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* Disclaimer * - This is solely my own opinion. Any "we's" are purely incidental and general.* Disclaimer *
In response to the following post: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?currentpage=3&topic_id=65544
Okay, I'm first of all going to pre-face this post by saying that I understand it's usually a bad idea to respond to "feedback," whether your a musician, author, commentator or anyone else producing something that might be considered to be in a "creative" field, since it is seen as being defensive and not being able to take criticism. After all, everyone has their opinion, and they are more than entitled to it. Put a 100 random people in a room and the chances of them agreeing on something are pretty much zero. I also know 100% that this is only likely to get me flamed even more or worse. Yet for some reason I felt compelled to respond here, for reasons I'll try and outline below. That being said... here I jump into the fire.
The first thing that strikes me when reading something like this, is what the motivation of the author might be in giving feedback.
Is it to provide constructive advice to help someone improve something? Certainly I don't feel that is the case here, because the tone and nature of the post is highly negative as opposed to constructive and unlikely to achieve a positive effect. And I think because that is the intention of the poster rather than the reader. The "advice" if summed up amounts to "you suck, get better."
Is it to educate the world about the lack of quality in our commentaries? Maybe. If so.. why? It's not like we are asking anyone to pay anything for them. It's not as if they are the only available avenue for watching these pro games. If someone disagree's so strongly and has such strong opinions no one is forcing them to watch? Is it because a lot of people out there do seem to enjoy them and that irks the poster for some reason?
Is it to discourage us from making these commentaries to begin with? I don't know. I again don't see what the point of that would be. It's not like were stopping anyone else from doing it. Nor are we claiming anything above and beyond what we are doing.
While I'm on this point I'm gonna call B S on the arguement about "newbies" being potentially damaged by listening to our commentaries. First of all, it's not like we're trying to teach creationism as a science in schools. We are just giving OUR OPINIONS on the game of starcraft. We've never claimed to be the final word or authority on that. People are welcome to disagree with what we have to say on the game, and there is nothing wrong with that, but that's not the same as making a vitriolic attack with the sole intention to undermine. Secondly. It's idiotic to suggest that someone's play will become WORSE by watching a commentary. At the end of the day we provide some basic analysis and our opinion, people can take that on board or not. The best way to improve is to actually PLAY starcraft, and see what works and what doesn't and to practise it. And obviously watching pro-games is a big help. Still everyone is watchig the same game as I am. If they think there is some weight in my strategic insight about what is happening then that is up to them. They MAY try and adopt it into their game playing, and if it works great, if it doesn't then they'll prolly try something different. No one is trying their hands or giving them an exam at the end of the day. I think it's disingenous and ridiculous to suggest that players can be damaged by listening to these commentaries, especially when you have no real evidence beyond opinion to back that up. I'm not going to discuss higher level gamers yet because I'll come to that later.
On to the issue of commentaries and why I do them, since I can't speak for mole and digg.
I do them because.
1. I love starcraft. 2. I enjoy doing it. 3. I feel my commentary adds some value, be it enjoyment, humor, energy, insight, whatever to the game.
I think the fact that most of my you tube videos get 2,000 - 4,000+, views suggests to me that a lot of people enjoy watching my commented vods, for WHATEVER reason, and this also motivates me to keep going. I've had a lot of comments from people who say they don't even play starcraft anymore. They just like watching cause it's fun. Personally, I feel anything that helps grow and sustain the starcraft e-sports scene is a good thing, and should be supported, whoever happens to be doing it, but obviously I might be biased in having that view point.
Now the big stuff - analysis or strategy or whatever.
I'll ask zulu directly here if he has ever tried doing a commentary, on the fly, never having watched the game first. Especially if you are one person doing it solo... here is what it involves.
1. Watching the game. 2. Thinking about the game. 3. Commenting on the play by play. 4. Anticipating what's happening and what might happen and commenting on it. 5. Trying to think of appropriate references to past games that are relevant to what's happening. 6. Throwing something funny or humerous into the mix. 7. Balancing all of the above while trying to avoid dead air.
In the context of that, it's easy to miss something, or not count the exact number of drones each player has and suss out the exact build, or predict exactly what is happening and why. I'm not saying our knowledge may not be lacking, but the knoweldge is only one part of the picture. I can guarentee you, if I watched every single game before hand, several times, I could be a lot more accurate about what I am saying, and think a lot more deeply about it and provide more depth. I think anyone could. I think watching a game once or twice or thrice. Then sitting down and pointing out with specific time indexes, whatever points you have to make, having the luxury of no other distractions to think about and infinite time to gather, compose and articulate your thoughts as you type out a post is an ENTIRELY different ballgame.
If we were trying to produce a "teaching tool" only for games then our approach would be wholly different. As it is, I at least am not. Nor have I ever claimed to.
On the issue of higher level players themselves. Maybe they won't gain as much, or enjoy our commentaries. Fine, fair enough. Because that's not what I'm trying to do anyway. I'm not trying to teach the pro's how to improve. I've already outlined above what I am trying to do. But I don't see why that grants them a lisence to look down upon or belittle us. It's not like I'm claiming i'm a better player than X or that I KNOW more about starcraft than Y.
Ultimately I come back down to purpose.
We're talking the time and effort out of our very busy lives to do something because we enjoy it, and because we feel that other people also enjoy listening to it. It's our attempt to contribute and add to to the starcraft community.
If you honestly have such a low opinion of what we are contributing, and are so confident in your own prowess, why don't you have a go at doing it yourself?
As for comparisons to tasteless or other commentators, I'm not going to get into that because it's a whole other debate entirely, and a dangerous minefield to boot.
I think it is far easier to be an armchair general and criticise others than actually putting in the effort it takes to do something constructive.
And no, for reasons I've outlined above, this blog is not the same as doing a live commentary on a game you have never seen before or know nothing about.
What is that they say about judging a man without walking 10 miles in his shoes?
I started doing commentaries 7 months ago. I've had a lot of criticism and feedback. Yet never have I had the urge to respond in the manner that I have today. Maybe because for the first time, I feel like this isn't just feedback but a personal attack/flame. Maybe I'm silly and shouldn't swallow the bait. I don't know.
The last thing I want to say on the issue of "FEEDBACK," and whether the intention is positive or negative, constructive or destructive is by the comprehensiveness or lack of the person giving the feedback. I think if you base your opinion of our work on just one game, or even two or three games, it suggests that your approaching it beforehand with your mind already made up, with the sole purpose to look to tear it down rather than add to it. I think if it was someone who had maybe even watched HALF of my vods, and then gave feedback, it was something that would be a) more helpful and b) more likely to be constructive. Because maybe something was missed in one vod that wasn't in another. Or maybe someone had an off day. WHatever. If maybe your blog was just about the analaysis of ONE vod it would be different. But a lot of grand general statements are being made, and I think generalising is always a wrong thing to do. You can't see one guy of any race and make up your mind that all the guys from that race are ugly.
I guess ultimately, this blog is just someone's rant, about why they dislike something and has no higher purpose. Just as my commentaries, are just some guys opinion on a game of starcraft, to be enjoyed or not or whatever.
Which I guess makes this reply of mine a non-sequitor, so I'm going to stop here.
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I absolutely love your commentaries. To me its entertainment, a replacement for tv.
Why did you write this? You could have done a couple commentaries for this amount of time!!!!
edit: although, since you are writing a novel this probably took you no time at all.
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gogo Klazart... you're the best of the commentators. I think you guys do a great service for the community and it's very enjoyable to listen to your stuff. Just have fun with it, be funny, and do the best job you can.
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Brililant in-depth analysis by Klazart
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klaz i must say i have held off eating dinners just waiting for your awesome commentaries to enjoy them with, love your work
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On January 24 2008 13:43 fight_or_flight wrote: I absolutely love your commentaries. To me its entertainment, a replacement for tv.
Why did you write this? You could have done a couple commentaries for this amount of time!!!!
edit: although, since you are writing a novel this probably took you no time at all.
its in response to zulu the uber troll's post
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I think your commentaries bring things to the table that outweigh any number of strategic concerns: Energy, humor, and love of the game. Your excitement in every game is contagious. Your commentaries make me see why the Koreans love their silly game so much.
Keep on the good fight, sir Klaz!
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One product can't satisfy every audience. Others may disapprove of your actions and hold you in contempt, but, as I'm sure you know, there will still be those who agree with you wholeheartedly and greatly enjoy your work.
It's the result of having an opinion. Given the scope of your commentaries, something as low as a 60% approval rating wouldn't be something to be overly frustrated about. Of course, everyone has room to improve, but at one's one pace. Laboring to fulfill the requirements of others never ends well.
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United States13896 Posts
zulu shouldn't have picked on a novelist ... keep doing what you're doing Klaz!
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This may be totally out of place, but I believe the results may be gratifying
Poll: How do you feel about Klazart commentaries (Vote): Excellent (Vote): Good (Vote): Ambivalent (Vote): Bad (Vote): Terrible
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One of the best posts I've seen in a while now. Amen ^^
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Thanks for the commentaries, Klaz! I dont know Korean so it's good to see some energy and excitement added to the game in English.
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United States20661 Posts
I'm not particularly familiar with you; I've watched a couple of your commentaries but that's it.
As for Zulu, I've got nothing against him, and most veterans are fairly friendly [with the exception of certain grudges]
So maybe you should take my comment with a grain of salt. But basically, while I wouldn't be as hardline about it as Zulu, I agree with many of the things he's said in his blogs/posts. Bly really likes his Chinese commentators. I've listened to Chinese commentators (a lot of them actually). They've got some advantages over you, which makes them better in some ways.
For example - most of them are/were competitive gamers. That gives them a strategic analytical edge. Furthermore they have access to supply numbers and suchlike, which is always helpful. They're also able to control where the screen points to, etc etc. And perhaps most importantly, since it's a job of sorts, they're able to dedicate all their work hours to it.
However, I would say this: I really love your energy. And I suppose your accent is nice. But the vitality you bring to the commentaries is exceptional. Sometimes those Chinese commentators sound uninspired and dull, no matter how sharp their substance is. You have a definite edge in that area - love of the game such as you display is rare; you can learn strategy but learning passion is more difficult.
