Forenote: You may not agree with what I have to say, but it's the truth. If you don't like it, don't post here.
Alright, so I am one of the few hundred thousand, or few million, non-monolingual Americans residing in America at the moment.
I can speak, read, and write a few thousand words in Mandarin Chinese. However, my spoken Chinese skills are the most deficient.
I didn't get where I am now, with my credentials, by simply sitting around in Chinese bars all day and asking "How do I say ____ in Chinese?"
I sat down, with a book, for at least one hour each day, transcribing characters into simplified script, and more recently, traditional script. Now, I can read most any generic news articles from Taiwan or China as long as the material in them is not overtly specific (economics, psychology, etc.).
I have taken proficiency tests in Chinese as well. The HSK for instance. Think the TOEFL of Chinese for a moment, and I have passed it. Therefore, if I wanted to, I could study at a university in mainland China.
But if it's one thing that I find oh-so-irking, it would have to be the American that is disillusioned into thinking that they speak German / Korean / Japanese / Insert language here just because they spent a year or two wherever while they were in the military. I kind of have a reputation where I come from, people know I speak Chinese because people talk big about me here. At times I find it annoying, really. People think I'm god because I'm a Caucasian that speaks Chinese, but Chinese people that speak English get zero praise, wtf? Moving on, some guy talks to me about it at the university here, and then another guy says he speaks Japanese fluently I guess because of the flawed thought process many Americans possess which influences them to think that Japanese and Chinese are similar (They both come from two completely different language classes, thousands of years ago. Aside from the fact that Japanese uses its own unique character set along with a large portion of Chinese characters. Grammatically, it has much more in common with Korean, or even Turkish.)
And finally, to the dialogue that ensued. "I was in Osaka for three years. Almost got married. I speak Japanese fluently." "Can you read Katakana Hiragana or Kanji?" "BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA DESU!" "No, bro I don't speak Japanese, I was asking you if you could READ it, you know, Katakana, Hiragana?" "I got no clue what you're talkin' about." "Have you taken the JLPT or the DLPT?" "I got no clue what you're talkin' about. I took classes at the education center on base."
--The Next Day--
"I speak Japanese fluently." "How do you say 'nuclear reactor' in Japanese?" "I don't know." "..."
Owned?
How to properly demonstrate language fluency:
A degree in a foreign language doesn't mean shit to me, because I had a classmate in his senior year that couldn't read the Chinese character for "Beer" correctly, and it's such a painfully common word in Chinese.
Take proficiency tests. I cannot say this enough. When the U.S. Government is considering hiring their applicants, the applicants must take the DLPT (Defense Language Proficiency Test) for the language they want to translate for. Said applicants need demonstrable fluency in said foreign language, and usually it is all of these other little non-government proficiency tests which get government certified translators in the door with their first gigs.
/rant. this is just something that annoys the fuck out of me.
Actually I don't know what's a nuclear reactor is in Chinese either hahaha we just use the English term ><
Going to find out in case an angry white guy asks me
Then again I've NEVER came across a foreigner who can get the bloody tones right and they ALWAYS sound like shit, with the sole exception for a some dudes I saw on TV. Not even this "polyglot" on youtube.
In case that sounded like I'm flaming you for that last one. I was just ranting. hahaha. Please do focus hard on the tones. Same/Similar things for Japanese I'd assume.
Then again I've NEVER came across a foreigner who can get the bloody tones right and they ALWAYS sound like shit, with the sole for a some dudes I saw on TV. Not even this "polyglot" on youtube.
In case that sounded like I'm flaming you for that last one. I was just ranting. hahaha. Please do focus hard on the tones. Same/Similar things for Japanese I'd assume.
Sometimes I try to cast in chinese. For me it's pretty shitty:
Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
On August 04 2012 23:54 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
I went through that crazy dictionary phase for French and Spanish. It's much better now though it has not by any means ended yet. The only way is to keep going at it. Chinese uses a lot more figurative stuff and people have been writing like that since I was is primary school and I was always in awe of them. You can ask me anything a dictionary can't explain. Or you could try the WordReference forums.
On August 04 2012 23:54 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
I went through that crazy dictionary phase for French and Spanish. It's much better now though it has not by any means ended yet. The only way is to keep going at it. Chinese uses a lot more figurative stuff and people have been writing like that since I was is primary school and I was always in awe of them. You can ask me anything a dictionary can't explain. Or you could try the WordReference forums.
Oh I know xD. What I mean is that, when we started learning our first language for instance, we didn't start with ROTK. So I'm looking for a good progression of books, so I can practice increasing my reading speed without getting used to stopping so often for dictionary.
On August 04 2012 23:54 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
My inspiration came from the idea of meeting my girlfriend's parents one day.
I did, and then I realized they were terrible people. LOL.
Um, if you want certifications, I would recommend you buy "New Practical Chinese Reader" Volumes 1-6 (Volumes five and six have instructions only in Chinese, and I believe Volume 6 is only available in China, where I bought volumes 4, 5, and 6 because it would be a lot cheaper than getting it from Amazon). If you finish book three, then you basically know enough to pass HSK level 3, which is the lowest acceptable level to study in Chinese universities. The test was painfully easy when I took it almost two years ago. I felt like I was walking in to traps.
However, if you want something more practical, I would recommend you buy Integrated Chinese Volumes 1-3. And remember, you have to study for at least an hour a day, 4+ days a week. I've actually had interaction with native speakers for less than 10% of my entire studies. Sure, I study, and all of my friends are Chinese.
But of course, I still have pronunciation problems. I feel like I need classes for that.
For me, studying Chinese wasn't really about learning Chinese, it was more about filling a void in my life. I had nothing else to do with my spare time, and for the most part, I had no internet so I spent my spare time doing my second-most enjoyed pass-time: studying foreign languages. Now I have something to be proud of on my resume.
I didn't like American sports growing up, the last time I took part in any sport was elementary baseball, I grew up as a gamer. So, in some ways, you can say I connect more with Chinese people my age than I do with American people my age.
As for higher-level literature, I think you could find authors like 魯迅,巴金, and 龍應台 as well as their works online with google. These are basically Hemingway-esque authors for China, and the former of the two authors, I feel, are propaganda icons for the modern day PRC.
On August 04 2012 23:40 JieXian wrote: People would brag about their basketball skills or their BW skills or their guitar skills or their knowledge in something and turn out to be complete trash People are just being people.
Actually I don't know what's a nuclear reactor is in Chinese either hahaha we just use the English term >< Going to find out in case an angry white guy asks me
Then again I've NEVER came across a foreigner who can get the bloody tones right and they ALWAYS sound like shit, with the sole exception for a some dudes I saw on TV. Not even this "polyglot" on youtube.
In case that sounded like I'm flaming you for that last one. I was just ranting. hahaha. Please do focus hard on the tones. Same/Similar things for Japanese I'd assume.
