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Introduction or: Where is Sen?+ Show Spoiler + Hi guys!
To my and hopefully your excitement, i created a list of the best 30 foreign players. As you may know, those lists are rly subjective. I try to look at achievements and latest results, but its unavoidable to get personal opinions into this. There is no such thing as the perfect „ranking“, but i enjoy doing those, most ppl enjoy reading them, but not many ppl put rankings out there. My ranking is purely about foreign players and i exclude asian, non korean players as well – that means you wont find chinese or taiwanese players in my ranking. The simple reason being: i dont have much information about these scenes. I obviously know that Sen, Xigua and also MacSed are great players, but its impossible to compare them to the players in EU and NA. So you could consider it a „Western Foreigner Top 30“.
I put quite some work into it and i hope i get at least some reads, since i think a ranking made by a random person should be posted as a blog and not as a thread in the general section, even though it might end up with no responses at all.
So here is the list for this month! (i try to release one every month)
The following „20“ and others:+ Show Spoiler +
Bly LiveZerg DarKFoRcE LoWeLy KiLLeR Vortix Snute Ostojiy TLO biGs JohnnyRecco Following jEcho Tefel Ziktomini HayprO LaLuSh Suppy ViBe Scarlett sYz Cytoplasm TargA mOOnGlaDe Delphi roof Alastor SortOf CatZ Destiny Protosser Machine
ClouD DieStar SjoW Naama Following Strelok GoOdy KawaiiRice Jinro Tarson Satiini DBS qxc dde mErZ KraSS Drewbie theognis
White-Ra Axslav BlinG Monchi Babyknight Following TT1 Welmu Bischu elfi Adelscott Seiplo Nony Pomi For the fans of STATS+ Show Spoiler + Rank 1 | 30 Pts. Rank 2 | 27 Rank 3 | 24 Rank 4 | 22 Rank 5 | 20 Rank 6 | 19 Rank 7 | 18 Rank 8 | 17 Rank 9 | 16 Rank 10 | 15 Rank 11 | 14 . Rank 20 | 9,5 . Rank 30 | 4,5 Following 1 | 3,5 Following 2 | 2
Race distribution1. 207,5 Pts. 2. 193 Pts. 3. 144,5 Pts.Top "5" Teamsnotice that only foreign players count in this ranking1. Quantic Gaming | 58,5 Pts. 2. Evil Geniuses | 56,5 Pts. 3. Millenium | 46 Pts. 4. Team Empire | 41 Pts. 5. Team Liquid | 39 Pts.6. RoxKis | 36 Pts. 7. Mousesports | 33 Pts. Top "5" Nations1. Sweden | 103,5 Pts. 2. USA | 52,5 Pts. 3. Poland | 47,5 Pts. 4. Ukraine | 47 Pts. 5. Russia | 46 Pts.6. Germany | 42 Pts. 7. France | 37 Pts. Please leave a comment about how you like my ranking, what u think i could do better and stuff like that. Which players are overrated? which are underrated? Did i leave out players completely? Ty for clicking & reading once more ! + Show Spoiler +
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I would like to put ziktomini a little bit higher, firstly his results and secondly just watching his play is pretty incredible, absolutely solid zerg
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not sure how you can rank demuslim over zikto, considering he got a beat down in wcs
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u forgot TLO, hes nowhere to be found and also I'd put Beasty higher and for example Happy lower.
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On July 13 2012 01:46 Fleuria wrote: not sure how you can rank demuslim over zikto, considering he got a beat down in wcs
Ziktomini played incredibly well, but you have to concider: Demuslim is better vs P Demuslim performs at a high level a lot longer Demuslim had an incredible run at NASL this season
I would never judge players from one performance. Players need to show results over a period of time - Illusion played well for 2 months before getting listed at all as an example. Its Ziktominis first mentioning in the list at all. He plays well in July again? well, we will see what happens then
On July 13 2012 01:52 GoSuChicken wrote: u forgot TLO.
i didnt
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United States8476 Posts
Illusion should be way higher, definitely higher than nightend, idra, select, and demuslim. Around sheth
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Lacking some players, and IMO some are there for free.
