The adept is unbalanced. It really is pretty simple. The unbalance not even beeing neccessary in the stats but the overall stats, costs and availability or combination with other units.
It is a great scout with little to no risk - walling against in in the current meta makes photon overcharge rushes or stalker (wall-destroying pressure) viable which makes the adept able to enter the base again. Its combination in terms of warpprism fast-warpin (my suggestion here is make the warpprism a faster warpin than a proxy pylon, but not as fast as it is now) and pick up range it becomes insanely strong and nearly impossible to defend without dying let alone defend and get an advantage. While Protoss has nearly no commitment doing 3 gates and a few adepts they can even take a 3rd behind it and guard with 3 pylons for overcharge.
There are so many possibilities and I cannot even completely explain, but as the previous poster stated, the adept will be nerfed one way or another. I don't even think the shield-upgrade is needed in the earlier stages and midgame to make it viable and too strong, it just straight out gives an even bigger advantage.
Also as you mentioned its not the only threat - dark templars , oracles or even blink stalkers - everything is viable - even adept pressure into oracle. I dont want to say I am the most amazing terran yet I do not struggle in TvT and TvZ as much playing on high master / gm level.
As for TvP what you can try is a reactor fast expansion into factory cyclone - this is decent to defend against both oracle and warpprism - you have to be in position though to defend while adding 2 rax stim/combat and a 3rd base. You can delay the starport as you cannot pressure anyways - photon overcharge and adept warpins are simply too dangerous but stying in base you most likely can defend and at least enter midgame.
The only thing in my opinion that is stronger than it was before are mass drops. Drop a ton of bio and add a few mines - adepts are not super mobile compared to blink stalkers and that often kills protoss as even photon overcharge on multiple pylons cant deal with the damageoutput of bio.
Yeah nothing to add. The adept is straight up imbalanced, comes up far too early for its stats, will get the nerf axe at some point, presumably with some warp prism nerf. In the meantime, deal with the losses.
Well Adept is fun and good unit, I don't really want it to be like removed, but maybe if it would require more tech to unlock it, that would balance early game a bit.
I think adepts aren't that big problem in PvZ or PvP but against Terran they seem to hurt a lot
In pro games, it looks fine. In fact, most protoss get dominated by Terran in pro games (unless you are an archon of huk/MC) - I enjoy that terran finally knows how protoss felt all these years about the Marauder; a unit that decimates everything with ease for such a low cost that you can't engage or run away from.
I think adept shield upgrade wrecks HotS-style mmm bio and terrans need to do something fresh. But Blizzard is looking into exploring the adept upgrade.
On September 20 2015 20:38 mishimaBeef wrote: I think adept shield upgrade wrecks HotS-style mmm bio and terrans need to do something fresh. But Blizzard is looking into exploring the adept upgrade.
the upgrade doesn't look to be the problem as much as how early it can hit with very little commitment for the P. It pidgeonholes TvP early game too much to be a sound unit.
I can recommend: gasless 1+ 3Rax Proxy or Maka-Rax with a Wall. you can, most likely kill the expansion. While attacking build a CC and EBAY and a Turret in the min line. Attack with 14 Marines initally + 4 +4 after that relocate your rax into the main and keep making marines, get gas you spent on Factory (one Tank) starport (reactor), and after that, addons 4x Techlab to go into marauder production. Expand before making factory.
Don't walk up the ramp into the main, if there were no Low-Ground Pylon. If he had buidl 2-3 pylons (you have to kill them !) on the low ground, you can peek into the main, he might have gotten supply blocked during the attack + Pylons on the low ground = less pylons top. Don't go further into the main unless you know its a 100% kill.PylonOvercharge jungle and one Adept kills like 6 marines.
I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it.
On September 20 2015 20:32 SnowfaLL wrote: In pro games, it looks fine. In fact, most protoss get dominated by Terran in pro games (unless you are an archon of huk/MC) - I enjoy that terran finally knows how protoss felt all these years about the Marauder; a unit that decimates everything with ease for such a low cost that you can't engage or run away from.
Good Post bro. I enjoy your moral standards: Let them suffer because I suffered. Thats obviously the direction we should be heading for in sc2 instead of making it an enjoyable experience for everyone.
On September 20 2015 20:32 SnowfaLL wrote: In pro games, it looks fine. In fact, most protoss get dominated by Terran in pro games (unless you are an archon of huk/MC) - I enjoy that terran finally knows how protoss felt all these years about the Marauder; a unit that decimates everything with ease for such a low cost that you can't engage or run away from.
in pro games it looks fine unless you count the pro team that just won the only major lotv tournament that's ever happened
On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it.
Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily)
On September 20 2015 19:47 Turmantuoja wrote: Allright, I don't wanna sound mad at all. I just wanna have some tips and advices.
But how can you counter this build with Terran?
Play defensively, just like Protoss is doing in HotS. Defend all game long while scouting and building up a strong MMM+Liberator army. If the Protoss expands, you do it too. When you get like 6-8 Liberators, just go and kill the Protoss. It is that simple.
The Meta has turned by 180 degrees in LotV. It is the Protoss who is on the clock now and has to kill you before you get the ultimate army (= MMM+Lib). If he doesn't manage to do it, you will win, provided that you don't screw up the big fight. So relax, defend, don't waste units trying to harass the Protoss. Just build units, research upgrades, get to Liberators, and WIN.
On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it.
Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily)
Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want?
On September 20 2015 20:38 mishimaBeef wrote: I think adept shield upgrade wrecks HotS-style mmm bio and terrans need to do something fresh. But Blizzard is looking into exploring the adept upgrade.
the upgrade doesn't look to be the problem as much as how early it can hit with very little commitment for the P. It pidgeonholes TvP early game too much to be a sound unit.
same in pvz. it's essentially the new blink sentry, a stable mass gateway style that forces a single tech route from zerg and whoever gets the macro advantage wins the fight and the game. not a matter of balance but of diversity in styles. speedling commitments are a waste, which is a real shame because even against blink sentry speedlings were relevant, and lings are an iconic part of the fast paced swarm style of zerg.
i just don't understand why they're a tank. i'm fine with the idea of adepts being good harass tools, but when it's literally impossible to dps down an adept by the time two of them are in your mineral line (not to mention teleporting into it) it seems wrong that they get 3-5 guaranteed worker kills as long as they're targeted properly. the skill play in the ability is a joke right now because they have so much sustainability that it's cost effective even if you don't execute well
On September 20 2015 20:32 SnowfaLL wrote: In pro games, it looks fine. In fact, most protoss get dominated by Terran in pro games (unless you are an archon of huk/MC) - I enjoy that terran finally knows how protoss felt all these years about the Marauder; a unit that decimates everything with ease for such a low cost that you can't engage or run away from.
Good Post bro. I enjoy your moral standards: Let them suffer because I suffered. Thats obviously the direction we should be heading for in sc2 instead of making it an enjoyable experience for everyone.
My point being, is it is not a problem. Adepts are fine. It's terrans who are so used to being super greedy, going CC first everygame vs protoss for 2 years of HotS who have to learn how to adapt and get used to being on the back foot in the earlygame, like Zerg and Protoss has been for years. Like I said, it doesnt look like BeastyQT or any other pro is having issues in 1v1 TvP on LOTV - Least from early adept pressure. Learn how to deal with adept pressure and its not imbalanced at all.
This is why Blizzard doesn't react to people complaining about things in the first month of changes, because to everyone who follows a very set build order and can not change how they play, they all cry imbalance. But months from now (when pros/good players show how to defend it) then it is considered fine and not an issue. That is what will happen to this Adept, as it did with most new things introduced to this game.
On September 20 2015 20:38 mishimaBeef wrote: I think adept shield upgrade wrecks HotS-style mmm bio and terrans need to do something fresh. But Blizzard is looking into exploring the adept upgrade.
the upgrade doesn't look to be the problem as much as how early it can hit with very little commitment for the P. It pidgeonholes TvP early game too much to be a sound unit.
same in pvz. it's essentially the new blink sentry, a stable mass gateway style that forces a single tech route from zerg and whoever gets the macro advantage wins the fight and the game. not a matter of balance but of diversity in styles. speedling commitments are a waste, which is a real shame because even against blink sentry speedlings were relevant, and lings are an iconic part of the fast paced swarm style of zerg.
i just don't understand why they're a tank. i'm fine with the idea of adepts being good harass tools, but when it's literally impossible to dps down an adept by the time two of them are in your mineral line (not to mention teleporting into it) it seems wrong that they get 3-5 guaranteed worker kills as long as they're targeted properly. the skill play in the ability is a joke right now because they have so much sustainability that it's cost effective even if you don't execute well
And how is that different to a speedling runby? I've lost more probes than I care to count to speedling runbys, which also don't require skill on the Zerg player's part and do damage even if he doesn't micro the them at all.
On September 20 2015 22:55 KT_Elwood wrote: None of you will change the stats. Most of you are completely biased.
Yes WP got buffed hard. The PickUprange even feels stupid, its almost like blink,, the offensive WarpIn is too strong. Its a 200 Mineral DoomDrop.
It will get nerfed.
Parasite Bomb, Corruptor Ground attack and Liberator are too strong too.
Maybe it's the pickup range, which is too strong, but I'm not sure. To me the 2 sec warp in with the WP feels more broken. At the time the 16 sec WG nerf was introduced and WPs given a 2 sec warp in, many people were warning that this was not a good idea. It will probably get nerfed, because w/o the option to warp in more Adepts instantly, they don't seem strong. Especially vs Zerg.
On September 20 2015 20:38 mishimaBeef wrote: I think adept shield upgrade wrecks HotS-style mmm bio and terrans need to do something fresh. But Blizzard is looking into exploring the adept upgrade.
the upgrade doesn't look to be the problem as much as how early it can hit with very little commitment for the P. It pidgeonholes TvP early game too much to be a sound unit.
same in pvz. it's essentially the new blink sentry, a stable mass gateway style that forces a single tech route from zerg and whoever gets the macro advantage wins the fight and the game. not a matter of balance but of diversity in styles. speedling commitments are a waste, which is a real shame because even against blink sentry speedlings were relevant, and lings are an iconic part of the fast paced swarm style of zerg.
i just don't understand why they're a tank. i'm fine with the idea of adepts being good harass tools, but when it's literally impossible to dps down an adept by the time two of them are in your mineral line (not to mention teleporting into it) it seems wrong that they get 3-5 guaranteed worker kills as long as they're targeted properly. the skill play in the ability is a joke right now because they have so much sustainability that it's cost effective even if you don't execute well
And how is that different to a speedling runby? I've lost more probes than I care to count to speedling runbys, which also don't require skill on the Zerg player's part and do damage even if he doesn't micro the them at all.
speedling runbys are hard countered by walls, don't happen at the beginning of the game (unless you do zero scouting), the lings always die, simcity and warpins can mitigate the damage (counterplay), etc. etc. zerg can't wall adepts out and physically cannot dps them down that early in the game while the damage is done, the only counter is massive drone pulls and lost mining time
you don't really seem to even understand what i'm talking about
Watching TLO vs Choya's adepts, he just changes them into buildings if it is a base with low drone count. If it is high drone count, surround adept and kill it. I think he beat Choya like 3 times in a row or something a short while ago.
On September 20 2015 20:38 mishimaBeef wrote: I think adept shield upgrade wrecks HotS-style mmm bio and terrans need to do something fresh. But Blizzard is looking into exploring the adept upgrade.
the upgrade doesn't look to be the problem as much as how early it can hit with very little commitment for the P. It pidgeonholes TvP early game too much to be a sound unit.
same in pvz. it's essentially the new blink sentry, a stable mass gateway style that forces a single tech route from zerg and whoever gets the macro advantage wins the fight and the game. not a matter of balance but of diversity in styles. speedling commitments are a waste, which is a real shame because even against blink sentry speedlings were relevant, and lings are an iconic part of the fast paced swarm style of zerg.
i just don't understand why they're a tank. i'm fine with the idea of adepts being good harass tools, but when it's literally impossible to dps down an adept by the time two of them are in your mineral line (not to mention teleporting into it) it seems wrong that they get 3-5 guaranteed worker kills as long as they're targeted properly. the skill play in the ability is a joke right now because they have so much sustainability that it's cost effective even if you don't execute well
And how is that different to a speedling runby? I've lost more probes than I care to count to speedling runbys, which also don't require skill on the Zerg player's part and do damage even if he doesn't micro the them at all.
speedling runbys are hard countered by walls, don't happen at the beginning of the game (unless you do zero scouting), the lings always die, simcity and warpins can mitigate the damage (counterplay), etc. etc. zerg can't wall adepts out and physically cannot dps them down that early in the game while the damage is done, the only counter is massive drone pulls and lost mining time
you don't really seem to even understand what i'm talking about
You should watch VIBE's stream. There is also counterplay to Adept harass. 3 hatch is a bit risky now, which is good. Get gas and zergling speed earlier. That shuts down Adept harass completely, as VIBE has demonstrated numerous times on his stream.
Speaking of TLO vs Choya, for the overcharge topic (wrong thread I know) he also had a nice counter to Choya pylon overcharging his 3rd. He just counter attacked with a small force of ling roach ravager and concentrated on killing pylons at Choya's 3rd base wall. Since he had used energy and minerals attacking Zerg's 3rd, Choya's defense was poor so early in the game. It was kind of overwhelming, like I would be surprised if you can pylon overcharge a Zerg's 3rd ever after watching that.
On September 20 2015 23:09 Blacklizard wrote: Watching TLO vs Choya's adepts, he just changes them into buildings if it is a base with low drone count. If it is high drone count, surround adept and kill it. I think he beat Choya like 3 times in a row or something a short while ago.
On September 20 2015 23:09 Blacklizard wrote: Watching TLO vs Choya's adepts, he just changes them into buildings if it is a base with low drone count. If it is high drone count, surround adept and kill it. I think he beat Choya like 3 times in a row or something a short while ago.
two adepts oneshot drones...
This LotV, a new game. Don't expect the same greedy play to work every time. Adapt your strategy to the new game. I already told you what works at the top of the GM (VIBE). Get gas and speed and you will come out ahead.
On September 20 2015 23:09 Blacklizard wrote: Watching TLO vs Choya's adepts, he just changes them into buildings if it is a base with low drone count. If it is high drone count, surround adept and kill it. I think he beat Choya like 3 times in a row or something a short while ago.
two adepts oneshot drones...
This LotV, a new game. Don't expect the same greedy play to work every time. Adapt your strategy to the new game. I already told you what works at the top of the GM (VIBE). Get gas and speed and you will come out ahead.
you're literally making shit up dude, i didn't say anything about my build lol. i'm talking about fast adept harass openers, not midgame runbys. don't use strawman arguments and put words in my mouth, it makes you seem like an inattentive conversationalist
On September 20 2015 23:15 Blacklizard wrote: TLO vs adepts... he is doing it again on his stream right now. I think he lost 3 workers to 4 adepts. Not bad.
