The feature of rebinding hotkeys is removing an important aspect of strategy in broodwar.
There are two main aspects of strategy in starcraft that impact decision making: first, the obvious one, build orders/timings/troop movements/mind games/expansion timings/cheese/potential for cheese/ etc, or “game strategy.” All starcraft players, including AI, are restrained by the same things with regard to game variables (time, damage, speed, range, health, tech trees, resources, etc). If you only have 2 zerglings against 12 zealots, there’s next to nothing that you can do unless Blizzard was to give those zerglings +300 damage and +300 hp.. Likewise, on a more nuanced note, if you 14 CC and then 15 CC when your opponent 9pools, you’re pretty much dead given equal player skill/knowledge/etc. Blizzard is trying to not change this aspect of broodwar which is a no brainer, because the dev team (rightfully so) doesn’t want to impact balance/strategy between 1.16.1 and 1.18.x.
However, the second aspect of strategy in starcraft is what I’ll call “player strategy,” which changes from player to player and is somewhat absent when considering AI. Player strategy includes considerations with regard to apm, eapm, comfort with the UI, ability to think and execute under pressure, etc. As you’re aware, flashpoints in discussion like MBS and unlimited unit selection and unit pathing have been discussed to death prior to SC2’s release, throughout SC2’s life, and now in 1.18.x. Personally, I think that the lack of Blizzard’s understanding of this part of starcraft lead to SC2 being an inferior game. Now 1.18.x is threatened by the same ignorance, which I hope this post will somewhat alleviate. Oddly enough, day9 also mentioned the importance of this aspect of broodwar in one of his recent videos (right after or before 1.18.x was announced), although he wasn’t specifically talking about hotkeys. He was more referring to the importance of mechanical requirements and playing under pressure, from how I interpreted it.
You consciously or unconsciously temper your builds with understandings of your own mechanical abilities. An obvious example of this is playing against a godlike player and wanting to rush them to try to end the game as soon as possible so that your mechanical deficiency is limited to a shorter time span, decreasing its overall affect on your winrate vs the player (if you only go to 18 supply vs flash, you only have the chance to mess up building 2 overlords instead of trying to go to 100 supply, which would require more opportunities to make macro mistakes). Even playing vs players of your own skill level though, you choose builds that you feel most comfortable with. If you’re a player that excels at micro, you’ll focus on more aggressive builds that put your skill set at an advantage while disadvantaging your opponent relative to yourself. Likewise, if you’re the same micro player that has issues macroing off of 12 hatcheries, you’re probably not often going to try to 5 hatch hydra open vs protoss then transition into a macro heavy build because it just doesn’t suit your play style.. ESPECIALLY if that protoss is a strong macro protoss, because your skill set will be inferior in that sort of engagement of builds. This build choosing (and decision choosing, too) applies to ALL ‘player strategy’ considerations, not just hotkeys. I think that’s why in SC2 you didn’t see much differentiation between players, the mechanical considerations were so non-existent that everyone pretty much ended up playing the same optimal build. Broodwar has optimal builds as well, but player considerations have a much more noticeable effect on decision making, leading to more diverse games. Again, apm and eapm allocation, flavored with ui comfort and pressure considerations. I think the easiest way to get my point across is to give a few examples of some areas of strategy/skill differentiation that will be eliminated from the game if hotkey rebinding is implemented.
When you’re playing 1.16.1 and you can’t hit 5so6so7so8so reliably, your macro as a zerg is severely limited. Some people might say “dude, you don’t need to be able to make overlords from 4 hatches at once using only hotkeys!! Also, you can just click the icons too after hitting 5s!”, but I honestly believe that fluency in hotkeys is one of the most key features of a successful player’s repertoire. You might not need to hit 5so6so7so8so, but maybe you need to do 5sz6sz7sz8so, or 5sz6sz7so8sz depending on game conditions.. and if you end up missing the ‘o’ key on any of those rotations, and don’t notice, you are supply blocked, and will be behind as a result of your lack of practice/fluency with your hotkeys. Thus, you don’t just need to know “hey, ‘o’ is overlord,” you need to be ready to execute and allocate your practice accordingly. However, if you can just use a grid hotkey layout, I think your overlord would end up being ‘e,’ which even the noobest player could hit with near 100% accuracy on all hatchery macro rotations.. 5se6se7se8se,5se6sz7sz8sz, 5sz6se7sz8se, so you’re artificially a better player than a 1.16.1 player in that regard. You no longer have to really worry about fucking up your macro because Blizzard gave you an out in the form of rebinding overlord from ‘o’ to ‘e.’ I have been playing broodwar since release and I still miss ‘o’ at least once a game in the mentioned macro rotations, so I can only imagine that newer zergs have the same issue as well, which adds strategic considerations to their build and macro decisions.
Another common example even at high levels is ‘o’ for seiging/unseiging tanks.. if you’re stressed out in game and you miss the o key to seige, or if you DOUBLE click o, you’re at a significant disadvantage when juxtaposed with a mechanically superior player.. again, if your siege/unsiege is ‘e,’ the playing field is artifically leveled completely, alleviating this aspect of the game. some people might think that that mechanical superiority is an asinine distinction derived from archaic systems, but THAT’S WHAT STARCRAFT IS.. at least half of your skill as a broodwar player is your understanding of these stupid potential little mistakes that you yourself make, which better players don’t make (and worse players make more often).. your ability to play around your mistakes and operate in stressful situations is what makes you stand out compared to the guy sitting across from you and adds a lot to the nuance and strategy of the game.
Just so that protoss isn’t left out: hitting 5p6p7p8p is a pain. So is building pylons with bpbpbpbp etc. I really don’t play protoss much so i’m not sure about other considerations, but I know whenever I play hunters I have a hard time reliably building probes and pylons given the hotkeys, which gives mechanically superior protosses an advantage over me.
I’m sorry if a lot of this is common knowledge, it’s just frustrating seeing so many “broodwar players” ready to throw the heart of the game out the window for seemingly no reason.. you might think it’s not a huge deal, and it’s certainly not as massive as adding MBS or other assists. However, it’s still removing an aspect of skill, differentiation between players, and strategy from the game. Why is this being added in, for new players? New players should understand that while broodwar’s mechanics might seem outdated and restrictive, they as players are treated with the same respect by the game that the best of the best are. Additionally, new players can enjoy the benefit of throwing other new players off of form by owning them, leading them to fuck up their overlord macro.. they aren’t the only ones that suffer from this, they can use it to their advantage like everyone else already does. Furthermore,the game won’t ask them to go and read up about “optimal hotkey” layouts more than they already have to with vision hotkeys and control group layouts, allowing them to focus on improving at the game itself and enjoy broodwar in all its glory. That’s the appeal of starcraft for me at least.
Some people subscribe to the school of thought that making execution as easy as possible is always better and that games should be purely about decision making. I do not agree! Having "arbitrary" hard to execute things can be a good thing and can make games more fun and rewarding! However, it really depends on a case by case basis.
In your case I think you're wrong. Being able to rebind hotkeys won't hurt the game or the spirit of the game. Training yourself to have fluid, well organized execution will still be extremely important, highly rewarding and take plenty of time and effort. It's just going to make it more comfortable to play - especially for newer players.
In my view: the real reason people are getting upset over rebindable hotkeys - it's just this feeling off: "back in my day I had to learn to hit O to siege tanks damnit and now why shouldn't you!!". Please, have some compassion for the new generation of players. We will still have a very hard time catching up to oldschool people and we don't want to dumb down the game either. Being able to rebind awkward hotkeys does not dumb down the game.
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
Rebinding hotkeys is changing strategy? Man that is so overblown it's ridiculous at this point. I would completely understand this if MBS or instead of 12 there were 24 units allowed to be selected or something like that. But Hotkeys? I promise you this isn't going to change the game in anyway lol. I bet a month or 2 after the hotkeys are in you won't notice a difference in player skill and the game will look the same exact as it has.
Obviously Koreans aren't as against this as some foreigners on here as Blizzard seems to be taking Korean feedback seriously and if all the Koreans were as against this as you were, I don't think Blizzard would do it.
On May 28 2017 03:53 blade55555 wrote: Rebinding hotkeys is changing strategy? Man that is so overblown it's ridiculous at this point. I would completely understand this if MBS or instead of 12 there were 24 units allowed to be selected or something like that. But Hotkeys? I promise you this isn't going to change the game in anyway lol. I bet a month or 2 after the hotkeys are in you won't notice a difference in player skill and the game will look the same exact as it has.
Obviously Koreans aren't as against this as some foreigners on here as Blizzard seems to be taking Korean feedback seriously and if all the Koreans were as against this as you were, I don't think Blizzard would do it.
it removes an aspect of stress from the game, how exactly is that not changing the strategy of the game? i really don't see what is so ridiculous about what i have said, could you please explain?
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
Actually I would agree with you Idv, except I took a page from Kawaiirice a long time ago and moved 1a2a3a to 4a5a6a (as in moved main army controls over a little). I'm pretty sure that forming an angle with your wrist is what hurts the wrist, not moving left to right rapidly. To hit 1a2a3a the left wrist has to be bent to the left very harshly. With 4a5a6a the wrist can sit more or less straight in line with the arm. Rapid left to right movement can be down with the arm itself, leaving the wrist joint more or less stable during left and right movements. But if you use 1a2a3a, and constantly tilt the wrist, this is horrible posture.
I would argue that letting players rebind hotkeys will result in some players sticking everything around QWER so they can continue to use 1a2a3a. This will let them keep their wrist in an aweful position without moving it at all. Joints are made to be moved, rapid movement left and right is good for joints. Joints need to sit in their natural alignment at rest, and have freedom to move in and out of more extreme angles. That's why when we sit in the car for long drives, or get off an airplane, we stand up and stretch out those poor joints.
The only way 1a2a3a is OK is if the player tilts the entire keyboard askew. Then the wrist can rest in a straight posture.
Edit: Also nina is a pretty old BW player from around here. Pretty sure she'd rock u in a 1v1 with way more than 80 apm...
my elitism has bounds, it's keeping broodwar the way it was made way back when and not making unnecessary changes that imo degrade the experience. most of my kr practice partners still only play on 1.16 too, albeit for different reasons, which is a stupid solution.. i just think it would be easier to keep the community together by keeping the game the same instead of even getting into arguments about what is impacting balance and what isn't impacting balance. like, the fact that they're not letting people change the vision hotkeys and ctrl groups is indicative that even they believe that the rebindings have a balance impact, they just feel like the other keys are more negligible. however, the fact that they don't have as much impact doesn't mean there isn't an impact at all, so they just shouldn't be there in the first place.
On May 28 2017 05:44 ninazerg wrote: hit f2, drag a box over larvae, hit "o"
On May 28 2017 05:16 ldv wrote:
On May 28 2017 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
On May 28 2017 06:11 CecilSunkure wrote: Actually I would agree with you Idv, except I took a page from Kawaiirice a long time ago and moved 1a2a3a to 4a5a6a (as in moved main army controls over a little). I'm pretty sure that forming an angle with your wrist is what hurts the wrist, not moving left to right rapidly. To hit 1a2a3a the left wrist has to be bent to the left very harshly. With 4a5a6a the wrist can sit more or less straight in line with the arm. Rapid left to right movement can be down with the arm itself, leaving the wrist joint more or less stable during left and right movements. But if you use 1a2a3a, and constantly tilt the wrist, this is horrible posture.
I would argue that letting players rebind hotkeys will result in some players sticking everything around QWER so they can continue to use 1a2a3a. This will let them keep their wrist in an aweful position without moving it at all. Joints are made to be moved, rapid movement left and right is good for joints. Joints need to sit in their natural alignment at rest, and have freedom to move in and out of more extreme angles. That's why when we sit in the car for long drives, or get off an airplane, we stand up and stretch out those poor joints.
The only way 1a2a3a is OK is if the player tilts the entire keyboard askew. Then the wrist can rest in a straight posture.
Edit: Also nina is a pretty old BW player from around here. Pretty sure she'd rock u in a 1v1 with way more than 80 apm...
That is interesting and I might play around with the 3-7 army hotkeys.
Also it was stupid of me to make the comment about ninazerg, knowing absolutely nothing about her.
My apologies, ninazerg. But I think my argument is still valid, especially because I consider the only arguments against hotkey rebinding to be utterly nonsensical.
I don't like the rebinding of hot keys at all. Broodwar is incredible to watch as a spectator sport and I don't know if you and Day 9 are right that the nature of the games and builds might change, I hope not. But it is however undeniably making the game easier to rebind keys and as a result that makes it (however small the difference) slightly less impressive to watch.
I don't want future tournament winners having to face accusations of it been easier to do what they did than back when player X did it.
On May 28 2017 05:44 ninazerg wrote: hit f2, drag a box over larvae, hit "o"
On May 28 2017 05:16 ldv wrote:
On May 28 2017 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
your responses are so silly and pretentious its impossible to even reason with you.
On May 28 2017 16:10 ETisME wrote: visual clarity difference and different aspect ratio that makes for wider FOV are ok?
again, if it was me i would say the changes are material, but i would rank them below input changes like hotkeys. I thought that they for sure weren't changing FOV/aspect ratio though?
On May 28 2017 15:53 Greg_J wrote: I don't want future tournament winners having to face accusations of it been easier to do what they did than back when player X did it.
yep, this is what i'm really anxious about too.. although for me personally not so much the pro scene since i play a lot more than i watch, i'm more worried about getting mad about losing and having an easy out saying "oh she just changed her hotkeys, if this was 1.16.1 i would have owned her" which is really not in the spirit of broodwar at all..
Being able to hit 4swhatever5swhatever6swhatever7swhatever is much more of a learning curve than whatever the key is. Change it to E and you'd probably miss it and hit R once or twice a game.
I can understand being salty about losing that unique extra little bit of difficulty, but I highly doubt it will compress skill levels much at all. There are so many much, much harder things than hitting key combos with far keys. I don't bat an eye at making overlords and I'm a D+ player.
Double-tapping O is the same mistake as double-tapping E. That doesn't change.
On May 28 2017 16:10 ETisME wrote: visual clarity difference and different aspect ratio that makes for wider FOV are ok?
again, if it was me i would say the changes are material, but i would rank them below input changes like hotkeys. I thought that they for sure weren't changing FOV/aspect ratio though?
On May 28 2017 15:53 Greg_J wrote: I don't want future tournament winners having to face accusations of it been easier to do what they did than back when player X did it.
yep, this is what i'm really anxious about too.. although for me personally not so much the pro scene since i play a lot more than i watch, i'm more worried about getting mad about losing and having an easy out saying "oh she just changed her hotkeys, if this was 1.16.1 i would have owned her" which is really not in the spirit of broodwar at all..
You have a wider FOV in 16 than BW classic. go to the terran one and you can see one more SCV to the left that previously cannot and the production facilities to the right.
On May 28 2017 05:44 ninazerg wrote: hit f2, drag a box over larvae, hit "o"
On May 28 2017 05:16 ldv wrote:
On May 28 2017 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
your responses are so silly and pretentious its impossible to even reason with you.
This coming from, inarguably, the most elitist and pretentious member of the entire forum. I'm bamboozled. You also (unsurprisingly) seemed to miss the post where I rescinded my statement and said it was a stupid thing to say. But, nobody really expects you to read the content before throwing your attitude into the ring.
On May 28 2017 03:53 blade55555 wrote: Rebinding hotkeys is changing strategy? Man that is so overblown it's ridiculous at this point. I would completely understand this if MBS or instead of 12 there were 24 units allowed to be selected or something like that. But Hotkeys? I promise you this isn't going to change the game in anyway lol. I bet a month or 2 after the hotkeys are in you won't notice a difference in player skill and the game will look the same exact as it has.
Obviously Koreans aren't as against this as some foreigners on here as Blizzard seems to be taking Korean feedback seriously and if all the Koreans were as against this as you were, I don't think Blizzard would do it.
it removes an aspect of stress from the game, how exactly is that not changing the strategy of the game? i really don't see what is so ridiculous about what i have said, could you please explain?
"...which adds strategic considerations to their build and macro decisions." is another way of saying i'm gonna hit my keys differently or use a different method (like boxing larvae, which i'll add, a lot of high end players use) or changing screen focus for literally one-and-a-half seconds so i don't mess it up. does it really add anything that you make your overlords in a different way?
far hotkeys as an "aspect of stress" is a cute way of framing something that's anachronistic. most of these arguments concern foreigners because we're considered that. koreans come into the argument [for us] because of the little guy inside that wants the best of the best for us. that's like taking a celebrity's endorsement for a product. most of us will never reach that level or could even consider it. we don't really know what they think unless we knew both the language and could ask them personally.
for the casual player looking to get better over small spurts, the hotkeys make no sense and impact the game in a negative way. this is coming from someone who is an elitist and thinks that what's best for the koreans is what's best for me.
if some guy was looking me in the eye and trying to explain/argue that cross-keyboard hotkeys were good, in 2017, i wouldn't be able to take them seriously. the genre is dying and we're trying to make the game hard (and i say this because there's an opportunity to make it easier) to "keep the complexity", please. so what are left handed players supposed to do?
i'd rather the situation that we have rebinds and most new players who use the feature will never experience the difficulties and hotkey problems that some of us went through, than for our old guard to have a persisting edge for having put so much time already into learning muscle memory and practicing around the keys because they had no other choice. shouldn't that edge predominately be in experience and mentality in self-improvement? will you still need to control space with tanks, and all the other strategic choices you gotta make in a game? yeah. is it easier on you because your hotkeys are manageable? also yeah. this makes it easier across the board right? i disagree. you will simply find another way to find an edge, one of such ways is playing even faster. you think that changes the balance? i'd like you to measure the difference in key inputs between pressing 3/4-o over pressing 3/4-d. i can guarantee that for people who are fast at either that the difference would be less than a third of a second and the only real difference is how you stance your fingers and mentally prepare yourself to press the buttons. think about it, are you playing the game, or is the game playing you?
i think what you're actually concerned about is reaching a good level of play with lesser practice, and this has been an issue since replays were an added feature to the game. it's an issue in any game where a set of players practice something and someone else is watching or studying you. they catch up because what you're doing is actually understandable and can be replicated directly, leaving further improvements to the gameplay directly to make the builds (and counter builds) even better.
all i can say is the game will still have very high basic mechanical requirements, to the point that most casuals won't use more than a couple hotkeys anyway, but will feel incentive to at least try with rebindings. you can try and tell them that they already have it easy, but all it is is an old fart barking over a younger player who just enjoys the same game you have been.
On May 28 2017 03:53 blade55555 wrote: Rebinding hotkeys is changing strategy? Man that is so overblown it's ridiculous at this point. I would completely understand this if MBS or instead of 12 there were 24 units allowed to be selected or something like that. But Hotkeys? I promise you this isn't going to change the game in anyway lol. I bet a month or 2 after the hotkeys are in you won't notice a difference in player skill and the game will look the same exact as it has.
Obviously Koreans aren't as against this as some foreigners on here as Blizzard seems to be taking Korean feedback seriously and if all the Koreans were as against this as you were, I don't think Blizzard would do it.
it removes an aspect of stress from the game, how exactly is that not changing the strategy of the game? i really don't see what is so ridiculous about what i have said, could you please explain?
