Flash [Camelot] Last Flash [Outsider] Last Flash [Andromeda] Last Flash [Circuit Breaker] Last Flash [Camelot] Last
EDIT: Updated a bit to make it easier for you! Thank you for making the LR thread this time around (and beautiful banner)! -EsportsJohn + Show Spoiler +
I doubt that Flash will win this series. He was in form during the group stage but it looks like he's not peaking for the playoffs with his current form.
I think last should've considered a couple more turrets in his main. He saw the dropships escape unharmed from his main, why not add some overtime. Looked like for a while that last would stabilize but that wraith+main drop into third attack was too much to handle.
On May 23 2017 19:32 gngfn wrote: For all its faults, Camelot just gave us a really good TvT
camelot is a great map for mirrors because of the positional and tactical play. in non mirrors it has a myriad of issues. but tvt on this map is going to be fantastic
Also, is going no Turrets, no Dropships, and no Wraiths a common thing for Last in TvT? This strategy seems doomed on any map. Even with Turrets you still usually need Starport units to add mobility.
On May 23 2017 19:33 BigFan wrote: I think last should've considered a couple more turrets in his main. He saw the dropships escape unharmed from his main, why not add some overtime. Looked like for a while that last would stabilize but that wraith+main drop into third attack was too much to handle.
I won't pretend to know much about TvT, but they were both pushing hard into the middle of the map with what few units they had that early in the game, so perhaps Last figured a few more turrets would mean not having enough units for the big fights in the middle.
On May 23 2017 19:33 BigFan wrote: I think last should've considered a couple more turrets in his main. He saw the dropships escape unharmed from his main, why not add some overtime. Looked like for a while that last would stabilize but that wraith+main drop into third attack was too much to handle.
I won't pretend to know much about TvT, but they were both pushing hard into the middle of the map with what few units they had that early in the game, so perhaps Last figured a few more turrets would mean not having enough units for the big fights in the middle.
ya, I figured the same too. I just think that its worth the investment here if he manages to make some, somehow.
Im thinkin we're gonna see BCs id this 2nd match goes lategame.
Okay no lategame but The main engagement in the middle was well executed by flash. Turns out Valkyries are excellent additions to the Terran Air force composition. Im glad to see that evolution of them over the years, being implemented into top tier play.
I feel that Last is out-prepared and playing too rigidly. They've both lost a fair bit while streaming, and maybe Flash is letting it affect him less so far.
Larva knows he'll get a lot of practice in with Flag in the days ahead. Not sure he can emulate Soulkey's more subtle play, but he'll put Flash through the grinder for sure. Hopefully they'll stream a fair bit of it.
On May 23 2017 20:19 njoe wrote: Larva knows he'll get a lot of practice in with Flag in the days ahead. Not sure he can emulate Soulkey's more subtle play, but he'll put Flash through the grinder for sure. Hopefully they'll stream a fair bit of it.
They don't usually stream practice game prep for tournament though.
It feels like Flash knew what strat Last was going for every game and countered beautifully. Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.
And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?
On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote: It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.
And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?
I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever.
If you want an English stream please try FlashFTW and EsportsJohn next time. Tastosis hasn't kept up with BW at all and neither Tasteless or Artosis cares to do his homework.
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
I don't fault them too much, because both players are kind of unprecedented. No one has ever been this good for this long the way Flash has, because he achieved an incredible level of skill extremely early and has somehow maintained it for basically a decade at this point. Similarly no one in the KeSPA era that I can remember peaked as late as Last has, so it's natural to perceive him as younger than he actually is. The sort of intermission represented by SC2 combined with SC pros no longer being attached to a team house has really shifted the landscape.
On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote: It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.
And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?
I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever.
If you want an English stream please try FlashFTW and EsportsJohn next time. Tastosis hasn't kept up with BW at all and neither Tasteless or Artosis cares to do his homework.
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
I think this idea started when Flash got eliminated by GGPlay in his debut OSL (semi finals) where he lost both games 1 and 5 with 14cc vs 9 pool. Also around that time was when he cheesed Bisu out of OSL and a lot of fans were ripping on him for not being able to play late game and being a "flash in the pan" (oh how wrong they were on both counts...) He doesn't 14cc that often and I'm sure when he does he has good reason to lol, he is the best ever for a reason.
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
I think this idea started when Flash got eliminated by GGPlay in his debut OSL (semi finals) where he lost both games 1 and 5 with 14cc vs 9 pool. Also around that time was when he cheesed Bisu out of OSL and a lot of fans were ripping on him for not being able to play late game and being a "flash in the pan" (oh how wrong they were on both counts...) He doesn't 14cc that often and I'm sure when he does he has good reason to lol, he is the best ever for a reason.
Right after his gom invite win and his first OSL win against stork, flash went through a period where he was 14 ccing in every single matchup probably like 80% of the time, for a couple months. It was mostly a PL thing, but IIRC he did lose a series against jaedong that was basically just 9pool crushing 14cc again and again. Flash went through a bit of a slump in the later half of 08, overworked.
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
I think this idea started when Flash got eliminated by GGPlay in his debut OSL (semi finals) where he lost both games 1 and 5 with 14cc vs 9 pool. Also around that time was when he cheesed Bisu out of OSL and a lot of fans were ripping on him for not being able to play late game and being a "flash in the pan" (oh how wrong they were on both counts...) He doesn't 14cc that often and I'm sure when he does he has good reason to lol, he is the best ever for a reason.
