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Banner by ShaLLoW[BaY]
Terran FAQ + Show Spoiler +Introduction / General+ Show Spoiler +Eh, whos this noob? + Show Spoiler + Hi there, I'm Stylish, 24 year old swedish terran player. I'm not so well known in the community since I've never participated in any official tournaments or leagues but rather just hang out with my friends and play alot of ICCup. This, mostly because I don't feel comfortable when playing under preassure and I simply play for fun and enjoy the game.
However, since I've played alot of games and practiced with good swedish players such as; Naugrim, datoby, merz, zpux, sortof, special, runa, haypro, jimpo and many others, I've developed a fair amount of skill over the years. My previous high rank is A-.
My speciality is Terran vs Zerg, but my Terran vs Protoss is also pretty decent, however in the mirror matchup Terran vs Terran I lack enough skill to give alot of advice since I guess it's somewhere around B-/B rank. My current ICCup IDs are 404.Stylish, StylishVODs, HaHoHiHahahh (yep) and some smurfs.
My favourite drink is ofcourse the liquid of heaven AKA Redbull and if you ever want to become great at brood war you have to drink atleast two cans/day, but whenever I feel that the quantity of Redbull is getting dangerous I switch to diet coke!
On my freetime I enjoy playing brood war (I don't play other games), playing the guitar, singing, working out and hanging out with my friends partying, watching movies and whatnot. Currently I'm working as a substitute at schools to get some cash, but this fall I will start studdying medicine and then probably quit brood war.
My favourite players are Flash and Jaedong, but ofcourse Savior, nada, iloveoov and boxer has a special place in my heart!
What's this thread about? + Show Spoiler +Since I've decided to quit playing broodwar this fall I wanted to share my knowledge with the terranplayers out there. I've gotten to know alot of good builds over the time and I don't want them to be forgotten.
This thread is for all terranplayers who are in need of guidence and help with general questions and terran buildorders.
Brood war is a tough game and as a newcomer it's really good to get some help from an experianced player. Good buildorders are key to improve your mechanics and overall skill and will help you to evolve faster.
This thread includes many First Person VODs where I explain buildorders and execute them while commentating, buildorderlists, replays, but also alot of written information and answers to alot of questions that has been posted in this thread.
Alot of the buildsorders are taken from progamers, but there are also many that I've invented myself or learned from other people.
If you have questions that are not answered in this FAQ feel free to post them in the thread. I'm a newbe, give me some general tips will ya? + Show Spoiler +When utterly new to the game, it's important that you stick with just a few buildorders. It's not good to use cheese for improving your skill so I would suggest that you execute standard, straight up buildorders every game to improve you mechanics at a fast rate.
Under TvZ and TvP here in FAQ i will explain what buildorders to use. And I would also suggest that you watch the General Tips VODs which can be found under "Extras".
Finally, Brood War is hard, it will take alot time, patience and redbulls to get good. This thread is only to help you out but you will have to do all the hard work. Many times there are no easy answers or solutions.
I wish you good luck I'm sure you'll climb the ladder soon! Why do you have a FAQ? + Show Spoiler +There have been alot of questions asked in this thread, and many times I feel like I have to answer the same questions over and over again.
To avoid this, I made this FAQ, with help from TL.net user Alexpnd, and here you can find most of the answers I've written in the many pages of this thread. Please try to find your question in the FAQ before asking in the thread. Lets move on to questions that have actually been asked!I always end up supply blocked at some point. How do you recommend microing and macroing (already difficult), while balancing supplies? Do you just build them as a reflex? + Show Spoiler + In early game it's not hard making suplydepots. Keep practicing the buildorders and you will learn in time when to place them.
When doing an attack you can build supply when you go back to macro and in late game you seldom need building supply. There is no easy way. It's just like macroing, you have to go back and do it every now and then and practice to get the timings better.
Basically, to keep up with supplies, its one supply when you're on two CCs and 2macrobuildings (Barracks or factories) and if you get anything else (more Macrobuildings) its two supplies.
How are you moving the screen so fast, are you using pure hotkeys for moving through the screen, or like clicking your mini map or what? It seems like your mouse sensitivity is higher than standard? + Show Spoiler + I use logitech G3 laser, 800dpi I think and about middle speed, without acceleration. I guess I move my hand fast. I use a combination of hotkeys, click on mini map and scroll screen with mouse when I move the screen.
How do you record your VODS? + Show Spoiler + I use GunCam. When a recording is finished i select the video in guncam and press "export video as AVI" -> append selected film -> As Avi -> Xvid Film quality 50 -> name the file and then its finished. Files shouldn't be too big. Then I use Camtasia to add commentary and virtual dub to get it together. I upload at Filefront.com.
I love your stylish mixerskills, what songs do you use? + Show Spoiler + So far I've had questions for these tracks. This is just temporary in the FAQ, I will add them under each gamevod later on so you know what is played when its played.
I've got some falling to do - Unknown Virtual Insanity - Jamiroquai Jesus Children of America - Steve Wonder I'd Rather Dance With You - King of Convenience Baby Driver - Simon & Garfunkel Octavatium - Dream theatre [Solo @ 10:00] Stoppin' the love - KT Tunstall
How should I use hotkeys to my advantage in general?+ Show Spoiler +This is discussed in another great thread here on teamliquid, made by DAy[9]. Check out his podcast about mechanics, and then I also made some input on page 19 and 20. Check it out, I hope it helps. The thread TvZ+ Show Spoiler +General+ Show Spoiler +What build should I do? + Show Spoiler +Different builds for different maps. But if you want to improve fastest way possible, you should play on somewhat standard maps and execute the 9min Push. It's my standard build and I suggest that you practice it. You will need to know how to adjust it to various zergstrategies but you can find that information here in FAQ or in my VODs. Zerg Hot Keys + Show Spoiler + Buildings 2 main cc 3 natural 4 rax 5 rax
Units 1 marines 2 marines 3 medics 4 tanks 5 vessel
Late game I don’t have hotkeys for buildings, when I set rally point I do ctrl 4 5 6 7 8 and set rally then take other buildings and do the same. This way I only need to select my tanks and vessel and hotkey them to 4 and 5 again which is pretty fast.
When does the zerg usually take his gas? How do I know what build he's going to use? + Show Spoiler + Gas after pool means he's going 3 hatch but slightly faster lair (or speed lings) than usual with lower economy or fewer lings.
Gas at the same time as pool, or slightly before pool, means 2 hatch. Be sure to scout if he adds Lair quickly after mining the gas. If he doesn’t get lair fast it means he's going for a speed ling rush before muta or lurk, usually muta.
Gas after 3rd hatch is standard 3hatch. From there they usually go mutalisk, but they can also do a lurker opening. If they do lurker opening they often add an evolution chamber as well, so be sure to look for one when you scan.
If they don’t take gas and don’t make a 3rd hatch they usually proxy a third hatch somewhere on the map.
When scouting with the scv be sure to look at what pops out of the eggs. If he has 3 larvae saved up when the pool finishes this usually means he's doing 6 or 8 lings, in which case you will need to make a bunker. If he has 1 or 2 larvae saved up he usually make 4 lings and then only try to kill your scv.
What about turret timings and placement + Show Spoiler + Usually you will not need more than 8 turrets. Three in main, natural and two or one at a location where he might want to abuse you, for example the macroarea.
On some maps its harded to defend and you will need to place your turrets differently. For example on Othello I might need 5 turrets on the cliff to my natural instead of 3, especially if my opponent’s mutalisks are most likely to go there first. In this case you can have less turrets in you main and keep more units in your main instead, since your natural will be pretty well protected.
2hatch mutalisk have mutalisks finnished at 6minutes. 3hatch mutalisks will finnish at 7 minutes. One thing to remember is, when you add turrets later than usual it is best to start making the turrets in the location closest to your enemy’s base or the location he is most likely to harass first. This way your other turrets can be up as late as 7:20 or 7:30. If you're there directly with a hotkeyed group of marines behind your turret line the mutas won't be able to do much damage.
That’s why you sometimes need 5 turrets on the natural cliff because marines are hard to micro there.
If your opponent continues to produce mutalisks you should continue to produce turrets accordingly.
Will a single mine be enough to kill a larva? + Show Spoiler + Yes one mine will kill all three larvae, three mines will kill an egg.
Mech vs Speedlings? + Show Spoiler + If he upgrades ling speed first you upgrade vult speed and move out with 3 vults and then lift cc to exp if you want to do a 1factory -> exp build. If he makes lair first, place exp at the spot to get economical advantage. Then add armory and 2 factories (total of 3). Add an ebay as you transfer to your exp and then cut scvs to be able to make 3 goliaths and upgrade armor, range + make a few turrets in time. This has actually worked really well for me on iccup. Or you can do the Mech vs 2 Hatch which is explained in the VOD of the same name.
Would you recommend sending out a slightly earlier scout at low ranks? + Show Spoiler + When I play iccup, especially on low ranks I make 10rax and 10scout to be on the safe side. If you do this, or anything else that might delay your economy(such as making an early bunker) don’t care so much about the supply count of your build but rather the order in which you build buildings. You can adapt the strat to early scout/10 rax with for example a marine stop production for 5-6 seconds at a certain point or whatever.
So yes, I think it’s good to play safe, specially on low ranks of iccup.
I’d like to know what to do when zerg just has too many units?(duh) + Show Spoiler + Well basically if your first push gets completely stopped it means that he either did a good counter build or that his mechanics are just better.
Sometimes there no other answer than to improve your mechanics by playing more games.
A general tip is to resort to harrass when the opponent is too strong for open battle. Dropships and multitask are key here while macroing at home.
Having trouble with zergs taking double gas on longinus sunks up and makes few lurks and 4 gas + Show Spoiler + 9minpush should be able to punish him before the hivetech kicks in if he decides to take a fast third base. Specially if he makes no mutalisks, since then you won't need to make turrets but can make more barracks instead.
If you somehow cannot defeat him with the 9minpush, switch things up alittle and do the a-yu-mi build. After that he won't dare taking a third again ^^
When should i place my comsats if i face 3hatch or 2hatch, and where do I scan? + Show Spoiler + Don't be lazy, watch the VODs! TvZ 9min Push and TvZ 2Hatch counter.
Delaying scans for as long as possible will give you greater economy and more units.
There is no way you're going to be able to scan 3 hatches with 2 scans if he places them far apart. You just have to look at other things to be sure what tech he goes. For example look at his larvas, if you see that he saves up 9 larvas and not morphing them to eggs it usually means that he is going mutalisks. Otherwise you can assume that he is doing some other tech.
Also be sure to not always scan straight on the hatcherys, but rather between them so you might actually scan over a larger area of creep than you would if you scan right on top of a hatchery.
Late game, I move around to kill his expansion and I end up killing his third, but the zerg dark swarms my natural and pours in lurkers. How should prevent this, or in the worse case, defend against this? + Show Spoiler + When doing a push against zerg with vessel tanks and marines usually you aim for his natural/main. This way he cannot sneak through with swarm and a lot of units to your natural. While doing the attack you can sometimes use the units in you natural not to reinforce but rather to send towards expansions. Either walk there or make drops to be able to get them there faster.
If you somehow end up being somewhere with your army and you notice delifers and lurkers running towards your natural, bring all the units you have in the natural forward to meet the zerg units as far out as possible. If he gets to burrow under dark swarm in you natural you are toast!
Any tips or strategies on not getting vessels sniped? + Show Spoiler + There is no easy way to protect the vessels. Try to keep them in range of your marines and always watch out for scourges, if you see any move the vessel back to safety. In late game when zerg has ultras and defilers it can be useful to sacrifice some vessels to get important irradiates off. Beware of plague though if they are stacked.
When do you usually get a dropship and how do you use them? + Show Spoiler + I usually drop at the same time as I’m making a push. If dropships are used with multitasking, it will cause more damage.
When dropping in zerg main or expansion target nydus first if he has one, then drones -> spire -> pool -> defiler/evo chambers. If you are doing a timing push and the zerg has just recently gotten his defiler mound up then target the defiler mound before spire. But you must know that you're able to kill it before consume is finished.
I usually have 7 marines and 1 medic in a dropship.
I've noticed that Idra tends to get 2+ attack on tanks and get 3 fac tank going against hive play. How do you feel this stacks against the normal 2 port M&M play? + Show Spoiler + I usually do not resort to mass tanks. That is good if you take expansions and plan to play defensively but my style is rather to multitask and be aggressive. I like to add a third Star Port if I get more than 2 gasses and sometimes even switch to battle cruisers, if only some.
So what’s the counter to the ROFL strat? + Show Spoiler + It can't be countered. SCVs are invincible. Screw you zerg players. [input endless laughter]
In the EE timing, getting the +1 amour upgrade makes marines die in 3 hits to lurkers and sunkens, but if you stim it does back to 2....what is the point of the armour? + Show Spoiler + Usually, most units won't be healed before the attack occurs. However, after the time it takes for the sunkens to fire the first few shots, other marines will be at full health thus taking 3 hits from sunkens/lurkers. This, plus the armor will help vs mutalisks and zerglings, it will also be great when his lurkers are morphed. Attack upgrade is important vs mutalisks and 1armor lings. Hence, both 1 attack and 1 armor is key in this build.
What builds do you like for Longinus? + Show Spoiler + Longinus is great for 14 cc at pos 6 and 3. Ayumi build is good for pos 11.
What to do vs a zerg who expands alot or techs fast to hive? + Show Spoiler + This means he cannot spend that money on units, thus you can punish him with an earlier attack such as the 9minpush. If he overextends himself by taking a fast 4th base, the logic works the same, he will spend money on buildings rather than spending it on units and thus can also be punished by a faster attack.
How do you generally play 2base terran vs 3base zerg or 3base terran vs 4base zerg?+ Show Spoiler + 2base terran vs 3base zerg lategame.
Since its lategame, usually it means that your first big attack wasn't succesful enough to end the game.
Zerg is going to tech to hive and try to expand one more time. What you need to do here is to put constant preassure on his different bases and try to sneak in a drop here and there to force him to produce constant units and therefor he cannot tech to ultralisks. In this case you will need 8+ rax and 2starport vessel/dropship action. If you at any point notice that you wont be able to stop him from securing a 4th base you need to take a third yourself and either add a second factory and start producing tanks if you mean to be defensive for a while before moving out or add a third starport (if the expansion has gas) and definately 3-4 more barracks if you're going to be offensive.
3base terran vs 4base zerg(ultratech usually) Since my playstyle is very agressive, I'd rather add a third starport to make vessels and keep constant preassure. This way you will most likely irradiate his ultralisks far from your base and the action will take place far away from your expansions. Be sure to use the lone factory to make vultures/mines aswell and always send scvs out in different directions to scout any possible small group of zergunits with a defiler heading towards your expansions.
If you are more of a defensive player you should rather make a second factory and sometimes even a third, specially if you only have 1 starport already. 2-3fact tanks are able to defend vs ultrlisks pretty well and when you make a move with 10+ tanks you are going to be quite strong vs any groundunits.
The reason why you cannot make vessles without tanks if you are a defensive player is that you cannot afford irradiate on ultralisks that are close to your base since they will actually just cause more damage if the health hasn't gone down alot before they attack you.
I do suggest practicing the first method because it will help you improve your multitasking and being aggressive overall wich is a great attribute vs any zergplayers imo.
How do you stop a 4, 5 or 6pool when making rax at 11?+ Show Spoiler +- Wall vs 6pool.
This should not be a problem, wall will be complete before zerglings arrive. 6zerglings require you to bring 3-4 scvs for repair.
- Wall vs 5/4pool.
In this case your build is being softcountered. You will sometimes not be able to finnish the second suply and thus not repair it. Now its important that you bring 7-9 SCVs to the wall as soon as possible, while making a bunker close to your CC. Rally the first marine to the bunker and block the wall with scvs at the location of the unfinnished suply. This will stall him long enough for the bunker to complete. After the first marine is finnished, lift of the rax and float it to your main and do a 2rax aca build from there. You will need to micro your only marine back and forth and be ready to repair the bunker. Its not easy.
- 11 rax vs 6,5,4pool.
Again, this is not the ideal rushtiming for zerg, 4-5pool is much faster/better. Here you do the same thing basically. Bring SCVs stacked to the ramp, make bunker close to CC and rally marines to bunker. Be sure to place your first rax in a position so that the marine doesn't have to walk far to get to the bunker. Once you have 1 marine in the bunker, bring back the scvs. Same reaction for 4-5-6pool in this scenario. Follow up with 2rax academy usually.
If you do this and still lose, it's probably because of your micro. Its not easy facing lingrush when you do 11 rax, but its doable. Watch my 4poolstop in the VODthread if you haven't already. 9min Push+ Show Spoiler +How do you deal with a 9 pool when you make the TvZ 9minPush's build with the second supply at 16? + Show Spoiler + When barrack is finnished, move SCV to expansionlocation and place a bunker. Cut one SCV to be able to make 2 marines before the second suply is finnished. From here continue with the 9min push.
Zerg goes for 9pool speed when I’m going 9min push and zerg always prevents me from taking natural with lings outside my base. Conclusion is that I get too poor and low scv count and zerg overwhelms. Do you change your build order when z goes for that kinda strat? + Show Spoiler + You have to switch the build, making an early gas/aca after first or second supply to make a later CC after bat/medic is out.
From 9poolspeed you cannot really continue with the 9minpush strat, you have to switch things up, but the zerg gets so economically behind that i don't mind playing vs a zerg that opens 9pool speed.
How do I handle lingattacks early on? + Show Spoiler + Since you have early 2rax it means you will have quite a lot of marines early on. In fact you have more marines early on than the fast academy 3rax build, especially during the time when zerg attacks with early speed lings. Try to keep your marines on the ramp and have rally point with the rax on top of the ramp. Practice your reaction time and at the moment he runs in with lings you take scvs from natural and click on a mineralpatch in your main. Stop the scvs when they are blocking the marines.
How often do you actually move out exact at the 9min mark in real games? + Show Spoiler + Sometimes the push is delayed. But usually only with a couple of seconds depending on how well you multitask micro, scv scout and execute the build order at the same time. Usually if you need to add another turret or two, you can miss one scv production or two, and your cash will still be enough for making the tech building. What differs most is the supply when you move out. If zerg had a successful mutaharass you will have like 5-15 less supply when you move out.
But if you think of it, other strategies, like the standard 9:40 push will also be delayed if his mutas are successful. When his mutas arrive at your base, if you've done the build properly, they'll most likely meet a wall of 3 turrets with marines behind it.
When is it an Ideal time to put down more barracks in the 9minpush. At about 75-80 supply add more? + Show Spoiler + After you started making Vessel + upgr 2-1 Add them 1 by one rather than saving up 450 for three at the same time. This will get you more marines and enough for a dropship.
Is it decent idea to add 2nd fac as same time as port or after? + Show Spoiler + I usually go with a second port in late game rather than second factory but it depends. Heavy lurkerbuild without hive should be countered with 2 fact not 2 port, in which case i usually add the second factory while building the starport In this case you will have to delay the making of a Vessel, and can invest in a dropship or a wraith instead.
How do you adjust the 9min push to what the zerg does? + Show Spoiler + If zerg rushes to hive, it means that he's spending money on tech. This means he cannot spend that money on units, thus you can punnish him with an earlier attack such as the 9minpush. If he overextends himself by taking a fast 4th base, the logic works the same, he will spend money on buildings rather than spending it on units and thus can also be punnished by a faster attack.
Here is a list of some adjustments for the 9minpush.
If hive is morphing when your vessel is out, push out.
4 bases lair tech when your vessel is out, push out.
3 bases with lair tech when vessel is out, wait for second vessel, skip dropship.
Lair tech when second vessel is out, wait for 2-1 upgrades, 7 tanks and 3vessels.
2hatch mutalisk, make bunker in natural and make a rax instead of factory. Tech if he's switching to lurkers, otherwise add more raxes and attack him when you feel safe from mutas.
9pool, make bunker after rax is finnished, then CC, continue with 9minpush.
9pool speed, make refinary/aca after second suply, make 4marines 2bats 1medic and move out to force him make sunkens while you place cc at spot or to lift off from your main.
Ultralisk rush (2base), when starport is finnished make a drop and drop his main, be sure to make some bats for this drop. from here do SKTerran and vultures with mines.
3hatch lurker. Stay on two raxes for a while, add second factory while making startport, make dropship first. Make a few bunkers in your natural and research armor first.
2hatch lurker, make second factory while making starport. make a wraith first to kill overlords, add bunkers in natural and one in main. Be careful, he might do a dualdrop or allin front.
Often times I see people do a build that gets both their Ebay nad Academy before their 2nd Rax. Do they just get both ebay and academy before the 2nd rax to have more rines/ +1 attack to fight off against mutas? + Show Spoiler + Thats to get +1 for the muta harass. Also early academy will allow faster stim and a faster bat/medic so you can move out and pressure his natural expansion without having to worry too much about zerglings.
If you do this, you should follow up by adding 2 barracks, for a total of 3 barracks and then try to get mapcontrol in the early midgame (before lurkers are morphed).
Do you follow your main 9min standard build until you scout a variation in the zerg’s strategy? Like let’s say you see a 2 hatch muta. Do you kick off with 9min bo, then switch to the "2 hatch counter", because you don’t know from the start whether he is going 2 hatch? + Show Spoiler + Most of my games I start with 11 rax and then scout so I can adapt to what he does. But that doesn't mean that I start every game knowing I will try the 9minpush.
But I suggest lower ranked players to do this, since playing 1 strat over and over again will improve your play faster.
Usually you will only need how to adapt to 2hatchmuta or 3hatchmuta. Also good to know how to open vs 9pool or 9poolspeed.
On your 9min standard bo, Why is ur Depot at 16? Won’t that create a supply block? + Show Spoiler + Depot at 16 will not stall marine production if you make 1 marine before CC. If you want to feel safer and make 2 marines before the cc you can add supply on 14 or 15 instead.
Is there a reason you did not apply pressure to the zerg before he got mutas( to make him put a few more sunks down, which you could of easily done? + Show Spoiler + I don't put pressure because the 9minpush usually doesn't include firebats. So it’s a bit risky moving out like that but it’s possible. This strat is more about letting zerg get his third up and punish him before its effective. You can move out a little bit though and hopefully he will make some sunkens
What to do vs 2hatch muta into guardians? + Show Spoiler + This is explained in my 2 Hatch counter VOD.
