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A little background info: I'm in my last semester of college to become a music teacher and I'm currently in the process of student teaching. For those who are unfamiliar, student teaching is where you work a full-time job for no pay, actually I had to pay around $3500 for the semester, which is cheap compared to other places.
Don't get me wrong, I'm having a blast and learning a ton. I love to work with the students and mostly I love music, but it's all the other BS that teachers have to put up with, mainly parents and administrators, that makes me second guess my career decision. I'm lucky to be student teaching with a couple of teachers who have earned a stellar reputation and are respected by all members of the staff. The same cannot be said for parents. I knew going in that parents' view on public schools and education in general have shifted radically. Even when I was a kid (I'm 23 now) I was responsible for getting good grades, scoring well on tests, and managing my behavior in the classroom. Think back to when your parents were in school. If a kid failed a test, the parents would punish the kid. Nowadays, if a kid fails a test or gets an F in a class, chances are good that a parent will either call, email, or storm in right after school.
Puts it into perspective.
Parents (and future parents), I would like to tell you what I, as a future educator, think of this change in attitude. I will start off with a question: Why am I responsible for your kid's grades? Why am I responsible for you kid getting a good score on the SAT? Why am I expected to spoon feed your child everything that he/she will need to know on the test? I'm responsible for teaching your child what they need to know to succeed in school and life after schooling. I can't take the test for your student, nor can I write the college entry essay for her. I'm trying to my job, but your kid has to pull his own weight, too!
Here 's an idea, make your kids turn off the TV, go upstairs, and read their textbook. Hold the students responsible for their poor grades and punish them accordingly. Lay out a series of consequences if the grades don't improve and enforce them. I bet you my nonexistent salary that grades will improve, especially if the consequences are things like no Xbox, no computer, and no visiting friends outside of school events. I really feel that parents need to hold their kids accountable for their behavior, as it will have a huge impact (positive or negative) on the child's future. Speaking of accountability, here's one college professors version of test review .
Oh, how I wish I could do this with high school students...
It makes me sad that teachers are held more accountable for students progress and test scores than the students themselves! As a teacher, I try to teach my kids everything that I can about music. I teach them the notes, the rhythms, what the markings mean; but the kids have to take their instruments home and practice! Now if I tell the student every single week that A flat is played with the second and third valves, but the kid doesn't even practiced and gets a III at solo contest because he played A natural instead of A flat, did I fail at my job? Some might say yes, but I did what I could. Short of standing behind the student and holding the horn to his face while pushing down the valves, I did everything in my power to teach him. It's his responsibility to apply what he learned and be able to remember.
OK, I need to stop for a second and make myself perfectly clear. Not all parents are like this. Not all parents think that teachers should give their students A's just for showing up. In fact, I feel confident that the majority of parents where I live (Upper Midwest) know that student learning and achievement needs to be done by the student. I point out geographic location because I know that people up here are somewhat old-fashioned, and I haven't spent enough time in other locations to make an educational opinion. That said, there are more and more of these "helicopter parents" that come running in every time their kid gets an F, or even a C. It's a generational division, and I think it is illustrated very well in Clint Eastwood's Gran Torino. If you haven't seen that movie, I encourage you to. No spoilers here, but it is a good movie for sure.
This is where I take my leave, but know that I have much more to talk about on the subject of education. Teacher salaries and benefits vs. Costs of education and certification is probably next, if anyone cares. And if you don't, that's cool too! Just know this parents (both current and future), we teachers didn't go into teaching to get rich. We don't buy BMWs and we don't have pools in our yards. We go into teaching because we either A) love working with young people B) love our subject and feel like sharing it with others C) firmly believe that we can make a difference in the lives of students or D) all of the above. We want what's best for your kid, but we need your support!
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I don't think it should be the educator's responsibility to motivate the students. That should fall upon the parents and students themselves.
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this is so true. which is one of the reasons i just switched from social studies ed to a history major. did some field experience and really did not like it for the shit pay. don't really know what i will do now but I am a junior so probably gotta figure it out huh?
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Congratulations! you just made your own job seem completely redundant. I have alot of respect for teachers and their shit wages and what they have to put up with considering what they do is so important makes me really upset, but reading your blog it doesn't seem you think you are supposed to do anything but tell the kids what note to play? motivating your students IS part of what you should do, sure you can't always get results and if you did what you could it's certainly not your fault and you shouldn't get shit for it. edit was to post below me^
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On February 29 2012 16:24 nttea wrote: Congratulations! you just made your own job seem completely redundant.
Do explain.
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I agree for the most part. My mother is a teacher and she always made sure I knew how to read/write do math ect. in those first few years of elementary school. However I do think some teachers are absolutely horrible and when you don't understand it is partially their fault. I spent the better half of my grade 12 math course teaching my corner of the class what the teacher had just explained. I thought it was a lot of fun but looking back on it it's kinda sad =/
I've always had a lot of respect for teachers though especially for dealing with this kind of bs -.-
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I've always been held accountable for my work, and I do feel that that's the correct mentality with which to approach the matter. I've had great teachers, and I have a good deal of respect for what they do.
That said, I understand that underqualified, poorly trained, or negligent teachers can do a great deal of damage, but I place the bulk of the responsibility on administration, teachers' unions, and teaching training policies.
Keep pursuing your goals and be a great inspiration! We need more people with passion and determination
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On February 29 2012 16:26 OmniEulogy wrote:I agree for the most part. My mother is a teacher and she always made sure I knew how to read/write do math ect. in those first few years of elementary school. However I do think some teachers are absolutely horrible and when you don't understand it is partially their fault. I spent the better half of my grade 12 math course teaching my corner of the class what the teacher had just explained. I thought it was a lot of fun but looking back on it it's kinda sad =/ I've always had a lot of respect for teachers though especially for dealing with this kind of bs -.- Very true, very true. There are some teachers who should not be allowed to step into a classroom. But I think that they are being weeded out mainly through retirement. Standards for teachers have jumped up a notch. There has been and always will be excellent teachers, and there will always be some teachers like Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. It's the nature of the world.