If you were to play more, it would be a great boon to both yourself, your commentaries, and your fanbase in general. I'm not saying you need to become some A+ ICC or join ToT or anything, but if you had increased gamesense it would both prevent attacks such as those of Bly while also bettering the quality of your analysis.
So, all in all - I agree with Bly's points, but think that you are able to overcome those challenges. Best of luck to you. Klaz fighting~!
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Klaz, let me tell you, it was you that brought me into Starcraft, it was you that brought me to Teamliquid. I started by looking through your commentaries and hunting down every last one I could find. Your VODs are wonderful.
I'm sure there are many like me.
I just wanted to tell you that.
You are amazing.
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On January 24 2008 14:26 Last Romantic wrote: I'm not particularly familiar with you; I've watched a couple of your commentaries but that's it.
As for Zulu, I've got nothing against him, and most veterans are fairly friendly [with the exception of certain grudges]
So maybe you should take my comment with a grain of salt. But basically, while I wouldn't be as hardline about it as Zulu, I agree with many of the things he's said in his blogs/posts. Bly really likes his Chinese commentators. I've listened to Chinese commentators (a lot of them actually). They've got some advantages over you, which makes them better in some ways.
For example - most of them are/were competitive gamers. That gives them a strategic analytical edge. Furthermore they have access to supply numbers and suchlike, which is always helpful. They're also able to control where the screen points to, etc etc. And perhaps most importantly, since it's a job of sorts, they're able to dedicate all their work hours to it.
However, I would say this: I really love your energy. And I suppose your accent is nice. But the vitality you bring to the commentaries is exceptional. Sometimes those Chinese commentators sound uninspired and dull, no matter how sharp their substance is. You have a definite edge in that area - love of the game such as you display is rare; you can learn strategy but learning passion is more difficult.
If you were to play more, it would be a great boon to both yourself, your commentaries, and your fanbase in general. I'm not saying you need to become some A+ ICC or join ToT or anything, but if you had increased gamesense it would both prevent attacks such as those of Bly while also bettering the quality of your analysis.
So, all in all - I agree with Bly's points, but think that you are able to overcome those challenges. Best of luck to you. Klaz fighting~!
I'm not trying to be defensive, but this is my honest opinion
the problem is I really don't feel that zulu's post was well intentioned in any interpretation of the term. I think it was meant as an attack, a very personal and base one at that. As i've said. Over the last 7 months, I've had a lot of critique and feedback, RARELY does it feel like a flame or a troll.
This one does.
As for zulu's strategic insights. I stick with the opinion, that WERE we to watch these games before hand once or even twice before doing our commentaries, we would not miss very much of what he is talkin about. Hindsight is always 20/20. I honestly don't think he has said anything unique or deeply insightful in his post that most people wouldn't see watching the games a couple of times, (including us) IF we had the time to sit down and think about them without the other distractions of doing a full live commentary.
Yes it is different being able to work full time at something as opposed to a hobby.
As for me playing more. I can't, my RSI prevents it. Even though I'd love to.
Lastly. I just want to say that I appreciate your comments, last romantic, and your post is the perfect example of constructive criticism/feedback as opposed to destructive criticism/flaming/trolling even though I may not agree with all of your points.
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joohyunee
Korea (South)1087 Posts
I appreciate all the contribution you're giving to the BW community very much. What I don't understand is why everyone likes Tasteless when he only has slightly more depth in game analysis (which is something I think everyone agrees you can work on and make your commentaries SO much better). When I watch the Vods I actually understand what the commentators are talking about, and the only reason why is because there are 3 commentators: 1 who gets all excited and goes crazy when battles happen. 2 [usually Themarine] who sees the player's build and predicts (with very high percentage) what the player's gonna do and the 3rd... I really don't know... I can't really tell.
ANYWAY what I mean to say is that take the criticism as a grain of salt, and maybe it would be good to look over the Vod once so you get an idea of what the build orders are and how they help the player win/make the player lose (without giving it away ofc) so that you can do some analysis while building up the energy into the battles where things really get exciting and stuff.
all in all, you are doing an amazing job, and you are really really awesome for doing everyone who can't understand korean like me a HUGE favor. Mad props to you Klaz.
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Canada9720 Posts
good post, klaz. zulu's blogs are fairly unnecessary, and the bandwagoning there from a certain group of people is pretty much pretention.
if they really cared about commentaries (i say this half-heartedly, since a know that a few other guysd are planning on doing their own shortly as well) they'd make their own, rather than sit and naysay
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I agree with Klazart 100%. My beef with Zulu is that he seems to be attacking Digg/Mole/Klaz for no apparent reason. The commentaries aren't always correct and watching these VODs won't teach you fundamentals. However, unless i'm missing something, please direct me to where any of those three have said that they are trying educate other players or do anything other than entertain with their opinions? If you can show me this I will apologize, but i'm sure that the commentaries are because people enjoy them and that they like to do them.
Zulu, you say that you watch Chinese commentaries. If you do, than why don't you watch those, enjoy those and leave the people who like these ones alone? What do you intend to accomplish? Make Klazart/Digg/Mole reach a certain rank on iCCup (You seem to be obsessed with iCCup rankings ;p) before they can commentate? Maybe they should have to pass your personal inspection before being released?
I think you need to calm down and really ask yourself what your trying to do. It seems to me that you would be happy if these three just quit.
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Even if you can't play, I think there might be other ways to help with your game sense. While I'm not sure if this would work, I saw Karma/Seraphim posted a blog just now: http://teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=65580
Perhaps you could do something similar? Maybe you could try posting your analysis of a game after your first watching and see what others have to say. Or maybe just rewatch your commentaries and see when your analysis is wrong and maybe why you go wrong. I suppose this is like gamers watching their replays and seeing what's wrong. Of course, maybe you already do this and my random tips are all to waste :p.
I enjoy the commentaries that the three of you post. It's entertaining to watch.
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Russian Federation12 Posts
On January 24 2008 14:46 joohyunee wrote: I appreciate all the contribution you're giving to the BW community very much. What I don't understand is why everyone likes Tasteless when he only has slightly more depth in game analysis (which is something I think everyone agrees you can work on and make your commentaries SO much better). When I watch the Vods I actually understand what the commentators are talking about, and the only reason why is because there are 3 commentators: 1 who gets all excited and goes crazy when battles happen. 2 [usually Themarine] who sees the player's build and predicts (with very high percentage) what the player's gonna do and the 3rd... I really don't know... I can't really tell.
ANYWAY what I mean to say is that take the criticism as a grain of salt, and maybe it would be good to look over the Vod once so you get an idea of what the build orders are and how they help the player win/make the player lose (without giving it away ofc) so that you can do some analysis while building up the energy into the battles where things really get exciting and stuff.
all in all, you are doing an amazing job, and you are really really awesome for doing everyone who can't understand korean like me a HUGE favor. Mad props to you Klaz.
The problem with watching the game already is, yes you get a lot of analysis and you can predict everything that happens and never have any mildly incorrect statements, but it's not as natural. When you've already watched the game and know he's going to go gundam vs zerg, do you still pretend that you're not sure what he's going to build even though you already saw the game? Or do you say "In this game he will go for a 3 fac push vs zerg"? It seems more natural commentating on the game as it's being played and the excitement as it's happening.
Anyway, there was no reason for zulu (Is he even a top player as he presents himself to be?) to bash something that's so artistic in the making without any purpose to better it. It's no secret Klaz's commentaries are amazing. It was a sad day when he wasn't around to make these commentaries and I personally feel anyone that publicly tries to force him off these fantastic commentaries as opposed to constructively trying to improve them through feedback deserves a ban here. My reasoning is Klaz has contributed so much to our SC community here, just as Tasteless has, and zulu has contributed.. well, nothing.
-D|Q-}FiZZon{
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On January 24 2008 14:56 CTStalker wrote: good post, klaz. zulu's blogs are fairly unnecessary, and the bandwagoning there from a certain group of people is pretty much pretention.
if they really cared about commentaries (i say this half-heartedly, since a know that a few other guysd are planning on doing their own shortly as well) they'd make their own, rather than sit and naysay
lol. nice italics
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Don't respond to them haters out there. I think your commentary vids are great and you're a great value to the starcraft community. You got me into watching english commentary vids. I check youtube almost everyday now to see if you got some new commentaries out.
Keep 'em coming!
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On January 24 2008 14:26 Last Romantic wrote: I'm not particularly familiar with you; I've watched a couple of your commentaries but that's it.
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nice post by last romantic ^
to let you know another part of your fanbase (and i'm sure i'm not the only one) - i played back around 1.07/1.08, quit for years, then just got back into it a couple months ago as a casual player. zulu is definitely right with most of his points...and i don't particularly learn much in the way of strats from your commentaries, but at the very least, they are helpful in making the scene accessible again. plus korean vods annoy the hell out of me (there's no foreign appeal at all, unlike music or a film), so it's great hearing casual convo in english. your energy is also great.
If you honestly have such a low opinion of what we are contributing, and are so confident in your own prowess, why don't you have a go at doing it yourself?
the point is that you did make the decision to make (a lot) of commentaries, and that carries some responsibility. i remember some of diggity's early commentaries where he would spend the first five minutes ranking his favorite players - useless, but completely harmless. as the focus of the commentaries have shifted much more towards strategy, they should communicate a level of strategic competency along with all the other aspects of broadcasting. some people are just picky, but i personally could care less if you are calling a zerg drop when it's probably not coming, the entertainment value makes it worth watching.
so reiterating some of the posts above, if you guys are able to play more, it would definitely help the quality of your commentaries, and also deflect some criticism.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I don't understand where you are getting this hostility from Klaz.
Zulu clearly states at the beginning of his entry that
The gist of which is "My position on your commentaries is this, I commend you guys for taking the time and effort to make English commentaries and doing something for the community, however as commentators you guys do not provide much insight and are plain wrong most of the time. What I'm worried about is if someone tried to learn from watching you guys provide insight that person will probably learn some pretty damaging stuff to his fundamentals. But as long as the audience know to take what you guys say with a grain of salt it's okay."