When you adjust to 2hatch muta with the 9minpush you add a 3rd rax instead of the factory at the timing you place a fact.
Keep scanning his main to see if he switches to lurkers. If he doesn’t switch to lurkers, keep making turrets and barracks and move out when you have enough units. If he's teching towards hive, you can either add a total of 5 rax and try to kill him at a timing before his guardians are finished, or you can tech towards starport and add 2/3 star ports making wraiths.
If he switches to lurkers after a few mutalisks you should also tech up.
The most annoying thing is when zerg sends muta to your main while sending speed lings to kill turrets. On destination I pretty much lose to the initial 11 mutas alone. How do you deal with this? + Show Spoiler + Since you don't move out to take his third with a bunch of units this strategy is even safer vs mutalisks imo.
You will have 18-20 marines when he comes with mutalisks. Split them up into 10 and 10 and stay close to the turrets with 2 medics in each group. 2-3 turrets + 10marines backing up is enough for 9 or 11 mutalisks, rine reinforcements coming all the time as well. There shouldn't be a problem if you practice and the micro is executed well.
Be sure to place the turrets on 3 spots, natural, main and another area in your base to cover the gap window of the natural/main turrets and your macro area.
If you play artosis strat and don't move out for his third its ofcourse even safer vs mutalisks since you will have like 5-6 more marines at that time but then you take away the advantage of that build in the early midgame.
Whats the difference between you 9min push, the artosis build and petzerglings build? + Show Spoiler + Ok so the difference between "artosis strat", "my strat" and "petzerglings strat" for those that have asked.
Artosis strategy is really solid. Its also pretty safe. The main issue with this strategy is that you get 2 suplys before the CC (at 19) academy before second barrack and then you tech towards vessel once you have 3 barracks. You stop marineproduction for a little while on 6 marines to be able to afford building 2barracks and an ebay at the perfect timing. You start building medics and firebats once the academy is finnished. Your tech will be 40 seconds after the 9min Push but you will be able to preassure the opponents third or natural.
9minpush vs artosis strat: (i'll call them that even if we are not the inventors to make it easier)
With artosis strategy you will have CC on 19 which is slightly slower (9minpush at 18)but slightly safer(because 2 marines instead of 1 when place CC), this howerver is no big issue. A major difference is that you will stop production at 6 marines to afford constant scv production and the arcitecture needed for this build. At 5 minutes you will have 6 marines and be pretty vulnurable to speedlings.
(If you have good scoutingskills and are able to stay alive very long this sometimes is not a problem coz you can make more marines if you see him massing lings, but most of the time he will be able to kill your scv before you know if there is going to be some sort of early attack.)
with the 9minpush you will have 11 marines at 5 minutes for the same lingrush.
(this is very good on iccup for example when people usually try something like that, however if the zerg infact doesn't rush you, then its not ideal. Since the scv dies before im able to scout this usually i go with the safer strat and 11 marines is much better than 6. However if im actually scouting that he cannot be doing any rush like this then i can also stop marineproduction and tech faster, its good to know a build, but when you know it in and out you have to know how to adjust aswell.)
At 6 minutes you will be able to have 10marines 2 bats and 2 medics with artosis strat. This is when you should move towards zergs natural or his third expansion (if he has one, usually doesn't so push towards natural to make him make sunkens). With the 9min Push you will have 11 marines and 2 medics at this point.
(Now here its obviously better with 2medics and 2firebats. You will be able to put preassure on the zergs natural. You may ofcourse move out with 11rines + 2medics and get the same effect most of the times but its abit more risky. So in this case artosis strat is better imo.)
Your factory will start making at about 6:10 with artosis strat and 5:30 with the 9min push.
(This is obviously in favour for the 9min push. Your vessel will be out sooner, both strats have 3 tanks by then and you can get 40 seconds faster 2-1 upgrades.)
Artosis strategy will let you have enough units in the early midgame to be able to take out zergs third sometimes. The 9min push will not alow this usually because you are macroing from 2 barracks and not 3 as in artosis strategy.
(Its ofcourse very good to be able to take his third out and still be able to defend vs mutalisks, or cause him to waste his mutalisks to try to kill your units. If he has very good mutalisk harass this can sometimes be risky specially when moving up a ramp to kill an expansion.)
You move out with 1 vessel 3tanks +units at 9minutes and 40 seconds with artosis startegy. You move out with 1 vessel 3tanks +units at 9minutes with the 9min Push.
(This is obviously better for the 9min push, but know that with artosis strategy the zerg might have lost his third, and usually your units that killed it will be dead aswell. When you move out to take it he can grab his opportunity to make more damage with his mutalisks while many units are out of town. So he can sometimes make you pay when you make him pay. Specially if he has produced lings and mutalisks for a "backstab". With the 9min push you will be safe from this and let the zerg get his eco going, but move out in time for it not to be effective. And I like that.)
So in general the major differences with these strategies are:
Artosis strategy will make you more powerful in the early midgame, but tech slower towards vessel. The 9min push will make you abit safer from mutalisks (since you stay at home with units) and tech up faster but you will let the zerg get his third up with ease. The 9minpush is stronger in lategame because faster 2-1 upgrades and more vessels/tanks for lategame, but also the zerg will be stronger if he doesn't take alot of damage with the push since he gets his third up. In my oppinion: A stronger terran armys power increases exponentially if zerg has no swarm. This is better for the 9minpush, you have bigger army zerg has bigger army will benefit you rather than smaller army vs smaller army.
The strength of the 9min push is to attack just in time for the zergs third to not provide enough economyboost and drop his main at the same time with dmatrix drop. This is usually a big problem for the zergs. You can also decide to use that dropship to drop his third, but i like the dmatrix thing to make him waste scourges and take out important buildings.
With the 9min Push you have the possibility to scan right before you move out, and if you see him powering you can wait for second vessel, scan again and if you see still no hive wait for 2-1 and move out. You should do the same with artosis strategy but the same moves will be delayed with 40 seconds. Also the zergs eco is damaged (IF you are successful with the early preassure, this is not certain) so the delay with 40 seconds is not as big as it seems when the zerg doesnt hive.
I play the 9min Push because it fucks up the zerg timings and is easier to execute. You don't have to focus so much on multitask early game and you have only 2 scvs building things (1 for suply 1 for tech) which gives you greater economy. Its also safer vs a mutalisk/ling backstab in the early midgame. Both strategies are good and i suggest that you learn both of them if you want to play standard vs same opponent over and over again to mix things up.
Now to move on to petzerglings strategy (i'll call it his strat to make it easier).
The big difference here is that he places 1 suply before CC instead of 2. This will make your economy greater, and you are able to tech to vessel on 3 barracks instead of two and only lose 5-10 seconds on your factory timing. This is better in every way than the 9min push if you scout him on the first try, but too risky if you don't. I am going to make a VOD of how to execute a build like this because it is indeed better on a two player map. As you've noticed I've shown the 9minpush on 4playermaps (also good for 3playermaps) but not on 2playermaps. Thats because 1suply-> exp is stronger in all ways than 2suply expansion.
However i suggest that you use the 9min push as your standard strategy anyway, because if you want to play one strategy over and over again to improve your mechanics and gamesense its not good to switch things up too much and the 1suply-exp really only works on a 2player map on a regular basis
Thats my thought on these matters, if anyone else has another oppinion please explain why and i'll try to answer to that.
edit* I have not read through petzerglings strategy that careful, so all this thinking is if he posted the correct way to execute such a build. But im fairly certain by taking a brief look at it that its solid.
In the end, ofcourse its better to adjust between these three builds and choose the best one for every game, but this only if you are already a good player. For the lesser player i suggest not to mix things up so much to improve mechanics faster and get used to a build.
All builds are precise and good. Only that artosis build hasn't the full buildorder written out. Also i guess i chose the 9minpush because of my bias towards flash!
What is the counter to a 2 base hydra build? When I am playing the standard 9min push + Show Spoiler + Assume you mean 2hatch lurker. If not it’s pretty much the same counter. Get a second factory while adding starport, get additional bunkers in your natural. Rape him with tanks.
What is a good way to adjust this build to 3 hatch lurker and lings - if Z decides not to go muta? + Show Spoiler + There are different ways to adjust. Normally i would add a second factory and delay the vessel for a bit and push out with about 5-6tanks and a vessel. Or you could add more rax pressure him early with m&m keeping him in his base, while slower teching to 2fact tanks and a vessel. While delaying the vessel you will have some extra gas and can use that to make a dropship. This is especially good if he has no spire, since lurkers are so slow.
Remember that if you don't see a spire you should use the turretmoney to either make more rax and be able to pressure him or make 2 bunkers and don’t stop scv production.
How do I counter 2 hatch lurks (Fast Expand and/or quick Hive) + Show Spoiler + 2Hatch lurk usually means all-in at the front or drop in main and natural at the same time. Therefore you have to make 2 medics and then 2 bats and
move outside zergs natural for a while to force him to make sunkens. Then draw back after you've delayed the lurkers for a little while and build 2 bunkers at home. When moving out with the first 10marines 2bats and 2medics, bring 1 scv also to scout expansions. If he has one you will be able to kill it with this initial troop.
When you have 6 marines use an scv to scout towards his natural. If you see him getting speed before the scv dies with his lings you will have to be aware of a ling break. I usually make a bunker for this, keep my units in my ramp and be ready to pull scvs.
Continue with the 9minpush build, but when the star ort is finished i make a second factory and science facility at the same time, i skip second ebay and also the first upgrade should be armor and not attack. The 100 gas that was meant for +1 attack in the second ebay will now go into the factory.
Don’t make a drop ship, 2hatch lurker is aggressive build, you cannot afford leaving your base this early.
Add rax for a total of 4 rax, 2fact 1 port and remember to keep some units in your main awaiting lurker drop, but close enough to the natural that you can siege up on the cliff. Also remember that you only need 1 vessel. After that i usually make a drop ship and pretty much use my gas to make tanks.
Once the vessel is out you can scan, since if its not out you need all energy to scan drops and whatnot, his base and see if he's going hive or if he's trying to macro up. The important thing to know is that once you've defended the early attack or drop, you are ahead, specially with 2 factories making tanks, so you don't have to be hasty. Move out when you feel comfortable doing so, for example with 6+tanks. Always time your attack if you see him teching to hive. You know approximately how long it will take for your troops to arrive at his base. Aslong as
you get there before his consume is finished its always good to have the largest amount of tanks you can have and still make it in time.
If he's not teching to hive, you can very well wait for 8+ tanks or whatever because you have a more economical opening if he 2hatches and will only get further and further ahead as the game goes on.
One important thing is, that you probably need to add atleast 2 bunkers pretty early on in your expansion vs a 2hatch lurkerbuild. This, and also as soon as you notice a drop coming, be prepared that he will most likely drop both main and expansion at the same time.
How do I counter 3 hatch lurks (Fast Expand and/ or quick Hive)? + Show Spoiler + 3 hatch lurker is a pretty strong opening imo sine it’s so uncommon. I will mostly cover the 3hatch expansion build here because it’s not often I've faced 3hatch-> hive from only 2 bases so I guess I have to play it some
more before being able to give you the proper counter. Anyway vs 3hatch lurk->exp->hive; I usually go with the same 9minpush vs 3hatch lurker with the exception that I don’t make turrets but 2 bunkers instead. You can also do the same 10marine 2bats 2medics pressure in the early game to force him making sunkens and let an scv scout the map. Proceed with the 9minpush but after star port make science facility and factory and a second ebay.
When control tower is finished, make a drop ship. This will give you an additional 125 gas for not making a fast vessel which can be layed on +upgrade in ebay and making a fact. You will be a little gas short but then just wait a few seconds to make the tank or whatever. The point is to use early drop ship at his exp or his main because his lack of spire and at the same time provide you with enough gas to make tanks from 2 factories. You can pretty much delay the first vessel, start making it when you have started making your 3rd and 4th tank. While it's making make a 5th and a
6th tank and push out when vessel is finished usually. Of course make another scan before moving out and if you see him not teching to hive wait for
2-1 and then move out.
How do I counter 3 hatch mutas ( stays into mutas)? + Show Spoiler + Do the 9minpush build, it will rape muta only build on 3hatcherys. Just remember to notice that his mutas are reinforced so you can place more turrets. Start out with the same amount and then add more one by one.
Fast tech to vessels, fast tech to 2-1, pretty fast 5rax going and easy to defend vs mutas in early game. Move out when second vessel is finished, or even wait for 2-1 upgrades if he's not teching to hive. From here, of course follow up with a second star port and also get energy upgrade for vessels.
How do I counter 3 hatch mutas (quick hive)? + Show Spoiler + Do the standard 9minpush.
Help! Early Mutaling attack on my choke! + Show Spoiler +When placing a bunker, don't place it in a vulnerable location. If placing a bunker, it’s always good to place a supply depot right next to it, to hinder zerg from surrounding it, but don’t block so scvs cannot repair. Narrow passages are your friend in these kinds of situations. Place a bunker closer to the ramp and then a supply close to it, this will create a narrow passage, and when the zerg goes for the attack, pull marines back to the ramp and then attack while reinforcing with the marines that are already in your main. This will be 1 bunker and approx 15-20 marines in a narrow passage at a ramp, zerg cannot break this with lings/muta that early. Here is a replay of a game where zerg tried something like this, however i don't use bunker, but i use the ramp and narrow passages to my advantage. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=9362 A-Yu-Mi+ Show Spoiler +When do I go for this build order? + Show Spoiler + When the zerg is doing 3hatch muta or lurker. You will be able to break his sunkenline before his units are ready and hopefully win the game.
I wouldn't suggest doing the a-yu-mi vs a 2hatch build.
If I play against other build than 3 Hatch (so 2 Hatch in most cases) is this build still viable? + Show Spoiler + In the case you already started executing the build and find out he's doing 2hatch. Skip SCVs earlier and make a faster academy. Get 4 medics 1 round earlier, and attack.
Zerg will be forced to defend the attack with his mutalisks rather than attacking your base. If you add E-bay when you move out you will be able to have turrets up in time when he has killed your units. Because you have no range, sunkens + mutalisk will probably kill your attack. But it will give you time to build turrets.
From there he will have few drones (coz he made sunkens from 2hatch build) and you will have turrets + 4barracks. Defend until you get range and then usually move out, or just keep making scvs, defend and tech up to vessels.
What should I do if the zerg has like 10-12 lings outside my base and just waits for me to move out, then backstab me? + Show Spoiler + After your medic round make 2 bats 1rine and 1 medic and still move out. If he decides to backstab you there are 2 bats and a medic who can clean lings up with the help of scvs. If there is a ramp, pull scvs and block, what happens is basically that zerg has his units at your base while he really needs them at home.
However if he anticipates your strategy and place 6 sunkens while he is stabbing your base you are pretty much at a disadvantage. The A-Yu-Mi is not a standard build, it has its weaknesses.
Is it a bad idea to use A-yu-mi on Destination, because of the long distance between base and the dual bridges at the nat? + Show Spoiler + Yes I do not like to use the A-yu-mi on maps where it is hard to sunken break, such as maps with far distances or narrow passages in front of the sunkens. Destination is a great map for SKTerran and Mech.
What is the counter to A-yu-mi? + Show Spoiler + The general counter for the a-yu-mi build is to 2hatch lurker and succeed with a hold lurker or a drop.
If you're already on 3 hatch place 6 sunkens and tech to lurkers+drop. Lurkers is the better option either way since terran will have slow tech and drop can really hurt a terran without tanks.
When you're doing the A-Yu-Min, you're doing a 1rax FE. I know that when Zerg players scout this, they usually like to apply some early ling pressure, which often leads to the Terran player investing in a bunker. How does this affect the timing of the push? + Show Spoiler + I think I talk about this in the Game-VOD about A-Yu-Mi. Since you are constantly producing marines from a 10rax, only 8lings will cause you to make a bunker. If this is the case then you must skip 2 scvs (1 from each cc) the round before you make the 3 extra raxes. This requires that you know the exact timing of when to place the raxes.
Actually this is not that bad though since the zerg loses early economy as well. The timing will be approximately the same.
Does the A-Yu-Min work against any 3 hatch build? Or is it a specific counter to 3hatch Mutas? Does it work against something like 3 hatch lurkers? + Show Spoiler + Yes it works vs all 3hatch builds.
What if he makes 2hatch lurker? + Show Spoiler + A-yu-mi build is not good vs 2hatch lurker. You will have to move out earlier and stall his lurkers and upgrade armor. From here try to keep mapcontrol and trande marines vs lurkers as much as you can while teching towards tanks and dropships.
Mech+ Show Spoiler +Fantasy B.O. What do I do when the enemy goes for Hydras? Or muta + hydra + Show Spoiler + I always lift the rax when I move out with the vulture and land it in front of my natural to be able to produce rines and add a bunker if he's doing a fast hydra rush.
Also be sure to lay alot of mines in a straight line from his base to your base.
If he combines muta/hydra you can do a timing push towards his third with like 3 valks and 6++ goliaths before he gets his hydras up or you can make 6 factories and do a timing push which includes scv stop production for a while with about 3 tanks and about 20 goliaths.
Wait until you have 1-1 to push out or be sure to at least have 1-1 when the battle is going on.
Fantasy build vs. opponent who opens 3 Hatch, have you encountered this response where they switch tech to pure Hydralisk off of those 3 Hatches and go for a full-on nat break with oveerlord speed? + Show Spoiler + Yes it’s very common. Float the rax to your expansion as soon as vulture is finished. If you scout a hydra den, make a bunker and start producing marines also lay some mines close to the bunker. If you scout it in time, don’t make a valkyrie only a wraith, otherwise just make 1 valkyrie. Don’t upgrade range with goliaths, add factory instead of range. Make tanks from 1 fact and goliaths from 1 fact and be ready to pull many scv to repair the bunker.
You will have 1 bunker w/ 4 marines. Some mines outside the bunker. 1 tank at least and about 3 goliaths + 10 scvs repairing the bunker. This usually is enough to defeat 15+ hydralisks. If they attack with more its too late and you have siege mode.
Is Mech good on Medusa? + Show Spoiler + Medusa startpos 11 and 6 is good for wallin with mech opening. Medusa starting pos 3 is better for some sort of 14 cc with the walling or the 8rax Mech opening because you cannot wall with only 2 buildings.
Any advice on start locations with wide backings? Ie. medusa? I mean as far as turret placement, and defense especially v. mutas + Show Spoiler + If you do valks with mech you generally dont need more than 1-2 turrets at 3 locations. Main, natural and factoryarea.
If you dont have valks I suggest you add like 4-5 turrets at your main cc 2 lowground 3 highground while you keep goliaths at natural and only like 1-2 turrets there.
I was wondering if its good to go mech or 2port wraith on longinus in tvz? + Show Spoiler + I wouldn't suggest it, but its very doable. Specially mech builds. But since Longinus is pretty good for standard TvZ Bio you shouldn't complicate things.
Do you have to counter 3hatch muta with the fantasy build if you're going mech? How do you adjust the 2hatch counter mech to 3 hatch counter? + Show Spoiler + If you see that he's doing 3hatch you can use the 2hatch mech build but you don’t need armory or ebay as fast, rather take expansion earlier.
You can produce vults from 2 fact, but vs 3hatch you really have to be able to do some damage with them, not just mapcontrol.
Or you can just go 1fact speed vult specially on noramp maps and get 3-4 speedvult and try a runby while you take a really fast expansion and then go for 6 factorypush.
However the fantasy build is pretty standard and has no obvious weaknesses.
How do you adjust 8rax mech into different zergbuilds? + Show Spoiler + If he does 3hatch muta you will most likely get an easy win with alot of speedvultures sneaking into his main.
If he does 2hatch muta you will still produce alot of vultures and damage his economy while making ebay armory without taking an expansion. He will most likely lose alot of drones and then attack with his first 6 mutalisks and then you should have 2 turrest in your mineral line, 2 turrets at your factories and 2 - 4 goliaths finnished and there is no problem. From here make a CC in your main and float it towards the expansion.
If he's doing hydralisks only from 2 or 3 hatch you should keep producing vultures and upgrade mines after speed is finnished. Try to sneak by, but if you cannot do this lay mines all over the place while taking a fast expansion and from there add 2 more factories and switch to vults/tanks and add academy so you can scout if he's switching to mutas. You dont have to add ebay or refinary until after the 4th factory is finnished.
Vs any sort of lurkerbuild just abuse mines, expand and tech towards tanks goliaths and comsats.
2 Port warith+ Show Spoiler +How do you prevent a 2 Hatch Lurker Slow Drop? Are the 3rd and 4th Wraith out in time to kill any Overlords around your base? + Show Spoiler + Any sort of fast lurker openings is pretty much countered by the 2port strategy. Slow overlords won’t last long vs a 2port opening. Also your vults will see any attempt to sneak hydras out on the map for morphing. Yes the 3rd 4th wraith is out in time to shoot the OL down.
When do you build your Academy/Engineering Bay if you scout a 2 Hatch Lurker opening? + Show Spoiler + If I scout 2hatch lurker It’s very possible that you're going to kill him with wraiths only. Just make sure to place the Ebay after the 4th wraith. Make marines out of 1 rax make a turret and 1 or 2 bunkers if he attempts to break you. You won’t need academy unless you fuck up with the wraiths. But I guess it’s good to make it just in case, probably sometime after the Ebay.
If you see your opponent going Mutalisks/Scourge, when do you build the Control Tower/research Cloak? + Show Spoiler + After 6 wraiths. The 2hatch build will produce scourges so that you have time to kill about 3 drones and one overlord with the initial 2 wraiths. After that get back to your main and let the scourges die to turrets while you wait for more wraiths to be able to micro vs scourges. In this case you should also lift the rax and float it closer to the turrets once his first mutas or scourges has left your base.
Follow up with 3rax ebay aca -> exp and get mapcontrol.
Do you land your Factory in your main again in order to produce Siege Tanks/research Siege Mode? + Show Spoiler + Vs mutalisks you usually don’t have to float it back. I'd rather have it floating in his expansion so it can draw mutalisk fire and scourges while also giving you vision of where his mutas are so you know where you can snipe drones.
Vs lurker openings I would suggest that if wraiths only doesn’t work you could mix in a drop ship with marines and medics. Float ffactory back to main if he goes for lurkers.