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Isn't it a good thing if parents are calling after a bad grade? Regardless of their tone, your job is to convince them to help their child if he isn't studying at home, and to listen to what problems the kid thinks he has. There are very, very few jobs where you don't have to deal with angry people - and angry people will always seem like cunts.
Just because dealing with these parents is hard doesn't mean that it's bad, or not important. You should be happy it actually gives you a chance to help the kid.
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On February 29 2012 16:24 nttea wrote: Congratulations! you just made your own job seem completely redundant. I have alot of respect for teachers and their shit wages and what they have to put up with considering what they do is so important makes me really upset, but reading your blog it doesn't seem you think you are supposed to do anything but tell the kids what note to play? motivating your students IS part of what you should do, sure you can't always get results and if you did what you could it's certainly not your fault and you shouldn't get shit for it. edit was to post below me^ Yeah I re-read the blog and I see what you mean. Motivation is a big part of my job, and I should have provided some examples of how i can get students motivated. It's hard, honestly. I try to build a personal relationship with them, so they will want to do what they are supposed to. I try to be a hardass, so they want to do it just to not get yelled at (gave that up after one student). I try to show them that I really do know what I'm talking about and that they could learn a lot from me. <-- The only students who buy into that are the advanced/interested students (and they are already motivated, for the most part). There is really only one way to provide solid motivation, and that's through grades. I hate that. I hate it a lot. There's only so much that a teacher can do to extrinsically motivate students. The best motivation comes from within. Mainly I try to make my lessons and classes as interesting as I can. For example, instead of beating this one boring (in their minds) concert band song to death, I passed out Bad Romance (I know I know, but they're teenagers!!!) and we pull that out when things are about to implode. Like I said, I'm not even a real teacher yet, so I obviously have nearly zero experience. I try new things everyday. Trial and error is the name of the game.
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I have a couple friends who are teachers and I respect them very much. It can be a tough job. While I do agree that parents need to be more involved with their child's education, there are some awful teachers in the field. I went through junior high failing math. I eventually came to the conclusion that I was absolutely trash at it. Come to find out I wasn't at all, I just had a couple of really bad math teachers. I suppose I shouldn't generalize teachers with my anecdotal evidence but it's not always the kids fault and I would imagine they have no idea why. I suppose a lot this also comes back to parents needing to be more involved with their child's education.
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On February 29 2012 16:37 Jehct wrote: Isn't it a good thing if parents are calling after a bad grade? Regardless of their tone, your job is to convince them to help their child if he isn't studying at home, and to listen to what problems the kid thinks he has. There are very, very few jobs where you don't have to deal with angry people - and angry people will always seem like cunts.
Just because dealing with these parents is hard doesn't mean that it's bad, or not important. You should be happy it actually gives you a chance to help the kid. This isn't about the tone of the parents but their beliefs. Most parents nowadays (well, in the U.S.) assume a stance that their kid can't possibly be doing anything wrong and absolutely deserve an A regardless of how much they know. There's hardly any room to help the kids (also, the kids don't even want help, which makes it worse) when the parents' complaints amount to "my kid doesn't need help in school. He is a genius and deserves an A. How dare you insinuate otherwise!" I have some pretty strong opinions about our educational system and parental attitudes regarding education that I don't really have to time to rant about but it does, for the most part, agree with OP.
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On February 29 2012 16:37 Jehct wrote: Isn't it a good thing if parents are calling after a bad grade? Regardless of their tone, your job is to convince them to help their child if he isn't studying at home, and to listen to what problems the kid thinks he has. There are very, very few jobs where you don't have to deal with angry people - and angry people will always seem like cunts.
Just because dealing with these parents is hard doesn't mean that it's bad, or not important. You should be happy it actually gives you a chance to help the kid. It is a good thing that parents are concerned about the grades. It's not a good thing that certain parents blame the teacher for the grade. It would be much different if an entire class failed a test, for that shows a lack of understanding by the students and the teacher needs to adjust the teaching method. I enjoy working with a parent who wants to know what can be done to remedy the situation. It's the occasional parent that demands that I change their grade or let them retake the test that inspires me to write a post like this
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I think it really depends on the grade you're teaching. In primary/middle school, I would generally expect most of the children to be interested in school, at least that's how it was in my classes (if my memory serves correctly). But, in high school it changed drastically..after grade 8/9 most students were not that interested anymore and were more interested in the social interaction between their friends, and I was fortunate enough to get through school without having to study too much, but at least I can say that my education was heavily influenced by my teachers. My parents didn't force me to do anything and didn't put any pressure on my teachers if I would've gotten a bad grade, but for me, your approach seems weird...you say there only one way to provide solid motivation (grades), but from my point of view I have to disagree with you on this. If your classes are interesting and you try to include your students in them (interactive and shit), you can be surprised at how much they will learn. But I really thinks on the topic you're teaching..but still, from my personal experience, the more interesting the class, the better the outcome for the students.
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On February 29 2012 16:57 drsnuggles wrote: I think it really depends on the grade you're teaching. In primary/middle school, I would generally expect most of the children to be interested in school, at least that's how it was in my classes (if my memory serves correctly). But, in high school it changed drastically..after grade 8/9 most students were not that interested anymore and were more interested in the social interaction between their friends, and I was fortunate enough to get through school without having to study too much, but at least I can say that my education was heavily influenced by my teachers. My parents didn't force me to do anything and didn't put any pressure on my teachers if I would've gotten a bad grade, but for me, your approach seems weird...you say there only one way to provide solid motivation (grades), but from my point of view I have to disagree with you on this. If your classes are interesting and you try to include your students in them (interactive and shit), you can be surprised at how much they will learn. But I really thinks on the topic you're teaching..but still, from my personal experience, the more interesting the class, the better the outcome for the students. I do have the good fortune (or great foresight, depending on how you look at it) of teaching instrumental music. Participation is required in the class. And you explained exactly why I hate falling back on giving poor grades for poor participation. Some kids don't give a hoot about grades. I try to make it fun and interesting, but there are some things that kids have to do whether they want to or not, much like real life. There are things we have to do in class and we can't just play popular songs like Star Wars or pep band tunes all the time. Mostly I'm currently struggling with providing motivation that has nothing to do with grades, because I really don't know the kids. It's not my school and it's not my band, I am a guest in the room. And they know that I'm done at the beginning of may. God, even learning all the kids names is a challenge as I am working with over 300 of them right now.
