Seems like even Bisu can't make it work against the top Zergs now.
Every time I see a Protoss do this, he just gets massively stomped by the opponent Zerg at the current top Korean level.
Maybe it's the map pool or the top Zergs like hero & ZerO knowing how to deal with it. but Sair/Reaver is becoming the SK Terran of Protoss builds (Zergs are exploiting the weakness of the build too well that it seems too sub-optimal and gimmicky).
It's funny how 4 Gate/2Archon timing is super strong vs the now popular 4 base/6 hatch style, but instead, people still opt to go for Sair/Reaver time and time again.
On July 26 2015 22:30 HyralGambit wrote: It's funny how 4 Gate/2Archon timing is super strong vs the now popular 4 base/6 hatch style, but instead, people still opt to go for Sair/Reaver time and time again.
zealot proof zerg walls are quite good vs 2archon+zealot opening. zerg just needs to scout and stay in his base. The Bisu vs zero on Jade was not good example of sair/reaver imo.
On July 27 2015 06:14 Puyi wrote: what happened to sk terran? ive been playing sc2 but i didnt think a huge cloud of science vessels could ever go out of style
vessels are still in the lategame, but switching bio into mech has become very popular. Mass tanks and vults are way stronger vs swarms and ultras than marines.
I guess current 3 base meta is like simply very effective vs reaver sair tech for a few reasons. You'd need a good drop to delay the zerg, or hit a fine timing attack and have some luck that the zerg won't be prepared. Other than that It should be good on maps that allow an easy 3rd or allowing a 3rd within the initial wall-in (few maps like that). Else it's 2 base reaver vs 3 base eco zerg that's mostly quite safe, and 3 base without early pressure or incoming threat, is just plain comfortable.
I'm sure you can play it effectively till high ranks, but idk if you'd want to play it vs top players all the time.
To be honest, it's very map specific. You shouldn't really sair/reaver on Jade...Maps like Bloody ridge, on the other hand, are very effective for this kind of play as you can secure the 4 bases in your corner side relatively easy with sairs and reavers as they are all close by air and have ramps.
Bisu made a really bad choice to sair/reaver on that map. He didn't have the economy to tech reavers and obtain objectives such as expansions and map control in that game. Also what DraW said ^.
I think the real issue, for Bisu at least, is that he doesn't have the high level zerg practice partners and coaching that he had with SKT. Sometimes it is really obvious he is uncertain about his decision making and makes mistakes he wouldn't have in the KESPA era.
I just don't think it's really never been a mainstream strategy. Or should I say not the most popular used pvz strategy on land maps.However on paradoxx bisu does go reaver/sair into carriers.
On July 28 2015 12:39 J-dawg wrote: I just don't think it's really never been a mainstream strategy. Or should I say not the most popular used pvz strategy on land maps.However on paradoxx bisu does go reaver/sair into carriers.
If I remember correctly, maps like Andromeda made the style very popular for a time. Like Draw said, it's map-specific.
On July 28 2015 12:39 J-dawg wrote: I just don't think it's really never been a mainstream strategy. Or should I say not the most popular used pvz strategy on land maps.However on paradoxx bisu does go reaver/sair into carriers.
If I remember correctly, maps like Andromeda made the style very popular for a time. Like Draw said, it's map-specific.
Yeah, I was out of bw for 3 long years and I have forgot a lot. I think Andromeda was popular before I left bw in 2009 to 2012 anyways, either way I must of forgotten about reaver/sair being popular on that map. I do recall the ggplay vs stork game I think it was which he did go reaver/sair into carriers on that map as did many other gosu players.
sair/reaver sucked since zerg started to use 3 hatch scourge builds. remember that game July vs Free on Andromeda? it's even worse now Zergs have perfected the fast 4th base style which is perfect for fighting sair/reaver, have gotten better at muta/scourge vs sairs, get +1 armor pre-emptively and so on... it's just how the game evolves
KH's 2 stargate sairs did crazy damage before the Reaver harass even started, I think Killer was just caught offguard
On July 31 2015 18:19 Espers wrote: sair/reaver sucked since zerg started to use 3 hatch scourge builds. remember that game July vs Free on Andromeda? it's even worse now Zergs have perfected the fast 4th base style which is perfect for fighting sair/reaver, have gotten better at muta/scourge vs sairs, get +1 armor pre-emptively and so on... it's just how the game evolves
KH's 2 stargate sairs did crazy damage before the Reaver harass even started, I think Killer was just caught offguard
Exactly, Killer was supply blocked for life, corsairs already won the game. With or without reaver, killer could do only buildings.
On July 31 2015 22:56 c3rberUs wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 2 stargate a normal build to transition to sair-reaver? I've seen himself rA do it a few times I think.
in the past yes,now is more a counter to mutas,a way to take the air control with a follow up of 5 gateways zealots +1 in other cases dt build and expand etc.others also make 2 reavers but goes straight into templar archives.
Sair/Reaver really belongs to Stork who was its best advocate and best player. No reason the strategy wouldn't work on ideal maps if they exist. There are probably some undiscovered transitions into sair/reaver that might make it more viable. If the opening is wrong the build isn't going to work.
Starcraft isn't Chess--there's a lot more academic work that could improve existing strategies and sair reaver is one.
FUCK SAIR REAVER. just because julyzerg can beat it on andromeda doesn't mean sub 500 apm zergs can do it. such a strong build if the toss knows what they're doing!!!
On March 01 2018 07:54 Endymion wrote: FUCK SAIR REAVER. just because julyzerg can beat it on andromeda doesn't mean sub 500 apm zergs can do it. such a strong build if the toss knows what they're doing!!!
You're assuming that you need to be at July's level to beat an opponent that is on a much, much lower level.
On March 01 2018 07:54 Endymion wrote: FUCK SAIR REAVER. just because julyzerg can beat it on andromeda doesn't mean sub 500 apm zergs can do it. such a strong build if the toss knows what they're doing!!!
On March 01 2018 07:54 Endymion wrote: FUCK SAIR REAVER. just because julyzerg can beat it on andromeda doesn't mean sub 500 apm zergs can do it. such a strong build if the toss knows what they're doing!!!
You're assuming that you need to be at July's level to beat an opponent that is on a much, much lower level.
except i'm playing against 400 apm peruvian protosses who have practiced their builds tens of thousands of times, who are actually superior to korean protosses
On March 01 2018 07:54 Endymion wrote: FUCK SAIR REAVER. just because julyzerg can beat it on andromeda doesn't mean sub 500 apm zergs can do it. such a strong build if the toss knows what they're doing!!!
hmm now i wanna rewatch that series
here's one of them.. he had another good game vs best in 2009, also on andromeda
Sair reaver has always been a weird risky build due to the insanely high res price of a bunch of sairs And reavers plus the insanely low ground threat and map control the toss cedes having to save up and tech to such a build. Definitely takes a godly toss and a nice map to pull off correctly. IMO sair reaver has fallen out of popularity since 2009 and was never really a common build in any time of Pvz but I’d love to see some modern day tossss like best, stork , bisu, perfect man, etc give it a shot on some afreeca streams.