Nah I'm too fking gosu now... also not allowing offraces this season from gosu players, unfortunately.
My plan was to originally host two leagues side by side, this one, and one for higher ranked players. I think it would've been way too much work for me to handle as I could barely deal with RTL1 by myself, but if this goes well I plan on hosting a league for higher ranked players since I think I personally rule at hosting things and am a badass admin.
Yep. Just tell me your race and if you can grab your starlog.gg profile, that'd be cool too. There are no race restrictions in the league, but it is just for an organizational thing. I think it is cool to pair players and teams with their race tags. And that map is dope. If enough people vote for other in the 3v3 poll, I can do a rotating map pool of nice 3v3 maps like the one you posted.
It appears I'm fucking retarded. I based the idea of checking people's starlog.gg profiles off the fact that you can openly see pro player profiles (I was even able to search a 2,500 MMR Soulkey account and see his whole match history along with build orders). Maybe I'm unsure how the website works. Did you link your starlog.gg to your battle.net account cause atm it says "We could not verify this user's account. Only partial matching information is available. If this account is yours, please enter the battle tag or sign-in." for me.
Basically, my word on whether people can join or not if they peaked over 1,800 is "yes". If you're like at a 70%-80% win-ratio and sitting at 1800 or around there, obviously it would be hard to believe that your true MMR is near 1,800. I can't see your profile at all, but if you fall under the former, you are more than welcome to play in the league.
It appears I'm fucking retarded. I based the idea of checking people's starlog.gg profiles off the fact that you can openly see pro player profiles (I was even able to search a 2,500 MMR Soulkey account and see his whole match history along with build orders). Maybe I'm unsure how the website works. Did you link your starlog.gg to your battle.net account cause atm it says "We could not verify this user's account. Only partial matching information is available. If this account is yours, please enter the battle tag or sign-in." for me.
Basically, my word on whether people can join or not if they peaked over 1,800 is "yes". If you're like at a 70%-80% win-ratio and sitting at 1800 or around there, obviously it would be hard to believe that your true MMR is near 1,800. I can't see your profile at all, but if you fall under the former, you are more than welcome to play in the league.
Hmm, I'm thinking probably not, especially since a bunch of my wins got negated by disconnects. You can see back in September when my MMR dropped, I got 38 wins recorded, but my MMR still just drops like a rock as though I didn't get any points for winning.
Suggestion: Some sort of draft or way to even the teams up. For example I'm like 1500 mmr and would love to anchor one of the better players/team down to the "rookie" level
btw it would be kinda neat if all participants try to spread the self equally based on MMR/Skill. Sure some people want to play together, but if one team consists just of players hitting the MMR limit it might get quite boring eventually.
On November 29 2017 08:31 MarcoJ wrote: btw it would be kinda neat if all participants try to spread the self equally based on MMR/Skill. Sure some people want to play together, but if one team consists just of players hitting the MMR limit it might get quite boring eventually.
P.S: I assume the 24th will be no games?
On November 29 2017 06:46 unoriginal_usernam3 wrote: Super cool of you Faust for hosting again!
Suggestion: Some sort of draft or way to even the teams up. For example I'm like 1500 mmr and would love to anchor one of the better players/team down to the "rookie" level
Good suggestions. This is something I considered even in the first league, and although it would be more fair to spread all players out by MMR, it would be too hard of a task. Also it is really important in my opinion that people can play with their friends if they wish to form their own team. However, I will try my best to put the remaining players who do not have a team in groups with as equal MMR as I can. This is also another reason why I would like people to supply me with their starlog.gg profiles.
On November 29 2017 06:27 HaN- wrote: Fuck my MMR is too high for this T_T
On November 29 2017 08:39 FlaShFTW wrote: wait cap at 1800 mmr? I definitely feel like I'm a mid-skilled player but peaked at 2k mmr a few months ago when i actually played.
This is really a delicate predicament for me. Before making this thread, I was brainstorming what went wrong and what went right with my last league and for sure the most disliked parts of RTL1 was allowing stronger players into the league and also allowing B and above players enter with an offrace, so I wanted to be super careful to not reintroduce that experience for this league. I asked a few people on discord and on my battle.net friends list whom I regarded as decently strong players who could compete with me about their peak MMR and some of them floated around 2k. I was previously B rank on ICCup, and I do not want to have B ranked players in this league. Subsequently I had a conversation with people on discord moments ago that it is really hard to use MMR as a metric for skill as it is just wildly inaccurate in its current form. After talking to several people, I am moving it to a soft cap of 2k - but I will still require starlog.gg profiles.
Basically, I am aiming for an ICCup "C" or below teamleague. If you're a previous B ranked ICCup user, if you can take games off the stronger foreigners (ie. Dandy, Dewalt, Bonyth, Eon, Trutacz, Ty2), and if you able to compete and put up a good record in other leagues with strong players like PATL, SKTL, or BWCL, this league isn't for you. That is basically what I'm trying to avoid in this league. This Sunday, I'm finalizing the poll choices and I'm setting everything in stone.
I understand. I was never B, hell even C rank on iccup (the latter mostly due to lack of ladder games, the former mostly because I wasn't good enough). So I got to 2k and people were saying it was around B rank which was why I was surprised.
On November 29 2017 12:38 GGMrTea wrote: how is 2k mmr "mid-skilled". It is literally the lowest league.
2k is in the top 3% of all players. That's pretty respectable, especially considering a sizeable portion of that comes from KR accounts. It's easily top 1% or better of all non KR players. On West that has you ranked almost in the top 500.
Alright listen up scrubs, MMR is silly because who you play is wholly determined on location, ping, and hour of day. A person playing from Taiwan at 10 PM Korean time is going to have a shitty time trying to get 1800. As a frequent drunkard in NA on the East coast who played at 1 PM Korean time doing all-ins and dumb shit, I got to around 2000. Apparently some people are saying it was easier to move up in MMR over the summer than it is now, which sort of makes sense I guess. Let's not forget the whole double wins/double losses, disconnect not counting, and whatever other issues have been fucking with players since release.
TL;DR: MMR is a dumb metric and there doesn't really even exist a decent metric to scale people. Even H2H results are subjective af because Lumix is supposed to be garbage at any non-TvZ match-up, for example. Name value also don't mean shit as there are probably a hundred thousand unknown players out there who don't have TL accounts who could whoop my ass to Seoul and back and if ~C is the maximum rank for this league (based on another broken-ass metric) then I wouldn't be eligible even though last season I only managed to win a small handful of games and was probably below the mid-tier of skill.
Also, never forget:
EDIT: Oh okay I didn't see that you also said that MMR was a shitty rating scale @Faust. I also can't find the account I played with over the summer and subsequently deleted to make room for this one (tinyurl for clantag):
So far everyone who has posted can enter. I think not allowing stronger players into the league with offraces will be a huge improvement in itself. Everyone who posted so far would qualify, in my image, as a maximum mid skilled player. Rather than just ask, everyone who feels like they meet or are close to the criteria should enter without hesitation (although supplying your starlog.gg profile is still required) and if there is a problem I will bring it up to you.
As others have pointed out in the thread, the ICCUP ranks and MMR are not very good representation of skill levels. Another way is to look at recent skill capped leagues like the (D-rank leagues, CPL etc...)
On November 30 2017 02:21 xccam wrote: " What 3v3 map do you prefer? Other please specify in thread" Team Melee - honestly the best part of season one.
I wanted to include it pretty badly, and even had Seriosity and Radivel test other game modes with me to possibly replace team melee (even though they proved to be way less fun) and ultimately decided against it. Main reason was because I do want to have the whole cast set, but another strong reason is team melee was broken with the release of 1.18 and I am not sure how stable it is in its current form because to my knowledge patch notes have never addressed fixing it.
Originally even though 1.18 came out, the last few weeks of RTL was played on 1.16.1. One of these reasons was because team melee didn't allow you to pick all the races in the slots, which meant I couldn't enforce the rule that each team could not mix workers from different races. Second reason is team melee randomly crashed. I didn't test it again until SC:R release and noticed that they fixed the fact that you can pick all races in all 4 slots of a team, but it still randomly crashed.
Whether that is still true or not, I cannot say, but I just feel really hesitant to put it in because of that.
VOTE IN THE POLLS - All polls will be closed this Sunday. At this time the league will take it's final shape. A time and the format will be completely decided. I have added a team melee poll so please be sure to re-check the OP. I will be testing team melee these next two days with some friends to make sure there will be no crashes or bugs.
PLAYER LIST UPDATED - Please be sure to check the second post of the thread if you are forming a team or looking for a team. The complete player list of interested players is there along with their information. I am displaying peak MMR mostly for myself to see the average MMR of people entering the tournament and to form balanced teams for people who do not have teams before the league starts.
DISCORD - The RTL discord will be up by early next week after I close the polls and have the date/time of the league set, as well as the rules and format set in stone. It is not a requirement but it will be purely for organization as I realize this topic is a bit confusing to most people who have not played in RTL1. If you are confused with how this league is going to play out, be sure to check out The Original RTL Thread so you can see how this league will be run similarly.
Demurity please come to my office with your starlog.gg report card.
Also iopq: I'll put Momo as a team if the other guys are interested. I'd be happy to see old teams rejoin.
On December 01 2017 01:02 iopq wrote: Why are there so many team games, though? We were so shit at 3v3, we're going to lose 2v2 as well I think.
Friends who play together, stay together. Also no offraces from stronger players so I think there will be less ridiculous stomps in team games this season. Not to mention that Momo vs TTZPP on BGH was possibly the most entertaining game of the whole season (maybe poetic vs yummy on medusa was better)
On November 30 2017 18:53 SCC-Faust wrote: Captain's Log, Stardate: November 30th, 2017.
[inhales] Just a short update.
VOTE IN THE POLLS - All polls will be closed this Sunday. At this time the league will take it's final shape. A time and the format will be completely decided. I have added a team melee poll so please be sure to re-check the OP. I will be testing team melee these next two days with some friends to make sure there will be no crashes or bugs.
PLAYER LIST UPDATED - Please be sure to check the second post of the thread if you are forming a team or looking for a team. The complete player list of interested players is there along with their information. I am displaying peak MMR mostly for myself to see the average MMR of people entering the tournament and to form balanced teams for people who do not have teams before the league starts.
DISCORD - The RTL discord will be up by early next week after I close the polls and have the date/time of the league set, as well as the rules and format set in stone. It is not a requirement but it will be purely for organization as I realize this topic is a bit confusing to most people who have not played in RTL1. If you are confused with how this league is going to play out, be sure to check out The Original RTL Thread so you can see how this league will be run similarly.
Demurity please come to my office with your starlog.gg report card.
Also iopq: I'll put Momo as a team if the other guys are interested. I'd be happy to see old teams rejoin.
Any time I put my name into starlog, it keeps going to Bad Gateway... Here it is anyway... just look my name up on starlog manually and it comes up, I just can't link it.
To preface: Hey guys, I along with the SCC team would like to inform you all that as of now, I am assuming the position of being the official go-between for you guys and the RTL leadership. If you guys have any questions about anything, grievances to express, or suggestions please feel free to hit me up. Additionally, with SCC-Faust I intend to assist with avoiding any further negative feelings about the way the league is being managed. I intend to do this by having an open and ongoing dialogue with team leaders/managers to avoid seemingly unilateral decision making going forward. I obviously can't guarantee total capitulation to every individual complaint, but will make sure the opinions of the community and participants are factored in when decisions are being made. I also will to the best of my abilities keep you guys informed of any ideas or changes that may be made AHEAD of their implementation, so your thoughts and impressions can be taken into account and considered as part of the decision making process. To Demurity
Hi Demurity / Hey Dem (whatever you're more comfortable with) Hey. I'm sorry, but I can't let you play in my league, but I wish I could. The unfortunate thing is that you'd be by far and away the best player here, and that skill level isn't what this league is intended to cater to. I feel like that if I let you in, then not only would it be unfair to everyone else involved, but I know that I'd have to approve more than just you at this skill level, because it'd be unfair to everyone else as well, and I can't open that can o worms. Hopefully next time, people will all be a little better players and you can play then. PM me if you want to talk!
But seriously, I hate saying no to people. I enjoyed having you in the first RTL a lot and you were a player who always showed up, gave good games, displayed good manners, and contributed a positive experience to the league. It is really difficult for me to gauge everyone's skill level and find a line to cut people off, so this was a hard decision for me. People in discord called SCC-Faust a pussy for making a deal about finding the correct way to post this, which is why he hired me.
On December 01 2017 03:24 SCC-Faustina wrote: To preface: Hey guys, I along with the SCC team would like to inform you all that as of now, I am assuming the position of being the official go-between for you guys and the RTL leadership. If you guys have any questions about anything, grievances to express, or suggestions please feel free to hit me up. Additionally, with SCC-Faust I intend to assist with avoiding any further negative feelings about the way the league is being managed. I intend to do this by having an open and ongoing dialogue with team leaders/managers to avoid seemingly unilateral decision making going forward. I obviously can't guarantee total capitulation to every individual complaint, but will make sure the opinions of the community and participants are factored in when decisions are being made. I also will to the best of my abilities keep you guys informed of any ideas or changes that may be made AHEAD of their implementation, so your thoughts and impressions can be taken into account and considered as part of the decision making process. To Demurity
Hi Demurity / Hey Dem (whatever you're more comfortable with) Hey. I'm sorry, but I can't let you play in my league, but I wish I could. The unfortunate thing is that you'd be by far and away the best player here, and that skill level isn't what this league is intended to cater to. I feel like that if I let you in, then not only would it be unfair to everyone else involved, but I know that I'd have to approve more than just you at this skill level, because it'd be unfair to everyone else as well, and I can't open that can o worms. Hopefully next time, people will all be a little better players and you can play then. PM me if you want to talk!
But seriously, I hate saying no to people. I enjoyed having you in the first RTL a lot and you were a player who always showed up, gave good games, displayed good manners, and contributed a positive experience to the league. It is really difficult for me to gauge everyone's skill level and find a line to cut people off, so this was a hard decision for me. People in discord called SCC-Faust a pussy for making a deal about finding the correct way to post this, which is why he hired me.
Oh absolutely faustina, no problem at all. I didnt expect to actually play, I figured I could just be on a team. Just threw my name into the hat to participate. No biggie. This leagues gonna be great, gl on getting good participation!
On December 01 2017 03:24 SCC-Faustina wrote: To preface: Hey guys, I along with the SCC team would like to inform you all that as of now, I am assuming the position of being the official go-between for you guys and the RTL leadership. If you guys have any questions about anything, grievances to express, or suggestions please feel free to hit me up. Additionally, with SCC-Faust I intend to assist with avoiding any further negative feelings about the way the league is being managed. I intend to do this by having an open and ongoing dialogue with team leaders/managers to avoid seemingly unilateral decision making going forward. I obviously can't guarantee total capitulation to every individual complaint, but will make sure the opinions of the community and participants are factored in when decisions are being made. I also will to the best of my abilities keep you guys informed of any ideas or changes that may be made AHEAD of their implementation, so your thoughts and impressions can be taken into account and considered as part of the decision making process. To Demurity
Hi Demurity / Hey Dem (whatever you're more comfortable with) Hey. I'm sorry, but I can't let you play in my league, but I wish I could. The unfortunate thing is that you'd be by far and away the best player here, and that skill level isn't what this league is intended to cater to. I feel like that if I let you in, then not only would it be unfair to everyone else involved, but I know that I'd have to approve more than just you at this skill level, because it'd be unfair to everyone else as well, and I can't open that can o worms. Hopefully next time, people will all be a little better players and you can play then. PM me if you want to talk!
But seriously, I hate saying no to people. I enjoyed having you in the first RTL a lot and you were a player who always showed up, gave good games, displayed good manners, and contributed a positive experience to the league. It is really difficult for me to gauge everyone's skill level and find a line to cut people off, so this was a hard decision for me. People in discord called SCC-Faust a pussy for making a deal about finding the correct way to post this, which is why he hired me.
Oh absolutely faustina, no problem at all. I didnt expect to actually play, I figured I could just be on a team. Just threw my name into the hat to participate. No biggie. This leagues gonna be great, gl on getting good participation!
Maybe you should be a coach, like what seriosity is doing.
I'm glad to see a decent league around here again. I would love to participate.
I haven't played at all since the CPL and I'm sure I am terrible (not that I was any good before; just mean I'm even worse now!). I don't even have a username on battle.net. And I think someone stole my name.
Do I have to create one first and then post it here?
Also I am Protoss and have no team. I am willing to join anyone's team that wants someone to beat up on.
I missed all you guys and have been very busy with work but I would like to start playing on weekends again and join this league.
Finally, Faust I love you. And I want everyone to know it.
On December 01 2017 09:57 evilEye_ wrote: Hello to all.
I'm glad to see a decent league around here again. I would love to participate.
I haven't played at all since the CPL and I'm sure I am terrible (not that I was any good before; just mean I'm even worse now!). I don't even have a username on battle.net. And I think someone stole my name.
Do I have to create one first and then post it here?
Also I am Protoss and have no team. I am willing to join anyone's team that wants someone to beat up on.
I missed all you guys and have been very busy with work but I would like to start playing on weekends again and join this league.
Finally, Faust I love you. And I want everyone to know it.
As your previous CPL coach (lol) you don't have to anything. You good my man.
On December 01 2017 09:57 evilEye_ wrote: Hello to all.
I'm glad to see a decent league around here again. I would love to participate.
I haven't played at all since the CPL and I'm sure I am terrible (not that I was any good before; just mean I'm even worse now!). I don't even have a username on battle.net. And I think someone stole my name.
Do I have to create one first and then post it here?
Also I am Protoss and have no team. I am willing to join anyone's team that wants someone to beat up on.
I missed all you guys and have been very busy with work but I would like to start playing on weekends again and join this league.
Finally, Faust I love you. And I want everyone to know it.
If you're looking for an unreliable player who probably wont show much because life is too busy, but if has the time to play will absolutely prep some insane build order for my match, you can sign me up lol.
Updated player list. Reminder to vote in the polls at the bottom of the OP please. They are all close to being split 50/50 so I want as many players to voice their opinions as possible so the decisions can become more clear to me by Sunday night.
Still have two people that I may add to the open player list that have given me their starlog.gg but they are definitely at the higher end of the skill cap so if this applies to you, I haven't forgotten, it is just something I need to think about.