This question is open to all because you all went through school and all had subjects that you liked or hated, the same goes for teachers. How would you motivate a kid who has no desire to learn what you are trying to teach? My personal philosophy is through positive relationships with the students. But some kids don't want to get to know me or my cooperating teacher because they don't want to be there at all! I don't know why some of those kids are in band, but they are and I have to do my job and try to teach them. There is probably no good answer, but I welcome all answers, except blatant trolls.
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On February 29 2012 16:49 KazeHydra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 16:37 Jehct wrote: Isn't it a good thing if parents are calling after a bad grade? Regardless of their tone, your job is to convince them to help their child if he isn't studying at home, and to listen to what problems the kid thinks he has. There are very, very few jobs where you don't have to deal with angry people - and angry people will always seem like cunts.
Just because dealing with these parents is hard doesn't mean that it's bad, or not important. You should be happy it actually gives you a chance to help the kid. This isn't about the tone of the parents but their beliefs. Most parents nowadays (well, in the U.S.) assume a stance that their kid can't possibly be doing anything wrong and absolutely deserve an A regardless of how much they know. There's hardly any room to help the kids (also, the kids don't even want help, which makes it worse) when the parents' complaints amount to "my kid doesn't need help in school. He is a genius and deserves an A. How dare you insinuate otherwise!" I have some pretty strong opinions about our educational system and parental attitudes regarding education that I don't really have to time to rant about but it does, for the most part, agree with OP. True. Not their little angel! He wouldn't harm a fly! Reminds me of the Dursleys in Harry Potter...
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I agree with a lot of what the OP is saying. I'm a senior in high school and I'm grateful that my parents didn't bring me up this way. Sure, there would be times when I didn't perform up to expectations, but my parents tried to work with the teacher to target my weak points, both at home and at school. They never demanded a grade increase, only ask that the teacher tell them where I could improve.
Grades in general are starting to get inflated and I think this is a reason for more "helicopter parenting". Everyone thinks they deserve an A regardless of how much effort they put in or how well they do because everyone else has an A. At my international high school in China this is really prevalent. I know some kids who don't get As and then chalk it up to "teacher doesn't teach" or "I don't like his/her teaching style".
When parents are like this it really shows in the kid's behavior too. A lot of people from the older generation would probably say that this current generation of kids is "full of shit", but how much of that is faulty parenting?
Anyways, best of luck to the OP if he continues in teaching!
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On February 29 2012 17:09 MaximusT wrote:
I do have the good fortune (or great foresight, depending on how you look at it) of teaching instrumental music. Participation is required in the class. And you explained exactly why I hate falling back on giving poor grades for poor participation. Some kids don't give a hoot about grades. I try to make it fun and interesting, but there are some things that kids have to do whether they want to or not, much like real life. There are things we have to do in class and we can't just play popular songs like Star Wars or pep band tunes all the time. Mostly I'm currently struggling with providing motivation that has nothing to do with grades, because I really don't know the kids. It's not my school and it's not my band, I am a guest in the room. And they know that I'm done at the beginning of may. God, even learning all the kids names is a challenge as I am working with over 300 of them right now.
This question is open to all because you all went through school and all had subjects that you liked or hated, the same goes for teachers. How would you motivate a kid who has no desire to learn what you are trying to teach? My personal philosophy is through positive relationships with the students. But some kids don't want to get to know me or my cooperating teacher because they don't want to be there at all! I don't know why some of those kids are in band, but they are and I have to do my job and try to teach them. There is probably no good answer, but I welcome all answers, except blatant trolls.
I only had 'instrumental music' taught to me when I was 13/14. After that it would get much more theoretical and I dropped it. It was a compulsory subject, which nobody seemed to mind because we could just fuck around an hour instead of having to be quiet and listening to the teacher. Music was fun, we only got to play pep band tunes (as you call them) as far as I remember. Our teacher was an awesome person and we didn't really learn anything, I got an 8 or 9 (out of 10) at the end of the 2 years I believe.
The more I think about it, the more I don't understand. What could you possibly want to teach them that they wouldn't find fun? As you saw, I screwed around or two years learning virtually nothing (only that I like music and the guy that taught it).
With more boring subjects I can understand, but music? Must be very different than what I'm used to.
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Maybe I'll respect teachers more when teacher unions stop preventing bad teachers from being fired.
/reverse rant
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I worked as a tutor for English for three years and another thing I realized is that parents rather spend a lot of money on additional tutoring and classes instead of taking a few hours of their free time to teach their children how to learn properly OR (in case of younger students) to take a few hours every week, sit down with their kids and learn with them.
I've had my fair share of 5 graders who were sitting there, totally unmotivated and just wasted away my time and their parents money. Can I blame the kid? I don't think so. It's should've been part of his/her upbringing to learn how to learn.
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On February 29 2012 18:06 hersenen wrote: Maybe I'll respect teachers more when teacher unions stop preventing bad teachers from being fired.
/reverse rant reverse rant what? and just cause you don't like the policies of a union consisting of people with a certain profession you don't respect any of them? You can't really mean that so why on earth do you post it.
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On February 29 2012 19:30 nttea wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 18:06 hersenen wrote: Maybe I'll respect teachers more when teacher unions stop preventing bad teachers from being fired.
/reverse rant reverse rant what? and just cause you don't like the policies of a union consisting of people with a certain profession you don't respect any of them? You can't really mean that so why on earth do you post it.
Read more closely, I said "respect teachers more", meaning there's already respect there. I don't fault you for not reading my post closely, I skim everything on the internet too.
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I think the english vocabulary lacks different words for "education" as in learning new stuff at school, and "education" as in learning how to become a responsible member of society.
Anyways, I've also seen the trent where the responsibilities of both before mentioned educations where shifted towards teachers in Germany, something that I don't really like. Thank god I am teaching at a university level, where I can just not let the student pass without much backlash onto my person (by the student or by their parents). But sometimes I am really eager to try talking to those parents as to see why in the world they expect me to teach their kid the basic values of life.
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I agree. I worked my ass off in school, while peers complained if a teacher was known for "harsh grades".