Right after his gom invite win and his first OSL win against stork, flash went through a period where he was 14 ccing in every single matchup probably like 80% of the time, for a couple months. It was mostly a PL thing, but IIRC he did lose a series against jaedong that was basically just 9pool crushing 14cc again and again. Flash went through a bit of a slump in the later half of 08, overworked.
I vaguely remember how he seemed to open with 14cc all the time. The most annoying thing was that usually he would just get away with it, often with his excellent scv micro.
Also how the hell do you remember this stuff so well after 10 years?
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
I think this idea started when Flash got eliminated by GGPlay in his debut OSL (semi finals) where he lost both games 1 and 5 with 14cc vs 9 pool. Also around that time was when he cheesed Bisu out of OSL and a lot of fans were ripping on him for not being able to play late game and being a "flash in the pan" (oh how wrong they were on both counts...) He doesn't 14cc that often and I'm sure when he does he has good reason to lol, he is the best ever for a reason.
Right after his gom invite win and his first OSL win against stork, flash went through a period where he was 14 ccing in every single matchup probably like 80% of the time, for a couple months. It was mostly a PL thing, but IIRC he did lose a series against jaedong that was basically just 9pool crushing 14cc again and again. Flash went through a bit of a slump in the later half of 08, overworked.
I remember him going through a slump late 08 and early 09 before he went on went god mode but I don't remember it being specifically tied to using 14cc a lot. I know you are probably exaggerating with 80% figure but there is no way you can open cc first that much without getting punished hard by any race (over a long enough period of time that people notice the trend obviously.)
That is only tvz and there isn't a record of which time the games were played but 14cc in tvp wasn't a common thing ever
From what I remember he did refine his cc first openers later on, especially on 2 player maps to send an scv to his opponent (usually zergs) to make sure he's safe from early aggression before expanding. I don't remember jaedong beating him with 9p vs 14cc but it's been a while lol, there was the 3-0 finals where flash opened cc first every game and won
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
I think this idea started when Flash got eliminated by GGPlay in his debut OSL (semi finals) where he lost both games 1 and 5 with 14cc vs 9 pool. Also around that time was when he cheesed Bisu out of OSL and a lot of fans were ripping on him for not being able to play late game and being a "flash in the pan" (oh how wrong they were on both counts...) He doesn't 14cc that often and I'm sure when he does he has good reason to lol, he is the best ever for a reason.
Right after his gom invite win and his first OSL win against stork, flash went through a period where he was 14 ccing in every single matchup probably like 80% of the time, for a couple months. It was mostly a PL thing, but IIRC he did lose a series against jaedong that was basically just 9pool crushing 14cc again and again. Flash went through a bit of a slump in the later half of 08, overworked.
I remember those games as well - it was in 2010 the Korean Air OSL against Effort in the finals. Effort was down 0-2 and then crushed Flash 3 times with lings :D
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
I think this idea started when Flash got eliminated by GGPlay in his debut OSL (semi finals) where he lost both games 1 and 5 with 14cc vs 9 pool. Also around that time was when he cheesed Bisu out of OSL and a lot of fans were ripping on him for not being able to play late game and being a "flash in the pan" (oh how wrong they were on both counts...) He doesn't 14cc that often and I'm sure when he does he has good reason to lol, he is the best ever for a reason.
Right after his gom invite win and his first OSL win against stork, flash went through a period where he was 14 ccing in every single matchup probably like 80% of the time, for a couple months. It was mostly a PL thing, but IIRC he did lose a series against jaedong that was basically just 9pool crushing 14cc again and again. Flash went through a bit of a slump in the later half of 08, overworked.
I remember him going through a slump late 08 and early 09 before he went on went god mode but I don't remember it being specifically tied to using 14cc a lot. I know you are probably exaggerating with 80% figure but there is no way you can open cc first that much without getting punished hard by any race (over a long enough period of time that people notice the trend obviously.)
That is only tvz and there isn't a record of which time the games were played but 14cc in tvp wasn't a common thing ever
From what I remember he did refine his cc first openers later on, especially on 2 player maps to send an scv to his opponent (usually zergs) to make sure he's safe from early aggression before expanding. I don't remember jaedong beating him with 9p vs 14cc but it's been a while lol, there was the 3-0 finals where flash opened cc first every game and won
Flash sort of was in god mode even in late 08, he was just playing an insane amount of games. I remember him looking constantly stressed and tired around the time im talking about. And yeah it wasnt actually 80%, but it was pretty often. His series against Jaedong in the gom classic, I think he went 14 cc three times in a row and went 0-3. If he didnt it was at least twice in a row, and this was back to back after losing in PL doing 14cc quite a few times.
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
I think this idea started when Flash got eliminated by GGPlay in his debut OSL (semi finals) where he lost both games 1 and 5 with 14cc vs 9 pool. Also around that time was when he cheesed Bisu out of OSL and a lot of fans were ripping on him for not being able to play late game and being a "flash in the pan" (oh how wrong they were on both counts...) He doesn't 14cc that often and I'm sure when he does he has good reason to lol, he is the best ever for a reason.
Right after his gom invite win and his first OSL win against stork, flash went through a period where he was 14 ccing in every single matchup probably like 80% of the time, for a couple months. It was mostly a PL thing, but IIRC he did lose a series against jaedong that was basically just 9pool crushing 14cc again and again. Flash went through a bit of a slump in the later half of 08, overworked.
I vaguely remember how he seemed to open with 14cc all the time. The most annoying thing was that usually he would just get away with it, often with his excellent scv micro.
Also how the hell do you remember this stuff so well after 10 years?
On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote: It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.
And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?
I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever.