There is nothing hostile about this. He then proceeded to provide a list of the errors you guys had made in 2 casts - there was a substantial amount and in a community Teamliquid which is populated by elitists it's quite easy to see why members would be irritated by this. If that is the impression from two casts then we think "oh shit theres hundreds of these"
Im going to reiterate what other members have said. I think you diggity and moletrap all have great potential but rather than developing yourselves through study and analysis of builds and strategy your approach appears to be mass gaming with little correction. Heres a great example from someone who is a GREAT commentator looking for people's advice.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=65576
Teamliquid as a community has always respected effort put in by its members - thats how the site has survived and prospered. The issue is that after hundreds of games we don't see what we would expect which is notable improvement. I understand your position of attracting those who wouldn't normally be interested but it is of concern that alot of the material being presented is infact flawed.
I don't learn alot from your commentaries and can point out your flaws but i would love to see the day when i can watch a triple commentary etc and be entertained even if i know what's going on - i think thats the sentiment that your "critics" share.
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Kennigt - Pre-facing a post with "I commend you ... but..." does not change the tone and attitude of the post itself.
As for the list of errors, as has been already pointed out... many are paradoxical.
One some occasions he complains about missing things that are "obvious" on others when Diggity does point out things he blames him for "pointing out the obvious." That's what sets the alarm bells ringing for me. He's basically looking for anything, and putting the worst possible spin on it. Also, even if it is a BAD vod, that doesn't make it right to generalise and judge all of a caster's work based on it. As has been pointed it, it would be like judging savior on one bad game.
Im going to reiterate what other members have said. I think you diggity and moletrap all have great potential but rather than developing yourselves through study and analysis of builds and strategy your approach appears to be mass gaming with little correction.
Firstly you are making an "assumption" about our strategy. Secondly I honestly don't have the time to do more than I do. Thirdly, and I don't mean this bit defensively, how many of our individual vods have you seen that you can make a comment about our general strategy or attitude? Would I be correct in assuming that you saw one vod and based on that decided, hey this is a new vod, it's not that great, the've done a lot of vods, therefore this is the sum total, so it's all crap. I do feel that commenting on a particular vod is one thing. But making GENERAL inferences on that alone while tempting and while a lot of people do it, isn't correct on any level.
Also, eletism in any community is never in my view something to be proud of or to foster. Not if you want to grow starcraft beyond the current fragmentry following that exists out of korea.
Lastly, I'll repeat again. Just because something is missed during the commentary doesn't mean we can't grasp it. Knowledge or lack of it is only a small part of the picture. As an example look at some of the games where there is a detailed post-game analysis. I think you'll find we cover strategy in a lot more depth there. And htat again is without rewatching the game or anything. It really is wholly different when you have time to sit afterwards and thinkback and focus on strategy entirely.
Still I appreciate your concerns, and we do try to make an improvement always. Playing more games is not an option for me in the future. As for studying, I have enough of that to do for my novel, without having time for starcraft. Besides, there are already pleanty of ppl out there who focus on "strategy" alone.
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hm, first i had a real long post standing here that took me over 3 hours to write down about why people discredit others for doing commentaries and enjoying themselves, hating them for not having enough "ingame sense" and hating it cuz they dont give enough background informations why someone is doing this or that, i mean...u see the vod...u can see whats happening, that english commentary is just a bonus for people who wants to...but then i realised that this community on tl.net is pretty much fucked up itself that it probably doesnt matter.
cheers from someone who wouldnt visit this page at all if there wouldnt be strafes blogs and some korean proleague infos.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On January 24 2008 16:11 Klaz wrote:Kennigt - Pre-facing a post with "I commend you ... but..." does not change the tone and attitude of the post itself. As for the list of errors, as has been already pointed out... many are paradoxical. One some occasions he complains about missing things that are "obvious" on others when Diggity does point out things he blames him for "pointing out the obvious." That's what sets the alarm bells ringing for me. He's basically looking for anything, and putting the worst possible spin on it. Also, even if it is a BAD vod, that doesn't make it right to generalise and judge all of a caster's work based on it. As has been pointed it, it would be like judging savior on one bad game. Show nested quote +Im going to reiterate what other members have said. I think you diggity and moletrap all have great potential but rather than developing yourselves through study and analysis of builds and strategy your approach appears to be mass gaming with little correction. Firstly you are making an "assumption" about our strategy. Secondly I honestly don't have the time to do more than I do. Thirdly, and I don't mean this bit defensively, how many of our individual vods have you seen that you can make a comment about our general strategy or attitude? Would I be correct in assuming that you saw one vod and based on that decided, hey this is a new vod, it's not that great, the've done a lot of vods, therefore this is the sum total, so it's all crap. I do feel that commenting on a particular vod is one thing. But making GENERAL inferences on that alone while tempting and while a lot of people do it, isn't correct on any level. Also, eletism in any community is never in my view something to be proud of or to foster. Not if you want to grow starcraft beyond the current fragmentry following that exists out of korea. Lastly, I'll repeat again. Just because something is missed during the commentary doesn't mean we can't grasp it. Knowledge or lack of it is only a small part of the picture. As an example look at some of the games where there is a detailed post-game analysis. I think you'll find we cover strategy in a lot more depth there. And htat again is without rewatching the game or anything. It really is wholly different when you have time to sit afterwards and thinkback and focus on strategy entirely. Still I appreciate your concerns, and we do try to make an improvement always. Playing more games is not an option for me in the future. As for studying, I have enough of that to do for my novel, without having time for starcraft. Besides, there are already pleanty of ppl out there who focus on "strategy" alone.
One some occasions he complains about missing things that are "obvious" on others when Diggity does point out things he blames him for "pointing out the obvious." That's what sets the alarm bells ringing for me.
These are notable differences. These obvious things that a big deal were made out of were "early lings" (12 pool) when in fact it was a counter to the 8 rax which was obvious. Thats just the example i have right now cause i saw it most recently. 70% of the time a pro match is just a standard build. 12 hatch 11 pool...10/12 rax...nothing special yet more is made out of them through adjectives that are inappropriate at the time. It's something i and others who i discussed it (i thought i was going nuts for a while and had to seek confirmation) have noted regulary in all 3 commentators work.
Firstly you are making an "assumption" about our strategy.
Would I be correct in assuming that you saw one vod and based on that decided, hey this is a new vod, it's not that great, the've done a lot of vods, therefore this is the sum total, so it's all crap. errr......ok ill play along with this double standard. I watched about 15-20 of your commentaries before you took your break and about 6 or so more since you've been back. Diggity/Moletrap ive watched probably 12-15 or so. Thats a pretty decent sample size considering that im not gaining much.
This community prides itself on being at the top of its game and most of the user base holds itself to that standard. I never said elitism was good or bad - but that is the nature of this beast.
You've all stated that you dont have enough time to fit in starcraft to your schedules but regularly release these vods. If it were me i'd be making the choice between cutting off my commentaries for a month or so and using that time (not necessarily playing) but asking and learning from others and then applying that to later commentaries - or continue the way you are.
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On January 24 2008 16:42 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +Would I be correct in assuming that you saw one vod and based on that decided, hey this is a new vod, it's not that great, the've done a lot of vods, therefore this is the sum total, so it's all crap. errr......ok ill play along with this double standard. I watched about 15-20 of your commentaries before you took your break and about 6 or so more since you've been back. Diggity/Moletrap ive watched probably 12-15 or so. Thats a pretty decent sample size considering that im not gaining much. This community prides itself on being at the top of its game and most of the user base holds itself to that standard. I never said elitism was good or bad - but that is the nature of this beast. You've all stated that you dont have enough time to fit in starcraft to your schedules but regularly release these vods. If it were me i'd be making the choice between cutting off my commentaries for a month or so and using that time (not necessarily playing) but asking and learning from others and then applying that to later commentaries - or continue the way you are.
Hey, thanks for the post.
Good call on the double standard. My bad. I guess it's a decentish sample to be fair.
I feel that the whole community pride/high standard stuff is over played a bit. As to standards, I submit that it is purely subjective. Not that I'm saying there isn't room for improvement. But ultimately it's down to opinions. One person's Shakespeare is another's Mills and Boon.
Lastly. Your suggestion is a nice thought. But I enjoy doing the commentaries, and while there are people out there who want to listen to them, that's what I'd rather focus my time on. I'll leave the "teaching vods" for those who have that inclination.
In the end, I probably would have been better off ignoring zulu's post entirely, but we all need to vent from time to time.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 24 2008 13:21 Klaz wrote: The first thing that strikes me when reading something like this, is what the motivation of the author might be in giving feedback.
If I were you I would pay attention to the part of zulu's blog that states Diggity challenged his claim that he had found 'like 100 things wrong' with your jaedong/bisu commentary. So zulu did so, and prefaced it with assurance that he appreciates the effort that goes into the commentaries.
Is it to provide constructive advice to help someone improve something? Certainly I don't feel that is the case here, because the tone and nature of the post is highly negative as opposed to constructive and unlikely to achieve a positive effect. And I think because that is the intention of the poster rather than the reader. The "advice" if summed up amounts to "you suck, get better."
Zulu is brash in his approach, but I agreed with nearly all of his comments. Let's get that out of the way.
Is it to educate the world about the lack of quality in our commentaries? Maybe. If so.. why? It's not like we are asking anyone to pay anything for them. It's not as if they are the only available avenue for watching these pro games. If someone disagree's so strongly and has such strong opinions no one is forcing them to watch? Is it because a lot of people out there do seem to enjoy them and that irks the poster for some reason?
Again, Diggity asked zulu to make a list, so zulu made a list. Yes, its alarming that he has such an excess of time on his hands, but no, he didn't make the list just to spite you.
Is it to discourage us from making these commentaries to begin with? I don't know. I again don't see what the point of that would be. It's not like were stopping anyone else from doing it. Nor are we claiming anything above and beyond what we are doing.
