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It's up.
(2) Cross Game 1.07 (2) Overwatch 2.2 (3) Medusa 2.2 (4) Fighting Spirit 1.3 (4) Circuit breakers 1.0 (4) In the way of an Eddy 1.06 (4) Colosseum 2.0
Preliminaries will be:
Game 1 - (4) Fighting Spirit 1.3 Game 2 - (4) Circuit breakers 1.0 Game 3 - (3) Medusa 2.2
So, basically this season's ladder maps except (4) Ground Zero 2, was swapped out for (4) In the way of an Eddy 1.06. Can't say I am too happy about Colosseum or Cross Game.
Edit, initially forgot to include (2) Overwatch 2.2.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48991 Posts
blizzard still afraid of letting go of FS and CB.
but I guess its a symptom of forcing yourself to have a large tournament map pool.
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Ewwww, Colosseum. Otherwise seems fine. Kinda nice having a individual league with all normal-ish map pool at least
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
PLEASE KILL FS AND CB OMG
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51135 Posts
On March 08 2019 13:51 konadora wrote: PLEASE KILL FS AND CB OMG
korea is going to reunify before FS and CB are killed off
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i wish cross game would get an update so my units dont stop before the rally point. (zerg bottom left, rally main hatch to right side of natural hatch [like 4-5 hex to the right of it], some units from main now stop inbetween the rally point and the ramp to the main.... they are about half a screen short of the rally point...)
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love to see that f.s c.b is back again it actually is a lovely change from the awkward misbalanced asl maps we have seen (sparkle / third world etc)
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On March 08 2019 14:45 onlystar wrote: love to see that f.s c.b is back again it actually is a lovely change from the awkward misbalanced asl maps we have seen (sparkle / third world etc) Ah yes, the 59.6% Terran winrate Circuit Breaker and 57.8% Terran winrate Fighting Spirit. Even ELO-wise their worst match-up in both of these maps is a 54.5% advantage against Zergs on CS. CS and FS used to be balanced in 2012 or so, but today they're ridiculous Terran maps. I think it's telling the moment these maps disappeared from ASL, Terrans mysteriously began to underperform. Despite the popular narrative, 3rd World and Sparkle are only really bad for Zerg.
I say bring in the new.
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Bisutopia19033 Posts
On March 08 2019 14:45 onlystar wrote: love to see that f.s c.b is back again it actually is a lovely change from the awkward misbalanced asl maps we have seen (sparkle / third world etc) I gotta agree. I am happy to see FS make an appearance. I am really curious what the state of the meta will look like on FS since so many strategies have changed because of the awkward maps.
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On March 08 2019 22:02 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2019 14:45 onlystar wrote: love to see that f.s c.b is back again it actually is a lovely change from the awkward misbalanced asl maps we have seen (sparkle / third world etc) I gotta agree. I am happy to see FS make an appearance. I am really curious what the state of the meta will look like on FS since so many strategies have changed because of the awkward maps. it's the same ol'
nothing special to watch for... :/
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On March 08 2019 15:12 RWLabs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2019 14:45 onlystar wrote: love to see that f.s c.b is back again it actually is a lovely change from the awkward misbalanced asl maps we have seen (sparkle / third world etc) Ah yes, the 59.6% Terran winrate Circuit Breaker and 57.8% Terran winrate Fighting Spirit. Even ELO-wise their worst match-up in both of these maps is a 54.5% advantage against Zergs on CS. CS and FS used to be balanced in 2012 or so, but today they're ridiculous Terran maps. I think it's telling the moment these maps disappeared from ASL, Terrans mysteriously began to underperform. Despite the popular narrative, 3rd World and Sparkle are only really bad for Zerg. I say bring in the new.
Just by saying third world are really bad for Zerg and not for Terran tvp I can’t take your post serious at all + you are cherry picking statistics from cb/fs show where what your stats pulled?
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On the other hand, it's quite dull seeing FS and CB all the time but then again some of the ASL maps have been pretty bad so at least the level of play should be consistent
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On March 08 2019 13:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: blizzard still afraid of letting go of FS and CB.
but I guess its a symptom of forcing yourself to have a large tournament map pool. they promised they'd never get rid of cs and cb either for ladder for tourny play. its the community thats afraid to give these maps up, blizzards just giving you what you want. The. Same. Maps. For. Another. Year.
edit: i like that medusa is in play.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48991 Posts
I understand for ladder, but i don't recall them saying anything for tourney play.
afreeca hasn't used FS since ASL4 and CB was only used in ASL6 after not being in use for 2 seasons, they're really trying to not use them.