Is it possible to do a transition from a 2port wraith into some mech build? + Show Spoiler + It’s not really a standard thing to switch from Wraiths to mech because you will lack in gas and have to rely on vultures for a while after the wraiths.
The normal response to wraiths is doing hydralisk speed with overlord speed and that would beat a rather late transition into vultures before being able to produce gas heavy tanks or gols and wouldn't give a mech opening any specific advantage.
With wraiths you want to damage his economy and make him waste economy on hydra tech + overlords which is later countered with a strong m&m build.
After 2port wraith it’s better to transition into marines. Try then to get hold of the position outside zerg’s bridges(on destination). That way only a few marines + medics will be a lot stronger and you prevent zerg from taking more expansions. However never let the hydralisks get hold of your bridges. If you let him do that quickly open the back passage mineral to be able to move out, since it’s going to be pretty hard without tanks.
What if they counter your 2port with hydras? + Show Spoiler + Yes you still make like 6-8 wraiths and try to snipe his drones. If those aren’t any successful you have to switch. 2 Port isn't easy, you have to micro those wraiths really good for it to be effective.
14 CC+ Show Spoiler +When and why should I do this build? + Show Spoiler + 14 CC is great on maps where you can make a lingproof wall outside your natural, such as Longinus and Medusa. The strategy will give you great economics and you'll be able to have more macrobuildings and units at 9min than with the 9min push.
Its solid vs all builds except 4/5 pool on wallable maps.
What should I focus on in the early game? + Show Spoiler + 14 CC will usually force zerg into a 2hatch build or taking a fast third base. When academy is finnished, make 2 medics asap and then 2 bats. When the bats are finnished, move out and dont forget to bring another scouting scv at the same time for scouting possible third expansions. Move towards his base to force him into making sunkens and then go take out his third base if he has one.
Its crucial that you use your first scouting scv to see if he does a 2hatch build or not. As soon as you've gotten enough info use that scv to scout for possible third bases aswell. Since you dont need to look for lings or anything like that, you dont need to stay in his base very long.
When making the wall, be sure to pull 3-4 scvs for repair ASAP if you see 6 lings coming fast. If he 9pools you need good reflexes here.
How do I know what build zerg does without staying in his base for long? + Show Spoiler + If zerg adds his gas at the same time as his pool, he's going to do a 2hatch build. In this case, keep the scv in his base as long as possible, remember that if he's going to 2hatch lurk, his den must start building before his lair is finnished.
If zerg adds gas after pool it usually means that he's going 3hatch. Even if you only scout 2hatcheries he can very well have placed his third hatchery in another expansion to catch up to the 14cc. If he takes his gas pretty slow you dont need to stay in his base long with the scv, just wait for a while and then start searching out expansions.
]So what if he does 2hatch muta? + Show Spoiler + If he does any sort of 2hatch build, you must add comsats sooner. Preferable when range is almost halfway finnished. You will only need 3 rax to defend vs 2hatch muta and will have minerals over for turrets. Usually i tech up to vessel even if he 2hatch muta when i do 14cc but you could also skip factory and make 3 more rax for a total of 6 and then add factory.
You will need to pull back the initial 6rine 2medic 2bats pretty fast when he's doing 2hatch muta, but still move out abit to force him into making 1-2 sunkens.
So what if he does 2hatch lurker? + Show Spoiler + Move out with the initial force and camp outside his natural. Make 2 factories instead of 1 and from there tech towards vessel on 3 raxes. You can also add a second refinary abit faster and research armor instead of attack in ebay.
If needed, make a bunker at your natural. As soon as factory is finnished, get a tank and research mode asap. Look out for any drop in your main and natural at the same time. You could make a bunker in your main and keep the units in your natural to be safe.
From here just keep producing tanks from the 2 factories, you will only need 1 vessel for the moment. Move out when you have about 8 tanks usually. Your 14 cc will give you a great lead on his 2hatcheconomy so by the time you have 8 tanks he will get crushed.
And if he does the usual 3hatch muta? + Show Spoiler + Then just follow the buildorder. Adapt the same way you would with the 9min push. Scan when your vessel is out, if no hive, wait for second vessel etc etc.
General Mech Tips+ Show Spoiler +Whats the most important thing to think about when meching? + Show Spoiler + When meching, buildorder is everything. If you do a bio-build you can usually get back from a disadvantegous position through micro etc but with mech its all about timing and macro, except for vultureharass.
You need to execute the buildorder perfectly the first 5 minutes of the game or else you will fall behind.
If you lose a game, watch through the replay and figure out why you lost. Was it because you didn't get enough drones in the earlygame with vultureharass? Was it because your push was delayed, or that you didn't time upgrades good enough. Was it because you had too few units on the timing of your push, but the timing being good? Was it because he had units that you didn't know he had, for example he switched?
If you decide that it was because your push was too weak, even if it was on the right timing, it is usually because you did too little damage early on or that you took your natural too late.
Often, terran players will get their cc up too late when meching, even if the zerg is droning up. Usually you can take the natural pretty fast. For example if he's doing hydralisks you could get cc when mines are half way done and cut 2-3 vultures to get it up fast.
If you decide that it was because your push was delayed, look to the buildorder, you probably did something wrong.
Push can get delayed because of different reasons. Either you have suplystop, so fixing that is obvious. Or its just that you couldnt afford making the factories in time, which usually means you took the expansion too slow.
Whats the most difficult thing with mech? + Show Spoiler + In the early game, while harassing with vultures you must also keep producing scvs, macro units and use the scouting information you get from the vultures to decide what building to make next. To do all this and still keep the money low is really hard, and its usually in the beginning the lategame decides.
When trying to decide what to do next its not usually hard, specially when watching the replay. For example his spire is really fast and he kills you, should you have done armory faster? ebay? cut scv to make it fast? Or if he runs you over with hydra, could you have made a bunker and some marines? Could you have had a tank/mode finnished? Think about it for yourself for a while before asking, this is usually the best way to improve.
Ofcourse you also use the info you get from the vultureharass to place your cc at a timing that will give you as much eco as possible without losing the game.
TvP + Show Spoiler +General+ Show Spoiler +General Tips + Show Spoiler + Watch the VOD called TvP General tips, under "Extras".
Hotkeys? + Show Spoiler + Early game: CC 2 rax 4 and then 5 when factory is finished factory 4 natural CC 3
later: factories with machine shops 4 and 5 rest 6 7 8 (9) scan 9 0 units 123 (late game flash build 1 vult 2 vult 3 tank 4 tank 5gol+vessel)
Macro tips? + Show Spoiler + to macro units from factory practice 4t5t6789 4 tank 5 tank 6 click vulture with mouse 7 8 9 same
This will allow you to macro from all factories very fast while you are still with your screen in the attack.
This will also allow you to easily set new rally points for reinforcements while pushing or attacking. In early game when I produce I mostly use hotkeys to macro from all buildings.
2s3s produces scvs and then 4t5t6789 for units.
In the lategame I might have hotkeys for more than 3 groups of units and then I only use f4 to go back to my macro mode area and macro manually.
What are the different pushes good for? + Show Spoiler + When creating a timed push, terran means to damage the protoss before his economy has given him the chance to produce alot of units. If terran fast expands, usually protoss will take 2 expansions to get ahead of the terran in economics. While the protoss is using most of his minerals to make nexuses and probes, he will be vulnurable to a timed push, just before he starts macroing units.
Terran have different kinds of pushes. Some are faster some are slower, and its important that you understand how they work.
A faster push will have less units than a slower push, but if the protoss have very few units it will still be strong enough. Generally, the more greedy/economically the protoss plays in the start, the faster timingpush you should do. The less greedy/economical and thus more early unitheavy protoss plays the slower should the timingpush be.
Two examples: 1. Protoss notice that you take a fast expansion, he then makes 2 more nexusess while he only has 1 gateway. Then he adds 2 more gateways but also a forge to prevent vultureharass with cannons.Conclusion; protoss is playing greedy and he's adding cannons aswell which means he will have even less units in the beginning.
This means that he will not be prepared for an early timingpush. In this situation, for example a 4factpush would be able to punnish him before he has enough units.
2. Protoss takes only his natural, adds many gateways and starts macroing from 2 bases. Protoss is not playing greedy, he's investing most of his minerals into units early on. This will mean that he is not vulnurable to any sort of early timingpush. Thus its better to rely on a later attack. In this case, macro up to 170 from 6factories, 2bases and then move out to attack him.
Where should I push, and how? + Show Spoiler + Where you push can differ greatly.
Lets talk alittle bit about the most common push. A push on a protoss that is on 3 bases when terran is on 2 bases will go towards the location that is closest to you and where you can hurt his economy. You don't want to push through open areas if it can be avoided. Try using the maps to your advantage. Push in a way that protoss units cannot surround you and usually the more objects that are in the way the better it is for terran.
You want to lay mines in front of your tanks, far enough so that they cannot easily get draggen into your tanks by zealots, but also close enough that tanks can fire on goons that fire on the mines.Keep you tanks somewhat spread out, so that splash damage from mines and siegesplash wont hurt you so much, and keep the vultures in between and behind your tanks to autoattack on the zealots while you select some of your tanks and spam shiftattack on his goons so siegesplash wont hit you so much.
If he has goons only you want to keep your vultures in front of your tanks, laying aditional mines during the attack to keep dragoons away from the tanks and force him to retreat or suffer a violent death to mines and siegefire.
When you are close to his nexus or probes, make sure that atleast one of a few tanks are infact fireing at him to force him to attack you, otherwise he can keep macroing and any delays are in favour for the protoss.
Lets talk alittle bit about lategame pushes or attacks in general. When doing a timed 2-1 push in the lategame you want to keep scanning around the map to find out his armylocation. Move out as fast as possible and hit siegemode directly when he decides to attack. Mines should not be placed during the heat of battle, but rather before he actually decides to move in. Keep the vultures on hold position close to your tanks during the attack and select goons and vessel to fire on his shuttle/arbiter and casting EMP on his arbiters as fast as possible.
The attack should usually go for his main base and natural area. You want to beat his army and use the remaining units plus reinforcements to get to his macroarea and cut of his unitproduction or to establish a defensive position outside in a location to cut off his reinforcements while you take a few units to kill his expansions.If you're very successful in your big push split up some units and siege up ouside multiple expansions to damage his economy and use the main force to keep moving towards his macroarea.
When doing a later push, for example 3-2 timingpush you should rather aim for his biggest expansionarea, any area where he has 2 or more expansions still mining. His minerals will most likely be outmined in his main and he will most likely have gateways up in his expansions aswell.
Be sure to place mines in your base before you move out this late to stop any attempted recalls. Micro your units the same way as with the 2-1 push.
What should I scout for with my initial SCV? + Show Spoiler + Try to find out his pyloncount, if he researches range in his cybernetics core, if he makes an early zealot and if he keeps producing probes. His pylon count should be close to your own suplycount. Specially if you're doing any kind of FD or strong FD opening. If he has less pylons than you have suplies in this case he might be proxying something and you should use your initial marines to scout around abit outside your main and in various proxylocations.
If he's not researching his goonrange slightly before his first goon pops out or before his second goon is out he is usually trying to tech up fast towards reavers or dark templars. When the SCV dies, keep looking at his core as long as you have vision to find out if he cancels range or not.
If your scv is killed quite early and you notice that he's low on pylons or that he hasn't researched range yet, send another scv by clicking on a mineralpatch in his main to get more information as soon as posible.
If he's making an early zealot try to prepare for that by pulling scvs in time if you have to to block your ramp. If he's not making probes constantly he will most likely try some sort of early preassure. Also ofcourse look out for any kind of early expansion.
How do I harass with vultures/drops? + Show Spoiler + If he has early cannons, you should not attempt to harass with your initial vultures but rather keep them at full health for your push.
When attacking probes with a group of vultures, lets say 8 vultures, spam shiftattack on different probes. If you can, split up the vultures to two groups and spam shiftattack with each group on different probes. This way you can go home and macro or whatever while the vultures keep killing his probes.
Try to lay mines in a location you think his reinforcements will pass through to save his expansion before you move in to target the probes. Also place a few mines in his mineralline for any possible mineexplosion to his probes.
You can use your vultures to draw his attention and at the same time move out tanks to make a push while his units are busy elsewhere. This way you can start the actual push at a closer distance.
In lategame its good to lay mines all over the map to get mapcontrol and force him to kill those mines. This way you will always know where his units are. You are also forcing him to focus on other things than macro.
When dropping a protoss that has no cannons its usually better to use 4 vultures in a dropship. Lay some mines first and then start attacking his probes. If he has cannons, usually have atleast 1 tank in your drop aswell as vultures. Lay mines to protect the tanks and siege up in range of his probes.
When doing a drop its good to use vultures to harass elsewhere at the same time to draw his attention. This way his reactiontime might be slower and you get a more effective drop. If you're able to drop in an area where it will take him alot of time to bring units to, you can also use 2 tanks in each drop and targetfire his nexus and hopefully be able to kill it before his units arrives.
The purpose of harassing with vultures and drops is to make him multitask and lose economy so he cannot focus 100% on macro while you work on your tankcount for your push. Usually if he knows you are harassing him his units won't be in position to break your push when you move out, but rather be spread out to defend different locations from harass.
What builds shall I use on what maps? + Show Spoiler + On most maps without a ramp, a strong FD opening or 2fact builds are good choices. On most maps with a ramp or a wallable choke, siege expand or a normal FD opening into for example 5factpush, or a dropship opening are good choices.
Medusa: Strong FD, dropshipstrat, 2fact.
Destination: Strong FD, dropshipstrat, Flash strat but with abit later expansion and earlier 3rd and 4th factory, 3fact FE.
Python: Strong FD, normal FD, Siege expand, FD expand, dropshipstrat, 3fact FE.
Longinus: Strong FD, siege expand (wall outside natural).
Othello: Siege expand, Flashstrat, FD expand, 3fact FE.
Colosseum: Flashstrat, 2fact (because most protoss are greedy on this map).
Tau Cross: Strong FD, 2fact, 3fact FE.
These are just some examples.
What do I scan for? + Show Spoiler + With your first two scans, you should scan for his third expansion and his gateway count. Later in the game you should scan for his tech, usually in his main, if he's donig arbiters or carriers. Also scan around the map to find out his armycomposition and location.
Early on if you know that he has not taken a third and you scan that he's low on gateways, scan a second time in his main to find out any early tech such as DTs, revavers, arbiters or carriers.
Where and when should I take my third expansion? + Show Spoiler + If you're doing any sort of flashbuild you already know when to take it if you watch the VODs.
If your doing any sort of timing push you should take the expansion while doing the push as soon as you have 400 extra minerals while still keep macroing from all your factories. Place it in a location in the path of your push, if this isn't possible, take the closest expansion and at the same time as far away as possible from the protoss.
Where do I place my turrets? + Show Spoiler + You can place them in two different ways.
Either you place one turret at you natura, one close to your main cc and one close to your factories while floating Ebay over one of the turrets and keep 1-2 tanks and some marines in your main to be able to support the turret if needed, but keep them close enough to the natural that you'll be able to quickly defend vs any breakattempt.
Or you can place 4-5 turrets on specific locations around you base so they cover your whole base and wont let any observer or shuttle in.
The first way is optimal for dtdrops and will give you greater economy. The second way is optimal for reavers and keeping protoss in the dark.
Be sure to place your first turret in your natural, this is the place his dts can arrive at very fast and it should be up first.
How do I react vs fast nexusbuilds? + Show Spoiler + It depends on what strategy you started out doing and when you're able to scout his fast nexus.
If you opened up with the Strong FD build, just keep doing the build and the initial attack will hurt him alot.
If you opened dropshipstrat, you can just continue with the buildorder. Its good vs 14nexus and his observers will be very late so he'll be playing blindly.
If you opened 5factpush, either keep producing marines fromt he rax and do a normal FD push with 6-7rines 1tank and 2rallied vultures and do some damage, or if you scout him fast enough, skip machineshop and rally vultures directly towards his main. Rally marines and pull 10-12 scvs and do an all-in at his front. If you wonder how to do this, watch Skyhigh vs Young on colosseum @ winnersleague finals.
If you scout him too late to be agressive, just cut back on safety. Make a second factory before ebay and delay siegemode and stuff like that to try to catch up. Sometimes 14nexus will be an advantage for him whatever you do basically if you opened a bad strat vs 14nexus and scout him too late.
On maps such as andromeda and medusa where you have an easily accessable mineral only, you could take a doubleexpansion and power up from there to catch up. Usually if I do this i will get 8-9 factories and 2 armories and time an attack when you have 1-1 units.
How do vs fast dt and arbiters?+ Show Spoiler + Fast arbiters is a good build and you can watch oysteins vods to know an appropriate dtdrop timing and learn from that. The thing is to place your turrets at locations that covers the important stuff and be ready for a drop.
If you succeed in killing or defending from the dts you can either get scans and get a fast third to go lategame or you can use vultures with mines/speed faster than usual to move out and lay mines because he will most likely lack observers if he's going a 2base arbiterbuild. Lay some minefields and try to harass him with the vultures and at the same time move your tanks and scvs to the push area while you distract him with the vultures.
If you get up a contain with mines tanks and a turret or two he will be in big trouble. Best thing is doing this with 4 factories i believe, because its faster and the contain needs to be up before the first arbiter pops.
From there push slow and careful until you reach the nexus and take it out.
How do I defend my expansions vs protoss?+ Show Spoiler + Terran cannot defend expansions vs protoss in general, thats why the matchup is played the way it is.
You need to have your expansions clutched together as close as possible while it is the protoss job to expand over the map. Terran should not split up his units in the early midgame and still be able to defend all bases, which are usually 2 3 or 4 on some maps.
The best way to not let protoss attack vulnerable positions that are not covered by your units with a reaver or such is to use turrets and mines properly.
Protoss units are more mobile than terran units with the exeption of vultures, therefor laying minefields is the only way to slow down a protoss attack until you can get there to defend with more units.
So to answer the question. In early game, use turrets and mines to protect areas that you cannot get to fast enough with your units that should be kind of clutched together at a strategic location to cover big attacks on your bases.
In lategame, when having to take expansions further away from your main base, use minefields to cover the area that protoss units have to run past to get to your expansion. This will give you time to defend it. Also use turrets to defend vs drops and you can place a few tanks and vults but not that many to defend vs stray zealots or whatever that would sneak through. Also try to take expansions that are in a location that might be covered by your push.
If you're making a push, your macro and minefields is what will help you defend possible counters. If you keep your macro up there is a big chance that tanks+mines will be able to defend a possible counter, and if the counter is too big this will still give you time to reinforce with units from the push.
How many factories can and should I have in general?+ Show Spoiler + This depends on what kind of strategy your doing ofcourse, because if your opening with a 4factpush you will not be able to support 6 factories at the time obviously.
The best generalization I can give is:
Protoss generally needs 1 more base than terran. This will give him the oppertunity to have more macrobuildings since he has more economy. X-base terran vs X+1-base toss is playable from both sides, with slight advantage for the toss when X is low. Therefor its also ok to have enough factories that X bases can suply vs the gateways X+1 bases can supply for the protoss.
1 base terran can suply 2 factories with machineshops or 3 factories with vultures. 2 base terran can support 6 factories max. 3 base terran can support about 9-10 factories depending on how fast you take it. 4 base terran can generally not support more than 10 factories because one base should be mined out, but if you have 4 bases running i think you can have something like 15++ factories.
Strong FD+ Show Spoiler +When and why is this opening good? + Show Spoiler + Its good on most maps without ramps, but also many maps with ramps. Its good vs early preassure and vs 14nexus but also vs 1gate expand.
The ammount of units protoss need to stop your Strong FD attack will cost him more minerals than it will cost you. This way you will probably get your expansion up earlier than him and also be able to scout what he's doing and sometimes even win from the first attack.
Its a great build.
Can I preassure him even if he's going 2gate? + Show Spoiler + Yes you can, you will be able to put preassure on him whatever he does, however if he does a really goonheavy preassurebuild you need to be more carefull and not proceed to walk all the way to his base. Rather move out and kill any goons that you can find and return again once your marines are getting killed and go back to your freshly placed expansion.
Lay mines behind your tanks and marines when you move out vs alot of goons. This way you can retreat safely even if he's able to outmicro you and snipe alot of units. After you've laid mines with your first vulture, use it as a scout to find out if he's expanding or teching.
How do I follow up? + Show Spoiler + It depends on the damage and the information you're able to get while doing the intial attack. If you're able to kill alot of his units, usually you're also able to get a glimps of what he's doing with your marines and tanks. Place mines offensively if he's low on units and try to save 1 mine for placing on his natural expansion so he cannot take it.
Then use the vulture or vultures to find out as much as you can of his tech. If you see no tech and know that he will try to expand, or if you see the expansion with your mines or whatever you don't need to play safe.Get refinary early on in your natural and get another 4 factories up asap. From here do a second attack and research minespeed, you dont usually need siegemode for this attack. Watch the Strong FD VOD and you'll know what I mean.
If you're not able to do enough damage, or not able to get enough information you should follow up with a later gas in your natural and an earlier Ebay / Siegemode. From here you can transition into another build such as the 5fact push or add an early armory, take a fast third and go for some sort of flashbuild.
5Fact push+ Show Spoiler +When and why is this build good? + Show Spoiler + This build is great when the protoss is taking a fast third to stay ahead of you economically. Hopefully, with proper micro and macro you'll be able to attack him at a timing where he's still waiting for his macro to have produced enough units to kill your push.
Its good on most maps with ramps and even better if the starting locations are close.
Why use a defensive FD opening instead of a siegeexpand opening? + Show Spoiler + When opening with an FD build you will have the possibility to be agressive once you've scouted what hes doing, in this case you can produce more than 4 marines. You can also use the first vulture, once it's laid its mines for scouting and find out when he's taking a third to make the proper reaction.
Its good to have those early 4 marines in the case he's trying to reaver or dtdrop you. Keep 2 tanks and 4 marines in your main to be able to backup the turrets fast and protect vs dts or reavers, but keep them close enough to the ramp that you can siege up and defend if protoss decides to break your entrance. Siege Expand will give you greater economy, but its more risky in my oppinion. And you're kept more in the dark and will be less mobile than with the defensive FD opening.
