Note: this article is the expressed opinion of Amazingxkcd only and does not constitute to be the official opinion of Teamliquid.net, its staff, or any of its constituents.
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Come, have a seat. Sure, you can pour yourself a drink. Let’s have a nice chit chat. I will tell you that I will stop casting TLC games nor will help with any coverage for the unforeseeable future because of what’s about to be announced by the TLC admins. I was and still am fervently against it for a variety of reasons, but let’s not digress from the point of this discussion.
As of now and for the rest of this discussion, I have no affiliation with Teamliquid. I have no affiliation with any brood war staffers, nor any CS:GO staffers, nor any staffers at all. I have no affiliation with any prominent community members.
In fact. I’m a nobody on teamliquid.net. I’m just a brood war fan. But I’m making this a blog instead of a BW forum post because I don’t want to burn all the bridges on TL.net yet nor do i just want the BW people to read this. This can apply to many esports that have a small scene and perhaps non-bw fans can learn something new. Who knows?
Let’s talk
Starcraft is one of the most difficult games ever made, and the fact that people in this day and age still play starcraft over other games is awesome. Starcraft is beautiful to play and watch. What other games allows for people to clearly express the level of skill that they display to the degree of clarity that starcraft allows for, yet at the same time is very accessible to the new beginners? There is nothing like what starcraft offers and that's a god damn beauty to behold. And let's not forget that starcraft has been in a renaissance both in South Korea with the rise of SOSPA, not to mention a fucking new team league on the horizons. And here in the west, We have the TLC already done with 4 weeks and the TLS coming this winter. This is a new glory age of starcraft.
However, we need to be directly told of something that has been plaguing us in the recent weeks, something that people don’t realizing they’re doing because they are so fixated on something else that they fail to understand what is it that they’re doing to starcraft, to the small foreign community, and to the fans of starcraft.
You are killing starcraft
The people who moved on to play starcraft 2 or mobas aren't killing starcraft. The people that dodge matches on iccup aren't killing starcraft. Iccup admins are most definitely not killing starcraft. And whoever is public enemy #1 for being the best player in the TLCs is not killing starcraft.
You are killing starcraft
It's not the fact that you are physically hacking the game to pieces with axes and swords, nor are you sitting the game inside a gas chamber and letting it burn to death, It is your EGO, your ATTITUDE, and your ETIQUETTE that is killing starcraft.
Let's break this down. The release of the Teamliquid Legacy Cup series as an effort to re-invigorate the foreign scene to practice for the TLS which will occur this winter. With $2,000 being invested into weekly cups, this is the perfect time for any aspiring starcraft player to start to hunker down, to start practicing, and to start getting really gosu at starcraft so that come the TLS, he is more than ready to win it.
Yet with all of the incentives in place to motivate people to get back into the game and to get better, You have the audacity to go onto the forums and complain about it because the rules allow for a particular player to play and that particular player is “too good”. You even go as far as to bash other players, bash viewers who chime in on the matter, bash TLC TOs who have been working fucking hard to make this all happen, and you bash starcraft itself for no good reason other than to appropriate their failures in the TLCs away from themselves. Great job there, I applaud your efforts to play the "Let's get banned" game. To make matters even worse, some of you players have been disruptive on the forums then proceed to get featured on the TLC streams, your games shown to all that partake in viewing. And since you are being morons, we see games that happen like this
This particular zerg player boasted of defeating ACTUAL KESPA PROS, yet threw the finals on purpose just to get back at the TLC rules.
I don’t even know where to start with this. I originally typed up a rant that would 100% get me banned due to all the obscenities at the lot of you all. But since this is teamliquid, a place for civilized discussions, I’ll do my best to not give banlings a legitimate reason to ban me.
First and foremost, the amount of hypocrites in the foreign community is too high. Everyone that has complained about the format, the rules, etc has been still showing up to every damn TLC to play. That can’t be real, right? If you had any strong backings or at least affirmed your complaints, you wouldn’t play. I guess the prize pool must be enticing enough for the people to show up. Money must be all that you care about, not actually getting better at the game since you’re still playing in the weekly cups, and still complaining on the forums. To me, you would beat Scan or any other top player if you spent your time practicing, understanding the game, getting better at it instead of bashing everything on the forums because your head is stuck too far up your arse to change your ego. Everyone that has played so far in the TLC is beatable. the degree of effort it takes to beat them is what makes starcraft such a good game; With the TLC, you have to actually practice to win that $50 as the TLCs were intended to do so. You of all people have failed to understand that the TLCs are a way to incentivize players to practice and get better; the TLCs are not meant to be an easy cash player for complacent foreign players that are used to the status quo.
Guess what? We broke the status quo, time to get used to it. And we will break it again for the TLS when newcomers come to take your spots.
The 2nd matter that disgusts me is the attitude that people have been having, the amount of BM and bashing that has been going on. We have been attracting new people back to Brood War, trying to re-grow the small paltry scene that we have had. If any new person went to the TL BW forums to check out the info, the brackets, or what not, what do they see? They see locked threads full of complaints, bashing, BM, cursing, thread derailing, and more. Is this what you want to show to the world who we are? And then you go ahead and complain that Brood War is dying.
Geez, I wonder why?
You’re killing starcraft yourself, and you fail to see it. It’s bitter to see that you could be using all of your energy to actively promote and display the potential top level foreigner play ever, but you are selfish and throw all that away to nurture your ego instead. This was clearly seen in the Eonzerg vs Scan game. Instead of giving your best, Eonzerg, you decide to throw 3 games in a row during a streamed finals in front of 400+ people just so you can then get giddy right on the teamliquid forums and post sob stories about how Scan is destroying brood war and your chance at the prize pool. Absolutely disgusting, and this applies to the rest of you as well. New viewers are going to be confused at what happened and then get discouraged from learning more about the game because they only see the bullshit you guys are trying to pull off.
It is a mockery of the TLC admins, the TLC casters, other players who are trying their best, and most importantly the fans that want to watch the best BW you have to offer that you guys go out and throw games, or whatever. Why should I, Sayle, Bisudagger, and the rest of the TLC crew try our best to cast your games the best we can to help show cast your talents and your skills if you don’t give a damn, and then proceed to bash us later on? Why should the TLC admins keep doing what they have been to try to throw on the best weekly cup they can if you’re going to disrespect them later on the forums, and discredit all the hard work they have done just so you can sidestep the real issues at hand? What about the fans that have been let down because they wanted to see how much you improved over time, and you then go ahead and throw games on the stream, in the damn finals?!?! What about the other players who might be aspiring to you to get better themselves and then lose faith because they see your true side, a snobbish, greedy moron that only cares about the prize money and not about the game itself.
Sickening.
So, where do we go from here? That is not my decision to make, that is all on you. Are you going to continue to destroy starcraft from the inside out or will you make a change and perhaps try to save starcraft? You have the power.
As a first little disclaimer, I have not been involved in any decisions taken one way or the other regarding who can play in TLC and who can not, and despite my name this is also not an official TL response, it's just my personal opinion.
While I think that some of the responses from TLC players towards TL staff (who have been trying their hardest to do a good job hosting a good tournament) have been really stupid, sometimes offensive, and while I have been disappointed watching some matches where it seemed like players weren't even trying their best (to be fair, desperate cheeses due to feeling inferior can often look like not trying after they fail), I can't help but feel that you are speaking from a position of ignorance here.
The notion that players can just 'practice harder' and beat scan, that is ridiculous. I am a former Norwegian champion, I was captain of Team Europe (a team Europe which beat team Asia - technically, I captained Europe to a World Championship victory), and while I'm sure this is up for debate, I personally think that at my peak, I was something like ~top 5 outside South Korea, and this was during a time and age with a far more active foreign scene. Yet, even if I, who clearly has a lot of talent for the game and a high potential, spent the next 6 months playing 8 hours every day (which is not even remotely close to viable due to real life obligations, and I think it is like this for pretty much every still playing player), I still think Scan would be a massive favorite against me. And hey, the fact is, I actually have a winning record against him! We played a bunch in 2008 or whatever, before he became a monster, but watching him now, there's a fluidity and perfection to his game that I don't think I could match no matter how hard I tried.
Brood War is a game of an almost infinitely high skill ceiling, and due to how immersed South Korean culture has been in the game, and considering how much you improve from being able to fluently communicate strategies and ideas with people who are touching the peak of what is humanly possible to execute, it is not viable. I don't know when you started following Starcraft, but I've been in the scene since 1998, and I've been playing against other top players since 1999. One thing has consistently been true, especially after ~2001 or so when Korea started being dominant: Players who went to Korea to practice ended up realizing their potential in a wholly different way from people who stayed at home. The longer time that passed since 2001, the more separate Korea and Non-Korea became, and the more people would benefit from having access to an actual korean training regiment.
Idra, Ret, Nony, Draco, all these players went to Korea and achieved a level of skill nobody who did not go ended up achieving. I guess you can argue an exception for Mondragon but with his talent for the game it isn't really a fair comparison. While in the past, we always wanted to encourage nonkorean players to go there, to become the best they could become, and thus would always allow Nonkorean players to participate in tournaments even though their eventual victory might have seemed like a foregone conclusion. Scan has been in a funky position, where he is korean, has benefited from the korean training regiment, but where he has also to some degree been a very valuable community member who communicates in English, so it's tough to compare.
Frankly, and while I have had no part in staff decisions, and where I didn't even know what they were going to end up doing prior to reading your post which makes it pretty clear that Scan won't (fully?) be able to compete in the following TLC tournaments, I have to say that I think it looks like they made the best choice, both at first, and now. Firstly, his level of dominance is a factor - it's the embodiment of the benefit you get from the Korean training regiment and understanding of Korean language and immersion in Korean Brood War culture. Secondly, TL staff didn't, and could not have been expected to, understand how dominant he was prior to the tournament. Now TL staff does, and apparently has changed their mind. I can't but voice my support, and while I was personally registering for these tournaments with the hopes of drawing scan so I could bring some brilliant cheese to the table, I will now be registering for the future tournaments with one less impossible obstacle to pass, and I will be watching these tournaments without being certain of the eventual winner. Good job everyone involved, it's hard to go back on a decision, especially when the people who are forcing you to go back on it are insulting you, but it's clearly the right thing to do.
On August 17 2015 19:56 Liquid`Drone wrote: As a first little disclaimer, I have not been involved in any decisions taken one way or the other regarding who can play in TLC and who can not, and despite my name this is also not an official TL response, it's just my personal opinion.
While I think that some of the responses from TLC players towards TL staff (who have been trying their hardest to have been really stupid, sometimes offensive, and while I have been disappointed watching some matches where it seemed like players weren't even trying their best (to be fair, desperate cheeses due to feeling inferior can often look like not trying after they fail), I can't help but feel that you are speaking from a position of ignorance here.
The notion that players can just 'practice harder' and beat scan, that is ridiculous. I am a former Norwegian champion, I was captain of Team Europe (a team Europe which beat team Asia - technically, I captained Europe to a World Championship victory), and while I'm sure this is up for debate, I personally think that at my peak, I was something like ~top 5 outside South Korea, and this was during a time and age with a far more active foreign scene. Yet, even if I, who clearly has a lot of talent for the game and a high potential, spent the next 6 months playing 8 hours every day (which is not even remotely close to viable due to real life obligations, and I think it is like this for pretty much every still playing player), I still think Scan would be a massive favorite against me. And hey, the fact is, I actually have a winning record against him! We played a bunch in 2008 or whatever, before he became a monster, but watching him now, there's a fluidity and perfection to his game that I don't think I could match no matter how hard I tried.
Brood War is a game of an almost infinitely high skill ceiling, and due to how immersed South Korean culture has been in the game, and considering how much you improve from being able to fluently communicate strategies and ideas with people who are touching the peak of what is humanly possible to execute, it is not viable. I don't know when you started following Starcraft, but I've been in the scene since 1998, and I've been playing against other top players since 1999. One thing has consistently been true, especially after ~2001 or so when Korea started being dominant: Players who went to Korea to practice ended up realizing their potential in a wholly different way from people who stayed at home. The longer time that passed since 2001, the more separate Korea and Non-Korea became, and the more people would benefit from having access to an actual korean training regiment.
Idra, Ret, Nony, Draco, all these players went to Korea and achieved a level of skill nobody who did not go ended up achieving. I guess you can argue an exception for Mondragon but with his talent for the game it isn't really a fair comparison. While in the past, we always wanted to encourage nonkorean players to go there, to become the best they could become, and thus would always allow Nonkorean players to participate in tournaments even though their eventual victory might have seemed like a foregone conclusion. Scan has been in a funky position, where he is korean, has benefited from the korean training regiment, but where he has also to some degree been a very valuable community member who communicates in English, so it's tough to compare.
Frankly, and while I have had no part in staff decisions, and where I didn't even know what they were going to end up doing prior to reading your post which makes it pretty clear that Scan won't (fully?) be able to compete in the following TLC tournaments, I have to say that I think it looks like they made the best choice, both at first, and now. Firstly, his level of dominance is a factor - it's the embodiment of the benefit you get from the Korean training regiment and understanding of Korean language and immersion in Korean Brood War culture. Secondly, TL staff didn't, and could not have been expected to, understand how dominant he was prior to the tournament. Now TL staff does, and apparently has changed their mind. I can't but voice my support, and while I was personally registering for these tournaments with the hopes of drawing scan so I could bring some brilliant cheese to the table, I will now be registering for the future tournaments with one less impossible obstacle to pass, and I will be watching these tournaments without being certain of the eventual winner. Good job everyone involved, it's hard to go back on a decision, especially when the people who are forcing you to go back on it are insulting you, but it's clearly the right thing to do.
you realize that between the scan you knew from 2008 and scan nowadays, scan was playing from the States right? I really am interested what allowed him to get better than Pro7ect or any other player. Both played from non-Korea, both are [insert your Korea Korea here]. The way Scan improved is fascinating. I really dislike how people try to blame him speaking Korean for that, like taking away the effort he spent there.
However, I really don't care if he isn't part of the TLC anymore or not - tons of ZvZ finals here we come. No better, no worse, but maybe the crying stops.
I'm not too active anymore at all, but for what it's worth, I think there's a really healthy dose of the pot calling the kettle black going on in your post, amazingxkcd.
You repeatedly call out the community of competitors for their abusive posting, but you do so in the most abusive manner possible. Can you not see that you're doing exactly what you're accusing them of?
"because of what’s about to be announced by the TLC admins. I was and still am fervently against it for a variety of reasons, but let’s not digress from the point of this discussion."
looks like the "ban/handicap Scan" approach. I would prefer to see the "invite korean/BBARAS players into TLC" approach which I feel would be healthier for the entire BW scene in general ( provides practice/exchange opportunities plus gives Scan competition without needing outright ban/handicaps).
Even Chinese BW tourney organizers know not to be dumb to invite only 1 outstanding Korean player (but invite several) so that you can't have just have that 1 player dominate the entire competition
but I understand the final move since they want to retain the "foreigner" tourney status.
you realize that between the scan you knew from 2008 and scan nowadays, scan was playing from the States right? I really am interested what allowed him to get better than Pro7ect or any other player. Both played from non-Korea, both are [insert your Korea Korea here]. The way Scan improved is fascinating. I really dislike how people try to blame him speaking Korean for that, like taking away the effort he spent there.
However, I really don't care if he isn't part of the TLC anymore or not - tons of ZvZ finals here we come. No better, no worse, but maybe the crying stops.
I'd say mostly passion, hard work and talent. In addition Scan seems to be a perfectionist. He wants his timings to be as crisp as possible and always looks for weaknesses in his play.
Being able to speak Korean and, thus, being able to discuss strategies with other Koreans and having access to additional sources (Light's strategy guides come to my mind) should not be underestimated, especially at that level. Not lagging on Fish is also huge.
Btw, playing from the US is not a big issue though. I think you can play on low lat on Fish when you live in California. Could have been a different story if he lived in Bulgaria or Congo.
I don't think there's a reinvigorating effect of the Brood War scene outside of Korea by hosting the TLC. In the end the tournament is only at most what the participants make of the tourney. What will happen when the TLC does inevitably come and go? Only people's enjoyment of playing the game will continue the activity of Brood War. It seems like the purpose of a foreigner only tournament is to exclude Koreans who in the highest tier of players are better than the foreigners. You could achieve the same effect by making a rule that only players C rank (Fish ranking) or below may participate. I don't know a single foreigner who's exceeded C rank on the Korean Fish server. There's a lot of drama that StarCraft is getting destroyed but that's pretentious video gamer banter. What's getting destroyed and how is that going to affect how someone views StarCraft's gameplay? There are some outspoken individuals and only those disgruntled enough are the ones who post online to have their voice be heard. While it seems like their voices are loud enough to make it seem like they represent a good portion of the community they're probably something like a meager 1 percent or even far below. A few or some of those people aren't even good mannered and have a long pattern of obnoxiousness and cognitive bias(me). I'm not saying whether or not Scan should be allowed in the tournament I'm just sayin'. Yah, they do lack a lot of professionalism
games have a life cycle. they have an infancy, a youth, a prime adulthood, an old age and then die just like living things. the aging process is killing Starcraft, not a bunch of guys bickering on this forum. At least they still have enough passion for the game to get angry about circumstances surrounding the game.
The sign of death is no activity at all. Stillness is the antithesis of life.
On August 17 2015 22:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote: video games have a life cycle..
fixed. humanity has not stopped playing chess/weiqi despite their age, and them aging and the introduction of newer games has not subject them to any "killing" process or becoming irrelevant. only internet kids/teens would go about on the "ded gaem" meme.
Judging from how BW is still played relatively frequently in PC Bang I could easily see BW becoming a sort of a "traditional"(akin to yutnori/takji) or retro game in Korea for quite some time.
Personally, I'm just glad something like this is happening and I get to watch Sayle and good old BW every week. Sure koreans are still rigged but I second the notion of getting more than one contender or it just seems pretty impossible for the foreigners. Pro7ect, Bakuryu come back pls!
My personal frustration came from they way people worded things towards staff. But hey, I'm someone who responds well to polite and constructive feedback instead of accusatory and rude. The latter just leaves a bad taste in my mouth where as the former gets me to work with you on any problem. I expect positive attitudes in my personal and business life.
On August 17 2015 22:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote: video games have a life cycle..
fixed. humanity has not stopped playing chess/weiqi despite their age, and them aging and the introduction of newer games has not subject them to any "killing" process or becoming irrelevant. only internet kids/teens would go about on the "ded gaem" meme.
Judging from how BW is still played relatively frequently in PC Bang I could easily see BW becoming a sort of a "traditional"(akin to yutnori/takji) or retro game in Korea for quite some time.
anyway digress.
keep context in mind. the blog is about a PC video game on a site catering to PC video games...if u want me to be much more verbose i would say "Desktop PC videos games with mouse/keyboard input"
a game like baseball or basketball or european football can live forever. however, any desktop PC game will eventually experience a large decrease in popularity as the keyboard/mouse interface is made obsolete by improved interfaces created in the future.
The decline in desktop PC video games with mouse/keyboard input will look something similar to the decline of the coin-op arcade in North America... it won't disappear over night... and there aer still people who play Donkey Kong and Pacman every day... when they die of old age.. they won't be replaced though.
Starcraft's keyboard/mouse interface doomed it to a finite life cycle long before a bunch of guys started squabbling about a tournament.
you realize that between the scan you knew from 2008 and scan nowadays, scan was playing from the States right? I really am interested what allowed him to get better than Pro7ect or any other player. Both played from non-Korea, both are [insert your Korea Korea here]. The way Scan improved is fascinating. I really dislike how people try to blame him speaking Korean for that, like taking away the effort he spent there.
However, I really don't care if he isn't part of the TLC anymore or not - tons of ZvZ finals here we come. No better, no worse, but maybe the crying stops.
I'd say mostly passion, hard work and talent. In addition Scan seems to be a perfectionist. He wants his timings to be as crisp as possible and always looks for weaknesses in his play.
Being able to speak Korean and, thus, being able to discuss strategies with other Koreans and having access to additional sources (Light's strategy guides come to my mind) should not be underestimated, especially at that level. Not lagging on Fish is also huge.
Btw, playing from the US is not a big issue though. I think you can play on low lat on Fish when you live in California. Could have been a different story if he lived in Bulgaria or Congo.
That just underlines what annoys me so much in this conversation. Scan clearly did improve on his own, but people still phrase their posts as if he was some idiot. Basically a lot of jealousy talking, the kid did invest and got something back. Big deal. Others can't do that, no problem. But it's still an achievement. Scan really didn't do anything wrong. Also, in my eyes he is enough to be considered a borderline foreigner - just like Pro7ect, Michael or god knows who else. He is part of our scene for better or worse.
However, he broke out of the foreign/amateur leagues, he simply can't be counted "unprofessional" anymore. The Chinese records speak for themselves. I'm fine with players argueing like that and with any decision to exclude Scan or include other border-line pros like the Chinese or up-and-coming SOSPA stars. Just say so. If you can't, almost all of XKCD's posts about how we portray ourselves to outsiders is entirely correct.
you are implying that popularity of games equates to their interfaces, that games die due to obsolete interfaces/technology
you are forgetting that any game fundamentally exists as concepts and can be translated into different or newer interface/platforms if given enough effort.
all the oldies like tetris/invaders/donkey kong have been remade for all sorts of different consoles other than the old arcade box. yes they are no longer popular but thanks to such efforts they are far from being completely dead.
few can predict the future but who is to say people won't play Starcraft on their VR machines hundreds years later?
the problem with a new interface is the community disagreements about how the new interface should be mapped to the original and what constitutes cheating... the only way to get people to agree is to stick with the original interface...
take a look at the disagreements already arising in the community over far less fundamental things than how an individual user interacts with the game... for example the disagreements being highlighted in this very blog... if people can't agree on stuff like this... forget about getting universal agreement mapping a new interface to the game
and SC has a very complex interface. even Pacman does not feel the same without a physical joystick man.
when the mouse and keyboard disappears PC games including SC will go with it.. which is why Billionaire Gabe is making Steam controllers... it is Valve/Steams thin end of the wedge.
hmmm,hey Mr Amazingxcd i have news for you.i have contributed more for bw than you(with games,with cast,helping players,teaching them,sending replays,sharing replays,playing in many non money tournaments show matches and leagues.but actually i also sponsored by my self my team to play in teamleagues,its been me the the only one that always pay for iFU to be in the money teamleagues,oh wait also i sponsored some defiler tours,some minitours,hell i even donate for streamers... . now cuz your bw lvl is terrible that you arent abble to see a shit from what u looking in the games i gonna help you,in my series vs Scan the first game was 12h vs 9p,if you didnt know 9p is the hard counter for 12h from here everything ok right ? now if the 9p player is skiping speed and goes for lair is not hard counter but is actually game over,at the lvl we are it is,i dont know in D ranks maybe u can keep playing.