Edit: If you are so inclined, I have the barebones of the discord made here: https://discord.gg/kzPqkWh It is far from finished, but I had some friends help me test out role restrictions and it will be filled out nicely by Sunday/Monday. Team tags are in-place and I used some inspiration from the PATL/SKTL discord to get ideas. It is not mandatory to join the discord at all, but I will be using it along with the this thread to equally share info regarding results, rosters, and weekly match-ups. The rules will be refined and removed when the league starts to get rid of all the clutter in the OP as I did so in season 1 and be put solely on the wiki and a discord channel.
The discord will be minimalistic and only feature three chat channels: a general discussion for league-related talk, a team-coordination channel where you will have the ability to ping teams by their tag if you would like to try and arrange sets before the scheduled time, and each team will have their own team-channel and voice channel that is only visible to people with that team tag. These are not at all required to be used and if your team wants to make their own discord, I highly encourage that. These channels will also be 100% invisible to other teams so they will not be able to even see them, let alone look in them. I'm trying to figure out a way to remove my access to them as I don't really want to be able to see in these channels myself, but I am not sure if this is possible as the server owner.
Oh, one more thing I wanted to mention, I know the OP is a bit confusing at the moment, but if you're confused or hesitant to enter, don't be. Just wing it. I will help you and explain everything as best I can for anything that appears confusing.
Please add me, dm-white (even though I didn't ask him but who cares he's fuckin protoss and white is right), and cadenza (sorry faust) to Fazer's team.
On December 02 2017 15:37 Dazed. wrote: I'd like to sign up if any team would have me. 1900 as a zerg, but I'd like to play as a terran, and im only like 1600-1700 for terran.
FUCK YOU LUMIX - I told LuMiX I was thinking about his entry to the league because he is certainly a strong player and he forms a team anyways. Now that I have said no to people, I have to respect them by treating everyone in an equal manner and be prepared to say no when using my best judgment. He gave me starlog's that are definitely aligned with my views of someone who can enter the league, but MMR is not the only metric I'm using when allowing people in (He rests at 2037 with a 55% winrate over 250 games on one account and 1971 with a 58% winrate over 120 games). I will allow LuMiX in along with his team in, but you guys will be (temporarily) dubbed team GIR. + Show Spoiler +
FORMAT IS ALMOST DECIDED - Had a lengthy discussion with people in the RTL discord and a lot of good ideas came up. Seriosity and Radivel gave me a bunch of really good suggestions and the format is going to be altered a bit from its current form. Ace match is being removed, a 1v1 set is going to be added (for a total of 3 1v1s), and we will be setting the league up in a swiss-system for two reasons:
It better aligns with an 8 week league where it is possible not all teams may play against one another.
It meets my views on how a league that has a skill ceiling cut-off should be played (teams with equal skill will be put against each other each week according to records)
LEAGUE RULES FINALIZED TOMORROW - Polls will be closed and the OP will be drastically changed tomorrow so I advise everyone check it out to familiarize themselves with the league rules. These will be set in stone.
On December 02 2017 19:19 Chrh wrote: [red]lumix is literally 20-0 2150 on ladder
He is someone I didn't immediately say yes to, but this is my thought process from the decision I have made -
His highest MMR accounts with strong winrates were played at an earlier time in SC:R ladder, which was pretty much inarguably easier to hit higher MMRs for foreigners because of a larger population of foreign players (I personally peaked around 2400 in September with a strong winrate, and now I'm struggling to hold 2300)
As stated above, his current accounts are at: 2037 with a 55% winrate over 250 games on one account and 1971 with a 58% winrate over 120 games. I think these should hold more weight than an account that he hasn't laddered on in months.
LuMiX, iopq, and CadenZie are definitely the frontrunners of the tournament in skill level and people I all have taken into heavy consideration. One of the ways in how I decide if a player may enter is I took a list of my perceived strongest players who entered RTL 1, and compare the entrants to those players (Lumire, Demurity, Splax, sero, etc) and I feel like so far nobody who has entered can maintain decent win records vs these players.
Also out of respect for the players, if there is a problem with how people feel about someone who has been allowed entrance, please PM me and we can talk about it. I promise I am trying my best to be fair to everyone who is entering.
Honestly I think if this is a team it's going to be very hard for any other team to ever beat them.
You have arguably 4 of the best possible players in the league in this one team o_o
Hello, Faustina here! *curtsy*
Although I was not given the starlog.gg page for most people in seriOsity's team, I am familiar with a lot of them from CPL and their general skill level. With all the starlog's I have been given for LuMiX's team, the players averaged at:
1891 Current MMR (Average of 132 games per account) The criteria used was up to two starlog profiles used for each player with the most recent games. Some of these were sent to me in private, but I can assure you the players themselves can attest that is would be an accurate number. Everyone who currently has their name on the second post of this topic is in the league, and there will be no decisions to remove or split players up. I promise I take everyone who enters into consideration seriously, and Lumix/Demurity are two players who I spent more than a day thinking about. I don't want any player or team to feel bad for entering though, so I ask if anyone has serious problems or inquiries about who I have let in and who I have not, to PM me or SCC-Faust. To expand on my philosophy, read below!
RTL1 and RTL2 have the same philosophy, and they are, in order of importance:
Enjoyment - Above all, this league is intended to be for fun. Being able to pick your teams and play with your friends is something I value highly for this league. It was something well received in the first RTL, and playing among familiar faces (especially in a league with two sets of team games) is more motivating and less frustrating. Although you can argue that going against stronger teams will take away enjoyment for some players, it is something ultimately unpreventable. However, I do have things in place that will vastly improve skill discrepancies than the original RTL1 had such as:
Disallowing stronger players from entering with an off-race.
A better suited format (swiss-style) where teams with equal or similar records will face off each week.
A more accurate vetting system than last season to gauge entrant skill levels.
And more!
Ease of Use and Simplification - This is something I have tried my best in RTL1, and something I will be continuing to do in RTL2 with what I've learned from my experiences. No line-ups required, no complex rules to follow, and no extreme coordination needed from teams. A lot of mistakes were made in the beginning of the original RTL, but I quickly learned what helps a league become successful: being simple. Teams are able to have the players they want, in the amount they want, and can show up with whoever has the opportunity to do so on play day. I will also personally intervene and help set up teams with open players rather than throw them out if they cannot find a team before the cut-off date (to be announced tomorrow) and give them the personal information of their teammates. Also, teams that break apart or do not show for the first week or two will be replaced. I will do my best to ensure that I am not putting too much responsibility on teams and team leaders, and when a team does not meet halfway, I, as a tournament organizer, will go the extra mile.
Putting a Skill Ceiling - Although this is third on my list, I still regard it as important. It is always going to be a highly debated topic and it is simply impossible to do this without someone having a disagreement with the players who have been accepted and entered into the league. Everyone will have different perceptions of players' skill levels, even me, as the person making the decisions in who can enter and who cannot. There is no perfect way to do this, but I am using my best ability to allow players in the league who fit my personal criteria (which I aligned in the OP) with three methods:
MMR - Although, as many have said, this is not a great judge of skill level, it is the best we have when I can compare hard numbers between players. I am aware some players do not ladder as much as others, and some perform better on ladder. Unfortunately, this is what we have, and this is the main driving force between my decisions.
General Opinion - I have talked to and asked how people would rank players that enter this league among other entrants and this is also something I highly value. In some cases, I put this above MMR.
My Opinion - Finally, from players I have personally witnessed in other leagues (RTL1, CPL, DRIT, CFC, TLOpen) as well as players I regard as friends and am familiar with their skill, I use this as a metric as well.
On December 02 2017 15:37 Dazed. wrote: I'd like to sign up if any team would have me. 1900 as a zerg, but I'd like to play as a terran, and im only like 1600-1700 for terran.
Edited the OP and finishing up everything to make it final today. There is a tie between the scheduled time so please vote in this poll if you haven't already. I'm closing it by tonight before I go to sleep and the winning time will be the official time of the league.
Poll: What preferred time are you available to play on Sundays?
Everything should be up to date on the player list and discord for now.
My plans for tomorrow involve making another reddit post and a post on Blizzard forums to reach out to players who are not part of the Teamliquid community who may want to participate (with probably a more easier explanation of how to enter and play). I also want to contact some people who have left me PMs about casting. If I haven't responded to you but you messaged me about casting, I did not forget about you. I still want to make casting a large part of this league. Not that I want anything fancy, or am requiring anything in particular from people who want to cast this (In fact, I loved how laid back the casts were of the first league and the fact that people offered to guest cast), but I want it to be just as organized and important as the matches themselves and put on the teamliquid calendar so people may watch it at a set time or catch the vods without any confusion or missing a beat.
On December 04 2017 12:33 castleeMg wrote: can i sign up as a free agent and as terran in this league? my mmr as terran is 1900-2000
Unfortunately I'm not allowing offraces from players who are too strong for this league because it was so disliked in the first RTL I hosted that people posted their displeasure with it more than the actual league itself, and the 36 pages of the thread ended up being more than half about purely complaining and memes about how teams kept power creeping because I allowed that. I do want to run a league like this in the future if this works out for higher skilled players though, as I've burnt myself out from playing SC:R for now, but I am passionate about hosting events and want to pursue hosting them hopefully more than just this league.
im gonna try to get a team for eMg but ill just organize, not play. any players interested in playing for eMg pls communicate here for easiest convenience --> https://discord.gg/qhcfTwZ
Updated OP. Gladstone, you're good. I'll add you to lumix's team when he submits it instead of putting you to open players.
Also for teams (especially team leaders) who haven't joined the discord, do so when you get a chance. For people who haven't gotten a PM back from me or haven't been added yet, I'm still working some things out.
I would like to register my team (con]) which is playing bwcl right now. But only the players below 2100 MMR. Is that possible? Majority of my team is below 2k MMR. I personally would love to play too but i cannot ladder properly because of error 6:10.... in bwcl i was able to beat a 1900 guy but i frequently lose to people at 2000-2100.
On December 09 2017 18:13 TaShadan wrote: I would like to register my team (con]) which is playing bwcl right now. But only the players below 2100 MMR. Is that possible? Majority of my team is below 2k MMR. I personally would love to play too but i cannot ladder properly because of error 6:10.... in bwcl i was able to beat a 1900 guy but i frequently lose to people at 2000-2100.
Yes this is allowed. Also as far as players above 2100 MMR, I'm doing it on a case-by-case basis.
I would submit them anyways and give them the same chance I have given everyone else.
On December 09 2017 18:13 TaShadan wrote: I would like to register my team (con]) which is playing bwcl right now. But only the players below 2100 MMR. Is that possible? Majority of my team is below 2k MMR. I personally would love to play too but i cannot ladder properly because of error 6:10.... in bwcl i was able to beat a 1900 guy but i frequently lose to people at 2000-2100.
Yes this is allowed. Also as far as players above 2100 MMR, I'm doing it on a case-by-case basis.
I would submit them anyways and give them the same chance I have given everyone else.
I will be updating everything and sending out messages tomorrow. I apologize for the delay, I get lazy on weekends.
Remember that the 15th is the last day to sign up. Also for anyone worried, the first week takes place on the 17th and then there will be a large holiday break, so week 2 will actually not start until the 7th of January, so three weeks later. Why did I do this? I don't know. But it is gonna be awesome so everyone can revel in how much fun they had in the first week and have a strong urge to do it again but I'll have to say NO!!! THREE MORE WEEKS!!!
On December 10 2017 23:40 SCC-Faust wrote: I will be updating everything and sending out messages tomorrow. I apologize for the delay, I get lazy on weekends.
Remember that the 15th is the last day to sign up. Also for anyone worried, the first week takes place on the 17th and then there will be a large holiday break, so week 2 will actually not start until the 7th of January, so three weeks later. Why did I do this? I don't know. But it is gonna be awesome so everyone can revel in how much fun they had in the first week and have a strong urge to do it again but I'll have to say NO!!! THREE MORE WEEKS!!!
ty for adding me to the clan list, u r a very nice man faust. : DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
On December 12 2017 01:44 Nikon wrote: Seal of approval. Is this going be be broadcasted/have vods?
Yes, every week will have a cast and a spot on the teamliquid calendar so everyone can know ahead of time and not miss it. It will be off replays but the results will be concealed (random teams will be assigned the team who sends replays so replay text in team-games won't give away results). I guess technically if anyone wants to stream a series live, that is completely up to them. It is basically a "if you want to do it, it is all yours" thing. Sort of similar to how PATL did it, because I thought that was a cool system where casters split up and casted what they wanted to. I do want to keep one main cast/time though for organizational reasons and so it is easier for people to catch it, which ninazerg will be doing.
I did get a ton of other people asking to cast, so if I didn't respond yet, I'm going to do that later tonight. I will hopefully have the matches themselves on the teamliquid calendar so if casters want to add their stream to that as the event unfolds live, that can work out. Not sure what the rules are on a calendar having a cast spot more than once for one event tho.
Also updated teams. Going to update players when I get home. No one has been forgotten, so worry not my friends.
When I get home from work I'm going to update the rosters and send out PMs.
Going to talk about quickly how the decisions are being made so no one is confused. Originally I was going to give people entering the OK or not if they fit in the skill range I had formed in my mind. I did this by checking their starlog, by asking friends who have played these players, and by using my own personal experience as guidance. This is not the current system anymore, and now works differently. This is how the current system works:
A discord channel is formed on the RTL discord server where team leaders and people I know who ladder a ton have a special role to give them access to said channel. Whenever a player with higher than normal MMR enters the league, I post their name along with their starlogs and give them a thumbs up/thumbs down emote. Everyone with access to the channel then proceeds to click on thumbs up (if they think they should be allowed in the league) and then thumbs down (if they think they shouldn't). Also text is disabled so there is no discussions taking place that could change people's opinions.
People who I personally gave the okay to before I implemented this are still going to be allowed to play as I find it rude to say yes to someone, and then proceed to tell them no. Also I do not feel anyone I let in before this system outclasses the rest of the league to a ridiculous degree. After LuMiX and others have come to me telling me they feel teams are too strong, I decided this would be the best way to meet common ground. I host a league with a general idea in mind of how I want the skill to be set, and then I have a collection of players who vote on who may enter or not.
The benefits to such system are:
Less personal bias - The people voting on entrants is wide and has leaders and players from all different teams. Chat is disabled as well. This allows people to vote with their true opinions.
No power creeping teams - Teams will have a harder time stacking players with said system in place where it is hard for an individual to say no when a player is borderline meeting the skill ceiling, but a group may have a vested interest in voting against stronger teams fielding stronger players throughout.
Fairness - Having multiple opinions in a voting fashion call the shots allows more people to weigh their opinions. This is a lot better than having me gauge skills and compare them and make unfair decisions because of my inability to properly place people together with the current data I have (starlogs, etc).
Less bitching - Instead of having 30 pages of this thread be spawned by entrant issues like last RTL, this system is a lot more fair than just one person calling all the shots. Now if someone takes issue with a decision, it is not something they can appeal to just me, but they have to understand that this was voted on by team leaders and members of the league en masse.
Obviously the downside is everyone has a vested interest in keeping strong players out, so although that is a benefit, it is also a drawback. From common reception though, it seemed that people took issue with the stronger players I was letting in the league, so on the other hand it might actually be a silver lining all-in-all. Also something to understand is (and I've mentioned this before) that it is difficult and borderline retarded to make a tournament with a skill ceiling (esp with the playerbase numbers of SC:R) so nothing is perfect. There will be decisions made that will not look fair to everyone. The bottom line is, at this point, we're doing the best we can. And hopefully no one takes any decision personally, as I promise no one intends to hurt anyone through this or be mean.
I have a current list of 7 or so players that have gone through this process and I'm going to be adding them to the league if they passed, or send them a PM if they did not. Also, I will not be making posts about whether specific people have made it in or not and discourage any posts about people who are eligible or not as I do not want to spawn drama, cause feelings to be hurt, or let this topic run off its course. So I ask everyone do the same. Also I made this post because if you appeal to me in this thread or take issue with a decision that was made, I'm not responding and now you know why.
On December 13 2017 02:23 SCC-Faust wrote: When I get home from work I'm going to update the rosters and send out PMs.
Going to talk about quickly how the decisions are being made so no one is confused. Originally I was going to give people entering the OK or not if they fit in the skill range I had formed in my mind. I did this by checking their starlog, by asking friends who have played these players, and by using my own personal experience as guidance. This is not the current system anymore, and now works differently. This is how the current system works:
A discord channel is formed on the RTL discord server where team leaders and people I know who ladder a ton have a special role to give them access to said channel. Whenever a player with higher than normal MMR enters the league, I post their name along with their starlogs and give them a thumbs up/thumbs down emote. Everyone with access to the channel then proceeds to click on thumbs up (if they think they should be allowed in the league) and then thumbs down (if they think they shouldn't). Also text is disabled so there is no discussions taking place that could change people's opinions.
People who I personally gave the okay to before I implemented this are still going to be allowed to play as I find it rude to say yes to someone, and then proceed to tell them no. Also I do not feel anyone I let in before this system outclasses the rest of the league to a ridiculous degree. After LuMiX and others have come to me telling me they feel teams are too strong, I decided this would be the best way to meet common ground. I host a league with a general idea in mind of how I want the skill to be set, and then I have a collection of players who vote on who may enter or not.
The benefits to such system are:
Less personal bias - The people voting on entrants is wide and has leaders and players from all different teams. Chat is disabled as well. This allows people to vote with their true opinions.
No power creeping teams - Teams will have a harder time stacking players with said system in place where it is hard for an individual to say no when a player is borderline meeting the skill ceiling, but a group may have a vested interest in voting against stronger teams fielding stronger players throughout.
Fairness - Having multiple opinions in a voting fashion call the shots allows more people to weigh their opinions. This is a lot better than having me gauge skills and compare them and make unfair decisions because of my inability to properly place people together with the current data I have (starlogs, etc).
Less bitching - Instead of having 30 pages of this thread be spawned by entrant issues like last RTL, this system is a lot more fair than just one person calling all the shots. Now if someone takes issue with a decision, it is not something they can appeal to just me, but they have to understand that this was voted on by team leaders and members of the league en masse.