You know, I agree with what you say. I am trying to learn both Korean and Chinese due to my study interests and while I am able to say a few words in Chinese due to my time there, I am by no means any good. Although the mainland Chinese people I know keep praising me for my pronounciation, I can not hear the subtle difference between different tones. I'd pronounce "four" as "death" and not realise it.
Problem here lies in the absense of the tonal language in the West. Then again, the problem I encountered with Mandarin was the local dialect. I stayed in Xiamen, which is a Hokkien-minority region aswell as having similar pronounciation as Taiwanese people. This means that anyone from outside the city finds it hard to understand the Mandarin I try to speak, as the way of expressing is different.
What bothers me more, is that Chinese people in general do not have the capacity to get the context of a sentence well, even if a word is mispronounced. If you say the wrong word in the West, 99% of the time people will still know what you say. But from my experience, if you fuck up the pronounciation of the word in China, they just don't see the whole part of the sentence.
On August 05 2012 00:21 Aelonius wrote: You know, I agree with what you say. I am trying to learn both Korean and Chinese due to my study interests and while I am able to say a few words in Chinese due to my time there, I am by no means any good. Although the mainland Chinese people I know keep praising me for my pronounciation, I can not hear the subtle difference between different tones. I'd pronounce "four" as "death" and not realise it.
Problem here lies in the absense of the tonal language in the West. Then again, the problem I encountered with Mandarin was the local dialect. I stayed in Xiamen, which is a Hokkien-minority region aswell as having similar pronounciation as Taiwanese people. This means that anyone from outside the city finds it hard to understand the Mandarin I try to speak, as the way of expressing is different.
What bothers me more, is that Chinese people in general do not have the capacity to get the context of a sentence well, even if a word is mispronounced. If you say the wrong word in the West, 99% of the time people will still know what you say. But from my experience, if you fuck up the pronounciation of the word in China, they just don't see the whole part of the sentence.
In the beginning, I interacted with people who mostly came from Fuzhou, so the accent I have is pretty similar. When I was in Taiwan, I tried speaking with a Taiwanese accent, but people still said I emphasized the mainland accent @_@.
"Four" and "Death" have the same exact pronunciation. Just think AK-死7, and you got the idea ^_^.
On August 05 2012 00:38 zalz wrote: You sound like a very pleasant person to be around.
Sarcasm?
Back to the topic, I was just outside smoking a cigarette and I heard a neighbor speaking on her cell phone while walking back to her apartment. Chinese.
So then I asked her, "What city do you come from?" in Chinese two or three times before she understood. Like I said, my spoken Chinese is the worst of my three categories.
On August 05 2012 00:38 zalz wrote: You sound like a very pleasant person to be around.
Sarcasm?
Back to the topic, I was just outside smoking a cigarette and I heard a neighbor speaking on her cell phone while walking back to her apartment. Chinese.
So then I asked her, "What city do you come from?" in Chinese two or three times before she understood. Like I said, my spoken Chinese is the worst of my three categories.
I beat myself up when it comes to this stuff.
So what's your point? Isn't it "enough" for most people to be able to communicate abroad with foreign people? I think that's the most important thing. If they are able to get along in everyday life, they can claim to speak a language. It's not a yes/no ability. This sounds more like an attempt to be noticed as good speaker by anyone you encouter rather than a rant about people. Besides, not everyone shares the same passion that you might or might not have, that doesn't make them dumb or less sophisticated. Some even don't have the opportunity to spend hours on this - just by the way.
On August 05 2012 00:38 zalz wrote: You sound like a very pleasant person to be around.
Sarcasm?
Back to the topic, I was just outside smoking a cigarette and I heard a neighbor speaking on her cell phone while walking back to her apartment. Chinese.
So then I asked her, "What city do you come from?" in Chinese two or three times before she understood. Like I said, my spoken Chinese is the worst of my three categories.
I beat myself up when it comes to this stuff.
So what's your point? Isn't it "enough" for most people to be able to communicate abroad with foreign people? I think that's the most important thing. If they are able to get along in everyday life, they can claim to speak a language. It's not a yes/no ability. This sounds more like an attempt to be noticed as good speaker by anyone you encouter rather than a rant about people. Besides, not everyone shares the same passion that you might or might not have, that doesn't make them dumb or less sophisticated. Some even don't have the opportunity to spend hours on this - just by the way.
He's saying that he's unsatisfied with his proficiency of Chinese.
An important ingredient for a good student. Or any achiever for that matter - think guitarists, athletes etc.
If you read his OP those people obviously can't get along daily life.
On August 05 2012 00:28 Enders116 wrote: "Four" and "Death" have the same exact pronunciation. Just think AK-死7, and you got the idea ^_^.
HELL NO
this was what I was talking about with the tone problem.
just in case you weren't joking - even if you were you were downplaying the importance of tones.... it's as important as any syllable in English.
EDit: I listened to 10 secs and stopped. I don't want to sound harsh but I have to ask, do you notice that you made the mistakes at the first "hello everyone" phrase itself?
And ask your Chinese friends to correct you and keep reminding them to do it. They might consider it rude so you need to assure them about what's important.
On August 04 2012 23:54 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
I went through that crazy dictionary phase for French and Spanish. It's much better now though it has not by any means ended yet. The only way is to keep going at it. Chinese uses a lot more figurative stuff and people have been writing like that since I was is primary school and I was always in awe of them. You can ask me anything a dictionary can't explain. Or you could try the WordReference forums.
Oh I know xD. What I mean is that, when we started learning our first language for instance, we didn't start with ROTK. So I'm looking for a good progression of books, so I can practice increasing my reading speed without getting used to stopping so often for dictionary.
Just in case, you're using an online dictionary right :D ?
IMO increasing reading speed should be the LEAST of your worries. Get your vocab and grammar up and most of all focus on the tones. Sorry for repeating that again and again but that's what I have to say to everyone.
No idea what's ROTK. I highly recommend Pimsleur Mandarin.
On August 04 2012 23:54 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm what books did you use for random reading while learning? I started learning last month, at about 700 characters and 450 multiple character words atm... but chinese news websites are still requiring such a ridiculous amount of dictionary as that level is still really basic.
My inspiration came from the idea of meeting my girlfriend's parents one day.
I did, and then I realized they were terrible people. LOL.
Um, if you want certifications, I would recommend you buy "New Practical Chinese Reader" Volumes 1-6 (Volumes five and six have instructions only in Chinese, and I believe Volume 6 is only available in China, where I bought volumes 4, 5, and 6 because it would be a lot cheaper than getting it from Amazon). If you finish book three, then you basically know enough to pass HSK level 3, which is the lowest acceptable level to study in Chinese universities. The test was painfully easy when I took it almost two years ago. I felt like I was walking in to traps.
