Hell yeah! With this, the OSL Finals, and the possibility of Jaedong vs Flash final for MSL, I have a feeling my excitement meter might break. These matches are going to be so epic!
This very well could be the Year of Flash! MSL and OSL titles :o
It'd be such a horrible blow if he ends up getting neither XD
On January 16 2010 12:18 G5 wrote: My heart says Jaedong
My mind says Kal
Yes that isn't typed backwards... wow this will be good :D
Really? Wow, yeah, that's totally reversed, haha.. No, seriously though, Kal has a lot better chance than people give him credit for I think. You're right, either way it's going to rock.
While Kal is pretty good at PvZ I don't think he's gonna take this. Losses to Kwanro/Hogil/Luxury don't really help his case, although JD has been playing a lot of P scrubs lately too.
I hope Kal can at least take a game or two off JD. All the BoX series this season have been absolute crap. Really hoping for an epic 5-game series at least close to the level of Bisu-Iris.
On January 16 2010 17:08 538 wrote: Could someone give a basic idea of what they were talking about? (edit: Roffles clearing the chat didnt help either:-p)
I'd copy paste from the stream chat but roffles cleared it
They talked about their conditions, their confidence, what they think the decisive game will be, and why they thumbed down the maps they did. JD and Kal both said they practiced only with their team mates. That's the general gist of it
On January 16 2010 17:10 GhostKorean wrote: They talked about their conditions, their confidence, what they think the decisive game will be, and why they thumbed down the maps they did. JD and Kal both said they practiced only with their team mates. That's the general gist of it
Except Kal came off as expecting to lose, saying he's confident in his PvZ but not against Jaedong, etc.
On January 16 2010 17:21 Slow Motion wrote: roffles needs to talk about tibetan independence in his stream, try to get that shit blocked in china and run more smooth for the rest of us
On January 16 2010 17:21 Slow Motion wrote: roffles needs to talk about tibetan independence in his stream, try to get that shit blocked in china and run more smooth for the rest of us
might actually work, just put free tibet on the label
Hopefully these games will be better/closer than Flash vs Kwanro. I like both players, so it's gonna be great to just sit back and enjoy the good SC without really rooting for anyone (although a Flash vs JD finals certainly sounds quite epic).
3 base vs 2, sair is out AFTER the spire finishes. might not get a single overlord. DOES NOT GET AN OVERLORD AS SCOURGE POP ON TOP OF THE SAIR. Mutas out with no AA
JD snipes a bunch of probes, forced to retreat when sairs and canons pop; catches some zealots in the middle of nowhere; a bunch of hydras built already.
DT's arnt going to do shit with no air support from sairs and overlords flying around the map. one goes down with no damage, second gets 1 whole drone. oh make that 3
Kal misses a storm and lurkers are raping his attempt to establish a third. doesnt have obs yet and is forved to waste storms on hydras, most of which miss.
Dear Kal. If you can't micro probes against lings don't use nex before cannon vs overpool on Match Point. It doesn't cost you as much as taking the risk and getting lingraped.
On January 16 2010 17:36 KwarK wrote: Dear Kal. If you can't micro probes against lings don't use nex before cannon vs overpool on Match Point. It doesn't cost you as much as taking the risk and getting lingraped.
yeah for real
he couldve built a cannon in his main and come out ahead of what he did lololol
On January 16 2010 17:36 Xxio wrote: Did you guys see Jaedong's face after that game? Hollly shit he looked so fucking angry and focused. Jesus christ I've never seen that before.
You should watch Jaedong's games. He's pretty cool a player.
On January 16 2010 17:36 Xxio wrote: Did you guys see Jaedong's face after that game? Hollly shit he looked so fucking angry and focused. Jesus christ I've never seen that before.
oh my god, really? oh god.. oh god...holy shit holy shit, how amazing..... oh god... amazing ! good u noticed that, thanks for this very interesting post !! oh god !!! JD, wow..he looked so angry and focused yea, amazing........ wow..n/c
but kal fucked up really really badly at the beginning..
you dont go forge nexus 1 cannon gateway, then have your first sair die to scourge before they can kill 1 overlord.. youre pretty behind at that point.. not to mention the muta damage was intense (which was largely due to kals delayed tech)
On January 16 2010 17:36 Xxio wrote: Did you guys see Jaedong's face after that game? Hollly shit he looked so fucking angry and focused. Jesus christ I've never seen that before.
oh my god, really? oh god.. oh god...holy shit holy shit, how amazing..... oh god... amazing ! good u noticed that, thanks for this very interesting post !! oh god !!! JD, wow..he looked so angry and focused yea, amazing........ wow..n/c
Seems like Kal didn't feel comfortable expanding without air control - probably afraid of muta sniping his HTs into hydra/ling rape. But he kept getting his corsairs owned, so he never got air control, and took far to long to get out and expand...
On January 16 2010 17:40 dekuschrub wrote: yeah jd played a pretty rape game
but kal fucked up really really badly at the beginning..
you dont go forge nexus 1 cannon gateway, then have your first sair die to scourge before they can kill 1 overlord.. youre pretty behind at that point.. not to mention the muta damage was intense (which was largely due to kals delayed tech)
To be fair, Kal had no idea Muta was coming since JD got early second gas at this third.
On January 16 2010 17:36 GTR wrote: i could not find a single flaw in jaedongs play then.
that is a long time since i've had that thought in my head
What about Flash vs JD?
Jaedong played flawlessly vs Flash lolwut?
No. Flash did.
Why would GTR think "i could not find a single flaw in jaedongs play" in response to Flash owning him??
Omg. You really don't get it, do you?
GTR said "that is a long time since i've had that thought in my head", probably referring to flawless play in general, that's what I thought anyways.
So people started asking themselves why it is that it is such a long time since he had that thought because Flash played some flawless games too recently, e.g. vs. Jaedong.
Srsly i think Kal's falling apart already. He saw a control group of lings and he still pushed out with mass goons. dont understand how he thought that could even come close to working
Kal goes to break the 3rd, simcity helps hold for a long time against the lot heavy army; they take down the blocking nat but take massive damage; reinforcing lings and drones clean it up. Real damage is dealt by Kals 6 or so sairs. They swoop in and get at least 5 ol's. Kal's taking his 3rd, at a distinct advantage
JD with hydra/lurk/ling deflier. Kal has complete air control. huge plague on all the sairs but theres nothing to contest they're air dominance. Kal's fourth going up uncontested. Looking to harass the fourth with dt drop
Kal with a very beefy army but Jd has lots and lots of shit; any clash will be decided by storms. Kal mined out at main, Jd taking top left main (5th). zlot drop at nat, minimal damage. Before mention dt's are totally ineffective. Drop in main with similtanious atack on 4th!. 4th in defended drop is absolutly raped by storm!
On January 16 2010 18:01 dekuschrub wrote: kal is no bisu thats fosho
He's trying to multi-task just not getting the results he needs. JD has 2 lurks in the main and is trying to bust the natural. 3 useless reavers at third base.
Kal's army, slightly fragmented gets surrounf and raped by low tier units. Hydra/ling break the nat. Jd is all over the place and kal can't keep up Kal GG's
Kal lost because his drops failed. 3 Dts and instead of sniping drones he goes for the spore when Overlord is nearby. Then he drop lots into a drone line with enemy units nearby.
Then he also had some poor storms. Instead of storming the middle of a clump of units, he consistently storms some adjacent area.
On January 16 2010 18:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Jesus Christ Jaedong is a monster.
Jaedong > Flash in MSL finals o.o
ZvP =/= ZvT
He can't hold a candle to Flash atm. Jaedong's current ZvT is questionable at best, while Flash's TvZ is invincible.
I don't really see his question ZvT, more untested. It's not on the level of Flash's TvZ, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Maybe it's bad for Jaedong.
