Top pros don't know how some spells work? - Page 2
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sM.Zik
Canada2542 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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shall_burn
252 Posts
I've also seen a very wierd thing once. A ling with Maelstorm casted on it, could still move. Like, that orange animation is on it, but the ling is running none the less.. I did not save the replay, unfortunately. And later I tried to reproduce this thing under different circumstances, to no effect. | ||
kogeT
Poland2000 Posts
On November 23 2017 16:51 shall_burn wrote: Dark Archons were one of my favourite units, if not the most favourite. When I played more actively some years ago, I would try use them in almost every game. I was a legit D/D+ at the time, but because I had Dark Archons in my army, people would get angry, thinking I'm smurfing and noob bashing. Like, you have to be pr0 g0su to use DAs... Is that how Mind Control really works? Good times, haha I've also seen a very wierd thing once. A ling with Maelstorm casted on it, could still move. Like, that orange animation is on it, but the ling is running none the less.. I did not save the replay, unfortunately. And later I tried to reproduce this thing under different circumstances, to no effect. This is a well known bug with maelstormed units still moving. You can see it in FBH yt video where he shows different bugs. (no link though) | ||
LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On November 23 2017 16:47 Foxxan wrote: So how exactly does dark sawrm help ultras vs tanks? Tanks primary attack misses while the attack still hits the ultralisk somewhere else on its body. So its 100% primary damage done, i believe. Splash isnt even reduced in dark swarm. Is it? From my testing it looks like the shot is just displaced, otherwise it works normally. If there are 2 ultras and you hit the one behind, it will hit the one in front 100%, and the one you actually shot will receive the secondary AOE, 50% dmg. | ||
Sero
United States687 Posts
On November 23 2017 19:41 LG)Sabbath wrote: From my testing it looks like the shot is just displaced, otherwise it works normally. If there are 2 ultras and you hit the one behind, it will hit the one in front 100%, and the one you actually shot will receive the secondary AOE, 50% dmg. And if you hit the one in front? Or what if there's only one/they're spread out? DS displaces the shot forward so of course hitting the one behind works that way. | ||
shall_burn
252 Posts
On November 23 2017 18:11 kogeT wrote: This is a well known bug with maelstormed units still moving. You can see it in FBH yt video where he shows different bugs. (no link though) I am so glad this thread has been created. edit: I can't find the video, though. Anyone? | ||
LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On November 23 2017 22:58 Sero wrote: And if you hit the one in front? Or what if there's only one/they're spread out? DS displaces the shot forward so of course hitting the one behind works that way. Yeah, if you hit only one ultra, it will receive the 50% dmg part of the shot. The 100% part of the area of effect will hit nothing. | ||
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1263 Posts
These pros study the game endlessly and flash for certain knows how optic flare works. He explained in his analysis vs hero | ||
Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 24 2017 00:04 LG)Sabbath wrote: Yeah, if you hit only one ultra, it will receive the 50% dmg part of the shot. The 100% part of the area of effect will hit nothing. So against 1ultra with ds, the primary attack misses, and it do splash only? You sure of this? If you compare it to cliffs, dragoons on high ground vs siegetanks on low ground. The attack "misses" but still hits the dragoon for primary damage. Or maybe iam wrong.. | ||
LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On November 24 2017 19:57 Foxxan wrote: So against 1ultra with ds, the primary attack misses, and it do splash only? You sure of this? If you compare it to cliffs, dragoons on high ground vs siegetanks on low ground. The attack "misses" but still hits the dragoon for primary damage. Or maybe iam wrong.. To clarify, the "main attack" is also splash. Yeah shooting from below a cliff will miss like with dark swarm, sometimes. Sometimes it will deal the 100% dmg, sometimes the 50%. This is the effect of the miss % that people talk about, it's not "miss completely", it's either hit 100%, or 50% in the case of the tank. Just tested this to make sure it's right. Swarm always "misses" (displaces the target). | ||
Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
On November 22 2017 21:31 LG)Sabbath wrote: I was just watching Effort's stream where he was himself obsing Flash vs Jaedong, and some interesting things happened that made me wonder about some spells: - Flash blinded 3 of JD's lurkers on a ramp, that were guarded by mutas, then tried to move up the ramp M&M. Doesn't the muta vision make this a completely pointless move? Anyway he lost all of his army there. Best guess: Since he was bothering to research blind at all, he was probably just fooling around? - At many points JD had to face a large amount of tanks (with 4-5 vults) and he used dark swarm with ultras. Isn't this pointless as well? No. They are only in the 50% splash radius. So that's a significant reduction. If it is unclear how miss chance works, read this. Side-note: while googling around, I saw this comment, is it true? Sounds like BS: Obviously bullshit. All DS does is give non-building ground units under it a 100% miss chance for projectile-based attacks… Why can't people ever spent a minute in-game to test something before they start spreading complete nonsense?! | ||
Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
No. They are only in the 50% splash radius. So that's a significant reduction. If it is unclear how miss chance works, read this. No they aint. You should read the thread, Siegetanks work differently. | ||
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
