Adam Sandler and Jack Nicholson both just finished some very brutal ladder sessions.
Starcraft attracts a lot of very competitive people. Maybe competitive people are more inclined to play the game because they love the challenge of a very difficult game. Or maybe with all the 4gates, 6gates, 6pools, 10pools, 11/11 raxes, 1/1/1's, DT rushes, roach rushes, 1-base colossus rushes, and everything else hiding in the corners of the game waiting to kill you, the only people who would ever take that kind of mental punishment and keep coming back are people who are addicted to winning.
In any case, if you meet a random person on ladder, there's an excellent chance they're a very competitive person. They're playing the game for the same reason you probably are: they love winning. They're willing to mentally invest in the game to a degree that most of the population couldn't muster, and they're happiness in the next half hour or so is significantly affected by the success or failure of their play in this game.
And that means that as much as they love winning, they probably also hate losing. A lot. Losing is a massive mental threat at all times, able at any time to wreck your state of mind. In fact there's a significant number of people who love Starcraft 2, and want to get good at it, and have time to play a lot, but don't out of fear of losing. Some of them got a league promotion, then quit playing, and now they're scared to play again because they know they're out of practice and they don't want to be demoted again. If you don't believe me, type "ladder anxiety" into that search bar at the top right and see just how many threads come up.
Just in case you've never experienced a really tough loss before, or you don't feel the same intensity of negative emotion when you lose like some people take a moment to consider their state of mind when they lose the game. They mustered the courage to hit that find match button, which means they mentally committed to putting everything they've got into winning the upcoming game. They put their best strategy into play, microed their heart out, made the best decisions they could as the game developed. Their body filled with adrenaline over the course of the match, agitating their nervous system and intensifying everything they experienced. And then despite everything they could muster, they lost. They failed. The absolute best skills they could muster still weren't up to the task. And at the moment that it becomes clear the game is unwinnable, their mind is suddenly forced to come to terms with that shortcoming.
Of course, not everybody feels that way after a loss. Sometimes they didn't invest everything in the match; maybe they're testing and refining a new build, or maybe they're just messing around Funday Monday style and expecting to lose, or maybe they're just incredibly good-natured about losing. Thorzain is one of my favorite progamers, among other reasons because when I watch his stream, he seems almost completely unfazed by losses. After a brutal loss, he'll just state factually "I should have checked for an expansion, I would have seen that blink all-in coming" or "Man, I thought I had really perfected my response to baneling busts. I guess I still need to work on that."
But as the victor in this game, it's very difficult to know what state of mind your opponent is in. Maybe they're Thorzain, and they're already watching the replay to see what they could have done differently. Or maybe they're pulling their hair out, and on the verge of smashing their new mechanical keyboard into the corner of their desk.
I'm writing this wall of text to reinforce two pieces of wisdom that you are probably already familiar with, because even though you've heard them before, you may not have heard a justification for the advice; it was probably just asserted. And I wanted to give whatever miniscule number of people actually bother to read my blog a justification for these pieces of wisdom, with proper context included.
-When you lose a game, always type gg or something equivalent. Always. Because everyone loses games; that's how you get better. But in order to improve, you need to accept that you lost and they won. Fair and square. Don't blame a build order loss. Don't complain about balance. Don't swear at them for their bullshit cheese, or their incredibly greedy opening, or their totally luck-based play.
Because maybe it was a build order loss. And maybe their race is completely and totally imbalanced. And maybe that build really was bullshit cheese, or stupidly greedy, or completely and totally luck-based. But none of that changes the fact that your job as the player is to find a way to win. You failed; he succeeded. And all of those other excuses are because you don't want to accept those facts. And I swear to you from a great deal of personal experience that losing is a hell of a lot less painful if you just accept it. Don't make excuses; just accept it. Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job. He pulled off a win, based on his own merit, and you need to recognize that. As for the other piece of advice:
-When you win a game, be respectful to your opponent. Don't type gg before he does to get him to leave the game. Don't message him after the game, even if what you want to say is totally innocent. If he types gg and leaves the game before you can respond, you could message him to say gg, but it's probably best if you don't. If he did some bullshit cheesy strat, and put you way behind, but in an epic struggle of titans you finally pulled it back and defeated him against all odds, don't insult his skill. Don't brag about your incredible comeback. Don't say "wow that was such an epic game! that was awesome!" As a matter of fact, just shut the hell up.
Because maybe he's good at dealing with losses and isn't even slightly upset. Maybe he's five hours into a ladder session and he barely even responds to wins or losses before hitting find match again. But he could also be raging harder than you could imagine right at this moment, in which case you're the absolute last person he wants to hear from right now. And since you don't know what state of mind he's in right now, just don't say anything. If he wants to talk to you, he can message you just as easily as you can message him. Otherwise, messaging him can pretty much only do harm.
And if you think he's lost the game but he hasn't gg'd yet, just shut the fuck up and play out the game. Because I don't care if he's "wasting your time." If he really has lost, and he just hasn't gg'd yet, then he's probably sitting back from his computer and taking a moment to cope with the loss, in which case you can wait 15 seconds to let him deal with the loss. Otherwise he presumably thinks he can still win the game, in which case he may know something you don't, and the game isn't actually over yet. So either the game really is over and you're an asshole who's aggravating your opponent's mental state to try to save yourself a minute at most, or the game isn't actually over and you're simply wrong (and still probably an asshole).
I'm not totally sure what typing out this blog will accomplish. If you have trouble dealing with losses on ladder, I hope my advice helps. But mostly I'm posting this because there always seems to be a lot of people that simply don't understand why prematurely gg'ing is so rude, or why they shouldn't message their opponent after the game. And if you know just how much damage you could be doing, and you do it anyway, then + Show Spoiler +
fuck you, but at least
you understand the consequences of your actions. But a lot of people BM in this manner simply because they don't seem to understand why what they're doing is bad.
So if you didn't understand before, hopefully now you do. and for the majority of TL that would never think of BMing, <3's to you, and I sincerely hope you didn't find my blog to be a waste of time!