Obviously the downside is everyone has a vested interest in keeping strong players out, so although that is a benefit, it is also a drawback. From common reception though, it seemed that people took issue with the stronger players I was letting in the league, so on the other hand it might actually be a silver lining all-in-all. Also something to understand is (and I've mentioned this before) that it is difficult and borderline retarded to make a tournament with a skill ceiling (esp with the playerbase numbers of SC:R) so nothing is perfect. There will be decisions made that will not look fair to everyone. The bottom line is, at this point, we're doing the best we can. And hopefully no one takes any decision personally, as I promise no one intends to hurt anyone through this or be mean.
I have a current list of 7 or so players that have gone through this process and I'm going to be adding them to the league if they passed, or send them a PM if they did not. Also, I will not be making posts about whether specific people have made it in or not and discourage any posts about people who are eligible or not as I do not want to spawn drama, cause feelings to be hurt, or let this topic run off its course. So I ask everyone do the same. Also I made this post because if you appeal to me in this thread or take issue with a decision that was made, I'm not responding and now you know why.
I demand to let the people decide my fate. Thumbs up im in, thumbs down and im out. WHAT SAY YOU?!
edit: Shit i forgot to change accounts, this is Demurity btw. Im not in the league currently
LOL nice dude. And that is actually a good point. People I've personally said no to, I'll re-run them through this process.
And btw you had access to this channel but I'm going to temporarily remove it until people vote on you. After voting is done I'll give you back access.
On December 13 2017 03:49 iRk-AGge wrote: Oh, so too late for iRk- then. :/
You still have 3 days. You guys may enter. Also if there is an issue with you being able to submit a roster before the end of the 15th, we can talk and work something out.
On December 13 2017 03:37 SCC-Faust wrote: LOL nice dude. And that is actually a good point. People I've personally said no to, I'll re-run them through this process.
And btw you had access to this channel but I'm going to temporarily remove it until people vote on you. After voting is done I'll give you back access.
On December 13 2017 03:37 SCC-Faust wrote: LOL nice dude. And that is actually a good point. People I've personally said no to, I'll re-run them through this process.
And btw you had access to this channel but I'm going to temporarily remove it until people vote on you. After voting is done I'll give you back access.
Fair.
I had access to the discord channel? wut
Yah I probably should've said something but I added you, Ty2, sero, and Lumire to it since I figured you guys play a lot and know peoples skill better than most.
On December 13 2017 03:57 iRk-AGge wrote: Lovely! I'll check with our low ranked players if they want a league of their own.
I'll be back in a day!
Does iRk-Fedor still play? That dude had JD level Muta control back in 2003 lol.
I remember Fedor, I actually talked to him not long ago, I think he is still playing actually just not very active anymore
Is this same guy as npnl.fedor from like 5-6 years ago? Dude was a pretty decent zerg iirc, streamed alot and started a clan.
I'm not too sure if that's him but I remember all the iRk- guys from Europe server. Most of them were pretty damn good back in the day. iRk-Fedor always stood out to me because he had 350+ apm and SICK muta control before anyone was even stacking mutas.
You do a starlog on every player? then I guess I get a list of the players who fit the bill. But if Ty2 is legitimate to play, then I assume all my players are as well, no one in iRk is above him in mmr, and o_O lost to him in BWCL 0-2.
When it comes to iRk-Fedor, I havent really spoken to him since 2007. When MSN messenger got bought up by Skype, I lost contact with all former members from outside of europe that I didnt have on facebook allrdy. So if you see him, say Hi from me, and if he wishes to talk to me, I'm always in op iRk- on europe server.
You do a starlog on every player? then I guess I get a list of the players who fit the bill. But if Ty2 is legitimate to play, then I assume all my players are as well, no one in iRk is above him in mmr, and o_O lost to him in BWCL 0-2.
When it comes to iRk-Fedor, I havent really spoken to him since 2007. When MSN messenger got bought up by Skype, I lost contact with all former members from outside of europe that I didnt have on facebook allrdy. So if you see him, say Hi from me, and if he wishes to talk to me, I'm always in op iRk- on europe server.
Also Hi Endinglife, long time!
Ty2 is not eligible to play in this. Read the rules in the first post.
The cutoff usually ranges around 2100, and after a quick look at some of your member's on starlog, I'm guessing most of the list would qualify, but maybe a couple would need to be looked at further. When you can, gather and post all their starlog profiles, as well as their races so fausty can put them in the front page post all nice and pretty.
Faust I respect your wishes and being really professional about the PM but really? I barely play anymore and i've lost to several people on this list that you are letting play...
Like talent, castle, AOT, iopq, and a few others...
How are you letting them play when many of these people have taken games off of me? Pretty sure this is just a biased decision on your part, due to the past "grudge match" thing, right?
Also Edred, Talent, Wallace on the same team, and you are not letting me in the league, like really?
The most biased decision by a tournament organizer ever.
EDIT : "You're skill is viewed as being too high for this tournament"
Take a look at the players in the team list's, I can tell just by glancing that this league will be dominated by a few obvious teams, and you decide to not let me play as if I can't and haven't lost games to many of these people? Obvious biased decision for obvious reasons, good luck, the tournament results will show how right I am once you begin.
On December 14 2017 11:57 GGzerG wrote: Faust I respect your wishes and being really professional about the PM but really? I barely play anymore and i've lost to several people on this list that you are letting play...
Like talent, castle, AOT, iopq, and a few others...
How are you letting them play when many of these people have taken games off of me? Pretty sure this is just a biased decision on your part, due to the past "grudge match" thing, right?
Also Edred, Talent, Wallace on the same team, and you are not letting me in the league, like really?
The most biased decision by a tournament organizer ever.
EDIT : "You're skill is viewed as being too high for this tournament"
Take a look at the players in the team list's, I can tell just by glancing that this league will be dominated by a few obvious teams, and you decide to not let me play as if I can't and haven't lost games to many of these people? Obvious biased decision for obvious reasons, good luck, the tournament results will show how right I am once you begin.
gl hf gg
You almost beat Jaedong though... Seriously though, if all those listed above are allowed to play, you should be too.
If I am too good for this league, then why are Wallace, Talent, Edred, iopq allowed to play? I am like even w/l vs iopq or maybe even like 2-3 or something, if you want replays or you can elaborate better on why I am not permitted to play, then please do so, otherwise this is just complete and utter garbage bias, as if the BW Foreign scene is flooded with players right now, blah i'm done, but it is obvious that I am right.
How many people have to vouch for me before this was an obvious BS decision?
Faust's Rookie Team League is an absolute sham. The MMR "soft limit" of 1800 might as well be a minimum to enter. The term rookie has never been more misused in the history of foreign Brood War. This league exists to stroke the egos of foreigners who have literally been playing since the game's inception. The tournament is bound to be filled with a bunch of genuine rookies who will act as mere punching bags for these heavily experienced foreigners. Meanwhile they get to all make it to the final stages of the tournament, and enjoy the false satisfaction of placing highly. Don't even bother applying unless you genuinely enjoy stroking the egos of experienced players who have always lacked the motivation or desire to actually become high level.
Faust's Rookie Team League is an absolute sham. The MMR "soft limit" of 1800 might as well be a minimum to enter. The term rookie has never been more misused in the history of foreign Brood War. This league exists to stroke the egos of foreigners who have literally been playing since the game's inception. The tournament is bound to be filled with a bunch of genuine rookies who will act as mere punching bags for these heavily experienced foreigners. Meanwhile they get to all make it to the final stages of the tournament, and enjoy the false satisfaction of placing highly. Don't even bother applying unless you genuinely enjoy stroking the egos of experienced players who have always lacked the motivation or desire to actually become high level.
Faust's Rookie Team League is an absolute sham. The MMR "soft limit" of 1800 might as well be a minimum to enter. The term rookie has never been more misused in the history of foreign Brood War. This league exists to stroke the egos of foreigners who have literally been playing since the game's inception. The tournament is bound to be filled with a bunch of genuine rookies who will act as mere punching bags for these heavily experienced foreigners. Meanwhile they get to all make it to the final stages of the tournament, and enjoy the false satisfaction of placing highly. Don't even bother applying unless you genuinely enjoy stroking the egos of experienced players who have always lacked the motivation or desire to actually become high level.
On December 14 2017 12:20 GGzerG wrote: If I am too good for this league, then why are Wallace, Talent, Edred, iopq allowed to play? I am like even w/l vs iopq or maybe even like 2-3 or something, if you want replays or you can elaborate better on why I am not permitted to play, then please do so, otherwise this is just complete and utter garbage bias, as if the BW Foreign scene is flooded with players right now, blah i'm done, but it is obvious that I am right.
How many people have to vouch for me before this was an obvious BS decision?
You've lied about your skill so often to fit into a league, it's become comical.
If we go through your posting history, we will see evidence of you trying to sign up for:
D Rank Team League C Rank Team League Coach Pupil League
While also claiming a max rank of B.
So frankly, if I was an organizer for a league of this nature, I would absolutely not let you in, knowing that you will say whatever it takes to get your ass into this league, present whatever account suits your narrative, etc. So, it's easier to just let you off easy and give you that validation that "you're too good" and continue to justifiably ostracize you. Just my two cents.
On December 14 2017 13:20 JS-Bach wrote: Faust's Rookie Team League is an absolute sham. The MMR "soft limit" of 1800 might as well be a minimum to enter. The term rookie has never been more misused in the history of foreign Brood War. This league exists to stroke the egos of foreigners who have literally been playing since the game's inception. The tournament is bound to be filled with a bunch of genuine rookies who will act as mere punching bags for these heavily experienced foreigners. Meanwhile they get to all make it to the final stages of the tournament, and enjoy the false satisfaction of placing highly. Don't even bother applying unless you genuinely enjoy stroking the egos of experienced players who have always lacked the motivation or desire to actually become high level.
I was wondering for myself. I'd like to participate in such thing, but I play SC since 2002, so I can't really say that I'm rookie. I haven't played for ~7 years and am at MMR ~1700 right now - I most probably will be able to reach much higher MMR, however i have no time to practice.
On the other hand - there are already registered like tons of good players who will beat anyone at a 'rookie' level and joining the league makes no sense to me.
I've just had this thought process going on for the past week...
rookie ˈrʊki/Submit nouninformal a new recruit, especially in the army or police. e.g. "a rookie cop" a member of a sports team in their first full season.
I appreciate all the people who have shown interest in playing in RTL and I do not fault those who feel that this league is a bit misrepresented, but people have to realize this is a very old game with a small playerbase. These two issues spawn a lot of problems when trying to create a league for newer players. For one, it is difficult to form a league for newer players with really tight restraints because there isn't a large enough player pool to do so. Two, the game is so old, that most of the playerbase are people who have played for many years or are very familiar with how to play the game. This makes the perceived skill level of an "average" player a lot higher in the mind of someone just getting into StarCraft: Remastered.
People who feel that the range of skill for this league is not low enough for them, I understand that is their prerogative, and I support their decision to not play. There used to be a league that may be more in line with their desired skill level that is called "Coach/Pupil League" that was previously ran by L_Master and uses a "teaching" format. A large portion of the players who participated in that league are actually in Rookie Teamleague 2.
Also I feel as if the only problem with ego issues is not of the people who have entered, but rather the people who are not entering on the basis that they don't feel like they will be able to win enough. As someone who enters tournaments all the time when I know I have no chance (Clash for Chars / TL Opens), I can tell you it is literally as easy as clicking "register" and having a fun time. If losing bothers you that much, especially at a lower level, maybe you should find another way to invest your time that is less stressful for you.
On December 14 2017 12:20 GGzerG wrote: If I am too good for this league, then why are Wallace, Talent, Edred, iopq allowed to play? I am like even w/l vs iopq or maybe even like 2-3 or something, if you want replays or you can elaborate better on why I am not permitted to play, then please do so, otherwise this is just complete and utter garbage bias, as if the BW Foreign scene is flooded with players right now, blah i'm done, but it is obvious that I am right.
How many people have to vouch for me before this was an obvious BS decision?
You've lied about your skill so often to fit into a league, it's become comical.
If we go through your posting history, we will see evidence of you trying to sign up for:
D Rank Team League C Rank Team League Coach Pupil League
While also claiming a max rank of B.
So frankly, if I was an organizer for a league of this nature, I would absolutely not let you in, knowing that you will say whatever it takes to get your ass into this league, present whatever account suits your narrative, etc. So, it's easier to just let you off easy and give you that validation that "you're too good" and continue to justifiably ostracize you. Just my two cents.
Peoples skills change, and this little league was just for fun, your attempt to try to justify a BS ruling just makes you look like even more of a band wagoner, than you already appear to be, you ever think for yourself or just run around spamming your over sense of entitlement for no reason? Chat crafting hero
Peoples skills change, and this little league was just for fun, your attempt to try to justify a BS ruling just makes you look like even more of a band wagoner, than you already appear to be, you ever think for yourself or just run around spamming your over sense of entitlement for no reason? Chat crafting hero
He isn't even playing in the league and he was one of the people who took most issue with the rulings of the first league, so what you're saying makes literally no sense. Also I PM people because this thread really isn't for discussion, and it is distasteful to bring up names of people who were not allowed in without their permission.
Also if you or anyone else I said no to genuinely believes I'm being unfair or doing this from a place of bias or malice, please read the first Rookie Teamleague thread: HERE.The topic sits at 36 pages and over half of the posts are debates and discussion about how lax I was about player entry and skill level. It killed the enjoyment for a portion of players and some even stopped showing up because of how stacked the rosters became after each subsequent week. My only intention with doing this new system was to prevent that from happening again. I honestly do not want to say no to people and feel regret when I have to exclude people who show interest in something I specifically made for people to take interest in.
Peoples skills change, and this little league was just for fun, your attempt to try to justify a BS ruling just makes you look like even more of a band wagoner, than you already appear to be, you ever think for yourself or just run around spamming your over sense of entitlement for no reason? Chat crafting hero
He isn't even playing in the league and he was one of the people who took most issue with the rulings of the first league, so what you're saying makes literally no sense. Also I PM people because this thread really isn't for discussion, and it is distasteful to bring up names of people who were not allowed in without their permission.
Also if you or anyone else I said no to genuinely believes I'm being unfair or doing this from a place of bias or malice, please read the first Rookie Teamleague thread: HERE.The topic sits at 36 pages and over half of the posts are debates and discussion about how lax I was about player entry and skill level. It killed the enjoyment for a portion of players and some even stopped showing up because of how stacked the rosters became after each subsequent week. My only intention with doing this new system was to prevent that from happening again. I honestly do not want to say no to people and feel regret when I have to exclude people who show interest in something I specifically made for people to take interest in.
How about a grudge match, if I win I gain entry, if I lose then I’ll never sign up for another one of these amateur leagues again. Deal? ...
Especially since you told people I dodged you, let’s make this interesting.
Peoples skills change, and this little league was just for fun, your attempt to try to justify a BS ruling just makes you look like even more of a band wagoner, than you already appear to be, you ever think for yourself or just run around spamming your over sense of entitlement for no reason? Chat crafting hero
He isn't even playing in the league and he was one of the people who took most issue with the rulings of the first league, so what you're saying makes literally no sense. Also I PM people because this thread really isn't for discussion, and it is distasteful to bring up names of people who were not allowed in without their permission.
Also if you or anyone else I said no to genuinely believes I'm being unfair or doing this from a place of bias or malice, please read the first Rookie Teamleague thread: HERE.The topic sits at 36 pages and over half of the posts are debates and discussion about how lax I was about player entry and skill level. It killed the enjoyment for a portion of players and some even stopped showing up because of how stacked the rosters became after each subsequent week. My only intention with doing this new system was to prevent that from happening again. I honestly do not want to say no to people and feel regret when I have to exclude people who show interest in something I specifically made for people to take interest in.
How about a grudge match, if I win I gain entry, if I lose then I’ll never sign up for another one of these amateur leagues again. Deal? ...
Especially since you told people I dodged you, let’s make this interesting.
Just take the L man. Jeez people are fed up with you and Faust's beef. Take it to discord.
On December 14 2017 12:20 GGzerG wrote: If I am too good for this league, then why are Wallace, Talent, Edred, iopq allowed to play? I am like even w/l vs iopq or maybe even like 2-3 or something, if you want replays or you can elaborate better on why I am not permitted to play, then please do so, otherwise this is just complete and utter garbage bias, as if the BW Foreign scene is flooded with players right now, blah i'm done, but it is obvious that I am right.
How many people have to vouch for me before this was an obvious BS decision?
You've lied about your skill so often to fit into a league, it's become comical.
If we go through your posting history, we will see evidence of you trying to sign up for:
D Rank Team League C Rank Team League Coach Pupil League
While also claiming a max rank of B.
So frankly, if I was an organizer for a league of this nature, I would absolutely not let you in, knowing that you will say whatever it takes to get your ass into this league, present whatever account suits your narrative, etc. So, it's easier to just let you off easy and give you that validation that "you're too good" and continue to justifiably ostracize you. Just my two cents.
Peoples skills change, and this little league was just for fun, your attempt to try to justify a BS ruling just makes you look like even more of a band wagoner, than you already appear to be, you ever think for yourself or just run around spamming your over sense of entitlement for no reason? Chat crafting hero
You applied for the D and C leagues by LYING about your rank. That's not a change in skill. That's you intentionally trying to deceive organizers.
"you ever think for yourself or just run around spamming your over sense of entitlement for no reason"
Ignoring the fact that this is illegible garbage, name one thing that I said that was a repetition of what someone else said in this thread and was unoriginal? I brought an entirely new argument and perspective to the table. Just lol.
Peoples skills change, and this little league was just for fun, your attempt to try to justify a BS ruling just makes you look like even more of a band wagoner, than you already appear to be, you ever think for yourself or just run around spamming your over sense of entitlement for no reason? Chat crafting hero
He isn't even playing in the league and he was one of the people who took most issue with the rulings of the first league, so what you're saying makes literally no sense. Also I PM people because this thread really isn't for discussion, and it is distasteful to bring up names of people who were not allowed in without their permission.
Also if you or anyone else I said no to genuinely believes I'm being unfair or doing this from a place of bias or malice, please read the first Rookie Teamleague thread: HERE.The topic sits at 36 pages and over half of the posts are debates and discussion about how lax I was about player entry and skill level. It killed the enjoyment for a portion of players and some even stopped showing up because of how stacked the rosters became after each subsequent week. My only intention with doing this new system was to prevent that from happening again. I honestly do not want to say no to people and feel regret when I have to exclude people who show interest in something I specifically made for people to take interest in.