No. It was to illustrate the simple point that you, Diggity, and moletrap, don't know the game at a very advanced level. That's fine, not everyone has been around since 1998 and played tens of thousands of games. Again, I'll stress that the effort is appreciated and that zulu acted on Diggity's response.
While I'm on this point I'm gonna call B S on the arguement about "newbies" being potentially damaged by listening to our commentaries. First of all, it's not like we're trying to teach creationism as a science in schools. We are just giving OUR OPINIONS on the game of starcraft. We've never claimed to be the final word or authority on that. People are welcome to disagree with what we have to say on the game, and there is nothing wrong with that, but that's not the same as making a vitriolic attack with the sole intention to undermine. Secondly. It's idiotic to suggest that someone's play will become WORSE by watching a commentary. At the end of the day we provide some basic analysis and our opinion, people can take that on board or not. The best way to improve is to actually PLAY starcraft, and see what works and what doesn't and to practise it. And obviously watching pro-games is a big help. Still everyone is watchig the same game as I am. If they think there is some weight in my strategic insight about what is happening then that is up to them. They MAY try and adopt it into their game playing, and if it works great, if it doesn't then they'll prolly try something different. No one is trying their hands or giving them an exam at the end of the day. I think it's disingenous and ridiculous to suggest that players can be damaged by listening to these commentaries, especially when you have no real evidence beyond opinion to back that up. I'm not going to discuss higher level gamers yet because I'll come to that later.
This part I agree with you on. The idea of potentially damaging newbies is really kind of stupid.
I think the fact that most of my you tube videos get 2,000 - 4,000+, views suggests to me that a lot of people enjoy watching my commented vods, for WHATEVER reason, and this also motivates me to keep going. I've had a lot of comments from people who say they don't even play starcraft anymore. They just like watching cause it's fun. Personally, I feel anything that helps grow and sustain the starcraft e-sports scene is a good thing, and should be supported, whoever happens to be doing it, but obviously I might be biased in having that view point.
Zulu isn't suggesting you stop, he's said repeated times that despite your somewhat mundane knowledge of the game, he appreciates what you do.
Now the big stuff - analysis or strategy or whatever.
I'll ask zulu directly here if he has ever tried doing a commentary, on the fly, never having watched the game first. Especially if you are one person doing it solo... here is what it involves.
1. Watching the game. 2. Thinking about the game. 3. Commenting on the play by play. 4. Anticipating what's happening and what might happen and commenting on it. 5. Trying to think of appropriate references to past games that are relevant to what's happening. 6. Throwing something funny or humerous into the mix. 7. Balancing all of the above while trying to avoid dead air.
In the context of that, it's easy to miss something, or not count the exact number of drones each player has and suss out the exact build, or predict exactly what is happening and why. I'm not saying our knowledge may not be lacking, but the knoweldge is only one part of the picture. I can guarentee you, if I watched every single game before hand, several times, I could be a lot more accurate about what I am saying, and think a lot more deeply about it and provide more depth. I think anyone could. I think watching a game once or twice or thrice. Then sitting down and pointing out with specific time indexes, whatever points you have to make, having the luxury of no other distractions to think about and infinite time to gather, compose and articulate your thoughts as you type out a post is an ENTIRELY different ballgame.
I've commentated live games before, and I've never had trouble with any of this. If you miss something in a game of StarCraft, especially key build order signs within the first ten minutes, its like a 95% chance that you missed it because you are lacking in some area of your game knowledge which in turn doesn't allow you to see things coming. Calling a game of StarCraft isn't as hectic as you're making it seem here.
On the issue of higher level players themselves. Maybe they won't gain as much, or enjoy our commentaries. Fine, fair enough. Because that's not what I'm trying to do anyway. I'm not trying to teach the pro's how to improve. I've already outlined above what I am trying to do. But I don't see why that grants them a lisence to look down upon or belittle us. It's not like I'm claiming i'm a better player than X or that I KNOW more about starcraft than Y.
I know a fucking lot about this game, because I've been playing and watching it for many years. Personally, I can't sit through one of your commentaries because you say so many things that are incorrect, or stress the importance of something that doesn't matter, or completely miss a vital point to the game. I don't enjoy or gain anything from your commentaries whatsoever.
If reading that upset you, you need to re-evaluate your role at this site and the audience you are presenting your commentaries to. At TL, we're used to watching translated Korean commentary, or listening to Day[9] or Tasteless or Chill or Nony or any other of the multitude of intelligent, skilled players that have made commentaries. We honestly want, and oftentimes expect, everything to be at that level of quality. Of course the effort is appreciated, but if you say things in a commentary that are flat-out wrong, the members of a professional starcraft community will be the first ones to point it out. You should know that. You shouldn't take it personally. If you truly just love doing it, you should be able to read zulu's feedback without thinking he's out to get you. If you truly love StarCraft, you should be willing to accept guidance where your present knowledge is failing.
Ultimately I come back down to purpose.
We're talking the time and effort out of our very busy lives to do something because we enjoy it, and because we feel that other people also enjoy listening to it. It's our attempt to contribute and add to to the starcraft community.
If you honestly have such a low opinion of what we are contributing, and are so confident in your own prowess, why don't you have a go at doing it yourself?
I knew this would surface somewhere in your post. Do you not realize how petty that is? Zulu has no obligation to make his own commentary before critiquing yours. If someone who has done commentaries before came in here and made the exact criticisms zulu made, would you raise a stink and say, "Well, yours suck too."?
As for comparisons to tasteless or other commentators, I'm not going to get into that because it's a whole other debate entirely, and a dangerous minefield to boot.
I think it is far easier to be an armchair general and criticise others than actually putting in the effort it takes to do something constructive.
And no, for reasons I've outlined above, this blog is not the same as doing a live commentary on a game you have never seen before or know nothing about.
What is that they say about judging a man without walking 10 miles in his shoes?
I started doing commentaries 7 months ago. I've had a lot of criticism and feedback. Yet never have I had the urge to respond in the manner that I have today. Maybe because for the first time, I feel like this isn't just feedback but a personal attack/flame. Maybe I'm silly and shouldn't swallow the bait. I don't know.
Again, you're sitting here talking about how Zulu shouldn't make such harsh judgements because you're "only doing it for the community", and yet you're taking a shit right back on Zulu? Doing commentaries isn't difficult. It's a lot of work, but calling a game of StarCraft is not difficult if you have a solidly advanced knowledge base. The reason better commentators don't have to comment on unimportant things to fill airspace is they notice things that you don't, and such things are often much more interesting points of discussion.
And if you aren't clear on it by now, zulu's list is not a personal attack on you.
The last thing I want to say on the issue of "FEEDBACK," and whether the intention is positive or negative, constructive or destructive is by the comprehensiveness or lack of the person giving the feedback. I think if you base your opinion of our work on just one game, or even two or three games, it suggests that your approaching it beforehand with your mind already made up, with the sole purpose to look to tear it down rather than add to it. I think if it was someone who had maybe even watched HALF of my vods, and then gave feedback, it was something that would be a) more helpful and b) more likely to be constructive. Because maybe something was missed in one vod that wasn't in another. Or maybe someone had an off day. WHatever. If maybe your blog was just about the analaysis of ONE vod it would be different. But a lot of grand general statements are being made, and I think generalising is always a wrong thing to do. You can't see one guy of any race and make up your mind that all the guys from that race are ugly.
Don't try to say that Zulu just hasn't watched enough of your commentaries. I've watched somewhere around 15 of your commentaries, and none of them were particularily better than any of the others. You can be displeased with the way Zulu's criticism was presented, but don't try to pretend that it misrepresents your average commentary.
I guess ultimately, this blog is just someone's rant, about why they dislike something and has no higher purpose. Just as my commentaries, are just some guys opinion on a game of starcraft, to be enjoyed or not or whatever. Which I guess makes this reply of mine a non-sequitor, so I'm going to stop here.
If you had responded with just this paragraph in the first place, none of this would have been necessary. This last paragraph is exactly the stance you should have on criticism directed toward your commentaries. Unfortunately, all the garbage above it cheapens the effect.
The bottom line is that if you're willing to put yourself out there for review, which you are doing every time you release a commentary, you should be able to handle praise and criticism in all forms. The most common basis for evaluation in english commentaries is the commentator's ability to call the game accurately. Maybe zulu's post was unnecessary, but this long-winded reply of yours certainly is. Lots of people disagree with the Power Rank every month, but I'm not going to make a huge post telling them to leave me alone because writing the Power Rank is really hard. I discuss things with the people who disagree with the ranking based on my knowledge of StarCraft, not my pride. You should do the same.
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On January 24 2008 15:49 Kennigit wrote: The issue is that after hundreds of games we don't see what we would expect which is notable improvement. Why is he expected to improve his strategical knowledge? Has he ever advertised his commentaries as a strategical learning tool? No. Is he being paid to do his commentaries? No. Has he ever claimed to represent the efforts of TL.net? No. This attitude of entitlement among certain members of TL appears very snobby to me (not directed at you).
Klaz has pointed out multiple times that certain issues (as well as time constraints) prevent him from being able to game often enough to advance his strategical understanding of Starcraft to a whole different level. That's like asking a 5"4 guy, "why can't you just grow a few inches so you can dunk and improve your game in basketball".
On January 24 2008 15:49 Kennigit wrote:I understand your position of attracting those who wouldn't normally be interested but it is of concern that alot of the material being presented is infact flawed. It is of concern to WHO exactly? Those who understand the game at a higher level than the commentators can just pick out the mistakes themselves. It's not like they're giving out that much strategical advice during the games. So these people can either: listen to the commentaries for entertainment value, for another person's take on the same game, or just listen to the original Korean games and pretend these don't exist.
Those who are at a lower level of SC understanding are more likely to become attracted to the game, and seek out other forms of various online strategical resources if they truly wish to improve. There is absolutely no way that listening commentaries can actually be detrimental to their game, because there honestly just isn't that much advice being given out, when you compare them to educational videos such as those by Combat, Chill, or Nony for example.
