1 and test it out.
Its funny to me that this went so quickly into an APM discussion when the OP had no mention of APM. It's not so hard to move your fingers fast enough for starcraft, any serious musician isn't too far off. But seeing a dropship on the minimap and reacting in time without letting your macro slip is a whole lot harder. Even at 10% faster speeds, split second decisions and the reactions they require will get harder.
There are different ways to train and improve. Some people like to meticulously practice in the precise conditions and Endymion i'm betting that's you. Some people like (like saiyans) need somebody or something to come along kick there ass and raise the bar. Its just different styles.
What would happen if you got used to playing 25% increased speed... then when you played Fastest like normal it would feel like playing at Normal when used to fastest. It's agonizing!
On October 07 2011 22:47 Antisocialmunky wrote: Actually, one way I thought of training was using the handicap settings to increase damage so you have to straight micro better/faster.
As other people have brought up issues like inject timings, this would just result in bad engagement choices. You'd be learning when to fight and when to run incorrectly
On October 07 2011 23:25 mordek wrote: qxc. So baller.
What would happen if you got used to playing 25% increased speed... then when you played Fastest like normal it would feel like playing at Normal when used to fastest. It's agonizing!
On October 07 2011 22:47 Antisocialmunky wrote: Actually, one way I thought of training was using the handicap settings to increase damage so you have to straight micro better/faster.
As other people have brought up issues like inject timings, this would just result in bad engagement choices. You'd be learning when to fight and when to run incorrectly
Its more for just straight micro practice and nothing else.
Loving the reference or analogy in terms of training but I would think that another way of approaching training is battling it out with multiple opponents (2 or more). I think others have stated this in this thread also.
What would happen is you would make every action, unit, building and time you have to be as efficient as you can against your opponents.
It is like 1 GM Rank against 2 Master Rank. That way you could develop unit control more and tactics to engage from the most effective angle while dealing the most damage for the least amount of losses.
It's either that or 1 GM against 1 GM but with the the person who wants to develop having a handicap of 75% maybe? It tries to maximize the effectiveness of the player in all facets of the game.
Difficult, but I think most GM Progamers are very capable of training in that condition to further develop themselves to a certain extent. But this shouldn't be the full focus of the training as it would greatly alter perceived attack timings from opponents and builds to consider.
On October 07 2011 23:25 mordek wrote: qxc. So baller.
What would happen if you got used to playing 25% increased speed... then when you played Fastest like normal it would feel like playing at Normal when used to fastest. It's agonizing!
On October 07 2011 22:47 Antisocialmunky wrote: Actually, one way I thought of training was using the handicap settings to increase damage so you have to straight micro better/faster.
As other people have brought up issues like inject timings, this would just result in bad engagement choices. You'd be learning when to fight and when to run incorrectly
Its more for just straight micro practice and nothing else.
Well I guess describe to me what you mean by straight micro practice. I feel like how/when to engage is just as important if not more than how quickly you move your marines around to keep them alive. That useful but you can just use the marine split challenge mod and add some other types of engagements too (like Morrow's Micro map).
The OP made it sound like qxc wanted to train with more difficulty on all aspects of the game at once. You might as well just have more difficult amounts/types of units to micro against but keep all the stats the same. I feel like the split second decision making you need to have to know when to retreat or chase would be broken by inaccurate unit stats. I'm sure it would help but it may hinder decision making which I think can be just as important as the handspeed to micro.
In Quake 3 times, I had two shortcuts on the desktop. Both launched the game and loaded a small map with a handful of bots and cheats enabled to be able to get full ammo and the lightning gun with a key press. One shortcut was with game speed set to 1.5 times and the other had the speed set to 2.0.
Fifteen minutes of running around and killing the bots helped a lot for those days when my reaction time and aim was seriously off. It forced me into a 100 % awake state. I only used the lightning gun, where you simply have to keep the cross-hair on the enemy as much as possible (which was pretty hard on 2.0 speed), and nothing like the rocket launcher or railgun, where the different game speed would fuck up the feel for those guns.
Perhaps an SC2 map with some kind of micro scenario would be useful. Something like having a bunch of blink stalkers and defending against waves of lings, and the need to occasionally use the minimap to go to a different part of the map. Practicing stuff like stutter stepping marines on a different speed would be bad, I guess.
The only thing that I think is close is team melee where you have two players of a level similar to yours playing against you and controlling one race/base. Boxer used to train like and said after the trainings playing other people seemed slow and easy, they'd miss things, make mistakes which two players don't.
After reading your post i would say i would have to disagree with you. Although your apm would get faster, you would learn timings and micro based on the increased speed and not on narmal game speed so it would really throw you off.
Id say if you really wanted to train like vegeta you practice against someone that is WAY better then you, and dont drink or eat anything while you train! lol
This may seem counter-intuitive at first but I would suggest that the exact opposite would be more beneficial: Train on slower speeds.
For instance, this is how you may train with a musical instrument. Slowing things down allows you to do everything properly. Then all you have to do is do it faster.
The analogous situstion would be microing a major battle. If it's over too fast you don't really have time to internalize all the things you need to do and there is little or no way to improve that in an orderly fashion. But do it all on slower speed and you brain learns to do it on autopilot, then all you have to do is do it faster. For this though it usually helps to push yourself to do it faster than what is actually needed.
I loved DBZ. It's great because all the characters trained to do stuff super-fast: but then during the fights they would stare panting and taunting each other for like 20 minutes before 20s of action.
The problem is you're applying what you've seen work in an anime and assume it would work for real life. In fact, if it were possible for someone to train at 50x earth's gravity, they would most likely move much slower once they were on earth for the simple fact that their body's neuromuscular system is used to something completely different.
