Please note, this is in no ways a balance complaint.
I think Terran got the short end of the stick design wise.
I feel like the only cool things Terran gets in LotV are the Reaper grenades, which seem to only be a factor in the early game and Siege Tank drops, which go against the nature of what a Tank is supposed to be.
The Liberator and Cyclone are both very stale units in my opinion, especially if you compare them to Disruptors, Adepts and Ravagers. The Liberator has no interesting micro capabilities and fills the role which Tanks should have filled since WoL. The Cyclone also is boring to use and in a very weird place design wise where it's either very ineffective in low numbers, but gets almost broken once you hit a critical mass. Also both units seem to be frustrating for the other races to play against because there is little counterplay.
I feel like both Zerg and Protoss get really cool units/changes that allow for very interesting and diverse plays while Terran is more or less the same.
Well, I think it is partially true. Terran is still predominantly Bio with Liberators at the moment, I think Mech took a hit in this last patch as honestly the economy change helped Zerg a lot in transitional periods, so the Swarm Host is good again now especially vs Mech.
I personally think that the Cyclone is a poorly designed unit and could probably have a makeover / replaced with a different unit that would give Terran it's Flair back.
The liberator is cool and will change at least PvT forever (which is good). Now, the Cyclone seems to be a little underwhelming at the moment. Since the unit is changing all the time, its hard to judge its actual potential and roles right now. No one knows how this unit will fare.
I think the cyclone is a cool unit actually, its kind of expensive but allows you to open in a more flexible way now, specially with the buffed AA, is good as mobile attack unit allows the normally defensive mech to be aggressive and out in the map, specially early-mid game and the AA makes a good unit for a mech army.
Now I'm not sure how strong the cyclone is, since no top player uses them, but they allow for cool mech play IMO.
in HotS and in LotV all we got were units that replace roles we already had in other units that got nerft in order to make Bio work in TvT. So it is quite natural to be underwhelmed since we had that in a better version to begin with.
I would have prefered if they reverted all the nerfs on our units since WoL was released. Yes even the Battle cruiser I think its fine now. Viking Hellion Siege Tank Thor. I like the design of those more then what they got replaced with.
The Liberator isn't underwhelming (even though in need of further balance tweaks without a doubt) I think it's cool, and it's nice to see how it's doing in PvT, not allowing the deathball to just march over the map and pick a fight.
The Cyclone is probably the stupidest unit they have added to the game, surpassing even the Warhound, it's like they say around and were like, "Hey, Terran needs to micro alot, how about we give them a unit that does tons and tons of damage with pretty much zero micro or skill cap?" and thus the Cyclone was created.
Ghost changes are nice, snipe is way good now, like murderously good, and after watching Byul vs. Innovation and seeing how many damn fungals you need to make anything happen I'm REALLY hoping the Infestor can get the ghost treatment.
Siege tank pick up thing is just atrocious and lazy.
Cyclones are underwhelming and I think they will always be underwhelming. The design is just too all around. With the current design it will either be underwhelming or totally broken.
The only problem I have with the liberator is that it seems to have replaced the thor and the siege tank. I can still see uses for the siege tank in TvT, but I don't see why anyone should ever build thors again.
I think I would have rather they followed through with some sort of additional Barracks unit. The Reaper is in a great place, imo, and this Snipe patch has certainly helped the Ghost.
The cyclone ... lame, at the moment. The "lock-on" ability is a terrible activated/auto-cast ability.
The Liberator is great. I really like it.
But, design-wise, LotV is complete. Now we're just working on fine-tuning the balance.
Balance aside, Liberators are really fun to use and have Terran feel to it (like siege tanks, except they are useful) since you control the space and they gave what Terran needed I think.
On the other side, Cyclones are complete garbage, they suck balance wise, they don't fill any role and they are just boring as hell. Imo remove them and put some kind of mech repair unit, that's cheap and mobile.
I switched to zerg, because of my hate for the cyclone.
To be fair though terran has always been the most developed race. Not that easy to add a meaningful unit to a race that has pretty much everything and it's all useful.
On October 05 2015 05:08 Aocowns wrote: feels like all the races have a couple too many units, really. I mean terran has what, 17 or 18 units now?
That was bound to happen since they decided there would be three expansions and that those expansions would be marketed as multiplayer expansions. That was not so obvious even for Blizz, after HotS was released I remember a game designer said in an interview they were considering not adding units in LotV, or only doing so after taking others away.