Idra shouldn't even show up. Ziktomini and Johnnyrecco are pretty good and could be included, as well as Killer, Babyknight, Vortix and Naama.
Major could probably be up higher while Nani should probably top Stephano by now (and I really dislike Nani, but his play is the best)
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On July 13 2012 01:52 NrGmonk wrote: Illusion should be way higher, definitely higher than nightend, idra, select, and demuslim. Around sheth
talent-wise - of course.
but watch his TLPD: He gets invited to many things and plays great games against top notch players. He even wins some maps. But to be honest, he also loses all of them in the end. Its hard times for terrans, he still didnt achieve anything major since his IPL4 run if you watch his results closely.
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I think MajOr should be way higher, he's arguably the best non korean terran. Did you make the pictures? They're pretty cool
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On July 13 2012 01:53 mordk wrote: Lacking some players, and IMO some are there for free.
Idra shouldn't even show up. Ziktomini and Johnnyrecco are pretty good and could be included, as well as Killer, Babyknight, Vortix and Naama.
Major could probably be up higher while Nani should probably top Stephano by now (and I really dislike Nani, but his play is the best)
hm. if you include zikto, JRecco, Killer, Babyknight, Vortix and Naama - who do you exclude? Its 30 players. it will remain 30 players. i cant make it 35 just to mention more names.
Thats what the "following 20" are for - and all the names u mentioned are listed there.
Oh and about IdrA - who of those would u think could 3-0 a group with Bly (who many ppl argued not being on the last list since he killed tons of koreans in teamleagues), ClouD, BlinG so easily? You may like or hate him, but by watching his play, it simply wouldnt be fair to not list him at all.
On July 13 2012 01:59 iAmiAnC wrote: I think MajOr should be way higher, he's arguably the best non korean terran.
All we saw from MajOr in the last 6 months was the win of a TSL qualifier - players like Kas and Beasty achieved that as well - and probably 20 other things in that amount of time. How can u even argue about him being "the best non korean terran"? I dont like to judge by feelings too much, i judge by results first. My impression of him is greater than "rank 30" obviously, but that goes for many players. Its always a mix of: 1. current results 2. results in the past year 3. overall impression 4. estimated talent of the player
dont get me wrong, i like u guys arguing about the list - thats what its made for
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On July 13 2012 01:59 KalWarkov wrote:All we saw from MajOr in the last 6 months was the win of a TSL qualifier - players like Kas and Beasty achieved that as well - and probably 20 other things in that amount of time. How can u even argue about him being "the best non korean terran"? I dont like to judge by feelings too much, i judge by results first. My impression of him is greater than "rank 30" obviously, but that goes for many players. Its always a mix of: 1. current results 2. results in the past year 3. overall impression 4. estimated talent of the player dont get me wrong, i like u guys arguing about the list - thats what its made for
I agree he hasn't been doing much tournament wise. I was basing it mainly on his overall skill level, his talent, his mechanics and the fact he's been quietly practising his ass off in korea for 6 months or something like that. His performance in the korean GM ladder is also pretty impressive.
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On July 13 2012 01:59 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:53 mordk wrote: Lacking some players, and IMO some are there for free.
Idra shouldn't even show up. Ziktomini and Johnnyrecco are pretty good and could be included, as well as Killer, Babyknight, Vortix and Naama.
Major could probably be up higher while Nani should probably top Stephano by now (and I really dislike Nani, but his play is the best) hm. if you include zikto, JRecco, Killer, Babyknight, Vortix and Naama - who do you exclude? Its 30 players. it will remain 30 players. i cant make it 35 just to mention more names. Thats what the "following 20" are for - and all the names u mentioned are listed there. Oh and about IdrA - who of those would u think could 3-0 a group with Bly (who many ppl argued not being on the last list since he killed tons of koreans in teamleagues), ClouD, BlinG so easily? You may like or hate him, but by watching his play, it simply wouldnt be fair to not list him at all.