You ever seen professional baseball players swing a heavier bat before they get up to the plate? That actually trains them to move their normal bat slower, despite feeling a lighter feeling with their bat.
What this means exactly is if you want to get faster, you have to play with the intent to be faster.
Wouldnt playing with a handicap be a lot eaiser. Instead unatruallly speeding up the game playing with a handicap would force you to have a super refined build and make it necessary for amazing micro just to win battles.
Although im sure there would be problmes with this as well.
There's multitasking maps, they help you practice your multitasking at same game speed. You have to move your probe while you control your base against incoming attacks etc. If you don't micro the probe you die.
On October 07 2011 17:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: + Show Spoiler +
I think your idea might be connected to the origins of SC and BW being played faster from "normal" to "fastest" settings, but I'm not very knowledgeable in that area.
I am however, under the impression that the proper equivalent of the idea you're trying to propose would be something more akin to the "team melee" option. If I recall correctly, some BW progamers would train to combat Flash's unparalleled multitasking abilities by using team melee and having 2 progamers take control of 1 Terran increasing the difficulty of their training.
The same idea carries over in SC2 in that you want to be training against opponents that can do more within the standard competitive time frame (e.g. "faster" setting) and not play against an opponent that doesn't do anything more, but that time simply moves faster. The difference could be demonstrated in a player gaining more training benefit from playing Korean ladder players who seemingly have "more stuff" and "better control" than their AM counter-parts. If this player would have adopted your idea, then he would simply be playing the same AM ladder players who have "less stuff" and "less control" but everything would just be abbreviated and he would still not be able to handle the Korean players.
Being that SC2 is less mechanically demanding than BW, weighted training could take a bigger emphasis on preparation and decision making rather than pure mechanics. For example, instead of focusing on APM, focusing on unit control (e.g. similar to unit tester maps we currently have, but instead have "modified tournament maps" where a player could start with X number of Y units and play out a common scenario over and over again like holding off/executing a cheese, etc. OR even load the same mid/late-game scenario with different units to see what a good unit match-up/potential timing could be).
If I'm not mistaken, players like Flash spent periods in their careers where they played less games than their counter-parts and focused more on thinking through situations so their thought process and decision making would be refined along with their mechanics. It goes without saying though that, "less" in this case is strictly a relative thing. Like the history of the human race is a very short period of time relative to the existence of the universe, sort of relative thing.
I think this post hit on an interesting way to implement this "harder than a real game" training. Playing against an opponent controlled by two (or more!) people would be very good for improving your multitasking in real game situations. It would be really easy to make a custom map of this too, given that you can already give allies control.
It's cool to learn that people actually did this in BW to emulate a game against Flash too!
what if you play double. like you start with 2 bases or even play a 1v1 with yourself from both sides. wouldn't that be easier to implement and have a similar effect ?
All of the negative theory crafting in this thread is a poor approach to a potentially awesome idea. Learn to embrace the madness my friends. You never know until you try. Go go SC2Mapster for that WoW style game, as well.
While comparing SC2 to DBZ may be nostalgic and alluring, it is the completely wrong attitude to have towards practice and improvement. For example, a "DBZ Training Method" may make our hands faster through hand-muscle training, but it won't make us into better players. Without a proper mechanical foundation to build upon, we may find ourselves macro'ing quickly, but also very badly. Essentially, Qxc's post confuses training raw strength with training muscle memory.
I may not be a professional SC2 player, but I have nearly two decades of experience in piano and music education. I believe that skills from practicing musical instruments (dexterity, muscle memory, etc.) are much more applicable to SC2 training than say power lifting. As such, I believe we can devise a much better training method by learning from music education, which has been tested and proven over hundreds of years.
When I train to have better mechanics, I am in essence training to have better muscle memory. I want to be able to execute commands on a keyboard without thinking. When I want to inject larvae on three hatcheries, I don't want to think about every key I press. Instead, I want to think "inject", while my hands automatically execute my macro commands.
So how do we train muscle memory? By understanding how a musician approaches a new piece, we can better understand how we can learn to approach learning macro mechanics. For example, when I approach a new piece of music, these are the steps I take:
1) Break up the piece into smaller, simpler sections. 2) Practice each section slowly with an emphasis on proper technique and efficiency. 3) Put all the smaller sections together at a slow tempo. 4) Gradually bring the piece up to proper speed. 5) Polish the finished product.
As you see, learning muscle memory is vastly different than your typical strength training. In fact, if you were to tell any respectable pianist that you get better by playing as fast as possible, you would be the laughing stock of the music world. While "DBZ Training" may be applicable to raw strength training, it is completely counter-productive in improving your mechanics.
So to approach a new build or to learn a new mechanic, we shouldn't try to play as fast as possible. We should take the same approach that a musician does - break down the mechanics and slowly build upon them. If you approach all your builds like this, you'll find yourself with a mechanical fluidity that far surpasses anything you can learn from grinding the ladder.
Perhaps qxc may feel that his mechanics are polished already and that he needs speed training to further improve his game. I do not believe that holds true for the majority of us. Do you think you play as mechanically efficient as Flash or Jaedong? If not, speed training isn't for you.
It would definitely increase beginners and less advanced players. People with high apm (150-200) already will not benefit nearly as much from doing this. New players, however, will definitely be forced to learn how to play fast because the speed has, obviously, been increased. The timings and all that mumbo jumbo people are trying to say would be detrimental to your play are easily learned and are placed in your subconscious when you begin to play many, many, games.
This speed would also give new players the speed to think faster and move faster to accomplish goals that would seem out of reach in standard sc2.
In theory it's a great idea, but the truth is that most players don't even give themselves 100% training on fastest speed(see the latest sotg discussion with WhiteRa about 'lazy foreigners').