If you want an English stream please try FlashFTW and EsportsJohn next time. Tastosis hasn't kept up with BW at all and neither Tasteless or Artosis cares to do his homework.
On May 24 2017 02:50 darktreb wrote: Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
Oh, I must be remember it wrong then. But there were other important games around that time when he went 14cc in similar fashion and lost because of it. Right?
It's so strange how they (Artosis and Tasteless) say Last is so much younger than Flash. Flash is not even a year older than Last if you check their TLPD pages. They are the same age, bros. Just sayin'
I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers.
[Flash and Last trade evenly]
> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
I think this idea started when Flash got eliminated by GGPlay in his debut OSL (semi finals) where he lost both games 1 and 5 with 14cc vs 9 pool. Also around that time was when he cheesed Bisu out of OSL and a lot of fans were ripping on him for not being able to play late game and being a "flash in the pan" (oh how wrong they were on both counts...) He doesn't 14cc that often and I'm sure when he does he has good reason to lol, he is the best ever for a reason.
Right after his gom invite win and his first OSL win against stork, flash went through a period where he was 14 ccing in every single matchup probably like 80% of the time, for a couple months. It was mostly a PL thing, but IIRC he did lose a series against jaedong that was basically just 9pool crushing 14cc again and again. Flash went through a bit of a slump in the later half of 08, overworked.
I remember him going through a slump late 08 and early 09 before he went on went god mode but I don't remember it being specifically tied to using 14cc a lot. I know you are probably exaggerating with 80% figure but there is no way you can open cc first that much without getting punished hard by any race (over a long enough period of time that people notice the trend obviously.)
That is only tvz and there isn't a record of which time the games were played but 14cc in tvp wasn't a common thing ever
From what I remember he did refine his cc first openers later on, especially on 2 player maps to send an scv to his opponent (usually zergs) to make sure he's safe from early aggression before expanding. I don't remember jaedong beating him with 9p vs 14cc but it's been a while lol, there was the 3-0 finals where flash opened cc first every game and won
Flash sort of was in god mode even in late 08, he was just playing an insane amount of games. I remember him looking constantly stressed and tired around the time im talking about. And yeah it wasnt actually 80%, but it was pretty often. His series against Jaedong in the gom classic, I think he went 14 cc three times in a row and went 0-3. If he didnt it was at least twice in a row, and this was back to back after losing in PL doing 14cc quite a few times.
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
I think this idea started when Flash got eliminated by GGPlay in his debut OSL (semi finals) where he lost both games 1 and 5 with 14cc vs 9 pool. Also around that time was when he cheesed Bisu out of OSL and a lot of fans were ripping on him for not being able to play late game and being a "flash in the pan" (oh how wrong they were on both counts...) He doesn't 14cc that often and I'm sure when he does he has good reason to lol, he is the best ever for a reason.
Right after his gom invite win and his first OSL win against stork, flash went through a period where he was 14 ccing in every single matchup probably like 80% of the time, for a couple months. It was mostly a PL thing, but IIRC he did lose a series against jaedong that was basically just 9pool crushing 14cc again and again. Flash went through a bit of a slump in the later half of 08, overworked.
I vaguely remember how he seemed to open with 14cc all the time. The most annoying thing was that usually he would just get away with it, often with his excellent scv micro.
Also how the hell do you remember this stuff so well after 10 years?
I watched a looot of bw in highschool, thats how.
While you're right that he did 14CC twice against GGPlay, I don't think that had much to do with the "Flash always 14CC" meme. That was his debut season after all, and 14CC is basically a cheese. If anything that should have counted toward the "Flash cheeser" meme but people tend to view all-ins and strategic builds (like the infamous Bisu Monty Hall game) as cheese, not econ.
I think ForGG was the only major series where he actually got 14CC'd out of the series. In other situations, it just felt extra notable because he was a top player but not performing in individual leagues and people were frustrated, using the logic that "if you're a top player play a normal build and still win", which sort of misses the point of how you become a top player.
I also don't think he went 14CC that much against Jaedong in GOM? Even if he did, it was Jaedong going 2 Hatch Muta that killed him, not 9 pool. If anything, 14CC should have helped him, but he wasn't prepared for the 2 Hatch Muta timings. It's not like 2 Hatch Muta beats 14CC when played right. In ZvT, nothing beats 14CC as a build order except 9 pool or earlier.
Narratives around Flash always get amplified because he's so good, and plays so many significant games.
The thing is, Terrans should go 14CC once in awhile. It's a massive advantage when it works, and it has the meta effect of making Zergs guess 9 pool sometimes, which, when Zerg 9 pools against standard Terran, that's almost as good as going 14CC against 12 Hatch. Whether or not Flash "overdid" it is debatable and results biased thinking. Exaggerated claims like "80% 14CC" are just ridiculous.
It's funny too when people get over-critical because someone lost a few straight rock paper scissors. Brood War is full of small gambles - that's part of the game. Like Flash vs Last in ASL1, where Last was exploiting Flash's forward Barracks. It's not like Flash didn't notice - he decided to gamble that Last wouldn't keep trying to hard counter it, because it's quite expensive for Terran to sent out an SCV to try to do that so early. Last won that mind game, but to say he "obviously shouldn't have kept doing that" is convenient hindsight bias.
It's like when Protoss makes 1 less Cannon and loses and people are like "why don't you always make 2 Cannons" as if that doesn't have its own meta-implications. Some builds just look bad when you lose with them, but that doesn't make them bad in the long run.
On May 24 2017 02:50 darktreb wrote: Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.
