Over the last couple of days I've had the chance to speak to several Korean players a great deal about the situation in Korea and was surprised to hear a couple of things.
1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
2) The online tournament scene in Korea is essentially non-existent.
So why are these two facts relevant and is there a link?
Startale recently announced that it would shut down it's League of Legends team due to limited funds and focus entirely on it's SC2 division. Good news for SC2 fans of course and no doubt much cheering and jeering occurred, however it reveals a deep-seated problem. If a team as successful as Startale, who has within it's ranks so much success, cannot maintain it's League of Legends team due to lack of funds, then what on earth is going on over there in terms of sponsorship?
From what the Korean players I have spoken to tell me, things are rather grim right now. LG-IM is stable thanks in no small part to the huge LG sponsorship, by far the biggest in the Korean scene so far. Needless to say it helps that they have arguably the best stable in the world right now. Other teams are merely getting by. You've heard the stories about unsalaried players, well there are plenty of them. Even cutting corners like that, Korean teams are struggling to send anyone but an absolute safe bet over to tournaments like MLG and IPL, even more so to European events where the competition is tougher and the travel more expensive. If you don't nab one of those qualification spots with costs included, then you're going to have a bad time.
Why is the sponsorship situation so difficult? Well unlike SC1, teams are in an awkward spot when it comes to sponsorship ROI. ROI = Return on Investment, you want to at least break even on the value you get out based on the value you put in. If you have a product to sell, ROI could be as simple as selling X more units because of your sponsorship. More often than not though it's much trickier than that, it's hard to directly prove ROI. If I see LG's logo on Nestea's shirt and then go and buy an LG television, how does LG know the cause? Some companies gather data via referral links though that is clearly not relevant in most cases. Others allow you to tell them as you "check out" where you found out about them, but that only really applies if you're buying direct. If I buy an LG TV from Amazon, how on earth can I possibly let LG know that it's because of Nestea? Short answer is, I cannot. As a result, sponsorship ROI often has to be a lot higher than you might think, because you can't accurately track it.
None of that explains the Korean situation though. The problem is multi-faceted. Sponsors want ROI. They want to raise brand awareness and sell units in the demographic of SC2 viewers. However, S.Korea is not actually that big a country with an estimated population of 50 million. The UK is currently sitting closer to 70 million. To make matters worse, SC2 is not actually that popular in Korea right now. It isn't pulling in the numbers SC1 did. As a result, trying to raise brand awareness in the Korean market using SC2 team sponsorship is actually very difficult, the ROI is low. But fear not, for there is one country where advertising is king and ROI is huge! That's right, the United States of America. One of the reasons that Koreans want to come to MLG besides the large prize-pool and good shot at winning it, is the sponsorship exposure. When teams can afford it, they'll send players to MLG because it stands as one of the highest viewed SC2 events alongside IPL and Dreamhack. MLG is also very reliable when it comes to showing sponsorship logos in stage matches with high definition cameras, solid camera work and plenty of booth shots, not to mention the constant presence of player cams during matches. If you get on stage at MLG, your sponsors are happy.
However, constantly flying out to foreign events is not only expensive but can also negatively affect the players. Jetlag, sickness from airtravel, fatigue and of course a lack of practice time all take their toll. Smaller teams cannot afford to send many if any players to large foreign events unless they are able to qualify and get their ticket paid for by the event itself. What a nasty catch-22. Can't afford to send players to foreign events because of lack of sponsorship money, lack of sponsorship money because players aren't being seen at events.
Alright, now why did I mention online tournaments? I asked the Koreans how many there were and the answer? 1. 1 regular event. There have been a handful of attempts but aside from the Korean weekly, that's really about it. I asked if Korean players disliked online events and they said no, actually they enjoy them and want more. It's a chance to win some money, gain some exposure, but not have to travel to the other side of the planet to do it. It's low-risk high-reward for them and also the reason some try to compete in foreign online tournaments though as the skill level of SC2 continues to rise, cross-server player becomes less and less viable and cross-server results less and less important. Right now online tournaments also suffer from another problem, lack of sponsorship ROI. Sure, if you win a big online event, your team will get recognition, but it's not even close to being as effective as that logo on a shirt in 1080p on a big stage with cheering fans. Some teams, realizing this, have taken matters into their own hands with so-called "title sponsorship". This involves placing the sponsor in the user ID of the player. EG is a recent example of this with Raidcall, as are Fnatic. Mousesports also do it with Card Coaches. It's smart but not necessarily effective. Neither of these brands are well known for their acronym. You put LG in IM's name and you know what it is, you put RC or CC and explanation is required. This ambiguity can work in the favor of a sponsor since curious viewers will go and look for information on what these sponsors do, but it also tosses an element of unreliability into the mix.
Is it possible to create an online tournament that provides sponsorship ROI and could that help the situation in Korea?
Online tournaments are primarily watched by Americans, at least according to the analytics from my Twitch and Youtube channels. This is a good thing, sponsors like the American demographic and it opens up a lot of sponsorship options due to the sheer number of products available in such a large and wealthy country. Sponsoring an online tournament makes good business sense, chances are your ROI is gonna be great assuming the tournament is at least marginally successful in terms of views. But what of the players? I've mentioned this before in a previous blog post but no SC2 tournament has tried to do it. My opinion was vindicated by an unlikely party.
Valve understands the problem and implemented an in-game solution in the form of in-game branding. Super smart and considering Valve's history of ineptitude when it comes to eSports, quite the surprise. SC2 has no such system and there's no sign of it coming in either. Sad thing is Blizzard could pull it off, they already have a logo-decal system in the game. If you see MMA play on his European account he clearly has a Blizzcon logo and it looks good. Blizzard could implement a system which would allow authorized teams to display sponsorship logos on command structures for instance. However this probably will not happen so who is responsible for the promotion of sponsors?
Teams can only do so much. How on earth do you promote your sponsors during an online event without having a title sponsor? There is no stage, no cameras, no live audience, your jersey is irrelevant and you might as well be wearing it on your head. Quite frankly, I think this responsibility needs to start falling to tournament organizers. If you broadcast a tournament you have the ability to display sponsorship information in your overlay. The scoreboard would be an ideal place to do so, as would winner splash-screens. I particularly like the idea of displaying the sponsors if the player wins, it just makes sense in a competitive eSport. Win and make your sponsors happy!
Someone needs to step forward and do this so it might as well be me. All future SHOUTcraft tournaments and showmatches will feature the teams sponsors somewhere in the tournament overlay itself.
This all comes back around to the original topic, the sponsorship situation in Korea. It occurs to me that SCI has been focused in the wrong place. While foreigners frequently struggle to get results against Korean players, they are more often than not well-sponsored and at least get paid a nominal amount. Many Korean players don't get paid a thing and their teams struggle to find sponsorship. What Korean team has the number of sponsors that EG is sporting right now? Short answer, none of them do. As a result until the forseeable future I will be looking to focus SCI events and funding on Korea. I wish to create regular online events for Korean players to participate in and give their sponsors reliable exposure and ROI in Europe and America. I want to give Korean teams the opportunity not just to win money but actually build stability via the acquisition of new sponsors. I am hoping that SCI events in Korea will be a small step towards allowing that to happen. I will also look to find corporate sponsorship to fund additional Korean online events.
In the meantime, I would urge online tournaments to start supporting team sponsors rather than just their own. You might say "that's not our responsibility" but you have to understand that eSports is a fragile ecosystem and we depend on each other to ensure it remains alive. It is in your best interests to ensure that more money enters the scene, it benefits you as a tournament organizer, it benefits the viewers and the players. The problem is not going to fix itself, proactive effort is required by those with the power to do so.
Very admirable stance, and thanks for shedding some light on the situation in Korea. I am very intrigued to see how the overlays will look, but in Zooc I trust :D Will definitely tune in for the next SHOUTCraft!
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: 1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
Calling BS, team MVP is sponsored by Lotte which is "kind of a motherfucking big company", to say the least.
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: 1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
Calling BS, team MVP is sponsored by Lotte which is "kind of a motherfucking big company", to say the least.
I don't think they are quite as taken care of as IM is what TB is getting at. Yes Lotte brings enough to send DRG to every event and keep the team heartbeat alive, but it doesn't being in an insane amount of money so the team can innovate and thrive. Just because the company is big doesn't mean the team is getting a lot of money from them.
vVv was sponsored by steelseries and while I'm sure they got some nice headsets and keyboards from them the players were not receiving large salaries.
Sc2 still just isn't that popular in Korea compared to bw.
Just look at GSL live events/finals. They don't even nearly compare to bw finals which in their peak were exceeding over 10k live audiences. If I were a sponsor getting involved in something that just isn't popular in my country seems so risky. Not sure how or if it will change, bw fans are being force fed Sc2 now with the removal/switch of OSL and Proleague to SC2 but it remains to be seen if they will actually make the switch or just jump ship.
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: 1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
Calling BS, team MVP is sponsored by Lotte which is "kind of a motherfucking big company", to say the least.
Ok well every Korean I spoke to at this event said the same thing "only well sponsored team is LG-IM". I'd also suggest that Lotte is not a great sponsor to have when Korea isn't watching SC2 enough and Lotte operates in S.Korea and Japan. Lotte ROI in the US and Europe is as a result, zero.
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: 1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
Calling BS, team MVP is sponsored by Lotte which is "kind of a motherfucking big company", to say the least.
Just because a team is sponsored by a large company doesn't mean that the company is giving them all that much to work with.
I'm suprised that this is happening in Korea. Did not even know that their teams are lacking sponsors becouse I belived they have the best infrastructure for e-sports to grow . Thanks for showing us the problem.
I'd say this is a pretty solid analysis; everything he says is 100% true but there are a plethora of other reasons behind it as well.
One big thing TB didn't point out that makes it even worse for Korean teams is that while one can find bigger numbers abroad, many Korean companies have zero interest in international promotion. Combined with the fact that Korean teams are often ill-equipped in conducting business outside of Korea and you've got yourself a big problem. The fact big companies also tend to divide themselves in seperate regional entities (Intel USA, Intel Korea, etc.) complicates this even further.
Also, people should understand the size of the company doesn't always correlate to the size of the sponsorship. Being sponsored by Coca-Cola means nothing if the sponsorship is only in product, or for a couple of hundred a month. Don't just see a mainstream logo and think "well, they're sponsored by X, so they must be getting a lot of money." Obviously big companies have the potential to pay big (Monster, LG, all of the KeSPA sponsors) but that's all it is - potential. I've found that the community can sometimes be not very good at deciphering which sponsorships are big and which are small/product-only .
Yeah, how big is the company and how big is the sponsorship are actually very different. Arguably, IM seems to have quite a good deal compared to others.
I love this since it's not only going to guarantee a lot of watching - but also gives the korean scene some online hope, and especially the teams like you well wrote that down in the opening post - I look forward to this, TB! Good luck and great that you do this! ^-^
On August 29 2012 01:32 Lineridarz wrote: I like the idea, but you're no doubt going to see a drop in viewer numbers. Good luck.
Drop in viewer numbers ? Why so ?
Because some fans wanna see white-dudes win.
Personally I think the savior of esports is IdrA. If he was to win GSL I think it would cause a huge shake up in Korea and in west. Korea loves bad boy Greg. I'm hoping he decides to go back to Korea and be the sAviOr we all know he can be
I've always compared the American/Korean Scene to real life situation in the world of Football (soccer) where the English Premiership players are severely overpaid, the same goes to a minority in the America's MLS whereas the actual best in the world are playing in Spain on half the wages of the English players.
It's ironic how vital USA is to e-sports, yet how much we suck at it. If e-sports dies out in the USA there's not enough money/popularity to keep it going in Europe and Asia, because the americans are a large part of the audience cheering on Naniwa and Stephano and watching ads.
On August 29 2012 01:32 Lineridarz wrote: I like the idea, but you're no doubt going to see a drop in viewer numbers. Good luck.
Drop in viewer numbers ? Why so ?
Because some fans wanna see white-dudes win.
The fact of the matter is that there just isn't the interest in anything outside the "BIG PLAYERS"
It's really really really hard to sell an event that doesn't have the ultimate top tier players (popularity wise) to the general viewing audience.
Trust me, I've tried. The viewership interest just isn't there for the players. Perhaps with someone like TB behind the tournament he might have enough fans to pull it through, but as far as Korean players go, if you're not a GSL winner it's really hard to get people interested in you.
Maybe if there were some way to get interview content or something out during the tournament, it might be another step in the right direction, but from my experience it's really really tough to get people interested in "just another Korean player".
Not to say what it looks like the Brit plans on doing isn't a good thing, I'm just saying it's going to be really hard to generate the same interest you get with the big foreign names just simply because the face isn't there.
On August 29 2012 01:33 LuckyFool wrote: Sc2 still just isn't that popular in Korea compared to bw.
Just look at GSL live events/finals. They don't even nearly compare to bw finals which in their peak were exceeding over 10k live audiences. If I were a sponsor getting involved in something that just isn't popular in my country seems so risky. Not sure how or if it will change, bw fans are being force fed Sc2 now with the removal/switch of OSL and Proleague to SC2 but it remains to be seen if they will actually make the switch or just jump ship.
From the way many fans approached the final BW OSL, I think more people are going to jump ship than most people here would think or like. Many were treating this as THE FINAL STARLEAGUE and had banners and signs that thanked the OSL for the memories and the games.
In the meanwhile, the Azubu LoL Champions Finals between CLG.EU and Azubu Frost is taking place at the Peace Square at the War Memorial, the same place as the Jinair OSL Finals. The difference? Ongamenet actually auctioned off 4000 of the seats online, something which was never done for BW Finals in over a decade.
We certainly do need more ways of promoting sponsors through more visual means, and yeah valve is leading the way through DOTA 2, it even happened in Starcraft 1 where the maps for the Pringles (?) MSL had the pringles logo imposed on the bridges, even maps for proleague have the shinhan bank logo on them sometimes. I'm glad that your making an effort for more team sponsorship logos on your events TB, its down to us a community to support not only tournament title sponsors, but also team sponsors, and like alot of things in starcraft's long history, if we wait around for blizzard to do it, it will never get done.
this needs to be done classy and carefully - Go4SC2, for example, could never show an AMD banner; a lot of similar possible conflicts of interest exist - but indeed, sponsors need more screen time
On August 29 2012 01:46 Snoodles wrote: TB, with the recent kespa drama, do you think KeSPA would get in the way of top players competing in your hypothetical online tournaments?
Yes absolutely. Kespa probably won't let its players participate in his invitationals. In any case, if TB's aim is to help the poor then he should be focusing on ESF teams anyways.
good post with good ideas, sponsors getting their logos in-game is a great move from Valve
it also reminds me of TLs tournament pages, which have big icons with links to all the major sponsors at the top, not just the ones TL also supports themselves, just a good move
On August 29 2012 01:32 Lineridarz wrote: I like the idea, but you're no doubt going to see a drop in viewer numbers. Good luck.
Drop in viewer numbers ? Why so ?
Because some fans wanna see white-dudes win.
The fact of the matter is that there just isn't the interest in anything outside the "BIG PLAYERS"
It's really really really hard to sell an event that doesn't have the ultimate top tier players (popularity wise) to the general viewing audience.
Trust me, I've tried. The viewership interest just isn't there for the players. Perhaps with someone like TB behind the tournament he might have enough fans to pull it through, but as far as Korean players go, if you're not a GSL winner it's really hard to get people interested in you.
Maybe if there were some way to get interview content or something out during the tournament, it might be another step in the right direction, but from my experience it's really really tough to get people interested in "just another Korean player".
Not to say what it looks like the Brit plans on doing isn't a good thing, I'm just saying it's going to be really hard to generate the same interest you get with the big foreign names just simply because the face isn't there.
A regular korean stop, with good commentary and decent prize money is bound to draw a lot of viewers, granted that the scheduling is done right and there's some hyping there.
Also, as koreans play cross-server, foreigners will also try and get a piece in, so it won't be a completely "isolated" event.
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: 1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
Calling BS, team MVP is sponsored by Lotte which is "kind of a motherfucking big company", to say the least.
Ok well every Korean I spoke to at this event said the same thing "only well sponsored team is LG-IM". I'd also suggest that Lotte is not a great sponsor to have when Korea isn't watching SC2 enough and Lotte operates in S.Korea and Japan. Lotte ROI in the US and Europe is as a result, zero.
LG on the other hand sells worldwide.
But Lotte 2% is Delicious .3. but the only people purchasing it in USA are really the koreans who live here. Love being that one white guy in the korean food mart. Frolicking through the isles as k-pop plays in the back ground.
this needs to be done classy and carefully - Go4SC2, for example, could never show an AMD banner; a lot of similar possible conflicts of interest exist - but indeed, sponsors need more screen time
in-game decal logos would be fantastic
Tweet @blizzardcs and @starcraft and whoever you can think of with this idea.
This issue is the result of two parties failing to communicate and collaborate (Team Managers, and Tournament Organizers).
Team Managers and Tournament Organizers need to be openly communicating their needs.
Team Manager to Tournament Organizer, "Hey, my sponsors need exposure, here are the .png's I'd like you to put on your overlay when my players an being featured, and here is the .png I'd like you to play if he wins. In return, I will provide you quality players who show up on time and provide quality games for you to cast!" or Tournament Organizer to Team Manager, "Hello, I have an online tournament coming up and I'd like to enlist a few of your A-Team players to participate. The event runs from Date/time to Date/time, and here is a link for the format and rules. If you could provide a roster of available players and their appropriate sponsorship images, I think we can put together a great event!"
On August 29 2012 01:32 Lineridarz wrote: I like the idea, but you're no doubt going to see a drop in viewer numbers. Good luck.
Drop in viewer numbers ? Why so ?
Because some fans wanna see white-dudes win.
Personally I think the savior of esports is IdrA. If he was to win GSL I think it would cause a huge shake up in Korea and in west. Korea loves bad boy Greg. I'm hoping he decides to go back to Korea and be the sAviOr we all know he can be
fighting~
Good point. If a one handed African American woman wins an MLG, that would be great for the African American SC2-scene as well.
I have always enjoyed your content, both through your Youtube channel and SHOUTcraft tournaments and other casting. But recently, with you sponsoring CranK and bringing him to MLG, and then letting him and SlayerSRyung stay with you. I know that Genna was responsible for some of this as well, but i think that you two are doing amazing things for this community. i wish you the best of luck and I will continue to support you in whatever way i can!
This kind of explains why I keep seeing SlayerS players being flung at the NASL qualifiers. Playing cross-server sucks, but if you can sneak a few more players into international tournaments you get a little more exposure to investors and/or ROI for current investors (are they sponsored by Intel, or was it just BoxeR?)