2 game:This game was a zvt i was doing 2h muta,as you see 2h muta is a build where u need to contain the terran player killing his first army very fast and keep the pressure in the game.Well it happens that the latency was so bad that my micro muta was totally off,everytime i tryed to attack the game made a lag spike and the mutalisk bug and didnt attack.They were moving like valkiries.now if u dont understand this go play 1v1 vs computers and make some valkiries and try to control it,im saying this cuz you are big ignorant in the game that is spoking himself without any knowledge.
in the third game i made a move that i tend to do very often in my stream,sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt,with the bad latency i was having in the game there was not pleasure for me to play more than necesary vs scan,i saw one opportunity i took it,it failed GG.
if i remember well Bisudagger was hosting some kind of clanwar of 3 players vs 3 players all kill style it was Cryoc Dsaqwe and me, at the end cryoc all killed all the oponents,and me and Dsaqwe didnt even ask to get that prize..
Now i dont understand how you are not still banned from this forum.i find it pathetic you insulting others players,Plz come to Trutacz Lan i will like to fix the problems with you in real ok? no forums insults is for pathetic people...
pd:dont come with you are doing alot with snipealot streams.you cant actually do a sh*t,it is alexandous the one that does everything and u need wait for him,thats why snipealots streams are now only showing Nada -_-
On August 17 2015 19:56 Liquid`Drone wrote: As a first little disclaimer, I have not been involved in any decisions taken one way or the other regarding who can play in TLC and who can not, and despite my name this is also not an official TL response, it's just my personal opinion.
While I think that some of the responses from TLC players towards TL staff (who have been trying their hardest to have been really stupid, sometimes offensive, and while I have been disappointed watching some matches where it seemed like players weren't even trying their best (to be fair, desperate cheeses due to feeling inferior can often look like not trying after they fail), I can't help but feel that you are speaking from a position of ignorance here.
The notion that players can just 'practice harder' and beat scan, that is ridiculous. I am a former Norwegian champion, I was captain of Team Europe (a team Europe which beat team Asia - technically, I captained Europe to a World Championship victory), and while I'm sure this is up for debate, I personally think that at my peak, I was something like ~top 5 outside South Korea, and this was during a time and age with a far more active foreign scene. Yet, even if I, who clearly has a lot of talent for the game and a high potential, spent the next 6 months playing 8 hours every day (which is not even remotely close to viable due to real life obligations, and I think it is like this for pretty much every still playing player), I still think Scan would be a massive favorite against me. And hey, the fact is, I actually have a winning record against him! We played a bunch in 2008 or whatever, before he became a monster, but watching him now, there's a fluidity and perfection to his game that I don't think I could match no matter how hard I tried.
Brood War is a game of an almost infinitely high skill ceiling, and due to how immersed South Korean culture has been in the game, and considering how much you improve from being able to fluently communicate strategies and ideas with people who are touching the peak of what is humanly possible to execute, it is not viable. I don't know when you started following Starcraft, but I've been in the scene since 1998, and I've been playing against other top players since 1999. One thing has consistently been true, especially after ~2001 or so when Korea started being dominant: Players who went to Korea to practice ended up realizing their potential in a wholly different way from people who stayed at home. The longer time that passed since 2001, the more separate Korea and Non-Korea became, and the more people would benefit from having access to an actual korean training regiment.
Idra, Ret, Nony, Draco, all these players went to Korea and achieved a level of skill nobody who did not go ended up achieving. I guess you can argue an exception for Mondragon but with his talent for the game it isn't really a fair comparison. While in the past, we always wanted to encourage nonkorean players to go there, to become the best they could become, and thus would always allow Nonkorean players to participate in tournaments even though their eventual victory might have seemed like a foregone conclusion. Scan has been in a funky position, where he is korean, has benefited from the korean training regiment, but where he has also to some degree been a very valuable community member who communicates in English, so it's tough to compare.
Frankly, and while I have had no part in staff decisions, and where I didn't even know what they were going to end up doing prior to reading your post which makes it pretty clear that Scan won't (fully?) be able to compete in the following TLC tournaments, I have to say that I think it looks like they made the best choice, both at first, and now. Firstly, his level of dominance is a factor - it's the embodiment of the benefit you get from the Korean training regiment and understanding of Korean language and immersion in Korean Brood War culture. Secondly, TL staff didn't, and could not have been expected to, understand how dominant he was prior to the tournament. Now TL staff does, and apparently has changed their mind. I can't but voice my support, and while I was personally registering for these tournaments with the hopes of drawing scan so I could bring some brilliant cheese to the table, I will now be registering for the future tournaments with one less impossible obstacle to pass, and I will be watching these tournaments without being certain of the eventual winner. Good job everyone involved, it's hard to go back on a decision, especially when the people who are forcing you to go back on it are insulting you, but it's clearly the right thing to do.
you realize that between the scan you knew from 2008 and scan nowadays, scan was playing from the States right? I really am interested what allowed him to get better than Pro7ect or any other player. Both played from non-Korea, both are [insert your Korea Korea here]. The way Scan improved is fascinating. I really dislike how people try to blame him speaking Korean for that, like taking away the effort he spent there.
However, I really don't care if he isn't part of the TLC anymore or not - tons of ZvZ finals here we come. No better, no worse, but maybe the crying stops.
I actually didn't realize that, I thought there was a period of time where he lived in korea between 2008 and 2015. Honestly, if that's not the case, then I think my argument is slightly weaker/ it has to be slightly altered to focus on 'professional environment available to him' or something.
On August 18 2015 01:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: hmmm,hey Mr Amazingxcd i have news for you.i have contributed more for bw than you(with games,with cast,helping players,teaching them,sending replays,sharing replays,playing in many non money tournaments show matches and leagues.but actually i also sponsored by my self my team to play in teamleagues,its been me the the only one that always pay for iFU to be in the money teamleagues,oh wait also i sponsored some defiler tours,some minitours,hell i even donate for streamers... . now cuz your bw lvl is terrible that you arent abble to see a shit from what u looking in the games i gonna help you,in my series vs Scan the first game was 12h vs 9p,if you didnt know 9p is the hard counter for 12h from here everything ok right ? now if the 9p player is skiping speed and goes for lair is not hard counter but is actually game over,at the lvl we are it is,i dont know in D ranks maybe u can keep playing.
2 game:This game was a zvt i was doing 2h muta,as you see 2h muta is a build where u need to contain the terran player killing his first army very fast and keep the pressure in the game.Well it happens that the latency was so bad that my micro muta was totally off,everytime i tryed to attack the game made a lag spike and the mutalisk bug and didnt attack.They were moving like valkiries.now if u dont understand this go play 1v1 vs computers and make some valkiries and try to control it,im saying this cuz you are big ignorant in the game that is spoking himself without any knowledge.
in the third game i made a move that i tend to do very often in my stream,sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt,with the bad latency i was having in the game there was not pleasure for me to play more than necesary vs scan,i saw one opportunity i took it,it failed GG.
if i remember well Bisudagger was hosting some kind of clanwar of 3 players vs 3 players all kill style it was Cryoc Dsaqwe and me, at the end cryoc all killed all the oponents,and me and Dsaqwe didnt even ask to get that prize..
Now i dont understand how you are not still banned from this forum.i find it pathetic you insulting others players,Plz come to Trutacz Lan i will like to fix the problems with you in real ok? no forums insults is for pathetic people...
pd:dont come with you are doing alot with snipealot streams.you cant actually do a sh*t,it is alexandous the one that does everything and u need wait for him,thats why snipealots streams are now only showing Nada -_-
That was not me. I have only hosted official 1v1 iccup events.
agree with XKCD about the issue that a good amount of top players displayed a horrible attitude in casted games and forums. These players fail to understand, that a tournament is run by people, people who get satisfaction from making an awesome tournament happen.
If you treat these people bad, they won't be inclinded to organized such things, it's a simple truth. Im fine with people arguing about the scan question is a constructive, decent way. But the amount of TO bashing, random user bashing and "whats your maxrank you can't even sustain D on ICC thus you have no right to voice your opinion here" is just plain horrible and disgusting. Throwing casted games just to prove a point is the most silly thing to do in my opinion.
you realize that between the scan you knew from 2008 and scan nowadays, scan was playing from the States right? I really am interested what allowed him to get better than Pro7ect or any other player. Both played from non-Korea, both are [insert your Korea Korea here]. The way Scan improved is fascinating. I really dislike how people try to blame him speaking Korean for that, like taking away the effort he spent there.
However, I really don't care if he isn't part of the TLC anymore or not - tons of ZvZ finals here we come. No better, no worse, but maybe the crying stops.
I'd say mostly passion, hard work and talent. In addition Scan seems to be a perfectionist. He wants his timings to be as crisp as possible and always looks for weaknesses in his play.
Being able to speak Korean and, thus, being able to discuss strategies with other Koreans and having access to additional sources (Light's strategy guides come to my mind) should not be underestimated, especially at that level. Not lagging on Fish is also huge.
Btw, playing from the US is not a big issue though. I think you can play on low lat on Fish when you live in California. Could have been a different story if he lived in Bulgaria or Congo.
That just underlines what annoys me so much in this conversation. Scan clearly did improve on his own, but people still phrase their posts as if he was some idiot. Basically a lot of jealousy talking, the kid did invest and got something back. Big deal. Others can't do that, no problem. But it's still an achievement. Scan really didn't do anything wrong. Also, in my eyes he is enough to be considered a borderline foreigner - just like Pro7ect, Michael or god knows who else. He is part of our scene for better or worse.
However, he broke out of the foreign/amateur leagues, he simply can't be counted "unprofessional" anymore. The Chinese records speak for themselves. I'm fine with players argueing like that and with any decision to exclude Scan or include other border-line pros like the Chinese or up-and-coming SOSPA stars. Just say so. If you can't, almost all of XKCD's posts about how we portray ourselves to outsiders is entirely correct.
i dunno about michael but pro7ect u could say he was a russian in a korean Body,back then wcg 2005 he was already involved in russian lans etc,btw there is a reason why he is not around anymore ,dunno if you know why,i dont know Scan life but i can tell talking with pro7ect and scan is very different,Scan is from different culture where he only shows his real face when he is angry,the only in common that has Scan and pro7ect is some incident.but dont gonna keep with this talk,is not the case.
On August 18 2015 01:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: hmmm,hey Mr Amazingxcd i have news for you.i have contributed more for bw than you(with games,with cast,helping players,teaching them,sending replays,sharing replays,playing in many non money tournaments show matches and leagues.but actually i also sponsored by my self my team to play in teamleagues,its been me the the only one that always pay for iFU to be in the money teamleagues,oh wait also i sponsored some defiler tours,some minitours,hell i even donate for streamers... . now cuz your bw lvl is terrible that you arent abble to see a shit from what u looking in the games i gonna help you,in my series vs Scan the first game was 12h vs 9p,if you didnt know 9p is the hard counter for 12h from here everything ok right ? now if the 9p player is skiping speed and goes for lair is not hard counter but is actually game over,at the lvl we are it is,i dont know in D ranks maybe u can keep playing.
2 game:This game was a zvt i was doing 2h muta,as you see 2h muta is a build where u need to contain the terran player killing his first army very fast and keep the pressure in the game.Well it happens that the latency was so bad that my micro muta was totally off,everytime i tryed to attack the game made a lag spike and the mutalisk bug and didnt attack.They were moving like valkiries.now if u dont understand this go play 1v1 vs computers and make some valkiries and try to control it,im saying this cuz you are big ignorant in the game that is spoking himself without any knowledge.
in the third game i made a move that i tend to do very often in my stream,sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt,with the bad latency i was having in the game there was not pleasure for me to play more than necesary vs scan,i saw one opportunity i took it,it failed GG.
if i remember well Bisudagger was hosting some kind of clanwar of 3 players vs 3 players all kill style it was Cryoc Dsaqwe and me, at the end cryoc all killed all the oponents,and me and Dsaqwe didnt even ask to get that prize..
Now i dont understand how you are not still banned from this forum.i find it pathetic you insulting others players,Plz come to Trutacz Lan i will like to fix the problems with you in real ok? no forums insults is for pathetic people...
pd:dont come with you are doing alot with snipealot streams.you cant actually do a sh*t,it is alexandous the one that does everything and u need wait for him,thats why snipealots streams are now only showing Nada -_-
That was not me. I have only hosted official 1v1 iccup events.
i was pretty sure u casted it hmm ,i was wrong then ,the organizer was a guy called forcewater
Here are the final details for the teambattle event. If you have a problem with anything here, please let me know ASAP.
The event will be a best of 5/first to 3 winner's league format with 3 players (one for each race) per team. The teams have been randomly selected using random.org and will be as follows:
Eonzerg, Cryoc, Locdog vs Zaraki, Sterling, LancerX
The maps, in order of play (also selected using random.org), will be:
Turn up to channel "op teambattle" on the Fish server at 19:00GMT on Friday the 22nd of August. I'll be there and will be able to host games if that's an issue. The prize will be $10 each for the winning team. Please also let me know your Paypal address.
On August 18 2015 01:39 Cele wrote: agree with XKCD about the issue that a good amount of top players displayed a horrible attitude in casted games and forums. These players fail to understand, that a tournament is run by people, people who get satisfaction from making an awesome tournament happen.
If you treat these people bad, they won't be inclinded to organized such things, it's a simple truth. Im fine with people arguing about the scan question is a constructive, decent way. But the amount of TO bashing, random user bashing and "whats your maxrank you can't even sustain D on ICC thus you have no right to voice your opinion here" is just plain horrible and disgusting. Throwing casted games just to prove a point is the most silly thing to do in my opinion.
Dont know the rest but when you are telling someone go practise to win scan he is clearly a noob,or you are talking with bakuryu that has Mind powers and can convinced you that is possible.blame my participation in TLC to bakuryu he was the one that convinced me with just one skype talk ..
i never throwed a game in my life in purpose,when im in the game i play to win,i feel good winning,lossing sux,im so angry after my loss but keep fighting wathever,the guy you are defending he throwed games for money,he was banned from TSL. ironic right ? ^^
On August 18 2015 01:12 JimmyJRaynor wrote: the problem with a new interface is the community disagreements .
there will always be disagreements about anything new and its usually only the small subset of gamers who will be vocal/complains, the rest are actually fine with it. thanks for linking an obvious joke vid to prove your point.
yeah some games are not meant for certain interfaces but that does not mean the game will simply end because its input interface becomes obsolete. New interfaces that is beyond our imagination might be invented in the future to adopt old games easily. games that are fundamentally fun/innovative will always be fondly remembered and adopted in the future when people grew bored by the crappy sc10 that requires no macro/thought, full of pay2win nonsense and only30 apm needed to play like a pro. some idiots complain but who cares? the people who actually understand what the original game is about and care will continue to cherish and support the legacy games irregardless of opinions, they dont need some kid internet troll to tell them what to like or dont like
On August 18 2015 01:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: hmmm,hey Mr Amazingxcd i have news for you.i have contributed more for bw than you(with games,with cast,helping players,teaching them,sending replays,sharing replays,playing in many non money tournaments show matches and leagues.but actually i also sponsored by my self my team to play in teamleagues,its been me the the only one that always pay for iFU to be in the money teamleagues,oh wait also i sponsored some defiler tours,some minitours,hell i even donate for streamers... . now cuz your bw lvl is terrible that you arent abble to see a shit from what u looking in the games i gonna help you,in my series vs Scan the first game was 12h vs 9p,if you didnt know 9p is the hard counter for 12h from here everything ok right ? now if the 9p player is skiping speed and goes for lair is not hard counter but is actually game over,at the lvl we are it is,i dont know in D ranks maybe u can keep playing.
2 game:This game was a zvt i was doing 2h muta,as you see 2h muta is a build where u need to contain the terran player killing his first army very fast and keep the pressure in the game.Well it happens that the latency was so bad that my micro muta was totally off,everytime i tryed to attack the game made a lag spike and the mutalisk bug and didnt attack.They were moving like valkiries.now if u dont understand this go play 1v1 vs computers and make some valkiries and try to control it,im saying this cuz you are big ignorant in the game that is spoking himself without any knowledge.
in the third game i made a move that i tend to do very often in my stream,sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt,with the bad latency i was having in the game there was not pleasure for me to play more than necesary vs scan,i saw one opportunity i took it,it failed GG.
if i remember well Bisudagger was hosting some kind of clanwar of 3 players vs 3 players all kill style it was Cryoc Dsaqwe and me, at the end cryoc all killed all the oponents,and me and Dsaqwe didnt even ask to get that prize..
Now i dont understand how you are not still banned from this forum.i find it pathetic you insulting others players,Plz come to Trutacz Lan i will like to fix the problems with you in real ok? no forums insults is for pathetic people...
pd:dont come with you are doing alot with snipealot streams.you cant actually do a sh*t,it is alexandous the one that does everything and u need wait for him,thats why snipealots streams are now only showing Nada -_-
That was not me. I have only hosted official 1v1 iccup events.
ubject: Re: Teambattle Final Details Date: 8/15/14 18:19 Yeah, sure! Bisudagger will be doing a cast from replays a couple of hours afterwards, too.
I have no words for this. At least you should've waited for the official thread to do this. You are spoiling a decision they wanted to tell later. What are you doing?. Also you are saying a lot of things that are not true, we would be playing this tournaments even if there was no prize pool, we have proof of it as we still play the game, do you remember when last tls was? And why are you pointing with your finger a player that has been contributing to the game and community more than you, scan and me altogheter?You only show once again that you don't have any idea of the real circumstances. Comparing eon and scan contributions to foreigner bw is a really bad joke.
On August 18 2015 01:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: hmmm,hey Mr Amazingxcd i have news for you.i have contributed more for bw than you(with games,with cast,helping players,teaching them,sending replays,sharing replays,playing in many non money tournaments show matches and leagues.but actually i also sponsored by my self my team to play in teamleagues,its been me the the only one that always pay for iFU to be in the money teamleagues,oh wait also i sponsored some defiler tours,some minitours,hell i even donate for streamers... . now cuz your bw lvl is terrible that you arent abble to see a shit from what u looking in the games i gonna help you,in my series vs Scan the first game was 12h vs 9p,if you didnt know 9p is the hard counter for 12h from here everything ok right ? now if the 9p player is skiping speed and goes for lair is not hard counter but is actually game over,at the lvl we are it is,i dont know in D ranks maybe u can keep playing.
2 game:This game was a zvt i was doing 2h muta,as you see 2h muta is a build where u need to contain the terran player killing his first army very fast and keep the pressure in the game.Well it happens that the latency was so bad that my micro muta was totally off,everytime i tryed to attack the game made a lag spike and the mutalisk bug and didnt attack.They were moving like valkiries.now if u dont understand this go play 1v1 vs computers and make some valkiries and try to control it,im saying this cuz you are big ignorant in the game that is spoking himself without any knowledge.
in the third game i made a move that i tend to do very often in my stream,sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt,with the bad latency i was having in the game there was not pleasure for me to play more than necesary vs scan,i saw one opportunity i took it,it failed GG.
if i remember well Bisudagger was hosting some kind of clanwar of 3 players vs 3 players all kill style it was Cryoc Dsaqwe and me, at the end cryoc all killed all the oponents,and me and Dsaqwe didnt even ask to get that prize..
Now i dont understand how you are not still banned from this forum.i find it pathetic you insulting others players,Plz come to Trutacz Lan i will like to fix the problems with you in real ok? no forums insults is for pathetic people...
pd:dont come with you are doing alot with snipealot streams.you cant actually do a sh*t,it is alexandous the one that does everything and u need wait for him,thats why snipealots streams are now only showing Nada -_-
That was not me. I have only hosted official 1v1 iccup events.
ubject: Re: Teambattle Final Details Date: 8/15/14 18:19 Yeah, sure! Bisudagger will be doing a cast from replays a couple of hours afterwards, too.
I don't think I actually casted that. The intention may have been there, but I honestly don't remember that lol!
edit: I just saw your post before this quoted one. I def remember having talks with forcewater and may have been a part of that. My mind is crap if it has nothing to do with programming these days. xD!
Many of the posts (including the ones by Eon and XKCD) were driven by the emotions and are over the top. It's easy to be rude on the forums when you don't observe the reactions in real time and your normal psychology just doesn't apply. I'm sure we're not like that irl. I'm more than positive that everyone respects everyone else here, let's just cool down.
On August 17 2015 19:56 Liquid`Drone wrote: As a first little disclaimer, I have not been involved in any decisions taken one way or the other regarding who can play in TLC and who can not, and despite my name this is also not an official TL response, it's just my personal opinion.
While I think that some of the responses from TLC players towards TL staff (who have been trying their hardest to have been really stupid, sometimes offensive, and while I have been disappointed watching some matches where it seemed like players weren't even trying their best (to be fair, desperate cheeses due to feeling inferior can often look like not trying after they fail), I can't help but feel that you are speaking from a position of ignorance here.