Also, epic picture 5/5
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United States24351 Posts
Ah reminds me of this picture:
I see where you are coming from, OP. You've described just a few of the things that really both me as an educator. Honestly, it makes me want to leave public education until there is eventually a cultural shift where (hopefully) things get better.
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In my experience motivation for many kids has more to do with respect than with grades. Of course I went to a highschool with many kids whose parents just didn't care at all (which while easier on you, is probably worst of all for the kid), and many students had no desire to succeed at anything. Grades just couldn't motivate them.
It was also a school with a lot of really, really bad teachers. (And 3 or 4 amazing ones) By bad teachers, I mean teachers who:
- Looked at porn all day on their laptop instead of teaching, and made up grades for imaginary tests and assignments. (I finally got this guy fired.) - Teachers who were teaching upper level science classes who were supposed to be teaching English, because of the salary difference. Also fired for making up grades and not teaching. - Teachers who really only wanted to coach sports, and made it clear they hated teaching, and gave straight As to all the students they coached without expecting them to learn. And so forth.
Then there were those very few teachers who payed attention to what was going on and cared about their kids. If you didn't do well at something, they pull you aside and ask if you needed more help. They asked if things were ok at home if you stopped doing work or missed class. They offered to come in early, stay late, drive you home if need be so you could get some tutoring. They asked what you were interested in, and if you thought about going to college. They were happy to talk about life stuff instead of school stuff if you stopped in during a prep period. They graded fairly, but students ended up with much better grades in these classes compared to others.
The grades weren't really a factor so much as the fact that when a teacher shows respect for you as a person, and that they are teaching for the right reasons (they care about their students and helping them succeed in life), you are inclined to respect them back by making an effort.
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I work as a teacher and agree with the OP, and it makes me not to like my job (which I will quit). Whenever I have seen this phenomenon, it seems to originate from the same source: grading is in some way politicized or linked with money, either for the students or for the teachers/schools. This creates a huge initiative to inflate the grades, and it shifts the power from the teacher to the student. The effect snowballs, because when one teacher lowers requirements, and therefore gets more stuff X and more students, others will follow in competition for "low quality". If you attempt to keep high standards, there will be no students and you are considered a bad teacher because the grades are bad.
It is for this reason that I think the educational system I currently work in will sunk into oblivion. Its like Zimbabwean dollars that you can just print until everybody is a billionaire and a new currency will just quietly replace it. There is no causal, logical or correlative link between grades/the number of degrees and money: its all imagined and abstractly forced into use, by putting an arbitrary price tag for a piece of paper obtained from some institution.
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I've mentioned to people before that school grades never reflected a students ability to learn, intelligence, knowledge of the material taught, etc.
I graduated with like a 2.0 in high school. I didn't care, I didn't try, and to be honest it didn't matter. Lucky for my teachers, they were not graded on my performance. (went to high school several years ago now).
When I finally decided to go to college and make a better career and life for myself I entered community college and literally made straight A's. I made Dean's list every year and graduated Magna Cum Laude with my Associates. I later transferred to a University and had a 3.6 GPA before finishing my mechanical engineering major.
None of my teachers in high school would have thought that I could have possibly went into something as difficult as engineering and excelled at it. I wouldn't have blamed them. I didn't show them I was bright, and I didn't show them that I was stupid, I showed them that I didn't care. Teachers should not be graded by student performance. You can be the best teacher in the world and good ole' Albert Einstein will still fail your class and be diagnosed with a learning problem because he is bored or unmotivated.
You know what motivated me to do well after high school? Being in the real world and realizing if I wanted anything better for myself, I would have to do what needed to be done. Simple as that. It isn't a teacher's job to motivate me. I am not doing poorly due to their ability to present material or to interest me in the subject. I was 14-18 in high school, you think I give a flip about chemistry, calculus, or history? I was interested in girls, hanging out with my friends, and having a good time.
TLDR: Each individual person is the reason they excel or do poorly in life. Period. You can blame someone else or your circumstances all you want, but in the end, it is your decision to do well or not.
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Lol , is this for real? This goes beyond the logic. You fail a test and its the teachers fault? what , what , WHAT? What the hell is going on in america lol.
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On February 29 2012 21:24 Knap4life wrote: Lol , is this for real? This goes beyond the logic. You fail a test and its the teachers fault? what , what , WHAT? What the hell is going on in america lol.
This mindset is indeed really bad. Although it could indeed be the teachers fault ( the teacher is just crap for instance), there's not alot you can do about it. Sometimes you just gotta get through a year with a really bad teacher. Ofcourse if a teacher is just ridiculously bad then you should go complain. But if a teacher just teaches in a way that's not really compatible with a student, well then he just needs to study harder or have someone else to help him.
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Too much energy is being spent to figure out who is to blame. It's the teachers' fault for not motivating the kids. The parents' for not making their kids study and not teaching respect. The kids' for not putting in the work. Society's for creating an anti-intellectual culture.
Who the fuck cares?
The only important question is what you can do to make the situation better.
Let's say you do figure out that it's mostly the parents' fault. What's you next move? Tell them that it's all their fault and they should stop bugging you? They'll just get defensive and probably start blaming you. Everyone will be focused on defending their ego (or their work) instead of trying to help the kids.
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Hey, im a recently graduated high school student. I went to HS in Michigan moving between the suburbs and the rural areas. while i was in school many of the issues that you are talking about were glaringly apparent to me even as a student. Specifically the problem teachers have of motivating their students. The problem with motivating students as I see it, is that some students outright refuse to put any effort in at all.
You cant teach someone who just doesn't want to learn, and it's a real tragedy when a teachers performance is judged based on the motivation or performance of students who don't care about the course. rather then their actual merits as an educator. As a high school student, i observed this dynamic taking place, and I think i can say with great certainty that I would never, ever, want to work as an educator of those ungrateful bastards. I hope you find dedicated students to teach Good luck!