The pressure's on for Kal... I wonder why he didn't build use any reavers offensively that game... I suppose it was probably because he was on the defensive the whole game... but still...
On January 16 2010 18:07 FranzF1 wrote: JD wants his own amazing ZvP streak... like flash TvT streak or TvZ.. JD wants revenge and he wants to reclaim the spot of the Best SC player.
I still would say JD is the best sc player. If Flash ends up beating Jaedong in the MSL finals then flash will be considered the best player and will be placed #1 in the Kespa rankings or w/e is what the commentators said.
Kal fucked up that attack so badly. If he had just focused that evo instead of milling his zlots around for 1/2 the attack he might've done something. Lost his entire army for an evo, 3 sunks, and maybe 2 drones.
On January 16 2010 18:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Jesus Christ Jaedong is a monster.
Jaedong > Flash in MSL finals o.o
ZvP =/= ZvT
He can't hold a candle to Flash atm. Jaedong's current ZvT is questionable at best, while Flash's TvZ is invincible.
I don't really see his question ZvT, more untested. It's not on the level of Flash's TvZ, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Maybe it's bad for Jaedong.
True. Untested is probably more accurate. He didn't look sharp against Flash in the OSL and in his PL game against Sea though.
On January 16 2010 18:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Jesus Christ Jaedong is a monster.
Jaedong > Flash in MSL finals o.o
ZvP =/= ZvT
He can't hold a candle to Flash atm. Jaedong's current ZvT is questionable at best, while Flash's TvZ is invincible.
I don't really see his question ZvT, more untested. It's not on the level of Flash's TvZ, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Maybe it's bad for Jaedong.
True. Untested is probably more accurate. He didn't look sharp against Flash in the OSL though.
Yeah, and that was a markably better map pool. Hope Jaedong finds some better strategies against Flash's TvZ.
Wow. Only one player can leave me shaking with excitement. It's Jaedong. Kal put up a tremendous fight there. But JD... He defended that 4 DT drop, zealots in his main, zealots in his nat, dropped in Kal's main, and destroyed Kal's army in the middle at the fucking same time. JESUS CHRIST.
On January 16 2010 18:07 FranzF1 wrote: JD wants his own amazing ZvP streak... like flash TvT streak or TvZ.. JD wants revenge and he wants to reclaim the spot of the Best SC player.
I still would say JD is the best sc player. If Flash ends up beating Jaedong in the MSL finals then flash will be considered the best player and will be placed #1 in the Kespa rankings or w/e is what the commentators said.
how could you say jd is better than flash right now? flash has done better in proleague, is in both league finals, and won the last time they met, plus hes just looked invincible the entire season while jd has had some shaky games here and there.
Hmm Jaedong is currently increasing his vP ELO, which happens to be peaked right now at the highest ever. So he just broke the vP record twice in the last two games.
On January 16 2010 18:10 Qwertify wrote: Flash raped Jaedong in the OSL Ro16 I think it was. I hope it is not going to be a repeat.
To be frank though 1 standard game yes flash outplayed Jaedong then cheesed a second. He won't be able to do the same in the finals of the MSL Bo5 ftw lets see if Flash can handle it against the one and only JD
On January 16 2010 18:08 Ideas wrote: man when did JD's macro get THAT good? jesus christ he always had like 20 more supply than kal or something after the 6 minute mark lol.
On January 16 2010 18:11 Catyoul wrote: Not sure what the best vP streak was but savior had 11 and Flash had 12. Jaedong is sitting at 13 now, maybe 14 after next game !
Its actually at 15 right now is what people said on Roffle's stream and one of the guys translating the korean speak says thats what they said too.
On January 16 2010 18:11 Catyoul wrote: Not sure what the best vP streak was but savior had 11 and Flash had 12. Jaedong is sitting at 13 now, maybe 14 after next game !
On January 16 2010 18:07 Qwertify wrote: Kal lost because his drops failed. 3 Dts and instead of sniping drones he goes for the spore when Overlord is nearby. Then he drop lots into a drone line with enemy units nearby.
Then he also had some poor storms. Instead of storming the middle of a clump of units, he consistently storms some adjacent area.
poor storms?? have we watched the same game? JvP is just imba imo
On January 16 2010 18:07 Qwertify wrote: Kal lost because his drops failed. 3 Dts and instead of sniping drones he goes for the spore when Overlord is nearby. Then he drop lots into a drone line with enemy units nearby.
Then he also had some poor storms. Instead of storming the middle of a clump of units, he consistently storms some adjacent area.
poor storms?? have we watched the same game? JvP is just imba imo
yeah, maybe you need to take off your tinted glasses, but Kal's storms in the first two games were pretty poor. hes had very few good ones, but made major mistakes like completely missing alot and actually missed a burrowed lurker
i REALLY want to see day9 do analysis of game 2, kals build was really, really awesome and despite the fact he didnt win with it, it was amazing see him abuse the counter of his, i guess kinda fake 3 gate goon/reaver build. Getting +1 air instead of goon range and his quick +1 ground to get a zealot/templar/sair army that rapes the lings he knew jaedong would mass in counter to his early goons and the muta/scourge combo he knew jaedong would go for in response to his (what the 3 gate goon usually transitions into) reaver+shuttle, was fkn awesome :D
On January 16 2010 18:11 Shatter wrote: Jaedong really is the most impressive player to watch. Much more than Flash.
Yeah, in terms of watchability - Bisu and Jaedong are much more exciting than Flash. Unless it gets into really late game, than Flash can be exciting as well.
That is probably because Flash just calculates all the odds, find the best path to take at every moment, and then just builds up momentum until he can't be stopped. If you break his momentum, i.e. Flash vs. Calm set 2, then you can beat him.
On January 16 2010 18:11 Shatter wrote: Jaedong really is the most impressive player to watch. Much more than Flash.
Yeah, in terms of watchability - Bisu and Jaedong are much more exciting than Flash. Unless it gets into really late game, than Flash can be exciting as well.
That is probably because Flash just calculates all the odds, find the best path to take at every moment, and then just builds up momentum until he can't be stopped. If you break his momentum, i.e. Flash vs. Calm set 2, then you can beat him.
or because Terrans cant be as flashy as Protoss or Zergs in early game...
On January 16 2010 18:11 Shatter wrote: Jaedong really is the most impressive player to watch. Much more than Flash.
Yeah, in terms of watchability - Bisu and Jaedong are much more exciting than Flash. Unless it gets into really late game, than Flash can be exciting as well.
That is probably because Flash just calculates all the odds, find the best path to take at every moment, and then just builds up momentum until he can't be stopped. If you break his momentum, i.e. Flash vs. Calm set 2, then you can beat him.
or because Terrans cant be as flashy as Protoss or Zergs in early game...
On January 16 2010 18:11 Shatter wrote: That is probably because Flash just calculates all the odds, find the best path to take at every moment, and then just builds up momentum until he can't be stopped. If you break his momentum, i.e. Flash vs. Calm set 2, then you can beat him.
Flash is all but entertaining ... camper style is not funny. In the final i am going to root for Jaedong even if he is Z and even if he beat Kal ...
[QUOTE]On January 16 2010 18:18 IH4t3z3rg wrote: [QUOTE]On January 16 2010 18:15 Qwertify wrote: [QUOTE]On January 16 2010 18:11 Shatter wrote: That is probably because Flash just calculates all the odds, find the best path to take at every moment, and then just builds up momentum until he can't be stopped. If you break his momentum, i.e. Flash vs. Calm set 2, then you can beat him. [/QUOTE]
Flash is all but entertaining ... camper style is not funny. In the final i am going to root for Jaedong even if he is Z and even if he beated Kal ... [/QUOTE] He doesn't really camp any more than other terrans.