The notion that players can just 'practice harder' and beat scan, that is ridiculous. I am a former Norwegian champion, I was captain of Team Europe (a team Europe which beat team Asia - technically, I captained Europe to a World Championship victory), and while I'm sure this is up for debate, I personally think that at my peak, I was something like ~top 5 outside South Korea, and this was during a time and age with a far more active foreign scene. Yet, even if I, who clearly has a lot of talent for the game and a high potential, spent the next 6 months playing 8 hours every day (which is not even remotely close to viable due to real life obligations, and I think it is like this for pretty much every still playing player), I still think Scan would be a massive favorite against me. And hey, the fact is, I actually have a winning record against him! We played a bunch in 2008 or whatever, before he became a monster, but watching him now, there's a fluidity and perfection to his game that I don't think I could match no matter how hard I tried.
Brood War is a game of an almost infinitely high skill ceiling, and due to how immersed South Korean culture has been in the game, and considering how much you improve from being able to fluently communicate strategies and ideas with people who are touching the peak of what is humanly possible to execute, it is not viable. I don't know when you started following Starcraft, but I've been in the scene since 1998, and I've been playing against other top players since 1999. One thing has consistently been true, especially after ~2001 or so when Korea started being dominant: Players who went to Korea to practice ended up realizing their potential in a wholly different way from people who stayed at home. The longer time that passed since 2001, the more separate Korea and Non-Korea became, and the more people would benefit from having access to an actual korean training regiment.
Idra, Ret, Nony, Draco, all these players went to Korea and achieved a level of skill nobody who did not go ended up achieving. I guess you can argue an exception for Mondragon but with his talent for the game it isn't really a fair comparison. While in the past, we always wanted to encourage nonkorean players to go there, to become the best they could become, and thus would always allow Nonkorean players to participate in tournaments even though their eventual victory might have seemed like a foregone conclusion. Scan has been in a funky position, where he is korean, has benefited from the korean training regiment, but where he has also to some degree been a very valuable community member who communicates in English, so it's tough to compare.
Frankly, and while I have had no part in staff decisions, and where I didn't even know what they were going to end up doing prior to reading your post which makes it pretty clear that Scan won't (fully?) be able to compete in the following TLC tournaments, I have to say that I think it looks like they made the best choice, both at first, and now. Firstly, his level of dominance is a factor - it's the embodiment of the benefit you get from the Korean training regiment and understanding of Korean language and immersion in Korean Brood War culture. Secondly, TL staff didn't, and could not have been expected to, understand how dominant he was prior to the tournament. Now TL staff does, and apparently has changed their mind. I can't but voice my support, and while I was personally registering for these tournaments with the hopes of drawing scan so I could bring some brilliant cheese to the table, I will now be registering for the future tournaments with one less impossible obstacle to pass, and I will be watching these tournaments without being certain of the eventual winner. Good job everyone involved, it's hard to go back on a decision, especially when the people who are forcing you to go back on it are insulting you, but it's clearly the right thing to do.
you realize that between the scan you knew from 2008 and scan nowadays, scan was playing from the States right? I really am interested what allowed him to get better than Pro7ect or any other player. Both played from non-Korea, both are [insert your Korea Korea here]. The way Scan improved is fascinating. I really dislike how people try to blame him speaking Korean for that, like taking away the effort he spent there.
However, I really don't care if he isn't part of the TLC anymore or not - tons of ZvZ finals here we come. No better, no worse, but maybe the crying stops.
I actually didn't realize that, I thought there was a period of time where he lived in korea between 2008 and 2015. Honestly, if that's not the case, then I think my argument is slightly weaker/ it has to be slightly altered to focus on 'professional environment available to him' or something.
How wasn't that the case for anyone else? Nobody stopped anyone from learning Korean or from studying something at a Korean university. Because, basically, that's what he did - move away and still invest a large amount of his life on something he seems to love. I hope you realize how incredibly paradox arguements like these are. It's even worse if it's exaggerated so much people start to flame the shit out of him for playing BW. On stream. On a Brood War page. Whose majority just watches streams.
The amount of irony in these topics gets to me, I honestly don't know if I should laugh or cry. It's people with 20games/day calling someone with 25games/day a nolifer, it's """organizers""" giving tipps to admins, it's people with a thread full of BM reports calling posts insulting, it's inactive players threatening with continued inactivity, it's people with rather questionable English discussing semantic errors, and above all else, it's not even fun. When it's about a computer game. People just try to hate each other more than the rest, so you can claim you "love" the game more than anyone else. Or very sophisticated satire I do not understand. If that's the case, sorry...
On August 18 2015 02:39 amazingxkcd wrote: Still doesn't give your excuse to go for a lop sided drone drool into 2 cannons
OMH MY GOD, THE DRONES ARE TO TRY CANCEL THE CANON and to force protoss to pull probes.no doubt you have no clue what happen in games you are not even D rank but Z
On August 17 2015 19:56 Liquid`Drone wrote: As a first little disclaimer, I have not been involved in any decisions taken one way or the other regarding who can play in TLC and who can not, and despite my name this is also not an official TL response, it's just my personal opinion.
While I think that some of the responses from TLC players towards TL staff (who have been trying their hardest to have been really stupid, sometimes offensive, and while I have been disappointed watching some matches where it seemed like players weren't even trying their best (to be fair, desperate cheeses due to feeling inferior can often look like not trying after they fail), I can't help but feel that you are speaking from a position of ignorance here.
The notion that players can just 'practice harder' and beat scan, that is ridiculous. I am a former Norwegian champion, I was captain of Team Europe (a team Europe which beat team Asia - technically, I captained Europe to a World Championship victory), and while I'm sure this is up for debate, I personally think that at my peak, I was something like ~top 5 outside South Korea, and this was during a time and age with a far more active foreign scene. Yet, even if I, who clearly has a lot of talent for the game and a high potential, spent the next 6 months playing 8 hours every day (which is not even remotely close to viable due to real life obligations, and I think it is like this for pretty much every still playing player), I still think Scan would be a massive favorite against me. And hey, the fact is, I actually have a winning record against him! We played a bunch in 2008 or whatever, before he became a monster, but watching him now, there's a fluidity and perfection to his game that I don't think I could match no matter how hard I tried.
Brood War is a game of an almost infinitely high skill ceiling, and due to how immersed South Korean culture has been in the game, and considering how much you improve from being able to fluently communicate strategies and ideas with people who are touching the peak of what is humanly possible to execute, it is not viable. I don't know when you started following Starcraft, but I've been in the scene since 1998, and I've been playing against other top players since 1999. One thing has consistently been true, especially after ~2001 or so when Korea started being dominant: Players who went to Korea to practice ended up realizing their potential in a wholly different way from people who stayed at home. The longer time that passed since 2001, the more separate Korea and Non-Korea became, and the more people would benefit from having access to an actual korean training regiment.
Idra, Ret, Nony, Draco, all these players went to Korea and achieved a level of skill nobody who did not go ended up achieving. I guess you can argue an exception for Mondragon but with his talent for the game it isn't really a fair comparison. While in the past, we always wanted to encourage nonkorean players to go there, to become the best they could become, and thus would always allow Nonkorean players to participate in tournaments even though their eventual victory might have seemed like a foregone conclusion. Scan has been in a funky position, where he is korean, has benefited from the korean training regiment, but where he has also to some degree been a very valuable community member who communicates in English, so it's tough to compare.
Frankly, and while I have had no part in staff decisions, and where I didn't even know what they were going to end up doing prior to reading your post which makes it pretty clear that Scan won't (fully?) be able to compete in the following TLC tournaments, I have to say that I think it looks like they made the best choice, both at first, and now. Firstly, his level of dominance is a factor - it's the embodiment of the benefit you get from the Korean training regiment and understanding of Korean language and immersion in Korean Brood War culture. Secondly, TL staff didn't, and could not have been expected to, understand how dominant he was prior to the tournament. Now TL staff does, and apparently has changed their mind. I can't but voice my support, and while I was personally registering for these tournaments with the hopes of drawing scan so I could bring some brilliant cheese to the table, I will now be registering for the future tournaments with one less impossible obstacle to pass, and I will be watching these tournaments without being certain of the eventual winner. Good job everyone involved, it's hard to go back on a decision, especially when the people who are forcing you to go back on it are insulting you, but it's clearly the right thing to do.
you realize that between the scan you knew from 2008 and scan nowadays, scan was playing from the States right? I really am interested what allowed him to get better than Pro7ect or any other player. Both played from non-Korea, both are [insert your Korea Korea here]. The way Scan improved is fascinating. I really dislike how people try to blame him speaking Korean for that, like taking away the effort he spent there.
However, I really don't care if he isn't part of the TLC anymore or not - tons of ZvZ finals here we come. No better, no worse, but maybe the crying stops.
I actually didn't realize that, I thought there was a period of time where he lived in korea between 2008 and 2015. Honestly, if that's not the case, then I think my argument is slightly weaker/ it has to be slightly altered to focus on 'professional environment available to him' or something.
How wasn't that the case for anyone else? Nobody stopped anyone from learning Korean or from studying something at a Korean university. Because, basically, that's what he did - move away and still invest a large amount of his life on something he seems to love. I hope you realize how incredibly paradox arguements like these are. It's even worse if it's exaggerated so much people start to flame the shit out of him for playing BW. On stream. On a Brood War page. Whose majority just watches streams.
The amount of irony in these topics gets to me, I honestly don't know if I should laugh or cry. It's people with 20games/day calling someone with 25games/day a nolifer, it's """organizers""" giving tipps to admins, it's people with a thread full of BM reports calling posts insulting, it's inactive players threatening with continued inactivity, it's people with rather questionable English discussing semantic errors, and above all else, it's not even fun. When it's about a computer game. People just try to hate each other more than the rest, so you can claim you "love" the game more than anyone else. Or very sophisticated satire I do not understand. If that's the case, sorry...
People just try to hate each other more than the rest
You should know, you're an expert at this. Also, for holding grudges. Yet... You talk about irony.
This topic overall serves no purpose aside from fuel a fire that doesn't need any help. I think the OP needs to correct itself, this is one of MANY reasons why Brood War has been in a steady decline.
On the one hand, I have no personal qualms with Scan being part of our events. On the other hand, I understand exactly where the players complaints are coming from.
Who here remembers WCG? It was definitely an event where WCG Korea was what really mattered, and where WCG Worlds was essentially just a farce. Foreign players that match up against the three Korean representatives just get tossed aside with close to zero chance of winning. And imagine how much it sucks to put in the effort to be the best in your country, only to go to an event that basically says, "ok ur adorable, but ur never going to win so glhf playing for silver/4th place." And don't get me started on if you just happen to get matched against one of those top tier players and just drop out early even if you're better than everyone else in that event. That's what happens when you put in a player that's out of everybody's league into a tournament.
Scan is no more of a "foreigner" than Jaedong, who joined a foreign team and travels the world to attend games. Our own players are not wrong in feeling that Scan has means of improving that are closed to them. Whether or not that's reason enough to exclude him from tournaments, I'd rather not be the one to make that call.
What we need is a collab between psychologists and sociologists to write a paper on the reflexive and bipolar nature of the SC community. Saying that someone is killing Starcraft kills Starcraft and so I'll accuse certain people of killing Starcraft, thus killing Starcraft.
At the end of the day, Starcraft is entirely capable of dying out on its own and I don't think that the toxicity is coming out of no where, it has a source in the context. I for one don't believe that negativity is the cause of SCBW's decline, the causal link is the other way around. SCBW is declining naturally during the convergence of its various enemies: new OSes which don't properly support it, its fall into obsolescence in a world where simple and user friendliness becomes the norm, among other things. The toxicity is the result of this decline, and perhaps it expedites the process but it's not causing it.
On August 18 2015 01:39 Cele wrote: agree with XKCD about the issue that a good amount of top players displayed a horrible attitude in casted games and forums. These players fail to understand, that a tournament is run by people, people who get satisfaction from making an awesome tournament happen.
If you treat these people bad, they won't be inclinded to organized such things, it's a simple truth. Im fine with people arguing about the scan question is a constructive, decent way. But the amount of TO bashing, random user bashing and "whats your maxrank you can't even sustain D on ICC thus you have no right to voice your opinion here" is just plain horrible and disgusting. Throwing casted games just to prove a point is the most silly thing to do in my opinion.
Dont know the rest but when you are telling someone go practise to win scan he is clearly a noob,or you are talking with bakuryu that has Mind powers and can convinced you that is possible.blame my participation in TLC to bakuryu he was the one that convinced me with just one skype talk ..
you can not just say everybody is noob coz he doesn't share my opinion. I know enough good players, top players, who think that Scan is TLS+TLC is beatable.
On August 18 2015 01:39 Cele wrote: agree with XKCD about the issue that a good amount of top players displayed a horrible attitude in casted games and forums. These players fail to understand, that a tournament is run by people, people who get satisfaction from making an awesome tournament happen.
If you treat these people bad, they won't be inclinded to organized such things, it's a simple truth. Im fine with people arguing about the scan question is a constructive, decent way. But the amount of TO bashing, random user bashing and "whats your maxrank you can't even sustain D on ICC thus you have no right to voice your opinion here" is just plain horrible and disgusting. Throwing casted games just to prove a point is the most silly thing to do in my opinion.
Dont know the rest but when you are telling someone go practise to win scan he is clearly a noob,or you are talking with bakuryu that has Mind powers and can convinced you that is possible.blame my participation in TLC to bakuryu he was the one that convinced me with just one skype talk ..
you can not just say everybody is noob coz he doesn't share my opinion. I know enough good players, top players, who think that Scan is TLS+TLC is beatable.
as i said dont speak with bakuryu. Sziky is the best player we have in foreign community and is still mission impossible to take a bo5 series zvt,if scan offraces score 2-2 maybe in the game 5 is still possible to win if scan has a bad day.
On August 18 2015 01:39 Cele wrote: agree with XKCD about the issue that a good amount of top players displayed a horrible attitude in casted games and forums. These players fail to understand, that a tournament is run by people, people who get satisfaction from making an awesome tournament happen.
If you treat these people bad, they won't be inclinded to organized such things, it's a simple truth. Im fine with people arguing about the scan question is a constructive, decent way. But the amount of TO bashing, random user bashing and "whats your maxrank you can't even sustain D on ICC thus you have no right to voice your opinion here" is just plain horrible and disgusting. Throwing casted games just to prove a point is the most silly thing to do in my opinion.
Dont know the rest but when you are telling someone go practise to win scan he is clearly a noob,or you are talking with bakuryu that has Mind powers and can convinced you that is possible.blame my participation in TLC to bakuryu he was the one that convinced me with just one skype talk ..
you can not just say everybody is noob coz he doesn't share your opinion. I know enough good players, top players, who think that Scan is TLS+TLC is beatable.
What is this? I am the highest rank thus only my opinion counts? Then let Scan decide if he can play, he has the most skill. Im very tired of this "you can't even keep D- rank on iccup" argument. It is stupid. Not playing this game as good as you doesn't mean you have the right to tell everybody to be silent.
On August 18 2015 01:39 Cele wrote: agree with XKCD about the issue that a good amount of top players displayed a horrible attitude in casted games and forums. These players fail to understand, that a tournament is run by people, people who get satisfaction from making an awesome tournament happen.
If you treat these people bad, they won't be inclinded to organized such things, it's a simple truth. Im fine with people arguing about the scan question is a constructive, decent way. But the amount of TO bashing, random user bashing and "whats your maxrank you can't even sustain D on ICC thus you have no right to voice your opinion here" is just plain horrible and disgusting. Throwing casted games just to prove a point is the most silly thing to do in my opinion.
Dont know the rest but when you are telling someone go practise to win scan he is clearly a noob,or you are talking with bakuryu that has Mind powers and can convinced you that is possible.blame my participation in TLC to bakuryu he was the one that convinced me with just one skype talk ..
you can not just say everybody is noob coz he doesn't share your opinion. I know enough good players, top players, who think that Scan is TLS+TLC is beatable.
What is this? I am the highest rank thus only my opinion counts? Then let Scan decide if he can play, he has the most skill. Im very tired of this "you can't even keep D- rank on iccup" argument. It is stupid. Not playing this game as good as you doesn't mean you have the right to tell everybody to be silent.
I respect you Eon, but this argument is not good.
Actually im dont like to call others d ranks or bm if you disagree with me,im not that type of guy and u know it well cele.im just telling you that how it works,you saw trutacz reacted when someone told him go practise ?,in the few cases i know the people telling it and i know their skill i can tell you they are wrong,just read liquid`drone post plz,from someone of his manner/caliber maybe u will eat it different,idk,i u feel i offended you im sorry
Eon is right about that you can't just "practice harder" to beat Scan. I don't think that the amount that Scan practices is so great that that is the secret to his success. It would be easy to say "just practice harder you lazy bums," but that just doesn't reflect reality.
Scan has friends among ex-progamers, and among non-professional amateurs within the Korean scene. He can get games of course, but also he can get pointers from them, and have real experts tell him where he needs to improve. With foreigners? Koreans barely even agree to play games with us, much less help us improve. That advantage is substantial and systemic rather than just a product of work ethic.
On August 18 2015 01:39 Cele wrote: agree with XKCD about the issue that a good amount of top players displayed a horrible attitude in casted games and forums. These players fail to understand, that a tournament is run by people, people who get satisfaction from making an awesome tournament happen.
If you treat these people bad, they won't be inclinded to organized such things, it's a simple truth. Im fine with people arguing about the scan question is a constructive, decent way. But the amount of TO bashing, random user bashing and "whats your maxrank you can't even sustain D on ICC thus you have no right to voice your opinion here" is just plain horrible and disgusting. Throwing casted games just to prove a point is the most silly thing to do in my opinion.
Dont know the rest but when you are telling someone go practise to win scan he is clearly a noob,or you are talking with bakuryu that has Mind powers and can convinced you that is possible.blame my participation in TLC to bakuryu he was the one that convinced me with just one skype talk ..
you can not just say everybody is noob coz he doesn't share your opinion. I know enough good players, top players, who think that Scan is TLS+TLC is beatable.
What is this? I am the highest rank thus only my opinion counts? Then let Scan decide if he can play, he has the most skill. Im very tired of this "you can't even keep D- rank on iccup" argument. It is stupid. Not playing this game as good as you doesn't mean you have the right to tell everybody to be silent.
I respect you Eon, but this argument is not good.
Actually im dont like to call others d ranks or bm if you disagree with me,im not that type of guy and u know it well cele.im just telling you that how it works,you saw trutacz reacted when someone told him go practise ?,in the few cases i know the people telling it and i know their skill i can tell you they are wrong,just read liquid`drone post plz,from someone of his manner/caliber maybe u will eat it different,idk,i u feel i offended you im sorry
no you did not offend me. And true is, you didn't write "he is D rank" Other people did. I just wanted to say, because someone is bad in the game doesn't mean he has no idea what he talks about. And that very good players think Scan is beatable. I respect your opinion on the matter and that of ToT)Eriador aswell.
I respect all opinions that are made in a constructive manner, i just think all this drama and flame is bad for everything. It doesn't help with with good decisions and it makes everybody angry about it.
You do realise that since we are the better players we understand the game better and for that reason we can give you a better insight into the problems we face playing against Scan. Do you guys really think we care about the stupid 50$ and bother to write huge posts only because we are greedy assholes? Can you stop for one second and think clearly that the reason is obviously something more and it is simple - the fact that his participation is biased and unfair and it produces in-game problems that happen to favour him even more on our level of play.
@amazingxcd
I have a good question for you choosing to ignore the obvious false accusation you made towards EonZerg which was a huge mistake by you. My question facing your argument in this blog is - if half of the active community including almost all of the top foreigner players as of now continuously report the same issues with a player that obviously contradicted the rules of the cups itself(no sorry, the rules were made especially for him to participate given the current circumstances), don't you think that there must be something seriously wrong with the whole thing? Don't you think we all felt a similar feeling that something was wrong? I can assure you that the feeling has nothing to do with the prize pool since nobody here ever made or is making a living off this game, we only kept playing it throughout so many years because of the passion, fun and inner excitement it gives us. Are you really willing to defend the only south-korean in the event who lags with us, is clearly at a semi-professional level of starcraft, will always be part of the korean scene and only participated in our money events? What does that tell you about him? That he is in to show good games, knowing that he is levels above us and has no real reason to be considered a "foreigner"? Let me know if anything i wrote here isn't a fact, because i am pretty sure i've only expressed common information here.
This thread could have been named '[TLC] TeamLiquid Legacy Cup #5' and I wouldn't have noticed any difference. You guys really need to stop being so uptight.
On August 18 2015 02:57 GeckoXp wrote: Nobody stopped anyone from learning Korean or from studying something at a Korean university...
This seems as the new and funnier version of the "Go practice to win everybody at SC:BW" joke. This time it's "Go to korea, go study in a Korean university to go to practice to win everybody at SC:BW".
On August 18 2015 02:57 GeckoXp wrote: Nobody stopped anyone from learning Korean or from studying something at a Korean university...
This seems as the new and funnier version of the "Go practice to win everybody at SC:BW" joke. This time it's "Go to korea, go study in a Korean university to go to practice to win everybody at SC:BW".
I don't consider his nationality the ultimative key to his improvement. As stated before, he improved the most when he wasn't in Korea, but playing with the Chinese from the States. There's not much of an edge he had there in comparison to other players. In my opinion it was his dedication in combination with the effort he spent on Brood War. He might've had the advantage of only having to study besides gaming, but that's about it. I get that speaking with other (semi professional) Koreans might have helped, but most of what he did came from his training schedule - which isn't really related to him speaking Korean. Maybe you get me wrong, I'm referring to what he did in between "Sziky could beat him regularly" to today. I'm not argueing that he's so far ahead by now that it's basically impossible to really expect any foreigner to close the gap.
on a more serious topic
Yes, but you don't dare to train. Because you're not cool anymore. It's like you have given up on the idea you could beat Germany in a nation war. That's why you ignore Wallace's requests to field a team and face us. SCHLAND PREVAILS ONCE MORE.
btw your signature still says enjoy the game. so let's do that and agree to disagree, it's not like it matters anymore. seriously, please let's arrange some fun wars, even if you play from an iPad and with a 600 ms delay and offrace or some shit.
