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Please guys, stay on topic.
This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. |
I think everyone can agree integration is essential. And you need a plan, a society can't just "wing it". Also, someone has to pay for it, it's just the reality of things. From a moral standpoint it's impossible to argue against saving people, sure, but that's a rather vague concept down in the dirt of urban social life and its trends that can swing (mostly for the worse) in a matter of decades.
Then, there is the separate issue of fostering what is essentially a religious polarity within a country, and with it a massive anchor against "real cultural integration", which is why I'm absolutely positive building mosques in Europe is a bad longterm idea anyway you look at it.
The way I see it, a people who don't share a core "mythology", even when that's the idiot consumerist ideology we've been sharing, are doomed to fail as "a people", whatever that means.
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Ok the header reminded me I'm hijacking the discussion
Happy to hear about what sounds like the prospect of peace in Syria.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
"Peace" in a relative sense, at least. Still going to be a fractured mess of a country but at least it looks like the terror cells are slowly but surely being rooted out.
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On April 06 2018 00:28 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2018 00:14 Kickboxer wrote: Most likely though you need to consider 3 fundamental factors:
- Switzerland is ridiculously wealthy - Most people from the Balkans spoke passable English and were culturally compatible, some even came with a "Swiss Dream" narrative - The numbers / ratios weren't really that high
We likely had a similar situation in Slovenia (where things also worked out quite well with a sizeable influx of 'war immigrants', though I have to say the culture of our capital, for example, changed beyond recognition in the sense of becoming 30% more "balkan" in its urban or 'cultural' expression; a subject whose implications and valuation could be discussed), but it was still a very rough period with, for example, a drastic increase in violent petty crime. And that's with no major cultural barriers in play - we'd practically shared a country with these people. English didn't help you much in switzerland during the nineties. The numbers and cultural diffrences were high enough for the right wing to declare the end of switzerland allready . While we were very wealthy, ee struggled with a recession during the 90ies. Important policy was: No Ghettos, mx the people in as much as possible. Will it work again? Who knows. It looks bad for germany tho, they allready failed with the turks.
I don't understand why EU countries dont HAVE CHILDREN. The rate to keep the population stable is to have 2.1 children per mother. Then you wouldn't have to immigrate people to your countries, people who to be honest do not care for the laws of the country, who only keep to themselves and do not want to intermingle with the rest of the population.
Not having children will raise the average age of the country, increase pressure on the dwinling working population to pay taxes for social services, reduce the amount of work force therefore reducing a countries economic power, and that's only the economic side, which I honestly don't care about.
What is going to happen to the culture, traditions, religion, history, etc of all these countries ? There isn't going to be anyone to pass it down to. There is already news everyday of people who feel like strangers in their own country.
Everyone always complains about overpopulation, but why must EU countries take the hit & not have children ? The rest of the world isn't stopping (Africa anyone ?).
Anyway, I'm glad that these 'opposition groups' are being wiped out. If they were to take power, it would mean destruction for every other minority in Syria. There is a reason why all non-sunni people support Assad, and even half the Syrian army is made up of Sunnis.
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The same reason people in the white folks US don't have kids, lack of money, free time and stability. It is hard in every country to work and raise kids. Migrants are a solution, but the other one is to pay people more and provide more time off for raise the next generation. But there is no quick fix for that cultural problem, so migrants are a short term solution that can turn into a long term solution. And the traditions of nations survived thousands of years and even trips across the ocean to the Americas, they will make it through a population decline.
We will see what happens in Syria. I am worried about what the new Assad regime will do after stability is obtained.
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Uhm, either everything I ever read on the topic is wrong, or you just made that up. People with good education and jobs have less and later children than poor ones. Money isn't the issue at all, people just set their priorities differently when they have the options to do so.
And btw. the rest of the World is in fact stopping/slowing down - including Africa.
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On April 06 2018 11:34 Plansix wrote: The same reason people in the white folks US don't have kids, lack of money, free time and stability. It is hard in every country to work and raise kids. Migrants are a solution, but the other one is to pay people more and provide more time off for raise the next generation. But there is no quick fix for that cultural problem, so migrants are a short term solution that can turn into a long term solution. And the traditions of nations survived thousands of years and even trips across the ocean to the Americas, they will make it through a population decline.
We will see what happens in Syria. I am worried about what the new Assad regime will do after stability is obtained. 'migrants are a short term solution' to 'the white folks in US lack of money'; the other two of your raised issues are self enforced. stability can be fairly easily provided by the state which you hate and want less of and free time is killed by capitalism which you love and want more of.
migrants will work for minimum wage because as minimum as it is, its still (sometimes)10 times higher than in their native country. the second generation of natives will do the same, the third probably too but around the 4th, they'll also want/demand bigger salaries. so what you do then?, bring another wave of immigrants obviously; it's not like you're going to increase the buying power of the population, that'd be preposterous.
Assad will snipe the rebel leaders(be it ideological or military ones) based on the wast network of intelligence he has going there but he realizes he needs people and lots of them. he can't afford to be petty and vengeful if that's why you're worried about.
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Of course the real reason why immigration is needed is because most of these countries that do need immigrants have an insane ponzi scheme pension scheme that relies on either a permanantly booming population or massive economic growth that outstrips inflation. But that is besides the point as people are emigrating out of Syria not because of economic prospects (Syria had relatively decent standards of living before the war and many were well educated), but because there is a WAR in the country.