Presuming that it isn't going to be Korean teams only, this is great for not only the Korean scene but the foreigner scene aswell. A thing most foreign players say when asked if they would go to Korea is that they're isn't enough tournaments for them to justify a long stay as they're losing out on potential prize money. Gogo TB
Admirable initiative by TB and I wish him success. It's also hard for the SC 2 teams to get sponsors because all the sponsorship money is tied up with the broodwar teams. I do hope this is successful, but as TB and others pointed out, people want to see white dudes win.
FXO's tourney is mainly korean and they usually have a decent list of korean names too. However, their numbers are low compared to foreign tourneys and this current one, while having some issues which can explain some of the drop, has had a lot lower numbers than previous ones.
I follow the KR scene a lot, but even I don't have time to watch every GSL match and major foreign tourneys, so I rarely tune into the ESV weekly because of that. With OSL starting too, it makes it even harder to fit everything in now. Just so much SC to watch these days.
On August 29 2012 01:54 lnstantly wrote: I have always enjoyed your content, both through your Youtube channel and SHOUTcraft tournaments and other casting. But recently, with you sponsoring CranK and bringing him to MLG, and then letting him and SlayerSRyung stay with you. I know that Genna was responsible for some of this as well, but i think that you two are doing amazing things for this community. i wish you the best of luck and I will continue to support you in whatever way i can!
Genna is responsible for practically all of it, she deserves the credit
is this another "EG lair" thread of you talking about something you dont know anything about or have not been near the location of what you are talking about and making it out to be fact based on rumors and speculation?
On August 29 2012 02:05 Damrak wrote: Where is Samsung? All i heard is samsung khan. Such a big electronic company with so little esport (sc2) investment
On August 29 2012 02:05 Damrak wrote: Where is Samsung? All i heard is samsung khan. Such a big electronic company with so little esport (sc2) investment
Samsung Khan is a Kespa team. Its most famous member is Stork.
On August 29 2012 02:06 ZeroSix wrote: is this another "EG lair" thread of you talking about something you dont know anything about or have not been near the location of what you are talking about and making it out to be fact based on rumors and speculation?
i will give it a read later and find out
Nah I'm pretty sure that's just your posts. But hey, let's continue to furiously circlejerk over the frathouse remark as if we somehow know any better
I for one will make a point of watching SHOUTcraft from here on out, I'm sure if you can pull this off we'll get to see some more of the up and coming korean scene -- which I know I would love. Thanks for all your hard work TB, really enjoyed watching Crank this past weekend and following your reactions on Twitter.
On August 29 2012 02:06 ZeroSix wrote: is this another "EG lair" thread of you talking about something you dont know anything about or have not been near the location of what you are talking about and making it out to be fact based on rumors and speculation?
i will give it a read later and find out
Nah I'm pretty sure that's just your posts. But hey, let's continue to furiously circlejerk over the frathouse remark as if we somehow know any better
Don't be so defensive, your frathouse remark was hilarious and we appreciate your being so blunt.
As always, great initiative and while we're at it, brilliant casting at MLG.
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: 1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
Calling BS, team MVP is sponsored by Lotte which is "kind of a motherfucking big company", to say the least.
Ok well every Korean I spoke to at this event said the same thing "only well sponsored team is LG-IM". I'd also suggest that Lotte is not a great sponsor to have when Korea isn't watching SC2 enough and Lotte operates in S.Korea and Japan. Lotte ROI in the US and Europe is as a result, zero.
LG on the other hand sells worldwide.
But Lotte 2% is Delicious .3. but the only people purchasing it in USA are really the koreans who live here. Love being that one white guy in the korean food mart. Frolicking through the isles as k-pop plays in the back ground.
There's a fallacy that returns again and again in discussing esports sponsorship: that size of company = size of sponsorship. This is NEVER the case. Size of sponsorship = size of company X willingness of company to invest in esports. Just go to Broodwar. If you go by size of the company, Samsung is by far the biggest most wealthiest of the Broodwar sponsors. But Samsung KHAN the team has always been a middle-of-the-road team moneywise. Not poor, but not overly rich either, and they've repeatedly had problems with their star players threathening to leave because they felt they weren't getting paid enough. KT Telecom, which by comparison to Samsung is a much smaller company, has always been known as the richest team. This is because KT has been willing to invest whatever money it took so their team could get the best players money could buy. It's good to hear LG is heavily investing in IM. Hopefully that means at least one eSF team will be able to survive once the KeSPA teams start buying them out.
Love the awareness and the ideia, but for it to make impact it must have aditional content durin g the SCI, like intervews and stuff.... The spectators must connect with the personalities of the players or the number going to drop, i think.
Also would love to see less "spotlight" korean players like AcE, Sniper, ASD, Moon.... Instead of the usually MVP, MMA, Nestea, MC....
TB, sometimes your casting rubs me the wrong way, but blogs such as this are proof in the pudding that you are a credit and boon to the Sc2 scene. Keep on doin yo thang.
In the end Biscuit you're talking about the current which isn't relevant now that the BW pros are switching over. ROI will be received when the Korean fans and old BW fanboys are forced to switch over. Sure, they say they don't like the game, but when their old BW pros are making a run for an OSL, GSL, or whatever they will be watching. You might lose some people to the switch, but I would guess that the old fans won't die out just because the game is switched up they're invested in their players/teams. When all that is said and done, then it is up to the ESF teams to get that money. If they don't then KESPA has their next power play.
How much does it cost to sponsor a eSports team? Not so much travel budget (which I assume to be 3k per person per event, assuming the events are planned out far enough in advance that tickets needn't be bought the week before), but I mean daily/weekly/monthly maintenance costs?
I've always wondered that because I figured, if/when I've got the cash, sponsoring a eSports team is about as close as I'm going to get to owning a sports team (except for that one share of the Green Bay Packers that I bought and that one share of Manchester United that I own....)
On August 29 2012 02:30 NoobSkills wrote: In the end Biscuit you're talking about the current which isn't relevant now that the BW pros are switching over. ROI will be received when the Korean fans and old BW fanboys are forced to switch over. Sure, they say they don't like the game, but when their old BW pros are making a run for an OSL, GSL, or whatever they will be watching. You might lose some people to the switch, but I would guess that the old fans won't die out just because the game is switched up they're invested in their players/teams. When all that is said and done, then it is up to the ESF teams to get that money. If they don't then KESPA has their next power play.
Forgive me if I don't rely on or trust KESPA to do things right.
well one problem i can see about what youre doing is that a lot of the teams are sponsored by korean companies, and exposure to america doesnt do much for them, so its essentially doing absolutely nothing. am i mistaken about this?
Korea exports around 50 billion dollars worth of goods to the United States every year (just narrowly less than the United Kingdom does). We're an important market to them, yeah.
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: 1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
Calling BS, team MVP is sponsored by Lotte which is "kind of a motherfucking big company", to say the least.
You can be sponsored by Apple, but if they only give you $5 a week, it doesn't help much. We don't know what kind of deal MVP has with Lotte.
I think the merchantising by esports teams needs an overhaul. Would love to see one website where you could buy any team jersey or mug like regular sports etailers. And also teams actually designing shirts as fashionable items and not just a billboard for 10 sponsors. Fair product fair price the customers are there waiting to give you their money. Nice profit margin on clothing.
If you see MMA play on his European account he clearly has a Blizzcon logo and it looks good. Blizzard could implement a system which would allow authorized teams to display sponsorship logos on command structures for instance.
I was just thinking about this the other day, due to the prevalence of ads in War3 tourney maps, like such. Obviously this will be so much more problematic for individual team sponsors, and it is somewhat ugly, but the uglier it is, the more effective it is ... so I say.
Red Bull does all right with their name-brand on ST's shirts nowadays in terms of visibility, lol.
On August 29 2012 01:32 Lineridarz wrote: I like the idea, but you're no doubt going to see a drop in viewer numbers. Good luck.
Drop in viewer numbers ? Why so ?
Because some fans wanna see white-dudes win.
The fact of the matter is that there just isn't the interest in anything outside the "BIG PLAYERS"
It's really really really hard to sell an event that doesn't have the ultimate top tier players (popularity wise) to the general viewing audience.
Trust me, I've tried. The viewership interest just isn't there for the players. Perhaps with someone like TB behind the tournament he might have enough fans to pull it through, but as far as Korean players go, if you're not a GSL winner it's really hard to get people interested in you.
Maybe if there were some way to get interview content or something out during the tournament, it might be another step in the right direction, but from my experience it's really really tough to get people interested in "just another Korean player".
Not to say what it looks like the Brit plans on doing isn't a good thing, I'm just saying it's going to be really hard to generate the same interest you get with the big foreign names just simply because the face isn't there.
A regular korean stop, with good commentary and decent prize money is bound to draw a lot of viewers, granted that the scheduling is done right and there's some hyping there.
Also, as koreans play cross-server, foreigners will also try and get a piece in, so it won't be a completely "isolated" event.
No.
You would think it might, but it actually won't UNLESS its all the top top popularity players. The interest for Koreans just isn't there.
I would rather not have "TB charity tournaments" that have no purpose other than keeping korean teams alive. That wont be successful in the long run because the reason koreans dont have sponsors is not that they dont travel or that they have less online tournaments.
On August 29 2012 02:59 Misacampo wrote: I thought SlayerS was the most well-sponsored team in korea, or did that go away once boxer left....?
I believe they were initially given a very nice sponsorship of around $500,000 for the first year, but I don't think the sponsor renewed that deal past the first year. I'm not an Esports insider, I just remember something like that.
Having money pulled out from under you can actually be a lot tougher than barely having money from the start since you've taken on certain financial obligations that you can no longer afford.
edit: back on topic. I was hoping that Red Bull would have been a big sponsor for Startale. Are they really going a relatively cheap route? Perhaps Startale just overextended too much? They had a good sized roster and still decided to absorb ZeNex.
This makes me want Korean Weekly Season 4 to start even more now. I always wondered how the hell they got all the top Koreans to compete in it for a (comparatively) small prize pool. I guess if the players aren't really making much money otherwise, it's fairly appealing.
I get ideally you wouldn't have sponsors that cross too badly? I think the effort is very admirable, what are your plans to help with team sponsor issues?
MLG is pretty good at this because they focus on a lot of lifestyle brands that are hard for teams to get (dr. pepper, stride gum, etc), but it's certainly possible that you can have conflicts (intel and amd are big sponsors, so are razer and steelseries, etc.). I think it might be worth helping to "out" sponsors who demand unreasonable exclusivity.
The Dr. Pepper situation at MLG is almost comical. I get on the margins water is a competitor, but that doesn't make it a strong enough substitute to not allow in the venue.
It's very true, foreign teams do get sponsors, with much worse players. I wouldn't be surprised with the power Kespa has, if many big Korean sponsors have some shady agreement to not sponsor the GSL teams.
I also think non Korean e-sports sponsors should step in and sponsor Korean teams instead of crappy foreign players, this seems like a great opportunity for them you'd say.
It made me really happy to see Parting wearing his Red Bull shirt after his OSL game. We really need more sponsorship visibility like that. Glad to see TB take the initiative here and hope other tournament organizers take note.
This is great! I feel like you are a grandpa for e-sports. Don't worry it's not your age it that make it that, but your wisdom. Love your channel, absolutely adore and love your casting work, love what you do for us and for the indie gaming companies. Please keep your chin up and work on your only flaw, ignoring haters.
i say we worry about our own scene first to be honest, just like the koreans are mainly worried for their own scene. Its not like we are all peaches and cream over here. And even by my standards korea is still better off .
As far as successful teams go or ones that atleast seem to be successful., internationally all we really have is
-EG/Complexity/Quantic/FXO/Empire/Fnantic/Acer/Mouz/Millenium/ Gama Bears. Obviously i am forgetting some, but i hope you get my point. Mind you this is the entire world we are talking about for starcraft 2. If you want to talk purely american teams then all we have is EG and Complexity realistically. Is team Light american? and if they are, i doubt they are in the ballpark of having spare change.
Now about korea, If you only think about the teams that are currently set up for starcraft 2 alone, one could say their is trouble. But, since Kespa has now officially into starcraft 2. I am more inclined to think that its time for some fat to be trimmed. The entire america has just 2 really successful teams.
Now look at korea (lets remember, broodwar is no more, these are officially starcraft 2 teams right now)
LGIM/ TEAM MVP (sponsored by hot6 as well)/ Startale / Samsung Apps/KT Rolster/CJ Entus/Woongjin Stars/Air force/ 8th team.
Look at that list of teams that are doing well right now, compared to the americas or even europe. As sad as i am for some korean teams that are part of the esport federation, Some simply need to be trimmed. Korea has 9 successful well funded teams, America? 2 , Europe? 5-6. And we actually want to say korea is worst off?
Nhsoe /Slayers/TSL/Zenex /Prime , all of these teams i dont see sticking around for to much longer, unless one of these teams get really lucky and have many break out players. Its only a matter of time till they disban and the players get absorbed into a well funded kespa team. The guys currently on kespa teams that cant handle the sc2 transition will be weeded out to make way for these players. And about FXO, that team will only stay alive as long as FXO Boss has the passion to keep it alive since i dont see any other sponsors except for razor.
Its only natural,survival of the fittest. And its not just korean teams , its everything in starcraft 2. I see atleast 1 big USA tournament going under soon or in the near future,Their is way to much over-saturation. The ones that can be successful in this space will stay.
And yes i agree with the sponsorship logos in maps.
As usual, great writeup, TB. It's flabbergasting how foreign teams get so much sponsorship with much worse players (and much less results). I'm of the idea that non-korean sponsors should step-up and sponsor korean teams. Their money would be well-invested... Results speak for themselves. I'm not saying foreign teams should be left alone, but that results should dictate the pace of sponsorships, as in every sport scene.
I kind of suspect that the future of Starcraft2 may be in Europe and not in Korea. High variety of teams, players and countries, short travels to events etc.
For how long subsidies from the US can keep the Korean SC2 alive is really some interesting topic that we probably will see answered in maximum 5 years how it evolved.
And still, marketing in SC2/esports is still so underwhelmingly well done in the scene. So many things to improve on from players, casters, organizers, teams, admins and how they work together. Casters getting the better of it at this point- but only the top10 of them. And admins probly have the worst job.
PS: speak of weekly cups.. am I the only one who thinks that the number of European weeklies has gone down lately?
In game ads would be amazing, and Custom Portraits would be great for teams and sponsors as well. I didn't know that online tournaments were so scarce in Korea. Great post.
On August 29 2012 03:05 Niazger wrote: I would rather not have "TB charity tournaments" that have no purpose other than keeping korean teams alive. That wont be successful in the long run because the reason koreans dont have sponsors is not that they dont travel or that they have less online tournaments.
Some said my previous SCIs were "charity tournaments" because I was inviting foreigners that had not necessarily shown results.
On August 29 2012 03:31 TumNarDok wrote: PS: speak of weekly cups.. am I the only one who thinks that the number of European weeklies has gone down lately?
there is more big tournaments, so weekly cups scene is getting smaller, but still, european weeklies arent doing bad :p _ great blog TB!
The size of the sponsorship and the size of the company do not mean anything to each other, a great example of this is the BW teams in fact
Samsung Khan is sponsored by its namesake, and we all know Samsung is a giant company in the world, multibillion dollars, however STX soul is better funded then Samsung Khan because Samsung is just cheap in their sponsorship. Its the size that matters a lot.
Very interesting, great to see you're going to support the online tournament scene in korea, too. Somewhat unsure as to how the sponsors on overlays/score screen/etc. will look, but I'm certainly not against the concept, more I'm anticipating how it's going to be pulled off without making the logos too big or too small.
On August 29 2012 01:32 Lineridarz wrote: I like the idea, but you're no doubt going to see a drop in viewer numbers. Good luck.
Drop in viewer numbers ? Why so ?
Because some fans wanna see white-dudes win.
make use of the white dudes in korea? TL has some of them there. Other than that, good write up I guess, I guessed this was the case, also not forgetting the sponsors already sponsoring kespa teams, not too many to go around for teams in Korea.
Part of the problem is the major brands: MLG, NASL, IPL, GOM have killed online tournaments.
How the hell do tournament organizers get their sponsors ROI in a world where at least one of those 4 is broadcasting something almost all day? Couple that with the fact that at most times of the day, some of the most well known and popular players are streaming and taking a huge chunk of the viewer share.
In this day and age of SC2 esports, it's impossible to get ROI as an online tournament without some celebrity status (usually casters, occasionally players like IdrA, Stephano, etc.).
Very good read, and your point about sponsors needing more exposure, especially at online events, is spot on. I'm glad you're taking steps to do exactly that for SCI, as well as the fact that you're turning your attention to the Korean scene. However, as others have pointed out already, it's going to be tough drawing large numbers of viewers without having popular Korean players in the tournament, of which there are few. And they're not really the ones needing more exposure, both personal and sponsorship wise. I hope you can find some way to make it all work. Best of luck to you!
Oh, and will this more korean focused SCIs be live events? Because that will be very hard to organise and run, without alienating a time zone. I suppose you could do rebroadcasts for EU viewers, like some events are doing these days, but that's never as good as the real thing.
Very interesting read. You often read posts from people viewing 1 thing or another that they consider a problem in their environment but rarely see them being the 1st to act upon it. As such i wish you the best of luck with this endevour and hope that it will eventually create a path for a greater intermingling of korean talent and western money, a mix that cannot help but grow ESports.
On August 29 2012 01:31 xChromaticx wrote: Not bad,TB. Doing so much stuff for eSports,makes me feel like im not helping the scene grow at all lol. Nice anyways!
You can always edit Liquipedia!
I agree for the most part, but there is a reason why so few companies who target the Western audiance sponsor Korean teams. It's harder to market them outside of the pure skill. Look what EG does for iu sponsors (Kingston f.e.), that is hard to do with gamers who don't speek English. But still, everything helps. So good effort and I hope you can make difference with this!
Slight offtopic, anyone remember times when esport was not really sponsored(barring ocassional, Intel/Amd) and still had this huge crowd of people watching all because of power of novelty and excitement. Yes im talking about early quake, pre-OSL BW, Counter strike etc Jerseys consisted only of team logos :D
So Esport took a next step but nowadays for SC2 its not exatcly a place to make another step, actually they need to make a slight step back, stabilize and then try to push the boundries, well maybe, because it seems so far that LoL will be the one pushing the boundries and SC2 will only take defensive position. Unless Kespa does its magic, somehow.
I feel that US/Europe already reached their heights.
Damn TB, you are such a hero. Would be awesome to see more online Korean tournaments, the Korean Weekly is extremely interesting and has some great games (I just don't like the color mod).
This makes a lot of sense. I'm a small time caster but I'm going to start putting in the extra effort to get add sponsor logos to my casts. I hope that the big casters decide to do the same.
This isn't just a matter of online tournaments. I think individual casters can step it up here as well since teams can point out that a large audience still just watches regular casts from youtube casters(Team Liquid can point out Husky's cast of TLO's game here got 100k views. Imagine if it had Razer, The Little App Factory, and Monster logos somewhere. That's some pretty awesome ROI right there considering he releases those kind of casts on a near daily basis. + Show Spoiler +
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p-r80YeJwQ
Of course this is more work for the casters(myself included). But I think it would potentially grow the e-sports scene immeasurably.