I think the liberator is really strong. I like to bitch about it because I think it was unnecessary and I don't like playing against the no-go-circles, but strategywise the unit is awesome for Terran. It's so easily combineable and solves so many problems at once that I think it opens up the tech for terrans a lot. The Cyclone is and has always been bullshit. The last time I tried it against Protoss I got countered by basically anything, because the unit is not very costefficient. The last time I played against it as zerg I just made roaches, with the same result. The unit doesn't excel at anything, nor is it easily massable. It's just an expensive mech-marine. The unit plainly suffers from having too much utility and not enough ooomph now that it isn't broken anymore. And the infinite kiting mechanic isn't fun.
That being said I don't think Terran "gets the short end of the stick". I think the lurker isn't a very fun unit either at the moment, though definitely powerful in the right situations. The disruptor looks cool - until everyone will stop playing it as an army unit outside of PvP because they realize they never ever get a hit off with it against bio or zerg compositions. The ravager is very cool, yet, without the range upgrade a bit mediocre. Especially vs Terran, but in general I feel like a more fleshed out/balanced metagame will reveal how costinefficiently it is for 100gas, though I think it will stay a stable of ZvP. We saw a similar thing with hydralisks in the HotS beta with the new speed upgrade. It was fun for a while until the meta got tight and hydras became rare outside of PvZ and even there they wouldn't work that well without the 10%dps buff of HotS. Adept is also just strong and I guess you can do a lot of multitasking with it with dedicated builds. I think the effect isn't lasting. Eventually either the meta or the balance will make it so that you can just shut down adept harass. And then what's left is a unit with good stats but no micro.
On October 05 2015 05:25 Big J wrote: I think the liberator is really good. I like to bitch about it because I think it was unnecessary and I don't like playing against the no-go-circles, but strategywise the unit is awesome for Terran. It's so easily combineable and solves so many problems at once that I think it opens up the tech for terrans a lot. The Cyclone is and has always been bullshit. The last time I tried it against Protoss I got countered by basically anything, because the unit is not very costefficient. The last time I played against it as zerg I just made roaches, with the same result. The unit doesn't excel at anything, nor is it easily massable. It's just an expensive mech-marine. The unit plainly suffers from having too much utility and not enough ooomph now that it isn't broken anymore. And the infinite kiting mechanic isn't fun.
I think the unit design is just bad, the infinite kiting idea is boring. I wish they would try some redesign in that last phase, though this is unlikely.
On October 05 2015 04:48 Beastyqt wrote: Balance aside, Liberators are really fun to use and have Terran feel to it (like siege tanks, except they are useful) since you control the space and they gave what Terran needed I think.
On the other side, Cyclones are complete garbage, they suck balance wise, they don't fill any role and they are just boring as hell. Imo remove them and put some kind of mech repair unit, that's cheap and mobile.
A unit that repairs mech ... Ha. I have never thought of that.
On October 05 2015 05:25 Big J wrote: I think the liberator is really good. I like to bitch about it because I think it was unnecessary and I don't like playing against the no-go-circles, but strategywise the unit is awesome for Terran. It's so easily combineable and solves so many problems at once that I think it opens up the tech for terrans a lot. The Cyclone is and has always been bullshit. The last time I tried it against Protoss I got countered by basically anything, because the unit is not very costefficient. The last time I played against it as zerg I just made roaches, with the same result. The unit doesn't excel at anything, nor is it easily massable. It's just an expensive mech-marine. The unit plainly suffers from having too much utility and not enough ooomph now that it isn't broken anymore. And the infinite kiting mechanic isn't fun.
I think the unit design is just bad, the infinite kiting idea is boring. I wish they would try some redesign in that last phase, though this is unlikely.
I think they at least consider to give it a more dedicated role so that it makes more sense strategywise. For example I would like to see the gas-cost tuned down to 100 or 75 and the unit more balanced around being some form of assault tank. A Mech-Roach if you want. Something that allows Terran players to go out and about in the midgame with Mech. Not a huge redesign, but cut some stats here and there (kite range by a lot, more cooldown on the lock-on), add a tiny bit more speed, maybe redesign the upgrade a bit (I'd just tune it down a bit with the way I would make it cheaper).