On August 18 2015 04:58 LRM)TechnicS wrote: +1 Liquid`Drone, eonzerg and zaraki
Gecko, in relation to Scan, is this a joke?
On August 18 2015 02:57 GeckoXp wrote: Nobody stopped anyone from learning Korean or from studying something at a Korean university...
This seems as the new and funnier version of the "Go practice to win everybody at SC:BW" joke. This time it's "Go to korea, go study in a Korean university to go to practice to win everybody at SC:BW".
I don't consider his nationality the ultimative key to his improvement. As stated before, he improved the most when he wasn't in Korea, but playing with the Chinese from the States. There's not much of an edge he had there in comparison to other players. In my opinion it was his dedication in combination with the effort he spent on Brood War. He might've had the advantage of only having to study besides gaming, but that's about it. I get that speaking with other (semi professional) Koreans might have helped, but most of what he did came from his training schedule - which isn't really related to him speaking Korean. Maybe you get me wrong, I'm referring to what he did in between "Sziky could beat him regularly" to today. I'm not argueing that he's so far ahead by now that it's basically impossible to really expect any foreigner to close the gap.
on a more serious topic
Yes, but you don't dare to train. Because you're not cool anymore. It's like you have given up on the idea you could beat Germany in a nation war. That's why you ignore Wallace's requests to field a team and face us. SCHLAND PREVAILS ONCE MORE.
btw your signature still says enjoy the game. so let's do that and agree to disagree, it's not like it matters anymore. seriously, please let's arrange some fun wars, even if you play from an iPad and with a 600 ms delay and offrace or some shit.
but we no players T.T
not to derail: the blogpost is so wrong on so many levels in my opinion that I am really not willing to be replying as thoroughly here
You know what? There are a few things to consider here:
The staff said that Chinese and Korean players who were active in the "foreign scene" could participate, and I will respect that decision. Scan, so far, has participated in both TSLs, the first ISL, several million Defiler.ru tours, has put his stream on TL, has made a strategy section thread, has done countless 2v2 things on iccup with foreigners like Nizzy, Belladona, etc., was still playing iCCup when almost every other Korean decided to leave, talks with foreigners on Skype in Skype groups, has done interviews in English (not translated) for English-speaking people, and if there's more I'm leaving out, then please - by all means, throw it into the pot.
Next, if Scan was completely barred tomorrow for some unknown reason, like maybe his cat died and he was in mourning for several years, you still have the next bonjwa, Sziky, looming overhead. Sziky is like the new Mondragon. He will win nearly every tournament he participates in, and he's not even from one of those azn countries! + Show Spoiler [fluidrone spoiler] +
Although the Mongol Empire did reach as far as the Magyar Kingdom, so there might be some azn blood running through his veins
I know some people may disagree with me and say "Oh, I can beat Sziky" because they took a game off him here and there, but he will grind out a series and still win. The ZvP final against dOTY and ZvZ final against TechnicS were both extremely close - but Sziky won both of those series. And if you think Scan is scary, think about how many times Sziky has beaten Scan. I know Scan has won more games overall in more recent competition, but that does not diminish how dominant Sziky has been over ALL of the top-level competition.
Scan is not a "progamer" and does not play 24/7. He has beaten some good players on Fish. But also consider that LancerX beat sSak, or that dRaW beat TerrOr[fOu]. Was it luck? Probably not. Lancer and Draw were both playing a lot when they did this, and Scan has been playing quite a bit for awhile now, so when people go "Oh, he's playing versus pros" I would say... yeah, he is. But he's also paid his dues, getting beaten down a lot in 2008-2009 tournaments. I don't know if I've ever told this story on Teamliquid, but there was a US EAST clan called "eX_" and one of the guys from the clan sponsored weekly tournaments before he went into the army. If you were in the clan, you would win double the money for first place. I remember that Scan was in it as "eX_LastScan", there was also OctZerg, Yan, Daren[Shield], Draw, Game, and a whole slew of other US East and some US West players. There was also ToT)Yosh(, who came on East, registered with the clan as "eX_Yosh" and won every single eX tournament he was in. The interesting thing was that Scan would beat everyone except for Yosh. Every week, there would be these really epic Yosh vs Scan finals (I wish I had the replays because these were some fucking awesome games) and they were probably some of the most entertaining TvT games I've ever seen. But Yosh won not only every series, but also, almost every game they played, period. I even started joking that Yosh was a school bully who was taking Scan's lunch-money.
The point of that story isn't to try and embarrass Scan or anything. I'm just saying that there was a time when he was getting beaten a lot but didn't give up. But yes, he's probably going to win every TLC. It will likely take years before anyone else can catch up to him and beat him. I think Sziky can win a series versus Scan, but I don't think he wants to put in the work to do it.
I agree with amazing (personally I started secrely training bw as soon as i heard that this tournament started... not like anyone would even notice if it was not secret, but it felt better anyway). I dont know about eonzerg there, so on that, no comment.
What I totally disagree is with Drones claim on beating scan. Not only is it possible, its actually rather easy if commitment is given to real practice. Ive always been a mediocre player (never put too much effort in the game, highest rank was B- 2on2), yet ive won vs many big names with he right preparation (Draco, nada, yellow, mondragon, incontrol, breakdown, gentleman, Fenix). All those dropped series against me with less than 1 week preparation for either a sparing game or actual clan war.
I agree that the skill has increased madly in the time that went from that time, in fish I went 2-15 when I thought I was doing "ok" so... yeah nice way to bring me back to reality.
My training goal was actually to beat scan, but i noticed its going too slow, probably due to my old age (31), and bad habits from a long time playing the game the wrong way.
Now as for Eonzerg's post.... There are two things I was wondering. First, Even if amazing is totally off track here, I think you could put it in other words to make it less controversial (I know its not something easy to do, but still).,
Second, there were a few things I was unsure about in the games you played (correlating to your post and explanation). 9 pool is a hard counter to 12 hatch, but I was wondering if its not salvagable still. If you make a sunken at your main, you can go for a ling all-in for example forcing perhaps sunkens to get ahead in eco? I mean... its scan so its not like he is going to screw up... but it was a 1 hatch muta after all, hell, ive seen games where 4 lings won vs 1 muta (both z with no drones).
Second game I saw nothing weird. Since I was not playing it, I dont know how mutas were moving obviously, but the game did not look to me like a throw away... except those lings at start on the bunker and marines.... that I did not understand at all.
Third game I thought you misstimed the drone drill, but I found it odd that you would go for that if you did not know the timing. Still, something that can happen.
Im not trying to take sides here, just put my thoughts on the post and the games, but please do not treat this post as me thinking I know better than anyone else, we got enought KnowItAlls (thats true for every game, not just broodwar thou. I think its the internets charm).
Oh and yeah, I think Scan should be allowed to play even if he wins every tournament. The guy sure puts a lot of personal work in the foreign scene as ninazerg smartly pointed out.
On August 18 2015 01:55 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i never throwed a game in my life in purpose,when im in the game i play to win,i feel good winning,lossing sux,im so angry after my loss but keep fighting wathever,the guy you are defending he throwed games for money,he was banned from TSL. ironic right ? ^^
Im lucky in this regard. I loose so much that it does not bother me anymore, and winning still feels great :D.
BTW, wouldent lag be fixed if the games of scan are played over hamachi? Random thought.
On August 18 2015 04:58 LRM)TechnicS wrote: +1 Liquid`Drone, eonzerg and zaraki
Gecko, in relation to Scan, is this a joke?
On August 18 2015 02:57 GeckoXp wrote: Nobody stopped anyone from learning Korean or from studying something at a Korean university...
This seems as the new and funnier version of the "Go practice to win everybody at SC:BW" joke. This time it's "Go to korea, go study in a Korean university to go to practice to win everybody at SC:BW".
I don't consider his nationality the ultimative key to his improvement. As stated before, he improved the most when he wasn't in Korea, but playing with the Chinese from the States. There's not much of an edge he had there in comparison to other players. In my opinion it was his dedication in combination with the effort he spent on Brood War. He might've had the advantage of only having to study besides gaming, but that's about it. I get that speaking with other (semi professional) Koreans might have helped, but most of what he did came from his training schedule - which isn't really related to him speaking Korean. Maybe you get me wrong, I'm referring to what he did in between "Sziky could beat him regularly" to today. I'm not argueing that he's so far ahead by now that it's basically impossible to really expect any foreigner to close the gap.
on a more serious topic
Yes, but you don't dare to train. Because you're not cool anymore. It's like you have given up on the idea you could beat Germany in a nation war. That's why you ignore Wallace's requests to field a team and face us. SCHLAND PREVAILS ONCE MORE.
btw your signature still says enjoy the game. so let's do that and agree to disagree, it's not like it matters anymore. seriously, please let's arrange some fun wars, even if you play from an iPad and with a 600 ms delay and offrace or some shit.
but we no players T.T
not to derail: the blogpost is so wrong on so many levels in my opinion that I am really not willing to be replying as thoroughly here
uuuuuh so let me get this straight: first you didn't lure artanis in a dark ally, you then didn't drug him and sacrifice him to our dark lord jaedong? and now this? i am disappoint. i expected more of you and wallace. so much more.
Nina, Scan is perfectly fit for playing in the cups as long as all koreans are allowed to play imo. But certainly not for a foreigner tournament that mentions the word foreign/foreigner in every second sentence. Rewatch Wallace's art and enjoy the day/night ahead. In my eyes opening a thread, angling foreigner competition/money and reviewing a translation does not make him that worthy of a contributor to receive such a privillege. I agree though the 2v2 iccup laddering might be considered correctly as a significant contribution but who knows. If we could find 20+ 2v2 players openly stating that without his focused help they would be far worse in 2v2 then i will be interested in a discussion. Probably the very first thing i said in the very first post of mine on the issue was related to lag. Three cups later the privilliged korean supposed contributor lectured just about every foreigner that dared to speak about lag vs him, with a very specific tone that i could not qualify as mannered, describing players as unwilling to pay low monthly fees for internet or describing whole nations as undeveloped. How do you feel about that?
So I guess we can subtlety insult people with a whole thread now...
@Gecko, I understand where you are coming from. He trained hard, he did have a clear advantage that he capitalized on but deserved his skill.
@Technics, I guess unless you are playing you have made your point. People don't really consider seasoned players' knowledge these days. I am hoping despite this that you will return because I need to play you again and I will have my PC ready soon.
@Nina, you are wrong. Scan will win 98%+ TvZ BoX vs Sziky for cash. (I can count the TvZ he lost to him in defiler tour on 1 hand)
@Noobs, Why so opinionated without knowledge? Go train BW until the TLS next January and say the same things please. Better yet, compete and show me your knowledge.
@Eon, we need to do a cast again real soon. We will be new Sayle :must1:
@TL Organizers, sorry on behalf of all retards. Life is tough, nobody can ever win. We all realize you were trying to do a good thing, but please don't say just go train and beat Scan. It's insulting, especially for the effort/time it will take. Very unrealistic. If someone manages to beat him, it will be very epic but don't bank on these stories of 'omg someone finally beat him SO AMAZING' because it really isn't if it's one win out of 200 games.
Also, I know that nobody really reads these posts and everyone just waits their turn to write something nonsensical but I would deeply appreciate it if you guys rotated a NEW ACTIVE caster with Sayle every week and had them also cast other things. I feel like if you really want BW to grow then you need to get Sayle off the monopoly of followers. Whenever I watch L_Master or another cast (even previously in Gambit Cup, etc) they would have a third or less of the viewers that Sayle has for any particular event, maybe even a smaller portion if it was a large cup.
Maybe talk with ICCup.Face as he organizes the A/B tours and showmatches with casters and it could be good for them.
On August 18 2015 11:00 dRaW wrote: So I guess we can subtlety insult people with a whole thread now...
@Gecko, I understand where you are coming from. He trained hard, he did have a clear advantage that he capitalized on but deserved his skill.
@Technics, I guess unless you are playing you have made your point. People don't really consider seasoned players' knowledge these days. I am hoping despite this that you will return because I need to play you again and I will have my PC ready soon.
@Nina, you are wrong. Scan will win 98%+ TvZ BoX vs Sziky for cash. (I can count the TvZ he lost to him in defiler tour on 1 hand)
@Noobs, Why so opinionated without knowledge? Go train BW until the TLS next January and say the same things please. Better yet, compete and show me your knowledge.
@Eon, we need to do a cast again real soon. We will be new Sayle :must1:
@TL Organizers, sorry on behalf of all retards. Life is tough, nobody can ever win. We all realize you were trying to do a good thing, but please don't say just go train and beat Scan. It's insulting, especially for the effort/time it will take. Very unrealistic. If someone manages to beat him, it will be very epic but don't bank on these stories of 'omg someone finally beat him SO AMAZING' because it really isn't if it's one win out of 200 games.
Also, I know that nobody really reads these posts and everyone just waits their turn to write something nonsensical but I would deeply appreciate it if you guys rotated a NEW ACTIVE caster with Sayle every week and had them also cast other things. I feel like if you really want BW to grow then you need to get Sayle off the monopoly of followers. Whenever I watch L_Master or another cast (even previously in Gambit Cup, etc) they would have a third or less of the viewers that Sayle has for any particular event, maybe even a smaller portion if it was a large cup.
Maybe talk with ICCup.Face as he organizes the A/B tours and showmatches with casters and it could be good for them.
As far as casting, even without the personal family issues that has kept me away, the casting time is in the middle of a Saturday for the US which is an always busy time. Sayle is fortunate to be in a timezone where he can manage to cast the majority of these. Just saying the times are probably hard for most wanting and equipped to cast.
Also, I know that nobody really reads these posts and everyone just waits their turn to write something nonsensical but I would deeply appreciate it if you guys rotated a NEW ACTIVE caster with Sayle every week and had them also cast other things. I feel like if you really want BW to grow then you need to get Sayle off the monopoly of followers. Whenever I watch L_Master or another cast (even previously in Gambit Cup, etc) they would have a third or less of the viewers that Sayle has for any particular event, maybe even a smaller portion if it was a large cup.
Maybe talk with ICCup.Face as he organizes the A/B tours and showmatches with casters and it could be good for them.
This is a pretty fair point.
I think understanding the reason for that is important, and I believe the primary reason is twitch followings. Sayle has over 3k followers. I've got 250. Despite this difference, Sayle only gets between 2-4x the viewer numbers I typically did despite having well over 12x the subs.
I suspect this means that most serious BW players are watching whoever casts with most of the other views coming from Sayle's followers dropping by.
So the question that really needs to be asked is why does Sayle have so many viewers? For sure he is a very good caster, who has spent more total time casting than me, which many more major events. However, I honestly don't think there are anywhere near 3k BW players in the foreign scene, let alone watching Sayle. If I recall he also did a bunch of casting during hybrid PL which drew HUGE interest from the SC2 crowd at the time. Sayle being both am excellent caster and a likable guy probably got a ton of subs during this period.
My suspicion is that Sayle's massive difference in viewer counts is largely a result of SC2 guys who got exposed to Sayle and enjoyed his casting enough to watch from time to time. If correct, this means that the typical number of BW fans that are going to watch any event is in the 100-500 range depending on exactly what the event is. The larger numbers seen on Sayle streams are non BW players who watch Sayle because they are subbed and decide to tune in on twitch.
Also, I know that nobody really reads these posts and everyone just waits their turn to write something nonsensical but I would deeply appreciate it if you guys rotated a NEW ACTIVE caster with Sayle every week and had them also cast other things. I feel like if you really want BW to grow then you need to get Sayle off the monopoly of followers. Whenever I watch L_Master or another cast (even previously in Gambit Cup, etc) they would have a third or less of the viewers that Sayle has for any particular event, maybe even a smaller portion if it was a large cup.
Maybe talk with ICCup.Face as he organizes the A/B tours and showmatches with casters and it could be good for them.
This is a pretty fair point.
I think understanding the reason for that is important, and I believe the primary reason is twitch followings. Sayle has over 3k followers. I've got 250. Despite this difference, Sayle only gets between 2-4x the viewer numbers I typically did despite having well over 12x the subs.
I suspect this means that most serious BW players are watching whoever casts with most of the other views coming from Sayle's followers dropping by.
So the question that really needs to be asked is why does Sayle have so many viewers? For sure he is a very good caster, who has spent more total time casting than me, which many more major events. However, I honestly don't think there are anywhere near 3k BW players in the foreign scene, let alone watching Sayle. If I recall he also did a bunch of casting during hybrid PL which drew HUGE interest from the SC2 crowd at the time. Sayle being both am excellent caster and a likable guy probably got a ton of subs during this period.
My suspicion is that Sayle's massive difference in viewer counts is largely a result of SC2 guys who got exposed to Sayle and enjoyed his casting enough to watch from time to time. If correct, this means that the typical number of BW fans that are going to watch any event is in the 100-500 range depending on exactly what the event is. The larger numbers seen on Sayle streams are non BW players who watch Sayle because they are subbed and decide to tune in on twitch.
I think that Sayle has just earned a more solid reputation because he's been a more consistent long-term caster than anyone else. I honestly have a hard time saying who would be the #2 best caster because everyone else is rather erratic and generally not a solo caster, usually just a copilot to Sayle at big events. On the other hand, in the old BW era, I could name many casters of decent repute who I would watch.
I also remember when Sayle was a pretty obscure and irrelevant caster and I saw him for the first time. Wasn't too impressed, but he got better and casted very consistently. That's what everyone else is lacking, at least from my perspective.
On August 18 2015 03:33 Djzapz wrote: At the end of the day, Starcraft is entirely capable of dying out on its own and I don't think that the toxicity is coming out of no where, it has a source in the context. I for one don't believe that negativity is the cause of SCBW's decline, the causal link is the other way around. SCBW is declining naturally during the convergence of its various enemies: new OSes which don't properly support it, its fall into obsolescence in a world where simple and user friendliness becomes the norm, among other things. The toxicity is the result of this decline, and perhaps it expedites the process but it's not causing it.
There seems to be an awful lot of this sentiment around that BW is in some manner dying. This baffles me. BW is absolutely flourishing and gaining momentum since 2012. There is justification for serious concern about new blood, but for anyone that reads this forum it should be readily apparent that BW has only been growing stronger and stronger since it suffered the brutal blows of being dropped from KeSPA and Korean TV.
Now, if you want to talk about that tiny microcosm of BW that is foreign BW, there is an argument to be made that BW is dying. And to some extent that is inevitable, KR may prove to be the exception, but outside of that I cannot envision a situation in which you'll get consistent enough new faces playing BW to match the pace of those who do leave. Given the attitudes of people toward gaming nowadays, the fact that BW is an older game, the decreasing level of compatibility with new OS, I cannot see what event or change would lead to sufficient interest in playing BW amongst new players to draw them in at a rate faster than older players will leave.
On the short term, foreign BW has been more asleep than it is dead/dying. Nobody was willing to organize tours, and without that incentive many of the top guys stopped playing. If there is never a good forum for competition you lose the carrot to work hard on a game. BW may be fun to play, but to play many hours a day seriously to improve is probably not as fun; and certainly has a much greater time cost that must come from other parts of a persons life. Without any purpose or motivation to train top players naturally stopped playing, or played far, far less than they did. Now there are consistent tours with promises of a large one and you're seeing most of the strong guys coming back out to play.
BW has stabilized at a point significantly lower than it was during the progaming era, and the sponsorship support just isn't likely to be there for substantial expansion - the scene is strongly bankrolled by Sonic right now, and that isn't sustainable. It's fair to worry about it's future, though I'd call it more so "weak" than "dying." Because what we have now is sure better than the near-death BW we had after progaming died.
On August 18 2015 09:09 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Nina, Scan is perfectly fit for playing in the cups as long as all koreans are allowed to play imo. But certainly not for a foreigner tournament that mentions the word foreign/foreigner in every second sentence. Rewatch Wallace's art and enjoy the day/night ahead. In my eyes opening a thread, angling foreigner competition/money and reviewing a translation does not make him that worthy of a contributor to receive such a privillege. I agree though the 2v2 iccup laddering might be considered correctly as a significant contribution but who knows. If we could find 20+ 2v2 players openly stating that without his focused help they would be far worse in 2v2 then i will be interested in a discussion. Probably the very first thing i said in the very first post of mine on the issue was related to lag. Three cups later the privilliged korean supposed contributor lectured just about every foreigner that dared to speak about lag vs him, with a very specific tone that i could not qualify as mannered, describing players as unwilling to pay low monthly fees for internet or describing whole nations as undeveloped. How do you feel about that?
How do I feel about that? It's not my show to run. I merely was pointing out that Scan met the criteria put forth by the TL staff for participants who were born in Korea. If it were up to me, and I was Queen of The Tournaments, I would actually probably not allow people born in Korea. But it's not my decision to make.
I very much respect you, Eon and Wallace, both as players and people, so I listen to what you have to say about the matter. I don't think Scan has always been that tactful when communicating his feelings to others, so it may come across as arrogance or that he's being bad-mannered. I don't ever think that someone's manners should bar them from playing though, unless they say that Australia is part of Asia. That's the only thing I will not tolerate.
All jokes aside, you have every right to your opinion on the matter. I'm not gonna be like "Don't say this" or "Say that instead". The only thing I can really say is that under the current rules, Scan is allowed to play.
On August 18 2015 11:00 dRaW wrote: @Nina, you are wrong. Scan will win 98%+ TvZ BoX vs Sziky for cash. (I can count the TvZ he lost to him in defiler tour on 1 hand)
Didn't realize you had a hand with 15 fingers.