Many of Zulu's criticisms are also really pulling at straws and were generally either: "oh, he got too excited at this when it was obvious", "oh, he missed that detail when he shouldn't have" or "oh, he doesn't have firm evidence to suggest this, so he shouldn't even be speculating or making predictions". Some them are even criticizing their discussion or general SC-related discussion like this one:
- 13:00, "Diggity do you think Jaedong is as on top of his game as any zerg can be right now?" wtf kind of a question is that? What could you have said? No, I think yarnc would be doing better? WTF kind of criticism is that?
On January 24 2008 15:49 Kennigit wrote:I don't learn alot from your commentaries and can point out your flaws but i would love to see the day when i can watch a triple commentary etc and be entertained even if i know what's going on - i think thats the sentiment that your "critics" share. I'll just say that even people who fully understand what's going and realize the inaccuracies or exaggerations can still be entertained by the commentary, such as myself. I enjoy the enthusiasm and also listening to someone else's take on the same game as I'm watching.
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Russian Federation12 Posts
On January 24 2008 17:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote + I think the fact that most of my you tube videos get 2,000 - 4,000+, views suggests to me that a lot of people enjoy watching my commented vods, for WHATEVER reason, and this also motivates me to keep going. I've had a lot of comments from people who say they don't even play starcraft anymore. They just like watching cause it's fun. Personally, I feel anything that helps grow and sustain the starcraft e-sports scene is a good thing, and should be supported, whoever happens to be doing it, but obviously I might be biased in having that view point.
Zulu isn't suggesting you stop, he's said repeated times that despite your somewhat mundane knowledge of the game, he appreciates what you do.
Now here's where you missed the whole argument and your basis by not reading everything. If it was just this and if this is how he presented it, it wouldn't have been as big of a deal. His mission was more towards the public degradation route, and here's where it starts.
On January 21 2008 14:27 zulu_nation8 wrote: I'm being nice, from what you and diggity come off as on Teamliquid I think you guys should stop doing commentaries but I fully understand your passion and respect the energy and work you guys have put in, but I doubt anyone is learning from them.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=2&topic_id=65420 This is where it all starts. This is where he is making a stand. Not to put too much emphasis on this since it's only 1 person's opinion, Diggity asks hims to give some constructional analysis, in which he makes an entire inflammatory blog, condescending on all the points he makes. It's not as bad if you look at it generally and say "He's pointing out flaws" but reading the unnecessary, condescending attacks is something you have to actually sift through them to get the picture.
Typically you could say it was just a statement to Diggity/moletrap, but then comes:
English Commentaries #2 zulu_nation8, January 23
After going through the triple commentary I realized that Klazart is probably the worst offender of all so I decided to choose a Diggity only commentary and also one of my favorite games of the past year, OSL Final 4 Jaedong v Upmagic set 2 on Blue Storm.
It's a personal attack in my eyes. Anyways, i'm gonna stop reading on. Klaz's commentaries shouldn't be lumped with Diggity/moletrap's imho, and making a bad judgement on 1 triple commentary is just flat out stupid.
-D|Q-}FiZZon{
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Hey here comes some nobody to tell me how wrong I am!
The points I made were that Klazart shouldn't be reacting the way he is to zulu's post, and that zulu's claim that these commentators lack game knowledge isn't born of some ludicrous hated toward them. In Klazart's case, zulu is completely right in his statement, and in any case, Klazart shouldn't have made a post like this.
That last thing you quoted was an admittance that it may not be fair to judge Diggity by the number of errors Klazart made in the Jaedong/Bisu game, and so he chose a game that only Diggity commentated. This whole thing started with zulu and Diggity to begin with. You don't really know zulu, but he is direct and to the point in every single thing he says. That's just how he is. Again, it shouldn't matter this much.
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Russian Federation12 Posts
On January 24 2008 17:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Hey here comes some nobody to tell me how wrong I am!
Yes, you were wrong. Being sarcastic doesn't change that.
The points I made were that Klazart shouldn't be reacting the way he is to zulu's post, and that zulu's claim that these commentators lack game knowledge isn't born of some ludicrous hated toward them. In Klazart's case, zulu is completely right in his statement, and in any case, Klazart shouldn't have made a post like this.
That last thing you quoted was an admittance that it may not be fair to judge Diggity by the number of errors Klazart made in the Jaedong/Bisu game, and so he chose a game that only Diggity commentated. You don't really know zulu, but he is direct and to the point in every single thing he says. That's just how he is. Again, it shouldn't matter this much.
Saying they lack knowledge and should improve is one thing. Telling them, "You suck and i'm not trying to be mean, but you should quit right now. The impact you're having on the community is detrimental." is another. He took the second route.
-D|Q-}FiZZon{
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Valhalla18444 Posts
I already said that Zulu's comments were brash and maybe unnecessary. Whether Klazart liked Zulu's tone has so little to do with what I posted that I'm just shaking my head as you try to tell me what a monster Zulu is.
Also this is unrelated but we don't sign our posts here.
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On January 24 2008 17:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: The points I made were that Klazart shouldn't be reacting the way he is to zulu's post, and that zulu's claim that these commentators lack game knowledge isn't born of some ludicrous hated toward them. In Klazart's case, zulu is completely right in his statement, and in any case, Klazart shouldn't have made a post like this.
Can you not tell how insulted Klazart and the other commentators feel after reading Zulu's comments. If I spent my spare time making all these commentaries and sharing them to benefit the community, only to be personally attacked and picked apart in a derogatory and sarcastic manner, I would be pissed as hell too. Just read all of it closely. Zulu is correct in many of his points, but that's not the issue at stake here. It's the ugly tone and underlying intentions that are the problem. Being "direct" is entirely different from making insulting comments and posts that are just oozing with smug sarcasm. Klazart has every right to make a post defending himself.
On January 21 2008 14:27 zulu_nation8 wrote: I'm being nice, from what you and diggity come off as on Teamliquid I think you guys should stop doing commentaries but I fully understand your passion and respect the energy and work you guys have put in, but I doubt anyone is learning from them.
On January 21 2008 23:58 zulu_nation8 wrote: I immediately dug up you + diggity + klazart's triple commentary on the bisu vs jaedong blue storm game. I wanted to pick a good example to see if I was wrong to flame you guys or not. ... as commentators you guys do not provide much insight and are plain wrong most of the time.
On January 23 2008 18:18 zulu_nation8 wrote: After going through the triple commentary I realized that Klazart is probably the worst offender of all This pretty much exposes his true intentions behind his commentary. He even openly states that he's flaming them. It doesn't matter if he slips in one or two sentences showing the he's "okay" with them or "respects them". He wouldn't be writing in that tone if he wanted to show respect. It pretty much amounts to saying "No offense, but fuck you".
On January 21 2008 23:58 zulu_nation8 wrote: What I'm worried about is if someone tried to learn from watching you guys provide insight that person will probably learn some pretty damaging stuff to his fundamentals.
That's complete and utter bullshit. Very few of Zulu's "100 criticisms" are fundamentals to players that are relatively new to SC, but are rather just minor points that they wouldn't understand even if explained to them.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
....Right, and my main point is that despite how this shit is presented, Klazart shouldn't try to dismiss the criticisms themselves based on the fact that Zulu doesn't make commentaries, or based on the difficulty of making commentaries. Despite how Zulu worded everything, almost all of his specific comments are valid and true.
In a similar vein, the rest of you shouldn't immediately ignore that point just because I personally don't think Zulu's off-color remarks were as bad as some of you are making them out to be.
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On January 24 2008 17:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Hey here comes some nobody to tell me how wrong I am
I don't want to debate endlessly on the commentary stuff so I've stopped responding in that regard. Since I think anything further by me on the topic is merely repitition. I've made my points and stance as clearly and coherently as I can.
However...
No offence but you have no right to call anyone a nobody. Who exactly are you that gives you that right exactly? Even if you were the president of the U.S. This kind of dismissal of other people's opinion as if they are beneath you somehow is not good. It shocks and sads me to see someone with your level of standing in TL behave this way, even sadder still if it's any representation of the community as a whole.
I'll repeat what I said before. Elitism is not something to be lauded or fostered as a virtue.
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On January 24 2008 18:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: ....Right, and my main point is that despite how this shit is presented, Klazart shouldn't try to dismiss the criticisms themselves based on the fact that Zulu doesn't make commentaries, or based on the difficulty of making commentaries. Despite how Zulu worded everything, almost all of his specific comments are valid and true.
In a similar vein, the rest of you shouldn't immediately ignore that point just because I personally don't think Zulu's off-color remarks were as bad as some of you are making them out to be. Really? Like honestly?
Do you want me to pick apart Zulu's criticisms with my own? You don't see the condescending tone throughout?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 24 2008 18:27 Klaz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2008 17:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Hey here comes some nobody to tell me how wrong I am I don't want to debate endlessly on the commentary stuff so I've stopped responding in that regard. Since I think anything further by me on the topic is merely repitition. I've made my points and stance as clearly and coherently as I can. However... No offence but you have no right to call anyone a nobody. Who exactly are you that gives you that right exactly? Even if you were the president of the U.S. This kind of dismissal of other people's opinion as if they are beneath you somehow is not good. It shocks and sads me to see someone with your level of standing in TL behave this way, even sadder still if it's any representation of the community as a whole. I'll repeat what I said before. Elitism is not something to be lauded or fostered as a virtue.
You don't need to respond. The point has been made, and I really don't care if you understand it because I don't listen to your commentaries anymore anyway.
On to the other thing: that comment wasn't directed at you. I'm not gonna rattle off things that I've done that allow me to call someone with 8 posts I've never read a nobody after their ninth post is so ignorant. Furthermore, the insinuation that my attitude is disgraceful to the site I've put so much work into is utterly fucking offensive, and I suggest you don't take that notion any further.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 24 2008 18:30 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2008 18:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: ....Right, and my main point is that despite how this shit is presented, Klazart shouldn't try to dismiss the criticisms themselves based on the fact that Zulu doesn't make commentaries, or based on the difficulty of making commentaries. Despite how Zulu worded everything, almost all of his specific comments are valid and true.