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On April 06 2018 14:53 Velr wrote: Uhm, either everything I ever read on the topic is wrong, or you just made that up. People with good education and jobs have less and later children than poor ones. Money isn't the issue at all, people just set their priorities differently when they have the options to do so.
And btw. the rest of the World is in fact stopping/slowing down - including Africa. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/23/baby-crisis-europe-brink-depopulation-disaster
It was from a guardian article from 2015 that listed a number of factors. I believe that people with good incomes and education are less likely to have children because doing so would cause one them to lose that income and no longer use that education. They have to pick between a career or children.
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But thats not at all what you said? They are allowed to pick between career and children, thats a big freedom that is a pretty recent development.
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If a house hold is unwilling to give up around 30-50% of their income, while increasing the household costs, I believe the concerns about long term economic stability are implied.
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Yes, for poor people but these tend to have kids anyway despite the financial problems that come with them. Meanwhile high earning couples wouldn't have an issue at all but often chose their "DINK" lifestyle over children or settle for just one child.
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I doubt there is any single cause we can cite that will be universal. But it is a dynamic that is present a lot of modernized countries. South Korea’s birth rate is also in decline, so it isn’t even a problem unique to the EU/US. My best bet would be that broadly, our governments have not put a focus on building new infrastructure and services to encourage an expanding population, while the market seems to have moved to a two income household standard.
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On April 06 2018 22:48 Plansix wrote: If a house hold is unwilling to give up around 30-50% of their income, while increasing the household costs, I believe the concerns about long term economic stability are implied.
I think Velr's point is that this is a consequence of women having the option to pick between career and family, instead of being defaulted to the latter. To say that couples aren't having children because they lack money is to ignore that, absent the choice, they would in fact be having more children, even if overall household income would be lower.
I agree with you in that for a middle class woman faced with the choice, money matters, given current income. But if next year the same woman was promoted and now has a higher income, she's less, not more, likely than before to have a child, so it's not obvious to say the problem is lack of money.
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you have no data on birthrates of enriched women and its clear that 'already rich' and 'became rich' are two distinct and different categories. also you can't look at an aggregate(data on natality here), ignore some of its premises and think the conclusion still holds; in this case - rich women, under all circumstances, will always be less likely to have children. that is bs.
Edit: Ex: http://smallbusiness.co.uk/powerful-business-women-children-2537493/ The Forbes list of The World’s 100 Most Powerful Women, analysed by TG Escapes, finds that Europe’s most powerful business women have an average of two children each– above the European average of 1.58 children per woman. ~ also: Two fifths (40 per cent) of women surveyed also feel that flexible hours are the key to allowing them to combine their career and family life, and just under a quarter state that the ability to work from home and subsidised child costs could also help them to do both jobs more successfully. goes under free time in his argument.
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Well, someone is bombing Syria:
BEIRUT (AP) — The Latest on the Syrian conflict (all times local):
5:10 a.m.
Syria's state-run news agency says the military's air defenses have confronted a missile attack on air base in central Syria and shot down eight missiles.
The report on SANA says the attack on the T4 military airbase in Homs province "is likely to be an American aggression."
However, U.S. officials tell The Associated Press that the U.S. has not launched airstrikes on Syria.
SANA says the attack resulted in a number of casualties.
The report comes after a suspected poison gas attack killed at least 40 in the eastern suburbs of Damascus, the last foothold for the Syrian opposition in the area.
President Donald Trump has promised a "big price to pay" for the suspected chemical attack.
Israel has also struck inside Syria in recent years.
Source.
My money is on Israel. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when the UN Security Council hold their emergency meeting tomorrow.
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So 4 days after Trump says he is removing US troops from Syria we hear news that Assad forces used illegal chemical weapons against 'rebels'.
Does anybody still believe the mainstream story being pushed here? It's a fantasy.A fairytale.The chemical attack was done by forces who wish to re-escalate the conflict in Syria, aka clearly not Assad who has basically won the war.
Whoever has now started bombing Syria again needs to be tried for war crimes, Israel is the likely culprit so we won't see that happen i imagine.
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On April 09 2018 18:47 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: So 4 days after Trump says he is removing US troops from Syria we hear news that Assad forces used illegal chemical weapons against 'rebels'.
Does anybody still believe the mainstream story being pushed here? It's a fantasy.A fairytale.The chemical attack was done by forces who wish to re-escalate the conflict in Syria, aka clearly not Assad who has basically won the war.
Whoever has now started bombing Syria again needs to be tried for war crimes, Israel is the likely culprit so we won't see that happen i imagine.
It's quite the farce. First Trump wants to remove troops, pentagon says needs US troops " to fight ISIS" which is nonexistent at this point, russian and other medias predict gas attack allegation incoming and here it is. I guess US, Britain, France and middle east country such as Israel and Saudi Arabia have invested a lot in this proxy war to go out defeated. US positioning it's base in the oil rich part of the country and will not let go of it... Turkey doing whatever the hell they want smuggled oil in from ISIS, attacking Kurds, but still shouting for US to bomb Assad forces even though, Erdogan is working with Putin on de-escalation...
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
It hasn't been updated in this thread, but new "upticks in fighting" in Syria are something like a monthly occurrence. The reason it doesn't really draw any more attention is because for all intents and purposes the larger battle has already been fought - this is merely political jockeying and cleanup. It's been pretty much over since Aleppo.
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