What was it that I said? Oh right
On August 18 2015 06:04 ninazerg wrote: I know Scan has won more games overall in more recent competition, but that does not diminish how dominant Sziky has been over ALL of the top-level competition.
I said that Sziky has been able to beat every other foreigner consistently. Head-to-head with Scan in tournaments with money, their record isn't anywhere nearly as lopsided as "98%+" (which makes no sense... what's the plus for? Why 98%? How did you come up with this number?)
I'm not even saying Sziky will beat Scan, because it'd be stupid to predict the future based on past results, I'm just saying you're going out of your way to go "NO UR WRONG" when I didn't say anything wrong. And your beard looks stupid.
You suck at brood war. You don't understand the game. You ALWAYS pick fights you can't win. Check those games Sziky vs Scan, he played OFF-RACE against Sziky and STILL wins. Show me 15 ZvT where Sziky beats Scan, I want to see them.
On August 18 2015 15:55 dRaW wrote: Nina let me tell you something...
You suck at brood war. You don't understand the game. You ALWAYS pick fights you can't win. Check those games Sziky vs Scan, he played OFF-RACE against Sziky and STILL wins. Show me 15 ZvT where Sziky beats Scan, I want to see them.
On August 18 2015 11:00 dRaW wrote: I would deeply appreciate it if you guys rotated a NEW ACTIVE caster with Sayle every week and had them also cast other things. I feel like if you really want BW to grow then you need to get Sayle off the monopoly of followers. Whenever I watch L_Master or another cast (even previously in Gambit Cup, etc) they would have a third or less of the viewers that Sayle has for any particular event, maybe even a smaller portion if it was a large cup.
So now Sayle is killing foreign BW because he's the one that draws the most viewers? I don't think so. This is about people not being interested in low-level games full of very visible errors (compared to Koreans). The people you're talking about are people watching Sayle for Sayle regardless of/despite the games. He's not even casting the games on his channel. Don't get me wrong, we've seen some enjoyable games but that is what it comes down to. And I'm not saying players are somehow obliged to change that. It's just something that we'll have to learn to work with as people get older.
On the other hand, the one thing foreigner tours have going for them is people knowing the players more intimately. But if all they get to see is them flaming one another and anyone in sight, blaming anyone and anything they can think of, then go figure. When was the last tour that wasn't tainted by drama? I'm sure rus_brain can't wait to sponsor another tour seeing the reactions. He actually can't but that's because he's a crazy guy (in a very good sense). We're a community of grownups but I doubt an outsider could tell. Sure, some drama can be fun but it's only entertaining to watch Julia whine about everything for so long. We say we'll revisit things in a couple of tours and what do we get? Players storming off saying how nothing will change and how disappointed he is in the admins. And of course 50 more pages of people repeating themselves in a struggle to find new ways of insulting Scan and the organizers. How is anyone supposed to look up to people acting like that? Eon you may have not thrown those games but you said a week earlier that you'd rather just gg instead of playing Scan so wonder why your epic rush may have been misinterpreted...
I'm not putting all the blame on the players but if we had more figures like Drone, bakuryu or Zaraki then things would be easier. Of course this isn't the one problem and the ultimate solution to everything. But it's something everyone should take a moment to think about. Of course this includes us as the organizers. Some things could have been handled better. Maybe this blog also?
Personally for me, the Scan witch hunt was the most disappointing thing to witness. It's one thing to voice your opinion on the matter and another to belittle, discredit and flame another player and member of the community just because he decided to play in something he was allowed in. If that's the kind of sportsmanship you're hoping the fans will get hooked on then things probably won't be getting any better.
On August 18 2015 15:55 dRaW wrote: Nina let me tell you something...
You suck at brood war. You don't understand the game. You ALWAYS pick fights you can't win.
(defiler chat quote)It's entertaining though, all these noob who don't play complain to the gamers
On August 17 2015 21:08 dRaW wrote: I would give Jaehoon like a c/c+ rating for his performance, Hero a c-/c and the terrans failing grades... Seems like both of them couldn't follow standard build orders without any threat or pressure from the opponents, then rolled over and died.
So you are super duper qualified to make judgements then? you are best foreigner? you can beat c+ rank fish players, Scan, Bisu, Mind all of them consistently? you play terran proficiently to shoot down Last and Bishop (both actually wayyyyy better than you.)
Then going on to insult Nina and Sayle who has made effort to rope in and get new players interested in BW...
noob calling others noobs, kek. thanks for your efforts to keep BW alive.
On August 17 2015 21:08 dRaW wrote: I would give Jaehoon like a c/c+ rating for his performance, Hero a c-/c and the terrans failing grades... Seems like both of them couldn't follow standard build orders without any threat or pressure from the opponents, then rolled over and died.
So you are super duper qualified to make judgements then? you are best foreigner? you can beat c+ rank fish players, Scan, Bisu, Mind all of them consistently? you play terran proficiently to shoot down Last and Bishop (both actually wayyyyy better than you.)
Then going on to insult Nina and Sayle who has made effort to rope in and get new players interested in BW...
noob calling others noobs, kek. thanks for your efforts to keep BW alive.
Come on guys is not that hard to understand. Its not that hard for me at least, let me train to explain how it works for me. When i was a D player i knew nothing about the game so when a guy who was D+ C B or A tried to teach me something I was more than happy to listen what he had to tell me. And so on. Nowadays, with that mindset I've reached the green ranks and that has been possible because I understood that I needed to listen what people who was higher rank than me had to tell, I realized that they were higher rank than me because their understanding of the game was better so when a guy with a better rank than me talks I still shut up and try to understand what they are saying and why, I don't get mad because I don't understand what they are saying. We can still argue about the way everyone express their opinions.
Please probemicro Draw has been a top foreigner player for a while now, as a player you should know who you are trying to teach. And did he really insulted sayle? I don't see where he does that, can you tell me so I can kill him?
Please probemicro Draw has been a top foreigner player for a while now, as a player you should know who you are trying to teach. And did he really insulted sayle? I don't see where he does that, can you tell me so I can kill him?
Yeah Draw the GREAT foreigner player has reached an OSL finals beating TBLS along the way to earn my utmost respect. playing top drawer games both macro and cheese to put Bisu, Stork, Free etc to utter shame. wow.
then..."HOLY FUK ITS SCAN BAN HIM" all your great foreigners shiver and cower before the mighty Scan. Scan who is basically almost a nobody in the korean scene.
And i am not teaching him anything game related, merely highlighting his hilarious egoistic attitude, commenting and judging and shitting on better players than him. just like how he accuses "D ranks" of judging and shitting on foreign players for not practicing. "I would give Jaehoon like a c/c+ rating for his performance, Hero a c-/c and the terrans failing grades... Seems like both of them couldn't follow standard build orders without any threat or pressure from the opponents, then rolled over and died."
and if you can't see where he insult sayle maybe you should read up a bit more before hastily commenting with more "D rank fuck off" comments?
Please probemicro Draw has been a top foreigner player for a while now, as a player you should know who you are trying to teach. And did he really insulted sayle? I don't see where he does that, can you tell me so I can kill him?
Yeah Draw the GREAT foreigner player has reached an OSL finals beating TBLS along the way to earn my utmost respect. playing top drawer games both macro and cheese to put Bisu, Stork, Free etc to utter shame. wow.
then..."HOLY FUK ITS SCAN BAN HIM" all your great foreigners shiver and cower before the mighty Scan. Scan who is basically almost a nobody in the korean scene.
And i am not teaching him anything game related, merely highlighting his hilarious egoistic attitude, commenting and judging and shitting on better players than him. just like how he accuses "D ranks" of judging and shitting on foreign players for not practicing. "I would give Jaehoon like a c/c+ rating for his performance, Hero a c-/c and the terrans failing grades... Seems like both of them couldn't follow standard build orders without any threat or pressure from the opponents, then rolled over and died."
and if you can't see where he insult sayle maybe you should read up a bit more before hastily commenting with more "D rank fuck off" comments?
you are totally interpreting Draw words incorrectly.and actually insulting a great player,tell me from the golden age what player actually beat BiSU Jaedong or Flash ? i bet u dont even know who,i gonna tell you. RoX.Advokate won vs Jaedong in a wcg
then you proly didnt even know that,and i actually i can tell you how this happened,Jaedong was hanging out with the russian team the night before and playing with them lot of games,so A2 in this night understood what strategy could work vs jaedong. here is the progamer leta doing a similar build to beat jaedong ,this thread is a disgrace with the author acting very inmature,like a girl when someone stoled his barbie...
On August 18 2015 11:00 dRaW wrote: I would deeply appreciate it if you guys rotated a NEW ACTIVE caster with Sayle every week and had them also cast other things. I feel like if you really want BW to grow then you need to get Sayle off the monopoly of followers. Whenever I watch L_Master or another cast (even previously in Gambit Cup, etc) they would have a third or less of the viewers that Sayle has for any particular event, maybe even a smaller portion if it was a large cup.
So now Sayle is killing foreign BW because he's the one that draws the most viewers? I don't think so. This is about people not being interested in low-level games full of very visible errors (compared to Koreans). The people you're talking about are people watching Sayle for Sayle regardless of/despite the games. He's not even casting the games on his channel. Don't get me wrong, we've seen some enjoyable games but that is what it comes down to. And I'm not saying players are somehow obliged to change that. It's just something that we'll have to learn to work with as people get older.
On the other hand, the one thing foreigner tours have going for them is people knowing the players more intimately. But if all they get to see is them flaming one another and anyone in sight, blaming anyone and anything they can think of, then go figure. When was the last tour that wasn't tainted by drama? I'm sure rus_brain can't wait to sponsor another tour seeing the reactions. He actually can't but that's because he's a crazy guy (in a very good sense). We're a community of grownups but I doubt an outsider could tell. Sure, some drama can be fun but it's only entertaining to watch Julia whine about everything for so long. We say we'll revisit things in a couple of tours and what do we get? Players storming off saying how nothing will change and how disappointed he is in the admins. And of course 50 more pages of people repeating themselves in a struggle to find new ways of insulting Scan and the organizers. How is anyone supposed to look up to people acting like that? Eon you may have not thrown those games but you said a week earlier that you'd rather just gg instead of playing Scan so wonder why your epic rush may have been misinterpreted...
I'm not putting all the blame on the players but if we had more figures like Drone, bakuryu or Zaraki then things would be easier. Of course this isn't the one problem and the ultimate solution to everything. But it's something everyone should take a moment to think about. Of course this includes us as the organizers. Some things could have been handled better. Maybe this blog also?
Personally for me, the Scan witch hunt was the most disappointing thing to witness. It's one thing to voice your opinion on the matter and another to belittle, discredit and flame another player and member of the community just because he decided to play in something he was allowed in. If that's the kind of sportsmanship you're hoping the fans will get hooked on then things probably won't be getting any better.
yeah continue to harp on your past glories or whatever. Nada and July harping on their past glories has helped them beat everyone on Fish now and reached SSL finals right? They are not stuck struggling at D/C rank at fish right??
yeah you foreigners are so damnnnnn good right? why all the Scan whine then? all those boasts and ego are for naught? muh lag, fuk admins, fuk casters? so many excuses
"I can beat top korean players 1 times out of 20 you know!! ... OMG BAN SCAN CANNOT WIN WAH"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA go and insult others more, call them noobshit,noobasik, D ranks whatever, helps your argument so much more i suppose
yeah continue to harp on your past glories or whatever. Nada and July harping on their past glories has helped them beat everyone on Fish now and reached SSL finals right? They are not stuck struggling at D/C rank at fish right??
yeah you foreigners are so damnnnnn good right? why all the Scan whine then? all those boasts and ego are for naught? muh lag, fuk admins, fuk casters? so many excuses
"I can beat top korean players 1 times out of 20 you know!! ... OMG BAN SCAN CANNOT WIN WAH"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA go and insult others more, call them noobshit,noobasik, D ranks whatever, helps your argument so much more i suppose
What are you talking about maybe take a break you are out of your mind
yeah continue to harp on your past glories or whatever. Nada and July harping on their past glories has helped them beat everyone on Fish now and reached SSL finals right? They are not stuck struggling at D/C rank at fish right??
yeah you foreigners are so damnnnnn good right? why all the Scan whine then? all those boasts and ego are for naught? muh lag, fuk admins, fuk casters? so many excuses
"I can beat top korean players 1 times out of 20 you know!! ... OMG BAN SCAN CANNOT WIN WAH"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA go and insult others more, call them noobshit,noobasik, D ranks whatever, helps your argument so much more i suppose
What are you talking about maybe take a break you are out of your mind
"omg this guy is actually right maybe I should just insult him anyway. and post a meme picture in the process. lolol"
anyway im outta here, sometimes i like the occasional shitstorms, thanks for providing it. Rejoice with the upcoming Scan ban/handicap, you all need it.
yeah continue to harp on your past glories or whatever. Nada and July harping on their past glories has helped them beat everyone on Fish now and reached SSL finals right? They are not stuck struggling at D/C rank at fish right??
yeah you foreigners are so damnnnnn good right? why all the Scan whine then? all those boasts and ego are for naught? muh lag, fuk admins, fuk casters? so many excuses
"I can beat top korean players 1 times out of 20 you know!! ... OMG BAN SCAN CANNOT WIN WAH"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA go and insult others more, call them noobshit,noobasik, D ranks whatever, helps your argument so much more i suppose
What are you talking about maybe take a break you are out of your mind
"omg this guy is actually right maybe I should just insult him anyway. and post a meme picture in the process. lolol"
anyway im outta here, sometimes i like the occasional shitstorms, thanks for providing it. Rejoice with the upcoming Scan ban/handicap, you all need it.
Plz post here where im insulting anyone Wow man you are incredible,most of us asked to LET GOSU KOREANS PLAYERS TO PLAY IN THE TOURNEY NOT JUST A F*CKING ONE TO OWN US OVER AND OVER.What are u talking about ?
Probemicro, man, wtf... You're talking to A/A+ players, they're among the best foreigners there are and will ever be in the future at this point, but of course there are many Fish players that eat ICCUP A ranks for breakfast, Scan being one of them. How is that not clear?
Alright, stepping in a bit as Probemicro was very badly interpreting people's comments and making an already tense ongoing conversation, worse.
I have been on the periphery organization-wise, but I wish people had taken a slightly longer view of things. I appreciate the measured responses of Drone- and I was going to say draw (but I'm not sure if that reply to nina was serious or sarcastic)- and others who have posted measured responses, whether they agreed or disagreed. The value of a wait and see approach, I don't think was ever fully appreciated and many intemperate responses were fired off in the very first TLC, setting the stage. A little more patience (considering there are so many TLC's planned) would have gone a long way.
Viewing from the sidelines, I think the most irritating thing for me is the pernicious attitude by players, holding TL organizers in contempt as though they are FPS gamers that intruded upon their precious BW, having never played and RTS in their life. While no doubt personally satisfying to falsely claim TL organizers have never played Starcraft, it does nothing for an argument for the exclusion of Scan.
I can understand why things are heated now as heated words beget heated words, but I don't know why it began so angrily and with such insults. (And in that vein- I wish you (xkcd) hadn't posted this blog as I don't think this helps matters- except perhaps the Drone post.) I quite frankly find the whole situation rather disheartening.
This "gotcha" post was highly inappropriate, but in the end it is proof of the attitude of the staff toward this matter, which they have been denying in the past. It's only one member coming out but it is apparent that he isn't alone based on the other posts.
Someone who is truly objective, less egotistical and more level headed would've at least talked to eon before making a "gotcha" post.
On August 18 2015 01:23 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: hmmm,hey Mr Amazingxcd i have news for you.i have contributed more for bw than you(with games,with cast,helping players,teaching them,sending replays,sharing replays,playing in many non money tournaments show matches and leagues.but actually i also sponsored by my self my team to play in teamleagues,its been me the the only one that always pay for iFU to be in the money teamleagues,oh wait also i sponsored some defiler tours,some minitours,hell i even donate for streamers... . now cuz your bw lvl is terrible that you arent abble to see a shit from what u looking in the games i gonna help you,in my series vs Scan the first game was 12h vs 9p,if you didnt know 9p is the hard counter for 12h from here everything ok right ? now if the 9p player is skiping speed and goes for lair is not hard counter but is actually game over,at the lvl we are it is,i dont know in D ranks maybe u can keep playing.
2 game:This game was a zvt i was doing 2h muta,as you see 2h muta is a build where u need to contain the terran player killing his first army very fast and keep the pressure in the game.Well it happens that the latency was so bad that my micro muta was totally off,everytime i tryed to attack the game made a lag spike and the mutalisk bug and didnt attack.They were moving like valkiries.now if u dont understand this go play 1v1 vs computers and make some valkiries and try to control it,im saying this cuz you are big ignorant in the game that is spoking himself without any knowledge.
in the third game i made a move that i tend to do very often in my stream,sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt,with the bad latency i was having in the game there was not pleasure for me to play more than necesary vs scan,i saw one opportunity i took it,it failed GG.
if i remember well Bisudagger was hosting some kind of clanwar of 3 players vs 3 players all kill style it was Cryoc Dsaqwe and me, at the end cryoc all killed all the oponents,and me and Dsaqwe didnt even ask to get that prize..
Now i dont understand how you are not still banned from this forum.i find it pathetic you insulting others players,Plz come to Trutacz Lan i will like to fix the problems with you in real ok? no forums insults is for pathetic people...
pd:dont come with you are doing alot with snipealot streams.you cant actually do a sh*t,it is alexandous the one that does everything and u need wait for him,thats why snipealots streams are now only showing Nada -_-
On the bright side, I enjoyed watching the advokate game and there were a few good posts.
You shouldn't call it a foreigner tournament hosted to help the foreigner scene and then call a foreigner greedy/unwilling to practise/selfish for wanting it to be a foreigner tournament in the first place.
Remember, the most hyprocritical thing here is the organisers making an exception a non-foreigner in for being a good buddy to the foreigners, and then talking as if the foreigners are being insubordinate and ungrateful for not being cool about that exception.
- Letting a man play in WNBA is wrong if you still want to call it WNBA, no matter how much the man has helped women basketball.
- Letting a pro compete in the NCAA is wrong if you still want to call it a college basketball tournament, no matter how much the pro has contributed to the scene.
- Using cancer donations for funding polio vaccines is wrong if you still want to advertise yourself as a cancer fund, no matter how many more utilitarian lives you think you can save with the same amount of money spent on cancer research.
I'm talking about deception.
All of it is made worse if you then call the said women, college basketball players and the cancer researchers greedy, selfish, asking them to work harder, celebrating a "gotcha" moment when the said women, college basketball players or cancer researchers made an apparent blunder. Worse of all, is the outburst and attempt at satire
"The attitude you women have disgusts me I am trying to help you." "You are making a mockery out of the NCAA" "You are killing cancer research yourself. Sickening."
Please remember, you have lost the moral high ground when you have made an exception and bent your main premise to fit that exception for, no matter the justifications.
I still believe that the staff are sincere in supporting the community, but the friendship with scan has complicated things, along with their ego.
On August 18 2015 03:33 Djzapz wrote: At the end of the day, Starcraft is entirely capable of dying out on its own and I don't think that the toxicity is coming out of no where, it has a source in the context. I for one don't believe that negativity is the cause of SCBW's decline, the causal link is the other way around. SCBW is declining naturally during the convergence of its various enemies: new OSes which don't properly support it, its fall into obsolescence in a world where simple and user friendliness becomes the norm, among other things. The toxicity is the result of this decline, and perhaps it expedites the process but it's not causing it.
There seems to be an awful lot of this sentiment around that BW is in some manner dying. This baffles me. BW is absolutely flourishing and gaining momentum since 2012. There is justification for serious concern about new blood, but for anyone that reads this forum it should be readily apparent that BW has only been growing stronger and stronger since it suffered the brutal blows of being dropped from KeSPA and Korean TV.
Now, if you want to talk about that tiny microcosm of BW that is foreign BW, there is an argument to be made that BW is dying. And to some extent that is inevitable, KR may prove to be the exception, but outside of that I cannot envision a situation in which you'll get consistent enough new faces playing BW to match the pace of those who do leave. Given the attitudes of people toward gaming nowadays, the fact that BW is an older game, the decreasing level of compatibility with new OS, I cannot see what event or change would lead to sufficient interest in playing BW amongst new players to draw them in at a rate faster than older players will leave.
On the short term, foreign BW has been more asleep than it is dead/dying. Nobody was willing to organize tours, and without that incentive many of the top guys stopped playing. If there is never a good forum for competition you lose the carrot to work hard on a game. BW may be fun to play, but to play many hours a day seriously to improve is probably not as fun; and certainly has a much greater time cost that must come from other parts of a persons life. Without any purpose or motivation to train top players naturally stopped playing, or played far, far less than they did. Now there are consistent tours with promises of a large one and you're seeing most of the strong guys coming back out to play.
Well I guess to many people stagnation is equivalent to death because either it establishes a niche which has little to no value to those outside of it, or it ends up being withered down. I remember when I watched BW and would wake up at 4AM to watch the OSL finals, now it just doesn't feel the same. I know there are people playing BW but it's not the same huge phenomenon as before, with all the hype and all the stars that I remember. I don't know if the game has been dying, to be honest I kind of drew a parallel between SC2 and BW which may have been clumsy of me.
Neither game is "dying" because software is famously incapable of death, but part of what I enjoy out of a game is the community and the excitement it draws. Can BW still get me to jump on my chair and cheer for someone like Flash? Can it still make me flip the fuck out on LR threads?