Oh, I must be remember it wrong then. But there were other important games around that time when he went 14cc in similar fashion and lost because of it. Right?
Sure, he lost a handful of Proleague games going 14CC as well.
But I think it was "Flash losing" followed by a narrative being constructed as much as anything. Terrans get countered with 14CC all the time but no one remembers if it's not Flash.
In 2009, the narrative was "Flash is overrated" because he wasn't going deep in leagues, and every time he lost with 14CC people were like "it's just like that ForGG series from 2008". No one counted the games Flash won when he 14CC'd. People would say stuff like "if Flash is so good shouldn't he win playing straight up?". Maybe some games he could've played safer, but Flash's calling card his entire career was to maximize econ and rely on defense, and you don't get there without pushing the limits too far sometimes.
In 2010 and beyond, if Flash lost any game it was notable, so of course if he lost due to 14CC getting blind countered, people would be like "why did he do that when he's Flash? He doesn't need to do that". Again, this ignores how he got a lot of build order advantages by people hoping to blind counter his 14CC. An example would be the MSL series against MVP when he basically mind fucked MVP 3 straight games due to MVP thinking Flash was likely to play safe and Flash center Rax-ing repeatedly. No one ever talks about stuff like that though (other than in remembrance of Broodwar MVP) because when Flash wins it's not notable.
If I would criticize one build in Flash's later career for being too obvious, I'd pick game 4 of the OSL finals against Effort where he BBS'd. I think he should have BBS'd in game 3 to just end it (and it probably would have worked), but it was really transparent he would try it in game 4 because of the momentum. Lo and behold, Effort scouted center with his initial Overlord and that basically handed him game 4, taking a 2-0 to 2-2 and we all know what happened in game 5.
On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote: It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.
And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?
I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever.
If you want an English stream please try FlashFTW and EsportsJohn next time. Tastosis hasn't kept up with BW at all and neither Tasteless or Artosis cares to do his homework.
Where can we find this stream? Twitch?
Afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2 definitely come check us out!
Is there any way those vods can be uploaded to youtube? Afreeca vods lag and we are beyond the point where watching broodwar at 3am is a thing we can do regularly.
Flash's preparation was beautiful. Seeing him take out last faster than last took him out in season 1 was wonderful.
On May 24 2017 07:21 Entertaining wrote: I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers.
[Flash and Last trade evenly]
> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
On May 24 2017 07:21 Entertaining wrote: I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers.
[Flash and Last trade evenly]
> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shoot me.
who the fuck complains of tastosis
everyone that likes commentators who have actually watched the game for the last few years?
On May 24 2017 07:21 Entertaining wrote: I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers.
[Flash and Last trade evenly]
> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shoot me.
who the fuck complains of tastosis
Last time we tried to watch tastosis, they weren't even announcing the build orders. If we are going to listen to english commentary, we expect to be able to figure out who came ahead in the opening while mostly only listening to the audio. If we wanted to have to watch the video to figure out how many hatcheries went down before the pool, we are better off watching the korean commentators.
I watch the korean stream/vods, I expect casters to display high levels of knowledge and deliver pertinent analyses. Tastosis does neither, in fact they do the opposite.
On May 24 2017 07:21 Entertaining wrote: I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers.
[Flash and Last trade evenly]
> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shoot me.
who the fuck complains of tastosis
Last time we tried to watch tastosis, they weren't even announcing the build orders. If we are going to listen to english commentary, we expect to be able to figure out who came ahead in the opening while mostly only listening to the audio. If we wanted to have to watch the video to figure out how many hatcheries went down before the pool, we are better off watching the korean commentators.
Try my stream with EsportsJohn! afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote: It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.
And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?
I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever.
I think the idea with the Alphago nickname isn't just the robotic aspect of it. Alphago is a learning algorithm. It improves as it plays itself over and over and has become just straight up better than any human at all stages of the game. It's a good nickname since Flash is God and Alphago hasn't reached diety status yet, but can beat all normal humans.
On May 24 2017 07:21 Entertaining wrote: I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers.
[Flash and Last trade evenly]
> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shoot me.
who the fuck complains of tastosis
Last time we tried to watch tastosis, they weren't even announcing the build orders. If we are going to listen to english commentary, we expect to be able to figure out who came ahead in the opening while mostly only listening to the audio. If we wanted to have to watch the video to figure out how many hatcheries went down before the pool, we are better off watching the korean commentators.
It's not a podcast. They are probably operating under the assumption that people are going to actually watch the game they are casting
On May 24 2017 07:21 Entertaining wrote: I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers.
[Flash and Last trade evenly]
> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shoot me.
who the fuck complains of tastosis
Last time we tried to watch tastosis, they weren't even announcing the build orders. If we are going to listen to english commentary, we expect to be able to figure out who came ahead in the opening while mostly only listening to the audio. If we wanted to have to watch the video to figure out how many hatcheries went down before the pool, we are better off watching the korean commentators.
It's not a podcast. They are probably operating under the assumption that people are going to actually watch the game they are casting
you do realize theres something called a play-by-play caster right? it helps the audience focus on the specific images they are seeing on their screens. its like when basketball casters pull up a slowmo and literally, its in slowmo, and they're still explaining the play and action play-by-play.
On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote: It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.
And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?
I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever.
I think the idea with the Alphago nickname isn't just the robotic aspect of it. Alphago is a learning algorithm. It improves as it plays itself over and over and has become just straight up better than any human at all stages of the game. It's a good nickname since Flash is God and Alphago hasn't reached diety status yet, but can beat all normal humans.