Which is mostly why I used the word "could", it's pretty hard to remove anyone. Regarding Idra, you say Maj0r can't be higher up because all we've seen from him is a TSL quali. Well, all we've seen from Idra for a long time is a 3-0 HSC group and (I believe) a good performance in NASL groups. Everything else has been losses. I'd definitely not list him. I usually dislike Idra, but I don't let that contaminate my assessment of a player's skills. For reference, I really dislike Nani, but I think he should top this list over Stephano.
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I like your list. I actually like your list more than almost all the similar lists I've seen so far, including some of the official TL ones (for SC2),
Yours reminds me the most of Power Ranks of old (albeit without the awesome descriptions) more than any other. You take into account both current ability, results, but also partly talent that you personally believe in and partly recognition of the player's ability and reputation even if they haven't been doing too well lately. It's a really nice mix of all of these factors!
You should consider adding some descriptions and thoughts behind the rankings though.
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Kalwarkow, you once again managed to get a great overview of the current top 30 of foreigners.
I have been unable to find any suggestions of changing your list, couldn't come up with any. Looking forward to next month's list !
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thanks a lot, rly appreciate it
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Very, very good list indeed. I would put NaNiWa first though and Sase a bit further down (5th?), with people like NightEnd or Feast a tad bit higher. But hey, no one will totally agree on a 30 people ranking right? Best I've seen for SC2.
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Very good list, feels very objective and thought out.
Presumably som players are a lot higher or lower like Fraer for example, but i agree with you that players should be able to prove themselves over a larger period of time, it's the only way to do a good list.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:55 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:52 NrGmonk wrote: Illusion should be way higher, definitely higher than nightend, idra, select, and demuslim. Around sheth talent-wise - of course. but watch his TLPD: He gets invited to many things and plays great games against top notch players. He even wins some maps. But to be honest, he also loses all of them in the end. Its hard times for terrans, he still didnt achieve anything major since his IPL4 run if you watch his results closely. My argument relies not much on his current results, but rather two other factors. First, I never thought you properly accounted for his results at IPL and those MLGs, which I mentioned in previous iterations of your rankings. This goes beyond just illusion, as I feel that you tend to lean towards the conservative side of things when you do these rankings. That is, you're reluctant to push people up or down too much in a given month. For example, I believe you're keeping players like Select, Morrow, and Demuslim a bit too high based on their previous skill/result, while they haven't been preforming nearly as well recently. Which brings me to my other point. Rather than Illusion moving up, I just think a lot of players should be moved down a lot, such as those I mentioned previously, because they've had really poor results recently. If you want to talk about TLPDs, look at any one of those players' TLPDs I mentioned previously. In the same token, imo Idra should have been put much lower the last few months, but he did somewhat decently at HSC. Also, I question what Nightend has done in the last few months.
Anyways, good job with the ranks. I personally think any ranking made by just one person will have biases, but you pretty much did the best job I could imagine, and I'm just nit picking.
TLDR: Didn't appropriately raise Illusion in previous months, also imo other players are too high rather than Illusion too low General criticism: rankings don't change enough month to month
PS: With regards to the comment on TL Power Rankings, those rankings are meant to hype and entertain as well as rank. That's why you have somewhat questionable calls like putting Symbol and DRG together. If we get you to comment, talk, and somewhat complain, then it's working. ^.~
Also, it's really really hard to rank Koreans and foreigners together. For a fun exercise for anyone reading this, try to rank any one of Monster, Sniper, Dream, asd, Lure, and jks in here. O_O This is about the time I kinda give up and start writing about pokemon.