How about a grudge match, if I win I gain entry, if I lose then I’ll never sign up for another one of these amateur leagues again. Deal? ...
Especially since you told people I dodged you, let’s make this interesting.
"Hey bro let's fight, if I win then you have to take back what you said about me being too strong."
On December 14 2017 11:57 GGzerG wrote: Faust I respect your wishes and being really professional about the PM but really? I barely play anymore and i've lost to several people on this list that you are letting play...
Like talent, castle, AOT, iopq, and a few others...
How are you letting them play when many of these people have taken games off of me? Pretty sure this is just a biased decision on your part, due to the past "grudge match" thing, right?
Also Edred, Talent, Wallace on the same team, and you are not letting me in the league, like really?
The most biased decision by a tournament organizer ever.
EDIT : "You're skill is viewed as being too high for this tournament"
Take a look at the players in the team list's, I can tell just by glancing that this league will be dominated by a few obvious teams, and you decide to not let me play as if I can't and haven't lost games to many of these people? Obvious biased decision for obvious reasons, good luck, the tournament results will show how right I am once you begin.
gl hf gg
lmfao joey you're an avg player who does 2 gw every time in pvp its not hard to beat you lmao I don't think you've ever beaten me tbh.
On December 14 2017 13:34 ninazerg wrote: Faust's Rookie Team League is an absolute sham. The MMR "soft limit" of 1800 might as well be a minimum to enter. The term rookie has never been more misused in the history of foreign Brood War. This league exists to stroke the egos of foreigners who have literally been playing since the game's inception. The tournament is bound to be filled with a bunch of genuine rookies who will act as mere punching bags for these heavily experienced foreigners. Meanwhile they get to all make it to the final stages of the tournament, and enjoy the false satisfaction of placing highly. Don't even bother applying unless you genuinely enjoy stroking the egos of experienced players who have always lacked the motivation or desire to actually become high level.
On January 05 2012 05:45 GGzerG wrote: Rank: D ICCUP account: GGzerG Race: Match up player
EDIT : I would like to play on any team that is in need of a player
"EDIT 2 : I was intoxicated when I wrote this, read the OP wrong, I thought it was for teams with rank of D not all D rank players, my Bad."
If so, then where is the team name? Where is the "Team Rank?" Why do you have a "Race" for an entire team? On page 25 of the thread, where dozens of other had already applied? There was no ambiguity in OP. You were clearly just trying to save face.
On August 18 2012 05:53 GGzerG wrote: TL ID : GGzerG iCCup ID : [Name]Azizang Rating : 2500+ at the moment Race : All races ( P is Best, then T , then Z) Rank : C / C+ Other : I've played BW for 12+ years, recently Returning from SC2 back to BW, I am willing to heLp anyone learn, coach them and Practice vs them, to heLp both of us improve, but I LovE to heLp others improve. So if you WanT heLp , or just wanna play feel free to ask. Thanks.
On June 28 2013 13:20 GGzerG wrote: TL Name : GGzerG iCCup Name : Ever)P(TelecoM Race : Protoss Max rank : C+ Current rank : D CRTL Team : None
Didn't you say you hit B- before?
On June 29 2013 02:26 GGzerG wrote: I'm not really trying to lie just trying to avoid conflict , everyone would still complain and cry about not letting me play if I said I was B-, or saying im a liar and never hit B-, so in the end it makes more sense for me to just say I was C+ max rank since I haven't hit B- in 4-5 years, and regardless no one will be happy no matter what.
To the ones posting complaining about me signing up, I understand that if you hit me you will basically auto lose, but still lets just try to make the best out of this.
On July 03 2013 08:12 Birdie wrote: The issue isn't Telecom's skill, he's not very good so it's basically a free win if you can hold 9/9 gate. It's more that he said max rank C+ when before he said max rank B-.
On September 01 2013 18:09 GGzerG wrote: Well I guess it's time to unroll the red carpet.
iCCup ID : Ever)P(TelecoM Race : Random Rank : Max C+
On September 13 2013 21:27 GGzerG wrote: TL ID : GGzerG ICCup ID : Ever)P(TelecoM, ProtossUser Rank : Unranked Max : C+ Race : Random Time : EST Skype : TelecomRG
Just returning back to BW
On December 12 2013 19:45 CST GGzerG wrote: Name : Telecom Race : Protoss Max rank : C+ / B- Team in CRTL : Team 6
On May 29 2014 08:10 GGzerG wrote: Name : TelecoM iCCup ID : E.v)TelecoM Rank : C Race : Protoss
D (and C-) Ranks Individual Tournament 9
On December 29 2014 11:06 GGzerG wrote: iCCup : E.v)Telecom iccup aka's : E.v)Telecom Max rank : C- Race : Z
My Z is C-, I don't know if this is allowed, if not it's cool no problem, maybe if you need a replacement my terribad Zerg could help. :-p
On December 30 2014 11:46 GGzerG wrote: iCCup Username : E.v)TelecoM Most Likely Current iCCup Rank : C / C+ Race : Protoss
EDIT : Max Rank : B- = 6200 / 6300 Before SC2 was released with Protoss mostly cheesing every game.
On March 29 2017 13:28 GGzerG wrote: I'm GM in SC2 and B-B rank in BW and part of Ever BW still
On April 29 2017 20:17 GGzerG wrote: TL: GGzerG Bnet 1.18 fish : Ever)P(Telecom Rank : B Protoss, C Zerg, C+ Terran Race: any
Looking for practice partners on Fish / shield battery, can coach players as well, feel free to PM for help, will always help when I'm around.
On December 14 2017 13:34 ninazerg wrote: Faust's Rookie Team League is an absolute sham. The MMR "soft limit" of 1800 might as well be a minimum to enter. The term rookie has never been more misused in the history of foreign Brood War. This league exists to stroke the egos of foreigners who have literally been playing since the game's inception. The tournament is bound to be filled with a bunch of genuine rookies who will act as mere punching bags for these heavily experienced foreigners. Meanwhile they get to all make it to the final stages of the tournament, and enjoy the false satisfaction of placing highly. Don't even bother applying unless you genuinely enjoy stroking the egos of experienced players who have always lacked the motivation or desire to actually become high level.
Edit: fite me irl faust
lmaoooo this is too funny
So then why would I not be allowed to play LoL, I’m joking I don’t rly care about the GM, obvious funny if I win I get entrance lol
Haha, wish y’all the best of luck, just don’t mind exposing obvious BS.,, and yes I’ve beaten you several times beggar ;-) regardless, if I’m not allowed, several others shouldn’t be allowed either, if true skill / mmr is the cut off and not biased choice making, which is what’s happening now.
On December 14 2017 13:34 ninazerg wrote: Faust's Rookie Team League is an absolute sham. The MMR "soft limit" of 1800 might as well be a minimum to enter. The term rookie has never been more misused in the history of foreign Brood War. This league exists to stroke the egos of foreigners who have literally been playing since the game's inception. The tournament is bound to be filled with a bunch of genuine rookies who will act as mere punching bags for these heavily experienced foreigners. Meanwhile they get to all make it to the final stages of the tournament, and enjoy the false satisfaction of placing highly. Don't even bother applying unless you genuinely enjoy stroking the egos of experienced players who have always lacked the motivation or desire to actually become high level.
Edit: fite me irl faust
lmaoooo this is too funny
So then why would I not be allowed to play LoL, I’m joking I don’t rly care about the GM, obvious funny if I win I get entrance lol
Haha, wish y’all the best of luck, just don’t mind exposing obvious BS.,, and yes I’ve beaten you several times beggar ;-) regardless, if I’m not allowed, several others shouldn’t be allowed either, if true skill / mmr is the cut off and not biased choice making, which is what’s happening now.
Honestly you’re a bad player you should be able to play in this league you’re probabky 18-1900 not best
On December 14 2017 13:34 ninazerg wrote: Faust's Rookie Team League is an absolute sham. The MMR "soft limit" of 1800 might as well be a minimum to enter. The term rookie has never been more misused in the history of foreign Brood War. This league exists to stroke the egos of foreigners who have literally been playing since the game's inception. The tournament is bound to be filled with a bunch of genuine rookies who will act as mere punching bags for these heavily experienced foreigners. Meanwhile they get to all make it to the final stages of the tournament, and enjoy the false satisfaction of placing highly. Don't even bother applying unless you genuinely enjoy stroking the egos of experienced players who have always lacked the motivation or desire to actually become high level.
Edit: fite me irl faust
I was waiting for someone to say this. When the average level is in the top 2-5% of foreigner skill that's a quite a stretch of the word rookie.
I'm personally excited to play in a league in which I'm one of the weaker players, but at this point calling it rookie teamleague is...yea.
Also I feel as if the only problem with ego issues is not of the people who have entered, but rather the people who are not entering on the basis that they don't feel like they will be able to win enough. As someone who enters tournaments all the time when I know I have no chance (Clash for Chars / TL Opens), I can tell you it is literally as easy as clicking "register" and having a fun time. If losing bothers you that much, especially at a lower level, maybe you should find another way to invest your time that is less stressful for you.
This sentiment I also strongly agree with. I think the league is great, and is a few more of the CPL or newer guys signed up it would be pretty balanced.
The only part I'd question is calling it rookie league. "Mid tier foreign league" would be a more accurate description.
On December 14 2017 11:57 GGzerG wrote:
Also Edred, Talent, Wallace on the same team, and you are not letting me in the league, like really?
The man does have a point here Faust. These guys are all way better than Telecom. If there are other reasons Telecom isn't in the league, then I understand, but he's got a point otherwise.
That said, I've done this before. It's a bitch. It's absurdly hard (i.e. impossible) to accurately judge someones skill, and no matter what decision you make, there are ALWAYS going to be dissenting voices, so don't sweat it too much. Running a league can be satisfying, but as you already know it's often a thankless job.
On December 14 2017 22:48 SCC-Faust wrote: There used to be a league that may be more in line with their desired skill level that is called "Coach/Pupil League" that was previously ran by L_Master and uses a "teaching" format. A large portion of the players who participated in that league are actually in Rookie Teamleague 2.
Just have to jump in and give credit here. I got it started, but it finished reasonably successfully due almost solely to the massive efforts of Jealous and Lazersnipe. Those two should get 90% of the credit.
On December 14 2017 13:34 ninazerg wrote: Faust's Rookie Team League is an absolute sham. The MMR "soft limit" of 1800 might as well be a minimum to enter. The term rookie has never been more misused in the history of foreign Brood War. This league exists to stroke the egos of foreigners who have literally been playing since the game's inception. The tournament is bound to be filled with a bunch of genuine rookies who will act as mere punching bags for these heavily experienced foreigners. Meanwhile they get to all make it to the final stages of the tournament, and enjoy the false satisfaction of placing highly. Don't even bother applying unless you genuinely enjoy stroking the egos of experienced players who have always lacked the motivation or desire to actually become high level.
Edit: fite me irl faust
I was waiting for someone to say this. When the average level is in the top 2-5% of foreigner skill that's a quite a stretch of the word rookie.
Tomorrow is the last day to enter your teams! 9pm EDT is deadline. Match-ups will be posted in the OP and discord at 10pm EDT. If you are a player who does not have a team but is still interested in playing, shoot me a PM and I will make a team with leftover players. Please join the discord too and I will have you set up by tomorrow night.
Also iRk-AGge, I PMed you. I would like to get in contact with you via discord or skype if you can tomorrow. If not, I will let your team still join since I was so late to respond to you and it was my mistake but we need to talk first. Also for strict clarification Ty2 has not entered this tournament and would have not been accepted if he did.
On December 14 2017 11:57 GGzerG wrote: Faust I respect your wishes and being really professional about the PM but really? I barely play anymore and i've lost to several people on this list that you are letting play...
Like talent, castle, AOT, iopq, and a few others...
How are you letting them play when many of these people have taken games off of me? Pretty sure this is just a biased decision on your part, due to the past "grudge match" thing, right?
Also Edred, Talent, Wallace on the same team, and you are not letting me in the league, like really?
The most biased decision by a tournament organizer ever.
EDIT : "You're skill is viewed as being too high for this tournament"
Take a look at the players in the team list's, I can tell just by glancing that this league will be dominated by a few obvious teams, and you decide to not let me play as if I can't and haven't lost games to many of these people? Obvious biased decision for obvious reasons, good luck, the tournament results will show how right I am once you begin.
gl hf gg
I'm not playing in this u donkey and I personally think you should have been banned from tl years ago and even if you did get voted in I would argue to have you not participate because vexx dropped out of patl and you call people out in grudge matches for stupid reasons then dodge like a bitch and your horrible bi polar attitude where you can't help to act like a child when you lose and play the nice guy card when you win, too bad I don't get the nice guy version of telecom :'(
Then there was the time Telecom randomly whispers Skullz-X17 on discord and spends a good 5 minutes just randomly insulting him out of the blue with no provocation or previous discussion whatsoever, about how his PATL team was so awesome, etc. Skullz was like, "Wtf? Who is this guy and wtf is he doing?"
Then he just stops showing up for PATL and makes up some lame excuse or other.
Good ol Telecom, one of the few active-ish players that BW would be outright better off if he just went away forever.
On December 14 2017 13:34 ninazerg wrote: Faust's Rookie Team League is an absolute sham. The MMR "soft limit" of 1800 might as well be a minimum to enter. The term rookie has never been more misused in the history of foreign Brood War. This league exists to stroke the egos of foreigners who have literally been playing since the game's inception. The tournament is bound to be filled with a bunch of genuine rookies who will act as mere punching bags for these heavily experienced foreigners. Meanwhile they get to all make it to the final stages of the tournament, and enjoy the false satisfaction of placing highly. Don't even bother applying unless you genuinely enjoy stroking the egos of experienced players who have always lacked the motivation or desire to actually become high level.
Edit: fite me irl faust
I was waiting for someone to say this. When the average level is in the top 2-5% of foreigner skill that's a quite a stretch of the word rookie.
i mean this is basically just CRTL 2.0 right, except maybe there aren't any cryoc level people this time
Please sign me out of the league (georgeebin) - Due to certain social necessities, I will be unable to play on the date and don't want to screw a team up by not being present
I posted this on discord (if you are in this league and not on it, I highly recommend joining it, as it is where I'm prioritizing all the information. The OP of this thread is mirrored in info as well. Join here: https://discord.gg/kzPqkWh
Reminder that RTL starts off the first week today in a few hours. Please take the time to read this announcement to reiterate the format so everyone knows what to do.
1. All matches are BO1 and give you 1 point - This is a swiss style tournament. What that means is that each competitor plays opponents with a similar running score, but not the same opponent more than once. The winner is the competitor with the highest aggregate points earned in all rounds. A team with 3 wins who goes 5-0 each week will be placed ahead of a team who has 3 wins but goes 3-2 each week. Because of this, it is encouraged that teams play all sets even if they 3-0.
2. Match-ups are decided at the time of games - Teams will have until walkover time to decide their match-ups. To prevent teams from sniping match-ups, you may use an admin to release the line-ups at the exact same time. Instead of telling your opponent, just whisper an admin the line-up and that admin will get line-ups from both teams and release them in collaboration. You may also use any website or tool to do this as well as long as both teams agree.
3. Familiarize yourself with #rules - Take a quick peek at the #rules of the league before you play so you know what to do when presented with a situation that may require an admin's help. Things like disconnects, team compositions allowed, bugs/glitches, and walkover times are listed in there. Feel free to contact me if anyone is confused with a certain rule.
4. Results and replays - Please remember that the teams on the left side of the match-up pictures will be required to send replays and results to me (via PM here or on Teamliquid). This week, that is @Team Red @Team GIR @Inaequalis @Condemned @Team eMg (win or lose). There will be casts every week. I believe Ninazerg is casting the first week, so the faster everyone gets the results and replays to me, the faster the cast can be organized and put on the teamliquid calendar. Also, results will not be updated until after the cast. Try not to spoil results before the cast for people who want to watch it or post about results in the Teamliquid thread.
5. Have fun - Don't take the league too seriously, this is just for fun. No matter how close in skill a league is (or skill restricted it is), there will always be 50% of the teams moving on as winners for the first week, and 50% as losers. With the power of friendship (which is magic), we can all be winners if we have fun, which would equate to 100% people winning. This may be the hardest week for most teams but as the league moves forward teams will get placed against other teams more closer to their skill level.
Couple things to add to Faust's post: 1 - Remember that "losing better" also matters as much as "winning better". If you're down 0-3 and give up, you just get an 0-5, but if you win your last two games, you lost 2-3 instead of 0-5, which is better, yes?
2 - You can PM your lineups to an Admin ANY TIME before the match! If you do so 10 minutes after these ones are over and next week's games are announced, that's just as good as doing it at the time of the event. Admins can record this information in the admin channel for you.
4 - Replays. When submitting replays, NAME THEM like this: Radivel-X17 (P) defeats SsamJjang (Z) 2-1 on FS.rep
Because there's no set lineups, naming things in this manner makes it really easy to save and record and archive and manage all the games without watching every single one.
On December 17 2017 11:31 twking wrote: Can people register right now or registering as free agent is already finished?
Unfortunately, TEAM registration is closed. However, the existing teams are allowed to change rosters however they like (within the same rules that already exist), so if you come to the discord, people that need help might be willing to add you! Or not, I don't know.
But at the very least you can ask some other similar people for some games. Get together, form a team and enter in RTL 3, haha. :D
- going to compile all the results and reps - will talk to nina and set up the first stream and post the date/time and add it to calendar - updating maps. also match-ups on discord only (to avoid spoilers before cast) they will be updated on OP after cast - will post a thread for a showmatch for something to do since there is a 3 week delay between week 1 and 2
also i believe team condemned has dropped out, so if anybody was hoping to submit a team but missed the deadline, i'll shove one in there. only problem is you will start the league with a 0-1 record. If no team wants to register by wednesday night, i'll just have a walkover spot.
I will make a team logo and probably change team name later.
Anyone who read this message, if you are interested in RTL, please PM me with your Starlog account. I do not care about your MMR, but need to write it down in this post.
On December 18 2017 00:38 Radivel-X17 wrote: 4 - Replays. When submitting replays, NAME THEM like this: Radivel-X17 (P) defeats SsamJjang (Z) 2-1 on FS.rep
Lol?