Im pretty sure the ppl who called Last by the nickname never even heard of a learning algorithm so I think the name was given just for the robotic aspect.
I'm surprised there's so much tasteless and artosis hate here, I've followed pro-sc for a long time and I've never enjoyed watching it without theirs, incontrol's, chill's or day[9]'s commentary, I'll just mute and put on music if there are other commentators normally.
There's a lot more to commentating than just saying/knowing what's going on, it's about being entertaining too and they have that down pat
I expect casters to display high levels of game knowledge and for them to offer pertinent analyses. So far I've only ever seen Sayle deliver on both aspects as far as English casters go. I've been watching, and very much enjoying, the Korean casters even though I still can't understand a single word they say.
On May 24 2017 19:50 d(O.o)a wrote: There's a lot more to commentating than just saying/knowing what's going on, it's about being entertaining too and they have that down pat
I think they get a bit to much hate, they are focused on catering to new viewers and people who only watched SC2.
They also do bring up some really nice little details and insights at times, like the wraith micro that Flash did over the turret to make it harder to click target it for Last. They have plenty of stuff like that and sometimes they bring some insight to the game from the perspective of people who have played it at a high level.
But overall I am not personally a fan, I find most of their humor to be more obnoxious than entertaining and I am so used to watching with commentators that call out build orders I often don't pay attention to it closely enough myself, I have started to do it now though and it is kinda frustrating to listen to them speculate about "was it pool first or overlord first?" when it was obvious which one it was for example.
But, I do like their chemistry and they have a nice energy so I don't think they deserve the hate they get, I understand that I am not their target audience and thats fine.
I should start watching the flasftw stream though but youtube works much better for me, afreeca stutters when I watch it on my tv.
On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote: It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.
And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?
I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever.
If you want an English stream please try FlashFTW and EsportsJohn next time. Tastosis hasn't kept up with BW at all and neither Tasteless or Artosis cares to do his homework.
Where can we find this stream? Twitch?
Afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2 definitely come check us out!
Is there any way those vods can be uploaded to youtube? Afreeca vods lag and we are beyond the point where watching broodwar at 3am is a thing we can do regularly.
Flash's preparation was beautiful. Seeing him take out last faster than last took him out in season 1 was wonderful.
Unfortunately, our hands are tied there. AfreecaTV only uploads the ENG1 VoDs to YouTube, and we're legally restricted from uploading it ourselves. Maybe we can talk with the admins about it, though.
On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote: It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.
And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?
I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever.
I think the idea with the Alphago nickname isn't just the robotic aspect of it. Alphago is a learning algorithm. It improves as it plays itself over and over and has become just straight up better than any human at all stages of the game. It's a good nickname since Flash is God and Alphago hasn't reached diety status yet, but can beat all normal humans.
Im pretty sure the ppl who called Last by the nickname never even heard of a learning algorithm so I think the name was given just for the robotic aspect.
Alphago was pretty huge in Korea, I'd be surprised if they didn't know about the learning.
On May 24 2017 07:21 Entertaining wrote: I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers.
[Flash and Last trade evenly]
> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shoot me.
who the fuck complains of tastosis
Last time we tried to watch tastosis, they weren't even announcing the build orders. If we are going to listen to english commentary, we expect to be able to figure out who came ahead in the opening while mostly only listening to the audio. If we wanted to have to watch the video to figure out how many hatcheries went down before the pool, we are better off watching the korean commentators.
It's not a podcast. They are probably operating under the assumption that people are going to actually watch the game they are casting
you do realize theres something called a play-by-play caster right? it helps the audience focus on the specific images they are seeing on their screens. its like when basketball casters pull up a slowmo and literally, its in slowmo, and they're still explaining the play and action play-by-play.
If you listen to a radio play-by-play guy vs a tv play-by-play guy it's a huge difference. The tv guy doesn't tell you every detail like the radio guy because, again, he assumes you have functional eyes.
Although it's a fair point that tastosis don't follow the traditional mold of a play by play guy with a color guy that has been working for years. Instead it's just the two of them shouting their thoughts over the course of the game.
Thank you for the video with subs! Btv nothing like the live translation, they really need to find someone that can actually do this live, instead of mimicing a translation!
I don't mind tastosis actually. They're pretty entertaining to listen to. They get caught napping sometimes, not catching what B.O. is happening, but that's not a big deal imo since you can easily see for yourself what's actually going on... and other casters fall into that trap too (talking about something else instead of watching the early game). Interesting that this debate comes up in this match, coz I think Tastosis actually made more correct calls this series than FlashFTW/John (i.e. the vulture drop at the end).
They've improved too or at least have refrained from talking over and over non-stop about how great a player is. I get they needed to do that for a.) newbies to the BW scene and b.) to build hype/interest.
Obv the gold standard would be the korean casters. Or if I could listen to progamers commentate a live match, that'd be awesome. Now if only I knew korean...
On May 25 2017 05:48 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: I don't mind tastosis actually. They're pretty entertaining to listen to. They get caught napping sometimes, not catching what B.O. is happening, but that's not a big deal imo since you can easily see for yourself what's actually going on... and other casters fall into that trap too (talking about something else instead of watching the early game). Interesting that this debate comes up in this match, coz I think Tastosis actually made more correct calls this series than FlashFTW/John (i.e. the vulture drop at the end).
They've improved too or at least have refrained from talking over and over non-stop about how great a player is. I get they needed to do that for a.) newbies to the BW scene and b.) to build hype/interest.
Obv the gold standard would be the korean casters. Or if I could listen to progamers commentate a live match, that'd be awesome. Now if only I knew korean...
