1) sAviOr admits to match-fixing. Hwasin not expected to stand as witness.
sAviOr initially denied any charges, but eventually in the second trial today, admitted to match-fixing. He also withdraw his statements saying he did not force Hwasin to take part.
2) Progaming teams already knew about the match-fixing incidents from December?
The broker, Mr. Park revealed this, saying the coaches and managers somewhat already knew. When asked about Justin not returning to the team after his vacation in December, the manager's response was that after going through his computer, he was certain that Justin had taken part in match-fixing and hence, did not let him back into the team.
It was further revealed that from then on, Mr. Park (I assume it's YellOw[ArnC]) and Justin were investigated by the progamers themselves. This means that their team (Hite) was already aware about the situation long before the actual date that they stated (February).
Mr. Park revealed that he lost his games through intentional bad micro. The games were held on 20th September 2009 and 25th February 2010.
20th Sept 2009 game:
25th February 2010 games (not sure which):
Another game that was held on the 19th of January 2010 was fixed, with Mr. Park telling Hwasin that he'll go 12 hatch and that Hwasin should go proxy 2 rax.
19th January 2010 game:
The two Mr. Parks also revealed that initially, they only participated in non-official matches, but were blackmailed into continuing their participation, when they were threatened to have their deeds exposed to their team. They stated that they only wanted to do "one more game before completely stopped any further participation, without taking in any money".
Prosecutors now hope further investigation will shed more light on this scandal.
Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
I supported Savior and believed in him even when Rekrul first made his thread which brought the whole issue into tl. Even when it was confirmed that he was guilty, I wanted to defend his place in bw history because he rigged the games that he lost, not the games he won which meant his whole reign was legit. He was the man who singlehandedly changed zerg. Even the tactics he used and analysing his thought process we can still use. He was actual probably the one and only progamer that i considered myself a true fan of. Even when he was slumping when bw got a bit boring for me i would check in to see his games hoping to see a spark of his old self. I felt like I met a celebrity when he walked by me in coex on my first live sc game.
I don't see how you could demote someone from bonjwa status for intentionally losing games long after his prime. I'm assuming that's what happened, anyway. I haven't seen anything to the contrary.
I think it's interesting that we are getting these details about blackmail and such. I wonder how that will play out.
On June 24 2010 22:38 Nyxs wrote: Oh well at least he retracted his statement of not being involved in certain ways and just taking the full accusation.
At least? he probably found out that they have proof and testimony from others involved, and that he couldn't keep pulling an OJ on this. Lying only works so far, past a certain point its futile and you have to fall on your sword and hope it doesn't hit anything vital.
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
I supported Savior and believed in him even when Rekrul first made his thread which brought the whole issue into tl. Even when it was confirmed that he was guilty, I wanted to defend his place in bw history because he rigged the games that he lost, not the games he won which meant his whole reign was legit. He was the man who singlehandedly changed zerg. Even the tactics he used and analysing his thought process we can still use. He was actual probably the one and only progamer that i considered myself a true fan of. Even when he was slumping when bw got a bit boring for me i would check in to see his games hoping to see a spark of his old self. I felt like I met a celebrity when he walked by me in coex on my first live sc game.
Its heartbreaking man, I personally never respected a progamer more than MJY, watching him in is prime was tantalising.
On June 24 2010 22:38 Nyxs wrote: Oh well at least he retracted his statement of not being involved in certain ways and just taking the full accusation.
Would have been better if he didn't lie in the first place...would have been better if he didn't blackmail and match fix in the first place...
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
Because sAviOr wasnt a player, sAviOr was a god. the OGN i believe commentators even called him a god..
but really, the players were blackmailed into doing it? thats completly different imo..
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
I don't know if this guy is trolling but seriously? The guy revolutionized zerg play - of course there will be fans. Myself included..
No one cares if you didn't like him. Keep it to yourself..
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
Because sAviOr wasnt a player, sAviOr was a god. the OGN i believe commentators even called him a god..
but really, the players were blackmailed into doing it? thats completly different imo..
They started by their own, but when they wanted to quit they were blackmailed. Which was to be expected lol
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
Because sAviOr wasnt a player, sAviOr was a god. the OGN i believe commentators even called him a god..
but really, the players were blackmailed into doing it? thats completly different imo..
They started by their own, but when they wanted to quit they were blackmailed. Which was to be expected lol
excatly. The fact that they were blackmailed later on doesn't lessen the fact that it was their own decision to rig games the first time. I don't think its a completely different story that they were blackmailed. If they were really sorry the first time they would have confessed before this whole issue occured and not continue rigging games.
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
Because sAviOr wasnt a player, sAviOr was a god. the OGN i believe commentators even called him a god..
but really, the players were blackmailed into doing it? thats completly different imo..
They started by their own, but when they wanted to quit they were blackmailed. Which was to be expected lol
excatly. The fact that they were blackmailed later on doesn't lessen the fact that it was their own decision to rig games the first time. I don't think its a completely different story that they were blackmailed.
well if they just wanted to quit because they were being blackmailed, then most likely they would have continued if they werent, didnt think of it that way. so they get no pity from me
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
Because sAviOr wasnt a player, sAviOr was a god. the OGN i believe commentators even called him a god..
but really, the players were blackmailed into doing it? thats completly different imo..
They started by their own, but when they wanted to quit they were blackmailed. Which was to be expected lol
Yeah they weren't blackmailed from the outset :p. They could then be considered victims of extortion. But it's obviously sad that they found themselves in a whirlpool, sinking further and further even if they had wanted to get out.
I personally really liked the last Hwasin interview I'd read. And after some fpl following, I also became a minor tybe-b fan. Other than that, I was already a big fan of UpMaGiC. So in that regard, I'm sad this happened. Hope they get some leniency from the judge and they can get on with their lives. They don't deserve to have unending consquences for a selfish, stupid mistake they made as young men.
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
I supported Savior and believed in him even when Rekrul first made his thread which brought the whole issue into tl. Even when it was confirmed that he was guilty, I wanted to defend his place in bw history because he rigged the games that he lost, not the games he won which meant his whole reign was legit. He was the man who singlehandedly changed zerg. Even the tactics he used and analysing his thought process we can still use. He was actual probably the one and only progamer that i considered myself a true fan of. Even when he was slumping when bw got a bit boring for me i would check in to see his games hoping to see a spark of his old self. I felt like I met a celebrity when he walked by me in coex on my first live sc game.
This sums up my thoughts exactly. The first post (edit: what ils quoted) is a bit silly, since in hindsight you can accuse and assume alot of things and not be called wrong, so therefore you are seen as right... well sAviOr and Boxer got me into starcraft, and the only reason i care he's involved is because he's retired and i can't see him go through survivor groups, just to try get into MSL. Watching those made my weeks, even if he lost.
When you see this and think back to when FBH danced his dance around Savior it's sort of funny cos what Savior did is nothing more than theft and fraud. And he got danced around by a crazy Korean.
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
I supported Savior and believed in him even when Rekrul first made his thread which brought the whole issue into tl. Even when it was confirmed that he was guilty, I wanted to defend his place in bw history because he rigged the games that he lost, not the games he won which meant his whole reign was legit. He was the man who singlehandedly changed zerg. Even the tactics he used and analysing his thought process we can still use. He was actual probably the one and only progamer that i considered myself a true fan of. Even when he was slumping when bw got a bit boring for me i would check in to see his games hoping to see a spark of his old self. I felt like I met a celebrity when he walked by me in coex on my first live sc game.