I think the more practical approach is to, like WhiteRa stated, just be accustomed to play more. Be it 10 games in a row 4 times a day or whatever schedule you want to set for yourself. The truth is that you just need to build more endurance in general if you want to be competing with the rest who do the same.
Not everyone has the ability to play 40 games a day every day, but you can train so you're able to do that. Note that I'm not implying that foreigner sc players are lazy, but they might not be accustomed to play as much as their Korean counterparts.
On October 08 2011 03:31 YourMom wrote: what if you play double. like you start with 2 bases or even play a 1v1 with yourself from both sides. wouldn't that be easier to implement and have a similar effect ?
This was a very intresting comment. In a lot of other games this has proven to be effective(mahjong, go, poker, etc..). Even doing this exercise on normal(as compared to fastest) speed I think would have a lot of merit. Not only does it allow you to improve your multitasking, but it trains you to actually see certain timings and situations more clearly.
People could also just wear 15 pound wrist watches-- or some sort of weight band around their wrists, arms, or even hands (fingerless gloves, perhaps)?
Or, to improve accuracy, play StarCraft 2 with mittens on.
I can see QXC's point and I sorta see what Hapahauli comes from, being a musician myself.
I feel like this would help to help with muscle memory regarding like openings until maybe the 10 minute mark.
I play ladder games to work on mechanics and openings and build orders.
Sometimes if I learn new build I just want to do the opening over and over again until I'm comfortable with just doing it without having to go through the mental checklist, thinking if I forgot something, so I may want this for solo BO testing so a 10 minute game time opening may be done in 6/7 minutes instead of 8/9 minutes at faster speed.
A difference between music and starcraft is that it's pretty well understood what is the "best" mechanics for each musical instrument, so slow practice can aim to execute those mechanics perfectly. That seems less true of starcraft.
On October 08 2011 05:40 blueblimp wrote: A difference between music and starcraft is that it's pretty well understood what is the "best" mechanics for each musical instrument, so slow practice can aim to execute those mechanics perfectly. That seems less true of starcraft.
I completely disagree. I think it that the proper way to use a keyboard is pretty well established. It is equally well established what buttons you need to press to macro in Starcraft.
It'll prolly get you to use different hotkeys more often and possibly help with macro.
But I have doubts on micro. Micro has a lot on timing. So if you speed things up, you will just get accustomed to the micro timing on that speed setting and do bad on regular speed.
On October 08 2011 05:40 blueblimp wrote: A difference between music and starcraft is that it's pretty well understood what is the "best" mechanics for each musical instrument, so slow practice can aim to execute those mechanics perfectly. That seems less true of starcraft.
I completely disagree. I think it that the proper way to use a keyboard is pretty well established. It is equally well established what buttons you need to press to macro in Starcraft.
If this were true wouldn't every progamer have the same key binds? I doubt they have, not even close.
I'm for it, can we please not discuss 'perfection'? Those who play even a single game to perfection are immortalized in that moment, but for the rest of time we need to have professionals who only be amazingly. There isn't a player out there who wouldn't be better with a faster game sense... And even if someone managed to contrive a scenario that did dispute this, make the mod anyway! QXC wants to play it and that should be enough motivation.
On October 08 2011 05:40 blueblimp wrote: A difference between music and starcraft is that it's pretty well understood what is the "best" mechanics for each musical instrument, so slow practice can aim to execute those mechanics perfectly. That seems less true of starcraft.
I completely disagree. I think it that the proper way to use a keyboard is pretty well established. It is equally well established what buttons you need to press to macro in Starcraft.
If this were true wouldn't every progamer have the same key binds? I doubt they have, not even close.
I'm not making any claims about what key-binds one should use, rather, I'm simply suggesting practice methods. Plus, it is well established for any individual player what their individual key-bind is, and therefore, what they should practice. I simply make suggestions on how they should practice.
On October 08 2011 05:40 blueblimp wrote: A difference between music and starcraft is that it's pretty well understood what is the "best" mechanics for each musical instrument, so slow practice can aim to execute those mechanics perfectly. That seems less true of starcraft.
I completely disagree. I think it that the proper way to use a keyboard is pretty well established. It is equally well established what buttons you need to press to macro in Starcraft.
If this were true wouldn't every progamer have the same key binds? I doubt they have, not even close.
I'm not making any claims about what key-binds one should use, rather, I'm simply suggesting practice methods. Plus, it is well established for any individual player what their individual key-bind is, and therefore, what they should practice. I simply make suggestions on how they should practice.
That's fair. I really like the analogy to music practice, it's just that... for example, in brood war, a lot of players recommend that Protoss build probes with 0p9p, but I think I've read that Bisu does it with 4p f3-p f4-p. That's a pretty big difference, and it'd be a strange use of time to get perfect at one method when the other method is better.
I think having it faster in the lategame AFTER doing your cookie-cutter build might be good (for the obvious macro reasons) - however, when you're actually doing your build, especially if it's precise, switching back between real game times and sped-up times might be a bitch.
I like the idea of this. I have to agree with the majority of people that a speed increase could be a little detrimental. But the only way to be sure is to try it for a few weeks. If it did go wrong, Im sure it will only take a few days to get back to the normal pace of the game.
If the speed increase was a negative, maybe you could try some kind of multitasking map where you get scored on your reaction time, micro and macro. The whole time there would be lots of events going off and you had to manage them.
OMG if you or someone can make such a map, I would love your forever and would definitely use it for training! A suggest I have, if I may, if it's possible to add something like that to maps, maybe add in the same speed % option to the multitask trainer map, I've been using that a lot lately when trying to get back into SC2 after a month or so break due to being sick.
I agree with this and i eould do this if i was a pro. In a game of split second decision making, why not practice under harder conditions so real conditions seem smooth. But you would need an entire team to do that. Imagine IMMVP being comfortable at 30% extra game speed so his multitsking is even BETTER at normal speed.