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On July 13 2012 07:59 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:55 KalWarkov wrote:On July 13 2012 01:52 NrGmonk wrote: Illusion should be way higher, definitely higher than nightend, idra, select, and demuslim. Around sheth talent-wise - of course. but watch his TLPD: He gets invited to many things and plays great games against top notch players. He even wins some maps. But to be honest, he also loses all of them in the end. Its hard times for terrans, he still didnt achieve anything major since his IPL4 run if you watch his results closely. My argument relies not much on his current results, but rather two other factors. First, I never thought you properly accounted for his results at IPL and those MLGs, which I mentioned in previous iterations of your rankings. This goes beyond just illusion, as I feel that you tend to lean towards the conservative side of things when you do these rankings. That is, you're reluctant to push people up or down too much in a given month. For example, I believe you're keeping players like Select, Morrow, and Demuslim a bit too high based on their previous skill/result, while they haven't been preforming nearly as well recently. Which brings me to my other point. Rather than Illusion moving up, I just think a lot of players should be moved down a lot, such as those I mentioned previously, because they've had really poor results recently. If you want to talk about TLPDs, look at any one of those players' TLPDs I mentioned previously. In the same token, imo Idra should have been put much lower the last few months, but he did somewhat decently at HSC. Also, I question what Nightend has done in the last few months. Anyways, good job with the ranks. I personally think any ranking made by just one person will have biases, but you pretty much did the best job I could imagine, and I'm just nit picking. TLDR: Didn't appropriately raise Illusion in previous months, also imo other players are too high rather than Illusion too low General criticism: rankings don't change enough month to month PS: With regards to the comment on TL Power Rankings, those rankings are meant to hype and entertain as well as rank. That's why you have somewhat questionable calls like putting Symbol and DRG together. If we get you to comment, talk, and somewhat complain, then it's working. ^.~ Also, it's really really hard to rank Koreans and foreigners together. For a fun exercise for anyone reading this, try to rank any one of Monster, Sniper, Dream, asd, Lure, and jks in here. O_O This is about the time I kinda give up and start writing about pokemon.
I would put Sniper 3rd , Monster 4th :D
edit: Would say that youve been very kind to MorroW (and some others are very questionable for me) imo, there are a lot of players below him that I see as superior players to him atm (might just be me, I dunno)
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Updated some stats for fun
thanks for all the feedback! keep posting :D
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USA 2nd best foreigner nation? doesn't seem right at all.........
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I like Fraer, he seems really good. He could definitely be better than quite a few above him. Morrow Has dissappointed me of late.
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what has huk showed us to be that high hes done nothing for ages now
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On July 14 2012 01:04 SabreUK wrote: USA 2nd best foreigner nation? doesn't seem right at all.........
it probably isnt right if you would put them in a clanwar against russia, ukraine or poland. BUT there are quite a few low tier americans that are good. names like ViBe, theognis, KawaiiRice, qxc or Nony (to just name a few). Those grant 2 points in my "stats" and make up for a very high tier player all together.
The stats dont reflect my opinion at all - they are just a fun little thing to take off my list. Also note that SeleCt is listed as american which is debateable.
Just to give u an example for how the points of the USA come together + Show Spoiler + Sheth - 10.5 SeleCt - 10 IdrA - 9 Illusion - 5.5 Axlav - 3.5 Machine, Destiny, ViBe, KawaiiRice, qxc, theognis, Nony - 2
--> 52.5 points and rank 2.
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Finally . Good ranking like always. The top9 seems very accurate. I would have put Fraer and Major in as well. Fraer eventually even higher (I think he is the best roxkis player right now). I would have also placed vortix in after his TSL qualification and Empire all-kill. Drop-out ToD or Nightend. Morrow didnt have a good months and could have dropped a few spots. Don't understand why Sheth dropped that much.