However its still good on many maps and for many types of builds. For example on colosseum.
When should I take my third and how do I transition into lategame? + Show Spoiler + Take your third when you have 400 overminerals while doing the push and are still macroing from all your factories. If the push isn't successfull you need to lay mines and take a defensive position, also place turrets specially if its in a location on the path of your initial push.
When the third is going up you can add aprox 3 more factories, another armory and start making a starport. From here, keep harassing him with vultures while you macro up and push out again if you get an opportunity or wait for upgrades to kick in and move out when you're almost maxed.
How do I react vs reaveropening? + Show Spoiler + Once you've successfully defended the first reaver with turrets marines and tanks you continue with the normal build. Get 3 goliaths with your push and make sure to upgrade goliath range and target the shuttle as soon as you see it while pushing out.
How do I react vs 2base protoss? + Show Spoiler + Add a 6th factory and keep macroing and scan/scout for his third expansion. If he doesn't take a third he's going to have alot of units, just stay in your base macroing from 6 factories and upgrading from 1 armory an d move out when you have about 170 suply.
What If he's opening DT? + Show Spoiler + Add a second vulture after the first one and lay mines in two straight lines outside your natural. Get the Ebay before siegemode as usual, but not before the CC. Also be sure to float the Ebay over the turret in your natural to prevent any kind of turretsniping dragoons to clear way for the dts.
What if he's going fast carriers? + Show Spoiler + Push out at the same timing, but reinforce with alot of goliaths. If his carriers are from 3 bases and thus pretty slow, keep making some round of vultures before switching to goliaths to be able to punnish his economy before he gets enough carriers.
Remember that once he has 2 carriers he will need time to get interceptors and even then he wont be able to kill vultures that fast and you dont need to rush to goliaths if you're going to be agressive.
From here just continue with the normal build.
TvP FlashStrat+ Show Spoiler +When I Siege expand. Is it always safe to float the CC directly?+ Show Spoiler +Scenario 1
- Protoss 1gate range.
This preassure will not be enough to hold you back from floating the CC down directly upon its finnish. 1tank on cliff and one unsieged tank below to push him away from your expansion. Micro the tank below back and forth and he won't dare to snipe it because the tank on cliff will fire at him. If you're in a position where the tank on the cliff wont protect the tank on the ground, siege up the second tank on the ramp or just below and protect with SCVs if you have to. If you don't know what his tech is after this you must place turrets immediately when you land your CC. Place one on the cliff and one on the ground.
Reason: 1gate will not support enough goons to break you and with 1gate he can either tech fast to DT/Reaver or he can take double expansion very fast and you cannot afford to delay economy.
Scenario 2
- Protoss 2Gate range.
This will force you to make a bunch of SCVs from your CC before you can lift it. Stay behind the wallin with sieged tanks to defend his preassure and wait for 3-4 tanks before you float the CC down. Place turrets when you move down if you don't know his tech and place a turret on the cliff before that, close to the cliff so it will cover some area below aswell.
Reason: 2Gate goon will set the protoss back economically. He will be able to preassure you in the beginning but your eco will still be ahead because you have 2 CCs pumping SCVs and when you float down, the only way he can catch up economically is to take double expansions. Either he does that or he will try to bulldog you or tech to something fast on 2 bases.
Always remember to float both rax and ebay down to make a semiwall at your expansion a few seconds before you move down. This will make it harder for him to break you. Also remember that SCVs are very stron protectors in the beginning vs goons. Last Update 04-27-09 + Show Spoiler +New questions added in TvZ general and TvP general
This is a complimentary thread to my original terranguide thread called Stylish's FPVods. The FAQ consists of questions asked in that thread but also many other questions.
The reason I made a new thread for this is because my other thread was getting too big and it was really hard updating things for me.
Feel free to discuss questions here and add questions/answers if you feel the need and I will try to update them if I think they are valid. I've tried my best to answer the questions as good as I can and if you think I'm wrong at some point, please let me know and explain why. And maybe I will change it.
It is not completed yet, I will keep this thread updated on a regular basis, adding questions that appear in my other thread and here. Most information are based on my VOD thread, thus when I'm recommending a strategy, I will chose from one in my other thread. Enjoy!
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Terran has the best teacher ever
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God i wish you played zerg
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Best Terran Guide EVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR EVERRRRRRRRRRR :D thnx a lot stylish once again
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Darn. Hope there was a Zerg as cool as Stylish.
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Amazing topic and great guide!
Thanks Stylish for all the effort!
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United States1190 Posts
So Stylish, what's this I hear about you leaving this fall >=( Who will make Ventrilo fun?
And to think you were hesitant on posting vods in the first place, pfft.
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On March 28 2009 11:20 Batibot323 wrote: Darn. Hope there was a Zerg as cool as Stylish. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89581
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stylish how do you make terran look so imba
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On March 28 2009 09:57 StylishVODs wrote: whenever I feel that the quantity of Redbull is getting dangerous i switch to diet coke!
diet coke is ftw nice guide
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Ok I just have three questions:
1) When you scout the protoss doing the gay zealot into dragoon range strategy how do YOU micro vs the zealot to not lose any rines if you have 3 marines at that point. For me I hold position one marine in the crack between the CC and barrax where the zeal don't fit and micro with the other two marines. Other times however the toss jsut keeps on right clicking his zeal till it's RIGHT next to my rine and attack then right click past rine again and repeats and the whole time I'm trying to circle around my base to get far enough in range to micro vs gthe zealot when it's not right next to my rines. This is how I do it but if there is a better way then taht would be helpful. Mainly vs korean protosses who know how to micro and gets as close to the marines as possible before attacking. And I know that you already know how much of an effect losing rines has when you're doing an FD build. Sorry that was alot longer than expected.
2) I don't know if you seen jf vs never on destination but jf basically does one gate proxy at his natural expo then gas rushes him. So the entire early game never is microing his azz off trying to defend the continuous zeal pressure and had to make 2 rax in to marine medic. He did eventually win but is there a "solid counter" that you do vs this or do u have to micro ur marines the best way possible while getting a bunker up into marine medic?
3) My most important question - Is there ever a point where you stop making scvs? Before you answer let me tell you what I know for sure. I know that in tvz for example you constantly produce scvs,marines,depots up till the muta harrass into lurker transition timing. But once you get ur vessel and have 1-5 units hotkeyed and moving out, I just feel that it greatly disrupts with my multitasking when at that point in the game in tvz, i need to be scanning for where his army,iridating,siegeing tanks+stimming at perfect timing+macroing making more barrax and depots and rines that build fast as heck. And I know this is from macroing bad but even when I stop producing scvs MID GAME i can still have up to 2k some games.So in my mind I always thought halting scvs mid game in tvz was okay. I play vs lots of good zergs and I never had a problem with a steady flow of income but rather having so much income(like 2k even)that I can't spend even when i stopped making scvs at that point. I hope I made everything as clear as possible and sorry it's so long. Thx ^^
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Readying Your Guides Has Really Helped Me To Get Better With Terran (Even Though I Still Suck). God Job And Keep Up The Great Work, It's Really Appreciated. Thanks Man
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United States4126 Posts
This is honestly one of the best FAQ's I've ever seen. It's very organized and it covers so many questions that I'd like to know the answers to. Thanks so much for your work to the community
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Thnx for the support guys!
Marine23: I'll look into this. I'm going to the gym first and then i have some things i have to do first and WL finals omg
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TvP:
You say for harass you want to preferably drop 4 vultures if he doesn't have cannons and to lay mines first. Doesn't that give him time for his probes to run away through a pylon wall? If he does have one are you not safer targeting probes right away because he can't bring goons through his wall, and then when zeals come through you can lay mines then?
Also, regarding TvP harass, when he does have cannons and you have 1 tank 2 vults are you better off targeting his cannons, then when they are dead rape the probes because you vultures can move in? If he has cannons you cant move in without your vultures getting raped and it only allows your tank to get probe kills. Perhaps when his probes are fleeing if your tank targets the cannon you send your vults to chase them down as your tank continues killing the cannon? Or would it be better to just load the dropship with 2 tanks and target the probes right away without vultures at all?
TvZ: I usually do 10rax into 1rax FE with 1 marine, but on maps like Longinus, Tau Cross, Medusa, etc, they often open 9pool speed and go for early pressure. Because of this, I usually always put my fast CC(15CC I believe) in my main regardless of whether they went 12hatch > 3 hatch or not, and if I scout them and they opened a fast speedling build I also put down a bunker near the choke(if there is one) between my main and my natural, usually beside my first supply and barracks to prevent ling surrounds but sometimes the choke is just to large and when they see my bunker they still don't hesitate to try to run past my bunker and go for my SCV's. When I am scouting this do I really need to bring 6+ SCV's to block my large choke? If I bring simply 3 or 4 I only have 1 or 2 marines out at the time and he just targets those SCV's and continues to run past without too many speedlings dying. Then I take my marines out of my bunker with SCV micro to try to protect my mining and he continues to flood my base with reinforcements. If I don't die from this, he usually has lurkers shortly after when my acad or eBay hasn't even started. I really have problems with this and it forces me to open 2rax with a faster academy instead of taking my natural off 1 rax like I do on most maps. Whenever I do this though everything they do seems to give them more of an advantage. They see this and are ready for if I try to do an early sunk break, or they do a 2hatch and fast hive or something.
Tips?
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Btw, very nice compilation. This is exactly what I need because I don't play TvT anyways!! ^_^ <33333
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Î'll give tips when i get home from workout etc, but as for the first example i can only answer that its hard to give general advice. There are situations where other things are good, ofcourse sometimes its better to attack the probes right away, and maybe just use 1 vulture to lay mines while letting the others fire. But since I'm mostly giving general advice under "General" its hard to deal with every situation. I'll try to put a word about it though and its good that you question any unclearnessess(lolword?).
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Will you make a TvT guide?
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On March 28 2009 17:05 MyHeroNoob wrote: Will you make a TvT guide?
I'm not sure yet, I don't think so. I'm sorry, you'll have to resort to other guides for TvT information at the moment.
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United States1190 Posts
You best be on vent tomorrow. I demand to know why you're leaving BW in fall. D=
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On March 28 2009 16:55 StylishVODs wrote: Î'll give tips when i get home from workout etc, but as for the first example i can only answer that its hard to give general advice. There are situations where other things are good, ofcourse sometimes its better to attack the probes right away, and maybe just use 1 vulture to lay mines while letting the others fire. But since I'm mostly giving general advice under "General" its hard to deal with every situation. I'll try to put a word about it though and its good that you question any unclearnessess(lolword?). ^_^ sorry haha, I didn't want to make a new thread and have everyone flame me saying "wtf use the search function noob -_-;; Stylish just made a new guide".
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There's like not definitive TvT guides though ;o
Anyway, for TvZ could you talk about micro when doing the 9 min push, for example when they flank you how do you rearrange your units etc and how you scout their army positioning.
Here's a rep showing what I mean:
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=9586
The skill difference is pretty big (he's C I'm D) but I feel I kept level with him until he annihilated my push.
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On March 28 2009 20:49 Hundredth wrote:There's like not definitive TvT guides though ;o Anyway, for TvZ could you talk about micro when doing the 9 min push, for example when they flank you how do you rearrange your units etc and how you scout their army positioning. Here's a rep showing what I mean: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=9586The skill difference is pretty big (he's C I'm D) but I feel I kept level with him until he annihilated my push.
I will. Also please note that alot of these things are covered in the VODs. This is only complimentary, but I guess I will have to write down everything I say in the VODs sooner or later^^
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United States3824 Posts
Yeah I have a question, why are you soooooooo coooooool?
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thanks stylish...i love you stylish ;~;....your TvP guide gave me alot of tips and help <33
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Also, When you are doing the 9min TvZ push, or I guess it doesn't matter of you do a different build, but if you see the zerg went for a greater spire when his hive finished you know he is going guardians. So they obviously usually morph them above a cliff or something on your natural like they did in your VOD, and I usually don't have spare irradiates when he does that. Should I just save irradiates for that, or would it be viable to just continue irradiating lurkers or matrixing units and build a valk to kill the guardians? They are all clumped together so I imagine it would kill them fast, and irradiate only kills a limited amount of them anyway. I haven't met a zerg yet that brings scourges for such an instance, and there are no mutas because the guardians are morphed from leftover mutas from his harass.
And if the zerg stays on lair longer than expected you said to wait for 7 tanks, 3 vessels, and 2-1 upgrades. Do you stay on 2 base while doing this still? You got your 3rd about a minute after you moved out in the VOD so would you still take your 3rd at that time or wait until he actually does start the hive.
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Too bad you weren't a protoss teacher
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Grobyc: Don't take a third, macro up like crazy on 2 bases to get as many units as possible when you reach 2-1. On som maps like andromeda you can chose to take a third but i usually dont do this because it wont benfit your armycount at the timing you hit 2-1 upgrades, and shortly after zerg will have swarm.
If you see that he's teching towards greater spire and you know he has mutas left somewhere or making new ones, dont waste irradiate on lurkers. If you see defilers, irradiate them but otherwise save energy for guardians.
In my VOD i wasn't able tos cout his greater spire, if i woukld have scouted it i would have like 5 irradiates ready for his guardians and there would be no problem.
I will add some more information of guardians in the FAQ later, thnx.
Thnx for the support guys.
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Stylish I hope you still haven't forgotten about me. Been waiting for you to "get back from the gym" rofl.
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Thanks so much again Stylish! This stuff is really really helpful, especially the stuff about when and why to use what builds TvP. Definitely gives me a better idea of what build I should be using in different situations so I don't blindly follow a BO without knowing the reasons.
Been trying to get the hang of the Strong FD with limited success but I think once I get it down it will work nicely. Wondering if I should switch back to the 5fac push build instead of the Strong FD on Python though.
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Tnx to Stylish my gameplay has vastly improved. In yrs I not improved until now.
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i hit D+ today because of these tips thanks again stylish
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are you ever going to make tvt vods?
besides, thanks for the vids! i just started watching your vods yesterday and im practicing the 9 min push for tvz and strong fd for tvp.with this im confident to get to D+ this season!
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Do you have any tips for late game? What should terran be doing compared to mid game TvP, TvZ, and TvT regarding pushes and defense? Are there other options that appear in late game? Does timing still play a significant role in my pushes or do i just push to kill?
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reading your guide is like experiencing an sc choose your own adventure game/book XD
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On March 29 2009 18:30 Railxp wrote: reading your guide is like experiencing an sc choose your own adventure game/book XD
Haha lol;)
Thnx guys I willanswer the questions when i get home, ive been partying tonight so havent been able to use the computer and i didn't sleep at home so. Ill try to give some lategame tips for TvZ. I think I've covered alot of lategame tips with TvP in this FAQ.
Such ass harrassing while macroing, and how to attack when you have enough units.
TvZ however usually doesn't rely on one big push in the lategame but rather attack here and there^^ Ill rite something about it.
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If a protoss sits off 2 bases the right thing to do is macro off 2 bases as well and play defense intill he either attacks or goes for his thrid then you base your timing off the 3rd right?
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On March 28 2009 10:41 sixghost wrote: God i wish you played zerg
He would never do that
Me, Artosis and Stylish are the same haha we whine 24/7 about zerg and protoss imbalance!
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On March 29 2009 22:55 LaLaBye wrote: If a protoss sits off 2 bases the right thing to do is macro off 2 bases as well and play defense intill he either attacks or goes for his thrid then you base your timing off the 3rd right?
Yes, you can wait for about 170 suply units.
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I will switch to TvP and maybe Tvz.. as soon as I start bw again ^^
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On March 29 2009 22:55 LaLaBye wrote: If a protoss sits off 2 bases the right thing to do is macro off 2 bases as well and play defense intill he either attacks or goes for his thrid then you base your timing off the 3rd right? Yeah, I believe that's what Artosis(?) said in one of his english commentaries for TvP.
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I say it again, you're my hero for all for your work. Terran is more fun than ever thanks to you! Been practicing like hell.
Maybe you can help me out. I'm kind of a braindead player when it comes to strategy. How do i deal with build order interruptions? For instance when i loose one or two thanks or some vultures before i lay down 3 factorys (or the ref/aca/arm) i feel that i'm not shure when to timing attack. Countless times i scanned/scouted as well as possible and then ended up loosing my push because his 3-base macro kicked in.
It just feels like i'm trying to stop a ticking bomb that is about to get bigger and bigger with arbiters and i'm like sitting on my paper-tanks.
When supply shifts because of losses are there any landmarks for me to follow? Or should i just wait for 2-1 / 170 and hope my harass does at least some damage?
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rofl "Eh, who is tihs noob?" haha awesome
gj "noob" u r the most awesome "noob" ever
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Jayson X: Ofcourse it gets tricky if you lose units early on when trying to do a timed push or whatever. Most of the times, if you lose too many units, you simply cannot do the push at the usual timing because you will have too few units. This is called being in a disadvantage, having to make a comeback and so forth. There are a few things you can do as a terran. 1. Resort to risky moves. Examples; take a hidden expansion, do all-in by cutting scvs and still being able to get units up in time. 2. awesome micro can switch a game for example a great harass 3. Rely on the fact that most large terran armies are greater than other races greater armys and just macro up and get upgrades and try to win with one big push even if you are behind.
As for keeping the timings without having the correct suply, studdy the buildorders, not only at what suply you make building, but also in what specific order you make those buildings. Lets say i lose some early tanks with my 5fact push, i still add the buildings in the same order, but not suply, and therefor i will still have the same buildings as I would have had with the usual suplycount. This is very commonly used not at least for TvZ when you have to make a bunker or not. If i make a bunker, all suply counts will usually change for my buildings, but i will still build them in the same order.
Many times if you have played a strategie over and over again, these things will be easy to remember, and you will know that at the time you have for example almost finnished the factory its time to put up turrets vs 3hatch muta.
But some times, when relying on specific timings and your units gets killed of you simply have to be the greater player to win. This is developed over time, so there is no easy general answer for all situations.
As for your last example, i can only say that you should know what buildings you usually have at that timing, then move out IF you have enough units to kill him. This you can only judge by scouting his army and such things. You will still know the timing, but your unitcount might be hurt enough to not be able to execute the strategy.
Updates will be done some at a time. I won't update questions one by one but rather wait a while and then add a bunch at a time. These update headlines will be red for a few days so people easily can go through new updates without having to search for them so much.
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On March 30 2009 09:12 Piste wrote: Hey, I've seen pretty specific BO for TvZ 1rax FE where the CC was built at 15. Anyone knows where I can find that guide? I tried searching but I suck at it..
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89286 I discuss the difference between this build, "9minpush" and "artosis build" in the FAQ under TvZ 9min Push.
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Hehe lol, found it at the same minute you posted this^^ Thanks anyways tho!
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Sorry for offtopic but I couldn't resist:
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On March 30 2009 09:18 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Sorry for offtopic but I couldn't resist: Hehehe, look at what your are doing to our community Stylish
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On March 30 2009 09:40 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2009 09:18 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Sorry for offtopic but I couldn't resist: Hehehe, look at what your are doing to our community Stylish
Power to the UED!!!
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gold
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yes it's time to rise to the call. send forth the ayumi, the 9minpush, the strong FD. advance terrans! *evil laughter*
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Your 9 min push build is really timed against a zerg who gets their gas at like 16 so their spire finishes at around 6:40 and mutas pop around 7 but lately i see zergs get gas right after their 3rd hatch like 13 3rd hatch 12 gas and their mutas pop a lot faster like spire finishes around 6:20 and mutas pop out around 6:40. Should i play any differently against a build like this such as faster scan? When i scan the zergs base spire is already finished and he has 3 eggs at both hatch. If i get turrets the moment i scanned i realized i get turrets at the right timings just wondering if this is the right way to play against this.
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Mutas pop out at 6:30 :D, and that should be the standard, if you play koreans at least, the zerg will try to avoid making more than 2 zerglings early though, so you can pressure with your first 5 marines assuming you didnt stop making them when expanding, just be very careful not to lose them.
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good faq. i know you admitted your TvT is lower level but it would be really nice if you could include at least some tips because there isn't very much TvT learning material out there
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I watched your general TvZ guides and the part about how to micro vs the different armies got me an extra 20 apm (a lot for me ) and quite a few victories agaisnt Z's.
Good shit man keep the vods coming
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Can this thread be moved to the recommended folder?
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Thanks Stylish. Since my main problem is mechanics, i will use your guides to improve my gameplay : )
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On March 28 2009 12:35 MaRiNe23 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok I just have three questions:
1) When you scout the protoss doing the gay zealot into dragoon range strategy how do YOU micro vs the zealot to not lose any rines if you have 3 marines at that point. For me I hold position one marine in the crack between the CC and barrax where the zeal don't fit and micro with the other two marines. Other times however the toss jsut keeps on right clicking his zeal till it's RIGHT next to my rine and attack then right click past rine again and repeats and the whole time I'm trying to circle around my base to get far enough in range to micro vs gthe zealot when it's not right next to my rines. This is how I do it but if there is a better way then taht would be helpful. Mainly vs korean protosses who know how to micro and gets as close to the marines as possible before attacking. And I know that you already know how much of an effect losing rines has when you're doing an FD build. Sorry that was alot longer than expected.
2) I don't know if you seen jf vs never on destination but jf basically does one gate proxy at his natural expo then gas rushes him. So the entire early game never is microing his azz off trying to defend the continuous zeal pressure and had to make 2 rax in to marine medic. He did eventually win but is there a "solid counter" that you do vs this or do u have to micro ur marines the best way possible while getting a bunker up into marine medic?
3) My most important question - Is there ever a point where you stop making scvs? Before you answer let me tell you what I know for sure. I know that in tvz for example you constantly produce scvs,marines,depots up till the muta harrass into lurker transition timing. But once you get ur vessel and have 1-5 units hotkeyed and moving out, I just feel that it greatly disrupts with my multitasking when at that point in the game in tvz, i need to be scanning for where his army,iridating,siegeing tanks+stimming at perfect timing+macroing making more barrax and depots and rines that build fast as heck. And I know this is from macroing bad but even when I stop producing scvs MID GAME i can still have up to 2k some games.So in my mind I always thought halting scvs mid game in tvz was okay. I play vs lots of good zergs and I never had a problem with a steady flow of income but rather having so much income(like 2k even)that I can't spend even when i stopped making scvs at that point. I hope I made everything as clear as possible and sorry it's so long. Thx ^^
Marine23: Sorry that I haven't answered your question earlier, i forgot about it and I've been rather busy the last week, hence not so much updates etc, hope that will change now unless i have work tomorrow of which im not sure yet.