It's true, being polite on ladder takes off some of the stress. I find it easier to think 'oh, he was a good player, so I lost' rather than 'jesus christ what a broken fucking game stupid newbie imba'. At worst, bitch about the opponent to your friends later rather than to the opponent directly.
I've actually made some of my better Bnet friends out of random ladder games.
The only time I don't gg after a loss is when people are bm to me during the game, because I'm too busy punching a pillow or some shit, but for the most part I agree with you. Pming someone after the game is dickish and unnecessary.
Thanks for this. I'm not BM by any means, but I occasionally PM my opponent with advice for how he could have done better, and only now do I realise how much that could piss people off. Just because I wouldn't mind if someone did that to me doesn't make everyone else the same. I'll stop from now on.
I never GG if it's not a good game. and sadly SC2 doesn't produce much good games. It's not that I don't like the game but it doesn't produce good games very often. I didn't notice this until I played around 50 games in Hots, where I had some really FUN game even when I lost.
There are so much less about whether the emp hit or not. less about getting those units fungal'd or not. less about getting the FFs down or not. less about landing that vortex etc
I was having a blast in the beta until today when I random'd zerg against some protoss who used immortal sentry all in. (I tell my race when I random) and right away, the game was so very boring, it's almost like watching him play the game of landing forcefield correctly
oh i went off topic quite a bit. I think a little bit of rage is fine. as long as you aren't bm about the opponent. I rarely rage but sometimes when I lose because I didn't get the emp/fungal/storm off in a 200/200 ball dance and lose, i rage.
I really hate how the game is so decisive on landing that one spell in the 200/200 ball battle
Its not necessary to type gg. There are many other multiplayer games where people don't type gg, and aren't vilified for it or considered "bad mannered". As far as I know, typing "gg" is a unique phenomenon, which originally didn't even exist in Starcraft 1 for a while until it was introduced by someone and it caught on.
There is one thing I wish people would recognize. There is a difference between something being a voluntary pleasantry, and something being compulsory. I feel like typing "gg" has become so ubiquitous, that people feel almost forced to type it, otherwise they're seen as rude or bad mannered. This is totally illogical...what people are effectively saying is:
"If you're not nice to me, then you're a bad person". Or "If you're not nice to me when you lose, then you're obviously a very angry person who can't control his emotions"
Now it is nice to hear someone type gg, at least I can understand how it might be nice. But these days if I were playing I wouldn't feel anything, because I know that gg is practically a compulsory and robotic thing that everyone types without any additional interaction (same with "glhf"). It takes next to no effort to type it in and then immediately leave before I have time to respond.
If you truly want to be courteous, then do things differently. Try typing in "gg" in capital letters to show that you meant it, or add in some quirky difference like a love sign. Otherwise its robotic and meaningless, at least it is to me, when you hear it hundreds of times without any other interaction.
If people don't type it, then remember it doesn't mean they "rage quit" or are "disrespectful". Its just a game, not a competitive show match. People don't have to salute your skill, they are allowed to play just because they enjoy the game and aren't interested in being nice to you. That is perfectly fine, and shouldn't be the cause of any contempt, no matter how small.
I don't think the OP is necessarily saying these things, but I thought since we're on the subject of courtesy, I may as well add in this element. Be courteous to those who couldn't care less for typing "gg" or "glhf". And by be courteous, all I mean is, either leave them alone or say something nice, just as long as you aren't offended by them.
On December 10 2012 01:08 ETisME wrote: I never GG if it's not a good game. and sadly SC2 doesn't produce much good games. It's not that I don't like the game but it doesn't produce good games very often. I didn't notice this until I played around 50 games in Hots, where I had some really FUN game even when I lost.
There are so much less about whether the emp hit or not. less about getting those units fungal'd or not. less about getting the FFs down or not. less about landing that vortex etc
I was having a blast in the beta until today when I random'd zerg against some protoss who used immortal sentry all in. (I tell my race when I random) and right away, the game was so very boring, it's almost like watching him play the game of landing forcefield correctly
oh i went off topic quite a bit. I think a little bit of rage is fine. as long as you aren't bm about the opponent. I rarely rage but sometimes when I lose because I didn't get the emp/fungal/storm off in a 200/200 ball dance and lose, i rage.
I really hate how the game is so decisive on landing that one spell in the 200/200 ball battle
Seriously reread this
On December 09 2012 23:35 ChristianS wrote: -When you lose a game, always type gg or something equivalent. Always. Because everyone loses games; that's how you get better. But in order to improve, you need to accept that you lost and they won. Fair and square. Don't blame a build order loss. Don't complain about balance. Don't swear at them for their bullshit cheese, or their incredibly greedy opening, or their totally luck-based play.
Because maybe it was a build order loss. And maybe their race is completely and totally imbalanced. And maybe that build really was bullshit cheese, or stupidly greedy, or completely and totally luck-based. But none of that changes the fact that your job as the player is to find a way to win. You failed; he succeeded. And all of those other excuses are because you don't want to accept those facts. And I swear to you from a great deal of personal experience that losing is a hell of a lot less painful if you just accept it. Don't make excuses; just accept it. Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job. He pulled off a win, based on his own merit, and you need to recognize that.
If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
On December 10 2012 01:08 ETisME wrote: I never GG if it's not a good game.
I've heard this position a few times. I guess it makes sense, if you take gg to mean literally that the game was good as a factual statement. I think of it more as that your opponent played a good game, rather than that it was a good game, because just stating that the game was good at the end of every game a) isn't always true, and b)is a weird thing to randomly state anyway.
If you don't have problems with ladder rage, though, then not gg'ing isn't such a big deal. Your opponent just won the game, so he probably isn't too upset about it. But it really does help deal with ladder rage. And if you can deal with ladder rage more effectively, then ladder anxiety is reduced because the thought of losing isn't so scary
This thread's silly. The people with "ladder anxiety" are, in general, NOT competitive people or competitive players but casuals inhabiting the lowest leagues.
On December 10 2012 01:26 y0su wrote: Seriously reread this ... If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
Are you actually trying to push someone away from Starcraft 2 because they don't say gg every game? That's what it reads like, and that would count as being a douche.