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On February 29 2012 22:58 PassiveAce wrote:Hey, im a recently graduated high school student. I went to HS in Michigan moving between the suburbs and the rural areas. while i was in school many of the issues that you are talking about were glaringly apparent to me even as a student. Specifically the problem teachers have of motivating their students. The problem with motivating students as I see it, is that some students outright refuse to put any effort in at all. You cant teach someone who just doesn't want to learn, and it's a real tragedy when a teachers performance is judged based on the motivation or performance of students who don't care about the course. rather then their actual merits as an educator. As a high school student, i observed this dynamic taking place, and I think i can say with great certainty that I would never, ever, want to work as an educator of those ungrateful bastards. I hope you find dedicated students to teach Good luck!
To be fair, some teachers are able to motivate kids to hate the class as it's being taught even if they're normally excellent in a subject. Math was always easy for me, but I failed Algebra 2 (Only class I ever failed, too). The teacher was so concerned about trying to get every single person to pass the class that she didn't even look at cause and effect. She paced the class for people who were NEVER paying attention, never trying, and generally not doing shit. Literally, we got less than a quarter of the way through the book that year, because we would spend a week on one day's worth of lessons. Now this wouldn't have been so bad, but she would assign a good hours worth of homework every single day. Mind you, these kids had a study hall in HER ROOM the period DIRECTLY before class... and she watched them sit there, reading magazines and BSing the whole time. But she still slowed the class to a crawl, even though THEY were completely unmotivated.
I'm also the only person I know who ever failed by .1%... 69.4% Yeah, I could have done the same (Not literally, just the same topic, same difficulty) homework 5 days a week all year, and passed. But unless I spent a couple of pointless hours showing my imaginary work (I just kind of looked at it and knew the answer generally), I would have been getting 60% at most on those assignments, for having the sheer gall to actually UNDERSTAND the subject.
Yes, the majority of the time it's the parents, and partially society, for wanting to coddle children. It's not like parents actually have the authority to ENFORCE any consequences for their children these days, at least in the USA. But there ARE circumstances where the teacher needs to get canned. It's entirely possible to be dead wrong for trying to help the class understand, if you take it too far.
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Oh boy, do I have a LOT to say about things like: - music education in high school - high school teachers and teacher's union - relationships and interactions between students, their parents, and teachers - teacher/school reputations - attitudes, in general
Excuse me while I indulge myself in a massive rant. Here it goes.
First of all, regarding the OP content, I mostly agree. The sense of entitlement is growing. Students feel entitled to a lot of things - sadly, a "good mark" is one of them. In high school the whines never ended: "I studied for 4 hours how come I only got a 70 Q_Q" or "I used to get 90 in math last year how come I'm only getting a 65 now? Mr. / Mrs. [teacher] is such a bad teacher." I tell them that peeking at the text book once every 10 facebook posts is not really studying. Nope, doesn't matter, all the teacher's fault for making such unreasonable tests at the most unreasonable time. I'm sure you've had similar experiences.
I don't have public school teaching experience. I worked as a music theory teacher at a private music school (part time) during my high school and university years. Additionally, I tutored students in piano performance / theory / math / science. Anyway, I do have a lot of experience at a smaller group / personal level when it comes to interactions with students. In a group setting, I remember that my primary goal was to have everyone's attention at all times. As long as they don't doze off, they'll maybe remember something I said during the exam, eh. Whatever subject I was dealing with, I made a lot of absurd connections with pop culture to keep them entertained. Not sure if I earned 'respect' that way, but at least nobody walked out on me.
As a student in high school, I did not respect some of the teachers there. To me, it became clear that those teachers (that I had little to no respect for) were sitting on their 20 year experience shield and milking the money out of the system with minimal effort. One of my math teachers barely spoke any English and relied on photocopies of my test paper to provide answers / explanations at the test take-up (I basically got a straight 100% in that class). My civics/careers teacher strongly discouraged any answers outside of what was explicitly mentioned in the textbook. My history teacher talked about stocks and football all day (fine, I didn't mind it too much) and sat all the cute girls in the front row. My friend's chemistry teacher didn't know her own subject well enough to grade her students properly - after comparing answers with me, my friend talked to my teacher to get her test re-graded properly. There are more examples, but you get my point.
Then, there are the ones I respected enough to re-visit multiple times after graduation. My calculus teacher was passionate about providing creative challenges in-class that I thoroughly enjoyed. The computer science teacher was a funny Asian old man who came up with bullshit 'wise words' that breathed life into an otherwise dry subject. I was even pretty chill with the school security guard because we both liked to talk about EPL (he didn't mind me skipping classes or sneaking in free to school events, lol).
Most of all, I respected my music teacher above all else. She was an angel. I couldn't figure out how she coped with a class full of kids looking for easy marks with minimal effort (I am part guilty in this). High school strings class, and half the second violins couldn't play a D major scale. Some of the first violins were those snobby private lesson kids and randomly broke into cadenzas. Cellos never played loud enough despite there being six of them. Violas... I don't even need to describe them =P I was one of the two bassists. Anyway, my teacher - she tolerated all those musical failures, kept the class interesting for the most part, managed meaningful history and theory lessons, and yet she somehow got everyone together in a large orchestra to produce reasonable-quality music nights every semester. I got more and more involved in the music activities at school, and as I spent more time in the music office, I saw how much hard work goes into preparing for each class.
I rambled on too long, it seems. I don't even think I got to all the points I listed at the start. Whatever, okay. So my point is - some teachers definitely need to be flushed out, but there are gems in the system that keep it rolling. Spoiled kids and their parents will from time to time cause you grief, but you can't control them (especially not the parents). You can and you should do your best to leave a positive experience for the students so that they don't become those delusional parents down the road.
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On March 01 2012 00:19 OpticalShot wrote: Violas... I don't even need to describe them =P . LOL. Oh violas...
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On February 29 2012 21:24 Knap4life wrote: Lol , is this for real? This goes beyond the logic. You fail a test and its the teachers fault? what , what , WHAT? What the hell is going on in america lol. Seriously this is happening. It's a feeling of self-entitlement that students get from their parents and a huge wake up call is needed.
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Good teachers will have more motivated students. Bad teachers will have less motivated students.