1. I think I explain how to micro vs zealots in the TvP General Tip VOD. If there is an open area you need to walk away with the target of the zealot while letting the other chose, and if he sets a new target move that one and let the others shoot. This can be pretty hard sometimes, specially with lag issues.
If the fight occurs in a ramp position simply put an scv or two to block the zealot.
When the fight occurs in your base you need to take full advantage of your buildingplacement. Usually you will have 2-3 marines when his first zealot arrives. Dont keep one marine hold pos or whatever in the middle of the narrow passage. Grag all the marines and target fire the zealot. When he moves towards you, run all of them through the passage until they are all out of range from his attack, then fire again, he will have to run back to not get fired on. Then you move out when he runs away and follow him to fire again, he will yet again try to kill your marines and you just repeat this movement until you have killed his unit or your tank pops out.
2. There is no "solid counter" to this. You can cut one scv in the middle of producing if its obvious that he's going to steal the gas and take the gas before he can steal it, then cancel with the scvb and go back to minerals for a while before finnishing the refinary.
You can take 5 scv and attack the assimilator and then make refinary, this will give you a slight advantage but vs a lesser player its always good to do this. Just remember that you shall not kill the assimilator if his probe is close by because then he might re-build it before you can place a refinary.
You can proxy a rax and let him take the gas, produce marines from both barracks and scout his main with an scv. When you have aprox 6-10 marines pull all scvs and marines and attack his main. Good micro will win you many games.
3. There is not a time when you should stop producing scvs, but rather a situation. For example if his muta harass was effective, killing alot of scvs, you shouldn't stop producing scvs at the normal timing.
Desicions on SCV production are made for various reasons;
- Cutting, You have a saturated base. Enough scvs, more scvs will not give you greater income.
- Cutting, You are cutting scvs to execute a timing attack or strategy. This will give you a greater economy for a moment since you are not putting any minerals into making scvs.
- Cutting, You need extra suply for units rather than scvs.
- Producing, you need to establish an economy(obiously)
- Producing, you can continue producing scvs on an already saturated base if you have plans of taking another expansion soon. This way when you transfer them, you will have both bases well saturated faster.
If you have more questions feel free to ask.
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ok idont ive might of missed it or forgot in if you said it in your 2hatch counter build but whaat do you do when zergs goes 2hathc lurk?play defencefly?if you come out he can drop lurker and ..... you obviously cant mass rines cuz lurkers will kill it if he contains so you just continue with 9min push but faster 3rd rax ?
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On April 01 2009 06:48 ZzZzAnG wrote: ok idont ive might of missed it or forgot in if you said it in your 2hatch counter build but whaat do you do when zergs goes 2hathc lurk?play defencefly?if you come out he can drop lurker and ..... you obviously cant mass rines cuz lurkers will kill it if he contains so you just continue with 9min push but faster 3rd rax ?
Check the FAQ. 9minpush -> by the bottom.
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That was great, its just.. You didnt explain the build orders. I was a little disappointed when there were these nice strats to go with these nice BOs but the BOs arent there.
Yes, I searched a-yu-mi.
also.. Where are your vods?
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I don't know if someone already said this, but for all the Zergs that said things similar to "I wish there was a Zerg teacher like this" or something along those lines, Ahzz's guide is pretty damn good.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=73314
It's kinda out of date I suppose, so it lacks some of the more recent builds, but there's tons of great stuff in there.
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Hey
I love what you're doing in this thread, but so far, it's all been about BOs and counters. Could you explain some basic and crucial strategies/tactics that Terrans need to master to win games and to come back from lost games? Mechanics can only take you so far vs a player with equal mechanics...like could you outline the basics of superior play?
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RaptuhJeezus: There is a link in the OP to Stylish's FPVods. There you can find all the buildorders to all the strategies (most of them anyway). This is just the complimentary thread where i compile alot of questions that I've answered in that thread basically.
Links to VODs arent working atm, because filefront shut down. I will re-link the VODs as soon as possible.
ImBlind: The main issue im trying to accomplish is to give you something to work on. Buildorders and tips of how to get better at decisionmaking and mechanics overall. Remember that its not really important to win games. As long as you increase your skill the winning will increase over time.
I suppose you're looking for something like Day[9] is talking about in his podcasts? I have thought of making some VODs about how to generally improve and take advantage of a situation etc, I guess they will be up soon enough^^ So be patient.
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On April 01 2009 15:37 StylishVODs wrote: ImBlind: The main issue im trying to accomplish is to give you something to work on. Buildorders and tips of how to get better at decisionmaking and mechanics overall. Remember that its not really important to win games. As long as you increase your skill the winning will increase over time.
I suppose you're looking for something like Day[9] is talking about in his podcasts? I have thought of making some VODs about how to generally improve and take advantage of a situation etc, I guess they will be up soon enough^^ So be patient.
Kk I have played a little less than 20 legit late game TvZs, TvTs, and TvPs. I have thrown away almost all my late games because i don't know what to do compared to mid game.
I guess what im asking about is how to play late game in general compared to mid game. I usually move out with an army in all MUs with the mentality that I'm going to kill their expo or secure my own expo. Then after that, its the same thing all over again.
I am delaying all my games to late game on purpose to practice what i am supposed to do...except what AM I supposed to do late game?
Im not asking about strategy regarding macro and "if...then" scenarios, but about the tactics that use micro and unit management to win the game. At my level, i can't win games with a single huge push; i need some sort of handicap or something that gives me an advantage before I exchange armies. Plus, my push has so many inconsistencies that i can't really accomplish a successful 1hitKO with it...
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Yeah i get your point. I can try to give general tips etc, but if it were possible to tell people what to do in the lategame this game would be easy, and its not The problem with giving tips lategame, specially general tips is that each game looks different and there are alot of things you could do.
"Seeing an opportunity and how to take advantage of it" is probably the best guide I can do for this. I will try to do seomthing like that.
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I have a question stylish. I was watching tossgirl vs casey on gom just now and tastless kept saying that tossgirl should not have been sieging her tanks verse the lurkers casey had because he would just rush in and take out the tanks.
I have this exact same problem, when I have like 1-3 tanks I siege them and the zerg just rushes in. Is there a good time to siege up in zvt vs lurkers or lurkerling? How do you judge when you should or should not siege?
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Usually you want to siege up a few seconds before he decides to move in.
The only reason you shouldnt siege the tanks is if you need to push forward fast and not get delayed, or that zerg has too much units and will simply run you over if you aren't mobile.
Whenever zerg has overwhelming units you need to take advantage of that lurkers need to burrow before they can attack. When he runs in, shoot as much as you can and then move out of range. This includes your tanks.
But generally, whenever you have an equally strong army or slightly less units you should use siegemode and dmatrix / spreadmicro to defeat a zerg army.
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On March 28 2009 20:49 Hundredth wrote:There's like not definitive TvT guides though ;o Anyway, for TvZ could you talk about micro when doing the 9 min push, for example when they flank you how do you rearrange your units etc and how you scout their army positioning. Here's a rep showing what I mean: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=9586The skill difference is pretty big (he's C I'm D) but I feel I kept level with him until he annihilated my push.
+
Why in builds like the ayumi build (or w/e) do you save up then make 3 rax, rather than making each one asap? You'd get your marines out slightly faster then.
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Hundredth: I want to utilize every scv as much as possible since its such an early game strategy. Making them one by one doesnt really matter since you will need to wait for 4 medics before you move out anyway.
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On April 01 2009 22:38 StylishVODs wrote: Usually you want to siege up a few seconds before he decides to move in.
The only reason you shouldnt siege the tanks is if you need to push forward fast and not get delayed, or that zerg has too much units and will simply run you over if you aren't mobile.
Whenever zerg has overwhelming units you need to take advantage of that lurkers need to burrow before they can attack. When he runs in, shoot as much as you can and then move out of range. This includes your tanks.
But generally, whenever you have an equally strong army or slightly less units you should use siegemode and dmatrix / spreadmicro to defeat a zerg army.
cheers.
EDIT: Another question I have is about TvZ, the first upgrade I get is +1 attack when my ebay pops... but I find by around the time it finishes the game is going to start revolving around lurkers not mutas... so would it be better to get +1 armor first to stay alive longer vs lurkers?
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extracheez: If he opens mutalisk i would get +1 attack first. +1 attack is good vs lurkers too and you never know if he's going to make a switch to lurkers, keep producing mutaling, teching to ultralisk or guardians or whatever.
So the answer is no, always start with +1 attack unless you know for sure that he's doing like 2hatch lurker. Vs 3hatch lurker +1 attack or defense, isn't that cruical.
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On April 02 2009 09:08 extracheez wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2009 22:38 StylishVODs wrote: Usually you want to siege up a few seconds before he decides to move in.
The only reason you shouldnt siege the tanks is if you need to push forward fast and not get delayed, or that zerg has too much units and will simply run you over if you aren't mobile.
Whenever zerg has overwhelming units you need to take advantage of that lurkers need to burrow before they can attack. When he runs in, shoot as much as you can and then move out of range. This includes your tanks.
But generally, whenever you have an equally strong army or slightly less units you should use siegemode and dmatrix / spreadmicro to defeat a zerg army. cheers. EDIT: Another question I have is about TvZ, the first upgrade I get is +1 attack when my ebay pops... but I find by around the time it finishes the game is going to start revolving around lurkers not mutas... so would it be better to get +1 armor first to stay alive longer vs lurkers?
I think I can answer this one..I remember hearing TheMarine commentating on Bnet attack(can't remember which progamer right now at the top of hmy head)that if you're confident in your micro then you should upgrade +1 attack first and if not you should get the armor. For my personal preference I like getting +1 armor to reduce the amount of marines I lose and focus alittle less on the micro aspect vs the mutalisk micro. The +1 armor allows me to lose less marines to the hold position micro where if your marines are out of formation for some reason can lose 3+ marines in one shot.
There are builds that gets you the +1 as the mutas come into your base so you must not be doing the build order correctly. Otherwise, your last question just goes back to my first answer in that if your more comfortable with micro you should get the +1 attack first and vice versa. You're basically asking, "Because I won't have +1 atk or +1 armor by the time his mutalisks come, which upgrade do you recommend I get vs lurker?"
edit: ah stylish beat me to it lol. and thanx for the answer to my questions it really helped alot but I just didn't know "the most efficient way" to micro when a goon came with his one zealot which was the timing RIGHT before my 1st tank came out and i had about 4-5 marines rallied behind my supply+rax sim city vs zealot.
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just wanted to thank you stylish - this is a great guide.
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What's the optimal way to fight against a 2 base DT drop into fast arbiters (off 2 base)? I played a game where my opponent did this and I held off the DT harass moderately well but was unsure of how to follow up.
If I'm intending to get my third base early, do I still take it when the Protoss remains on 2 base for a while? Should I instead go up to 6 factories + port?
When should I push? Before arbiters come out? When I've got vessels, emp and a few goliaths while arbs are out?
How do I prepare for an early recall? What formation of turrets/mines around my base should I use?
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Russian Federation6 Posts
Hi there guys, sry for stupid question, i'm just new here so umm where can i find Stylish Vods? i downloaded a pack with 39 vods but donno where can i find other ones... If it is not hard please give me the link. Thx
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On April 03 2009 08:55 Pr0v0kat0r wrote: Hi there guys, sry for stupid question, i'm just new here so umm where can i find Stylish Vods? i downloaded a pack with 39 vods but donno where can i find other ones... If it is not hard please give me the link. Thx
hey, here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86770 welcome to TL :D
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Russian Federation6 Posts
ZzZzAnG, thank u vary much))
Another nooby Question: What means "FD" all guys that i asked for this told me that it is Fast Drop, but in Stylish "Strong FD VOD" there was no starport? So what does it means? Sry again for stupid question
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Last Update 04-03-09
Pr0v0kat0r: FD basically means Fake Double. This is because back in the days, 2factory builds was very common, and by making marines tanks and vultures and move out pretty fast you would fool the protoss into thinking that you actually made 2 factories, but instead you take an expansion and get ahead economically.
Nowadays you cannot fake double. FD stands more for fast expansionbuild with marine, tank, vulture + mines.
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I HAVE A NU VERY IMPORTANT FAQ:
WHERE CAN I BUY A STYLISH POSTER TO HANG ON MY WALL?
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Also, i think that i speak in behalf of the entire terran TL.net comunity when i say give this man a fucking star,thx.
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totally. if it werent for stylish i wouldnt be playing cause id be using b.o's from 98.
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Russian Federation6 Posts
Thank u Stylish very much, for saving my head from cracking.))
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On April 04 2009 08:47 StylishVODs wrote: Last Update 04-03-09
Pr0v0kat0r: FD basically means Fake Double. This is because back in the days, 2factory builds was very common, and by making marines tanks and vultures and move out pretty fast you would fool the protoss into thinking that you actually made 2 factories, but instead you take an expansion and get ahead economically.
Nowadays you cannot fake double. FD stands more for fast expansionbuild with marine, tank, vulture + mines. Q: When you said
Nowadays you cannot fake double. FD stands more for fast expansionbuild with marine, tank, vulture + mines. How is that any different than the one used back in the day? Nowadays you say it stands more for fast expansion with marines, tank, and vult w/ mines but isn't that what a FD was back in the day anyway?
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Thanks for the update stylish. I'd been wondering about some of the variations of the 14cc build as I've used it this week alot for my TvZ games.
Btw you have a typo in your "So what if he does 2hatch lurker?" category of the 14cc section. It says you should move out when you have around 8 factories. I'm sure you meant tanks ><
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On April 05 2009 09:28 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2009 08:47 StylishVODs wrote: Last Update 04-03-09
Pr0v0kat0r: FD basically means Fake Double. This is because back in the days, 2factory builds was very common, and by making marines tanks and vultures and move out pretty fast you would fool the protoss into thinking that you actually made 2 factories, but instead you take an expansion and get ahead economically.
Nowadays you cannot fake double. FD stands more for fast expansionbuild with marine, tank, vulture + mines. Q: When you said Show nested quote +Nowadays you cannot fake double. FD stands more for fast expansionbuild with marine, tank, vulture + mines. How is that any different than the one used back in the day? Nowadays you say it stands more for fast expansion with marines, tank, and vult w/ mines but isn't that what a FD was back in the day anyway?
The difference is in the fact that it is not a fake anymore. People know it for what it is when you move out. The timing and unit count are both telltales of the fact that it is an FD build and not a 2 fac. He's merely refering to the fact that it's silly to be called a fake double when everyone knows it's not a double fac.
In conclusion. He is not saying the build itself is different. He's saying the effect of the build is different.
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On April 05 2009 11:32 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 09:28 Grobyc wrote:On April 04 2009 08:47 StylishVODs wrote: Last Update 04-03-09
Pr0v0kat0r: FD basically means Fake Double. This is because back in the days, 2factory builds was very common, and by making marines tanks and vultures and move out pretty fast you would fool the protoss into thinking that you actually made 2 factories, but instead you take an expansion and get ahead economically.
Nowadays you cannot fake double. FD stands more for fast expansionbuild with marine, tank, vulture + mines. Q: When you said Nowadays you cannot fake double. FD stands more for fast expansionbuild with marine, tank, vulture + mines. How is that any different than the one used back in the day? Nowadays you say it stands more for fast expansion with marines, tank, and vult w/ mines but isn't that what a FD was back in the day anyway? The difference is in the fact that it is not a fake anymore. People know it for what it is when you move out. The timing and unit count are both telltales of the fact that it is an FD build and not a 2 fac. He's merely refering to the fact that it's silly to be called a fake double when everyone knows it's not a double fac. In conclusion. He is not saying the build itself is different. He's saying the effect of the build is different. Oh. Why can't we FD nowadays, does 1gate range expo suddenly > FD expo or something? Why was it a viable build back then but not now?
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Grobyc: It's true what StarBrift said. In the past, protoss players might have thought there was another factory and get 2 gates or fast observers etc but nowadays its sucha common opening that it wont have that extra safety aspect.
Thats why the strong FD is good now because some might think its a normal fd and dont take enough safetyprecautions.
I guess you could still fake the double if you dont pull scv of gas or something like that but most of the time its not worth it. It could be worth it if he just get a glimps of your scvs mining gas before marines kills it and then you pull thewm off only to get like 20-30 extra gas.
Thnx starbrift, no i obviously meant 8 factories hehe. If he gets queens, go for 16 factories because he might broodling some of them!
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On April 05 2009 18:32 StylishVODs wrote: Grobyc: It's true what StarBrift said. In the past, protoss players might have thought there was another factory and get 2 gates or fast observers etc but nowadays its sucha common opening that it wont have that extra safety aspect.
Thats why the strong FD is good now because some might think its a normal fd and dont take enough safetyprecautions.
I guess you could still fake the double if you dont pull scv of gas or something like that but most of the time its not worth it. It could be worth it if he just get a glimps of your scvs mining gas before marines kills it and then you pull thewm off only to get like 20-30 extra gas.
Thnx starbrift, no i obviously meant 8 factories hehe. If he gets queens, go for 16 factories because he might broodling some of them!
That' why you should keep doing the 2 fac nowadays to keep the protoss honest
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United States11390 Posts
On April 05 2009 11:41 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 11:32 StarBrift wrote:On April 05 2009 09:28 Grobyc wrote:On April 04 2009 08:47 StylishVODs wrote: Last Update 04-03-09
Pr0v0kat0r: FD basically means Fake Double. This is because back in the days, 2factory builds was very common, and by making marines tanks and vultures and move out pretty fast you would fool the protoss into thinking that you actually made 2 factories, but instead you take an expansion and get ahead economically.
Nowadays you cannot fake double. FD stands more for fast expansionbuild with marine, tank, vulture + mines. Q: When you said Nowadays you cannot fake double. FD stands more for fast expansionbuild with marine, tank, vulture + mines. How is that any different than the one used back in the day? Nowadays you say it stands more for fast expansion with marines, tank, and vult w/ mines but isn't that what a FD was back in the day anyway? The difference is in the fact that it is not a fake anymore. People know it for what it is when you move out. The timing and unit count are both telltales of the fact that it is an FD build and not a 2 fac. He's merely refering to the fact that it's silly to be called a fake double when everyone knows it's not a double fac. In conclusion. He is not saying the build itself is different. He's saying the effect of the build is different. Oh. Why can't we FD nowadays, does 1gate range expo suddenly > FD expo or something? Why was it a viable build back then but not now? Even with just 1gate nowadays, P can crush FD. ~_~
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On April 06 2009 02:08 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 11:41 Grobyc wrote:On April 05 2009 11:32 StarBrift wrote:On April 05 2009 09:28 Grobyc wrote:On April 04 2009 08:47 StylishVODs wrote: Last Update 04-03-09
Pr0v0kat0r: FD basically means Fake Double. This is because back in the days, 2factory builds was very common, and by making marines tanks and vultures and move out pretty fast you would fool the protoss into thinking that you actually made 2 factories, but instead you take an expansion and get ahead economically.
Nowadays you cannot fake double. FD stands more for fast expansionbuild with marine, tank, vulture + mines. Q: When you said Nowadays you cannot fake double. FD stands more for fast expansionbuild with marine, tank, vulture + mines. How is that any different than the one used back in the day? Nowadays you say it stands more for fast expansion with marines, tank, and vult w/ mines but isn't that what a FD was back in the day anyway? The difference is in the fact that it is not a fake anymore. People know it for what it is when you move out. The timing and unit count are both telltales of the fact that it is an FD build and not a 2 fac. He's merely refering to the fact that it's silly to be called a fake double when everyone knows it's not a double fac. In conclusion. He is not saying the build itself is different. He's saying the effect of the build is different. Oh. Why can't we FD nowadays, does 1gate range expo suddenly > FD expo or something? Why was it a viable build back then but not now? Even with just 1gate nowadays, P can crush FD. ~_~
FD is really viable and used all the times by pros. It have never stoped being a viable build, who said that?
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FD just looks and sounds really cool. That's why it works. Who doesn't love the sight of like 6 marines and a couple vultures and tanks.
But you should Fake the Fake double.
And just plain Double Fact it.
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On April 06 2009 03:28 HooHa! wrote: FD just looks and sounds really cool. That's why it works. Who doesn't love the sight of like 6 marines and a couple vultures and tanks.
But you should Fake the Fake double.
And just plain Double Fact it.
this man is a genius.
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Under TvZ > General Mech tips > Whats the most important thing to think about when meching?
Often, terran players will get their cc up too late when meching, even if the zerg is droning up. Usually you can take the natural pretty fast. For example if he's doing hydralisks you could get cc when stim is half way done and cut 2-3 vultures to get it up fast. You say stim although you are meching, is that supposed to be vulture speed or mines or something instead?
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I got a question about an easy 3rd map specifically Colliseum. The zerg took his 3rd along with his nat so I changed up my build into something of a mess but I wanted early pressure on his third or to be able to take it out period. I almost had it with like 10 rines, 1 medic. ( I think now I left too early tbh). However he had 2 sunkens up plus ling and I just couldnt do it. Do you have any suggestions as to the timing of this kind of thing? Should I be looking to take out that third ASAP or let it be and wait till I grow?
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On April 08 2009 08:04 Grobyc wrote:Under TvZ > General Mech tips > Whats the most important thing to think about when meching?Show nested quote +Often, terran players will get their cc up too late when meching, even if the zerg is droning up. Usually you can take the natural pretty fast. For example if he's doing hydralisks you could get cc when stim is half way done and cut 2-3 vultures to get it up fast. You say stim although you are meching, is that supposed to be vulture speed or mines or something instead? yeah i mean mines;) thnx will edit
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On April 08 2009 13:16 alexpnd wrote: I got a question about an easy 3rd map specifically Colliseum. The zerg took his 3rd along with his nat so I changed up my build into something of a mess but I wanted early pressure on his third or to be able to take it out period. I almost had it with like 10 rines, 1 medic. ( I think now I left too early tbh). However he had 2 sunkens up plus ling and I just couldnt do it. Do you have any suggestions as to the timing of this kind of thing? Should I be looking to take out that third ASAP or let it be and wait till I grow?
it depends on what opening you did. If you did a standard opening (like hte 9minpush) you should make atleast 1 bat 2 medic and move out towards his natural. This way he has to sunken up both main and expansion. Then move back and wait for 9minute. This way he will have spent too much cash on defense. If your doing mech he wont be able to defend all 3 bases that early vs speedvultures. Ayumi will beat him coz he cant set up 5 sunkens on 2 places. 14cc will most likely kill his expansion since you move out with 6rine 2bats 2medics @ 5minutes.