"...which adds strategic considerations to their build and macro decisions." is another way of saying i'm gonna hit my keys differently or use a different method (like boxing larvae, which i'll add, a lot of high end players use) or changing screen focus for literally one-and-a-half seconds so i don't mess it up. does it really add anything that you make your overlords in a different way?
far hotkeys as an "aspect of stress" is a cute way of framing something that's anachronistic. most of these arguments concern foreigners because we're considered that. koreans come into the argument [for us] because of the little guy inside that wants the best of the best for us. that's like taking a celebrity's endorsement for a product. most of us will never reach that level or could even consider it. we don't really know what they think unless we knew both the language and could ask them personally.
for the casual player looking to get better over small spurts, the hotkeys make no sense and impact the game in a negative way. this is coming from someone who is an elitist and thinks that what's best for the koreans is what's best for me.
if some guy was looking me in the eye and trying to explain/argue that cross-keyboard hotkeys were good, in 2017, i wouldn't be able to take them seriously. the genre is dying and we're trying to make the game hard (and i say this because there's an opportunity to make it easier) to "keep the complexity", please. so what are left handed players supposed to do?
i'd rather the situation that we have rebinds and most new players who use the feature will never experience the difficulties and hotkey problems that some of us went through, than for our old guard to have a persisting edge for having put so much time already into learning muscle memory and practicing around the keys because they had no other choice. shouldn't that edge predominately be in experience and mentality in self-improvement?
i think what you're actually concerned about is reaching a good level of play with lesser practice, and this has been an issue since replays were an added feature to the game. it's an issue in any game where a set of players practice something and someone else is watching or studying you. they catch up because what you're doing is actually understandable and can be replicated directly, leaving further improvements to the gameplay directly to make the builds (and counter builds) even better.
all i can say is the game will still have very high basic mechanical requirements, to the point that most casuals won't use more than a couple hotkeys anyway, but will feel incentive to at least try with rebindings. you can try and tell them that they already have it easy, but all it is is an old fart barking over a younger player who just enjoys the same game you have been.
no, what i'm concerned with is there being a general skill reduction in the game for next to no reason other than "eh let's throw it in," with people defending it by screaming elitism because they can't hit the o key to make overlords or saying things like "the genre is dying, we need new players." if the scene lived through sc2's antics it can certainly live through this by not compromising core game mechanics. like, a new player who is only willing to play broodwar if there are rebindable hotkeys isn't a "broodwar" player, they're only someone looking for a simplified version of the game... again, why is the game being compromised for something like that? it's a less obvious version of mbs/unlimited select/auto mine and it is making the game easier, so it just shouldn't be there period
You might not need to hit 5so6so7so8so, but maybe you need to do 5sz6sz7sz8so, or 5sz6sz7so8sz depending on game conditions.. and if you end up missing the ‘o’ key on any of those rotations, and don’t notice, you are supply blocked, and will be behind as a result of your lack of practice/fluency with your hotkeys. Thus, you don’t just need to know “hey, ‘o’ is overlord,” you need to be ready to execute and allocate your practice accordingly. However, if you can just use a grid hotkey layout, I think your overlord would end up being ‘e,’ which even the noobest player could hit with near 100% accuracy on all hatchery macro rotations.. 5se6se7se8se,5se6sz7sz8sz, 5sz6se7sz8se, so you’re artificially a better player than a 1.16.1 player in that regard. You no longer have to really worry about fucking up your macro because Blizzard gave you an out in the form of rebinding overlord from ‘o’ to ‘e.’ I have been playing broodwar since release and I still miss ‘o’ at least once a game in the mentioned macro rotations, so I can only imagine that newer zergs have the same issue as well, which adds strategic considerations to their build and macro decisions.
What you wrote before this...spot on in my opinion. This quoted part is where we totally deviate.
I don't think it's any more difficult to 4so5so6so than it is to 4se5se6s, or to 0p9p8p than it is to 4e5e6e. If you have accuracy problems hitting o, you're going to have accuracy problems hitting e.
The only hotkey I can really see there being a potential, noticable difference from are ss for zerg, and o for terran. You already talked about tanks, and trying to go fast it's sometimes possible to double tap s and make extra scourge when you don't want them.
Out of curiosity, can any think of pro level games where a player accidentally massed a huge scourge flock or clearly unsieged at a time he absolutely DID NOT want to?
if the scene lived through sc2's antics it can certainly live through this by not compromising core game mechanics. like, a new player who is only willing to play broodwar if there are rebindable hotkeys isn't a "broodwar" player, they're only someone looking for a simplified version of the game... again, why is the game being compromised for something like that? it's a less obvious version of mbs/unlimited select/auto mine and it is making the game easier, so it just shouldn't be there period
This is the other aspect where people are going to have legitimate philosophical disagreement. Not everyone is going to feel that hitting hotkeys a specific set of hotkeys is a core BW mechanics. The other argument would probably be that the ability to press keys accurate is integral to BW, but having a pre-defined set of hotkeys to press is not.
On May 29 2017 01:47 404AlphaSquad wrote: Players have won sc2 tournaments with BW hotkeys. Hotkeys dont change balance. period.
Although that's a nice observation, your conclusion just does not follow. The facts are facts, and anything involving asymmetry between races during gameplay affects balance to some degree. All we can argue about is whether or not the effect is relevant at this point.
On May 28 2017 05:44 ninazerg wrote: hit f2, drag a box over larvae, hit "o"
On May 28 2017 05:16 ldv wrote:
On May 28 2017 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
your responses are so silly and pretentious its impossible to even reason with you.
This coming from, inarguably, the most elitist and pretentious member of the entire forum. I'm bamboozled. You also (unsurprisingly) seemed to miss the post where I rescinded my statement and said it was a stupid thing to say. But, nobody really expects you to read the content before throwing your attitude into the ring.
FlashFTW is not pretentious. He is a good guy and does a lot for the Brood War community.
Here's why he's saying what he said: your argument ("if you had >80 apm") can be basically boiled down to, "You're a noob so you don't understand". Then, once it was clarified that I may understand the game better than what you initially thought, you say:
On May 28 2017 12:41 ldv wrote: But I think my argument is still valid, especially because I consider the only arguments against hotkey rebinding to be utterly nonsensical.
If we go back to your 'argument', it was that playing video games poses a high risk of injury to one's wrists. I replied that people can and should take breaks to alleviate the stress, and I could've even made the argument that playing past the point of wrists hurting could be counter-productive to progamers trying to get good practice.
But let's take Lee Young Ho's wrist injury and say he's probably the most focused player, and that it's impossible to get him to quit a practice session because of his sheer mental focus. The arm that needed surgery was his right arm, which would be for his mouse, not his keyboard. Therefore, doing a key re-bind would do nothing to prevent that injury from occurring. Additionally, a majority of progamers are not dealing with wrist injuries, despite using their keyboards more than anyone else. The risk of injury people isn't any different than that of a typist, or software engineer, or anyone who regularly uses a keyboard a high pace. Furthermore, there is no data done in any study that suggests changing hotkeys or changing keybinds would reduce the number of players suffering from wrist issues. Such a study would likely take 5-10 years, and so any evidence pertaining to a change in keybinds alleviating injury risk is purely anecdotal.
Again, I am not against changing keybinds.
But the very first post you make is entirely non-constructive, where you call Endymion "pretentious", and now you're saying FlashFTW is "pretentious". Who is not pretentious in your book? Only people who agree with everything you say?
On May 28 2017 05:44 ninazerg wrote: hit f2, drag a box over larvae, hit "o"
On May 28 2017 05:16 ldv wrote:
On May 28 2017 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
your responses are so silly and pretentious its impossible to even reason with you.
This coming from, inarguably, the most elitist and pretentious member of the entire forum. I'm bamboozled. You also (unsurprisingly) seemed to miss the post where I rescinded my statement and said it was a stupid thing to say. But, nobody really expects you to read the content before throwing your attitude into the ring.
FlashFTW is not pretentious. He is a good guy and does a lot for the Brood War community.
Here's why he's saying what he said: your argument ("if you had >80 apm") can be basically boiled down to, "You're a noob so you don't understand". Then, once it was clarified that I may understand the game better than what you initially thought, you say:
On May 28 2017 12:41 ldv wrote: But I think my argument is still valid, especially because I consider the only arguments against hotkey rebinding to be utterly nonsensical.
If we go back to your 'argument', it was that playing video games poses a high risk of injury to one's wrists. I replied that people can and should take breaks to alleviate the stress, and I could've even made the argument that playing past the point of wrists hurting could be counter-productive to progamers trying to get good practice.
But let's take Lee Young Ho's wrist injury and say he's probably the most focused player, and that it's impossible to get him to quit a practice session because of his sheer mental focus. The arm that needed surgery was his right arm, which would be for his mouse, not his keyboard. Therefore, doing a key re-bind would do nothing to prevent that injury from occurring. Additionally, a majority of progamers are not dealing with wrist injuries, despite using their keyboards more than anyone else. The risk of injury people isn't any different than that of a typist, or software engineer, or anyone who regularly uses a keyboard a high pace. Furthermore, there is no data done in any study that suggests changing hotkeys or changing keybinds would reduce the number of players suffering from wrist issues. Such a study would likely take 5-10 years, and so any evidence pertaining to a change in keybinds alleviating injury risk is purely anecdotal.
Again, I am not against changing keybinds.
But the very first post you make is entirely non-constructive, where you call Endymion "pretentious", and now you're saying FlashFTW is "pretentious". Who is not pretentious in your book? Only people who agree with everything you say?
Being against any changes to a 20 year old game to preserve what I believe to be an extremely warped sense of 'balance' requirements is pretentious, in my opinion. And I know what FlashFTW was referring to, but he has a reputation himself.
On May 28 2017 05:44 ninazerg wrote: hit f2, drag a box over larvae, hit "o"
On May 28 2017 05:16 ldv wrote:
On May 28 2017 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
your responses are so silly and pretentious its impossible to even reason with you.
This coming from, inarguably, the most elitist and pretentious member of the entire forum. I'm bamboozled. You also (unsurprisingly) seemed to miss the post where I rescinded my statement and said it was a stupid thing to say. But, nobody really expects you to read the content before throwing your attitude into the ring.
FlashFTW is not pretentious. He is a good guy and does a lot for the Brood War community.
Here's why he's saying what he said: your argument ("if you had >80 apm") can be basically boiled down to, "You're a noob so you don't understand". Then, once it was clarified that I may understand the game better than what you initially thought, you say:
On May 28 2017 12:41 ldv wrote: But I think my argument is still valid, especially because I consider the only arguments against hotkey rebinding to be utterly nonsensical.
If we go back to your 'argument', it was that playing video games poses a high risk of injury to one's wrists. I replied that people can and should take breaks to alleviate the stress, and I could've even made the argument that playing past the point of wrists hurting could be counter-productive to progamers trying to get good practice.
But let's take Lee Young Ho's wrist injury and say he's probably the most focused player, and that it's impossible to get him to quit a practice session because of his sheer mental focus. The arm that needed surgery was his right arm, which would be for his mouse, not his keyboard. Therefore, doing a key re-bind would do nothing to prevent that injury from occurring. Additionally, a majority of progamers are not dealing with wrist injuries, despite using their keyboards more than anyone else. The risk of injury people isn't any different than that of a typist, or software engineer, or anyone who regularly uses a keyboard a high pace. Furthermore, there is no data done in any study that suggests changing hotkeys or changing keybinds would reduce the number of players suffering from wrist issues. Such a study would likely take 5-10 years, and so any evidence pertaining to a change in keybinds alleviating injury risk is purely anecdotal.
Again, I am not against changing keybinds.
But the very first post you make is entirely non-constructive, where you call Endymion "pretentious", and now you're saying FlashFTW is "pretentious". Who is not pretentious in your book? Only people who agree with everything you say?
Being against any changes to a 20 year old game to preserve what I believe to be an extremely warped sense of 'balance' requirements is pretentious, in my opinion. And I know what FlashFTW was referring to, but he has a reputation himself.
Being against any changes to a 20 year old game just because you don't want it to change could indeed be pretentious.
That's not what is happening here. Endymion has laid out a logical argument about why a particular change would not be good. There is absolutely nothing pretentious about that. If you disagree with his conclusion, explain why. Are his assumptions wrong? Is his logical stemming from those assumptions wrong? Explain why?
Responding to someone, especially someone who has laid out a crafted argument, with "you're pretentious is obnoxious, unconvincing, and serves no purpose. In other words, it is constructive feedback that is a waste of everyone's time.
On May 28 2017 05:44 ninazerg wrote: hit f2, drag a box over larvae, hit "o"
On May 28 2017 05:16 ldv wrote:
On May 28 2017 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
your responses are so silly and pretentious its impossible to even reason with you.
This coming from, inarguably, the most elitist and pretentious member of the entire forum. I'm bamboozled. You also (unsurprisingly) seemed to miss the post where I rescinded my statement and said it was a stupid thing to say. But, nobody really expects you to read the content before throwing your attitude into the ring.
FlashFTW is not pretentious. He is a good guy and does a lot for the Brood War community.
Here's why he's saying what he said: your argument ("if you had >80 apm") can be basically boiled down to, "You're a noob so you don't understand". Then, once it was clarified that I may understand the game better than what you initially thought, you say:
On May 28 2017 12:41 ldv wrote: But I think my argument is still valid, especially because I consider the only arguments against hotkey rebinding to be utterly nonsensical.
If we go back to your 'argument', it was that playing video games poses a high risk of injury to one's wrists. I replied that people can and should take breaks to alleviate the stress, and I could've even made the argument that playing past the point of wrists hurting could be counter-productive to progamers trying to get good practice.
But let's take Lee Young Ho's wrist injury and say he's probably the most focused player, and that it's impossible to get him to quit a practice session because of his sheer mental focus. The arm that needed surgery was his right arm, which would be for his mouse, not his keyboard. Therefore, doing a key re-bind would do nothing to prevent that injury from occurring. Additionally, a majority of progamers are not dealing with wrist injuries, despite using their keyboards more than anyone else. The risk of injury people isn't any different than that of a typist, or software engineer, or anyone who regularly uses a keyboard a high pace. Furthermore, there is no data done in any study that suggests changing hotkeys or changing keybinds would reduce the number of players suffering from wrist issues. Such a study would likely take 5-10 years, and so any evidence pertaining to a change in keybinds alleviating injury risk is purely anecdotal.
Again, I am not against changing keybinds.
But the very first post you make is entirely non-constructive, where you call Endymion "pretentious", and now you're saying FlashFTW is "pretentious". Who is not pretentious in your book? Only people who agree with everything you say?
Being against any changes to a 20 year old game to preserve what I believe to be an extremely warped sense of 'balance' requirements is pretentious, in my opinion. And I know what FlashFTW was referring to, but he has a reputation himself.
Being against any changes to a 20 year old game just because you don't want it to change could indeed be pretentious.
That's not what is happening here. Endymion has laid out a logical argument about why a particular change would not be good. There is absolutely nothing pretentious about that. If you disagree with his conclusion, explain why. Are his assumptions wrong? Is his logical stemming from those assumptions wrong? Explain why?
Responding to someone, especially someone who has laid out a crafted argument, with "you're pretentious is obnoxious, unconvincing, and serves no purpose. In other words, it is constructive feedback that is a waste of everyone's time.
I've already explained why, and you're warping my words and putting words in my mouth. I didn't say "because i don't want to change it" so if you want to have a real conversation about it let's start by not telling me what I'm saying.
I totally get rebinding hotkeys changes the strategic and execution aspect of broodwar
But I really don't think rebinding keys is that big of a deal. The other aspects of broodwar are much more interesting, and the key positioning of broodwar is probably one of the least interesting aspects of the game
I mean, we had a lot of fun studying different progamer hotkey setups and stuff, but then you watch Stork fpvods lol
Just let people have rebinds. Nobody is going to be like "I lost because my opponent is using better keybindings than me" lmao
On May 28 2017 05:44 ninazerg wrote: hit f2, drag a box over larvae, hit "o"
On May 28 2017 05:16 ldv wrote:
On May 28 2017 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote: [quote]
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
your responses are so silly and pretentious its impossible to even reason with you.
This coming from, inarguably, the most elitist and pretentious member of the entire forum. I'm bamboozled. You also (unsurprisingly) seemed to miss the post where I rescinded my statement and said it was a stupid thing to say. But, nobody really expects you to read the content before throwing your attitude into the ring.
FlashFTW is not pretentious. He is a good guy and does a lot for the Brood War community.
Here's why he's saying what he said: your argument ("if you had >80 apm") can be basically boiled down to, "You're a noob so you don't understand". Then, once it was clarified that I may understand the game better than what you initially thought, you say:
On May 28 2017 12:41 ldv wrote: But I think my argument is still valid, especially because I consider the only arguments against hotkey rebinding to be utterly nonsensical.
If we go back to your 'argument', it was that playing video games poses a high risk of injury to one's wrists. I replied that people can and should take breaks to alleviate the stress, and I could've even made the argument that playing past the point of wrists hurting could be counter-productive to progamers trying to get good practice.
But let's take Lee Young Ho's wrist injury and say he's probably the most focused player, and that it's impossible to get him to quit a practice session because of his sheer mental focus. The arm that needed surgery was his right arm, which would be for his mouse, not his keyboard. Therefore, doing a key re-bind would do nothing to prevent that injury from occurring. Additionally, a majority of progamers are not dealing with wrist injuries, despite using their keyboards more than anyone else. The risk of injury people isn't any different than that of a typist, or software engineer, or anyone who regularly uses a keyboard a high pace. Furthermore, there is no data done in any study that suggests changing hotkeys or changing keybinds would reduce the number of players suffering from wrist issues. Such a study would likely take 5-10 years, and so any evidence pertaining to a change in keybinds alleviating injury risk is purely anecdotal.
Again, I am not against changing keybinds.
But the very first post you make is entirely non-constructive, where you call Endymion "pretentious", and now you're saying FlashFTW is "pretentious". Who is not pretentious in your book? Only people who agree with everything you say?
Being against any changes to a 20 year old game to preserve what I believe to be an extremely warped sense of 'balance' requirements is pretentious, in my opinion. And I know what FlashFTW was referring to, but he has a reputation himself.
Being against any changes to a 20 year old game just because you don't want it to change could indeed be pretentious.
That's not what is happening here. Endymion has laid out a logical argument about why a particular change would not be good. There is absolutely nothing pretentious about that. If you disagree with his conclusion, explain why. Are his assumptions wrong? Is his logical stemming from those assumptions wrong? Explain why?
Responding to someone, especially someone who has laid out a crafted argument, with "you're pretentious is obnoxious, unconvincing, and serves no purpose. In other words, it is constructive feedback that is a waste of everyone's time.
I've already explained why, and you're warping my words and putting words in my mouth. I didn't say "because i don't want to change it" so if you want to have a real conversation about it let's start by not telling me what I'm saying.
I think you may have misread what L_master wrote, because your response to his post makes no sense unless you think he said "Being against any changes to a 20 year old game just because you don't want it to change could indeed be pretentious." towards you as the topic of the sentence when he meant that Endymion or someone else COULD be pretentious for said reasons, but that in this case, Endymion made an argument for keeping keybinds the old-school way.
The only thing you've said that resembles an argument is "rapid side movements are bad for your wrist".
If you really want to change the hotkeys, you can already do that by getting a custom keyboard with the keys in different places. I don't know if any programers do that, but the potential is already there if it's a real advantage. Seems like rebinding just makes them available for us casuals that aren't going to buy a special keyboard just for a slight advantage.
On May 29 2017 06:39 CecilSunkure wrote: @BrTarolg totally agreed, but what did you mean about Stork fpvod? I'm intrigued link please?
super low apm for a progamer lol
hes just super efficient at everything
i think he has tons of fpvods on youtube if you just search for stork
I find it very entertaining when he sets his rally points, he just sets all his gateways in the same place and never changes it haha And he also does it the slow way
Have you ever reviewed your key pressing? Do you ever just practice key pressing? Do you have a ruler like Flash? Do you always sit at the same distance and height? If you're still missing o/i/u every game I'd argue you haven't or aren't practicing properly or either your chair-desk-keyboard-monitor setup could be improved. I bet any serious piano player could tell you all about why 'form and technique' matter even if the only goal was to strike the right keys.
I'm all for allowing to change hotkeys, because there are already different hotkeys with multiple languaged BW. Plus anyone with a little effort could already be using custom - easier - hotkeys in 1.16.1 without you being able to tell! I'd much rather level the playground on that regard. (It will also lower the entry level for new blood, which BW needs.)