It's hard to be motivated to do your homework when you don't understand shit because of your awfull teacher. Physics used to be my worst class. No, wait. Almost everybody in my class except 4 or 5 failed the first semester for physics. What did we get? Every replacement came in with an attitude oh my god this class is so bad, you guys aren't motivated blah blah blah. We had about 3 of those before we got a full time replacement. This guy is fucking amazing. He explains everything so extremely clearly and vivid. When I make my homework i'm like. How the fuck did I ever find this remotely hard? It's such a piece of cake because I truly understand it. Even he thought we were an awfull class. Not anymore, almost everyone gets good grades now. I bolded almost, because obviously you will always have students who aren't motivated no matter how good you are as a teacher. Just as how a bad teacher will always have a couple of motivated students. Don't be like omfg I can't do shit about it. Yes you can. Another example. My biology teacher doesn't do jack shit. He just sits behind his table the whole time, like what the fuck? This stuff is actually hard, yes I can understand and teach it myself by reading the books. But it would be a hell of alot easier if you explained it clearly first =.=? I bolded clearly. My chemistry teacher understands his shit. You can tell. But I truly don't give a shit if you have a PhD in chemistry if you dismiss half off the steps whilst solving a problem because it's ''so obvious/logical'' teh fuck.
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On March 01 2012 01:20 Recognizable wrote: Good teachers will have more motivated students. Bad teachers will have less motivated students.
It's hard to be motivated to do your homework when you don't understand shit because of your awfull teacher. I agree 100%. I guess my perspective is from the standpoint of a teacher of an elective class. Band is not required. Some form of fine arts is, but there are other classes (art, chorus, orchestra, theater, etc.) available to fulfill those fine arts credits. I know a lot about music (band specifically) because I've studied it for 17 years (I started with piano when I was 6) and studied at the post-secondary level for 5 years. This does not automatically make me a good teacher, but as I have included specific examples in some of my other responses, I do try to make the class as enjoyable and as good of a learning experience as it can be. I really feel for teachers of the required classes, especially math. All students are required to take X amount of years of math, and they can't quit because they don't like it, or they won't graduate. It's a tough situation for everyone.
Parents want to see their child succeed, and in the current American education system, grades are the standard of success. So parents want their child to get good grades. Teachers want students to learn and earn the A or B. I for one don't feel it is my job to give a student a B who didn't earn it. In the US education system, B means above average and A means excellent (or superior or whatever, it depends on the state/school district). I can't give a student an above average grade for average or below average work. It reminds me (again) of Harry Potter. The Weasley twins were talking about OWLS and one of them says "We should have gotten Exceeds Expectations just for showing up!" (or something along those lines)
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This is exactly why I could never teach highschool. I'd want to tear their heads off. I'm going into teaching but at JC or Lib Arts college. That's bad enough!
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Calgary25942 Posts
When you read most teachers' stories, they start out like you: wide-eyed and set to change the world. 10 years later, and tied down in red tape, they've either lost their passion or switched careers.
/debbie_downer
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United States24351 Posts
Hahaha Chill so true.
The things about teaching that draw people to it only makes up like 25% of the job.
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Both sides need to pick up the slack. Imo teacher salary should really be increased not because they deserve it (although most of them do) but to increase competition and get rid of the bad ones. On the other side, some kids are just lazy as fuck, and teachers should get some more "power" I suppose over their curriculum. Whining shouldn't get them through school, hard work should. It's honestly one of my favorite parts of being in college; teachers here are for the most part clearly competent, and it's on the students to study and prepare. There are so many resources: T.As, office hours, study groups etc. Even with a terrible teacher, there's no reason why a kid should do poorly in a class if they apply themselves. If you fail, it's your fault.
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Thank you for this post. At 14, still in middle school, the picture you've shown is 100% accurate. The straight A students and I are the only one's who get grounded and yelled at from their parents for getting bad grades. Some of my friends get straight F's, and blame it all on the teachers for their teaching habits. I don't understand what's wrong with my generation.
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On March 01 2012 10:29 Frostfire wrote: Thank you for this post. At 14, still in middle school, the picture you've shown is 100% accurate. The straight A students and I are the only one's who get grounded and yelled at from their parents for getting bad grades. Some of my friends get straight F's, and blame it all on the teachers for their teaching habits. I don't understand what's wrong with my generation. Quite literally what's wrong with any generation is the last generation, no? Their genes and their parenting. The same goes for the previous generation and so on. As another post before said, there's no point in assigning blame. Bad parenting/teaching is a vicious circle. Unfortunately there's a lot of things you can't without infringing on the parents' territory, which is fair enough I suppose but quite frustrating when you see parents teaching children dumb things.
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Ah, I like this thread I'm a high school senior right now, planning on going into vocal music education in college.
This is an issue I've thought about a lot, and like others have mentioned, it's all about motivation. The problem is that every person is different and will have different things that motivate them, and as a teacher, I think you need to do your best to inspire as many of them as possible. Of course this is more difficult said than done. Since I'm still in high school, maybe I can help a bit to provide some insight to how students think.
I feel like in middle school/high school, kids are "drained" by the education system. What I mean by this is that it's all about getting enough grades to pass and passing the standardized tests that are required every year(this is in the US, not sure how the system is in Canada). Until the later years of high school, kids have little choice in what classes they can take, and to them, it feels like there's no rhyme or reason to anything they're learning(and there are some things I've been required to learn that are totally pointless for most people. Texas History, lol) . As a result, they just do what it takes to advance to the next grade, and it doesn't take that much to do so.
To motivate me, the thing that's helped me most is understanding WHY I'm learning about a subject. I think that should be a goal for every teacher-explain WHY, as much as possible, so that hopefully the students realize that there IS a point to what they're doing. For example, I'm taking an Anatomy and Physiology course right now, and even though it's by far my easiest class, I have the lowest grade in it because I have absolutely no motivation to work in there. We just copy down notes and memorize shit and then go to the next test. There's no why-I'm just doing it because I had to take a class. My teacher is completely uninterested in the subject, and as such we are too. On the other hand, my macroeconomics teacher is full of energy and always explains to us the importance of everything he teaches and how it impacts our lives(though in reality, I doubt macroeconomics would REALLY be needed by most people, except maybe to understand politicians and make informed votes a bit better). Still, it keeps me awake despite it being my first class of the day, and I've learned a lot in that class.