So that none of the replays can be opened by casters and have to be renamed again, right?
I will make a team logo and probably change team name later.
Anyone who read this message, if you are interested in RTL, please PM me with your Starlog account. I do not care about your MMR, but need to write it down in this post.
On December 18 2017 00:38 Radivel-X17 wrote: 4 - Replays. When submitting replays, NAME THEM like this: Radivel-X17 (P) defeats SsamJjang (Z) 2-1 on FS.rep
Lol?
So that none of the replays can be opened by casters and have to be renamed again, right?
And so that the organizer HAS to rename them for a potential cast, so the replay name doesnt spoiler the caster lol.
I will make a team logo and probably change team name later.
Anyone who read this message, if you are interested in RTL, please PM me with your Starlog account. I do not care about your MMR, but need to write it down in this post.
I will make a team logo and probably change team name later.
Anyone who read this message, if you are interested in RTL, please PM me with your Starlog account. I do not care about your MMR, but need to write it down in this post.
On December 20 2017 22:27 SCC-Faust wrote: Vote in this plz for something I'm working on (showmatch). Ty https://strawpoll.com/y96ckr3c
TBH its pretty clear the top 4 include: Lumix (around my lvl currently sitting at 20-0 2150 on ladder), Cadenzie (2k+ mmr), rlentless (around my lvl when he was active), herbmon (active, 2k mmr)
I would say the 5th is probably manner]mai. I've personally never seen him play, but manner was a legit clan in iCCup, and he was B- before I was.
On December 21 2017 01:04 Jealous wrote: This poll proves why a true democracy will always fail.
I agree, I should be ranked first. Last time we did a tournament, I made it to the top 3 and both of my opponents dodged me. I wish I could remember who they were...
On December 20 2017 22:27 SCC-Faust wrote: Vote in this plz for something I'm working on (showmatch). Ty https://strawpoll.com/y96ckr3c
TBH its pretty clear the top 4 include: Lumix (around my lvl currently sitting at 20-0 2150 on ladder), Cadenzie (2k+ mmr), rlentless (around my lvl when he was active), herbmon (active, 2k mmr)
I would say the 5th is probably manner]mai. I've personally never seen him play, but manner was a legit clan in iCCup, and he was B- before I was.
I was looking through a bunch of accounts a couple days ago and there are many 2k+ mmr players.
On December 20 2017 22:27 SCC-Faust wrote: Vote in this plz for something I'm working on (showmatch). Ty https://strawpoll.com/y96ckr3c
TBH its pretty clear the top 4 include: Lumix (around my lvl currently sitting at 20-0 2150 on ladder), Cadenzie (2k+ mmr), rlentless (around my lvl when he was active), herbmon (active, 2k mmr)
I would say the 5th is probably manner]mai. I've personally never seen him play, but manner was a legit clan in iCCup, and he was B- before I was.
I was looking through a bunch of accounts a couple days ago and there are many 2k+ mmr players.
There may be, but I have a good feel for the skill level of the people I've listed. Statistically, these players must be higher than a majority of the players participating. I can't really speak for the rest.
On December 20 2017 22:27 SCC-Faust wrote: Vote in this plz for something I'm working on (showmatch). Ty https://strawpoll.com/y96ckr3c
TBH its pretty clear the top 4 include: Lumix (around my lvl currently sitting at 20-0 2150 on ladder), Cadenzie (2k+ mmr), rlentless (around my lvl when he was active), herbmon (active, 2k mmr)
I would say the 5th is probably manner]mai. I've personally never seen him play, but manner was a legit clan in iCCup, and he was B- before I was.
I was looking through a bunch of accounts a couple days ago and there are many 2k+ mmr players.
There may be, but I have a good feel for the skill level of the people I've listed. Statistically, these players must be higher than a majority of the players participating. I can't really speak for the rest.
I totally agree that the ones you included are all better than average, but I think there are about 10 other players who are on a pretty similar level. irk has aequitas at 2070 mmr and elka above 2k, iopg has an account at 2160, aiwekas is above 2100, I think like half the [emg] guys are above 2k, and then I'm sure there are a couple I have no idea about. I just mean to say it's not clear that the top 4 are the 4 players you listed, only two of your 5 made my own top 5 in the poll - they'd all be in my top 10, though.
On December 21 2017 05:24 EndingLife wrote: LuMiX is begging to get sniped with that 20-0 record. How in the world was a 20-0 2150 MMR player allowed into a 'rookie league' anyways?
He has one account at 20-0 2135. Another account at 141-114 2037, a third 86-62 2004.
On December 20 2017 22:27 SCC-Faust wrote: Vote in this plz for something I'm working on (showmatch). Ty https://strawpoll.com/y96ckr3c
TBH its pretty clear the top 4 include: Lumix (around my lvl currently sitting at 20-0 2150 on ladder), Cadenzie (2k+ mmr), rlentless (around my lvl when he was active), herbmon (active, 2k mmr)
I would say the 5th is probably manner]mai. I've personally never seen him play, but manner was a legit clan in iCCup, and he was B- before I was.
I was looking through a bunch of accounts a couple days ago and there are many 2k+ mmr players.
There may be, but I have a good feel for the skill level of the people I've listed. Statistically, these players must be higher than a majority of the players participating. I can't really speak for the rest.
I totally agree that the ones you included are all better than average, but I think there are about 10 other players who are on a pretty similar level. irk has aequitas at 2070 mmr and elka above 2k, iopg has an account at 2160, aiwekas is above 2100, I think like half the [emg] guys are above 2k, and then I'm sure there are a couple I have no idea about. I just mean to say it's not clear that the top 4 are the 4 players you listed, only two of your 5 made my own top 5 in the poll - they'd all be in my top 10, though.
Yeah aiwekas is AoV, hes pretty good. I agree with eMg- I know that kimquex and rich are decent. IOPG I think is kinda misleading... his mmr might be 2160 but I know he's been sitting on that mmr for a while near the beginning of SCR launch (aka easy rise) and he's definitively not as good as any of these players you or I listed.
On December 21 2017 05:55 castleeMg wrote: yep, im not sure how lumix and cadenzie got into this league or why they would even want to play in it, big fish in the little pond syndrome, i even think dreamer from msj has got 2200+. yet its not my league and im going to support RTL either way but i think some of these players should have some decency to respect the skill cap and even tho i believe they are good people, i really think its not a very good thing for anyone in this league to have them slither their way in to give themselves some sort of weird self satisfaction after beating players they are clearly better than.
I think like half the [emg] guys are above 2k, and then I'm sure there are a couple I have no idea about. I just mean to say it's not clear that the top 4 are the 4 players you listed, only two of your 5 made my own top 5 in the poll - they'd all be in my top 10, though.
where is that info from? kim and rich are argueably the best players on emg but they only want to play 2v2 and 3v3 kimquex 2037 MMR Terran, wins 63 losses 39 rich- 2027 MMR Protoss, wins 71 losses 50
AOT and LJ1 are the only other player on emg who hit 2000 AOT[eMg] 1714 MMR Zerg, wins 181 losses 172 J1[eMg] 1967 MMR Terran, wins 43 losses 25
you have 7 players playing in the league and 4 of them hit 2k? That's more than half.. I didn't know that kim and rich- were only playing 2v2/3v3 though.
i read ur post wrong and i thought u said 7 players on emg were 2000 -__-. but the cap was a "loose" 2100 or 2150 i cant remember when i entered that team so i feel like i am playing by the rules.
I didn't mean to say that you guys are too good for the league at all. Just that a couple of your players are probably somewhere in the top 5/ top 10 range - that will inevitably be true for some players no matter what. Personally I don't really have issues with any of the allowed players, I think everyone signed up can lose 25%+ of the time against 5+ other players signed up. A couple players who tried to sign up who were rejected clearly had no business being in the league (some because they thought ty2 was in it), but I don't see any of the accepted players as way better than the rest.
you people have to factor in when the accts got the high mmr...getting 20-0 in august/september was not hard at all..let's be honest. getting it now is probably way harder hence my 50% winrate. Plus, I'm not even active so you guys are basing the top5 on what previous skill level?
On December 21 2017 13:16 LuMiX wrote: you people have to factor in when the accts got the high mmr...getting 20-0 in august/september was not hard at all..let's be honest. getting it now is probably way harder hence my 50% winrate. Plus, I'm not even active so you guys are basing the top5 on what previous skill level?
This is true. But honestly, you're still definitively top 5 in this LOL
I saw my name get mentioned. Im pretty close to true MMR due to lack of practice, but I still have that potential to reach 2k MMR.
2k on ladder now isn't so easy anymore, but you can do it if you actively practice
I still think LoveBoy is #1 in this if Faust doesn't remove him. That's BW-TuFFeR playing Protoss. Second would probably be one of the Inae guys, then LuMiX and others.
On December 21 2017 23:59 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: I still think LoveBoy is #1 in this if Faust doesn't remove him. That's BW-TuFFeR playing Protoss. Second would probably be one of the Inae guys, then LuMiX and others.
On December 20 2017 22:27 SCC-Faust wrote: Vote in this plz for something I'm working on (showmatch). Ty https://strawpoll.com/y96ckr3c
TBH its pretty clear the top 4 include: Lumix (around my lvl currently sitting at 20-0 2150 on ladder), Cadenzie (2k+ mmr), rlentless (around my lvl when he was active), herbmon (active, 2k mmr)
I would say the 5th is probably manner]mai. I've personally never seen him play, but manner was a legit clan in iCCup, and he was B- before I was.
I was looking through a bunch of accounts a couple days ago and there are many 2k+ mmr players.
There may be, but I have a good feel for the skill level of the people I've listed. Statistically, these players must be higher than a majority of the players participating. I can't really speak for the rest.
I totally agree that the ones you included are all better than average, but I think there are about 10 other players who are on a pretty similar level. irk has aequitas at 2070 mmr and elka above 2k, iopg has an account at 2160, aiwekas is above 2100, I think like half the [emg] guys are above 2k, and then I'm sure there are a couple I have no idea about. I just mean to say it's not clear that the top 4 are the 4 players you listed, only two of your 5 made my own top 5 in the poll - they'd all be in my top 10, though.
Yeah aiwekas is AoV, hes pretty good. I agree with eMg- I know that kimquex and rich are decent. IOPG I think is kinda misleading... his mmr might be 2160 but I know he's been sitting on that mmr for a while near the beginning of SCR launch (aka easy rise) and he's definitively not as good as any of these players you or I listed.
1st.i not in aov team just help them last season (amazing team) this season i play for msj( friendly team ) what about my skill lets say i think i`m top 5 in 2x2 here,3x3 dont play for like 7 year any game ,about 1x1 lets say i training last 3month,i got some nice win but no way i good in 1x1 i call myself 2000mmr.i think in this league nr1 its lumix i saw his game vs sziky over 30min(dont remember who win) even if he inactive he still nr1 here.
On December 22 2017 10:58 GGzerG wrote: So basically there is a lot of people playing in the league that shouldn't be even more so now than before lol, much surprise much wow.
Hey, it's better than having Telecom in this league.
On December 21 2017 23:59 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: I still think LoveBoy is #1 in this if Faust doesn't remove him. That's BW-TuFFeR playing Protoss. Second would probably be one of the Inae guys, then LuMiX and others.
I thought offraces weren't allowed. He's supposed to link to his BW-TuFFeR profile as well.
Oh big news. The D/C rank leagues always have been a joke when it came to player eligibilty. A lot of players in this league aren't rookies no matter how you define it.
But i stopped caring bout that a long time ago and im looking forward to play! Who cares basically? It's for the fun anyway!
On December 22 2017 10:58 GGzerG wrote: So basically there is a lot of people playing in the league that shouldn't be even more so now than before lol, much surprise much wow.
Hey, it's better than having Telecom in this league.
On December 22 2017 10:58 GGzerG wrote: So basically there is a lot of people playing in the league that shouldn't be even more so now than before lol, much surprise much wow.
I agree with people who say a skill restricted league is not a good idea, and I have said so myself that this is very difficult to do. However, so far the results from week 1 have been surprisingly close, and the games have been great, and this is before the swiss style kicks in where people are paired with the team with similar stats, so technically this should be the hardest week for most teams. In comparison, week 1 of RTL1 had every team going 5-0 or 0-5 with one exception, and most of the games were stomps. You can tell yourself whatever you want to fix your broken ego when you can't accept being rejected though I suppose, but this league will do alright no matter what your useless opinion is. Your posts are basically white noise in this thread with the exception of the random chuckle or laugh people get at your expense.
Also the leader of iRk talked to me about Tuffer on several occasions. He has been nothing but super kind and willing to work with me.
iRk-AgGe - Last Tuesday at 9:15 AM Yo bro! As i said before, if you want to remove Tuffer from our RTL squad, it's totally okey with me. I dont want to make problems for you
SCC-Faust - Last Tuesday at 9:18 AM Nah I made a rule to not remove someone I said yes to cause it just seems very rude imo and they did nothing wrong. Whether you want to field him is up to you tho.
iRk-AgGe - Last Tuesday at 1:42 PM Allright! Well, I'm 99,9% sure I don't need to use him, unless we're short of players, wich we never are.
So yeah, as you can see, not only did I get the offer from the team leader to remove him not once, but TWICE, but even on the roster, he doesn't plan on using him unless they don't have enough people to play.
hmm, I find it "lame" that Hunters is the sole 3on3 map. At the very least you could include BGH and for the lulz also maybe Fastest and some Blizzard maps. Always Hunters for 3on3 is meh imo at least
hmm, I find it "lame" that Hunters is the sole 3on3 map. At the very least you could include BGH and for the lulz also maybe Fastest and some Blizzard maps. Always Hunters for 3on3 is meh imo at least
I'm not a fan of hunters personally. Last RTL used BGH, and I'm a huge BGH fan. I held a vote tho and Hunters won by a considerable margin. This is something I definitely want to experiment with the next tournament I host though, because I love 2v2/3v3. I made it only one map though because it is probably the least played of the sets, and I didn't want to put pressure on a ton of people to practice and familiarize themselves with 3v3 maps on top of the 1v1/2v2 maps.
I am actually thinking of hosting a 3v3 tournament with a prize pool next, or at least entertaining the idea. When this ends, I'll have my mind decided and move on whatever plans I make. Some people make really interesting 3v3 maps and I would be ecstatic to watch a tournament play out on these maps and see what strategies people come up with.
Two maps I'd like to see are Redheart Bridge and another 2v2 map someone made in the [SK] clan. [SK] hosted a 2v2 tournament one week and I played it alongside with someone in dM- and had a great time. It was a shared base map with long rush distances, and the games I played on it were very fun. If anyone remembers this map, can someone upload it?
This is Redheart Bridge:
After playing on shared base maps for Brood War, I am no longer skeptical. They are for sure super fun and I highly advise people try them out. I am not really sure what other 3v3 maps there are though. If anyone has any recommendations for 3v3 maps, message me and I'll probably sit on it and eventually host a 3v3 tournament.
hmm, I find it "lame" that Hunters is the sole 3on3 map. At the very least you could include BGH and for the lulz also maybe Fastest and some Blizzard maps. Always Hunters for 3on3 is meh imo at least
I'm not a fan of hunters personally. Last RTL used BGH, and I'm a huge BGH fan. I held a vote tho and Hunters won by a considerable margin. This is something I definitely want to experiment with the next tournament I host though, because I love 2v2/3v3. I made it only one map though because it is probably the least played of the sets, and I didn't want to put pressure on a ton of people to practice and familiarize themselves with 3v3 maps on top of the 1v1/2v2 maps.
I am actually thinking of hosting a 3v3 tournament with a prize pool next, or at least entertaining the idea. When this ends, I'll have my mind decided and move on whatever plans I make. Some people make really interesting 3v3 maps and I would be ecstatic to watch a tournament play out on these maps and see what strategies people come up with.
Two maps I'd like to see are Redheart Bridge and another 2v2 map someone made in the [SK] clan. [SK] hosted a 2v2 tournament one week and I played it alongside with someone in dM- and had a great time. It was a shared base map with long rush distances, and the games I played on it were very fun. If anyone remembers this map, can someone upload it?
This is Redheart Bridge:
After playing on shared base maps for Brood War, I am no longer skeptical. They are for sure super fun and I highly advise people try them out. I am not really sure what other 3v3 maps there are though. If anyone has any recommendations for 3v3 maps, message me and I'll probably sit on it and eventually host a 3v3 tournament.
in SK we use a hunters map with ramps...surprisingly I've had some really good games on it, probably better than the original.
On December 22 2017 10:58 GGzerG wrote: So basically there is a lot of people playing in the league that shouldn't be even more so now than before lol, much surprise much wow.
Hey, it's better than having Telecom in this league.
So clever...The sad thing about this is that this is the only thing you are good at, forum keyboard warrior. Do you even play this game? - -
On December 22 2017 10:58 GGzerG wrote: So basically there is a lot of people playing in the league that shouldn't be even more so now than before lol, much surprise much wow.
I agree with people who say a skill restricted league is not a good idea, and I have said so myself that this is very difficult to do. However, so far the results from week 1 have been surprisingly close, and the games have been great, and this is before the swiss style kicks in where people are paired with the team with similar stats, so technically this should be the hardest week for most teams. In comparison, week 1 of RTL1 had every team going 5-0 or 0-5 with one exception, and most of the games were stomps. You can tell yourself whatever you want to fix your broken ego when you can't accept being rejected though I suppose, but this league will do alright no matter what your useless opinion is. Your posts are basically white noise in this thread with the exception of the random chuckle or laugh people get at your expense.
Also the leader of iRk talked to me about Tuffer on several occasions. He has been nothing but super kind and willing to work with me.
iRk-AgGe - Last Tuesday at 9:15 AM Yo bro! As i said before, if you want to remove Tuffer from our RTL squad, it's totally okey with me. I dont want to make problems for you
SCC-Faust - Last Tuesday at 9:18 AM Nah I made a rule to not remove someone I said yes to cause it just seems very rude imo and they did nothing wrong. Whether you want to field him is up to you tho.
iRk-AgGe - Last Tuesday at 1:42 PM Allright! Well, I'm 99,9% sure I don't need to use him, unless we're short of players, wich we never are.
So yeah, as you can see, not only did I get the offer from the team leader to remove him not once, but TWICE, but even on the roster, he doesn't plan on using him unless they don't have enough people to play.