I don't know if custom or grid hotkeys are already active with the current patch. But if they are or once they will be active, I'd like to tell every BW player to stop being lazy and prideful. It is not that hard to relearn hotkeys as long as you aren't over 60 years old. I bet you'll end up having more fun in the long run, because you've likely neglected to improve your current key pressing anyway - which leads to your subpar accuracy.
This likely isn't going to make me very popular but a lot of veteran BW players play like monkeys and try to find valid arguments that lets them keep playing like monkeys.
It's time to break out your comfort zone and improve.
On May 28 2017 03:53 blade55555 wrote: Rebinding hotkeys is changing strategy? Man that is so overblown it's ridiculous at this point. I would completely understand this if MBS or instead of 12 there were 24 units allowed to be selected or something like that. But Hotkeys? I promise you this isn't going to change the game in anyway lol. I bet a month or 2 after the hotkeys are in you won't notice a difference in player skill and the game will look the same exact as it has.
Obviously Koreans aren't as against this as some foreigners on here as Blizzard seems to be taking Korean feedback seriously and if all the Koreans were as against this as you were, I don't think Blizzard would do it.
it removes an aspect of stress from the game, how exactly is that not changing the strategy of the game? i really don't see what is so ridiculous about what i have said, could you please explain?
"...which adds strategic considerations to their build and macro decisions." is another way of saying i'm gonna hit my keys differently or use a different method (like boxing larvae, which i'll add, a lot of high end players use) or changing screen focus for literally one-and-a-half seconds so i don't mess it up. does it really add anything that you make your overlords in a different way?
far hotkeys as an "aspect of stress" is a cute way of framing something that's anachronistic. most of these arguments concern foreigners because we're considered that. koreans come into the argument [for us] because of the little guy inside that wants the best of the best for us. that's like taking a celebrity's endorsement for a product. most of us will never reach that level or could even consider it. we don't really know what they think unless we knew both the language and could ask them personally.
for the casual player looking to get better over small spurts, the hotkeys make no sense and impact the game in a negative way. this is coming from someone who is an elitist and thinks that what's best for the koreans is what's best for me.
if some guy was looking me in the eye and trying to explain/argue that cross-keyboard hotkeys were good, in 2017, i wouldn't be able to take them seriously. the genre is dying and we're trying to make the game hard (and i say this because there's an opportunity to make it easier) to "keep the complexity", please. so what are left handed players supposed to do?
i'd rather the situation that we have rebinds and most new players who use the feature will never experience the difficulties and hotkey problems that some of us went through, than for our old guard to have a persisting edge for having put so much time already into learning muscle memory and practicing around the keys because they had no other choice. shouldn't that edge predominately be in experience and mentality in self-improvement?
i think what you're actually concerned about is reaching a good level of play with lesser practice, and this has been an issue since replays were an added feature to the game. it's an issue in any game where a set of players practice something and someone else is watching or studying you. they catch up because what you're doing is actually understandable and can be replicated directly, leaving further improvements to the gameplay directly to make the builds (and counter builds) even better.
all i can say is the game will still have very high basic mechanical requirements, to the point that most casuals won't use more than a couple hotkeys anyway, but will feel incentive to at least try with rebindings. you can try and tell them that they already have it easy, but all it is is an old fart barking over a younger player who just enjoys the same game you have been.
no, what i'm concerned with is there being a general skill reduction in the game for next to no reason other than "eh let's throw it in," with people defending it by screaming elitism because they can't hit the o key to make overlords or saying things like "the genre is dying, we need new players." if the scene lived through sc2's antics it can certainly live through this by not compromising core game mechanics. like, a new player who is only willing to play broodwar if there are rebindable hotkeys isn't a "broodwar" player, they're only someone looking for a simplified version of the game... again, why is the game being compromised for something like that? it's a less obvious version of mbs/unlimited select/auto mine and it is making the game easier, so it just shouldn't be there period
you do not need to be concerned about those people screaming elitism, because you already hold an opinion on the matter. if you want people to be able to better accept that the 20 y/o hotkeys have an irreplaceable role/feel in the game, you also need to be able to accept that the game was not made perfect and that there were and are ways to still improve on it. this includes the key assignments themselves. i can definitely see that the way everything has been set up with the game has led to the game being as beautiful and complex as it is today, but again, most people will never see this complexity, nor experience, nor would they feel the motivation to. they want to play to have fun, not have the game play them or make things unnecessarily more stressful.
the age old argument from a veteran is to 'get good'. perhaps this is a way of saying, 'go through the same general journey that i did to get to where i am in player skill and experience, because it is worth it and it is part of the game and why it means so much to so many more people.' that would be valid, but this is not exactly how new players will experience the game in the coming years; they will come and go because of waning interest. this is not how games are created or designed today, and that is because people have moved on and learned from their mistakes as developers and now need to find a different way of drumming up lasting interest and revenue through their game. one major step: accessibility, considering burden of knowledge.
if this game is going to take off in 2017 for a new generation of players, it's going to sustain it's playerbase outside of korea where interest, culture, or playerbase is different. this game is living... but how many of us actually play it as our main game anymore? i suspect even the old guard outside of the most hardcore or steel-headed players do not play this game for sheer fun. i'm not just talking about rebinds, but the game does not have a lot to help new players delve in. it's pretty stubborn to say that it will survive because it already has been doing so. in a way that can be viewed as settling with stagnation and us simply being a consumer for what content the korean scene might create for us. don't you want the game to do better than having a few dozen game lobbies?
back to the idea of stubbornness and going down the same line of logic, in this day and age, if you had a game with absolutely no way of reassigning important functions, i guarantee that you'd be turning away players at the door. remapping is virtually present (even in a general sense) in nearly every single game out there. you would possibly be turning away "not bw players" who would/could be more of a player than you are; the preconception that they're not worthy, or they wouldn't be capable from what they've shown (in their very reasonable expectations of the game) already. from what i've heard Hitler was turned away at an art academy. but in the case of BW, it could be because of a case of no compromise. no-rebinds enthusiasts or whoever, go ahead and make a hotkey tutorial for all the budding starcraft players out there. or (rhetorically) is that again another nono as they need to experience and learn on their own to truly appreciate or enjoy starcraft?
it's not "eh, let's throw it in", it's something along the lines of "why the hell not?" i really, still don't understand how it's considered a compromise and if it were, the game is being compromised for how even if players have genuine interest in the game, they can play an an additional way that they'd like. is it more or less skill that quickcast exists in mobas? should a game remove it to require more mechanical skill from each player, and add seconds to gameplay, or different decision making in very few select cases?
is it really so big a deal that we'll see shifts in winrate? dude. i'd rather see the results of what happens than to erase the possibility of them being used in the first place. if you really needed to, you could restrict rebindings in tournament settings for the players it might actually affect, because those same players will then be practicing on legacy keys the entire way through anyway, even if they were previously considering changing their method of play with diff. keys.
full honestly, i think the new graphics updates could affect the core gameplay more, lol. again, what do left-handed players do for SCBW? i honestly don't know, but i can tell you that for the players i play with and do know that with other games that even have remapping options, what they're doing is compromising in order to eventually find a more comfortable way of playing.
On May 28 2017 03:53 blade55555 wrote: Rebinding hotkeys is changing strategy? Man that is so overblown it's ridiculous at this point. I would completely understand this if MBS or instead of 12 there were 24 units allowed to be selected or something like that. But Hotkeys? I promise you this isn't going to change the game in anyway lol. I bet a month or 2 after the hotkeys are in you won't notice a difference in player skill and the game will look the same exact as it has.
Obviously Koreans aren't as against this as some foreigners on here as Blizzard seems to be taking Korean feedback seriously and if all the Koreans were as against this as you were, I don't think Blizzard would do it.
Seconded. Having played a decent number of games including BW and SC2, I believe that mouse accuracy is the crux of execution in Brood War, moreso than any other game I've ever played. Speed and accuracy of keyboard inputs is definitely important too, but it plays a very very very minor role in the actual speed and ability of a player.
I always bring this up, but there was a quasi-scientific attempt in SC2 to create the PERFECT keyboard layout (The Core) which more or less had 0 impact on the skill of the players using it. AND AGAIN, it's not like people haven't been using custom hotkeys or different language settings to get around this problem before. Not everyone uses pure BW hotkeys the way they were designed.
Newer players may have a slightly easier time pressing buttons which may flatten out the skill level in D/D- levels some because eeking out an extra 10 APM is gigantic if you're APM is typically 60-80 to begin with. Custom hotkeys will likely change nothing at the mid to top level.
On May 28 2017 16:10 ETisME wrote: visual clarity difference and different aspect ratio that makes for wider FOV are ok?
Omg, muta micro is going to be so much easier, not even exaggerating. I look forward to that as a Zerg player, but I imagine some people might not....
On May 29 2017 11:35 Peeano wrote: Have you ever reviewed your key pressing? Do you ever just practice key pressing? Do you have a ruler like Flash? Do you always sit at the same distance and height? If you're still missing o/i/u every game I'd argue you haven't or aren't practicing properly or either your chair-desk-keyboard-monitor setup could be improved. I bet any serious piano player could tell you all about why 'form and technique' matter even if the only goal was to strike the right keys.
I'm all for allowing to change hotkeys, because there are already different hotkeys with multiple languaged BW. Plus anyone with a little effort could already be using custom - easier - hotkeys in 1.16.1 without you being able to tell! I'd much rather level the playground on that regard. (It will also lower the entry level for new blood, which BW needs.)
I don't know if custom or grid hotkeys are already active with the current patch. But if they are or once they will be active, I'd like to tell every BW player to stop being lazy and prideful. It is not that hard to relearn hotkeys as long as you aren't over 60 years old. I bet you'll end up having more fun in the long run, because you've likely neglected to improve your current key pressing anyway - which leads to your subpar accuracy.
This likely isn't going to make me very popular but a lot of veteran BW players play like monkeys and try to find valid arguments that lets them keep playing like monkeys.
It's time to break out your comfort zone and improve.
As a former Peeano major (hehe), I have no problem moving my hands around the keyboard, so I'm not sure if I can relate fully to those who have trouble jumping around. Posture is mostly about just preventing injury to the spine and wrists, but finger acrobatics do need to be practiced in isolation. One of the tips that Day9 gave out at one point was to unplug your keyboard (or have a second keyboard) while watching games and just practice some of your macro cycles (5m6m7m8m9t0v or 5sz6sz7sz8sz9so for instance). I've done this a few times and it's helped me a ton with learning the exact distance I need to move and position my hand, and in isolation, it's given me a way to slow down the motions and find more efficient ways of doing it (using my pinky, ring finger, or even my thumb in some instances).
Even if you rebind the hotkeys to something more efficient like 5a6a7a8a9o0p (Terran example above) or something like grid with 5q6q7q8q9w0q, it's still equally as challenging and requires practice. The only legitimate hotkey rebinding that *could* have a significant impact is moving patrol and hold position around. Mutalisk micro is very challenging in part because shifting between your "home row" of 1-5asdf and H/P is very difficult to do quickly without flubbing your macro or your micro. So I can see that argument, but I still think it's difficult to really tell without actually trying it out first.
Changing hotkeys is going to change the game by definition, but I think most people are blowing this out of proportion.
I don't give hotkey setup any more importance than monitor choice, mouse, keyboards with macro keys, chair comfortableness, etc. Are we defining the setup people can play in too? Cause I feel just as uneasy if somebody changes my mouse sensibility or my monitor position, than if someone changes some of my hotkeys.
Up to this point, lots of people on iccup played with custom hotkeys, keyboards with F keys in different positions and so on. I never felt cheated because of that. I know people who played with the spanish version of BW which has different hotkeys. Is that cheating? I never saw anyone analyze hotkey for other languages, probably because they don't affect that game that much, or people don't care.
What sets the game apart is not what hotkeys you press, but the muscle memory and the training to get it done over and over without giving it a thought. All these arguments feel to me as if people are angry they had to do with dumb hotkeys, are too committed on those to learn new ones, and don't want other people setting up comfortable hotkeys.
TBH, I feel at the level the 95% of us could accomplish, it doesn't change much. If you ever do, and compete at a high level (like WCG was at the time, not sure if there's anything for foreigners right now), the tournament itself could enforce certain setups or "default hotkeys".
I still think the impact of adding this is minimal, and you are alienating lots of people from discovering the game by having such a strict definition of "changing the game". I think widescreen support will have a much bigger impact and no one seems mad about that.
"Easy Special Moves" is an episode in David Sirlin's series of podcasts and it's very ontopic! In this episode Sirlin and MrGPhantome talk about "easy special moves" vs "arbitrarily" hard execution.
For those unfamiliar with Sirlin's viewpoint on this topic: He generally seems to be of the opinion that when it comes to uncontested skills, execution should always be as easy as possible, and the real gameplay that we should care about is all ingame decision making (although that's just my second hand interpretation).
I don't agree but he does make some nice valid points and it's worth a listen! I especially enjoyed the part about "cake baking". I think uncontested skills can be very fun, and rewarding, and are often worth having! As I said in post #3 I think it's on a case by case basis and blindly going with either extreme is bad (eliminating uncontested skills vs lots of really hard uncontested skills).
Imagine everybody was forced to play with some setup where you have to have your keyboard strapped to your back while playing starcraft. Essentially the same as having awkward unrebindable hotkeys; just taken to a greater extreme. I'm sure you'd agree that's way too annoying and not worth having! Allowing people to unstrap the keyboard from their backs does lower the skill ceiling however! But if you ask me being able to unstrap is better and really doesn't take anything away. How much cake-baking do you want in your game? Again, if you ask me it really just depends on a case by case basis and rebindable keys are completely fine. Are you really against rebindable keys?
*Also I think IntoTheWow put it best and I completely agree with him on this topic
On May 29 2017 23:13 IntoTheWow wrote: Changing hotkeys is going to change the game by definition, but I think most people are blowing this out of proportion.
I don't give hotkey setup any more importance than monitor choice, mouse, keyboards with macro keys, chair comfortableness, etc. Are we defining the setup people can play in too? Cause I feel just as uneasy if somebody changes my mouse sensibility or my monitor position, than if someone changes some of my hotkeys.
Up to this point, lots of people on iccup played with custom hotkeys, keyboards with F keys in different positions and so on. I never felt cheated because of that. I know people who played with the spanish version of BW which has different hotkeys. Is that cheating? I never saw anyone analyze hotkey for other languages, probably because they don't affect that game that much, or people don't care.
What sets the game apart is not what hotkeys you press, but the muscle memory and the training to get it done over and over without giving it a thought. All these arguments feel to me as if people are angry they had to do with dumb hotkeys, are too committed on those to learn new ones, and don't want other people setting up comfortable hotkeys.
TBH, I feel at the level the 95% of us could accomplish, it doesn't change much. If you ever do, and compete at a high level (like WCG was at the time, not sure if there's anything for foreigners right now), the tournament itself could enforce certain setups or "default hotkeys".
I still think the impact of adding this is minimal, and you are alienating lots of people from discovering the game by having such a strict definition of "changing the game". I think widescreen support will have a much bigger impact and no one seems mad about that.
i think making easier hotkeys will make the game much easier for some people, but at the highest level it isn't going to make much difference. occasionally you might see someone make a mistake that they wouldn't have if they had been using easier hotkeys, and rarely you might semi-attribute a loss to that mistake.
i'm a big proponent of quickcast in dota, and i have seen times that normal-casters have messed up where quickcasters would have succeeded. at the end of the day, it's no more a bigger deal than any other misclick or mis-micro, out of thousands of misclicks or mis-micros.
i do wonder if one race will benefit far more than another from easier hotkeys, and without a doubt i think it's something we should keep an eye on. ultimately, i don't want to play a game that doesn't have customisable hotkeys. i think non-customisable hotkeys is retarded. so, if it is one day deemed that gameplay balance tweaks need to be made to permit them then i would be open to that
Again, i might be ignorant because i only play bw instead of watching, so please correct me if i'm wrong here: didn't all of the major korean tournies enforce players using only the english version of starcraft to standardize hotkeys across the language versions?? otherwise they would have just used KR for convenience sake. in all of the kr pc bangs that i have been i have never once seen a kr version of broodwar installed
and again, i don't consider attracting new players to be a compromise for changing core mechanics. i think that most people are undervaluing the additional speed and accuracy that you'll get with a core hotkey setup in broodwar (again, which is exactly why blizzard isn't allowing people to change fkeys or control group keys). why then are they drawing the distinction at unit producing keys or attack/patrol (although i have heard conflicting reports on that, some people say that attack/patrol/hold position won't be changeable for the balance consideration reasons). I feel if some keys are considered too important to be changed, then none of them should be allowed to be changed. like.... then someone could say "well.. you can move ultralisk because you generally make less on average than overlords but overlords have to stay at 'o' because they're important over there and have a material impact of balance."
and yes people have been doing it on iccup, and i think it's scummy to do it there too. i consider it on the same level as maphacking tbh, because there it's certainly providing you with an in-game benefit that i need a third party program to gain.
Ultimately, I think even if you believe that this might affect gameplay, it's a reasonable concession to make for the health of the game's population. I don't think it's worth denouncing it. I certainly won't, and probably wouldn't unless an important from the scene says its legitimately detrimental.
So what about my friends who play with the french version and have to press S for probe or S for overlords ? What about me who play with a non-qwerty keyboard and have to press Q for attack or ; for marines ? You are pretending that the english hotkeys on a qwerty layout are the core of the game. No, like you said, it's really not a huge deal. I kind of know what you mean, I'm a BW player myself who doesn't want any change in the game. But this? Who cares? It won't change anything. Being used to press E instead of O takes one week. I press O, P or M without even thinking about it, and I'm bad. When I suck with my macro, it's not because I've to press one key instead of an other. It is because my multitask isn't good enough.
Yeah pressing A for marines is comfortable, but it won't make you win against a player who is used to crush you.
Hotkey binding is only positive : it will bring more new players. BW veterans won't change their hotkeys.
On May 30 2017 17:35 AbouSV wrote: It has been reported again a few post above yours that remapping was allowed in WCGs.
im not talking about WCGs, i'm talking about OSL etc, korean tournies
On May 30 2017 17:44 lestye wrote: Ultimately, I think even if you believe that this might affect gameplay, it's a reasonable concession to make for the health of the game's population. I don't think it's worth denouncing it. I certainly won't, and probably wouldn't unless an important from the scene says its legitimately detrimental.
it's fine if you think differently and don't care about hotkeys, but it's incredibly unhealthy if only "important people from the scene" can have an actual impact on the game given how many "important people from the scene" are on blizzard's payroll in one form or another (who are incentived by the game making as much money as possible, not by the game being as good as possible)
On May 30 2017 18:50 Glioburd wrote: So what about my friends who play with the french version and have to press S for probe or S for overlords ? What about me who play with a non-qwerty keyboard and have to press Q for attack or ; for marines ? You are pretending that the english hotkeys on a qwerty layout are the core of the game. No, like you said, it's really not a huge deal. I kind of know what you mean, I'm a BW player myself who doesn't want any change in the game. But this? Who cares? It won't change anything. Being used to press E instead of O takes one week. I press O, P or M without even thinking about it, and I'm bad. When I suck with my macro, it's not because I've to press one key instead of an other. It is because my multitask isn't good enough.
Yeah pressing A for marines is comfortable, but it won't make you win against a player who is used to crush you.
Hotkey binding is only positive : it will bring more new players. BW veterans won't change their hotkeys.
well, we all learn and fail in different ways. like i said i have been playing for a long ass time and i still can't hit 'o' 99 out of 100 times in a live game. for me, it would be a huge benefit to get free overlords. what's your opinion on blizzard not letting people change the F keys/ctrl keys then??