Conclusion: Generally you can just make a preassure to force him into making sunkens and then move back, or you can switch the build to try to kill the third early on by using a 3rax tech build such as the artosis build.
Many times I would suggest taking 2 scvs at 11 or 12 food and kill the sunken outside your natural, specially if you're walling off to avoid rushes.
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Yeah I did a 9min open but pushed the acad wayyy up. wasnt optimized at all, ill try the 14 cc next time. cheers !!
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I wouldn't suggest 14cc for colosseum though;) Many zergs know that terrans like to wallin on colo and will try a rush with sunkens and lings.
Better to just make some kind of 9minpush strat where you destroy the sunken with 2 scvs while building the first rax. Still wallin though. You will be abit economcally behind since u pull 2 scvs early but you will be safe and also only need 1 marine before cc or even after cc.
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Hey Stylish any chance you might do some FAQ on how to adapt the Flash strat to different things like 2 base carrier, 2 base arbiter, 3 base powering and stuff like that? You mentioned it briefly in the vod but it wasn't that specific if I recall correctly.
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hi Stylish and everybody reading this.
I was wondering...
I've had a lot of success with your EE timing attack vs Zerg and i was watching your 9 minute attack FPVOD vs. your teammate and you said you think that should be everybody's standard BO.
I just wanted to know why you wouldn't want the EE timing as a standard BO?
is it because the tech comes too late and its not as good for fighting off mutas?
thanks.
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StarBrift: Sure, but im abit busy atm and going away this weekend.
Zekie: Because the EE strat isn't adaptable enough. A standard BO should be adaptable to whatever the zerg does. If you cannot adapt to almost every situation, you shouldn't use it as a standard buildorder. EE timing is great vs mutaopening, but is not good vs 2hatch lurk or 3hatch lurk +drop. And your tech will be far behind if you don't succeed with the attack.
However, keep practicing it because most zergs will open mutalisks and its a good/fun build, really hard to stop as a zerg unless they know whats coming.
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hi stylish, i was wondering what you think of 2 fact builds vs Protoss.
i always played standard, but recently i saw the gomtv of darkelf vs heng i think it was? either way it was a TvP and both games Darkelf did a 2 fact build (the 2nd game was a proxy though). Daniel Lee and Tasteless said that you have to win the game off of that, but i think if you're able to stop his expo and are able to get yours up well before him then you're far enough ahead to win (i guess this was pretty much game 2 ..)
also if you have time ever i would LOVE to see you play some people with a 2 fact.
thanks again for your time. btw...i loved the 1hour 10minute video on youtube of you explaining a whole tonne about TvZ.
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I think 2fact can be viable in many situation. Specially when almost every terran fast expands or fake double nowadays. You have to do alot of damage though, atleast shut his expansion down and get a bunch of probes or you will fall behind.
But I generally don't like 2fact builds on maps with a ramp such as the pythonramp. Its better if you have no ramp or wide ramps such as rush hour.
I think you can search "super 2 fact" or soemthing on the strategic forum here for a pretty good 2factbuild. IIRC i made some posts there and also uploaded a replay of me doing it.
Here is a link to the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=84652 My replay was on yousendit and isnt working anymore, i'll see if i can find it and ill post it later.
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Stylish whats your favorite 2 fact, Joyo or Gundam?
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LaLaBye: I hardly ever do 2fact, and if I do its something like the one in my previous post. So, I'm sorry can't help you there.
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I have a question about vulture harass when doing flash builds, I'm reasonably good at killing probes with vultures, but often I'm sending them on suicide missions in a group of around 8 and although it does a lot of damage to the P eco, it leaves me with very little vultures for my pushes. How do you judge when to harass and when not to?
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if you can kill an enoughtly good amount of probes harass every time, but the generas rule is tat you dont harass before a push.
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Cheers ajm.
Another tvp question, what is the appropriate response to a 1base tech (like fast reaver/dt drop) lately I've been attempting either an FD or a strong FD but the shuttle/reaver tends to destroy my forces easy. Should I only FD when a protoss FE's? or should I learn to micro better?
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Stylish:
Hey, do you think you could add the effects and cost effectiveness of each upgrade?
For example in your mech game FPVOD you mention that +attack vs hydras and +armor vs mutas/lings. I'm pretty sure I remember other bits of advice but as a whole it is very fragmented and not at all concise. It would be excellent to have a good summary on each upgrade ours and P/Z and the effect of say + 1 atk vs + armor for Toss, etc.
Also, in each set of upgrades, mention which you should get first, etc. For example Stim over Range unless bunker or whatnot. Thanks, your VODs have been immensely helpful.
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Stylish:
How would you deviate the 9 min push when he goes 2 hatch lurkers. I saw the 2 hatch VODs but they were against 2 hatch mutas.
Thank You
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hi stylish.
I just watched game 3 of Hwasin vs keke in the GomTV season 3 RO64 and Hwasin did a 1 rax FE into a 4 rax timing attacking right before the mutas popped (well he was a bit late but it still owned keke).
i was wondering if you knew that build or if one day if you ever have free time if you could do an FPVOD on it?
thanks
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On April 18 2009 01:43 zekie wrote: hi stylish.
I just watched game 3 of Hwasin vs keke in the GomTV season 3 RO64 and Hwasin did a 1 rax FE into a 4 rax timing attacking right before the mutas popped (well he was a bit late but it still owned keke).
i was wondering if you knew that build or if one day if you ever have free time if you could do an FPVOD on it?
thanks
Check the Ayumi vod stylish released. I'm pretty sure it's the same build.
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hey stylish im not sure if this been mentioned but how do you react to fast arbiters?for example p goes dt drop into fast arb and then expo
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On April 10 2009 06:29 LaLaBye wrote: Stylish whats your favorite 2 fact, Joyo or Gundam?
2fac tanks is usually too slow to deal any major damage before the toss gets his eco up. 2fac vultures w/ tank follow up has won many more games than straight up 2fac tanks has for me.
If he is getting his expo up, you should have little/no problems running up the ramp or pushing the goons back with 4-6 vultures + marines/tank, provided he did not scout your 2fac.
If he did not expo, then plant mines and prepare for some tech build. This is when you stop producing vultures and get tanks + seige w/ detection.
If you know what tech route he is going...
Reavers = stop vultures, use what mines you have left to defend base, seige tech and turrets asap
DT = mass vultures + mine, start expo.
Obs = get tank/seige asap, build cc in main, run vultures around to stall for as much time as you need
3gate =Seige up / put 3 turrets around tanks + build a wall at natural expo w/ mines.
Any 2fac build has some serious weakness to protoss tech, which makes it hard to use if you don't know what to do. 2fac vultures lets me have map control, which i use to scout and adapt to the build he is doing. If you go 2fac tanks, you have to prepare for DT, reavers, and 3gate b/c you have no idea what he is doing.
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Hi Stylish, I have a few questions for TvZ late game.
1. If I scan a 3~4 base gas ultra build, (No defiler tech) What would be your standard follow up? 2 fac tank? I always follow up with mines/vulture and mine up my nat, but my SK Terran can never overpower ultra/ling. I know I lack using my vessels to full potential, (I usually have 8 vessels with a lot of energy, try irradiating more?) So my question is, should I go for mass tanks/cut vessel?
Okay, that was one question, not a few... Thanks in advance
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i think he answered that in the faq
ultra rush
go sk terran with mines
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I just got 1 base lurker stomped. I was totally lost cause I hardly believed what i was seeing. Any suggestions? I was going for a 2 fac vulture all-inish in tau cross. I spotted no expo and hydra den but nothing clicked in my brain telling me what to do next I assumed it would be no problem.
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
I asked Stylish how you respond to a one-base Lurker play, and I believe he said: As soon you as scout it, put down an ebay. Bunker up at your ramp (assuming that you haven't expo'd yourself) and put a turret there. And then continue for a timing push with a group or 2 of MnM's and a tank or 2. But seeing that you were going for a 2Fac, I would research mines, go a little more tank heavy and push out when you put down an academy and attached comsats.
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If you notice the zerg drone count is low and you did a 1 rax->Fast CommandCenter and did a Gas->Acad->+2Rax build, how can you fend off a 3 hatch speedling build? Honestly i've tried alot of things, put a bunker+supply and even pulled scvs from nat off. Hes running at me with maybe 3 control groups, and I just got my meds popped out, maybe an FB or 2, and like 1 control group of marines. Its extremely annoying.
Also, For 2 Hatch Muta, how do you fend off muta attacks in your main, and then watch out for some sort of all in Muta+Ling attack at your natural choke?
How should you react to a zerg that does an extremely fast Lair build, even before he gets speed, and does a gas before pool build, and you've already started a 1 barrack into command center. Should you just add on a few more rax and do a push? His muta's pop extremely early, almost 1 minute after my natural is up and I have maybe barely 1 control group of marines and 3 medics to run around my base.
Thanks in advance for all the help!
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Ok I'm back to answer some questions. Sorry that I haven't written anything for a while but lately I've lost some interest in starcraft due to the virus on my computer not letting me record anything and alos summer coming up soon and im working out and improving my guitarskillz and got other things on my mind atm. But I will check in once in a while and answer a row of questions so here we go.
Leaf_SD: Your questions is answered in the FAQ in this thread. + Show Spoiler +How do I counter 2 hatch lurks (Fast Expand and/or quick Hive) + Show Spoiler + 2Hatch lurk usually means all-in at the front or drop in main and natural at the same time. Therefore you have to make 2 medics and then 2 bats and
move outside zergs natural for a while to force him to make sunkens. Then draw back after you've delayed the lurkers for a little while and build 2 bunkers at home. When moving out with the first 10marines 2bats and 2medics, bring 1 scv also to scout expansions. If he has one you will be able to kill it with this initial troop.
When you have 6 marines use an scv to scout towards his natural. If you see him getting speed before the scv dies with his lings you will have to be aware of a ling break. I usually make a bunker for this, keep my units in my ramp and be ready to pull scvs.
Continue with the 9minpush build, but when the star ort is finished i make a second factory and science facility at the same time, i skip second ebay and also the first upgrade should be armor and not attack. The 100 gas that was meant for +1 attack in the second ebay will now go into the factory.
Don’t make a drop ship, 2hatch lurker is aggressive build, you cannot afford leaving your base this early.
Add rax for a total of 4 rax, 2fact 1 port and remember to keep some units in your main awaiting lurker drop, but close enough to the natural that you can siege up on the cliff. Also remember that you only need 1 vessel. After that i usually make a drop ship and pretty much use my gas to make tanks.
Once the vessel is out you can scan, since if its not out you need all energy to scan drops and whatnot, his base and see if he's going hive or if he's trying to macro up. The important thing to know is that once you've defended the early attack or drop, you are ahead, specially with 2 factories making tanks, so you don't have to be hasty. Move out when you feel comfortable doing so, for example with 6+tanks. Always time your attack if you see him teching to hive. You know approximately how long it will take for your troops to arrive at his base. Aslong as
you get there before his consume is finished its always good to have the largest amount of tanks you can have and still make it in time.
If he's not teching to hive, you can very well wait for 8+ tanks or whatever because you have a more economical opening if he 2hatches and will only get further and further ahead as the game goes on.
One important thing is, that you probably need to add atleast 2 bunkers pretty early on in your expansion vs a 2hatch lurkerbuild. This, and also as soon as you notice a drop coming, be prepared that he will most likely drop both main and expansion at the same time.
Zekie: I'm sorry I will not be able to record a VOD of that build since I have this virus. However the build is not that hard. You simply take your expansion with 1 rax and then add refinary and academy after the third suply and then research stim and cut scvs to be able to make 4 more barracks. Keep cutting scvs and build suply and marines/medics from all barracks and attack at like 7:30. The attack is slower than the ayumubuild but also you have more marines and will have range. You can build some turrets in your main after you move out but he will most likely have to go back with mutalisks to prevent getting stopmed. Good luck.
ZzZzang: Fast arbiters is a good build and you can watch oysteins vods to know an appropriate dtdrop timing and learn from that. The thing is to place your turrets at locations that covers the important stuff and be ready for a drop. If you succeed in killing or defending from the dts you can either get scans and get a fast third to go lategame or you can use vultures with mines/speed faster than usual to move out and lay mines because he will most likely lack observers if he's going a 2base arbiterbuild. Lay some minefields and try to harass him with the vultures and at the same time move your tanks and scvs to the push area while you distract him with the vultures. If you get up a contain with mines tanks and a turret or two he will be in big trouble. Best thing is doing this with 4 factories i believe, because its faster and the contain needs to be up before the first arbiter pops.
From there push slow and careful until you reach the nexus and take it out. Gl.
nozaro32: Usually if the zerg has 4bases ultratech and you have two bases you're going to lose the game and you need to either preassure him more so that he cannot get 4base utlratech or expand faster yourself so you're on 3 bases. So lets discuss the two different scenarios.
2base terran vs 3base zerg lategame. Zerg is going to tech to hive and try to expand one more time. What you need to do here is to put constand preassure on his different bases and try to sneak in a drop here and there to force him to produce constant units and therefor he cannot tech to ultralisks. In this case you will need 8+ rax and 2starport vessel/dropship action. If you at any point notice that you wont be able to stop him from securing a 4th base you need to take a third yourself and either add a second factory and start producing tanks if you mean to be defensive for a while before moving out or add a third starport (if the expansion has gas) and definately 3-4 more barracks if you're going to be offensive.
3base terran vs 4base zerg(ultratech usually) Since my playstyle is very agressive, I'd rather add a third starport to make vessels and keep constant preassure. This way you will most likely irradiate his ultralisks far from your base and the action will take place far away from your expansions. Be sure to use the lone factory to make vultures/mines aswell and always send scvs out in different directions to scout any possible small group of zergunits with a defiler heading towards your expansions.
If you are more of a defensive player you should rather make a second factory and sometimes even a third, specially if you only have 1 starport already. 2-3fact tanks are able to defend vs ultrlisks pretty well and when you make a move with 10+ tanks you are going to be quite strong vs any groundunits. The reason why you cannot make vessles without tanks if you are a defensive player is that you cannot affort irradiation ultralisks that are close to your base since they will actually just cause more damage if the health hasn't gone down alot before they attack you.
I do suggest practicing the first method because it will help you improve your multitasking and being aggressive overall wich is a great attribute vs any zergplayers imo.
Alexpnd: If you notice zerg doing 1hatch hydrabuild and you are going 2fact vults with speed you are doing fine. Use vulturemicro to pick of lone hydralisks and run around them and kill reinforcements and then attack from both sides or whatever because your vultcount will be enough vs his hydras when he reachers your base. And if he waits for more hydra before moving out you can just wait for mines and layy minefields all over the place. 1 base hydra is easy to beat with 2fact vults :D
LaLaBye: 1. You have to have 4 marines already in the bunker and the rest of them at the ramp. Then use the scvs to protect the marines. He cannot break that and he will try to attack the cc or whatever he can, then just lift of and wait for firebats. Move out with 10+marines 2 bats and 2medics and he cannot kill you if you practice your micro and also be sure that you have stim ready before landing cc again if he has lots of lings.
2. I always split up my units into two groups and usually vs 2hatch play I also make a bunker in my natural. Keep making turrets if he keeps making mutalisks, you can have more turrets at the mineralline of your main for example and less at you barracks because your units are going to be there and then run as fast as possible to the ramp if he decides to attack with mutalisks and lings. If you can keep the macro up ad defend at the same time he wont be able to outmacro you unless he's jaedong.
The key is to keep making 1 turret at a time on 3 locations at the same time if you notice that he keeps producing mutalisks. And how do you know that he's doing that? keep scanning his base^^
3. You do the 2hatch counter build that i explain in my vod. Add a third rax after the ebay and add comsats directly after academy. Make turrets in time (you will have scan in time) and make them one by one on 3 locations at the same time while keep producing marines and adding a bunker in your natural. Mutas will be out at about 5:50-6:10 and you will have some seconds before they arrive at your base. If there is any obvious locations where he will strike first, start by adding 2 turrets there directly. Also do this if the location is specifically hard to defend vs mutas such as under a cliff etc...
For more information, please read the FAQ about how to counter 2hatchmuta and watch the VOD.
Good luck guys!
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I think nozaro32 was talking about the crazy zerg strategy. Where zerg gets an early chamber for +1 carapace buys time with mutas and goes straight to ultras, skipping lurkers.
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On April 22 2009 19:06 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I think nozaro32 was talking about the crazy zerg strategy. Where zerg gets an early chamber for +1 carapace buys time with mutas and goes straight to ultras, skipping lurkers.
Ok. Since he said 3-4 expansions and mentioned lategame i assumed it was the other way around. Anyway, I think the explenation on how to defeat a 2base ultrarush in the FAQ. And if he does 3 base ultrarush (which wont really be a rush) you can just proceed with the 9min push and go for his main.
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Hey Stylish
I have a question about moving out before the 9 min mark. If I recall correctly, you said not to move out with just M&M before the 9 min mark. However, I encounter some problems if I leave the Zerg alone (i.e. not forcing Sunkens at 6:00 into the game):
Lately, a lot of Zergs I've played against have taken a very fast 3rd base (way before their Mutalisk harass starts) in order to get more gas. When I move out at the 9 min mark, their force is often overwhelming me. What can I do against a Zerg taking such an early 3rd since I'm not supposed to move out? Can I just throw some Firebats in and move out nevertheless or am I going to be lacking Marines when the Mutalisk harass starts? Thx in advance!
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You can use some marines and medics before his mutalisks pops and move abit towards his base to force him to make 2+ sunkens but when executing the 9minpush you generally cant move out until the vessel is finnished, because you have to defend from mutalisks and then there might be hold lurkers.
If you notice that he's overexpanding like placing his third hatch in a new expansion or anything like that you can just switch to the ayumi build or some sort of a raxheavy build. Just be prepared for that he can use his lings to backstab if you move out too early.
So the answer is yes, you can move out with a group to preassure his natural at about 6 minutes but don't go too far, just force him to make the sunkens. If you play him many times, switch up the build abit. Switch back and forth between 9minpush and ayumi for example and he might not be so greedy the next time. Usually when I face a zerg who gets the third expo before his spire is finnished i'm still able to defeat his army and go for his main using the 9minpush. It's designed so that the third gas wont have been up long enpough to really matter much.
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Thank you very much for your answer. I went over my replays again and my losses against early-expanding Zergs seem to be at least partially caused by a macro issue occuring around the time I push out. I will definitely try to switch builds up in a series, but we're talking about ICCUP D-D+ range, so I'll just change my build to the A-Yu-Mi build when spotting an early expansion. Btw, how are your computer issues? Any chance we might get some new replaypacks soon?
EDIT: It's not possible to switch to the A-Yu-Mi build because the Zerg takes his "early" expansion after you have to decide what build you're going to use. Thus, the only solution is to improve my macro even more.
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d1v: My computer still has virus and I cannot record anthing at the moment, however i got some replays that i will make a pack of soon. Mostly of the 8rax mech build though from iccup.
Yes I know it can be too late for the ayumi, but switch between 9minpush and ayumi sometimes in a bo5 etc so you make the zerg afraid of taking expansions. You don't have to switch to the ayumi, try the EE timing or just a normal 5rax build if he takes his third too soon. Whats important is that you're going to be strong in the early midgame and take out his natural or his expansion with marines. You can do that in a numerous ways, try cutting some scvs to get another rax up and more marines some time before you move out, it helps alot.
The EE timing build is actually really strong and I have almost never lost a game with it when the zerg opens mutalisks. So if you know that your opponent is opening mutalisks you should really switch in that build sometimes.
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Thanks Stylish, you're the man! Going to learn the EE timing as well and see what I get out of it.
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Hey stylish. Do you think you could put up some advice on how many factory you should build depending on how P expoing and what he does and maby go into some more detail to that?. I think u mention this in some reply on the fpvod thread, but I don't want to browse 50 pages to find it and it could always be good for other players to read it here on ur FAQ thread. I have really troubeling to judge how many facs I should bring up depending on what the protoss do. Since he's putting up he's third on diffrent times. Then my 5 facs wont work. Somtimes P goes dt drop, but even if he hardly kill anything I m still stalled a bit and he gain on it. Take care and hope u get rid of that damned Virus soon
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
On April 25 2009 12:52 ZeKk wrote: Hey stylish. Do you think you could put up some advice on how many factory you should build depending on how P expoing and what he does and maby go into some more detail to that?. I think u mention this in some reply on the fpvod thread, but I don't want to browse 50 pages to find it and it could always be good for other players to read it here on ur FAQ thread. I have really troubeling to judge how many facs I should bring up depending on what the protoss do. Since he's putting up he's third on diffrent times. Then my 5 facs wont work. Somtimes P goes dt drop, but even if he hardly kill anything I m still stalled a bit and he gain on it. Take care and hope u get rid of that damned Virus soon I believe the # of factories you have should be dependent on YOUR economy, not the Protoss's. Just because the protoss has like 4 bases, doesn't mean you can run like 12 facs efficiently off of 2 bases.
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On April 25 2009 17:16 SilverskY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 12:52 ZeKk wrote: Hey stylish. Do you think you could put up some advice on how many factory you should build depending on how P expoing and what he does and maby go into some more detail to that?. I think u mention this in some reply on the fpvod thread, but I don't want to browse 50 pages to find it and it could always be good for other players to read it here on ur FAQ thread. I have really troubeling to judge how many facs I should bring up depending on what the protoss do. Since he's putting up he's third on diffrent times. Then my 5 facs wont work. Somtimes P goes dt drop, but even if he hardly kill anything I m still stalled a bit and he gain on it. Take care and hope u get rid of that damned Virus soon I believe the # of factories you have should be dependent on YOUR economy, not the Protoss's. Just because the protoss has like 4 bases, doesn't mean you can run like 12 facs efficiently off of 2 bases.
