It's been about a year since I purchased SC2. It was pretty much my first RTS ever, so of course, I struggled with the insane learning curve.
I'm very used to muscle memory type of games...My gaming background is all console, so learning how to use a keyboard for hotkeys and movement was half the challenge. I played MMOs before, but SC2 hotkeys and MMO hotkeys hardly compare.
Now, I've had a lot of coaching from friends, coworkers, random people from TL/reddit but I'm still not getting it.
My macro/micro are decent to say the least, but I'm lacking the most important thing -- I'm lacking the logic of Starcraft.
I legitimately don't know how to deal with certain situations. I can out macro an opponent, but I just throw my lead away because I'm confused and I lose track of what I'm suppose to be doing.
I lost 5 games in a row today -- 4/5 of the games were all-ins. Boo. :\
I watch my replays, but I really don't know how to analyze them. And I don't know how to handle all the pressure. It still freaks me the fuck out.
My ability to control my emotions has gotten better over the past few months, but it's still very stressful. And admittedly, I've been in much more stressful situations and I've been able to hold my cool. But SC2, I have no idea.
I guess it's because I'm lacking that core logic. I'm just going through the motions and just winning based off picking the right build and going by the book.
But I think that lack of logic is what's preventing me from climbing the ladder and getting into diamond. It's just out of reach because of these stupid mistakes. I really think that's what's slowing down my ability to improve... the fact that I barely still understand the game. But how do you even learn logic?
I read build orders and watch streams and tournaments -- but it's just not sinking in.... What should I do?
don't let the losses get you down, keep doing what you're doing. watching replays, streams, learning builds, you're doing everything right in trying to get better, takes alotta practice/time. analyze ur mistakes/losses,ask friends for tips/advice/etc.
On November 14 2011 18:30 StimiLant wrote: don't let the losses get you down, keep doing what you're doing. watching replays, streams, learning builds, you're doing everything right in trying to get better, takes alotta practice/time. analyze ur mistakes/losses,ask friends for tips/advice/etc.
Losing is discouraging, but I know it's completely part of SC2. The game wouldn't be challenging if it didn't keep matching you with tougher opponents.
Like 95% of my friends who played SC2 when it first came out, quit. And now they won't play with me because I've improved, and can beat them a good majority of the time...
I tried joining a college sc2 club, which my friend was a part of, but that ended up in tons of drama in the club and my friend ended up leaving.
It just gets a little frustrating that I still can't learn the games core mechanics. Everything is just muscle memory now -- but that only gets you so far. Especially against cheese. @_@
Just have fun with the game. Watch some pro games and see how they react in situations where you find that you're having problems. 99% of the time it's not lack of game sense that's preventing you from getting into diamond. straight, mindless macro and mechanic will get you there. My advice is to just take a step back and just play the games for the fun of it; you'll get better eventually.
I've only recently started watching my replays and really tried to study them. The biggest thing I try to learn is when I am ahead and where the game is after a big event. I try to attack around the same time and always watch the replay after and see if I am ahead, behind, or if I should have made the attack at all based on what I saw.
As for cheese I feel comfortable against most everything now. I've tried to learn what my scouting means exactly. For instance if I scout a Zerg and they are still getting gas after a pool is finished I prepare for a baneling bust. If I scout a Protoss and see they only have one gas by the time my scout dies or I leave the base I expect 4 gate. I always try to prepare for the worst.
Hey you're forgetting that this is the best part of SC2! It is designed so everyone can play people of equal skill level, so dont worry if you're not getting it just play for fun against people your own skill and you will improve, trust me
Just have fun, dont let it get you down (I dont like to say this, but its only a game )
Just keep on going for it. In my BW days, I literally threw bitch fits cause my brother would always beat me. And his response was "I play more games than u, what did u expect?"
So, just keep going for it man. You literally just got to keep laddering until your gaming senses get better and better per game.
To start to learn the logic of the game, you need to look at what the goals each player has and how each decision each player makes is related to that goal. Ultimately you want to destroy all your enemies buildings your opponent wants to destroy yours. You both know that, and you both know that it's way easier to accomplish this if you get some kind of advantage rather than to try rushing without a clear advantage.