On January 16 2010 18:11 Shatter wrote: Jaedong really is the most impressive player to watch. Much more than Flash.
Yeah, in terms of watchability - Bisu and Jaedong are much more exciting than Flash. Unless it gets into really late game, than Flash can be exciting as well.
That is probably because Flash just calculates all the odds, find the best path to take at every moment, and then just builds up momentum until he can't be stopped. If you break his momentum, i.e. Flash vs. Calm set 2, then you can beat him.
or because Terrans cant be as flashy as Protoss or Zergs in early game...
On January 16 2010 18:11 Shatter wrote: That is probably because Flash just calculates all the odds, find the best path to take at every moment, and then just builds up momentum until he can't be stopped. If you break his momentum, i.e. Flash vs. Calm set 2, then you can beat him.
Flash is all but entertaining ... camper style is not funny. In the final i am going to root for Jaedong even if he is Z and even if he beat Kal ...
camper style is not funny Blah blah blah but highly effective
On January 16 2010 18:25 Womwomwom wrote: Kal is so awful at casting storms.
Really dude? It was right in the mineral lines.
Look at storm after that one though. He had a choice between storming 1 hydras and 1 lords, or 4 hydras. He choose the former. Maybe he didn't have too much time to micro, I don't know. But last game they were bad as well.
On January 16 2010 18:11 Shatter wrote: That is probably because Flash just calculates all the odds, find the best path to take at every moment, and then just builds up momentum until he can't be stopped. If you break his momentum, i.e. Flash vs. Calm set 2, then you can beat him.
Flash is all but entertaining ... camper style is not funny. In the final i am going to root for Jaedong even if he is Z and even if he beat Kal ...
camper style is not funny Blah blah blah but highly effective
srsly why are we back to this? No one argues that its not effective, the whole discussion is on whether or not its interesting to watch. lag into Kal getting his army raped, how expected
On January 16 2010 18:27 VorcePA wrote: Hey roffles: have you informed livestream about your viewers? I think they kinda freak out when you have 6k people watching. O_o
Eventually I think they'll just shut him down... which will be a shame
On January 16 2010 18:11 Shatter wrote: That is probably because Flash just calculates all the odds, find the best path to take at every moment, and then just builds up momentum until he can't be stopped. If you break his momentum, i.e. Flash vs. Calm set 2, then you can beat him.
Flash is all but entertaining ... camper style is not funny. In the final i am going to root for Jaedong even if he is Z and even if he beat Kal ...
camper style is not funny Blah blah blah but highly effective
srsly why are we back to this? No one argues that its not effective, the whole discussion is on whether or not its interesting to watch.
Flash cannot really be accused of turtling anymore though. His TvZ is hyperaggressive, he has done 2 Base timing pushes in his last 5 or so TvP's and his TvT is the same as everyone else's (but better).
On January 16 2010 18:27 VorcePA wrote: Hey roffles: have you informed livestream about your viewers? I think they kinda freak out when you have 6k people watching. O_o
Eventually I think they'll just shut him down... which will be a shame
Nah... I don't think that's the case. I run my own stream (which I haven't used in a while because I now have a shitty internet connection), and I was reading up on their FAQ and they like to get a heads up if you're going to have a bunch of people tuning in to your stream.
Yes I figured this would be a 3-0 Jaedong Vs flash will be EPIC. Next week same time I am pumped already :D. Hope to see Jaedong pull out his stuff and get his revenge ^^
totally expected. I dont know why so many people gave Kal a chance. NOBODY can touch jaedong and flash right now. They can only touch each other (lol).
By game 3 JD had already fucked Kal's mind up bad. He expected to be raped by hydra break like he was so many times before, and completely lost his cool and built 1000000 cannons in his nat.
On January 16 2010 18:35 FireGuyX wrote: I laugh at the people that say Kal has better PvZ then Movie.
maybe he has ... a series of games vs Jaedong is not the moment to judge Kal PvZ ability, which infact are very good. This mu is simply imba and Jaedong knows how to exploit this .... (13 win in a row ...).
When they showed Flash's face while Jaedong was being interviewed I got shivers. I expect much more from Jaedong this time around. I think we will see some really unorthodox play.
Hmmmm..... 2-0 Bisu, 2-1 Stork, 2-0 Movie, 3-0 Kal..... I'd say JD's ZvP, is just as good as flash's TvZ . Of course, whether JD's ZvT is as good as flash's....is a whole nother animal.
On January 16 2010 18:39 dekuschrub wrote: man these games make you appreciate a free's late game PvZ
how the fuck did kal blow that last game dear god
i still wouldnt say these games sucked.. game 1 was really dumb, but 2 and 3 were pretty exciting!
also JD vs flash finals= WINNNNN
When was kal ever in a position to blow the last game?
When he defended JD's early attacks but then decided to add another billion cannons to make sure he doesnt come ahead out of it
Good point, he should've built around 10, not 15? Put him pretty behind.
And none of them were in a Bo3 or Bo5, and one of the wins was a useless OSL win. At Movie's current form, he's definitley able to take down Jaedong in a Bo5.
I have yet to see Kal take down an S-Class ZvP zerg in a Bo3 or Bo5.
Either.. if Flash wins 3-0 or 3-1 it'd be pretty great, or if Jaedong wins 3-0 or 3-1 it'd also be epic. But, if it goes 3-2 to either side it would be even more awesome. I, for one, cannot wait.
Jaedong is super scary! I thought Kal mightve done realy well but he looked helpless. But unfortunately Jaedong doesn't have an easy draw this time around so we will have to be content with another silver for him. Not saying finals are already decided but I CANNOT see Flash losing in his current form especially on these Terran maps.
Comparing split Bo3s to Bo5's is just stupid. JD's Bo5 play compared to his other play is on a completely different level. I guess Flash is the favorite, but I still believe that JD is going to win.
Well if Flash wins both Starleagues, and continues to dominate in Proleague and Starleague for another year, I guess we will have yet another Terran Bonjwa. Who else is not as enthused as I am about this?
On January 16 2010 18:52 Qwertify wrote: Well if Flash wins both Starleagues, and continues to dominate in Proleague and Starleague for another year, I guess we will have yet another Terran Bonjwa. Who else is not as enthused as I am about this?
If he does that well, I wouldn't mind because just the sheer nature of Starcraft makes it so easy to slip up or a game or two and get knocked out early. Especially in group stages. Of course, it he leaves a couple of SLs for Jaedong.
On January 16 2010 18:49 Ser Aspi wrote: Jaedong is super scary! I thought Kal mightve done realy well but he looked helpless. But unfortunately Jaedong doesn't have an easy draw this time around so we will have to be content with another silver for him. Not saying finals are already decided but I CANNOT see Flash losing in his current form especially on these Terran maps.
Yeah Flash's micro, macro, and game sense is too good. Zero, Calm, and Kwanro all put up a good fight and failed, Jaedong already failed and will fail again.
Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
On January 16 2010 18:52 Qwertify wrote: Well if Flash wins both Starleagues, and continues to dominate in Proleague and Starleague for another year, I guess we will have yet another Terran Bonjwa. Who else is not as enthused as I am about this?
Honestly, I would rather have BISU as a bonjwa.... But unfortuantely, your fears and mine for that matter might be realized sooner than you think.
As elated as I was that JD completely dominated Kal, this sets up the perfect scenario for flash to be crowned a Bonjwa. Think about it. He's broken records. All kinds of records. 2407 ELO, 23 TVT win streak.... AND he wins the OSL, AND he wins the MSL AT THE SAME TIME, against arguably the best player ever?
I shudder just thinking about it. Terrans are humans. They're greedy by nature. It doesn't matter that there have been 3 terran bonjwas in the past, they're still clamoring for more more more.