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Would have liked to see a new map besides Eddy. It's an OK map but sorta boring. It'd be fine if there weren't 3 other very standard 4 player maps in the pool.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48991 Posts
On March 08 2019 23:55 Ideas wrote: Would have liked to see a new map besides Eddy. It's an OK map but sorta boring.
Cross Game is new.
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On March 08 2019 23:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: I understand for ladder, but i don't recall them saying anything for tourney play.
afreeca hasn't used FS since ASL4 and CB was only used in ASL6 after not being in use for 2 seasons, they're really trying to not use them. They didnt say it but they dont have to say it, they've already been doing it, and its clearly their intention. Afreeca is trying to break the FS/CB obsession but KSL is blizzard, and blizzard has made it clear that they will and have embraced it.
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On March 08 2019 23:56 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2019 23:55 Ideas wrote: Would have liked to see a new map besides Eddy. It's an OK map but sorta boring. Cross Game is new.
Yeah that's true, I guess I just want more than 1 actually new map if the map pool is going to have SIX maps haha.
I appreciate that KSL is trying to differentiate itself from the ASL by using more standard maps and having Bo5s in the group stages and whatnot, and I suppose the standard maps are there to make playing so many BoXs a little easier to prepare for. Honestly assuming they definitely want to keep FS/CB, I'd be happy if they replaced Eddy or Colosseum with 1 more new map or at least another older 2/3 player map.
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I'm happy that Blizzard is keeping with the format of using ladder maps in this tourney. It's really helping me learn maps and points of attack as a noob. Maybe now I can finally learn what to actually do on Medusa lol.
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TLADT24917 Posts
I think it's fine to keep one of FS and CB, but not both. Having at least one standard map among a lot of different ones isn't a bad idea imo. After all, we still get some really cool games on either map like that Light vs Rain FS game from last KSL.
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On March 08 2019 13:33 SCWes wrote:It's up.(2) Cross Game 1.07 (3) Medusa 2.2 (4) Fighting Spirit 1.3 (4) Circuit breakers 1.0 (4) In the way of an Eddy 1.06 (4) Colosseum 2.0 Preliminaries will be: Game 1 - (4) Fighting Spirit 1.3 Game 2 - (4) Circuit breakers 1.0 Game 3 - (3) Medusa 2.2 So, basically this season's ladder maps except (4) Ground Zero 2, but with the addition of (4) Colosseum. Can't say I am too happy about Colosseum or Cross Game. You forgot (2)Overwatch!
On March 08 2019 14:42 Bakuryu wrote: i wish cross game would get an update so my units dont stop before the rally point. (zerg bottom left, rally main hatch to right side of natural hatch [like 4-5 hex to the right of it], some units from main now stop inbetween the rally point and the ramp to the main.... they are about half a screen short of the rally point...) I'll check this out. Weird bug, not sure what could be causing it. But if I can figure it out I'll try and fix it. Got a screenshot as a starting point?
On March 08 2019 23:55 Ideas wrote: Would have liked to see a new map besides Eddy. It's an OK map but sorta boring. It'd be fine if there weren't 3 other very standard 4 player maps in the pool. Cross Game and Overwatch are new, as far as the Korean pro scene is concerned.
On March 09 2019 00:11 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2019 23:56 BLinD-RawR wrote:On March 08 2019 23:55 Ideas wrote: Would have liked to see a new map besides Eddy. It's an OK map but sorta boring. Cross Game is new. Yeah that's true, I guess I just want more than 1 actually new map if the map pool is going to have SIX maps haha. I appreciate that KSL is trying to differentiate itself from the ASL by using more standard maps and having Bo5s in the group stages and whatnot, and I suppose the standard maps are there to make playing so many BoXs a little easier to prepare for. Honestly assuming they definitely want to keep FS/CB, I'd be happy if they replaced Eddy or Colosseum with 1 more new map or at least another older 2/3 player map. They want to stick to the ladder map pool for the most part. On the bright side, this means players will be pretty familiar with all the maps, so the early rounds aren't gonna be too much of a cheesefest.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
Show nested quote + Yeah that's true, I guess I just want more than 1 actually new map if the map pool is going to have SIX maps haha.
