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United States24342 Posts
Knowing two, or more languages is known to be very good for you! I won't go into the reasons why, as I don't think there will be much disagreement there.
What I have noticed is that citizens of the USA are much less likely to be bilingual+ than residents of most other countries. Most Europeans other than in the UK speak English as a second or third language. This also shouldn't be much of a surprise for most of you reading this.
The thing I do want to go into a bit is how Americans are treated for this. I often see lots of hate because many, if not most Americans only speak one language fluently. Most of this hate, I find (not all) comes from people who don't really have a right to complain.
Now if you want to criticize the country for not adapting a new mindset or policy regarding speaking multiple languages, I won't mind. What I'm talking about is how you are made fun of for not speaking another language besides your native tongue (the sad thing is how many locals can't even speak their native tongue that well, but that's a different discussion entirely, in my opinion).
A few things to consider (if any of these are wrong please speak up):
1) English is the official language of aviation worldwide 2) English is the most commonly used language online 3) English is usually the language that is used when people from several different countries are communicating
This isn't to say that English is better than other languages... just that it is commonly used.
When you grow up in European country X, you obviously learn the primary language from an early age. At the same time, while growing up, you also learn at least one other language (usually English). To practice, you use English online. You learn English watching movies or tv shows from the states, if you wish (they are available from what I've heard). Many countries teach English in schools as a second language due to its importance in the global community.
For comparison, someone growing up in the USA, while obviously learning American english, often won't get exposed to another language. When you get to middle school (much later than other countries) you will have to choose a second language to start learning, and by the time you graduate high school your ability in that language will maybe compare to that of a little kid speaking that language at home. Your usual daily activities, such as going online, watching tv, chatting with family members, or seeing movies, does not reinforce your learning of the second language at all.
It's really no surprise that so many Americans are not fluent in a second language. Spanish seems like the most obvious second language to choose (like I did in middle/high school) for most Americans since there is a large Latin Americans presence and subculture in the USA. However, if I want to learn the language and speak it fluently, I need to really go out of my way. I could try watching Spanish Soap Operas on my tv or hanging out in front of the local Home Depot having conversations with the illegal alien day laborers, but that's not really a reasonable thing to expect. The system is currently set up in a way that encourages bilingualism in some countries, and discourages it in mine.
Would people from the UK/AUS/etc mind sharing what it is like for you, for comparison? Do most people speak a second language fluently? Do you have the same predicament as us?
So in conclusion, next time you are going to make fun of an American for speaking only one language, remember, if you lived here all your life you probably would too.
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All I hear are excuses. One language = one worldview. If you are happy being stuck with only one language, you are to be pitied.
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United States24342 Posts
On May 14 2012 00:10 Jinsho wrote: All I hear are excuses. One language = one worldview. If you are happy being stuck with only one language, you are to be pitied. I hope I didn't give the illusion that I think speaking one language is good. Speaking multiple languages is great, and should be achieved as much as possible.
But you are doing the exact thing I am talking about which is bringing on unnecessary hate and blame. You also managed to not answer my question I directed at UK people.
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Now if you want to criticize the country for not adapting a new mindset or policy regarding speaking multiple languages, I won't mind.
There's criticism because European countries who are small and most homogenously than the United States (an assimilatory country that incorporates a lot of subcultures and languages) can learn more globally-accepted and viewed languages than them. It's natural because those smaller countries dependent on the world market and such, but at the same time, you'd think the USA would place more priority on speaking multiple languages to not only introduce new culture and open a youth's mind, but to also expand their horizon and give their CV a great boost (two languages statistically improves your success in job-hunting, no doubt there).
However, I agree with your sociological view that there are more options and it is much easier to learn English via media outlets or popular areas of culture/media than another language and that is a very good reasoning and explanation.
Would people from the UK/AUS/etc mind sharing what it is like for you, for comparison? In secondary school, they're a bit more serious about the second language during the classes.
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Hong Kong9136 Posts
At least for a university track, American high school students are required to take foreign language classes; additionally some universities require it as part of general education regimes. The primary problem is after education, Americans tend to not go abroad; not using a language for a while will lead to forgetting it in the future.