Even if Flash wins the MSL and OSL, he would have to win at least the OSL or MSL again and do good in the other one to be bonjwa. It's just too hard now with all the good players.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent PvZ victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
seriously stop talking, you are the epitome of this stupid team liquid "everyone besides Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Stork is bad" phenomenon.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent PvZ victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
seriously stop talking, you are the epitome of this stupid team liquid "everyone besides Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Stork is bad" phenomenon.
I like Kal, I'm a fan of him, and believe it or not I'm not a fan of Jaedong. I was disappointed in Kal's play, and that's the truth he has yet to beat an s-class pvz player. And calm down you crazy piece of shit.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent PvZ victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
seriously stop talking, you are the epitome of this stupid team liquid "everyone besides Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Stork is bad" phenomenon.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
I'm saying the games deserve recommendation imo, where'd you get Kal's PvZ history lessons from?
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent PvZ victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
seriously stop talking, you are the epitome of this stupid team liquid "everyone besides Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Stork is bad" phenomenon.
This.
JDs vP is godlike. At this level the SC imba really showas though: p beats t beats z beats p...
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent PvZ victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
seriously stop talking, you are the epitome of this stupid team liquid "everyone besides Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Stork is bad" phenomenon.
lol why stork, he is the prince of silver. lol
he went from the "lol he always gets second place except that one time" guy to massively loved after that picture thread was posted.
On January 16 2010 18:59 Qwertify wrote: Just for clarification - there are not Protoss Bjws right? I think right now it is only: BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, ans sAviOr.
??
Yups, and if we were lenient we could add JD for his double OSL + insane ELO peak run and if Flash wins both leagues, him too. But I'm not sure if people are willing to accept these two, since their domination hasn't lasted that long.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
I'm saying the games deserve recommendation imo, where'd you get Kal's PvZ history lessons from?
Some people were actually surprised that Jaedong smoked Kal, I wasn't. Why did he put 20 cannons in his natural? Why did he sent out an army to attack one of Jaedong's expansion? Either Jaedong is too good or Kal never great pvz in the first place is my point.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent PvZ victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
seriously stop talking, you are the epitome of this stupid team liquid "everyone besides Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Stork is bad" phenomenon.
This.
JDs vP is godlike. At this level the SC imba really showas though: p beats t beats z beats p...
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent PvZ victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
seriously stop talking, you are the epitome of this stupid team liquid "everyone besides Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Stork is bad" phenomenon.
This.
JDs vP is godlike. At this level the SC imba really showas though: p beats t beats z beats p...
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
I'm saying the games deserve recommendation imo, where'd you get Kal's PvZ history lessons from?
Some people were actually surprised that Jaedong smoked Kal, I wasn't. Why did he put 20 cannons in his natural? Why did he sent out an army to attack one of Jaedong's expansion? Either Jaedong is too good or Kal never great pvz in the first place is my point.
I wasn't surprised either. But I think that the games were worth a recommendation.
On January 16 2010 18:59 Qwertify wrote: Just for clarification - there are not Protoss Bjws right? I think right now it is only: BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, ans sAviOr.
??
Yups, and if we were lenient we could add JD for his double OSL + insane ELO peak run and if Flash wins both leagues, him too. But I'm not sure if people are willing to accept these two, since their domination hasn't lasted that long.
TY
I suppose the the durationof one's domination is the real hurdle to be a Bonjwa. But any proathlete/e-athlete will tell you that consistency is that hardest thing, and will always urge that it should be the most respected.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
I'm saying the games deserve recommendation imo, where'd you get Kal's PvZ history lessons from?
Some people were actually surprised that Jaedong smoked Kal, I wasn't. Why did he put 20 cannons in his natural? Why did he sent out an army to attack one of Jaedong's expansion? Either Jaedong is too good or Kal never great pvz in the first place is my point.
I wasn't surprised either. But I think that the games were worth a recommendation.
What do you not understand?
It was a straight up beating, none of them I would recommend, I expected more from Kal.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent PvZ victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
seriously stop talking, you are the epitome of this stupid team liquid "everyone besides Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Stork is bad" phenomenon.
This.
JDs vP is godlike. At this level the SC imba really showas though: p beats t beats z beats p...
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent PvZ victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
seriously stop talking, you are the epitome of this stupid team liquid "everyone besides Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Stork is bad" phenomenon.
This.
JDs vP is godlike. At this level the SC imba really showas though: p beats t beats z beats p...
so ur saying Movie will 100% pwn FlaSh?
Movie != godlike
Movie's micro against zergs is as good as Flash. But Movie's PvT and PvP isn't up to par with his PvZ yet.
On January 16 2010 18:59 Qwertify wrote: Just for clarification - there are not Protoss Bjws right? I think right now it is only: BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, ans sAviOr.
??
Yups, and if we were lenient we could add JD for his double OSL + insane ELO peak run and if Flash wins both leagues, him too. But I'm not sure if people are willing to accept these two, since their domination hasn't lasted that long.
TY
I suppose the the durationof one's domination is the real hurdle to be a Bonjwa. But any proathlete/e-athlete will tell you that consistency is that hardest thing, and will always urge that it should be the most respected.
If Jaedong beats Flash in the finals that would make 3 straight seasons of victories. What else does he need?
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
Just lol at this... Your post had absolutely nothing to do with what Shikyo wrote
I think game 2 could be recommended... game 3 only to see that shitton of cannons, but to me it pretty soon felt like this was already over. And I dont like watching games where one of the players just keeps on trying to crawl back but it's obvious he wont be able to.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
Just lol at this... Your post had absolutely nothing to do with what Shikyo wrote
I don't care, I just wanted to point that out, and it does have some relevance to why none of the games should be recommended.
On January 16 2010 18:59 Qwertify wrote: Just for clarification - there are not Protoss Bjws right? I think right now it is only: BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, ans sAviOr.
??
Yups, and if we were lenient we could add JD for his double OSL + insane ELO peak run and if Flash wins both leagues, him too. But I'm not sure if people are willing to accept these two, since their domination hasn't lasted that long.
TY
I suppose the the durationof one's domination is the real hurdle to be a Bonjwa. But any proathlete/e-athlete will tell you that consistency is that hardest thing, and will always urge that it should be the most respected.
If Jaedong beats Flash in the finals that would make 3 straight seasons of victories. What else does he need?
To have the highest ELO during that same period. The gap between Jaedong and Flash right now is vast. That is because Flash has been dominating Proleague and Starleague with trendsetting play, while Jaedong has only managed, in comparison, to get into the finals of the MSL (Flash at this point is in 2) I just don't see anyone being named Bonjwa at the time someone is playing better than they are.
On January 16 2010 19:09 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: also s-class T > Z and s-class Z > P but s-class P is not always > T
S-class T hasn't been > Z pretty much since July took down OOV. Savior, GGplay and JD all managed to beat the very best terrans of their time on a constant basis. Flash right now has the best tvz by far, but 2-0ing JD is not enough of a proof that T>Z on this level. If he 3-0s JD in the finals things may look differently, but as of now I feel only zvp is a little favored towards z on the highest level. All other matchups are fine.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
Just lol at this... Your post had absolutely nothing to do with what Shikyo wrote
I don't care, I just wanted to point that out, and it does have some relevance to why Kal got such a beating.
But it didnt have any revelance to which of the games should be recommended which is all that shikyo's post is about ?
On January 16 2010 19:09 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: also s-class T > Z and s-class Z > P but s-class P is not always > T
its because terran are imba
wtf? Where were you when Flash had a terrible record against the dragons and was 0-3 against Best and only fantasy could tvp besides him? and even then he was dropping games to stork and bisu? omfg rage
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent PvZ victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
seriously stop talking, you are the epitome of this stupid team liquid "everyone besides Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Stork is bad" phenomenon.
lol why stork, he is the prince of silver. lol
he went from the "lol he always gets second place except that one time" guy to massively loved after that picture thread was posted.