I appreciate that KSL is trying to differentiate itself from the ASL by using more standard maps and having Bo5s in the group stages and whatnot, and I suppose the standard maps are there to make playing so many BoXs a little easier to prepare for. Honestly assuming they definitely want to keep FS/CB, I'd be happy if they replaced Eddy or Colosseum with 1 more new map or at least another older 2/3 player map.
They want to stick to the ladder map pool for the most part. On the bright side, this means players will be pretty familiar with all the maps, so the early rounds aren't gonna be too much of a cheesefest.
Thing is as long as they're old KeSPA maps then the current pros know all of them really well given how much they've played all of them. That's why I think Medusa and Colosseum being here are the best 2 additions. <3
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On March 08 2019 23:32 TT1 wrote: aw no overwatch :[
The list in the op seems to be wrong, obviously there have to be 7 maps for this tourney (5 maps which will be played in each bo5 + 2 vetoes) overwatch is in the map pool (check out the offical homepage which is also linked in the op
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On March 09 2019 03:55 oEkY wrote:The list in the op seems to be wrong, obviously there have to be 7 maps for this tourney (5 maps which will be played in each bo5 + 2 vetoes) overwatch is in the map pool (check out the offical homepage which is also linked in the op
ahhh right, ty
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I want Third World and Tau Cross.
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I think people like to watch the maps they actually play, so ladder maps are good for viewer retention. That said, if you veto the maps that are bad for your race on ladder, after the first few weeks where everyone is trying the new maps you'll be getting FS/CB 70% of the time because they're almost universally un-vetoed except by the anti FS/CB hipsters. I only had non-CPL maps vetoed last season and I think I only ever played Benzene/Roadkill/Aztec in ZvZ's, bar two games. Probably don't need both FS and CB though, Eddy fills that 4p standard niche but is worse for PvP. Maybe a lesser-played but still time-tested map would be a good replacement.
I like all these maps except Cross Game, I don't know how Zerg gets a third base in ZvT. Colosseum is annoying to play but fun to watch.
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On March 08 2019 22:54 onlystar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2019 15:12 RWLabs wrote:On March 08 2019 14:45 onlystar wrote: love to see that f.s c.b is back again it actually is a lovely change from the awkward misbalanced asl maps we have seen (sparkle / third world etc) Ah yes, the 59.6% Terran winrate Circuit Breaker and 57.8% Terran winrate Fighting Spirit. Even ELO-wise their worst match-up in both of these maps is a 54.5% advantage against Zergs on CS. CS and FS used to be balanced in 2012 or so, but today they're ridiculous Terran maps. I think it's telling the moment these maps disappeared from ASL, Terrans mysteriously began to underperform. Despite the popular narrative, 3rd World and Sparkle are only really bad for Zerg. I say bring in the new. Just by saying third world are really bad for Zerg and not for Terran tvp I can’t take your post serious at all + you are cherry picking statistics from cb/fs show where what your stats pulled? You say, as you provide no evidence for your claims. Where else would I get the data? Spponbbang.com of course. Below is the data taken from January 2018 to now, ELO scores (far right) used.
This is the data for FS and CS. Notice how Terrans' worst match-up in those maps are literally 50/50 against TvT? In what world do we live in where Terrans can beat both Zerg and Protosses with a cool 55% winrate and still call the map neutral?
And this is the data for 3rd World. Notice how Terrans beat Zerg, Protoss beat both, and Zergs lose to everyone? Speaking from a PvT perspective the discrepancy in winrate is only 2.6%.
Finally, this is Sparkle. Terrans beat Protosses and lose to Zerg. And while Zergs thrash Terrans, they also have the lowest winrate possible on that map of 30.4% against Protosses. As for PvT? A 5.8% advantage for Terrans.
Where's the outrage over maps when maps like Roadkill boasts a TvP of 56.6% and TvZ of 55.0%? But if Flash loses to Snow apparently the maps are to blame, despite the maps in ASL 5 being reasonable for TvP, with the exception of Transistor (which Flash won).