Also, aside from the large metropolitan areas, the middle of the United States tends to be very homogenous, with little of the 'melting pot' experience that supposedly describes this country. Finding a speaker of a language that you may have learned while in education may be near impossible in these circumstances.
In addition, current news cycles place large emphasis on fluff pieces, entertainment, and domestic issues. Americans today grow up uninterested about international issues and the world in which this country plays a significant role built up through decades of management. This depth of unintertest shows in the ignorance displayed by a vast majority of our population. We wouldn't be able to show someone where Azerbaijan is on a map and why it is important geostrategically, but we sure as hell could inform someone about the latest Lindsay Lohan scoop. Picking up and using a secondary language may just be getting thrown out of our value set as a whole.
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I also think it is because of a mentality that Americans have. Why would you necessarily be focused into learning a second language when you already know the 'universal' language? Obviously there are many reasons to, but when I was in school I treated language class like arts and craft.
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I thought that there were studies that show the optimal age to learn another language would be around 7 years old. However, the American education system tends to start teaching another language at 12-13. Combined with lack of use in their daily lives, the skills would atrophy and will firget everything.
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United States24342 Posts
On May 14 2012 00:40 Phelix wrote: I thought that there were studies that show the optimal age to learn another language would be around 7 years old. However, the American education system tends to start teaching another language at 12-13. Combined with lack of use in their daily lives, the skills would atrophy and will firget everything. Yes this sounds correct.
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Not knowing a second language just really reinforces the stereotype we have in Europe about how dumb Americans are (no offense to fellow forumers here - but this is an existing issue). As I understand it's an education system thing, but it paints your country in a bad light. In Europe, even outside the EU I believe it's impossible to finish elementary education without knowing a second language at least on a basic level.
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United States24342 Posts
On May 14 2012 00:44 Muki wrote: Not knowing a second language just really reinforces the stereotype we have in Europe about how dumb Americans are (no offense to fellow forumers here - but this is an existing issue). As I understand it's an education system thing, but it paints your country in a bad light. In Europe, even outside the EU I believe it's impossible to finish elementary education without knowing a second language at least on a basic level. What language is the second language you learned to get out of elementary school? Is it the same for most students?
What language should be the second language you need to get out of elementary school in the USA?
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I am from Denmark.
We begin English lesson when we are around 9 (I think), and German when we are around 12-13. I have had English for around 10 years, and German in 5. I am however only fluent in English, my German doesn't really get used/reinforced by for instance computer gaming and internet, so I can only understand most of it, but not speak it that well.
Most Danes speak English somewhat fluently, and some (mainly elderly and people working with Germany) speak German fluently. My brother does because he usually talks German during work.
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On May 14 2012 00:40 Phelix wrote: I thought that there were studies that show the optimal age to learn another language would be around 7 years old. However, the American education system tends to start teaching another language at 12-13. Combined with lack of use in their daily lives, the skills would atrophy and will firget everything. From my own experience: Languages aren't being taught at an earlier age in Europe. I knew almost no english before I started high school, and knew even less french and german. Next to that, the mandatory high school education made hardly any difference for me: english I learned by being in contact with it very frequently (internet, games, movies, tv), french I learned by actually living in France for a while.
The more multi-lingual countries, even within Europe, seem to be those with a home market not small enough to translate everything for. Relatively small countries with a high standard of living seem to do best even within Europe. Scandinavia and the Netherlands have always been better off than for example Germany, France or Spain, which have a population large enough to translate/dub everything for.
As for the Netherlands: You have 4-6 years of mandatory english, combined with 3-6 years German and French, depending on high school level. Additionally, at the highest level, you take 6 years of Latin or Greek, or both.
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On May 14 2012 00:47 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 00:44 Muki wrote: Not knowing a second language just really reinforces the stereotype we have in Europe about how dumb Americans are (no offense to fellow forumers here - but this is an existing issue). As I understand it's an education system thing, but it paints your country in a bad light. In Europe, even outside the EU I believe it's impossible to finish elementary education without knowing a second language at least on a basic level. What language is the second language you learned to get out of elementary school? Is it the same for most students? What language should be the second language you need to get out of elementary school in the USA?