What feels wrong is that they're doing a lot of things, 'specially with mech, just because they're unwilling to : - Make tanks stronger stat-wise - Have a mainstream AA / support mech unit (Goliath says hi)
On October 05 2015 07:29 Lyyna wrote: What feels wrong is that they're doing a lot of things, 'specially with mech, just because they're unwilling to : - Make tanks stronger stat-wise - Have a mainstream AA / support mech unit (Goliath says hi)
On October 05 2015 04:48 Beastyqt wrote: Balance aside, Liberators are really fun to use and have Terran feel to it (like siege tanks, except they are useful) since you control the space and they gave what Terran needed I think.
On the other side, Cyclones are complete garbage, they suck balance wise, they don't fill any role and they are just boring as hell. Imo remove them and put some kind of mech repair unit, that's cheap and mobile.
A unit that repairs mech ... Ha. I have never thought of that.
On October 05 2015 04:48 Beastyqt wrote: Balance aside, Liberators are really fun to use and have Terran feel to it (like siege tanks, except they are useful) since you control the space and they gave what Terran needed I think.
On the other side, Cyclones are complete garbage, they suck balance wise, they don't fill any role and they are just boring as hell. Imo remove them and put some kind of mech repair unit, that's cheap and mobile.
A unit that repairs mech ... Ha. I have never thought of that.
An... SCV????
Nono... It needs to not cost supply and can be called down anywhere on the map... and it should also be able to mine minerals in case your SCVs get harassed...
On October 05 2015 07:29 Lyyna wrote: What feels wrong is that they're doing a lot of things, 'specially with mech, just because they're unwilling to : - Make tanks stronger stat-wise - Have a mainstream AA / support mech unit (Goliath says hi)
AA: Vikings and liberators?
Thors, Vikings, Liberators, Cyclones, Widow mines... all these units have a form of AA role, with huge downsides. All because Blizzard doesn't want to remake one generic AA ground unit, they instead first tried to "divide" the different components on the terran AA towards different units (Thors & Vikings), & now they're trying to create new ones to correct these problems through "original abilities / attacks.... while also trying to make up for the fact the tank sucks (the liberator is a better space-control unit than the tank, eh).
On October 05 2015 07:29 Lyyna wrote: What feels wrong is that they're doing a lot of things, 'specially with mech, just because they're unwilling to : - Make tanks stronger stat-wise - Have a mainstream AA / support mech unit (Goliath says hi)
AA: Vikings and liberators?
Thors, Vikings, Liberators, Cyclones, Widow mines... all these units have a form of AA role, with huge downsides. All because Blizzard doesn't want to remake one generic AA ground unit, they instead first tried to "divide" the different components on the terran AA towards different units (Thors & Vikings), & now they're trying to create new ones to correct these problems through "original abilities / attacks.... while also trying to make up for the fact the tank sucks (the liberator is a better space-control unit than the tank, eh).
I don't know what you expect a "generic AA ground unit" of Mech to be, but I don't believe blizzard should or will design any unit that counters light & armored, fast & strong air units in high & low amounts alike.
I don't get why they continued with the Cyclone concept, it was always complete garbage, even in visuals. The Herc had some potential, too bad they skipped it due to some overlapping with the Hellbat instead of experimenting with it some more.
I tend to agree. Both units have a niche role and aren't particularly exciting to play.
The Liberator can be a very good zoning tool in games against Gateway heavy Protoss compositions (with Bio). And it can be massed to counter Mutalisk heavy plays against Zerg. In TvT aside from harassment, there is not much use in choosing Liberators over a standard 3/4M build or mech.
I can't say much for the Cyclone because I never build it.
Two changes would make sense to me.
Liberator I think the Liberator should be a flying defense platform. This would fit very well with Terran gameplay, imo.
To implement this, I would remove the Liberator's auto-attack and give it two transformations: one for air-to-air defense and one for air-to-ground defense. The air-to-air defense would be similar (maybe a little bit stronger) than the current auto-attack. Both transformations should make the Liberator immobile so that basic counterplays are possible (evasion and/or focus).
Cyclone I think it could use some kind of missile barrage ability which provides a large damage spike against a single target. In this scenario you would build Cyclones specifically to counter high value targets like Colossi, Brood Lords or Battle Cruisers
On October 05 2015 07:29 Lyyna wrote: What feels wrong is that they're doing a lot of things, 'specially with mech, just because they're unwilling to : - Make tanks stronger stat-wise - Have a mainstream AA / support mech unit (Goliath says hi)
AA: Vikings and liberators?