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On March 09 2019 06:49 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2019 03:55 oEkY wrote:On March 08 2019 23:32 TT1 wrote: aw no overwatch :[ The list in the op seems to be wrong, obviously there have to be 7 maps for this tourney (5 maps which will be played in each bo5 + 2 vetoes) overwatch is in the map pool (check out the offical homepage which is also linked in the op ahhh right, ty
Yea my bad, I fixed it
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On March 09 2019 09:12 RWLabs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2019 22:54 onlystar wrote:On March 08 2019 15:12 RWLabs wrote:On March 08 2019 14:45 onlystar wrote: love to see that f.s c.b is back again it actually is a lovely change from the awkward misbalanced asl maps we have seen (sparkle / third world etc) Ah yes, the 59.6% Terran winrate Circuit Breaker and 57.8% Terran winrate Fighting Spirit. Even ELO-wise their worst match-up in both of these maps is a 54.5% advantage against Zergs on CS. CS and FS used to be balanced in 2012 or so, but today they're ridiculous Terran maps. I think it's telling the moment these maps disappeared from ASL, Terrans mysteriously began to underperform. Despite the popular narrative, 3rd World and Sparkle are only really bad for Zerg. I say bring in the new. Just by saying third world are really bad for Zerg and not for Terran tvp I can’t take your post serious at all + you are cherry picking statistics from cb/fs show where what your stats pulled? You say, as you provide no evidence for your claims. Where else would I get the data? Spponbbang.com of course. Below is the data taken from January 2018 to now, ELO scores (far right) used. This is the data for FS and CS. Notice how Terrans' worst match-up in those maps are literally 50/50 against TvT? In what world do we live in where Terrans can beat both Zerg and Protosses with a cool 55% winrate and still call the map neutral? And this is the data for 3rd World. Notice how Terrans beat Zerg, Protoss beat both, and Zergs lose to everyone? Speaking from a PvT perspective the discrepancy in winrate is only 2.6%. Finally, this is Sparkle. Terrans beat Protosses and lose to Zerg. And while Zergs thrash Terrans, they also have the lowest winrate possible on that map of 30.4% against Protosses. As for PvT? A 5.8% advantage for Terrans. Where's the outrage over maps when maps like Roadkill boasts a TvP of 56.6% and TvZ of 55.0%? But if Flash loses to Snow apparently the maps are to blame, despite the maps in ASL 5 being reasonable for TvP, with the exception of Transistor (which Flash won).
your tone is very humorous to me in this post..
''terrans can beat both zerg and protosses with a cool 55% winrate and stil call the map neutral''
(55% is still on the edge of a acceptable map imbalance as most players agree since 51/52/53 i just rare to hit on anymap..)
'' ASL 5 being reasonable for TvP, with the exception of Transistor (which Flash won).[/QUOTE]''
so funny that you add the flash won part where you not able to judge the game for what it is why he won the map at all? flash wentout on an all-in push to kill, everything to avoid a late game on the map since carriers are completely OP on that map and ripped him apart in litterly every practice match in late games.
''But if Flash loses to Snow apparently the maps are to blame,'' ''asl5 being reasonable for TvP''
this is even more hilarious you set up a bo5 with at least 2 maps that are complete hell for terran and third world is used x2(even designed to give terran a horrable time Transisor /third world/) even the map makers/asl organisation has said the maps are designed to not have flash as another asl winner
when you read these things so many things go trough my head like how you can look deeper into the statistics whats going on what is happing with the terran lineup flash/last/mind that where wrecking afreeca but hey something tells me this one is not able to listen to reasoning this one is lost
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I hope this KSL is better. Not sure what it is exactly, but the level of play felt much lower than ASL6 or ASL7 overall.
CB & FS both being in the map pool is disappointing, but if we get good games, it's alright. I hope certain players don't decide to sit this one out.
so funny that you add the flash won part where you not able to judge the game for what it is why he won the map at all? flash wentout on an all-in push to kill, everything to avoid a late game on the map since carriers are completely OP on that map and ripped him apart in litterly every practice match in late games.
The only reason he emphasized that Flash won on that map is to point out that Flash lost on the relatively balanced maps, and the one truly bad one, he won on. The point was NOT to say that that map is actually not bad for Terran...........
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On March 09 2019 14:45 errol1001 wrote:I hope this KSL is better. Not sure what it is exactly, but the level of play felt much lower than ASL6 or ASL7 overall. CB & FS both being in the map pool is disappointing, but if we get good games, it's alright. I hope certain players don't decide to sit this one out. Show nested quote + so funny that you add the flash won part where you not able to judge the game for what it is why he won the map at all? flash wentout on an all-in push to kill, everything to avoid a late game on the map since carriers are completely OP on that map and ripped him apart in litterly every practice match in late games.