This is somewhat (big emphasis on somewhat) similar to how BoxeR would train in BW (at least in the early years) in that he puts himself at a great disadvantage so he can be better when he goes back to a normal game.
BoxeR would play 1v2's with top level players, and of course, get owned every single game. But when it came to the real 1v1, it was relieving, because he didn't have to worry about one player attacking fast and another one expanding and going economical. He only had to worry about one of them.
I'm really itching to try something like this myself (the boxer thing and the Vegeta thing ^^)
Maybe we'll just try to practice SC2 in 400x earth's gravity.
On October 08 2011 03:48 Hapahauli wrote: While comparing SC2 to DBZ may be nostalgic and alluring, it is the completely wrong attitude to have towards practice and improvement. For example, a "DBZ Training Method" may make our hands faster through hand-muscle training, but it won't make us into better players. Without a proper mechanical foundation to build upon, we may find ourselves macro'ing quickly, but also very badly. Essentially, Qxc's post confuses training raw strength with training muscle memory.
I may not be a professional SC2 player, but I have nearly two decades of experience in piano and music education. I believe that skills from practicing musical instruments (dexterity, muscle memory, etc.) are much more applicable to SC2 training than say power lifting. As such, I believe we can devise a much better training method by learning from music education, which has been tested and proven over hundreds of years.
When I train to have better mechanics, I am in essence training to have better muscle memory. I want to be able to execute commands on a keyboard without thinking. When I want to inject larvae on three hatcheries, I don't want to think about every key I press. Instead, I want to think "inject", while my hands automatically execute my macro commands.
So how do we train muscle memory? By understanding how a musician approaches a new piece, we can better understand how we can learn to approach learning macro mechanics. For example, when I approach a new piece of music, these are the steps I take:
1) Break up the piece into smaller, simpler sections. 2) Practice each section slowly with an emphasis on proper technique and efficiency. 3) Put all the smaller sections together at a slow tempo. 4) Gradually bring the piece up to proper speed. 5) Polish the finished product.
As you see, learning muscle memory is vastly different than your typical strength training. In fact, if you were to tell any respectable pianist that you get better by playing as fast as possible, you would be the laughing stock of the music world. While "DBZ Training" may be applicable to raw strength training, it is completely counter-productive in improving your mechanics.
So to approach a new build or to learn a new mechanic, we shouldn't try to play as fast as possible. We should take the same approach that a musician does - break down the mechanics and slowly build upon them. If you approach all your builds like this, you'll find yourself with a mechanical fluidity that far surpasses anything you can learn from grinding the ladder.
Perhaps qxc may feel that his mechanics are polished already and that he needs speed training to further improve his game. I do not believe that holds true for the majority of us. Do you think you play as mechanically efficient as Flash or Jaedong? If not, speed training isn't for you.
tl;dr Practice slowly damnit.
I'm not sure the musical instrument analogy is entirely accurate since it isn't mechanics that limit a players speed (in general) but multitasking. My hands are more than capable of moving at 300apm (typing 90wpm is probably 300 - 500apm), but since my brain can't think that fast I can't make use of that speed.
An analogy to a musical instrument would be that, on drums, my hands are easily capable of playing crotchets at 420bpm, but I couldn't play septuplets at 60bpm because my brain doesn't know how to separate a quarter note into 7. I have the mechanical skill, but my brain is preventing me from executing it properly.
I think the only way to test whether it works is to try it. Although I would suggest increasing speed by smaller increments, like 5 - 10%.
I'm pretty sure that this was mentioned a long time ago in a forum far far away (BW) and that it looked nice, but didn't actually work and that regular practice was better.
FIRST BEST OF THREE OF THE BEST OF THREE : THIS ONE IS TOTALLY NORMAL.
SECOND BEST OF THREE OF THE BEST OF THREE : WINNER RECIEVES A HANDICAP OF 75% UNIT HEALTH.
THIRD BEST OF THREE OF THE BEST OF THREE : GAME IS PLAYED AT EQUIVALENT TO 2X REPLAY WATCHIN' SPEED WITH ALL UNIT HEALTH AT 75%.
LET THE BEST PLAYER TRY HARDER.
(I know all caps is a bad idea, but when the thread is making a comparison to a show where from what I understand people will charge lasers while shouting as loud as they can for upwards of nine thousand episodes, it seemed appropriate)
(Also I don't think this linear logic necessarily works all the time, as I can see getting used to marines dying in 4 hits instead of 3, or getting used to injects taking 14 seconds instead of 30something could have dire neagive consequences in the long-term... Increasing the game speed doesn't make everything linearily easier or more difficult, it'd make certain things harder and certain things easier.
THAT SAID as proof of concept you could just play a game on LUL WTF SLOW and marvel at how you never ever have over 400 minerals or 200 gas and banelings are rendered fully ineffective)
On October 07 2011 23:25 mordek wrote: qxc. So baller.
What would happen if you got used to playing 25% increased speed... then when you played Fastest like normal it would feel like playing at Normal when used to fastest. It's agonizing!
On October 07 2011 22:47 Antisocialmunky wrote: Actually, one way I thought of training was using the handicap settings to increase damage so you have to straight micro better/faster.
As other people have brought up issues like inject timings, this would just result in bad engagement choices. You'd be learning when to fight and when to run incorrectly
Its more for just straight micro practice and nothing else.
Well I guess describe to me what you mean by straight micro practice. I feel like how/when to engage is just as important if not more than how quickly you move your marines around to keep them alive. That useful but you can just use the marine split challenge mod and add some other types of engagements too (like Morrow's Micro map).