I like the idea of pimping the sponsors somewhere in the event hopefully more tournaments do that. I think there is also something that you forgot about there is another reason for doing sponsorships and that is brand awareness. You might not go tomorrow and buy an LG television but you associate the brand with the best SC2 team in the world and you would probably remember that before you remember if they have great TVs or not.
As for Korean teams it seems like there is an untapped well of sponsors they aren't looking into and that is getting sponsorships from companies outside of Korea. SC2 is entirely global and GSL is one of the best platforms for a sponsor to get their name out there in the SC2 scene because its the one probably the most people would watch. So why aren't they all going to worldwide companies and seeing if they want to sponsor them. The answer to that is they don't have a representative looking for sponsorships like that. The only exception to that is ST getting RedBull as their sponsor.
TB has a lot of good points. Something that I think should also be mentioned, if it hasn't already is that increasing the amount of money going directly to the Korean scene, the less of a need there is for them to come here. Meaning the money that is being invested here by MLG and IPL has a better chance of staying here. In the most recent MLG only 2 foreigners made the top 15, and only one of those players was from NA. So I think it would be beneficial to both scenes if there is more of a investment made for the pro or even amateur players.
When I read your posts I hear your voice narrating the words o_0
I've wondered for a while why the Korean Weekly is pretty much the only tournament of its kind. I really enjoy watching it, and the calibur of games that appear are top notch.
I think that one of the main reasons that TSL3 had such a great deal of mystique and hype was that Koreans were invited while foreigners had to fight it out through qualifiers for a spot. I would really, really like to see another online tournament where invited Korean players went up against nonKoreans that got in via some sort of qualification process.
Maybe even just give each Korean team a spot and have them send a player of their choice or something.
And about ROI for sponsors of Korean teams -- when I see a member of a team like EG or Complexity get interviewed they make a point of announcing their sponsors, and I really just do not see that much from Korean players in comparison.
On August 29 2012 02:05 Damrak wrote: Where is Samsung? All i heard is samsung khan. Such a big electronic company with so little esport (sc2) investment
Samsung Khan is a Kespa team. Its most famous member is Stork.
Also, esport =/= SC2.
For the purposes of TL, esports is sc2
Nice job tb. But sponsors of tourneys dont want other sponsors to be shown. Amd tournament showing intel? It doesnt make sense. Maybe we should go through the blizzard end.
Its noble what you're doing, but i dont think it actually helps too much. I've never watched one of your tournamnets. I dont lrefer online cups. I know koreans better than foreigners, but the korean weekly is not fun for me to watch. So, i'm left doubtful teams will get to say "hey your brand is seen in tbs tourney(though it does show sponsors more)"
I thought you were going to say since gom has such a foreign audience lets get foreign sponsors when i was reading for a while
It was one of australian tournaments where i saw them playing on maps which had sponsor logos displayed on map textures (usually around vespine gas geysers). It would probably need too much work to make every map with every combination of team sponsors, but i think it's an initiation of a good idea. At a current time, the idea is only relevant for displaying tournament's own sponsors.
It would probably require Blizzard to implement this, but basically in game options, player would select a sponsor image from his computer (in a similar way like the decals are chosen), and this image would be displayed somewhere on the textures of the map (similarly like the decals are displayed on buildings and units)
On August 29 2012 05:09 imMUTAble787 wrote: When I read your posts I hear your voice narrating the words o_0
I've wondered for a while why the Korean Weekly is pretty much the only tournament of its kind. I really enjoy watching it, and the calibur of games that appear are top notch.
I think that one of the main reasons that TSL3 had such a great deal of mystique and hype was that Koreans were invited while foreigners had to fight it out through qualifiers for a spot. I would really, really like to see another online tournament where invited Korean players went up against nonKoreans that got in via some sort of qualification process.
Maybe even just give each Korean team a spot and have them send a player of their choice or something.
And about ROI for sponsors of Korean teams -- when I see a member of a team like EG or Complexity get interviewed they make a point of announcing their sponsors, and I really just do not see that much from Korean players in comparison.
You should start reading the post-match interviews. The non-KeSPA teams always give a shout-out to their sponsors
Although I did know that the scene in Korea was lacking in sponsors, money, and tournaments I always expected it to somehow bounce back. I would like to personally thank you for helping the Korean scene and helping the e-sports team in general grow. One of my goals as well would be to eventually compete professionally, gain sponsors, and possibly aid you in the growth of e-sports as a whole.
I wish you immense amounts of succes and I hope that Korea can reach a point that many American and European teams have.
Once again, thank you for your never-ending passion of e-sports and the e-sports scene.
On August 29 2012 01:33 LuckyFool wrote: Sc2 still just isn't that popular in Korea compared to bw.
Just look at GSL live events/finals. They don't even nearly compare to bw finals which in their peak were exceeding over 100k live audiences. If I were a sponsor getting involved in something that just isn't popular in my country seems so risky. Not sure how or if it will change, bw fans are being force fed Sc2 now with the removal/switch of OSL and Proleague to SC2 but it remains to be seen if they will actually make the switch or just jump ship.
On August 29 2012 02:30 NoobSkills wrote: In the end Biscuit you're talking about the current which isn't relevant now that the BW pros are switching over. ROI will be received when the Korean fans and old BW fanboys are forced to switch over. Sure, they say they don't like the game, but when their old BW pros are making a run for an OSL, GSL, or whatever they will be watching. You might lose some people to the switch, but I would guess that the old fans won't die out just because the game is switched up they're invested in their players/teams. When all that is said and done, then it is up to the ESF teams to get that money. If they don't then KESPA has their next power play.
Forgive me if I don't rely on or trust KESPA to do things right.
I'll admit I am a bit surprised by the current korean situation. I mean, Starcraft is known for being something similar as the national sport in korea, so technically, it should even be the first place to put sponsor in it. I really don't know what could have happened, but if I can help than I will.
Seems like a smart venture as ESports TV is the only one taking advantage of such high level play on a regular basis. Still I wonder how many dollars there are in the eco system and whether foreign teams need to die for some of the better sc2 players to thrive.
I work for a decently sized American business who works specifically with international consumers. I've been trying to convince this business to jump into some sort of sponsorship to test out the waters.
I went to art school, I don't know anything about business, what should I be looking for in creating a sponsorship proposal? Are there any resources out there to bring up say hits on a website? Views on a video? Unique visits? Is there any way to make the potential RoI look appealing to a business?
Is there anything in particular we fans can do aside from supporting the companies who support these teams? You said there's no way for us to say why we're supporting the business, but is continuing to purchase their goods really worthwhile for these teams?
What would be actually useful to help, I guess is my main question.
Good luck on this, TB, and I look forward to what comes of it!
On August 29 2012 04:49 architecture wrote: What is the ROI of a Korean company like KT getting exposure in the USA.
Very little. But exposure in the US opens up possibilities for additional sponsorships. There are tons of multinational corporations such as LG or Samsung that operate in both Korea and the US. KT Rolster is likely able to get additional sponsors as long as they aren't other south Korean telecom companies.
Having a lot of work in Korea I think the Korean problem is a problem with most team manager being bad at business. Let me give two some examples of the mind numbing stuff I have seen out of Korean coaches:
1: I knew what dire straights ZeNEX was in at the end of it's life and came up with some cool promotional ideas (mind you I re-wrote the "ZeNEX wants THE THING" post for them, so I had done good work for them in the past.) I offered a small partnership with ESV TV where we would cast replays of cool games from ZeNEX players and promote THE SHIT out of the players/team to get some exposure at a needed time. It would not really have benefited ESV TV is any way, but I did not want to see the team die.
However I was turned down flat because the coach felt that they should be paid well for it, and even then he didn't want the players to reveal strats. I explained this could be simply ladder replays of super standard play. Didn't matter, a team on the verge of death turned me down flat for free promotion at it's direst hour.
By comparison, if I go to Liquid the most well known foreign team that I can likely offer little exposure to (since a lot of my traffic comes from here), they JUMP ALL OVER IT. "You want TaeJa reps right? How about TLO, Haypro, Ret, or anyone else? Want replays from the entire team? Whatever you want man!"
2: About 13 months ago right around the start of the KW I realized you could not buy Korean team gear anywhere (pre Primezangg) outside of Korea, and shipping from Korea is insanely high. I came up with a really cool business plan for a gear shop to stock Korean teams gear. It was unique in that because we could keep it small, and with my basing in the US, we could offer the stuff for a VERY reasonable cost, and put A LOT of money into the Korean teams pockets who needed it (and still do apparently). I don't remember the number specifics but it was a REALLY good deal, something like 60% of all profits, and they could still do their own stuff in Asia so as not to effect that.
Every Korean team turned me down. Several told me they just were not interested (don't want free money?), but several told me that they had already signed deals (why would you talk to me then?) and would have their lines out within a week. They all wanted $5K+ a month plus the insane good deal I was offering citing they already were getting that (which destroyed any way to make a profit or break even). I knew this was obviously bullshit and went on my way. Here we stand 13+ months later, and ONE team sells their gear (Prime), and you still cannot buy an NsHS or MvP jersey.....
These are but a couple things. In my time in Korea I have found that team managers/coaches are very good managers/coaches, but AWFUL businessman, they have a self inflated sense of value, and refuse to do things to help themselves out because they don't understand how it will help.
Also running online tournaments in Korea is one of the most frustrating things I have EVER done. I send out on average about 30+ emails PER WEEK reminding seven teams to sign up. I spend a 12 hour period on battle.net beforehand bugging players to sign up because most coaches just ignore the emails. This is all to get like 30 players, which is not really much. When GSTL hits, it becomes borderline impossible to run the tournaments as teams are OBSESSED with it and refuse to let most players play if they have a match in the next 3-4 weeks. For example Crank was always asking to play in the Korean Weekly when on SlayerS, but since he was their PvZ sniper they did not allow him to enter at all (or maybe one time, can't remember offhand) in S3 because they were afraid of people scouting him. Fair sentiment but this is a guy that made 0 salary, and needed promotion bad. Did this matter? Lol no, notice the lack Crank in all S3. Can't make stream money either, since anyone in the SlayerS house cannot stream. So 0 income for Crank.
Now add in the third problem of GOM TV. GOM TV is composed of some amazing people (<3 Mr Chae) but one of the most frustrating companies to work with, everything takes months on end to set up with them (I spent 3'ish months getting approval on the Korean Weekly), and they do not ever work with online tournaments. For example the Korean Weekly was set up for Saturday nights in Korea, and GOM was aware of this. It was set up this way because there was never GSL on those nights. GOM however after a season or two moves GSTL to Saturday night with no prior warning to tournament organizers. This put me in a spot where for S3 I was already committed on dates/times and lost MANY participants because of this move. I understand GOM is big, but to not shoot off an email or Skype message when I was seeking approval for S3 saying "Hey might want to move the dates to Sunday" would have saved me much trouble.
Anyways the small player turnout and difficulty of running these tournaments has made securing sponsors very very very hard and we were forced to put S4 on an indefinite hold (hopefully just until HotS retail), so the one "regular" event isn't even a regular event anymore. Add in the fact there's a -42,800% chance of KeSPA players in an online tournament (people want the new shiny Koreans), and all of a sudden you have an environment that it does not make sense to run tournaments.
So in short, the Korean teams are the Korean teams own worst enemy. They make silly decisions on a regular basis, lack basic communication, and do things that only hurt their exposure in the long term. The fact that every team does not have an NA/EU member to do marketing to NA/EU companies and help them do all the things is beyond me and shows they do not understand the need to connect in the right way with foreign companies and fans.
Edit: Also important is when do you actually broadcast to get an ROI anymore? MLG, IPL, NASL, or another major league is ALWAYS on. ESV was always the exception of a company that can compete without millions of $, but now even these days we cannot, because we NEED such a larger viewership than them to be sustainable where they don't need top notch viewership every day to stay afloat.
why cant gom and kespa pick up on the good ROI practices at mlg? This was even talked about at the Princeton eSports symposium, Alex Garfield said that when he approached a sponsor he had to tell them when, where, and how much exposure his sponsorship would get. After all these are basic business practices, you see it in traditional sports all time, in soccer matches you see the banners down the side of the pitch and sponsors on their jerseys.
That being said, Korean teams would really benefit from even someone in the west doing promotions for them on a part time basis. I am sure there are die hard fans of teams that also happen to be business students who would even do it for free or as an internship etc.
I think this is a wonderful step into the future of eSports and I like that you will not only displays sponsors of the tournmaent itself but the sponsers of the teams as well.
However, let's say future tournaments and teams are sponsorded by companys who are in competition with another. Would you still show both? (ie. FedEx - UPS, Coke - Pepsi)
Also a side note, I can't even get pictures of the players for our production from the teams, instead having to rip them from old GOM VOD's, you really think they will spend the time to send a list of sponsors and logos? Not a chance.
On August 29 2012 03:24 johnny123 wrote: And about FXO, that team will only stay alive as long as FXO Boss has the passion to keep it alive since i dont see any other sponsors except for razor.
esports has shown to be a worthwhile investment for our team, regardless of boss's passion it will be around for a long time barring any drastic things coming up in the future.
This is the best, most informative blog I've ever read regarding eSports. Thank you so much TotalBiscuit.
Is there anything fans can do to help? Other than maybe facebook like a brand a post a pic of yourself with say a Razer keyboard for sponsoring your favorite player?
On August 29 2012 03:24 johnny123 wrote: And about FXO, that team will only stay alive as long as FXO Boss has the passion to keep it alive since i dont see any other sponsors except for razor.
esports has shown to be a worthwhile investment for our team, regardless of boss's passion it will be around for a long time barring any drastic things coming up in the future.
I missed this the first time around and just wanted to let you know I found it really interesting.
On August 29 2012 06:02 Diamond wrote: Having a lot of work in Korea I think the Korean problem is a problem with most team manager being bad at business. Let me give two some examples of the mind numbing stuff I have seen out of Korean coaches:
1: I knew what dire straights ZeNEX was in at the end of it's life and came up with some cool promotional ideas (mind you I re-wrote the "ZeNEX wants THE THING" post for them, so I had done good work for them in the past.) I offered a small partnership with ESV TV where we would cast replays of cool games from ZeNEX players and promote THE SHIT out of the players/team to get some exposure at a needed time. It would not really have benefited ESV TV is any way, but I did not want to see the team die.
However I was turned down flat because the coach felt that they should be paid well for it, and even then he didn't want the players to reveal strats. I explained this could be simply ladder replays of super standard play. Didn't matter, a team on the verge of death turned me down flat for free promotion at it's direst hour.
By comparison, if I go to Liquid the most well known foreign team that I can likely offer little exposure to (since a lot of my traffic comes from here), they JUMP ALL OVER IT. "You want TaeJa reps right? How about TLO, Haypro, Ret, or anyone else? Want replays from the entire team? Whatever you want man!"
2: About 13 months ago right around the start of the KW I realized you could not buy Korean team gear anywhere (pre Primezangg) outside of Korea, and shipping from Korea is insanely high. I came up with a really cool business plan for a gear shop to stock Korean teams gear. It was unique in that because we could keep it small, and with my basing in the US, we could offer the stuff for a VERY reasonable cost, and put A LOT of money into the Korean teams pockets who needed it (and still do apparently). I don't remember the number specifics but it was a REALLY good deal, something like 60% of all profits, and they could still do their own stuff in Asia so as not to effect that.
Every Korean team turned me down. Several told me they just were not interested (don't want free money?), but several told me that they had already signed deals (why would you talk to me then?) and would have their lines out within a week. They all wanted $5K+ a month plus the insane good deal I was offering citing they already were getting that (which destroyed any way to make a profit or break even). I knew this was obviously bullshit and went on my way. Here we stand 13+ months later, and ONE team sells their gear (Prime), and you still cannot buy an NsHS or MvP jersey.....
These are but a couple things. In my time in Korea I have found that team managers/coaches are very good managers/coaches, but AWFUL businessman, they have a self inflated sense of value, and refuse to do things to help themselves out because they don't understand how it will help.
Also running online tournaments in Korea is one of the most frustrating things I have EVER done. I send out on average about 30+ emails PER WEEK reminding seven teams to sign up. I spend a 12 hour period on battle.net beforehand bugging players to sign up because most coaches just ignore the emails. This is all to get like 30 players, which is not really much. When GSTL hits, it becomes borderline impossible to run the tournaments as teams are OBSESSED with it and refuse to let most players play if they have a match in the next 3-4 weeks. For example Crank was always asking to play in the Korean Weekly when on SlayerS, but since he was their PvZ sniper they did not allow him to enter at all (or maybe one time, can't remember offhand) in S3 because they were afraid of people scouting him. Fair sentiment but this is a guy that made 0 salary, and needed promotion bad. Did this matter? Lol no, notice the lack Crank in all S3. Can't make stream money either, since anyone in the SlayerS house cannot stream. So 0 income for Crank.
Now add in the third problem of GOM TV. GOM TV is composed of some amazing people (<3 Mr Chae) but one of the most frustrating companies to work with, everything takes months on end to set up with them (I spent 3'ish months getting approval on the Korean Weekly), and they do not ever work with online tournaments. For example the Korean Weekly was set up for Saturday nights in Korea, and GOM was aware of this. It was set up this way because there was never GSL on those nights. GOM however after a season or two moves GSTL to Saturday night with no prior warning to tournament organizers. This put me in a spot where for S3 I was already committed on dates/times and lost MANY participants because of this move. I understand GOM is big, but to not shoot off an email or Skype message when I was seeking approval for S3 saying "Hey might want to move the dates to Sunday" would have saved me much trouble.
Anyways the small player turnout and difficulty of running these tournaments has made securing sponsors very very very hard and we were forced to put S4 on an indefinite hold (hopefully just until HotS retail), so the one "regular" event isn't even a regular event anymore. Add in the fact there's a -42,800% chance of KeSPA players in an online tournament (people want the new shiny Koreans), and all of a sudden you have an environment that it does not make sense to run tournaments.
So in short, the Korean teams are the Korean teams own worst enemy. They make silly decisions on a regular basis, lack basic communication, and do things that only hurt their exposure in the long term. The fact that every team does not have an NA/EU member to do marketing to NA/EU companies and help them do all the things is beyond me and shows they do not understand the need to connect in the right way with foreign companies and fans.
Edit: Also important is when do you actually broadcast to get an ROI anymore? MLG, IPL, NASL, or another major league is ALWAYS on. ESV was always the exception of a company that can compete without millions of $, but now even these days we cannot, because we NEED such a larger viewership than them to be sustainable where they don't need top notch viewership every day to stay afloat.
Tons of good info here. I hope the SC2 teams make better business decisions in the future.