Being "well-mannered" means nothing if you're a douche. Like the people who demand gg's after games, or start yelling at you because you didn't say gl hf at the start. You're not entitled to anything from your opponent. It's even fine for someone to entirely ignore any attempt at communication - they're just as entitled to not talk to you as you are to try talking to them.
When i played a lot SC2, i simply didn't say anything. If the game is over and i lost, i leave the game. If the game is over and my opponent ggs and just waits, i still don't care to respond.
I live by the golden rule, "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself." I don't gain anything from typing gg and i don't gain anything from my opponent typing gg. To me, it's nice if people want to write it and props to people who do. But when i laddered, it was just to play, not to socialize.
Not saying anything also means that i'm not whining about balance, i don't complain if i get cheesed, i accept if i lost fully and i enjoy it when i win.
On December 10 2012 02:51 Scholera wrote: This thread's silly. The people with "ladder anxiety" are, in general, NOT competitive people or competitive players but casuals inhabiting the lowest leagues.
Losing is fine.
Um, no, not really. Tons of people I get matched against talk about having "ladder anxiety" (myself included), and I'm in diamond. I know that diamond sounds nooby to people because it's TL and we're elitists, but if you're diamond, you're better than 85% of people who play the game in your region, which is hardly "casual" for a game as difficult as SC2.
edit: actually it's probably less than 85% since I'm sure a lot of the really low league people are semi-inactives or smurfs or people who mostly only play team or whatnot, I'm not exactly sure how SC2ranks pulls its data together, but I still think that if you're diamond and didn't have previous RTS experience that meant you came in with strong mechanics or something, any gaming community other than TL would consider you "competitive" or "hardcore" for the amount of work you have to put in to get there
This was such a great read. Your post echos my thoughts about the competitive nature of the game exactly. Both players are coming from the same point, trying to reach the same goals. Very eloquently put in the first few paragraphs. You made me feel real sympathy for my opponents. As I was reading I remembered some of the games I played today and thought "hmm yeah I could have been more good mannered there." What this post shows though is that other players are not only opponents but fellow competitors. We all partake in this mentality of winning.
On December 10 2012 01:26 y0su wrote: Seriously reread this ... If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
Are you actually trying to push someone away from Starcraft 2 because they don't say gg every game? That's what it reads like, and that would count as being a douche.
Being "well-mannered" means nothing if you're a douche. Like the people who demand gg's after games, or start yelling at you because you didn't say gl hf at the start. You're not entitled to anything from your opponent. It's even fine for someone to entirely ignore any attempt at communication - they're just as entitled to not talk to you as you are to try talking to them.
I have to agree. There've been countless times where people come to me after a game almost demanding that I say gg. If I dont think it was a good game, I'm not going to say so. The people who say gg in the game and try to tell me how badly I played afterwards are even worse. I've resorted to muting everyone I play against, just because I'd rather not talk to such people.
I don't understand what's wrong with not saying anything at all. Demanding that others try to be courteous to acknowledge someone else's superiority doesnt seem to make the environment any better.
Nice read, but I disagree with not chatting in case you won.
I had a few times I didn't gg, but if they'd just chat me gg, I wouldn't take it the wrong way. If anything, I'd feel bad about not gg'ing myself
Actually, I've made a few friends chatting with 'em after a lost game. Of course, bad manners, insults, or just scoffing at their skill doesn't do much. But just discussing it was a close game, or discussing strategy, is a great way to improve your game and accept up your loss.
Hey, when I had close games, I would hardly rage, even more if the other guy would chat me up saying it was indeed pretty close. The negativity that comes with losing a game involves asserting your skill way lower than where it is. A close game means that your skill game-wise wasn't as bad and that a few things would have helped you on your way to victory.
My analogy to not gging after a game of SC2 is the following.
Walk into a park's tennis court as a solo player, find that there is another person occupying it. While you do not know this person, he is a player, and both of you agree to play a match. After match is over, its natural to display sportsmanship by shaking hands. Not gging is walking away without shaking hands. Rude much.
Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job.
The OP is pretty good overall, but here is where I have to disagree. The meaning of doing a "good job" is not entirely dependent upon the outcome of the game. I've seen people do a truly horrible job and win. You listed some of the reasons this could occur. Some players don't deserve the respect of a gg.
Yea this has been discussed a million times but gging is not necessary. I never cared when people didn't say it to me. Actually I probably prefer when people don't say it cause there are assholes that say it then stay in the game for 5 more minutes.
Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job.
The OP is pretty good overall, but here is where I have to disagree. The meaning of doing a "good job" is not entirely dependent upon the outcome of the game. I've seen people do a truly horrible job and win. You listed some of the reasons this could occur. Some players don't deserve the respect of a gg.
4/5 from me.
Certainly he might not be a better player than you. He might not even be a good player. By "good job" I just mean that the task at hand was winning, and he got it done. That means he must have been doing something right, even if that thing was a bullshit cheese or a greedy metagame or abuse of an OP unit or strategy.
I won't say he's a good player, because objectively speaking, most of the people on the ladder are incredibly shitty. I'm in diamond, and I can say that even though I'm proud to have progressed from bronze to diamond, and I've come a long way, diamond players are still pretty bad at the game in terms of macroing consistently, carrying out a build order effectively, making decent decisions under pressure, etc.
So even if he won on a bullshit immortal sentry all-in, and GSL zergs can't hold that build so how should you be able to, etc. etc. you should still gg. He found a good strategy, and he executed it effectively enough to pull out a win against you. That being the end goal of a competitive game, all your other criticisms are perhaps true, but ultimately insignificant.
On December 10 2012 05:40 Ydriel wrote: Nice read, but I disagree with not chatting in case you won.
I had a few times I didn't gg, but if they'd just chat me gg, I wouldn't take it the wrong way. If anything, I'd feel bad about not gg'ing myself
Actually, I've made a few friends chatting with 'em after a lost game. Of course, bad manners, insults, or just scoffing at their skill doesn't do much. But just discussing it was a close game, or discussing strategy, is a great way to improve your game and accept up your loss.