The OP made it sound like qxc wanted to train with more difficulty on all aspects of the game at once. You might as well just have more difficult amounts/types of units to micro against but keep all the stats the same. I feel like the split second decision making you need to have to know when to retreat or chase would be broken by inaccurate unit stats. I'm sure it would help but it may hinder decision making which I think can be just as important as the handspeed to micro.
That is true but partially I was thinking about setting a slight handicap (90% hp?) for the trainee so they can work on reaction time and precision control. Just a thought. If you were just a slight bit faster, you can avoid a good amount of damage. etc etc. But that's just my weakness and an idea I was kicking around.
On October 08 2011 03:48 Hapahauli wrote: While comparing SC2 to DBZ may be nostalgic and alluring, it is the completely wrong attitude to have towards practice and improvement. For example, a "DBZ Training Method" may make our hands faster through hand-muscle training, but it won't make us into better players. Without a proper mechanical foundation to build upon, we may find ourselves macro'ing quickly, but also very badly. Essentially, Qxc's post confuses training raw strength with training muscle memory.
I may not be a professional SC2 player, but I have nearly two decades of experience in piano and music education. I believe that skills from practicing musical instruments (dexterity, muscle memory, etc.) are much more applicable to SC2 training than say power lifting. As such, I believe we can devise a much better training method by learning from music education, which has been tested and proven over hundreds of years.
When I train to have better mechanics, I am in essence training to have better muscle memory. I want to be able to execute commands on a keyboard without thinking. When I want to inject larvae on three hatcheries, I don't want to think about every key I press. Instead, I want to think "inject", while my hands automatically execute my macro commands.
So how do we train muscle memory? By understanding how a musician approaches a new piece, we can better understand how we can learn to approach learning macro mechanics. For example, when I approach a new piece of music, these are the steps I take:
1) Break up the piece into smaller, simpler sections. 2) Practice each section slowly with an emphasis on proper technique and efficiency. 3) Put all the smaller sections together at a slow tempo. 4) Gradually bring the piece up to proper speed. 5) Polish the finished product.
As you see, learning muscle memory is vastly different than your typical strength training. In fact, if you were to tell any respectable pianist that you get better by playing as fast as possible, you would be the laughing stock of the music world. While "DBZ Training" may be applicable to raw strength training, it is completely counter-productive in improving your mechanics.
So to approach a new build or to learn a new mechanic, we shouldn't try to play as fast as possible. We should take the same approach that a musician does - break down the mechanics and slowly build upon them. If you approach all your builds like this, you'll find yourself with a mechanical fluidity that far surpasses anything you can learn from grinding the ladder.
Perhaps qxc may feel that his mechanics are polished already and that he needs speed training to further improve his game. I do not believe that holds true for the majority of us. Do you think you play as mechanically efficient as Flash or Jaedong? If not, speed training isn't for you.
tl;dr Practice slowly damnit.
As a Jazz musician who spends 8-10+ hours a day playing and practising I think your incorrect in a few of your points. Your view of practise seems almost classical in the sense that you are assuming everything is laid out for you on paper. I prefer to view this situation from a more jazz perspective because Starcraft 2 really is improvising over a set of rules, and reacting to the unforeseeable, which is what Jazz is.
Now I don't think I've ever been on a gig where someone has called a tune at 400 BPM (beats per minute) but I know for a fact that 90% commonly accepted serious jazz musicians can play everything that fast. The reason we practise that fast is because it builds dexterity, and pushes the limits of what we can play. I practise playing as fast as I can every day for around half an hour, and I've steadily been able to increase how fast I can play. Now most songs I play at a show or gig are half or even less then half of the fastest speed I can play BUT because I'm improvising, the music might call for a fast passage or line and instead of being limited by technique and not playing it I can nail it.
I think from a classical perspective scales are a great example of this. I would say the goal of playing scales in music is to play them as fast as possible without sacrificing technique, accuracy, and rhythm. When I am sight reading classical piano and I see long sixteenth or thirty-second note lines I give thanks I can play all my scales at 250+BMP.
In Starcraft generally things follow a set tempo, however the game might (and will) call for points where you need APM to be able to do everything you want to. Steadily practising at faster speeds for a little bit every day will increase the APM available when needed.
I think what a lot of people are missing is that QXC isn't suggesting that you ramp up the speed quickly and play sloppy, rather you ramp up the speed that you can play at gradually to build technique, dexterity, and not be limited when speed is called for.
Id also like to note that those 5 steps you listed are a core part of how I practise, and how I teach others to practise. But I think if you asked any respectable pianist if gradually practising technique faster is a good way to improve ones playing, the last thing they would do is laugh at you. And this is in essence exactly what QXC is suggesting.
On October 07 2011 17:11 GertHeart wrote: This reminds me of when I trained for DDR first then started to play ITG(In The Groove) DDR I was able to be able to pass songs on hard by day 3, though it was a 7 step expert song, I was able to pass it. By the time I was done training and got there I fell sick for 7 days straight and was coughing up blood, after I got better though I was much healthier, if you exercise too much and surpass your limits a lot, your body can't protect itself from infection or germs of any sort very well.
Later on I tried to do ITG, which in comparison to DDR is incredibly hard. DDR is for babies when compares to ITG.
Itg: Piece of Poetry, harder than any and all songs combined in DDR.(This isn't even the hardest thing in ITG, I came close to passing this myself 10 steps away.)
I'm on the ropes on the ITG vs DDR thing. DDR is harder to time because the Marvelous window is much more tigher than ITG's Fantastic window. The only reason it feels easier to ITG players is mainly two things: Custom ITG stepcharts are patterned to the point that takes less energy to perform (ie no crazy-ass 16th-crossovers), and combined with a looser timing window, It's more eye candy to the people watching because all they see is a bunch of 16th arrows.