English or German starts at age 7. After that, depending on the type of school you go to, you're either taught that language to the point you're speaking and writing fluently at age 18 or take a second language at 14 - if you're near a border then you can choose to learn the neighbouring language or a generic EU language like English, French, German, Italian.
English of course is the most prevalent. German is a logical choice in Europe especially if you neighbor a German speaking country. IIRC roughly 30% of all children learn 2 languages, and the majority of them learn English and German, but knowing any 2 foreign languages is a huge deal here when you seek a job. Note however, that this is only how it's taught but some languages in Europe differ greatly from others, so in reality many young people find it difficult to master languages. But it's generally agreed upon that it's worth it.
If I applied this logic to the USA, those who live close to the Mexican border should definitely learn Spanish at a semi-intense rate from early age, while those on the West Coast should learn the language of any Asian country that's economically relevant, while the East Coast should probably learn some EU language. But I see the problem here, as everyone in Europe can speak English already anyway. Anyway, I don't see how mandatory Spanish education in elementary school wouldn't help kids in the USA. There's not only Mexico but entire Hispanic America right under your nose there.
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I'm from Malaysia. Since we're a bit unique in our demographics having three primary cultures, we tend to have a minimum bilingual (despite how bad one's fluency may be). Generally the two cultures (Indian and Chinese) will have three languages in their grasps (Ignoring the fluency levels of course)
Here, we are committed to learn English and the National Language (Bahasa Malaysia) from the age of 7 onwards until we complete secondary school at an age of 17 - 18. Additional languages since as Chinese or Tamil is optional. If my memory serves me right, there aren't any other language options available until university. From there on, we are given the choice to further our education or join the work force.
In my current time in University, we use English but I suspect there are uncommon uses of the national languages during classes for the government / national universities.
Despite the many years, the fluency capability of our speaker varies largely especially in the rural areas due to less usage/ exposure and so on.
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On May 14 2012 00:10 Jinsho wrote: All I hear are excuses. One language = one worldview. If you are happy being stuck with only one language, you are to be pitied.
I don't know, if learning a second language would make me start to think like this I think I'll be okay sticking with English.
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United States2822 Posts
I'll make a note here that it seems very common for Asian-American parents and families to be bilingual in their native tongue (as far as speaking and listening goes.) Many Chinese-American families send their children to Chinese school and speak Chinese around the house. This is most common when the parents are immigrants, as their English skills are usually not at fluent or near-fluent levels. As you move down the generations, this becomes less and less common. For example, my sister and I speak very little Chinese as both of our parents are fluent in English, but both of them speak Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese for my dad, Mandarin and Shanghainese for my mom) because they were enforced to learn it by their parents.
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While I'm usually good at things I put effort into, I'm naturally terrible at learning foreign languages. I'm so bad at it that even I though I put effort into it at the beginning, I learnt next to nothing so basically gave up after the first year (learning it in school).
While it's good for you, I just can't learn it so I focus on the other subjects I'm actually good at (which angers my language teacher to the point where she's trying to me do afterschool sessions and get my family involved).
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On May 14 2012 00:44 Muki wrote: Not knowing a second language just really reinforces the stereotype we have in Europe about how dumb Americans are (no offense to fellow forumers here - but this is an existing issue). As I understand it's an education system thing, but it paints your country in a bad light. In Europe, even outside the EU I believe it's impossible to finish elementary education without knowing a second language at least on a basic level. Yes, because there is a direct correlation between cognitive capabilities and knowledge of multiple languages. IMO this concept is simple. For the vast majority of Americans, the costs of learning a second language outweigh the benefits.
And for the record, Europeans have a tendency to overestimate their English abilities.
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It is pretty similar in Australia. You get the choice at the start of high school (for us that is, so grade 7) between some languages. I'm not sure what it was like for other schools but we only had 2 - Japanese and Indonesian. In hind sight they are both actually really weird subjects to teach when there are so many languages that are easier to pick up and more commonly spoken. I would imagine students would probably find themselves more inspired to learn other languages as well simply because Indo and Japanese are really out there and there would be a pretty small amount of people at my school that would have any intention of travelling extensively to either of those countries later in life. I'm pretty sure I've heard of some schools doing French, which makes a lot more sense to me.