Its heartbreaking man, I personally never respected a progamer more than MJY, watching him in is prime was tantalising.
so true ILS. i almost didn't want to believe it when i first heard it. i even wanted to defend him when people were trashtalking, even thou i knew he deserved it
I 100% agree with match fixing. I am 100% serious, and i have not lost one drop of respect for any of these players. Savior is still amazing, and so is hwasin, yellow, go.go and the rest. <3 them forever.
On June 24 2010 23:52 29 fps wrote: the luxury vs hwasin game is probably the saddest one... both players were in on it from there start.
I remember watching that game and going what the fuck is this bullshit. That was probably the dumbest game ever, from Lux doing stupid shit against scouted proxy 2 rax, and Hwasin misplacing the bunker at the nat. I watched it and was like "the fuck is this?"
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
really hating the new atittude of 'bw is dead'
its still alive dudes.
Brood War is still here; let's not be overly pessimistic.
On June 25 2010 00:57 Misrah wrote: I 100% agree with match fixing. I am 100% serious, and i have not lost one drop of respect for any of these players. Savior is still amazing, and so is hwasin, yellow, go.go and the rest. <3 them forever.
Oh, come on.
In any case, I don't see why this would make Savior less of a bonjwa if you thought he was before. Doesn't it just mean that he dominated? Not that he dominated while being an honorable player or trustworthy team member?
I liked savior for a time, but then I kinda had a bad feeling about him. I could tell that he had done something that he didn't want anyone to know and I just didn't even watch more than a few games of him(some where he faced Jaedong and some games where he faced Bisu) and whenever I saw his face I felt really confused. I never understood until this year what it was that hurt him so bad. He did a stupid mistake and was too afraid to take the blame and be a brave progamer instead of the scared, forced, frightened, black-mailed, and now trialed former progamer he has become.
How does this scandal somehow make Savior's achievements null? Savior is still the one that made zerg what it is today (with his 3 hatch play). Does this scandal somehow make that fact null, or what? Albeit, it is a bit disappointing that you would tell your fans that you will rise back to the top after being destroyed by Bisu and THEN intentionally taking part in this match-fixing scandal. However, this doesn't mean everything that he has achieved holds no significance and that fans should immediately think anything he has done doesnt mean shit, not in my eyes anyway.
Savior will always be a great zerg player and someone I respect in the context of how he plays the game.
How does this scandal somehow make Savior's achievements null? Savior is still the one that made zerg what it is today (with his 3 hatch play). Does this scandal somehow make that fact null, or what? Albeit, it is a bit disappointing that you would tell your fans that you will rise back to the top after being destroyed by Bisu and THEN intentionally taking part in this match-fixing scandal. However, this doesn't mean everything that he has achieved holds no significance and that fans should immediately think anything he has done doesnt mean shit, not in my eyes anyway.
Savior will always be a great zerg player and someone I respect in the context of how he plays the game.
I don't know about you guys and who you like and dislike in sports. But let's say Michael Jordan was found to be a match-fixer etc in basketball later on in his career. Let's say Tiger Woods...oh...
Let's say Rafael Nadal was a match fixer later on in his career. Let's say Roger Federer and Pete Sampras fixed that 2001 Wimbledon 4th round match (where Federer beat Sampras in 5).
Let's say Lin Dan fixed all the badminton matches he's been involved in in the past 2 years.
Let's say Pele (or Christiano Ronaldo or whoever is your soccer hero) fixed all the soccer matches he (they) was (were) involved in in the last couple of years of his (their) career(s).
Let's say etc etc.
Wouldn't their legacy be forever tainted? Would you ever be able to trust what they did and didn't do? Sure, they may have gone on some amazing winning streaks and done some amazing stuff...but who would really know if the match they were playing in was REAL? What if all matches, or the most important ones, were all fixed?
All I'm saying is that integrity is lost. And we'll never know for sure when that integrity is lost.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll get the odd person being really unhappy with this post, but I'm just making a point. I personally like Roger Federer a lot. If he was found guilty of match fixing (even not important matches), it would severely put a dent in how I "feel" about him. Sure, objectively, his physical play is arguably the best ever, but everything he would have ever done would also arguably be tainted etc. Just some food for thought. Or not for many people out there who are just able to brush it off easily. These people would make good lawyers or simply good at stating opinions.
I think for a lot of people it isn't even about the results - the fact of the matter is that MJY not only got so many people into BW, but also had legions of fans thinking "I wanna be like savior". Now, all we have to think about is "I looked up to this guy and wanted to be like him, and he turned out like this?".
It's just gutting when someone you respected and thought of as a sort of role model shows up to be a match fixer.
On June 24 2010 22:17 ssj114 wrote: Unbelievable. Starcraft 1 is going out with a bang.
By the way, who here supported savior? I never liked him much, so I don't care. But I swear half of teamliquid were half way up his...and what not. Some even claimed that savior was the main reason they got interested in starcraft in the first place. This must hurt. Right?
i liked him but it doesnt really hurt, though that might be cause i stopped fanaticaly following bw progaming 2 years ago and i dont really care anymore. even with this, i'll remember him for the awesome force that he was in his prime.
On June 25 2010 19:43 dmfg wrote: I think for a lot of people it isn't even about the results - the fact of the matter is that MJY not only got so many people into BW, but also had legions of fans thinking "I wanna be like savior". Now, all we have to think about is "I looked up to this guy and wanted to be like him, and he turned out like this?".
It's just gutting when someone you respected and thought of as a sort of role model shows up to be a match fixer.
That's exactly right. But it also puts a huge dent on the results and the amazing play. Who knows which match was fixed and which wasn't. Sometimes fixed matches can yield some amazing play.
Anyway, I don't care much at all. Now if NaDa was found to be a match-fixer, then I would care more.
Kinda sad that the other players were forced to continue their match fixing even if they didn't want to. I feel sorry for them especially since they are now banned from ever participating in the pro scene. I still want to see Lux and Hwasin play again.
On June 25 2010 19:43 dmfg wrote: I think for a lot of people it isn't even about the results - the fact of the matter is that MJY not only got so many people into BW, but also had legions of fans thinking "I wanna be like savior". Now, all we have to think about is "I looked up to this guy and wanted to be like him, and he turned out like this?".
It's just gutting when someone you respected and thought of as a sort of role model shows up to be a match fixer.
That's exactly right. But it also puts a huge dent on the results and the amazing play. Who knows which match was fixed and which wasn't. Sometimes fixed matches can yield some amazing play.
Anyway, I don't care much at all. Now if NaDa was found to be a match-fixer, then I would care more.
Unless you are willing to implicate all the major opponents he faced over the years, I really see no reason to worry about the true nature of his achievements. This whole thing isn't really about people winning, it's about people losing.
And anyway, these guys wouldn't have really made any money throwing games unless the opponents they lost to were considered underdogs.
They haven't really tainted their own legacies by doing this, in my opinion. They've tainted the scene. But I don't care much about the scene anyway since half of the stuff that goes on might as well be a coin flip.
On June 24 2010 22:18 ssj114 wrote: Can savior still be considered a bonjwa?
Perhaps Savior could be considered The Anti-Bonjwa? Although he bears the likeness of a True Bonjwa, his Build Orders were not Pure and his Hwaiting Spirit soiled by the seeds of corruption. In the end he turned out to be a Great Deceiver.
Although I admit that's a bit harsh language towards a kid...