@NrgMonk: You want the ranking to be more based on recent results (I agree), but you want Illusion placed higher because of IPL and MLG? If you look at Illusion results since beginning June, he had a 41% winrate, winning series against STX, Bubbles, Binski, Hawk, Clue, Chobittsu and theognis. He only recently beat good players in Select and Sheth during the TSL qualifier (not accounted in TLPD). I think Illusion is pretty well placed around ~30.
With Stephanos lazyness and Naniwa competing with the best koreans, we might have to question the top spot soon. But its right for now.
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idra is way to high in my opinion. beasty to low. snd strelok way to low imo
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Sweden is so overpowered... I hope Blizzard can somehow nerf that country.
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First of all, loving these lists. Keep up the good work! Completely agree with top 9, gets harder after that...
I'd switch Dimaga and Lucifron, due to Dimaga's silver medal in Dreamhack in june, and Lucifron not really doing anything noteworthy of late..
Dunno if Socke really deserves to climb up a spot after a bad showing at Homestorycup...Socke and Hasuobs seem very evenly matched to me, hard to say which is better.
ToD, Titan and Nightend has also looked quite unimpressive lately sadly. :/
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Agreed with the other guy, this ranking is way too conservative. Your process of ranking is "if they don't get top 4 then I'm not switching spots". Seriously, some of these guys are way outdated and a lot of the other guys deserve many more spots right now. Select for one, but he's not the only one. Illusion deserves to be much higher on that list, invite or not, if idra was the one who beat some of the players he did I guarantee you'd have put idra in the top 10. And uhh, morrow? Not to mention beastyqt? Horrible spots for each of them.
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On July 14 2012 08:53 OKMarius wrote:First of all, loving these lists. Keep up the good work! Completely agree with top 9, gets harder after that... I'd switch Dimaga and Lucifron, due to Dimaga's silver medal in Dreamhack in june, and Lucifron not really doing anything noteworthy of late.. Dunno if Socke really deserves to climb up a spot after a bad showing at Homestorycup...Socke and Hasuobs seem very evenly matched to me, hard to say which is better. ToD, Titan and Nightend has also looked quite unimpressive lately sadly. :/
I think his last list was shortly before the last MLG, so Socke beating DRG there influences his position. In general I agree with the individual ranking, but the nation ranking seems a bit wrong; if you give points for Nony or Destiny, you could list parts of EPS and EAS in Germany (for example Tarra, Hanfy, Akki) as well as bigger parts EPS Poland (Indy, Matiz, maybe Krolu) French scene (Dayshi(!), Eeel) and so on.
Btw., totally unrelated, what happened to Aristeo? He looked very promising a few months ago and now he just vanished.
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On July 14 2012 21:17 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 08:53 OKMarius wrote:First of all, loving these lists. Keep up the good work! Completely agree with top 9, gets harder after that... I'd switch Dimaga and Lucifron, due to Dimaga's silver medal in Dreamhack in june, and Lucifron not really doing anything noteworthy of late.. Dunno if Socke really deserves to climb up a spot after a bad showing at Homestorycup...Socke and Hasuobs seem very evenly matched to me, hard to say which is better. ToD, Titan and Nightend has also looked quite unimpressive lately sadly. :/ I think his last list was shortly before the last MLG, so Socke beating DRG there influences his position. In general I agree with the individual ranking, but the nation ranking seems a bit wrong; if you give points for Nony or Destiny, you could list parts of EPS and EAS in Germany (for example Tarra, Hanfy, Akki) as well as bigger parts EPS Poland (Indy, Matiz, maybe Krolu) French scene (Dayshi(!), Eeel) and so on. Btw., totally unrelated, what happened to Aristeo? He looked very promising a few months ago and now he just vanished.
hm, destiny, catz and nony were rly hard calls for a "2 points" spot honestly. Aristeo seems inactive i think. he played quite well for some time.