And of course, my personal passion is music, much like the OP(though I'm a vocalist, not a instrumentalist). In my choir, though, there's a lot of people that simply will not shut up and it really detracts from the choir. I've almost yelled at people several times in the class. My choir director is a fantastic teacher, and he's done a great job at motivating me and helping me discover my passion for music, but I think there's also a point where you need to be more strict. That's another thing-students need to develop a respect for their teacher as an authority figure. For some students it's more difficult than others, and sometimes, harsher punishments are needed I think. In choir you pretty much get an automatic A. I think a useful way to get people to shut up and work would be to actually give them Bs and Cs for disrupting rehearsal, and damage their GPA(my district has a weird GPA system-it's on a 7 point scale). Also, I think it would benefit the choir if from time to time he played some recordings of phenomenal high school choirs and said: "this is what you can do if you work at it. There is a point to what we are doing." This similar concept could be applied to other classes as well, I think. There's many other things as well, but these are just some of my immediate thoughts about teaching and motivating students.
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Ever since i was little it seems like education was this forced thing you had to do or you were a failure, there is a lack of encouragement from the part of the teachers and the system to really help you find where you fit in and what you like best. You are expected to do great at mathematics just because, great at physics, biology, history, chemistry all at once without a good reason in my opinion. If i was a physics teacher or a math teacher i would go out of my way to do cool things that would get the kids excited, show them all the different things you can do and encourage them to like it and if they don't help them find out what it is they like.
I know you can only connect with those kids and students who care to do so, but even if you only get through a few of them then i think that's a success. Not all kids were born to be mathematicians, artists or musicians, we all have our little niche that we feel comfortable in and that makes us happy. I bet most of the kids that you cant connect with are just there cause their parents made them or cause they had to pick something, these are the kids whose parents will blame the teacher for their little angel getting bad grades. They don't get involved in the lives of their kids and expect the school to raise them and make sure they get perfect grades, they don't talk to them and encourage them to pursue the things they really like. Most education system's are very "One size fits all" so all kids are supposed to go through the same classes and have the same interest. But reality is far different. It's the blame of the parents and the school system, i believe most teacher's start out very hopeful that they will change the lives of these kids but then reality comes and they become bitter and stop caring about changing anything and just go with it.
I think if i had an understanding and helpful teacher i would have done a lot better in high school, i dropped out of high school like 7 years ago because i lost all motivation to study. Just a year ago i woke up from this limbo of not knowing what im supposed to do in life, i finished high school recently and got all my credits to go to college and study Electrical engineering. I was never particularly good at math, physics and chemistry but now that i see just how much use they have in the real world and how much they help me understand things about what i want to do, my mindset has changed a lot, so now im heavily motivated to study hard and really understanding everything my teachers can teach me.
If all else fails you can open a khan academy type of site to teach music and you wont have to deal with parents , i really wish you good luck cause your job is really hard but is also very noble and can be very rewarding.
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A post earlier kind of brought up a point I have. A kid I know revises for like, 6 weeks for tests and gets 60%, while I can revise for ten minutes and get 90%. Yet this kid is in top set. There is such a large range between the top of the top set and the bottom it is frustrating. The teacher spends all lesson assisting these kids and wasting time with them, most of them not interested in even understanding. God, it annoys me.
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On March 04 2012 11:27 Jedclark wrote: A post earlier kind of brought up a point I have. A kid I know revises for like, 6 weeks for tests and gets 60%, while I can revise for ten minutes and get 90%. Yet this kid is in top set. There is such a large range between the top of the top set and the bottom it is frustrating. The teacher spends all lesson assisting these kids and wasting time with them, most of them not interested in even understanding. God, it annoys me.
You're talented, that's great, but getting ticked off because a teacher is helping weaker students is way over the top. It's their job to help and you calling it a waste of time is incredibly arrogant and self centred. As you've pointed out yourself, you have so much more time to improve yourself.
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On March 04 2012 12:44 hummingbird23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 11:27 Jedclark wrote: A post earlier kind of brought up a point I have. A kid I know revises for like, 6 weeks for tests and gets 60%, while I can revise for ten minutes and get 90%. Yet this kid is in top set. There is such a large range between the top of the top set and the bottom it is frustrating. The teacher spends all lesson assisting these kids and wasting time with them, most of them not interested in even understanding. God, it annoys me. You're talented, that's great, but getting ticked off because a teacher is helping weaker students is way over the top. It's their job to help and you calling it a waste of time is incredibly arrogant and self centred. As you've pointed out yourself, you have so much more time to improve yourself.
He was probably referring to my situation, and if so, mine was a case of teachers taking helping the bottom of the class too far, to the point that if I'd wanted to even reach the midpoint in the book by the end of the year, I would have been teaching myself, and not getting tested on it. Literally.
Instead, I just quit doing the extra homework and failed the class, because I wasn't going to spend all the time writing down the proper steps when I just looked and knew the answers. And I wasn't taking 60-70% on homework for failing to show my work and having everything right.
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On March 04 2012 12:55 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 12:44 hummingbird23 wrote:On March 04 2012 11:27 Jedclark wrote: A post earlier kind of brought up a point I have. A kid I know revises for like, 6 weeks for tests and gets 60%, while I can revise for ten minutes and get 90%. Yet this kid is in top set. There is such a large range between the top of the top set and the bottom it is frustrating. The teacher spends all lesson assisting these kids and wasting time with them, most of them not interested in even understanding. God, it annoys me. You're talented, that's great, but getting ticked off because a teacher is helping weaker students is way over the top. It's their job to help and you calling it a waste of time is incredibly arrogant and self centred. As you've pointed out yourself, you have so much more time to improve yourself. He was probably referring to my situation, and if so, mine was a case of teachers taking helping the bottom of the class too far, to the point that if I'd wanted to even reach the midpoint in the book by the end of the year, I would have been teaching myself, and not getting tested on it. Literally. Instead, I just quit doing the extra homework and failed the class, because I wasn't going to spend all the time writing down the proper steps when I just looked and knew the answers. And I wasn't taking 60-70% on homework for failing to show my work and having everything right. Self-motivation is, I guess, what separates the wheat from the chaff. And sometimes makes some of the chaff rise above the wheat.