However, if you want something more practical, I would recommend you buy Integrated Chinese Volumes 1-3. And remember, you have to study for at least an hour a day, 4+ days a week. I've actually had interaction with native speakers for less than 10% of my entire studies. Sure, I study, and all of my friends are Chinese.
But of course, I still have pronunciation problems. I feel like I need classes for that.
For me, studying Chinese wasn't really about learning Chinese, it was more about filling a void in my life. I had nothing else to do with my spare time, and for the most part, I had no internet so I spent my spare time doing my second-most enjoyed pass-time: studying foreign languages. Now I have something to be proud of on my resume.
I didn't like American sports growing up, the last time I took part in any sport was elementary baseball, I grew up as a gamer. So, in some ways, you can say I connect more with Chinese people my age than I do with American people my age.
As for higher-level literature, I think you could find authors like 魯迅,巴金, and 龍應台 as well as their works online with google. These are basically Hemingway-esque authors for China, and the former of the two authors, I feel, are propaganda icons for the modern day PRC.
Oh yea I'm ready for the time dedication. I've been averaging about 2 hours a day, slowly ramping it up, now at 3 hours/day for the last week (each day).
On August 05 2012 00:54 Gecko[Xp] wrote: So what's your point? Isn't it "enough" for most people to be able to communicate abroad with foreign people? I think that's the most important thing. If they are able to get along in everyday life, they can claim to speak a language. It's not a yes/no ability. This sounds more like an attempt to be noticed as good speaker by anyone you encouter rather than a rant about people. Besides, not everyone shares the same passion that you might or might not have, that doesn't make them dumb or less sophisticated. Some even don't have the opportunity to spend hours on this - just by the way.
My issue is people that toss the word "fluent" around and mince words when they say "I am fluent in ____." Like the place where I met that guy who said he could speak Japanese fluently. There are no Japanese people in my hometown. Like only a handful. For a white-trash suburb with a population of 50,000. The only university there was a 2 year college with a student body of like 2,000 bible-bangers, and almost no Asians in site.
According to my proficiency, I am "fluent" in Chinese, but if you look at the OP I posted, you'll see that no where did I use this word to describe myself. That's because I can't understand televised news reports, televised documentaries, or anything televised that has extremely high level vocabulary. And this makes perfect sense, because you have all the time in the world to read a newspaper and make sense of what it says while news reporters on TV talk quickly and flash to many different scenes on TV.
As JieXian said, my chinese is terrible. I've met people who I thought were native speakers of English on instant messaging clients and whenever we met face to face, they would insist that I speak Chinese to them because they don't want to speak English to me because they're afraid they'll make grammar errors. Likewise, I've had the same thing happen to me, people thought I was a native speaker of Chinese online, but then they see my white face and they're like, "OMG This white guy speaks Chinese."
And Jiexian, when I said AK-死7, it was a joke. I saw that was a person's screenname on CS 1.6 when I was at a wang ba in China.
JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
On August 05 2012 01:53 Aelonius wrote: JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
Aren't able to adapt? You seem to have a problem with your mindset unless I'm misunderstanding you.
it's varies between people. Just imagine listening to someone speaking bad english or dutch...
If you make a mistake, just repeat yourself again.............. and again until you get it. Of course in the end they need to be patient but it's not their job to "adapt" it's bloody yours.
On August 05 2012 01:27 Enders116 wrote: As JieXian said, my chinese is terrible. I've met people who I thought were native speakers of English on instant messaging clients and whenever we met face to face, they would insist that I speak Chinese to them because they don't want to speak English to me because they're afraid they'll make grammar errors. Likewise, I've had the same thing happen to me, people thought I was a native speaker of Chinese online, but then they see my white face and they're like, "OMG This white guy speaks Chinese."
And Jiexian, when I said AK-死7, it was a joke. I saw that was a person's screenname on CS 1.6 when I was at a wang ba in China.
Anywho, I gotta go for now.
it's far from terrible. Your vocab and grammar seemed good. Just keep working on the tones and asking for help and for corrections.
On August 05 2012 01:53 Aelonius wrote: JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
Aren't able to adapt? You seem to have a problem with your mindset unless I'm misunderstanding you.
it's varies between people. Just imagine listening to someone speaking bad english or dutch...
If you make a mistake, just repeat yourself again.............. and again until you get it. Of course in the end they need to be patient but it's not their job to "adapt" it's bloody yours.
Mmm it's a tough way to explain it easily, but I noticed often that the Chinese people I met, aren't that skillful with putting the context together even if one tone is wrong. In the English language, if you pronounce "sword" with a W, then you'll still be understood. Sure, it is hilarious but most people will understand what you mean. In >my< experience with the Chinese contacts is that they find it very hard to piece context together. Especially when you make one mistake, it often happened to me that they would blankly stare at me like "WTF is he saying?".
It might just be my experience, but this is the hardest about tonal language. One wrong tone and the people lose track of the sentence. It is pretty difficult haha.
On August 05 2012 01:53 Aelonius wrote: JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
Aren't able to adapt? You seem to have a problem with your mindset unless I'm misunderstanding you.
it's varies between people. Just imagine listening to someone speaking bad english or dutch...
If you make a mistake, just repeat yourself again.............. and again until you get it. Of course in the end they need to be patient but it's not their job to "adapt" it's bloody yours.
Mmm it's a tough way to explain it easily, but I noticed often that the Chinese people I met, aren't that skillful with putting the context together even if one tone is wrong. In the English language, if you pronounce "sword" with a W, then you'll still be understood. Sure, it is hilarious but most people will understand what you mean. In >my< experience with the Chinese contacts is that they find it very hard to piece context together. Especially when you make one mistake, it often happened to me that they would blankly stare at me like "WTF is he saying?".
It might just be my experience, but this is the hardest about tonal language. One wrong tone and the people lose track of the sentence. It is pretty difficult haha.
Exactly why I said that the tones are as important as syllables, not alphabets.
Think care vs car, wild boar vs wild bear but a lot worse, like A im guing ti scheel vs I am going to school.
Ok do know that even the Chinese need to clarify things among themselves when they misheard tones.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't just one single tonal mistake you made. I still understood people who spoke with almost every tone wrong (subject was simple of course) - and I seldom meet foreigners who speak Chinese to me. And Enders when he made those mistakes.
I have to say this because I'm concerned. You need to lower yourself down more. You seem a little cocky. Think about what's wrong with YOU and not what's wrong with them. You should be glad as long as they have the patience to listen to you while to try to get your message across
Try recording your own speech and listening to yourself and compare it to the original. If everyone finds it that hard like you said you must be really bad. Maybe take more time and think longer before every word.
On August 05 2012 01:53 Aelonius wrote: JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
Aren't able to adapt? You seem to have a problem with your mindset unless I'm misunderstanding you.
it's varies between people. Just imagine listening to someone speaking bad english or dutch...