The only reason he emphasized that Flash won on that map is to point out that Flash lost on the relatively balanced maps, and the one truly bad one, he won on. The point was NOT to say that that map is actually not bad for Terran...........
now read what i wrote about it.. lol
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On March 09 2019 14:45 errol1001 wrote: I hope this KSL is better. Not sure what it is exactly, but the level of play felt much lower than ASL6 or ASL7 overall. .
I think after KSL1, a lot of pros decided that it required too much effort to compete in two leagues simultaneously, even if they don't overlap (although they did at the end of ASL6). Jaedong specifically said he wanted to focus solely on ASL and forfeited his seed. Best, Horang2, Shine, Stork, Sea, Snow, and Shuttle all played in the first one and either didn't try or got knocked out in qualifiers. That's a lot of talent to lose from one season to another. Big names like Flash and EffOrt have never entered either. ASL is the more prestigious league for sure, just like OSL vs. MSL from the Kespa days. KSL is likely to remain second-fiddle. They had that kooky winner picks business in season 1 and a weak player roster for season 2. But I hope more of the top tier players show up because I prefer the format of KSL.
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On March 09 2019 20:14 JakePlissken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2019 14:45 errol1001 wrote: I hope this KSL is better. Not sure what it is exactly, but the level of play felt much lower than ASL6 or ASL7 overall. . I think after KSL1, a lot of pros decided that it required too much effort to compete in two leagues simultaneously, even if they don't overlap (although they did at the end of ASL6). Jaedong specifically said he wanted to focus solely on ASL and forfeited his seed. Best, Horang2, Shine, Stork, Sea, Snow, and Shuttle all played in the first one and either didn't try or got knocked out in qualifiers. That's a lot of talent to lose from one season to another. Big names like Flash and EffOrt have never entered either. ASL is the more prestigious league for sure, just like OSL vs. MSL from the Kespa days. KSL is likely to remain second-fiddle. They had that kooky winner picks business in season 1 and a weak player roster for season 2. But I hope more of the top tier players show up because I prefer the format of KSL.
KSL is vastly superior to ASL. Format, map choices, qualifier format and the overall tournament is far more professional compared to ASL which is more about "showing good games" and aimless banter.
ASL is important because it's Afreeca and that's how broodwar streamers make money in Korea.
How much has Jaedong won out of competitive broodwar since he came back in BW a few years ago? How much from donations?... I think that's the main reason he skipped it that year. Plus the format, a lot of these guys don't want to play a potential 7-game series against another top pro.
If Flash enters KSL and he loses to someone 4-2 or 4-3 partly because his wrists are flaming up, even his own fans will probably flame him like hell. If he doesn't, still thousands of people will tune in and watch his stream.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48991 Posts
wow thats a lot of opinion being thrown around as fact.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
How is it vastly superior, exactly?
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any word on which players are going to be participating? flash?
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On March 09 2019 22:51 TaardadAiel wrote: How is it vastly superior, exactly?
I guess I failed to qualify that. As a competitive e-sports tournament I meant.
I for one don't really enjoy the Bo1 format, the shitty music and the various gimmicky features that ASL comes with.
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I like the format of KSL. The group stages are less prone to cheesing due to the format.
If the players show up, it should be great.
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On March 09 2019 12:31 onlystar wrote: your tone is very humorous to me in this post..
''terrans can beat both zerg and protosses with a cool 55% winrate and stil call the map neutral''
(55% is still on the edge of a acceptable map imbalance as most players agree since 51/52/53 i just rare to hit on anymap..) You asked for statistics and I give you statistics and now you whine about my tone? I'm sorry if I'm not here to coddle you.
I pointed out the fact that Flash lost to Snow on ASL 5 because that's really the epicenter of complaining about map imbalances in ASL 5, when in reality TvP isn't as broken as it first appears in ASL 5. And what are you on about? Terrans' ELO-based worst match-up on FS and CS is not 55%, it's 55.8%. And it goes as high as 57.8% against Protosses on CB. You'd know both of these if you actually looked at the data. A map where Terrans have no bad match-ups by at least a 5% margin is not a map imbalance? Yet you complain about Third World that only has a 2.3% discrepancy in TvP?
Careful lad, your bias is showing.
On March 09 2019 12:31 onlystar wrote: so funny that you add the flash won part where you not able to judge the game for what it is why he won the map at all? flash wentout on an all-in push to kill, everything to avoid a late game on the map since carriers are completely OP on that map and ripped him apart in litterly every practice match in late games. Why do you think I added it? If Flash lost on Transistor, then there would be an argument to be made that the map imbalance lost Flash that map as Transistor is the only map in the ASL 5 map pool that's indisputably broken for TvP. But he didn't lose, and that's the point.