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On March 04 2012 13:17 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 12:55 JingleHell wrote:On March 04 2012 12:44 hummingbird23 wrote:On March 04 2012 11:27 Jedclark wrote: A post earlier kind of brought up a point I have. A kid I know revises for like, 6 weeks for tests and gets 60%, while I can revise for ten minutes and get 90%. Yet this kid is in top set. There is such a large range between the top of the top set and the bottom it is frustrating. The teacher spends all lesson assisting these kids and wasting time with them, most of them not interested in even understanding. God, it annoys me. You're talented, that's great, but getting ticked off because a teacher is helping weaker students is way over the top. It's their job to help and you calling it a waste of time is incredibly arrogant and self centred. As you've pointed out yourself, you have so much more time to improve yourself. He was probably referring to my situation, and if so, mine was a case of teachers taking helping the bottom of the class too far, to the point that if I'd wanted to even reach the midpoint in the book by the end of the year, I would have been teaching myself, and not getting tested on it. Literally. Instead, I just quit doing the extra homework and failed the class, because I wasn't going to spend all the time writing down the proper steps when I just looked and knew the answers. And I wasn't taking 60-70% on homework for failing to show my work and having everything right. Self-motivation is, I guess, what separates the wheat from the chaff. And sometimes makes some of the chaff rise above the wheat.
Go back and read my post. It wasn't self motivation or lack thereof. I basically just went on strike. I made a conscious decision not to waste my time on homework for a teacher who was wasting my time in class. It didn't end up having any significant negative consequences, it was just annoying at the time.
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On March 04 2012 13:28 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 13:17 babylon wrote:On March 04 2012 12:55 JingleHell wrote:On March 04 2012 12:44 hummingbird23 wrote:On March 04 2012 11:27 Jedclark wrote: A post earlier kind of brought up a point I have. A kid I know revises for like, 6 weeks for tests and gets 60%, while I can revise for ten minutes and get 90%. Yet this kid is in top set. There is such a large range between the top of the top set and the bottom it is frustrating. The teacher spends all lesson assisting these kids and wasting time with them, most of them not interested in even understanding. God, it annoys me. You're talented, that's great, but getting ticked off because a teacher is helping weaker students is way over the top. It's their job to help and you calling it a waste of time is incredibly arrogant and self centred. As you've pointed out yourself, you have so much more time to improve yourself. He was probably referring to my situation, and if so, mine was a case of teachers taking helping the bottom of the class too far, to the point that if I'd wanted to even reach the midpoint in the book by the end of the year, I would have been teaching myself, and not getting tested on it. Literally. Instead, I just quit doing the extra homework and failed the class, because I wasn't going to spend all the time writing down the proper steps when I just looked and knew the answers. And I wasn't taking 60-70% on homework for failing to show my work and having everything right. Self-motivation is, I guess, what separates the wheat from the chaff. And sometimes makes some of the chaff rise above the wheat. Go back and read my post. It wasn't self motivation or lack thereof. I basically just went on strike. I made a conscious decision not to waste my time on homework for a teacher who was wasting my time in class. It didn't end up having any significant negative consequences, it was just annoying at the time. So you didn't have to retake the class, and it didn't affect your subsequent placement into an appropriate math course? What kind of school did you go to?
I've always found it a fun challenge to raise the bar whenever I was taking a boring-as-shit class by getting as close to a perfect grade as possible. Going on strike against teachers is idiotic, especially when you're essentially saying "the class was so easy I failed," but that's just my personal opinion.
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On March 04 2012 13:47 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 13:28 JingleHell wrote:On March 04 2012 13:17 babylon wrote:On March 04 2012 12:55 JingleHell wrote:On March 04 2012 12:44 hummingbird23 wrote:On March 04 2012 11:27 Jedclark wrote: A post earlier kind of brought up a point I have. A kid I know revises for like, 6 weeks for tests and gets 60%, while I can revise for ten minutes and get 90%. Yet this kid is in top set. There is such a large range between the top of the top set and the bottom it is frustrating. The teacher spends all lesson assisting these kids and wasting time with them, most of them not interested in even understanding. God, it annoys me. You're talented, that's great, but getting ticked off because a teacher is helping weaker students is way over the top. It's their job to help and you calling it a waste of time is incredibly arrogant and self centred. As you've pointed out yourself, you have so much more time to improve yourself. He was probably referring to my situation, and if so, mine was a case of teachers taking helping the bottom of the class too far, to the point that if I'd wanted to even reach the midpoint in the book by the end of the year, I would have been teaching myself, and not getting tested on it. Literally. Instead, I just quit doing the extra homework and failed the class, because I wasn't going to spend all the time writing down the proper steps when I just looked and knew the answers. And I wasn't taking 60-70% on homework for failing to show my work and having everything right. Self-motivation is, I guess, what separates the wheat from the chaff. And sometimes makes some of the chaff rise above the wheat. Go back and read my post. It wasn't self motivation or lack thereof. I basically just went on strike. I made a conscious decision not to waste my time on homework for a teacher who was wasting my time in class. It didn't end up having any significant negative consequences, it was just annoying at the time. So you didn't have to retake the class, and it didn't affect your subsequent placement into an appropriate math course? What kind of school did you go to? I've always found it a fun challenge to raise the bar whenever I was taking a boring-as-shit class by getting as close to a perfect grade as possible. Going on strike against teachers is idiotic, especially when you're essentially saying "the class was so easy I failed," but that's just my personal opinion.
It was Algebra 2, and and I tested out of basically my entire following year, graduated early. I wouldn't call testing out retaking it, really.
I didn't want to do homework (showing work, etc, pain in the ass, time consumed), seriously 1-2 hours a night, for a week at a time, on what was supposed to be a day's worth of material. I'm sure you can understand that. It wasn't too easy for me, it was too annoying. Particularly when the teacher spent all this extra time during class and assigning homework, but she ignored the students she was doing this for, in a study hall in HER room, directly prior to the class, doing nothing but reading magazines and BSing.
It was a bad teacher, finding an excuse to be lazy, so I did the same. If I'd have failed anything else, I'd have got grounded. I showed my parents what was happening in that one, and they just let me make the call for myself on whether to pass or fail.
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