And he got 2nd place at WCG as well recently.
I love stork too, but that doesn't mean I think he is one of the top player consistently, or plays one a level above other players. But whatever, point taken.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
Just lol at this... Your post had absolutely nothing to do with what Shikyo wrote
I don't care, I just wanted to point that out, and it does have some relevance to why Kal got such a beating.
But it didnt have any revelance to which of the games should be recommended which is all that shikyo's post is about ?
It's relevant because I explained why Kal played so poorly against Jaedong and why none of the games should be recommended. But I should of directly answered his question.
On January 16 2010 18:59 Qwertify wrote: Just for clarification - there are not Protoss Bjws right? I think right now it is only: BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, ans sAviOr.
??
Yups, and if we were lenient we could add JD for his double OSL + insane ELO peak run and if Flash wins both leagues, him too. But I'm not sure if people are willing to accept these two, since their domination hasn't lasted that long.
TY
I suppose the the durationof one's domination is the real hurdle to be a Bonjwa. But any proathlete/e-athlete will tell you that consistency is that hardest thing, and will always urge that it should be the most respected.
If Jaedong beats Flash in the finals that would make 3 straight seasons of victories. What else does he need?
To have the highest ELO during that same period. The gap between Jaedong and Flash right now is vast.
This is really fucking ridiculous if you think about, considering JD is at 2300+
On January 16 2010 18:59 Qwertify wrote: Just for clarification - there are not Protoss Bjws right? I think right now it is only: BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, ans sAviOr.
??
Yups, and if we were lenient we could add JD for his double OSL + insane ELO peak run and if Flash wins both leagues, him too. But I'm not sure if people are willing to accept these two, since their domination hasn't lasted that long.
TY
I suppose the the durationof one's domination is the real hurdle to be a Bonjwa. But any proathlete/e-athlete will tell you that consistency is that hardest thing, and will always urge that it should be the most respected.
If Jaedong beats Flash in the finals that would make 3 straight seasons of victories. What else does he need?
To have the highest ELO during that same period. The gap between Jaedong and Flash right now is vast.
This is really fucking ridiculous if you think about, considering JD is at 2300+
Flash = 2397 Jadng = 2307
That is a 90 point difference. That is ridiculous.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
Just lol at this... Your post had absolutely nothing to do with what Shikyo wrote
I don't care, I just wanted to point that out, and it does have some relevance to why Kal got such a beating.
But it didnt have any revelance to which of the games should be recommended which is all that shikyo's post is about ?
It's relevant because I implied why Kal played so poorly against Jaedong and why none of the games should be recommended. But I should of directly answered his question.
Look, I don't know about you, but I watch the games and see how good they are. I don't just look at a game, think it was entertaining, and then look up the history of the player's MU stats and decide that it shouldn't be recommended just because the losing player hasn't lately beat every good ZvP player.
What kind of logic is that? If Flash played an amazingly entertaining game against a worse Zerg and the game would be great to watch, would you take it off recommendations just because the Z hadn't recently beaten many good TvZers? They aren't called the recommended MU histories, they're called the recommended games.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
Just lol at this... Your post had absolutely nothing to do with what Shikyo wrote
I don't care, I just wanted to point that out, and it does have some relevance to why Kal got such a beating.
But it didnt have any revelance to which of the games should be recommended which is all that shikyo's post is about ?
It's relevant because I implied why Kal played so poorly against Jaedong and why none of the games should be recommended. But I should of directly answered his question.
Look, I don't know about you, but I watch the games and see how good they are. I don't just look at a game, think it was entertaining, and then look up the history of the player's MU stats and decide that it shouldn't be recommended just because the losing player hasn't lately beat every good ZvP player.
What kind of logic is that? If Flash played an amazingly entertaining game against a worse Zerg and the game would be great to watch, would you take it off recommendations just because the Z hadn't recently beaten many good TvZers? They aren't called the recommended MU histories, they're called the recommended games.
And yes I like watching a good starcraft game too no matter who's playing. But in this case, none of the games should be recommended, the games were not competitive despite the caliber of both players. I expected more from Kal. I'm just saying Kal has yet to beat a good zvp zerg.
On January 16 2010 19:32 vRoOk wrote: on the side note my parents are having sex in the room above me??
If I were you I'd run in screaming and yelling LJD! LJD! LJD! like a madman chanting about an Epic MSL Finals! That way your father would cum a second time
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
Just lol at this... Your post had absolutely nothing to do with what Shikyo wrote
I don't care, I just wanted to point that out, and it does have some relevance to why Kal got such a beating.
But it didnt have any revelance to which of the games should be recommended which is all that shikyo's post is about ?
It's relevant because I implied why Kal played so poorly against Jaedong and why none of the games should be recommended. But I should of directly answered his question.
Look, I don't know about you, but I watch the games and see how good they are. I don't just look at a game, think it was entertaining, and then look up the history of the player's MU stats and decide that it shouldn't be recommended just because the losing player hasn't lately beat every good ZvP player.
What kind of logic is that? If Flash played an amazingly entertaining game against a worse Zerg and the game would be great to watch, would you take it off recommendations just because the Z hadn't recently beaten many good TvZers? They aren't called the recommended MU histories, they're called the recommended games.
Good point you win, whatever. To answer your question directly, none of the games should be recommended and it's disappointing coming from a player like Kal, it was too one-sided.
Flash vs. Kwanro was a lot more even. They traded cheesy wins, and games 1&4 looked pretty even (1 favoring Flash, 4 favoring Kwanro) until Kwanro pressed 'G' like an idiot and instantly lost both games.
On January 16 2010 19:32 vRoOk wrote: on the side note my parents are having sex in the room above me??
On January 16 2010 18:59 Qwertify wrote: Just for clarification - there are not Protoss Bjws right? I think right now it is only: BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, ans sAviOr.
??
Yups, and if we were lenient we could add JD for his double OSL + insane ELO peak run and if Flash wins both leagues, him too. But I'm not sure if people are willing to accept these two, since their domination hasn't lasted that long.
TY
I suppose the the durationof one's domination is the real hurdle to be a Bonjwa. But any proathlete/e-athlete will tell you that consistency is that hardest thing, and will always urge that it should be the most respected.
If Jaedong beats Flash in the finals that would make 3 straight seasons of victories. What else does he need?
To have the highest ELO during that same period. The gap between Jaedong and Flash right now is vast.
This is really fucking ridiculous if you think about, considering JD is at 2300+
Flash = 2397 Jaedong = 2307
That is a 90 point difference. That is ridiculous.
The bulk of their ELO difference is the difference between ZvZ and TvT. ZvZ is far more volatile, particularly now that it's not just JD who knows how to play it, which means JD loses some games to very low ELO Zergs and loses a crapton of points.
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
Just lol at this... Your post had absolutely nothing to do with what Shikyo wrote
I don't care, I just wanted to point that out, and it does have some relevance to why Kal got such a beating.
But it didnt have any revelance to which of the games should be recommended which is all that shikyo's post is about ?
It's relevant because I implied why Kal played so poorly against Jaedong and why none of the games should be recommended. But I should of directly answered his question.
Look, I don't know about you, but I watch the games and see how good they are. I don't just look at a game, think it was entertaining, and then look up the history of the player's MU stats and decide that it shouldn't be recommended just because the losing player hasn't lately beat every good ZvP player.
What kind of logic is that? If Flash played an amazingly entertaining game against a worse Zerg and the game would be great to watch, would you take it off recommendations just because the Z hadn't recently beaten many good TvZers? They aren't called the recommended MU histories, they're called the recommended games.