Hey, when I had close games, I would hardly rage, even more if the other guy would chat me up saying it was indeed pretty close. The negativity that comes with losing a game involves asserting your skill way lower than where it is. A close game means that your skill game-wise wasn't as bad and that a few things would have helped you on your way to victory.
Luckily it sounds like you're not someone who takes losses especially badly. And that being the case, I'm glad some matches worked out for you. That said, know that there are a lot of people that have a lot more trouble dealing with a loss, and a message from the opponent, whether it's an insult to their skill or an insult to their mother or a comment on the weather, can really only do harm. If the message is "I'm so good at this game and you are so bad compared to me" that obviously pisses them off, but on the other hand if the message is something like "oh my god I'm so lucky you didn't scout that proxy, I would have been so dead" that's likely to piss them off, too.
On December 10 2012 02:51 Scholera wrote: This thread's silly. The people with "ladder anxiety" are, in general, NOT competitive people or competitive players but casuals inhabiting the lowest leagues.
Losing is fine.
It's not a thread, it's a blog. Also, as someone has pointed out, ladder anxiety is most definitely not limited to non-competitive people. Ladder anxiety stems from fear of losing, and fear of losing comes from the experience of taking losses really hard. If you're not especially competitive, you might quit the game, but you probably don't quit because of ladder anxiety. It probably is more common in lower leagues, but that's just because people with ladder anxiety obviously don't play as much, and if they don't play as much, they won't be as good at the game. Doesn't mean they're casuals, and doesn't mean they're not competitive.
On December 10 2012 01:26 y0su wrote: Seriously reread this ... If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
Are you actually trying to push someone away from Starcraft 2 because they don't say gg every game? That's what it reads like, and that would count as being a douche.
Being "well-mannered" means nothing if you're a douche. Like the people who demand gg's after games, or start yelling at you because you didn't say gl hf at the start. You're not entitled to anything from your opponent. It's even fine for someone to entirely ignore any attempt at communication - they're just as entitled to not talk to you as you are to try talking to them.
Obviously in Starcraft, as in the rest of life, not being a douche is also courteous policy even though I didn't mention it. And most certainly like with all manners, I think that you should focus on being courteous yourself. If someone else doesn't type gl hf that really shouldn't bother you, and if they don't gg when they lose I still maintain that you shouldn't say anything at all.
That said I don't think he was saying people who don't gg should quit Starcraft. The post he quoted complained about a lot of game elements in SC2 that he thought were making it so very few "good games" were produced. He was saying if he really hates SC2 so much, why does he continue playing? I'd agree that saying someone should quit Starcraft if they don't gg is totally out of line, but I also don't think anyone in this thread has taken that position.
On December 10 2012 01:08 ETisME wrote: I never GG if it's not a good game. and sadly SC2 doesn't produce much good games. It's not that I don't like the game but it doesn't produce good games very often. I didn't notice this until I played around 50 games in Hots, where I had some really FUN game even when I lost.
There are so much less about whether the emp hit or not. less about getting those units fungal'd or not. less about getting the FFs down or not. less about landing that vortex etc
I was having a blast in the beta until today when I random'd zerg against some protoss who used immortal sentry all in. (I tell my race when I random) and right away, the game was so very boring, it's almost like watching him play the game of landing forcefield correctly
oh i went off topic quite a bit. I think a little bit of rage is fine. as long as you aren't bm about the opponent. I rarely rage but sometimes when I lose because I didn't get the emp/fungal/storm off in a 200/200 ball dance and lose, i rage.
I really hate how the game is so decisive on landing that one spell in the 200/200 ball battle
On December 09 2012 23:35 ChristianS wrote: -When you lose a game, always type gg or something equivalent. Always. Because everyone loses games; that's how you get better. But in order to improve, you need to accept that you lost and they won. Fair and square. Don't blame a build order loss. Don't complain about balance. Don't swear at them for their bullshit cheese, or their incredibly greedy opening, or their totally luck-based play.
Because maybe it was a build order loss. And maybe their race is completely and totally imbalanced. And maybe that build really was bullshit cheese, or stupidly greedy, or completely and totally luck-based. But none of that changes the fact that your job as the player is to find a way to win. You failed; he succeeded. And all of those other excuses are because you don't want to accept those facts. And I swear to you from a great deal of personal experience that losing is a hell of a lot less painful if you just accept it. Don't make excuses; just accept it. Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job. He pulled off a win, based on his own merit, and you need to recognize that.
If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
Winning doesn't make the game good, nor losing makes a game crap. GG = Good game.
it's not disrespectful if I don't gg to a game that I don't find it was good.
If for example I kill off all my banelings manually by mistake and let him roll me over, should I really say gg him? Doesn't that seem a bit offensive to both of us?
Or in a more realistic example, if we got to late game TvP and because of his network being a bit better than me, I missed the emp and he just roll'd me in the ball battle, is that a 'good game'?
On December 10 2012 01:08 ETisME wrote: I never GG if it's not a good game. and sadly SC2 doesn't produce much good games. It's not that I don't like the game but it doesn't produce good games very often. I didn't notice this until I played around 50 games in Hots, where I had some really FUN game even when I lost.
There are so much less about whether the emp hit or not. less about getting those units fungal'd or not. less about getting the FFs down or not. less about landing that vortex etc
I was having a blast in the beta until today when I random'd zerg against some protoss who used immortal sentry all in. (I tell my race when I random) and right away, the game was so very boring, it's almost like watching him play the game of landing forcefield correctly
oh i went off topic quite a bit. I think a little bit of rage is fine. as long as you aren't bm about the opponent. I rarely rage but sometimes when I lose because I didn't get the emp/fungal/storm off in a 200/200 ball dance and lose, i rage.
I really hate how the game is so decisive on landing that one spell in the 200/200 ball battle
Seriously reread this
On December 09 2012 23:35 ChristianS wrote: -When you lose a game, always type gg or something equivalent. Always. Because everyone loses games; that's how you get better. But in order to improve, you need to accept that you lost and they won. Fair and square. Don't blame a build order loss. Don't complain about balance. Don't swear at them for their bullshit cheese, or their incredibly greedy opening, or their totally luck-based play.