If you make a mistake, just repeat yourself again.............. and again until you get it. Of course in the end they need to be patient but it's not their job to "adapt" it's bloody yours.
Mmm it's a tough way to explain it easily, but I noticed often that the Chinese people I met, aren't that skillful with putting the context together even if one tone is wrong. In the English language, if you pronounce "sword" with a W, then you'll still be understood. Sure, it is hilarious but most people will understand what you mean. In >my< experience with the Chinese contacts is that they find it very hard to piece context together. Especially when you make one mistake, it often happened to me that they would blankly stare at me like "WTF is he saying?".
It might just be my experience, but this is the hardest about tonal language. One wrong tone and the people lose track of the sentence. It is pretty difficult haha.
Exactly why I said that the tones are as important as syllables, not alphabets.
Think care vs car, wild boar vs wild bear but a lot worse, like A im guing ti scheel vs I am going to school.
Ok do know that even the Chinese need to clarify things among themselves when they misheard tones.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't just one single tonal mistake you made. I still understood people who spoke with almost every tone wrong (subject was simple of course) - and I seldom meet foreigners who speak Chinese to me. And Enders when he made those mistakes.
I have to say this because I'm concerned. You need to lower yourself down more. You seem a little cocky. Think about what's wrong with YOU and not what's wrong with them. You should be glad as long as they have the patience to listen to you while to try to get your message across
Try recording your own speech and listening to yourself and compare it to the original. If everyone finds it that hard like you said you must be really bad. Maybe take more time and think longer before every word.
Or have himself record a short vid of him speaking and see how much people can understand so we can be more objective here instead of relying on text to convey meaning :D
I'd definatly do something like that when I get to the point of feeling knowledgeable enough to speak more than basic Chinese. On the remark of arrogance, I don't wish to sound like it. I suck at the language. It might've been worded wrong ^^
Now the question is: Chinese, or Korean to learn first.
On August 05 2012 03:02 Aelonius wrote: I'd definatly do something like that when I get to the point of feeling knowledgeable enough to speak more than basic Chinese. On the remark of arrogance, I don't wish to sound like it. I suck at the language. It might've been worded wrong ^^
Now the question is: Chinese, or Korean to learn first.
Chinese because there's more area to go all explorer mode on foot o/
(2nd gen., Taiwanese-American.) I'm in this really weird/annoying spot where I can pretty much understand most relevant, every-day Mandarin, but my speech production is shit. (I don't think this is uncommon for 2nd gen. Asians.) Don't get me wrong, I can make myself understood, but my sentences would be weirdly phrased and circuitous -- it's like that thing that happens where you know the words but can't come up with them fast enough -- and my pronunciation is understandable but odd and slow at times, enough to flag me as American-born. Basically cannot read, but that can be fixed with me just sitting down to learn characters. I basically have had no "formal" instruction in Chinese (no Chinese school, no textbooks, etc.), just myself and the 'rents (and some other friends, but they're also 2nd gen. or ... 1.5 gen, I guess it's called also).
I'm kind of lucky to have parents I can practice with, but the funny thing is that they insist on speaking English to me to practice their English while I want to speak Chinese to practice my Chinese, and so the miscommunication is sometimes irritating.
On August 05 2012 03:33 babylon wrote: (2nd gen., Taiwanese-American.) I'm in this really weird/annoying spot where I can pretty much understand most relevant, every-day Mandarin, but my speech production is shit. (I don't think this is uncommon for 2nd gen. Asians.) Don't get me wrong, I can make myself understood, but my sentences would be weirdly phrased and circuitous -- it's like that thing that happens where you know the words but can't come up with them fast enough -- and my pronunciation is understandable but odd and slow at times, enough to flag me as American-born. Basically cannot read, but that can be fixed with me just sitting down to learn characters. I basically have had no "formal" instruction in Chinese (no Chinese school, no textbooks, etc.), just myself and the 'rents (and some other friends, but they're also 2nd gen. or ... 1.5 gen, I guess it's called also).
I'm kind of lucky to have parents I can practice with, but the funny thing is that they insist on speaking English to me to practice their English while I want to speak Chinese to practice my Chinese, and so the miscommunication is sometimes irritating.
There are also foreign students here (although I think this would most likely be with Mainland Chinese, censored and in some areas, still developing education here) who learn terminology in their studies that they can't immediately think of straight off hand in Chinese. I believe this would most likely be with Mathematics majors for example, and maybe some advanced levels and terms in psychology might be another example. It has also been my own experience that many Taiwanese are assigned readings in English that are made or published in America or other English-speaking countries
On August 05 2012 01:53 Aelonius wrote: JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
Aren't able to adapt? You seem to have a problem with your mindset unless I'm misunderstanding you.
it's varies between people. Just imagine listening to someone speaking bad english or dutch...
If you make a mistake, just repeat yourself again.............. and again until you get it. Of course in the end they need to be patient but it's not their job to "adapt" it's bloody yours.
Mmm it's a tough way to explain it easily, but I noticed often that the Chinese people I met, aren't that skillful with putting the context together even if one tone is wrong. In the English language, if you pronounce "sword" with a W, then you'll still be understood. Sure, it is hilarious but most people will understand what you mean. In >my< experience with the Chinese contacts is that they find it very hard to piece context together. Especially when you make one mistake, it often happened to me that they would blankly stare at me like "WTF is he saying?".
It might just be my experience, but this is the hardest about tonal language. One wrong tone and the people lose track of the sentence. It is pretty difficult haha.
I feel this is very much true, I've lived in China for a couple of yrs now and I have exactly the same feeling... Some ppl misunderstand a single word and they have no idea what you are saying... Sometimes they will even repeat that word (in the wrong tone obviously) and despite understanding the rest of the sentence they have no idea... And after like 2-3 minutes of repeating the same word and them finally getting it, they suddenly understand exactly what u mean...
I've always thought that is so super weird, I mean this would definitely never happen with any Western language (i think) ...
Anyway my Chinese still sucks as well, specially the tones... I do notice some ppl are really good at understanding me (they don't mind wrong tones that much) and some ppl really suck...
A good example is my gf's father can understand my Chinese quite well, while her mother usually has no idea wtf i'm saying... My gf can understand my chinese pretty much perfectly, while some of her friends also have a lot of trouble understanding me (they all speak English, so I guess that's not the reason) ....
Unfortunately i rarely ever talk Chinese to my gf, should do that more if I ever wanna be good at this language :{
Funny. I've suddenly got motivation to go hard on Chinese lately. I can speak Cantonese well but like you, I'm not fluent. I can't read and I can't speak Mandarin. Must go hard on the HSK Level 5.