DDR is still no means harder than ITG, is that they don't have "Oni" charts for all of their songs, but their "hard" stepcharts are more technical. Instead of having the same old patterns with just faster speed, it incorporates crossovers and other "gimmicks" that makes custom ITG charts different than DDR charts.
The hardest song you posted was the hardest song in its series. The hardest song in DDR (as of this writing) is Valkyrie Dimension (first-ever 19-footer in its franchise):
Highest recorded so far is around 92%, so consider songs like these compared to songs that just bombard you with easy-hitting 16th notes at a fast bpm, then compared to songs in DDR in which makes you think rather than just stomping on arrows. The video shows how he used modifiers on the go to make the reading easier.
So if you still complain that DDR is easier than ITG, they're listening.
I personally think this is a terrible idea. From a ton of past experience on playing a custom bw game, Diplomacy 7.7. When you would go from the normal game play speed to a modified faster one the results became terrible. Everything about your game play never would catch up and instead of being able to do multiple things at once on regular speed your actions only became dedicated to trying to only be able to do a few. And then once you took your game play back to normal level you would not be able to adjust. (As weird as that sounds.) Your game play would actually become worse.
Could this work? Perhaps... I am interested to see what transpires.
the timings in the game would not scale linearly with the increase in game speed. This is perhaps one of the limited ways to train reflexes but it shouldn't be claimed to be more than that.
I agree with the concept but I'm not sure if the method is the best. Instead of increasing speed, maybe with other handicaps? Changing the speed changes a lot of timings, which is something very important that people "memorize" and will be very different in actual play.
It'd have to be something that makes the game harder to play, but not too different.
I used to practice BW using a tool called "cheat engine" to double game speed. While this tool is obviously not useful for general game practice, it does increase handspeed quite a bit. Going back to regular play after using x2 was like playing on slow speed, it was just so much easier.
QXC, Like. A. Boss. but seriously i think a good way to do this would be using the Green Tea AI and the Coach system that was implemented on this forum if you type coach into custom games you should find it as the first hit. That is the closest thing i can think of.
I'm pretty sure that what qxc is saying is that if you dedicate 2 weeks to trying really hard not to cut corners at, say, 2x the speed of the normal game, even if you do actually end up cutting corners, you'll still come back faster as long as you know what you have to be doing at any given moment to play perfectly. It creates a heightened awareness of the game state even if it's completely unfeasible that you play well at that speed. It's all about setting yourself to a higher standard. I'd be interested in this experiment.
Lol at all the dancing game talk. The reason the itg skillset scales over so well to ddr (pre supernova , lol what a bunch of dumb charts from there on) is because it improves the ENTIRE ddr skill set, not just a single skill.
The problem with qxc's idea is that it is essentially only focusing on one skill set, speed, and neglecting a lot of other skill sets necessary for sc2, mainly being game sense and timings. I could see this idea being beneficial, but if you could incorporate improvements in things like game sense at this higher speed that would translate to a better game sense at fastest settings, that would be much more effective. I'd love to give this a try and see how quickly it can improve my multi tasking though.
On another note, piece of poetry isn't exactly a difficult song. When I quit playing ITG I had something like a ~96 on piece of poetry and that was a considered a pretty mediocre score. Also, Valkyrie Dimension should not be taken as a serious chart, it just doesn't make sense.
This could really work, not for timings but for multitasking, apm and ease of mind to stay calm whatever happens when you play "normal" speed because everything will feel slower which make you think you have more time to react.
I think this is a good idea. I've been practicing speedrunning the game Super Metroid lately, and one day I decided to play through the game on 150% speed. When I went back to the normal speed all the tricks seemed so easy to pull off all of a sudden.
In my opinion, when you're right up there at the top things such as playing with one hand, or having 600 apm compared to 400 apm might just give you that extra boost you need to be the best of the best. I know it sounds absurd, but who knows when this could help? You might realise in some situations, not using your mouse is better for micro. In the end, if you just practice playing normally for 8 hours a day then you won't be different from everyone else. Set yourself under different conditions, be a pioneer, and you may just excel in ways unknown to others.
On October 07 2011 16:14 DisaFear wrote: How about you play one-handed qxc? And then get good at it... And then, you use two hands! And then you are super-fast
Doesn't make sense, but whatevs 5/5
Comparisons like this one and a few others are poor. A more suitable example is for example MMA that I watch. Fighters there will fight bigger, faster or stronger guys or w/e in training then what they will hit in their own division. If you have cardio for 4 rounds then 3 rounds get simpler.
You do however need some practice to channel this properly when it matters but it's not so hard because there's a shit load of stuff to do in this game. A banshee for example has the potential to perform very well for every bit of extra attention spent.
On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly.
Not if you are playing against an AI that plays perfectly (like the best pro gamers would at 100% speed) at 150% speed.
On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.
I can't begin to explain how wrong this is.
thanks for the contribution then?
You hadn't elaborated on your post; your initial statement is extremely misleading: he isn't going to be making shortcuts, he's going to be increasing his APM but have no ability to apply it in a standard game, thus making it less useful (in my opinion) than normal practice.
It's misleading because I don't make the assumption that QXC will reach the "600" apm. If he did, he wouldn't be cutting corners, but anything sub "equilibrium" apm at +50% speed isn't efficient, so he would have to be cutting corners to play near the same level (the same way a D+ has to cut corners to get to the late game where as an A player doesn't have to because they can correctly allocate the full amount of apm [400] where the D+ player has to allocate an insufficient amount of APM [200] so they can't possibly play a perfect game).
Isn't that the point though..? Isn't it supposed to be too fast for you to handle so you need to start trying to get faster and faster?
How bout you slow down the game and learn to execute a build and to respond to enemy builds perfectly. Then rise the speed gradually while trying not to cut corners to the fastest speed.