I dont think savior's legacy is tainted. For me he is two different people, sAviOr, who crushed everyone, and Ma Jae Yoon, who accepted the match fixing money.
On June 24 2010 22:18 ssj114 wrote: Can savior still be considered a bonjwa?
Perhaps Savior could be considered The Anti-Bonjwa? Although he bears the likeness of a True Bonjwa, his Build Orders were not Pure and his Hwaiting Spirit soiled by the seeds of corruption. In the end he turned out to be a Great Deceiver.
Although I admit that's a bit harsh language towards a kid...
he didnt start fixing till well after he started slumping..
On June 25 2010 19:21 ssj114 wrote: I don't know about you guys and who you like and dislike in sports. But let's say Michael Jordan was found to be a match-fixer etc in basketball later on in his career. Let's say Tiger Woods...oh...
Let's say Rafael Nadal was a match fixer later on in his career. Let's say Roger Federer and Pete Sampras fixed that 2001 Wimbledon 4th round match (where Federer beat Sampras in 5).
Let's say Lin Dan fixed all the badminton matches he's been involved in in the past 2 years.
Let's say Pele (or Christiano Ronaldo or whoever is your soccer hero) fixed all the soccer matches he (they) was (were) involved in in the last couple of years of his (their) career(s).
Let's say etc etc.
Wouldn't their legacy be forever tainted? Would you ever be able to trust what they did and didn't do? Sure, they may have gone on some amazing winning streaks and done some amazing stuff...but who would really know if the match they were playing in was REAL? What if all matches, or the most important ones, were all fixed?
All I'm saying is that integrity is lost. And we'll never know for sure when that integrity is lost.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll get the odd person being really unhappy with this post, but I'm just making a point. I personally like Roger Federer a lot. If he was found guilty of match fixing (even not important matches), it would severely put a dent in how I "feel" about him. Sure, objectively, his physical play is arguably the best ever, but everything he would have ever done would also arguably be tainted etc. Just some food for thought. Or not for many people out there who are just able to brush it off easily. These people would make good lawyers or simply good at stating opinions.
rofl, I may be that one unhappy person. I find this post much more reasonable than your first few questions on the front page which i find ridiculous. rofl
Of course Savior would be a bonjwa, to me this is like Time magazine being told that if they don't issue a recall and burn all the issues of the magazine with Hitler on the cover they will face massive consequences.
Obviously it's not the same thing however I do think there are massive distinctions to be made between obvious violations of trust, rule of law and the products of the prior and present.
So we come to, is savior's legacy tainted? Obviously this is a matter of what his legacy is from a personal perspective. For me, no. I watched his games live when he was pouring his soul into the game and it was truly something special. That will never be tainted and I don't see how it could be for anyone that experienced those games in that light.
So it should follow that someone who didn't even know what race savior was 6 months ago will have a difference personal perspective on savior's legacy.
I suppose I just mean that I don't think theres anything really to think about here. You experience life and you form opinions on your experiences. It should be common sense that the present doesn't change the past, only your perspective of it.
On June 25 2010 19:21 ssj114 wrote: I don't know about you guys and who you like and dislike in sports. But let's say Michael Jordan was found to be a match-fixer etc in basketball later on in his career. Let's say Tiger Woods...oh...
Let's say Rafael Nadal was a match fixer later on in his career. Let's say Roger Federer and Pete Sampras fixed that 2001 Wimbledon 4th round match (where Federer beat Sampras in 5).
Let's say Lin Dan fixed all the badminton matches he's been involved in in the past 2 years.
Let's say Pele (or Christiano Ronaldo or whoever is your soccer hero) fixed all the soccer matches he (they) was (were) involved in in the last couple of years of his (their) career(s).
Let's say etc etc.
Wouldn't their legacy be forever tainted? Would you ever be able to trust what they did and didn't do? Sure, they may have gone on some amazing winning streaks and done some amazing stuff...but who would really know if the match they were playing in was REAL? What if all matches, or the most important ones, were all fixed?
All I'm saying is that integrity is lost. And we'll never know for sure when that integrity is lost.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll get the odd person being really unhappy with this post, but I'm just making a point. I personally like Roger Federer a lot. If he was found guilty of match fixing (even not important matches), it would severely put a dent in how I "feel" about him. Sure, objectively, his physical play is arguably the best ever, but everything he would have ever done would also arguably be tainted etc. Just some food for thought. Or not for many people out there who are just able to brush it off easily. These people would make good lawyers or simply good at stating opinions.
rofl, I may be that one unhappy person. I find this post much more reasonable than your first few questions on the front page which i find ridiculous. rofl
Of course Savior would be a bonjwa, to me this is like Time magazine being told that if they don't issue a recall and burn all the issues of the magazine with Hitler on the cover they will face massive consequences.
Obviously it's not the same thing however I do think there are massive distinctions to be made between obvious violations of trust, rule of law and the products of the prior and present.
So we come to, is savior's legacy tainted? Obviously this is a matter of what his legacy is from a personal perspective. For me, no. I watched his games live when he was pouring his soul into the game and it was truly something special. That will never be tainted and I don't see how it could be for anyone that experienced those games in that light.
So it should follow that someone who didn't even know what race savior was 6 months ago will have a difference personal perspective on savior's legacy.
I suppose I just mean that I don't think theres anything really to think about here. You experience life and you form opinions on your experiences. It should be common sense that the present doesn't change the past, only your perspective of it.
Perhaps I'm bias, but as I said, I don't care about savior much. Sure, I watched in disgust (with underlying admiration) as he constantly thrashed one of my favourite players iloveoov 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0. That was the near the beginning of his reign. Following this, he just continued thrashing everyone for the next 12 months or so.
Perhaps he is like Nadal for me. I don't like Nadal much, even though on clay, he is the greatest player of all time, no contest. The things he is able to do on clay is simply amazing. But I just generally dislike him (perhaps his mannerism on court gets to me I don't know). If he is found to be a match fixer later on in his career, I would start questioning the games when he really put effort in and when he didn't. I would start questioning other aspects of integrity, like whether he used performance-enhancing drugs (sure this doesn't really apply in Starcraft but I'm just trying to make a point) etc.
The same goes with savior. Sure, he appeared to be an amazing player at his peak, but who knows what really went on behind the scenes. We'll never know exactly when his integrity started breaking down.
On June 25 2010 19:21 ssj114 wrote: I don't know about you guys and who you like and dislike in sports. But let's say Michael Jordan was found to be a match-fixer etc in basketball later on in his career. Let's say Tiger Woods...oh...
Let's say Rafael Nadal was a match fixer later on in his career. Let's say Roger Federer and Pete Sampras fixed that 2001 Wimbledon 4th round match (where Federer beat Sampras in 5).
Let's say Lin Dan fixed all the badminton matches he's been involved in in the past 2 years.
Let's say Pele (or Christiano Ronaldo or whoever is your soccer hero) fixed all the soccer matches he (they) was (were) involved in in the last couple of years of his (their) career(s).
Let's say etc etc.
Wouldn't their legacy be forever tainted? Would you ever be able to trust what they did and didn't do? Sure, they may have gone on some amazing winning streaks and done some amazing stuff...but who would really know if the match they were playing in was REAL? What if all matches, or the most important ones, were all fixed?