On May 30 2017 20:02 Endymion wrote: well, we all learn and fail in different ways. like i said i have been playing for a long ass time and i still can't hit 'o' 99 out of 100 times in a live game. for me, it would be a huge benefit to get free overlords
Then hotkeys binding should be a good feature for you, Isn't it ? There are key binding for most of the competitive games. Quake III, Counter Strike, Fighting games... even War III. Shortkeys aren't supposed to be a handicap, they're supposed to help you to do an action faster than doing it with your mouse.
On May 30 2017 20:02 Endymion wrote: What's your opinion on blizzard not letting people change the F keys/ctrl keys then??
Well, personally, since I won't change my key bindings , I don't really care. But in principle, yes, they should allow people to modify those too. But with the exception of the cameras, those shortkeys are universal for every RTS game, in every language. I'm pretty sure no one would change those ones.
On May 30 2017 17:44 lestye wrote: Ultimately, I think even if you believe that this might affect gameplay, it's a reasonable concession to make for the health of the game's population. I don't think it's worth denouncing it. I certainly won't, and probably wouldn't unless an important from the scene says its legitimately detrimental.
it's fine if you think differently and don't care about hotkeys, but it's incredibly unhealthy if only "important people from the scene" can have an actual impact on the game given how many "important people from the scene" are on blizzard's payroll in one form or another (who are incentived by the game making as much money as possible, not by the game being as good as possible)
They're also competitors that would have the most to lose as they would allegedly be the ones put at a loss with these changes. I think that's far more reasonable than armchair tacticians who don't really have a stake in the scene and are just be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.
Blizz would undoubtedly and irreversibly change the game play of Brood War altogether if they let us change hotkeys. I don't remember Bisu bitching about having to hit "P" for probe when he smashed other pros in the past, and I doubt that Flash would openly state that he double clicked "O" on his siege tanks and it cost him a game, because they both understand the nature of the beast they are taking head on.
It's part of the game...People just want things to be easy and instantaneous.
On May 31 2017 02:12 Th1rdEye wrote: I agree with your standpoint on the subject.
Blizz would undoubtedly and irreversibly change the game play of Brood War altogether if they let us change hotkeys. I don't remember Bisu bitching about having to hit "P" for probe when he smashed other pros in the past, and I doubt that Flash would openly state that he double clicked "O" on his siege tanks and it cost him a game, because they both understand the nature of the beast they are taking head on.
It's part of the game...People just want things to be easy and instantaneous.
Lmfao that's so stupid ^^
Then why are you using hotkeys ? You arent a true gosu then... True gosu dont want things to be easy and instantaneous... So they use mouse only man..
Do you use mouse only ? So you're no gosu sorry.
........ Like for real ? Is this your argument ? "Players that want rebindable hotkeys are lazy arrivists people that want to be as good as me in 2 min even Tho they arent able to press m or o correctly..."
I understand some of the anti rebindable when they Say that balance should be monitored (winrates at least) after they patch it definitively so that we are sure it wont give any unfair advantage to one RACE. But given unfair advantage to a player ? Thats laughable.
I don't understand how this thing got so complicated.
So let me break it down for all the dummies in the world (I'm sure a warn or ban is incoming but enough is enough already):
1. Endy (the guy who wrote this article) is 100% correct and spot-on. Though it is a VERY minor blip or inconsistency, it's been these same VERY minor blips that have been an integral part of this game. For the first 30 seconds of any game I can keep up macro with Flash; easy. After that, though? Not so much. That is because these small nuances and mistakes grow exponentially throughout the course of the game. Adding in all the other components, snowballs into something NOT so minor. This is basically what Endy is saying (correct me if I'm wrong). These small inconsistincies and quirks about BW are EXACTLY what make it the best game ever; period. And YES they do matter....EVERYTHING in BW matters. Just some things matter more than others. So Endy is 100% correct in saying that this will impact the game. Maybe it won't show up in the stats but, as anyone who watches sports knows, some of the better players don't do well on the statsheet but do many small "intangible" things well enough to help their team. This is kind of one of those things. If you disagree then there's 2 logical explanations: you either don't play this game much to know this or you're just a complete imbecile.
2. Idv....you are a super dumbass. I don't think anything else needs to be said other than you might possibly have a negative IQ. Furthermore, who are you to call anyone out about their "apm" or "skill"? I am pretty sure you are garbage. No one who is good would of said what you said; bottom line. Please go back to SC2.
3. They touched the graphics (great!), even though it's still choppy on BNet right now. For the most part, they didn't touch the gameplay, which is amazing. But rebinding hotkeys is a bad move. People used to complain about BW being hard, so they made SC2...which is basically BW remastered, as an expansion pack (meaning different but comparable units and names for them), and with a built-in Hack. That's right. You can automine, autogather, autosend workers to mine, you see the fog of war of the map so easily that you don't end up wasting time or energy to focus on why your probe is stuck in the top corner of your base (which would impact a normal BW player....but not anymore!). You can select many units and do many things automatically. This keybinding is the FIRST step in that direction....but obviously SC2 is garbage (if u think otherwise then ur probably an idiot, too) and these are just some of the reasons why it has failed.
Bottom line- BW is THE best game ever and THE most balanced game ever, as is. I dare anyone to prove me wrong. But alas, as much as I absolutely LOVE this game, I hate a lot of the ppl on here. In this case Endy made a GREAT point and guess what? HE'S FUCKIN RIGHT! But people are jumping on him like "oh it won't affect anything". I bet those people are the same ones who lied to themselves about using maphacks isn't the reason why they started winning more...yea keep tellin yourself that...idiots.
This game is PERFECT even though it's not. It's imperfectly perfect. Stop fuckin around with it just so 10 year olds will want to play it. If they can't even take the time to learn what fuckin key to press then they shouldn't be playing at all. On a side note, I remember either Warcraft or Diablo or one of those failure games had "A W E D S" or some combination of those keys as the ARROWS. The fuckin arrows can you imagine? How dumb to move using keys like that. But, I didn't agree that they should rebind. I just agreed the game was made poorly and didn't play it anymore....instead I went back to the only real game out there, Brood War.
So fuck you for trying to fuck up the game I love simply because you are either dumb as rocks, or lazy, or used to failure games like SC2, or you plain suck (or even worse, you might actually be really good and just a whiner and a crybaby, which is happening a lot on here recently). You are probably one of those people who thinks Scan shouldn't be allowed to play because he's too good.
If ANY of what I've said above applies to you or has offended you....then GREAT! That means I WAS talking to/about you. And if so, you should proceed to either stop playing this game or go play in traffic or simply shut the fuck up and stop being a whiny lil pussy bitch.
If the meta changes because of hotkeys, that's OK. If it doesn't, that's OK too. Players will adapt either way.
If the Korean tournaments ban custom hotkeys that's fine. If not, that's fine too. However I do think that tournaments will likely allow custom hotkeys purely on the basis that it doesn't make much sense to have different hotkey setups for home/ladder play vs. tournament play.
Also, will I think anything less of players that use custom hotkeys vs. ones that do not? No I will not. I'm grateful that both Brood War has made a comeback and that Remastered is actually happening and I have faith in Blizzard's Classic team to do the right thing in the long run.
In the end, whatever happens, happens. I'll continue watch and play Brood War for many more years to come.
On May 30 2017 17:44 lestye wrote: Ultimately, I think even if you believe that this might affect gameplay, it's a reasonable concession to make for the health of the game's population. I don't think it's worth denouncing it. I certainly won't, and probably wouldn't unless an important from the scene says its legitimately detrimental.
it's fine if you think differently and don't care about hotkeys, but it's incredibly unhealthy if only "important people from the scene" can have an actual impact on the game given how many "important people from the scene" are on blizzard's payroll in one form or another (who are incentived by the game making as much money as possible, not by the game being as good as possible)
They're also competitors that would have the most to lose as they would allegedly be the ones put at a loss with these changes. I think that's far more reasonable than armchair tacticians who don't really have a stake in the scene and are just be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.
i mean i'm not going to quote my rank at you or be like "i've beat so and so and i practice with so and so" because it should be irrelevant to reinforcing the logic that i have stated in the op. i'm just glad that my playing since release, which i stated in the op, doesn't mean that i have an "active stake in the scene." in fact, even if you want to look at it like that, i'm sure you could look at the opportunity cost of a lot of foreigners/amateurs (as well as pros like jd/bisu/flash/savior/july alike) and each player would have lost a lot more in a fiscal sense from just putting time into the game than their actual winnings. so yeah, measuring a player's "stake" in the state of the game by how much money they make off of it is pretty insulting... edit~ you didn't expressly mention money, but that's how most figureheads are measured (thinking of people like day9/tasteless/artosis's successes). there are other foreigner figureheads like scan or... maybe some of the casters? that don't make money, but the point still stands
in fact, i expressly don't play on iccup or with many foreigners because i vastly prefer the korean attitude when it comes to the scene and the game itself. Additionally, i obviously don't play the tournies that you watch. i just play games with clans etc. i'm not saying to this to say "heh i'm so much better than you," i'm saying this because there are large scenes that don't directly include mainstream foreigners and KESPA level foreigner-facing tournies, so only listening to figureheads of your specific community is pretty hurtful. i'm not even suggesting that a d- player doesn't have a voice, but they need to explain and vet their logic instead of (traditionally) bitching about balance and "archaic mechanics," while pretending to care about the longevity of the scene that they just entered.
It's interesting. So much of my enjoyment of StarCraft in the early years was becoming masterful at the UI. A part of SC that was so magnificent was this invisible comeback mechanic, where if you get a little behind and you've got the right personality, you can play harder to compensate. When you're ahead, you play a little more relaxed. If you can win while playing relaxed, you know you're way ahead of the other player's skill and understanding. If you can steal a win by playing really hard against someone who knows they're a little better, there's a real feeling of excitement that you stole a game not even through 4pool, but just through your opponent's arrogance. You know you're not better than them, but that doesn't take away the sweetness of victory. And when you're playing against someone you know is even skill, and you're both pouring yourselves into the game, the clash is so incredible, you feel like you're all over the game.
But there's lots of little tricks experienced players know that you can play SC for years and never realise. Shift click, turning off mouse acceleration (which basically makes your arms hurt like hell at even 60-80 apm), hold lurkers, burrow lurks by putting them at the beginning of control groups, position your buildings in really easy ways to macro, use location keys to rerally buildings, click 'unload' on the dropship to make it unload while moving, patrol or hold position works by selecting them with another unit, shift click through nydus, shift click from liftoff building, clone by shift clicking wireframes, add units to a group with shift, use patrol to execute a slightly different kind of attack, ctrl click to select units... I can name a hundred more, and none of them are particularly obvious or discoverable until you watch someone else do them or you read about them in a guide. Like I think I'm one of the few people who used shift attack click for microing units perfectly, something I picked up from tsunami's ancient guide.
If you don't know all that stuff, your arms just hurt when you play. And that's okay when you're playing other 40apm people, but it makes 200apm seem totally mysterious and superhuman, when a lot of it is just missing information. Imagine mac users who can't easily disable mouse acceleration not knowing every window's user has it off and has to move their arm way less. It's bonkers. That's why SC became this kind of subculture of gamers, anyone who stuck with it just kept learning little trick after little trick, until we can't even remember what it was like not to know them. And then we have the nerve to make the first thing we tell any new player 'you can stack muta if you group them with an overlord or other far away unit' like there aren't 50 much more important things to know just to execute a build without your arms hurting.
So it's like... I liked learning all these tricks, but I'm not really against doing a couple of things that induce less incidents of carpal tunnel syndrome that are more obvious to new players. Letting you change the hotkeys is one of those things. Also I'm tired of hitting n when I mean to hit m to build marines ;o Then again, it's an old game, and I'm kinda also really happy to just preserve it exactly, instead of suddenly making game-play changes 10 years later. I can't decide I doubt it would ruin StarCraft, but I also want to win games against players who hit i instead of o to seige their tanks lol.
On May 31 2017 11:43 Chris_Havoc wrote: I'll keep my opinion simple.
If the meta changes because of hotkeys, that's OK. If it doesn't, that's OK too. Players will adapt either way.
If the Korean tournaments ban custom hotkeys that's fine. If not, that's fine too. However I do think that tournaments will likely allow custom hotkeys purely on the basis that it doesn't make much sense to have different hotkey setups for home/ladder play vs. tournament play.
Also, will I think anything less of players that use custom hotkeys vs. ones that do not? No I will not. I'm grateful that both Brood War has made a comeback and that Remastered is actually happening and I have faith in Blizzard's Classic team to do the right thing in the long run.
In the end, whatever happens, happens. I'll continue watch and play Brood War for many more years to come.
This is exactly what I think.
The remaster has a lot of changes in place: visual, hotkey rebind and a wider fov
Everything is available for everyone.
If it destroy the dedicated balance of bw then so be it. Game will adapt, it's not like the game is set in stone with the current meta.
On May 31 2017 02:12 Th1rdEye wrote: I agree with your standpoint on the subject.
Blizz would undoubtedly and irreversibly change the game play of Brood War altogether if they let us change hotkeys. I don't remember Bisu bitching about having to hit "P" for probe when he smashed other pros in the past, and I doubt that Flash would openly state that he double clicked "O" on his siege tanks and it cost him a game, because they both understand the nature of the beast they are taking head on.
It's part of the game...People just want things to be easy and instantaneous.
Lmfao that's so stupid ^^
Then why are you using hotkeys ? You arent a true gosu then... True gosu dont want things to be easy and instantaneous... So they use mouse only man..
Do you use mouse only ? So you're no gosu sorry.
........ Like for real ? Is this your argument ? "Players that want rebindable hotkeys are lazy arrivists people that want to be as good as me in 2 min even Tho they arent able to press m or o correctly..."
I understand some of the anti rebindable when they Say that balance should be monitored (winrates at least) after they patch it definitively so that we are sure it wont give any unfair advantage to one RACE. But given unfair advantage to a player ? Thats laughable.
your strawman of the post is so egregious, idk how you were banned for that comment.
I merely stated that what he said was kinda stupid, and it is : stating that all the people who are not against remastered hotkeys “just want things to be easy and instantaneous”…
Then I just extended his argument, saying that basically using hotkeys in the first place (aka “shortcuts” : it means what it means…) instead of pure mouse clicking was already “want[ing] things to be easy and instantaneous”. So that even he falls into the category he just claims to be bad for the game. The comparison and extensive use of the word “gosu” was a mere tentative to sound like an old schooler puritain for the laugh (it has miserably failed apparently).
You could oppose me the argument that “the game was designed this way in the first place so it should stay how it is”, but that argument is fallacious. The game was definitively designed this way (even tho that is debatable since all version have different hotkeys setups depending of the language you use…). BUT the game designers in NO WAY foresaw what would become of their game (aka greatest and hardest to master esport game ever made). So saying that changing that will even change the essence and core of the game…
A majority of the people against the remastered hotkeys are against because they believe it could impact the balance of the game (in terms of MU) : that, I respect. That’s what I stated at the end of the post : MU should not be impacted by those changes. If they are, I think it MUST be removed. I happen to think it will not be. BW is mechanically so hard that putting marines production on A instead of M won’t turn a good player into a bad one and vice versa.
But what seems to be a small part of the against are against because they think newbie and newcomers that want a little flexibility on the hotkeys should NOT be allowed to play, because changing hotkeys allocation will strip them of their skill. If you seriously believe that player A wins 100% of his games against player B now, and by allowing player B to change hotkeys it will turn the tide so that player B now wins 100% of his games against player A, then… It is laughable.
Yeah, don't do that. You can morph any position in the world to the extreme and it will be a bad position, and it will not be the original position. "I think commerce is good and makes the world better" "So you like the slave trade?"
I get that you're reacting to the ungentle "people just want things easy." But the spirit of that is not that we shouldn't have any conveniences, it's that a part of what makes BW special is its precise balance of mechanical difficulty, and upsetting that balance (saying nothing of race statistics) makes BW into a different game. Not even pros can do everything perfect, but even new players can move their whole army across the map.
You also can't make up arguments for other people and then bat them down, like you're doing with "that's the way the game was designed." I think most BW fans accept the game as a massive fluke. And by that token, a lot of long time players who appreciate that idea don't particularly think messing with it is going to be a good thing. Better to accidentally have something perfect than to design something and be thwarted. Screwing up the design now could mess up BW's rise back into popular culture, so most BW fans, even if they aren't sure a change would be bad, take a conservative perspective because it ain't really broke as is We also know as players that actually, having tricky keystrokes to hit can make the game intense and interesting, and require heightened concentration, which we derive pleasure from when we succeed. So for a some things, we end up feeling modern quality of life technologies actually reduce that aspect of our enjoyment.
That last paragraph is basically reiterating what the OP said, and it's how I feel. I can't actually speak for Th1rdEye, but I can speak kind of generally about the experience of people who played the heck out of BW. Very few BW players really lamented the hotkeys, and those that did just changed them behind the scenes and played casually, which didn't really upset many people either. Making it the standard though, that's controversial for a good reason. Some people really don't care about being able to miss 'o' in a battle, other people think it's an integral part of the BW experience. My personal ambivalence about it is that I care about the health of professional players, and I think it might be worth sacrificing this part of the game that I genuinely like if it means less injuries among players I like. But I also don't know if that's more the mouse hand or something else, or if changing hotkeys would really even do much.
On May 29 2017 01:47 404AlphaSquad wrote: Players have won sc2 tournaments with BW hotkeys. Hotkeys dont change balance. period.
jaedong could also probably go 50-0 against iccup d players without a monitor, does that mean having a monitor doesn't influence balance?
Right, you lost all your rights to be taken seriously with this comment for me ^^. Its a stupid comment that makes no fucking sense. What are you trying to achieve with it or do you want to look like a moron on purpose? Comparing sc2 tournament wins to "playing against d players" makes you look like an arrogant ass. What is that supposed to achieve? Like I would change my mind and go: " Oh well yes, playing with custom hotkeys is as devastating for my enemy as if he would have no monitor at all."
I am w8ing for all of these teamliquid/reddit elitists who are fighting so vehemently to keep something this insignificant out of the game to go full pro and beat jeadong and flash when the remastered with custom hotkeys comes out. The "undeniable advantage" that's supposed to be this groundbreaking like playing against someone without a monitor should make it easy for you.
See you in the next ASL finals in Korea endymion!
On June 01 2017 20:52 SkrollK wrote: But what seems to be a small part of the against are against because they think newbie and newcomers that want a little flexibility on the hotkeys should NOT be allowed to play, because changing hotkeys allocation will strip them of their skill.
I think this is what the discussion boils down to. Noone actually believes it will happen, but a minority of the BW community does not want to be newcomer friendly and want them to learn the "hard" way like they did. So they use "skill" as a vicious argument to justify outdated design and keep newbies away. If newcomers dont want to put up with this bullshit, they are "softies", "lazy" and "casual shits" and elitists have yet another reason to feed their superiority complex over any other game/player out there.
EDIT: Btw like in your op, it is not MBS/automine/unlimited select that made SC2 the "inferior" game to BW. I don't understand why this OP even got featured, when it is all just slander and a rant without any evidence to back any statement up, especially something that is this subjective. Calling custom hotkeys the heart of BW is also fucking stupid.
On May 29 2017 01:47 404AlphaSquad wrote: Players have won sc2 tournaments with BW hotkeys. Hotkeys dont change balance. period.
jaedong could also probably go 50-0 against iccup d players without a monitor, does that mean having a monitor doesn't influence balance?
Right, you lost all your rights to be taken seriously with this comment for me ^^. Its a stupid comment that makes no fucking sense. What are you trying to achieve with it or do you want to look like a moron on purpose? Comparing sc2 tournament wins to "playing against d players" makes you look like an arrogant ass. What is that supposed to achieve? Like I would change my mind and go: " Oh well yes, playing with custom hotkeys is as devastating for my enemy as if he would have no monitor at all."
