So some coworkers of mine were having a discussion revolving around what is and isn't twitch game play and "Coworker 1" proposed that WoW was twitch gaming. Debatable, I didn't get into it. Then it veered towards saying WoW was as "twitch" as fighting games. Again, debatable so I stayed out of it. The kicker came when they started getting into how intense and how much skill a game requires and Coworker 1 stated that WoW requires more skill and is more intense then Starcraft.
I got Coworker 1 to agree to play me in SC, he says he's pretty good.
Always a chance that this guy is some Flash-like wrecking machine hustling poor D players like myself. I'm inclined to believe that is not the case though. Reps will be posted when this happens. I'm giddy just thinking about it.
WoW PvP is a joke and always have been. Despite optimism at Lich King's release that they might fix the balance of classes in arena, things are just as skewed, if not more so, than during TBC. The fact that someone might consider something this imbalanced as heavily skill-based seriously amazes me. You just can't have the same level of depth if one setup is significantly more powerful than others.
On April 22 2009 01:56 TheYango wrote: WoW PvP is a joke and always have been. Despite optimism at Lich King's release that they might fix the balance of classes in arena, things are just as skewed, if not more so, than during TBC. The fact that someone might consider something this imbalanced as heavily skill-based seriously amazes me. You just can't have the same level of depth if one setup is significantly more powerful than others.
lol i play both and of course sc has a lot more skill than wow... but wow the only thing is that takes some what some skill is what to use to counter and your timing.
On April 22 2009 01:56 TheYango wrote: WoW PvP is a joke and always have been. Despite optimism at Lich King's release that they might fix the balance of classes in arena, things are just as skewed, if not more so, than during TBC. The fact that someone might consider something this imbalanced as heavily skill-based seriously amazes me. You just can't have the same level of depth if one setup is significantly more powerful than others.
WoW PvP is not even balanced. It's really hard to design classes that are meant to play a certain role in a team in PvE but also compete against eachother in PvP. So it's not balanced. Besides that, Blizzard made wow more newb-friendly with each expansion they released so LK PvP doesn't even require that much skill. Fast reflexes and a decent knowledge of spell combos and debuffs is enough to be really good.
Then again, with the amount of experience I have as a starcraft player, I find it really easy to spot the obvious lack of balance in PvP but some really don't. In most cases, trying to explain to people that play other games that starcraft is hard proves to be quite a lost cause and I've learned to accept that they just can't understand.
SC requires alot more raw skill at top level, but WoW requires more twitch and periferal vision.
Also WoW is hardly a grind, Takes about a week to get to level 80, then its working your way up the ladder from there. WoW just sucks because it's imbalanced.
On April 22 2009 02:08 FirstBorn wrote: Then again, with the amount of experience I have as a starcraft player, I find it really easy to spot the obvious lack of balance in PvP but some really don't. In most cases, trying to explain to people that play other games that starcraft is hard proves to be quite a lost cause and I've learned to accept that they just can't understand.
There's not much to "spot". Some classes are ubiquitous at the higher skill levels of PvP, while some aren't seen at all. How is that not obvious?
I've been getting into WoW PvP, and I don't think it's as easy as some people say. I mean, there are some classes that might be a bit easier to play than others, but some classes can get pretty technical.
For example, I started out playing as a Rogue, but had to re-roll because I could not for the life of me figure out combo points, when to use evis, cheap shot, etc. Then you have to know how to sneak up on people, when to run/hide, appear, etc. It was actually pretty fun (and I'm sure I could've learned it in time, but isn't that just like SC?) So, I re-rolled a Warlock, and it seems a bit less technical, but still pretty hectic.
On April 22 2009 02:08 FirstBorn wrote: Then again, with the amount of experience I have as a starcraft player, I find it really easy to spot the obvious lack of balance in PvP but some really don't. In most cases, trying to explain to people that play other games that starcraft is hard proves to be quite a lost cause and I've learned to accept that they just can't understand.
There's not much to "spot". Some classes are ubiquitous at the higher skill levels of PvP, while some aren't seen at all. How is that not obvious?