All I'm saying is that integrity is lost. And we'll never know for sure when that integrity is lost.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll get the odd person being really unhappy with this post, but I'm just making a point. I personally like Roger Federer a lot. If he was found guilty of match fixing (even not important matches), it would severely put a dent in how I "feel" about him. Sure, objectively, his physical play is arguably the best ever, but everything he would have ever done would also arguably be tainted etc. Just some food for thought. Or not for many people out there who are just able to brush it off easily. These people would make good lawyers or simply good at stating opinions.
rofl, I may be that one unhappy person. I find this post much more reasonable than your first few questions on the front page which i find ridiculous. rofl
Of course Savior would be a bonjwa, to me this is like Time magazine being told that if they don't issue a recall and burn all the issues of the magazine with Hitler on the cover they will face massive consequences.
Obviously it's not the same thing however I do think there are massive distinctions to be made between obvious violations of trust, rule of law and the products of the prior and present.
So we come to, is savior's legacy tainted? Obviously this is a matter of what his legacy is from a personal perspective. For me, no. I watched his games live when he was pouring his soul into the game and it was truly something special. That will never be tainted and I don't see how it could be for anyone that experienced those games in that light.
So it should follow that someone who didn't even know what race savior was 6 months ago will have a difference personal perspective on savior's legacy.
I suppose I just mean that I don't think theres anything really to think about here. You experience life and you form opinions on your experiences. It should be common sense that the present doesn't change the past, only your perspective of it.
Perhaps I'm bias, but as I said, I don't care about savior much. Sure, I watched in disgust (with underlying admiration) as he constantly thrashed one of my favourite players iloveoov 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0. That was the near the beginning of his reign. Following this, he just continued thrashing everyone for the next 12 months or so.
Perhaps he is like Nadal for me. I don't like Nadal much, even though on clay, he is the greatest player of all time, no contest. The things he is able to do on clay is simply amazing. But I just generally dislike him (perhaps his mannerism on court gets to me I don't know). If he is found to be a match fixer later on in his career, I would start questioning the games when he really put effort in and when he didn't. I would start questioning other aspects of integrity, like whether he used performance-enhancing drugs (sure this doesn't really apply in Starcraft but I'm just trying to make a point) etc.
The same goes with savior. Sure, he appeared to be an amazing player at his peak, but who knows what really went on behind the scenes. We'll never know exactly when his integrity started breaking down.
But he only got loses out of the match-fixing (as far as everyone knows), so all his wins were legit, and his reign was real. You can't really question that.
On June 25 2010 19:21 ssj114 wrote: I don't know about you guys and who you like and dislike in sports. But let's say Michael Jordan was found to be a match-fixer etc in basketball later on in his career. Let's say Tiger Woods...oh...
Let's say Rafael Nadal was a match fixer later on in his career. Let's say Roger Federer and Pete Sampras fixed that 2001 Wimbledon 4th round match (where Federer beat Sampras in 5).
Let's say Lin Dan fixed all the badminton matches he's been involved in in the past 2 years.
Let's say Pele (or Christiano Ronaldo or whoever is your soccer hero) fixed all the soccer matches he (they) was (were) involved in in the last couple of years of his (their) career(s).
Let's say etc etc.
Wouldn't their legacy be forever tainted? Would you ever be able to trust what they did and didn't do? Sure, they may have gone on some amazing winning streaks and done some amazing stuff...but who would really know if the match they were playing in was REAL? What if all matches, or the most important ones, were all fixed?
All I'm saying is that integrity is lost. And we'll never know for sure when that integrity is lost.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll get the odd person being really unhappy with this post, but I'm just making a point. I personally like Roger Federer a lot. If he was found guilty of match fixing (even not important matches), it would severely put a dent in how I "feel" about him. Sure, objectively, his physical play is arguably the best ever, but everything he would have ever done would also arguably be tainted etc. Just some food for thought. Or not for many people out there who are just able to brush it off easily. These people would make good lawyers or simply good at stating opinions.
rofl, I may be that one unhappy person. I find this post much more reasonable than your first few questions on the front page which i find ridiculous. rofl
Of course Savior would be a bonjwa, to me this is like Time magazine being told that if they don't issue a recall and burn all the issues of the magazine with Hitler on the cover they will face massive consequences.
Obviously it's not the same thing however I do think there are massive distinctions to be made between obvious violations of trust, rule of law and the products of the prior and present.
So we come to, is savior's legacy tainted? Obviously this is a matter of what his legacy is from a personal perspective. For me, no. I watched his games live when he was pouring his soul into the game and it was truly something special. That will never be tainted and I don't see how it could be for anyone that experienced those games in that light.
So it should follow that someone who didn't even know what race savior was 6 months ago will have a difference personal perspective on savior's legacy.
I suppose I just mean that I don't think theres anything really to think about here. You experience life and you form opinions on your experiences. It should be common sense that the present doesn't change the past, only your perspective of it.
Perhaps I'm bias, but as I said, I don't care about savior much. Sure, I watched in disgust (with underlying admiration) as he constantly thrashed one of my favourite players iloveoov 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0. That was the near the beginning of his reign. Following this, he just continued thrashing everyone for the next 12 months or so.
Perhaps he is like Nadal for me. I don't like Nadal much, even though on clay, he is the greatest player of all time, no contest. The things he is able to do on clay is simply amazing. But I just generally dislike him (perhaps his mannerism on court gets to me I don't know). If he is found to be a match fixer later on in his career, I would start questioning the games when he really put effort in and when he didn't. I would start questioning other aspects of integrity, like whether he used performance-enhancing drugs (sure this doesn't really apply in Starcraft but I'm just trying to make a point) etc.
The same goes with savior. Sure, he appeared to be an amazing player at his peak, but who knows what really went on behind the scenes. We'll never know exactly when his integrity started breaking down.
But he only got loses out of the match-fixing (as far as everyone knows), so all his wins were legit, and his reign was real. You can't really question that.
That's exactly the issue though (I bolded the point I'm trying to make). Sure, it's very likely all his wins were legit, but we'll never know for sure. Given that he's tainted himself as a human being in the very game we all love etc, perhaps we should be questioning it. Of course, those who think he is/was a God would think otherwise.
ssj114 does have a point - if Savior was willing enough to throw games, did he ever bother to buy replays? He wasn't that great (still awesome but still lost fairly regularly) in proleague but fucking amazing in late series matches. Before those late series matches he'd lose fairly often to scrubs and took forever to get into an OSL.
I do wonder if there was a market for selling progamer replays? A lot of players are abnormally good at the whole "mind games" thing. Flash did mention a while ago somebody (Luxury?) was leaking his replays and guys like Boxer are asking for Starcraft 2 to remove the option to save replays of games in order to preserve build orders and timings (which was really confusing in that interview since VODs tell you pretty much everything anyway).
Of course his legacy is forever tainted. Are you kidding me? I lost every ounce of respect I had for him, especially after he lied about it after getting accused. His achievements don't even really matter to me anymore. He will forever be a filthy cheater before a winner. He cheated, he lied, and he deserves nothing from us fans. This isn't even like the Tiger Woods scandal; Woods didn't interfere with the game of golf itself, and even though you could argue that he brought down the sports with him because he was really the icon of it, his mistakes in personal life and the sport did not directly have to do with each other. Ma Jae Yoon, on the other hand...
How can anyone still like this guy? It's disgusting to think how selfish this bastard is. He doesn't give a shit about StarCraft as a sport that we love, he doesn't give a shit about his fans, and most importantly, he doesn't give a shit about his integrity and honor. To buy himself a brand new diamond watch and a pair of shoes, he betrayed everything fans cheer for. It's mind-boggling.