Also props to TB for keeping the e-sports dream alive.
Forgive me if I don't rely on or trust KESPA to do things right.
I think it's already been proven that KESPA don't have the ability to throw their weight anywhere near as much as they did before. We'll see how the situation evolves however, somehow I don't think we'll be able to have our cake and eat it, i.e. have KESPA's legions of Korean fans but avoid ridiculous power plays by them. More viewers = more power.
On August 29 2012 01:46 Snoodles wrote: TB, with the recent kespa drama, do you think KeSPA would get in the way of top players competing in your hypothetical online tournaments?
I dount TB's tourney will be aimed at Kespa players. Literally worlds apart.
Respect TB, good luck and please based your streaming time around GMT. Cheers
Some Teams are clearly better organized than others. Take the NASL open tournament. Slayers has signed up half their team every time while most others haven't signed up anyone with only a handful of exceptions. MVP signed up for the wildcard tournament, and now TSL have signed up for the final NASL season 4 qualifier. Perhaps NASL could allow some space on the players screen for Team Sponsors. I do know that NASL had a little trouble last season getting Official Player Portraits, I am curious if we will get shots of Arthur & Dark!
It's frustrating that some teams just refuse to help themselves.
For a tournament that's essentially charity to help out players, featuring their sponsors is a great idea. For regular tournaments, I don't see any reason it has to work that way. Teams are limited in what they can attend, because of time and money and strategy-revealing and so forth. Tournaments compete to get those players, because (as Diamond explained very well) if they don't get the top players they can't get sponsors or ticket-buyers or whatever they need to stay alive. Tournaments compete for players in a number of ways - prize money, travel expenses covered, exposure for the team's sponsors, etc.
MLG isn't just showing team sponsors out of the good of their heart - they're doing it because they know that doing so is part of why they can get those players to come to MLG. Of course, they could limit the amount they show team sponsors and instead give more attention to their own. In order to keep the same player draw, they'd have to use that extra sponsorship money to increase the prize pool and/or cover more of the tournament expenses for players and/or increase their total viewership enough to keep the total exposure the same. It's not obvious to me that it's somehow better for the sponsorship money to come in primarily through teams rather than tournaments or vice versa.
That said, I don't think this is something that many tournament organizers realize. Maybe the Korean Weekly would have gotten better players if they featured the sponsors more. Maybe pointing out to online tournaments that this is a tool they could be using will help a lot.
SC2 games are not a good medium for sponsorship and advertising. This means that the entire sponsorship model of esports is under threat, because the medium is fundamentally flawed from a advertiser standpoint.
Simply put, team sponsors don't see a ROI (return on investment).
Its a business model problem IMO... esports is still clinging to a 2002 type business model and its now 2012. The old esports business model doesn't work. There are too many highly trackable, measurable advertising mediums for companies to chose from now like Google/Facebook/Twitter, that simple generic sponsorship get thrown out by marketing departments because their ROI is weaker and less easily measured.
For the current model to succeed, SC2 teams would need to show how sponsoring them brought new business to their advertisers. I don't think they can show that.... and in 2012, there are lots of ad sellers that can.
I completely applaud what you're doing. You've basically identified THE main problem for players -- how to promote sponsors while in tournaments? Sure, in personal streams exposure to sponsors is easy, but in tournaments it isn't unless a person actually researches your team website, THEN views who's sponsoring it.
Here's my suggestion for how the tournament should run:
Part 1 You want to give Koreans exposure, however I don't think that this opportunity has to JUST extend to koreans living in korea. Instead of putting any kind of racial or location lock on who can join the tournament, think along the lines of a series of "Korean Daily's." Whether you choose to have them every day, or 3 times a week/once a week, your choice. These are open tournaments, allowing however many people want to join, but on the KOREAN server. The dailies should have ~$100 prize pool to gather attention of korean pros, with you casting using your format.
Don't just force players to only be streamed on your stream -- your stream, the "main stream," picks and chooses which matches it wants to cast while community streams can cast other matches or replays (more viewership for the event, bigger buildup for the finals)
Part 2 This is the kicker, the big eye catcher for players/potential viewers. The top 2, 4, or 8 players from each daily (depending on how many dailies you have per week/month) after X amount of daily's are invited to a "special event" of some kind. This event has a sizable prize pool. Additionally, in order to ASSURE viewership is high, invite ~4 extremely popular players to the event (whether these guys are just popular in the community or just damn good). Go through the tournament, cast live until the Ro8, then cast ALL ro8 replays through finals off of replays or whatever, ectect.
^ Is how I would like to see a tournament run, one what I would play in as well as watch if I wasn't participating. Thoughts?
On August 29 2012 03:24 johnny123 wrote: And about FXO, that team will only stay alive as long as FXO Boss has the passion to keep it alive since i dont see any other sponsors except for razor.
esports has shown to be a worthwhile investment for our team, regardless of boss's passion it will be around for a long time barring any drastic things coming up in the future.
I missed this the first time around and just wanted to let you know I found it really interesting.
You weren't the only one who missed it, Chill... Very interesting indeed...
I think the Koreans can start off by taking a lesson from EG and actually promote their sponsors. How hard is it really to say "thanks to our sponsors company x, y and z" in an interview?
1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
When did you ever think it was stable/decent/good?
Currently Active Teams: NSHoseo - School team. StarTale - As you said, and as it was reported are currently facing financial difficulties. Team SCV Life - Has gone through a large number of sponsors, Coach Lee even admitting that the situation was not good, and thought about closing doors at one point.
NOTE: Other teams do have sponsors to some degree and have not posted many problems. However, Prime did have problems in the first year of their teams' existence and even posted on TL.net about looking for sponsors.
Disbanded Teams ZeNEX (now part of StarTale - who have financial troubles) Old Generations F.United WeRRa fOu (Bought by FXO) WeMade FOX Rising Star
Even the Starcraft BroodWar teams under KeSPA have been having incredible difficulties over the past few years, forcing the creation of "Team 8" just so they can operate properly.
2) The online tournament scene in Korea is essentially non-existent.
The online tournament scene in Korea has always been terrible - even for BroodWar and Warcraft 3.
Startale recently announced that it would shut down it's League of Legends team due to limited funds and focus entirely on it's SC2 division. Good news for SC2 fans of course and no doubt much cheering and jeering occurred, however it reveals a deep-seated problem. If a team as successful as Startale, who has within it's ranks so much success, cannot maintain it's League of Legends team due to lack of funds, then what on earth is going on over there in terms of sponsorship?
As a Starcraft 2 fan, this does not sound like good news to me. When a top tier team is shutting down an entire division of its operation because it is having funding issues - arguably a more profitable division considering OGN/RIOT's commitments to League of Legends, I worry. Why do I worry? Because that tells me their team is unstable, and that their Starcraft 2 division (only remaining division) is next on the chopping block.
Why is the sponsorship situation so difficult? Well unlike SC1, teams are in an awkward spot when it comes to sponsorship ROI. ROI = Return on Investment, you want to at least break even on the value you get out based on the value you put in. If you have a product to sell, ROI could be as simple as selling X more units because of your sponsorship. More often than not though it's much trickier than that, it's hard to directly prove ROI. If I see LG's logo on Nestea's shirt and then go and buy an LG television, how does LG know the cause? Some companies gather data via referral links though that is clearly not relevant in most cases. Others allow you to tell them as you "check out" where you found out about them, but that only really applies if you're buying direct. If I buy an LG TV from Amazon, how on earth can I possibly let LG know that it's because of Nestea? Short answer is, I cannot. As a result, sponsorship ROI often has to be a lot higher than you might think, because you can't accurately track it.
I would argue that is relevant in most cases, considering sponsors track those promotions to see if they are successful, and why they are successful and how they can continue with that success. Yes it is difficult, and sometimes impossible to truly account for ROI in terms of advertising efforts. That said, there are tools that can give advertisers and the ad agencies they use a good picture of what kind of effect the advertising is having.
That's right, the United States of America. One of the reasons that Koreans want to come to MLG besides the large prize-pool and good shot at winning it, is the sponsorship exposure
The only conceivable way this is true is if a teams' sponsorship is considered global, or is North American region based (or even more specific, the USA). I would argue that most of the sponsorships on current teams, are region based. I know some of the larger teams are based on global sponsorships, but most of them are region based. This is especially true for Korean teams. So for MVP to send DRG to an event, it is pointless (in terms of the sponsor exposure you think he is getting) considering the BURN energy drink isn't even sold in the US.
If I am the regional marketing manager for a company in China, and I sponsor a Chinese team, do you think I really care if they go out of China? I don't. If I am not meeting my targets within my region, I am not properly doing my job, I will most likely get fired.
Alright, now why did I mention online tournaments? I asked the Koreans how many there were and the answer? 1. 1 regular event. There have been a handful of attempts but aside from the Korean weekly, that's really about it. I asked if Korean players disliked online events and they said no, actually they enjoy them and want more. It's a chance to win some money, gain some exposure, but not have to travel to the other side of the planet to do it. It's low-risk high-reward for them and also the reason some try to compete in foreign online tournaments though as the skill level of SC2 continues to rise, cross-server player becomes less and less viable and cross-server results less and less important.
As I said earlier, the online tournament scene has always been bad in Korea for RTS games. Those players have been dominating western online tournaments for years. Since ZOTAC for Warcraft 3 - it is still dominated by Koreans and Chinese if I am not mistaken. Now look at Playhem/ZOTAC and any online qualification for a major tournament that hasn't been region restricted - Koreans dominate.
Right now online tournaments also suffer from another problem, lack of sponsorship ROI. Sure, if you win a big online event, your team will get recognition, but it's not even close to being as effective as that logo on a shirt in 1080p on a big stage with cheering fans. Some teams, realizing this, have taken matters into their own hands with so-called "title sponsorship". This involves placing the sponsor in the user ID of the player. EG is a recent example of this with Raidcall, as are Fnatic. Mousesports also do it with Card Coaches. It's smart but not necessarily effective. Neither of these brands are well known for their acronym. You put LG in IM's name and you know what it is, you put RC or CC and explanation is required. This ambiguity can work in the favor of a sponsor since curious viewers will go and look for information on what these sponsors do, but it also tosses an element of unreliability into the mix.
One word - streaming. I don't see IdrA playing in a lot of online cups like Playhem or ZOTAC. I do see IdrA streaming A LOT. He has a nice looking overlay, a nice webcam where I can see him in his jersey. He interacts with fans, they love it, he earns money for himself, and his sponsors (global and regional) earn exposure - and he remains relevant in the community.
During July, 8 of the top 50 streamers are Korean. Some of which are on foreign teams. Only one Korean is in the top 10.
Online tournaments are primarily watched by Americans, at least according to the analytics from my Twitch and Youtube channels. This is a good thing, sponsors like the American demographic and it opens up a lot of sponsorship options due to the sheer number of products available in such a large and wealthy country.
I need you to clarify something for me here: What is the "American Demographic". North America, or even more specifically, the USA, is comprised of countless demographics.
Valve understands the problem and implemented an in-game solution in the form of in-game branding. Super smart and considering Valve's history of ineptitude when it comes to eSports, quite the surprise. SC2 has no such system and there's no sign of it coming in either. Sad thing is Blizzard could pull it off, they already have a logo-decal system in the game. If you see MMA play on his European account he clearly has a Blizzcon logo and it looks good. Blizzard could implement a system which would allow authorized teams to display sponsorship logos on command structures for instance. However this probably will not happen so who is responsible for the promotion of sponsors?
In-game advertising has been done by eSports teams and tournaments in Warcraft 3 (Blizzard made game) in tournaments like NGL-ONE and others. It continues to this day in Chinese Warcraft 3 tournaments.
Additionally, VALVE let teams create their own maps that were branded in Counter-Strike 1.6 and Source (3D AIM map anyone?). I mean come on, Fnatic even has their own GUI for Counter-Strike and it is extremely successful. Leagues like CEVO have also done it in the past.
Yes these are examples done by eSports organizations and not the game developers, but isn't that what you want anyway? And it has been done in Starcraft 2 with regard to the loading screens. In the game itself, not yet - but that is why we have overlays, commercials and everything else in-between.
Also, Blizzard used to advertise A LOT (products, eSports events, etc.) on the original Battle.net. They still do.
If you are strictly talking about teams getting their logo's or team names on the lesser known tournament streams - overlays. It is not difficult to add the team name and logo to an overlay. It has been before in Starcraft 2. Example - EG's Masters Cup.
Teams can only do so much. How on earth do you promote your sponsors during an online event without having a title sponsor? There is no stage, no cameras, no live audience, your jersey is irrelevant and you might as well be wearing it on your head. Quite frankly, I think this responsibility needs to start falling to tournament organizers. If you broadcast a tournament you have the ability to display sponsorship information in your overlay. The scoreboard would be an ideal place to do so, as would winner splash-screens. I particularly like the idea of displaying the sponsors if the player wins, it just makes sense in a competitive eSport. Win and make your sponsors happy!
Relevance. The point of these online cups and tournaments (the smaller ones that are weekly) is to allow for players to earn a name for themselves. As a fan, I don't need to see their team name or sponsors or their face. I need to see their alias, and I need to see them play. Those cups are proving grounds for players, nothing more.
This all comes back around to the original topic, the sponsorship situation in Korea. It occurs to me that SCI has been focused in the wrong place. While foreigners frequently struggle to get results against Korean players, they are more often than not well-sponsored and at least get paid a nominal amount. Many Korean players don't get paid a thing and their teams struggle to find sponsorship. What Korean team has the number of sponsors that EG is sporting right now? Short answer, none of them do.
Western teams like EG and Fnatic have money because they have developed brands over years. They have done so with multiple teams and players. They catered to their fans, and their fans can easily relate to them.
There is a reason why MC is so favored amongst the Koreans - he has personality. He has a way about him that makes fans relate to him. His cocky attitude, his ridiculous ceremonies, his showmanship in interviews and in the game - these actions earn fans. How many Koreans do you see doing this on a regular basis? Hardly any.
Fact - it is easier for me to relate to IdrA than it is for me to relate to NSH San.
Also, western teams have numerous staff members and volunteers. There are dedicated marketing people on these teams. Not many of the ESF/GSL Korean teams have this kind of infrastructure.
Results do not equate sponsorship dollars, teams have been saying this for years. When a player wins a tournament, leaves their current team, or maybe was teamless to begin with - they automatically expect a huge sponsor/team deal and money bags to fall from the sky. That does not happen.
On August 29 2012 02:30 NoobSkills wrote: In the end Biscuit you're talking about the current which isn't relevant now that the BW pros are switching over. ROI will be received when the Korean fans and old BW fanboys are forced to switch over. Sure, they say they don't like the game, but when their old BW pros are making a run for an OSL, GSL, or whatever they will be watching. You might lose some people to the switch, but I would guess that the old fans won't die out just because the game is switched up they're invested in their players/teams. When all that is said and done, then it is up to the ESF teams to get that money. If they don't then KESPA has their next power play.
Forgive me if I don't rely on or trust KESPA to do things right.
Well, you say the right, but being a money hungry business isn't necessarily wrong. Besides that though you're right I full expect them to attempt to eliminate GOM ASAP. My point wasn't that KESPA was going to give GOM a pass. My point is that GOM/ESF need to step up their game because they're about to have tens of thousands of new eyes coming to SC2. GOM/ESF need to secure that sponsorship money NOW, because if they do wait, KESPA has the bankroll to snipe every single decent SC2 player from GOM and pay them a salary which will in turn kill ESF/GOM.
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: Sad thing is Blizzard could pull it off, they already have a logo-decal system in the game. If you see MMA play on his European account he clearly has a Blizzcon logo and it looks good. Blizzard could implement a system which would allow authorized teams to display sponsorship logos on command structures for instance. However this probably will not happen so who is responsible for the promotion of sponsors?
This right here! I'm an EG fan, why can't i buy from EG their logo to proudly display my support in game? Someone make this happen!
I've been suggesting inbuilt battle.net tournaments since 2010. It's so sad to see that Battle.Net 0.2 is slowly killing SC2. Props to Valve for showing incompetent Blizzard how to build an online platform.
What's worse is that for HotS Blizzard is introducing attack move units that take no skill like the warhound. Starcraft 2 needs exciting new units that require micro to make it more spectator friendly and grow it in Korea. End of the Blizzard rant but their incompetence is frustrating.
On topic, I believe raising brand awareness is an excellent idea! Hopefully Blizzard will do something in HotS to help out as well.
I think another huge gateway into sponsors are maps. Making maps with sponsor decals that don't change the gameplay could be huge. For instance, since GSL has plenty of time to prepare for each round, they could customize the maps for each match to display the sponsors for both player's teams.
On August 29 2012 08:54 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I think another huge gateway into sponsors are maps. Making maps with sponsor decals that don't change the gameplay could be huge. For instance, since GSL has plenty of time to prepare for each round, they could customize the maps for each match to display the sponsors for both player's teams.
Yeah maybe tournaments should pay for maps and/or stop stripping map team loading screen off first before we even go down that road.
This right here! I'm an EG fan, why can't i buy from EG their logo to proudly display my support in game? Someone make this happen![/QUOTE]
Yes, TB- why not contact blizzard about the current situation of the Korean teams, Have blizzard make a special 'logo' shop for teams on bnet that all players can buy for like 5$ (can be displayed via a small hologram display near cc like on some maps or on the building itself) and blizz take 30% (gives them SOME incentive to programme) and the other 70% to the authorized teams.
I think sale #s alone from this could help convince their sponsors that they're getting international recognition and continued sponsorships are worth it.
On August 29 2012 09:17 gilden wrote: TB Is the hero we deserve...
thats harsh.. you're great TB, i just wish more "famous" people would be more involved into esports. i mean, you dont even need esports/sc2 at all to survive, yet you do so much for it..
On August 29 2012 09:17 gilden wrote: TB Is the hero we deserve...
thats harsh.. you're great TB, i just wish more "famous" people would be more involved into esports. i mean, you dont even need esports/sc2 at all to survive, yet you do so much for it..
Totally did not mean to be harsh. I love everything that Total Biscuit does for the community. He really is great.
On August 29 2012 09:17 gilden wrote: TB Is the hero we deserve...
thats harsh.. you're great TB, i just wish more "famous" people would be more involved into esports. i mean, you dont even need esports/sc2 at all to survive, yet you do so much for it..
Totally did not mean to be harsh. I love everything that Total Biscuit does for the community. He really is great.
TotalBiscuit, you are quite the gentleman. You get pissed off sometimes, but that keeps you human. You are a genuine human being and you deserve so much man.
I'm surprised this hasn't been seriously discussed before. The sponsorships for the players/teams is everything with esports. The games will be good, there will be drama, the suspense will be great. We need these players to be comfortable while playing the game. That means not worrying about the money, where they are going to stay next, if they are going to have to find a job next week, and worry about the games at hand.