People still claim it requiers skill and that it's intense. Means it's not that obvious to them.
if he actually thinks wow requires more skill then SC then there is a 0% chance that he is any good at starcraft, and you will crush him easily. Or he could just be trolling you
On April 22 2009 01:56 TheYango wrote: WoW PvP is a joke and always have been. Despite optimism at Lich King's release that they might fix the balance of classes in arena, things are just as skewed, if not more so, than during TBC. The fact that someone might consider something this imbalanced as heavily skill-based seriously amazes me. You just can't have the same level of depth if one setup is significantly more powerful than others.
On April 22 2009 03:01 Piy wrote: PvP in WoW is actually pretty amazing at the highest levels. From what I've heard the reflexes required are insane.
Saying WOW requires no skill is just as retarded as the guy in the OP, so i will not deny WOW is easy. WOW does require skill, but it is only 1skill, namely speed and reflexes. SC requires a broad spectrum of different skills, i.e. strategy, multitasking, finger speed, tactics, micro, creativity, reading your opponent, mind games in a bo series, ...
WoOW might (arguable) require you to have better reflexes then sc, but it is the only thing you really need to excel at WOW (some team strats perhaps, but i doubt there is a lot of on-the-fly strategy adaptation and countering), where at sc your require different and more skills.
This rationale can be extended to all sort of different games, each type of game requires some specific skill. RTS in general en SC in specific, require all possible skills.
Yeah, saying WoW requires no skill is not very smart. Lower skill ceiling, and lower skill differential compared with SC is probably pretty easy to argue though.
On April 22 2009 03:27 errol1001 wrote: Yeah, saying WoW requires no skill is not very smart. Lower skill ceiling, and lower skill differential compared with SC is probably pretty easy to argue though.
i actually improved a lot on WoW after practicing SC and such, i still play both right now but im worse at SC than when i only plated that but thats a different subject
nothing much to say WoW definetly has a lower skill ceiling
On April 22 2009 01:56 TheYango wrote: WoW PvP is a joke and always have been. Despite optimism at Lich King's release that they might fix the balance of classes in arena, things are just as skewed, if not more so, than during TBC. The fact that someone might consider something this imbalanced as heavily skill-based seriously amazes me. You just can't have the same level of depth if one setup is significantly more powerful than others.
only high level arena was good.. that was like a year ago not sure what its like now.. Some teams are just so OP its retarded.
On April 22 2009 03:01 Piy wrote: PvP in WoW is actually pretty amazing at the highest levels. From what I've heard the reflexes required are insane.
Reflexes defianately plays a big part of WoW.
When i used to play wow, i played from season 2-4 as a gladiator. My teammate could spellock fel domination 70% of the time, and my warrior teammate could pummel feldom 90% of the time, and that wasn't predicting the cast, it was reacting to it. Fel dom has a cast time of .5 seconds.and they both had an amazing under 10 latency, while i had 400 latency(YAY NEW ZEALAND). Gotta take into account from seeing the cast to putting your finger over your spellock button as well. . I thought their reactions were pretty insane since most of the sponsored wow players could'nt do it.
Since you have a TL.net account makes me think that you will plunder him blind at sc. Also assuming that he is not actively playing the game. Looking forward to replays, go queen+broodling.
hahaha i remember standing with a bunch of TLers at WWI and the WoW matches were playing just before Kal/Dreiven...so we thought screw it we'll "give wow pvp a chance"....basically it was 6 minutes of laggy particle effects, 3000 apm spam of one or 2 hotkeys and then alot of ALRIGHT LETS DO YEAH FUCK YEAH BRO! lol. We lasted about 2 rounds before leaving. That being said they (korean and american wow kids) were fun to drink with
On April 22 2009 03:01 Piy wrote: PvP in WoW is actually pretty amazing at the highest levels. From what I've heard the reflexes required are insane.