There's no denying that he was a great player. Perhaps one of the best to ever play. But it doesn't matter, man. His integrity is lost. His legacy? I will remember him as that guy who cheated and lied, not the guy who won titles. It's a shame that a guy like him is called a "bonjwa" of StarCraft.
Yeah what the fuck is wrong with people saying he's still a bonjwa, he still changed the game... Probably same bandwagoning people who were filled to the brim with excitement when TL randomly announced its zero tolerance for hackers.
On June 25 2010 05:36 3FFA wrote: I liked savior for a time, but then I kinda had a bad feeling about him. I could tell that he had done something that he didn't want anyone to know and I just didn't even watch more than a few games of him(some where he faced Jaedong and some games where he faced Bisu) and whenever I saw his face I felt really confused. I never understood until this year what it was that hurt him so bad. He did a stupid mistake and was too afraid to take the blame and be a brave progamer instead of the scared, forced, frightened, black-mailed, and now trialed former progamer he has become.
Yes, great hindsight there.
On June 26 2010 10:07 OneOther wrote: Of course his legacy is forever tainted. Are you kidding me? I lost every ounce of respect I had for him, especially after he lied about it after getting accused. His achievements don't even really matter to me anymore. He will forever be a filthy cheater before a winner. He cheated, he lied, and he deserves nothing from us fans. This isn't even like the Tiger Woods scandal; Woods didn't interfere with the game of golf itself, and even though you could argue that he brought down the sports with him because he was really the icon of it, his mistakes in personal life and the sport did not directly have to do with each other. Ma Jae Yoon, on the other hand...
How can anyone still like this guy? It's disgusting to think how selfish this bastard is. He doesn't give a shit about StarCraft as a sport that we love, he doesn't give a shit about his fans, and most importantly, he doesn't give a shit about his integrity and honor. To buy himself a brand new diamond watch and a pair of shoes, he betrayed everything fans cheer for. It's mind-boggling.
There's no denying that he was a great player. Perhaps one of the best to ever play. But it doesn't matter, man. His integrity is lost. His legacy? I will remember him as that guy who cheated and lied, not the guy who won titles. It's a shame that a guy like him is called a "bonjwa" of StarCraft.
Fuck this guy.
WELL said. Don't even know why people still argue. And please, purge everyone who mentions 2009. Holy shit, worst meme ever.
The first games of professional starcraft I ever saw were at Blizzcon 2007. I'm glad I rooted for Nal_Ra in the finals now. I have some sympathy for the players who cheated, considering the shitty conditions they live under, but it doesn't extend to Savior. He should have just retired. Even had he fixed his own matches, I would've been pretty alright iwth it, but forcing others.
On June 26 2010 10:23 OneOther wrote: It makes no sense to me how some people are saying his legacy isn't tainted...I'm pretty speechless lol
Probably because they don't care about the starcraft scene as much as you or other hardcore fans. So they appreciate his skills and don't care that he was ruining the esports scene.
On June 26 2010 10:23 OneOther wrote: It makes no sense to me how some people are saying his legacy isn't tainted...I'm pretty speechless lol
Probably because they don't care about the starcraft scene as much as you or other hardcore fans. So they appreciate his skills and don't care that he was ruining the esports scene.
I mean, I can appreciate his skills as well but saying that his legacy is intact after all this is nonsense
On June 26 2010 10:07 OneOther wrote: Of course his legacy is forever tainted. Are you kidding me? I lost every ounce of respect I had for him, especially after he lied about it after getting accused. His achievements don't even really matter to me anymore. He will forever be a filthy cheater before a winner. He cheated, he lied, and he deserves nothing from us fans. This isn't even like the Tiger Woods scandal; Woods didn't interfere with the game of golf itself, and even though you could argue that he brought down the sports with him because he was really the icon of it, his mistakes in personal life and the sport did not directly have to do with each other. Ma Jae Yoon, on the other hand...
How can anyone still like this guy? It's disgusting to think how selfish this bastard is. He doesn't give a shit about StarCraft as a sport that we love, he doesn't give a shit about his fans, and most importantly, he doesn't give a shit about his integrity and honor. To buy himself a brand new diamond watch and a pair of shoes, he betrayed everything fans cheer for. It's mind-boggling.
There's no denying that he was a great player. Perhaps one of the best to ever play. But it doesn't matter, man. His integrity is lost. His legacy? I will remember him as that guy who cheated and lied, not the guy who won titles. It's a shame that a guy like him is called a "bonjwa" of StarCraft.
Fuck this guy.
Excellent post. For anyone to think that Savior belongs in the same sentence or breath as people who truly cared and fostered esports like BoxeR, Ra, NaDa, etc. is ridiculous. Savior is a piece of shit.
The finals of this MSL is not betting related but its still fixed :O, why has no one reacted on it? :/
Shut the fuck up.
On June 26 2010 10:14 Ack1027 wrote: Yeah what the fuck is wrong with people saying he's still a bonjwa, he still changed the game... Probably same bandwagoning people who were filled to the brim with excitement when TL randomly announced its zero tolerance for hackers.
MJY should be forgotten, fast.
It's hard to forget him since the basic foundations of ZvT is still fundamentally the same as when he devised it. Like it or not his legacy in the game has forever been embedded in the way Zerg players play. We don't need to respect the man or not to recognize his influence on the game even when he no longer plays. You don't judge an artist's work on the character of the artist. Heidegger was one of the greatest philosophers of the recent past regardless of how much of an anti-Semite he was or how much he supported the Nazis. Are we going to decry Stravinsky's art due to his unabashed support of fascism?
Okay, we can say that sAviOr was a great player who revolutionized the race of Zerg. Nobody can take that away from him. But more importantly, like I said, he is a selfish prick who harmed the e-Sports scene in an unprecedented way, betrayed his fans/the beloved game by cheating, lied to everyone who cares about him that he was innocent, and sold his integrity for what it's worth. All for a couple thousand bucks and a new pair of shoes. You also can't change that.
And I'm not trying to. The thing is, there's just so much knee-jerk reactions coming from tons and tons of people here against Savior because of this. The title of "bonjwa" came from the prowess he had over the game, not over his moral character. He's a fuckup and he was rightly banned from the game but that still doesn't change that he was one of the most important players in the history of the game. He is arguably only second to iloveoov when it comes to the development of the game.
Yes, he is. Nobody said he wasn't. My point is, he will always be remembered as a cheater/liar and someone who cared about nothing except himself, but also happened to be a great, influential player. Not a great player who cheated. That's his legacy.
Really? That's just your own view then. Savior as the player will come before me when I think about BW the game. And I am sure there will be many others who will remember Savior primarily as the artist, not the asshole.
Uh, no, it's not my own view and the order doesn't really matter. That's how he's perceived in Korea, based on Netizen reactions and what they are saying. And also for a lot of people who care about the game and its future. What are you even arguing for? I agreed with what you were saying from the beginning and you just repeated yourself for the last three posts that he was a great/influential player. Okay. I even said that in my very first post.
The order does matter. When I think of BW the game then the personal character of each player comes second to how they play the game. When we talk about how strategy developed in the game we're going to discuss players in how they played the game, not what they did in their personal lives. When we discuss how much of a change Jaedong brought to ZvZ throughout his career we're going to be talking about his gameplay, not how good his dancing is or whether or not he's a cheapskate or not. Regardless of the severity of Savior's misgivings I'm going to continue looking back at his games from the viewpoint of the advancement of the game in strategy and tactics, not his immorality. Netizens are the kings of knee-jerk reactions anyway, and it still doesn't change that it's the view of individuals in the end. I've seen a lot of people still put Savior the player before Savior the match fixer when it comes to how they view his past on this site as well. It is your own view regardless of how the majority of any community reacts. To put it as if your view is the objective and the truth and not of an opinion is disingenuous at best.