Hey listen no hard feelings, I appreciate your PM to me was actually very professional, although it was just a long wall of text that meant nothing, because really you are not using a "Skill" restriction, you are using a damn "Bias" restriction, it's sickening that you won't just come out and say you are restricting me from playing b/c you are a bandwagoner and because others dislike me (B/c of BM in past, and or b/c they think I wasn't really in Korean clans / I was lying about it.), it'd really be more respectful and you showing you are a man / not a coward, by just telling the truth and say you why you are really restricting me from playing in your little league.
I'm over playing in the league I don't care about that, it is just the fact that this is what the BW Foreign scene is now, is a bunch of bandwagon players that if you are not in the " in " crowd, or don't see eye to eye, you are not allowed to play in an event, that is being clear cut and concise.
Also, because the majority of the people in the BW Foreign scene that "don't like me / hate me / don't want me playing in events / etc" don't even know me, have never spoken to me, or anything of the sort, that is why I use the term ' bandwagon' , because if you dislike someone just b/c other people dislike that person b/c of arbitrary reasons it shines through, and ultimately you will not achieve what you are striving to do, which is to get me to not play in the BW foreign scene events.
Maybe not in your events, but I am not going anywhere, get used to it.
On December 24 2017 04:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: are you gonna challenge him also to prove that you are bad enough to play in the league?
Challenges are dead in this scene, people don't respect the skill in game, they respect being in a clique / knowing the right people, saying the 'right' things, this scene is more politics then it is about skill really, people aren't playing for the same reasons they used to anymore.
To be honest, I think you are not too good for this league. There are probably 10 players in it that I think are better. But you seem to be consistently arguing from a 'what benefits me right now' perspective, showcased through claiming to be bad when being bad is a requirement for being allowed to join a tournament and claiming to be good when you want recognition for being good. There was a good breakdown of you claiming to be anywhere from C- to B skill level based on tournament restrictions earlier.
For that reason I can't help but feel a bit like you not being allowed to join this tourney because the highest level you've claimed to be at is higher than the level permitted is a case of karmic justice, and this feeling is exacerbated by you doing stuff like challenging faust (who himself said he is too good to play in the league) where if you won, that'd prove that you're bad enough to deserve admission. As for foreign bw being a cool kids club, meh. It's not difficult to be accepted, all you have to do is be a reasonably nice guy. I see new people join the community all the time and if they don't act like jerks, they get accepted with pretty open arms, people help them out with their game etc. I can agree that people are going to judge you based on past sins, especially if you haven't really tried to redeem yourself, but that's kinda a crucial part of motivating people to be nice. A lot of people would be way bigger assholes if there were no negative consequences to it.
No hard feelings though, I think it'd be swell if you focused on playing a lot and improving your skills and becoming a regular tournament participant, we need all the people we can get. If you wanna challenge people to grudge matches and then actually show up for them, that'd be awesome too, watching grudge matches is great. I just thought the aspect of complaining about not being allowed into the league because you are perceived as too good was really weird to combine with challenging people to prove that you are better than them.
I'm gonna make a vote for week 2 onwards on a format restriction for 2v2 about whether we should allow ZZ or not.
Part of the reason I made the 2v2 double Zerg team ban was because of knowing at a professional level it is banned, and foreign tournaments/leagues have historically followed suit, even up to today with PATL and others.
Some points I want people to think about before voting:
This is a skill restricted league, so not everything that is strong at the top level may be strong here
The perceived strength of ZZ may not be accurate to its actual strength these days, or on the maps people play atm
With ZZ available, you can double 4 pool team GIR.
This starts in about an hour. Please be sure to join the discord (in the OP) to keep up to date, I've fallen behind on updating this thread because I'm a shitlord. It'll all be updated during the week tho. I usually updated it at work but I didn't have work last week so I got really lazy with all the clerical shit. But yeah, the discord is 100% up to date in the info channels.
On January 08 2018 03:46 SCC-Faust wrote: This starts in about an hour. Please be sure to join the discord (in the OP) to keep up to date, I've fallen behind on updating this thread because I'm a shitlord. It'll all be updated during the week tho. I usually updated it at work but I didn't have work last week so I got really lazy with all the clerical shit. But yeah, the discord is 100% up to date in the info channels.
On January 08 2018 09:12 SCC-Faust wrote: Did I fuck up? Cause I thought I made it public. If it isn't visible, the results are overwhelmingly "no" for ZZ teams in 2v2. Fuck.
On January 08 2018 09:12 SCC-Faust wrote: Did I fuck up? Cause I thought I made it public. If it isn't visible, the results are overwhelmingly "no" for ZZ teams in 2v2. Fuck.
On January 08 2018 09:12 SCC-Faust wrote: Did I fuck up? Cause I thought I made it public. If it isn't visible, the results are overwhelmingly "no" for ZZ teams in 2v2. Fuck.
It may be because your bias is overwhelming, I think you should let ZZ team play tbh, it would only make sense bro
On January 08 2018 09:12 SCC-Faust wrote: Did I fuck up? Cause I thought I made it public. If it isn't visible, the results are overwhelmingly "no" for ZZ teams in 2v2. Fuck.
It may be because your bias is overwhelming, I think you should let ZZ team play tbh, it would only make sense bro
On January 08 2018 09:12 SCC-Faust wrote: Did I fuck up? Cause I thought I made it public. If it isn't visible, the results are overwhelmingly "no" for ZZ teams in 2v2. Fuck.
It may be because your bias is overwhelming, I think you should let ZZ team play tbh, it would only make sense bro
Agreed.
KenZy and Aldaren, high level 2v2 players who have a lot of experience with all match ups, told me ZZ is NOT overpowered and that it is a myth that it was banned in Korea.
They also told me that according to Scan, ZT vs ZZ is 60/40 and ZP vs ZZ is 55/45.
On January 08 2018 09:12 SCC-Faust wrote: Did I fuck up? Cause I thought I made it public. If it isn't visible, the results are overwhelmingly "no" for ZZ teams in 2v2. Fuck.
I would have agreed that ZZ was slightly stronger than other combinations back in the day (2008-2010) when I was playing a lot of high level 2v2, but the advent of a better understanding of the game + modern maps ("modern" meaning post-python really) diluted that advantage. Easy thirds for the non-Z races and lack of bases for the ZZ to take and overwhelm the opponent have changed the calculus. TP is also stronger versus ZR teams than in the old days for the same reasons. ZR teams still hold the advantage over non-Z teams in general, I think, but it's not as significant as it used to be because it's now easier to lose that advantage.
For example, consider Python. If the Z team gets an early advantage they can take the mineral only, the far corners, and maybe the islands. The non-Z team, if patient, likely cannot be stopped from taking at least their naturals eventually. Once the non-Z team is behind, however, they're not going to be taking a far corner unless the Z team fails miserably in scouting or really screws up in a fight and loses their entire army--the expo is simply too far away. Islands are also difficult to get up when behind, especially vs mutas and zerg drops. If the non-Z team share 6/7 or 11/12 they might get one island, but otherwise it's unlikely. So, the early game advantage will secure the Z team thirds, while preventing the stronger (if bases were even) non-Z team from getting thirds. On the other hand, in FS, or CB, the non-Z team can just turtle and move to their third slowly. They know that so long as they play it slow and patient, make sure they don't die, and secure the third, the Z team can at most get 3 bases each. Z is generally weaker than the other races when bases are even, so the non-Z team is "ahead" if each player in the game has 3 bases.
Obviously if Z team will be trying to prevent 3rds and prevent the above scenario, and there are a million factors that go into each game. But that's just my very macro level analysis of how the more modern maps affect 2v2. I also think the idea of ZZ being "overpowered" was exacerbated by the fact that anytime a team lost to ZZ, they had the easy excuse that ZZ was "imba." I think that there's probably no real reason to ban ZZ, especially when there are no top players in the tournament anyways. But if the tournament participants don't want ZZ then what does it matter, ban it if you want.
On January 09 2018 03:17 Chrysanthemum wrote: I would have agreed that ZZ was slightly stronger than other combinations back in the day (2008-2010) when I was playing a lot of high level 2v2, but the advent of a better understanding of the game + modern maps ("modern" meaning post-python really) diluted that advantage. Easy thirds for the non-Z races and lack of bases for the ZZ to take and overwhelm the opponent have changed the calculus. TP is also stronger versus ZR teams than in the old days for the same reasons. ZR teams still hold the advantage over non-Z teams in general, I think, but it's not as significant as it used to be because it's now easier to lose that advantage.
For example, consider Python. If the Z team gets an early advantage they can take the mineral only, the far corners, and maybe the islands. The non-Z team, if patient, likely cannot be stopped from taking at least their naturals eventually. Once the non-Z team is behind, however, they're not going to be taking a far corner unless the Z team fails miserably in scouting or really screws up in a fight and loses their entire army--the expo is simply too far away. Islands are also difficult to get up when behind, especially vs mutas and zerg drops. If the non-Z team share 6/7 or 11/12 they might get one island, but otherwise it's unlikely. So, the early game advantage will secure the Z team thirds, while preventing the stronger (if bases were even) non-Z team from getting thirds. On the other hand, in FS, or CB, the non-Z team can just turtle and move to their third slowly. They know that so long as they play it slow and patient, make sure they don't die, and secure the third, the Z team can at most get 3 bases each. Z is generally weaker than the other races when bases are even, so the non-Z team is "ahead" if each player in the game has 3 bases.
Obviously if Z team will be trying to prevent 3rds and prevent the above scenario, and there are a million factors that go into each game. But that's just my very macro level analysis of how the more modern maps affect 2v2. I also think the idea of ZZ being "overpowered" was exacerbated by the fact that anytime a team lost to ZZ, they had the easy excuse that ZZ was "imba." I think that there's probably no real reason to ban ZZ, especially when there are no top players in the tournament anyways. But if the tournament participants don't want ZZ then what does it matter, ban it if you want.
I would never claim to be even a decent 2v2 player given my max is C+ in it on ICCup from around 2010 or so, but my personal reason for voting "No" was because it feels like it creates the following scenario, in my experience:
1. One Zerg goes Hatchery first 2. One Zerg goes Pool first 3. It is difficult to punish this because if you are a Protoss or Terran, you don't have an adequate army out on the field to both stop the 12 Hatch and defend your home against the speed-first player. 4. As a result, one player can go for Hydra/Lurk while the other can go for Muta, which forces both Terran and Protoss to diversify their composition and defenses while still likely being kept to one base - which makes it even harder to generate the requisite forces to combat a diverse ZZ.
Again, I admit my understanding of 2v2 and vs. ZZ is limited to my own experience as an R main in 2v2 (and P main in 1v1) but this has happened too many times for me to count. In the interest of this league's constraints (rookies) perhaps someone can give me general advice on how to handle ZZ if your team doesn't have a Z on it? It just seems like ZZ can take economic initiative much easier than P/T, and as a result snowball into a W.
The question of "how to beat a ZZ team" is not really answerable in the abstract I think. The only answer to that would be "play well." It will depend on a variety of factors. Generally a ZZ team will, as you said, 9p + expo, although it might double 9p or 9p + 12p expo or any other variation based on things like whether the enemy team is ZR, RR, positions, map, and so on. Then the single baser can be the techer while the expoer masses, or the single baser can mass while the expoer techs, again depending on various factors and preferences.
If you're talking in the abstract, yes, a rich zerg making hydras and a rich zerg making mutas can be difficult for a single non-Z to deal with. How's the game get there, though? It takes time. A 9p zerg isn't going to be making a ton of muta or a ton of hydras for a long time. At least one of the zergs needs to be massing lings at least for some time because a good enemy team will move out if they see both zergs going pure drones. If there is a P on the other team, there's a good chance that P just cannons his ramp and goes 2 gate +1 sairs. A PZ Z can hold his ramp vs ZZ if one enemy Z 12h'd and the PZ Z goes 12p + 11 hatch and makes sunken instantly. Double gate sair can be very difficult to deal with and can even beat the muta of the ZZ expoer if they mess up their micro at any point and let the sair count get too high. Once the sairs get out of control the 9p zerg is screwed, those OLs are gonna be dying nonstop. If zerg starts spending a bunch of money on spores and hydras and shit, then that's countered by the ling/muta or the MM or ground army of the sair P's ally. Meanwhile if it's a Terran, he's going to turtle until he has a large MM ball, and can play like it's a normal TvZ, just on one base for longer than usual. A Terran MM ball of sufficient size and microed properly is basically immune to any number of enemy zerglings, so if the T went MM he'll likely wait for that ball. If his ally is Z, and went +1 attack mass lings, he'll either break out on his own (+1 lings own ling vs ling) or the T will free him, and then they'll hit one or the other Z. 12h 2 hatch muta comes out at around ~6:10 and has a 15-20 second travel time, so if the expo Z was able to go straight drone muta the T moves out with first 18 MM (if 2 rax) at ~5:15 (15 units with firebat numbers based on scouting of how many lings there are + 3 medics) and the TZ goes for whichever enemy Z is weaker. It'll take 7-8 sunkens to defend if they go to the expo Z with a decent number of lings still alive.
As I'm writing this I'm realizing it's not a fruitful endeavor to type it all up. There are too many scenarios, and timings and reactions are going to be different based on each game. Maybe T moves out stupidly and loses MM before there are enough to be immune to lings, so then he has to turtle for 5 minutes. Maybe the 9p Z ramp hatches late and loses it to 3 zealots + 9p lings before his ally can help. Who knows.
On January 09 2018 07:51 Chrysanthemum wrote: The question of "how to beat a ZZ team" is not really answerable in the abstract I think. The only answer to that would be "play well." It will depend on a variety of factors. Generally a ZZ team will, as you said, 9p + expo, although it might double 9p or 9p + 12p expo or any other variation based on things like whether the enemy team is ZR, RR, positions, map, and so on. Then the single baser can be the techer while the expoer masses, or the single baser can mass while the expoer techs, again depending on various factors and preferences.
If you're talking in the abstract, yes, a rich zerg making hydras and a rich zerg making mutas can be difficult for a single non-Z to deal with. How's the game get there, though? It takes time. A 9p zerg isn't going to be making a ton of muta or a ton of hydras for a long time. At least one of the zergs needs to be massing lings at least for some time because a good enemy team will move out if they see both zergs going pure drones. If there is a P on the other team, there's a good chance that P just cannons his ramp and goes 2 gate +1 sairs. A PZ Z can hold his ramp vs ZZ if one enemy Z 12h'd and the PZ Z goes 12p + 11 hatch and makes sunken instantly. Double gate sair can be very difficult to deal with and can even beat the muta of the ZZ expoer if they mess up their micro at any point and let the sair count get too high. Once the sairs get out of control the 9p zerg is screwed, those OLs are gonna be dying nonstop. If zerg starts spending a bunch of money on spores and hydras and shit, then that's countered by the ling/muta or the MM or ground army of the sair P's ally. Meanwhile if it's a Terran, he's going to turtle until he has a large MM ball, and can play like it's a normal TvZ, just on one base for longer than usual. A Terran MM ball of sufficient size and microed properly is basically immune to any number of enemy zerglings, so if the T went MM he'll likely wait for that ball. If his ally is Z, and went +1 attack mass lings, he'll either break out on his own (+1 lings own ling vs ling) or the T will free him, and then they'll hit one or the other Z. 12h 2 hatch muta comes out at around ~6:10 and has a 15-20 second travel time, so if the expo Z was able to go straight drone muta the T moves out with first 18 MM (if 2 rax) at ~5:15 (15 units with firebat numbers based on scouting of how many lings there are + 3 medics) and the TZ goes for whichever enemy Z is weaker. It'll take 7-8 sunkens to defend if they go to the expo Z with a decent number of lings still alive.
As I'm writing this I'm realizing it's not a fruitful endeavor to type it all up. There are too many scenarios, and timings and reactions are going to be different based on each game. Maybe T moves out stupidly and loses MM before there are enough to be immune to lings, so then he has to turtle for 5 minutes. Maybe the 9p Z ramp hatches late and loses it to 3 zealots + 9p lings before his ally can help. Who knows.
I fully understand that there are simply too many scenarios to list and recount. I have watched a fair amount of A level or higher 2v2 replays trying to improve my own play and I looked at every one because I am an R main in 2v2 (mainly because I like going ZR as the R and getting ZZ, haha) and the trend was that while it was not an outright loss for the non-ZZ team as it feels at my level, but it did still seem disproportionately difficult. Of course, as ZZ or even ZZZ in 3v3 I've lost plenty of times so I know it's not unbeatable if the teamwork is poor which at my level it is bound to be, but it still felt like I had much more room to breathe as part of a Z-dominant team.
That being said, I greatly appreciate your feedback and I will keep it in mind for next time I play 2v2 against ZZ. Even your brief recounting of a few scenarios was tremendously helpful to my understanding of what I should be thinking about in such a scenario. I wish more people discussed such things about 2v2 as there seems to be dearth of literature from competent players on the matter. Thank you.
On January 09 2018 08:12 Chrysanthemum wrote: I'm willing to give my input, whatever value it may have, I guess it's just hard without a specific scenario or question (e.g. a replay)
Well, while I have you, I have a somewhat unrelated but definite interest in this replay I saw recently:
If you could share your thoughts on this approach to P/Z teaming, and your thoughts in general on the replay, I would appreciate it.
Part of the difficulty of getting into 2v2 without a dedicated and experienced 2v2 partner is that it often feels like both players are playing 1v1 rush strats and neither really knows what they are doing, so there is no uniformity, too many unaccounted-for variables, and too many variables in general. It makes getting a grasp of 2v2 very difficult, for me. There is also the situation that if you're bad at 2v2, you either get crushed too fast to understand what happened by a good team, or you play similarly bad people and you don't know if you won the game because what you did was good or because the other teams just were shitty/unlucky compared to you.
I'm not sure what you mean by the "approach" to PZ. It's pretty common to cannon like that. The PZ team needed to send 1 ling or 1 probe to T nat at the very least before ~4:10 which is when the first set of 8 rines and 2 medics might move out. If they had done this they could have reacted more appropriately instead of thinking the typical ling + MM set was coming and needing to make 8 cannons before P even started to mine gas. I believe there were 10 marines on the map when the 8th cannon finished.