Saying WOW requires no skill is just as retarded as the guy in the OP, so i will not deny WOW is easy. WOW does require skill, but it is only 1skill, namely speed and reflexes. SC requires a broad spectrum of different skills, i.e. strategy, multitasking, finger speed, tactics, micro, creativity, reading your opponent, mind games in a bo series, ...
WoOW might (arguable) require you to have better reflexes then sc, but it is the only thing you really need to excel at WOW (some team strats perhaps, but i doubt there is a lot of on-the-fly strategy adaptation and countering), where at sc your require different and more skills.
This rationale can be extended to all sort of different games, each type of game requires some specific skill. RTS in general en SC in specific, require all possible skills.
WoW requires more peripheral vision and a little better at mind games imo, although that's hard to argue. SC requires waaaaaaay better multitasking and accuracy with a mouse, game sense, timing as well. Strategizing for WoW is pretty basic but so is sc imo.
i think a twitch game is one where only a small percentage of the players can do certain fast reaction moves and everyone else is too slow. if everyone can do them, then it's not twitch, even though they might be fairly fast reactions (.5-.7s). on lan latency, i dont think wow is twitch. interrupting feldom is a rare exception. but i dont think it's fair to say they werent predicting the cast. im sure whenever the lock's pet is dead and he hasnt used feldom yet that fight, that move is brought to the front of their minds.
about sc being twitch: there are a lot of places in high level play where it's very twitch. especially if you factor in every move that the player does. they're definitely not all important enough that they'll determine the result of the game, but they're important. responding to an upgrade finishing, controlling your harrass units as soon as they reach their destination, responding to enemy harrass, all kinds of micro moves, etc. there's nothing like swinging 180 degrees and head sniping someone, but there certainly are a ton of reactionary moves that need to be done just as fast as that, and they're all important.
A bit of an update, I initially thought he was going to be a P player but could perhaps be a Z player since he played Tyranids in DoW2. Turns out he plays Z, with a little P on the side.
I found it funny since he said he figured me for a P player since apparently all the best players he's faced are P players. He was totally surprised that I was a T player. Wonder what it says about us when we both guessed that each other were P players lol. For entirely different reasons I'm sure.
I fully expect him to try to all in rush based on the way I see him approach most games. 4-5 pool certainly isn't out of the question and given his reaction to me saying I play T I have a nagging feeling he'll try to go 1 base lurks.
Anyway, the last question I've got to ask him is what map he wants to play on. I think this will tell me a lot about his skill level.
Obscure Blizz map = Free win. Lost Temple/Luna = D- at best I'd guess. Python = Could be a challenge. Anything current like Colosseum, God's Garden, etc = I'd be very worried.
And yeah, I'll make sure to get at least a bo3. Hopefully a bo5.
On April 22 2009 02:23 TheosEx wrote: I've been getting into WoW PvP, and I don't think it's as easy as some people say. I mean, there are some classes that might be a bit easier to play than others, but some classes can get pretty technical.
For example, I started out playing as a Rogue, but had to re-roll because I could not for the life of me figure out combo points, when to use evis, cheap shot, etc. Then you have to know how to sneak up on people, when to run/hide, appear, etc. It was actually pretty fun (and I'm sure I could've learned it in time, but isn't that just like SC?) So, I re-rolled a Warlock, and it seems a bit less technical, but still pretty hectic.
Dude rogue isn't complicated. It's as easy as people call protoss, its just 1a2a3a, except without the A obviously.
On April 22 2009 04:05 Liquid`NonY wrote: i think a twitch game is one where only a small percentage of the players can do certain fast reaction moves and everyone else is too slow. if everyone can do them, then it's not twitch, even though they might be fairly fast reactions (.5-.7s). on lan latency, i dont think wow is twitch. interrupting feldom is a rare exception. but i dont think it's fair to say they werent predicting the cast. im sure whenever the lock's pet is dead and he hasnt used feldom yet that fight, that move is brought to the front of their minds.