Each decision takes a lot of risk assessment and planning. You should look at the build orders you are using and learn why they are in that order; like, why do you need to build the engineering bay so early in the build? It's because if you don't know what build your opponent is using it will still be up in time to stop any kind of cloaked unit or air unit tech rush. If you scout and don't see any such tech then you can build something else you need (more units, supply, etc) with the money at the time and build the e-bay after that. If you decide to blindly not build the e-bay then you might just straight up lose to the rush. Sometimes it just takes you not doing something a bunch of times and losing because of it to see that you need to do it. That's where the logic comes from; if I do X then I won't lose; or if I do Y then I will get an advantage; etc. A lot of things you want to learn will just come from playing a lot. You could learn otherwise but it's probably less fun >.> Mass gaming will have you improve in the long run.
First try to really understand what your build order is intended to do, and abuse what it is strong at. Recognize what it is weak against and focus on that specific aspect of defense.
Read what your opponent is likely doing by the buildings he has and at what time he is getting them. Predict how soon he will tech switch, or how quickly he can get a big army with the production he has. Know how much time you have to prepare when he moves out before he reaches your base. Consider what kind of position you need to be in for a favorable engagement.
When looking at your replays, or just plain thinking about a game you just played, try to see exactly how you lost. Not how your opponent won, but how you lost, specifically that game. When you manage to collect several of those "reasons you lost" through multiple losses, try to come up with the least amount of "extra stuff" you have to do to prevail. Work it into your build to work synergistically with what the goal of your build and/or play style is.
Extra stuff like constant scouting is a plus. Use a worker scout, if you need to, even past the first few minutes. Have a single unit in key locations on the map to see when your opponent moves out, or takes an expansion.
Depending on what army you play with, try to move it around the map, instead of just having it just chilling in your base.
Finally, take risks. You can discover stuff by simply attempting some unconventional tactics.
Probably need some repplays, but to be honest it sounds like you just need to scout more and adapt your play based on what you see rather than doing canned build orders in hope of build order countering people and outplaying them through sheer mechanics alone.
This might make me sound like a bit of a tool, and for that i'm sorry, but just watch some day9 on youtube... thats all I did to get my skill up (a long with a lot of practice)... I'm still in bronze and got the game around december last year. Day9s 'newbie tuesday' series helped me a lot! its crazy! lol. anyways, best of luck - i know your pain
I ill try to give you an advice. If you want to know "logic" and dont know where to start just break it down in smaller parts. parts as: unit counters, unit mobility, unit positioning, resource management, aggresion level, expansion timing, adaptation build orders... and there probably loads more. These are all concepts to improve on. Then just pick one and think about it, and how you could improve. And after that pick another one Bottem line is: If you dont know where to start, break your problem up in smaller pieces and systematically work from there. What could possebly also help is watch streams where players commentate on there "logic" behind decision making in game.
Maybe I have a similar situation, but the reason I started paradoxically to drop games right after I got decent macro and mechanics was because when it all become automatic, I stopped thinking about the game. Building pylons, workers, units and expos is just so automatized that I often play completely detached. It's feels like I am not even playing to win, but just to build stuff. 1base allins, cheeses and weird stuff then kill me, but I normally win if it's a boring macro game. I also think that defending is harder than doing allins (at least in my level). I had huge success with 3rax and 4gate.
Interestingly, I just played a PvZ on Shattered Temple where Z tried to 6/7pool me. The initial lings got into my base at 3:10, when I had nothing but one gateway. I was again playing in a very detached way, just to interrupt my work. Normally I would have GG'd. But a strange thing happened. I just continued to chrono the zealot and without any thinking I pylon blocked my ramp (twice actually). I won that game. The point is: maybe defending all sorts of allins and cheese can become automatic too?
Well defending all-ins is a matter of scouting and defending against them over and over, watch how pros defend them, etc. Once you know what to do its not that bad, and if you defend you can relax knowing that you are very far ahead.
In terms of game-sense, that's more theory. You need to hit the books and study starcraft, not just play it all the time. I used to be exactly the same as you in BW, crazy mechanics for my level averaging 200+ apm, peaking 300-350 (I was good at sports too), I would win games as long as I got to lategame, I didn't even need to tech I just made lots of units and micro'd them.
I stopped for a while and played SC2 and mechanics hardly mattered in comparison so it forced me to study the game a lot more. Then I started learning theory and studied the game and I've gotten 10x better since going back to BW ironically because I went about it in a much more productive way while still having good mechanics.
I think at low-mid level gameplay greedy play is best. This means that if you kill 300-ish minerals worth of units for free (or about 5 workers) then you can afford to expand. Also, most people in the mid skill level (plat-diamond-low masters) don't scout for "extra bases" that they won't expect the awkward timing of. Some pros don't even do it.