On August 05 2012 01:53 Aelonius wrote: JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
Aren't able to adapt? You seem to have a problem with your mindset unless I'm misunderstanding you.
it's varies between people. Just imagine listening to someone speaking bad english or dutch...
If you make a mistake, just repeat yourself again.............. and again until you get it. Of course in the end they need to be patient but it's not their job to "adapt" it's bloody yours.
Mmm it's a tough way to explain it easily, but I noticed often that the Chinese people I met, aren't that skillful with putting the context together even if one tone is wrong. In the English language, if you pronounce "sword" with a W, then you'll still be understood. Sure, it is hilarious but most people will understand what you mean. In >my< experience with the Chinese contacts is that they find it very hard to piece context together. Especially when you make one mistake, it often happened to me that they would blankly stare at me like "WTF is he saying?".
It might just be my experience, but this is the hardest about tonal language. One wrong tone and the people lose track of the sentence. It is pretty difficult haha.
I feel this is very much true, I've lived in China for a couple of yrs now and I have exactly the same feeling... Some ppl misunderstand a single word and they have no idea what you are saying... Sometimes they will even repeat that word (in the wrong tone obviously) and despite understanding the rest of the sentence they have no idea... And after like 2-3 minutes of repeating the same word and them finally getting it, they suddenly understand exactly what u mean...
I've always thought that is so super weird, I mean this would definitely never happen with any Western language (i think) ...
Anyway my Chinese still sucks as well, specially the tones... I do notice some ppl are really good at understanding me (they don't mind wrong tones that much) and some ppl really suck...
A good example is my gf's father can understand my Chinese quite well, while her mother usually has no idea wtf i'm saying... My gf can understand my chinese pretty much perfectly, while some of her friends also have a lot of trouble understanding me (they all speak English, so I guess that's not the reason) ....
Unfortunately i rarely ever talk Chinese to my gf, should do that more if I ever wanna be good at this language :{
Ok I spoke to Aleo for a while and discovered that his pronunciation sucks big time. Enders's is soooo much better. If I were to pay less attention to him I won't know if he was speaking English or Mandarin because they sound the same from him. And that's bad.
You really need to record yourself saying something and compare it to how the Chinese say it and work on your language more because all that whining isn't going to help.
So your problems won't only be with your tone, but also your intonation (eg how french sounds and how english sounds and how a French American accent sounds), and definitely your phoenetics are probably off (ja = ya in German).
When people don't understand me I try to ask them to correct my mistakes and find out where I went wrong, pay a lot of attention to them and think slowly before making the sound, trying to get in the details. Trying hard to correct my mistakes.
This attitude is slowly getting really irritating me about how fucking arrogant white guys can be. (Aleonius explained his position to me so I'm not talking about him anymore but rather you.)
On August 05 2012 03:33 babylon wrote: (2nd gen., Taiwanese-American.) I'm in this really weird/annoying spot where I can pretty much understand most relevant, every-day Mandarin, but my speech production is shit. (I don't think this is uncommon for 2nd gen. Asians.) Don't get me wrong, I can make myself understood, but my sentences would be weirdly phrased and circuitous -- it's like that thing that happens where you know the words but can't come up with them fast enough -- and my pronunciation is understandable but odd and slow at times, enough to flag me as American-born. Basically cannot read, but that can be fixed with me just sitting down to learn characters. I basically have had no "formal" instruction in Chinese (no Chinese school, no textbooks, etc.), just myself and the 'rents (and some other friends, but they're also 2nd gen. or ... 1.5 gen, I guess it's called also).
I'm kind of lucky to have parents I can practice with, but the funny thing is that they insist on speaking English to me to practice their English while I want to speak Chinese to practice my Chinese, and so the miscommunication is sometimes irritating.
I'm 3rd/4th generation Chinese, my grandparents spoke bad Mandarin (spoke dialects) and my parents don't speak Mandarin but my sister and I managed to learn it.
Yes, we went to a Chinese school and everything but I have people to speak to also. I'm sure there isn't shortage of them in the US. Try to find some friends man.
On August 05 2012 05:47 Dandel Ion wrote: I just want to say that I learned 啤酒 pretty early on, third month or so. Can't remember exactly. Shit's important.
On August 05 2012 01:53 Aelonius wrote: JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
Aren't able to adapt? You seem to have a problem with your mindset unless I'm misunderstanding you.
it's varies between people. Just imagine listening to someone speaking bad english or dutch...
If you make a mistake, just repeat yourself again.............. and again until you get it. Of course in the end they need to be patient but it's not their job to "adapt" it's bloody yours.
Mmm it's a tough way to explain it easily, but I noticed often that the Chinese people I met, aren't that skillful with putting the context together even if one tone is wrong. In the English language, if you pronounce "sword" with a W, then you'll still be understood. Sure, it is hilarious but most people will understand what you mean. In >my< experience with the Chinese contacts is that they find it very hard to piece context together. Especially when you make one mistake, it often happened to me that they would blankly stare at me like "WTF is he saying?".
It might just be my experience, but this is the hardest about tonal language. One wrong tone and the people lose track of the sentence. It is pretty difficult haha.
I feel this is very much true, I've lived in China for a couple of yrs now and I have exactly the same feeling... Some ppl misunderstand a single word and they have no idea what you are saying... Sometimes they will even repeat that word (in the wrong tone obviously) and despite understanding the rest of the sentence they have no idea... And after like 2-3 minutes of repeating the same word and them finally getting it, they suddenly understand exactly what u mean...
I've always thought that is so super weird, I mean this would definitely never happen with any Western language (i think) ...
Anyway my Chinese still sucks as well, specially the tones... I do notice some ppl are really good at understanding me (they don't mind wrong tones that much) and some ppl really suck...
A good example is my gf's father can understand my Chinese quite well, while her mother usually has no idea wtf i'm saying... My gf can understand my chinese pretty much perfectly, while some of her friends also have a lot of trouble understanding me (they all speak English, so I guess that's not the reason) ....
Unfortunately i rarely ever talk Chinese to my gf, should do that more if I ever wanna be good at this language :{
Ok I spoke to Aleo for a while and discovered that his pronunciation sucks big time. Enders's is soooo much better. If I were to pay less attention to him I won't know if he was speaking English or Mandarin because they sound the same from him. And that's bad.
You really need to record yourself saying something and compare it to how the Chinese say it and work on your language more because all that whining isn't going to help.
So your problems won't only be with your tone, but also your intonation (eg how french sounds and how english sounds and how a French American accent sounds), and definitely your phoenetics are probably off (ja = ya in German).
When people don't understand me I try to ask them to correct my mistakes and find out where I went wrong, pay a lot of attention to them and think slowly before making the sound, trying to get in the details. Trying hard to correct my mistakes.
This attitude is slowly getting really irritating me about how fucking arrogant white guys can be. (Aleonius explained his position to me so I'm not talking about him anymore but rather you.)