Yeah, I'm watching it right now. TLO did a Roach/Ravager counter attack and won rather easy.
Edit: TLO won yet another game. Lost maybe a handful of drones to 4 Adepts, countered with a Roach/Ravager push and did some damage. And ended the game with a follow-up pure mass roach push.
On September 20 2015 23:09 Blacklizard wrote: Watching TLO vs Choya's adepts, he just changes them into buildings if it is a base with low drone count. If it is high drone count, surround adept and kill it. I think he beat Choya like 3 times in a row or something a short while ago.
two adepts oneshot drones...
This LotV, a new game. Don't expect the same greedy play to work every time. Adapt your strategy to the new game. I already told you what works at the top of the GM (VIBE). Get gas and speed and you will come out ahead.
you're literally making shit up dude, i didn't say anything about my build lol. i'm talking about fast adept harass openers, not midgame runbys. don't use strawman arguments and put words in my mouth, it makes you seem like an inattentive conversationalist
Whatever you say, friend. This is a game with asymmetric race design. It is hard for Blizzard to give all the races the exact same tools to work with, without the races feeling the same, but with other "skins". You will just have to deal with it, that Protoss can now pressure you early. Pro Zerg players can obviously deal with it, as demonstrated by VIBE, TLO and many other players. Copy their builds and you will be fine. Or keep whining for no reason, if that makes you feel better.
On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it.
Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily)
Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want?
Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race.
On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it.
Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily)
Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want?
Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race.
Yes, but reading your posts, I get the feeling that you find everything OP in the P early game. Adepts, WPs, pylon overcharge, etc. If all of that were to be nerfed, Protoss would be utter trash.
On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it.
Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily)
Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want?
Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race.
Yes, but reading your posts, I get the feeling that you find everything OP in the P early game. Adepts, WPs, pylon overcharge, etc. If all of that were to be nerfed, Protoss would be utter trash.
P becoming the race that only get cheap wins in the early game but can't stand the test of a long game would be the worst thing ever. Ofc nerfs would have to be compensated in some ways, but all I know for sure is that the adept can't stay like this, and I said the day they introduced that long range pick-up thing that the warp prism would have to be nerfed at some point.
I'm all for P getting tools to be threatening early on, but not broken tools.
On September 20 2015 22:55 KT_Elwood wrote: None of you will change the stats. Most of you are completely biased.
Yes WP got buffed hard. The PickUprange even feels stupid, its almost like blink,, the offensive WarpIn is too strong. Its a 200 Mineral DoomDrop.
It will get nerfed.
Parasite Bomb, Corruptor Ground attack and Liberator are too strong too.
Maybe it's the pickup range, which is too strong, but I'm not sure. To me the 2 sec warp in with the WP feels more broken. At the time the 16 sec WG nerf was introduced and WPs given a 2 sec warp in, many people were warning that this was not a good idea. It will probably get nerfed, because w/o the option to warp in more Adepts instantly, they don't seem strong. Especially vs Zerg.
So that we can agree on something, yeah the 16/2 warp-ins was a bad idea. I've been advocating for a total split for ages now (pylons provide energy for buildings, warp prisms/warpgates/Nexi provide warp-in power) but there is close to zero chance they go back on that now.
I'm glad we agree at least on something. I would also prefer Adepts or warp in (WP) to be toned down in the early game in exchange for buffs to all gateway units in the mid/late game. But I don't think DK is gonna do that. Maybe it was best, after all, to make WG a Twilight Council research and buff gateway units accordingly. But DK never wanted to try that out. I feel that that would have fixed most of the issues the Protoss race has.
On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it.
Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily)
Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want?
Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race.
Yes, but reading your posts, I get the feeling that you find everything OP in the P early game. Adepts, WPs, pylon overcharge, etc. If all of that were to be nerfed, Protoss would be utter trash.
P becoming the race that only get cheap wins in the early game but can't stand the test of a long game would be the worst thing ever. Ofc nerfs would have to be compensated in some ways, but all I know for sure is that the adept can't stay like this, and I said the day they introduced that long range pick-up thing that the warp prism would have to be nerfed at some point.
I'm all for P getting tools to be threatening early on, but not broken tools.
Have we forgotten the early days of WoL where Terrans would 1/1/1 Protoss game after game after game and there was nothing Protoss could do about it until nerfs/buffs/strategy changes?
The game is still young and people are still learning how to play it. If something is clearly broken Blizzard will fix it.
I dont like that adepts are a hardcounter to certain units but have no hardcounter early. I dont think they should two-shot marines and workers and i think they are too strong vs hellions and reapers as well. And their tunneling through units is peculiar to say the least, as it takes out a major micro-component, especially against early harass. Their anti-armored however could use a buff. For a unit that can't hit air and should be a core component in the army they can feel quite helpless if you dont bring heavy antiarmor support.
On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it.
Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily)
Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want?
Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race.
Yes, but reading your posts, I get the feeling that you find everything OP in the P early game. Adepts, WPs, pylon overcharge, etc. If all of that were to be nerfed, Protoss would be utter trash.
P becoming the race that only get cheap wins in the early game but can't stand the test of a long game would be the worst thing ever. Ofc nerfs would have to be compensated in some ways, but all I know for sure is that the adept can't stay like this, and I said the day they introduced that long range pick-up thing that the warp prism would have to be nerfed at some point.
I'm all for P getting tools to be threatening early on, but not broken tools.
Have we forgotten the early days of WoL where Terrans would 1/1/1 Protoss game after game after game and there was nothing Protoss could do about it until nerfs/buffs/strategy changes?
The game is still young and people are still learning how to play it. If something is clearly broken Blizzard will fix it.
It wasn't even nerfed/buffed that much (a few small tweaks like 20% range increase on immortal, forced new meta) and that was a case of die on 1 base or die at your natural. It's not at all like adepts are killing terrans and forcing them to do only 1 specific opening to then still lose like 60% of games.
Adepts are not some super powerful all-in unit. Warp prism is broken, that's pretty obvious but adepts alone are not.
They're relatively easily defendable if you're playing defensive and aiming not to fall behind protoss much in economy (rather than expand ahead of the toss) and get worse as you get into the game, they are literally unusable against a midgame bio army (ever notice how people revert to chargelots+tech as soon as you get a few ghosts? Adept is 2/3'rds shield)
Adept is mainly strong in few numbers, they're very effective when you have 2-8 of them. They're strong defensively or offensively against low unit counts and being all aggro terran HOTS-style 3-4 minute medivac drop is not the way to play against a protoss who's playing safely any more - that only worked well when on even economy because unupgraded gateway units were bad.
On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it.
Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily)
Wire, I really don't get you man. Do you really want P's harass potential to be nerfed to the ground, so that we can play just like in HotS and WoL, meaning sitting in the base the whole game and defending or doing all-ins? Is that what you want?
Imbalanced things will get nerfed at some point, so we'd better not get used to that and be in denial that some things aren't sound with P in LotV. You even said yourself the 2 sec warp-in makes no sense. I want P to have good options at every turn, not to be the "win with adepts or die a slow death" race.
Yes, but reading your posts, I get the feeling that you find everything OP in the P early game. Adepts, WPs, pylon overcharge, etc. If all of that were to be nerfed, Protoss would be utter trash.
P becoming the race that only get cheap wins in the early game but can't stand the test of a long game would be the worst thing ever. Ofc nerfs would have to be compensated in some ways, but all I know for sure is that the adept can't stay like this, and I said the day they introduced that long range pick-up thing that the warp prism would have to be nerfed at some point.
I'm all for P getting tools to be threatening early on, but not broken tools.
Have we forgotten the early days of WoL where Terrans would 1/1/1 Protoss game after game after game and there was nothing Protoss could do about it until nerfs/buffs/strategy changes?
The game is still young and people are still learning how to play it. If something is clearly broken Blizzard will fix it.
Adepts are not some super powerful all-in unit. Warp prism is broken, that's pretty obvious but adepts alone are not.
They're relatively easily defendable if you're playing defensive and aiming not to fall behind protoss much in economy (rather than expand ahead of the toss) and get worse as you get into the game, they are literally unusable against a midgame bio army (ever notice how people revert to chargelots+tech as soon as you get a few ghosts? Adept is 2/3'rds shield)
Adept is mainly strong in few numbers, they're very effective when you have 2-8 of them. They're strong defensively or offensively against low unit counts and being all aggro terran HOTS-style 3-4 minute medivac drop is not the way to play against a protoss who's playing safely any more - that only worked well when on even economy because unupgraded gateway units were bad.
MorroW and several other players have tested it to death. The Prism/Adept attack cannot be held without rushing out a Cyclone, and even then it's dicey. The only alternative is staying on 1 base for a very long time which isn't a real alternative. I'd like to add that the attack is nearly impossible to scout and can be macro'd out of easily.
Even with a nerfed Prism, any map with a large area in the main/natural will be vulnerable to this kind of cheese. The Protoss doesn't have to kill the Terran, just target firing down some marines while shading into the mineral line will do enough damage.
A couple stalkers can be warped in if the initial attack fails to break down the Terran's wall. If Terran sends too many units, Prism dropping/warping in at the mineral line again.
The problem isn't just the Prism, the problem is that a Terran player cannot handle a few Adepts getting into his base in the early game. They are too effective against Marines and Terran's other early game options can't kill them fast enough because their HP is too high.
I think it's sad that biased players like this can't see far enough past their cheap ladder wins to realize that their own race is the one that gets hurt by this kind of stuff. I play Terran, and I've never defended window mine drops. There are few things more dissapointing than tuning into Proleague hoping for great games only to see one of your favorite players insta-win after killing 30 probes with a couple mine drops (yeah, that's really happened multiple times in Proleague: 6-8 mines, 1 bad probe pull by toss, 30 dead probes, game over).
Going back to the OP, I tend to agree with playing terran like a HOTS protoss. From a (not so good) protoss perspective I have been winning most of my PvTs at warp prism harass timings - I much more rarely win if they survive the harass decently. It's also probably worth keeping in mind that adepts unlike zealots or bio are really only powerful at your mineral lines - they take forever to snipe even add-ons, so focus your defenders near your workers and be wary of diversionary tactics that try to draw your guys away from the workers only to have a bunch of adepts psionic-transfer back instantly. And yeah, focus on getting to lategame safely. At least I really don't know how to construct an army that can fight a lategame terran army well anymore after the colo nerf, so my gameplan if it gets there still tends to be keep dropping with prisms and pray I can balance the damage I'll inevitably get from losing the main fights.
I had a memorable game where this terran was just incredibly patient with completing his ideal army (yes of MMMM+Liberator), even giving up his main and nat with all the supply depots, but once he was ready he marched and levelled my 4 bases and everything I threw against it bounced off like flies.
You forgot to mention, that MorroW tried to hold this with CC first! At least that was the case, when I watched his stream a couple of days ago. I don't know whether he tried it with a more standard build. However, he did lose every single time while going CC first, which is what I would expect, against a build like Adept/WP.
On September 20 2015 21:57 royalroadweed wrote: I think warp prism are more of a problem than the adept. The 2 second warp in is ludicrously fast. Its already faster than vikings even without the speed upgrade and coupled with the extra pickup range pretty much means you can't kill it.
Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily)
Energy based warp-ins sound really interesting to me. Something like each warp in costing 5 or 10 energy (depending how you want to balance it), and once the energy is drained, it reverts to 15 second warp ins (which I imagine will be buffed at some point to like 10 or 12 second warp ins).
Adept gonna be changed up soon I'm sure, it's not an issue vs, Zerg but it kinda sucks in PvP and of course beats up Marines pretty handily.
What my personal hope is is that they let it be available after Cybercore and give it an upgrade that gives it either a Mutalisk kinda bounce (to deal with stimmed/medivac bio) and Roach/Hydra comps and gives Gateway armies some firepower when the mid game kind of makes Gateway only comps suffer a bit.
On September 21 2015 03:35 jpg06051992 wrote: Adept gonna be changed up soon I'm sure, it's not an issue vs, Zerg but it kinda sucks in PvP and of course beats up Marines pretty handily.
What my personal hope is is that they let it be available after Cybercore and give it an upgrade that gives it either a Mutalisk kinda bounce (to deal with stimmed/medivac bio) and Roach/Hydra comps and gives Gateway armies some firepower when the mid game kind of makes Gateway only comps suffer a bit.
It should be a mid game bruiser unit for Protoss.
that was the idea at the beginning. I'd rather have it less tanky but do that bounce after kill damage again (with an upgrade), that was a pretty interesting idea.
On September 21 2015 03:35 jpg06051992 wrote: Adept gonna be changed up soon I'm sure, it's not an issue vs, Zerg but it kinda sucks in PvP and of course beats up Marines pretty handily.
What my personal hope is is that they let it be available after Cybercore and give it an upgrade that gives it either a Mutalisk kinda bounce (to deal with stimmed/medivac bio) and Roach/Hydra comps and gives Gateway armies some firepower when the mid game kind of makes Gateway only comps suffer a bit.
It should be a mid game bruiser unit for Protoss.
that was the idea at the beginning. I'd rather have it less tanky but do that bounce after kill damage again (with an upgrade), that was a pretty interesting idea.
Either that or let it scale much better with upgrades. +2/+2 could make it more viable in the late game.
On September 21 2015 03:35 jpg06051992 wrote: Adept gonna be changed up soon I'm sure, it's not an issue vs, Zerg but it kinda sucks in PvP and of course beats up Marines pretty handily.
What my personal hope is is that they let it be available after Cybercore and give it an upgrade that gives it either a Mutalisk kinda bounce (to deal with stimmed/medivac bio) and Roach/Hydra comps and gives Gateway armies some firepower when the mid game kind of makes Gateway only comps suffer a bit.
It should be a mid game bruiser unit for Protoss.
that was the idea at the beginning. I'd rather have it less tanky but do that bounce after kill damage again (with an upgrade), that was a pretty interesting idea.
Either that or let it scale much better with upgrades. +2/+2 could make it more viable in the late game.
yeah this could be good too. I agree the unit feels like a great addition to gateway armies, but it's just that tiny bit too strong early on in conjuction with the warp prism... It wouldn't need much to be really good...
On second thought I would prefer better scaling with upgrades, because the bounce shot has no counterplay, while the current shield upgrade can be mitigated by EMP. Higher shield than health value also allows for P players to retreat and start harassing again, after the shields have regenerated. Both make the unit more interesting and skill oriented.
On September 21 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote: On second thought I would prefer better scaling with upgrades, because the bounce shot has no counterplay, while the current shield upgrade can be mitigated by EMP. Higher shield than health value also allows for P players to retreat and start harassing again, after the shields have regenerated. Both make the unit more interesting and skill oriented.
as it was bounce shot only worked when the adept killed an unit, which allowed cute interactions imo.