The order doesn't matter. People can put varying emphasis on what he did in terms of harming the game and the scene. That's fine. It comes down to what individuals care about more. I am willing to give him credit for what he did as a player - I repeat, he was a great player - but I view players as more than just robots who click buttons. The fact that he doesn't care about his fans, the game, and his integrity is a big deal to me. And it should be for all fans. I am okay with you putting his achievements/skills higher than what he did. It will still always be a part of him, and that's just who he is. From the very beginning, I was arguing against people who were saying that his legacy isn't tainted. Thanks for proving my point. The "order" may be dependent on what you value more but ultimately this will haunt him forever.
Also, don't fucking act like we are talking about some stupid, irrelevant personal life stuff. We are talking about how he treated his fans and the game that they love. No, I don't give a shit how many chicks he hooks up with at clubs or what he does in his free time. But I happen to care when this selfish dick betrays everything for a pair of shoes. Stop trying to separate the two. sAviOr the StarCraft player was a revolutionary player but also the StarCraft player who said fuck you to his fans and the game that made him so successful. This isn't some personal life bullshit.
This will be my last post in this thread. I have said everything I wanted to here.
On June 26 2010 14:04 OneOther wrote: The order doesn't matter. People can put varying emphasis on what he did in terms of harming the game and the scene. That's fine. It comes down to what individuals care about more. I am willing to give him credit for what he did as a player - I repeat, he was a great player - but I view players as more than just robots who click buttons. The fact that he doesn't care about his fans, the game, and his integrity is a big deal to me. And it should be for all fans. I am okay with you putting his achievements/skills higher than what he did. It will still always be a part of him, and that's just who he is. From the very beginning, I was arguing against people who were saying that his legacy isn't tainted. Thanks for proving my point. The "order" may be dependent on what you value more but ultimately this will haunt him forever.
Also, don't fucking act like we are talking about some stupid, irrelevant personal life stuff. We are talking about how he treated his fans and the game that they love. No, I don't give a shit how many chicks he hooks up with at clubs or what he does in his free time. But I happen to care when this selfish dick betrays everything for a pair of shoes. Stop trying to separate the two. sAviOr the StarCraft player was a revolutionary player but also the StarCraft player who said fuck you to his fans and the game that made him so successful. This isn't some personal life bullshit.
This will be my last post in this thread. I have said everything I wanted to here.
i think koreasilver is taking offense to your use of opinion as fact; his legacy IS, etc. etc., when it boils down to his "legacy" meaning different things to different people. for instance, you mention how you "view players as more than just robots who click buttons" while some other fan may appreciate their mechanics far more than the progamers as television personalities. i personally agree that his image is ruined and personally believe that his actions, in total, actually take away from his achievements in the game (because of its negative effects on esports), but it just felt like you were arguing over silver's head.
i know you won't respond to this, but just to throw it out there
On June 26 2010 13:16 OneOther wrote: Yes, he is. Nobody said he wasn't. My point is, he will always be remembered as a cheater/liar and someone who cared about nothing except himself, but also happened to be a great, influential player. Not a great player who cheated. That's his legacy.
Savior is baller.
Edit: Also, stop trying to pass off your opinions as fact. I will always remember Savior as a great player and a genius, and so will many, many other people.
this thread is so sad. although it is for sure the end of the man whole inspired so many to sit down with mouse in hand. I still see him like i used too, or do my best to keep it that way. sure he fucked up, but all said and done he is still one of the greatest to play the game. Don't let one mistake ruin all that he did for progaming.
On June 26 2010 13:16 OneOther wrote: Yes, he is. Nobody said he wasn't. My point is, he will always be remembered as a cheater/liar and someone who cared about nothing except himself, but also happened to be a great, influential player. Not a great player who cheated. That's his legacy.
Savior is baller.
Edit: Also, stop trying to pass off your opinions as fact. I will always remember Savior as a great player and a genius, and so will many, many other people.
Lol damn you really have to make me break my promise. First, you don't even understand what my argument was to begin with and you jump in to tell me what I shouldn't do. Look, the only reason I posted in this thread to begin with was that some people claimed his legacy took no damage at all. I argued against that and said people will put different emphasis on his cheating/lying, but what he did will be remembered further down the road. Some people probably don't care, others care a lot. It doesn't matter, it's still a huge part of sAvior's career as a progamer. Getting banned from the league after lying to the public about his cheating won't all of sudden be forgotten from our community. Maybe some individuals like you will forget it, if you don't care at all about the god damn game and the scene, but not from his history as a StarCraft player. Just because you decide to use selective memory and forget what he did, that doesn't change anything about how the community as a whole views it. Legacy isn't formed by one fan. Stop trying to teach me please. Thanks.
EDIT: For the last time, I am not taking away anything from what he did as a player. He was a revolutionary, great player who had a lot of influence on the game's development. When people argue that this whole fiasco doesn't affect his legacy at all, now, that's ridiculous.
I definitely agree with OneOther, big Sparkyz fan and the reason I became a fan was the twins and then eventually started to like Type-B and gogo but the fact they tainted their career for some money overshadows their achievements. Of course they didn't accomplish as much as Savior but they still had fans like me who not only admired their play but personality and dedication to Starcraft.
We're both neither saying that his influence on the game or the scandal doesn't effect the other or anything, but rather arguing about whether Savior the player precedes Savior the person or vice-versa. Just like I care more about Heidegger's work itself above who Heidegger was, I care more about Savior's work itself more than the actual person. Doesn't mean that I don't think the two were assholes, but whether or not they were has no place when it comes to their work itself. Does Heidegger's early philosophy become reduced in value because of his political alignment that he held in his life? Most definitely not. Heidegger's legacy is enormous. I choose to keep the work of a person detached from the person themselves when I judge it. And so do many people in various academical streams.
You choose to put more emphasis on the person more than their work so obviously we'll take it differently. To me, when it comes to the game Savior the person doesn't mean much at all compared to his work. The legacy of Savior the person is obviously tainted for good, I mean, he's banned from playing ever again after all. However, the legacy of Savior's work doesn't get tainted by any of it. The work is still work and it goes beyond the person. To judge someone's work based on who they are is fallacious.
Just because you decide to use selective memory and forget what he did, that doesn't change anything about how the community as a whole views it.
Isn't the presence of dissenting views in this forum not an indication that not everyone thinks the way you do? Once again, your opinion and the opinion of others, regardless of majority or not, does not make something objective. You have your opinion and I have mine because we interpret things differently.
On June 26 2010 16:27 koreasilver wrote: You choose to put more emphasis on the person more than their work so obviously we'll take it differently. To me, when it comes to the game Savior the person doesn't mean much at all compared to his work. The legacy of Savior the person is obviously tainted for good, I mean, he's banned from playing ever again after all. However, the legacy of Savior's work doesn't get tainted by any of it. The work is still work and it goes beyond the person. To judge someone's work based on who they are is fallacious.
Yeah but that's the thing. It's not like Savior and these other players beat up a child, had sex with a married woman or is a racist, what they did wrong was in the very area they became famous for. The separation between the person and their work more applies to someone like Tiger Woods than Savior. Yes the games where he defined Zerg and his title wins probably weren't secret betting matches but he destroyed the honor of his career by throwing any of his games.