Once you get to Grade 11 you usually have a few more options open to you; French, Italian, Spanish etc, again I'm sure different schools would have some different languages but I think these would be the main 3. You start from scratch I believe, so if you picked language classes all through high school you're probably going to be stuck learning stuff you learnt 4 years ago again. Pretty much what I'm saying is our situation is pretty similar to yours - if you really want to learn a second language you have to go well out of your way to do so in most cases.
There are a decent number of ethnic groups in Australia but outside of those, second languages are really uncommon. We don't get any flak for it though (at least what I've seen) I think mainly because everyone is always so busy bagging out the US for whatever reason anyway we just avoid the bullet. Like someone already said, in some places there is this 'idiotic american' stereotype so I guess speaking only 1 language ties into that, whereas we aren't really looked at as 'idiots' by other countries as far as I know.
All that said I wish my school made learning a new language more interesting to it's students earlier. Now I'm almost 20 and find other languages fascinating, but learning from scratch is pretty rough!
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there is no optimal age to learn a language. at the very least, studies are still going on.
people make fun of americans for not speaking other languages but this is an immigrant country. come to los angeles, you'll find plenty of places where people don't speak english.
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Second languages aren't as important in the US because they don't have to be. As you mentioned, English is the most common and "useful" language in the world, like it or lump it.
Spanish has been becoming more and more important as the latin/hispanic population has been increasing. I don't think the US is "anti-language" (except for the extremists, but that is why they are extremists), there just hasn't been a need for another language.
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I didn't get an ounce of foreign language instruction until High school. Even then, the only requirement was to take a single(!) year of spanish or french. I went far above and beyond by taking 4 classes of Spanish. I live in an area with many immigrants, that's what pushed me to want to learn more Spanish than required.
There are plenty of places in America where you would never come into frequent contact with people who know another language than English. If you never come into contact with anyone like that you'd have barely any drive to learn. Saying that people who hardly ever come into contact with other languages should be pitied for their ignorance, is being ignorant of the circumstances of where they live.
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I'm somewhat doubtful on some of your points. As far as I know, learning languages has historically always been a major part of "education" in Europe. History as in several centuries ago. Antique, Middle ages, Renaissance- whether it was Greek or Latin, and later French, German, English- depending on the time, it was always considered a valueable if not integral part of a (noble) youths education. Most of this would not really be of "use" to the pupil (namely Latin) but it was still consider to be essential to learn other languages. As far as I remember (from my education, not from being there myself :O ), once universal education started in Europe the subjects were very basic (math and reading and agriculture I assume). The common workers "did not need" to have a "higher" education. It will take someone more knowledgeable on (American) socio- historic matters to explain when/how/why American education opted for the latter paradigm for education, especially in a multicultural (-lingual) country where learning several languages should have been such an obvious advantage. Weird.
Probably because MURICA (obligatory Eurohate).
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On May 14 2012 02:12 Monsen wrote: I'm somewhat doubtful on some of your points. As far as I know, learning languages has historically always been a major part of "education" in Europe. History as in several centuries ago. Antique, Middle ages, Renaissance- whether it was Greek or Latin, and later French, German, English- depending on the time, it was always considered a valueable if not integral part of a (noble) youths education. Most of this would not really be of "use" to the pupil (namely Latin) but it was still consider to be essential to learn other languages. As far as I remember (from my education, not from being there myself :O ), once universal education started in Europe the subjects were very basic (math and reading and agriculture I assume). The common workers "did not need" to have a "higher" education. It will take someone more knowledgeable on (American) socio- historic matters to explain when/how/why American education opted for the latter paradigm for education, especially in a multicultural (-lingual) country where learning several languages should have been such an obvious advantage. Weird.
Probably because MURICA (obligatory Eurohate).
But as many other posters have mentioned, Europeans actually get a chance to use other languages frequently (e.g. at work). This is likely because European countries are much smaller, so you'd get more chances to leave your own country or come into contact with people that are moving between countries. In America, you would almost never need to speak another language besides English, except if you need to talk to the Hispanic cleaning staff or something.