the thing is that the time it takes a DA to actually cast MC is a little bit "random" just like the delay it may take for a templar to cast storm you know depending on how quickly it gets to face exactly the target which is a bit random, depends on is it already in range, is it already facing the right direction, and something like whether the target hasn't changed angle by the time the DA has finished turning to that angle maybe something like that, I've tested this in a UMS where there is a minigame involving multiple DAs with MC, anyway I guess that's why they'd do a single DA select it's also more precise and handy than having all your DAs start moving when you just want to cast a MC also you want to know which one is going to cast it cause immediately after casting that DA is very vulnerable since it just lost all its shield etc and spamming MC on multiple units with multiple DAs will just result in innefficiency since you can't tell that the previous target will already have actually been MC'd before you cast the next since the thing can have this little random delay further you can actually improve the potential delay if you also make a angle move with your single DA before casting in range etc (like with templars, or arbiters, or most/all casters in the game) sometimes you will see the DA wait a few seconds to actually cast the instant spell when the target is moving even though the DA is in range and seems to follow the target's angle sometimes if you get it right it will indeed just cast it instantly | ||
Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
On November 25 2017 17:25 Foxxan wrote: No they aint. You should read the thread, Siegetanks work differently. If you had actually just skimmed the thread yourself, you'd have realized that multiple people in it stated the exact same thing I did. So I guess you only read the OP, which, as has been established by now, is wrong. | ||
Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 25 2017 18:54 Freakling wrote: If you had actually just skimmed the thread yourself, you'd have realized that multiple people in it stated the exact same thing I did. So I guess you only read the OP, which, as has been established by now, is wrong. I quote you and i only read the OP? Logic fails here aswell. I read your pathetic link, and there i found proof that you are wrong. Also in my quote to your last point is proof. You dont know wtf you are talking about? Siegetanks CAN SOMETIMTES DO 100% damage. | ||
Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
So let's back this up with some solid math behind it. I actually looked at some of the OpenBW code and had confirmation from Tscmoo regarding some mechanics, so this is hopefully accurate. Weapon splash radii (100%/50%/25%, in pixels [px]) can be found at BWAPI. Unit sizes are listed in Liquipdedia. The centre of a unit is generally the mid point of the collision box, rounded up to integer value. A unit takes splash damage according to the highest splash radius its collision box overlaps with. Acording to the OpenBw code, miss Chance offset actually seems to be just 30px, not 32 as I stated in the linked post (will correct that later). It also turns out that point of impact calculations for bullet_type_appear_at_target_unit-attacks (like Siege Tanks) are actually a bit complicated as they come with a default offset, which seems to be 1/4 collision box size (as far as I understand the OpenBW code). So let's consider the worst case scenario: the point sticking furthest out from an Ultralisk is its top left corner which is (-20,-17) pixels offset from its centre position. Shots coming from the exact angle of the diagonal would hit at (-9.5,-8) offset, so the distance to the corner would be (in the worst case) sqrt( 10.5² + 9² ) ≈ 13.8px . With a 100% splash radius of 10px and a miss chance offset of 30px, the Ultra is comfortably outside the full splash area. On the other hand it is well within the 25px radius for 50% damage. If Tank is straight below the tank, the overlap with the 100% radius is just 7.5+10-30 = -13.5, the overlap with the 25% radius is 7.5+25-32 = 2.5. So again the Ultralisk, in this best case scenario, is taking 50% damage. Only thing that could make a difference is the Ultralisks movement. When it is running in the direction of the tank, the delay between the shot's being fired and the damage being applied could mean that the Ultra gets within the 100% radius in that time (or, conversely, out of the 50% radius when running away from the tank). EDIT: Empirically Ultralisk can take 100% damage under Dark Swarm, but only if they run diagonally towards the Tank with upgraded speed. It follows the interesting fact that Zerg players can avoid damage from tank fire by chosing vertical or horizontal attack vectors. | ||
LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
A lot of the misunderstandings in this thread could be avoided with more reading and better wording. Your original statement was a bit vague so I guess it was not interpreted how you wanted. Ultralisks can also receive 100% dmg if some other unit is hit behind it. On cliffs (no swarm), they can sometimes get hit for 100% by themselves. | ||
shall_burn
252 Posts
On November 25 2017 18:11 ProMeTheus112 wrote: regarding DA mind control, I think the thing is if you have multiple DAs, it's possible that more than one would cast the spell on the same target if you have multiple selected depending on whether more than one of them are going to cast it on the same few frames after you give the order the thing is that the time it takes a DA to actually cast MC is a little bit "random" just like the delay it may take for a templar to cast storm you know depending on how quickly it gets to face exactly the target which is a bit random, depends on is it already in range, is it already facing the right direction, and something like whether the target hasn't changed angle by the time the DA has finished turning to that angle maybe something like that, I've tested this in a UMS where there is a minigame involving multiple DAs with MC, anyway I guess that's why they'd do a single DA select it's also more precise and handy than having all your DAs start moving when you just want to cast a MC also you want to know which one is going to cast it cause immediately after casting that DA is very vulnerable since it just lost all its shield etc and spamming MC on multiple units with multiple DAs will just result in innefficiency since you can't tell that the previous target will already have actually been MC'd before you cast the next since the thing can have this little random delay further you can actually improve the potential delay if you also make a angle move with your single DA before casting in range etc (like with templars, or arbiters, or most/all casters in the game) sometimes you will see the DA wait a few seconds to actually cast the instant spell when the target is moving even though the DA is in range and seems to follow the target's angle sometimes if you get it right it will indeed just cast it instantly From my personal experience, spamming always did the job quicker than cloning. And then you don't have to check their mana... But I may see how cloning has its uses and advantages too | ||
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