I CALLED THE VULTURE DROP, FLASHFTW IS STOOPID
But in all seriousness, Tastetosis are the best. There's no reason not to emulate them; their style is time-tested and solid, and both of them are far and above most people when it comes to game knowledge and elocution. Lately they've been on a noob-friendly kick where they try to explain ultra basic concepts or compare things to other games which has kind of made them look deceivingly dumber than they actually are, but there are a few moments when they are 100% on point (like Artosis calling the double ups vulture drop in G3).
It would be awesome if we had a cast like the Koreans, but from what I understand, it's very strange if you try to put that style into English because it just sounds like a bunch of bros yelling over each other about the game. Another really obvious difference is how English casts have historically been dominated by duo casts while Korean has a tri-cast setup. I'm pretty sure LoL has adopted the tri-cast for live events, but other than that, it's hard to tell how well it work in an RTS.
(P.S. Thanks for all of the support from everyone who watches the cast with FlashFTW and me. I'm obviously very new at this, but I'm listening to feedback and trying to improve.)
On May 24 2017 07:21 Entertaining wrote: I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers.
[Flash and Last trade evenly]
> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shoot me.
who the fuck complains of tastosis
Last time we tried to watch tastosis, they weren't even announcing the build orders. If we are going to listen to english commentary, we expect to be able to figure out who came ahead in the opening while mostly only listening to the audio. If we wanted to have to watch the video to figure out how many hatcheries went down before the pool, we are better off watching the korean commentators.
It's not a podcast. They are probably operating under the assumption that people are going to actually watch the game they are casting
you do realize theres something called a play-by-play caster right? it helps the audience focus on the specific images they are seeing on their screens. its like when basketball casters pull up a slowmo and literally, its in slowmo, and they're still explaining the play and action play-by-play.
If you listen to a radio play-by-play guy vs a tv play-by-play guy it's a huge difference. The tv guy doesn't tell you every detail like the radio guy because, again, he assumes you have functional eyes.
Obviously I'm not the most qualified person to talk about this, but I believe that play-by-play should generally try to describe the scene well enough so that someone who is alt-tabbed or listening to the game without watching can understand what's going on. Obviously you don't need to do it quite to the extent that a radio broadcaster would, but I think it's better to say too much than too little on what's happening.
On May 25 2017 05:48 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: I don't mind tastosis actually. They're pretty entertaining to listen to. They get caught napping sometimes, not catching what B.O. is happening, but that's not a big deal imo since you can easily see for yourself what's actually going on... and other casters fall into that trap too (talking about something else instead of watching the early game). Interesting that this debate comes up in this match, coz I think Tastosis actually made more correct calls this series than FlashFTW/John (i.e. the vulture drop at the end).
They've improved too or at least have refrained from talking over and over non-stop about how great a player is. I get they needed to do that for a.) newbies to the BW scene and b.) to build hype/interest.
Obv the gold standard would be the korean casters. Or if I could listen to progamers commentate a live match, that'd be awesome. Now if only I knew korean...
I CALLED THE VULTURE DROP, FLASHFTW IS STOOPID
But in all seriousness, Tastetosis are the best. There's no reason not to emulate them; their style is time-tested and solid, and both of them are far and above most people when it comes to game knowledge and elocution. Lately they've been on a noob-friendly kick where they try to explain ultra basic concepts or compare things to other games which has kind of made them look deceivingly dumber than they actually are, but there are a few moments when they are 100% on point (like Artosis calling the double ups vulture drop in G3).
It would be awesome if we had a cast like the Koreans, but from what I understand, it's very strange if you try to put that style into English because it just sounds like a bunch of bros yelling over each other about the game. Another really obvious difference is how English casts have historically been dominated by duo casts while Korean has a tri-cast setup. I'm pretty sure LoL has adopted the tri-cast for live events, but other than that, it's hard to tell how well it work in an RTS.
(P.S. Thanks for all of the support from everyone who watches the cast with FlashFTW and me. I'm obviously very new at this, but I'm listening to feedback and trying to improve.)
On May 24 2017 07:21 Entertaining wrote: I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers.
[Flash and Last trade evenly]
> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shoot me.
who the fuck complains of tastosis
Last time we tried to watch tastosis, they weren't even announcing the build orders. If we are going to listen to english commentary, we expect to be able to figure out who came ahead in the opening while mostly only listening to the audio. If we wanted to have to watch the video to figure out how many hatcheries went down before the pool, we are better off watching the korean commentators.
It's not a podcast. They are probably operating under the assumption that people are going to actually watch the game they are casting
you do realize theres something called a play-by-play caster right? it helps the audience focus on the specific images they are seeing on their screens. its like when basketball casters pull up a slowmo and literally, its in slowmo, and they're still explaining the play and action play-by-play.
If you listen to a radio play-by-play guy vs a tv play-by-play guy it's a huge difference. The tv guy doesn't tell you every detail like the radio guy because, again, he assumes you have functional eyes.
Obviously I'm not the most qualified person to talk about this, but I believe that play-by-play should generally try to describe the scene well enough so that someone who is alt-tabbed or listening to the game without watching can understand what's going on. Obviously you don't need to do it quite to the extent that a radio broadcaster would, but I think it's better to say too much than too little on what's happening.
The thing is I don't think that works in starcraft, if you look at sports there's one focal point - the ball. The entire match resolves around that ball and where it goes, what they're doing to protect it etc. That's not the case in starcraft in that you'd have to call out so many things from all around the map and in real time that's just not possible. We're also limited by what the camera can see because there isn't just one focal point, the best observer in the world can only show so much of what's going on.