On September 21 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote: On second thought I would prefer better scaling with upgrades, because the bounce shot has no counterplay, while the current shield upgrade can be mitigated by EMP. Higher shield than health value also allows for P players to retreat and start harassing again, after the shields have regenerated. Both make the unit more interesting and skill oriented.
as it was bounce shot only worked when the adept killed an unit, which allowed cute interactions imo.
Is there a video of that in action? I would like to see that.
On September 21 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote: On second thought I would prefer better scaling with upgrades, because the bounce shot has no counterplay, while the current shield upgrade can be mitigated by EMP. Higher shield than health value also allows for P players to retreat and start harassing again, after the shields have regenerated. Both make the unit more interesting and skill oriented.
as it was bounce shot only worked when the adept killed an unit, which allowed cute interactions imo.
Is there a video of that in action? I would like to see that.
Hmmm, that looks rather fast. When I imagine a Bio vs Adept fight I find it hard to believe that a Terrann player could micro against that. Due to low health Marines would probably just melt.
You forgot to mention, that MorroW tried to hold this with CC first! At least that was the case, when I watched his stream a couple of days ago. I don't know whether he tried it with a more standard build. However, he did lose every single time while going CC first, which is what I would expect, against a build like Adept/WP.
He spent a bunch of time trying a variety of builds. He spent several hours talking about it and playing custom games, watching replays of other players, etc... Get your head out of the sand. It is impossible to have enough units out to deal with it when it hits. The Cyclone only works since the last patch (it can kill the Prism now), before then, there were literally no builds to stop it (except staying on one base). And I'd like to point out, you can't scout effectively, so the door is opened to a whole host of other cheeses and abuses (whether they be aggressive cheeses, macro cheeses, or having the wall-in you are forced to make harassed).
That's not true and if it was, it would be a prism problem, not adept problem. Prism 6 range pickup and 2 sec warp are too powerful together.
Tell the OP what build order you know that no one else does that can effectively hold against the attack. He asked for a way to stop it, and you seem to be the only person in the world that knows how. Let us in on your secret.
If you don't listen to what top players say, don't watch streams, and don't play the beta, why are you arguing? You obviously have no idea what the current situation is.
I mostly play Terran but I've been playing Protoss recently. Here are a couple of concepts that have held true through the past 3 patches.
1.) You have to produce marauders as early as possible. Figure out when is the safest you can start producing marauders and do so.
2.) If you move out with your army and you have less than 5 barracks, you must preemptively ring your bases with turrets. This was the mistake MMA/Bomber made at red bull vs Huk/MC. It's a mistake I know that QXC/Beastyqt would not have made because I copied this concept from their games. You can't move onto the map with 3 barracks like you did in HOTS. No a single viking doesn't work. No your reinforcements won't hold off the adept/warp prism. No you can't trade you harass against theirs.
3.) Marine/marauder/liberator/mine rules all Protoss armies excluding Carriers. This is very different from HOTS. Protoss had the power in the 120-200 supply areas of the game in WOL and HOTS. Terran has that strength in LOTV. This is not necessarily true if you are top20 GM in LOTV but for everyone else, Terran rules the mid late game. This means you can play significantly more defensive in LOTV and why putting up a ring of turrets in the mid game isn't such a bad idea.
On September 21 2015 05:42 CheddarToss wrote: Hmmm, that looks rather fast. When I imagine a Bio vs Adept fight I find it hard to believe that a Terrann player could micro against that. Due to low health Marines would probably just melt.
They didn't have to.
The adepts, at that point, had so little health that standard MMM just kicked the crap out of them. The unit was squishier than marines (for cost) and had much lower damage output.
AFAIK, no one was successfully using them for anything at all and the entire beta had stopped building them altogether by the time they were changed.
I hated the "only bounce on death" thing too. It rather clearly makes the unit extremely hard to balance since it had 3 different numbers to balance ... two of which were only relevant upon last-hitting a unit ... and one of which was only relevant if there happened to be two other units in range for the ability to bounce-attack.
What a complicated mess.
As it is now, I don't really care if it's OP or not. The unit is just turning into yet another blink-all-in type of unit which, if it doesn't pay off, leads directly to a loss. If it does pay off, you win. Binary as heck. Protoss didn't need yet another binary early game tactic to depend upon to attempt to get ahead before the mid game. I wish the unit would receive a design change to make it an actual core unit that could be useful all-game-long without pidgeon-holing both sides.
On September 21 2015 05:42 CheddarToss wrote: Hmmm, that looks rather fast. When I imagine a Bio vs Adept fight I find it hard to believe that a Terrann player could micro against that. Due to low health Marines would probably just melt.
As it is now, I don't really care if it's OP or not. The unit is just turning into yet another blink-all-in type of unit which, if it doesn't pay off, leads directly to a loss. If it does pay off, you win. Binary as heck. Protoss didn't need yet another binary early game tactic to depend upon to attempt to get ahead before the mid game. I wish the unit would receive a design change to make it an actual core unit that could be useful all-game-long without pidgeon-holing both sides.
The unit is just turning into yet another blink-all-in type of unit which, if it doesn't pay off, leads directly to a loss
It's being used offensively against greedy zergs (3hatch gasless vs a 2gate before nexus opening, that's just silly) because it's good in low numbers. It's not a problem offensively against terran if you take warp prism out of the picture.
It's not that at all IMO. It's actually a very strong core unit for defense and making up a decent portion of your army (without being very weak, falling back to colossi/storm in order to do anything past the very early game). It's doesn't seem to be a problem on offense without WP.
It's not like you can blob them and fight bio even in the midgame - when medivacs, ghosts and liberators come out and/or the supply count gets bigger they become much worse.
And vs zerg? I'd never choose to enter a ground war with zerg at the moment and if i did, it probably wouldn't be adept heavy. It's simpler and safer to harass with half a dozen adepts then half a dozen phoenix's while expanding and making a carrier/VR army - lurkers and probably ravagers on the ground (as well as the threat of mutalisk) make adepts pretty terrible in the midgame without heavy support.
The unit is just turning into yet another blink-all-in type of unit which, if it doesn't pay off, leads directly to a loss
It's being used offensively against greedy zergs (3hatch gasless vs a 2gate before nexus opening, that's just silly) because it's good in low numbers. It's not a problem offensively against terran if you take warp prism out of the picture.
It's not that at all IMO. It's actually a very strong core unit for defense and making up a decent portion of your army (without being very weak, falling back to colossi/storm in order to do anything past the very early game). It's doesn't seem to be a problem on offense without WP.
the adept problem is definitely firstly an adept+WP problem so far, not so much of an adept problem it itself.
1.) You have to produce marauders as early as possible. Figure out when is the safest you can start producing marauders and do so.
This does not work (maybe in silver league?). The Protoss player need only target fire Marines and SCVs while ignoring the Marauders and using Shade to outmaneuver the Terran army. Marauders lack the DPS needed to defend effectively and, once all the Marines are dead, there is nothing to kill the Prism.
This thread is full of people suggesting vague stuff that is known to not work and saying Adept+Prism can be held effectively without suggesting a single build order.
As for all the people suggesting that the Prism is the only problem. Imagine the Prism is nerfed and has a longer warp-in time with maybe 2-3 range on pickup. Now imagine a map with a large main/natural, 8 Shades slide into your mineral line at 4:25 and start going to town on your SCVs. Oh shit, GG. Sounds like good gameplay to me. Mapmakers need even more limitations than they have already...
Plus, there are other consequences and concerns other than the Prism. Terran has to wall off or lose now, leaving Terran vulnerable to Stalkers picking away at the wall early game. Having to prep blindly for early Adept builds also will likely leave Terran open to other all ins. Even if Blizzard does something to 'balance' this stuff, it will still be miserable to play against. Just like early Oracles and window mine drops in HotS TvP. Both are 'balanced' and you know what? I don't care, they suck to play against and they suck to watch.
The Adept is far too strong early game and falls off lategame, it overlaps with the Zealot and lacks micro potential other than BS with Shade. The unit is in a horrible place.
4:25 is super late for LOTV. If you're walled then you should just treat it like a hellion/mine drop (where he's either elevatoring or using multiple dropships)
Both are 'balanced' and you know what? I don't care, they suck to play against and they suck to watch.
I agree
The Adept is far too strong early game and falls off lategame, it overlaps with the Zealot and lacks micro potential other than BS with Shade. The unit is in a horrible place.
Well it's probably too late at this point to make it zealot/dragoon
4:25 is super late for LOTV. If you're walled then you should just treat it like a hellion/mine drop (where he's either elevatoring or using multiple dropships)
There are a variety of flavors. With a proxy'd robo it can hit at around 4, but that's pretty all-in. Less all-in versions hit anywhere from 4:20-5:00. And, no you don't treat it like a hellion/mine drop, whatever that means. You either have your Cyclone kill the prism (that you hopefully scouted soon enough) and take a bunch of damage, or you went for the marauder build and after your marines are focused down and Adepts run amuck through your base denying mining and killing SCVs you lose.
If the Protoss has poor unit control/messes up or the Terran does something miraculous, sure it can be held. If the Protoss doesn't ignore the Marauders, sure it can be held. But that's all beside the point...
If you're walled in and he made a bunch of units and a dropship at home it doesn't really matter if he's terran or protoss, you treat it very similarly. I have a ton of experience playing terrans w/ 2 gates and a robo (i don't do 1 base adept-WP all ins) and if the prism didn't have 6 range and 2 second warp the adepts themselves wouldn't be considered anywhere near as powerful
On September 21 2015 08:46 Cyro wrote: If you're walled in and he made a bunch of units and a dropship at home it doesn't really matter if he's terran or protoss, you treat it very similarly. I have a ton of experience playing terrans w/ 2 gates and a robo (i don't do 1 base adept-WP all ins) and if the prism didn't have 6 range and 2 second warp the adepts themselves wouldn't be considered anywhere near as powerful
What dropship? There is literally no way to build a dropship in time. What the heck are you talking about? Unless your talking about the Terran player staying on 1 base, not scouting, and preping for a Protoss all-in that may or may not come. Which is not reasonable. You're saying that if the Terran player does something impossible, he can hold.
Also, why do you only have 2gates? You can have 4gates, still expand, and hit around the 4:25 mark if you proxy the robo. If you don't proxy the robo, it'll hit later of course. Though depending on the map, not that much later.
What do you mean make a bunch of units? The most the Terran player can have (unless on 1base, which clearly isn't viable to do every single game) is 10-14 marines and 3-4 marauders, assuming the Protoss hits in between the 4:00:4:30 mark. Or 14ish marines and 1 cyclone, which can hold the attack... sometimes... with good fortune.
You can go either 1rax expo, into 3rax with constant Marine/Marauder producting, get the said 10-14 marines and 3-4 marauders, and lose. Or you can go for 1rax expo, with 1 more rax and a factory for a cyclone that pops out at a little after the 4:00 mark, have 14ish marines and 1 cyclone and hold, if you're lucky.
What dropship? There is literally no way to build a dropship in time. What the heck are you talking about?
You're walled in and your terran/protoss opponent is building units and a dropship at home and then bringing them over to your base to bypass your wall.
Also, why do you only have 2gates? You can have 4gates, still expand
2gate-nex-robo or 2gate-robo-nex takes an economic disadvantage to an expanding terran. Four is rather all-in by comparison. Four gates and proxying the robo is approaching maximusblack levels of play
It sounds like you're actually worried about something that's pretty all-in-ish. Do you have any replay in particular for it? That's not standard adept harass nor something i personally have a lot of experience with. At the very least you can scout delayed expansion because the protoss, even with a 2gate expand (which falls behind eco terran) will want to drop nexus like 20 seconds before he has any unit to deny a worker scout (and he can't deny a scan)
What level are you talking about Bohemond? I'm asking, because I don't see what you are describing when watching MC's stream. And MC is at the top of the GM ladder in LotV. His terran opponents hold the Adept/WP aggression more often than not. So really, you must be talking about some other push, which MC doesn't know about.
On September 21 2015 09:06 CheddarToss wrote: What level are you talking about Bohemond? I'm asking, because I don't see what you are describing when watching MC's stream. And MC is at the top of the GM ladder in LotV. His terran opponents hold the Adept/WP aggression more often than not. So really, you must be talking about some other push, which MC doesn't know about.
What are the Terran players doing? What time is MC hitting with his attack? What's he building? I don't tune into MCs stream. I explained the Terran builds I'm aware of in my last posts, as well as the unit counts they have around 4:00-4:30ish.
Like I said earlier, the OP asks for builds/advice on how to stop Adept/Prism, and a bunch of people chime in saying it can be held suggesting builds that don't work or are impossible (like Cryo) and never give any specifics.
There are, in this case many roads leading to Rome, but the general idea is, 1gate, cybercore, expo, build 1-2 adepts pre warpgate finishing, robo (either proxy or not), drop extra gates, 3-5 more depending, attack.
From the TvPs I've watched, it doesn't seem that most pro Protoss players are doing the type of all-in I'm talking about since it's a free win and they know it'll get patched out of the game.
For example, I've yet to see HuK do it. But, of course, I don't spend 25 hours a day watching LotV steams, so maybe he does it only when he knows I'm not watching. As for level, LotV GM of course...
I haven't seen MC proxy a robo yet. Maybe that's the key part, I don't know. I saw Huk do some very cheesy builds (even a one base all-in) against Morrow couple of games in a row, but Morrow was stubbornly doing a CC first in all those games. I watched both streams in parallel and people in Morrow's chat were raging like mad, while it was obvious, that such aggression can not be held with a greedy build like that.
Terran players are mostly doing 1rax expo, into 3rax, however the Protoss play you are describing doesn't seem to add up. How can a P player have a robo, a WP and up to 6 gates by the time the Terran player only has 3 rax? That doesn't seem possible.
On September 21 2015 09:35 CheddarToss wrote: I haven't seen MC proxy a robo yet. Maybe that's the key part, I don't know. I saw Huk do some very cheesy builds (even a one base all-in) against Morrow couple of games in a row, but Morrow was stubbornly doing a CC first in all those games. I watched both streams in parallel and people in Morrow's chat were raging like mad, while it was obvious, that such aggression can not be held with a greedy build like that.
Terran players are mostly doing 1rax expo, into 3rax, however the Protoss play you are describing doesn't seem to add up. How can a P player have a robo, a WP and up to 6 gates by the time the Terran player only has 3 rax? That doesn't seem possible.
I said, there are a variety of things I've seen. The 4gate version hits at 4:25ish when done crisply. The 6gate version hits later, obviously. It's a delayed cheese, which as I'm sure we both know, can be even more effective at times.
On smaller maps, or with close air space, the Prism can still get to the Terran base at the 4:30 mark with the 4gate version and no proxy.
I've said before, MorroW has tried a huge number of builds. Come on, man... The things I said only don't add up if you only read want to want to read rather than what's there. I don't get how '3-5 extra' gates becomes me saying 5 extra in your mind.
Bunkers behind or near the mineral lines seem to help.