That's not what I was arguing. Yes, it was my opinion that this overshadows what he accomplished as a player and the effect he had on the gaming scene, but if you read my first post, you will see that I was simply saying that his legacy is forever tainted and there's no other way around it. For some people, it's a really big deal, for others, not as much. I don't want to separate him as a player and a person, because I expect players to be more than just robots. I respect their dedication and love for the game. The fact that he threw that away affects the way I see him as a player. Your examples of artists are a bit different - sAvior directly harmed the very thing that made him successful and the fans love. That's why the "order" that we are talking about doesn't really matter. I don't necessarily separate him as a player and a person. Why? Because it's not some irrelevant personal life that we are talking about.
Does that change anything of the work that he was influential for though? No, not at all. You can apply this to any kind of artist who's later output was just outright bad, insulting, totally lacking of self-respect, etc. It ruined their careers and destroyed respect that people had for them as a person but it still doesn't change that the work that they produced that had a significant impact still retains those merits despite of what that person had done and become later. I do not believe it is much different for Savior. I don't have any respect left for him as a person but my respect for his earlier work remains intact with no difference from before this whole scandal. His self-harm was a malicious act against his own work and really wasn't an actual work product. It was a personal action.
I simply believe that an individual's work goes beyond the individual and the individual's beliefs and actions.
Just because you decide to use selective memory and forget what he did, that doesn't change anything about how the community as a whole views it.
Isn't the presence of dissenting views in this forum not an indication that not everyone thinks the way you do? Once again, your opinion and the opinion of others, regardless of majority or not, does not make something objective. You have your opinion and I have mine because we interpret things differently.
And "how the community as a whole views it" is the aggregate of those opinions. The fact that Savior's match fixing didn't damage *your* opinion of him doesn't change the fact that because there are others who had their opinions changed, overall, Savior's legacy as a player is damaged.
On June 26 2010 16:45 koreasilver wrote: Does that change anything of the work that he was influential for though? No, not at all. You can apply this to any kind of artist who's later output was just outright bad, insulting, totally lacking of self-respect, etc. It ruined their careers and destroyed respect that people had for them as a person but it still doesn't change that the work that they produced that had a significant impact still retains those merits despite of what that person had done and become later. I do not believe it is much different for Savior. I don't have any respect left for him as a person but my respect for his earlier work remains intact with no difference from before this whole scandal. His self-harm was a malicious act against his own work and really wasn't an actual work product. It was a personal action.
I simply believe that an individual's work goes beyond the individual and the individual's beliefs and actions.
I think part of this boils down to a discussion of progamers-as-entertainers or progamers-as-intellectuals. It is true that Savior advanced the level of play, and developed the theory of the game. But from the standpoint of viewing progamers as entertainers, that has no inherent value. Savior's "legacy" in that regard is the entertaining play he brought to the table and how he entered the hearts and minds of his fans. And in that sense, giving a big "fuck you" to his fans by trading their regard for money is damaging to his legacy. Because the legacy of an entertainer is ultimately built on the opinions of those who he entertained.
On June 26 2010 16:58 FragKrag wrote: man savior why did you even give us any hope
terrible
Did you believe that he would actually be innocent after being kicked off his team and forced to retire? I wish he was, but there really was no chance of that.
On June 26 2010 10:23 OneOther wrote: It makes no sense to me how some people are saying his legacy isn't tainted...I'm pretty speechless lol
I think people just have very different definitions of their fandom. As a fan of savior myself, I really couldn't care less of what his reputation was or if everyone hated his guts for who he was. All I really cared about was that he was a really good zerg player who stepped on everyone he faced.
I think I would still love the shit out of Michael Jordan even if he did something similar, just because of the sole fact that he changed the game with his skill.
My opinion of Savior is tarnished but people need to stop saying that his legacy is that of a cheater, not a great player. He still fought his way to the top of the pile with his own skill, and nothing can take that away from him. Maybe in time he'll be remembered only as the cheater but it's absurd to claim that right now, when there are still many people who still respect the accomplishments he was famous for regardless of what happened afterward.
On June 26 2010 13:16 OneOther wrote: Yes, he is. Nobody said he wasn't. My point is, he will always be remembered as a cheater/liar and someone who cared about nothing except himself, but also happened to be a great, influential player. Not a great player who cheated. That's his legacy.
Savior is baller.
Edit: Also, stop trying to pass off your opinions as fact. I will always remember Savior as a great player and a genius, and so will many, many other people.
Lol damn you really have to make me break my promise. First, you don't even understand what my argument was to begin with and you jump in to tell me what I shouldn't do. Look, the only reason I posted in this thread to begin with was that some people claimed his legacy took no damage at all. I argued against that and said people will put different emphasis on his cheating/lying, but what he did will be remembered further down the road. Some people probably don't care, others care a lot. It doesn't matter, it's still a huge part of sAvior's career as a progamer. Getting banned from the league after lying to the public about his cheating won't all of sudden be forgotten from our community. Maybe some individuals like you will forget it, if you don't care at all about the god damn game and the scene, but not from his history as a StarCraft player. Just because you decide to use selective memory and forget what he did, that doesn't change anything about how the community as a whole views it. Legacy isn't formed by one fan. Stop trying to teach me please. Thanks.
EDIT: For the last time, I am not taking away anything from what he did as a player. He was a revolutionary, great player who had a lot of influence on the game's development. When people argue that this whole fiasco doesn't affect his legacy at all, now, that's ridiculous.
On the contrary, I understand very well what your argument was, and I disagree with it. I'm not the only one, as you so condescendingly seem to think.
The legacy of Savior has nothing to do with who he was as a person. When people remember him, he may be that one progamer who eventually cheated, but he was the best goddamn player in his era. None of this trivial "oh but he hurt me personally because ESPORTS" bullshit is going to blight his accomplishments that he EARNED through his own skill. The two things are completely separate.
Also, don't presume to put words in my mouth saying that I don't care about the game or the scene. It detracts from the content of your post, assuming it's there, and is overall just rude and unnessecary.
When people remember him, he may be that one progamer who eventually cheated.
If you actually understood very well what my argument was, you would also know that you just proved my point. Thanks buddy. His legacy took a hit and you just explained what that means! How much it's tainted is dependent on different people. Some don't care at all, but the aggregate opinion of him changed. Consensus is not needed to taint a player's legacy, as people have different opinions. Some people view him and his career in a different light - that's all it takes.
Just because you decide to use selective memory and forget what he did, that doesn't change anything about how the community as a whole views it.
Isn't the presence of dissenting views in this forum not an indication that not everyone thinks the way you do? Once again, your opinion and the opinion of others, regardless of majority or not, does not make something objective. You have your opinion and I have mine because we interpret things differently.
And "how the community as a whole views it" is the aggregate of those opinions. The fact that Savior's match fixing didn't damage *your* opinion of him doesn't change the fact that because there are others who had their opinions changed, overall, Savior's legacy as a player is damaged.
The rest of your paragraph is just your opinion. Remember when you said I should stop using my opinions as facts? Yeah, you should stop that. What this means for him as a player and his career depends on individuals, and how much they make out of his fuck-ups. Lastly, don't say garbage like "trivial, oh but he hurt me personally because esports." A lot of people care about this game and the scene, and maybe a lot more than you do. Funny how you tell me to not be rude.
Savior's legacy is defined differently for different people. Those of us that choose to remember him as a great player can. Those [of you] that are overly pessimistic may opt to focus on his one failing that makes him so irredeemable that you would spit on him if you ever saw him in public.