On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.
Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.
In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?
In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.
In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.
These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.
It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.
You've been replied to already I believe but, Flash was very well known for his preparation. The series against GGPlay where he went 14CC every game and got crushed, AND the series against ForGG where he went 14CC every game and gor crushed, were perhaps exceptions, but that was extremely early in his career. But anyone who knows a reasonable amount about professional starcraft has known that Flash was the very best when it came to the mental aspect and preparation of the game, especially keeping in mind that he had a huge target on his back when he was in his prime. (He faced tons of opponents doing cheese builds or taking economic risks specifically tailored to beat him, and they almost never worked.)
On May 25 2017 05:48 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: I don't mind tastosis actually. They're pretty entertaining to listen to. They get caught napping sometimes, not catching what B.O. is happening, but that's not a big deal imo since you can easily see for yourself what's actually going on... and other casters fall into that trap too (talking about something else instead of watching the early game). Interesting that this debate comes up in this match, coz I think Tastosis actually made more correct calls this series than FlashFTW/John (i.e. the vulture drop at the end).
They've improved too or at least have refrained from talking over and over non-stop about how great a player is. I get they needed to do that for a.) newbies to the BW scene and b.) to build hype/interest.
Obv the gold standard would be the korean casters. Or if I could listen to progamers commentate a live match, that'd be awesome. Now if only I knew korean...
Tfw given one example where i miss a call and get degraded cause of it
On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote: It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.
And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?
I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever.
I think the idea with the Alphago nickname isn't just the robotic aspect of it. Alphago is a learning algorithm. It improves as it plays itself over and over and has become just straight up better than any human at all stages of the game. It's a good nickname since Flash is God and Alphago hasn't reached diety status yet, but can beat all normal humans.
Im pretty sure the ppl who called Last by the nickname never even heard of a learning algorithm so I think the name was given just for the robotic aspect.
Alphago was pretty huge in Korea, I'd be surprised if they didn't know about the learning.
Yes it was huge in Korea and pretty much anyone at least familiar with machine learning would know that AlphaGo "learns" but to the general public AlphaGo is a program that was able to beat Lee Sedol. Even on the news when they say that AlphaGo is able to learn I really don't think the majority of ppl actually understood what that meant. Though actually thinking about it since a lot of korean starcraft fans do tend to have a science/engineering background I guess they would have more than the general public an idea of how AlphaGo works. I still don't think that the nickname was given to Last to portray him as some kind of learning "robot".
Just to sum up, I don't think the majority of Koreans really know that AlphaGo is able to learn. Or at least even if they know it they don't associate AlphaGo as the "learning" program that beat Lee Sedol but just as the program that won. This is why I think the name was given to Last to highlight his perfect, almost robotic play and not that hes a robot that learns.
Talking about nonsense is not entertain. Nothing wrong with being quiet, yet no one do that pretty much. If you as a commentator feel youy need to talk for the sake of it you are doing your job bad.
Wow, what an amazing performance by Flash! The first game was close and till almost the end I was not sure who is going to win. Last seemed to handle the first drops pretty well. But in the next two games Flash dominated Last strategically.
Regarding commentary. I agree with people who complain about Tasteless and Artosis. It is clear that Artosis haven't been playing/watching much broodwar and forgot a lot what he once knew.
On May 25 2017 07:58 ColdLava wrote: You've been replied to already I believe but, Flash was very well known for his preparation. The series against GGPlay where he went 14CC every game and got crushed, AND the series against ForGG where he went 14CC every game and gor crushed, were perhaps exceptions, but that was extremely early in his career. But anyone who knows a reasonable amount about professional starcraft has known that Flash was the very best when it came to the mental aspect and preparation of the game, especially keeping in mind that he had a huge target on his back when he was in his prime. (He faced tons of opponents doing cheese builds or taking economic risks specifically tailored to beat him, and they almost never worked.)
There have been other examples as well, like vs Last in ASL1, where his opponent did look more prepared.
But I think the most important thing you bring up up is the part I highlighted.
Flash has been considered to be one of the best Broodwar players since 2008, almost since coming onto the scene really.
He has evolved from The Prodigy to The Terminator to God. Everyone who faces him have studied his games for so long, it is like in most 1v1 sports it is much easier to become champion than it is to stay champion.
And I feel like I need to clarify since it seems like people didn't really get my point, I replied with a few reasons to why Flash might not get enough credit for his preparation as he deserves. Maybe I overstated that he wasn't but my main point was that it can seem like he isn't at times.
And another reason, because he is considered the best player straight up, if the game was played with static build orders one would think that Flash would win everytime. So whenever he wins, it is because he was better. If he loses it is because his opponent had a better strategy and was better prepared.
His preparations can be a bit overshadowed by his pure skill.
Even though his preparations might be what makes him seem to be so ridiculously skilled.
"If someone hits me, I hit them back. I gave him what he gave me."
"My mindset coming into this match was, "I'm gonna hit him hard, no matter what."
"This season is all about my revenge."
"I have something to give back to Soulkey as well. I'll make sure to get my revenge."
wtfffffffff This interview is scary as fuck.
Why does Flash have a grudge with Soulkey???
It is damn scary. It sounds like from those korean revenge movies.
After the beating that presented to Last, Flash sends a strong message to Soulkey. Soulkey should be scared.