You can't blindly start building bunkers all throughout your base...
EDIT: I don't want to be rude, but I'm kinda over this. It's clear that Cryo is either a troll or doesn't speak english and Cheddar, you just don't seem to be aware of the relevant builds. You've been exceedingly civil, and I thank you for that.
I've seen the 4g version and the Terran has the unit count you've described. With the higher number of gates the push hits later and the Terran has more units. In either case up to this point I haven't observed that it is a free or auto win. Maybe it is, but it didn't look like one to me in any of the games I've seen so far.
Edit: That all being said, I'm not a "Zealot" and I'm ready to believe that the Adept is too powerful in the early game in PvT. I've already said in this and the other thread that I'm completely fine with the Adept getting nerfed, as long as it doesn't get nerfed to the ground, if it gets a buff in the late game.
Haha, it's not 'blindly'. And it's not 'throughout' your base. Plus bunkers are like 100minerals, which are salvageable.
In a game with competent players, an investment of 200 minerals + mining time on 2 SCVs for two bunkers near your mineral lines puts you very far behind. And it is blindly, since there is no way to scout the Protoss after the Adept comes out.
I've seen the 4g version and the Terran has the unit count you've described. With the higher number of gates the push hits later and the Terran has more units. In either case up to this point I haven't observed that it is a free or auto win. Maybe it is, but it didn't look like one to me in any of the games I've seen so far.
12 Marines and 3 Marauders can't beat 8 Adepts assuming any kind of decent micro. The Protoss player casts Shade, directs them to a mineral line, and while waiting for the teleport, target fires the marines. Prism pickup micro isn't even needed.
If the Terran pulls SCVs, well, we know how that'll go.
On September 21 2015 10:03 CheddarToss wrote: Bohemond I've edited my previous post.
I think this whole misunderstanding comes from Protoss players watching Protoss streams. Good Protoss players like MC and HuK aren't going to bother doing a free win, cheese build like the one in question every single game. So, if you watch a Protoss stream you see a variety of builds, maybe with this one mixed in occasionally, maybe not.
If you watch a Terran stream, you'll see this type of junk going on constantly, and the Terran will explain what's going on in a lot of detail.
It didn't occur to me that this might be the cause of the issue until your comment about watching MC.
EDIT: I don't think the Adept should get 'nerfed' either. I think it should be removed and replaced with a Zealot buff, maybe a Stalker buff as well, though that'll be hard to balance. There just isn't a reason for the thing to exist. But, if it's going to be shoved down everyone's throats like Blizzard is probably going to do, it should be a unit that can scale into the mid/late game. There are tons of great suggestions on how to do this, so I'm betting we won't see any of them.
Haha, it's not 'blindly'. And it's not 'throughout' your base. Plus bunkers are like 100minerals, which are salvageable.
In a game with competent players, an investment of 200 minerals + mining time on 2 SCVs for two bunkers near your mineral lines puts you very far behind. And it is blindly, since there is no way to scout the Protoss after the Adept comes out.
Honestly, that math doesn't really add up. The only thing that adepts can kill is SCV's or marines. If you protect your mineral lines and your marines with bunkers. If you play patiently, pull scv's away from adepts. 2 bunkers that can be salvaged will bring you out ahead. Adepts aren't free. If you're trying to tech while holding this it's probably not going to work out.
Haha, it's not 'blindly'. And it's not 'throughout' your base. Plus bunkers are like 100minerals, which are salvageable.
In a game with competent players, an investment of 200 minerals + mining time on 2 SCVs for two bunkers near your mineral lines puts you very far behind. And it is blindly, since there is no way to scout the Protoss after the Adept comes out.
Honestly, that math doesn't really add up. The only thing that adepts can kill is SCV's or marines. If you protect your mineral lines and your marines with bunkers. If you play patiently, pull scv's away from adepts. 2 bunkers that can be salvaged will bring you out ahead. Adepts aren't free. If you're trying to tech while holding this it's probably not going to work out.
Watch a replay or a stream, play a game yourself. You clearly have no idea what the issues are. The number of things I can think of that the Protoss can abuse here just off the top of my head is huge, and I'm not even a good player. Remember, the Protoss doesn't have to warp in Adepts, and the 4gate build isn't all-in, and the Terran player cannot scout effectively, so for all he knows the Protoss is teching up on 2 base, getting ready for a nice macro game, and never had any intention of cheesing.
Just think, you make a wall-in at your main ramp, a wall-in at the natural with a bunker, 2 more bunkers in your mineral line, and then a few stalkers start picking away at your depot walls. You pull your marauders and a few marines to the front to stop it, and boom Prism warping in at the mineral line.
Also, what about the math doesn't add up? The bunkers cost 100 each, just because they can be salvaged later doesn't mean you weren't put 200 minerals behind when you build them...
On September 21 2015 10:03 CheddarToss wrote: Bohemond I've edited my previous post.
I think this whole misunderstanding comes from Protoss players watching Protoss streams. Good Protoss players like MC and HuK aren't going to bother doing a free win, cheese build like the one in question every single game. So, if you watch a Protoss stream you see a variety of builds, maybe with this one mixed in occasionally, maybe not.
If you watch a Terran stream, you'll see this type of junk going on constantly, and the Terran will explain what's going on in a lot of detail.
It didn't occur to me that this might be the cause of the issue until your comment about watching MC.
EDIT: I don't think the Adept should get 'nerfed' either. I think it should be removed and replaced with a Zealot buff, maybe a Stalker buff as well, though that'll be hard to balance. There just isn't a reason for the thing to exist. But, if it's going to be shoved down everyone's throats like Blizzard is probably going to do, it should be a unit that can scale into the mid/late game. There are tons of great suggestions on how to do this, so I'm betting we won't see any of them.
Well DK never mentioned the Adept as one of the problematic units. And given how prideful the design and balancing team has been all these years, I think it is safe to assume that the Adept is here to stay. Therefore the best we can hope for is an early game nerf to the Adept and appropriate buffs to gateway units in the mid/late game. Like you, I didn't like the Adept at first. But it has started to grow on me. It truly is a unit with a very high skill ceiling and the addition to the gateway force, which Protoss have needed all this time. Remember, without the Adept, it is not possible to cure the Protoss deathball syndrome.
I think what they need to do is nerf the 2 second warpin on the warp prism back to like 4 seconds or so and buff the regular warpin from a pylon up a bit. Maybe like 10 seconds?
The pickup range + almost instant warpins on the Warp Prism make that adept play really strong early vs Terran. But I think the adept itself is not a god mode unit like some people in this thread are saying.
EDIT- maybe the pickup range can be a very short upgrade at the facility or something.
Early game it's definitely a bit strong... Mass Stalker/Adept and just Blink into their base then use the warp prism to "blink" back the hurt units.
Worth noting in all this balance discussion: DK has repeatedly said that they are thinking of moving Adepts to armored. Everyone saying there is no balance problem with adepts is ignoring DK's own acknowledgment that the Blizz team is working on rebalancing them. Armored adepts will be a fairly huge nerf for TvP (marauders) and will make PvP more than just adept spam (only counter to adepts was more adepts).
TLDR: you can't say that adepts are balanced when DK and blizz have acknowledged balance issues and are working on fixes for them (armored).
On September 22 2015 03:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Worth noting in all this balance discussion: DK has repeatedly said that they are thinking of moving Adepts to armored. Everyone saying there is no balance problem with adepts is ignoring DK's own acknowledgment that the Blizz team is working on rebalancing them. Armored adepts will be a fairly huge nerf for TvP (marauders) and will make PvP more than just adept spam (only counter to adepts was more adepts).
TLDR: you can't say that adepts are balanced when DK and blizz have acknowledged balance issues and are working on fixes for them (armored).
Yes you can. The Warp Prism greatly enhances the Adept. Adepts alone are not a problem.. it's adepts + warp prism that is the issue for Terran. The Warp Prism basically ensures that they WILL get into your base, which makes walling etc. useless againt them. So they're basically guaranteed to do economic damage unless the Terran rushes out a viking or two.
The Huk/MC vs MMA/Bomber game on Terraform from the finals showed what a perfect defense looks like.
The Warp Prism greatly enhances the Adept. Adepts alone are not a problem.. it's adepts + warp prism that is the issue for Terran.
The pickup range + almost instant warpins on the Warp Prism make that adept play really strong early vs Terran. But I think the adept itself is not a god mode unit like some people in this thread are saying.
The only kind of Warp Prism nerf that could solve the problem is a large build time increase or moving it up the tech tree.
As I, and others both here and elsewhere, have pointed out numerous times, there is no way (apart from a Cyclone rush after the recent patch) to have enough units to defend 8 Adepts without taking critical damage. 3 Marauders and 12 Marines don't do it. The cyclone only works if you scout the Prism right away and kill it quickly with lock-on + marine fire.
It's not that the Adept is some 'god mode unit' (straw man much?), it's that due to its effectiveness vs. marines and its high hp combined with how many (8) can be in your base at the 4 minute mark, the Terran player does not have enough units to defend except with one build that doesn't always work. No amount of feelings, opinions, or personal thoughts on the issue are going to change that
Adding to the problem is the fact that the Terran player cannot scout effectively and must prepare for the attack whether or not it's coming.
On September 22 2015 03:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Worth noting in all this balance discussion: DK has repeatedly said that they are thinking of moving Adepts to armored. Everyone saying there is no balance problem with adepts is ignoring DK's own acknowledgment that the Blizz team is working on rebalancing them. Armored adepts will be a fairly huge nerf for TvP (marauders) and will make PvP more than just adept spam (only counter to adepts was more adepts).
TLDR: you can't say that adepts are balanced when DK and blizz have acknowledged balance issues and are working on fixes for them (armored).
Yes you can. The Warp Prism greatly enhances the Adept. Adepts alone are not a problem.. it's adepts + warp prism that is the issue for Terran. The Warp Prism basically ensures that they WILL get into your base, which makes walling etc. useless againt them. So they're basically guaranteed to do economic damage unless the Terran rushes out a viking or two.
The Huk/MC vs MMA/Bomber game on Terraform from the finals showed what a perfect defense looks like.
No, it's not just the warp prism. With the cancelable teleport you get constant free scouts and threats the terran has to react to. And they're just super effective against bio. You see adept teleports being used to teleport right on top of a larger army supply, stimmed, medivac supported terran bioball. That's a big red flag that the stats are out of whack.
to hold with fast expands, you still need to wall off the main and add a bunker at your natural. Adding multiple barracks before higher tech is great, you can also add widowmines. This should let you hold of the initial harrass pretty well.
Arent adepts armored now? Marauders should be good?
The pickup range + almost instant warpins on the Warp Prism make that adept play really strong early vs Terran. But I think the adept itself is not a god mode unit like some people in this thread are saying.
The only kind of Warp Prism nerf that could solve the problem is a large build time increase or moving it up the tech tree.
As I, and others both here and elsewhere, have pointed out numerous times, there is no way (apart from a Cyclone rush after the recent patch) to have enough units to defend 8 Adepts without taking critical damage. 3 Marauders and 12 Marines don't do it. The cyclone only works if you scout the Prism right away and kill it quickly with lock-on + marine fire.
It's not that the Adept is some 'god mode unit' (straw man much?), it's that due to its effectiveness vs. marines and its high hp combined with how many (8) can be in your base at the 4 minute mark, the Terran player does not have enough units to defend except with one build that doesn't always work. No amount of feelings, opinions, or personal thoughts on the issue are going to change that
Adding to the problem is the fact that the Terran player cannot scout effectively and must prepare for the attack whether or not it's coming.
This is all great except for where I refer you to a game in which the Terran defended it perfectly and won very convincingly.
Vikings may be necessary early to fend off the Warp Prism. If you wall off at your main ramp they can't get into your base any other way. And since they don't shoot up your Vikings are safe to kill the WP.
I suggested a small nerf to Warp Prism warpins because it gives T a chance to take out the WP before more adepts are warped in. But I think the problem is Terrans are trying to play to similarly to HotS. They're used to being the aggressor early vs P.
Maybe in the LotV meta, Terran has to turtle the way Protoss did vs T in WoL/HotS.
The Warp Prism greatly enhances the Adept. Adepts alone are not a problem.. it's adepts + warp prism that is the issue for Terran.
The pickup range + almost instant warpins on the Warp Prism make that adept play really strong early vs Terran. But I think the adept itself is not a god mode unit like some people in this thread are saying.
The only kind of Warp Prism nerf that could solve the problem is a large build time increase or moving it up the tech tree.
As I, and others both here and elsewhere, have pointed out numerous times, there is no way (apart from a Cyclone rush after the recent patch) to have enough units to defend 8 Adepts without taking critical damage. 3 Marauders and 12 Marines don't do it. The cyclone only works if you scout the Prism right away and kill it quickly with lock-on + marine fire.
It's not that the Adept is some 'god mode unit' (straw man much?), it's that due to its effectiveness vs. marines and its high hp combined with how many (8) can be in your base at the 4 minute mark, the Terran player does not have enough units to defend except with one build that doesn't always work. No amount of feelings, opinions, or personal thoughts on the issue are going to change that
Adding to the problem is the fact that the Terran player cannot scout effectively and must prepare for the attack whether or not it's coming.
This is all great except for where I refer you to a game in which the Terran defended it perfectly and won very convincingly.
Vikings may be necessary early to fend off the Warp Prism. If you wall off at your main ramp they can't get into your base any other way. And since they don't shoot up your Vikings are safe to kill the WP.
I suggested a small nerf to Warp Prism warpins because it gives T a chance to take out the WP before more adepts are warped in. But I think the problem is Terrans are trying to play to similarly to HotS. They're used to being the aggressor early vs P.
Maybe in the LotV meta, Terran has to turtle the way Protoss did vs T in WoL/HotS.
If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that going for early vikings is one of the worst replies available. You can't afford to invest that much in tech. Unless you suggesting staying on 1 base for a long time, not scouting, and hoping the Protoss player doesn't macro?
I really don't understand what kind of Protoss players they have in their testing teams. They craft tools that clearly will make offensive strats broken and then say "hey, huge boost to the defensive case !" (talking about the 2 sec "defensive" warp time, forgetting ofc to mention it affects prisms too). The warp-in "nerf" was such an absurd boost to warp prism play... Once again, splitting energy and warp-in power would have solved the same issues without giving birth to the problems we're facing right now, but at that point they seem to love their wanky solution too much. Same with pylon overcharge btw, who thought it wouldn't be used on proxy pylons ? We should really get Has as a beta tester so that they at least try to design Protoss as a race that doesn't just rely on early game deception and shenanigans.
The Adept is here to stay, and I like that, and am interested to see what kind of changes they settle on. It is clearly too strong a unit for when it shows up in the game. And since the thread is "Adept Play" I think it's fair to include the Warp Prism (WP) in this conversation.