If you can learn to micro like Bisu you can start to make builds like an S-class BW player and get away with them. This means that if you can defend against over twice the value of your attacking units and barely survive, then you will really start to go far in the game, and you can even do crazy greedy tech/expand builds that come out faster simply because you don't build the extra 1/3 of your army.
To start with learn the more "advanced" hotkey controls, like Shift+# to add units to a hotkey (instead of #, ctrll+dragselect, ctrl+#) and using the Fkeys and use these advanced controls in your games until you master their use. Even if you start out a worse player for using them, it will help in the long run. It's like learning to type with 10 fingers when you're just fine with 2. At first you're slower because you are quite good with 2-4 fingers and looking at the keyboard, but when you are using 10 you can simply think commands and they will manifest much quicker.
After you learn the advanced controls I suggest playing greedily. When you reach mid-masters you will learn the timings when greedy play can be punished, and then you will know when not to be greedy 100% of the time.
For example in this video Bisu's dragoons are about 30 seconds late. This means that he can use the extra 250minerals and 100 gas needed to build the 2 dragoons to instead tech and build a Citadel, a necessary building for templar (like the Twilight Council in SC2). The Citadel would come out 30 seconds early and his dragoons were 30 seconds late. He used the zealot to deny the scout while teching crazily fast.
However, instead of building a Citadel, he used the extra 250 minerals to build a Nexus (worth 400). This put him 150 behind, but he also skipped a probe to expand earlier, which put him 100 minerals behind and an expansion ahead. Definitely worth it. And his opponent didn't even know about the Nexus because BISU MICRO TOO GOOD.
I feel that SC2 players don't skip workers as much as they could/should in the early game. If you skip one worker and use that money to get your expansion out faster, you make up the difference pretty quickly if your opponent hasn't done the same thing. That little 50 mineral advantage can turn into a huge game ending push where you have 1.25x your opponent's army at the late game (because your worker production is x2 your opponent's for a good portion of the early game, a time when economy matters a LOT because the early workers mine all game!)
Edit: More Bisu because I'm a huge fanboy and for inspiration:
I think Artosis is the best at explaining the logic of the game. My recommendation is for you to watch as many GSL games as possible. Not only do Tasteless and Artosis make the games even more fun to watch, but also they do a great job explaining the strategies and the reasons behind the strategies for the highest level players in the world.
I've been playing since release, and my climb from bronze to masters was a combination of: 1) Watching a ton of starcraft (Husky/HD, Day9, tons and tons of GSL, a bit of other tournaments) 2) Playing a ton of starcraft (at least 5 games a day)
I think if you have the muscle memory okay, but don't really understand the logic of the game, watching games with great in depth commentary (GSL or Day9 Dailies) is the way to improve your understanding of the game. It also helps to talk out strategies with other people who love starcraft.
I get the impression that the average TL-er is more of a theory-crafter than a player, and thus I expected most people in the practice partner thread to know the theory to some extent, while lacking in execution. Since you say that you are a bit the other way around, both you and your practice partner would probably benefit.
I would point you to day9, GSL etc, but you say you have already done that. A practice partner could go more in detail in your replays and help you point out at which point you could have scouted the all-in and so on. gl.
When I started playing BW 1v1, something that gave me a lot of ideas was Sun Tzu's Art of War. It can't teach you to be good, but if you take it seriously and try to employ the lessons it teaches, you will learn from experience how these things are actually applied.
As it is, right now you're just wasting your time: You're not having fun, you're not improving, you're doing the same moronic thing every game. Your mechanics probably aren't even as good as you think they are. Take a step down from your ego and stop labeling losses as 'all-ins.' If you write a loss off like that you will not learn from it. That's why you're still bad.
Or you can just keep whining about all-ins or whatever and suck forever.
I hear ya man, I was in the same boat till just recently. I've been playing for about a year on and off and lately it all of a sudden just came to me in bursts. I would scout my opponent and say "oh I need to do this" or my mind would suddenly remember that I needed to expo or tech or something. Just keep playing man, find some friends, find a clan, be active with others and ask for criticism. It really helps. Otherwise, one thing I like doing is commentating games to myself out loud while watching replays. That's always cool because you can see everyone's view and you say "HOLY SHIT HUK!!! YOU NEED THAT TEMPLAR ARCHIVES UP ASAP!!" when you see infestors and broodlords or whatever. This will help you in game when you see the same stuff you will remember that you need to get crackin'!