There needs to be some financial model that will sustain these players, and potentially for part of their futures as well.
This isn't professional sports, there aren't billions in this industry. That doesn't mean we can leave a high amount of players that have dedicated a great deal of their life to this game and to the success of it, out to dry. There needs to be some kind of stability within the players. The teams tend to take this upon themselves but we need to actually oversee that things are going correctly.
My opinion: We need more sponsors, we need sponsors to know they are getting ROI. They need to feel confident in their investment and be willing to make several more. Sponsors are what allow professional sports to succeed. They have the fans, but they also have every inch of the stadium covered with advertisements.
All tournaments will have their sponsors, they can plug them all day long. Before each series of games, both players should have their respected sponsors shown/plugged. (Maybe have the player, have a 20 second video, Name/Race/Age/Location/Sponsors before each series) Have the game screen, and implement a way to actually show the sponsors for the tournament and players. Even if players don't do as well as they hoped, their brand is being shown. The better they do, of course, the more exposure.
More emphasis on sponsors, they really do allow this sport to succeed.
On August 29 2012 09:17 gilden wrote: TB Is the hero we deserve...
thats harsh.. you're great TB, i just wish more "famous" people would be more involved into esports. i mean, you dont even need esports/sc2 at all to survive, yet you do so much for it..
Totally did not mean to be harsh. I love everything that Total Biscuit does for the community. He really is great.
i was just kidding, because frankly i feel its more like "tb's the hero we need, not the one we deserve"
It's awesome to see Shoutcraft take a stand to make online tournaments a bit more viable. I'll state the obligatory, "if only Blizz would implement... blah blah", but this community isn't excellent because it complains, it is excellent because of people like TB who are creative and intelligent enough to do something about it themselves!
Fantastic write-up, I look forward to Shoutcraft (and hopefully more online tournaments) in the future. Stay deliciously classy, TB!
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: All future SHOUTcraft tournaments and showmatches will feature the teams sponsors somewhere in the tournament overlay itself.
Ah right, should have known this was just going to be a bit of self-promotion.
I bet tournament sponsors are going to love it when team sponsors that aren't even paying the tournament are getting as much coverage as the actual sponsor.
I mean, what the hell can we actually do to keep their SC2 scene alive? The foreign scene seems to be growing, but the numbers just aren't there in Korea. Their scene in general seems so passive and willing to let itself die. If numerous 'informed' posts are to be believed, even BW was slowly declining before the release of SC2, due to a variety of reasons.
I really hope that TotalBiscuit's initiative has some effect. Otherwise, we're basically gambling on either HotS being a smashing success, or being able to cannibalize what's left of the BW fanbase by stealing their players. I'm not too hopeful that either of those will work.
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: All future SHOUTcraft tournaments and showmatches will feature the teams sponsors somewhere in the tournament overlay itself.
Ah right, should have known this was just going to be a bit of self-promotion.
I bet tournament sponsors are going to love it when team sponsors that aren't even paying the tournament are getting as much coverage as the actual sponsor.
Since the tournament sponsor is TB himself (or it is donation money, I actually can not remember right now) I do not think it will be a huge problem...
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: All future SHOUTcraft tournaments and showmatches will feature the teams sponsors somewhere in the tournament overlay itself.
Ah right, should have known this was just going to be a bit of self-promotion.
Oh you have uncovered my evil ways. Truly, you are a master detective and should apply your knowledge elsewhere. Far elsewhere
I bet tournament sponsors are going to love it when team sponsors that aren't even paying the tournament are getting as much coverage as the actual sponsor.
Now to the serious bit, you don't seem to know anything about how tournaments are organized or sponsored. A problem when trying to discuss the topic.
If you seriously think that a small logo as part of the scoreboard is anywhere CLOSE to the exposure you get from sponsoring a tournament then I don't know what to tell you other than "you are dead wrong". Actual tournament sponsors get far more than that. Large banner overlays PERMANENTLY on the screen, instead of just tiny logos there only while specific players are playing. Full-length stream-run ads which cannot be adblocked since they are being played directly by the streamer themselves. "As brought to you/sponsored by" brand recognition messages given by the casters at regular intervals. Giveaways and other promotions. All of this is what you get from sponsoring an actual tournament. Showing the sponsors of teams in online tournaments is the equivalent to allowing teams to show sponsors on their jerseys.
I don't mind criticism of my ideas, that's a great way to ensure they're air-tight and find room for improvement, I just hate dumb, lazy criticism that isn't properly thought through.
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: All future SHOUTcraft tournaments and showmatches will feature the teams sponsors somewhere in the tournament overlay itself.
Ah right, should have known this was just going to be a bit of self-promotion.
I bet tournament sponsors are going to love it when team sponsors that aren't even paying the tournament are getting as much coverage as the actual sponsor.
You mean like every other sport out there? Sponsors of golf tournaments don't have a problem with the players wearing their own sponsored clothing. Take soccer and, specifically, the Barclay's Premier League. They sponsor the league but each team is still allowed their own sponsors to be shown in the stadium and on their shirt. You could go on and on listing different sports that allow for this. You could possibly allow for the naming rights of tournaments to be sold if they are having difficulty finding a sponsor. I don't really see how what your saying would actually be an issue, to be honest.
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: All future SHOUTcraft tournaments and showmatches will feature the teams sponsors somewhere in the tournament overlay itself.
Ah right, should have known this was just going to be a bit of self-promotion.
I bet tournament sponsors are going to love it when team sponsors that aren't even paying the tournament are getting as much coverage as the actual sponsor.
Since the tournament sponsor is TB himself (or it is donation money, I actually can not remember right now) I do not think it will be a huge problem...
Good initiative TotalBiscuit, i like it
It's my understanding that the first SCI was funded by 1 month TB stream revenue and from then on it's been funded by the stream revenue of the previous SCI.
ROFL at the idea of TB getting pissed off at himself for his own idea. Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: All future SHOUTcraft tournaments and showmatches will feature the teams sponsors somewhere in the tournament overlay itself.
Ah right, should have known this was just going to be a bit of self-promotion.
I bet tournament sponsors are going to love it when team sponsors that aren't even paying the tournament are getting as much coverage as the actual sponsor.
You mean like every other sport out there? Sponsors of golf tournaments don't have a problem with the players wearing their own sponsored clothing. Take soccer and, specifically, the Barclay's Premier League. They sponsor the league but each team is still allowed their own sponsors to be shown in the stadium and on their shirt. You could go on and on listing different sports that allow for this. You could possibly allow for the naming rights of tournaments to be sold if they are having difficulty finding a sponsor. I don't really see how what your saying would actually be an issue, to be honest.
The comparison with golf is quite apt, as both are events watched by pre-filtered subsets of the general population. The trouble is with golf, it's mostly middle-aged wealthy men who watch it = highly valuable demographic--while for eSports, it's not. Hence going down that route for eSports is probably not as productive.
Would be much better if eSports went for a mass-broadcast revenue model, where they just tried to promote to the widest audience possible. But how, though? What's the go-to plan for traction?
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: Hi folks,
Over the last couple of days I've had the chance to speak to several Korean players a great deal about the situation in Korea and was surprised to hear a couple of things.
1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
2) The online tournament scene in Korea is essentially non-existent.
So why are these two facts relevant and is there a link?
Startale recently announced that it would shut down it's League of Legends team due to limited funds and focus entirely on it's SC2 division. Good news for SC2 fans of course and no doubt much cheering and jeering occurred, however it reveals a deep-seated problem. If a team as successful as Startale, who has within it's ranks so much success, cannot maintain it's League of Legends team due to lack of funds, then what on earth is going on over there in terms of sponsorship?
From what the Korean players I have spoken to tell me, things are rather grim right now. LG-IM is stable thanks in no small part to the huge LG sponsorship, by far the biggest in the Korean scene so far. Needless to say it helps that they have arguably the best stable in the world right now. Other teams are merely getting by. You've heard the stories about unsalaried players, well there are plenty of them. Even cutting corners like that, Korean teams are struggling to send anyone but an absolute safe bet over to tournaments like MLG and IPL, even more so to European events where the competition is tougher and the travel more expensive. If you don't nab one of those qualification spots with costs included, then you're going to have a bad time.
Why is the sponsorship situation so difficult? Well unlike SC1, teams are in an awkward spot when it comes to sponsorship ROI. ROI = Return on Investment, you want to at least break even on the value you get out based on the value you put in. If you have a product to sell, ROI could be as simple as selling X more units because of your sponsorship. More often than not though it's much trickier than that, it's hard to directly prove ROI. If I see LG's logo on Nestea's shirt and then go and buy an LG television, how does LG know the cause? Some companies gather data via referral links though that is clearly not relevant in most cases. Others allow you to tell them as you "check out" where you found out about them, but that only really applies if you're buying direct. If I buy an LG TV from Amazon, how on earth can I possibly let LG know that it's because of Nestea? Short answer is, I cannot. As a result, sponsorship ROI often has to be a lot higher than you might think, because you can't accurately track it.
None of that explains the Korean situation though. The problem is multi-faceted. Sponsors want ROI. They want to raise brand awareness and sell units in the demographic of SC2 viewers. However, S.Korea is not actually that big a country with an estimated population of 50 million. The UK is currently sitting closer to 70 million. To make matters worse, SC2 is not actually that popular in Korea right now. It isn't pulling in the numbers SC1 did. As a result, trying to raise brand awareness in the Korean market using SC2 team sponsorship is actually very difficult, the ROI is low. But fear not, for there is one country where advertising is king and ROI is huge! That's right, the United States of America. One of the reasons that Koreans want to come to MLG besides the large prize-pool and good shot at winning it, is the sponsorship exposure. When teams can afford it, they'll send players to MLG because it stands as one of the highest viewed SC2 events alongside IPL and Dreamhack. MLG is also very reliable when it comes to showing sponsorship logos in stage matches with high definition cameras, solid camera work and plenty of booth shots, not to mention the constant presence of player cams during matches. If you get on stage at MLG, your sponsors are happy.
However, constantly flying out to foreign events is not only expensive but can also negatively affect the players. Jetlag, sickness from airtravel, fatigue and of course a lack of practice time all take their toll. Smaller teams cannot afford to send many if any players to large foreign events unless they are able to qualify and get their ticket paid for by the event itself. What a nasty catch-22. Can't afford to send players to foreign events because of lack of sponsorship money, lack of sponsorship money because players aren't being seen at events.
Alright, now why did I mention online tournaments? I asked the Koreans how many there were and the answer? 1. 1 regular event. There have been a handful of attempts but aside from the Korean weekly, that's really about it. I asked if Korean players disliked online events and they said no, actually they enjoy them and want more. It's a chance to win some money, gain some exposure, but not have to travel to the other side of the planet to do it. It's low-risk high-reward for them and also the reason some try to compete in foreign online tournaments though as the skill level of SC2 continues to rise, cross-server player becomes less and less viable and cross-server results less and less important. Right now online tournaments also suffer from another problem, lack of sponsorship ROI. Sure, if you win a big online event, your team will get recognition, but it's not even close to being as effective as that logo on a shirt in 1080p on a big stage with cheering fans. Some teams, realizing this, have taken matters into their own hands with so-called "title sponsorship". This involves placing the sponsor in the user ID of the player. EG is a recent example of this with Raidcall, as are Fnatic. Mousesports also do it with Card Coaches. It's smart but not necessarily effective. Neither of these brands are well known for their acronym. You put LG in IM's name and you know what it is, you put RC or CC and explanation is required. This ambiguity can work in the favor of a sponsor since curious viewers will go and look for information on what these sponsors do, but it also tosses an element of unreliability into the mix.
Is it possible to create an online tournament that provides sponsorship ROI and could that help the situation in Korea?
Online tournaments are primarily watched by Americans, at least according to the analytics from my Twitch and Youtube channels. This is a good thing, sponsors like the American demographic and it opens up a lot of sponsorship options due to the sheer number of products available in such a large and wealthy country. Sponsoring an online tournament makes good business sense, chances are your ROI is gonna be great assuming the tournament is at least marginally successful in terms of views. But what of the players? I've mentioned this before in a previous blog post but no SC2 tournament has tried to do it. My opinion was vindicated by an unlikely party.
Valve understands the problem and implemented an in-game solution in the form of in-game branding. Super smart and considering Valve's history of ineptitude when it comes to eSports, quite the surprise. SC2 has no such system and there's no sign of it coming in either. Sad thing is Blizzard could pull it off, they already have a logo-decal system in the game. If you see MMA play on his European account he clearly has a Blizzcon logo and it looks good. Blizzard could implement a system which would allow authorized teams to display sponsorship logos on command structures for instance. However this probably will not happen so who is responsible for the promotion of sponsors?
Teams can only do so much. How on earth do you promote your sponsors during an online event without having a title sponsor? There is no stage, no cameras, no live audience, your jersey is irrelevant and you might as well be wearing it on your head. Quite frankly, I think this responsibility needs to start falling to tournament organizers. If you broadcast a tournament you have the ability to display sponsorship information in your overlay. The scoreboard would be an ideal place to do so, as would winner splash-screens. I particularly like the idea of displaying the sponsors if the player wins, it just makes sense in a competitive eSport. Win and make your sponsors happy!
Someone needs to step forward and do this so it might as well be me. All future SHOUTcraft tournaments and showmatches will feature the teams sponsors somewhere in the tournament overlay itself.
This all comes back around to the original topic, the sponsorship situation in Korea. It occurs to me that SCI has been focused in the wrong place. While foreigners frequently struggle to get results against Korean players, they are more often than not well-sponsored and at least get paid a nominal amount. Many Korean players don't get paid a thing and their teams struggle to find sponsorship. What Korean team has the number of sponsors that EG is sporting right now? Short answer, none of them do. As a result until the forseeable future I will be looking to focus SCI events and funding on Korea. I wish to create regular online events for Korean players to participate in and give their sponsors reliable exposure and ROI in Europe and America. I want to give Korean teams the opportunity not just to win money but actually build stability via the acquisition of new sponsors. I am hoping that SCI events in Korea will be a small step towards allowing that to happen. I will also look to find corporate sponsorship to fund additional Korean online events.
In the meantime, I would urge online tournaments to start supporting team sponsors rather than just their own. You might say "that's not our responsibility" but you have to understand that eSports is a fragile ecosystem and we depend on each other to ensure it remains alive. It is in your best interests to ensure that more money enters the scene, it benefits you as a tournament organizer, it benefits the viewers and the players. The problem is not going to fix itself, proactive effort is required by those with the power to do so.
Thanks for reading.
So I am going to do my best right here to not insult anyone, but its difficult.
The sponsorship scene GLOBALLY is a mess. The reason being, most sponsors only want to give products. FXOpen stopped soliciting sponsorships because it became this stupid game of explaining other peoples actions to sponsors. Our sponsorship for our team is the entire cost. Theres no gaps, and our team has aircon/heating non stop 24/7 all year round without issue.
The majority of Korean sponsorships are product based in the hope that in the future, they will get cash.
Now, its easy for you guys to get all riled up crying "NO CASH WTF IS THIS" but you need to look at the dollar value of an e-sport overall. The exposure is small, its to a population that has a loud MINORITY please read these two words instead of jumping on the hate wagon, who whine about paying for anything. (I applaud those who purchase products/use services just because they sponsor sc2, its unfortunate you guys aren't the loudest). They go to any forum and see pointless crap drama about hating on one person, someone leaking nude photos of another, and other childish crap. In the end, its a safer bet to not give money to the teams because of what they are supporting.
I know this is going to go down really badly with the community, but as I have said in the past ALOT has to change for e-sports to continue growing. The Korean scene will start to see some money being pumped into it now that OGN is in sc2, it has more value because its on TV, so I don't think it will be that difficult in the future to solidify some cash sponsorships. That being said, since KESPA jumped over, there are simply too many teams.
Now to your idea of creating korean events.
Well, it won't work.
From a team owners point of view the schedule is way to jammed now to fit any more in. Korean players will have to start forgetting about foreign events just so they can do everything in Korea and still keep up with practice schedules (if they dont do this the KESPA teams will romp them non stop).
The best thing that you can possibly do (total biscuit) is get your outsiders into the scene. You have soooo many followers, and such a loud voice. Its personalities who can bring in the new fresh viewership by advertising campaigns, youtube competitions, twitter competitions etc etc. Throwing some cash money at a scene in prize money will just end up being a waste in my opinion. The merging of the e-sports scene HAS to happen in order for the money to flow. Right now everything is split up, but as an industry, it can be huge.
RE: FXO sponsorship, the FXO team has plenty of money, and we are expanding on that slowly. I dare say that our team is the most financially secure out of the ESF teams right now. I don't know LG IM's situation exactly, but they would be close to the same level right now. The thing is, we aren't relying on sponsors.
Would it not make sense to tie eSports with some established "traction engines" like Scooter Braun? The guy wants to set up a media empire on not just business. Bringing eSports into the mainstream could be just the next leg his "empire of visibility" wants to do. Or at least it looks good on paper.
FXOBoss/TBiscuit, PM me if you guys need some powerpointing done for this.
RE: FXO sponsorship, the FXO team has plenty of money, and we are expanding on that slowly. I dare say that our team is the most financially secure out of the ESF teams right now. I don't know LG IM's situation exactly, but they would be close to the same level right now. The thing is, we aren't relying on sponsors.
I have no idea about the financial stability of any teams that play SC2 but how do you pay for players/facility/transportation etc. without any form of sponsorship? Results? Stream revenue? Produced content?
It'd be interesting to know of any other ways a team would be able to succeed. Even if the methods used aren't used by your own team, it's something I'd like to learn, maybe someone else would too.
Our company owns the team. Our company produces money from our business. Thus it is covered completely by another business. Something like most of the KESPA teams.
On August 29 2012 12:42 FXOGumiho wrote: Our company owns the team. Our company produces money from our business. Thus it is covered completely by another business. Something like most of the KESPA teams.
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: 1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
Calling BS, team MVP is sponsored by Lotte which is "kind of a motherfucking big company", to say the least.
Doesn't mean they they get a lot from them man. It's one thing to have a big brand attached to your jersey; it's another to actually get good funding and support from them.
TB's post might be newsworthy to some but unfortunately I cannot say the same for myself. It's been an ongoing problem since the beginning.
Online tournaments will only reward them with more prize money and a little more exposure, but not much else. You would be better off doing SC2 PC Bang Tournaments and getting the players to interact more with the fanbase in Korea if you really want to get the Korean Republic going. Not just online tournaments.
If you want to know how much a particular player is worth in sponsorship money, it's really easy to prove. Have them stream every day for a month and see how many people watch. If the Korean scene needs more money in it to sponsor players, then you need more people interested in SC2 or at least watching SC2. Trying harder to get more money from sponsors, for a product that has a limited value won't be very successful.