On March 09 2019 12:31 onlystar wrote: this is even more hilarious you set up a bo5 with at least 2 maps that are complete hell for terran and third world is used x2(even designed to give terran a horrable time Transisor /third world/) even the map makers/asl organisation has said the maps are designed to not have flash as another asl winner
So I don't know how many times I have to say this, so I'll bold it for you because you're clearly not even reading my posts.
TRANSISTOR WAS THE ONLY BROKEN MAP FOR TVP IN ASL 5.
The closest thing to a Protoss favoured map after Transistor was Third World, which is within your magical acceptabable 5% margin. And so what if the tournament was geared to kill Flash? The past two tournaments were geared to get a Zerg (specifically JD) to win and that failed too.
On March 09 2019 12:31 onlystar wrote: when you read these things so many things go trough my head like how you can look deeper into the statistics whats going on what is happing with the terran lineup flash/last/mind that where wrecking afreeca Are you actually insane or do you not understand how ELO works? The point of an ELO-predicted winrate is to predict which race is more likely to win at the same ELO. So it doesn't matter as much if Flash beat Tyson on Sparkle 4000 times, the winrate won't be shifted drastically in favour of T. Contrarily if Tyson beats Flash more than he loses, then the ELO-based prediction shifts sharply in favour of Protoss.
On March 09 2019 12:31 onlystar wrote: but hey something tells me this one is not able to listen to reasoning this one is lost The greatest irony is that I'm the one arguing with statistics and facts and you're the one whining about my tone and not providing a shred of evidence for your claims. Complain about my tone if you want, but at least do me the decency of reading the statistics YOU asked for.
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you have to give it to the terran propaganda wheel, the race has no weak match ups, maps are constantly working out gimmicks to handicap the race to no real avail [i.e virtually no buildable spots all over the place in modern maps], and virtually every single bonjwa is a terran...and the going myth is that they are the hard race.
User was warned for this post.
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FS and CB..? yawn.. there are soooo many maps that can be used and they're pretty well balanced too.. I really hoped that they will drop the FS and CB bollocks.. damn shame that they didn't.
I really like Cross Game and Neo Overwatch, also Colosseum II. Overall this is a okay mappool, a bit on the boring side though.
My perfect mappool for this season would be something like this:
(2) Cross Game (2) Neo Overwatch (3) Pathfinder (3) Tau Cross (4) Colosseum II (4) Judgement Day (4) Othello
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On March 10 2019 15:16 RWLabs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2019 12:31 onlystar wrote: your tone is very humorous to me in this post..
''terrans can beat both zerg and protosses with a cool 55% winrate and stil call the map neutral''
(55% is still on the edge of a acceptable map imbalance as most players agree since 51/52/53 i just rare to hit on anymap..) You asked for statistics and I give you statistics and now you whine about my tone? I'm sorry if I'm not here to coddle you. I pointed out the fact that Flash lost to Snow on ASL 5 because that's really the epicenter of complaining about map imbalances in ASL 5, when in reality TvP isn't as broken as it first appears in ASL 5. And what are you on about? Terrans' ELO-based worst match-up on FS and CS is not 55%, it's 55.8%. And it goes as high as 57.8% against Protosses on CB. You'd know both of these if you actually looked at the data. A map where Terrans have no bad match-ups by at least a 5% margin is not a map imbalance? Yet you complain about Third World that only has a 2.3% discrepancy in TvP? Careful lad, your bias is showing. Show nested quote +On March 09 2019 12:31 onlystar wrote: so funny that you add the flash won part where you not able to judge the game for what it is why he won the map at all? flash wentout on an all-in push to kill, everything to avoid a late game on the map since carriers are completely OP on that map and ripped him apart in litterly every practice match in late games. Why do you think I added it? If Flash lost on Transistor, then there would be an argument to be made that the map imbalance lost Flash that map as Transistor is the only map in the ASL 5 map pool that's indisputably broken for TvP. But he didn't lose, and that's the point. Show nested quote +On March 09 2019 12:31 onlystar wrote: this is even more hilarious you set up a bo5 with at least 2 maps that are complete hell for terran and third world is used x2(even designed to give terran a horrable time Transisor /third world/) even the map makers/asl organisation has said the maps are designed to not have flash as another asl winner
So I don't know how many times I have to say this, so I'll bold it for you because you're clearly not even reading my posts. TRANSISTOR WAS THE ONLY BROKEN MAP FOR TVP IN ASL 5.The closest thing to a Protoss favoured map after Transistor was Third World, which is within your magical acceptabable 5% margin. And so what if the tournament was geared to kill Flash? The past two tournaments were geared to get a Zerg (specifically JD) to win and that failed too. Show nested quote +On March 09 2019 12:31 onlystar wrote: when you read these things so many things go trough my head like how you can look deeper into the statistics whats going on what is happing with the terran lineup flash/last/mind that where wrecking afreeca Are you actually insane or do you not understand how ELO works? The point of an ELO-predicted winrate is to predict which race is more likely to win at the same ELO. So it doesn't matter as much if Flash beat Tyson on Sparkle 4000 times, the winrate won't be shifted drastically in favour of T. Contrarily if Tyson beats Flash more than he loses, then the ELO-based prediction shifts sharply in favour of Protoss. Show nested quote +On March 09 2019 12:31 onlystar wrote: but hey something tells me this one is not able to listen to reasoning this one is lost The greatest irony is that I'm the one arguing with statistics and facts and you're the one whining about my tone and not providing a shred of evidence for your claims. Complain about my tone if you want, but at least do me the decency of reading the statistics YOU asked for.