Because maybe it was a build order loss. And maybe their race is completely and totally imbalanced. And maybe that build really was bullshit cheese, or stupidly greedy, or completely and totally luck-based. But none of that changes the fact that your job as the player is to find a way to win. You failed; he succeeded. And all of those other excuses are because you don't want to accept those facts. And I swear to you from a great deal of personal experience that losing is a hell of a lot less painful if you just accept it. Don't make excuses; just accept it. Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job. He pulled off a win, based on his own merit, and you need to recognize that.
If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
Winning doesn't make the game good, nor losing makes a game crap. GG = Good game.
it's not disrespectful if I don't gg to a game that I don't find it was good.
If for example I kill off all my banelings manually by mistake and let him roll me over, should I really say gg him? Doesn't that seem a bit offensive to both of us?
Or in a more realistic example, if we got to late game TvP and because of his network being a bit better than me, I missed the emp and he just roll'd me in the ball battle, is that a 'good game'?
In my mind, good game does not refer to it being a good game. It refers to your opponent playing a good game. And even if that one element you point to rather sucked, there was still an entire game of decisions that led up to that point that allowed him to capitalize on that for the victory.
If you're someone that takes losses really hard, the first thing you'll look for is excuses why you lost to make it less painful. You'll blame balance, or gimmicky play, or network issues, or hardware issues, or the sun in your eyes. Typing gg is a way of renouncing that and acknowledging that your opponent won because he played well enough to win. It's got nothing to do with whether it was a "good game" in terms of excitement level or high skill level or any other measure of the value of the game. That would just be a weird and irrelevant thing to state at the end of a match.
On December 10 2012 01:08 ETisME wrote: I never GG if it's not a good game. and sadly SC2 doesn't produce much good games. It's not that I don't like the game but it doesn't produce good games very often. I didn't notice this until I played around 50 games in Hots, where I had some really FUN game even when I lost.
There are so much less about whether the emp hit or not. less about getting those units fungal'd or not. less about getting the FFs down or not. less about landing that vortex etc
I was having a blast in the beta until today when I random'd zerg against some protoss who used immortal sentry all in. (I tell my race when I random) and right away, the game was so very boring, it's almost like watching him play the game of landing forcefield correctly
oh i went off topic quite a bit. I think a little bit of rage is fine. as long as you aren't bm about the opponent. I rarely rage but sometimes when I lose because I didn't get the emp/fungal/storm off in a 200/200 ball dance and lose, i rage.
I really hate how the game is so decisive on landing that one spell in the 200/200 ball battle
Seriously reread this
On December 09 2012 23:35 ChristianS wrote: -When you lose a game, always type gg or something equivalent. Always. Because everyone loses games; that's how you get better. But in order to improve, you need to accept that you lost and they won. Fair and square. Don't blame a build order loss. Don't complain about balance. Don't swear at them for their bullshit cheese, or their incredibly greedy opening, or their totally luck-based play.
Because maybe it was a build order loss. And maybe their race is completely and totally imbalanced. And maybe that build really was bullshit cheese, or stupidly greedy, or completely and totally luck-based. But none of that changes the fact that your job as the player is to find a way to win. You failed; he succeeded. And all of those other excuses are because you don't want to accept those facts. And I swear to you from a great deal of personal experience that losing is a hell of a lot less painful if you just accept it. Don't make excuses; just accept it. Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job. He pulled off a win, based on his own merit, and you need to recognize that.
If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
Winning doesn't make the game good, nor losing makes a game crap. GG = Good game.
it's not disrespectful if I don't gg to a game that I don't find it was good.
If for example I kill off all my banelings manually by mistake and let him roll me over, should I really say gg him? Doesn't that seem a bit offensive to both of us?
Or in a more realistic example, if we got to late game TvP and because of his network being a bit better than me, I missed the emp and he just roll'd me in the ball battle, is that a 'good game'?
In my mind, good game does not refer to it being a good game. It refers to your opponent playing a good game. And even if that one element you point to rather sucked, there was still an entire game of decisions that led up to that point that allowed him to capitalize on that for the victory.
If you're someone that takes losses really hard, the first thing you'll look for is excuses why you lost to make it less painful. You'll blame balance, or gimmicky play, or network issues, or hardware issues, or the sun in your eyes. Typing gg is a way of renouncing that and acknowledging that your opponent won because he played well enough to win. It's got nothing to do with whether it was a "good game" in terms of excitement level or high skill level or any other measure of the value of the game. That would just be a weird and irrelevant thing to state at the end of a match.
stating the game was good is not weird and irrelevant. I don't play the game with an extremely competitive mind. While I enjoy the competitive elements such as out thinking, positioning etc the opponent, I enjoy the fun factor the most. And that's why I said winning doesn't make a game good nor losing make a game crap.
Receiving a comment (which I got) like "holy shit that was a nice game, gg mate" is probably the only kind of gg I would ever care/remember about.
On December 10 2012 01:08 ETisME wrote: I never GG if it's not a good game. and sadly SC2 doesn't produce much good games. It's not that I don't like the game but it doesn't produce good games very often. I didn't notice this until I played around 50 games in Hots, where I had some really FUN game even when I lost.
There are so much less about whether the emp hit or not. less about getting those units fungal'd or not. less about getting the FFs down or not. less about landing that vortex etc
I was having a blast in the beta until today when I random'd zerg against some protoss who used immortal sentry all in. (I tell my race when I random) and right away, the game was so very boring, it's almost like watching him play the game of landing forcefield correctly
oh i went off topic quite a bit. I think a little bit of rage is fine. as long as you aren't bm about the opponent. I rarely rage but sometimes when I lose because I didn't get the emp/fungal/storm off in a 200/200 ball dance and lose, i rage.
I really hate how the game is so decisive on landing that one spell in the 200/200 ball battle
Seriously reread this
On December 09 2012 23:35 ChristianS wrote: -When you lose a game, always type gg or something equivalent. Always. Because everyone loses games; that's how you get better. But in order to improve, you need to accept that you lost and they won. Fair and square. Don't blame a build order loss. Don't complain about balance. Don't swear at them for their bullshit cheese, or their incredibly greedy opening, or their totally luck-based play.