Either way, it's just a game and have fun with it. Starcraft 2 isn't the only important thing in the world.
Yeah, Chef's right. Definitely read the Art of War, it will help a bit. Also watch your replays and look when your opponent moves out to attack you. You may just find a trend. It's much easier in SC2 than it was in BW because of the in-game clock, so use this to your advantage.
1) Keep practicing and learn how to play to get better as opposed to playing just to win. By this I mean, say you're playing a game and because of some kind of harass you start to fall behind in your build. While some people are inclined to simply quit early a la Idra, I've found that sticking around to work on as many aspects of your game as possible is MUCh more beneficial for the low level player. For instance, I was watching Sase play and he stuck around in a game where he clearly had no chance to win. However, he stated afterwards that he needed to work on his blink micro and some other stuff and thats why he stayed. So as you can see, good players make the best use out of the time provided regardless of whether or not they are going to win. This is absolutely crucial to climb the ladder and learn the various nuances of the game.
2) Watch GSL, MLG and your favorite players whenever they stream. Ok so there are other tournaments to watch and I recommend you include them in your studies BUT I can't emphasize enough that the GSL is the pinnacle of SC2 tournament competition. I'm sure some will disagree, but if I had to only choose one major tournament to follow regularly it would be GSL hands down.
As for streaming, I've found this to be more helpful than watching any tournament regardless of how awesome it might be. Seeing what a high level player sees and watching EXACTLY how they play the game from their point of view is extremely valuable. I've learned TONS from watching my favorite Protoss players stream. Its also given me a sort of benchmark to aim for in terms of mechanical skill, decision making, and micro management.
3) Study replays or post them on TL to have them analyzed for you. As many people have pointed out, this is super important. Learning how to watch your replays and figure out what cost you the game can sometimes be difficult but I've found that it gets much easier over time and pretty soon, what with all the GSL and streaming you watch, it becomes incredibly easy to see where you went wrong in your play.
4) Get a coach and take a few lessons. I was in Gold when I decided to get lesson pack from VPTang. He showed me a powerful two base colo build along with a 3 gate pressure build that enabled me to rather handily make top 8 in Platinum. After just one lesson. It only took 10 days or so once I mastered the build timings and the micro required to hold off early pressure. The great thing about a GM/high masters level coach is that they DO understand SC2 logic and can answer the questions you have. Ask your coach as many questions as you can think of.
OK so some of my suggestions are redundant in comparison to what others have told you, but hopefully these little tidbits can help steer you in the right direction. Good luck!
Watch a replay that contains both good play and a style you want to learn. Take notes on timings, transitions, and the decision making. Copy everything. Learn what to do, and the why of it will come with experience. When you watch replays or VoDs, look for how players that play the way you want to handle situations you have trouble with. Find examples, and emulate better players to give you direction on what you can try to do.
Watch your own games, look for places where your play falls short from example games of what you're working towards. Did you forget to position your army well, engage poorly, slip in macro, forget tech, react wrong to a situation?
On November 14 2011 19:37 Theleech wrote: I've only recently started watching my replays and really tried to study them. The biggest thing I try to learn is when I am ahead and where the game is after a big event. I try to attack around the same time and always watch the replay after and see if I am ahead, behind, or if I should have made the attack at all based on what I saw.
As for cheese I feel comfortable against most everything now. I've tried to learn what my scouting means exactly. For instance if I scout a Zerg and they are still getting gas after a pool is finished I prepare for a baneling bust. If I scout a Protoss and see they only have one gas by the time my scout dies or I leave the base I expect 4 gate. I always try to prepare for the worst.
What kind of cheese are you losing to exactly?
Edit: I'm mid diamond by the way
It's usually a protoss all-in. I got warp gate prismed 4gated, some sort of 3gate stargate build. I have no idea. it was weird. I've never seen it before.
I can hold a 4gate no problem; it's just these variants that are catching me off guard.
On November 15 2011 00:18 Chef wrote: When I started playing BW 1v1, something that gave me a lot of ideas was Sun Tzu's Art of War. It can't teach you to be good, but if you take it seriously and try to employ the lessons it teaches, you will learn from experience how these things are actually applied.
As it is, right now you're just wasting your time: You're not having fun, you're not improving, you're doing the same moronic thing every game. Your mechanics probably aren't even as good as you think they are. Take a step down from your ego and stop labeling losses as 'all-ins.' If you write a loss off like that you will not learn from it. That's why you're still bad.