I am w8ing for all of these teamliquid/reddit elitists who are fighting so vehemently to keep something this insignificant out of the game to go full pro and beat jeadong and flash when the remastered with custom hotkeys comes out. The "undeniable advantage" that's supposed to be this groundbreaking like playing against someone without a monitor should make it easy for you.
On June 01 2017 20:52 SkrollK wrote: But what seems to be a small part of the against are against because they think newbie and newcomers that want a little flexibility on the hotkeys should NOT be allowed to play, because changing hotkeys allocation will strip them of their skill.
I think this is what the discussion boils down to. Noone actually believes it will happen, but a minority of the BW community does not want to be newcomer friendly and want them to learn the "hard" way like they did. So they use "skill" as a vicious argument to justify outdated design and keep newbies away. If newcomers dont want to put up with this bullshit, they are "softies", "lazy" and "casual shits" and elitists have yet another reason to feed their superiority complex over any other game/player out there.
EDIT: Btw like in your op, it is not MBS/automine/unlimited select that made SC2 the "inferior" game to BW. I don't understand why this OP even got featured, when it is all just slander and a rant without any evidence to back any statement up, especially something that is this subjective. Calling custom hotkeys the heart of BW is also fucking stupid.
Ehm, he lays out premises and then goes on to derive conclusions from them. It's a logical argument. It sounds like you just don't agree with his initial premises.
I am w8ing for all of these teamliquid/reddit elitists who are fighting so vehemently to keep something this insignificant out of the game to go full pro and beat jeadong and flash when the remastered with custom hotkeys comes out. The "undeniable advantage" that's supposed to be this groundbreaking like playing against someone without a monitor should make it easy for you.
See you in the next ASL finals in Korea endymion!
This is a ridiculously egregious straw-man. Absolutely nobody in this thread is asserting they will beat Flash or Jaedong with custom hotkeys allowed. and you know it.
Btw like in your op, it is not MBS/automine/unlimited select that made SC2 the "inferior" game to BW.
It is not the only reason, but it is certainly a significant component of why SC2 wasn't as enjoyable to play or watch, especially for people who appreciated the emphasis BW players on the "TS" part of RTS.
I am w8ing for all of these teamliquid/reddit elitists who are fighting so vehemently to keep something this insignificant out of the game to go full pro and beat jeadong and flash when the remastered with custom hotkeys comes out. The "undeniable advantage" that's supposed to be this groundbreaking like playing against someone without a monitor should make it easy for you.
See you in the next ASL finals in Korea endymion!
This is a ridiculously egregious straw-man. Absolutely nobody in this thread is asserting they will beat Flash or Jaedong with custom hotkeys allowed. and you know it.
Ofc it is ridiculous. It is equally ridiculous to suggest that customisable hotkeys affect balance as bad as playing against somebody without a monitor.
Btw like in your op, it is not MBS/automine/unlimited select that made SC2 the "inferior" game to BW.
It is not the only reason, but it is certainly a significant component of why SC2 wasn't as enjoyable to play or watch, especially for people who appreciated the emphasis BW players on the "TS" part of RTS.
This is entirely subjective. I refuse to just settle with the mindset that sc2 was just bound to fail because it didn't blindly copy BW. A successful RTS doesn't hinge on having no MBS/automine/unlimited select and no customisable hotkeys. There are other ways to build a great RTS, even though (nobody in this forum wants to believe/hear this ) some people in this forum dont want to believe/hear this, because they are just satisfied to call anything different from BW as "inferior" to feed their superiority complex.
It was clear from the get go (2007) that sc2 was gonna have these things and that it would focus on other aspects (sped up game-play etc.), which would make it by definition a different game from BW. This did not make it a failure before its release, and everyone who played BW should have known that the game would be vastly different and would require a different skillset.
Now there are a lot of (subjective) reasons of why sc2 is actually not good in terms of design such as the economy system, pathing problems and lacking unit interactions. With each of these categories you could write an essay on why sc2 isn't satisfying to play.
I would argue that it does make sense to believe that making hotkeys customizable is a step away from a core value of BW mechanics. At lower levels it would probably not make any significant difference with regards to racial balance, but what I think most people are arguing about is the top tier levels of play.
Now we know how far mechanically progamers can go when it comes to multitasking,apm,etc. Now think of an analogy of BW being a musical score, where players have to hit the keys at the right times, so by letting people customize their own keys, that changes the musical score to what they are playing and could therefore play a much easier song to master than a much more complex due to the finger distance of the keys. I think that's what people that are against customizing hotkeys are getting at. When you are a progamer who is moving 350-400+ apm with fingers tapping their keyboards fast and furiously, you think that letting them compose their own key notes is not going to make a difference? I think it will. Progamers even look like they are playing the piano with their keyboard.
If in BW we could select unlimited amount of units, which race do you think that will benefit the most? Obviously Zerg, then terran, and then Protoss. There isn't a progamer that fully maximizes a zerg army bc of limited hotkeys and the physical limitations of that, so it isn't much of a leap to compare and say to redefine the physical limitations of even shorter distances between keys or positions even if it improves a split second faster for certain actions, could definitely influence the balance.
Also I can point out logically how redefining the hotkeys will affect balance, based on your own preferences. Here's a dialogue.
Why do you guys want to redefine the hotkeys to w/e custom you want? -Your Answer: To make it easier on myself.
If it is easier to redefine the hotkeys does that not imply that it makes your tasks much easier and therefore affect balance? (Premise being apm affects balance) And if you are saying you want customizable hotkeys just because you are used to another hotkey, than you can just learn the proper hotkeys, saying you are used to one hotkey isn't a good argument anyways when it could potentially harm the balance of the game. The risk is not worth the reward in this scenario, risk being the balance, and the reward being your convenience of learning the game which isn't so hard to learn the old hotkeys.
-Your answer: Well everyone else can do it, so it's balanced!
Well just because all races can have unlimited unit selection doesn't mean each race benefits equally from that same standpoint, therefore redefining hotkeys for everyone to customize doesn't necessarily benefit all races equally, because some are meant to be more mechanically taxing otherwise that race would be more OP.
If blizzard wants to keep the spirit of keeping BW core values the same, they should not hamper with the hotkeys, because like my argument above I believe it can make an impact. Hotkeys I believe isn't such a big deal for new gamers but the reverse wouldn't be true. New gamers to BW can just learn, but to sacrifice possibly the balance of the game just to appease the new gamers is greedy of blizzard and short sighted imo. When you first learned of BW, I don't think anyone complained about any hotkeys, they just accepted the hotkeys and learned.
I agree with the notion that balance in BW was a great fluke so the hotkeys in question shouldn't necessarily be considered the most optimal for balance. I can accept this as a valid argument, because I too believe this game isn't necessarily the most balanced it could be, it is merely the closest racial balance we accept, so if you can come up with a theory that makes a certain new hotkeys that everyone must follow to balance the races even further than before than I'm open for that, but for now, let's not fix what isn't broken, it is nearly perfect in balance, so unless you have something better in mind and can prove it, let's keep it the way it is.
For those arguing that rehotkeys in SC2 didn't make a difference, I think it's a bad comparison to talk about SC2 rehotkeys with broodwar because sc2 is much less mechanically demanding with the MBS,etc.
Unless Blizzard gets a lot of heat for making hotkeys customizable, I believe we are going to get this change whether we like it or not because the majority of fans aren't complaining enough. So if it comes to pass, I predict Protoss will fall off the map slightly more than they are now. Protoss are the least mechanically inclined race, they are the race that is less apm spam with keyboards and more of precision spells like storm, stasis, positioning,etc. For this reason I believe Protoss will be more of a disadvantage because their skill ceiling is slightly lower.
You can even observe this in all the match ups. PvT is pretty even because both races have to have good positioning, and can't just mechanically spam their keyboard and win like zerg does. Now when it's ZvT, the roles are reversed and Terran is the one that can just mechanically spam and Zerg has to be more precise with their swarm, plague positioning, flanks,etc. ZvP you see protoss struggling because Zerg if they increase their apm ceiling a bit more, they can control more units a little better, they can overwhelm protoss, because protoss all they have is a big ball of units that can't really have much more return of investment of their apm time focused on their army vs a zerg army. You see zealots dying to lings more effectively, lings can be microed so much more than a zealot can ever hope to be microed. A ling's speed just increases their potential ceiling against zealots, bc of ling dps and microing away dmged lings with a fresh one in early game, and when it comes down to numbers, zealots have less in numbers so there is much less to micro and take adv of. In late game yes, lings become a pool of blood against zealot archon ht/reaver army. But I'd argue that is just inefficiency with the Zerg player, if they were microing their units to their max potential and tested their physical constraints/limits of how many zerg units they could control at a time, even if slightly to improve their speed and accuracy and flanking, or spreading out to dodge storms or splash dmg, zerg has more room to grow in a skill ceiling vs whereas protoss doesn't have that same opportunity of growth, all they can do is try to predict and position their units well.
Think of this way as well, if you see a zerg player succumbing to zealot pressure that kills drones when lings were there to defend, do you think that progamer thought "wow that protoss player just outplayed me and I literally couldn't do anything!" OR do you think he's saying to himself "WHY didn't I MICRO my LINGS and DRONES BETTER?" He instinctively knows that zerg has room to micro and deal with zealots unless he got caught by surprise by a strategy he didn't expect which shame on him he should have all the scouting he could want early game with ol, lings, and then later scourge,etc.
How does protoss lose almost every PvZ? They didn't position zealots to block ramp/choke point,etc. They didn't predict zerg's movements or strategy/drop or defend bases fast enough against cracklings. That's why again Protoss has to predict, anticipate, and position well, while zerg has the initiative almost all the time if the zerg isn't passive.
on the contrary to a lot of people here, i think the current keybinds are actually too easy to reach. it would be interesting if each hotkey is replaced with a street fighter style button combo, where the higher tier units require longer and/or more precise sequences of key presses. imo it could potentially make high level korean play even more impressive to watch.
I would argue that it does make sense to believe that making hotkeys customizable is a step away from a core value of BW mechanics. At lower levels it would probably not make any significant difference with regards to racial balance, but what I think most people are arguing about is the top tier levels of play.
Now we know how far mechanically progamers can go when it comes to multitasking,apm,etc. Now think of an analogy of BW being a musical score, where players have to hit the keys at the right times, so by letting people customize their own keys, that changes the musical score to what they are playing and could therefore play a much easier song to master than a much more complex due to the finger distance of the keys. I think that's what people that are against customizing hotkeys are getting at. When you are a progamer who is moving 350-400+ apm with fingers tapping their keyboards fast and furiously, you think that letting them compose their own key notes is not going to make a difference? I think it will. Progamers even look like they are playing the piano with their keyboard.
If in BW we could select unlimited amount of units, which race do you think that will benefit the most? Obviously Zerg, then terran, and then Protoss. There isn't a progamer that fully maximizes a zerg army bc of limited hotkeys and the physical limitations of that, so it isn't much of a leap to compare and say to redefine the physical limitations of even shorter distances between keys or positions even if it improves a split second faster for certain actions, could definitely influence the balance.
Also I can point out logically how redefining the hotkeys will affect balance, based on your own preferences. Here's a dialogue.
Why do you guys want to redefine the hotkeys to w/e custom you want? -Your Answer: To make it easier on myself.
If it is easier to redefine the hotkeys does that not imply that it makes your tasks much easier and therefore affect balance? (Premise being apm affects balance) And if you are saying you want customizable hotkeys just because you are used to another hotkey, than you can just learn the proper hotkeys, saying you are used to one hotkey isn't a good argument anyways when it could potentially harm the balance of the game. The risk is not worth the reward in this scenario, risk being the balance, and the reward being your convenience of learning the game which isn't so hard to learn the old hotkeys.
-Your answer: Well everyone else can do it, so it's balanced!
Well just because all races can have unlimited unit selection doesn't mean each race benefits equally from that same standpoint, therefore redefining hotkeys for everyone to customize doesn't necessarily benefit all races equally, because some are meant to be more mechanically taxing otherwise that race would be more OP.
If blizzard wants to keep the spirit of keeping BW core values the same, they should not hamper with the hotkeys, because like my argument above I believe it can make an impact. Hotkeys I believe isn't such a big deal for new gamers but the reverse wouldn't be true. New gamers to BW can just learn, but to sacrifice possibly the balance of the game just to appease the new gamers is greedy of blizzard and short sighted imo. When you first learned of BW, I don't think anyone complained about any hotkeys, they just accepted the hotkeys and learned.
I agree with the notion that balance in BW was a great fluke so the hotkeys in question shouldn't necessarily be considered the most optimal for balance. I can accept this as a valid argument, because I too believe this game isn't necessarily the most balanced it could be, it is merely the closest racial balance we accept, so if you can come up with a theory that makes a certain new hotkeys that everyone must follow to balance the races even further than before than I'm open for that, but for now, let's not fix what isn't broken, it is nearly perfect in balance, so unless you have something better in mind and can prove it, let's keep it the way it is.
For those arguing that rehotkeys in SC2 didn't make a difference, I think it's a bad comparison to talk about SC2 rehotkeys with broodwar because sc2 is much less mechanically demanding with the MBS,etc.
Unless Blizzard gets a lot of heat for making hotkeys customizable, I believe we are going to get this change whether we like it or not because the majority of fans aren't complaining enough. So if it comes to pass, I predict Protoss will fall off the map slightly more than they are now. Protoss are the least mechanically inclined race, they are the race that is less apm spam with keyboards and more of precision spells like storm, stasis, positioning,etc. For this reason I believe Protoss will be more of a disadvantage because their skill ceiling is slightly lower.
You can even observe this in all the match ups. PvT is pretty even because both races have to have good positioning, and can't just mechanically spam their keyboard and win like zerg does. Now when it's ZvT, the roles are reversed and Terran is the one that can just mechanically spam and Zerg has to be more precise with their swarm, plague positioning, flanks,etc. ZvP you see protoss struggling because Zerg if they increase their apm ceiling a bit more, they can control more units a little better, they can overwhelm protoss, because protoss all they have is a big ball of units that can't really have much more return of investment of their apm time focused on their army vs a zerg army. You see zealots dying to lings more effectively, lings can be microed so much more than a zealot can ever hope to be microed. A ling's speed just increases their potential ceiling against zealots, bc of ling dps and microing away dmged lings with a fresh one in early game, and when it comes down to numbers, zealots have less in numbers so there is much less to micro and take adv of. In late game yes, lings become a pool of blood against zealot archon ht/reaver army. But I'd argue that is just inefficiency with the Zerg player, if they were microing their units to their max potential and tested their physical constraints/limits of how many zerg units they could control at a time, even if slightly to improve their speed and accuracy and flanking, or spreading out to dodge storms or splash dmg, zerg has more room to grow in a skill ceiling vs whereas protoss doesn't have that same opportunity of growth, all they can do is try to predict and position their units well.
Think of this way as well, if you see a zerg player succumbing to zealot pressure that kills drones when lings were there to defend, do you think that progamer thought "wow that protoss player just outplayed me and I literally couldn't do anything!" OR do you think he's saying to himself "WHY didn't I MICRO my LINGS and DRONES BETTER?" He instinctively knows that zerg has room to micro and deal with zealots unless he got caught by surprise by a strategy he didn't expect which shame on him he should have all the scouting he could want early game with ol, lings, and then later scourge,etc.
How does protoss lose almost every PvZ? They didn't position zealots to block ramp/choke point,etc. They didn't predict zerg's movements or strategy/drop or defend bases fast enough against cracklings. That's why again Protoss has to predict, anticipate, and position well, while zerg has the initiative almost all the time if the zerg isn't passive.
Making an argument against customisable hotkeys because you are worried about the balance of the game by the top 1% of players is at least understandable/relateable and a discussion that is warranted. + Show Spoiler +
However let me point out the following: -thus far, no conclusive evidence and thus no reason to believe that hotkeys will indeed affect balance. -no actual unit interaction will change in the game, making by theory the game not any different as it was before. -balance in BW is far from perfect anyways and balancing is mostly done through maps -so even if we go from the standpoint that it will have a very tiny effect on balance on the top 1% of the players (which I don't believe), it might not necessarily be bad. -the patch that made it possible to right click rally points, also did not make the game worse.
Now I don't really want to actually discuss the possible impact of hotkeys on balance, because I don't think anyone on this forum is really on that level to fully grasp how much of an impact hotkeys have on this level anyways. However this is not the point of the OP and not what I am arguing against. The point the OP is trying to make is that the implementation of custom hotkeys is
removing an aspect of skill, differentiation between players, and strategy from the game.
and that BW hotkeys are the
heart of the game
(even though every region has its own set of hotkeys) And among the many poor arguments he provides to keep this archaic system is "Well I had to learn it, so new players should as well!", which is just an attitude I cant get behind. It is unnecessarily vicious to new players without reason other than "separating the wheat from the chaff" and to maintain the feeling of superiority towards players not willing put up with this bullshit.
This sentence pretty much sums his rant up:
On May 28 2017 20:47 Endymion wrote: I'm more worried about getting mad about losing and having an easy out saying "oh she just changed her hotkeys, if this was 1.16.1 i would have owned her" which is really not in the spirit of broodwar at all..
Making an argument against customisable hotkeys because you are worried about the balance of the game by the top 1% of players is at least understandable/relateable and a discussion that is warranted. + Show Spoiler +
However let me point out the following: -thus far, no conclusive evidence and thus no reason to believe that hotkeys will indeed affect balance. -no actual unit interaction will change in the game, making by theory the game not any different as it was before. -balance in BW is far from perfect anyways and balancing is mostly done through maps -so even if we go from the standpoint that it will have a very tiny effect on balance on the top 1% of the players (which I don't believe), it might not necessarily be bad. -the patch that made it possible to right click rally points, also did not make the game worse.
Now I don't really want to actually discuss the possible impact of hotkeys on balance, because I don't think anyone on this forum is really on that level to fully grasp how much of an impact hotkeys have on this level anyways. However this is not the point of the OP and not what I am arguing against. The point the OP is trying to make is that the implementation of custom hotkeys is
removing an aspect of skill, differentiation between players, and strategy from the game.
and that BW hotkeys are the
heart of the game
(even though every region has its own set of hotkeys) And among the many poor arguments he provides to keep this archaic system is "Well I had to learn it, so new players should as well!", which is just an attitude I cant get behind. It is unnecessarily vicious to new players without reason other than "separating the wheat from the chaff" and to maintain the feeling of superiority towards players not willing put up with this bullshit.
This sentence pretty much sums his rant up:
On May 28 2017 20:47 Endymion wrote: I'm more worried about getting mad about losing and having an easy out saying "oh she just changed her hotkeys, if this was 1.16.1 i would have owned her" which is really not in the spirit of broodwar at all..
[/QUOTE]
Of course there isn't sufficient evidence to say with 100% certainty that customizable hotkeys will affect racial balance, I was careful in stating that it COULD affect balance, not a definite. I've already took that into account, but I don't think it's correct to say it won't affect unit interaction. I'm assuming we're talking about all hotkeys like spells into account. So if that is accounted as part of the customization, then yes it can affect unit interaction.
I think the argument saying that it removes an aspect of skill for being able to customize is a legitimate. Because if you can't hold everyone to the same standards of the keys they play, there could definitely be slight differences in how they came about in the game. I'm sure you heard about the butterfly effect. Something seemingly so insignificant could change the path of the future or in this case the game scenario. Let's say a player mistyped a hotkey, that led to not creating a certain unit, that could've killed an extra 2 units or changed the tide of an important battle, which made them lose focus on another aspect of the game, and then snowballed into another situation and so on and so on. In the case of a progamer, maybe he wouldn't normally mistype a hotkey, but maybe it took him 0.1 seconds longer to hit that key because it was harder to reach,etc, and that caused him to pay attention to something else because his attention span was now turned to something because of his ever so slightly delayed response, having to make split decisions on the fly or react to harassment,etc. It's hard to take all these into account and really separate them into testing variables.