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I have to agree with you. Getting access to foreign languages is the best way to learn. I've lived in both China, Sweden and the US. In Sweden at least, everyone is able to fluently speak English. Comparing to learning Spanish in school in USA, it's not that they learn more. However, its unavoidable to get away from American culture here. I played Starcraft and learned the unit names before I started learning English in school. Big blockbusters are all American, people watch a lot of prime-time American shows and The Simpsons Most importantly, the shows are never dubbed like in Germany, Spain, etc.
Learning a language is so hard if you are not immersed in it and forced to use it. I learned English in approximately two to three months almost from scratch by moving to the US. I had forgotten all my Swedish after 3 years in the US, however, it took like one month to become fluent again.
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I speak English, can understand (but can't speak) Hungarian and Spanish, getting into learning Korean, studied Latin for 3 years, and going to spend the next 3 years learning Spanish fully.
But I can only fully speak English.
Is that bad?
Technically, according to those in the thread, I would only know one language, and that is a bad thing.
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I'm actually quite disappointed with how things worked in Canada. I remember taking French from about the age of seven, but throughout the years it was incredibly basic and anything that was new and interesting would leak out of everyone's brains and we'd start over the next year. On top of that, we (I speak for my school district btw) had zero incentive to actually become competent, as language courses were completely elective in high school. I can't blame the teachers too much, but they also did a really poor job convincing us children how useful having a second language is, as it was pretty much like "Miss, why do we need to learn French?", "Just stop talking and do it." There is of course the reality that we spoke English anyway, so one could argue that it's less important for us, but Canada is becoming extremely multicultural in some areas and you'll be able to find use out of just about any language. I pretty much gave up my German ever helping me unless traveling there, but at work I've ran into several German couples who speak next to no English and I'm actually able to help them with most things even with a very basic knowledge of the language (and monumentally terrible grammar.)
TL;DR In my school district we were pretty much forced to repeat the basics of French from a young age without anyone explaining why it was important (believe me, there are reasons), only to have it become completely optional in highschool, where many people just took Spanish or something else anyway.
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In Sweden, you start to learn English at school in the third grade at the latest, that's then you're 9 years old. In the later stages of elementary school, you also need to study a second language, and it depends on which school what languages you can pick, but it's almost always possible to study Spanish, French or German. You keep studying English, as an obligatory course, all the way until the end of high school, so that's about 9 years of constant English studies. The secondary language is usually only obligatory for 2 years, but it's also very common to study more languages in high school.
Personally, I studied Spanish for 3 years in the end of elementary school, then studied Latin and Italian in high school.
That said, I'm not fluent or even decent at Spanish nor Italian, but the studies, especially latin, made a HUGE difference when I decided to learn Japanese later on, which I speak fluently now.
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On May 14 2012 01:35 scintilliaSD wrote: I'll make a note here that it seems very common for Asian-American parents and families to be bilingual in their native tongue (as far as speaking and listening goes.) Many Chinese-American families send their children to Chinese school and speak Chinese around the house. This is most common when the parents are immigrants, as their English skills are usually not at fluent or near-fluent levels. As you move down the generations, this becomes less and less common. For example, my sister and I speak very little Chinese as both of our parents are fluent in English, but both of them speak Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese for my dad, Mandarin and Shanghainese for my mom) because they were enforced to learn it by their parents.
I'm a second generation Chinese-American so I speak Cantonese fluently as well as English. Like scintilliaSD said in the quote, I grew up speaking mostly Cantonese at home. Unfortunately, not everyone has the same experience I had growing up. Many families encourage speaking English as a way to help both parents and children integrate into American culture. It's really hard getting by in America without learning English.
That being said, my school required we learn either French or Spanish started in 5th grade. However, teaching focused on grammar and syntax rather than actual speaking, I retained very little of it. Today, I can understand written French but I cannot really hold a conversation.
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There's nothing wrong with speaking one language only. One just restricts oneself and is a sign of illiteracy. Nothing more, nothing less and not something to be made fun of.