Or you can just keep whining about all-ins or whatever and suck forever.
My judgement on mechanics isn't my own -- it's what my higher level friends have told me. My macro/micro isn't solid, but it's decent enough. It's just the fact that I'm just going through the motions. I honestly believe I'm only in platinum because of my macro/micro alone. Not because I actually understand the game. And that's really not saying much, is it?
Honestly, in no way am I trying to be arrogant about my skills. I'm fucking platinum dude -- I have no reason to brag what so ever.
I did lose macro games, but I did lose to a bunch of all-ins. In my opinion, cutting probes at 20 and just making units all day long is considered an all-in. It's just kind of annoying when you face all-in, after all-in after all-in. I actually thank people for going a macro game with me -- because all-ins are fucking annoying. It's a free win if you can defend it, but it sucks balls when you lose to these kind of strats.
On November 14 2011 20:11 Seeker wrote: All I can say is do NOT give up.
Just keep on going for it. In my BW days, I literally threw bitch fits cause my brother would always beat me. And his response was "I play more games than u, what did u expect?"
So, just keep going for it man. You literally just got to keep laddering until your gaming senses get better and better per game.
I'm definitely not giving up. It's just really annoying. :\
I really want to get better specifically to get my boyfriend back into playing. He stopped playing because a lot of his friends quit too and he lost his really good practice partners. @_@
BTW -- thanks everyone for the input. I'm not giving up, it's just gonna take me some time to learn how to analyze what I'm doing and what my opponent is doing.
If your logic is really that bad, start by not listening to the starcraft media for a while. No more tl strategy section, no more day9, no more streams or events. I think you problem is that you're missing a fundamental concept that everyone gets and doesn't even mention in any of the above because it's so basic. My suggestion would be to play lots and lots of games and try to figure out the game on yourself. Forget the replay analysis, forget the strategies, forget the builds, and most importantly, forget your rank and league. Builds are the optimization of a tactic to help win the game. If you can't understand why something is good, don't do it. Just do what you think is good. Ultimately when you've tanked to gold league and played 300 games you'll realize what strategy is.
I started off making my own build: a 3 rax +1 stim with 1 ghost in tvp off of one base (not cheese since this was in august, the only cheese that existed was tlo's 2 gate proxie and cannon rushing). I thought that if i could scan and land an emp on the protoss ramp, i could kill all the sentry energy to stop force fields so i could run my marines and marauders up the ramp and kill everything. Cool right? This doesn't actually work if protoss spreads units or expanded early enough to have more units even against emp, but that's the indirect point. The main idea is that I didn't come to tl to ask someone why I was losing with my strat. No one said "you're one basing, if protoss holds with either of the above statements, you're dead". I figured it out myself. I slowly, over the course of about 40 tvps, that if protoss had too many units, it wouldn't matter if i got the emp off. I learned that if i missed the emp, or didn't hit enough units, I would die. Think about it. If i played 30 tvps and 33% on the ladder, that's like 100 games to learn something that seems really dumb now. 100 games was like a week and a half of play to learn that. But I went from nothing to low masters now, and I've effectively played 7 months of starcraft, which is pretty good for most standards (absolutely no playing when it's not winter break or summer break, my account has about 700 league wins).
If you're going to learn the basics, you have to be basic.
Are you using strategies you came up with yourself, or did you steal them from a pro? If you're doing a build order steal then it's easy not to fully understand the logic behind all the actions. If it's your own strategies then the problems you have understanding the game will corrupt your strategy.
I remember being in your shoes a few years ago when I started BW. I spent an entire summer learning how to learn about the game and then another 6 months learning how to look into a strategy. Now that I've been playing BW and SC2 for 2.5 years understanding the game isn't nearly as hard as developing the proper mechanics.
This is how I think about it: SC2 is a game about advantages and disadvantages. Every strategy you use will net several of each. Deviations deal with the multitude of strategies my opponents may use. It's hard to think about what you're going to do WHEN a situation arises, so instead of thinking on your feet try and have a plan going in. Here is an example of the "theory" behind my ZvT strategy: + Show Spoiler +
My ZvT strategy of choice is zergling/infestor into crackling/infestor/ultra. I first learned about it through Mrbitter's stream and TL post in Jan/Feb. Stephano recently used it to great effect in his IPL win. The rough B/O goes to the tune of: Early expand, take one gas, spend first 100 gas on ling speed, spend 2nd 100 gas on lair, take second gas and throw down two extractors. Upgrade melee and carapace. When lair finishes take remaining gas and put down an infestation pit. Research pathogen glands. Keep upgrading lings, get a third and a macro hatch, tech to hive, and start banking gas for +3/+3 and adrenal glands. Also put down ultra cavern and upgrade chitanous plating. Mass ultra and crackling. Use mobility to flank and try to deny terran map control. The rest of the game is an expansion war with fully upgraded armies. Don't forget to inject!