I would like to know what factory amount is suitable depending on what protoss have and doing. Of course im not sitting on a 2 bases when protoss has 4 bases and pumping out of 12 facs, hell can you even afford that? Somtimes you can kill the protoss with a fewer facs and a timing push rather than trying to set up as many factory you can, just becuase u can afford it dosen't mean it's the best way or the only way. You see my point now?
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I've always wondered ... Which group of scvs do you transfer from every time a new expo is up. For instance, Main --> Nat(transfer like 6-7 scvs) then when you make your other expos how does it work? After transfering scvs to your nat in the first part of game, do you transfer scvs to the 3rd expo from nat or main? Is it like a domino effect? Any ideas? It's obviously going to be the CC that seems to have the most scvs and whatever is mined out, but I was wondering if there is a more efficient way to do this.
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HyoRiN: Usually, if you have 2 bases running and are going to transfer to a third grab about 6 scvs from both bases and then transfer. Use the shift click to grab 6 from your main and then add 6 from your natural to make a group of 12.
In the lategame, usually you can transfer SCVs from bases that are outmined.
Zekk: I'll answer your question soon I'm busy atm.
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On April 25 2009 17:16 SilverskY wrote:+ Show Spoiler + I believe the # of factories you have should be dependent on YOUR economy, not the Protoss's. Just because the protoss has like 4 bases, doesn't mean you can run like 12 facs efficiently off of 2 bases.
im pretty sure you can run 6 facts pretty easily off 2 bases and 9 facts off 3 bases...
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Hey Stylish, sorry if you have answered this somewhere, i looked that FAQ and didn't get the answer.
So lets say i am doing the 9 min push, and the zerg goes for the muta into lurks. He gets his 3rd at his initial muta harras He gets his 4th at 9:21 and Hive at 11ish For this do we still wait for the Hive tech or the 2-1 or what? to start? Or should I have pushed him at the 3rd.?
Lets say he goes the standard muta harras or even just uses like 6 mutas, and then takes a quick 3rd, while getting lurkers and hive and such. Do you still wait for the 9 min push or do you move out sooner, because it seems that if he takes the 3rd early enough, he will get a great eco advantage, and have so many lurks when you push out.
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Tbake: Continue with the 9min push. He will still not have an obvious advantage on you, specially since he need to split his units to defend the drop aswell. If you play an opponent over and over again, switch in some other builds if you want to win more and not only focus on getting better. Not only extreme ones such as the a-yu-mi build but also another version of a standard build like the 3rax tech that artosis described to put early midgame preassure.
What you describe is pretty much a standard zergopening, but the zerg might make less mutas and get his third up alittle sooner. If you notice his lack of mutalisks you can move out with 15marines and some medics and put preassure on him, forcing him to make sunkens or zerglings rather than drones and then go back again, or cut turrets to make an aditional barrack so you aswell get a bigger army for the push.
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Zekk: Your question is actually more about timingpushes than factories. You can find answers to your question under, TvP -> General -> "What are the different pushes good for?"
Generally, 4fact vs greedy toss, 5 fact vs normaltoss specially when reaveropening, 6fact vs normal toss and unitheavy/nongreedy toss.
To keep up with the protoss macro in the lategame, in a situation where you both have NO units and start to remacro it depends on the number of machineshops and is really hard to generalize. But for a terran its really good to be able to have about the same ammount of factories as the protoss has gateways, and good enough with slightly fewer factories.
In a situation where you have already built up a decent tankbase and you don't lose them all in the big clash you don't need as many factories and can have 2/3 the ammount of gateways but its really hard to generalize.
The best generalization I can give is; Protoss generally needs 1 more base than terran. This will give him the oppertunity to have more macrobuildings since he has more economy. X-base terran vs X+1-base toss is playable from both sides, with slight advantage for the toss when X is low. Therefor its also ok to have enough factories that X bases can suply vs the gateways X+1 bases can supply for the protoss.
1 base terran can suply 2 factories with machineshops or 3 factories with vultures. 2 base terran can support 6 factories max. 3 base terran can support about 9-10 factories depending on how fast you take it. 4 base terran can generally not support more than 10 factories because one base should be mined out, but if you have 4 bases running i think you can have something like 15++ factories.
Good luck!
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Hey
How do I protect my expos in TvP?
I always find it hard when I'm playing and then the protoss suddenly appears on my 3rd with a reaver or a bunch of zealots and kills everything there...
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EsX_Raptor:
Terran cannot defend expansions vs protoss in general, thats why the matchup is played the way it is.
You need to have your expansions clutched together as close as possible while it is the protoss job to expand over the map. Terran should not split up his units in the early midgame and still be able to defend all bases, which are usually 2 3 or 4 on some maps.
The best way to not let protoss attack vulnerable positions that are not covered by your units with a reaver or such is to use turrets and mines properly.
Protoss units are more mobile than terran units with the exeption of vultures, therefor laying minefields is the only way to slow down a protoss attack until you can get there to defend with more units.
So to answer your question. In early game, use turrets and mines to protect areas that you cannot get to fast enough with your units that should be kind of clutched together at a strategic location to cover big attacks on your bases.
In lategame, when having to take expansions further away from your main base, use minefields to cover the area that protoss units have to run past to get to your expansion. This will give you time to defend it. Also use turrets to defend vs drops and you can place a few tanks and vults but not that many to defend vs stray zealots or whatever that would sneak through. Also try to take expansions that are in a location that might be covered by your push.
If you're making a push, your macro and minefields is what will help you defend possible counters. If you keep your macro up there is a big chance that tanks+mines will be able to defend a possible counter, and if the counter is too big this will still give you time to reinforce with units from the push.
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
On April 26 2009 22:15 unknown.sam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 17:16 SilverskY wrote:+ Show Spoiler + I believe the # of factories you have should be dependent on YOUR economy, not the Protoss's. Just because the protoss has like 4 bases, doesn't mean you can run like 12 facs efficiently off of 2 bases.
im pretty sure you can run 6 facts pretty easily off 2 bases and 9 facts off 3 bases... I know that. I never said you can't in my post. :S
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When should you get armory+acad in relation to a timing push, and is different for each one ie 4 fact 6 fact etc.
Also, when going for a 2/1 max push when is the proper timing to get starport and 2nd armor?
Thanks in advance!
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Tnx a great deal for adding on new question to the faq stylish!
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On the TvZ 2 Port wraith: Why do you proxy the factory?
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Russian Federation6 Posts
Stylish, I always having problems with the Wall building. are there any guides that u made about it? i'm sorry if someone asked u about that, but your threds are sooo huge and i'm not able to read all that. So if this kind of thing exists please give me the link. And if its not then will u make a some kind of VOD about that, later ofcource? And by the way sorry for my stupidnes, i alredy asked this question and did not understand, umm where I can find your new VODs? All that I watched is that 38 pack of VODs... and thats all)) So if it is not hard please help me in this too)) Oke. hope u'll answear my questions)) Thank u for all that u are doing tor Terrans of all over the world, and sorry for my english))
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On April 29 2009 09:40 Muff2n wrote: On the TvZ 2 Port wraith: Why do you proxy the factory?
Becuase he can. Have a factory closer to the enemy with less travel distand, making them coming earlier. Besides even if Z finds it he can still just fly away and he's going Wraiths anyway so u wont be using the fac for a while. Ain't that right Styl?
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LaLaBye: Yes its usually different for each build and for what the protoss does. In all my builds I show when I usually get armory and academy.
Academy has 3 major perposes.
- Detect DTs - so you can kill them.
- Scan for buildings or expansions - so you can chose a build/pushtime.
- Support the push with vision - so you can detect dts and know where the protoss units are.
So basically, if you need detection for a dtrush academy should be places very fast, however usually you place an EBay instead. If you want to know what kind of push you should do or when to move out, the scan should be up while making the factories. If you want to have scan when you move out with units, the scan should be up when you move out with your troops.
The armory servers 2 major purposes.
- Upgrading units - combined with a timing push or just for better outcome in the later battles.
- Getting goliaths - vs air units.
If you think you'll need a couple of goliaths with your initial push due to possible shuttleaction, it might be a good idea to get armory fast enough so you can have about 2 goliaths in your initial push. If you're getting an armory, its almost always worth it to start the upgrade even if it wont be ready for the first push.
If you mean to time the upgrades to a push you should get it fast enough so it will give you the upgrade once you move out, in many cases this is before you make the second factory.
Muff2n: There are several reasons to proxy and not proxy a factory.
Pros:
- Units will arrive faster to your opponent.
- Factory might not get detected, units might not be spotted, opponent might be surprised.
- Close distance if you want to float it towards your opponents base.
- You don't have to lift the barrack when you move out with factoryunits.
Cons:
- Scv might get spotted, drone can kill the scv.
- Slightly lower economy due to one scv not mining while moving towards a location.
- Factory will have to float far if you're going to use it in the later game.
Yes ZeKk you are correct. I usually find the pros > cons when making this build. But I don't always proxy it.
Pr0v0kat0r: Use the link dead9 gave you: Wall guide thread
I haven't looked at all the positions but many of them seem fine vs protoss. If you're looking for wallins vs zerg you will sometimes need lingproof walls. I have no guide for that yet, I might put it up later but for now, best thing might be to watch how the progamers do it. Watch alot of Fantasy-VODs he usually makes a wall.
I hope this helps. Gl hf!
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Pr0v0kat0r: You can find links to all VODs in the opening post in this thread.
Click on the spoilers and chose any VOD you might want to see. I don't know how many there are now, I guess like 40 because I cannot make more at the moment, my computer has a virus.
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Russian Federation6 Posts
OK Thank u vary much Dead9 and Stylish for walling Faq i havent seen that. About VODs, The main spoiler is called Terran FAQ after that goes Introduction / General then>>TvZ then>>TvP and under this spoilers there are only Faqs but not the VODs! And another spiler tha i c is called Last Update 04-27-09. I'm varry sorry for those stupid questions i really feel myself like a jerk but i really want to see your VODs!
OMG i'm so sorry for annoyng! I finaly find them in your another thred! i'm vary sorry for my brainfuck)) Again thank u guys. i'll go practicing.
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Heh ok, you have to click on Stylish's FPVods in the opening post of this thread to get to the actual VOD thread. :D gl hf
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Don't you think that the armory/academy has the amazing strength to kill observers? To me thats the best thing ever. 2 goliaths and a scan can take out 1 to 2 observers. Every race has a good/unique scouting pro. If you take protoss' vision away then they are forced to make blind judgments and will run into more mines. (although at my level I feel it is better to turret up my bases perimeter to ward off reavers. observers and 4 dt drops. Most people cant look at army composition and tell how many factories you have so the obs aren't that great without base vision.)
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wow, this is absolutely incredible stylish, thanks!
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It's pretty funny. I try to improve my Z by watching Vods and replays and studying them, but this post alone pretty much makes me offrace as T almost as well as I would play my main race (with which i've got tons more practice). Always happy to see updates on this page! Thanks a bunch
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Thnx guys! Hammy you should switch to terran and check out my FPVOD thread aswell, haha^^
Bebop Berserker: Yes, taking out observers is really good and underused by foreigners today. You usually will benefit the most if you take out observers at specific locations/situations. Here is some examples:
- Kill observer(s) over your factories - This will put the protoss in the dark and he will not know what build you're using.
- Shoot down the observer outside your natural before moving out - Protoss will not know when you move out or how many units you have.
- Snipe observers at your push - This will force protoss to delay his attack or suffer a cruel death to vulturemines.
Think of these things if you have scan + goliaths. But never use a scan if its your last detection and you don't know if he has dts. This is also why vessels are good, not only for their EMP.
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Hi stylish, where can I find the buildorder for the "siege expand" strat? What strat do you recommend for a beginner? Thx in advance!
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Thanks for the reply. 2nd Q: What to do v a P who gas steals you? I know to build my own refinery when a robe comes near but Im still nub enough that I fail sometimes. I have seen the other threads but want to hear your voice xD. Some people have said to grab scv and charge if it is short position, if so, would you leave enough (say 2) to afford a constant amount of rines/a bunker? Thanks again.
-Also I notice there is no BO for the TvP drop. Would you like me to watch your vod and record the BO?
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What do you guys think about using D matrix on marines when zerg gets ultras?
I notice that when you have mass mnm vs ultras and you irradiate the ultras, it kills your mnms faster than the ultras. So if you were to d matrix in this situation, would you be better off?
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On May 07 2009 01:02 extracheez wrote: What do you guys think about using D matrix on marines when zerg gets ultras?
I notice that when you have mass mnm vs ultras and you irradiate the ultras, it kills your mnms faster than the ultras. So if you were to d matrix in this situation, would you be better off?
Yes, if you have energy when a battle occurs, use dmatrix, almost never irradiate. Sometimes you can irradiate an ultra which you see will splash a lot of lings, otherwise no.
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You should still be scanning for Lurkers or defilers, I think that would take priority over d-matrix, but if it's just ultra's and cracks, try to dmatrix the front most marines (or if you really good, the marine that is getting attacked)
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As a player just trying to get back into the game, this is a great resource. Greatly appreciated.
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I Have been doing a Lot of 8 rax into mech play on destination.(excellent on rush hour 2 as well but its not like T doesn't already have a huge advantage.) Anyways I found that if he goes mutas to always get mines. If my timings are correct(Im only c minus so idk if my opponents have been 2 hatching properly) I sneak into the main and run around until i get mines then can place a few mines and pop the eggs of his mutas in his main. That means he now has 4 max total mutas to work with. (P.S. I do MUCH better with micro oriented builds. My concentration screws up my macro too much to do 4 base play worth shit. My APM is like 80 higher when i do micro oriented builds XD) Try it out on a higher level and report back plz.
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Lew: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86770¤tpage=53
Muff2n: If protoss steals gas there is a high possibility he will produce some zealots before his first dragon and also proxying gateways. You should be careful with your simcity build (the way you place your buildings to gain advantage over your attacker). I explain some of the buildingplacements in the tvp general tips vod.
From there you should either kill the refinary and carry on as usual. Use 4-5 scvs and be sure not to kill it when his probe is close because he might try to rebuild it. This will give you a slight disadvantage in the early game since pulling that many scvs cost slightly more than pulling an early probe and make an assimilator. But its very doable, specially on lower ranks.
Or, you could use your scouting scv to make a second barrack (at 11 food) in a proxylocation and make about 6-8 rines before you attack. Use the mineraltrick to pull about 12 scvs along with your attack. This will leave 3-4 scvs in main and you can continue to produce marines and make a bunker.
Or, you can make a bunker in your natural and expand faster. Reason is that the protoss will have spend early minerals on an assimilator rather than on gateways and his goonrange wll be greatly delayed.
Extracheez: Generally, only irradiate ultralisks if they are far from your units. Sometimes its useful to sacrifice a few vessels in order to fly around the map and irradiate ultralisks. If they are about to attack you or you're about to attack them, always d-matrix your front marines.
Bebop Bereserker: I dont reccomend getting mines if you face a zerg with fast gas. Its better to upgrade vulturespeed.
If you do the 8raxmech you will usually go 2fac and therefor getting 6 vults before speed kicks in. Its much easier to sneak into his main if you have speed and you can snipe alot of drones since the mutas will not be able to kill the vultures if you run the around the mutalisks. He might also get a few hydras before mutalisks and it will be almost impossible to sneak through with slow vults.
If you can get 3 or more vultures in his base and you notice his spire is almost finnished, you can go for his larvas with the attack. They will die really fast if they are not eggs morphing already. Usually, if he goes straight for 2hatchmuta, 8rax mech with speedvults is a freewin.
Only get mines if he's doing some sort of hydra attack. Otherwise, go directly from speed into goliathrange or expansion.
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TvP...Asking About My Build.. This is what I Do. Tell Me If its Good or Not. lol
I Start off with Your Drop ship Build. I drop 1 tank 2 vults During This Time I'll have made 1+ factory (total 2 facts) reload ship with 3 vults if protoss made an expo and drop there.. During the drop I'll start my push.. While pushing i'll create an expo then try and create around 2-3 facts (5Facts) 1 with shop and 4 without.. and keep up pressure while i expand again.. then i'll drop 1 more time..
Questions During This Build: When Do I get Academy? What Happens if my drop ship is discovered and Drop was prevented? how Should I react? During Push Should I worry about getting Science Vessel? If my push is broken should I Wait until I'm Maxed? or when Toss attacks?
If you have answered any of these questions can You tell me which page lol... And I cant find your Pack 2 Of Vods of games.. lol can you guide me Thx
TvZ I like to use your 9minPush, Ay yu Mui or something, and EE timing builds.. and I always Have a Problem with Mutas.. Once I have everything Should I just leave My base For the Muta's To mess around with? cause normally The Muta's attack turrets and supplies and stuff. Or should I keep a few marines inside the base and defend then Leave?
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JaMsLeGs: TvP With the dropstrat I usually just drop once and then do the fakedrop and attack frontqal with 3tanks, 4marines and rallied vultures. Attacking early will help you since he's getting an expansion and you're not, so as long as the game goes on the protoss is likely to catch up unless you do megadamage with your drops.
You don't need academy for this first push usually unless you've spotted a templar archives, but its good if ebay is finnished when your tanks arrives so you can make some turrets if needed, also a bunker is good.
When attacking you can make a CC and go from there for 5fact push if your first one wasn't successful. If you do this, make a few turrets to defend your base while you get the 5fact and be sure to have academy ready when you move out. DUring this time you can use the dropship you have to do constant harass and try to keep some mapcontrol with vultures.
If the drop is prevented its an uphill battle. Then I guess a good thing might be to go back with the drop, go for a frontal attack and fake the drop in the first try and go for a fast win or to make an expansion as soon as possible and keep him afraid of the drop.
You don't have to worry about sciencevessel for the first or second push here.
THe last question is to hard to answer generally. It depends. If you're behind, harass while macring to max is always an option, If you do this, harass with some vultures on the map and a few dropships at the same time and macro like crasy and also get upgrades. Atleast 2-1 is what you need with a maxed army.
TvZ With the A-Yu-Mi build you should have this problem. Marines should start attacking the sunkens before his mutalisks are finnished.
With the EE timing you wil have many barracks and many marines. Defending vs mutalisks before you move out shouldn't be a problem. Make the turrets as I explain in the 9minpush build vod and keep about 7-10 marines and 2 medics in your main at some turrets so your units are split up.
When you must move out, when the upgrade is on the "ng" in upgrading. Move out unless he keeps making mutalisks. If he continues to make mutalisks this means his lurkertiming will be delayed and you can delay your timingpush and need to defend the base alittle more. If he makes only 9 or 11 you can defend until you should move out and then just move out. Your 5rax will be able to produce enough units do defend pretty fast again, or he will fly over your barracks and kill the marines being made. But if he does not retreat with the mutalisks when you attack he will die, so he's not going to stay in your base that long.
When doing the 9minpush you're not moving out before 9minutes usually. This will mean that he will have tried to mutaliskharass you for 3 minutes. Usually he would have died a few mutas by now and will be less of a threat. If he still have all muta left, you could add 1 additional turret at the locations you feel are unsafe at the moment you're moving out.
If his mutaliskharass is really great you can wait in base with the units and move out alittle later. WIth the 9minpush you will usually have quite some time before defilers are out and if you wait for the second vessel or the dropship before you attack its not always that big of a deal.
I think you just have to work on your turretplacement and your defense vs mutalisk harass in general before you move out, but its hard to tell unless ive seen you play.
Anyway good luck!
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On May 08 2009 10:10 StylishVODs wrote:
Bebop Bereserker: I dont reccomend getting mines if you face a zerg with fast gas. Its better to upgrade vulturespeed.
If you do the 8raxmech you will usually go 2fac and therefor getting 6 vults before speed kicks in. Its much easier to sneak into his main if you have speed and you can snipe alot of drones since the mutas will not be able to kill the vultures if you run the around the mutalisks. He might also get a few hydras before mutalisks and it will be almost impossible to sneak through with slow vults.
If you can get 3 or more vultures in his base and you notice his spire is almost finnished, you can go for his larvas with the attack. They will die really fast if they are not eggs morphing already. Usually, if he goes straight for 2hatchmuta, 8rax mech with speedvults is a freewin.
Only get mines if he's doing some sort of hydra attack. Otherwise, go directly from speed into goliathrange or expansion.
I meant I got mines after speed. But now ive played 2 games where my opponent got mutas when mines was 3/4 done. I think 2 hatch is slightly faster.
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Thx.. I'll probably send you A replay of Each Push.. Plz Help rofl..
PS. LOVE YOU StyLish. No Homo. lol
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Bebop Berserker: Ok, thats better, but I still would advice you to go for range directly after speed.
If he does a 3hatch build you can go for cc before range.
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This probably sounds pathetic (and is!) but I find myself getting owned regularly by early probe harass. I did a search and couldn't find any threads on this topic, so I thought I'd post a reply here. Specifically, I struggle with:
a) The Protoss building a pylon in my wall and subsequently drowning me with zealots. I've been told that this means I just shouldn't wall in, but surely that isn't the only answer. b) The scouting probe attacking (and often killing) my builder SCVs, even if I send a SCV to attack the scouting probe.
Thanks!
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Wondering When I have 170-200 during Flash Build.. Should I Put Mines infront of tanks while siege or should I put mines only in flank spots? Been wondering cause I have trouble with Zealots dragging Mines.
What is a Good Push Formation? with tanks: ll = tanks together lllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllll or ll ll ll ll ll ll ll ll ll ll ll ll or lllll lllll lllll lllll or llllll llllll llllll llllll llllll lllllll or llll llll llll llll
And against Someone (most C + and up) goes quick Arbs.. which I'm having trouble with..
Normally they would 2gate->expo->drop DT->expo->Arb While slowing push with DT,goons, and Zealots.
What would be a counter for this build.. ARB comes out around 11 - 12 mins.
In TvZ Tell Me if I'm Right If I use A-yu-mi.. The attack should be Before Muta's come out.. In EE timing. the attack should be before Lurkers..
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hey stylish i got couple of quistions
for tvp on destination ive lost a game because i didnt know how to proper respond: my quistion: what do you do after you spot and kill proxy gates in your main or just outside your natura?my response was to do 2 fac but it totally failed .Do you think its better to maintain your advantage if you can say that and just continue with normal build order because you killed opponents base which cost him minerals and i just lost mining time. Is it pretty even from there?