I'd like to see it... That being said, I still find BW games between people I've never heard to be more exciting than anything SC2 has to offer. I still think it's difficult for a game that's 17 years old to continue to attract enough people to build hype and have serious orgs around them. And I understand that it's "criticizeable" as a position since many purists will say you should enjoy the game for the love of the game and not for what's around it... Yet I have to say that the heart wants what the heart wants
On August 18 2015 20:58 JieXian wrote: This "gotcha" post was highly inappropriate, but in the end it is proof of the attitude of the staff toward this matter, which they have been denying in the past. It's only one member coming out but it is apparent that he isn't alone based on the other posts.
Someone who is truly objective, less egotistical and more level headed would've at least talked to eon before making a "gotcha" post.
On the bright side, I enjoyed watching the advokate game and there were a few good posts.
You shouldn't call it a foreigner tournament hosted to help the foreigner scene and then call a foreigner greedy/unwilling to practise/selfish for wanting it to be a foreigner tournament in the first place.
Remember, the most hyprocritical thing here is the organisers making an exception a non-foreigner in for being a good buddy to the foreigners, and then talking as if the foreigners are being insubordinate and ungrateful for not being cool about that exception.
- Letting a man play in WNBA is wrong if you still want to call it WNBA, no matter how much the man has helped women basketball.
- Letting a pro compete in the NCAA is wrong if you still want to call it a college basketball tournament, no matter how much the pro has contributed to the scene.
- Using cancer donations for funding polio vaccines is wrong if you still want to advertise yourself as a cancer fund, no matter how many more utilitarian lives you think you can save with the same amount of money spent on cancer research.
All of it is made worse if you then call the said women, college basketball players and the cancer researchers greedy, selfish, asking them to work harder, celebrating a "gotcha" moment when the said women, college basketball players or cancer researchers made an apparent blunder. Worse of all, is the outburst and attempt at satire
"The attitude you women have disgusts me I am trying to help you." "You are making a mockery out of the NCAA" "You are killing cancer research yourself. Sickening."
Please remember, you have lost the moral high ground when you have made an exception and bent your main premise to fit that exception for, no matter the justifications.
Your post makes me angry for two reasons.
First, I don't like how you twist Amazingxkcd's blog into something it is not. His blog does not represent the staff or the organizers but expresses his personal opinion. He even explicitly noted: "this article is the expressed opinion of Amazingxkcd only and does not constitute to be the official opinion of Teamliquid.net, its staff, or any of its constituent" Reproaches like can prevent people to express their opinions freely because people mistake their opinions for that of the whole team/organization they happen to be part of. Forums are made to discuss things.
Second, who are you to tell others they have lost moral ground? You accuse the admins to not be neutral but to be akin to favoritism. What the fk? They tried their best to have rules that do not exclude anyone who is PART OF THE FOREIGNER scene. And Scan is part of our scene.
On August 18 2015 20:58 JieXian wrote: This "gotcha" post was highly inappropriate, but in the end it is proof of the attitude of the staff toward this matter, which they have been denying in the past. It's only one member coming out but it is apparent that he isn't alone based on the other posts.
Someone who is truly objective, less egotistical and more level headed would've at least talked to eon before making a "gotcha" post.
On the bright side, I enjoyed watching the advokate game and there were a few good posts.
You shouldn't call it a foreigner tournament hosted to help the foreigner scene and then call a foreigner greedy/unwilling to practise/selfish for wanting it to be a foreigner tournament in the first place.
Remember, the most hyprocritical thing here is the organisers making an exception a non-foreigner in for being a good buddy to the foreigners, and then talking as if the foreigners are being insubordinate and ungrateful for not being cool about that exception.
- Letting a man play in WNBA is wrong if you still want to call it WNBA, no matter how much the man has helped women basketball.
- Letting a pro compete in the NCAA is wrong if you still want to call it a college basketball tournament, no matter how much the pro has contributed to the scene.
- Using cancer donations for funding polio vaccines is wrong if you still want to advertise yourself as a cancer fund, no matter how many more utilitarian lives you think you can save with the same amount of money spent on cancer research.
All of it is made worse if you then call the said women, college basketball players and the cancer researchers greedy, selfish, asking them to work harder, celebrating a "gotcha" moment when the said women, college basketball players or cancer researchers made an apparent blunder. Worse of all, is the outburst and attempt at satire
"The attitude you women have disgusts me I am trying to help you." "You are making a mockery out of the NCAA" "You are killing cancer research yourself. Sickening."
Please remember, you have lost the moral high ground when you have made an exception and bent your main premise to fit that exception for, no matter the justifications.
Your post makes me angry for two reasons.
First, I don't like how you twist Amazingxkcd's blog into something it is not. His blog does not represent the staff or the organizers but expresses his personal opinion. He even explicitly noted: "this article is the expressed opinion of Amazingxkcd only and does not constitute to be the official opinion of Teamliquid.net, its staff, or any of its constituent" Reproaches like can prevent people to express their opinions freely because people mistake their opinions for that of the whole team/organization they happen to be part of. Forums are made to discuss things.
Second, who are you to tell others they have lost moral ground? You accuse the admins to not be neutral but to be akin to favoritism. What the fk? They tried their best to have rules that do not exclude anyone who is PART OF THE FOREIGNER scene. And Scan is part of our scene.
1) I was also including the other posts from the staff in the other topics.
2)dont be angry because you didn't comprehend my stand.
Basically I'm happy with scan playing as long as they didn't pretend to be supporting foreigners. Then again I guess things change once it's defined by a foreign SCENE instead.
So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic.
On August 18 2015 04:54 BulgarianToss wrote: @Cele
You do realise that since we are the better players we understand the game better and for that reason we can give you a better insight into the problems we face playing against Scan. Do you guys really think we care about the stupid 50$ and bother to write huge posts only because we are greedy assholes? Can you stop for one second and think clearly that the reason is obviously something more and it is simple - the fact that his participation is biased and unfair and it produces in-game problems that happen to favour him even more on our level of play.
i realize that. However you are comparing two different things. If we are talking about actual ingame stuff, i will gladly listen to all players who are better then me. But in this case, we are not talking about ingame stuff, we are talking about an issue that falls into the duties of Tournament Organizers and Tournament Admins. There is a very good reason a decision like this should be made by TO's and not by players, let me elaborate:
In football, who decides if a penalty is given? Do the players decide? No. THe referees decide. You could argue that Ronaldo or Messi play better football then the referee and should thus decide if a penalty is given. There are two good reasons they should not:
a) players are biased: this is not meant to insult or disrespect, but in a situation that affects your game, you want the best for you (ban scan) and not the best for the tournament itself as a whole. Messi doesn't get to decide if he was fouled and a penalty should be given because he is biased. A referee on the other hand is impartial and decides to the best of his abilities and training. Sadly, there is no "training" for tournament organizers, but a good TO has a lot of experience in this matters and this gives him a good lookout on the problem
b) a decision made by players can not be respected as impartial: Kind of continues my argument, but if players decide if scan should play or not, to the viewer/other players this tour loses credibility, because it feels like the decision is made for one's own good.
Of course a good TO ask's top players about their opinion on some matters, for instance the TO could have asked players about paranoid android in the first place, but they don't blindly follow their opinion. If i ask a top foreigner and about map XY i get three different answers.
Closing or analogy, what is happening in this drama is this: the referee has given a penalty and players (not all, but many) start swarming him, cursing him. Instead of handing out red cards, he changes his decision. This is wrong on two levels: First, these players clearly don't respect the TO's and admins, which is a basic principle of every sport. Secondly it's unfair to Scan. you upset players are many, he is alone. Just that you are more, doesn't make your point right, if he starts complaining now if he get's banned, his voice will not be heard/whouted down.
Every sport needs impartial persons, who make difficult decisions. Accepting those decisions is the first ground rule of competition, you guys seem to have forgotten that.
On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote: So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic.
If you do this then we need consider what exactly a member of tl community means,have a tl account?make threads about afreeca/ sc2 / counter strike or fitness section? Post in a active weekly basis? If this is the case you can keep scan with traslations and ban all the rest of the players since very few actually care to do things i noted. So stratos what it is? If the only you need is to create a tl account im pretty sure you can recruit some korean gosus right?
I understand where you're coming from, and I mostly agree that the players should respect official decisions, but there are several problems with that.
The foreign BW scene has never operated as such and this has never been said about any decision that's been disrespected in the past.
Also, it's not about the money, it's about getting crushed by someone who you feel shouldn't even be in the event. This type of drama happened in DRTL and DRIT, no one was playing for money (I was one of the biggest advocates for either calling it D/C ranks TL or removing the C- ++ from the tour). - On the other hand, your example about Messi ~ It's all about the money.
Korean BW has the "our way or the highway", but they can do that (at least in the past) because they actually have the funding to back it and the players to replace the current ones with.
Football is a bad example to represent the problem we have here,as u see one of the guys that was part of this project called me moron and other insults also promoting i was throwing matches cuz his bw lvl is so bad that he doesnt understand anything in the game, to be a referee u need to know the book rules and the ground rules,is not the case here, and football is a terrible example.
I understand where you're coming from, and I mostly agree that the players should respect official decisions, but there are several problems with that.
The foreign BW scene has never operated as such and this has never been said about any decision that's been disrespected in the past.
Also, it's not about the money, it's about getting crushed by someone who you feel shouldn't even be in the event. This type of drama happened in DRTL and DRIT, no one was playing for money (I was one of the biggest advocates for either calling it D/C ranks TL or removing the C- ++ from the tour). - On the other hand, your example about Messi ~ It's all about the money.
Korean BW has the "our way or the highway", but they can do that (at least in the past) because they actually have the funding to back it and the players to replace the current ones with.
i wasn't talking money, money adds to the problem but you also need referees at amateur level sports. Some ingame decisions are controversial and you need an impartial person who is respected to settle those, in short a referee. It's a problem of foreign bw this isn't recognized this way i agree.
On August 18 2015 11:00 dRaW wrote: Also, I know that nobody really reads these posts and everyone just waits their turn to write something nonsensical but I would deeply appreciate it if you guys rotated a NEW ACTIVE caster with Sayle every week and had them also cast other things. I feel like if you really want BW to grow then you need to get Sayle off the monopoly of followers. Whenever I watch L_Master or another cast (even previously in Gambit Cup, etc) they would have a third or less of the viewers that Sayle has for any particular event, maybe even a smaller portion if it was a large cup.
Maybe talk with ICCup.Face as he organizes the A/B tours and showmatches with casters and it could be good for them.
I don't think co-casting is really necessary, though it does help. If you look at past examples... Both L_Master and Hacklebeast would be as popular (or nearly) as Sayle right now if they had kept casting consistently. Unfortunately, neither of them do. Unfortunately, recently, there has been a lack of events to really allow that to happen again, but if more events come up, casters just need to show the passion and dedication that Sayle did when he was starting. Does anyone remember the ISL1 marathon casts? Did Sayle even sleep on those weekends? There are other examples (Nation Wars) that were like 14 hrs + in one cast... I'm not sure how many people are willing to do that and how many people actually want to develop into that status of caster. It requires a lot of work to build that and maintain it.
It also helped that Sayle streamed his ladder games and that he was able to improve at ladder over the course of that stream. So, if anyone has the dedication to do this, I have no doubt they'll gain that popularity, it's just really hard to find... More so than the opportunities to cast are.
Football is a bad example to represent the problem we have here,as u see one of the guys that was part of this project called me moron and other insults also promoting i was throwing matches cuz his bw lvl is so bad that he doesnt understand anything in the game, to be a referee u need to know the book rules and the ground rules,is not the case here, and football is a terrible example.
If we leave XKCD and his rage blog here out, all the TO'S have shown what you ask for i think. they know what they do and why. You do not agree, but as i pointed out decisions are not made by players for a good reason. I was explaining to wallace, why i think the argument "you are bad at Starcraft, you should shut up" is not a good argument. He and you don't post that way, but many people do. And one should listen when top players teach about ingame stuff, but this case is different as i explained.
On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote: So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic.
If you do this then we need consider what exactly a member of tl community means,have a tl account?make threads about afreeca/ sc2 / counter strike or fitness section? Post in a active weekly basis? If this is the case you can keep scan with traslations and ban all the rest of the players since very few actually care to do things i noted. So stratos what it is? If the only you need is to create a tl account im pretty sure you can recruit some korean gosus right?
Okay close your eyes. Take a deep breath. Think about what makes up a member of our foreigner BW community (TL, Iccup, psistorm, reps.ru, defiler etc.) apart from one's nationality. Somewhere apparently deep inside, we all know what that is and we all know Scan fits that. He's the exemplary average TL member with some contributions to his name.
Yes, recruiting a few korean gosus would probably not be very difficult. But hey, I'm not aware of any that are part of our community - if they were, I wouldn't need to go recruit them, right? Should any chose to join our ranks then sure, I would see them in the same way I see Scan, as another TLer. But I can't fathom a reason for which I should go hunt on fish to make sure you're not upset that you're being beaten by Scan only instead of 5 extra random fish users. I guess everyone has their fantasies but I'm into other stuff (kimchi)
On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote: So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic.
If you do this then we need consider what exactly a member of tl community means,have a tl account?make threads about afreeca/ sc2 / counter strike or fitness section? Post in a active weekly basis? If this is the case you can keep scan with traslations and ban all the rest of the players since very few actually care to do things i noted. So stratos what it is? If the only you need is to create a tl account im pretty sure you can recruit some korean gosus right?
Okay close your eyes. Take a deep breath. Think about what makes up a member of our foreigner BW community (TL, Iccup, psistorm, reps.ru, defiler etc.) apart from one's nationality. Somewhere apparently deep inside, we all know what that is and we all know Scan fits that. He's the exemplary average TL member with some contributions to his name.
Yes, recruiting a few korean gosus would probably not be very difficult. But hey, I'm not aware of any that are part of our community - if they were, I wouldn't need to go recruit them, right? Should any chose to join our ranks then sure, I would see them in the same way I see Scan, as another TLer. But I can't fathom a reason for which I should go hunt on fish to make sure you're not upset that you're being beaten by Scan only instead of 5 extra random fish users. I guess everyone has their fantasies but I'm into other stuff (kimchi)
Stratos are you the mind behind all this ?,first it was a foreigner tournament,then changed the rules to allow Scan,now u talking about Tl community all of sudden i asked you what it means u instantly added every bw community left,so tell me if iccup is also part of this why the koreans in iccup playing showmatches for us the foreigners arent allowed to play in TLS ?i saw mvpwisdom asking in The Legacy channel and the answer was that it was a tournament for foreigners,this is all so complex that is better just to stop lol....
I don't find the situation very complex but I will admit I'm not even sure what you're asking. As for other Koreans asking to play in the tour, just refer to the rules as you would otherwise. Who knows, maybe if they stated their case, they'd be allowed in. If all they do is join the legacy channel to ask like that then you can hardly give them a better answer.
On August 18 2015 23:22 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: first it was a foreigner tournament,then changed the rules to allow Scan,now u talking about Tl community all of sudden i asked you what it means u instantly added every bw community left,so tell me if iccup is also part of this why the koreans in iccup playing showmatches for us the foreigners arent allowed to play in TLS ?i saw mvpwisdom asking in The Legacy channel and the answer was that it was a tournament for foreigners,this is all so complex that is better just to stop lol....
Do you have any evidence that supports that? It has always been a foreigner tournament AND non-foreigners who have contributed to the foreign scene/are part of it.
You make it look like they adjusted the rules after they had announced the details/the cups to let Scan play. That is not the case. They simply tried to formulate rules that did not exclude anybody who is part of us.
And concerning Stratos' post, I think you didn't understand it correctly.
The idea of excluding some players from tournaments because they are "unfairly good" is just wrong. There is no way to make the issues it brings go away. Even though in SC2 the Korean-foreigner gap is not as huge as in BW, it is still pretty... gaping, so people try the same thing and it only results in silly situations and arguments. So I am not very surprised that the BW scene suffers from the same problems.
The only way where you can reasonably forbid someone from competing for being too good is when you promote him to a higher league. Anything else is just taking competition and making it scripted entertainment like wrestling. Of course, you can pretend that it is still a competition, but you need to make up heaps of rules over other rules, so that you get to pick players that you want to have, but that doesn't make it any different. The posts where people evaluate other people on their actions and life choices to decalre them "sufficiently foreign" just make me sick - that has not only nothing to do with real competition, it is also just morally wrong (it really resembles the "personality checks" we had during communist dictatorship).
I used to have in my quote something along the lines of "do you want foreigner tournaments without koreans, or world without borders" and I stand by it. Judging people based on their race, nationality or even personal history is plan wrong and should be avoided at any circumstances.
In other news, I certainly like the idea of building up other casters. The difficulty is find that magical intersection of time and willingness, combined with solid bw knowledge and either a natural or developed caster's flow.
I also very much enjoyed L_master's casting, but I think it has been a long time sinse he has had the time (or perhaps urge) to cast consistently. It's a very demanding activity, so it's more surprising that we have workhorse Sayle, than that we don't have a whole bunch of Sayle's in the community, as he seems to be the exception.
On August 19 2015 02:44 Falling wrote: In other news, I certainly like the idea of building up other casters. The difficulty is find that magical intersection of time and willingness, combined with solid bw knowledge and either a natural or developed caster's flow.
Sayle was terrible at casting when he first started. Not polished as a caster of course, but also pretty poor knowledge of BW and made cringeworthy errors, i.e. mistaking the coach of a team for another team's coach. He improved a lot before he became the top BW caster of today's era, which is to say that dedication trumps skill here. Anyone who is dedicated enough to cast often and improve their gameplay will become a good caster eventually.
I see potential in maybe 5-6 of our semi-regulars, if only they were to become regulars.
On August 19 2015 02:44 Falling wrote: In other news, I certainly like the idea of building up other casters. The difficulty is find that magical intersection of time and willingness, combined with solid bw knowledge and either a natural or developed caster's flow.
I also very much enjoyed L_master's casting, but I think it has been a long time sense he has had the time (or perhaps urge) to cast consistently. It's a very demanding activity, so it's more surprising that we have workhorse Sayle, than that we don't have a whole bunch of Sayle's in the community, as he seems to be the exception.
Pretty much this. Casting is a heavy time commitment, especially with regular tours. That's easily a minimum of 3-4 hours per cast, with the potential to be much longer.
I'd love to cast more/consistently, but throw in working full time, 20 hours a week of cycling, and then some studying and it's hard to find time for consistent casting, especially with a variable schedule.
That said, I do hope to cast more than I have over the last year...which is basically not at all.
On August 18 2015 15:55 dRaW wrote: Nina let me tell you something...
You suck at brood war. You don't understand the game. You ALWAYS pick fights you can't win. Check those games Sziky vs Scan, he played OFF-RACE against Sziky and STILL wins. Show me 15 ZvT where Sziky beats Scan, I want to see them.
I really don't think I should've expected any less than a completely petulantly immature reply, because you're spilling your personal vitriol into an argument where you completely bungled your original post to me by glossing over my post.
I actually will make a small replay pack. I've already watched a bunch of ZvT games from Defiler where Sziky, does in fact, win. There is some ZvZ, but Sziky wins a majority of those. Unfortunately, because of broken links in Defiler Tours 11, 16, and 69, broken links on GG.net, and the fact that Scan only uploads his wins in 3-1 series' means you probably won't get as much masturbation material as you'd like.
On August 18 2015 15:55 dRaW wrote: Nina let me tell you something...
You suck at brood war. You don't understand the game. You ALWAYS pick fights you can't win. Check those games Sziky vs Scan, he played OFF-RACE against Sziky and STILL wins. Show me 15 ZvT where Sziky beats Scan, I want to see them.
I really don't think I should've expected any less than a completely petulantly immature reply, because you're spilling your personal vitriol into an argument where you completely bungled your original post to me by glossing over my post.
I actually will make a small replay pack. I've already watched a bunch of ZvT games from Defiler where Sziky, does in fact, win. There is some ZvZ, but Sziky wins a majority of those. Unfortunately, because of broken links in Defiler Tours 11, 16, and 69, broken links on GG.net, and the fact that Scan only uploads his wins in 3-1 series' means you probably won't get as much masturbation material as you'd like.
Are you two on a trial separation or realize you both main two different races? Return to sunshine and rainbows please.
On August 18 2015 15:55 dRaW wrote: Nina let me tell you something...
You suck at brood war. You don't understand the game. You ALWAYS pick fights you can't win. Check those games Sziky vs Scan, he played OFF-RACE against Sziky and STILL wins. Show me 15 ZvT where Sziky beats Scan, I want to see them.
completely petulantly
holy multiple adverbs batman
its adverbs in posts like this that are not killing Starcraft.. in fact, they make the milieu of the game more alive... this debate will definitely motivate me to check out a few Brood War replays that's for sure.
Nina, under the current rules, nothing is mentioned about koreans/chinese players playing in the series of tournaments. The "thing" is even written in the FAQ section. We interpret it as a "rule" in our discussions talk. This is yet another show in my eyes of the thoughtlessness of whoever wrote it. At least this is what I see in the main thread. Correct me if I'm wrong.
So, under the current FAQ, Scan is not allowed to play, he is an exception. The so called exception is described by Stratos as the average TL member. But all I see in Scan's posts repetitevely are some form of the following seemingly selfish statement "I am just taking my opportunity as a player". I don't remember a post along the lines of "As a member of the community I decided to...". Defiler tours are no contributions... the guy just probably likes the soft competition to extract money from. And he got away with it as Yoda and the defiler tours were as lilberal as they could get.
I believe I placed bigger efforts than Scan in my "Under the Radar" thread than him when opening that 3page thread, or turning his stream on, or reviewing translations here and there. All I could do, in relation to his contributions, is just keep guessing whether or not the iccup 2v2 laddering specifically helped players or didn't.
I see thoughtless/incompetentent comment/action -> I argument finely against it -> then I receive thoughtless/incompetent responses -> I further confirm the person is incompetent/not as competent as me on the matter and search the roots in stuff like low iccup ranking and so on -> I start to read and respond far less diligently to such posters.
and NOT like this:
Some guy commented -> check the guy at iccup for his rank before reading his comment -> This guy is D -> LOL GTFO -> ???