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On July 14 2012 09:19 Itsmedudeman wrote: Agreed with the other guy, this ranking is way too conservative. Your process of ranking is "if they don't get top 4 then I'm not switching spots". Seriously, some of these guys are way outdated and a lot of the other guys deserve many more spots right now. Select for one, but he's not the only one. Illusion deserves to be much higher on that list, invite or not, if idra was the one who beat some of the players he did I guarantee you'd have put idra in the top 10. And uhh, morrow? Not to mention beastyqt? Horrible spots for each of them.
Look at my post. If you want a less conservative ranking, you can't place Illusion very high. Select didnt do anything besides decent runs in the TSL. Please have less european/american bias. Thats not only for you.
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i guess i was a bit too kind to morrow and huk... we will see next month
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United States8476 Posts
On July 14 2012 03:55 00Visor wrote: @NrgMonk: You want the ranking to be more based on recent results (I agree), but you want Illusion placed higher because of IPL and MLG? If you look at Illusion results since beginning June, he had a 41% winrate, winning series against STX, Bubbles, Binski, Hawk, Clue, Chobittsu and theognis. He only recently beat good players in Select and Sheth during the TSL qualifier (not accounted in TLPD). I think Illusion is pretty well placed around ~30. Let me be a bit more clear on what I meant. I personally think Illusion should have jumped a lot higher a long time ago based on his MLG/IPL results and then steadily decreased in ranking since. I would also personally drop Select and Demuslim below or at least around Illusion's ranking. Idra should have been below Illusion the previous months, although now it's debatable. Nightend, I feel, should drop. Feast possibly as well. So basically I would have had Illusion around 15-20ish right around after IPL. And although his results have worsened since then, I would argue that most people in the 15-30 range have as well, notably the names I mentioned before. With this method, Illusion would be around 22ish instead of 28 where he is now.
On July 15 2012 03:09 00Visor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 09:19 Itsmedudeman wrote: Agreed with the other guy, this ranking is way too conservative. Your process of ranking is "if they don't get top 4 then I'm not switching spots". Seriously, some of these guys are way outdated and a lot of the other guys deserve many more spots right now. Select for one, but he's not the only one. Illusion deserves to be much higher on that list, invite or not, if idra was the one who beat some of the players he did I guarantee you'd have put idra in the top 10. And uhh, morrow? Not to mention beastyqt? Horrible spots for each of them. Look at my post. If you want a less conservative ranking, you can't place Illusion very high. Select didnt do anything besides decent runs in the TSL. Please have less european/american bias. Thats not only for you. I don't see how this is european/american bias. Bias against select? Bias against Europeans? O_O
PS: definitely agree on Dimaga over Lucifron
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Huk's gotta drop a lot after this weekend. Fraer should also be a lot higher.
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On July 13 2012 01:53 mordk wrote: Lacking some players, and IMO some are there for free.
Idra shouldn't even show up. Ziktomini and Johnnyrecco are pretty good and could be included, as well as Killer, Babyknight, Vortix and Naama.
Major could probably be up higher while Nani should probably top Stephano by now (and I really dislike Nani, but his play is the best)
no. not at all
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To create the best possible list, I think it's important to look at the difference between online- and LAN-results + the difference between the results per league.
I mean the korean league is by far the toughest, but you can also notice quite a gap between Europe and NA. While reading this thread I came across Illusion's name a couple of times, but I think that if you throw Illusion in a top 50 European qualifier a couple of times, he probably won't get very far. People also really underestimate eastern europeans for example.
Furthermore, if players beat top 30 players online that's one thing. However, there is a huge difference between playing online and on a stage. That's why you see so many differences between players online and stage results.
I also agree on not letting foreigners, who were owning the scene just months ago, suddenly drop so quickly. Take Huk for example. You could let him drop to place 25, if he suddenly wins again...people will say he was in a small slump and should be top 5 again.
So once again, keep up the good work Kalwarkov <3
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Wonder if JRecco/VortiX will be in August's :p , also wondering how much MajOr will move up
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