Theory: Zerglings are very mobile and keep map control until siege tanks and marine balls are out. I want the minimum amount of lings necessary to maximize drone production. Ideally I want three saturated bases with a fourth ready to accept drones from my depleted main. 70 drones is my goal. *This strategy is economic and tech-heavy, so it is weak to early rushes in the form I gave above. *A terran midgame attack with tanks and marines (9 minutes and above) will be met with infestors and lings. Infestors can fugal marines, volley infested terrans on top of tanks (or in marine balls to induce splash damage from siege). My upgrades should be superior and, so long as my injects are timely, I will have enough larva to reinforce an attack on my front. *In a late-game scenario I need to be abusing my mobility and attacking weak points of the terran base. *I should never attack a terran siege-line head on unless they have no more bases and I can instantly remax. *Ultras tank and lings dps
Deviations *First and foremost, I want the least amount of units possible, but until I've practiced against a strategy enough times I feel it's best to overdefend and not outright lose the game. Overdefense also leaves a bunch of leftover forces that can counterattack AND a great defense so I can make up for lost droning time. *Hellion opening requires a spine, defensive evo's, and extra queen, and a few extra lings *More than 6 Hellions, or BFH, require roach warren and a few roaches. Constant scouting will reveal these intentions *Banshees and cloaked banshees require extra queens (4-5 total since energy is usually too low for transfuse) and a couple spores at each base *1/1/1 needs extra queens and a lot of lings to defend banshee attacks/hellion drops/marine rushes simultaneously *Beware of 9 minute marine tank timing attack. This is more of an anti-mutalisk attack, so be sure to make nothing but zerglings when I see this moving out. *1 base marine/tank all-ins require three spines at the front (extended by creep tumors). These spines will keep terran busy while more forces hatch. 40-50 1/1 lings will dominate this all-in. Deny terran expansion and drone up like crazy once defended. *Mech play should be scouted. Reaction is to expand to a quick fourth and have a roach-heavy army with broodlords on the way. This is the only strategy that requires a total change of strategy Ling/infestor is better-suited for a bio-heavy army. This change isn't very different from BW where pros went three-hatch muta versus terran bio/tank and mass hydra versus tank/goliath/valkyrie/vulture. *Marauders suck against zerglings and I only ever see them in bizarre 1-base all-ins. Zergling numbers will compensate for concussive shells and, since marauders cannot mass as easily as reactor'd marines, I could have a few infestors out to bolster the defense. rops are very effective since I have little air control. Leave a small pack of lings at each base and have ovies positioned to identify drops.
Good things to know: *I have the more mobile army. If the terran army is defending the third I can send about 16 lings into the natural and kill scv's. Actions like this will either delay the terran army or send them into all-in mode. Expand or make a ton of units accordingly, but never sacrifice a huge army since it's not cost-effective. *Constant scouting will show how much they expand. Early third bases almost always means more scv's and less units (so drone up and expand myself). *Vikings will deny overlord spread, so if opponent sends them out make a spore and spine at each base and retreat overlords to safety. *4 burrowed infestors with full energy can cough up enough infested terrans to take out a planetary. It's also fun to cause tank splash damage to other tanks, marines, or scv's by dropping one of these nearby. Sometimes chain fungals on an scv line is better than infested terrans since the scv's have a chance to run away from beach balls before they hatch. *When one of my bases is under attack it is best to protect the drones. Running them away or using burrow is the best. It's a lot easier to recover the economic loss when only the hatchery needs replacing. *Most terran expansions are built elsewhere and floated to the location. Have a ling on hold position, overlord dumping creep, a burrowed ling, or all of the above to delay the expansion and act as an indicator. Ovies should be at every expansion by the late game unless cleared out by marines or vikings.
This is by no means complete, but it shows you how much thought is involved in each step of the game. All the deviations I mentioned were from personal experience.
On November 15 2011 06:56 Servius_Fulvius wrote: Are you using strategies you came up with yourself, or did you steal them from a pro? If you're doing a build order steal then it's easy not to fully understand the logic behind all the actions. If it's your own strategies then the problems you have understanding the game will corrupt your strategy.