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in my school, you were forced to learn English in year 5, in year 7, you had to add another language (French or Latin) and could go for an optional 3rd (Spanish or Russian) later on.
Also, there were quite a few exchange programs going on (I spent three months in Australia in grade 10)
However, in my hometown, I could have also chosen a school that teaches you Latin and classical Greek from year 5, and English later on.
My first hand experience in Australia was that their language skills were laughable, all the exchange students couldn't form a simple German sentence.
And of course I do feel kind of superior for being fluent in two languages, having mastered Latin far enough to translate Roman poetry and understanding a lot of Spanish and bits of pieces of Czech.
Nowadays however, the beginnings of English are taught in year three, in a playful way of course, with enacting the Rudolf the red-nosed reindeer song and similar things.
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In vietnam, we began studying english at the age of 7, though I heard they changed the policy now to year 6 instead of 1.
EDIT: Though most people's english ended up crap because they lack the real life application. The most optimum way is ofc, live in a foreign country at early age while still speak your parent's language at home.
EDIT2: Also people must consider that learning english in non-english speaking country is so much different than learning other languages in an english speaking country. Such as in vietnam, english is such an important skill that if accompanied by any other skill, you're almost guaranteed a very very good pay. While I don't think learning vietnamese can really help your job prospect in australia or america.
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Where I'm from (in the north of Scotland), a lot of people are brought up speaking Gaelic from a young age, within their family/friends etc, but they're just as comfortable talking in English at school or work, works well enough.
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Here in Nova Scotia (not sure how immersion works in other provinces) you can take french immersion from your first year of school, when you're around 4-5. In immersion everything up until grade 10 is all in french. So math, sciences, social studies... is all in French the only thing we didn't do in French was english I myself was placed in this program and I am completely bilingual (English+French)
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On May 14 2012 04:05 Fallians wrote:Here in Nova Scotia (not sure how immersion works in other provinces) you can take french immersion from your first year of school, when you're around 4-5. In immersion everything up until grade 10 is all in french. So math, sciences, social studies... is all in French the only thing we didn't do in French was english I myself was placed in this program and I am completely bilingual (English+French)
I'm from Canada too(from British Columbia though). There are french immersion schools here, but most of the schools aren't french immersion. In elementary I saw a lot of basic french but I never learned much, In high school we saw very basic french too and learned next to nothing. Most of the students in my classes did not learn much french either, so I'm disappointed with the school system here as it is very bad to learn a second language with. I myself know english and spanish(learned it from parents), and I'm learning japanese on my own. The classes for second languages were also very bad sometimes, for example, the spanish teacher in my high school spoke spanish badly, he probably barely even knew spanish.
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In the UK there's an arrogance about second language because let's face it... the pre-eminent language in world diplomacy, business, everything, is English. I'm personally attempting to remedy this(in terms of myself).
I think the problem is two fold. God awful language teachers who only teach language because they took a language degree and realised it's a waste of time and the only thing they could do was teach (obviously an exaggeration, but it's not far wide of the truth). The second reason is that western culture is dictated by the US at the moment, fashion, TV, films yada yada. I see no foreign films or TV shows in British television, with the exception of BBC TV 4's recent foreign film month. There's no exposure and not interest from that. On the other hand, TV shows like friends are popular right across Europe and are an accessible way of developing language skills.
Oh not to mention that the opinion is that when we go on holiday to the continent, everyone speaks English so why bother? (again, certainly not my opinion)
EDIT: currently at university in Wales, and they're attempting to promote a bi-lingual nation here and I know that in Scotland and NI there are pockets of Gaelic speakers. It's a nice thought but it seems to be, in the case of Wales, promoting nationalism (rejecting the UK model) and separating north from south(the populous south seems to not give a shit about Welsh).
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i learned french in high school, and japanese when i lived in japan. i am back in the states and am forgetting all my japanese, and forgot french a long time ago. when you never have the option of using the language, you forget it. i think people should attempt to be bilingual, but if you arent, you shouldnt be ridiculed. its only in countries where they speak multiple languages (or you are in a profession that requires multiple languages) that it is a necessity. living in california, even my friends who speak spanish are forgetting the language.