Because maybe it was a build order loss. And maybe their race is completely and totally imbalanced. And maybe that build really was bullshit cheese, or stupidly greedy, or completely and totally luck-based. But none of that changes the fact that your job as the player is to find a way to win. You failed; he succeeded. And all of those other excuses are because you don't want to accept those facts. And I swear to you from a great deal of personal experience that losing is a hell of a lot less painful if you just accept it. Don't make excuses; just accept it. Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job. He pulled off a win, based on his own merit, and you need to recognize that.
If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
Winning doesn't make the game good, nor losing makes a game crap. GG = Good game.
it's not disrespectful if I don't gg to a game that I don't find it was good.
If for example I kill off all my banelings manually by mistake and let him roll me over, should I really say gg him? Doesn't that seem a bit offensive to both of us?
Or in a more realistic example, if we got to late game TvP and because of his network being a bit better than me, I missed the emp and he just roll'd me in the ball battle, is that a 'good game'?
In my mind, good game does not refer to it being a good game. It refers to your opponent playing a good game. And even if that one element you point to rather sucked, there was still an entire game of decisions that led up to that point that allowed him to capitalize on that for the victory.
If you're someone that takes losses really hard, the first thing you'll look for is excuses why you lost to make it less painful. You'll blame balance, or gimmicky play, or network issues, or hardware issues, or the sun in your eyes. Typing gg is a way of renouncing that and acknowledging that your opponent won because he played well enough to win. It's got nothing to do with whether it was a "good game" in terms of excitement level or high skill level or any other measure of the value of the game. That would just be a weird and irrelevant thing to state at the end of a match.
stating the game was good is not weird and irrelevant. I don't play the game with an extremely competitive mind. While I enjoy the competitive elements such as out thinking, positioning etc the opponent, I enjoy the fun factor the most. And that's why I said winning doesn't make a game good nor losing make a game crap.
Receiving a comment (which I got) like "holy shit that was a nice game, gg mate" is probably the only kind of gg I would ever care/remember about.
I think your use of GG is more like WP.
Perhaps. The uses are, of course, not mutually exclusive. Suffice to say that words' meanings are ultimately determined by how they're commonly used, and the majority of the Starcraft population does not use gg only to acknowledge that a game was good. Instead it is a recognition of defeat; wp is an additional and more explicit recognition of your opponent's abilities.
On December 10 2012 02:51 Scholera wrote: This thread's silly. The people with "ladder anxiety" are, in general, NOT competitive people or competitive players but casuals inhabiting the lowest leagues.
Losing is fine.
lol I had ladder anxiety in GM, there was nothing really to gain from winning but everything to lose, in my mind. And I do not like losing.
On December 11 2012 00:40 QuanticHawk wrote: it's amazing how butthurt starcraft players get over the dumbest things
winner gg-ing against some idiot who clearly lost and isn't leaving is one of the most satisfying things in the game
Why is it satisfying to potentially upset your opponent a great deal at no real gain to yourself (besides, of course, whatever pleasure you apparently derive from it)? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but isn't such a pleasure entirely vindictive in nature?
If your mental state is seriously affected by post-game chat or lack of a gg you should seriously reconsider participating in competitive games and in fact in anything interactive on the internet. I've found sc players to be far more polite than in pretty much any other online game but this is the internet - if the prevailing culture upsets you can try and change it via TL blogs etc but maybe you should just choose your battles and get a new hobby.
Although I agree that being respectful is better I make an exception for blatant cheesers, I sometimes suggest to proxy gate/rax players that maybe next time they can build in their own base.
On December 11 2012 00:40 QuanticHawk wrote: it's amazing how butthurt starcraft players get over the dumbest things
winner gg-ing against some idiot who clearly lost and isn't leaving is one of the most satisfying things in the game
Why is it satisfying to potentially upset your opponent a great deal at no real gain to yourself (besides, of course, whatever pleasure you apparently derive from it)? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but isn't such a pleasure entirely vindictive in nature?
It's called schadenfreude. At least, that's how interpret it.
On December 11 2012 22:48 romans wrote: If your mental state is seriously affected by post-game chat or lack of a gg you should seriously reconsider participating in competitive games and in fact in anything interactive on the internet. I've found sc players to be far more polite than in pretty much any other online game but this is the internet - if the prevailing culture upsets you can try and change it via TL blogs etc but maybe you should just choose your battles and get a new hobby.
Although I agree that being respectful is better I make an exception for blatant cheesers, I sometimes suggest to proxy gate/rax players that maybe next time they can build in their own base.
I find this pretty unnecessarily condescending. You're seriously saying I should quit Starcraft because I don't think people should be dicks to each other, even on the internet? I'm not so affected by post-game chat as some people, and even if I was I think I might try blocking the other player before quitting the game that I love. If for no other reason that I think it's generally better to try dealing with difficult emotions rather than hiding from them.
I don't totally understand why people always seem to think that someone cheesing gives them a license to break social rules they would otherwise follow. A proxy 2rax is a strategy like any other; why is it okay to be a dick to a proxy 2raxing player, but not someone who goes CC first?
Incidentally, I didn't say I get upset when other people don't gg. I said that if you struggle with ladder rage, you should always gg yourself. I really do think typing "gg" is more for your own good than your opponent's; he probably doesn't care that much one way or another. And if my opponent didn't gg after losing, I won't think twice about it (and definitely won't message him).
On December 11 2012 00:40 QuanticHawk wrote: it's amazing how butthurt starcraft players get over the dumbest things
winner gg-ing against some idiot who clearly lost and isn't leaving is one of the most satisfying things in the game
Why is it satisfying to potentially upset your opponent a great deal at no real gain to yourself (besides, of course, whatever pleasure you apparently derive from it)? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but isn't such a pleasure entirely vindictive in nature?
the thought of some kid—already fuming because I steamrolled him—going ballistic after I say gg before him because he is making me kill every last unit is utterly hilarious
On December 11 2012 22:48 romans wrote: If your mental state is seriously affected by post-game chat or lack of a gg you should seriously reconsider participating in competitive games and in fact in anything interactive on the internet. I've found sc players to be far more polite than in pretty much any other online game but this is the internet - if the prevailing culture upsets you can try and change it via TL blogs etc but maybe you should just choose your battles and get a new hobby.