Korean teams should be doing more to promote active SC2 participation. In NA the continued interest in SC2 from the general population is in no small part down to the great production of live tournaments like MLG and NASL. In Korea it should be the GSL, but if they aren't getting enough viewers, it's only there own fault. Perhaps they should switch to a live event tournament format like MLG.
On August 29 2012 12:52 Taku wrote: Probability of Blizzard actually doing something innovative and productive to help the esports community without messing it up somehow? ~0% imo.
probability of anyone doing anything innovative or productive to help the esports community without messing it up somehow? 0% in actual fact
the WCS is fucking amazing and doing amazing things for communitys all over the world to help raise awareness of esports in literally every single country, in addition to helping people break out into the scene (which was amazingly hard until WCS gave everyone a good chance)
not to mention its a badass tournament with absolutely amazing games and good casting
There is a way for both teams, tournament organizers, and sponsors to all be happy.
Teams have sponsors. Sponsors have money. Tournaments need teams. Teams need a place to play and showcase their sponsors.
See where I'm going with this?
Tournament organizers can offer up a spot in a tournament to teams for say $50 - $100 per player. What the the organizer offers is: Good competition, the team's branding and sponsors displayed on stream, and a decent prize pool that can be paid out quickly.
The tournament organizer can go a step further and offer up special content packages for $10 a person that the profits can be split with whatever player helps contribute with the content.
There are ways to showcase sponsors and build income for players but tournament organizers have been too focused on themselves and not the one thing they should be focused on: the talent.
I'm glad that TB brought the state of SC2 in Korea to our attention (or at least mine, because I never realized how bad it is right now). It saddens me that so much talent from Korea can't be fully shown because of the way the system is set up.
On August 29 2012 13:32 TheAldo wrote: There is a way for both teams, tournament organizers, and sponsors to all be happy.
Teams have sponsors. Sponsors have money. Tournaments need teams. Teams need a place to play and showcase their sponsors.
See where I'm going with this?
Tournament organizers can offer up a spot in a tournament to teams for say $50 - $100 per player. What the the organizer offers is: Good competition, the team's branding and sponsors displayed on stream, and a decent prize pool that can be paid out quickly.
The tournament organizer can go a step further and offer up special content packages for $10 a person that the profits can be split with whatever player helps contribute with the content.
There are ways to showcase sponsors and build income for players but tournament organizers have been too focused on themselves and not the one thing they should be focused on: the talent.
so the korean teams cant afford to send palyers and the rich teams get more exposure?
We need strong publicity of our sponsors, teams, and players. Companies need to see a potential in the investment that they may be making. It's about gaining as much popularity as possible...seriously. We have the opportunity to really let our sponsors stand out, along with the teams. But more needs to be done with the broadcasts. We need to legitimize it from a business perspective. Some team sponsors are never shown in some tournaments, which is very disheartening when they are helping financially secure the organization.
On August 29 2012 13:32 TheAldo wrote: There is a way for both teams, tournament organizers, and sponsors to all be happy.
Teams have sponsors. Sponsors have money. Tournaments need teams. Teams need a place to play and showcase their sponsors.
See where I'm going with this?
Tournament organizers can offer up a spot in a tournament to teams for say $50 - $100 per player. What the the organizer offers is: Good competition, the team's branding and sponsors displayed on stream, and a decent prize pool that can be paid out quickly.
The tournament organizer can go a step further and offer up special content packages for $10 a person that the profits can be split with whatever player helps contribute with the content.
There are ways to showcase sponsors and build income for players but tournament organizers have been too focused on themselves and not the one thing they should be focused on: the talent.
so the korean teams cant afford to send palyers and the rich teams get more exposure?
We are talking about online tournaments and if teams CAN afford to send players to the US for MLG and get hardly any ROI, they can buy a $50 spot in an online tournament and have their brand up on the stream. This isn't unimaginable.
On August 29 2012 13:32 TheAldo wrote: There is a way for both teams, tournament organizers, and sponsors to all be happy.
Teams have sponsors. Sponsors have money. Tournaments need teams. Teams need a place to play and showcase their sponsors.
See where I'm going with this?
Tournament organizers can offer up a spot in a tournament to teams for say $50 - $100 per player. What the the organizer offers is: Good competition, the team's branding and sponsors displayed on stream, and a decent prize pool that can be paid out quickly.
The tournament organizer can go a step further and offer up special content packages for $10 a person that the profits can be split with whatever player helps contribute with the content.
There are ways to showcase sponsors and build income for players but tournament organizers have been too focused on themselves and not the one thing they should be focused on: the talent.
so the korean teams cant afford to send palyers and the rich teams get more exposure?
We are talking about online tournaments and if teams CAN afford to send players to the US for MLG and get hardly any ROI, they can buy a $50 spot in an online tournament and have their brand up on the stream. This isn't unimaginable.
the teams with lots of money will still get tons more exposure then the smaller teams so it doesnt help the struggling teams make more sponsors
hopefully KeSPA coming into the SC2 scene will have the bigger korean companies start spreading the wealth to the current SC2 teams
the only way to really fix this problem is to make E-Sports big enough that companies are willing to shell out enough money for everyone
On August 29 2012 12:42 FXOGumiho wrote: Our company owns the team. Our company produces money from our business. Thus it is covered completely by another business. Something like most of the KESPA teams.
On August 29 2012 13:17 FXOBoSs wrote: MVP's hot6 sponsorship was publicly stated to be product sponsorship.
rofl, so all they get are drinks? ahaha
They are sponsored by Lotte, which is a big company here, so in the likely case, they get drinks, food and such, which can be a big relief for a team of MVP's size.
On August 29 2012 13:17 FXOBoSs wrote: MVP's hot6 sponsorship was publicly stated to be product sponsorship.
rofl, so all they get are drinks? ahaha
They are sponsored by Lotte, which is a big company here, so in the likely case, they get drinks, food and such, which can be a big relief for a team of MVP's size.
I have become really impressed with TB over the last few weeks. I was never a fan of the play by play style of commentary, I personally prefer a commentator with deep in-game knowledge, but these last few weeks have been amazing. So thank you TB I may prefer a different casting style but I will gladly tune into all of the shoutcrafts that are korean based events.
Now the only question is how do we as the general population do our part beyond just watching?
So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
I've gotten athe same respone from the progamers I know here as well.
Even when I was living in the prime house, they seemed like they had enough money to get by. I mean they weren't swimming in money like IM or FXO is, but they are doing decently. Often times we would go out to eat, and not at cheap places either, sometimes even going out for McD's was common, and for 10+ of us living in the house, thats was 50,000 plus won just for one meal. This may not be common in all teamhouses, but still. I know by fact that prime isn't poor.
I think people think that all Korean teams apart from IM are broke and don't have 20 won to rub together, that just isn't the case. Most teams have enough to make a profit, but not enough to be sending their players out to foreign events.
Foreign events are a risk for any Korean team, so sending them will always be something that Koreans won't do unless it is a sure thing. This is fairly the same for all foreign teams except for the few bigs ones that can afford to send everyone.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
I've gotten athe same respone from the progamers I know here as well.
Even when I was living in the prime house, they seemed like they had enough money to get by. I mean they weren't swimming in money like IM or FXO is, but they are doing decently. Often times we would go out to eat, and not at cheap places either, sometimes even going out for McD's was common, and for 10+ of us living in the house, thats was 50,000 plus won just for one meal. This may not be common in all teamhouses, but still. I know by fact that prime isn't poor.
I think people think that all Korean teams apart from IM are broke and don't have 20 won to rub together, that just isn't the case. Most teams have enough to make a profit, but not enough to be sending their players out to foreign events.
Foreign events are a risk for any Korean team, so sending them will always be something that Koreans won't do unless it is a sure thing. This is fairly the same for all foreign teams except for the few bigs ones that can afford to send everyone.
44 dollars to feed 10+ growing kids is actually quite cheap. Thats like 4 dollars per person.
Good read! Its strange how Europe can have like 10 weekly tourneys and korea got 1... Just think about all the talent and potential in korea that isnt getting any exposure at all...
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
I've gotten athe same respone from the progamers I know here as well.
Even when I was living in the prime house, they seemed like they had enough money to get by. I mean they weren't swimming in money like IM or FXO is, but they are doing decently. Often times we would go out to eat, and not at cheap places either, sometimes even going out for McD's was common, and for 10+ of us living in the house, thats was 50,000 plus won just for one meal. This may not be common in all teamhouses, but still. I know by fact that prime isn't poor.
I think people think that all Korean teams apart from IM are broke and don't have 20 won to rub together, that just isn't the case. Most teams have enough to make a profit, but not enough to be sending their players out to foreign events.
Foreign events are a risk for any Korean team, so sending them will always be something that Koreans won't do unless it is a sure thing. This is fairly the same for all foreign teams except for the few bigs ones that can afford to send everyone.
44 dollars to feed 10+ growing kids is actually quite cheap. Thats like 4 dollars per person.
In korea you can get it cheaper than that if you are in a big group.
I pay for expensive bbq for the team when I go, and its like 70 bucks for 16 of us.
I recently started to organize Koreign Tournament in Korea, and I personally find difficult to find sponsors for the same reasons mentioned above. As a Foreigner in Korea and having mostly foreign viewers and players, I can only hope to attract few type of sponsors such as expat banking, hardware computer res-sellers, and few others. I am no proteam or any viral social buzz on the internet (yet), and it always takes a vicious spiral kind of feel: you need a sponsor to look more pro and attract people interest => you need to attract more people interest to attract sponsor => and so on. Thanks to TB for the nice read, I am sure we will soon talk about those issue more as SC2 HOTS comes out and SC2 regain a bit more strength against competition.
Very interesting if true. I'm not sure I would go on the word of two individuals to conclude that an entire industry is failing though, even if I trusted them. I certainly hope it isn't true.
It's admirable for TotalBiscuit to be proactive in fixing what he's perceived to be a problem, kudos for that.
With my journalism background, however, I usually assume that everyone is lying about everything until I have a reason to believe otherwise.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
Sorry for this noob question, but how does a gaming team make money?
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
I've gotten athe same respone from the progamers I know here as well.
Even when I was living in the prime house, they seemed like they had enough money to get by. I mean they weren't swimming in money like IM or FXO is, but they are doing decently. Often times we would go out to eat, and not at cheap places either, sometimes even going out for McD's was common, and for 10+ of us living in the house, thats was 50,000 plus won just for one meal. This may not be common in all teamhouses, but still. I know by fact that prime isn't poor.
I think people think that all Korean teams apart from IM are broke and don't have 20 won to rub together, that just isn't the case. Most teams have enough to make a profit, but not enough to be sending their players out to foreign events.
Foreign events are a risk for any Korean team, so sending them will always be something that Koreans won't do unless it is a sure thing. This is fairly the same for all foreign teams except for the few bigs ones that can afford to send everyone.
44 dollars to feed 10+ growing kids is actually quite cheap. Thats like 4 dollars per person.
In korea you can get it cheaper than that if you are in a big group.
I pay for expensive bbq for the team when I go, and its like 70 bucks for 16 of us.
Still, in Korea 5,000 won per person would not be something they would do if they had money. comparing I can go out and buy a lot more food cheaply in Korea, for example, Kimbap is like 1000 won per "roll" which is approx a foot long, and its alot healthier. which lets say they all eat tons of food, and they each eat 2 rolls, thats only 20,000 for a shit ton of food. plus you have to know that in Korea, 4 dollars per meal isn't a cheap meal here, it is in the west, but in Korea where the average income is something between 20-30,000 US.
My point still stand on its own though, if teams like prime and such were as poor as TB is implying, then there are 100's of cheaper and healthier food in the area where we could have eaten. The Korean teams aren't struggling for money, but they aren't bathing in it either.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
Sorry for this noob question, but how does a gaming team make money?
Bottom line. It doesn't, it just finds money to spend.
We have an e-sports team because of the internet exposure it generates us rather than a cash in hand thing. Its useful to us because our business is pretty much 100% online.
I think people could only really make money out of it if it was on TV. As in have a cash rich profitable business, not a "more sponsors to spend more money" business model.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
I've gotten athe same respone from the progamers I know here as well.
Even when I was living in the prime house, they seemed like they had enough money to get by. I mean they weren't swimming in money like IM or FXO is, but they are doing decently. Often times we would go out to eat, and not at cheap places either, sometimes even going out for McD's was common, and for 10+ of us living in the house, thats was 50,000 plus won just for one meal. This may not be common in all teamhouses, but still. I know by fact that prime isn't poor.
I think people think that all Korean teams apart from IM are broke and don't have 20 won to rub together, that just isn't the case. Most teams have enough to make a profit, but not enough to be sending their players out to foreign events.
Foreign events are a risk for any Korean team, so sending them will always be something that Koreans won't do unless it is a sure thing. This is fairly the same for all foreign teams except for the few bigs ones that can afford to send everyone.
44 dollars to feed 10+ growing kids is actually quite cheap. Thats like 4 dollars per person.
In korea you can get it cheaper than that if you are in a big group.
I pay for expensive bbq for the team when I go, and its like 70 bucks for 16 of us.
Still, in Korea 5,000 won per person would not be something they would do if they had money. comparing I can go out and buy a lot more food cheaply in Korea, for example, Kimbap is like 1000 won per "roll" which is approx a foot long, and its alot healthier. which lets say they all eat tons of food, and they each eat 2 rolls, thats only 20,000 for a shit ton of food. plus you have to know that in Korea, 4 dollars per meal isn't a cheap meal here, it is in the west, but in Korea where the average income is something between 20-30,000 US.
My point still stand on its own though, if teams like prime and such were as poor as TB is implying, then there are 100's of cheaper and healthier food in the area where we could have eaten. The Korean teams aren't struggling for money, but they aren't bathing in it either.
When I checked, average wage in KR is 18k. But I can't remember where I got that stat. I checked before going to Korea when the foreign FXO was in GSTL.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
Sorry for this noob question, but how does a gaming team make money?
Bottom line. It doesn't, it just finds money to spend.
We have an e-sports team because of the internet exposure it generates us rather than a cash in hand thing. Its useful to us because our business is pretty much 100% online.
I think people could only really make money out of it if it was on TV. As in have a cash rich profitable business, not a "more sponsors to spend more money" business model.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
Sorry for this noob question, but how does a gaming team make money?
Bottom line. It doesn't, it just finds money to spend.
We have an e-sports team because of the internet exposure it generates us rather than a cash in hand thing. Its useful to us because our business is pretty much 100% online.
I think people could only really make money out of it if it was on TV. As in have a cash rich profitable business, not a "more sponsors to spend more money" business model.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
Sorry for this noob question, but how does a gaming team make money?
Bottom line. It doesn't, it just finds money to spend.
We have an e-sports team because of the internet exposure it generates us rather than a cash in hand thing. Its useful to us because our business is pretty much 100% online.
I think people could only really make money out of it if it was on TV. As in have a cash rich profitable business, not a "more sponsors to spend more money" business model.
How far away is eSports from getting on TV?
OGN is TV.
I mean, TV internationally. Sorry, I should have been more specific.
We are effectively doing the same thing, online, as if it was on TV. We just need to advertise it correctly. A Sport being broadcasted on TV makes revenue... Ticket Sales/Advertiser Endorsement/Merchandise Sales/The Broadcasting Station buys the slot for the Sport Broadcasting Station survives by Commercials/High Ratings for a higher price for commercial placement/Some other sources I'm sure.
A Professional SC2 Team could have: Stream Revenue(Subscriptions)/Online Production(Videos/Tutorials/Coaching)/Endorsements
I feel the only way we will extend our reach to other companies that are capable of putting the money into this esport is if we really do glorify them and put them out there even more than the tournaments have been. These sponsors should feel an impact each time their brand is shown.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
I've gotten athe same respone from the progamers I know here as well.
Even when I was living in the prime house, they seemed like they had enough money to get by. I mean they weren't swimming in money like IM or FXO is, but they are doing decently. Often times we would go out to eat, and not at cheap places either, sometimes even going out for McD's was common, and for 10+ of us living in the house, thats was 50,000 plus won just for one meal. This may not be common in all teamhouses, but still. I know by fact that prime isn't poor.
I think people think that all Korean teams apart from IM are broke and don't have 20 won to rub together, that just isn't the case. Most teams have enough to make a profit, but not enough to be sending their players out to foreign events.
Foreign events are a risk for any Korean team, so sending them will always be something that Koreans won't do unless it is a sure thing. This is fairly the same for all foreign teams except for the few bigs ones that can afford to send everyone.
Didn't realize this was TotalBiscuit until I read the part about Shoutcraft and looked at the topic creator. Shame, would have been fun reading it in his voice.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
I've gotten athe same respone from the progamers I know here as well.
Even when I was living in the prime house, they seemed like they had enough money to get by. I mean they weren't swimming in money like IM or FXO is, but they are doing decently. Often times we would go out to eat, and not at cheap places either, sometimes even going out for McD's was common, and for 10+ of us living in the house, thats was 50,000 plus won just for one meal. This may not be common in all teamhouses, but still. I know by fact that prime isn't poor.
I think people think that all Korean teams apart from IM are broke and don't have 20 won to rub together, that just isn't the case. Most teams have enough to make a profit, but not enough to be sending their players out to foreign events.
Foreign events are a risk for any Korean team, so sending them will always be something that Koreans won't do unless it is a sure thing. This is fairly the same for all foreign teams except for the few bigs ones that can afford to send everyone.
44 dollars to feed 10+ growing kids is actually quite cheap. Thats like 4 dollars per person.
In korea you can get it cheaper than that if you are in a big group.
I pay for expensive bbq for the team when I go, and its like 70 bucks for 16 of us.
Still, in Korea 5,000 won per person would not be something they would do if they had money. comparing I can go out and buy a lot more food cheaply in Korea, for example, Kimbap is like 1000 won per "roll" which is approx a foot long, and its alot healthier. which lets say they all eat tons of food, and they each eat 2 rolls, thats only 20,000 for a shit ton of food. plus you have to know that in Korea, 4 dollars per meal isn't a cheap meal here, it is in the west, but in Korea where the average income is something between 20-30,000 US.
My point still stand on its own though, if teams like prime and such were as poor as TB is implying, then there are 100's of cheaper and healthier food in the area where we could have eaten. The Korean teams aren't struggling for money, but they aren't bathing in it either.
That's a bit of an exaggeration. Kimbap isn't 1 foot long, it's like at most, 6" and they're usually 1,500 won or so. And usually a bit more once you start adding extras in it.
With that being said though, food is much cheaper here. Eating out vs cooking, it's not that big of a difference.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
I've gotten athe same respone from the progamers I know here as well.
Even when I was living in the prime house, they seemed like they had enough money to get by. I mean they weren't swimming in money like IM or FXO is, but they are doing decently. Often times we would go out to eat, and not at cheap places either, sometimes even going out for McD's was common, and for 10+ of us living in the house, thats was 50,000 plus won just for one meal. This may not be common in all teamhouses, but still. I know by fact that prime isn't poor.