Eh, you are quite the hostile motherfucker eh?
I am not arrogant at all, i'm just concluding Chinese ppl are bad at understanding complete sentences if they miss the meaning of one word. The fact that they do understand the sentence once they understand that one word kinda proves this. I don't care whether it's the tone or the way i pronounce stuff, i just conclude they are bad at it.
Then I just say something about how some ppl can recognize my broken Chinese very easily, while some ppl can't. Again, I'm not criticizing anyone, I'm just writing down my observations and I think it's strange that some ppl can easily recognize it, while others can't.
The only person I really criticize is myself, saying my Chinese sucks. Yes, of course my pronunciation sucks, I'm a foreigner and learning this language isn't exactly easy.
Not sure why you are trying to 'educate' us on this stuff. I've been studying Chinese for more than a year at a university in Shanghai and my teachers luckily all know this stuff as well. Quite fortunately they aren't as negative and hostile as you are as this really helps studying the language.
Anyway, good luck in life dude. I hope you can find a way not to be offended by stuff that isn't meant offensive (maybe take some comprehensive reading classes) and I hope one day you can be happy...
I really want to work on my Chinese in the context of casting a game of starcraft 2, so if someone could really help me with that, I would be most grateful. Every now and then I watch Qbaby lin or storm or Joeman or Sobadrush and their casts and I can understand roughly 60% of what they say, but when I cast, I usually don't speak it the same way they do.
On August 05 2012 01:53 Aelonius wrote: JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
Aren't able to adapt? You seem to have a problem with your mindset unless I'm misunderstanding you.
it's varies between people. Just imagine listening to someone speaking bad english or dutch...
If you make a mistake, just repeat yourself again.............. and again until you get it. Of course in the end they need to be patient but it's not their job to "adapt" it's bloody yours.
Mmm it's a tough way to explain it easily, but I noticed often that the Chinese people I met, aren't that skillful with putting the context together even if one tone is wrong. In the English language, if you pronounce "sword" with a W, then you'll still be understood. Sure, it is hilarious but most people will understand what you mean. In >my< experience with the Chinese contacts is that they find it very hard to piece context together. Especially when you make one mistake, it often happened to me that they would blankly stare at me like "WTF is he saying?".
It might just be my experience, but this is the hardest about tonal language. One wrong tone and the people lose track of the sentence. It is pretty difficult haha.
I feel this is very much true, I've lived in China for a couple of yrs now and I have exactly the same feeling... Some ppl misunderstand a single word and they have no idea what you are saying... Sometimes they will even repeat that word (in the wrong tone obviously) and despite understanding the rest of the sentence they have no idea... And after like 2-3 minutes of repeating the same word and them finally getting it, they suddenly understand exactly what u mean...
I've always thought that is so super weird, I mean this would definitely never happen with any Western language (i think) ...
Anyway my Chinese still sucks as well, specially the tones... I do notice some ppl are really good at understanding me (they don't mind wrong tones that much) and some ppl really suck...
A good example is my gf's father can understand my Chinese quite well, while her mother usually has no idea wtf i'm saying... My gf can understand my chinese pretty much perfectly, while some of her friends also have a lot of trouble understanding me (they all speak English, so I guess that's not the reason) ....
Unfortunately i rarely ever talk Chinese to my gf, should do that more if I ever wanna be good at this language :{
Ok I spoke to Aleo for a while and discovered that his pronunciation sucks big time. Enders's is soooo much better. If I were to pay less attention to him I won't know if he was speaking English or Mandarin because they sound the same from him. And that's bad.
You really need to record yourself saying something and compare it to how the Chinese say it and work on your language more because all that whining isn't going to help.
So your problems won't only be with your tone, but also your intonation (eg how french sounds and how english sounds and how a French American accent sounds), and definitely your phoenetics are probably off (ja = ya in German).
When people don't understand me I try to ask them to correct my mistakes and find out where I went wrong, pay a lot of attention to them and think slowly before making the sound, trying to get in the details. Trying hard to correct my mistakes.
This attitude is slowly getting really irritating me about how fucking arrogant white guys can be. (Aleonius explained his position to me so I'm not talking about him anymore but rather you.)
Eh, you are quite the hostile motherfucker eh?
I am not arrogant at all, i'm just concluding Chinese ppl are bad at understanding complete sentences if they miss the meaning of one word. The fact that they do understand the sentence once they understand that one word kinda proves this. I don't care whether it's the tone or the way i pronounce stuff, i just conclude they are bad at it.
Then I just say something about how some ppl can recognize my broken Chinese very easily, while some ppl can't. Again, I'm not criticizing anyone, I'm just writing down my observations and I think it's strange that some ppl can easily recognize it, while others can't.
The only person I really criticize is myself, saying my Chinese sucks. Yes, of course my pronunciation sucks, I'm a foreigner and learning this language isn't exactly easy.
Not sure why you are trying to 'educate' us on this stuff. I've been studying Chinese for more than a year at a university in Shanghai and my teachers luckily all know this stuff as well. Quite fortunately they aren't as negative and hostile as you are as this really helps studying the language.
Anyway, good luck in life dude. I hope you can find a way not to be offended by stuff that isn't meant offensive (maybe take some comprehensive reading classes) and I hope one day you can be happy...
lol I can't be absolutely sure about the verity of your statements and highly doubt it's that extreme as you put it, because that would mean that there's really something wrong with them. Your teachers obviously have a lot of experience with foreigners and they aren't a good sample size to pick from. Meaning you Mandarin probably isn't as good as you think it is.
But since I don't expect to get through to you due to what happened and this isn't some normal general topic I'll won't "educate" or flame you back and I wish you good luck (zero sacarsm here)
On August 05 2012 01:53 Aelonius wrote: JieXian, how do you deal with the language when you (accidently) mispronounce a tone? I hear most Chinese aren't able to adapt to the sentence and they instantly stop understanding what you're explaining. (Note: I was only 6 months in Xiamen so while I have had some experience there, it doesn't warrant for anything outside the comfortzone I had there /disclaimer)
Aren't able to adapt? You seem to have a problem with your mindset unless I'm misunderstanding you.
it's varies between people. Just imagine listening to someone speaking bad english or dutch...
If you make a mistake, just repeat yourself again.............. and again until you get it. Of course in the end they need to be patient but it's not their job to "adapt" it's bloody yours.
Mmm it's a tough way to explain it easily, but I noticed often that the Chinese people I met, aren't that skillful with putting the context together even if one tone is wrong. In the English language, if you pronounce "sword" with a W, then you'll still be understood. Sure, it is hilarious but most people will understand what you mean. In >my< experience with the Chinese contacts is that they find it very hard to piece context together. Especially when you make one mistake, it often happened to me that they would blankly stare at me like "WTF is he saying?".