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Here in British Columbia(education is provincial here in Canada) you have to take french from grade 4 to 8 but the teachers are generally pretty bad at teaching it. There is also French immersion like what Fallians said above. In high school you can take Spanish, French, Punjabi, Japanese, German, aboriginal languages, etc depending on what school you go to. However very few non-immigrant British Columbians speak any language other than English well. I think that many Canadians feel that learning other languages is sort of useless because so many people speak English as a second or third language.
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On May 14 2012 00:01 micronesia wrote: Knowing two, or more languages is known to be very good for you! I won't go into the reasons why, as I don't think there will be much disagreement there.
What I have noticed is that citizens of the USA are much less likely to be bilingual+ than residents of most other countries. Most Europeans other than in the UK speak English as a second or third language. This also shouldn't be much of a surprise for most of you reading this.
The thing I do want to go into a bit is how Americans are treated for this. I often see lots of hate because many, if not most Americans only speak one language fluently. Most of this hate, I find (not all) comes from people who don't really have a right to complain.
I've never really seen this. What I have seen is when native English speakers make fun of someone else's English they get shut down pretty harshly. But even then it's not hate. It's more like ridicule.
I don't think it's very common though. Maybe a little more common from Americans than in the UK. But some native accents from Britain are harder to understand than bad English so I guess they just have higher tolerance.
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I don't blame Anglophones for not speaking a second language. I pretty much share your entire point of view, with one enforcement: there is simply less need to learn a second language if you know English. Most foreign countries offer assistance in English, whereas this is less true for other languages.
For example, it's taking me forever to learn Japanese in Tokyo because I can get by perfect fine with just English and Chinese, there is no need for me to learn the language. Whereas I learned Japanese much better when I studied in a little rural town middle of nowhere because no one spoke English.
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On May 14 2012 04:05 Fallians wrote:Here in Nova Scotia (not sure how immersion works in other provinces) you can take french immersion from your first year of school, when you're around 4-5. In immersion everything up until grade 10 is all in french. So math, sciences, social studies... is all in French the only thing we didn't do in French was english I myself was placed in this program and I am completely bilingual (English+French)
I learned French for so many years all the way up to grade 10, then I forgot everything since I stopped learning it.
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English speaking people should learn broken english as second language... while it's not much of an issue anymore i remember when i was younger it was a lot easier understanding non-native english speakers than the native ones because the natives would speak so fast and often use hard words edit: oh and +1 criticizing english speaking people for only knowing 1 language is ridiculous, learning a language you don't have any use of is extremely hard for most people and i doubt all that time while somewhat beneficial could probably be spent on a lot more useful stuff.
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I agree americans and others shouldn't be ridiculed for being monolingual. However, I think it's something worth discussing, because if language education is bad in the US (and other countries), I think it's a good thing to work to make it better. Learning a second language shouldn't be mandatory, but should be heavily encouraged and supported, because it's definitely a mind-opening experience.
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I learned other languages out of pure coincidence.When I was young(like 6-7 years old) I watched a lot of German tv because they had all the cartoons that Croatian tv did not have and since Germans synchronize pretty much every tv show/cartoon/movie that isn't German,I think Pokemon pretty much taught me the basic German words and vocabulary.Pokemon is so visual and the moves that they do is basically what the pokemon are made off(kinda) so it was really easy to learn.For instance,if a geodude(a rock pokemon that is pretty much a floating boulder with arms) used rock throw I learned that its called steinwurf. English was even simpler because all the nintendo/sega/snes games were in the English language and later on I just carried it over to the PC and playstation and always selected english by default instead of German or something because I gotten used to it so much. We had different language classes in school as well but my German and English was so far ahead by that time that I was usually napping during the classes or doing something else.This hurt me a bit because I literally have no idea about German or English grammer definitions and the rules(well I do actually but far less than I should with the level of vocabulary that I posses) of how you construct sentences because everything I ever learned was by ear and it all came natural. In retrospect I understand where the OP is coming from because if I had not learned these languages without even thinking about it and by just doing what I liked than I'm pretty sure I would not have learned it later on. I tried learning french for a while but it was incredibly tedious to do it the old fashion way in a classroom.I didn't like it and I was bored so I gave it up. I'm not saying that the way I learned languages was good,because it did leave me with a lot of holes especially as far as grammer is concerned,but than again compared with other people from my country my vocabulary far exceeds that of an average person that speaks these languages.