TvP, Early Game - They should consider changing the bonus damage to light. 3-4 shots to kill an SCV or Marine is probably where it needs be. Especially if it is going to stay at the incredibly tanky 90 health 90 shields. Right now it takes 3 marines ten volleys of focus fire to kill one Adept. With basic Adept micro, it is basically impossible for un-stimmed marined to kill Adepts. - Marauders are currently ineffective as well, even with concussive shells. And I normally don't like doing this, but if you build marauders and an oracle flies into your base it's just game over. - Helions are ineffective because the Adept can just fight it and win. - Rushing to cyclone is bad. - Starport fairs no better versus Adepts. What, Banshees? Lulz.
The Shade Shade canceling should probably be looked at as well. Not sure what the mechanism should be here, without it getting too complicated, but maybe a threshold at the very end, where you can't cancel in the last 1 second, or whatever, and a slight delay on the cancel, so if you do initiate a cancel, a noticeable tell animates the shade. This would help prevent some of the coin-flip nonsense in Adept vs. Adept battles.
The Warp Prism I've seen a lot of people discussing this, and so far, I really like the idea of energy-based warp-ins. For one drop ship to--essentially--scale infinitely in capacity is a little much, even for Protoss.
The warp-in is too fast. Don't know what the right speed is. But it's not what it is now, lol.
The pick-range ... dear god. This is basically Blink. So now, you're in my base, with a super-fast offensive pylon, and now every unit near the WP has Blink? It's just extremely difficult to defend.
On September 22 2015 04:25 TimeSpiral wrote: The Warp Prism I've seen a lot of people discussing this, and so far, I really like the idea of energy-based warp-ins. For one drop ship to--essentially--scale infinitely in capacity is a little much, even for Protoss.
The warp-in is too fast. Don't know what the right speed is. But it's not what it is now, lol.
The pick-range ... dear god. This is basically Blink. So now, you're in my base, with a super-fast offensive pylon, and now every unit near the WP has Blink? It's just extremely difficult to defend.
Agree with everything. Energy based warp-ins would solve so much, I've been advocating for that for ages.
I'll tell you what the right speed is, it's 5 sec with energy and warp-in power split.
I won't even talk about the pick-up range, I could get rude.
I'm strongly against nerfing pick up range and shade too much, for the simple reason that these things provide these units with a very good skill separation. A bad player can not profit from either of these, a good player will utilize them to great effect. This in my opinion is exactly what Protoss needs, more micro skill and less a-move. Nerfs should hit the a-move case, meaning that they should reduce dmg, range or the warp in time. The shade canceling with delay and animation could be good, but I can't tell w/o play testing it first. In LotV there are now many convoluted mechanics for Protoss, like the new chrono, the new warp in with separate rules, and I really don't like that. I prefer elegant solutions. Therefore I'm leaning towards straight nerfs to stats.
On September 22 2015 04:41 CheddarToss wrote: In LotV there are now many convoluted mechanics for Protoss, like the new chrono, the new warp in with separate rules, and I really don't like that. I prefer elegant solutions.
WP play with adepts is pretty dumb, they have so much HP, they are easy to drop micro, and will usually do great economic damage going for SCVS (PvT) with minimal losses due to the aforementioned points.
If Terran drop early Protoss have Pylon Overcharge, tanky units, FFs, defensive warp ins, and observers to scout incoming drops, everything is reactive and good reaction will allow the Protoss player to come out on top defending drops. If a Protoss uses a WP to drop adepts and reinforce the Terran player is forced to keep the army back in base, build bunkers for drop defense, build vikings to deal with the WP etc.
Drop harassment should be just that, harassment. It shouldn't be a game winning strategy always used just to punish the many, many mistakes a Terran player can make dealing with them. I hope this is fine tuned soon because it feels very much like Hellbat drops when they dominated every match up just because they were the most cost efficient way to win games.
The cost for P vs T in each situation allows Protoss way too much time and power in the match up. With almost guaranteed economic damage when executed correctly, there is no way for Terran to come out on top in anything beyond mid game battles after taking an econ hit. A good sized army of zealots and adepts just takes far too long to kill, regardless of what is doing damage alongside it.
It is a massive shame that there is little time left, as I really think ghost could be worked on here. Give them an ability to slow down/freeze (just some kind of CC with limited radius) and make them a decent defensive unit that isn't so awkward to get (they have no real power or purpose unless supplementing a big bio army or massed late game). I don't know though, the current TvP I have been having have been terribly boring because everyone just throws adepts at mineral lines and it is dull.
On September 22 2015 06:06 DinoMight wrote: If they reduce the damage by 1 from 23 to 22 the adept goes from 2-shotting marines and scvs to 3-shotting them.
Later in the game when marines have combat shields it's still 3 shots anyway.
Doesn't affect anything else.
Just saying.. easiest fix ever if it's really that broken.
Add to that +2/+2 upgrade scaling and they retain usefulness throughout the game and stop sucking in the late game.
On September 22 2015 06:06 DinoMight wrote: If they reduce the damage by 1 from 23 to 22 the adept goes from 2-shotting marines and scvs to 3-shotting them.
Later in the game when marines have combat shields it's still 3 shots anyway.
Doesn't affect anything else.
Just saying.. easiest fix ever if it's really that broken.
'If it's really that broken?'
I thought it wasn't broken and you had proof in the form of a VOD? I thought you knew of a pro game where it was perfectly defended. I thought rushing out a Viking that can't kill a Warp Prism before it unloads and warps in units was the solution!
What changed man? Don't wuss out on me now! Stand up for what you know is true! (Or suggest a solution that everyone knows isn't viable, then claim the attack was defended in a game where the attack never occurred, and then ignore the person who pointed it out.)
This is all great except for where I refer you to a game in which the Terran defended it perfectly and won very convincingly.
You even called me out for ignoring your point, man, don't ignore my reply to that! Where is your honor?!?!?!?! Did you reference the wrong game by mistake? Did you lie on purpose hoping no one would check? Did you mistake Protoss macro play for an Adept all-in? Did you mistake the Terran widow mine drop for an Adept drop? I'm living in suspense here! I can't take it!
On September 22 2015 06:06 DinoMight wrote: If they reduce the damage by 1 from 23 to 22 the adept goes from 2-shotting marines and scvs to 3-shotting them.
Later in the game when marines have combat shields it's still 3 shots anyway.
Doesn't affect anything else.
Just saying.. easiest fix ever if it's really that broken.
It's not though, if anything the WP pickup range is
On September 22 2015 06:06 DinoMight wrote: If they reduce the damage by 1 from 23 to 22 the adept goes from 2-shotting marines and scvs to 3-shotting them.
Later in the game when marines have combat shields it's still 3 shots anyway.
Doesn't affect anything else.
Just saying.. easiest fix ever if it's really that broken.
It's not though, if anything the WP pickup range is
You don't even know the builds. You talk nonsense about 2gate robo and 1 base all-ins, which have nothing to do with the build that's a problem for Terran players. You claimed the Terran player could have a medivac out and a bunch of other ignorant junk.
The Protoss build in question has been stated several times in this thread. What do you suggest the Terran player to do counter it? You have yet to suggest any type of useful anything. You merely repeat over and over that the Terran player can hold. The closest you came to a suggested build is when you said something out the Terran player getting a 'dropship,' which can't be done in time unless you skip out on marine/marauder production which, obviously, isn't the answer.
Either suggest an actual build + composition for the Terran player or admit your ignorance. The most stuff the Terran can have is either
1) 12ish Marines, 3-4 Marauders - Not enough stuff, Protoss target fires the marines and SCVs while ignoring the Marauders since they don't do enough damage, and either cripples the Terran econ or outright wins.
2) 14ish Marines, 1 Cyclone - If scouted early enough the Cyclone can kill the Prism after the recent patch. But it's very dicey since you have to react instantly and have the Cyclone in position. Obviously, this just isn't possible on a large number of maps.
And no one in this thread claiming this attack can be held has even bothered to try and address the fact that the Terran player can't know if the attack is coming because the Terran play cannot scout effectively. Forcing the Terran into at best one or two builds every single game, assuming the attack could even be held, which it can't.
On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it.
When I realise there is probably just a bit more than one month of beta left... Is it conceivable to have two patches a week until beta goes down to prepare release ?
You don't even know the builds. You talk nonsense about 2gate robo and 1 base all-ins, which have nothing to do with the build that's a problem for Terran players. You claimed the Terran player could have a medivac out and a bunch of other ignorant junk.
Man go back and read the posts. I was talking about adept harass (with wp) and how protoss would typically do it from 2 gates. I said "dropship", not medivac, referencing the warp prism. You're confusing so much stuff up and getting mad over nothing.
If you want to discuss a specific all in involving an adept and prism you can, just don't mix it up with the standard adept harass openings or discussion from other people relating to that. We were not talking about proxying a robo and building 4-5 gates on a 20 probe economy.
address the fact that the Terran player can't know if the attack is coming because the Terran play cannot scout effectively
I've never seen the all in before (need to watch the rep you posted) so i can't comment yet other than terran can easily scout standard adept harass openings. Crazy all-ins are another matter but you have free reign in his base until 40 seconds after the timing for a 2gate opening so you can rule that out for sure and you have scans if he's really going that hard (proxy robo, 4-5 gates, few probes). You have to understand that terran has the best early game scouting of any race in the game so that's not likely to be a big problem unless the all-in is ridiculously powerful and not even semi-reasonably stoppable
If that was the case i do wonder why i have not seen it in the last 20 pvt tournament games as money is on the line and it would have been a free win.
On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it.
I disagree, PvP doesn't need it at all
Care to elaborate? From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself. This is aggravated by the fact that the shadow is able to pass through forcefields. That said, the new photon overcharge is making things much better in PvP early game.
From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself.
Just open 2gate before cyber (gateway build time is longer than cyber core) and grab a mothership core after 2 or 4 adepts if it's an issue for you. Watch his gate counts and chrono usages until 5-15 seconds after the cyber finishes
losing to a lot of stuff myself, adepts before warpgate timing is not one of them
You don't even know the builds. You talk nonsense about 2gate robo and 1 base all-ins, which have nothing to do with the build that's a problem for Terran players. You claimed the Terran player could have a medivac out and a bunch of other ignorant junk.
Man go back and read the posts. I was talking about adept harass (with wp) and how protoss would typically do it from 2 gates. I said "dropship", not medivac, referencing the warp prism. You're confusing so much stuff up and getting mad over nothing.
If you want to discuss a specific all in involving an adept and prism you can, just don't mix it up with the standard adept harass openings or discussion from other people relating to that. We were not talking about proxying a robo and building 4-5 gates on a 20 probe economy.
address the fact that the Terran player can't know if the attack is coming because the Terran play cannot scout effectively
I've never seen the all in before (need to watch the rep you posted) so i can't comment yet other than terran can easily scout standard adept harass openings. Crazy all-ins are another matter but you have free reign in his base until 40 seconds after the timing for a 2gate opening so you can rule that out for sure and you have scans if he's really going that hard (proxy robo, 4-5 gates, few probes)
Read the original post of this thread
No one except you has ever talked about 2gate builds in this thread. No one has brought up 'adept harass' except you. No one cares about 2gate builds. They are not the problem. Why are you bringing up 2gate builds?
If you want to discuss a specific all in involving an adept and prism you can, just don't mix it up with the standard adept harass openings or discussion from other people relating to that. We were not talking about proxying a robo and building 4-5 gates on a 20 probe economy.
Yes we were talking about building 4 gates, the proxy is optional, especially if close by air. That is all this has ever been about. I said that the all-in build can't be held. You said it could and the problem is the prism not the adepts. I responded asking you what build a Terran can use to defend against the all-in and you start talking about 2gate builds.
The 4gate robo build in question is done on 2 base with a healthy probe count. You have no idea what the build is.
I've never seen the all in before
Read that. You just wrote that. Read it again. You've never seen the build before? I've been trying to tell you that since yesterday. Holy balls, progress. You have no idea what you're talking about. Read this, okay?
The Prism/Adept attack cannot be held without rushing out a Cyclone, and even then it's dicey.
That's not true and if it was, it would be a prism problem, not adept problem. Prism 6 range pickup and 2 sec warp are too powerful together.
I've never seen the all in before
How do you know what I said isn't true if you've never even seen it before by your own admission?
Why even bother chiming in to a discussion about a build you've never even seen? The problem is that there is no way to effectively hold off the attack, since the Terran player cannot build enough units in time. Except with one build that only works if you get lucky.
I responded asking you what build a Terran can use to defend against the all-in
I didn't respond to that specifically and the convo (when i say "we") isn't about you and me specifically when there are like 5 people posting. It's a discussion about balance, not an argument to be won
On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it.
I disagree, PvP doesn't need it at all
Care to elaborate? From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself. This is aggravated by the fact that the shadow is able to pass through forcefields. That said, the new photon overcharge is making things much better in PvP early game.
If they keep the pylon overcharge, there's no reason for armored adepts for PvP at least. I think the pylon charge pretty much solves the adept issue, with 2-3 pylons on your mineral line if they shade in there they pretty much lose them for free and you get a big advantage. I see a lot more people opening the double stalker first now, it's better for pressure and proxies.
And you probably should be able to FF the shades too, which would even further solidifies it.
I responded asking you what build a Terran can use to defend against the all-in
I didn't respond to that specifically and the convo (when i say "we") isn't about you and me specifically when there are like 5 people posting. It's a discussion about balance, not an argument to be won
No one in this thread other than you has at any point claimed there to be a balance issue regarding 2gate robo builds.
The OP is about the 4gate robo. I was posting about the 4gate robo. You told me I was wrong about the 4gate robo and then just now said you don't know what the build is.
Just admit you misunderstood and move on and stop making posts like this:
On September 22 2015 06:06 DinoMight wrote: If they reduce the damage by 1 from 23 to 22 the adept goes from 2-shotting marines and scvs to 3-shotting them.
Later in the game when marines have combat shields it's still 3 shots anyway.
Doesn't affect anything else.
Just saying.. easiest fix ever if it's really that broken.
It's not though, if anything the WP pickup range is
When it is clear that there is a problem beyond the Warp Prism as has been explained by several people several times in this thread and has been talked to death elsewhere.
I didn't respond to that specifically
I said it couldn't be held, you said what I said isn't true. I have the quote of you saying that in my previous post. I asked with what build can the attack be held. If this is supposed to be a discussion and not an argument to be won, please answer my question from the other day.
You've said multiple times that the attack can be held, and I've asked how many times. I'm asking again, how do you hold the attack?
That's the question the OP asked. That's the question I'm asking. And it's a question MorroW has asked many times. You've said the attack can be held, now please enlighten us. The question of how to hold the 4gate robo build is the topic of this entire thread.
On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it.
I disagree, PvP doesn't need it at all
Care to elaborate? From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself. This is aggravated by the fact that the shadow is able to pass through forcefields. That said, the new photon overcharge is making things much better in PvP early game.