Thors, Vikings, Liberators, Cyclones, Widow mines... all these units have a form of AA role, with huge downsides. All because Blizzard doesn't want to remake one generic AA ground unit, they instead first tried to "divide" the different components on the terran AA towards different units (Thors & Vikings), & now they're trying to create new ones to correct these problems through "original abilities / attacks.... while also trying to make up for the fact the tank sucks (the liberator is a better space-control unit than the tank, eh).
Goliaths would be TOO reliable in SC2, in BW the bad pathing made goliaths not so strong, much like goons.
In SC2 goliaths would be warhounds with better AA.
On October 05 2015 07:29 Lyyna wrote: What feels wrong is that they're doing a lot of things, 'specially with mech, just because they're unwilling to : - Make tanks stronger stat-wise - Have a mainstream AA / support mech unit (Goliath says hi)
AA: Vikings and liberators?
Vikings and Liberators are Sky Terran comp(Starport), while Goliath(as well as Thor and Cyclone) is Mech, since it can be built in Factory
On October 05 2015 04:48 Beastyqt wrote: Balance aside, Liberators are really fun to use and have Terran feel to it (like siege tanks, except they are useful) since you control the space and they gave what Terran needed I think.
On the other side, Cyclones are complete garbage, they suck balance wise, they don't fill any role and they are just boring as hell. Imo remove them and put some kind of mech repair unit, that's cheap and mobile.
A unit that repairs mech ... Ha. I have never thought of that.
An... SCV????
Nono... It needs to not cost supply and can be called down anywhere on the map... and it should also be able to mine minerals in case your SCVs get harassed...
On October 05 2015 04:48 Beastyqt wrote: Balance aside, Liberators are really fun to use and have Terran feel to it (like siege tanks, except they are useful) since you control the space and they gave what Terran needed I think.
On the other side, Cyclones are complete garbage, they suck balance wise, they don't fill any role and they are just boring as hell. Imo remove them and put some kind of mech repair unit, that's cheap and mobile.
A unit that repairs mech ... Ha. I have never thought of that.
An... SCV????
Hehehe. Oh, you guys! I'm pretty sure Beastyqt--the SC2 progamer I was responding to--is fully aware that SCVs and Mules can repair mechanical units. His, and my, mistake was assuming that you guys would at least give us that much. Lol.
I think it's cool, and it's nice to see how it's doing in PvT, not allowing the deathball to just march over the map and pick a fight.
What "deathball" are people using in PvT?
I'd like to know, for uhh.. research
AA: Vikings and liberators?
Yes, this is a fair point. Vikings are pretty good long range anti-armor AA units. Liberators are very strong against light air and that's only one of their 2 major roles
Liberator is pretty good and fits the style of Terran imo. Numbers need to be adjusted, and maybe range. Ideally, they should work nicely with tanks, and make tanks stronger by making it harder to counter the tanks.
Cyclone... I find that unit very underwhelming. Have not found a place for it without overlapping other units...
With the current stats I see Cyclones being used as AA and as a poking tool. They're not cost-efficient straight up, but they're potentially very efficient when kiting, or when they can retreat to a prepared position (mines/liberators/tanks). I don't think the design is that bad, TBH.
I haven't played beta, but from the streams I have watched they look like " frustrating " units , I still think Terran is still suffering from Bio being so good at almost all stages of the game since release.
The new units seem to added just to say "they got 2 new units" rather than any design flow or synergy
I find the cyclone to be boring as well. It seems like a unit that is designed to be a factory built marine. And the lock-on ability is just an easier way to do the marine kiting shot.
On October 05 2015 07:29 Lyyna wrote: What feels wrong is that they're doing a lot of things, 'specially with mech, just because they're unwilling to : - Make tanks stronger stat-wise - Have a mainstream AA / support mech unit (Goliath says hi)
AA: Vikings and liberators?
The interplay between AA that flies vs air units is not as interesting as the one between ground-based AA vs air units. Flying AA can just chase down air units. Against ground based AA, air units can use impassable terrain to navigate around more cost-efficient ground-based AA.
On October 06 2015 04:50 andrewlt wrote: I find the cyclone to be boring as well. It seems like a unit that is designed to be a factory built marine. And the lock-on ability is just an easier way to do the marine kiting shot.
On October 05 2015 07:29 Lyyna wrote: What feels wrong is that they're doing a lot of things, 'specially with mech, just because they're unwilling to : - Make tanks stronger stat-wise - Have a mainstream AA / support mech unit (Goliath says hi)
AA: Vikings and liberators?