This is why I joked with Peeano asking him for best rank, knowing that he was pretty off in his judgement. And this is why I will easily dismiss the football comparason as it is very inappropriate.
This is why TL staff is incompetent in my eyes. 3 issues:
1. Paranoid Android -> TL staff is not even aware of it -> People argumenting finely it's imba -> TL "Ok, we checked it, it's fine" -> Me saying the check is stone-age-alike, it could be fixed easily -> TL: "Ok, it's imba, we will remove it" -> ????
Why not place some efforts and fix it?
2. KOR-EU/US connection -> Me before the cups: lag issues -> TL: "What why? No." -> Three cups later 4 players complain from a single player about lag in a single tournament -> TL: No lag.
3. TL: The rule we are arguing about for so much time is actually a FAQ.
I am not complaining in just about every post like the Expcetion about how I lost my time discussing this and how stressed I became. Everybody spending their time posting in these discussions could have easily done something more productive in relation to BW than discussing this here. The average TL member does not complain. But The Average TL member does.
On August 19 2015 06:43 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Everybody spending their time posting in these discussions could have easily done something more productive in relation to BW than discussing this here.
On August 19 2015 06:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: So, under the current FAQ, Scan is not allowed to play, he is an exception. The so called exception is described by Stratos as the average TL member.
That's not how the basis on which the exception was made nor how it is defended. It is but a small part that played into the decision making that I was trying to explain, though I'm aware of how that may have caused some confusion.
I believe I placed bigger efforts than Scan in my "Under the Radar" thread than him when opening that 3page thread, or turning his stream on, or reviewing translations here and there. All I could do, in relation to his contributions, is just keep guessing whether or not the iccup 2v2 laddering specifically helped players or didn't.
Maybe, I honestly don't measure people's contributions here. It was never meant to be a competition in contributions anyway. Scan's contributions were once or twice brought up to illustrate that he is indeed a member of our community. They were not the basis for him being allowed in the cups or being considered a member of our community in the first place.
Comparing his contributions to anyone else's doesn't make much sense imo. I'm not sure what you're trying to 'win'? As far as I know, you're allowed and welcome to play in the TLCs or contribute in any way you see fit, including sharing your opinions. Noone is taking that away from you.
On August 19 2015 06:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: So, under the current FAQ, Scan is not allowed to play, he is an exception. The so called exception is described by Stratos as the average TL member.
That's not how the basis on which the exception was made nor how it is defended. It is but a small part that played into the decision making that I was trying to explain, though I'm aware of how that may have caused some confusion.
I believe I placed bigger efforts than Scan in my "Under the Radar" thread than him when opening that 3page thread, or turning his stream on, or reviewing translations here and there. All I could do, in relation to his contributions, is just keep guessing whether or not the iccup 2v2 laddering specifically helped players or didn't.
Maybe, I honestly don't measure people's contributions here. It was never meant to be a competition in contributions anyway. Scan's contributions were once or twice brought up to illustrate that he is indeed a member of our community. They were not the basis for him being allowed in the cups or being considered a member of our community in the first place.
Comparing his contributions to anyone else's doesn't make much sense imo. I'm not sure what you're trying to 'win'? As far as I know, you're allowed and welcome to play in the TLCs or contribute in any way you see fit, including sharing your opinions. Noone is taking that away from you.
The so called contributions are not sufficient to give him the privillege to be an exception, to lecture all other players on lag issues and complain that we are wasting his time and stressing him by discussing this
This all feels like a war to me where many, if not most, players are on one side of the barricade, while TL bw staff is on the other. Did nobody notice how 2pacalypse basically said that all TLS players and their attitude was the problem and that they were apathic when in reality relatively thorough preparation was happening? Relatively thorough because for example i did not have too much time to practice but i prepared when i was able to do so. Also did nobody notice the intro of the TLS Championship write up "Through lots of preparation, hard work and unrivaled passion by BW staff, all three tournaments ran really well and helped provide some much needed rejuvenation for a community that thrived on its unequivocal love for the game."
So, the BW staff is the best thing to happen to foreign BW and the players, that are not even mentioned, are trying to ruin it?
Or perhaps this is all "drama" was purposefully made to strengthen foreign bw activity?
I just said that his contributions weren't even the basis for his allowance.. Regardless of that, you can think that they were or weren't sufficient but you don't get to decided that. If you want to make those calls you can put in the hours, join us as a staff member and work on future events with us. We could surely use a highly skilled veteran on our side if you're interested.
Btw, Scan's "so-called contributions" were contributions, smaller or bigger, and by continually mocking them you're only making yourself look like a dick. I don't know/care if you have any personal issues with the guy but if you do I suggest you deal with them in a different way, because this is really only hurting your image here.
I can't believe everything I just read, I am not going to write a really long summary because I just got done arguing with you on Skype before I even knew about this blog.
1. This is a Foreign Tournament, Scan is Korean. 2. Scan is Korean. 3. People cannot just practice harder to beat Scan and even if they could, he is Korean. 4. You and everyone supporting Scan playing in this tournament, are not playing in this tournament themselves or even playing BW actively / trying to improve in BW actively. 5. It isn't the entire BW foreign scene wanting a FOREIGN tournament with no Korean that is killing StarCraft.
I'll tell you what is killing StarCraft... Shit Posts / Blogs like yours where people say "StarCraft is dying" or "You are killing StarCraft" You sir are killing StarCraft. With your ego and negative attitude. Please go back to CS:GO.
What if regardless of the TL announcement, the BW staff, for the most part, is still persuaded that Scan should have played? From their perspective, perhaps i am the "cocky pretending to be competent somewhat good and inactive player that is very uncomfortable to deal with cuz he is harshly pointing stuff". It doesnt feel very motivational to be perceived as such - neither for me, nor for them as 2pac already stated that we were a problem during the much more "peaceful" TLS tournaments
On August 19 2015 09:37 LRM)TechnicS wrote: What if regardless of the TL announcement, the BW staff, for the most part, is still persuaded that Scan should have played? From their perspective, perhaps i am the "cocky pretending to be competent somewhat good and inactive player that is very uncomfortable to deal with cuz he is harshly pointing stuff". It doesnt feel very motivational to be perceived as such - neither for me, nor for them as 2pac already stated that we were a problem during the much more "peaceful" TLS tournaments
I can't speak for anyone else but I was persuaded by 2Pac a while ago that it's the right thing to do, mainly considering the long break we've had since the last tournaments. I don't perceive this as any kind of war with one players on one side and TOs on the other. I feel either on friendly or neutral terms with all of the players including those that voiced their concerns.
If you're interested in how I percieve you, I think you're sometimes letting your emotions get the better of you and unnecessarily undermine your position in the discussion by acting hostile. I suffer that very problem and often have to re-write my posts multiple times, so I can relate. Or maybe I'm just projecting my own problems on you, who knows. At the end of the day I try take the core of what you're saying as a highly skilled player and veteran of the scene and try to keep it in mind to form a more accurate opinion on the matter.
I only hope you'll either start playing again or maybe involve yourself in casting the cups or some other ways despite the things that have been said when they shouldn't, which was a bad move on our part.
On August 19 2015 09:40 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Besides not touching on 90% of what i said, Stratos - what is this so called basis?
This has been discussed so many times and I'm only staying up the night to finish a vid so I hope you'll pardon me but I won't be going into that at all.
Stratos, no it hasnt. Please check the main thread and see all of 2pacalypses posts. He says: "scan is part of the foreign bw community because of the contributions. End of discussion. Also go practice" what a solid basis 2pacalypse basically managed to dodge almost all of my posts in a 30 page thread and leave them unanswered. What does it matter if im officially part of the tl bw staff? Im putting actual hours here to post to only be seemingly ignored for 30+ pages? And to be perceived as a hostile dick?
I can't believe people are frothing at the mouth about this.
The rules are rules. If Scan is allowed to play, then Scan is allowed to play. That being said, if the decision wasn't unanimous among the members of TL admins, then you guys simply screwed up, and need to quickly come to a consensus and squash this stupid beef. You guys are responsible for setting up / formatting the tournaments, if there's some sort of issue with how the tournament is being run, the blame rests solely with you (as in, the corporate entity that is TL). Not the players. You.
Either lay the law down and ban the dissenters from these tournaments and reinforce the "practice more" ethos, or ban Scan for being Korean. What needs to happen is an actual unanimous decision, not this endless cycle of bickering with no results. Honestly this whole thing casts a horrible light on the BW community and makes Team Liquid look like a Mickey Mouse operation. Stop being juvenile, act like professionals.
On August 19 2015 10:57 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Stratos, no it hasnt. Please check the main thread and see all of 2pacalypses posts. He says: "scan is part of the foreign bw community because of the contributions. End of discussion. Also go practice" what a solid basis 2pacalypse basically managed to dodge almost all of my posts in a 30 page thread and leave them unanswered. What does it matter if im officially part of the tl bw staff? Im putting actual hours here to post to only be seemingly ignored for 30+ pages? And to be perceived as a hostile dick?
Good stuff
2pac probably 'dodged' your questions because they have mostly been answered time and time again already, plus there were some seriously inappropriate ones like, 'I want the nicknames of the people that made the decision'. That kind of demand would barely make sense coming from Nazgul and I can't even imagine him voicing it that way. You are free to put in the hours but we're not payed to answer your questions and we're certainly not payed to answer your questions time and time again if you keep mocking us during the process.
We were following the threads, discussing things and eventually decided to listen to the requests. It is unfortunate but yes, because you voiced your complaints the way you did, your input has been a bit overshadowed by your agressive tone, although the underlying message wasn't lost on us. Anyway, I already admitted we have made some mistakes and I don't have the time or the mood to discuss this with you further. Maybe it's me, maybe it's you, but I don't like the atmosphere of this discussion and you're not entitled to my time and energy.
I'm sorry but I still cannot believe you had the nerve and audacity to name your blog "You are killing StarCraft", this entire blog is just sad and upsetting.
I can't believe people are frothing at the mouth about this.
The rules are rules. If Scan is allowed to play, then Scan is allowed to play. That being said, if the decision wasn't unanimous among the members of TL admins, then you guys simply screwed up, and need to quickly come to a consensus and squash this stupid beef. You guys are responsible for setting up / formatting the tournaments, if there's some sort of issue with how the tournament is being run, the blame rests solely with you (as in, the corporate entity that is TL). Not the players. You.
Either lay the law down and ban the dissenters from these tournaments and reinforce the "practice more" ethos, or ban Scan for being Korean. What needs to happen is an actual unanimous decision, not this endless cycle of bickering with no results. Honestly this whole thing casts a horrible light on the BW community and makes Team Liquid look like a Mickey Mouse operation. Stop being juvenile, act like professionals.
Oh, and let it go.
A hardline response to every form of disagreement is a great way to alienate people. Would you really like it if all of the top players who take exception to Scan being here chose not to participate in TLC as a form of protest? People who have strong contributions tend to have strong opinions on the matter, and you also might notice that the best players here (Eon, Technics, Draw, Telecom, and maybe Eriador) are basically of one opinion on the matter. Whether or not you agree, perhaps it's worth listening to what they might have to say on the topic?
People have opinions. Silence those, and you won't have many people left. Do you really think that anyone cares about the prize pool? No, for these guys it's a chance to test their skills in a fun format with a small reward. Take away the motivation to play, and they won't - simple as that.
On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote: So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic.
-.- I did not toss around such words "evil corrupt assholes" Obviously none of you stole any money or killed anyone or anything.like that.
As I said in the original post I respect the staff and I appreciate what the staff has been putting out for all these years. So don't read me as some raging idiot.
As mentioned I'm disagreeing with how the goals are presented. A scholarship fund for Latinos shouldn't go to an Asian. A scholarship fund for everyone can give money to anyone they want. And if you make exceptions you definitely don't get to call the resultant angry latinos "greedy" or ask them to work harder and still feel righteous about it.
I'm not demanding anything. I just couldn't stand how some of the staff are on a high horse and are disrespectful to the players in the foreign scene, whom they were supposed to support.
On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote: So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic.
-.- I did not toss around such words "evil corrupt assholes" Obviously none of you stole any money or killed anyone or anything.like that.
As I said in the original post I respect the staff and I appreciate what the staff has been putting out for all these years. So don't read me as some raging idiot.
As mentioned I'm disagreeing with how the goals are presented. A scholarship fund for Latinos shouldn't go to an Asian. A scholarship fund for everyone can give money to anyone they want. And if you make exceptions you definitely don't get to call the resultant angry latinos "greedy" or ask them to work harder and still feel righteous about it.
I'm not demanding anything. I just couldn't stand how some of the staff are on a high horse and are disrespectful to the players in the foreign scene, whom they were supposed to support.
As I said, I agree with the decision that's been made and I hope it'll make things better. But suggesting the impact of the cups on the foreigner scene so far has been neutral or even negative is just absurd. We've had plenty of people saying they came back for these cups and are excited to practice again and indeed we had some people saying they probably won't bother. We also had some who were originally discouraged but changed their minds. That's the support right there, open your eyes. Forget the staff but saying that all that money up for grabs is somehow a negative force just because a part of it may be going elsewhere and some people may get roflstomped along the way is insulting the sponsor.
Also, suggesting someone's (who's?) friendship with Scan clouded their judgement with nothing at all to back that up (please prove me wrong) is in my opinion an offence worth at least a temporary ban or something. Don't worry though I don't get off on reporting people. But think twice before posting random accusations like that. Questioning the integrity of people like 2pac is outrageous at best. Very uncool.
As for moral high ground, I'm not very familiar with the term and don't much care to learn more about it but I'll go ahead and say you're right and again I admit we made mistakes, me included.
the ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy... play starcraft or dont. be the best that you can be or lose, that's always what scbw has been about.. if you get caught hacking then get banned, if you shit talk then reap the repercussions by not having as many practice partners.. iccup admins, STOP spamming EVERY user online with BS that /dnd can't even block, i don't care that it is some idiot's birthday or that you're looking for admins!
if this tourny is banning kids for being 'rude,' then it's obviously a tournament for noobs(unless it's banning laggers like peru and chile, which iccup doesn't do because it's run by idiots.
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
I can't believe people are frothing at the mouth about this.
The rules are rules. If Scan is allowed to play, then Scan is allowed to play. That being said, if the decision wasn't unanimous among the members of TL admins, then you guys simply screwed up, and need to quickly come to a consensus and squash this stupid beef. You guys are responsible for setting up / formatting the tournaments, if there's some sort of issue with how the tournament is being run, the blame rests solely with you (as in, the corporate entity that is TL). Not the players. You.
Either lay the law down and ban the dissenters from these tournaments and reinforce the "practice more" ethos, or ban Scan for being Korean. What needs to happen is an actual unanimous decision, not this endless cycle of bickering with no results. Honestly this whole thing casts a horrible light on the BW community and makes Team Liquid look like a Mickey Mouse operation. Stop being juvenile, act like professionals.
Oh, and let it go.
A hardline response to every form of disagreement is a great way to alienate people. Would you really like it if all of the top players who take exception to Scan being here chose not to participate in TLC as a form of protest? People who have strong contributions tend to have strong opinions on the matter, and you also might notice that the best players here (Eon, Technics, Draw, Telecom, and maybe Eriador) are basically of one opinion on the matter. Whether or not you agree, perhaps it's worth listening to what they might have to say on the topic?
People have opinions. Silence those, and you won't have many people left. Do you really think that anyone cares about the prize pool? No, for these guys it's a chance to test their skills in a fun format with a small reward. Take away the motivation to play, and they won't - simple as that.
I understand and appreciate what you're saying, but nothing is ever accomplished in any organization without some measure of dialogue and consensus within the organization's leadership. The fact that so many people are up in arms about Scan playing, and that even some TL / BW admins are / were against it, means that this fundamental dialogue either didn't happen or wasn't carried through to its logical conclusion. I've even read opinions that state the rules were written specifically so Scan could play. Whether that's fact or fiction only the TL admins know.
Scan is the only Korean who's allowed to play in this so-called Foreigner tournament. There's a cost-analysis that needs to be done as damage control:
Who should we alienate? Unfortunately, that's what it's come down to. The tournament's format allowed for one Korean player to participate. No one wants to say it, but right now it's Every-Foreigner-Player vs One-Korean-Player.
Here are the solutions:
A) Ban Scan, apologize profusely, keep everyone else happy. B) Tell people to quit their bitching and practice. C) Allow anyone (including Koreans) to participate in subsequent tournaments.
My point is, whichever of those options happens, it needs to be a product of the TL admins forming a united front and making a unified decision. I.E. acting like professionals who are the mainstream face of Brood War. Stop airing dirty laundry, personal problems, keep it behind closed doors, make a decision, enforce that decision. Taking to the forums and blogging about it just makes TL look, again, like an amateurish Mickey Mouse operation. Do you think my restaurant manager goes on Facebook and posts publicly about other employees and how they made poor decisions? No: she handles it professionally on an individual, case-by-case basis, and sticks to her decisions. That's the right way to do things. This constant in-fighting is the wrong way to go about this.
Consensus among leadership staff is generally an illusion, one that any competent leadership team will work hard to maintain. It's also possible to make a bad call. On that front, the most you could really complain about is this blog post right here.
On August 19 2015 23:32 LegalLord wrote: Consensus among leadership staff is generally an illusion, one that any competent leadership team will work hard to maintain. It's also possible to make a bad call. On that front, the most you could really complain about is this blog post right here.
You're exactly right, maintaining an illusion of consensus is the sign of competent leadership. In this situation, there is no illusion, just a very public argument between admins.
Also, Brood War, if it's not going to die, will exist as a diminished shell of itself. It's perfectly natural. If you enjoy the game, keep playing it. If you don't enjoy the game, then don't.
For me, Starcraft (and SCII) just triggers the worst rage and self-loathing for me. I can log in every once and a while and play a couple of games, but gone are the days where I'll play for six+ hours straight.
The same thing happening to you happened to me, with the Stronghold community, which had a passionate-if-not-huge fanbase a while back. I was one of the best map makers, still featured on the top 100 maps. And then the community died. We all lamented it, but couldn't change it. Doesn't mean I won't play it ever again, but it'll never be as buzzing as it once was.
On August 18 2015 22:06 Stratos wrote: So if we never used the word foreigners but just called it cups for the TL community it would've been ok but since we said foreigners including Scan means we're evil corrupt assholes bending rules for our buddy. Nice logic.
-.- I did not toss around such words "evil corrupt assholes" Obviously none of you stole any money or killed anyone or anything.like that.
As I said in the original post I respect the staff and I appreciate what the staff has been putting out for all these years. So don't read me as some raging idiot.
As mentioned I'm disagreeing with how the goals are presented. A scholarship fund for Latinos shouldn't go to an Asian. A scholarship fund for everyone can give money to anyone they want. And if you make exceptions you definitely don't get to call the resultant angry latinos "greedy" or ask them to work harder and still feel righteous about it.
I'm not demanding anything. I just couldn't stand how some of the staff are on a high horse and are disrespectful to the players in the foreign scene, whom they were supposed to support.
As I said, I agree with the decision that's been made and I hope it'll make things better. But suggesting the impact of the cups on the foreigner scene so far has been neutral or even negative is just absurd. We've had plenty of people saying they came back for these cups and are excited to practice again and indeed we had some people saying they probably won't bother. We also had some who were originally discouraged but changed their minds. That's the support right there, open your eyes. Forget the staff but saying that all that money up for grabs is somehow a negative force just because a part of it may be going elsewhere and some people may get roflstomped along the way is insulting the sponsor.
Also, suggesting someone's (who's?) friendship with Scan clouded their judgement with nothing at all to back that up (please prove me wrong) is in my opinion an offence worth at least a temporary ban or something. Don't worry though I don't get off on reporting people. But think twice before posting random accusations like that. Questioning the integrity of people like 2pac is outrageous at best. Very uncool.
As for moral high ground, I'm not very familiar with the term and don't much care to learn more about it but I'll go ahead and say you're right and again I admit we made mistakes, me included.
But suggesting the impact of the cups on the foreigner scene so far has been neutral or even negative is just absurd.
Someone else might have made this point, but it wasn't me, because I too think that it's absurd.
My point about Scan wasn't what you think, basically you're "accepting him as a foreigner" because of his closeness to TL, which we can all agree on, which was what I meant by "buddy".
I was making a point about how you shouldn't be attacking the players objecting Scan's participation because the fact is you did make a special arrangement to include him.
I accept that you all are a lot more in touch with everything, and as mentioned in the first long post I do not doubt your sincerity and efforts in supporting the community. I attributed the condescending attitude to ego and emotions.
As mentioned in my post above, I am mainly arguing here because of the attitude of the staff (or some of them) towards the foreigners, and how they are sometimes dismissed for various reasons, from laziness to greed, resulting in them being dismissed as children when they are trying to talk. As someone who couldn't be dismissed for the same reasons, I felt that I had to say something.
If a blog post like this could be published, we can only imagine what is really being said and thought in private.
I am happy to hear that things should get better from a blog posts like the OP, and it seems that this blog post will be the lowest point in this TL event. Thank you.
If a blog post like this could be published, we can only imagine what is really being said and thought in private.
Well don't imagine too much lest you become angry about words that were never said. This blog is the most aggressive post I've seen regarding the subject. Most of what was expressed behind the scenes, I would term as disappointment.
On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote: the ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy... play starcraft or dont. be the best that you can be or lose, that's always what scbw has been about.. if you get caught hacking then get banned, if you shit talk then reap the repercussions by not having as many practice partners.. iccup admins, STOP spamming EVERY user online with BS that /dnd can't even block, i don't care that it is some idiot's birthday or that you're looking for admins!
if this tourny is banning kids for being 'rude,' then it's obviously a tournament for noobs(unless it's banning laggers like peru and chile, which iccup doesn't do because it's run by idiots.