I don't particularly like discussing the butterfly effect because the concept while I understand it's importance in concept, it's not really applicable in practice, because how we would ever know what affected what? So while I admit there's no way to tell for sure what exactly will affect racial balance or skill differentials because that is subjective based on how someone likes to play or their natural strengths to reach further or hit certain key positions easier,etc we all have different strengths and weaknesses but at least if we hold everyone to the same standard of keys, it makes the variables less chaotic.
You could though make a good argument saying that customizing hotkeys is comparable to customized keyboard and mouse. Having a slight edge because you are more comfortable with your customized mouse size/pad vs your opponent is legitimate at higher levels of play. So then if you agree with being able to customize your mouse and keyboard, then I guess you'd have to say customizing hotkeys isn't much different. Otherwise you'd also have to question customizing mouse and keyboards as well. It is definitely a gray area, because sports do give advantage for people who have certain qualities, like being tall,etc for starcraft it is having fast, precise hands that have good reach,etc. So where exactly do we draw the line?
I am w8ing for all of these teamliquid/reddit elitists who are fighting so vehemently to keep something this insignificant out of the game to go full pro and beat jeadong and flash when the remastered with custom hotkeys comes out. The "undeniable advantage" that's supposed to be this groundbreaking like playing against someone without a monitor should make it easy for you.
See you in the next ASL finals in Korea endymion!
This is a ridiculously egregious straw-man. Absolutely nobody in this thread is asserting they will beat Flash or Jaedong with custom hotkeys allowed. and you know it.
Ofc it is ridiculous. It is equally ridiculous to suggest that customisable hotkeys affect balance as bad as playing against somebody without a monitor.
Btw like in your op, it is not MBS/automine/unlimited select that made SC2 the "inferior" game to BW.
It is not the only reason, but it is certainly a significant component of why SC2 wasn't as enjoyable to play or watch, especially for people who appreciated the emphasis BW players on the "TS" part of RTS.
This is entirely subjective. I refuse to just settle with the mindset that sc2 was just bound to fail because it didn't blindly copy BW. A successful RTS doesn't hinge on having no MBS/automine/unlimited select and no customisable hotkeys. There are other ways to build a great RTS, even though (nobody in this forum wants to believe/hear this ) some people in this forum dont want to believe/hear this, because they are just satisfied to call anything different from BW as "inferior" to feed their superiority complex.
It was clear from the get go (2007) that sc2 was gonna have these things and that it would focus on other aspects (sped up game-play etc.), which would make it by definition a different game from BW. This did not make it a failure before its release, and everyone who played BW should have known that the game would be vastly different and would require a different skillset.
Now there are a lot of (subjective) reasons of why sc2 is actually not good in terms of design such as the economy system, pathing problems and lacking unit interactions. With each of these categories you could write an essay on why sc2 isn't satisfying to play.
I don't think he was saying that, but it was a bad argument from him in response to an argument from you which was "Hotkeys don't affect balance, period".
THat isn't a very good, or likely scenario either. Hotkeys are the inputs to the game, and changing them will have some alteration (regardless of how minor) on the gameplay. If you want to argue the effects on gameplay are insanely small, that's a reasonable argument. If you're going to say hotkeys have no effect on the game at all...that's a pretty difficult thing to imagine, it almost certainly exerts some effect.
In terms of whether or not MBS/automine/etc. affected how good SC2 is; I agree it's subjective, and it's why I ended with the statement "especially for people who appreciated the "TS" part of RTS games". It's certainly possible to have different RTS games emphasizing different thing's that appeal to different people.
So yes, I agree with you that SC2 wasn't destined to be inferior to BW simply because they chose to have automine, MBS, and smartcasting and I have no doubt you could make a great RTS with these features. However, if you're a hardcore BW player that is really into BW (i.e. most BW forum regulars) then it's likely there are certain features in an RTS you especially appreciated, two of which are mechanical skill and emphasis upon strategic time decisions and prioritization of time.
There is certainly an argument to be made that emphasizing these sorts of things is a good RTS design feature, and there is little doubt they have contributed to making BW a great game.
While not having time decisions/mechanics emphasized to the same degree as BW doesn't mean an RTS can't be a good game, it's likely that if you're a serious BW player that type of RTS won't appeal to you; hence my agreement that it is a very subjective thing.
This is such an important conversation. Thanks for having the courage to state your ideas and stand up for them. I remember those discussions prior to SC2's launch about how unlimited unit and building selection would fundamentally change the game, but those discussions went largely ignored, probably to the detriment of the longevity of SC2 as a whole. I don't think we should compromise the functionality that makes BW so great for any reason.
That said, I lean more towards IntoTheWow's opinion. It clearly will have an effect, and if top players remap the hotkeys for efficiency and take the time to readjust their muscle memory, it's not hard to imagine the slightest timing advantages giving way to the difference between wins and losses at least some of the time. If Zerg gets easier to play and Terran sees very little advantage from hotkey remapping, that might have an impact on the balance of the matchup as a whole. But we're talking about tiny fractions of a second difference. That works out to perhaps a few more eapm. I'm not convinced that this will be game-breaking or substantial. As far as accuracy is concerned, don't some players still take keys off of their keyboards to ensure higher accuracy anyway?
If more people start playing as result, that could be considered a concession, however if the cost is minuscule or irrelevant then it would clearly be worth the change. But, crucially, I think Blizzard should monitor the effects of this change carefully and they should not hesitate to revert the change if the balance at the top levels of play is clearly and permanently changed.
I'm drunk, but please hear me out. Meta and I had a similar conversation about 5 years ago playing a zvt on some random-ass non-ladder SC2 map. We're all the same, broodwar players, 1.18.x players, sc2 players. the only way that we differ is our slight preference for more accessibility for whatever reason it may be. sc2 players (god help their souls) are defensive of auto mine and MBS. personally, i think it's degenerate and ABSOLUTELY kills the spirit of starcraft.. so who is right??? those of you that have been around for a hot minute will remember a pretty infamous quote from Idra when he said (with regard to sc2) "why am i losing? i trained in korea for 2 years to be a better terran, i shouldn't be losing to scrubs in sc2." people thought that he was just being a prissy dick, but what he said really spoke to me. each game feeds a different audience, obviously, and idra was frustrated that sc2 didn't cater to his particular high apm high attention to detail skill set (and i share his frustrations, you couldn't pay me to pay sc2 past wings of liberty).
with this thought in mind, i hope that people can understand my statement of "i don't want to think less of my opponents because of this change." I said earlier in the thread that i had (and have) a lot of trouble hitting 'o' consistently during my macro cycles, so i stand to benefit a lot from this change. if it was 'e,' my macro in broodwar would be on par with jaedong/effort if not surpassing it given recent vods.. but that's bullshit to me. my problems as a player are my own, and that's part of this wacky journey that i have been on for the past like 20 years as a broodwar player... the deficiency defines part of who i am as a player, and it's threatened by this change for seemingly no reason... likewise, i don't want my opponents to be forced to give up that deficiency either. maybe i'm the fucking noobest macro zerg ever, but it means a LOT to me... i was talking to Cecil in PM, and I said something along the lines of: "this is so important to me that i think i will just play scbw until 1.16.1 inevitably dies, then i will never touch 1.18.x." I genuinely think it is a change in the game, and i do not appreciate it.
Back to what i said in the first paragraph: each version appeals to someone specifically. so can we at least get an option to disable rebindable hotkeys in a lobby? or on a specific ladder?
i really don't mean to insult anyone, i'm just very VERY defensive of 1.16.1 and it's all out of love and passion for 1.16.1, and it absolutely kills me to see it on the chopping block.
On June 03 2017 11:15 Endymion wrote: I'm drunk, but please hear me out. Meta and I had a similar conversation about 5 years ago playing a zvt on some random-ass non-ladder SC2 map. We're all the same, broodwar players, 1.18.x players, sc2 players. the only way that we differ is our slight preference for more accessibility for whatever reason it may be.
I mean, no not really. Would you honestly play sc2 if it didn't have mbs/automine? I know I wouldn't. Claiming we differ only for preference of accessibility is not true.
On June 03 2017 11:15 Endymion wrote: sc2 players (god help their souls) are defensive of auto mine and MBS. personally, i think it's degenerate and ABSOLUTELY kills the spirit of starcraft.. so who is right??
Meh, you are entitled to your opinion but I do not agree.
those of you that have been around for a hot minute will remember a pretty infamous quote from Idra when he said (with regard to sc2) "why am i losing? i trained in korea for 2 years to be a better terran, i shouldn't be losing to scrubs in sc2." people thought that he was just being a prissy dick, but what he said really spoke to me. each game feeds a different audience, obviously, and idra was frustrated that sc2 didn't cater to his particular high apm high attention to detail skill set (and i share his frustrations, you couldn't pay me to pay sc2 past wings of liberty).
I do not want to speak on IdrAs behalf, but as I said before already, Sc2 had and still has a ton of design problems, which made/makes the game really frustrating to play. I don't think IdrAs frustration was exclusively because of the easier user interface (if at all). I helped on Starbow and IdrA played that for a while giving mostly positive feedback, so I don't think the user interface was the biggest problem for him. So it leaves me with a different impression. And tbh IdrA was often frustrated in sc1, (ranting against protoss players).
On that note I also want to point out a funny little personal observation of a trend of BW players. Every time I saw a BW player and friends of mine switch to Sc2 and even Sbow and go against experienced players: they just come in and expect to win everything right of the bad, because they played the "elite superior super hard-core no newb allowed ultimate Brood fucking War". But as soon as they lose in their first game, they start taking the loss personally and start shouting like little crybabies : "i was fucking c+ in BW, how can I lose. They just added a ton of stupid gimmicks in the game. This game is stupid". They just expect to win in a game they never played before, right off the bad against experienced players, because they think they are the superior ultimate RTS-gamers and anything less than winning the game would be an affront to their ego and superiority.
no mbs/unlimited select/ automining make the game be based around certain positioning strategies that you lose entirely upon removing those constraints and day 9 actually defended those when talking about bw. Those kind of tactics and skills cannot be carried over to sc2 which makes it frustrating to BW players. So they just start shouting; "if you would have to select only 12 units at a time, I would beat you".
with this thought in mind, i hope that people can understand my statement of "i don't want to think less of my opponents because of this change."
This statement just really rubs me the wrong way. Do you think of sc2 players as "lesser players"? Do you think everyone who tries out SC:R due to customisable hotkeys are "lesser players" and "degenerate", especially if they are glad not having to put up with this archaic system? If they beat you in 1.18.x/SC:R, will you dwell on "well on 1.16.1 they wouldn't have had a chance"? Even though it shows how much you still have to/can improve as a player without taking into account original hotkeys. Does it make you feel more special if you beat someone in 1.16? Will you feel less depressed about losing in 1.16 than in 1.18?
I said earlier in the thread that i had (and have) a lot of trouble hitting 'o' consistently during my macro cycles, so i stand to benefit a lot from this change. if it was 'e,' my macro in broodwar would be on par with jaedong/effort if not surpassing it given recent vods.. but that's bullshit to me. my problems as a player are my own, and that's part of this wacky journey that i have been on for the past like 20 years as a broodwar player... the deficiency defines part of who i am as a player, and it's threatened by this change for seemingly no reason... likewise, i don't want my opponents to be forced to give up that deficiency either. maybe i'm the fucking noobest macro zerg ever, but it means a LOT to me... i was talking to Cecil in PM, and I said something along the lines of: "this is so important to me that i think i will just play scbw until 1.16.1 inevitably dies, then i will never touch 1.18.x." I genuinely think it is a change in the game, and i do not appreciate it.
Back to what i said in the first paragraph: each version appeals to someone specifically. so can we at least get an option to disable rebindable hotkeys in a lobby? or on a specific ladder? i really don't mean to insult anyone, i'm just very VERY defensive of 1.16.1 and it's all out of love and passion for 1.16.1, and it absolutely kills me to see it on the chopping block
You can already rebind hotkeys on a lot of keyboards these days. I am sure you have faced people playing with custom hotkeys already, even though it might be technically still considered cheating. Did you notice a difference? Could you exactly tell who was using it? Probably not, so why make a big fuss about it when you are going to face such players on a regular basis now. If you like the extra-difficulty as a BW player to play with the original hotkeys, you can still do that you know. Nobody forces you to switch. Or don't you want to do that because the "lesser people" would have an "unfair advantage" and you will blame every loss on that? It really makes you look petty and miserable.
As for the extra options. I think you and I know that those wont be implemented in the game, for the better or the worse.
I am guessing that the rebinding will affect the balance, especially at casual levels. Arguably, of course, Terran has a slight upper hand in BW. I'm guessing that re rebinding will make terran, specifically mech, much easier to play. One of the hardest parts about playing mech right now is laying mine fields and sieging/unsieging quickly because those keys are I and U. I suspect binding both those to "E" or something "R" or something super easy will become very popular and ladder will be rampant with meching Terrans. I know this wasn't much of an obstacle for the top Terrans, ofc, but being that mech is viable in all matchups, and will be significantly easier to play with the rebind, I am guessing we will see a huge balance shift for most casual players (D/C)
Maybe I am wrong, of course, but if I had to lay a guess out there about what rebinding will do to the game, balance wise, this is it. I think it will aid Terran disproportionately.
On June 04 2017 00:53 CursOr wrote: I am guessing that the rebinding will affect the balance, especially at casual levels. Arguably, of course, Terran has a slight upper hand in BW. I'm guessing that re rebinding will make terran, specifically mech, much easier to play. One of the hardest parts about playing mech right now is laying mine fields and sieging/unsieging quickly because those keys are I and U. I suspect binding both those to "E" or something "R" or something super easy will become very popular and ladder will be rampant with meching Terrans. I know this wasn't much of an obstacle for the top Terrans, ofc, but being that mech is viable in all matchups, and will be significantly easier to play with the rebind, I am guessing we will see a huge balance shift for most casual players (D/C)
Maybe I am wrong, of course, but if I had to lay a guess out there about what rebinding will do to the game, balance wise, this is it. I think it will aid Terran disproportionately.
"O" and "I" are next to each other for sieging and mines respectively.
i don't think it's much of a difference regardless, but i'd see your case if the player had to hit keys on opposite sides of the keyboard (for their army control).
people made the same sort of argument, mechanical vs non-mechanical when the mechanical keyboards first emerged on the market. all i can say is merely placebo. same with ingame skins and cosmetics, they make you play better if you're in the mindset to believe (and keep believing) that they do.
i can't articulate this properly, but i feel a lot of gamers make these arguments about their preference for their own piece of mind or to show the world that they know what they're talking about when it comes to something that could be almost entirely subjective. in other phrasing, it's unfounded elitism.
when it comes to idra, i think it's a simple case of relieving stress or frustration experienced in the games. what do people do in team games? look out for mistakes and blame teammates. this is considered toxic behavior because it's not actually constructive and it doesn't solve the problems with the team to enable a win later down the road. what do people do in 1:1 games like starcraft? balance whine, whether it's relevant or not. it doesn't necessarily make that person bad and it can be seen as completely human, but it's undisputable that it normally doesn't make the situation better for anybody but the person themselves.
i think *this* is actually off the wall and misleading, and it doesn't matter who is saying it:
On June 03 2017 11:15 Endymion wrote: I said earlier in the thread that i had (and have) a lot of trouble hitting 'o' consistently during my macro cycles, so i stand to benefit a lot from this change. if it was 'e,' my macro in broodwar would be on par with jaedong/effort if not surpassing it given recent vods...
you are not saying that you would do as well/better given the same pressure and same level of opponent, you are saying that in a good or ideal game for yourself, you could match a top level pro in one aspect, simply.
and while you're figuring out what you're saying all this for, which i admire the passion for, i think most of the arguments that can ever be made have been exhausted for this moment and it's a matter of how/how not to implement the feature.
all i can really say is, time to let go. it's a smaller deal than you think. really and seriously no matter how seriously you take it, it's a game at the end of the day. in the worst case scenario you quit playing the game with the rest of the world and maybe commit to a FISH account to play solely on that server with likeminded people, but even that has its positives.
On June 03 2017 20:12 404AlphaSquad wrote: I mean, no not really. Would you honestly play sc2 if it didn't have mbs/automine? I know I wouldn't. Claiming we differ only for preference of accessibility is not true.
Implying that mbs/automine are preferences of accessibility is pigeonholing some important design decisions. Don't do that. It's clear you don't respect these ideas as intelligent and valuable decisions, at least with your posts here.
On June 03 2017 20:12 404AlphaSquad wrote: On that note I also want to point out a funny little personal observation of a trend of BW players. Every time I saw a BW player and friends of mine switch to Sc2 ... snip
Here's a point I think would be really valuable for you: BW players really like the mechanical aspects. Things like wacky walloffs, odd unit behaviors, wacky pathfinding, limited unit selection, hard-coded hotkeys, etc. They really like these things for a lot of valid reasons. When a game developer releases a sequel, generally the goal is to take the sequel, identify the core sources of joy from the original, and expand upon this core in a new light.
What these players are expressing is generally not elitism in the sense of casting superiority onto new SC2 players. They are expressing a distaste and unmet expectations. SC2 did not respect BW in any way. If we go back and look at Dustin Browder's comments about BW, he completely ignores BW. Lets list some interviews.
Link - Browder explaining he has a lot of trouble finding value in "sports". He says he has extreme difficulty, and it's hard for designers to make something fun that would be great in a sport. Problem here is Brood War was made to be fun, and the community made it into a sport with the help of the map-making tools. Balance in Brood War was a long term community driven process. Brood War placed all the pieces in place, and left it to the community from there. That's how an ESport is created. Browder clearly has no understanding of this in the making of SC2, and refuses to acknowledge the brilliance of BW in any way.
Dustin Browder wrote: Well, what we're trying to do is create a game that hearkens back to the legacy of the original. We felt the original was such a strong game that we didn't want to run off and abandon it and do whatever. We wanted it to feel like you were coming home to a game that you knew and loved.
That sounds great! Exactly what Brood War players are expecting. Right? Okay, but the very next thing Browder says is:
Dustin Browder wrote: At the same time, we're trying to create all-new gameplay elements, trying to create a gameplay experience that still has as much learning for you as the original StarCraft and the original Brood War did. You feel like you have to expand your mind, try new stuff; you get a chance to be creative, [and] you might be able to discover something no one's ever seen before, which is clearly not as likely these days with StarCraft and Brood War.
This is a straight up admittance that he clearly does not understand the "legacy" of the original. All those claims about staying true, not abandoning, those were just PR fluff. It's impossible to keep the BW core if you also want players to "expand their mind", and "be creative". BW was a mechanically difficult real-time game, and people loved it. It was never a chess game, or a turn based strategy game, or a creative space.
"Cleary not as likely with BW". Wow. Such disrespect. What about that long Zerg dominance in the 2000's, where eventually Bisu revolutionized the ZvP/PvZ matchup? That kind of build-up and cathartic release is something the BW community will never forget! That kind of power should be respected. Not tossed aside for "creativity". That kind of stallout of strategy, only to be broken by a mechanically brilliant, and strategically brilliant player, IS THE LEGACY that Browder claimed he wanted to hearken to.
Link - Browder talking about SC2 at a very early (and very telling) stage:
Dustin Browder wrote: It's certainly our goal to surpass the first game. We have had the advantage of looking at Brood War, looking at what was successful and what wasn't successful, and we really tried to pick nothing that's not successful (though fans would argue, I'm sure). I think we've made improvements in a lot of ways.
The quote is also a big problem. They saw Brood War's success as something to surpass, and wanted to look forward to something new. They didn't respect Brood War itself for giving rise to success, no, they respected the success itself. It's sort of like, respecting the diamonds that come out of a diamond mine, but having no respect for the diamond miner itself. Brood War is an old diamond miner, and it works well. If you want more diamonds, you better have a lot of respect for that old diamond miner, and learn a lot from it.