I think people think that all Korean teams apart from IM are broke and don't have 20 won to rub together, that just isn't the case. Most teams have enough to make a profit, but not enough to be sending their players out to foreign events.
Foreign events are a risk for any Korean team, so sending them will always be something that Koreans won't do unless it is a sure thing. This is fairly the same for all foreign teams except for the few bigs ones that can afford to send everyone.
44 dollars to feed 10+ growing kids is actually quite cheap. Thats like 4 dollars per person.
In korea you can get it cheaper than that if you are in a big group.
I pay for expensive bbq for the team when I go, and its like 70 bucks for 16 of us.
Still, in Korea 5,000 won per person would not be something they would do if they had money. comparing I can go out and buy a lot more food cheaply in Korea, for example, Kimbap is like 1000 won per "roll" which is approx a foot long, and its alot healthier. which lets say they all eat tons of food, and they each eat 2 rolls, thats only 20,000 for a shit ton of food. plus you have to know that in Korea, 4 dollars per meal isn't a cheap meal here, it is in the west, but in Korea where the average income is something between 20-30,000 US.
My point still stand on its own though, if teams like prime and such were as poor as TB is implying, then there are 100's of cheaper and healthier food in the area where we could have eaten. The Korean teams aren't struggling for money, but they aren't bathing in it either.
That's a bit of an exaggeration. Kimbap isn't 1 foot long, it's like at most, 6" and they're usually 1,500 won or so. And usually a bit more once you start adding extras in it.
With that being said though, food is much cheaper here. Eating out vs cooking, it's not that big of a difference.
I don't think so much really, I went out today and bought 2 foot long kimbap rolls for 2,000 won that that lasts me an entire day. I have not seen Kimbap for more than 1000 won a roll. unless you go to like gangnam or something.
TB has the advantage in that he's a brand already with a huge following and well established. Best of luck, man. Organising tournaments is hard work, but if someone can do it, it's you.
Just as a note on the location - could you maybe integrate it into the overlay underneath or beside the player's names? That would make the mental link a bit more obvious and in terms of location, it's a prime spot. That's the place my eyes go to most often especially after battles (food count).
Having a few sponsorship logos by the players also says "This is the company who sponsored X" and allows for a really solid chance of getting your logo viewed.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
I've gotten athe same respone from the progamers I know here as well.
Even when I was living in the prime house, they seemed like they had enough money to get by. I mean they weren't swimming in money like IM or FXO is, but they are doing decently. Often times we would go out to eat, and not at cheap places either, sometimes even going out for McD's was common, and for 10+ of us living in the house, thats was 50,000 plus won just for one meal. This may not be common in all teamhouses, but still. I know by fact that prime isn't poor.
I think people think that all Korean teams apart from IM are broke and don't have 20 won to rub together, that just isn't the case. Most teams have enough to make a profit, but not enough to be sending their players out to foreign events.
Foreign events are a risk for any Korean team, so sending them will always be something that Koreans won't do unless it is a sure thing. This is fairly the same for all foreign teams except for the few bigs ones that can afford to send everyone.
44 dollars to feed 10+ growing kids is actually quite cheap. Thats like 4 dollars per person.
In korea you can get it cheaper than that if you are in a big group.
I pay for expensive bbq for the team when I go, and its like 70 bucks for 16 of us.
Still, in Korea 5,000 won per person would not be something they would do if they had money. comparing I can go out and buy a lot more food cheaply in Korea, for example, Kimbap is like 1000 won per "roll" which is approx a foot long, and its alot healthier. which lets say they all eat tons of food, and they each eat 2 rolls, thats only 20,000 for a shit ton of food. plus you have to know that in Korea, 4 dollars per meal isn't a cheap meal here, it is in the west, but in Korea where the average income is something between 20-30,000 US.
My point still stand on its own though, if teams like prime and such were as poor as TB is implying, then there are 100's of cheaper and healthier food in the area where we could have eaten. The Korean teams aren't struggling for money, but they aren't bathing in it either.
That's a bit of an exaggeration. Kimbap isn't 1 foot long, it's like at most, 6" and they're usually 1,500 won or so. And usually a bit more once you start adding extras in it.
With that being said though, food is much cheaper here. Eating out vs cooking, it's not that big of a difference.
I don't think so much really, I went out today and bought 2 foot long kimbap rolls for 2,000 won that that lasts me an entire day. I have not seen Kimbap for more than 1000 won a roll. unless you go to like gangnam or something.
I think you don't know how big a foot is. They're usually around 8 slices, 10 if it's a particularly large one, and usually range from 6inches to 8 inches. Clearly your manliness has overestimated a foot (happens to all of us...if you know what i mean). Prices of Kimbab has risen over the last year. It used to be 1000won for a plain kimbab roll, but that has now risen to 1500. A tuna kimbab roll is around 2000-2500 won, and mandu ranges from 2500-5000 won depending on they type and the establishment. Donkas is around 6 or 7, and ramyeon is usally 2500. And trust me when I say these prices are the cheapest, I've lived in Korea jsut over 2, and the 2 full years were in a small country village. Maybe you found bob's discount kimbab, but i'd be suprised it's that cheap.
Prices correct in : most major cities, and I'm including Sangju (gyeongsangbuk), Masan (gyeongsangnam) Daegu, Busan, Pohang, Gyeongju, Gumi, and any other city where I perchanced to eat kimbab. And I eat a lot of it.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
I've gotten athe same respone from the progamers I know here as well.
Even when I was living in the prime house, they seemed like they had enough money to get by. I mean they weren't swimming in money like IM or FXO is, but they are doing decently. Often times we would go out to eat, and not at cheap places either, sometimes even going out for McD's was common, and for 10+ of us living in the house, thats was 50,000 plus won just for one meal. This may not be common in all teamhouses, but still. I know by fact that prime isn't poor.
I think people think that all Korean teams apart from IM are broke and don't have 20 won to rub together, that just isn't the case. Most teams have enough to make a profit, but not enough to be sending their players out to foreign events.
Foreign events are a risk for any Korean team, so sending them will always be something that Koreans won't do unless it is a sure thing. This is fairly the same for all foreign teams except for the few bigs ones that can afford to send everyone.
44 dollars to feed 10+ growing kids is actually quite cheap. Thats like 4 dollars per person.
In korea you can get it cheaper than that if you are in a big group.
I pay for expensive bbq for the team when I go, and its like 70 bucks for 16 of us.
Still, in Korea 5,000 won per person would not be something they would do if they had money. comparing I can go out and buy a lot more food cheaply in Korea, for example, Kimbap is like 1000 won per "roll" which is approx a foot long, and its alot healthier. which lets say they all eat tons of food, and they each eat 2 rolls, thats only 20,000 for a shit ton of food. plus you have to know that in Korea, 4 dollars per meal isn't a cheap meal here, it is in the west, but in Korea where the average income is something between 20-30,000 US.
My point still stand on its own though, if teams like prime and such were as poor as TB is implying, then there are 100's of cheaper and healthier food in the area where we could have eaten. The Korean teams aren't struggling for money, but they aren't bathing in it either.
That's a bit of an exaggeration. Kimbap isn't 1 foot long, it's like at most, 6" and they're usually 1,500 won or so. And usually a bit more once you start adding extras in it.
With that being said though, food is much cheaper here. Eating out vs cooking, it's not that big of a difference.
I don't think so much really, I went out today and bought 2 foot long kimbap rolls for 2,000 won that that lasts me an entire day. I have not seen Kimbap for more than 1000 won a roll. unless you go to like gangnam or something.
I think you don't know how big a foot is. They're usually around 8 slices, 10 if it's a particularly large one, and usually range from 6inches to 8 inches. Clearly your manliness has overestimated a foot (happens to all of us...if you know what i mean). Prices of Kimbab has risen over the last year. It used to be 1000won for a plain kimbab roll, but that has now risen to 1500. A tuna kimbab roll is around 2000-2500 won, and mandu ranges from 2500-5000 won depending on they type and the establishment. Donkas is around 6 or 7, and ramyeon is usally 2500. And trust me when I say these prices are the cheapest, I've lived in Korea jsut over 2, and the 2 full years were in a small country village. Maybe you found bob's discount kimbab, but i'd be suprised it's that cheap.
Prices correct in : most major cities, and I'm including Sangju (gyeongsangbuk), Masan (gyeongsangnam) Daegu, Busan, Pohang, Gyeongju, Gumi, and any other city where I perchanced to eat kimbab. And I eat a lot of it.
Then I have no idea why all the resturants I go to here in Bucheon have them for 1000 won a roll, and next time I buy one I'll measure it. BUT my point still stand. I have no idea where this dicussion about the prices of Kimbap came from. but going back to my orignial post on this thread.
Food is extremely cheap here and in general TB has overstated how poor the teams are, none of them are dirt broke (Zenex was though) but none are bathing in money like FXO and IM
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
I've gotten athe same respone from the progamers I know here as well.
Even when I was living in the prime house, they seemed like they had enough money to get by. I mean they weren't swimming in money like IM or FXO is, but they are doing decently. Often times we would go out to eat, and not at cheap places either, sometimes even going out for McD's was common, and for 10+ of us living in the house, thats was 50,000 plus won just for one meal. This may not be common in all teamhouses, but still. I know by fact that prime isn't poor.
I think people think that all Korean teams apart from IM are broke and don't have 20 won to rub together, that just isn't the case. Most teams have enough to make a profit, but not enough to be sending their players out to foreign events.
Foreign events are a risk for any Korean team, so sending them will always be something that Koreans won't do unless it is a sure thing. This is fairly the same for all foreign teams except for the few bigs ones that can afford to send everyone.
44 dollars to feed 10+ growing kids is actually quite cheap. Thats like 4 dollars per person.
In korea you can get it cheaper than that if you are in a big group.
I pay for expensive bbq for the team when I go, and its like 70 bucks for 16 of us.
Still, in Korea 5,000 won per person would not be something they would do if they had money. comparing I can go out and buy a lot more food cheaply in Korea, for example, Kimbap is like 1000 won per "roll" which is approx a foot long, and its alot healthier. which lets say they all eat tons of food, and they each eat 2 rolls, thats only 20,000 for a shit ton of food. plus you have to know that in Korea, 4 dollars per meal isn't a cheap meal here, it is in the west, but in Korea where the average income is something between 20-30,000 US.
My point still stand on its own though, if teams like prime and such were as poor as TB is implying, then there are 100's of cheaper and healthier food in the area where we could have eaten. The Korean teams aren't struggling for money, but they aren't bathing in it either.
That's a bit of an exaggeration. Kimbap isn't 1 foot long, it's like at most, 6" and they're usually 1,500 won or so. And usually a bit more once you start adding extras in it.
With that being said though, food is much cheaper here. Eating out vs cooking, it's not that big of a difference.
I don't think so much really, I went out today and bought 2 foot long kimbap rolls for 2,000 won that that lasts me an entire day. I have not seen Kimbap for more than 1000 won a roll. unless you go to like gangnam or something.
I think you don't know how big a foot is. They're usually around 8 slices, 10 if it's a particularly large one, and usually range from 6inches to 8 inches. Clearly your manliness has overestimated a foot (happens to all of us...if you know what i mean). Prices of Kimbab has risen over the last year. It used to be 1000won for a plain kimbab roll, but that has now risen to 1500. A tuna kimbab roll is around 2000-2500 won, and mandu ranges from 2500-5000 won depending on they type and the establishment. Donkas is around 6 or 7, and ramyeon is usally 2500. And trust me when I say these prices are the cheapest, I've lived in Korea jsut over 2, and the 2 full years were in a small country village. Maybe you found bob's discount kimbab, but i'd be suprised it's that cheap.
Prices correct in : most major cities, and I'm including Sangju (gyeongsangbuk), Masan (gyeongsangnam) Daegu, Busan, Pohang, Gyeongju, Gumi, and any other city where I perchanced to eat kimbab. And I eat a lot of it.
Then I have no idea why all the resturants I go to here in Bucheon have them for 1000 won a roll, and next time I buy one I'll measure it. BUT my point still stand. I have no idea where this dicussion about the prices of Kimbap came from. but going back to my orignial post on this thread.
Food is extremely cheap here and in general TB has overstated how poor the teams are, none of them are dirt broke (Zenex was though) but none are bathing in money like FXO and IM
I live near Bucheon. But time to go there for Kimbap!
I do not know if I am mixing BW with some kind of real sport, but didn't some BW-maps have sponsors as a part of the map sometimes? I do not know if this would be too subtle, but I know they use it in some sports, big ones as well.
Some very good points! The best suggestion is the integration of sponsors/logos in game. I know someone who has brought this to the attention of blizzard and didn’t have any success – It’s not hard to do. I wish ROI was easier but it is hard to prove activation unless you have a solid plan at tracking them, and in most cases you can’t.
Big organizations will see their sponsors get exposure before the team sponsors do. This perhaps could be setup through better analysis of the player and teams before each match. Eg. X is a member of team X and who is sponsored by X followed by a brief description. The players need to see consistency IMO many of them are not treated well considering they are a pillar of eSports Great post TotalBiscuit
On August 29 2012 22:26 pestilenz wrote: I do not know if I am mixing BW with some kind of real sport, but didn't some BW-maps have sponsors as a part of the map sometimes? I do not know if this would be too subtle, but I know they use it in some sports, big ones as well.
Just korean air's Dreamliner afaik (the decoration/map architecture had an airplane).
I think the overall sponsor situation is not as a dire as pictured by TB. However, sponsors try to pick the cherries from off the cake, in order to imporove the ROI. Companies like Red Bull are willed to invest into tournaments. They grant some nice visibilty.
So what my learning is: the teams most of all have to blame themself. Most so-called pro teams have just incredible average managers...they are not able to explain why I should sponsor 15+ people of whom only one or two will ever get a headline.
Overall i expect a decline of e-sports teams in favour of indvidually sponsored pros similar to golf or tennis players. I would sponsor MMA, but why should I sponsor his 10 sparring partners??? If I sposnor him individually I can decide to how many tournaments I pay him flights etc.
So I am going to do my best right here to not insult anyone, but its difficult.
The sponsorship scene GLOBALLY is a mess. The reason being, most sponsors only want to give products. FXOpen stopped soliciting sponsorships because it became this stupid game of explaining other peoples actions to sponsors. Our sponsorship for our team is the entire cost. Theres no gaps, and our team has aircon/heating non stop 24/7 all year round without issue.
The majority of Korean sponsorships are product based in the hope that in the future, they will get cash.
Now, its easy for you guys to get all riled up crying "NO CASH WTF IS THIS" but you need to look at the dollar value of an e-sport overall. The exposure is small, its to a population that has a loud MINORITY please read these two words instead of jumping on the hate wagon, who whine about paying for anything. (I applaud those who purchase products/use services just because they sponsor sc2, its unfortunate you guys aren't the loudest). They go to any forum and see pointless crap drama about hating on one person, someone leaking nude photos of another, and other childish crap. In the end, its a safer bet to not give money to the teams because of what they are supporting.
I know this is going to go down really badly with the community, but as I have said in the past ALOT has to change for e-sports to continue growing. The Korean scene will start to see some money being pumped into it now that OGN is in sc2, it has more value because its on TV, so I don't think it will be that difficult in the future to solidify some cash sponsorships. That being said, since KESPA jumped over, there are simply too many teams.
Now to your idea of creating korean events.
Well, it won't work.
From a team owners point of view the schedule is way to jammed now to fit any more in. Korean players will have to start forgetting about foreign events just so they can do everything in Korea and still keep up with practice schedules (if they dont do this the KESPA teams will romp them non stop).
The best thing that you can possibly do (total biscuit) is get your outsiders into the scene. You have soooo many followers, and such a loud voice. Its personalities who can bring in the new fresh viewership by advertising campaigns, youtube competitions, twitter competitions etc etc. Throwing some cash money at a scene in prize money will just end up being a waste in my opinion. The merging of the e-sports scene HAS to happen in order for the money to flow. Right now everything is split up, but as an industry, it can be huge.
RE: FXO sponsorship, the FXO team has plenty of money, and we are expanding on that slowly. I dare say that our team is the most financially secure out of the ESF teams right now. I don't know LG IM's situation exactly, but they would be close to the same level right now. The thing is, we aren't relying on sponsors.
Thanks for the post Boss, very informative. Going to give it a try anyway. It is impossible to "waste" money that is being given to progamers and being used to put on fun tournaments for the fans. SCI has always been criticized for "wasting money" on foreigners. Everytime a darkhorse or slumping player is invited there are outcries of such, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and SCI continues to be successful and pulls in numbers that only TSL can match for online events. Essentially I see no harm in giving it a shot. SCI are short, player-friendly events anyway, it does not take a lot of time out of the practice schedule at all.
Not to mention the most important point. Getting my followers into the scene. How can we possibly do that without SCI? I can cast Korean players and some people will watch them. If I create tournaments involving Korean players, MANY people will watch them. The fact is nobody gives a shit about VoDs anymore. Nobody gives a shit about replays anymore. We are seeing declining VoD views across the board. People want live games, they don't want cross-server anymore either because quite frankly the skill level of players has passed the point where the cross-server lag wasn't really a factor and entered the realm of "holy shit this makes a big difference both to the quality of the game and to the advantage of one player, these results are MEANINGLESS now".
The only solution from my perspective and my position is to get tournaments going over there. Repeatedly shouting "hey look at these Koreans" will not work. Trust me, I have tried.
On August 29 2012 22:26 pestilenz wrote: I do not know if I am mixing BW with some kind of real sport, but didn't some BW-maps have sponsors as a part of the map sometimes? I do not know if this would be too subtle, but I know they use it in some sports, big ones as well.
Just korean air's Dreamliner afaik (the decoration/map architecture had an airplane). + Show Spoiler +
mmmmmmmmm Zergliner :D, I was so happy when this was a MOTW on iccup
On August 29 2012 01:33 LuckyFool wrote: Sc2 still just isn't that popular in Korea compared to bw.
Just look at GSL live events/finals. They don't even nearly compare to bw finals which in their peak were exceeding over 100k live audiences. If I were a sponsor getting involved in something that just isn't popular in my country seems so risky. Not sure how or if it will change, bw fans are being force fed Sc2 now with the removal/switch of OSL and Proleague to SC2 but it remains to be seen if they will actually make the switch or just jump ship.
Fixed for you.
there was never 100k person live audience what are you talking about lol.
I'm talking about people attending live not watching TV or online.
On August 29 2012 01:33 LuckyFool wrote: Sc2 still just isn't that popular in Korea compared to bw.
Just look at GSL live events/finals. They don't even nearly compare to bw finals which in their peak were exceeding over 100k live audiences. If I were a sponsor getting involved in something that just isn't popular in my country seems so risky. Not sure how or if it will change, bw fans are being force fed Sc2 now with the removal/switch of OSL and Proleague to SC2 but it remains to be seen if they will actually make the switch or just jump ship.