If they keep the pylon overcharge, there's no reason for armored adepts for PvP at least. I think the pylon charge pretty much solves the adept issue, with 2-3 pylons on your mineral line if they shade in there they pretty much lose them for free and you get a big advantage. I see a lot more people opening the double stalker first now, it's better for pressure and proxies.
And you probably should be able to FF the shades too, which would even further solidifies it.
I agree, had some people send the first few pairs of adepts in, sac them and end up losing 4 adepts for 3 probes. Then you have 6 units vs 2 before warpgate is done
Because of the scan range change, stalkers can actually attack adepts and fall back and then attack again and the adept will never be able to fire, you can do this even with small numbers of both units. It's literally impossible for me to test on the beta though because i have a 170 ping to the only beta server and there's an extra delay added on that by sc2 engine, giving me a quarter second lag on unit commands (which breaks stalker vs adept and phoenix vs muta)
On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it.
I disagree, PvP doesn't need it at all
Care to elaborate? From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself. This is aggravated by the fact that the shadow is able to pass through forcefields. That said, the new photon overcharge is making things much better in PvP early game.
If they keep the pylon overcharge, there's no reason for armored adepts for PvP at least. I think the pylon charge pretty much solves the adept issue, with 2-3 pylons on your mineral line if they shade in there they pretty much lose them for free and you get a big advantage. I see a lot more people opening the double stalker first now, it's better for pressure and proxies.
And you probably should be able to FF the shades too, which would even further solidifies it.
I agree, had some people send the first few pairs of adepts in, sac them and end up losing 4 adepts for 3 probes. Then you have 6 units vs 2 before warpgate is done
Because of the scan range change, stalkers can actually attack adepts and fall back and then attack again and the adept will never be able to fire, you can do this even with small numbers of both units. It's literally impossible for me to test on the beta though because i have a 170 ping to the only beta server and there's an extra delay added on that by sc2 engine, giving me a quarter second lag on unit commands (which breaks stalker vs adept and phoenix vs muta)
Don't adepts have this nice thing called a shade that allows them to run past stalkers?
On September 22 2015 07:52 Tiaraju9 wrote: DinoMight's suggestion "just works". I'll add that Blizzard should really go forward with that armored flag change. PvP needs it.
I disagree, PvP doesn't need it at all
Care to elaborate? From my low master-ish PvP games, its hard to kill adepts before they kill a lot of workers unless you have adepts yourself. This is aggravated by the fact that the shadow is able to pass through forcefields. That said, the new photon overcharge is making things much better in PvP early game.
If they keep the pylon overcharge, there's no reason for armored adepts for PvP at least. I think the pylon charge pretty much solves the adept issue, with 2-3 pylons on your mineral line if they shade in there they pretty much lose them for free and you get a big advantage. I see a lot more people opening the double stalker first now, it's better for pressure and proxies.
And you probably should be able to FF the shades too, which would even further solidifies it.
I agree, had some people send the first few pairs of adepts in, sac them and end up losing 4 adepts for 3 probes. Then you have 6 units vs 2 before warpgate is done
Because of the scan range change, stalkers can actually attack adepts and fall back and then attack again and the adept will never be able to fire, you can do this even with small numbers of both units. It's literally impossible for me to test on the beta though because i have a 170 ping to the only beta server and there's an extra delay added on that by sc2 engine, giving me a quarter second lag on unit commands (which breaks stalker vs adept and phoenix vs muta)
Don't adepts have this nice thing called a shade that allows them to run past stalkers?
Sure but
1; useless offensively when the stalkers are stood in the mineral line next to 2 pylons, a MSC and a bunch of probes, you have no way to deal damage
2; using shade offensively to commit to a fight early game is a pretty bad idea unless your army is stronger. Stalker can still micro back and run faster if you do that; you're the one that can't retreat.
3; vulnerable to poking as you can't shoot back. Been in the situation a bunch of times where i have 5 adepts and a guy has 4 stalkers and there's the choice of either waste MSC energy or let him fire for free on adepts/probes. If you stnad there he'll shoot you, if you run at him then he'll kite and never take a hit and if you run away, he'll attack your other stuff. If you mix in stalkers and have way less stalkers than him, you're still vulnerable
It's really sad how players how many players have posted comments in this thread, started by a guy asking for help, saying what he's asking help dealing with can be dealt with and yet have never bothered to explain how. They just derail the thread into talks about balance (after saying the they're a solution they're aware of, but never sharing it) and random discussions about PvP in a thread called 'TvP Adept Play.'
Imagine, if during the HotS beta for the week the Reaper had been given HP regen and LoS up cliffs but still had +damage to light, some poor Protoss player had posted on the forums asking 'How to survive Reapers in TvP,' only to be greeted with a horde of Terran players saying 'It's no big deal man, just like, build units. It's no big deal at all. What? You're asking for an actual build suggestion? Well, I'm not going to tell you. But it's no big deal trust me. Now, let's talk about TvT.'
All these guys just want their cheap ladder wins and don't care about what good for the game. They'd rather grab a few free wins in the beta and tell other players that their experience isn't true and that they can totally hold an attack that they're saying they can't hold without ever suggesting how to hold it. Because some ez winz in a beta mean more to them then the good of the game.
You know what? Your feedback matters, especially in beta. This Adept/Prism has been in the game for patch after patch. If no one complains, it won't be dealt with quickly. And the longer it takes to be dealt with, the less time there will be to fine tune whatever changes need to happen.
A single post here on TL a while back got the ball rolling on a bunch of changes that ended up having a huge impact on SC2. It probably helped save some players careers. Imagine if everyone in the community were like Dino or Cyro instead of theDWF, and had the attitude of 'I don't know what the build your referring to is, I've never even seen it before, but I know more about it than you do.'
What would we have? We'd have 2011 Reaper play every single TvZ and 1-1-1 killing Protoss players left and right. You guys just want cheap wins, not great games. If you wanted more than that, before posting in a threat by a guy asking for help, just to tell him he doesn't need help, you might look into the situation, even a little. But no, we have a guy claiming he has a VoD of a defense, that turns out to be a VoD of a game without the build in question even being used and another guy that comes out with this kinda of junk:
The Prism/Adept attack cannot be held without rushing out a Cyclone, and even then it's dicey.
That's not true
And then:
I've never seen the all in before
How does he know if my statement isn't true, if he's never seen the build before by his own admission?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit He just doesn't care. He just want things his way, and to hell with 1/3rd of the player base and to hell with good games for viewers. If he likes a unit, even if it breaks the game, he wants it to stay. He won't even bother watching a vod, he just covers his eyes and ears and repeats over and over that there's no problem.
That's the kind of attitude that helped keep BL/Infestor around.
And then there are guys suggesting you build bunkers blindly throughout your base. I don't even know what that's about...
He was not talking about your crazy 1 base adept all in with proxied robo.
Protoss can just go fast expand so safely to get the economic lead.
I'm in LOTV beta at high platinum
You brought up an entirely different game situation - seriously, you have the next level BS here. You're not in the thread to help the OP; you're here to complain about a specific opening that's similar in looks but not at all the same to what OP is asking for and make balance comments about how your all in can't be held, terran can't scout etc at pro level. An eco build with 2gates, a nexus and a robo at home doesn't play out anything like a 1 base adept all in with a proxy robo and i never gave comments or sought to give comments about that because it's not what was in discussion (from the OP or other posters) or relevant at all until you brought it up afterwards.
I have given some advice for the situation that OP was in (going back several pages), as have several others - you just sit around and constantly attack people, completely misinterpreting posts to do so if you have nothing to use. It's pretty much impossible to respond to you or anyone else here without saying something that will get an angry post from you, nobody else is arguing here.
You brought up an entirely different game situation - seriously, you have the next level BS here. You're not in the thread to help the OP; you're here to complain about a specific opening that's similar but not at all the same to what OP is asking for and make balance comments about how your all in can't be held, terran can't scout etc at pro level. I have given advice for the situation that OP was in, as have several others - you just sit around and constantly attack people. It's pretty much impossible to respond without saying something that you will attack in turn which is why i sat out of the thread for a while in the first place.
Why do you think I'm talking about a 1 base build? I am not talking about a 1 base build, I've never said 1 base. As said by me and others here, the build is on 2 bases, with 4gates and 1robo (proxy optional) and hits with 8 Adepts at around a little after 4:00 to 4:30. That is the build that people are upset about. That is the build that MorroW says can't be beat.
I have just gone over all your posts and I have seen no suggestions or advice from you on how a Terran player can defend this attack. Only vague statements about how it can be stopped, but no actual suggestion. Perhaps I am mistaken? Since I seem to have missed something, please quote the post where you have a suggestion. If I am wrong about this, I will acknowledge it.
You might have noticed that CheddarToss and I had a fine conversation and found plenty of common ground. My frustration with you is that you repeat the same statements over and over without answering any questions and talk about builds other than one in question.
I try to be very straight and to the point and acknowledge things head on. If I am mistaken about anything in this post, I believe it is all clearly formatted and unambiguous enough that you may easily demonstrate it.
EDIT: You seem to have edited your post since I quoted you and added some detail. Once again, I am confused beyond words at your continued talk about 2gate builds and 1 base builds. What has lead you to believe that these are under discussion? I'm sure a 2gate robo build is an excellent build to go into the mid-game with. But once again, it is the 2 base, 4 gate build described numerous times in this thread that has been giving Terran players grief for many patches now.
You also talk about me bring up different game situations and BSing. I have been talking about a 2 base, 4 gate robo build from the very beginning. The build is well known, and what I always assumed was under discussion. As I've said before, I don't think I've seen anyone else in this thread talk about 1 base builds, or 2gate builds. I've never had any desire to talk about those builds and wish you'd stop bringing them up.
On September 22 2015 16:56 KadaverBB wrote: Take it to PM guys, I think we've had enough bickering for a while
I actually don't mind the robust between Cyro and Boeh, but I do have something to add. Cyro is a long and storied member of this community, and while you may--okay, vehemently--disagree with him (as I have, on occasion), you are being unnecessarily combative, Boeh. You've been here a while too, Boeh, lurking, I guess (with such a low post count), but just make your argument, make it strong, and maybe leave the vitriol out?
Now, you called me out--implicitly--for suggesting balance ideas. I did that because the Adept is currently broken, and the question, "How to deal with Adept play in TvP" doesn't have a good answer. I think the way to deal with Adept play is to discuss the experience, and suggest balance changes for the Blizzard TL lurkers.
Allright, I don't wanna sound mad at all. I just wanna have some tips and advices.
But how can you counter this build with Terran?
Cyclone expand always seemed to be the best opening vs any kind of protoss allins mostly warpprism adept. You grab expand before factory then techlab on the barrack and you lift the factory. After the factory you have the choice between going standard bio and adding 3 rax or going mech . Either way you should have from 3 to 4 cyclone before a 2 base warprism adept attack comes to your base .
It depends how aware your are but the warpprism shouldn't warp more than one round of unit before getting killed by cyclones... GL
On September 22 2015 16:56 KadaverBB wrote: Take it to PM guys, I think we've had enough bickering for a while
I actually don't mind the robust between Cyro and Boeh, but I do have something to add. Cyro is a long and storied member of this community, and while you may--okay, vehemently--disagree with him (as I have, on occasion), you are being unnecessarily combative, Boeh. You've been here a while too, Boeh, lurking, I guess (with such a low post count), but just make your argument, make it strong, and maybe leave the vitriol out?
I suppose I feel somewhat provoked since he keeps misreading (to give him the benefit of the doubt) my '2's' as 1's, and has done so for many pages. I gave up on talking to him midway through, and then he started up again. After the 3rd post trying to say the same thing, it does become frustrating to have the same person misrepresent it in the same way and never acknowledge it. As I said in an earlier post, I actually thought he was just being a troll and I'm genuinely fascinated to know why he's been insisting that 4gate robo on 2bases is a 1 base build with 20 probes.
I think that if a person follows his posts and keeps in mind that context of the topic, the way he's been posting has been rather surreal. Nothing he says makes any sense to me. Anyway, I appreciate the fair shake.
Now, you called me out--implicitly--for suggesting balance ideas. I did that because the Adept is currently broken, and the question, "How to deal with Adept play in TvP" doesn't have a good answer. I think the way to deal with Adept play is to discuss the experience, and suggest balance changes for the Blizzard TL lurkers.
I hope you don't refer to me with this. Of course I agree there's no good reply to the unit in TvP. It's been the same problem for an unreasonable amount of time, with very little acknowledgement from Blizzard. Being vocal about the issue is necessary. Though, I do think that the Adept's problem is also one of concept and design, I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed.
Cyclone expand always seemed to be the best opening vs any kind of protoss allins mostly warpprism adept. You grab expand before factory then techlab on the barrack and you lift the factory. After the factory you have the choice between going standard bio and adding 3 rax or going mech . Either way you should have from 3 to 4 cyclone before a 2 base warprism adept attack comes to your base .
No, you only have 1 Cyclone, it pops out 10-20 seconds before the attack hits. Maybe you can get more by skipping on marines? But then the Protoss player can just ignore the Cyclones and attack probes. I think there's a replay in this thread and I'm sure there are vods you can find on youtube.
No, you only have 1 Cyclone, it pops out 10-20 seconds before the attack hits. Maybe you can get more by skipping on marines? But then the Protoss player can just ignore the Cyclones and attack probes. I think there's a replay in this thread and I'm sure there are vods you can find on youtube
i'm talking about a cyclone expand not a mass marine into cyclones Your 3 rd cyclone pop at around 4 min and you should have 3 barracks pumping marines ready. It works perfectly
No, you only have 1 Cyclone, it pops out 10-20 seconds before the attack hits. Maybe you can get more by skipping on marines? But then the Protoss player can just ignore the Cyclones and attack probes. I think there's a replay in this thread and I'm sure there are vods you can find on youtube
i'm talking about a cyclone expand not a mass marine into cyclones Your 3 rd cyclone pop at around 4 min and you should have 3 barracks pumping marines ready. It works perfectly
So, 1 rax > expo > factory > 2 more rax? What's the total unit count?
On September 22 2015 16:56 KadaverBB wrote: Take it to PM guys, I think we've had enough bickering for a while
I actually don't mind the robust between Cyro and Boeh, but I do have something to add. Cyro is a long and storied member of this community, and while you may--okay, vehemently--disagree with him (as I have, on occasion), you are being unnecessarily combative, Boeh. You've been here a while too, Boeh, lurking, I guess (with such a low post count), but just make your argument, make it strong, and maybe leave the vitriol out?
I suppose I feel somewhat provoked since he keeps misreading (to give him the benefit of the doubt) my '2's' as 1's, and has done so for many pages. I gave up on talking to him midway through, and then he started up again. After the 3rd post trying to say the same thing, it does become frustrating to have the same person misrepresent it in the same way and never acknowledge it. As I said in an earlier post, I actually thought he was just being a troll and I'm genuinely fascinated to know why he's been insisting that 4gate robo on 2bases is a 1 base build with 20 probes.