It might just be my experience, but this is the hardest about tonal language. One wrong tone and the people lose track of the sentence. It is pretty difficult haha.
I feel this is very much true, I've lived in China for a couple of yrs now and I have exactly the same feeling... Some ppl misunderstand a single word and they have no idea what you are saying... Sometimes they will even repeat that word (in the wrong tone obviously) and despite understanding the rest of the sentence they have no idea... And after like 2-3 minutes of repeating the same word and them finally getting it, they suddenly understand exactly what u mean...
I've always thought that is so super weird, I mean this would definitely never happen with any Western language (i think) ...
Anyway my Chinese still sucks as well, specially the tones... I do notice some ppl are really good at understanding me (they don't mind wrong tones that much) and some ppl really suck...
A good example is my gf's father can understand my Chinese quite well, while her mother usually has no idea wtf i'm saying... My gf can understand my chinese pretty much perfectly, while some of her friends also have a lot of trouble understanding me (they all speak English, so I guess that's not the reason) ....
Unfortunately i rarely ever talk Chinese to my gf, should do that more if I ever wanna be good at this language :{
Ok I spoke to Aleo for a while and discovered that his pronunciation sucks big time. Enders's is soooo much better. If I were to pay less attention to him I won't know if he was speaking English or Mandarin because they sound the same from him. And that's bad.
You really need to record yourself saying something and compare it to how the Chinese say it and work on your language more because all that whining isn't going to help.
So your problems won't only be with your tone, but also your intonation (eg how french sounds and how english sounds and how a French American accent sounds), and definitely your phoenetics are probably off (ja = ya in German).
When people don't understand me I try to ask them to correct my mistakes and find out where I went wrong, pay a lot of attention to them and think slowly before making the sound, trying to get in the details. Trying hard to correct my mistakes.
This attitude is slowly getting really irritating me about how fucking arrogant white guys can be. (Aleonius explained his position to me so I'm not talking about him anymore but rather you.)
Eh, you are quite the hostile motherfucker eh?
I am not arrogant at all, i'm just concluding Chinese ppl are bad at understanding complete sentences if they miss the meaning of one word. The fact that they do understand the sentence once they understand that one word kinda proves this. I don't care whether it's the tone or the way i pronounce stuff, i just conclude they are bad at it.
Then I just say something about how some ppl can recognize my broken Chinese very easily, while some ppl can't. Again, I'm not criticizing anyone, I'm just writing down my observations and I think it's strange that some ppl can easily recognize it, while others can't.
The only person I really criticize is myself, saying my Chinese sucks. Yes, of course my pronunciation sucks, I'm a foreigner and learning this language isn't exactly easy.
Not sure why you are trying to 'educate' us on this stuff. I've been studying Chinese for more than a year at a university in Shanghai and my teachers luckily all know this stuff as well. Quite fortunately they aren't as negative and hostile as you are as this really helps studying the language.
Anyway, good luck in life dude. I hope you can find a way not to be offended by stuff that isn't meant offensive (maybe take some comprehensive reading classes) and I hope one day you can be happy...
lol I can't be absolutely sure about the verity of your statements and highly doubt it's that extreme as you put it, because that would mean that there's really something wrong with them. Your teachers obviously have a lot of experience with foreigners and they aren't a good sample size to pick from.
But since I won't get through to you because of a bad start I'll stop and wish you good luck (zero sacarsm here)
Well i've been in China for about 3.5 yrs now, met quite a few Chinese ppl and this is just how i feel about it. I don't see it as something negative either. Some ppl just understand me better than others. That doesn't mean it's better or worse, or that ppl that dont understand me are stupid, they probably just have another way of processing language in their brains
When I saw Aelonius' post I just recognized what he wrote and wanted to say i felt the same.
Sry bout the name calling, but i do feel you reacted too agressively. Now let's all be friends and make the world a better place >.<
Well I'm Chinese and although I converse in Mandarin everyday I would say my Mandarin is pretty bad. Further proof: I don't know what "nuclear reactor" is in mandarin. Had to google that. Then again, I think 95% of the Chinese population in my country wouldn't know either.
The question "how should I say (English phrase) in Mandarin?" always pops up in my mind, but to be fair, "how should i say (Chinese phrase) in English?" also always happens.
On August 06 2012 00:17 Resolve wrote: Well I'm Chinese and although I converse in Mandarin everyday I would say my Mandarin is pretty bad. Further proof: I don't know what "nuclear reactor" is in mandarin. Had to google that. Then again, I think 95% of the Chinese population in my country wouldn't know either.
The question "how should I say (English phrase) in Mandarin?" always pops up in my mind, but to be fair, "how should i say (Chinese phrase) in English?" also always happens.
I suck at languages. T_T
A lot of the times there is no direct translation. How would you say "swagger" in Chinese?
The guy I mentioned in the OP can't read Japanese, but he said he could speak it fluently. When you say the term "fluent" to a monolingual person, especially an American, they instantly think that your second language is just as good as your first language.
Also, typically people who work as translators usually do it as a side job unless they are simply highly literate, and highly skilled in both languages for a few simple reasons. Document translators usually specialize in translation for their best two languages and whatever they supplemented their language skills with. For example, a journalism major would be the first one to translate foreign media in to English, a Taiwanese Nurse that got his or her bachelor's in Taiwan and then his or her master's in the U.S.A. would probably be an on-call translator for people who can't speak English but are mortally wounded.
A lot of these people have day jobs and don't typically do translation for a living unless it is in a court of law or for government work.
I guess I'll add my two cents, for what it's worth.
I think you're looking at this in the wrong way. Language learning is not a competition. It's not a linguistic dick measuring contest. When someone says "I'm fluent in _______", it's like saying "I'm good at Starcraft". What does that even mean? It doesn't mean anything, just that according to their own arbitrary standard of "good" or "fluent", they think highly of their own ability. In the SC community, we know that a statement like "I'm good at Starcraft" doesn't mean anything, so we usually make a more specific statement like "I'm mid-Masters on EU" or "I got to D+ on ICCUP". But real life isn't like that. People talk about things just to be social and friendly and make conversation, not because they want every personal statement they make to be questioned or challenged as if they were in a courtroom. It's not a job interview. It's not a lie detector test.
If someone else wants to lie about or exaggerate their own level of fluency, then does that really make such a big difference to your life and your own language journey? I don't understand why you feel the need to rain on everyone's parade and "put them in their place". Why try and be the language police? If someone says they're fluent in Japanese, why not just give them props and be like "cool man, that's awesome" and then ask them about their experience in Japan or why they find the language interesting. Isn't that what a secure, socially competent person would do? In the long run, if you want to make friends and get along with people, being sociable and making people feel good about themselves is gonna be much more effective for you than putting people in their place just to satisfy your own feeling of self-aggrandisement. If someone wants to learn basic conversation in a few languages and add them to their Facebook profile, then so what? If that's how they choose to define themselves, then why try and impose your own standard of "fluency" on everyone else?