I remember reading this on TL back in the day (I'm paraphrasing): "As much as we all love it when excitement is put back into the game whenever someone manages the inhuman task of actually taking a game off Flash, we should all take a moment to reflect on how this kid reacted the last time this happened. Nowadays, Flash seems to be taking every single loss as a personal insult and isnt satisfied until he goes on a winning streak twice as long as the last one."
Flash was playing perfect in game 1 and was definitely beatable in game 2, game 3 was build order win. To be honest, Flash looking so good have a lot to do with how sloppy Last was playing. In game one the first push last made wasnt so good and it was the turning point in the game, if last managed to succeed and set up position at Flash nat, that might be just game. Flash did great job with moves after he secures position on map, when he just take up all the units in dropships while Last doesnt have a clue whats happening.
Second game. You can see the choke on Last's face from the begining of the game. He played so super ultra sloppy that its not believable. Last was so shocked by the wraith of Flash that he pulled like 6-7 scvs to make 1 turret, while at the same time he totally forgot about his expand and started to build turret there like 2 minutes later, after flash pulled his wraiths from the main base.
In their previous match Llast taken out Flash in the same fashion, it was so perfectly executed by Last that he looked like the master of tvt. Im really eager to see their 3rd meeting in a next possible ASL.
On May 26 2017 21:46 _Animus_ wrote: Flash was playing perfect in game 1 and was definitely beatable in game 2, game 3 was build order win. To be honest, Flash looking so good have a lot to do with how sloppy Last was playing. In game one the first push last made wasnt so good and it was the turning point in the game, if last managed to succeed and set up position at Flash nat, that might be just game. Flash did great job with moves after he secures position on map, when he just take up all the units in dropships while Last doesnt have a clue whats happening.
Second game. You can see the choke on Last's face from the begining of the game. He played so super ultra sloppy that its not believable. Last was so shocked by the wraith of Flash that he pulled like 6-7 scvs to make 1 turret, while at the same time he totally forgot about his expand and started to build turret there like 2 minutes later, after flash pulled his wraiths from the main base.
In their previous match Llast taken out Flash in the same fashion, it was so perfectly executed by Last that he looked like the master of tvt. Im really eager to see their 3rd meeting in a next possible ASL.
Actually, I think G1 was more winnable for Last. I still don't understand why he gg'd so quickly.
On May 26 2017 21:46 _Animus_ wrote: Flash was playing perfect in game 1 and was definitely beatable in game 2, game 3 was build order win. To be honest, Flash looking so good have a lot to do with how sloppy Last was playing. In game one the first push last made wasnt so good and it was the turning point in the game, if last managed to succeed and set up position at Flash nat, that might be just game. Flash did great job with moves after he secures position on map, when he just take up all the units in dropships while Last doesnt have a clue whats happening.
Second game. You can see the choke on Last's face from the begining of the game. He played so super ultra sloppy that its not believable. Last was so shocked by the wraith of Flash that he pulled like 6-7 scvs to make 1 turret, while at the same time he totally forgot about his expand and started to build turret there like 2 minutes later, after flash pulled his wraiths from the main base.
In their previous match Llast taken out Flash in the same fashion, it was so perfectly executed by Last that he looked like the master of tvt. Im really eager to see their 3rd meeting in a next possible ASL.
Actually, I think G1 was more winnable for Last. I still don't understand why he gg'd so quickly.
He lost all his SCVs at his third and most in his main. He was in a terrible situation economically and had a smaller army due to them filtering in after the drop in his main. In that position, against flash of all people? no chance of recovering to try and make a comeback.
On May 26 2017 21:46 _Animus_ wrote: Flash was playing perfect in game 1 and was definitely beatable in game 2, game 3 was build order win. To be honest, Flash looking so good have a lot to do with how sloppy Last was playing. In game one the first push last made wasnt so good and it was the turning point in the game, if last managed to succeed and set up position at Flash nat, that might be just game. Flash did great job with moves after he secures position on map, when he just take up all the units in dropships while Last doesnt have a clue whats happening.
Second game. You can see the choke on Last's face from the begining of the game. He played so super ultra sloppy that its not believable. Last was so shocked by the wraith of Flash that he pulled like 6-7 scvs to make 1 turret, while at the same time he totally forgot about his expand and started to build turret there like 2 minutes later, after flash pulled his wraiths from the main base.
In their previous match Llast taken out Flash in the same fashion, it was so perfectly executed by Last that he looked like the master of tvt. Im really eager to see their 3rd meeting in a next possible ASL.
Actually, I think G1 was more winnable for Last. I still don't understand why he gg'd so quickly.
He lost all his SCVs at his third and most in his main. He was in a terrible situation economically and had a smaller army due to them filtering in after the drop in his main. In that position, against flash of all people? no chance of recovering to try and make a comeback.
Err, I might remember that incorrectly but the scv count in his main after the assault was surprisingly decent when they showed it. His nat was untouched and yeah he lost all scvs at the third but Flash just established his third when Last gg'd. I don't know man... He was surely behind at that point but not gg-worthy imho, especially when consider the match-up. All in all I don't get how he could lose that many scvs to drops again and again. That broke him because he was actually quite a bit ahead in the game. He freaking _killed_ Flash's third... I would say if he would have defended the last drop in the main in a reasonable manner (it was a desaster), he would have won the game.
Last actually destroyed the CC at Flash's third twice, but there were more pressing engagements occurring in Last's base. If you watch the mini-map during the game you can see the floating CC's disappearing to the one or two goliaths there each time. On the other hand, Flash didn't actually destroy any of Last's CCs. It mattered not in the end, as Flash had total map control and killed a ton of SCVs. Against a lesser player Last may have still had a fighting chance, but against Flash he knew it was futile.