you dont get it do you, your tone gave away how biased you are thats why i brought it up you come across as some guy on a crusade versus terran on conventional maps that nobody has any problem with going up against terran, if you feel you come short versus terran players on F.S C.B you dont have enough assets in your arsenal to deal with terran at all. i feel thats the case here pretty much.
you blatantly scream out %'s and IMBALANCE with zero knowledge of what the statistics behold concerning the third world as said before the tournament was supposed to deny flash another ASL win transistor / third world made that possible. why did third world not come out as heavily protoss favoured in the sponbang, ill get to that later in my post. (it litterly takes 1 look for someone with a little bit of TvP knowledge to see that map would become really protoss favored in the late/mid game.)
(cant believe someone has to explain this to you lol but here we go: so its a semi-island thats extremely good for carriers you start out on the non island part of the map in case of carriers you can hardly touch them if they are on the island part of the map unless you would need to get a lot of dropships to carry gols over when you are allready hurting gas you need all the gas you can get on gols not spend it on dropships so its less cost-effective and also cost more apm/time just to get units/gols across to the island part +sniping of dropships with carriers is easy if you get close enough to the dropships. with the map layout on the island part carriers get a free passage to the main to start harassing pining a terran down. as do arbiters pretty much with no reall way to intercept with gols. and ofcourse a third gas is something you can expand to not that hard for a terran on the map but securing it is quite hard since the third gas is far away or close to the main but on the island part.
than since its semi-island recalls are also more powerful than on a normal map. plus that of the narrow ramp up the mains terran can fit 1 mech unit at the time good luck cleaning up a recall in the main+ the stasis block ramp is more easy to accomplish as you can almost not miss it really. that will cost the terran its main easily
in case of late game refugee protoss to the islands its just incredibly hard to assert yourself as terran on 2 sides of the map in the late game and push in 2 directions this is all so plain and simple to see
in conclusion, mid-late game becomes an enormous headache for terrans they are definitely at a disadvantage.
every terran user is aware of the imbalance in third world so they will change the mid/early game completly. they will play super aggresivly or heavy harasment that has to payoff to get a huge lead this the only reason they are able to still hit a decent % on that map
likewise you fail to understand that thats what happend on transistor, ''but flash WON that'' gosh its so narrowminded yes he won if i bunker rush every protoss on an protoss favoured map the map balance(layout of the map) doesnt matter now does it? Flash understood there is no chance in the late game went for an all-in push to take snow out early so he did not have to deal with the map imbalance.
and before you are going on some silly theory where you claim like see terran can adjust it style to maps so its balanced.
those playing styles are so sensitive to a proper safe counters from protoss they can easily manage to aim on surviving the early game and taking terran out eventually in the late game, using the map advantages for protoss in their favour.
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sounds like mrrwlabs is right. continue.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
But RWLabs said Transistor was imbalanced, it's just that Flash didn't lose to Snow because of that map. Which is true, because he won there.
And how are you going to argue that you just "feel" that Third World is incredibly bad for Terran - much worse than statistics suggest? I mean, why would anybody believe you? I too find Third World a harder map for TvP, but how do you explain those statistics?