Vegeta training in heavier gravity is not equivalent to playing SC2 at a faster speed. To get better you just need to practice with the best players and having a coach that would help point out mistakes that you might miss on your own would also be really helpful. Playing faster would make you throw off your timings completely and would be more detrimental than helpful.
I don't know why everything thinks the equivalent of 400G training in Starcraft would be increasing game speed, as the actual equivalent would simply be playing Starcraft in 400G.
Think about it, your fingers would weigh 400x, so they would move at 1/400 of their current speed (Or not at all, since in reality at 400G you would instantly turn into a puddle on the ground lol)
Your fingers would slowly learn to get used to the additional effort required to push the buttons. They would get faster, faster, and faster until they were up to their original speed at 1G.
Then, when the training has completed and you return to the original gravity, you would become the ultimate Starcraft player:
There definitely is a map like this for sc2. I basically works like he said by making units move faster build faster etc. I think it may almost make sense when I played it my apm was like 160. My normal apm is about 90-100, yes I know apm does not matter whatever but it forced me to go faster and both were played on fastest setting. Map name is is like 10x speed or something, I only played at 6x. Macro is not incredibly difficult but micro is basically impossible. Will try to get replay.
Your theory intrigues me QXC and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
I think this would help out the top tier only in reaction times and some multitasking.
For us lower leaguers, it would help greatly in that regard, so long as your macro doesn't suffer for it. It would emphasize map awareness and LOOKING at the minimap.
Why not try and play two games at once? By being at the same speed, you wouldn't mess up your sense of timing, but you'd have to click a lot faster and multitask twice as much. When you move back to normal 1v1 you'd have much more attention/better multitasking ability.
there is a map like this, at least published on EU server. search for "speed", and you'll see map named "1.5x speed | xel'naga caverns". everything is just as qxc described, but there is a bug -> buildings finish building with only ~75% of max hp, and stay that way. other than that everything works fine.
I dont think playing at a faster game speed is the way to go. Gravity training lowered your speed and agility and by training, you become "stronger" in normal conditions
So...I think the equivalent of this would be playing in a super cold room. Since this lowers your finger speed, and thus playing at room temperature, you would be playing at godspeed....?
On October 09 2011 01:45 Geovu wrote: I don't know why everything thinks the equivalent of 400G training in Starcraft would be increasing game speed, as the actual equivalent would simply be playing Starcraft in 400G.
Think about it, your fingers would weigh 400x, so they would move at 1/400 of their current speed (Or not at all, since in reality at 400G you would instantly turn into a puddle on the ground lol)
Your fingers would slowly learn to get used to the additional effort required to push the buttons. They would get faster, faster, and faster until they were up to their original speed at 1G.
Then, when the training has completed and you return to the original gravity, you would become the ultimate Starcraft player:
Yes please. I was thinking the same thing before. When I played this free FPS, I would train with my team on faster speeds and it helped out a lot. Increased reaction times and stuff like that.
#1 Take away management and UI benefits while you play. For instance don't use rally points on combat units while you practice. Or don't use unit hotkeys while your training.
#2 Make your mind also focus on something not starcraft related while training. Anything simple that you can do, like having to remember a sequence of numbers and then keep adding to the numbers as the game goes on. Or do something where you have to talk constantly about something not starcraft related while training.
I think that maybe doing this for micro, starting from a slower speed and building up to maybe 2x would be extremely effective. But doing it through a game would really screw up your build timings, and things that rely on overall timing especially larva injects/warpins.
I doubt that it will be that simple, but it's definitely worth a shot GL and HF. And don't forget to scream for a few hours between sessions.
EDIT: Two things I see fucking with this are: Muscle memory, since a lot of stuff is SC2 is your fingers doing stuff with out real conscious thought and the WTF is this bullshit? factor.
I just tried the 1.5x speed xelnaga map on EU, it's actually pretty cool except that the previously mentioned bug with buildings starting at 75% HP also applies to warped in protoss units :|
On October 09 2011 14:09 Underated wrote: couple ideas on how to do this in starcraft.
#1 Take away management and UI benefits while you play. For instance don't use rally points on combat units while you practice. Or don't use unit hotkeys while your training.
#2 Make your mind also focus on something not starcraft related while training. Anything simple that you can do, like having to remember a sequence of numbers and then keep adding to the numbers as the game goes on. Or do something where you have to talk constantly about something not starcraft related while training.
that seems rather bad. i would do it the other way around. only use hotkey to move around the map and turn off music, so that you have to look at your minimap.
I made a map like this long time ago... its called Sc2 Haste on eu though it applies old version and firebat is in it... You gather double the amount of resourses and build twice as fast.. no unit changes
Replying to the sentiments on the first page about how someone wouldn't know how to use their new APM with a simply sped-up game:
A half-baked proposal: Instead of speeding up the game, apply actions to the game slowly (say, limited to 60 APM), queuing up any excess actions.
I think what this does is that it makes it a trainer for Effective APM. As you get more efficient, your brain gets more time to strategize, and your fingers get more actions for better micro. It takes care of the problem of 'how do I learn how to use my new APM', since it allows your brain the standard amount of "real" time to think and utilize the newly gained spare EAPM.
I also think this would be something complementary to the original idea, rather than a replacement. It's more aimed towards those still learning to play SC2 faster in their head than in their fingers, instead of those that already have things the other way around. (I can see why simply speeding up the game would be better for those people whose bottleneck is literally their finger speed.)
Somebody suggested a method of using some client-side hacks to change the speed of the game. This obviously won't work on a real ladder game since your client's packets will immediately desync, but for the hyperbolic chamber effect, this was used by at least a few to get better in BW.
Sorry for waiting until the 11th page to post this, since it most likely won't be read.
What about the time bw air force team practiced team melee with 3 pro player controlling zerg at once just to prepare for jaedong ? It was on regular speed, yet it was extremely difficult.