I remember being in your shoes a few years ago when I started BW. I spent an entire summer learning how to learn about the game and then another 6 months learning how to look into a strategy. Now that I've been playing BW and SC2 for 2.5 years understanding the game isn't nearly as hard as developing the proper mechanics.
This is how I think about it: SC2 is a game about advantages and disadvantages. Every strategy you use will net several of each. Deviations deal with the multitude of strategies my opponents may use. It's hard to think about what you're going to do WHEN a situation arises, so instead of thinking on your feet try and have a plan going in. Here is an example of the "theory" behind my ZvT strategy: + Show Spoiler +
My ZvT strategy of choice is zergling/infestor into crackling/infestor/ultra. I first learned about it through Mrbitter's stream and TL post in Jan/Feb. Stephano recently used it to great effect in his IPL win. The rough B/O goes to the tune of: Early expand, take one gas, spend first 100 gas on ling speed, spend 2nd 100 gas on lair, take second gas and throw down two extractors. Upgrade melee and carapace. When lair finishes take remaining gas and put down an infestation pit. Research pathogen glands. Keep upgrading lings, get a third and a macro hatch, tech to hive, and start banking gas for +3/+3 and adrenal glands. Also put down ultra cavern and upgrade chitanous plating. Mass ultra and crackling. Use mobility to flank and try to deny terran map control. The rest of the game is an expansion war with fully upgraded armies. Don't forget to inject!
Theory: Zerglings are very mobile and keep map control until siege tanks and marine balls are out. I want the minimum amount of lings necessary to maximize drone production. Ideally I want three saturated bases with a fourth ready to accept drones from my depleted main. 70 drones is my goal. *This strategy is economic and tech-heavy, so it is weak to early rushes in the form I gave above. *A terran midgame attack with tanks and marines (9 minutes and above) will be met with infestors and lings. Infestors can fugal marines, volley infested terrans on top of tanks (or in marine balls to induce splash damage from siege). My upgrades should be superior and, so long as my injects are timely, I will have enough larva to reinforce an attack on my front. *In a late-game scenario I need to be abusing my mobility and attacking weak points of the terran base. *I should never attack a terran siege-line head on unless they have no more bases and I can instantly remax. *Ultras tank and lings dps
Deviations *First and foremost, I want the least amount of units possible, but until I've practiced against a strategy enough times I feel it's best to overdefend and not outright lose the game. Overdefense also leaves a bunch of leftover forces that can counterattack AND a great defense so I can make up for lost droning time. *Hellion opening requires a spine, defensive evo's, and extra queen, and a few extra lings *More than 6 Hellions, or BFH, require roach warren and a few roaches. Constant scouting will reveal these intentions *Banshees and cloaked banshees require extra queens (4-5 total since energy is usually too low for transfuse) and a couple spores at each base *1/1/1 needs extra queens and a lot of lings to defend banshee attacks/hellion drops/marine rushes simultaneously *Beware of 9 minute marine tank timing attack. This is more of an anti-mutalisk attack, so be sure to make nothing but zerglings when I see this moving out. *1 base marine/tank all-ins require three spines at the front (extended by creep tumors). These spines will keep terran busy while more forces hatch. 40-50 1/1 lings will dominate this all-in. Deny terran expansion and drone up like crazy once defended. *Mech play should be scouted. Reaction is to expand to a quick fourth and have a roach-heavy army with broodlords on the way. This is the only strategy that requires a total change of strategy Ling/infestor is better-suited for a bio-heavy army. This change isn't very different from BW where pros went three-hatch muta versus terran bio/tank and mass hydra versus tank/goliath/valkyrie/vulture. *Marauders suck against zerglings and I only ever see them in bizarre 1-base all-ins. Zergling numbers will compensate for concussive shells and, since marauders cannot mass as easily as reactor'd marines, I could have a few infestors out to bolster the defense. rops are very effective since I have little air control. Leave a small pack of lings at each base and have ovies positioned to identify drops.