All in all, it's just a game, an e-sport, just like any other sport. He made a mistake, as many people do, and some feel the need to crucify him over it, you included. It doesn't mean I care any less about the future of Starcraft e-sports. I was disappointed that Savior did what he did. Period. However, this isn't the end of his life. You, stating your opinions as fact again in your last post, will disagree, obviously, as I've seen you do so many times before when someone's view does not coincide with yours.
In fact, I likely care more than you do, I'm just not so obsessed that I'm reduced to a blithering child on an internet forum arguing that others aren't allowed to have their own opinion. Nobody has ever tried to force their thoughts of this situation on you, yet you feel the need to "correct" everyone with what you think should be right. I have my own opinion, different from yours, and not incorrect. Many, many others do, as well.
Also, I admit that I was hypocritical in my last post stating my opinions as fact. I was merely emulating you to show you how feeble an argument it is, and you've agreed. I'll be interested in your response which I hope will be less close-minded, and hopefully of a more agreeable tone.
This topic is so different from others. Very long debate keke. I spent quite alot of time reading..
Ah, I am interested @ what is going to happen to SavioR so I came to take a look @ this topic. Although I do not know him or see him reign during his era. I am somehow...his fan?
I am not sure I am his fan or no..
I just know that he used to dominate every1 and curious about his skill, so I always wanted him to rise and destroy everyone. To be on par with Flash , Jaedong Effort.
Anyway I am not as hurt as the rest of the ppl here. Because I don't know him very well...I mean as much as those who watch the scene during Savior-Era.
Now I am just curious about what is going to happen to him. I have a feeling it is defintely jail, but not sure how long.
On June 26 2010 18:34 pieisamazing wrote: I'm just not so obsessed that I'm reduced to a blithering child on an internet forum arguing that others aren't allowed to have their own opinion. Nobody has ever tried to force their thoughts of this situation on you, yet you feel the need to "correct" everyone with what you think should be right. I have my own opinion, different from yours, and not incorrect. Many, many others do, as well.
When people remember him, he may be that one progamer who eventually cheated.
If you actually understood very well what my argument was, you would also know that you just proved my point. Thanks buddy. His legacy took a hit and you just explained what that means! How much it's tainted is dependent on different people. Some don't care at all, but the aggregate opinion of him changed. Consensus is not needed to taint a player's legacy, as people have different opinions. Some people view him and his career in a different light - that's all it takes.
For the love of god, I am not forcing my opinion on anyone. I am not trying to make everyone view him the same way I do. Go through my posts again and you will see that I have been arguing about how his legacy is damaged. And you even agreed with me, as seen by the sentence that I quoted from you. People can choose to put different weight on his cheating/lying. They will hold different opinions of him. Of course I am fine with that, like I have said about five times now. His legacy, though? From an aggregate opinion of the entire community? It got tarnished. A lot of people - based on comments I read on Fomos and in this thread -, though not everyone, have altered views of him and his career due to these recent events. Think about it like this. If none of this happened, he would be remember as an iconic player. Now that's up to debate, and dependent on individuals' opinions. For some, maybe he still is. For others, he's a selfish liar who deserves no respect whatsoever. You can't call people who view him negatively "overly pessimistic." Again, you are being a hypocrite and judging people who hold different opinions.
If he didn't cheat and lie, would anyone question what he meant to the game of StarCraft and the progaming scene? What he meant to his fans? Different opinions on him exist, sure, but the aggregate opinion of him changed. It's hard for people to view and remember him as the same sAvior before any of this occurred. He's still a great player, but just not the same anymore on many levels. That's what it means for his legacy to be tainted.
You're right. I was not correct in saying that his legacy was not bismirched by his actions; however I do dispute the validity of people claiming that he's a terrible person and (as I mentioned) that they would basically spit on him if they ever saw him.
He made a mistake, and that will affect people to a varied degree, but I don't think (well, I hope, I guess) that people, while regretting his mistake, can still acknowledge him as a great player and choose to remember him for the good he did rather than the bad. His legacy can be untouched or completely destroyed based on who you ask. Maybe, in a way, we are both correct.
Although, the old adage "You're only as good as your last mistake" seems to be the personal mantra of a lot of people these days...
watching the rigged game was interesting. I'm surprised they'd use crappy micro to pull it off. I didn't think it'd be possible to truly do that, but lux made it look convincing.
I'd have thought they'd use terrible decision making... which lux did use
I feel bad for them now that I know they didn't want to do this in official games, but were blackmailed into it.
On June 24 2010 22:18 ssj114 wrote: Can savior still be considered a bonjwa?
yes, you have to be pretty darned tootin gosu for errors to go unoticed, which in the fraud games, i hear that the weird actions were noticed by commentators. But yeah to stage a match you have to be gosu nothing more nothing less. On a side note, Nal_rA's always been my favourite gamer. But Anyone who participated in this scandal is also my favourite gamer, heres to making money on the side, the way life really is.
OOther is right though. I'm one of the biggest fans of savior and i still am (just can't find myself disliking him). His impact on the game is going to stay the same, his starleagues will still hold a place in history, but his legacy and peoples memory of him will be dramatically altered. People who didn't like savior for petty things like he beat there favourite player over and over or his style now have a reason to dislike him, and others that sort of followed him dislike the fact that he has helped bring the game into disrepute. The general consesus on savior is a whole lot worse than what it ever was.
He was considered a bonjwa, not only because of his domination, but the fact he fought and fought through imbalances and terran onslaughts to get there, and completely changed 2 matchups, but now he's a bonjwa just because of the period in which he won starleagues. People won't go 'savior won 3 MSL's, 1 OSL in a 1-2 year time-frame and dramatically changed the way zerg played' or for the 2nd part 'fought through hideous map imbalances to do so', they will go 'he won 3 MSL's, 1 OSL's and match fixed and cheated for some nice kicks or jewelery to end his career'.
I do not think he is a terrible person though, EVERYONE can make mistakes, but savior had to represent e-sports. Normal people who live a good life don't have such a role-model effect, or obligation to do everything right and give a good image to what they do and don't face such serious repurcussions. sAviOr was one of the bonjwas, one of the legends of this giant e-sport in korea. He did 1 thing wrong, or a few things with 1 big picture, and no matter why or how, he did it. This 1 thing is much bigger than if a shop owner sells a 30 dollar item for free. He aided in a scandal that effectively ruined the results for matches that people have spent time and there lifestyle on, and the people that watched and supported it, and now a tainted feeling falls over starcraft in a way.
The reasoning for getting involved though is what gives them the bad image. They did it and got money for themselves. It wasn't like they were blackmailed or told to for the sake of it, they could gain something from it, alot more than what they maybe could with hard work.
The only reason i'm sad is because he's getting so much of the attention, and hate, when alot of the other big names (Up/Lux/Yarnc) just get a 'goodbye and good riddance' and are written off, but saviors legacy is getting worse and worse with the discussion.
There is no debate. OneOther is simply stating facts. Jesus, when will the blind fan boys stop.
No one is debating his legacy. The fact that he lied under oath and did cheat in the end is a big hit to his gaming career. It isn't arguable. Just how much is dependent on the person.
On June 26 2010 21:39 StarStruck wrote: There is no debate. OneOther is simply stating facts. Jesus, when will the blind fan boys stop.
No one is debating his legacy. The fact that he lied under oath and did cheat in the end is a big hit to his gaming career. It isn't arguable. Just how much is dependent on the person.