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
Thanks for your message, I will forward them to my former colleagues. Personally, I'm happy I was able to get yet another user of the server. It was my goal to piss off as many people as possible, for the glory of Satan of course. Also, once the server is empty, we could finally use all our resources for ICCup-Hello-Kitty-Island-Adventure. Please spread the word and make more people quite this silly nonsense game forever. This being said,
On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote: the ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy... play starcraft or dont. be the best that you can be or lose, that's always what scbw has been about.. if you get caught hacking then get banned, if you shit talk then reap the repercussions by not having as many practice partners.. iccup admins, STOP spamming EVERY user online with BS that /dnd can't even block, i don't care that it is some idiot's birthday or that you're looking for admins!
if this tourny is banning kids for being 'rude,' then it's obviously a tournament for noobs(unless it's banning laggers like peru and chile, which iccup doesn't do because it's run by idiots.
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
Thanks for your message, I will forward them to my former colleagues. Personally, I'm happy I was able to get yet another user of the server. It was my goal to piss off as many people as possible, for the glory of Satan of course. Also, once the server is empty, we could finally use all our resources for ICCup-Hello-Kitty-Island-Adventure. Please spread the word and make more people quite this silly nonsense game forever. This being said,
Happy Birthday ZaRaki!
haha good answer. I can promise, the transformation to hello Satan Island Adventure game is well underway. All our intention is still to make users miserable and to quit BW. Also Gecko is of course still on the team and making sure Eywa is treated very bad With that beeing said, to important matters:
On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote: the ego in this thread is ridiculous the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy...
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
The ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is full of scrubs. Oxymoron no?
So you think everyone who is actually serious about StarCraft makes it a point to actually learn the Korean language, to escape iCCup? Or are you referring to the fact all the Koreans left iCCup?
First of all Foreigners shouldn't have to learn Korean in order to enjoy StarCraft, and any Korean would agree, I know because I am in Ever) on Fish and have been in a myriad of Korean clans on USWest and Fish. Koreans left iCCup because the ping was better on Brain / Fish, the maps were better, and it is easier for Koreans to communicate specifically only with other Koreans mainly because English is difficult for them.
Secondly it is people like you who portray this omniscient all knowing picture of yourself, when you really most likely know nothing about the Korean scene and you don't even play / practice BW yourself, do you?
If everyone else is a scrub and you are a pro, then make one logical attempt to disprove what I said is true.
On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote: the ego in this thread is ridiculous the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy...
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
First of all Foreigners shouldn't have to learn Korean in order to enjoy StarCraft, and any Korean would agree, I know because I am in Ever) on Fish and have been in a myriad of Korean clans on USWest and Fish. Koreans left iCCup because the ping was better on Brain / Fish, the maps were better,
isn't Patry still the only non-Korean world champ... he assimilated on his climb to the top... and its a big reason why he was able to compete with the best in the world.
good luck trying to be the best basketball player in the world without learning how to speak english.. or the best baseball player or the best... etc etc.
On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote: the ego in this thread is ridiculous the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy...
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
The ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is full of scrubs. Oxymoron no?
So you think everyone who is actually serious about StarCraft makes it a point to actually learn the Korean language, to escape iCCup? Or are you referring to the fact all the Koreans left iCCup?
First of all Foreigners shouldn't have to learn Korean in order to enjoy StarCraft, and any Korean would agree, I know because I am in Ever) on Fish and have been in a myriad of Korean clans on USWest and Fish. Koreans left iCCup because the ping was better on Brain / Fish, the maps were better, and it is easier for Koreans to communicate specifically only with other Koreans mainly because English is difficult for them.
Secondly it is people like you who portray this omniscient all knowing picture of yourself, when you really most likely know nothing about the Korean scene and you don't even play / practice BW yourself, do you?
If everyone else is a scrub and you are a pro, then make one logical attempt to disprove what I said is true.
i only play USW but i hang out in the korean channels, i don't go on fish.
Take your scope back a little bit, and look at things from a more open-minded perspective.
Maybe these weekly tournaments are like the "e-sports" (God that term is so stupid) version of a local street basketball tournament, and Scan coming in is like Lebron James coming in. This would very rarely happen in basketball, but in starcraft it's pretty common cuz Internet, so I'd take that into consideration when tournament organizers put up fences.
So for example
Scenario: Weekly Tournament Shenanigans Priority: Growth of Starcraft High Priority. Here, take antithesis after transposing "kill" into "hurt" to simplify things and not be a nipicky word-doucher (i.e. don't ask: "Will Scan winning this weekly every week kill starcraft?" Yes, that's the arithmetic the OP worked out when he resorted to title clickbait, but assume the best case argument, don't be a dick)
Lebron winning this weekly every week is better for growth of starcraft? Yes/No (I'm using the term "Lebron" as defined above because it doesn't have to be Scan winning) Less skilled players winning this weekly every week is better for growth of starcraft? Yes/No (Less skilled than Lebron, as in LebronBBanned)
EITHER of these outcomes could be true, and it's not always the one you think. America's future president Donald Trump is using controversial remarks to stay relevant in the media, and you would think that that wouldn't work. However, due to a bunch of factors, that works nowadays. You can build whole cash cows out of it that make money off haters (Justin Bieber is a good example of this concept). To bring it closer to home, I had no freaking idea what the name of this tournament was until this "controversy" about Scan arose. (I still don't; come on tourney organizers, you've got an 8 page thread, do something with it! Getting banned from YOUR tournament could start to become the first step in any aspiring player's career!)
If you want to talk about "growth," "decay," or any abstract concept, you need to be prepared in your thought processes. It's not going to be easy, but it sounds like you're too busy worrying about whether something is "wrong" or "right" to get there. Remember, there's always more than one way to enjoy a game ohmygershmetaphor.
Don't get it twisted - Scan isn't being scrutinized because of his skill. It's because in Korea, there is vibrant StarCraft competitive outlet, and for everyone else outside of Korea - we really have nothing. That's why we have tournaments like this for the rest of us in the world who love StarCraft, but live in countries where nobody else cares that much.
Anyone doing the comparison of StarCraft to Basketball... c'mon.
On August 20 2015 10:16 ninazerg wrote: Don't get it twisted - Scan isn't being scrutinized because of his skill. It's because in Korea, there is vibrant StarCraft competitive outlet, and for everyone else outside of Korea - we really have nothing. That's why we have tournaments like this for the rest of us in the world who love StarCraft, but live in countries where nobody else cares that much.
Anyone doing the comparison of StarCraft to Basketball... c'mon.
when someone non-Korean accomplishes what Patry did without assimilating.. lemme know.
a basketball player must play in the NCAA or NBA and learn to communicate in english to be near the best in the world. a female hockey player can only reach world class status by playing in NA and conversing in either english or french... there is nothing in women's hockey that comes anything close to the level of pro competition for the Clarkson Cup... and for amateur play nothing is close to the NCAA.
if u want to be the best female hockey player u must go to NA and assimilate.. u want to be the best starcraft player u must go to korea and assimilate.. Like the Clarkson Cup for women's hockey.. nothing comes close to the GSL... and its in Korea.
who says life is fair? i'm just talking about what it takes to be the best. being immersed within the best competition forces you to raise your game.
On August 20 2015 10:16 ninazerg wrote: Don't get it twisted - Scan isn't being scrutinized because of his skill. It's because in Korea, there is vibrant StarCraft competitive outlet, and for everyone else outside of Korea - we really have nothing. That's why we have tournaments like this for the rest of us in the world who love StarCraft, but live in countries where nobody else cares that much.
Anyone doing the comparison of StarCraft to Basketball... c'mon.
when someone non-Korean accomplishes what Patry did without assimilating.. lemme know.
a basketball player must play in the NCAA or NBA and learn to communicate in english to be near the best in the world. a female hockey player can only reach world class status by playing in NA and conversing in either english or french... there is nothing in women's hockey that comes anything close to the level of pro competition for the Clarkson Cup... and for amateur play nothing is close to the NCAA.
if u want to be the best female hockey player u must go to NA and assimilate.. u want to be the best starcraft player u must go to korea and assimilate.. Like the Clarkson Cup for women's hockey.. nothing comes close to the GSL... and its in Korea.
who says life is fair? i'm just talking about what it takes to be the best. being immersed within the best competition forces you to raise your game.
Yea, and a tournament that clearly states it is for Foreign BW and has a Korean winning every final and off racing is the problem. Obviously you do not understand the situation at hand here, let me elaborate as simply as possible.
Scan winning every single TLC cup, a Korean in a "Foreign BW Tournament", no matter how much people want to think that Scan being in it is going to raise the skill ceiling by his presence simply being here, you are wrong. In fact, you all couldn't be more wrong. Regardless, one Korean in a BW Foreign tournament winning every single one and then then the championship is not going to make people magically rise like phoenixes from the ashes in order to take the crown. People would have to literally learn to speak korean as you said, practice 8+ hours a day, and join a "SPONSORED PRO KOREAN TEAM" (LIKE SCAN IS NOW), but we aren't, we are foreigners, this is a FOREIGN tournament. A Korean in a Foreign tournament shouldn't be allowed, even if there is some ridiculously biased favoritism that was enabling scan to be able to play.
"Koreans are not allowed to play unless they are long time TL users and contribute to TL".
On August 20 2015 10:16 ninazerg wrote: Don't get it twisted - Scan isn't being scrutinized because of his skill. It's because in Korea, there is vibrant StarCraft competitive outlet, and for everyone else outside of Korea - we really have nothing. That's why we have tournaments like this for the rest of us in the world who love StarCraft, but live in countries where nobody else cares that much.
Anyone doing the comparison of StarCraft to Basketball... c'mon.
when someone non-Korean accomplishes what Patry did without assimilating.. lemme know.
a basketball player must play in the NCAA or NBA and learn to communicate in english to be near the best in the world. a female hockey player can only reach world class status by playing in NA and conversing in either english or french... there is nothing in women's hockey that comes anything close to the level of pro competition for the Clarkson Cup... and for amateur play nothing is close to the NCAA.
if u want to be the best female hockey player u must go to NA and assimilate.. u want to be the best starcraft player u must go to korea and assimilate.. Like the Clarkson Cup for women's hockey.. nothing comes close to the GSL... and its in Korea.
who says life is fair? i'm just talking about what it takes to be the best. being immersed within the best competition forces you to raise your game.
you can assimilate, but not everyone can be next lebron/messi/woods ^^ but you correct that to be best you must mix with best scene
On August 20 2015 10:16 ninazerg wrote: Don't get it twisted - Scan isn't being scrutinized because of his skill. It's because in Korea, there is vibrant StarCraft competitive outlet, and for everyone else outside of Korea - we really have nothing. That's why we have tournaments like this for the rest of us in the world who love StarCraft, but live in countries where nobody else cares that much.
Anyone doing the comparison of StarCraft to Basketball... c'mon.
when someone non-Korean accomplishes what Patry did without assimilating.. lemme know.
a basketball player must play in the NCAA or NBA and learn to communicate in english to be near the best in the world. a female hockey player can only reach world class status by playing in NA and conversing in either english or french... there is nothing in women's hockey that comes anything close to the level of pro competition for the Clarkson Cup... and for amateur play nothing is close to the NCAA.
if u want to be the best female hockey player u must go to NA and assimilate.. u want to be the best starcraft player u must go to korea and assimilate.. Like the Clarkson Cup for women's hockey.. nothing comes close to the GSL... and its in Korea.
who says life is fair? i'm just talking about what it takes to be the best. being immersed within the best competition forces you to raise your game.
Yea, and a tournament that clearly states it is for Foreign BW and has a Korean winning every final and off racing is the problem. Obviously you do not understand the situation at hand here, let me elaborate as simply as possible.
Scan winning every single TLC cup, a Korean in a "Foreign BW Tournament", no matter how much people want to think that Scan being in it is going to raise the skill ceiling by his presence simply being here, you are wrong. In fact, you all couldn't be more wrong. Regardless, one Korean in a BW Foreign tournament winning every single one and then then the championship is not going to make people magically rise like phoenixes from the ashes in order to take the crown. People would have to literally learn to speak korean as you said, practice 8+ hours a day, and join a "SPONSORED PRO KOREAN TEAM" (LIKE SCAN IS NOW), but we aren't, we are foreigners, this is a FOREIGN tournament. A Korean in a Foreign tournament shouldn't be allowed, even if there is some ridiculously biased favoritism that was enabling scan to be able to play.
"Koreans are not allowed to play unless they are long time TL users and contribute to TL".
On August 20 2015 11:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote: who says life is fair?
This is a false equivalency because there are so many variables in life that you cannot control, whereas if you run a competitive event, you make the rules and therefore, control the perimeters by which the competition is played.
On August 20 2015 11:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote: who says life is fair?
This is a false equivalency because there are so many variables in life that you cannot control, whereas if you run a competitive event, you make the rules and therefore, control the perimeters by which the competition is played.
the amount of reasonableness you bring always amazes me
On August 20 2015 11:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote: who says life is fair?
This is a false equivalency because there are so many variables in life that you cannot control, whereas if you run a competitive event, you make the rules and therefore, control the perimeters by which the competition is played.
let me make it more clear.
Patry still stands as the only non-korean champion... and it took a helluva lot more than just playing a lot of Starcraft. the best female goalie in the world had to leave finland, learn english and live 7,000 km away from home when she was 17... it took a lot more than raw talent to become #1.
the road they travelled was a lot tougher than the road Marie Philip Poulin or Lim Yo Hwan had paved in front of them. That is what i mean by life not being fair.
On August 20 2015 12:56 GGzerG wrote: Yea, and a tournament that clearly states it is for Foreign BW and has a Korean winning every final and off racing is the problem. Obviously you do not understand the situation at hand here, let me elaborate as simply as possible.
i did not discuss this in my post. my viewpoint is: the "executive producer"/"promoter" can set up whatever rules they want. its their event and their money.
On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote: the ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy... play starcraft or dont. be the best that you can be or lose, that's always what scbw has been about.. if you get caught hacking then get banned, if you shit talk then reap the repercussions by not having as many practice partners.. iccup admins, STOP spamming EVERY user online with BS that /dnd can't even block, i don't care that it is some idiot's birthday or that you're looking for admins!
if this tourny is banning kids for being 'rude,' then it's obviously a tournament for noobs(unless it's banning laggers like peru and chile, which iccup doesn't do because it's run by idiots.
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
Thanks for your message, I will forward them to my former colleagues. Personally, I'm happy I was able to get yet another user of the server. It was my goal to piss off as many people as possible, for the glory of Satan of course. Also, once the server is empty, we could finally use all our resources for ICCup-Hello-Kitty-Island-Adventure. Please spread the word and make more people quite this silly nonsense game forever. This being said,
Happy Birthday ZaRaki!
you forgot:
We're looking for iCCup Admins!!! Message iCCup.NooB for more information!
as well as my personal favorite:
A/B cup is going on now! please go to: "FULL TWITCH ADDRESS" as well as "SECOND FULL TWITCH ADDRESS" to watch! (which blankets the entire screen... dnd exists for a reason...)
i'm just saying, if you want to be taken seriously then stop spamming everyone
On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote: the ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy... play starcraft or dont. be the best that you can be or lose, that's always what scbw has been about.. if you get caught hacking then get banned, if you shit talk then reap the repercussions by not having as many practice partners.. iccup admins, STOP spamming EVERY user online with BS that /dnd can't even block, i don't care that it is some idiot's birthday or that you're looking for admins!
if this tourny is banning kids for being 'rude,' then it's obviously a tournament for noobs(unless it's banning laggers like peru and chile, which iccup doesn't do because it's run by idiots.
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
Thanks for your message, I will forward them to my former colleagues. Personally, I'm happy I was able to get yet another user of the server. It was my goal to piss off as many people as possible, for the glory of Satan of course. Also, once the server is empty, we could finally use all our resources for ICCup-Hello-Kitty-Island-Adventure. Please spread the word and make more people quite this silly nonsense game forever. This being said,
Happy Birthday ZaRaki!
you forgot:
We're looking for iCCup Admins!!! Message iCCup.NooB for more information!
as well as my personal favorite:
A/B cup is going on now! please go to: "FULL TWITCH ADDRESS" as well as "SECOND FULL TWITCH ADDRESS" to watch! (which blankets the entire screen... dnd exists for a reason...)
i'm just saying, if you want to be taken seriously then stop spamming everyone
most people like to know when these events are going on. If you don't, then im sorry for you. However, if YOU want to be taken seriously with this point i recommend two things
a) write your opinion, where it belongs! iccup.com You can't post this in some random blog and expect ICC staff to read and react to it.
b) express yourself in a civil way, then people will listen! As for your main point: i could see altering the /ann system, so /dnd blocks it, or introduce a special command like /dnd all which blocks it. If your playing announcements can be disturbing for the concentration, i know this.
But the decision is not mine, so pls post this where it is read by the appropriate admins.
On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote: the ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy... play starcraft or dont. be the best that you can be or lose, that's always what scbw has been about.. if you get caught hacking then get banned, if you shit talk then reap the repercussions by not having as many practice partners.. iccup admins, STOP spamming EVERY user online with BS that /dnd can't even block, i don't care that it is some idiot's birthday or that you're looking for admins!
if this tourny is banning kids for being 'rude,' then it's obviously a tournament for noobs(unless it's banning laggers like peru and chile, which iccup doesn't do because it's run by idiots.
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
Thanks for your message, I will forward them to my former colleagues. Personally, I'm happy I was able to get yet another user of the server. It was my goal to piss off as many people as possible, for the glory of Satan of course. Also, once the server is empty, we could finally use all our resources for ICCup-Hello-Kitty-Island-Adventure. Please spread the word and make more people quite this silly nonsense game forever. This being said,
Happy Birthday ZaRaki!
you forgot:
We're looking for iCCup Admins!!! Message iCCup.NooB for more information!
as well as my personal favorite:
A/B cup is going on now! please go to: "FULL TWITCH ADDRESS" as well as "SECOND FULL TWITCH ADDRESS" to watch! (which blankets the entire screen... dnd exists for a reason...)
i'm just saying, if you want to be taken seriously then stop spamming everyone
Well, since we're always trying to find the biggest and most idiotic idiot to run the server, you should totally try. So far you're making a so underwhelming impression, showing such a great talent and apparently are willing to master any obstalce - really, please write your application. I think you will be head admin in no time, seems like you're the real deal.
ICCup A/B Tour starts in 1 Day 20 Minutes, link probably twitch.tv/imeonzerg
On August 19 2015 19:30 Endymion wrote: the ego in this thread is ridiculous, the foreigner scene is so full of scrubs that it's crazy... play starcraft or dont. be the best that you can be or lose, that's always what scbw has been about.. if you get caught hacking then get banned, if you shit talk then reap the repercussions by not having as many practice partners.. iccup admins, STOP spamming EVERY user online with BS that /dnd can't even block, i don't care that it is some idiot's birthday or that you're looking for admins!
if this tourny is banning kids for being 'rude,' then it's obviously a tournament for noobs(unless it's banning laggers like peru and chile, which iccup doesn't do because it's run by idiots.
there's a reason why anyone actually serious about starcraft knows or learns koreans to get the fuck away from the noobfest that is iccup
Thanks for your message, I will forward them to my former colleagues. Personally, I'm happy I was able to get yet another user of the server. It was my goal to piss off as many people as possible, for the glory of Satan of course. Also, once the server is empty, we could finally use all our resources for ICCup-Hello-Kitty-Island-Adventure. Please spread the word and make more people quite this silly nonsense game forever. This being said,
Happy Birthday ZaRaki!
you forgot:
We're looking for iCCup Admins!!! Message iCCup.NooB for more information!
as well as my personal favorite:
A/B cup is going on now! please go to: "FULL TWITCH ADDRESS" as well as "SECOND FULL TWITCH ADDRESS" to watch! (which blankets the entire screen... dnd exists for a reason...)
i'm just saying, if you want to be taken seriously then stop spamming everyone
Well, since we're always trying to find the biggest and most idiotic idiot to run the server, you should totally try. So far you're making a so underwhelming impression, showing such a great talent and apparently are willing to master any obstalce - really, please write your application. I think you will be head admin in no time, seems like you're the real deal.
ICCup A/B Tour starts in 1 Day 20 Minutes, link probably twitch.tv/imeonzerg
whatever, iccup admins are like the Queen's Guard, you can flame them all day long and they don't move an inch. sorry, but i don't respect an organization that doesn't ban chileans and peruvians with 500MS from A/B tournies because "they're not lagging" (there's a reason why everyone bans them when they join lobbies...). i'm thankful for the functional server for the foreigner scene that refuses to learn korean, but as far as iccup administration on the server goes i couldn't have a lower opinion. your ad hominems certainly don't help (assuming you're an iccup admin, i don't know who else in their right mind would defend them)
lol seriously the reason why you don't play iccup is that iccup doesn't ban people from chile and peru? that's ridiculous.
Also, jimmyjraynor, I really can't agree with your claim that Giyom's success was caused by his korean assimilation. I don't know when you started following competitive brood war, but Giyom was basically the best player in the world before he went to Korea. He won PGL season 4 and the Brood War World Championship in 1999, two of the absolutely biggest tournaments that year, and went to Korea in early 2000.
Additionally, it's not like Korea was really dominant during this era anyway. I'd argue that in 1999, there were more top players outside Korea than inside Korea - this changes for sure in 2000 though, and might not have been true at the end of 99 either. Slayer won KBK in 2000 as well - this was an era where nonkorean players actually could compete with the Koreans. If the OSL Giyom won had had 50% koreans and 50% the best players from outside Korea, it easily could have been a nonkorean final.
in fact Giyom is a funny example to use because you could just as well argue that his assimilation into Korean culture and learning the language is what caused his brood war downfall lol