I think this would help if you dont believe it jsut start a sc2 match in normal speed you'll play flawless and macro perfectly so if you're used to play at ultra high speed suddenly fastest speed would feel like you're playing in slow motion and you could du everything flawless
People will ramp up with more time. Zerg I think is ahead of the rest of the races because they are forced to with Creep Spread and Larva injection. Unlike calling down mules, if you forget, you can't just spam it later. Protoss seem to forget about chronoboost after 10 minutes into the game. How bad ass would 3 bases of Chrono constantly going be.
but who will you play against? if your opponent has just as hard a time playing at +50% speed as you then you won't have to "force" yourself to become better
but then again, i'm not a famous progamer or anything
Someone else was trying to get this idea going on a similar thread. Still think it is a great idea, to bad the first guy to post it didn't gain enough popularity.
Doubt this would help anyone. your play would be sloppy and timings would be different. Is there no reason you cant just multitask faster on the normal speed? If you just forced yourself to multitask more even if it made your overall play worse that would help you "train" that area of your game.
If you trained that way you would only be getting better at playing at a faster speed. You would have to get everything done that much faster. What you really need to do is instead of trying to do the same stuff you do now in a shorter window of time you should focus on doing more than what you already do inbetween your usual routine. more scouting more everything. I dont care how good you are there is always something extra you could do to improve your game, if the game is too slow for you right now then your are not being creative enough
@OP Cool story but it doesn't actually apply to SC2. In this game there's a speed cap that there's no point to try to exceed because it wouldn't give any advantages. The only 2 things you can improve in your gameplay is how fast you can think and react to what you see and refinement of your build orders.
Practicing with 150% speed or 50% weaker units or whatever is pointless and will only make you a weaker player since you don't need Flash's mechanics in SC2 and such training would make you less used to normal settings.
I think it would be an interesting experiment to implement this and do a study to see if it actually improves gameplay. Have half practice at "normal" speed and the other half at super speed then have them all play each other.
On a side note, I always found it funny in DBZ how they would train like this but most of the real fight was 3-4 episodes of just powering up.
it actually makes sense because it would feel like the game was moving slower so you could make more decisions and more likely correct ones. This would also obviously speed up your apm, and there i cannot see any negative affects that could come from doing this. And to the nay-sayers saying that this would make you lose timings or something else are wrong, because if the entire game was systematically speeded up than all the builds would still be the same the only difference would be timings for multiplayer games, but the only reason o do this is macro/micro so it makes perfect sense to play this if it exists or is possible to make later on
I did do something similar to this in another game and it does work, but only to an extent. It will almost certainly help people that think faster than their fingers can currently move.
The only people who I recommend it on are people that really feels that their APM is WAY too low. If you're already above 200apm, it's probably better to do old fashioned training.
The worst side effect is not the timing of your builds (which is very easily fixed, and your APM be higher in the end), it's the timing of your opponent's builds. Basically, all the timings of anything you cannot see but intuitively know will all go haywire. This is NOT something that's easily fixed, because it takes many many games to start breathing in game time.
Actually, I think it was for an FPS shooter that I did this on so I dunno how much it applies.
What if you do increase the speed let's say by 150% and then you can have a custom in-game clock multiplied increased by 150% too? That being said I have no idea how to do that in map editor :3
Sometimes i play 2v1 with lower leagues (at least 2 leagues lower)... its the same concept, you have to think about two enemies, two different strategies, a unique unit composition to face 2 different compositions.. its funny! I never win when i do this, but, sometimes i afford to resist 15-20 min, and i feel strong and proud
Hi everyone, i don't know if somebody just wrote this but... As i know u can just cut the production times in the editor /2 and increase every unit speed *2 Also the harvesting time on a mineral /2 and so on, and the map should run like the speed is *2 but i do not realy think that this will improve yourself ^^
But real beautiful thread qxc !! I loved to read it... can anybody give me the number of this episode in DBZ ?? XDDD
TIMINGS to those saying this concept would mess up a player's sense of timing: if the player's timings are based on in game events (such as certain units, tech, or upgrade completing/progress), as they probably should be, then the timing sense will remain unchanged. In fact the timing sense would improve at normal speed since the window of time where the player has to become aware and act to the timing will increase as playing speed decreases.
CONTROL Being able to individually grab and control units that are moving much faster will obviously have its benefits. The downside however may be that mouse control has a certain "feel" to it. When the game speed is returned to faster, the player may not be used to a perceptual lag induced from the units not carrying out the micro command as fast as the player is used to.
MULTITASKING Obviously this would improve. Reaction to multi-pronged attacks and mini map awareness could all benefit. This however relies on the opponent executing competent attacks that will result in skill progression. Herein lies a problem. Little use would result from fighting an AI, which means you would need a human opponent to play in this super fast game mode. Assuming a human practice partner is found, they must be competent to execute attacks and tactics in super fast speed that are equivalent to the same results at normal speed. Reacting to poorly executed strategies in a super fast game would not be very productive. It would take time for at least one of the players to become accustomed to the environment before the other player can learn useful skills.
Very interesting idea. Hopefully we will be able to try something like this.
To be really DBZ style, you need to take off your shirt when playing. To be a super saiyan, you need to sock yourself in the nipples a few times to show the bruise marks.
On October 21 2011 20:32 [Ryuzaki] wrote: Ironic that Vegeta didn't actually gain anything from the high gravity training. He didn't become a super-saiyan until he put his life at risk.
So we have to play above a lava pit to unlock our full potential? Sounds like a great concept for korean pro houses :D
I thought of this a while ago(my childhood was defined by DBZ by the way...coincidence? Think not!). Posted it here. Most of the people disagreed with me. I still think it might be fruitful.