Good things to know: *I have the more mobile army. If the terran army is defending the third I can send about 16 lings into the natural and kill scv's. Actions like this will either delay the terran army or send them into all-in mode. Expand or make a ton of units accordingly, but never sacrifice a huge army since it's not cost-effective. *Constant scouting will show how much they expand. Early third bases almost always means more scv's and less units (so drone up and expand myself). *Vikings will deny overlord spread, so if opponent sends them out make a spore and spine at each base and retreat overlords to safety. *4 burrowed infestors with full energy can cough up enough infested terrans to take out a planetary. It's also fun to cause tank splash damage to other tanks, marines, or scv's by dropping one of these nearby. Sometimes chain fungals on an scv line is better than infested terrans since the scv's have a chance to run away from beach balls before they hatch. *When one of my bases is under attack it is best to protect the drones. Running them away or using burrow is the best. It's a lot easier to recover the economic loss when only the hatchery needs replacing. *Most terran expansions are built elsewhere and floated to the location. Have a ling on hold position, overlord dumping creep, a burrowed ling, or all of the above to delay the expansion and act as an indicator. Ovies should be at every expansion by the late game unless cleared out by marines or vikings.
This is by no means complete, but it shows you how much thought is involved in each step of the game. All the deviations I mentioned were from personal experience.
Stealing from a Pro.
I'm using a variant of SelecT's FE build against protoss: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/SeleCT_2_Rax_FE_(vs._Protoss) but it's with the 2 marauder, 1 marine pressure ... I don't remember what build that's from. :\? If anyone knows the exact build, please link me. <3
Either that or I go just triple rax.
and I've been experimenting with MKP's "really a lot of hellions" (thx tastetosis) build, and hellion into 2port banshee build (SC used this against NesTea this season, i believe?) against hellions.
TvT I just go 111.
I'm just now understanding the theory and correlation between unit compositions -- pretty much what you're explaining but from the TvZ side.
Thanks for the break down!
At least I know what you zergs are thinking now. :p
What level are you? Setting aside unit compositions and build orders, there's a mindset to playing economy based strategy games that will allow you to run over people, even when you choose a sub-optimal build order or pick the wrong units. The best way to look at it is honestly through Plants vs Zombies. You establish the most lucrative economy you can, while spending as few resources as possible to stay alive. It's more suited to Zerg, where the number of openings is quite limited and you have drone cycles, but it works for all the races to some extent. Terran needs some amount of constant production because they can't instantly build an army, but you can still out-expand your opponent at most levels of the game. Scouting and awareness are crucial to this play style so you know what your opponent is capable of doing, and roughly when they'll do it.
It's not specific to openings either. Unless you're doing a lot of early pressure or an all-in (which will get you wins but are not very useful for learning the core of the game), you should still maintain this mentality. Low level players tend to be extremely passive, and are insulated inside their base, which means they have little map information/scouting and their expansions are late. That is when you invest in double sunflowers, before the wave of zombies becomes too significant. You, meanwhile, have kept an eye on the map and your marines or hellions and spread around their possible expansions, and you've used some of your OC energy to see what units they're making.
Early on, you will die a lot to all ins while you're figuring it out, but eventually you'll know what's necessary to survive that all-in, and will have the rest of your resources devoted to your next sunflower/expansion. The extra income then gets used to fund your new production buildings and economy. That mindset, properly executed, will carry you quite far even if you're building the wrong units. Once you've got that core down, then you can figure out how to incorporate harassment and other techniques to distract/slow/mindfuck your opponents.
Things like this are why blizzard needs to allow more people to watch the same replay. So you can go over the game with someone who knows what you were supposed to be doing and tell you at each moment what you should have done.
What should help you is something similar. Either share an exemplary replay that you lost and don't really know why, try to analyze it, post that and ask for help from people that are better than you. They should tell you what you should have done in each situation.
Or, play vs some people close to your skill and have someone better than you obs and tell you what you should be doing trough the whole duration of the game (ofc, so the other player doesn't hear it). It helps a lot. And you can later watch the replay and see the situations and what you're supposed to do. Also, while playing, pause the game when you're kinda lost, and take a minute or two to think what you should be doing, and only then resume.
Matchup specific, I find this build pretty easy versus zergs, doesn't require much micro and is pretty robust: 15 gas 2 marines -> reactor-> 6 marines-> switch reactor to factory, CC on expo if safe otherwise in base -> CC about 50% done, add 2nd gas, 2 factories with reactor -> mass hellion, later add 2x factory with tech lab start pre-igniter, just mass mass hellions, then start making thors, maybe a few tanks. add barracks for making support units -> make marines if zerg goes muta, make mauraders if roach. upgrade only armor I think, not attack.
^^ you can actually kill roaches with hellions with this build, it's insane. it's my variation of a build someone recently used vs DRG to decimate him, but I didn't refine it yet since I can't play sc2 atm. T_T