If you're only learning a language to impress people or earn "respect" then you're in it for the wrong reasons imo. Based on the tone of your post, your "forenote", your profile and blogs or posts that I've read from you before, you seem to care a lot about what other people think of your Chinese level. But really, does it matter? Is it really of such grave importance that every person you meet finds out what your true level is, so that they can appreciate your "credentials" and show you the "respect" you think you deserve? As I'm sure you're well aware, being a language learner means that some days you're in the zone and the words just roll off your tongue like a native speaker, and other days you can't even seem to get the simplest of sentences out coherently. So some people you meet will think you are much better than you really are, and others will think you are much worse. But once again, who the fuck cares?
I can understand where you're coming from because I used to be like that. When I first went to China I was very much concerned with what people thought of my level. I wanted to prove my ability to everyone, and most importantly avoid the stereotype of the "ignorant foreigner" who was only there to party and get girls. If people spoke to me in English, I would reply in Chinese, to establish right away that I was serious about the language and looking for opportunities to practice. Even in mixed groups where everyone could speak English, I would ask our coordinator a question in Chinese just so I could be like "hey guys, she says that we might have to wait another 20 minutes" and assert myself as the most fluent foreigner in the group. I would change the channel every time Da Shan came on TV because watching him made me feel awkward about my own ability. At KTV, I was the guy who would sing Chinese songs on purpose, even though it was probably boring and even alienating for the members of our group who didn't know the songs and couldn't understand a word of it. In short, I was a huge douchebag, and because of that I ended up alienating or pushing away a lot of the people who I could have become good friends with.
But after a while, I realised that all of that bullshit just doesn't matter. I didn't have to be smug around those who were worse than me, and I didn't have to be jealous of those who were better than me. If some guy wants to practice his English with me, then why not just give him the chance? If I'm in a mixed language group, why not just vibe with people and get to know them in whatever language is convenient for them, rather than trying to impose my own agenda on the conversation? If someone else is speaking Chinese and getting praise for it, then I no longer feel the need to show him or her up. If I go home at the end of the night and noone in the room even knows I speak Chinese, then so what? I know my own abilities and limitations, and at the end of the day that's all that matters.
Being at an advanced level (or any level really) doesn't entitle you to shit, just like playing in your regional football team or in a prestigious orchestra doesn't entitle you to shit either. Becoming more fluent means that you expanded the pool of potential people you can meet and communicate with. That's great. But it doesn't mean everyone suddenly needs to start respecting you, and it doesn't make you any better than anyone else. I'm a hardcore guy too. If I'm learning a language then I'm going all-in, but my choice is no more or less valid than "social learners" who are just learning for fun or want to hold basic conversations. Learning a language is supposed to be a humbling experience. The more you learn, the less you realise you know. Until you reach a highly advanced level, you have to accept that almost every sentence you create will be at best unnatural, and at worst contain several major grammatical or lexical errors. That's the whole point, that's the challenge. It's not about "earning achievements", or measuring your self-worth against other people learning the same language as you.
Lose the ego, lose the sense of self-entitlement. Give people props for their effort, rather than shooting them down or acting smug. Because at the end of the day, 99,9% of second language learners are shit, if you compare them to actual native speakers. You know, Malaysians speak three or more languages growing up. If they wanted, they could shit on Chinese people all day long for having crappy English and do the same to native English speakers for having crappy Chinese. But do they? No, most of the time they're just happy to converse with you and shoot the shit. And when it comes down to it, being cool, likeable and sociable will get you much further than trying to impress people and make them respect you.
On August 05 2012 12:34 JieXian wrote: I'm 3rd/4th generation Chinese, my grandparents spoke bad Mandarin (spoke dialects) and my parents don't speak Mandarin but my sister and I managed to learn it.
Yes, we went to a Chinese school and everything but I have people to speak to also. I'm sure there isn't shortage of them in the US. Try to find some friends man.
I do. But they all speak Cantonese or Shanghainese, no joke. Big Canto neighborhood where I live. Anyways, if you drop me in China or Taiwan, I can live perfectly fine; people will just think I'm super-American, and I wouldn't be able to read street signs. (So my main focus is actually to brush up on reading/writing.) ^^;
Also, in my defense, I'm in the middle of learning/brushing up on three other languages (soon-to-be four later this year) right now for my thesis. I mean, I could spend all my day language-learning if I wanted to, but gotta live some life, man. :O
@ Enders: Lol, the first thing I thought of in my very circuitous Chinese for "swagger" was "walking like a big man."
@ FuRong: There's a difference between language fluency and language proficiency. (To add a third to the mix, there is also language competency.) I'm pretty sure you are confusing them or Enders is or both. Or rather Enders is just referring to proficiency as it's established by a proficiency test, like some people refer to lang. competency as it's established by a competency test. I do think it's a bit harsh to criticize people for language ability; so long as they get what they want out of it, they should be able to say what they want. (Though, obviously, with the caveat that they might be exaggerating: "I know French," when all they really mean is, "Well, I have reading fluency in French.")
On August 06 2012 02:22 FuRong wrote: I guess I'll add my two cents, for what it's worth.
I think you're looking at this in the wrong way. Language learning is not a competition. It's not a linguistic dick measuring contest. When someone says "I'm fluent in _______", it's like saying "I'm good at Starcraft". What does that even mean? It doesn't mean anything, just that according to their own arbitrary standard of "good" or "fluent", they think highly of their own ability. In the SC community, we know that a statement like "I'm good at Starcraft" doesn't mean anything, so we usually make a more specific statement like "I'm mid-Masters on EU" or "I got to D+ on ICCUP". But real life isn't like that. People talk about things just to be social and friendly and make conversation, not because they want every personal statement they make to be questioned or challenged as if they were in a courtroom. It's not a job interview. It's not a lie detector test.
You've got a solid point here, except that "fluency" in a language is pretty clear in a business environment. I'd say that when you're fluent in a language, that you're capable of speaking said language without having to translate from one language to the other. Myself, I often think in English as opposed to thinking in my native language, Dutch. Fluency =/= flawless. Everyone makes mistakes, even natives. You'd be suprised to see howmany native English speakers make mistakes in their own language. Most commonly the "your" and "you're".
If you keep that in mind then I fully agree!
Please note I do agree with what you said after this point. My posts earlier were merely to outline an observation. JieXian is a decent person, but my feeling when we spoke about the language is that he's forgetting that foreigners do not have the same linguistic basis as Asian languages. For me for example, the correct intonation is extremely hard because it depends on such miniscule details. For me the four tones sound very similar, and I get almost scolded for not doing them correctly.