about sc being twitch: there are a lot of places in high level play where it's very twitch. especially if you factor in every move that the player does. they're definitely not all important enough that they'll determine the result of the game, but they're important. responding to an upgrade finishing, controlling your harrass units as soon as they reach their destination, responding to enemy harrass, all kinds of micro moves, etc. there's nothing like swinging 180 degrees and head sniping someone, but there certainly are a ton of reactionary moves that need to be done just as fast as that, and they're all important.
mostly i agree, but feldom isn't a rare exception, because of fake casting, good players have to pummel/kick/spellock at the very end of a cast so the enemy can't fake the cast, which requires about as much twitch as a feldom if not more so. Then there's people who know about this and fake their cast at the end of their spell.it goes on, and then theres an assortment of both mind games and twitch. I've realized this discussion is dumb though because the skill caps for havn't nearly been reached for both games, and are unreachable. Starcraft does require alot of twitch but the game is not focused on that because most the time you need to focus on many things at once, and twitch isn't the best way to use your apm.
Also they were using twitch to stop feldoms because they could do it in a duel where the spell would randomly be used. (They were expecting the spell but not predict-interrupting.)
On April 22 2009 03:01 Piy wrote: PvP in WoW is actually pretty amazing at the highest levels. From what I've heard the reflexes required are insane.
Requiring reflexes =/= requiring skill. Fast reflexes are just one subset of the large number of skills that a game might use. A game where you're scored on how fast you can press a button when you hear a sound also requires fast reflexes, but is hardly a game of intense skill.
On April 22 2009 03:20 Gnojfatelob wrote: Saying WOW requires no skill is just as retarded as the guy in the OP, so i will not deny WOW is easy. WOW does require skill, but it is only 1skill, namely speed and reflexes. SC requires a broad spectrum of different skills, i.e. strategy, multitasking, finger speed, tactics, micro, creativity, reading your opponent, mind games in a bo series, ...
When people say WoW takes no skill, they mean it in the relative sense, obviously not in the absolute sense. It takes skill, but in comparison to Starcraft, its orders of magnitude less, as evidenced by all the things you mention.
WoW isn't anywhere near SC in terms of skill. I'm also pretty skeptical about the whole reflexes argument. Sure, faster reflexes can be the difference between a win and a loss for two very good teams. But I've seen some ridiculously slow/stupid/terrible people make 2300/2400+ rating (and I don't just mean this season with the absurd rating inflation) simply because of the fact that WoW arena can hinge on so many factors other than skill.
Of course this is just talking about the public arena system, I know Blizzard has done their best to eliminate outside factors in their competitive matches (which I admittedly haven't followed in many months, so I'll try not to comment further on that). I think that MMOs just aren't able to be much good as competitive games, really.
In all my experiences and experiences of others with the same experiences who posted on TL the random people who say they are pretty good at SC are like D- at best, usually more like E- or F- if there was such a rank. Guy will probably want to play Fastest map or random blizzard maps because those take the most skill or something stupid like that. Generally they have less than 100 apm and don't even know about basic concepts such as always building workers and keeping the bank low, so you can probably beat them in any matchup on any map with any build. Have fun
this shows i think last seasons balance in terms of top whatever amount 2v2 players in terms of class/spec. as you can see... some classes make it up more than others
this shows i think last seasons balance in terms of top whatever amount 2v2 players in terms of class/spec. as you can see... some classes make it up more than others
And the same two classes top off the 3v3 and 5v5 rankings, albeit in less dominant fashion. Still says a lot about the balance.
On April 22 2009 09:57 GTR wrote: imo when wow was released it's sole purpose/orientation was pve/end-game raiding
i don't really see it shifting to a pvp game as much as blizzard is trying to balance between pve/pvp balancing
This is kind of the point. Its pretty hard to say that a game that was made for cooperative play will be skill-intensive at a competitive level, because a lot of the time, elements that help one will hurt the other, and at those points, Blizzard is pretty much going to always give in favor of PvE, because thats what the game was originally designed for.