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What if Im 5 fact push v a protoss who has 2 gate expanded and has a lot (5-6) goons ready when I finish my cc. I hate to sit in base with a finished cc until siege is ready. I have tried to move down before but with say 4 rines, 1 tank, 1 vulture I struggle, especially if they camp the bottom of the ramp just out of range.
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In TvZ Tell Me if I'm Right If I use A-yu-mi.. The attack should be Before Muta's come out..
In the vod Stylish says you should be attacking the sunkens about 10seconds before the first mutas hatch.
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Hey Stylish, I was wondering if the protoss is rushing to cars off 2 base if you have to rush to him before he gets too many of them.
I played a guy on Bluestorm who did this and I and I tried to just get some goliath+turrets off 2 base but his harassment and constant use of them when I tried pushing when he got his third killed me. Is there no other choice?
Also in TvZ with your first vessel do you have to save energy so that when his first patch of defilers pop you can irradiate them immediately? Or is it just preference?
Thanks!
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Vaeshir: Making a walling is sometimes risky. There is a chance that the probe will build a pylon and send 1-3 zealots straight to your base. The best way to handle it is probably to bring scvs to the ramp and have some marines behind. Protoss making a pylon and a couple of zealots will usually cost him more than it costs you to bring 2-3 scvs to block.
If a probe is attacking your buildingscv you need to pull a mining scv right away and attack it. The usual problem is that you just click attack and press on the probe, this is not the most efficient way. What you need to do is spam leftclick on the probe and it will die alot faster and the scv will follow the probe faster aswell. Whenever your building scv starts getting low helth, click on it and press cancel, then use the attacking scv to continue building the structure, move the low health scv to mine minerals again and bring a new scv to attack the probe.
You do the same vs drones that are microed to kill single scvs, you just spam leftclick on it and he won't be able to do the normal back and forth trick that sometimes can be annoying when you have 1 scv vs 1 drone.
I will add this question into the faq, its good to know this.
JaMsLeGs: It varies alot. When using the flashstrategy you have to harass him in the midgame with vultures and drops. While harassing with vultures you lay mines across the map and this way you can get information of where his units are. When you push out in the lategame you will have 3 scans. Use them to determine where his units are and always put mines where his units will run when he attacks you.
Mines need to be placed before the actual encounter. If he attacks and you haven't laid mines yet, you are better of not laying any mines and just have the vults with your tanks.
Positioning of tanks isn't that important when moving out with such a large army. The most important thing is that you get them up in siege mode as fast as possible if he decides to attack. If you have time for it, you can try not to have every tank clutched together, but dont waste too much time on it unless he has alot of arbiters. If he has many arbiters you want to spread out your tanks alot more.
I don't really think I can generalize better then this and tell you what position is best for tanks since it differs so much. But usually when not having too much tanks its good to position them 3 and 3 or 2 and 2 or something like that. Always try to place mines so that he cannot attack your tanks with goons without drawing the mines but far away enough so that zealots won't drag mines into the tanks.
My best advice is that you watch how progamers use their mines, specially fantasy. Also read the [G]Terran FAQ. I think there are alot of answers there to your questions, including play vs arbiters and such.
Yes you are correct about the TvZ. EE timing is made so that the attack will occur when he is morphing his lurkers. A-yu-mi will occur when the mutas are morphing aswell. When the units are ready it will be too late.
ZzZzAnG: Proxy gates is tough to deal with sometimes. How you follow up is mostly based on how much damage you took. I usually stay on 1 fact 1 rax, kill the gateway and then expand for myself, depending on what he does ofcourse. If you want you can send me a replay of a proxygame and I can try to figure out what you did wrong. Its really hard to generalize when faceing a proxy since the damage taken really decides what you can do to follow up.
Continuing with the initial strat after succesfully defending a proxyrush is definately viable.
Muff2n: Are you talking about siege expand or FD expand? If you do the FD expand your mine upgrade will be finnished alot sooner than your CC. This way you can plant mines outside your natural before he attack you with more than 3 goons. If you think he will attack you with a 2gate rush just make another vult after the first one and sometimes even make a bunker. You will have 6 mines 1 tank and a bunker before CC is finnished. If he's doing a really strong preassurebuild I suggest that you switch to the Strong FD instead of normal FD.
The idea with the FD opening is that you move out with 4-5 marines 1 vult and 1 tank as soon as the vult is finnished, place mines outside your natural and make the CC on the expansion location. He will have 3 goons max at this point unless he's doing 10/15 gate in which case you have to do the strong FD if you dont want to wall in.
If you're talking about siege expand, if following the build your siegemode will be upgraded when the CC is finnished and you will have 2 tanks. Siege them on the cliff and he cannot attack you.
SCC-AlwaysGG: I dont really understand the question. I think you should read through the Terran FAQ, i think there are some information on how you play vs fast carriers there(under TvP 5Factpush). Remeber that a protoss who's rushing for carriers wont have enough groundunits to stop an early rush, so the answer isnt always to start producing goliath emidiately when you see his stargates. First he has to make the carriers, then the interceptors and then he has to kill all your ground forces before he's safe. During this time you can do alot of damage with purely tanks and vultures.
I usually always add armory and atleast start upgrading range though when I see multiple stargates, but i dont always switch to goliaths directly.
TvZ question. If your talking about a standard push at 9-10 minutes with m&m tanks and 1 vessel, the answer is no. I suggest that you practice the 9min push. Dont even use the first vessel for irradiating, there is no way he will have defilers up at 9-10 minutes anyway. You're better of using defensematrix with your first vessel.
When I'm doing the 9min push I actaully dont even start upgrading irradiate after my first vessel. I usually make a dropship after my first vessel and then another vessel before upgrading irradiate. Since his defilers won't be up yet, using irradiate with 1 vessel on 1 lurker isnt as good as to use the defensematrix on strategic units.
The whole point of these timed attacks, wether its 9minpush or late-hive counterpush (as i call it, its in my vodsection), is to attack him before his defilers are out and ready to cast swarm. When he has swarm you should already have mutliple vessels out with irradiate.
I'm very tired right now and I think I could have answered all your questions maybe abit simpler, im sorry for that I need to go to bed^^ Feel free to say if you aren't satisfied with the answer and I'll try to elaborate tomorrow when my mind is fresh.
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Simple question with an answer that may not be so simple: How do you control 100 rines lategame?
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On May 17 2009 04:30 dhe95 wrote: Simple question with an answer that may not be so simple: How do you control 100 rines lategame?
Usually I have one main army in the lategame consisting of about 20-30 rines +tanks and vessels while i keep the rest of my marines at other locations for multitasking. I only hotkey my main army and control the others by just clicking.
If you face a really big army and you need to have all your units together for a big battle, i suggest having m&m on 1 2 3 4 but if you want even bigger than that, keep the rest of the marines out of hotkeys and control them manually.
I've never ever had to control an army of 100 marines in my life, so I don't think you have to worry about that problem though.
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@ reply (thanks) I did the siege expand on destination. Two tanks and 1 rine. I sieged up on the cliff but goons can hide out of range of the tanks and yet in range of the cc location. Eventually I can get the expo, probably after my 4th tank (I move some down and float the rax over them). If he is going more goons then I find it hard because he can often come it and snipe the tanks on the groundand back off. Whilst I deal damage its not enough to make up for lost mining at an expo. Other times, Im just about to put up turrets when a DT arrives and sits where I would want to land the cc. I can slowly turret crawl to the DT but this takes much time.
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Muff2n:
Scenario 1
- Protoss 1gate range.
This preassure will not be enough to hold you back from floating the CC down directly upon its finnish. 1tank on cliff and one unsieged tank below to push him away from your expansion. Micro the tank below back and forth and he won't dare to snipe it because the tank on cliff will fire at him. If you're in a position where the tank on the cliff wont protect the tank on the ground, siege up the second tank on the ramp or just below and protect with SCVs if you have to. If you don't know what his tech is after this you must place turrets immediately when you land your CC. Place one on the cliff and one on the ground.
Reason: 1gate will not support enough goons to break you and with 1gate he can either tech fast to DT/Reaver or he can take double expansion very fast and you cannot afford to delay economy.
Scenario 2
- Protoss 2Gate range.
This will force you to make a bunch of SCVs from your CC before you can lift it. Stay behind the wallin with sieged tanks to defend his preassure and wait for 3-4 tanks before you float the CC down. Place turrets when you move down if you don't know his tech and place a turret on the cliff before that, close to the cliff so it will cover some area below aswell.
Reason: 2Gate goon will set the protoss back economically. He will be able to preassure you in the beginning but your eco will still be ahead because you have 2 CCs pumping SCVs and when you float down, the only way he can catch up economically is to take double expansions. Either he does that or he will try to bulldog you or tech to something fast on 2 bases.
Always remember to float both rax and ebay down to make a semiwall at your expansion a few seconds before you move down. This will make it harder for him to break you. Also remember that SCVs are very stron protectors in the beginning vs goons.
edit: Added to FAQ, under TvP FlashStrat.
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With the FlashStrat, you say siege up your big army as soon as you seem them move in.. is there a time where you slow push and leapfrog the tanks forward instead? After the first 'big battle'?
Also, is this the same with 4/5/6 fac pushes? Do you only siege up when you see him about to move in or do you slowly push?
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United States4126 Posts
Haha, that's a hilarious banner :D
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Hundredth: Usually with the flashstrat, you dont leapfrog after the initial big battle. You will most likely get defeated or defeat the protoss army almost entirely and then you need to attack asap before he can macro up again since protoss will most likely be on 4+ bases by that time and his arbiters is always getting energy.
With the 4/5/6 pushes its too situational to generalize. Usually they include alot more leapfrogging than the Flashstrat though.
Kinky: Haha yeah I think so too.
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Thanks so much for the advice; its really helpful. There is one final problem that is giving me grief and that’s early game v proxy toss. The map Im playing a lot atm is destination.
Sometimes when a protoss pylon blocks my wall, it blocks my scvs from my ramp and hence I cannot block my ramp with 3 scvs and build some marines – I get screwed. Its all really difficult and he can sometimes cancel and rebuild, etc. What should I do in this situation?
When zealots do get inside your base, how should I react with my scvs? I don’t really know any micro tricks and have no idea if I should try to run the red hp ones and continue mining or if I should attack.
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Just wanted to say epic lulz on the banner ahahahaha
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ugh im having trouble playing tvp on destination..im not sure wat build to open with and how to expo (which expos better to take) and how to engage protoss army because of the bridges.And also when i got half of the map and so does protoss or maybe 1more i dont know how to kill them off because protoss keeps moving around the whole map.Any sugestions how to play on desetination?flash bo?push up from 6 to 12 to expo @ 2?and opposite from 12?any suggestions?T_T
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United States4126 Posts
Hey Stylish, I'm having some trouble when I'm playing against Zerg. In a game I just played, I scouted that my opponent was doing 2hatch mutas so I tried to do a 2rax sunken break. The Zerg player reacted by placing ~7 sunkens up so I left my army outside his nat to contain him, but he went into my base with his mutas,killed all my turrets (I had 3 next to eachother ) and raped the rest of my army. How should I have reacted properly to this?
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Muff2n: If you wallin properly on destination, protoss cannot break the wall with a pylon.
This is how you wall(My screenshots all end up black can someone help me?):
- @11: Suply and barracks at the same vertical line at the left edge of the buildings.
- @5: Suply and barracks at the same vertical line at the right edge of the buildings.
In both cases the first suply should be placed at the normal position, whereas the barracks is placed one step to the right or left of the obvious spot.
In both cases, the protoss cannot block the location of the second suply with 1 pylon, there will be room for one suply on either the left or the right side of the pylon to complete the wall. If the probe is blocking the path between pylon and suply press on the small mineralpatch outside your base to float through the probe.
If you decide not to wallin, place buildings in simcity-mode making it hard for zealots to walk through. You can find information about that in the TvP general tips VOD.
ZzZzAnG: I will look into this, I haven't watched the latest trend of tvp on destination. I would recommend some sort of 4fact push, FE 3Fact, Dropstrat and 5factpush works sometimes aswell. Flash uses 3exp with one fact into flashstrat here aswell but I think its a pretty hard style to play.
Remember that when you're pushing you want to push to his third and use the cliffs to your advantage, leapfrogging close to the cliffs with your tanks. If you're playing agressive its good to sometimes sneak 1-2 tanks around the map behind his natural and siege up there and scan his natural while you're pushing at the same time on another location.
I will come back to the question of how to break the bridges later I don't have time right now.
Kinky: 2rax sunkenbreak on 1 base is generally not a good build. He countered it by taking the expansion and making enough sunkens to protect himself. This will leave him with a better econ for the lategame and you will have trouble. If you want to do an early break and you notice that he's defending it properly. Scan his base and be sure of what he does. If he makes mutalisks, dont contain him. If he makes lurkers, contain him.
Vs mutalisks; go back to your base tech to vessels or take your expansion and go from there.
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On May 21 2009 21:40 StylishVODs wrote: Kinky: 2rax sunkenbreak on 1 base is not a good build. Well, if you manage to prevent him from scouting it you can get a super easy free win, and it's not nearly as all-in as for instance proxy BBS. Hwasin vs Hyvaa in OSL a couple of days ago is a good example of how neat it can be. It is of course inherently weaker than a FE if you fail with breaking his sunken line, but it's good to mix things up sometimes.
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Yeah, ofcourse it can be good sometimes. I forgot to put a "generally" in my sentance. I would rather mix in an A-yu-mi or something like that if I want to sunkenbreak.
Its not an all-in but will give you a disadvantegous position if he sees it.
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On May 22 2009 01:25 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah, ofcourse it can be good sometimes. I forgot to put a "generally" in my sentance. I would rather mix in an A-yu-mi or something like that if I want to sunkenbreak.
Its not an all-in but will give you a disadvategous position if he sees it. Once you add that ''generally'' we have an agreement.
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I did I do recommend doing 2rax strats vs 9pool speed though. Even if he sunks up his expansion you're pretty even economically if you take your CC abit after you move out.
The good thing with builds such as the a-yu-mi is that even if he sunks up like crazy, which he has to in order to survive, his mutas will be delayed and his economy will be lowered and from there you will basically be even in economy since you have cut 3 rounds of scvs to do the build.
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With the TvT build, how do you react to fac/port or 2 port builds? Obviously as soon as you see it you put down an armory and academy, but do you continue with containing with vultures and focus on vult/tank? Or do you start playing gol/tank?
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Hundredth:
vs 2port builds you would need ebay, focus on economy and then switch to tankgol.
vs 1fac 1port you would need armory acad(if cloak) and mix in a goliath and keep making vultures for mapcontrol. Since your opponent is on 1 base he will fall behind exponentially being one expansion behind.
If he's doing a fac port build he will try to move out with 4-5 marines 2+ tanks to make a push fast and you'll need to research mines before speed here. Make a minefield and try to sneak past him or snipe the marines. If you're able to snipe his marines you can kill his tanks with scvs and if you can sneak to his base you will kill lots of scvs/place mines outside factory.
Once you gain mapcontrol (10+vultures imo) I'd suggest that you contain him while you're still on two bases, switch to tank/gol and take the third base alittle later. Beware for drops if you got the contain up.
This is what I believe to be true but I cannot say with 100% certainty since I'm not that good at the matchup yet.
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On May 21 2009 21:40 StylishVODs wrote:This is how you wall(My screenshots all end up black can someone help me?): If you press printscreen in SC the game saves it as a pcx file in the main SC folder. You need a program like Irfanview to see pcx files and convert them into something else. If you press print screen and copy paste in paint you get a black screen, if you are doing what I described above I have no idea what to do unfortunately. I hope that helped.
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Can you describe the build order that Hwasin used against Hyvaa here?
He got his tech up so fast but kept up early pressure and the zerg just seemed powerless to do anything besides sunken up as Hwasin took an easy expansion. It seems incredibly effective and well thought out.
I'd appreciate it, even if it's just an approximation. Thanks a lot in advance.
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Repost (no response, pg 6)
Stylish:
Hey, do you think you could add the effects and cost effectiveness of each upgrade?
For example in your mech game FPVOD you mention that +attack vs hydras and +armor vs mutas/lings. I'm pretty sure I remember other bits of advice but as a whole it is very fragmented and not at all concise. It would be excellent to have a good summary on each upgrade ours and P/Z and the effect of say + 1 atk vs + armor for Toss, etc.
Also, in each set of upgrades, mention which you should get first, etc. For example Stim over Range unless bunker or whatnot. Thanks, your VODs have been immensely helpful.
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Another Q on your TvT build :p
Can it be used effectively on maps such as Medusa, Tau Cross or Othello? Each of these maps seem to favour dropship play because you can siege their nat/main from a cliff. I played someone who did this to me on Othello (fac/port then dropped 2 tanks there) and it put me at a pretty big disadvantage.
How to do you change this build? Or do you just go fac/port or fac cc into tankgol or a completely different build?
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I'm currently ill again, feaver and stuff.. I was hoping to make VODs this weekend and I hope I feel better tomorrow.. will answer questions when I feel better again sry.
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On May 24 2009 05:26 StylishVODs wrote: I'm currently ill again, feaver and stuff.. I was hoping to make VODs this weekend and I hope I feel better tomorrow.. will answer questions when I feel better again sry. try to recover quickly
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Hm, I have a Q for tvp. When doing a rather standard siege expand and toss gets 4 bases, how should you react to this? I have some trouble harassing him with vultures due to cannons/good goon placement, and I still don't feel like I dont have enough to break him with a push until his 3 bases are kicking in. Should I go 6/7 factory and aim for a quick push, perhaps around 120? And if so, where should i push? Should I dump a couple of tank at one expo and contain him in front of his nat, sending some reinforcements to his other nat?
I just have so much trouble stopping a toss from expanding heavily - maybe my timing is still off...
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Hey stylish. Long time no see. So ur sick again? I had the "magsjukan" this week, u got that too?
I need some help with my TvP again.
Let's say I did a 2 fac opening much like urs on a crossed position on Othello, vs 14 nexus. I fail the attack even though I kill a few probes and mess around with him and kill some of he's force, I manage to be 20 psi behind. I take a quciker third since I know im behind. He keep exping and Im not even close to he's psi even though he dosent use all he's money effectivliy, far from it. I do a push to one of he's expo's but get repelled. I later do some haressing to him manage to kill all he's templars and some probes. But he's still 50 psi ahead of me. I know I have to try stopping he's expoing So I go for it again but I get overrun and totally owned, with almost no loses from he' side and the game is ended.
How Do I fight Protoss on this map when it's crossd pos? I mean he's mobility means he dominates me as a terran, how can I neglect that? I get stressed cuz I know I have to stop him before he get too big, but instead it seems he's getting stronger from it.
second game it was crossd position again but I did ur drop strat this time vs 2 gate range >expo, and things looked more clearar. I killed some probes even had a bunker up there. I had 3 facs pumping but he still got more units and more money(1 k almost) and he only pumped from 2 gates. I attacked with my foce but I got neglected as before even though he's forces some of he's forces was disoriented and easy targets. My expo is of course done slightly after this failed attack. He kills my early third after that, Im back only having one expo. (Ok I get that im behind after losing my CC. But what I dont get is when I kill an expo he's not rly behind. They say P needs one more expo to keep up with terran but they can't mean this early in the game since it seems terran would need +1 base to keep up with p). Anyways im losing that game too of an overrunning protoss.
Im a quiet aggressive terran but when I play against protoss and try to attack often it just seems they're getting stronger from it. I know crossed position isnt the best to be aggressive on, but still. Protoss didn't do any haress on me. I fight so hard and get nothing in return.
Is an aggressive style unthinkable nowadays against protoss or what do you say? Or should I just stay with FE everygame unless he's rly close to me and then I could do some rushes? This game will be very predictable if one are forced to go fe as the only reliable option in crossed position.
I could show u the reps but im not sure u'll watch them.
p.s I Know this sounds alot like whine and it partly is. I just don't get it :O. But that dosen't mean Im giving up
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How do you get maps that you can start with only yourself to practice on your BO?
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On May 31 2009 15:29 nayumi wrote: How do you get maps that you can start with only yourself to practice on your BO? You don't need special maps for that. You just add a computer to a slot in multiplayer and remove it as the countdown timer is starting. When the game starts it will ask if you want to end the mission or continue playing; just continue playing.
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On May 31 2009 16:03 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2009 15:29 nayumi wrote: How do you get maps that you can start with only yourself to practice on your BO? You don't need special maps for that. You just add a computer to a slot in multiplayer and remove it as the countdown timer is starting. When the game starts it will ask if you want to end the mission or continue playing; just continue playing. Thank you <3
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Hey stylish, what do you suggest doing vs 2fact vultures if your doing the 1fact Fe build TvT?
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Stylish has abandon us, oh no T_T
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On June 10 2009 00:28 ZeKk wrote: Stylish has abandon us, oh no T_T
I think he focuses more on his FPVods thread recently. Tho Stylish leaves the BW scene in just a few days
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On May 31 2009 15:29 nayumi wrote: How do you get maps that you can start with only yourself to practice on your BO? I think the traning map types in the map section here let you play alone.
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Calgary25942 Posts
Added to recommended threads. Thank you.
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On June 10 2009 06:57 Caffeine_Free wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2009 15:29 nayumi wrote: How do you get maps that you can start with only yourself to practice on your BO? I think the traning map types in the map section here let you play alone. at the countdown remove the comp from slot and at the start press c and split
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Thanks alot man, this is awesome!
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Thanks man! Good luck with your studies!
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I refer to this thread often and watch all the VODs and wanna say THANKS for your contributions!
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Hi!
Thanks for all these great builds/vods, they are awesome! It's very kind of you!
I'm wondering... how would you counter 10/15 gate with weak FD or fast cc siege expand (flash build)?
Especially without a wall, I find it extremely difficult to stop
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K seriously how small are the timing windows early game. I'm talking about a bit of early goon pressure from 2 fac into expo. I guessed double but I did ebay after CC so my 3 fac was late and I got crushed. im disheartened.
edit: he did in fact go for a quick third but my facs were just a bit too slow. Am I just a shit player or is it the way it is? Doesnt seem very fair especially with goon denying scouting past the nat. Someone give me hope.
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