Good point you win, whatever. To answer your question directly, none of the games should be recommended and it's disappointing coming from a player like Kal, it was too one-sided.
Flash vs. Kwanro was a lot more even. They traded cheesy wins, and games 1&4 looked pretty even (1 favoring Flash, 4 favoring Kwanro) until Kwanro pressed 'G' like an idiot and instantly lost both games.
dunno what games you watched, but flash vs kwanro was really one sided. kwanro played terrible by going guards twice and flash ran him over because of it. flash went cheese twice, failed miserably once and easily won the second time. i was more entertained watching jd vs kal game 2 & 3 despite jd running over kal really easily
On January 16 2010 18:35 FireGuyX wrote: I laugh at the people that say Kal has better PvZ then Movie.
You seen Jaedong's last two games against Movie? + Show Spoiler +
Repost
On January 16 2010 18:43 7mk wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 dekuschrub wrote: man these games make you appreciate a free's late game PvZ
how the fuck did kal blow that last game dear god
i still wouldnt say these games sucked.. game 1 was really dumb, but 2 and 3 were pretty exciting!
also JD vs flash finals= WINNNNN
When was kal ever in a position to blow the last game?
When he defended JD's early attacks but then decided to add another billion cannons to make sure he doesnt come ahead out of it
Good point, he should've built around 10, not 15? Put him pretty behind.
And none of them were in a Bo3 or Bo5, and one of the wins was a useless OSL win. At Movie's current form, he's definitley able to take down Jaedong in a Bo5.
In a Bo5, Jaedong would give Movie a wedgie and then tie it into a bow.
On January 16 2010 18:35 FireGuyX wrote: I laugh at the people that say Kal has better PvZ then Movie.
You seen Jaedong's last two games against Movie? + Show Spoiler +
Repost
On January 16 2010 18:43 7mk wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 dekuschrub wrote: man these games make you appreciate a free's late game PvZ
how the fuck did kal blow that last game dear god
i still wouldnt say these games sucked.. game 1 was really dumb, but 2 and 3 were pretty exciting!
also JD vs flash finals= WINNNNN
When was kal ever in a position to blow the last game?
When he defended JD's early attacks but then decided to add another billion cannons to make sure he doesnt come ahead out of it
Good point, he should've built around 10, not 15? Put him pretty behind.
And none of them were in a Bo3 or Bo5, and one of the wins was a useless OSL win. At Movie's current form, he's definitley able to take down Jaedong in a Bo5.
In a Bo5, Jaedong would give Movie a wedgie and then tie it into a bow.
Movie compared to last season has improved a lot. Especially in his PvT and PvP and last season Movie only had like 40 official games. He's still inconsistent barley above a 50% win rate, but next season I expect Movie to be a complete player. Movie's PvZ is much better then Kal's, Movie probably would of pushed Jaedong to a Go5.
That is a 90 point difference. That is ridiculous.
On January 16 2010 19:54 Severedevil wrote:
The bulk of their ELO difference is the difference between ZvZ and TvT. ZvZ is far more volatile, particularly now that it's not just JD who knows how to play it, which means JD loses some games to very low ELO Zergs and loses a crapton of points.
That is just speculation. What does that even mean, "now that it's not just JD who knows how to play it." Did other Zerg players suddenly learn how to play ZvZ altogether somehow? Is there some magic trick that you can learn that makes ZvZ more like a coin toss, so much so that poorer players can learn it and then have a chance at beating Jaedong? And why has this only recently happened? Were people not able to observe Jaedong's ZvZ a year ago?
The opposite actually can be said. Jaedong's ELO is so high mainly because of his 80% win rate ZvZ, from before. If he had been playing ZvZ like that all along, the point gap would be more significant.
On January 16 2010 19:32 vRoOk wrote: on the side note my parents are having sex in the room above me??
If I were you I'd run in screaming and yelling LJD! LJD! LJD! like a madman chanting about an Epic MSL Finals! That way your father would cum a second time
I feel bad about the result. I had wanted to write for the front page at some point, but I feel that I have let you good folks down by hyping this series.
I had a pleasantly drunken evening for the first half hour of the games, and then I started feeling shitty. I can't feel bad for the winner, so mostly fuck you.
On January 16 2010 20:46 thopol wrote: I feel bad about the result. I had wanted to write for the front page at some point, but I feel that I have let you good folks down by hyping this series.
I had a pleasantly drunken evening for the first half hour of the games, and then I started feeling shitty. I can't feel bad for the winner, so mostly fuck you.
Dude don't worry about it, things are beyond your control, and you made this series more interesting for everyone before it started by writing what you did.
The bulk of their ELO difference is the difference between ZvZ and TvT. ZvZ is far more volatile, particularly now that it's not just JD who knows how to play it, which means JD loses some games to very low ELO Zergs and loses a crapton of points.
That is just speculation. What does that even mean, "now that it's not just JD who knows how to play it." Did other Zerg players suddenly learn how to play ZvZ altogether somehow? Is there some magic trick that you can learn that makes ZvZ more like a coin toss, so much so that poorer players can learn it and then have a chance at beating Jaedong? And why has this only recently happened? Were people not able to observe Jaedong's ZvZ a year ago?
The opposite actually can be said. Jaedong's ELO is so high mainly because of his 80% win rate ZvZ, from before. If he had been playing ZvZ like that all along, the point gap would be more significant.
TLPD hasnt been updated yet, I am sure JD's ELO will increase to about 2330.
On January 16 2010 19:32 vRoOk wrote: on the side note my parents are having sex in the room above me??
If I were you I'd run in screaming and yelling LJD! LJD! LJD! like a madman chanting about an Epic MSL Finals! That way your father would cum a second time
And risk having to share bandwidth with yet another sibling? I think not.
Sweet, as painful as it was for me to watch Kal fall.. Jaedong will have his sweet sweet revenge on Flash. Sorry Flash, but Jaedong is better than you!! No MSL titles for Flash~
And new ZvP streak record =)... So that's ZvZ and ZvP records held by THE DONG
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
Just lol at this... Your post had absolutely nothing to do with what Shikyo wrote
I don't care, I just wanted to point that out, and it does have some relevance to why none of the games should be recommended.
On January 16 2010 18:35 FireGuyX wrote: I laugh at the people that say Kal has better PvZ then Movie.
You seen Jaedong's last two games against Movie? + Show Spoiler +
Repost
On January 16 2010 18:43 7mk wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 dekuschrub wrote: man these games make you appreciate a free's late game PvZ
how the fuck did kal blow that last game dear god
i still wouldnt say these games sucked.. game 1 was really dumb, but 2 and 3 were pretty exciting!
also JD vs flash finals= WINNNNN
When was kal ever in a position to blow the last game?
When he defended JD's early attacks but then decided to add another billion cannons to make sure he doesnt come ahead out of it
Good point, he should've built around 10, not 15? Put him pretty behind.
And none of them were in a Bo3 or Bo5, and one of the wins was a useless OSL win. At Movie's current form, he's definitley able to take down Jaedong in a Bo5.
In a Bo5, Jaedong would give Movie a wedgie and then tie it into a bow.
Movie compared to last season has improved a lot. Especially in his PvT and PvP and last season Movie only had like 40 official games. He's still inconsistent barley above a 50% win rate, but next season I expect Movie to be a complete player. Movie's PvZ is much better then Kal's, Movie probably would of pushed Jaedong to a Go5.
Just stop posting please. Im sorry but if Movie played instead of Kal, there would not have been any difference, maybe he would have taken one game.