I think that if a person follows his posts and keeps in mind that context of the topic, the way he's been posting has been rather surreal. Nothing he says makes any sense to me. Anyway, I appreciate the fair shake.
Now, you called me out--implicitly--for suggesting balance ideas. I did that because the Adept is currently broken, and the question, "How to deal with Adept play in TvP" doesn't have a good answer. I think the way to deal with Adept play is to discuss the experience, and suggest balance changes for the Blizzard TL lurkers.
I hope you don't refer to me with this. Of course I agree there's no good reply to the unit in TvP. It's been the same problem for an unreasonable amount of time, with very little acknowledgement from Blizzard. Being vocal about the issue is necessary. Though, I do think that the Adept's problem is also one of concept and design, I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed.
Cyclone expand always seemed to be the best opening vs any kind of protoss allins mostly warpprism adept. You grab expand before factory then techlab on the barrack and you lift the factory. After the factory you have the choice between going standard bio and adding 3 rax or going mech . Either way you should have from 3 to 4 cyclone before a 2 base warprism adept attack comes to your base .
No, you only have 1 Cyclone, it pops out 10-20 seconds before the attack hits. Maybe you can get more by skipping on marines? But then the Protoss player can just ignore the Cyclones and attack probes. I think there's a replay in this thread and I'm sure there are vods you can find on youtube.
I was referring to you, but it's possible I just misread. It seemed to me like you disliked that people were discussing balance ideas in this thread. My personal opinion is that balance tweaking is the only reasonable answer to this unit, right now.
No, you only have 1 Cyclone, it pops out 10-20 seconds before the attack hits. Maybe you can get more by skipping on marines? But then the Protoss player can just ignore the Cyclones and attack probes. I think there's a replay in this thread and I'm sure there are vods you can find on youtube
i'm talking about a cyclone expand not a mass marine into cyclones Your 3 rd cyclone pop at around 4 min and you should have 3 barracks pumping marines ready. It works perfectly
^ This is interesting. We should all try it.
Also, 1-base Ghost w/ cloak punishes early-game Adept play. It is very easy for the Protoss to scout this though (unless you delay it slightly, and build a second rax), but you may find that some Protoss just fall apart under the pressure. If you've never done the build, it looks something like this:
- gas first - rax - second gas - orbital and tech lab - ghost academy (research cloak immediately) - build non-stop Ghosts - send first two to Protoss base, rally third two mineral line - save scans
Basic concept: Ghosts fair well against Adepts head-to-head (they fucking better, lol). Cloak at the last possible minute and infiltrate the Protoss base. Focus only on sniping probes. Pay attention to their detection capabilities. If their robo is producing, get ready to scan and snipe the observer. By the time the observer pops you should have two-three Ghosts in their base. You will take the observer down very quickly. If they build an oracle, sac one of your Ghosts for an EMP, so it can't use envision. If they proxy the Stargate, and try to counter attack your mineral line, your third Ghost is waiting with an EMP.
It is a micro-intensive strat intended to do game-ending damage. The game usually just ends because you kill every single probe they have. If they stay in the game, skip a round of Ghosts, drop one mule, and build a CC. They literally cannot kill you without detection, and Ghosts can snipe or EMP both forms of mobile detection, and their unit count is so low that one bunker and you're super safe. Build a few more rounds of units, attack and win (that's if they don't leave, which they always do).
Like most cheese plays, if they stop you easily (this play is easy to stop, actually), and they have a Nexus, you're super dead. Just GG.
On September 23 2015 04:25 TimeSpiral wrote: I was referring to you, but it's possible I just misread. It seemed to me like you disliked that people were discussing balance ideas in this thread. My personal opinion is that balance tweaking is the only reasonable answer to this unit, right now.
Nah, I think you misread or I mistyped.
And, yeah, that Cyclone expand build sounds interesting. 7 pages of posts until someone suggesting something actually suggests something reasonable. It'll hold off Oracles as well.
On September 23 2015 09:40 Cyro wrote: Because cyclone just got a huge buff
Dude, really? I had no idea, thanks! My offer from the other thread still stands, btw.
Regarding rushing out Cyclones. It seems okay to me as far as not dying instantly. But does anyone have any thoughts on transitions or putting on pressure. I still feel like it's pigeon holing into 1 blind build where you just sit back and hope your not getting out macro'd.
Not sure what makes me more angry right now .. that Adepts (across all BOs and in all MUs) are broken as fu** OR that Blizzard does nothing about it. Everyone (players, casters, pros) is addressing this issue for weeks now, we can back it up with the redbull results (HuK/MC destroying world class Terrans with Adepts), Protoss players aren't even trying to negate anymore and Blizzard does NOTHING.
They are literally so OP right now that a hotfix should have been considered weeks ago, I really really don't get it. The entire XvsP-beta is totally biased by adepts and therefore we don't get reliable design/balance information at all. And I am not (or not only) talking about specific warpprism all-in builds, I am talking about every protoss army composition that has Adepts in it.
Sorry for being slightly mad here, but this is what you become when you play the beta as a terran player on a dialy basis
Adepts are seen in a disproportionate amount of games because they're strongest in low numbers so every game can (and probably will) have them (which isn't neccesarily a bad thing, pretty much every HOTS every game has Stalkers and Zerglings in the early game). Other strong units may be as strong or even worse in certain situations but it's not something that comes up every game so it wouldn't be as obvious until the game had some time to settle.
I'm not sure of the best fix but anti light damage starting off lower and getting +2 per upgrade would probably be good; it's more of a thing in early game (1-2 base) PvT games than any other matchup. That would make it take 1.5x longer for them to kill scv's and marines but leave probes, drones, zerglings and some other important units taking the same amount of hits; i don't feel that the interaction with speedlings is bad in the general harass cases as without a warp prism it's easily taken care of by the zerg, the WP is the problem in that matchup.
I'd also rather have a different upgrade to +shields on council, it's a bit weird and also contributes to the overwhelming strengh of terran once they do get a blob up with some medivacs and ghosts and you can no longer build adepts and trade well enough to stay in the game
Adepts in low numbers stand out as doing pretty high damage but if you have 12 or 20 of them with the upgrade they stand around tickling a lot of stuff but taking ages to die in all 3 matchups. They also start off strong and get weaker because their damage is very stagnant while zerg gets some very hard hitters (such as ravager, lurker) capable of decimating armies, terran gets stim+EMP and adepts kinda just get more health and shuffle around behind eachother trying to get into range.
On September 23 2015 18:41 Cyro wrote: Adepts are seen in a disproportionate amount of games because they're strongest in low numbers so every game can (and probably will) have them (which isn't neccesarily a bad thing, pretty much every HOTS every game has Stalkers and Zerglings in the early game).
I agree. I really love the idea that Protoss gets a "solid core unit". It makes the game more stable and the race less tricky/gimmicky.
On September 23 2015 18:41 Cyro wrote: I'm not sure of the best fix but anti light damage starting off lower and getting +2 per upgrade would probably be good; it's more of a thing in early game (1-2 base) PvT games than any other matchup. That would make it take 1.5x longer for them to kill scv's and marines but leave probes, drones, zerglings and some other important units taking the same amount of hits;
A good start, but definitely not enough. Adepts with these changes will still be better as Zealots in almost all cases. Their stats (HP, Damage etc.) and their ability are simply way too good for the relatively low costs. And there will still be the problem that Adepts are "badly" designed, as they are replacing the Zealot as a meatshield and mid-lategame harass unit.
I would love to see a significant HP/Shield reduction AND a damage change (esp. vs light units). The Warpprism should be addressed as well. The incredible short warpin time of 2 seconds and the insane large pickup radius have to be considered as a JOKE.
By the way: Please don't suggest to buff the zealot instead to make them used again. The Zealot is and was allways fine and appropriate for it's costs. We simply don't see Zealots anymore because Adepts are way better/overpowered for comparable costs.
A good start, but definitely not enough. Adepts with these changes will still be better as Zealots in almost all cases
Adepts have several weaknesses and vulnerabilities that zealots don't have. Two of the easiest examples are ghosts (2/3'rds of adept health is shields while only 1/3'rd of zealot health is shields) and damaging stuff that isn't light - zealots wreck buildings, tanks, marauders etc so they're built a lot today past the early game in PvT.
Changing the shields would mitigate the first one there but adepts would still do bad damage against non-light.
By the way: Please don't suggest to buff the zealot instead to make them used again. The Zealot is and was allways fine and appropriate for it's costs.
Zealots got hugely buffed in Legacy. I didn't realize how much until i was playing pvp and warped in 3 zealots to defend against 3 enemy zealots. I had +2 attack and he was 0/0 - but he had charge and he won the fight. Zealots are still used quite a bit, just not in the early game.
The balance has been tipped so that you're more likely to build adepts or zealots rather than stalkers now, though part of that (as i have said before) is because stalkers are kinda bad even in HOTS against some things and any unit that's even decent at those things would sometimes be built as an alternative.
On September 23 2015 18:41 Cyro wrote: Adepts are seen in a disproportionate amount of games because they're strongest in low numbers so every game can (and probably will) have them (which isn't neccesarily a bad thing, pretty much every HOTS every game has Stalkers and Zerglings in the early game).
I agree. I really love the idea that Protoss gets a "solid core unit". It makes the game more stable and the race less tricky/gimmicky.
On September 23 2015 18:41 Cyro wrote: I'm not sure of the best fix but anti light damage starting off lower and getting +2 per upgrade would probably be good; it's more of a thing in early game (1-2 base) PvT games than any other matchup. That would make it take 1.5x longer for them to kill scv's and marines but leave probes, drones, zerglings and some other important units taking the same amount of hits;
A good start, but definitely not enough. Adepts with these changes will still be better as Zealots in almost all cases. Their stats (HP, Damage etc.) and their ability are simply way too good for the relatively low costs. And there will still be the problem that Adepts are "badly" designed, as they are replacing the Zealot as a meatshield and mid-lategame harass unit.
I would love to see a significant HP/Shield reduction AND a damage change (esp. vs light units). The Warpprism should be addressed as well. The incredible short warpin time of 2 seconds and the insane large pickup radius have to be considered as a JOKE.
By the way: Please don't suggest to buff the zealot instead to make them used again. The Zealot is and was allways fine and appropriate for it's costs. We simply don't see Zealots anymore because Adepts are way better/overpowered for comparable costs.
You sound like someone who would like Protoss to be deleted from the game, given how you see imbalance in almost everything Protoss has. Try playing Protoss a bit and what you'll see is this:
1) Zealots are not fine for the cost. Only someone who is biased against Protoss can say something like that. The longer the game goes on, the harder and harder they get wrecked by mineral only units of Z/T. The "on impact damage" should be looked at. 30 was way too high, 8 is definitely too low.
2) Adepts better than Zealots? Of course, right now there is hardly any Protoss unit that is worse than the Zealot. This is why they are so under represented in PvP.
3) You can't reduce Adept's damage and also nerf it's HP/shields. As a core unit it has to be viable throughout the game. So either nerf damage or nerf HP but increase damage in mid game (upgrade).
4) The WP pick up is not the problem, it is the fast warpin. Pickup radius should be large, otherwise WP would not be effective enough in LotV. There are now new tools for every race, which make this a necessity.
1) Zealots are not fine for the cost. Only someone who is biased against Protoss can say something like that. The longer the game goes on, the harder and harder they get wrecked by mineral only units of Z/T. The "on impact damage" should be looked at. 30 was way too high, 8 is definitely too low.
It is a problem of scaling as zealots are melee units. I'd actually like to see a size reduction or small splash damage component to them; that would have no effect at all to engagements with small amounts of units but make them scale better. Other stuff could be tuned accordingly.
3) You can't reduce Adept's damage and also nerf it's HP/shields. As a core unit it has to be viable throughout the game. So either nerf damage or nerf HP but increase damage in mid game (upgrade).
I agree, it's clearly very strong vs low numbers of units but it's also fairly useless later in the game if terran has a bio blob with some medivacs and ghosts. A couple EMP's and you'll lose your whole army while killing a small fraction of his (because of not being able to overwhelm medivacs, do any real burst damage and no longer living for any length of time with no shields). It falls off a lot when protoss is capable of making big/tech armies too; other units stand up to them better and disruptors do huge damage - i'm fairly sure they can oneshot huge clumps of adepts and that + adepts not fighting well in huge armies makes them worth building less as the game goes on.
4) The WP pick up is not the problem, it is the fast warpin. Pickup radius should be large, otherwise WP would not be effective enough in LotV. There are now new tools for every race, which make this a necessity.
I think the current values are silly but 0 range isn't nearly as fun or skill based to play with. HOTS warp-in time was about 3.8 real seconds; i'd like to see 3 range and 5 seconds as actual sane and fun values rather than keeping the current stuff for 2 months and then deciding fuck it revert to HOTS like blizzard tends to do sometimes.
The thing most people don't realize with adept and that's probably the reason why blizzard never took action against them is that as we saw in Redbull players like bomber are still stuck in hots or even worse in Wol. They played marine few marauder and medivac all games long, almost no mine and they didn't used any new lotv unit or buffed unit. The adept is supposed to be counter to marine so the loss seems reasonnable.
Like i said earlier Cyclone opening is the answer to adept timing and overall cyclone is an extremly strong unit in TvP cos it can beat any protoss unit while beeing cost effectiv. (assuming the T abuse cyclone range) You might see this build as a pigeonhole but it was kinda the same with reaper expand in HOTS but cyclone expand is versatile cos you can defend any timing and cyclone are good harassing tools aswell.
All the suggestions about nerfing adept are too harsh. Currently adept DPS vs non light is abyssal and even vs Light the dps isn't that strong (10) and weaker than a zealot. What adept need is either nerfing HP or putting shade on upgrd. The shield upgrd is bad design aswell it should be adressed and replaced by some DPS upgrd ( + shade or hp if nerfed previously)
On September 23 2015 21:18 owlman wrote: Like i said earlier Cyclone opening is the answer to adept timing and overall cyclone is an extremly strong unit in TvP cos it can beat any protoss unit while beeing cost effectiv. (assuming the T abuse cyclone range) You might see this build as a pigeonhole but it was kinda the same with reaper expand in HOTS but cyclone expand is versatile cos you can defend any timing and cyclone are good harassing tools aswell.
Show me how to defend with cyclones vs comitting adept attacks, its not possible. The cyclone dps/speed is too low to kill the warpprism fast enough.
Cyclone's are ..
... slow & very "fat". They can easily being traped by forcefields and are too slow to hunt down oracles or warpprisms. ... very very bad for scouting (compared to the reaper) ... expensive and gas-intensive ... slow producing ... very bad without intensive micro and/or somewhat harder to use
The problem with early/heavy factory play in general is, that you have to invest a lot and that your bio army will be significantly smaller. Also keep in mind that a more diversified army composition for terran is very bad: reduced mobility, more/expensive infrastructure needed, hard to micro all the different units appropriate, double the amount of upgrades (bio + mech) needed.