On December 11 2012 00:40 QuanticHawk wrote: it's amazing how butthurt starcraft players get over the dumbest things
winner gg-ing against some idiot who clearly lost and isn't leaving is one of the most satisfying things in the game
Why is it satisfying to potentially upset your opponent a great deal at no real gain to yourself (besides, of course, whatever pleasure you apparently derive from it)? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but isn't such a pleasure entirely vindictive in nature?
the thought of some kid—already fuming because I steamrolled him—going ballistic after I say gg before him because he is making me kill every last unit is utterly hilarious
So... as someone else mentioned, is there any interpretation by which that pleasure isn't schadenfreude? If that's the pinnacle of pleasure that you take from a game you play even semi-professionally, then that's... sad.
On December 11 2012 22:48 romans wrote: If your mental state is seriously affected by post-game chat or lack of a gg you should seriously reconsider participating in competitive games and in fact in anything interactive on the internet. I've found sc players to be far more polite than in pretty much any other online game but this is the internet - if the prevailing culture upsets you can try and change it via TL blogs etc but maybe you should just choose your battles and get a new hobby.
I also agree with all of this
Thanks for the expert advice, but I'll go ahead and make it my own business whether or not I continue playing Starcraft.
On December 11 2012 00:40 QuanticHawk wrote: it's amazing how butthurt starcraft players get over the dumbest things
winner gg-ing against some idiot who clearly lost and isn't leaving is one of the most satisfying things in the game
Why is it satisfying to potentially upset your opponent a great deal at no real gain to yourself (besides, of course, whatever pleasure you apparently derive from it)? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but isn't such a pleasure entirely vindictive in nature?
the thought of some kid—already fuming because I steamrolled him—going ballistic after I say gg before him because he is making me kill every last unit is utterly hilarious
To reiterate ChristianS statement, that really is purely vindictive. I doubt most people are "already fuming" because they lost and then snap at the mere utterance of the "gg" - rather, the preemptive gg is a clear break from the norms of respect. Sociologically, 'gg' serves as a symbol of players respecting each other, and to claim "gg" preemptively becomes a mark of disrespect, so any anger is only in reaction to your disrespectful attitude towards the loser. People are fine with winning and losing, but the whole point of this blog is that there are polite ways to win and lose. Sure, competitive people are going to bump against each other, and tensions will flare, and yes, people will need thick skins to persist in their playing because of the inevitable run-in with BM, but to justify general douchebaggery with the descriptive claim that "well, there will generally be douchebaggery" is to mistakenly conflate how things are with how things ought to be.
On December 12 2012 04:04 ChristianS wrote: I find this pretty unnecessarily condescending. You're seriously saying I should quit Starcraft because I don't think people should be dicks to each other, even on the internet? I'm not so affected by post-game chat as some people, and even if I was I think I might try blocking the other player before quitting the game that I love. If for no other reason that I think it's generally better to try dealing with difficult emotions rather than hiding from them.
I wasn't aware that you could block the in game chat such as agressive gg and general rudeness that occurs. I'm saying that if you are choosing to take part in online games you are going to get some bm coming your way - and if you find this hugely upsetting (you are obviously affected in some way having written the OP) you should think seriously whether or not it is worth participating. Also you could stop playing against random players on ladder and play the game you love with people you know if you feel so strongly about this.
On December 12 2012 04:04 ChristianS wrote: I don't totally understand why people always seem to think that someone cheesing gives them a license to break social rules they would otherwise follow. A proxy 2rax is a strategy like any other; why is it okay to be a dick to a proxy 2raxing player, but not someone who goes CC first?
IMO being well mannered on ladder is not a social rule but just one of an array of options. With cheesers I assume they will not feel upset that their skill was insufficient because they are likely just trying to grind out some quick wins so I am always curious to see if they will respond, but I can't exactly be nice to them because I'm not Sheth and it doesn't look believable ("Wow, your first six zerglings were in my base so fast, nice try buddy!") Just like offline I don't consider it breaking a social rule to make fun of a person that did something ridiculous and for the record CC first is also ridiculous and can be killed off easily in wood league.
On December 12 2012 04:04 ChristianS wrote: I find this pretty unnecessarily condescending. You're seriously saying I should quit Starcraft because I don't think people should be dicks to each other, even on the internet? I'm not so affected by post-game chat as some people, and even if I was I think I might try blocking the other player before quitting the game that I love. If for no other reason that I think it's generally better to try dealing with difficult emotions rather than hiding from them.
I wasn't aware that you could block the in game chat such as agressive gg and general rudeness that occurs. I'm saying that if you are choosing to take part in online games you are going to get some bm coming your way - and if you find this hugely upsetting (you are obviously affected in some way having written the OP) you should think seriously whether or not it is worth participating. Also you could stop playing against random players on ladder and play the game you love with people you know if you feel so strongly about this.
On December 12 2012 04:04 ChristianS wrote: I don't totally understand why people always seem to think that someone cheesing gives them a license to break social rules they would otherwise follow. A proxy 2rax is a strategy like any other; why is it okay to be a dick to a proxy 2raxing player, but not someone who goes CC first?
IMO being well mannered on ladder is not a social rule but just one of an array of options. With cheesers I assume they will not feel upset that their skill was insufficient because they are likely just trying to grind out some quick wins so I am always curious to see if they will respond, but I can't exactly be nice to them because I'm not Sheth and it doesn't look believable ("Wow, your first six zerglings were in my base so fast, nice try buddy!") Just like offline I don't consider it breaking a social rule to make fun of a person that did something ridiculous and for the record CC first is also ridiculous and can be killed off easily in wood league.