On January 16 2010 22:52 SuperJongMan wrote: Sweet, as painful as it was for me to watch Kal fall.. Jaedong will have his sweet sweet revenge on Flash. Sorry Flash, but Jaedong is better than you!! No MSL titles for Flash~
And new ZvP streak record =)... So that's ZvZ and ZvP records held by THE DONG
He also has the highest ZvT streak (12-0) tied with Yellow. So basically, he has the highest streaks for each zerg mu :D
On January 16 2010 22:52 SuperJongMan wrote: Sweet, as painful as it was for me to watch Kal fall.. Jaedong will have his sweet sweet revenge on Flash. Sorry Flash, but Jaedong is better than you!! No MSL titles for Flash~
And new ZvP streak record =)... So that's ZvZ and ZvP records held by THE DONG
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
Just lol at this... Your post had absolutely nothing to do with what Shikyo wrote
I don't care, I just wanted to point that out, and it does have some relevance to why none of the games should be recommended.
No, it really does not have any relevance.
+1 to recommending game 2 and 3, cut the bias OP, Kal not living up to the expectations doesnt make the games any less epic
YES! I always love Jaedong vs Flash!!!!! No, I prefer Flash vs Stork, they are both my fav players. My Heroes, heex But Jaedong vs Flash comes 2nd!! :-) I do hope Flash wins 2 title! And then undisputed champion, bonjwa Wooowooo
On January 16 2010 18:55 Shikyo wrote: Recommended games none? I think that game 1 was pretty epic rape, but still both games 2 and 3 could be recommended. I've seen a lot worse games being recommended before.
If you look at Kal's recent pvz victories, the best zerg he beat that had very good pvz was Type-B.
Just lol at this... Your post had absolutely nothing to do with what Shikyo wrote
I don't care, I just wanted to point that out, and it does have some relevance to why none of the games should be recommended.
No, it really does not have any relevance.
+1 to recommending game 2 and 3, cut the bias OP, Kal not living up to the expectations doesnt make the games any less epic
At the very least, game 3 is a good learning tool on cannoning up and game 2 was pretty exciting.
On January 16 2010 18:35 FireGuyX wrote: I laugh at the people that say Kal has better PvZ then Movie.
You seen Jaedong's last two games against Movie? + Show Spoiler +
Repost
On January 16 2010 18:43 7mk wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 dekuschrub wrote: man these games make you appreciate a free's late game PvZ
how the fuck did kal blow that last game dear god
i still wouldnt say these games sucked.. game 1 was really dumb, but 2 and 3 were pretty exciting!
also JD vs flash finals= WINNNNN
When was kal ever in a position to blow the last game?
When he defended JD's early attacks but then decided to add another billion cannons to make sure he doesnt come ahead out of it
Good point, he should've built around 10, not 15? Put him pretty behind.
And none of them were in a Bo3 or Bo5, and one of the wins was a useless OSL win. At Movie's current form, he's definitley able to take down Jaedong in a Bo5.
In a Bo5, Jaedong would give Movie a wedgie and then tie it into a bow.
Movie compared to last season has improved a lot. Especially in his PvT and PvP and last season Movie only had like 40 official games. He's still inconsistent barley above a 50% win rate, but next season I expect Movie to be a complete player. Movie's PvZ is much better then Kal's, Movie probably would of pushed Jaedong to a Go5.
Just stop posting please. Im sorry but if Movie played instead of Kal, there would not have been any difference, maybe he would have taken one game.
Movie has beaten By.hero and Zero in a bo3, then beat Shine a bo5. Movie has proven that he's one of the best pvz players, he certainly would give Jaedong a run for his money. Has Kal beaten an s-clss zvp recently? No. Movie's micro, mechanics, game sense, and macro against zergs is far superior to Kal's.
On January 16 2010 18:35 FireGuyX wrote: I laugh at the people that say Kal has better PvZ then Movie.
You seen Jaedong's last two games against Movie? + Show Spoiler +
Repost
On January 16 2010 18:43 7mk wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 dekuschrub wrote: man these games make you appreciate a free's late game PvZ
how the fuck did kal blow that last game dear god
i still wouldnt say these games sucked.. game 1 was really dumb, but 2 and 3 were pretty exciting!
also JD vs flash finals= WINNNNN
When was kal ever in a position to blow the last game?
When he defended JD's early attacks but then decided to add another billion cannons to make sure he doesnt come ahead out of it
Good point, he should've built around 10, not 15? Put him pretty behind.
And none of them were in a Bo3 or Bo5, and one of the wins was a useless OSL win. At Movie's current form, he's definitley able to take down Jaedong in a Bo5.
In a Bo5, Jaedong would give Movie a wedgie and then tie it into a bow.
Movie compared to last season has improved a lot. Especially in his PvT and PvP and last season Movie only had like 40 official games. He's still inconsistent barley above a 50% win rate, but next season I expect Movie to be a complete player. Movie's PvZ is much better then Kal's, Movie probably would of pushed Jaedong to a Go5.
Just stop posting please. Im sorry but if Movie played instead of Kal, there would not have been any difference, maybe he would have taken one game.
Movie has beaten By.hero and Zero in a bo3, then beat Shine a bo5. Movie has proven that he's one of the best pvz protoss, he certainly would give Jaedong a run for his money. Has Kal beaten an s-clss zvp recently? No. Movie's micro, game sense, and macro against zergs is far superior to Kal's.
Jaedong is not Shine. He's sooo much better. He would rolled over Movie as he did with Kal. Movie is a good P but not as amazing as you claim.
Before we pile into "Flash v Jaedong" omg hype, let's take a moment to think about how badly Kal just played.
I was literally shocked at how poorly a very good player like Kal played.
Yes, Jaedong played well, and, yes, he makes good players look bad.
But you can't watch those games and watch Jaedong v Bisu or Jaedong v Stork and think that Kal played at the level of those two.
Kal made micro errors all over the place: 1) Flying corsairs over hydras 2) Setting his rally points through lurkers in his main. 3) Not storming patches of drones when he had the chance.
He had strategic errors: 1) No real harass strategy. Dumping DTs and praying is not a strategy. 2) He stuck with 2-base corsair -> templar. 3) He holed up behind tons of cannons with no offensive units, the mistake of a new SC player. 4) Not defending his expansions.
In general, he just looked awful. If you watched those replays without knowing who played, wouldn't you guess a crummy PvZ like Perfectman, instead of a Protoss who has classically had one of the best PvZs around like Kal?
Game 2 was by far the most interesting because Kal decided to go for early pressure. I'm sure Jaedong practiced against that kind of timing after his loss to Movie ere long ago. His response with purely lings was so fast, it was rather impressive. We saw him pull off of Kal's natural when Kal had iirc 2 goons and 2 zealots. Correct me if I'm not remembering this right.
Just watched the big VOD and I really enjoyed the games. I actually get the feeling that Jaedong didn't practiced against this semi-new-modified double stargate build that Kal pulled of and still he responded so well.
You really see the smalls things Jaedong do all the time and benefits in the long run from it, it's so awesome. Maybe I will see the VOD again from Kal:s perspective coz I actually think he played quite well contrary from what people here claiming, jaedong was just one step ahead frequently.
On January 17 2010 02:46 Random_0 wrote: Before we pile into "Flash v Jaedong" omg hype, let's take a moment to think about how badly Kal just played.
I was literally shocked at how poorly a very good player like Kal played.
Yes, Jaedong played well, and, yes, he makes good players look bad.
But you can't watch those games and watch Jaedong v Bisu or Jaedong v Stork and think that Kal played at the level of those two.
Kal made micro errors all over the place: 1) Flying corsairs over hydras 2) Setting his rally points through lurkers in his main. 3) Not storming patches of drones when he had the chance.
He had strategic errors: 1) No real harass strategy. Dumping DTs and praying is not a strategy. 2) He stuck with 2-base corsair -> templar. 3) He holed up behind tons of cannons with no offensive units, the mistake of a new SC player. 4) Not defending his expansions.