In a similar vein, the rest of you shouldn't immediately ignore that point just because I personally don't think Zulu's off-color remarks were as bad as some of you are making them out to be. Really? Like honestly? Do you want me to pick apart Zulu's criticisms with my own? You don't see the condescending tone throughout?
HOW ITS PRESENTED ISNT THE IMPORTANT PART
If you want to make a huge list that no one will read of everything mean about zulu's post, go right ahead. I mean shit dude, I said "Zulu is brash and maybe the post was unnecessary" and you're still trying to tell me I don't think any of it is rude at all. Cooooooool.
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No, I'm talking about the content in addition to the tone (which is often even more important than the message itself). A lot of it is grabbing at straws, and really meaningless points.
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Russian Federation12 Posts
On January 24 2008 18:34 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2008 18:27 Klaz wrote:On January 24 2008 17:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Hey here comes some nobody to tell me how wrong I am I don't want to debate endlessly on the commentary stuff so I've stopped responding in that regard. Since I think anything further by me on the topic is merely repitition. I've made my points and stance as clearly and coherently as I can. However... No offence but you have no right to call anyone a nobody. Who exactly are you that gives you that right exactly? Even if you were the president of the U.S. This kind of dismissal of other people's opinion as if they are beneath you somehow is not good. It shocks and sads me to see someone with your level of standing in TL behave this way, even sadder still if it's any representation of the community as a whole. I'll repeat what I said before. Elitism is not something to be lauded or fostered as a virtue. You don't need to respond. The point has been made, and I really don't care if you understand it because I don't listen to your commentaries anymore anyway. On to the other thing: that comment wasn't directed at you. I'm not gonna rattle off things that I've done that allow me to call someone with 8 posts I've never read a nobody after their ninth post is so ignorant. Furthermore, the insinuation that my attitude is disgraceful to the site I've put so much work into is utterly fucking offensive, and I suggest you don't take that notion any further.
None of my posts are ignorant. I've provided links and backings to everything that I've said. What does the amount of posts that I have currently matter? Will my opinion matter more of I spam live threads to get my post count up like most people do?
And this site has gotten big because of the respectful attitudes of Hot_Bid, Manifesto, and thedeadhaji. I have never seen a post from them purposely patronize the members of this community and their opinions are always well thought out. Because I pointed out the erroneous aspects of your post, the only thing you can fall back on is personally insulting me instead of defending your OWN claim?
What I find offensive is the fact that you are displaying your contributions to this site as if you created it from the ground up and undermining the works of some of the exemplary people that represent this site, people i've listed above. I don't want to turn this into a flame fest, so I suggest you don't respond and move on.
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On to the other thing: that comment wasn't directed at you. I'm not gonna rattle off things that I've done that allow me to call someone with 8 posts I've never read a nobody after their ninth post is so ignorant. Furthermore, the insinuation that my attitude is disgraceful to the site I've put so much work into is utterly fucking offensive, and I suggest you don't take that notion any further.
Honestly, remarks like that are not going to bully me into not stating my opinion. 8 posts or 2000 posts, you have no right to belittle someone else's opinion. You disagree fine, but pretending like they don't have a right to have an opinion is way out of line in MY OPINION. You can rattle of whatever you want. Nothing gives you that right. Last I checked this was an open community where people had a right to voice their opinions.
Regardless of what work you have put into TL. Your attitude in belittling/dismissing someone else's opinion as if they are beneath you is disgraceful.
I have achieved a lot in life. I don't consider it gives me the right to treat someone else's opinions as worthless and non-existant however strongly I disagree with them. The simple fact is that becuase you could not deal with his arguement you resorted to Ad Hominem attacks.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 24 2008 18:36 teamsolid wrote: No, I'm talking about the content in addition to the tone (which is often even more important than the message itself). A lot of it is grabbing at straws, and really meaningless points.
This part I disagree on. Some of the things you think are meaningless are, say, this:
- 13:00, "Diggity do you think Jaedong is as on top of his game as any zerg can be right now?" wtf kind of a question is that? What could you have said? No, I think yarnc would be doing better?
right?
This is a valid criticism in that the only possible answer to this question is 'yes'. Commentators shouldn't be asking questions that don't need an answer. Jaedong is the best zerg on earth right now, no one needs to be told that he's on top of his game. As well, since Jaedong is the best player around, the suggestion that he's 'as on top of his game as any zerg can be' doesn't make sense. The only way to answer that question without unquestionably agreeing would be to suggest that another zerg has peaked in skill and is currently playing as good as he ever will, which doesn't make sense.
If you notice how awkward the response was, you can tell the question caught the other commentator off-guard. Asking a question that leaves no room for an answer besides agreement doesn't make sense from a commentating standpoint. A preferable alternative would be to attempt to pinpoint exactly what makes Jaedong currently so much stronger than every other zerg. Even if the conclusion reached is way off-base, its better than asking what Klazart asked.
You may disagree, and I think this in particular is one of the points that are questionable. I've only said that most or almost all of zulu's criticisms were accurate. There are certainly some things that are open to question.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 24 2008 18:47 Klaz wrote:Show nested quote + On to the other thing: that comment wasn't directed at you. I'm not gonna rattle off things that I've done that allow me to call someone with 8 posts I've never read a nobody after their ninth post is so ignorant. Furthermore, the insinuation that my attitude is disgraceful to the site I've put so much work into is utterly fucking offensive, and I suggest you don't take that notion any further.
Honestly, remarks like that are not going to bully me into not stating my opinion. 8 posts or 2000 posts, you have no right to belittle someone else's opinion. You disagree fine, but pretending like they don't have a right to have an opinion is way out of line in MY OPINION. You can rattle of whatever you want. Nothing gives you that right. Last I checked this was an open community where people had a right to voice their opinions. Regardless of what work you have put into TL. Your attitude in belittling/dismissing someone else's opinion as if they are beneath you is disgraceful. I have achieved a lot in life. I don't consider it gives me the right to treat someone else's opinions as worthless and non-existant however strongly I disagree with them. The simple fact is that becuase you could not deal with his arguement you resorted to Ad Hominem attacks.
If you were even the slightest bit correct on this, I wouldn't be a moderator.
I can tell you're displeased with my post too, because you're acting like a child. You're trying to tell me how I'm a black mark on this wondrous site, look at yourself. I "couldn't deal with his arguement"? His post focuses on one detail, and my entire point was to downplay the importance of that detail and look at more important things. Give me a break.
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On January 24 2008 18:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2008 18:47 Klaz wrote: On to the other thing: that comment wasn't directed at you. I'm not gonna rattle off things that I've done that allow me to call someone with 8 posts I've never read a nobody after their ninth post is so ignorant. Furthermore, the insinuation that my attitude is disgraceful to the site I've put so much work into is utterly fucking offensive, and I suggest you don't take that notion any further.
Honestly, remarks like that are not going to bully me into not stating my opinion. 8 posts or 2000 posts, you have no right to belittle someone else's opinion. You disagree fine, but pretending like they don't have a right to have an opinion is way out of line in MY OPINION. You can rattle of whatever you want. Nothing gives you that right. Last I checked this was an open community where people had a right to voice their opinions. Regardless of what work you have put into TL. Your attitude in belittling/dismissing someone else's opinion as if they are beneath you is disgraceful. I have achieved a lot in life. I don't consider it gives me the right to treat someone else's opinions as worthless and non-existant however strongly I disagree with them. The simple fact is that becuase you could not deal with his arguement you resorted to Ad Hominem attacks. If you were even the slightest bit correct on this, I wouldn't be a moderator.
Past actions and moderatorship notwithstanding, your remark in this thread speaks loudly and clearly, for itself.
Hey here comes some nobody to tell me how wrong I am!
Someone disagreed with you. You dismissed their opinion. And your stated reason is that based on their post count they are a nobody.
I don't think there is much room for obfuscation here. The attitude displayed by you in that remark is unmistakable.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 24 2008 18:57 Klaz wrote: Past actions and moderatorship notwithstanding, your remark in this thread speaks loudly and clearly, for itself.
Past actions? You don't even know what I do here and you're trying to tell me I'm disgraceful to the site? You've got to be fucking kidding me.
Someone disagreed with you. You dismissed their opinion. And your stated reason is that based on their post count they are a nobody.
I don't think there is much room for obfuscation here. The attitude displayed by you in that remark is unmistakable.
No. Someone posted something, and it was painfully evident that they just skimmed my post and jumped the fuck in. This is just an assumption you've made because you're too busy ACTING LIKE A CHILD to think before you post.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
I mean talk about being fucking dismissive, you're ignoring the entirety of my post and the points it makes, and instead baring your teeth because i called someone who isn't you a nobody, and then telling me I'm a disgrace to the site I fucking helped build into what it is now?
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Your resorting to more and more aggressive and personal insults.
I said clearly... your attitude as displayed by that remark is indeed disgraceful to the site, and I stand by that.
You claim he skimmed your post. I don't agree. I read the entirety of your post. But nothing in it justifies calling someone a nobody. What does it matter if it is me or isn't me? I can still express my opinion on it.
You're building up the site isn't what I'm questioning. But neither does it justify or expiate your actions. Regardless this is my last word on the matter.
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Zurich15245 Posts
Jesus, you guys seriously need to cool off, this has turned into a meta meta flame fest within hours. And it's gonna continue down this road if you keep attacking each other while emotions fly this high.
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Osaka26967 Posts
On January 24 2008 19:15 Klaz wrote: Your resorting to more and more aggressive and personal insults.
I said clearly... your attitude as displayed by that remark is indeed disgraceful to the site, and I stand by that.
You claim he skimmed your post. I don't agree. I read the entirety of your post. But nothing in it justifies calling someone a nobody. What does it matter if it is me or isn't me? I can still express my opinion on it.
You're building up the site isn't what I'm questioning. But neither does it justify or expiate your actions. Regardless this is my last word on the matter.
You are in no way qualified to judge what is "disgraceful" to this site. Especially not when you are talking to someone who has been here and contributed for years.