Fixed for you.
there was never 100k person live audience what are you talking about lol.
I'm talking about people attending live not watching TV or online.
Gwangali Finals circa 2004-5 had 100k live audiences, I thought.
On August 29 2012 15:30 FXOBoSs wrote: So I just spoke to a bunch of Koreans about this thread in particular.
Every single one of them responded in the same way. "Dont take a disgruntled gamer at face value".
I dont know any back story, and I dont want to know its none of my business. But I have experienced similar in the past. There is a chance they are highly exaggerating. I am informed, everyones financials are ok. Some better than others, but everyone is doing fine.
Sorry for this noob question, but how does a gaming team make money?
Bottom line. It doesn't, it just finds money to spend.
We have an e-sports team because of the internet exposure it generates us rather than a cash in hand thing. Its useful to us because our business is pretty much 100% online.
I think people could only really make money out of it if it was on TV. As in have a cash rich profitable business, not a "more sponsors to spend more money" business model.
Why doesn't your team stream from Twitch rather than Youtube? Is there some exclusive contract I'm not aware of because I think you'd get better viewers and revenue on Twitch.
I do watch the stream when the Terran players are streaming
On August 29 2012 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: Hi folks,
Over the last couple of days I've had the chance to speak to several Korean players a great deal about the situation in Korea and was surprised to hear a couple of things.
1) The sponsorship situation in Korea is worse than I thought and the only team that is really well sponsored right now is LG-IM (none of them mentioned FXO though I assume they are doing well too atm)
2) The online tournament scene in Korea is essentially non-existent.
So why are these two facts relevant and is there a link?
Startale recently announced that it would shut down it's League of Legends team due to limited funds and focus entirely on it's SC2 division. Good news for SC2 fans of course and no doubt much cheering and jeering occurred, however it reveals a deep-seated problem. If a team as successful as Startale, who has within it's ranks so much success, cannot maintain it's League of Legends team due to lack of funds, then what on earth is going on over there in terms of sponsorship?
From what the Korean players I have spoken to tell me, things are rather grim right now. LG-IM is stable thanks in no small part to the huge LG sponsorship, by far the biggest in the Korean scene so far. Needless to say it helps that they have arguably the best stable in the world right now. Other teams are merely getting by. You've heard the stories about unsalaried players, well there are plenty of them. Even cutting corners like that, Korean teams are struggling to send anyone but an absolute safe bet over to tournaments like MLG and IPL, even more so to European events where the competition is tougher and the travel more expensive. If you don't nab one of those qualification spots with costs included, then you're going to have a bad time.
Why is the sponsorship situation so difficult? Well unlike SC1, teams are in an awkward spot when it comes to sponsorship ROI. ROI = Return on Investment, you want to at least break even on the value you get out based on the value you put in. If you have a product to sell, ROI could be as simple as selling X more units because of your sponsorship. More often than not though it's much trickier than that, it's hard to directly prove ROI. If I see LG's logo on Nestea's shirt and then go and buy an LG television, how does LG know the cause? Some companies gather data via referral links though that is clearly not relevant in most cases. Others allow you to tell them as you "check out" where you found out about them, but that only really applies if you're buying direct. If I buy an LG TV from Amazon, how on earth can I possibly let LG know that it's because of Nestea? Short answer is, I cannot. As a result, sponsorship ROI often has to be a lot higher than you might think, because you can't accurately track it.
None of that explains the Korean situation though. The problem is multi-faceted. Sponsors want ROI. They want to raise brand awareness and sell units in the demographic of SC2 viewers. However, S.Korea is not actually that big a country with an estimated population of 50 million. The UK is currently sitting closer to 70 million. To make matters worse, SC2 is not actually that popular in Korea right now. It isn't pulling in the numbers SC1 did. As a result, trying to raise brand awareness in the Korean market using SC2 team sponsorship is actually very difficult, the ROI is low. But fear not, for there is one country where advertising is king and ROI is huge! That's right, the United States of America. One of the reasons that Koreans want to come to MLG besides the large prize-pool and good shot at winning it, is the sponsorship exposure. When teams can afford it, they'll send players to MLG because it stands as one of the highest viewed SC2 events alongside IPL and Dreamhack. MLG is also very reliable when it comes to showing sponsorship logos in stage matches with high definition cameras, solid camera work and plenty of booth shots, not to mention the constant presence of player cams during matches. If you get on stage at MLG, your sponsors are happy.
However, constantly flying out to foreign events is not only expensive but can also negatively affect the players. Jetlag, sickness from airtravel, fatigue and of course a lack of practice time all take their toll. Smaller teams cannot afford to send many if any players to large foreign events unless they are able to qualify and get their ticket paid for by the event itself. What a nasty catch-22. Can't afford to send players to foreign events because of lack of sponsorship money, lack of sponsorship money because players aren't being seen at events.
Alright, now why did I mention online tournaments? I asked the Koreans how many there were and the answer? 1. 1 regular event. There have been a handful of attempts but aside from the Korean weekly, that's really about it. I asked if Korean players disliked online events and they said no, actually they enjoy them and want more. It's a chance to win some money, gain some exposure, but not have to travel to the other side of the planet to do it. It's low-risk high-reward for them and also the reason some try to compete in foreign online tournaments though as the skill level of SC2 continues to rise, cross-server player becomes less and less viable and cross-server results less and less important. Right now online tournaments also suffer from another problem, lack of sponsorship ROI. Sure, if you win a big online event, your team will get recognition, but it's not even close to being as effective as that logo on a shirt in 1080p on a big stage with cheering fans. Some teams, realizing this, have taken matters into their own hands with so-called "title sponsorship". This involves placing the sponsor in the user ID of the player. EG is a recent example of this with Raidcall, as are Fnatic. Mousesports also do it with Card Coaches. It's smart but not necessarily effective. Neither of these brands are well known for their acronym. You put LG in IM's name and you know what it is, you put RC or CC and explanation is required. This ambiguity can work in the favor of a sponsor since curious viewers will go and look for information on what these sponsors do, but it also tosses an element of unreliability into the mix.
Is it possible to create an online tournament that provides sponsorship ROI and could that help the situation in Korea?
Online tournaments are primarily watched by Americans, at least according to the analytics from my Twitch and Youtube channels. This is a good thing, sponsors like the American demographic and it opens up a lot of sponsorship options due to the sheer number of products available in such a large and wealthy country. Sponsoring an online tournament makes good business sense, chances are your ROI is gonna be great assuming the tournament is at least marginally successful in terms of views. But what of the players? I've mentioned this before in a previous blog post but no SC2 tournament has tried to do it. My opinion was vindicated by an unlikely party.
Valve understands the problem and implemented an in-game solution in the form of in-game branding. Super smart and considering Valve's history of ineptitude when it comes to eSports, quite the surprise. SC2 has no such system and there's no sign of it coming in either. Sad thing is Blizzard could pull it off, they already have a logo-decal system in the game. If you see MMA play on his European account he clearly has a Blizzcon logo and it looks good. Blizzard could implement a system which would allow authorized teams to display sponsorship logos on command structures for instance. However this probably will not happen so who is responsible for the promotion of sponsors?
Teams can only do so much. How on earth do you promote your sponsors during an online event without having a title sponsor? There is no stage, no cameras, no live audience, your jersey is irrelevant and you might as well be wearing it on your head. Quite frankly, I think this responsibility needs to start falling to tournament organizers. If you broadcast a tournament you have the ability to display sponsorship information in your overlay. The scoreboard would be an ideal place to do so, as would winner splash-screens. I particularly like the idea of displaying the sponsors if the player wins, it just makes sense in a competitive eSport. Win and make your sponsors happy!
Someone needs to step forward and do this so it might as well be me. All future SHOUTcraft tournaments and showmatches will feature the teams sponsors somewhere in the tournament overlay itself.
This all comes back around to the original topic, the sponsorship situation in Korea. It occurs to me that SCI has been focused in the wrong place. While foreigners frequently struggle to get results against Korean players, they are more often than not well-sponsored and at least get paid a nominal amount. Many Korean players don't get paid a thing and their teams struggle to find sponsorship. What Korean team has the number of sponsors that EG is sporting right now? Short answer, none of them do. As a result until the forseeable future I will be looking to focus SCI events and funding on Korea. I wish to create regular online events for Korean players to participate in and give their sponsors reliable exposure and ROI in Europe and America. I want to give Korean teams the opportunity not just to win money but actually build stability via the acquisition of new sponsors. I am hoping that SCI events in Korea will be a small step towards allowing that to happen. I will also look to find corporate sponsorship to fund additional Korean online events.
In the meantime, I would urge online tournaments to start supporting team sponsors rather than just their own. You might say "that's not our responsibility" but you have to understand that eSports is a fragile ecosystem and we depend on each other to ensure it remains alive. It is in your best interests to ensure that more money enters the scene, it benefits you as a tournament organizer, it benefits the viewers and the players. The problem is not going to fix itself, proactive effort is required by those with the power to do so.
Thanks for reading.
So I am going to do my best right here to not insult anyone, but its difficult.
The sponsorship scene GLOBALLY is a mess. The reason being, most sponsors only want to give products. FXOpen stopped soliciting sponsorships because it became this stupid game of explaining other peoples actions to sponsors. Our sponsorship for our team is the entire cost. Theres no gaps, and our team has aircon/heating non stop 24/7 all year round without issue.
The majority of Korean sponsorships are product based in the hope that in the future, they will get cash.
Now, its easy for you guys to get all riled up crying "NO CASH WTF IS THIS" but you need to look at the dollar value of an e-sport overall. The exposure is small, its to a population that has a loud MINORITY please read these two words instead of jumping on the hate wagon, who whine about paying for anything. (I applaud those who purchase products/use services just because they sponsor sc2, its unfortunate you guys aren't the loudest). They go to any forum and see pointless crap drama about hating on one person, someone leaking nude photos of another, and other childish crap. In the end, its a safer bet to not give money to the teams because of what they are supporting.
I know this is going to go down really badly with the community, but as I have said in the past ALOT has to change for e-sports to continue growing. The Korean scene will start to see some money being pumped into it now that OGN is in sc2, it has more value because its on TV, so I don't think it will be that difficult in the future to solidify some cash sponsorships. That being said, since KESPA jumped over, there are simply too many teams.
Now to your idea of creating korean events.
Well, it won't work.
From a team owners point of view the schedule is way to jammed now to fit any more in. Korean players will have to start forgetting about foreign events just so they can do everything in Korea and still keep up with practice schedules (if they dont do this the KESPA teams will romp them non stop).
The best thing that you can possibly do (total biscuit) is get your outsiders into the scene. You have soooo many followers, and such a loud voice. Its personalities who can bring in the new fresh viewership by advertising campaigns, youtube competitions, twitter competitions etc etc. Throwing some cash money at a scene in prize money will just end up being a waste in my opinion. The merging of the e-sports scene HAS to happen in order for the money to flow. Right now everything is split up, but as an industry, it can be huge.
RE: FXO sponsorship, the FXO team has plenty of money, and we are expanding on that slowly. I dare say that our team is the most financially secure out of the ESF teams right now. I don't know LG IM's situation exactly, but they would be close to the same level right now. The thing is, we aren't relying on sponsors.
Literally swimming in forex cash! Jokes aside, I have a question : in your opinion, what exactly would esport need to attract real sponsorship?
On August 29 2012 12:52 Taku wrote: Probability of Blizzard actually doing something innovative and productive to help the esports community without messing it up somehow? ~0% imo.
Yeah lets shit on Blizzard and then go watch their WCS Tournament this weekend which has been a major undertaking and a massive success... But, whatever they arn't doing exactly what we want at all times so fuck those guys.
Seriously, how can anyone blame blizzard for this stuff?
Well if FXOboss and TotalBiscuit could pull their own heads out of their own asses for a second, they might realize that they might work together to make the korean sc2 scene a better place. Both of you dont seem to realize how nicely you could help each other out. You could work together on a seperate project, that would benefit the whole scene (with your combined expertises), but you wont, because you have enough to do with your regular scedules. You will both persue your own interests and this whole debate in this topic is just a waste of space.
I dont doubt for a second that both of you have the noblest intentions concerning the sc2 esports-scene (korea in this matter), but both of you wont cooperate. Which would make this discussion a little bit meaningfull. Both of you can state your points all day long. Boss you do that often enough in your blog, and you dont seem to have the intention of beeing a creative force that changes things, and tb, well he is just a nerd that wants to help the scene grow and if it makes him money, thats a bonus.
Both of you are very outspoken and both of you dont seem to go the last step to really make me believe in you. I might have gotten this all wrong, but if you two are really interested in helping the korean sc2 scene, than why dont you two work together and try to make it better? I guess both of you rather point out the differences between you two , than to do anything like that. Rather point out what is difficult, than try to change anything.
You two speak like you could change something in a meaningfull way, but both of you dont seem to be able to forget your own ego and maybe help things along.
Sorry for that rant. I am a little bit drunk and if my words are confusing, well i am confused enough. @ fxoBoss stop talking, start doing @ TB stop validating with other people, start doing. + @ Both start working together and forget your inflated egos.
On August 31 2012 07:50 BlueFlames wrote: Well if FXOboss and TotalBiscuit could pull their own heads out of their own asses for a second, they might realize that they might work together to make the korean sc2 scene a better place. Both of you dont seem to realize how nicely you could help each other out. You could work together on a seperate project, that would benefit the whole scene (with your combined expertises), but you wont, because you have enough to do with your regular scedules. You will both persue your own interests and this whole debate in this topic is just a waste of space.
I dont doubt for a second that both of you have the noblest intentions concerning the sc2 esports-scene (korea in this matter), but both of you wont cooperate. Which would make this discussion a little bit meaningfull. Both of you can state your points all day long. Boss you do that often enough in your blog, and you dont seem to have the intention of beeing a creative force that changes things, and tb, well he is just a nerd that wants to help the scene grow and if it makes him money, thats a bonus.
Both of you are very outspoken and both of you dont seem to go the last step to really make me believe in you. I might have gotten this all wrong, but if you two are really interested in helping the korean sc2 scene, than why dont you two work together and try to make it better? I guess both of you rather point out the differences between you two , than to do anything like that. Rather point out what is difficult, than try to change anything.
You two speak like you could change something in a meaningfull way, but both of you dont seem to be able to forget your own ego and maybe help things along.
Sorry for that rant. I am a little bit drunk and if my words are confusing, well i am confused enough. @ fxoBoss stop talking, start doing @ TB stop validating with other people, start doing. + @ Both start working together and forget your inflated egos.
What is this project idea? Sober up and post it please.
I was wondering if Totalbiscuit and Diamond could team up and merge the esv and shoutcraft tournaments into a big regular online tournament for Korea. Diamond has lots of experience with running tournaments in the Korean scene and TB can bring in lots more viewers and money than esv could by casting the quarterfinals and up as if it was a shoutcraft invitational. I think it would be cool to try at least.
Not sure what TB and boss could do together though Im sure if they did work together they'd do something awesome.
On August 31 2012 07:50 BlueFlames wrote: Well if FXOboss and TotalBiscuit could pull their own heads out of their own asses for a second, they might realize that they might work together to make the korean sc2 scene a better place. Both of you dont seem to realize how nicely you could help each other out. You could work together on a seperate project, that would benefit the whole scene (with your combined expertises), but you wont, because you have enough to do with your regular scedules. You will both persue your own interests and this whole debate in this topic is just a waste of space.
I dont doubt for a second that both of you have the noblest intentions concerning the sc2 esports-scene (korea in this matter), but both of you wont cooperate. Which would make this discussion a little bit meaningfull. Both of you can state your points all day long. Boss you do that often enough in your blog, and you dont seem to have the intention of beeing a creative force that changes things, and tb, well he is just a nerd that wants to help the scene grow and if it makes him money, thats a bonus.
Both of you are very outspoken and both of you dont seem to go the last step to really make me believe in you. I might have gotten this all wrong, but if you two are really interested in helping the korean sc2 scene, than why dont you two work together and try to make it better? I guess both of you rather point out the differences between you two , than to do anything like that. Rather point out what is difficult, than try to change anything.
You two speak like you could change something in a meaningfull way, but both of you dont seem to be able to forget your own ego and maybe help things along.
Sorry for that rant. I am a little bit drunk and if my words are confusing, well i am confused enough. @ fxoBoss stop talking, start doing @ TB stop validating with other people, start doing. + @ Both start working together and forget your inflated egos.
It's remarkably arrogant for you to come in here and lecture these two professionals on how they should do their job. Since both their incomes rely on e-Sports, you can bet your ass they want e-sports to succeed. You think if it was as easy as your drunken self thinks it is, they wouldn't have already done it?
I'd like to thank both TB and BoSs for their contribution to the community on these forums, it's always a pleasure to read your insights. (and i'm mad jelly at BoSs but whatever XD)
FXOboss's globalization is the endpoint that we're all trying to get to. But it has to first be mobilized by people like TB, we don't all have a forex company sponsoring us...
I applaud TotalBiscuit for his grassroots movement. Things can get done if there's a rally cry for it. And we all know how big TB's voice is...this whole thread is one hell of a rally cry.
Thanks again. You have my support, In writing and in dollars and cents.
On August 29 2012 01:33 LuckyFool wrote: Sc2 still just isn't that popular in Korea compared to bw.
Just look at GSL live events/finals. They don't even nearly compare to bw finals which in their peak were exceeding over 100k live audiences. If I were a sponsor getting involved in something that just isn't popular in my country seems so risky. Not sure how or if it will change, bw fans are being force fed Sc2 now with the removal/switch of OSL and Proleague to SC2 but it remains to be seen if they will actually make the switch or just jump ship.
Fixed for you.
there was never 100k person live audience what are you talking about lol.
I'm talking about people attending live not watching TV or online.
On August 31 2012 07:50 BlueFlames wrote: Both of you are very outspoken and both of you dont seem to go the last step to really make me believe in you. I might have gotten this all wrong, but if you two are really interested in helping the korean sc2 scene, than why dont you two work together and try to make it better? I guess both of you rather point out the differences between you two , than to do anything like that. Rather point out what is difficult, than try to change anything.
BoSs funds an entire Korean team. If we're putting a charitable spin on things and talking about helping out the Korean scene, I'd say he's done his fair share, wouldn't you?
On August 29 2012 01:33 LuckyFool wrote: Sc2 still just isn't that popular in Korea compared to bw.
Just look at GSL live events/finals. They don't even nearly compare to bw finals which in their peak were exceeding over 100k live audiences. If I were a sponsor getting involved in something that just isn't popular in my country seems so risky. Not sure how or if it will change, bw fans are being force fed Sc2 now with the removal/switch of OSL and Proleague to SC2 but it remains to be seen if they will actually make the switch or just jump ship.
Fixed for you.
there was never 100k person live audience what are you talking about lol.
I'm talking about people attending live not watching TV or online.