The really bad part is "we tried to pick nothing that's not successful". It's a double negative, but he meant they don't want to bring over BW mistakes. The reason this part is bad, is because it relies on omniscient judgement to define what was "bad" about BW. If I were to pick a specific thing out of BW I thought was bad, and leave it out of the sequal, I guarantee you it would be a pretty bad decision in a lot of regards.
For SC2 they had upgraded "path finding", because it was "modern". Right? BW path finding was shitty. Right?
This brought on the death-ball of SC2, and it never left. There are tons of modern pathfinding types that could easily have emulated the positive repercussions of having poor pathfinding in BW. To name a few emergent properties of poor pathing: AoE is less effective, player focus has to be allocated towards army movements, game-specific knowledge must be built by the player in terms of unique or wacky behaviors, armies did not naturally form a death-ball. Take a look at Arbiter recalls. It actually takes focus to group Protoss units together to make a beefy recall! Suddenly recalling is in and of itself an interesting player-skill that can be refined over practice.
These are the kind of attributes that were cut out of SC2, and in a word: disrespected.
So when players like Endymion come along and see a similar philosophy that existed in the development of SC2, now applied to SC:R, they will be pretty angry. They have a right to be angry, and their anger carries a lot of merit.
The points I've made here can also be extended to the map editor of SC2. When it was released, it was a hot mess. Completely different than the BW editor, and way harder to use. It didn't carry any of the valuable aspects of the BW editor. The BW editor was the tool that enabled the BW community to balance the game over the course of time. The editor itself allowed BW to become an ESport.
In similar fashion BNet 2.0 was a giant failure. Why? The same fundamental problem: the SC2 team did not respect BW. They instead of reflecting on BW to carefully craft a new product, they tried to start fresh and make something different. BNet 2.0 didn't have fucking chat channels. How the hell does that even happen? lmao. BNet 2.0 gets me so flustered I even have trouble writing down a good argument.
In all the fundamental problem with SC2 across the board is that the development team did not play BW. They did not really like BW. They didn't respect BW. Hardly any of the developers worked on BW. None of the top leaders from BW development were left at Blizzard. These developers came from a background of World of Warcraft/WC3, and Browder himself came from Command Conquer (which is widely renowned for it's shitty competitive balance).
Hopefully you find this post a little enlightening, and can at least understanding the PoV of many BW players. They had expectations that SC2 would expand on BW, rather than do it's own weird thing.
It's completely possible for a sequel to really hit the nail on the head. Consider these examples:
Zelda 1 -- ALTTP
Megaman Series -- Megaman X
ALTTP -- Link Between Worlds
Sonic -- Sonic 2 -- Sonic 3 -- Sonic and Knuckles
Any Castlevania Games
Any Fire Emblem Games
Any Pokemon Games
Diablo 1 -- Diablo 2
These games are widely regarded as extremely good sequels. The thing is that Japanese game designers are really fucking good at respecting their elders, heritage, and in general the past. When they make a sequel they are capable of making some really fucking good sequels.
But we also see Diablo 1 and 2 listed in there. Basically everyone that likes one of those games is also fond of the other. Why is that? I can tell you, a lot of the core developers on BW also worked on D1, and some carried over to D2.
Good sequels arise from really good developers.
My argument boils down to this:
1. Good sequels come from good developers 2. BW fans in general, more or less unanimously dislike SC2 3. But, many other games have sequels that fans really enjoyed (see above list) 4. Therefor, SC2 design failed to make a good sequel 5. To support 4, we can look at a bunch of old Browder posts to find that he's really just incompetent for the job
Actually let me add on a point 6. talking about why they did all these. They did it to make money. There was a lot of hype around BW and the concept of ESports. Blizzard wanted to make profit. BW was not profitable at it's current state for Blizzard. So they used profits as a goal to dismantle Kespa and the Korean BW scene and tried to supplant a new system that would funnel money to Blizzard. That was the goal, and they tunnel visioned that goal really hard.
In any case, when we come along as see older players like Endymion, they may not be able to fully express why they have these vast unmet expectations, or why they have distaste to some of SC:R development, but it does not mean their opinions are without merit.
with this thought in mind, i hope that people can understand my statement of "i don't want to think less of my opponents because of this change."
This statement just really rubs me the wrong way. Do you think of sc2 players as "lesser players"?
In a word: yeah. To expand... SC2 lacked mechanisms for a "better" player to win vs a "lesser player". Defining better and lesser is highly subjective from person to person. However, for BW players better and lesser are clearly defined by winning and losing in BW. Since SC2 is a sequel, and these BW players had exceptions of a good sequel, not a fucking shitty one, obviously they will want to beat players that would be bad at BW. It's a natural and valid expectation.
So in the realm of BW, they are actually lesser players. It's not really elitism kicking in, it's unmet expectations.
I don't think your examples are very good or comparable Most of those examples are exclusively people who just do the campaign and then beat the game, put it back on the shelf, and wait for the next big sequel. That also applies for the VAST majority of Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 players.
They have an incredibly low bar for a sequel compared to define a successful sequel.
What? lol. There are a lot of very hardcore fans for all those games... Like to point of a cult following. And those fans rather love those sequels. Sure, lots of Westerners play those games and put them back on the shelf without much attachment. But it's sort of irrelevant? Those games were all really successful because they sold a lot of copies, and each sequel sold a lot of copies.
Exactly why they sold so many copies, and remained loved by players in general, doesn't really have to do with casually playing them and putting them on shelves.
To me it just sounds like you yourself are one of those Western players without much attachment (for the games in the examples), and assume your position is more important/relevant than it is when talking about the grand scheme of things.
BW didn't form an ESport and carry on for decades because of those "low bar" players you brought up. SC2 didn't spawn because the vast majority of players had some kind of low expectation. We're talking about what made BW great, and what makes sequels great. Specifically on the context of defending posters like Endymion. How do these campaign players even matter? It's not like they are here on TL posting in these kinds of threads. Those people aren't here.
On June 04 2017 03:59 CecilSunkure wrote: What? lol. There are a lot of very hardcore fans for all those games... Like to point of a cult following. And those fans rather love those sequels. Sure, lots of Westerners play those games and put them back on the shelf without much attachment. But it's sort of irrelevant? Those games were all really successful because they sold a lot of copies, and each sequel sold a lot of copies.
Exactly why they sold so many copies, and remained loved by players in general, doesn't really have to do with casually playing them and putting them on shelves.
To me it just sounds like you yourself are one of those Western players without much attachment (for the games in the examples), and assume your position is more important/relevant than it is when talking about the grand scheme of things.
BW didn't form an ESport and carry on for decades because of those "low bar" players you brought up. SC2 didn't spawn because the vast majority of players had some kind of low expectation. We're talking about what made BW great, and what makes sequels great. Specifically on the context of defending posters like Endymion. How do these campaign players even matter? It's not like they are here on TL posting in these kinds of threads. Those people aren't here.
And SC2 didn't sell a lot of copies? My point was a great pokemon isn't going to be held to the same standard a great rts game is going to need to because they only have to keep you occupied for a certain amount of hours, exploration and things to do on the side is a more important aspect than the actual gameplay interaction itself. Especially when balance, unit interaction, and asymmetrical design come into play, they're not even comparable.
"BW didn't form an ESport and carry on for decades because of those "low bar" players you brought up"
That's why none of those games come even close to the same standard we're talking about here. There aren't people playing competitive Pokemon in Gen 1 and Gen 2 5 years after the next gen came out.
"How do these campaign players even matter? It's not like they are here on TL posting in these kinds of threads. Those people aren't here."
Because you're bringing games that are only played for the campaign in a discussion about making a good sequel. I think comparing COMPETITIVE titles would be far more relevant here.
Okay well, do you have any examples? So far I did bring up D1 and D2. Unfortunately I didn't have internet access when I was younger, so I missed out on a lot of cool online games. So maybe you can pitch on some online examples?
On June 04 2017 04:22 CecilSunkure wrote: Okay well, do you have any examples? So far I did bring up D1 and D2. Unfortunately I didn't have internet access when I was younger, so I missed out on a lot of cool online games. So maybe you can pitch on some online examples?
I said competitive .
Overall, I think there are very few sequels that are like that. That's my point. What you're describing is actually very difficult to do in a competitive title. Especially if the sequel isn't remaking 1:1 and playing with everyone's toolkits.
Fighting games would probably be the closest thing though. They kinda have to deal with the same issues of streamlining to help new blood come in versus maintaining the very high skill gap.
Ultimately I'm sympathetic towards the idea of streamlining in SC2's case because of the state of the popularity of the genre. I kinda feel if there absolutely no concessions ever made, the scene would look like where Quake is today.
On June 04 2017 04:44 lestye wrote: Overall, I think there are very few sequels that are like that. That's my point.
I see, good point
On June 04 2017 04:44 lestye wrote: Ultimately I'm sympathetic towards the idea of streamlining in SC2's case because of the state of the popularity of the genre. I kinda feel if there absolutely no concessions ever made, the scene would look like where Quake is today.
What kind of streamlining, if I may ask? I'm curious.
If I take a look at BW and think about what I would do for a sequel, I definitely wouldn't have the word streamlining on my mind. So that's interesting to me.
On June 03 2017 20:12 404AlphaSquad wrote: I mean, no not really. Would you honestly play sc2 if it didn't have mbs/automine? I know I wouldn't. Claiming we differ only for preference of accessibility is not true.
Implying that mbs/automine are preferences of accessibility is pigeonholing some important design decisions. Don't do that. It's clear you don't respect these ideas as intelligent and valuable decisions, at least with your posts here.
You clearly misunderstood my point. The point I am trying to make is that BW elitists like Endymion argue that sc2 is a failure mainly if not exclusively because of mbs and automine which could not be further from the truth. SC2 has a ton of different problems and SC2 wont be magically better if it didnt have those things. Endymion implied that sc2 and BW people only differ themselves in preference of accessibility which is completely wrong for anyone who actually played both games. I played like 7 years of BW and 5 years of SC2 and both games couldn't be more different, even if you ignore the UI choices. BW would still be the better game if it had all those things.
On June 04 2017 03:39 CecilSunkure wrote: In all the fundamental problem with SC2 across the board is that the development team did not play BW. They did not really like BW. They didn't respect BW. Hardly any of the developers worked on BW. None of the top leaders from BW development were left at Blizzard. These developers came from a background of World of Warcraft/WC3, and Browder himself came from Command Conquer (which is widely renowned for it's shitty competitive balance).
Hopefully you find this post a little enlightening, and can at least understanding the PoV of many BW players. They had expectations that SC2 would expand on BW, rather than do it's own weird thing.
This is not true at all. Alot of the original BW designers worked on sc2. Among them was Rob Pardo (at least initially) and the decision was already made to have MBS and automine from the beginning.
Also I do understand BW players. I also had high hopes for sc2, but realistically speaking everyone should have known the moment they changed those mechanics that it wouldn't be the same game. I dont hang myself up on the argument "MBS/automine = bad" . It is bad for BW, because that is just how the game is built. But you cannot argue that MBS and automine will always be bad no matter what in an RTS, because that is backwards thinking. (even if alot of BW players think like this)
On June 04 2017 03:39 CecilSunkure wrote: My argument boils down to this:
1. Good sequels come from good developers 2. BW fans in general, more or less unanimously dislike SC2 3. But, many other games have sequels that fans really enjoyed (see above list) 4. Therefor, SC2 design failed to make a good sequel 5. To support 4, we can look at a bunch of old Browder posts to find that he's really just incompetent for the job
Actually let me add on a point 6. talking about why they did all these. They did it to make money.
1. yes 2. yes, as a former BW player, I dislike sc2 too (but as mentioned before on multiple occasions it isnt because of mbs/automine) 3. yes 4. debatable, but I mostly agree 5. Tbh I do not really want to blame one PR guy for it. These days companies have entire teams working for a game and just show the "responsible" guy without us even knowing how much say he was gonna have in the product in the first place. For example; i have heard that the art team came up with the thor and browder did not want it in the game, but didnt have a choice in the matter. 6. yes like any other company, they do things for profit So I dont even understand why you wrote all this if we agree on the part that sc2 is different than BW and didnt meet expectations of BW players?
with this thought in mind, i hope that people can understand my statement of "i don't want to think less of my opponents because of this change."
This statement just really rubs me the wrong way. Do you think of sc2 players as "lesser players"?
In a word: yeah. To expand... SC2 lacked mechanisms for a "better" player to win vs a "lesser player". Defining better and lesser is highly subjective from person to person. However, for BW players better and lesser are clearly defined by winning and losing in BW. Since SC2 is a sequel, and these BW players had exceptions of a good sequel, not a fucking shitty one, obviously they will want to beat players that would be bad at BW. It's a natural and valid expectation.
So in the realm of BW, they are actually lesser players. It's not really elitism kicking in, it's unmet expectations.
Here we go again with the superiority complex. While I agree that sc2 lacks certain mechanisms to allow for players to differentiate themselves more, (more meaningful unit interactions allowing for more micro/ comeback mechanics/ positional play/ map securing) and it is among the reasons I don't enjoy it that much. I wouldn't be so arrogant and dismiss a whole player-base as "lesser players". And I am sorry if you think you are better than another entire community, not only are you toxic but arrogant and delusional too.
if modifying hotkeys really has a noticeable effect on bw balance, why haven't i ever seen discussions on which language version of the game currently has the best hotkey arrangement for high level play?
On June 04 2017 08:24 404AlphaSquad wrote: 5. Tbh I do not really want to blame one PR guy for it. These days companies have entire teams working for a game and just show the "responsible" guy without us even knowing how much say he was gonna have in the product in the first place. For example; i have heard that the art team came up with the thor and browder did not want it in the game, but didnt have a choice in the matter.
I don't think you really have a strong concept of game development. Projects are actually led by a small number of individuals, and the big shots are called by them. That goes back to my point about how the company was completely different during SC2 dev compared to BW dev. You can sit there and say "no, sc2 had some bw devs", but man that's just really ignorant.
Some of the major players in BW dev were people Pat Wyatt, Jeff Strain, Mike O'Brien. None of them were there for SC2. If the leaders are gone, the dev team will take on drastically different style.
On June 04 2017 08:24 404AlphaSquad wrote: Here we go again with the superiority complex.
Personally I don't think that if someone is bad at BW, goes to SC2, and gets frustrated they lose to someone that never put in the hard work to develop BW-like mechanics, that it's necessarily elitism. But whatever. If you want to continue labeling people I'm done discussing it.
On June 04 2017 04:44 lestye wrote: Ultimately I'm sympathetic towards the idea of streamlining in SC2's case because of the state of the popularity of the genre. I kinda feel if there absolutely no concessions ever made, the scene would look like where Quake is today.
What kind of streamlining, if I may ask? I'm curious.
If I take a look at BW and think about what I would do for a sequel, I definitely wouldn't have the word streamlining on my mind. So that's interesting to me.
Ultimately, the type of streamlining that I think is completely inevitable are stuff like automine, keybinds, MBS, and having pathing AI that you don't have to babysit units constantly.
I don't think stuff like the clump-up pathing or unlimited grouping would need to be one of those concessions. The lack of the other 3 would probably frustrate new audiences that make it feel like they're fighting with archaic systems, even if those archaic systems made Brood War something incredible.
I don't think a game being released in 2017 can having really weird keybinds that cant be rebound because of the previous game in the series would fly.
On June 04 2017 08:24 404AlphaSquad wrote: 5. Tbh I do not really want to blame one PR guy for it. These days companies have entire teams working for a game and just show the "responsible" guy without us even knowing how much say he was gonna have in the product in the first place. For example; i have heard that the art team came up with the thor and browder did not want it in the game, but didnt have a choice in the matter.
I don't think you really have a strong concept of game development. Projects are actually led by a small number of individuals, and the big shots are called by them. That goes back to my point about how the company was completely different during SC2 dev compared to BW dev. You can sit there and say "no, sc2 had some bw devs", but man that's just really ignorant.
Some of the major players in BW dev were people Pat Wyatt, Jeff Strain, Mike O'Brien. None of them were there for SC2. If the leaders are gone, the dev team will take on drastically different style.
On June 04 2017 08:24 404AlphaSquad wrote: Here we go again with the superiority complex.
Personally I don't think that if someone is bad at BW, goes to SC2, and gets frustrated they lose to someone that never put in the hard work to develop BW-like mechanics, that it's necessarily elitism. But whatever. If you want to continue labeling people I'm done discussing it.
I think you're completely ignoring the major players that were still there. Also most of these decisions aren't just made by a few people but collectively.
On June 04 2017 08:24 404AlphaSquad wrote: Here we go again with the superiority complex.
Personally I don't think that if someone is bad at BW, goes to SC2, and gets frustrated they lose to someone that never put in the hard work to develop BW-like mechanics, that it's necessarily elitism. But whatever. If you want to continue labeling people I'm done discussing it.
Definition of elitism: the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite. How can anyone fault me for calling parts of bw community elitist if they call sc2 players "lesser players" and "inferior" and consider themselves superior to them (which is what you did in your original post). You may not want to see it as elitism, but it fits the definition perfectly.
On June 03 2017 08:33 Meta wrote: This is such an important conversation. Thanks for having the courage to state your ideas and stand up for them. I remember those discussions prior to SC2's launch about how unlimited unit and building selection would fundamentally change the game, but those discussions went largely ignored, probably to the detriment of the longevity of SC2 as a whole.
They were ignored by the Blizzard, not the community. Consensus was it will change the game and that SC2 will end as fundamentaly different from BW. There were 2 camps of those who saw this as a bad thing, and those who though it was a good thing (they left BW for SC2) In here, however, there is no consensus that the game will be changed so far that meta will be significantly different.
On June 03 2017 08:33 Meta wrote: I don't think we should compromise the functionality that makes BW so great for any reason.
I would be completely fine without this feature, but still I believe that it wont affect the game drasticaly. I may be wrong thou.
On June 03 2017 08:33 Meta wrote: If more people start playing as result, that could be considered a concession, however if the cost is minuscule or irrelevant then it would clearly be worth the change. But, crucially, I think Blizzard should monitor the effects of this change carefully and they should not hesitate to revert the change if the balance at the top levels of play is clearly and permanently changed.
They had hotkeys during a portion of the Broodwar beta patch, it's not like blizzard wasn't collecting information on win rates and such to see HOW much hotkeys effected the game. I'm all for hotkeys because more people play, people used custom hotkeys back in the day ANYWAY, and it allows more people including myself a reason to get back into some good ol' Broodwar!
On June 04 2017 08:24 404AlphaSquad wrote: Here we go again with the superiority complex.
Personally I don't think that if someone is bad at BW, goes to SC2, and gets frustrated they lose to someone that never put in the hard work to develop BW-like mechanics, that it's necessarily elitism. But whatever. If you want to continue labeling people I'm done discussing it.
Definition of elitism: the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite. How can anyone fault me for calling parts of bw community elitist if they call sc2 players "lesser players" and "inferior" and consider themselves superior to them (which is what you did in your original post). You may not want to see it as elitism, but it fits the definition perfectly.
That's not elitism. I know you're not dumb. So stop trying to be.
Elitism definition: the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society. So no, your definition is completely wrong. An elitist is someone that advocates elite dominance. An elitist can be anyone, even a non-elite. An elite can also not be an elitist.
Elite definition: a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities. So in our case, it would be those with strong BW mechanics.
So to be an elitist one must advocate that the elite dominate a system or society. In our case the elite are those who spent time developing BW mechanics. But they aren't going around enslaving others, or banning them for certain forum posts. The only thing they are an elitist within is the system of playing BW. However I know that's not what you mean by elitism.
When posters like you come along they conflate elitism of winning in BW/SC2 to elitism everywhere in the community. That type of conflation is just a dick move.