It's confusing me that the Z on this ZP team made 14 lings + legs and expo'd off an overpool + cannons, which means he has 7 drones mining minerals, with an 8th drone idle for a very long time, at the time his spire pops (and he only had 6 drones mining for most of the spire's build time). With overpool it's usually 8, maybe 10 lings no legs and pure drones when your ally send you zealot + is cannoning for you. I think it's also better to 8 gas before adding 3 drones. This teal zerg also made one too many drones to have 3 larva when pool finished, but maybe that was purposeful since P sent him a zealot. I understand the desire to have legs for ling backstabs on enemy Z's mineral line, but even if you do it, you don't need to make 14 lings like this teal Z did. As a result, despite his spire finishing at 5:30 which is typical of overpool->straight spire, his mutas are still super slow; he makes a round of drones from both his hatches after the spire, instead of being able to just make mutas. If he had had the extra 3-4 drones he should have, he would have mined an additional 180-240 minerals/minute for 2-3 minutes and then forward. He would have then had a large window of time to do whatever; T didn't finish ebay til around 6:30 and TZ Z has to spore hard and start lair, so the PZ Z should have total free reign in the air for at least 3 minutes before any TZ mutas come out (lair - 60 sec build time, spire 75 sec build time, muta 25 sec build time). Teal coulda been harassing white's mineral line from below (take a few spore hits) or T's nat line. And in fact White doesn't have his first muta out until 9:30 (4 minutes after teal had spire and an expansion). If Teal Z had been harassing Terran and if Teal had proper muta micro, Terran would not have been able to move out and stop the P's first attempt to expand (or he may have been able to, but it would have been far harder--he'd have to micro at home vs muta as well as control his army attacking P). T's first vessel with irradiate and energy is at 12:30, which is quite slow IMO given that he got away with expoing so early. At this point, by my count, teal has 18 mutas out (+3 sitting at home and 3 building) while White has 17 mutas. Both have +1 carapace. T also already has a pretty much saturated 3rd base. These are not the numbers you want to be seeing when P cannoned for Z to expo, which was then completely uncontested. But Teal's eco advantage is starting to kick in more, so now he has significantly more muta. White has no chance to win in a muta vs muta fight. PZ kills TZ army pretty handily in the first big clash, putting Teal Z wayyy ahead of White Z in muta count. Teal Z makes a big mistake here and continues to fight, losing way too many mutas against white's muta + blue's mm right afterwards (this is specifically at 13:43 in the replay--look at the populations--Teal goes from 82 to 62 pop, while White goes from 58 to 60 pop over the course of the fight). Now it's 12 white muta to 14 teal muta, and white has somehow managed to get an expansion completely unmolested. The Teal Z should have stopped that White expansion instead of engaging the way he did; after the first big fight, white has less than 1/2 teal's muta count and blue has literally zero vessels, so the only way that white nat is living is if blue stims his marines super hard and maybe barely gets there in time. Teal would also have been in a good position to take a third if he didnt lose half his mutas (although he does get a third 3 minutes later).
On the T side of things obviously he coulda added like 7 more rax before this point, he only has 5 rax and he has 3 bases mining and is floating 3-4k minerals, but it's pretty difficult controlling big MM armies vs PZ, so I get it. It'd be a lot better to not have 4 rines queued up at a time though, and it's not great to be queueing up 4 vessels either. I am also a proponent of actually using the fac even if playing SK terran style, and have it constantly churning out vultures with mines and laying them as time permits. This is very good for obvious reasons; it's cheap, and P usually has a fairly heavy melee-oriented army + no obs until later. I also typically add in a dropship or two when I have 2 ports.
I didn't really watch the P very closely. I think he was slow on adding gates after this expo, but didn't really look. P is a pretty braindead race to play in PZ vs TZ IMO, so it's not that hard once you get the beginning strats down. Mid-game is just a reactive mix of archon/DA with maelstrom/HT with storm/zealot/goons, throw in a reaver in a shuttle if you really want to make the T miserable.
In the end, the PZ team wins because TZ vs PZ requires about 100x more effort out of the T than it does out of the P. TZ was in a position to win (and I think should have won) from the 12 minute mark onwards but couldn't close it out, mostly because the T couldn't keep up with the control. Fucking up for 1/2 a second and losing everything to a single storm is definitely one of the most frustrating experiences in BW.
@Christanthemum thank you so much for your analysis here. It really adds perspective to what I saw in the replay that I watched a few times.
One thing that stands out to me that I am curious about - you mention that both Zerg went for armor as opposed to attack for their Muta, but I was of the impression that it makes more sense to get attack (unless facing Corsair). Is this something I am completely wrong about, and can you give me some insight as to why? Thank you once again.
+armor is typically justified by the idea (beyond +1 armor being useful in general vs everything) that it will reduce the damage of each enemy muta bounce in muta vs muta fights. I think +attack is not bad either though, and it's also cheaper at 100/100 instead of 150/150. In general if it's laggy or difficult to control or you're not a great muta microer armor is just easier, you get the benefit 100% of the time, but if you're confident in your muta micro +1 attack isn't bad--its really good vs Terran MM, but obviously in 2v2 you have another opponent to deal with. Level 1 upgrades take ~170 seconds to upgrade--Teal could have had +1 of either done and started +1 of the other and still had 1/1 before White had 1/0 if he had eco'd properly at the start.
On January 09 2018 10:45 Chrysanthemum wrote: +armor is typically justified by the idea (beyond +1 armor being useful in general vs everything) that it will reduce the damage of each enemy muta bounce in muta vs muta fights. I think +attack is not bad either though, and it's also cheaper at 100/100 instead of 150/150. In general if it's laggy or difficult to control or you're not a great muta microer armor is just easier, you get the benefit 100% of the time, but if you're confident in your muta micro +1 attack isn't bad--its really good vs Terran MM, but obviously in 2v2 you have another opponent to deal with. Level 1 upgrades take ~170 seconds to upgrade--Teal could have had +1 of either done and started +1 of the other and still had 1/1 before White had 1/0 if he had eco'd properly at the start.
Thank you, I suspected as much. It simply seems like +1 attack makes more sense because I believe you need 1 fewer Muta in your stack to 1-shot many opposing units, and the corollary to what you said (+1 armor benefits against every Muta attack bounce) is also true with +1 attack benefiting every ricochet if I'm not mistaken? You do make a solid point about lag/control and the fact that armor is permanent and inherent, though.
Armor is useful vs. goliaths since they have TWO missiles.
You would think it's 20 damage down to 19 / 2 = 9.5 damage because of explosive, but it's actually 20 damage down to 10 because of explosive in two 5 damage rockets down to two 4 damage rockets so now it's 8 damage. They get 4 damage per upgrade to air, so it cancels out, but that's a huge difference either way.
armor is subtracted before size calculations come into play. Armor vs goliath makes it go from 2x10 to 2x9 and then divided in half. So the damage is still only reduced from 10 to 9 even with goliaths having two attacks.
Muta ricochets are given fractions of upgrades. I don't know the exact number but it feels like 1/3 of an upgrade and 1/9 of an upgrade - so when you have +3 attack, the 9-3-1 has turned into 12-4-1.333. But +1 attack is only 10-3.333-1.1111
On January 09 2018 10:45 Chrysanthemum wrote: +armor is typically justified by the idea (beyond +1 armor being useful in general vs everything) that it will reduce the damage of each enemy muta bounce in muta vs muta fights. I think +attack is not bad either though, and it's also cheaper at 100/100 instead of 150/150. In general if it's laggy or difficult to control or you're not a great muta microer armor is just easier, you get the benefit 100% of the time, but if you're confident in your muta micro +1 attack isn't bad--its really good vs Terran MM, but obviously in 2v2 you have another opponent to deal with. Level 1 upgrades take ~170 seconds to upgrade--Teal could have had +1 of either done and started +1 of the other and still had 1/1 before White had 1/0 if he had eco'd properly at the start.
Thank you, I suspected as much. It simply seems like +1 attack makes more sense because I believe you need 1 fewer Muta in your stack to 1-shot many opposing units, and the corollary to what you said (+1 armor benefits against every Muta attack bounce) is also true with +1 attack benefiting every ricochet if I'm not mistaken? You do make a solid point about lag/control and the fact that armor is permanent and inherent, though.
It's particularly strong against bio because with +1 4 mutas can 1 shot a marine instead of 5, which makes the hold position style of micro much stronger and a higher chance to kill 2+ marines per shot. In terms of focus fire though, I think with 11 muta the only thing that will take fewer shots to kill is a turret (will die immediately in 2 11 muta volleys instead of burning down afterwards). I guess it also allows 8 mutas to one shot a 0/0 hydra instead of 9 mutas.
And Eriador is correct, I believe mutas damage is simply calculated as 3 bounces with each one being 1/3 of the previous, so each +1 adds +1, +.33 and +.165 to the bounces respectively
I didn't know about this TL Plus thing before you gave it to me, but thanks.
On January 09 2018 12:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: armor is subtracted before size calculations come into play. Armor vs goliath makes it go from 2x10 to 2x9 and then divided in half. So the damage is still only reduced from 10 to 9 even with goliaths having two attacks.
Muta ricochets are given fractions of upgrades. I don't know the exact number but it feels like 1/3 of an upgrade and 1/9 of an upgrade - so when you have +3 attack, the 9-3-1 has turned into 12-4-1.333. But +1 attack is only 10-3.333-1.1111
oh, yeah, that's right, so it's 10 to 9 reduction only
the muta damage works like this:
9-3-1 8-2-0.5 7-1-0.5
10-3.3-1.1 9-2.3-0.5 8-1.3-0.5
11-3.6-1.2 10-2.6-0.5 9-1.6-0.5
12-4-1.3 11-3-0.5 10-2-0.5
so yes, it's actually 1/3, but 0.5 damage is the smallest amount you can take (you can take fractional damage, but not sure to how many decimal points)
Hello and good morning all! I have just submitted for event approval on TL calendar: RTL2 Week 1&2 cast on Saturday, 1/13/18, 12:00 PM PST.
Hopefully this gets approved and I can prepare for potential cast after work tonight (setting up my new system, QAing, etc) so initial cast lunch can go well!
YouTube VODs will be provided for the matches I cast sometime after the actual live cast.
On January 13 2018 06:26 SchAmToo wrote: ALSO: Please, people, if you want me to cast your series do so by sending me NON-SPOILER REPLAY PACKS.
But isn't any replay pack spoiler-free by themselves given that all five matches are only bo1? Or am I missing something? (well, ok, if one match is a walkover it might be something different).
I've selected random teams to send the replays so replay text doesn't give out winners in team games and I'm trying to rename reps starting week 2 onwards for casters so the replays don't give any spoilers.
On January 13 2018 06:26 SchAmToo wrote: Speaking of, I'm working on figuring out a schedule to cast whatever people want me to cast on Sunday. I haven't done it in a bit so I'm a bit rusty.
I asked SNM if he wanted to join me, but unsure of who to use as a cocaster, if not solo. If you wanna cocast reach out.
ALSO: Please, people, if you want me to cast your series do so by sending me NON-SPOILER REPLAY PACKS.
I will, of course, cast TBD's series incredibly biased, so don't take it seriously.
I'm down to cast with you
Of course, I'll make fun of my team members if we get to those matches
On January 14 2018 14:03 iopq wrote: Guys, there are 5 matches played since every game counts. Don't cut it off at 3-0 or 3-1, because other games count too.
While I would like to ideally cast all the games, I don't have all the time and resource in the world. I did a 5 hour cast today to feature both week 1 and week 2. And then I was late to my evening meeting....
On January 14 2018 14:03 iopq wrote: Guys, there are 5 matches played since every game counts. Don't cut it off at 3-0 or 3-1, because other games count too.
While I would like to ideally cast all the games, I don't have all the time and resource in the world. I did a 5 hour cast today to feature both week 1 and week 2. And then I was late to my evening meeting....
so ask around which games have already been casted and schedule who does which ones
On January 14 2018 14:03 iopq wrote: Guys, there are 5 matches played since every game counts. Don't cut it off at 3-0 or 3-1, because other games count too.
While I would like to ideally cast all the games, I don't have all the time and resource in the world. I did a 5 hour cast today to feature both week 1 and week 2. And then I was late to my evening meeting....
so ask around which games have already been casted and schedule who does which ones
When I asked around, no one casted anything yet for this tourney and no one has any plans or schedule to cast. I even asked around for recommendations which no one gave which is why I spun that silly wheel.
While I appreciate constructive criticism (and there's probably some amount), until I have some kind of direction from the heads of this tourney and other casters, I'm just going to go off how I see it fit since that's better than no direction or no cast at all.
So if you like all games to be casted, please ask the other casters to do so or feel free to give casting a go!
On January 14 2018 14:03 iopq wrote: Guys, there are 5 matches played since every game counts. Don't cut it off at 3-0 or 3-1, because other games count too.
While I would like to ideally cast all the games, I don't have all the time and resource in the world. I did a 5 hour cast today to feature both week 1 and week 2. And then I was late to my evening meeting....
so ask around which games have already been casted and schedule who does which ones
When I asked around, no one casted anything yet for this tourney and no one has any plans or schedule to cast. I even asked around for recommendations which no one gave which is why I spun that silly wheel.
While I appreciate constructive criticism (and there's probably some amount), until I have some kind of direction from the heads of this tourney and other casters, I'm just going to go off how I see it fit since that's better than no direction or no cast at all.
So if you like all games to be casted, please ask the other casters to do so or feel free to give casting a go!
I apologize for my banter during TBD vs TR. It was too aggressive. I tried to be cheeky and fun and it came out not as such. I'll work on it so it gets across how biased I am without causing hurt feelings.
On January 15 2018 10:52 SchAmToo wrote: Thanks for tuning in!
I apologize for my banter during TBD vs TR. It was too aggressive. I tried to be cheeky and fun and it came out not as such. I'll work on it so it gets across how biased I am without causing hurt feelings.
If you have any comments questions concerns, please let me know.
Thank you for your stream and putting up the vod!
You had the wrong score in the end, though. When we played vs. inae you swapped the overlay for the 2v2 which was good because we were in blue with allied colors turned on. However, you didn't adjust the score accordingly, as our member RED.BLUEGREEN mentioned in the chat. So we, Team Red, went into the 2v2 with a score of + Show Spoiler +
1-2. We won the 2v2 so the score was 2-2 and finally we also won the 3v3 so the overall score was 3-2 instead of 4-1 I mean, this isn't the reporting thread so it's not that big of a deal and lets us shine brighter than the 3-2 victory xD
I just wanted to point that out So thanks again for your efforts!
On January 15 2018 10:52 SchAmToo wrote: Thanks for tuning in!
I apologize for my banter during TBD vs TR. It was too aggressive. I tried to be cheeky and fun and it came out not as such. I'll work on it so it gets across how biased I am without causing hurt feelings.
If you have any comments questions concerns, please let me know.
Thank you for your stream and putting up the vod!
You had the wrong score in the end, though. When we played vs. inae you swapped the overlay for the 2v2 which was good because we were in blue with allied colors turned on. However, you didn't adjust the score accordingly, as our member RED.BLUEGREEN mentioned in the chat. So we, Team Red, went into the 2v2 with a score of + Show Spoiler +
1-2. We won the 2v2 so the score was 2-2 and finally we also won the 3v3 so the overall score was 3-2 instead of 4-1 I mean, this isn't the reporting thread so it's not that big of a deal and lets us shine brighter than the 3-2 victory xD
I just wanted to point that out So thanks again for your efforts!
I think you'll find I'm never incorrect ever and that you are, in fact, wrong.
(Thanks for feedback, I coulda swore I counted correctly)
On January 15 2018 10:52 SchAmToo wrote: Thanks for tuning in!
I apologize for my banter during TBD vs TR. It was too aggressive. I tried to be cheeky and fun and it came out not as such. I'll work on it so it gets across how biased I am without causing hurt feelings.
If you have any comments questions concerns, please let me know.
Thank you for your stream and putting up the vod!
You had the wrong score in the end, though. When we played vs. inae you swapped the overlay for the 2v2 which was good because we were in blue with allied colors turned on. However, you didn't adjust the score accordingly, as our member RED.BLUEGREEN mentioned in the chat. So we, Team Red, went into the 2v2 with a score of + Show Spoiler +
1-2. We won the 2v2 so the score was 2-2 and finally we also won the 3v3 so the overall score was 3-2 instead of 4-1 I mean, this isn't the reporting thread so it's not that big of a deal and lets us shine brighter than the 3-2 victory xD
I just wanted to point that out So thanks again for your efforts!
I think you'll find I'm never incorrect ever and that you are, in fact, wrong.
(Thanks for feedback, I coulda swore I counted correctly)
Technically, you counted correctly. You just didn't swap both the teams and the scores
Its the start of week 5 and this week has Clay Fields in the map pool. Incase you didnt see already, be sure to grab the latest download for the Observer version of the map. It fixes the fog of war so that creep cannot be seen. Download: http://www.panschk.de/mappage/maps/(4)Clay Fields0p93(o).scm
This is still labelled as version 0.93 because the melee version and the map itself is unchanged. Id recommend just directly replacing the old file with this one.
I updated OP and we are officially more than halfway done with the league now that we are on week 5.
Big thanks to everyone who has helped me. QS, schamtoo, nina with casting. keen, seriosity with organizing. Foxhan for the new images. Jukado for maps. All the team leaders and players who have been very prompt with sending me replays, and everyone being super polite and well mannered. Things would have been a lot more difficult without all that help.
On the topic of the league itself, I spent a lot of time making considerations on how to improve for the next RTL, and unfortunately I came to the conclusion that it is likely if I do host another tournament like this the format will have to completely change. I think with how I organized it, there is no way to avoid very large flaws. I do not think with the current rating system in SC:R, we have any accurate way of judging skill other than a rough picture via starlog, and personal opinion. This in combination with a skill-restricted league where it is in a team's best interest to bring in the strongest players they can be allowed via the rules sets a near impossible precedent of making a "fair" league. I've tried different ways to sort of patch this after the league started (having people vote, consulting friends, talking with team leaders about their players) and in the end, it is mostly futile. However, I'm somewhat satisfied with how this league turned out, and it is just for fun so I think ultimately it is okay as long as people are enjoying themselves.