In general, he just looked awful. If you watched those replays without knowing who played, wouldn't you guess a crummy PvZ like Perfectman, instead of a Protoss who has classically had one of the best PvZs around like Kal?
Kal's PvZ is just not the same as it was in 2007-2008 relative to the zerg skill and the metagame at the time. In 2009 he had around 50% winrate against zerg (46% since the start of 2009 with this 0-3), which is dismal from a player of his caliber. What made him being considered stonger now than ever was his overall steady performance, very steady pvt and his finally developed great pvp (77%+ since the start of 2009!). It's just deceptive that he was always known for his pvz.
Anyway, you seem to be able to point out fundamental flaws in a korean progamer's play without too much effort. Has the idea occured to you that maybe his opponent just played too well?
He played exceptionally bad this series? Its very hard to say such things when you're playing against a monster of the match-up on top of his game and form like Jaedong. Look at the finish of the game on fighting spirit: Kal was setting up his army in the middle to gain ground while simultaneously sending in 4 DTs on the bottom left, dropping zealots on the natural and main, and keeping up his macro. Decent multitasking against most zergs, but look at JD's reaction: defended both harasses with losing only 6-7 drones total, harassed Kal's 4th as distraction, pushed Kal's army out of the middle (slowly wearing it down in the process) and dropped his main, all within half a minute while keeping up his macro as well...
I'm not saying Kal was on top of his game, but I dont think any other protoss in their current form could have stood up to Jaedong today.
On January 16 2010 18:35 FireGuyX wrote: I laugh at the people that say Kal has better PvZ then Movie.
You seen Jaedong's last two games against Movie? + Show Spoiler +
Repost
On January 16 2010 18:43 7mk wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On January 16 2010 18:39 dekuschrub wrote: man these games make you appreciate a free's late game PvZ
how the fuck did kal blow that last game dear god
i still wouldnt say these games sucked.. game 1 was really dumb, but 2 and 3 were pretty exciting!
also JD vs flash finals= WINNNNN
When was kal ever in a position to blow the last game?
When he defended JD's early attacks but then decided to add another billion cannons to make sure he doesnt come ahead out of it
Good point, he should've built around 10, not 15? Put him pretty behind.
And none of them were in a Bo3 or Bo5, and one of the wins was a useless OSL win. At Movie's current form, he's definitley able to take down Jaedong in a Bo5.
In a Bo5, Jaedong would give Movie a wedgie and then tie it into a bow.
Movie compared to last season has improved a lot. Especially in his PvT and PvP and last season Movie only had like 40 official games. He's still inconsistent barley above a 50% win rate, but next season I expect Movie to be a complete player. Movie's PvZ is much better then Kal's, Movie probably would of pushed Jaedong to a Go5.
Nah, don't think there would have made any major difference if Movie played those games. I really like both, and I think their PvZ is amongs the absolute best but honestly JD is at another level then those two, maybe Bisu in his prime would have pushed to a 5th game. Seeing JD's ZvP today made me really think if not ZvP imba at least JDvP imba. and if Kal didn't overdo those cannons in game 3, there's truly imbalance in this matchup... Looking forward to an epic JD - Flash final.
expected rape. Jaedong is the only player capable of matching Flash right now. It's going to be a great msl finals. Best final matchup (both osl and msl) since NaDa vs sAviOr.
On January 17 2010 02:46 Random_0 wrote: Before we pile into "Flash v Jaedong" omg hype, let's take a moment to think about how badly Kal just played.
I was literally shocked at how poorly a very good player like Kal played.
Yes, Jaedong played well, and, yes, he makes good players look bad.
But you can't watch those games and watch Jaedong v Bisu or Jaedong v Stork and think that Kal played at the level of those two.
Kal made micro errors all over the place: 1) Flying corsairs over hydras 2) Setting his rally points through lurkers in his main. 3) Not storming patches of drones when he had the chance.
He had strategic errors: 1) No real harass strategy. Dumping DTs and praying is not a strategy. 2) He stuck with 2-base corsair -> templar. 3) He holed up behind tons of cannons with no offensive units, the mistake of a new SC player. 4) Not defending his expansions.
In general, he just looked awful. If you watched those replays without knowing who played, wouldn't you guess a crummy PvZ like Perfectman, instead of a Protoss who has classically had one of the best PvZs around like Kal?
It was sooooo bad...
Omg, just absolutely ridiculous how many mistakes/errors he made. It was just unbelievable.
On January 17 2010 02:14 Slow Motion wrote: Well Kal did beat Roro who's pretty good, but that's the only good zerg he's beaten recently. He's lost to guys like Kwanro and Luxury.
Kwanro has 5th highest ELO... "guys like Kwannro"... Screw you haters.
kal's pvz was always overrated. Good enough to take down decent~pro zergs, and able to take one or two games from pro pro zergs every once in a while, but usually loses to pro pro zergs like effort and jaedong.
On January 17 2010 03:32 538 wrote: Has the idea occured to you that maybe his opponent just played too well?
He played exceptionally bad this series? Its very hard to say such things when you're playing against a monster of the match-up on top of his game and form like Jaedong. Look at the finish of the game on fighting spirit: Kal was setting up his army in the middle to gain ground while simultaneously sending in 4 DTs on the bottom left, dropping zealots on the natural and main, and keeping up his macro. Decent multitasking against most zergs, but look at JD's reaction: defended both harasses with losing only 6-7 drones total, harassed Kal's 4th as distraction, pushed Kal's army out of the middle (slowly wearing it down in the process) and dropped his main, all within half a minute while keeping up his macro as well...
I'm not saying Kal was on top of his game, but I dont think any other protoss in their current form could have stood up to Jaedong today.
This.
I just find it hard to believe that a progamer would rather play jaedong then stork right now.
On January 17 2010 05:54 MuffinDude wrote: kal's pvz was always overrated. Good enough to take down decent~pro zergs, and able to take one or two games from pro pro zergs every once in a while, but usually loses to pro pro zergs like effort and jaedong.
No, it wasnt always overrated, only since it has become his weakest matchup slowly during 2009. He kept a 70%+ winrate over 2007 and 2008. He was THE shit in PvZ, and the statistically strongest PvZ during the reign of the 6 dragoons. Can you grasp how much 70% is? Flash's current TvT is 73%, and its his strongest matchup, you can't just get 71-72% by a good draw and luck. (Though he didnt play too many games, like 40 versus zerg during that period)
Kal was being surprisingly honest when he said in the pre-game interview that he was confident in his PvZ matchup but not against Jaedong. Watching the games, I was struck over and over again with the notion that Kal was playing as if he were palpably fearful of Jaedong. And Jaedong, like he said he did against Stats, did a small zergling run-by at the start to gauge the temperament of his opponent. Kal played well, but he just didn't have the proper mentality to finish games. Jaedong dutifully sensed Kal's anxiety and hardcore bizzownderaped him. Many people refer to Jaedong's death stare, and that's definitely what happened.
Poor Kal. With a blow like this series, I think he'll develop a mental block, and Jaedong will always be his angstgegner.
this series was just complete mental dominance from beginning to end. I could tell from the look on Kal's face before the 1st game that he just wanted to gtfo out of the building and get the series over with.
It's a shame, because Kal is awesome, but he just doesnt have the mental strength that sets players like JD and flash apart from the rest.
It feels to me like Kal just doesnt have the confidence going in against JD (and to a lesser extent other S-class players, but JD especially seems to have a hold over Kal) that he has against lesser opponents.
How can none of the games be recommended? The Flash, Jaedong finals are coming up, and Jaedong played phenomenally. Plus, the games, especially the last, were really exciting. I mean, there wasn't ever much of a contest, but it was still really fun to watch Jaedong play so dominantly, and it'll build up the hype for the finals. I think all the games were worth watching. Kal played well too, even though he was always on his back foot - he was playing Jaedong.