Elitism within the system of StarCraft is exactly what an online ladder is about. People with BW mechanics spent an aweful lot of work developing those mechanics, so their elitism (advocacy that the elite should dominate within StarCraft 1v1) actually carries merit.
So just blabbing around on the forums "oh boo hoo you're just an elitist waah that's my argument", is heavily implying A) people shouldn't be elitists at all; B) the elitism has no merit; C) the elitism extends beyond the system of StarCraft into the general forum society/BW community.
The bottom line is it's totally rude to disrespect someone else's merit. Labeling someone an elitist like you and many other posters have been doing, is an asshole move.
If someone really likes BW due to the mechanical nature, and expected that system to exist in SC2 and gets disappointed, that isn't elitism. They are talking about unmet expectations and frustration! Sure the frustration comes from their position as an elite in BW, but that's not even the point. By saying "oh you're an elitist and think SC2 players are inferior" that's A) a straw-man. Nobody said SC2 players are inferior, you did. The BW player is commenting about losing to a mechanically unskilled player at StarCraft - that is not labeling the SC2 player collective. B) You're showing you are also an elitist. You feel the elite at SC2 are not less than the elite in Brood War because the systems are different, and both elites have merit. So not only is calling this BW an elitist hypocritical, it is also asinine. All that's left are the implications the labeling brings, and I've already pointed out how rude those are.
tl;dr Posters running around spouting "ELITISM": you look stupid, and you're not contributing positively to the forums
On June 05 2017 01:27 CecilSunkure wrote: By saying "oh you're an elitist and think SC2 players are inferior" that's A) a straw-man. Nobody said SC2 players are inferior, you did.
If you can point out where I said sc2 players are inferior, that would be great! I can point out where you said it though.
FailFish. Focus on something irrelevant instead of making real points. I've already taken the due diligence to carefully respond to your points. The least you can do is the same for me, instead of ignoring them.
I was referring to:
This statement just really rubs me the wrong way. Do you think of sc2 players as "lesser players"? Do you think everyone who tries out SC:R due to customisable hotkeys are "lesser players" and "degenerate", especially if they are glad not having to put up with this archaic system?
Where you made some assumptions and leapt from lesser in the context of BW mechanics, to lesser in some more broad and derogatory fashion.
On June 06 2017 07:33 CecilSunkure wrote: FailFish. Focus on something irrelevant instead of making real points. I've already taken the due diligence to carefully respond to your points. The least you can do is the same for me, instead of ignoring them.
This statement just really rubs me the wrong way. Do you think of sc2 players as "lesser players"? Do you think everyone who tries out SC:R due to customisable hotkeys are "lesser players" and "degenerate", especially if they are glad not having to put up with this archaic system?
Where you made some assumptions and leapt from lesser in the context of BW mechanics, to lesser in some more broad and derogatory fashion.
So people who dont play BW are worse in BW than people who do play BW. Thank you very much. This was a useful discussion. I would argue too that people who play SC2 have an advantage against players who dont play sc2! Unfortunately this logic wont make sense for BW players because of the reason below:
On June 04 2017 08:24 404AlphaSquad wrote: Here we go again with the superiority complex.
Personally I don't think that if someone is bad at BW, goes to SC2, and gets frustrated they lose to someone that never put in the hard work to develop BW-like mechanics, that it's necessarily elitism. But whatever. If you want to continue labeling people I'm done discussing it.
Granted I was a little off with the term "elitist". How do you like "entitled". They feel like they are entitled to win in a game they never played before because they played BW.
You were also a dick to Endy in your first post, and more or less straw manned him.
On June 06 2017 11:42 404AlphaSquad wrote: So people who dont play BW are worse in BW than people who do play BW. Thank you very much.
Yeah! It's really nothing to get butthurt over... It sounds redundant because I had to spell it out for you. I had to in-depth explain it, since you had such a hard time with it "rubbing you the wrong way", as you put it earlier.
Going over your posts in this thread, you've been shit-posting the entire time.
On June 06 2017 11:42 404AlphaSquad wrote: Players have won sc2 tournaments with BW hotkeys. Hotkeys dont change balance. period.
Here's an example of every one of your arguments. You say some emotionally charged shit, and then make a wild conclusion that doesn't even follow.
nah it's not entitlement, idra was saying that it's dumb that sc2 has such a low skill ceiling (as evident by him losing to mechanically inferior players in his eyes). he was unable to utilize his skillset because the game evens the playing field. it's the exact same argument against hotkey rebindings and the exact same argument against mbs, it's just on a spectrum. bringing in the word "elitist" is meaningless, the arguement is the exact same with or without the personal attack. no one is excluding anyone, people just have opinions one way or the other on mechanical difficulty in starcraft. if sc2 players want to play broodwar that's cool, but it doesn't mean that they can scream "elitist" because bw players want to play bw and not sc2.. additionally it doesn't mean that they should change hotkeys to accommodate them (;
Why are some people so clueless acting as if saying "you suddenly won't beat flash if you start using custom hotkeys" is an argument?
It matters for people that are otherwise equally skilled; so the situation where Flash plays Jaedong, while having a much superior hotkey set-up, will clearly affect the outcome of the game. Having siege mode and irradiate on much more accessible hotkeys will allow him to be even faster and even more precise. You're clueless if you think they don't make mistakes, or if you think that there's no difference between pressing I or O versus something like D or E. After all, your position IS that there's a huge difference between pressing those keys or you wouldn't care about needing custom hotkeys at all.
On June 04 2017 08:24 404AlphaSquad wrote: Here we go again with the superiority complex.
Personally I don't think that if someone is bad at BW, goes to SC2, and gets frustrated they lose to someone that never put in the hard work to develop BW-like mechanics, that it's necessarily elitism. But whatever. If you want to continue labeling people I'm done discussing it.
Definition of elitism: the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite. How can anyone fault me for calling parts of bw community elitist if they call sc2 players "lesser players" and "inferior" and consider themselves superior to them (which is what you did in your original post). You may not want to see it as elitism, but it fits the definition perfectly.
That's not elitism. I know you're not dumb. So stop trying to be.
Elitism definition: the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society. So no, your definition is completely wrong. An elitist is someone that advocates elite dominance. An elitist can be anyone, even a non-elite. An elite can also not be an elitist.
Elite definition: a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities. So in our case, it would be those with strong BW mechanics.
So to be an elitist one must advocate that the elite dominate a system or society. In our case the elite are those who spent time developing BW mechanics. But they aren't going around enslaving others, or banning them for certain forum posts. The only thing they are an elitist within is the system of playing BW. However I know that's not what you mean by elitism.
When posters like you come along they conflate elitism of winning in BW/SC2 to elitism everywhere in the community. That type of conflation is just a dick move.
Elitism within the system of StarCraft is exactly what an online ladder is about. People with BW mechanics spent an aweful lot of work developing those mechanics, so their elitism (advocacy that the elite should dominate within StarCraft 1v1) actually carries merit.
So just blabbing around on the forums "oh boo hoo you're just an elitist waah that's my argument", is heavily implying A) people shouldn't be elitists at all; B) the elitism has no merit; C) the elitism extends beyond the system of StarCraft into the general forum society/BW community.
The bottom line is it's totally rude to disrespect someone else's merit. Labeling someone an elitist like you and many other posters have been doing, is an asshole move.
If someone really likes BW due to the mechanical nature, and expected that system to exist in SC2 and gets disappointed, that isn't elitism. They are talking about unmet expectations and frustration! Sure the frustration comes from their position as an elite in BW, but that's not even the point. By saying "oh you're an elitist and think SC2 players are inferior" that's A) a straw-man. Nobody said SC2 players are inferior, you did. The BW player is commenting about losing to a mechanically unskilled player at StarCraft - that is not labeling the SC2 player collective. B) You're showing you are also an elitist. You feel the elite at SC2 are not less than the elite in Brood War because the systems are different, and both elites have merit. So not only is calling this BW an elitist hypocritical, it is also asinine. All that's left are the implications the labeling brings, and I've already pointed out how rude those are.
tl;dr Posters running around spouting "ELITISM": you look stupid, and you're not contributing positively to the forums
thanks for this post. I vote to put this in the OP of every "balance discussion" Thread in bold, red font. That "elitism" argument was nonsense when it was first brought up and things haven't changed.
One point that I did not see yet but that is worth looking at is the aspect of "fun", both in playing and watching. After all this is a game. So what if I play a game and it's a really close one and come 30 minutes in there is a huge battle and then someone presses "i" instead of "o" and, without siege, the whole climax of this game becomes a one sided massacre. To no surprise the loser will be super frustrated. But even more important, the winner of such a game will most likely also be unhappy or even frustrated about this (if he learns the reason he won). It's still a win and still better than losing, but it's like winning because your enemy had a disconnect. It's just not very satisfying. It's a lose-lose situation. Same is true for watching a game. Sure, people will always lose because of one avoidable mistake, but those are the worst games to watch. Imagine the final game of chess world championship being lost because someone accidentally knocked over a piece. Yes, it's in the rules, yes it's part of the game. But it would kill ALL the fun for EVERYONE.
So to sum it up: yes this will slightly alter the game and I can completely understand anyone who wants to preserve as much as possible. So do I, in general. But aside from this general point of view every aspect should also be view by itself. And, imho, all you could gain from NOT allowing remapping is frustration. I could not come up with a single scenario in which NOT allowing it would lead to anyone having more fun/joy. If you have such an example please share it and I might change my view.
On June 06 2017 12:23 CecilSunkure wrote: You say some emotionally charged shit, and then make a wild conclusion that doesn't even follow.
you mean like the OP?
On May 27 2017 23:12 Endymion wrote: Furthermore,the game won’t ask them to go and read up about “optimal hotkey” layouts
On May 29 2017 21:10 nanaoei wrote: no-rebinds enthusiasts or whoever, go ahead and make a hotkey tutorial for all the budding starcraft players out there.
This is also a funny irony
On June 06 2017 22:32 Endymion wrote: nah it's not entitlement, idra was saying that it's dumb that sc2 has such a low skill ceiling (as evident by him losing to mechanically inferior players in his eyes). he was unable to utilize his skillset because the game evens the playing field.
Citation needed. Also it is funny because at the time IdrA was playing and supposedly complaining the skill ceiling wasn't even close to reached, just as it isn't reached now. I also think you guys are really fucking pretentious. First you complain about the term elitism and then you use terms like "sc2 has such a low skill ceiling". As if anyone would have reached that skill ceiling yet. The only reason to use this word for the game is to imply that it doesn't require as much skill, since the skill ceiling is still unattainable. Only thing missing is some fucking "haha sc2 too ez for me".Fucking despicable attitude.
On June 06 2017 22:34 B-royal wrote: Why are some people so clueless acting as if saying "you suddenly won't beat flash if you start using custom hotkeys" is an argument?
It matters for people that are otherwise equally skilled; so the situation where Flash plays Jaedong, while having a much superior hotkey set-up, will clearly affect the outcome of the game. Having siege mode and irradiate on much more accessible hotkeys will allow him to be even faster and even more precise. You're clueless if you think they don't make mistakes, or if you think that there's no difference between pressing I or O versus something like D or E. After all, your position IS that there's a huge difference between pressing those keys or you wouldn't care about needing custom hotkeys at all.
I don't understand how you can come to this conclusion. I guess you must have an attention deficiency.
My position is that it is a nice QOL change that wouldn't affect gameplay for 99,9999% of the player-base, while being mostly positive that it wouldn't affect professional play either (and even if it did, it doesn't have to be a negative influence). Please point out where I say that it would be tremendous and huge impactful difference if all I do in this thread is downplay the change. to BW purists. I will still play the game, no matter if they implement it or not.
On June 03 2017 20:12 404AlphaSquad wrote: You can already rebind hotkeys on a lot of keyboards these days. I am sure you have faced people playing with custom hotkeys already, even though it might be technically still considered cheating. Did you notice a difference? Could you exactly tell who was using it? Probably not, so why make a big fuss about it when you are going to face such players on a regular basis now. If you like the extra-difficulty as a BW player to play with the original hotkeys, you can still do that you know. Nobody forces you to switch.
What if a progamer plays on a dvorak keyboard layout? Would he be at an advantage?
Do I gain an unfair advantage by practicing on this keyboard?
If thats ok, then what if I design my own keyboard with its own letter layout? for example like this (note I did this in a hurry to make a point) :
Do I gain an unfair advantage by practicing on my own keyboard?
If Jaedong plays with a logitech mouse g400 and Flash plays with a microsoft rollerball mouse. Does JD have an advantage? Should we implement a microsoft rollerball mouse only rule? What about gaming chairs/other equipment?
Or do we only allow AZERTY/QWERTZ/QWERTY/DVORAK keyboard layouts and call it a day? If Brood War was installed with a different language version (German, Spanish, French, Japanese...) the shortcuts are different. If this is such a big deal, why haven't we seen discussions about it in the past 20 years about what keyboards in which language for which race we should use? I guess it doesn't matter since we have the discussion now. Most modern keyboards allow you to change keys and even have special macro keys. What control mechanisms do you want to put in place to keep players from modifying their keyboards? That isnt even going into binding your mouse keys. "this mouse key works now as hotkey P, thus making patrol micro easier for me" I still haven't heard an answer to these questions.
This makes all these posts by the Endymion really fucking silly:
On May 30 2017 03:17 Endymion wrote: and yes people have been doing it on iccup, and i think it's scummy to do it there too. i consider it on the same level as maphacking tbh, because there it's certainly providing you with an in-game benefit that i need a third party program to gain.
Yes, because everyone in the world plays with QWERTY hotkeys and has the english version of starcraft installed, making it an even playing field. lol. (I use QWERTZ btw, most people in France use AZERTY.) So Z is for me easier to reach, I guess I am a fucking maphacker in your eyes. Even though I bought the game and installed it and used my normal keyboard. Fucking ridiculous logic. Please, I didn't know I had the entire time this tremendously unfair advantage against all the other players I ever played in my life! Damn all this time, the last decade I was a cheater without even knowing it :O. This without third party software! No win was ever deserved and every loss even more humiliating!
Is it morally ambigious to play ladder in a different language than the english setting? If people prefer different keyboards to play BW and there is no "standard", what makes it morally ambiguous to make your own keyboard?
On May 29 2017 18:52 AbouSV wrote: What about people that don't have qwerty keyboards, or some silly mouse (like with the numpad on the thumb)? At which point can you include such 'strategical considerations if you don't even know what hardware your opponent has? The only way to be fair in for everyone to play only on touchscreen, with the same resolution and size for everyone. Handy way to play.
On May 30 2017 03:17 Endymion wrote: Again, i might be ignorant because i only play bw instead of watching, so please correct me if i'm wrong here: didn't all of the major korean tournies enforce players using only the english version of starcraft to standardize hotkeys across the language versions?? otherwise they would have just used KR for convenience sake. in all of the kr pc bangs that i have been i have never once seen a kr version of broodwar installed.
I dont think there is an official korean version of Brood War yet. It will come with the Remaster though. I guess that will ruin the game too.
Tbh I thought there would be a bigger uproar about the bigger aspect ratio, because these people actually do have a legitimate point about how this affects gameplay.
On June 07 2017 21:55 Chosi wrote: So to sum it up: yes this will slightly alter the game and I can completely understand anyone who wants to preserve as much as possible. So do I, in general. But aside from this general point of view every aspect should also be view by itself. And, imho, all you could gain from NOT allowing remapping is frustration. I could not come up with a single scenario in which NOT allowing it would lead to anyone having more fun/joy. If you have such an example please share it and I might change my view.
what about people who want to play games with legacy hotkeys that don't want to have to ask people to not rebind their keys before every game? like i said, i just don't consider 1.18.x broodwar because i feel like it removes an integral part of the stress of the ui, making it easier and less fun strategically because it makes the player matter less. that's where my frustration comes from. 1.16.1 and legacy hotkeys are being pushed to the side and will likely just die off in the wake of 1.18.x without proper support and or league/tourny customization
edit sorry 404, i think you're intentionally missing the point and flaming at this point. i have reiterated myself several times about where i draw the line, and it's exactly where the game has been for the past 19ish years. i'm not interested in making the game HARDER or EASIER like you imply with your different hardware analogy, i'm just annoyed that there is a change to the game that i don't think should be there. I see what you're trying to argue to a point (i think you think that it just doesn't make an impact on balance and that i'm just being elitist, and that there are bigger fish to fry), but I think my logic still stands. Additionally, i don't really care about aspect ratio. I wish that it wasn't there, but anyone above C already knows where everything in a 2 screen radius is already for the most part so i don't consider it to materially affect skill ceiling of the game. input matters are a completely different matter for me personally, but i can see why people would be upset about aspect ratios.
On June 08 2017 01:32 Endymion wrote: i'm not interested in making the game HARDER or EASIER like you imply with your different hardware analogy, i'm just annoyed that there is a change to the game that i don't think should be there. I see what you're trying to argue to a point (i think you think that it just doesn't make an impact on balance and that i'm just being elitist, and that there are bigger fish to fry), but I think my logic still stands. .... i think you think that it just doesn't make an impact on balance and that i'm just being elitist....
Nah, I cant use that word anymore. You are a purist, even in aspects that don't make a slick of sense. Your standing logic being,"I don't want something to change. Change is bad. It is perfect now." The game might not have changed in the last 20 years. Every other hardware/OS has moved on. How do you move on with life. Change isn't necessarily a bad thing. Your position to halt change simply for the sake of halting change, doesn't hold its own ground when there are modern ways to go around that.
One major reason to not want customizeable hotkeys is to discourage these kinds of posts (link 1, link 2, link 3). I could be wrong but I've always viewed these threads as a complete waste of celluloid. It's a bunch of low level players fooling themselves into thinking they are getting better by optimizing something of very low priority and importance.
In BW a refreshing aspect of the game is that the community could never have spawned such annoying topics.
I'm probably much more harsh than most people around here, because I took a lot of time in the past to actually write really high quality content that would legitimately help other nooby players improve. So seeing that kind of thread has always pissed me off.
Rebindable keys in BW will invite these kinds of morons over and clog the nice and pristine BW forum.
What's insignificant about a large amount of energy dumping into something that won't improve player skill? Maybe it's just me but I would actually like the foreign community to not eternally suck compared to Korea.
I'm almost certain things like the Core and the comparison between KR and not-KR are two completely unrelated topics. I don't like the idea of using the Core for me either. Solution: I don't go there and practice what I wish instead. And in the end it's what everyone that could be on a competitive level with Korean is doing anyway.
If more people use things like the Core because they are not used to move around the keyboard and such use it kinda like a controller, with everything you need directly under your hand, then I'm perfectly ok with that. At least they are having interest in the same game than I, and more people means more chances to have events and such. So why not?
On June 09 2017 12:05 CecilSunkure wrote: What's insignificant about a large amount of energy dumping into something that won't improve player skill? Maybe it's just me but I would actually like the foreign community to not eternally suck compared to Korea.
First of all, too late for your second point. :-P
I mean, that's their prerogative ? That's kind of a discussion in any competitive game, what kind of settings they use, what dpi their mouse has, do they use macros etc. That's nothing to worked up about, even if you consider it a distraction to gitting gud.
On June 09 2017 01:58 CecilSunkure wrote: One major reason to not want customizeable hotkeys is to discourage these kinds of posts (link 1, link 2, link 3). I could be wrong but I've always viewed these threads as a complete waste of celluloid. It's a bunch of low level players fooling themselves into thinking they are getting better by optimizing something of very low priority and importance.
In BW a refreshing aspect of the game is that the community could never have spawned such annoying topics.
I'm probably much more harsh than most people around here, because I took a lot of time in the past to actually write really high quality content that would legitimately help other nooby players improve. So seeing that kind of thread has always pissed me off.
Rebindable keys in BW will invite these kinds of morons over and clog the nice and pristine BW forum.