On April 22 2009 12:29 D4EMON wrote: actually as much as i think wow are filled w/ fags high level pvp in WoW actually very skill intensive
Compared to what? If you'd read the thread, it's benn pretty systematically shown that while WoW PvP requires some skill, it pales in comparison to the standard by which everyone on TL.net is going to be familiar with (and the topic of the OP), Starcraft.
one thing is for sure though, you don't have to put in as many hours for WoW to become the top PvP player than the amount of hours you need to put to become a top Starcraft player. With WoW if you played 2 hours a day doing arena you could get to the top but with starcraft all the pro gamers play 6-13 hours a day, most playing about 12 hours. So i think starcraft does require quite alot more skill, also just from experience it took about the same amount of practice to get to my shitty C- rank(though i have been only playing starcraft for 6 months), than to get to the top 20 page on the ladder for WoW.
With WoW the most unfortunate thing is that skill sometimes does not matter. Really good players can sometimes not break 2000, and some clickers manage to get 2200 somehow, and (other players that dont click but are just bad in general.)
On April 22 2009 06:56 Rostam wrote: But I've seen some ridiculously slow/stupid/terrible people make 2300/2400+ rating (and I don't just mean this season with the absurd rating inflation) simply because of the fact that WoW arena can hinge on so many factors other than skill.
lol yep i was watching some videos of a 2400 paladin that was clicking all his abilities... but i got the feeling it was a good player just proving a point.
On April 22 2009 13:04 stroggos wrote: With WoW the most unfortunate thing is that skill sometimes does not matter. Really good players can sometimes not break 2000, and some clickers manage to get 2200 somehow, and (other players that dont click but are just bad in general.)
Definately agree with this part atleast from my experience. I played WoW casually for a couple month about 1-2 years ago I think during season 2 and 3. I played a Hunter with my friend as a Druid (Back when hunters were pretty bad in arena with Line of Sight issues etc, I don't know how is it now). We made to 1900 ratings in 2s, I definately think we were decent players but eventually I quit because of boredom.
But the point I am trying to make is in some of the matches my friend and I lost, sometimes we honestly felt like we outplayed, out smarted our opponents in every possible way. It really shows that luck is invovled quite a bit in WoW PvP play. It definately takes SOME skill to play WoW, but the skill ceiling is no where near SC.
edit: Which also brings up a good point, IMO the luck involved creates some of the BM in the game. SC community is pretty GM and that is partly because SC requires so much skill overall. Think about it, when you lose in SC there is really no one or nothing to blame but yourself and your own mistakes.
WoW isn't just a grinding machine, there are massive skill variations. BUT it is heavily imbalanced. it is a fun game, and revolutionary. i don't see the need to hate it.
Edit: people love wow not for pvp, but because you can raid end game with 25 other guys, and if someone messes up its gg for all 25 of you, and in this prospect it is much harder than the last 100 Rpgs.
every old rpg nerd is now playing wow, simply because it is the newest rpg, that requires skill and actually has it's difficulties.
seriously that warrior druid team vs the mage warrior team was terrible at playing pvp. Warrior should have sticked on mage not on the other warrior. hamstring+pummels anyone??
anyways read my nickname, wow sucks big time. ps: ive played wow since it first came out and sold my dual warglaive rogue for only 400 euros just because woltk came out meh! could have sold it for 1000+
On April 22 2009 15:13 ffswowsucks wrote: seriously that warrior druid team vs the mage warrior team was terrible at playing pvp. Warrior should have sticked on mage not on the other warrior. hamstring+pummels anyone??
anyways read my nickname, wow sucks big time. ps: ive played wow since it first came out and sold my dual warglaive rogue for only 400 euros just because woltk came out meh! could have sold it for 1000+
Naw, the strat is to spell reflect shatters and intercept the mage whenever the mage goes for a non instant cast, but then switch back to whatever is closest to put out the biggest amount of pressure. Also the druid should have cycloned the mage after the warrior was counterspelled. That druid sucked even more than the warrior. That warrior was pretty much unable to string/pummel because of lol macestun and a crapload of snares, but he should've intervened during that fight, woulda been especially good to intervene some of those sheeps too. :S
the thing about wow is, you can be outplaying people then BAM rune strike for 10,000(average players have around 20,000 health) + scourge strike for 5000. OUTPLAYED.
