back to the roots i'd say, plain good old rts action
Defensive warpins with incomplete nexus - Page 2
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bypLy
757 Posts
back to the roots i'd say, plain good old rts action | ||
Dumbledore
Sweden725 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10584 Posts
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On October 01 2015 01:24 CheddarToss wrote: No, this is not a bug. It makes perfect sense to everyone, who is not biased against Protoss. Well, unintended behavior is slightly different than bug. It very well could be intended behavior. I don't know. It could just as easily not be. Unintended behavior is extremely common in programming. If this is intentional behavior, it is the only instance in the game where an incomplete structure grants one of its abilities or attributes. It is for this reason that I think it is harder to believe that this is intentional than unintentional. Has nothing to do with bias against Protoss. Try this test: Build a pylon and then a gate way. While the gateway is building, select the pylon. It should display a normal (slow) warp-in field. Once the Gateway is finished, order the transformation into Warpgate. As quickly as possible (maybe set up a hotkey), switch back to the pylon. Does the pylon's powerfield change to fast warp-in while the Gateway is transforming, or does it switch over once the Warpgate is complete? I'd be interested to see what happens here. | ||
TelecoM
United States10584 Posts
On October 01 2015 02:24 TimeSpiral wrote: Well, unintended behavior is slightly different than bug. It very well could be intended behavior. I don't know. It could just as easily not be. Unintended behavior is extremely common in programming. If this is intentional behavior, it is the only instance in the game where an incomplete structure grants one of its abilities or attributes. It is for this reason that I think it is harder to believe that this is intentional than unintentional. Has nothing to do with bias against Protoss. Try this test: Build a pylon and then a gate way. While the gateway is building, select the pylon. It should display a normal (slow) warp-in field. Once the Gateway is finished, order the transformation into Warpgate. As quickly as possible (maybe set up a hotkey), switch back to the pylon. Does the pylon's powerfield change to fast warp-in while the Gateway is transforming, or does it switch over once the Warpgate is complete? I'd be interested to see what happens here. ....I can't believe the level people are going to try to understand this. Once the game is more balanced and even still now, Protoss requires the ability to be able to warp in near a building expansion in order to defend, it makes perfect sense and is common sense even. | ||
Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
Or you could just make a warp prism. ! | ||
TelecoM
United States10584 Posts
If you are building a nexus offensively in order to a warp in it is 100% NOT cost efficient and should never work. Only in low levels would this even work, even then it shouldn't work and still should just be disregarded. | ||
NonY
8716 Posts
On October 01 2015 05:08 GGzerG wrote: No, just no. If you are building a nexus offensively in order to a warp in it is 100% NOT cost efficient and should never work. Only in low levels would this even work, even then it shouldn't work and still should just be disregarded. There's nothing that is better than it in every way so it remains an option to keep in mind. Depending on how valuable timing is, it can be the most efficient choice since it can be the fastest. Everyone should be aware of how to abandon all their plans and put together the strongest attack they can as soon as possible, especially in LotV where there are a lot more interactions going on that may create an opportunity to win the game. I don't expect it to come up that often, since the warp prism is the mothership core of LotV -- every protoss should always have one -- but it can happen. Take a good trade, feel that you can all-in to capitalize and win, and the proxy nexus is the best way to maximize the power of your attack at that moment. And anyway, listen to yourself saying it should never work, as if no one ever won a game while down a few hundred minerals, or with minerals unspent in the bank. The game isn't often THAT precise, even in the GSL. | ||
ChristianS
United States3126 Posts
Seems fine, not overpowered, and I kinda think the option to spend 100 minerals and temporarily keep 300 minerals tied up in order to get your warp-ins faster is kinda cute. Like a couple times in WoL when players would proxy a Nexus to pre-charge up their void rays before attacking in. Maybe I'll change my mind when proxy nexus gateway rushes are killing me over and over, but for now I kinda like it. | ||
robopork
United States511 Posts
On September 30 2015 20:35 Genesis128 wrote: Isn't this abusable? With offensive warp-ins you could just throw down a nexus, get the fast warp-in speed on your pylon and cancel the nexus to get 300 minerals back. It would cost you 100 minerals to get the 2-second warp-in temporarily. I imagine you probably have the time for something between 2 and 4 warp-ins before you need to cancel the nexus. This could be done in a reactionary fashion as well... If the battle is going bad and you need quick reinforcements, throw down the nexus and you immediately get the fast warp-in option. If the battle is going good, then you can afford to wait and you save the 100 minerals that this trick would cost you. Sure, it will require you to have an extra 400 minerals to put out followed by how much the warp-in itself is going to cost, but the fact that this is a reactionary thing makes this viable in my opinion. I doubt it will see regular use. Either way, a nexus under construction shouldn't be subject to long, vulnerable warp ins. The idea was to make expansion easier, not harder, than it was in hots. | ||
FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
As for using it offensively. Since as protoss you stock up minerals anyway, the 100 minerals might be worth it for being 8 seconds faster. Spam out those sentries and have the Zealots come afterwards. I mean faking an expand was common practive as protoss haha. | ||
TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On October 01 2015 04:24 GGzerG wrote: ....I can't believe the level people are going to try to understand this. Once the game is more balanced and even still now, Protoss requires the ability to be able to warp in near a building expansion in order to defend, it makes perfect sense and is common sense even. What do you mean? It's the beta, man. It's not like it took a detailed take-down thought process to see that a building under construction is passing an attribute to another game element. It seems unintentional, but I made it clear that I don't know the intent of the behavior. Maybe it is intended. If so, it would be a unique game dynamic. As far as the game implications? *shrugs* It will certainly help Protoss secure expansions without having to dedicate supply or static defense. | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 02 2015 08:35 Aegwynn wrote: It doesn't make sense, protoss should be vulnerable when securing a new base as its the nature of it. Its like your hatchery in construction already starts spreading creep Well, you have to build the pylon there. And you can try to connect a new base with creep before you take it. And a Terran base is never really vulnerable when it is built within its other bases and then flown out. Pylon overcharge is a much bigger deal when it comes to securing an expansion as protoss, than the ability to warp in 3seconds faster than in HotS. But I also think it doesn't make sense just functionally that the building nexus provides a power itself. I don't like these tiny extra rules. Though I gotta say as a zerg we are abusing that shit since 2010 when we cancel a hatch and build an evolution chamber at the opponent's expansion because a hatchery for some weirdo reason also spreads 3x3 creep underneath it even when it is only constructing. | ||
Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
Pylon overcharge is already making ridiculous amount of damage, why uncompleted nexus should give fast warp-ins? Beside the balance, this little non-sensical designs makes look game ugly. Like warp prism picking units from other planets, picking/unloading sieged tanks, yellow acids falling from the sky... | ||
crazedrat
272 Posts
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parkufarku
882 Posts
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PPN
France248 Posts
On October 01 2015 02:24 TimeSpiral wrote: If this is intentional behavior, it is the only instance in the game where an incomplete structure grants one of its abilities or attributes. It is for this reason that I think it is harder to believe that this is intentional than unintentional. Has nothing to do with bias against Protoss. Come on, there are already a few tricks working around incomplete buildings. I am not even considering the basic which is that they already take up the space they will when completed which is pretty useful to block something (ebay block, walling etc.). Sure Terrans won't have much on this aspect, but to be fair they already have a lot of gimmicks with buildings (lifting, having units enter some of them and bunker salvaging mainly). I don't think it is an issue to have an extra rule. - all: incomplete buildings allow you to not to lose a game (the one biggest rule of Starcraft) - zerg: incomplete buildings free up the supply of the drones used, cancel trick gets you over the 200 supply rules - zerg: cancelling an hatchery provide a small amount of creep for short amount of time allowing proxying small buildings or tumors | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 02 2015 19:53 PPN wrote: Come on, there are already a few tricks working around incomplete buildings. I am not even considering the basic which is that they already take up the space they will when completed which is pretty useful to block something (ebay block, walling etc.). Sure Terrans won't have much on this aspect, but to be fair they already have a lot of gimmicks with buildings (lifting, having units enter some of them and bunker salvaging mainly). I don't think it is an issue to have an extra rule. - all: incomplete buildings allow you to not to lose a game (the one biggest rule of Starcraft) Because it is already a building. It has to count as something, and the most logical rule is that it counts as structure. It's also nothing special to a single building, it's that structures count as structures in any phase of their existance. - zerg: incomplete buildings free up the supply of the drones used, cancel trick gets you over the 200 supply rules That's the very normal process of a transformation/production. A mothership costs 6more supply the moment you start the morph. A marine costs one supply the moment you give the production order. The same obviously goes for units morphing into something that costs less supply. Or would be if there was a unit Again, this is just the consistent ruling with everything else, just that the drone morph into a structure is the only morph in the game into something that costs less supply. - zerg: cancelling an hatchery provide a small amount of creep for short amount of time allowing proxying small buildings or tumors Yup, that is actually a special rule. I think the problem here was that they either have to make a special rule that hatcheries don't lose health of creep, or that they already sit on creep somehow. This is just to point out that the first two are not special rules! I do agree that there is no reason not to have special rules if they benefit the game somehow. I'm not sure that this is the case here, but whatever, it's somewhat small of a thing I guess. There's probably going to be some abuse around it, and we will have to learn and live with it instead of just having a solid solution to protoss defense problems, the way it has always been in this game. Personally I mainly found it weird to see fast warp-ins at an incomplete nexus, but one gets used to it. I usually read patch changes carefully and when I get into a game and expect things to work in a certain way but then they don't because the patch notes were incomplete and the behavior was not logically predictable from what was said I find it a bit distrubing at first. | ||
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