Im cleaning this blog up in 10 minutes, after my sandwiches.
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51146 Posts
On January 24 2008 19:50 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2008 19:15 Klaz wrote: Your resorting to more and more aggressive and personal insults.
I said clearly... your attitude as displayed by that remark is indeed disgraceful to the site, and I stand by that.
You claim he skimmed your post. I don't agree. I read the entirety of your post. But nothing in it justifies calling someone a nobody. What does it matter if it is me or isn't me? I can still express my opinion on it.
You're building up the site isn't what I'm questioning. But neither does it justify or expiate your actions. Regardless this is my last word on the matter. You are in no way qualified to judge what is "disgraceful" to this site. Especially not when you are talking to someone who has been here and contributed for years. Im cleaning this blog up in 10 minutes, after my sandwiches.
I want a sandwich
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On January 24 2008 19:50 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2008 19:15 Klaz wrote: Your resorting to more and more aggressive and personal insults.
I said clearly... your attitude as displayed by that remark is indeed disgraceful to the site, and I stand by that.
You claim he skimmed your post. I don't agree. I read the entirety of your post. But nothing in it justifies calling someone a nobody. What does it matter if it is me or isn't me? I can still express my opinion on it.
You're building up the site isn't what I'm questioning. But neither does it justify or expiate your actions. Regardless this is my last word on the matter. You are in no way qualified to judge what is "disgraceful" to this site. Especially not when you are talking to someone who has been here and contributed for years. Im cleaning this blog up in 10 minutes, after my sandwiches.
It's your site and your perogative.
Calling someone a "nobody" because of a low post count is in my opinion a disgraceful thing to do. You can chose to condone or ignore it because it's someone who has long standing in the community/ has contributed/ is your friend, whatever. That's your choice.
It doesn't change the essence of the truth.
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Osaka26967 Posts
First, your a cry baby if you think that one or two people giving you negative feedback is out of line. I did commentaries for years before you even existed, and I had some people tell me they were the greatest, and others tell me I was a retard. Even today, people hound me on bnet and send me the worst PMs imaginable because they dont like what I do. Anything you release to the public domain will be treated that way. Stop crying about that. It is up to you do be more thick skinned about what is said on the internet.
Second, I dont really care so much about what zulu said and what you think about it. What I can't abide is that when someone differs in his opinion and takes the time to make his points, you dismiss him without taking into account any of his points.
Steve IS a longstanding member of this community. He has earned his place at the table, and some faggot 8 post troll means NOTHING in comparison. That is the way this site has always worked. If you don't like it leave. However, you are in no position to dismiss him and his opinions with no evidence at all.
Talk about the issues he raised, or ignore it. Do not be a child about it.
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On January 24 2008 20:17 Manifesto7 wrote: First, your a cry baby if you think that one or two people giving you negative feedback is out of line. I did commentaries for years before you even existed, and I had some people tell me they were the greatest, and others tell me I was a retard. Even today, people hound me on bnet and send me the worst PMs imaginable because they dont like what I do. Anything you release to the public domain will be treated that way. Stop crying about that. It is up to you do be more thick skinned about what is said on the internet.
Second, I dont really care so much about what zulu said and what you think about it. What I can't abide is that when someone differs in his opinion and takes the time to make his points, you dismiss him without taking into account any of his points.
Steve IS a longstanding member of this community. He has earned his place at the table, and some faggot 8 post troll means NOTHING in comparison. That is the way this site has always worked. If you don't like it leave. However, you are in no position to dismiss him and his opinions with no evidence at all.
Talk about the issues he raised, or ignore it. Do not be a child about it.
I tried to think of a rational response to something so filled with vitriole. I don't think it's possible
You're name calling doesn't add validity to anything you said. You come running to defend your friend when he get's "attacked". Yet you tell other people to not be "cry babies."
Your talk of dismissing peoples opinions reeks of rank hypocrisy considering the actions you are defending. In fact your entire post does.
Your last paragraph is in itself the worst indictment anyone could every write about what you have posted, so I'm not going to say anything further about it.
I'm grateful to teamliquid.net for introducing me to pro-starcraft and all the vods and all the rest. But you're right about one thing. If I don't like the kind of attitude displayed by FakeSteve and now yourself, the best option is for me to not post here.
p.s. your post and attitude is far more childish than anything you accuse me of.
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Osaka26967 Posts
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Osaka26967 Posts
O, and as to your PM,
From: Klaz Subject: bias and neutrality Date: 1/24/08 19:53 So being here and contributing to the site gives people the right to call others nobody? You don't feel that is a disgraceful thing to do?
1. Yes. 2. No.
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Melbourne5338 Posts
Isn't the bias to veteran posters clearly outlined in the 10 Commandments?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
What ...the...Fuck....
What dont you get? This isn't a debate. Veterans earn respect and you don't just continually rebut rebut rebut everything with these bullshit tales of whats fair. If you dont think this is a fair site, your free to leave. At some point though when not one, not two but three staff members are telling you you are wrong....maybe...just maybe....we aren't the fucking man trying to hold you down and you should shut up.
Somehow you missed this thread. This is our foundation and our code. You should read it - multiple times if necessary.
<a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17911">http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17911</a>
Look at this kid http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=65590
Notice how people are minutemen to start helping him out? Thats what this community is. You wont always like criticism that is given but God you better learn to live with it.
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I really promised myself that I would stop responding to this thread but I keep getting sucked in.
The hypocrisy really gets to me. How can you talk about taking criticism when you declare yourselves immune to it as "veterens"?
One good thing somewhere else, doesn't negate a bad thing here.
But I get it right the commandments.... life's not fair, TL is not fair etc. etc. etc.
Isn't this also in your commandments - "Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass"
some faggot 8 post troll means
But the right of the vetrans over rides that of course.
It's handy that doing whatever you want is built right into the commandments for "veterans," which i'm sure includes breaking the commandments as it suits you.
Isn't treating people the way you want to be treated also in the commandments somewhere?
I guess people around here like others going around calling them nobodies. But wait, they've got a higher post count so they can treat others how they themselves don't want to be treated.
I rebut and rebut and rebut I guess. There's no point right because it's all about who has the higher post count and what not. What's right or fair etc. is irrelevant. Fine. But I'm not going to be bullied into not giving my opinion. Because I don't believe that anyone here is better than me in any way. I also do believe in things like integrity and decency. Feel free to crucify me for that.
And that really is my last post on the subject.
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please look at my blog klazart
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Braavos36362 Posts
I'm sure many people have stated this already, but I'd like to emphasize it.
When you put your work into the public sphere, no matter how good it is, it will receive criticism. There are two ways to respond to this criticism. You can evaluate it and determine if it's legitimate, then improve whatever you are doing so you receive less of it. Or, you can dismiss it and attack the person who criticized you.
No matter how Zulu framed his words (he even made an apology about his tone I think), his concerns are legitimate. In order for you guys to improve on commentating games, you have to improve on your understanding of it, especially at the proscene.
Commentating like many things is a constant improvement. Zulu and FakeSteve both made very legitimate points about the weaknesses in your commentaries. Instead of internalizing them and learning from them and possibly producing a better product next time, you've chosen to argue and attack them on issues that really aren't important relative to the heart of what they are saying. It's a shame, because for all the potential you guys seem to have, a reluctance or inability to receive criticism and improve is poison to your contribution here.
It doesn't matter that they don't make commentaries. It doesn't matter that they don't seem to "recognize the contribution" you and moletrap and diggity or whoever put forth. Criticism and improvement are not about those things.
Simply putting out commentaries isn't rocket science. Great commentating, however, is, and hopefully that's something you are actively looking to move toward. The bottom line is you guys are good but not great. Criticism is something that will help you get there. If being a great commentator isn't your goal, don't assert that all the flaws Zulu finds are simply stupid or illegitimate because of his "tone" or whatever.
FakeSteve and Zulu have their own opinions, and you have yours. They aren't always right; I've argued with them (often heatedly) a lot of times. But disagreeing with someone is one thing. Defending your own work by attacking others with condescension, self-righteousness and false entitlement is completely different. Doing that won't make your commentaries better, and that's something we all want that.
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Calgary25940 Posts
Once you become staff your heart immediately turns black and your sole quest becomes attaining power by banning or punishing innocents. I have heard this supposed myth confirmed by many crazy people.
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On January 24 2008 17:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote + I think the fact that most of my you tube videos get 2,000 - 4,000+, views suggests to me that a lot of people enjoy watching my commented vods, for WHATEVER reason, and this also motivates me to keep going. I've had a lot of comments from people who say they don't even play starcraft anymore. They just like watching cause it's fun. Personally, I feel anything that helps grow and sustain the starcraft e-sports scene is a good thing, and should be supported, whoever happens to be doing it, but obviously I might be biased in having that view point.
Zulu isn't suggesting you stop, he's said repeated times that despite your somewhat mundane knowledge of the game, he appreciates what you do.
Actually FakeSteve, one of Zulu's first posts said just that.
On January 21 2008 14:27 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I'm being nice, from what you and diggity come off as on Teamliquid I think you guys should stop doing commentaries but I fully understand your passion and respect the energy and work you guys have put in, but I doubt anyone is learning from them.
Does that change your opinion at all?
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Yes that was my first comment to moletrap, I've since then apologized and said I didn't want them to stop but only to make them aware the rampant, obvious mistakes in their commentaries
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Wow this is really spinning out of control is essentially baseline exactly what I didn't want.
First of all I actually really appreciated the 2nd feedback set. It was all really helpful information. I didn't appreciate the tone.
Klaz also wanted to point out that post analysis is a lot different from in the mix analysis. So its helpful to keep that in mind when giving feedback.
I'm not sure if I can emphasize this enough, but the 2nd feedback example was exactly what I was looking for.
And really on all future commentaries I would appreciate the same because I really do think it will help me improve.
What I think Klaz is primarily concerned about is the attitude surrounding the entire thing. While this could have been handled in a private manner Zulu went out of his way to make it public, which seems like a general attempt to belittle.