Sooo, good luck with your double gas techlab factory!
Show me how to defend with cyclones vs comitting adept attacks, its not possible. The cyclone dps/speed is too low to kill the warpprism fast enough.
They just buffed the AA attack.
... very very bad for scouting (compared to the reaper)
Reaper usually arrives in base about 3-5 seconds after the first Adept finishes, it's not very good for scouting any more
I've seen little cyclone play before this recent buff but i doubt they're reliant on vehicle attack (just like liberators are not reliant on air attack)
Cyclones have roughly the same speed as stalker + 14 range or so. And stalker can snipre WP or oracle with good position it takes less than 3sec for 4 cyclones to kill the WP = 1 warpin like i said in my small guide beforehand.
if you had 4 cyclones you could just kill the adepts no way to get them early with a good opening. Just 1-2 cyclones before were already a good response before they buffed the AA attack so i expect them to be much better at threatening a prism
4:20 LOTV time 12 marines 3 cyclones the 4th one is up around 4:50. (expand is taken just after starting OC) You supposed to be on 2 bases not 3 or 4 or w/e so your army should be in your base, that's enough to kill the WP if it come too close. Don't forget that the WP has to stay iddle at least 4 sec to warp any units. Anyway DK will nerf offensiv warping back to 5 sec that's so obvious so the problem will be even more solved
I don't like to give away my pro strategies lolol, but the cyclone talk is overwhelming that I felt the need to share my thoughts. If protoss is going 1 rax fe instead of getting the 8 marines and 2 cyclones by 4:35 you need to be pushing at 4:20 with 2 TANKS 1 scv and 8 marines. FYI... I take my CC after fac.
The reason for this is because of the new photon overcharge the tank is no longer out ranged by a giant nexus cannon and you actually have the ability to pressure.
As i'm pushing out I build an ebay to get a turret back home and to build 1 turret or more if needed with the 2 bunkers i will build with my 8 marines and 2 tanks. I personally like to play mech so i'm transitioning into 2fac starport with ghosts afterwards, but it could easily be adapted for bio.
NOTE : I play random, so to be honest it's not often that I roll TvP, but lately when I have this is what i've been doing and it's worked pretty well for me. I hope it helps
yeah I'd be curious, I used to not do the wp adept all in because I wanted to learn late game pvt but it just seems too hard for protoss to win past the adept bullshit, I've been doing it lately and nobody held it so far
On September 24 2015 03:38 Ouija wrote: I don't like to give away my pro strategies lolol, but the cyclone talk is overwhelming that I felt the need to share my thoughts. If protoss is going 1 rax fe instead of getting the 8 marines and 2 cyclones by 4:35 you need to be pushing at 4:20 with 2 TANKS 1 scv and 8 marines. FYI... I take my CC after fac.
Guess me, I tried, but first tanks are totally useless against adept (shadow form: hello tanks!), without 1 medivac per tank (yep that sounds wierd) , and second point I never managed to teleport my army from my base to protoss expand, so you need 30 to 40 more seconds before getting raped with this push.
On September 24 2015 03:38 Ouija wrote: I don't like to give away my pro strategies lolol, but the cyclone talk is overwhelming that I felt the need to share my thoughts. If protoss is going 1 rax fe instead of getting the 8 marines and 2 cyclones by 4:35 you need to be pushing at 4:20 with 2 TANKS 1 scv and 8 marines. FYI... I take my CC after fac.
Guess me, I tried, but first tanks are totally useless against adept (shadow form: hello tanks!), without 1 medivac per tank (yep that sounds wierd) , and second point I never managed to teleport my army from my base to protoss expand, so you need 30 to 40 more seconds before getting raped with this push.
Maybe on 4 player maps, but maps like terraform you can quickly reach the natural with little resistance. Dont siege up while walking across the map. 4 adepts wont kill 2 tanks and your marines, just dont' lose any marines and make sure the tanks take the damage. They can be repaired once you set up the bunkers.
Marines gain extra range in the bunkers and with tanks hugging them the protoss would have to sacrifice all their adepts just to kill the tanks and then the 2 bunkers are still there.
On September 24 2015 04:05 ROOTFayth wrote: and how do you kill the warp prism with 10 adepts in ur base
I guess at that point it becomes a base trade and you can just unsiege and walk into the protoss main base and start building bunkers and turrets.. Snipe the robo first or the pylon charging it so they can't get any immortals out. float over to your defenses and go from there..
This is a great post. It's damn funny to see the huge turnaround on the forums within the last week on this. Even people like Cyro are starting to come around. Guess there's a limit to how far you can stick your head in the sand.
I have not changed my opinions on the adept or liberator. We were never on the same page about pretty much anything discussed though because you was not clear at first and misinterpreted several things that i said
I have not changed my opinions on the adept or liberator. We were never on the same page about pretty much anything discussed, though because you was not clear at first and misinterpreted several things that i said
I said people like you, not you. I.E. people who were stubbornly claiming that there was no problem with the Adept even after all this time. Obviously, I can't speak for you.
Also, I've offered to donate 100 bucks if you explain in an honest and clear manner where I was unclear and mislead you, and explain why you insisted on talking about the wrong build even after being told repeatedly by several people what was being discussed. Why not take this opportunity to raise money for your favorite charity while one upping an asshole on TL? It'll be fun and for a good cause.
I did misunderstand one of your posts, I admit, because it was so bizarrely irrelevant I preformed too much mental gymnastics trying to make sense of it in the context of the thread. I should have read it more carefully and I apologize. Had I done so, I would have realized that you had no idea what you were talking about much sooner.
IDEA for the Adept's Shade Had a conversation with my brother last night, my Archon partner, and we were discussing the Adept and how it's Shade ability causes so many problems. Maybe I should read all of Theo's post before I continue (but it's just so long! That's what she said ... okay, done.).
It seems as though a fair Adept count in an engagement has the ability to remove, or greatly reduce positional advantages for the opponent. Specifically, a Full-Frontal Attack by the Protoss can quickly turn into a Full Surround, or Pincer. This is accomplished by shading through the enemy army, and popping up behind it. The advantages of a Full Surround or Pincer don't need to be explained (but if you do need an explanation, you can read the post in my signature), but there is another feature at play here: The Protoss army loses no--or a negligible amount of--DPS by instantly transforming a frontal attack into a full surround.
A few thoughts ...
- Shade Canceling Threshold and Animation Tell: If the Shade lasts 6 seconds, you can only cancel it within the first 4 seconds (don't know the exact timings now). If you cancel the Shade within the threshold, the Shade animation changes slightly to indicate that it will not transfer.
- Friendly Shading Only: The Shade cannot pass through hostile units. This seems like a no-brainer, right?
- DPS Dampening: maybe activating the Shade, and transfering to the Shade location could impose a brief delay before the Adept could continue attacking. The fact that it can move, attack, and maybe instantly teleport at huge ranges, without missing a shot just seems like a bit much. Eh?
Unfortunately, these are design suggestions, and I think the design ship may have sailed already : /
- Shade Canceling Threshold and Animation Tell: If the Shade lasts 6 seconds, you can only cancel it within the first 4 seconds (don't know the exact timings now). If you cancel the Shade within the threshold, the Shade animation changes slightly to indicate that it will not transfer.
As I've said earlier, this could be a good solution. It is worth testing.
On September 25 2015 02:21 TimeSpiral wrote:- Friendly Shading Only: The Shade cannot pass through hostile units. This seems like a no-brainer, right?
I don't agree. IMO the game shouldn't give you further incentive to stay clumped and use F2. The best part about the shade, is that it gives P the same capability to spread enemies thin and harass multiple points, that T have had with the medivacs since WoL.
On September 25 2015 02:21 TimeSpiral wrote:- DPS Dampening: maybe activating the Shade, and transfering to the Shade location could impose a brief delay before the Adept could continue attacking. The fact that it can move, attack, and maybe instantly teleport at huge ranges, without missing a shot just seems like a bit much. Eh?
Unfortunately, these are design suggestions, and I think the design ship may have sailed already : /
To me this sounds like a bad suggestion. Too many P units are already clunky or slow to respond, which negates micro. And lack of micro potential is exactly the reason why we end up with a-move units, after the balancing is done.
Edit: Just to make clear what I mean with the last point.
Just look at the Immortal or Voidray. Both of these units have a really long turning animation and low acceleration, which reduces the potential to increase their usefulness with kiting (micro). Now look at the Viking or the Banshee, which both have much faster acceleration and turning speed. You can do nice and for viewers potentially sweet looking micro with Vikings/Banshees. In comparison Immortals and Voidrays are just dull. I want Adepts to be exciting and micro intensive and not to be just smaller versions of the Immortal or Voidray.
Edit 2: If anything the shot animation should be looked at to make the unit more responsive. And after that is done, the suggestions made by Theo in the other thread should be tested.
I really don't get the state of adepts right now. I had to come here and post... I know this is probably wrong, and I havent' posted in a few years even. But this game I just played was absolutely disgusting. I have no idea what to do. Yes I'm ranting, and I don't really care if anyone cares to watch this. But I need help with mass adept all-ins from protoss with warp prism. As you can see from the replay, I go straight to 3rax and pump units, getting stim asap and building marauders and marines as much as I can. Not only do I scan and see EXACTLY what he is doing, but I set up bunker at natural and in my main - I have units blocking all possible warp in slots. What does he do? Just teleports all his adepts ONTOP of my army. Literally just moves them onto my army. I don't think I slipped on macro whatsoever this game. Anyway, thats about it - here's the link if anyone wants to have a look and tell me what I did wrong or what I could do better.
honestly, people keep doing the same shit and expect different results, not gonna happen guys, either you suck it up and accept that marines/marauders without stim or medivacs gets destroyed by adepts or you try other unit comps as an opener
has anybody tried no marines? or like very few and just straight ghosts + marauders? then add marines once you're close to getting stim/medivacs?
on the other hand, warp prism is getting nerfed so just wait for it and if you know your opponent is staying on 1 or 2 gaz with more than 6 gates then just all in on defense start bunkers in your base or w/e, just like you would vs a blink all in, and ghosts are really fucking good in tvp now, colossus are no longer a threat really
The best results I get against 2 bases adept warpin, are with a rax gaz expand reactor into 2nd rax + ghost academy build: I have 2 ghosts and a bunch of marines when adept are warped in my base, and with decent micro, I just lose some scv. I'm always behind in term of eco after the first push but it s still better than just being dead
You need to skip reaper, and to ebay block too.
Then I blindly go for a Marines Marauders Ghost composition in mid game supported by liberators, no matter what the P does.
On September 25 2015 05:29 BiiG-Fr wrote: The best results I get against 2 bases adept warpin, are with a rax gaz expand reactor into 2nd rax + ghost academy build: I have 2 ghosts and a bunch of marines when adept are warped in my base, and with decent micro, I just lose some scv. I'm always behind in term of eco after the first push but it s still better than just being dead
You need to skip reaper, and to ebay block too.
Then I blindly go for a Marines Marauders Ghost composition in mid game supported by liberators, no matter what the P does.
And yes you re right about ghost!
hmmmmmmm I have seen now a couple comments about getting ghost out. I will have to try didnt think i would have enough time to get them out hmmm. been having trouble with the prism adepts too, and tried alot tanks mines marines. thought about ghost but thought to far, but will try no any timings or things i should know?
ghosts doesn't take any longer than tanks to get out, I know TT1 keeps saying that every terran should just go CC first into 3 rax with ghosts, and just camp and macro until liberators, I tend to agree with him since it has the best odds of holding the WP shenanigans and well Terran pretty good past that point
On September 25 2015 06:28 ROOTFayth wrote: ghosts doesn't take any longer than tanks to get out, I know TT1 keeps saying that every terran should just go CC first into 3 rax with ghosts, and just camp and macro until liberators, I tend to agree with him since it has the best odds of holding the WP shenanigans and well Terran pretty good past that point
CC first into Ghost ... hmmm. Lately I've been playing Ghost versus Toss, but merely out of frustration. 1rax Ghost with Cloak, save scans. If they don't respond correctly it's basically an auto-win. Micro intensive, but totally doable.
- Shade Canceling Threshold and Animation Tell: If the Shade lasts 6 seconds, you can only cancel it within the first 4 seconds (don't know the exact timings now). If you cancel the Shade within the threshold, the Shade animation changes slightly to indicate that it will not transfer.
As I've said earlier, this could be a good solution. It is worth testing.
On September 25 2015 02:21 TimeSpiral wrote:- Friendly Shading Only: The Shade cannot pass through hostile units. This seems like a no-brainer, right?
I don't agree. IMO the game shouldn't give you further incentive to stay clumped and use F2. The best part about the shade, is that it gives P the same capability to spread enemies thin and harass multiple points, that T have had with the medivacs since WoL.
On September 25 2015 02:21 TimeSpiral wrote:- DPS Dampening: maybe activating the Shade, and transfering to the Shade location could impose a brief delay before the Adept could continue attacking. The fact that it can move, attack, and maybe instantly teleport at huge ranges, without missing a shot just seems like a bit much. Eh?
Unfortunately, these are design suggestions, and I think the design ship may have sailed already : /
To me this sounds like a bad suggestion. Too many P units are already clunky or slow to respond, which negates micro. And lack of micro potential is exactly the reason why we end up with a-move units, after the balancing is done.
Edit: Just to make clear what I mean with the last point.
Just look at the Immortal or Voidray. Both of these units have a really long turning animation and low acceleration, which reduces the potential to increase their usefulness with kiting (micro). Now look at the Viking or the Banshee, which both have much faster acceleration and turning speed. You can do nice and for viewers potentially sweet looking micro with Vikings/Banshees. In comparison Immortals and Voidrays are just dull. I want Adepts to be exciting and micro intensive and not to be just smaller versions of the Immortal or Voidray.
Edit 2: If anything the shot animation should be looked at to make the unit more responsive. And after that is done, the suggestions made by Theo in the other thread should be tested.
I agree that the friendly unit thing might not be a great idea, but not for the reasons you mention. Shading in the middle of a fight, while losing no DPS, is not comparable to multi-front drops. And if you tried to reposition troops in a frontal attack against Protoss with medivacs you're going to get stomped (unless Toss is being defensive, and there are FFs everywhere, that's different).
How about this: You can shade through hostiles, but you cannot transfer if your shade is touching a hostile. Better?
I use an ebay block version with my scv building the first depot, it prevents the protoss doing a nexus first BO on 2 spots map, force a zealot and delay a lot the push, but you have to delay yourself the 2nd rax.
With good emp, and a bunch of SCV you can deal with the adepts and the prism, anyway you will lose SCVs and there is no way to counter attack with this build because of pylon overcharge and delayed medivac tek. So the better follow up is to go for a greedy 3rd cc and aim for a MMG composition supported by liberators.