I don't actually know where you're getting the impression that I'm so deeply upset by BM. I'm not really; sometimes it makes me laugh, sometimes I banter back, and sometimes I just ignore it. Certainly if I'm going to be in an online environment I'm aware people aren't always going to say and do exactly what I want them to. If I'm having a bad day and someone's BM is upsetting me, I'll just block them in chat. So really, thanks for the advice, but I don't need to be told that I'm emotionally incapable of handling the internet. I've been going on the internet since I was very small, I think I'll be fine.
I wrote the OP because I often encounter people that are being BM, but don't seem to know it. QuanticHawk seems to know that he's being BM and does it anyway; that's not what I'm addressing. But a lot of people will do things like offensively gg or message the loser after the game to tell them something, not because they're trying to be dicks, but because they don't know that it is dickish behavior. The purpose of the OP was to inform them.
Side note: CC first is a totally legitimate build at all levels of play. Of course it's vulnerable to early attacks; that's why people go 1 rax expo, because it's safer. But CC first is defendable against anything except an early attack planned entirely on metagame. So if you put down the spawning pool because you predicted CC first, you'll win. If you scouted CC first and put down the spawning pool, CC first can easily defend.
CC first vs. 6 pool is also 100% winnable as the Terran. In fact, I'd probably rather be the Terran than the Zerg in that situation.
Fair enough I misunderstood. I don't think it is rude to talk after a game though regardless of the winner especially because they always have the opportunity to block.
Do you put the CC down without making an orbital? I never tried such a greedy strategy but if you defended an early pool with it I would probably GG out.
On December 11 2012 00:40 QuanticHawk wrote: it's amazing how butthurt starcraft players get over the dumbest things
winner gg-ing against some idiot who clearly lost and isn't leaving is one of the most satisfying things in the game
Why is it satisfying to potentially upset your opponent a great deal at no real gain to yourself (besides, of course, whatever pleasure you apparently derive from it)? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but isn't such a pleasure entirely vindictive in nature?
the thought of some kid—already fuming because I steamrolled him—going ballistic after I say gg before him because he is making me kill every last unit is utterly hilarious
Well, personally when I've clearly lost and someone does an "offensive gg" to me before I tap out myself, and I have something else I could do (hang the laundry, go to the toilet, browse TL, etc...), I just leave the game running and do something else for a while.
I don't give a sh*t about what people say to me on ladder, it just doesn't faze me at all. But I do take pleasure in wasting time of people that like to do offensive gg's As in all competitive games, if the victory-condition hasn't been reached yet, it is up to the losing party to decide if and when the match is over.
On December 12 2012 17:58 romans wrote: Fair enough I misunderstood. I don't think it is rude to talk after a game though regardless of the winner especially because they always have the opportunity to block.
Do you put the CC down without making an orbital? I never tried such a greedy strategy but if you defended an early pool with it I would probably GG out.
Yup. Literally skip barracks. Supply depot on 10 food, command center on 15 food on the low-ground.
Defending a 6 pool isn't actually so hard. Basically you go CC first, and send a scout. If you see lings coming, cancel the CC, and try to hide barracks around the map. Run your SCVs from the lings, even using the loadup function on the command center. Eventually you'll finish a barracks somewhere, build some marines from it. Once you have enough marines, bring your SCVs to where the marines are, and a-move into the lings with SCVs in front and marines in back. It's not so hard as you'd think.
Demonstrated here about 3:30 on the Day[9] Daily:
CC first isn't even all that greedy if you build two barracks immediately after the command center. That should give you enough marines to defend most things, and give you a wall-off soon enough to defend yourself against early aggression. I'm not saying it's safe against everything, but it's safe a lot more often than you would think.
On December 11 2012 00:40 QuanticHawk wrote: it's amazing how butthurt starcraft players get over the dumbest things
winner gg-ing against some idiot who clearly lost and isn't leaving is one of the most satisfying things in the game
Why is it satisfying to potentially upset your opponent a great deal at no real gain to yourself (besides, of course, whatever pleasure you apparently derive from it)? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but isn't such a pleasure entirely vindictive in nature?
the thought of some kid—already fuming because I steamrolled him—going ballistic after I say gg before him because he is making me kill every last unit is utterly hilarious
Well, personally when I've clearly lost and someone does an "offensive gg" to me before I tap out myself, and I have something else I could do (hang the laundry, go to the toilet, browse TL, etc...), I just leave the game running and do something else for a while.
I don't give a sh*t about what people say to me on ladder, it just doesn't faze me at all. But I do take pleasure in wasting time of people that like to do offensive gg's As in all competitive games, if the victory-condition hasn't been reached yet, it is up to the losing party to decide if and when the match is over.
idk, reacting to an offensive gg by delaying yourself by playing sure seems like you care a bit!
On December 11 2012 00:40 QuanticHawk wrote: it's amazing how butthurt starcraft players get over the dumbest things
winner gg-ing against some idiot who clearly lost and isn't leaving is one of the most satisfying things in the game
Why is it satisfying to potentially upset your opponent a great deal at no real gain to yourself (besides, of course, whatever pleasure you apparently derive from it)? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but isn't such a pleasure entirely vindictive in nature?
the thought of some kid—already fuming because I steamrolled him—going ballistic after I say gg before him because he is making me kill every last unit is utterly hilarious
Well, personally when I've clearly lost and someone does an "offensive gg" to me before I tap out myself, and I have something else I could do (hang the laundry, go to the toilet, browse TL, etc...), I just leave the game running and do something else for a while.
I don't give a sh*t about what people say to me on ladder, it just doesn't faze me at all. But I do take pleasure in wasting time of people that like to do offensive gg's As in all competitive games, if the victory-condition hasn't been reached yet, it is up to the losing party to decide if and when the match is over.
idk, reacting to an offensive gg by delaying yourself by playing sure seems like you care a bit!
Only enough to take pleasure in delaying his opponent, kind of like you take pleasure in upsetting yours
It's caring enough to take pleasure in inconveniencing them, certainly. Although saying it doesn't faze him could still be perfectly true. If you haven't noticed, any time someone says "I don't give a shit" about something, they must still care at least a little. If they truly didn't care even the slightest bit, they wouldn't spend their time talking about it