Additionally from our perspective there seems to be this enclave of people watching and grumbling talking about "how we think we are so gosu" or something like that when its just not the case.
It really does feel like there is a group of 40 or so people that are just sitting around badmouthing the commentaries and pointing out flaws not to make them better but because of some general ill impression of us or something. Really it feels like people are just sitting around in IRC talking trash and now that they have an opportunity to do it in public they are doing so.
I have never claimed to be fantastic, because honestly at the moment I am terrible, but for whatever reason people get the impression that just because we are commentating on the games that we are laying hold to some sort of entitlement, we aren't.
As klaz said earlier we do this because we enjoy ourselves and hope to draw people in to esports.
We have never claimed to be professionals, we have only claimed to be enthusiast.
Generally its really difficult to remain motivated to provide any of this considering the time commitment.
Its extremely demotivating to put something out there in your free time and then have people rail against the very concept of it.
Its like cooking a dinner for someone and instead of saying no thank you or "I prefer this other meal" they punch you in the face.
Anyhow the main points I'm concerned with in general are 1) the general negative attitude that seems to be prevelant everywhere on teamliquid at the moment.
and
2) I'm serious... I want feedback but I don't appreciate everything else that seems to be attached behind it.
Seriously is there anyway that this could be generally resolved towards the betterment of the community at large instead of continuing with the general harsh feelings that seem to be developing.
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I never watch English shoutcasts.
As a moderately good player, I have yet to ever hear a commentary add anything to my understanding of the game. I have never heard a commentary which made me go Oh, so that's what he's doing, that's clever.
English shoutcasts pretty much alternate between adding nothing for me (I actually have to group Tasteless in here), annoying me (by just sounding unprofessional) and making me cringe (by completely misunderstanding what is going on).
Korean shoutcasts and audience add alot to the atmosphere of the game without pissing me off. Except when either player is clearly done for and they try to maintain the suspense.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 01:02 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2008 17:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I think the fact that most of my you tube videos get 2,000 - 4,000+, views suggests to me that a lot of people enjoy watching my commented vods, for WHATEVER reason, and this also motivates me to keep going. I've had a lot of comments from people who say they don't even play starcraft anymore. They just like watching cause it's fun. Personally, I feel anything that helps grow and sustain the starcraft e-sports scene is a good thing, and should be supported, whoever happens to be doing it, but obviously I might be biased in having that view point.
Zulu isn't suggesting you stop, he's said repeated times that despite your somewhat mundane knowledge of the game, he appreciates what you do. Actually FakeSteve, one of Zulu's first posts said just that. Show nested quote +On January 21 2008 14:27 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I'm being nice, from what you and diggity come off as on Teamliquid I think you guys should stop doing commentaries but I fully understand your passion and respect the energy and work you guys have put in, but I doubt anyone is learning from them.
Does that change your opinion at all?
Nope, because:
On January 25 2008 01:08 zulu_nation8 wrote: Yes that was my first comment to moletrap, I've since then apologized and said I didn't want them to stop but only to make them aware the rampant, obvious mistakes in their commentaries
Zulu is a friend of mine, remember. I know the entire situation very well
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I joined teamliquid.net for the primary purpose of posting here. I know nothing about this site, but I've seen about 80% of Klazart's commentaries that are on YouTube or Google Video.
I need to post about this because Klazart's commentaries have fast become my livelihood. I've discovered, in part thanks to Klazart, that I love watching professional Starcraft, even more than I like playing as an amateur (read noob).
On merit and value: The hundreds of of ravingly positive comments, thumbs up, and good ratings of Klazart's YouTube videos is all the justification that is required. Klazart provides a hugely valuable service that is unrivaled in the English-speaking Internet.
On difficulty of live commentary: I think some people may not understand how extremely difficult it is to deliver good commentary in real time. The recent incident of innocently suggesting the lynching of Tiger Woods should underscore how much inherent error there is in real time off-the-cuff remarks, even at the highest levels of professionalism.
On feedback: This feedback by zulu is not typical of most feedback, in that it is clearly thoughtless and incendiary, but I suspect it was still offered for the right reasons. I genuinely beleive that most "Internet feedback," including that directed at English commentators, is truly intended to be helpful. Most people assume, perhaps wrongly, that people like Klazart and Diggity are interested in continually improving themselves, and like to offer whatever advice that have, perhaps as a way to partially recompense the author. The tendancy of people to be rude or antisocial when using the Internet seems only to be an unfortunate side effect.
On improvement: I agree with zulu in that English commentaries can be improved, both in technical accuracy, and communication in general. Klazart's commentaries, despite their overwhelming awesomeness, are no exception. Klazart is a free man, and is welcome to use his life however he pleases, but secretly (or not) I hope he realizes the problems in past commentaries, and improves them in new commentaries.
On compensation: My other now-not-secret wish is that the community can find some way to compensate Klazart and other people who excel to his level for the excellent service he is providing. Klazart's stuff is good, good enough to pay for. It's unfortunate that real world constraints mean ordinary sales of Klazart's work are impossible. Compensation would provide incentives to fix some of the more glaring problems in these commentaries.
I have a list of things Klazart does that annoy the living crap out of me, but honestly, they're not really relevant. I hope Klazart continues doing the commentaries, because its obvious that whatever talents he might have, this is definitely one of them; whatever way he decides that he will commentate on Starcraft, I know he will do it superlatively, and I will listen.
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There are definitely some problems in the commentaries (I still like them quite a bit, especially Klaz) but some of the criticism did strike me as nitpicky and just for the sake of finding fault (along with the unhelpful tone and some snide comments). Take the Jaedong thing. Why shouldnt they make clear through a question-and-response that Jaedong is THE zerg, totally on top of his game right now? A lot of Klaz's viewers I bet might not have even heard of JD or known much about him, hes an up and coming player. Sure people who follow the scene religiously know all that already, and even for newcomers the phrasing was a bit awkward, but there it is.
Obviously not a big point, but then there was no real need to bring it up either.
I have friends who aren't even that into Starcraft and only watch professional vods thanks to Klaz's english commentary. He's doing the foreign Starcraft scene a really nice service, and while there is definite weakness on the strategy side of things, he has I feel earned the right not to be mocked snidely or derided, especially by people who have a stake in this foreign scene.
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Damn dictatorship sucks, Klaz just keep commentating and a lot of people will still be watching including me, i think what you are doing is great, whit time you will get better so keep up the good work ^^
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On January 24 2008 13:43 fight_or_flight wrote: I absolutely love your commentaries. To me its entertainment, a replacement for tv.
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Klaz, you are providing the entire foreign sc community with commentaries on a language they understand. Dont let anyone discourage you from that.
If you get critisism that allows you to improve things, say thanks and continue working.
If you dont feel it's improving your commentaries, I suggets you ingore him or at max like "thanks for trying to help, but I didnt really find it helpful". Then spend your time on your fans instead! Like me.
And on that note: Is there any possibility that you could release the commentaries after the last torrent (about half a year ago?) in higher quality? It'd be fun to have them all in high quality. You can PM if you need help with sorting/uploading or anything. Sexual favours are (at least to some extent) excluded.
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On January 26 2008 22:59 Cascade wrote: And on that note: Is there any possibility that you could release the commentaries after the last torrent (about half a year ago?) in higher quality? It'd be fun to have them all in high quality. You can PM if you need help with sorting/uploading or anything. Sexual favours are (at least to some extent) excluded.
doubleplus on this. I've only seen the YouTube and Google Video commentaries, which leave a lot to be desired. Primarily, I hate not being able to see the mini-map very well.
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I think that the most important function of SC commentators is to make the pro SC games watchable and entertaining. This is how new players are brought into the game- better to have new players than no players, right?
I can honestly say that I wouldn't have followed SC progaming if it wasn't for the English commentators. Years ago, I went to Korea, saw a lot of SC on TV, but really forgot about it after that. Klazart really brought me into the game and the world of e-sports, because the commentary was entertaining.
I do think that my understanding of the game is increased by the commentaries, and the "feedback" remarked on greatly overstates any mistakes commentators have made, but this is actually besides the point.
These commentaries serve an important function and take up an important role in bringing SC to other countries besides Korea, and the dedication and effort of the commentators should not be taken for granted.
That's my $0.02.
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Hi Jyun! Welcome to Teamliquid.net Hope you find it cool here
Anyways, you've just bumped a pretty old thread. While your post was a quality post, and this discussion could continue with more personal insight from people like you, it was quite a heated argument back when this occurred. Bumping old threads (2 months or older) is usually looked down upon at teamliquid unless there's a good reason. So, just some friendly advice is not to bump old threads like these, as it may rekindle the fire of the flame war, or you may get flamed at yourself :o Good post though and welcome to teamliquid!
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The blog section is usually alot more easy-going on that kind of stuff. That said, I think this one was doing fine in it's grave. If another huge flame war ensues I might have to put out the fire with another case-closing commentary just like last time
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Awww man you need to make another one
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Zurich15245 Posts
If it leads you to make more commentaries I will start 10 flamewars immediatly. Hell, I'd start *real* wars to get more out of synch wraith/firebat insight.
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Klazart, I like your commentaries. You have a great voice. When I haven't already seen the VOD in Korean, I watch yours.
If you want, I can write you short game analysis from my own experience. Maybe it can help improve future casting.
Knowledge is good and all, but it's a waste if the voice isn't there. I remember someone saying about another commentator that was something like, "shit. that was one of the greatest game yet the commentaries put me to sleep." It's was the Iris vs Jaedong Proleague finals.
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Seems to me as tho that guy is in the minority. Klaz i love your commentaries, they are hilarious. I dont always agree w/ what your saying, or ill notice that u totally have no idea whats going on sometimes, but thats half the enjoyment. You are seriously my favorite commentator ive ever watched. (and ive watched a lot) If they could put u in seoul, korea for the Avertec-Intel Classic ro4, it would be awesome. *maybe you should check out the new broadcast studio feature ? Idk whats ur sched is like. But anways, keep up the good work, you should get paid for the joy you bring to many fans of sc.
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