On April 22 2009 17:34 Rice wrote: the thing about wow is, you can be outplaying people then BAM rune strike for 10,000(average players have around 20,000 health) + scourge strike for 5000. OUTPLAYED.
myself, i'm proud to say i've decided to give up wow to focus on sc/sc2. screw raiding, all guilds care about is gear, thats it. screw pvp, it's not really fun.
WoW and Starcraft aren't really comparable games. It's as easy as that. The 'skill' required in a high level game of wow is taken for granted at a basic Iccup D level of SC play, because you won't get anywhere near decent without that.
It's absurd to even try to make such a comparison, Phyre, I'm afraid you'll have to accept that your coworkers will simply never understand. Do you really think he'll get a glimpse of his own ignorance after you own him effortlessly? More likely, male pride will make him completely blind.
for the ones who played both games: just imagine how long it would take (without any previous knowledge of the game) to reach high lev arena rankings and how long it would take to be able to get to A- on ICCUP (without any previous knowledge of the game). + Show Spoiler +
the one can be accomplished in weeks if you're decent with good combo, reaching A- on ICCUP....
Wow has a skill roof which is ridiculously low, mainly to the 1 second cooldown on stuff, imagine if you were limited to 1 action per second in sc lol (60 apm). It's all about gear I don't think this was ever strongly contested.
On April 23 2009 03:39 Frits wrote: Wow has a skill roof which is ridiculously low, mainly to the 1 second cooldown on stuff, imagine if you were limited to 1 action per second in sc lol (60 apm). It's all about gear I don't think this was ever strongly contested.
Actually, in high level PvP, gear is fairly standardized, since the "best" PvP gear is always going to be the season PvP rewards anyway, which most strong will have long since earned. Of course, this is also a double-edged sword, as it removes one of the points of strategic variation in RPG-based competitive games (e.g. DotA makes use of equipment in such a way thats not unfair, and allows for strategic adjustments).
Mage/warrior wasn't thaaaat bad, I know a team who were 2400+ with that combo in season 1. It just got worse because paladins became so much less common. I played it in season 3 (or 4 maybe) with a friend for a week or two and we got ~2200. Warrior/druid was one of the combos that wasn't too hard to beat, the highlight of that team was when we beat some mind numbingly horrible 2350~ warlock/druid team for an assload of points. Only time I actually ever faced the combo in 2v2 was when I was running warrior/druid in season 4 and we faced a warrior/mage team 5 or 6 times, they won once or twice because I had to burn my trinket to peel and then got shattered while I was mace stunned in berserker stance.
But I mean at the beginning of season 2 I could see it doing really well.
Hey all. After 2 months of waiting the games were finally played. Matchup was TvZ on Python and 2 games were played before he called it quits. 2-0 in my favor. Games were played at the office and I forgot to e-mail the reps to myself so I could post them but rest assured that they will be posted Monday.
Don't expect any amazing play on my part, I'm D/D- at best. Was still very one sided. I just rax/cc'ed and rolled out when I felt like it while he went what looked like 9 pool game 1 and 12 hatch game 2.
On April 22 2009 02:42 daz wrote: if he actually thinks wow requires more skill then SC then there is a 0% chance that he is any good at starcraft, and you will crush him easily. Or he could just be trolling you
I play both WoW and SC and while people who say SC takes more skill are definitely correct, WoW does take more skill than most people give it credit for
On April 22 2009 02:13 stroggos wrote: SC requires alot more raw skill at top level, but WoW requires more twitch and periferal vision.
Also WoW is hardly a grind, Takes about a week to get to level 80, then its working your way up the ladder from there. WoW just sucks because it's imbalanced.
lol, a week if you play 24/7 and have triple rest experience from invite-a-friend, along with hierloom items
if WoW is anything, it's a grind, because once you get to the level max, you just switch from grinding experience to grinding honor (pvp) or grinding instances (pve)