To the Germans out there,I know it's hard to believe that RTL has taught anyone anything but here I am Although now that I think about it,the program wasn't so god awful as it is now,at least that's how I have it in my memory,I don't watch tv anymore really. I remember back when Galileo(a show on ProSieben) actually taught you something about how things are made,animals etc.Nowadays they go around and test water slides with naked chicks rofl,at least that's what I saw last time I watched,must be like 2-3 years since than.O boy.
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If you can communicate with anyone you need to communicate with, who cares how many languages you know. Learning a second language in the united states is really not necessary, I speak english and french but my knowledge of french has pretty much gone to waste because I have no use for it, and knowing two languages does not make me feel smarter or more worldly like some of the people in this thread seem to be implying.
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I started learning English when I was 8 I believe. Afaik they just got it in to the schools from this very young age(I think kids learn it from 6 now, since that's the year they go to the school now). Anyway, I kept learning only English till pretty much now, 16(now 17 because I was born in March). Now I am learning French and Latin. I have two 45-minute lessons of French per week and one 45-minute lesson of Latin per week. I could pick German instead of French. I am really happy I am learning more languages because I am quite a fast learner and I like different languages. My knowledge of English was mostly based on good guesses and A LOT of INTERNET and GAMES! I'd gladly learn more languages, like Ukrainian or Japanese, but I'd need to do it myself/get money out of nowhere.
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Funny thing for me, I learnt English before my mother tongue.
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Hmm, does knowing multiple programming languages count?
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On May 14 2012 07:53 phantaxx wrote: If you can communicate with anyone you need to communicate with, who cares how many languages you know. Learning a second language in the united states is really not necessary, I speak english and french but my knowledge of french has pretty much gone to waste because I have no use for it, and knowing two languages does not make me feel smarter or more worldly like some of the people in this thread seem to be implying.
Probably because you thought it would be uselesss anyway when you were still in the process of learning it. Knowing a foreign language is not just about communication, it opens up a whole new world for literature, news source etc. You get to know an entire country/culture through it's language (I agree this can be boring for some - but not all).
For me German is a secondary language, I very rarely have to write anything in German. But I always get to read or listen something - even if it's just the German wikipedia articles or a simple news report on TV (though I find those terrible and brainwashing lol). French and German language areas are large enough to stay relevant even in these English dominated times, given you live in the Western world. In my opinion not everyone can find a meaningful purpose to foreign languages, but in the times of the internet, we can put any language skill to use, be it for learning or for entertainment.
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It's really how often you are exposed to other languages, rather than the education system per se. For example, here in Taiwan pretty much everyone nowadays starts learning English from a fairly young age, and by the time they reach college most are *somewhat* literate - much better at reading than writing - but in general cannot speak or understand spoken English to save their lives.
As some of the European posters here have indicated, the language of the pop culture you consume plays a large role here - while many Germans may grow up listening to English-language music, watching American movies and TV series, here in Taiwan, the Japanese and Korean pop influence is a bit stronger, and while people still love to much American/English stuff, it's not nearly the same as it is in Europe.
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On May 14 2012 05:39 Tobberoth wrote: I agree americans and others shouldn't be ridiculed for being monolingual. However, I think it's something worth discussing, because if language education is bad in the US (and other countries), I think it's a good thing to work to make it better. Learning a second language shouldn't be mandatory, but should be heavily encouraged and supported, because it's definitely a mind-opening experience.
True and I agree 100% but the problem is, there is no go-to second language to focus on. Even in my own studies, I tried to determine the most useful second language, and it really just comes down to where I personally want to go in my life. No other language comes even close to the universal utility of the English language. Maybe in 20 years if China (or any other country for that matter) becomes the world's next superpower we will all start learning that country's language as our second language.
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