With that being said, I am definitely going to host RTL 3 as a draft and forming teams that way. Until I figure out a fair way to host a league that has a skill ceiling, I believe a draft would be in the best interest of all the players and encourage even lower MMR players to join. I said "no fucking way" to this idea originally for RTL1 & 2, but I took a complete 180 and a big reason for this on top of seeing how RTL2 is turning out is the fact that discord has been such a great organizational tool and one of my biggest fears of hosting a drafted league is organization and having players be able to contact each other easily and not losing interest, etc. When this league ends, I'll gauge the interest of this and see if some people would like to help me organize it as I want to continue making tournaments/leagues for the foreign scene and improve on them as much as possible.
On January 23 2018 04:58 SCC-Faust wrote: I updated OP and we are officially more than halfway done with the league now that we are on week 5.
Big thanks to everyone who has helped me. QS, schamtoo, nina with casting. keen, seriosity with organizing. Foxhan for the new images. Jukado for maps. All the team leaders and players who have been very prompt with sending me replays, and everyone being super polite and well mannered. Things would have been a lot more difficult without all that help.
On the topic of the league itself, I spent a lot of time making considerations on how to improve for the next RTL, and unfortunately I came to the conclusion that it is likely if I do host another tournament like this the format will have to completely change. I think with how I organized it, there is no way to avoid very large flaws. I do not think with the current rating system in SC:R, we have any accurate way of judging skill other than a rough picture via starlog, and personal opinion. This in combination with a skill-restricted league where it is in a team's best interest to bring in the strongest players they can be allowed via the rules sets a near impossible precedent of making a "fair" league. I've tried different ways to sort of patch this after the league started (having people vote, consulting friends, talking with team leaders about their players) and in the end, it is mostly futile. However, I'm somewhat satisfied with how this league turned out, and it is just for fun so I think ultimately it is okay as long as people are enjoying themselves.
With that being said, I am definitely going to host RTL 3 as a draft and forming teams that way. Until I figure out a fair way to host a league that has a skill ceiling, I believe a draft would be in the best interest of all the players and encourage even lower MMR players to join. I said "no fucking way" to this idea originally for RTL1 & 2, but I took a complete 180 and a big reason for this on top of seeing how RTL2 is turning out is the fact that discord has been such a great organizational tool and one of my biggest fears of hosting a drafted league is organization and having players be able to contact each other easily and not losing interest, etc. When this league ends, I'll gauge the interest of this and see if some people would like to help me organize it as I want to continue making tournaments/leagues for the foreign scene and improve on them as much as possible.
To be honest there is no way of balancing a skill restricted league, as the very nature of trying to be the best of the "not so good" players has some logical flaws. I think the best thing to do is what BWCL tried to achieve after many iterations: have seperate leagues to qualify into, advance or get kicked to a lower tier. Now i know this is not possible for RTL, but to be honest i think it looks quite promising this season. There are actually many close results so far and only a few exceptions of players that are definitely too strong. So good job on your part actually!
It's never gonna be perfect but the easiest solution imo is once everything is said and done, get the top 8-10 players whatever, maybe do a small tour for them just to see who was the MVP or whatever, but then have them seeded 1-8 etc and have them draft for players.
That way you know every team has atleast 1 "ace" and the balance of "good" players is spread out evenly and you don't have a team stacked with "good" players. Idk rough idea but I think it's a good one that incorporates what you're trying to do with the draft and keep it competitive.
As of right now its either, a team is a clan, or a group of friends, and if a clan or group of friends is better than everyone they probably won't lose.
On January 24 2018 01:08 NbSky wrote: It's never gonna be perfect but the easiest solution imo is once everything is said and done, get the top 8-10 players whatever, maybe do a small tour for them just to see who was the MVP or whatever, but then have them seeded 1-8 etc and have them draft for players.
That way you know every team has atleast 1 "ace" and the balance of "good" players is spread out evenly and you don't have a team stacked with "good" players. Idk rough idea but I think it's a good one that incorporates what you're trying to do with the draft and keep it competitive.
As of right now its either, a team is a clan, or a group of friends, and if a clan or group of friends is better than everyone they probably won't lose.
The obvious problem is and has been that those clans sign up as a clan for a reason. Do you think that the mesija players will gladly be cut up among different teams, abandoning their clan and their language background? No.
In past low level leagues, people would pretty much huff and puff and put their foot down saying "I won't play at all of it's not with [same group of noobs I've been playing with for years]." Some people have that mentality; I guess they may be either very socially driven (the fun of BW for them comes in large part due to the microcommunity they play with) or are very socially stunted (joining a new team, having to play with new people, is unpleasant to them). Whatever the reason, it's a fundamental obstacle that has always been surprisingly consistent throughout years.
In short, a draft will surely be the best idea like yours is surely good in the blueprints, but in reality will push away a large number of current participants who otherwise are of the appropriate skill level and have the desire to play. It's important to keep these ideas in a balance.
Updated info for week 6. We finally have rematches.
Also a huge thanks to schamtoo and littlechava for casting/organizing. Esp when I was gone this weekend. I really appreciate people take time out of their day to help make this league more enjoyable for everyone while asking nothing in return. We have 3 more weeks to go and then RTL is over. I'm spending this time to go over what went well and what went wrong with this league and will try my best to make RTL 3 a lot better. Also a huge thanks to all the teams for showing up, being mannered, and helping me out with results.
On January 23 2018 04:58 SCC-Faust wrote: I updated OP and we are officially more than halfway done with the league now that we are on week 5.
Big thanks to everyone who has helped me. QS, schamtoo, nina with casting. keen, seriosity with organizing. Foxhan for the new images. Jukado for maps. All the team leaders and players who have been very prompt with sending me replays, and everyone being super polite and well mannered. Things would have been a lot more difficult without all that help.
On the topic of the league itself, I spent a lot of time making considerations on how to improve for the next RTL, and unfortunately I came to the conclusion that it is likely if I do host another tournament like this the format will have to completely change. I think with how I organized it, there is no way to avoid very large flaws. I do not think with the current rating system in SC:R, we have any accurate way of judging skill other than a rough picture via starlog, and personal opinion. This in combination with a skill-restricted league where it is in a team's best interest to bring in the strongest players they can be allowed via the rules sets a near impossible precedent of making a "fair" league. I've tried different ways to sort of patch this after the league started (having people vote, consulting friends, talking with team leaders about their players) and in the end, it is mostly futile. However, I'm somewhat satisfied with how this league turned out, and it is just for fun so I think ultimately it is okay as long as people are enjoying themselves.
With that being said, I am definitely going to host RTL 3 as a draft and forming teams that way. Until I figure out a fair way to host a league that has a skill ceiling, I believe a draft would be in the best interest of all the players and encourage even lower MMR players to join. I said "no fucking way" to this idea originally for RTL1 & 2, but I took a complete 180 and a big reason for this on top of seeing how RTL2 is turning out is the fact that discord has been such a great organizational tool and one of my biggest fears of hosting a drafted league is organization and having players be able to contact each other easily and not losing interest, etc. When this league ends, I'll gauge the interest of this and see if some people would like to help me organize it as I want to continue making tournaments/leagues for the foreign scene and improve on them as much as possible.
At some point I ("we")'d really like to respond to this, in a manner of exchanging experiences. Anyhow, since there have been fewer than ten replies, let's just say one thing: you did great. Keep that stuff rolling out, you're an amazing person!
To other bystanders: silently appreciating doesn't show for him, he does so tremendously good, post everytime you nod in appreciation, just so Faust knows he contributes so much and does his xtra-monstrous mile for the cause of making BW great again!
Here is a small update: Week 7 results, match-ups, and maps updated.
There will be a lot of repeats this week, and I realize some teams have only played a small portion of teams. This is how the format goes, since certain teams will be congregated in the top 5 or bottom 5. This also is probably the most important week of all cause of how close the top 6 teams are within each other. There are no playoffs, and week 8 will determine the final places of each team. 1 vs 2 will be the gold vs silver matchup, and 3 vs 4 will be the bronze vs honorary 4th spot.
Updating rosters
I haven't updated the rosters because I'm lazy but also because it didn't seem that important to me with how unsuccessful my methods were for putting a skill cap on the league. Every team in this league has been very well mannered and has competed fairly, so I didn't feel the need to revise and add people to rosters after a certain point because no one was sneaking in big giants and stacking their team or giving anyone problems. However, since these next two weeks are going to be the most important, I just ask teams remain faithful to the current league skill level.
RTL 3
I know it would probably be more wise to discuss how the league went after it ends, but I want to start RTL3 shortly after RTL2 ends so there is no downtime. I would like peoples opinions of what they liked, what they didn't like, and things they would do differently. This can be format, time, or anything. I am strongly leaning towards a draft for RTL3 on another week 8 period just to test that format compared to this one and the format in RTL 1, and moving forward with the format that worked best and is most liked.
It'd be cool if higher ranked players could offrace in RTL3, at least if they have a ton of games played on ladder to prove they suck at the race and won't improve quickly.
For people who don't check the discord, I'm reposting this here:
I just finished a small spreadsheet of individual records. It is missing chunks of information here and there that I recorded. If you see something missing and by chance have it, please message it to me. I know a lot of it is my fault and is probably sitting in my DMs, and I will be sifting through them in the next few days. There are two pages to this google sheets, an individual stats page, and then a "most valuable players" sheet. You can change them at the bottom left. Here is the link to the spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/TX33J3
For information on what is currently missing, here is what did not make it into the stats and why they may look wrong: https://pastebin.com/z6ehkryz
Also there is a possibility some information is entered wrong. I did a combination of replays and bwchart, and bwchart has a ton of wrong information it seems, even to the point where it says the wrong person writing text (in the case that makes this extremely problematic, I was going through finding who left or said "gg" first to determine the victor). If your stats don't look right and I may have made an error, please let me know. I tried to double check everything so hopefully it is all correct and just incomplete
31st January 2018 Version 1.0 Clay Fields -Improved rocky ground deco. -Added 2 buildable tiles to the north nats, allowing an extra cannon. -Added 1 unbuildable tile to the north nats, preventing bunker behind the mineral line possibility. -Added a few buildable tiles on the path to 3rd, giving some extra walling options with depots etc. -Minor deco.
On February 09 2018 21:00 Jukado wrote: Week 8 starts in a few days (with Clay Fields in the pool that week). Be sure to grab the finished Version 1.0 of the map.
Apologies to Faust and the players in this tour. I would have waited until the league was over before uploading but the ASL5 map request prompted it.
31st January 2018 Version 1.0 Clay Fields -Improved rocky ground deco. -Added 2 buildable tiles to the north nats, allowing an extra cannon. -Added 1 unbuildable tile to the north nats, preventing bunker behind the mineral line possibility. -Added a few buildable tiles on the path to 3rd, giving some extra walling options with depots etc. -Minor deco.
Doesn't 7 come before 8 anymore? It's Week 7 that starts in a few days so maps will be: Week 7: February 11th, Sunday 3pm EDT [Uzi Sara / Neo Electric Circuit / Dante's Peak] [Python] [The Hunters]
First off I want to say that you've done an awesome job running the league and it's been tons of fun. Looking forward to RTL3 and will be happy to participate.
I think the idea of a draft is a good one, especially if this is going to be a recurring league and players will have accurate stats of their performance. I know that a lot of people want to play on a team with their friends, but I think having a distribution of player skill level on each team is more beneficial than keeping buddies together for a league like this. Not like you can't still practice with each other during the week.
One thing I would really like changed is the line-up submission format. One of the most exciting things about the CPL was knowing who your opponent would be a week before the match. That allowed people to focus their practice and it improved the quality of games. It requires a higher level of commitment since people will have to know their schedules in advance, but I would love to see lineups submitted earlier than on the day of play.
Last thought is regarding the team games. I personally don't really have any interest in playing or watching 3v3 and only a minor interest in 2v2. I think it's fine to have something quirky thrown into the mix (I understand you really wanted team melee), but maybe there are better options than big team games? If I'm in the minority on this then I'm fine with leaving them in the format and sitting them out.
On February 10 2018 02:07 PiSan wrote: First off I want to say that you've done an awesome job running the league and it's been tons of fun. Looking forward to RTL3 and will be happy to participate.
I think the idea of a draft is a good one, especially if this is going to be a recurring league and players will have accurate stats of their performance. I know that a lot of people want to play on a team with their friends, but I think having a distribution of player skill level on each team is more beneficial than keeping buddies together for a league like this. Not like you can't still practice with each other during the week.
One thing I would really like changed is the line-up submission format. One of the most exciting things about the CPL was knowing who your opponent would be a week before the match. That allowed people to focus their practice and it improved the quality of games. It requires a higher level of commitment since people will have to know their schedules in advance, but I would love to see lineups submitted earlier than on the day of play.
Last thought is regarding the team games. I personally don't really have any interest in playing or watching 3v3 and only a minor interest in 2v2. I think it's fine to have something quirky thrown into the mix (I understand you really wanted team melee), but maybe there are better options than big team games? If I'm in the minority on this then I'm fine with leaving them in the format and sitting them out.
Thanks again for running the RTL Faust!
I gotta say that I like the 2v2 and 3v3 a lot in this league for both playing AND watching. It's cool that standings are not decided by 1v1s only. Also, it happened twice for our team that the 3v3 was the deciding factor when we went with a 2-2 tie into the deciding 3v3. It's even more intense to play it out. The 3v3s aren't like BGH no rush 20 games. They're super fast paced and really anything can happen because both teams WANT to win. I play 2v2s from time to time, rarely 3v3 tho. But in this league, it's so much more fun So yeah, that's my opinion regarding the team games. Overall I can say, that I really liked the format and the way this league has been running so far
@RedW4rr10r: You might have just been joking (internet ambiguity means your comment can be interpreted in 2 ways) but just to be clear: The way I would word it is that we are in week 7 at the moment. Sunday Feb 11th is the day week 7 ends. So on Sunday is the climax of week 7, rather than the start. Im talking about Monday as the start of week 8 being in a few days, when players might want to start practicing on the map.
Can confirm, good games above^ thanks SchAmToo. Fazers vs Sigrun spoiler:+ Show Spoiler +
holy ultras!
Quick reminder, be sure to grab version 1.0 of Clay Fields for your practice games this week and the final on Sunday, good luck. Download (4)Clay Fields from this page
Updated match-ups for the final week. A ton of these matches will be repeats, and in some cases there will be repeats for the third time. After trying to set up this week, I decided to lock in points as it would be really unfair to let teams still surpass each other in the finals week (in a situation where the 1st and 2nd place team have an even match, and the 3rd and 4th place match has a sweep which could result in 3rd or 4th place team moving to 1st for the season is not something I want).
In the the case of the top four teams, the top two match-ups are repeats even from last week. If I remember right, Red and iRk are 1-1 with both of their matches going 3-2. This is the same situation with TeS and GIR. These repeats will basically be the tie breakers and decide who is going home with the gold, silver, and bronze imaginary internet medals.
I have altered the format a little to make this week be a bit more hype. I added an extra 1v1 match and an ACE match in the situation the matches go 3-3. YOU MAY USE SOMEONE YOU ALREADY PLAYED IN THE ACE MATCH. This is not the case for the 4th 1v1. So teams will need to bring at least 4 players to this final clan war.
I am in the process of re-updating the google sheet with the stats to make sure everything is right. I started from ground 0, and I'm trying to make it a little more comprehensive to be sure I don't get anything wrong. This will not be released until the final week gets casted. I will provide this sheet so everyone can check it out and see how they did. I am not using the old google sheet, but a new one, so you will not see any changes until it is all complete.
RTL 3 threads will be made near the end of February, so continued feedback in this thread after RTL2 ends would be greatly appreciated. As I said before, I am definitely going with a different format.
Ye GGWP all teams. Was a very fun and mannered league and a nailbiter :D I was sitting and waiting for the score of my team mates nervously countless times :D One of the best team leagues I have participated in. Thank you very much Faust! You did an amazing job
After that excellent game between Fazers and Sigrun in week 7, we get lucky with a rematch between them in week 8! Its at the start of the first vod above. Another great TvZ and it showcases the map really well. + Show Spoiler +
zerg choosing to take the close 3rd base (though admittedly this is more common after terrans opening anyway, and cross spawn encourages further), using the hills as staging areas etc and just in general to see a late game balanced TvZ
A real treat for me, thanks guys.
Faust <3. As I said before, do consider taking a break after all that. Even if its just a fortnight or a month. Id say you deserve a bowl of icecream and some jellybeans too. Congrats to the winners.
On February 20 2018 07:43 Jukado wrote: After that excellent game between Fazers and Sigrun in week 7, we get lucky with a rematch between them in week 8! Its at the start of the first vod above. Another great TvZ and it showcases the map really well. + Show Spoiler +
zerg choosing to take the close 3rd base (though admittedly this is more common after terrans opening anyway, and cross spawn encourages further), using the hills as staging grounds etc and just in general to see a late game balanced TvZ
A real treat for me, thanks guys.
Faust <3. As I said before, do consider taking a break after all that. Even if its just a fortnight or a month. Id say you deserve a bowl of icecream and some jellybeans too. Congrats to the winners.
Thank you for giving us the opportunity to play on this map. I actually really much enjoyed it and played a few RvR's with Jealous on it too. Overall a solid and fun experience.
On February 20 2018 07:43 Jukado wrote: After that excellent game between Fazers and Sigrun in week 7, we get lucky with a rematch between them in week 8! Its at the start of the first vod above. Another great TvZ and it showcases the map really well. + Show Spoiler +
zerg choosing to take the close 3rd base (though admittedly this is more common after terrans opening anyway, and cross spawn encourages further), using the hills as staging grounds etc and just in general to see a late game balanced TvZ
A real treat for me, thanks guys.
Faust <3. As I said before, do consider taking a break after all that. Even if its just a fortnight or a month. Id say you deserve a bowl of icecream and some jellybeans too. Congrats to the winners.
Thank you for giving us the opportunity to play on this map. I actually really much enjoyed it and played a few RvR's with Jealous on it too. Overall a solid and fun experience.
@Jukado: Here are the replays of me vs. Fazers and me vs. AoT from RTL:
I really like this map, honestly much more than any other foreign-made map I've played thus far I think. It has a great mix of standard elements from FS/CB and some original terrain/nuance. While not all of the replays demonstrate the use of the map to its fullest, I think that they serve as a testament to how flexible play on it can be because of its unrestrictive and standard nature. Good work.