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I think people underestimate how good the "standard" part of the map is for Terran midgame pushes. And early/midgame is always more important for balance, Sparkle is similarly imbalanced in late game TvP, but it didn't matter cause wraith/valkyrie destroys Protoss before they get carriers there (ofc T>P early advantage is much smaller on Third World)
Onlystar's argument essentially comes down to this: Terran players are overall much better than Protoss players
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muh feelz vs hard stats..
Well.. I guess I'll go with stats on this one.
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Always go with the stats boys... always the stats.
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onlystar continuing to argue that the maps are imba against terran because, despite the terrans having an acceptable win rate on the maps, they have to change their playstyle during the early and midgame.
"every terran user is aware of the imbalance in third world so they will change the mid/early game completly. they will play super aggresivly or heavy harasment that has to payoff to get a huge lead this the only reason they are able to still hit a decent % on that map" This translates to, "yes they still win lots of games, but only because they don't play it like Fighting Spirit, therefore it must be imbalanced." which is not a reasonable argument on balance. Sounds more like you want Terrans to be able to play the exact turtle up and then push style they want no matter the map.
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When will we stop having a bunch of Terran favoured maps in the pool?
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Is there some policy to not include any ASL maps? There's two good 3-player maps in the ASL but they chuck in fucking Medusa.
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hey! medusa is a great map
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On March 13 2019 13:23 oshibori_probe wrote: Is there some policy to not include any ASL maps? There's two good 3-player maps in the ASL but they chuck in fucking Medusa.
KSL since season 1 has matched up with ladder maps.
Also having tournaments use different maps to each other is good. More variety.
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It's also probably the fact that Afreeca seem to like doing their own thing regarding maps. I doubt they give any one at Blizzard a notification in advance which new maps they are gonna use, so synchronization between map pools is hard.
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onlystar. Youre making a worse and worse case for yourself. Read RWLabs post again a couple of times and understand the actual facts he writes and stop intentionally misreading his points.
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I like the bo7 semi finals and finals. I know that many pros have broken wrist but still.
I would like KSL to turn a little bit as a musical show like ASL is
On March 09 2019 01:24 BigFan wrote: I think it's fine to keep one of FS and CB, but not both. Having at least one standard map among a lot of different ones isn't a bad idea imo. After all, we still get some really cool games on either map like that Light vs Rain FS game from last KSL.
Agreed, they should turn over them one per season
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On March 13 2019 19:52 Freakling wrote: It's also probably the fact that Afreeca seem to like doing their own thing regarding maps. I doubt they give any one at Blizzard a notification in advance which new maps they are gonna use, so synchronization between map pools is hard.
It's good they both have different pools though, more maps overall! <3
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How to find out which player will choose the first map?
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Canada5565 Posts
Thanks! He talks with a lot of passion. I wish the matches had been broadcasted. Rooting for him for sure.
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Didn't want to open a new thread on this but wondering for several weeks now: - is there another KSL season scheduled till the end of 2019?
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As far as i know, there is a 2nd season planed for this year, so it should be announced very soon
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On September 13 2019 20:54 FakeFin wrote: As far as i know, there is a 2nd season planed for this year, so it should be announced very soon I hope for that but it's almost Q4 and couldn't find any real info.
Keeping my fingers crossed! :D
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Yeah, fingers crossed for sure. Can't wait to possibly see Bisu play in offline tourneys again
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Nice with some familiar ladder maps, as a counter to ASL's map pool.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On September 14 2019 00:41 A.Alm wrote: Nice with some familiar ladder maps, as a counter to ASL's map pool.
This tournaments over my man!
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On September 13 2019 20:45 BlueStar wrote: Didn't want to open a new thread on this but wondering for several weeks now: - is there another KSL season scheduled till the end of 2019? I don't make the rules or anything but I think you should have made a new thread or used the general discussion thread. By posting in this old one you make people reread a stupid argument from six months ago before they realise the thread is really old.
This happens so often TL really should just put in big red letters in the center of the screen that the thread OP was made n months ago if it's been more than one month, with the only exceptions being stickied threads like BW General Discussion.
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Might be a good idea to put in some maps that are less favoured for protoss now that so many top zergs and terrans are gone. I'm thinking replace overwatch with bluestorm or something.
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On September 14 2019 02:08 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2019 00:41 A.Alm wrote: Nice with some familiar ladder maps, as a counter to ASL's map pool.
This tournaments over my man!
:-(
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