The interplay between AA that flies vs air units is not as interesting as the one between ground-based AA vs air units. Flying AA can just chase down air units. Against ground based AA, air units can use impassable terrain to navigate around more cost-efficient ground-based AA.
Thors are fairly effective, just immobile and not good against new carriers. With Thor, WM, Viking and Liberator, it's hard to add a dedicated ground mech unit that's even better than these units against air.
Cyclone has an air attack; it was that unit but they decided to keep powerful ground attack and nerf AA.
Terran has arguably the best ground-based AA unit in the game, it's the Marine - just doesn't fit into Mech play.
On October 05 2015 03:45 royalroadweed wrote: Cyclones are underwhelming and I think they will always be underwhelming. The design is just too all around. With the current design it will either be underwhelming or totally broken.
The only problem I have with the liberator is that it seems to have replaced the thor and the siege tank. I can still see uses for the siege tank in TvT, but I don't see why anyone should ever build thors again.
Liberators did not replace tanks, thank god. There are three important points which prevent that from happening. Liberators are weak vs vikings, you can allways secure your tank line with turrets and you are afraid of harass so you want tanks and vikings first.
Even if you play bio + liberator, tank + viking is still better. You can maybe win with bio+liberator if you do a timing attack or if you have overwhelming numbers but that has nothing to do with the standard game.
In a standard tvt you try to get vikings, tanks, 2-3 liberators, 2-3 medivacs and support units. Your tactic is positional you combat tank lines and reposition them non stop with your medivacs (it requires a lot of attention, nothing for newbies). When both sides start to reposition it looks literally like blitz chess (i was against siege tank drop until ive seen some high level tvt games, it looks amazing and people will realize that as soon as they get used to it).
I believe mass liberators will only work if you already have won the air battle. But its the same in hots. If you win the air battle you usually win also the ground battle because of vision and/or drops.
On October 06 2015 04:50 andrewlt wrote: I find the cyclone to be boring as well. It seems like a unit that is designed to be a factory built marine. And the lock-on ability is just an easier way to do the marine kiting shot.
On October 05 2015 07:29 Lyyna wrote: What feels wrong is that they're doing a lot of things, 'specially with mech, just because they're unwilling to : - Make tanks stronger stat-wise - Have a mainstream AA / support mech unit (Goliath says hi)
AA: Vikings and liberators?
The interplay between AA that flies vs air units is not as interesting as the one between ground-based AA vs air units. Flying AA can just chase down air units. Against ground based AA, air units can use impassable terrain to navigate around more cost-efficient ground-based AA.
Hey, if it was within my possibilities half of the air units in the game would be cut for the exact reasoning how Air to Air is boring but required through the design of other air units. But matter of fact is that they are there and can be used, so I find the arguement that Mech needs a Goliath just wrong. Maybe it could make for better gameplay as you say, but I again referring to design, I cannot think of a scenario in which a Goliath should be allowed to counter for example the Battlecruiser, the Carrier or the Broodlord. The one and nearly only purpose of these air units is to break playstyles that only rely on rather slow groundcompositions. And SC2 does not have the economy system to allow for other plays than very engagment based counters. Just take the example of the Broodlord: In which world could a Goliath ever be a better counter to it than the viking against which the broodlord cannot retaliate and whose movement and attack AI the Broodlord does not mess up? It can't. As a matter of fact the only way to not overpower that Goliath is to make it insufficient against e.g. the Broodlord, but I think also similar units like the Carrier with it's interceptor, long-leash range system, or the battlecruiser with it's heavier focus on antiground damage. And again, just so that I don't get stupid comments that it worked in BW, consider how Broodwar XvMech played out economywise yet how everything in starcraft2 always works out through unit relations.
On October 06 2015 04:05 Glorfindel! wrote: I have played atleast 100 games in the beta now as Terran. I still have no idea how Cyklones work. They just seem so random for me :D
If they attack move, they never stack their spell on the same target. They always split the auto-cast fire. I think that if you had 10 cyclones and were against 8 stalkers, only 8 would autocast and none on the same stalker.
Their spell damage is actually devastating if you manually cast the focus fire on the same target.
On October 06 2015 04:05 Glorfindel! wrote: I have played atleast 100 games in the beta now as Terran. I still have no idea how Cyklones work. They just seem so random for me :D
If they attack move, they never stack their spell on the same target. They always split the auto-cast fire. I think that if you had 10 cyclones and were against 8 stalkers, only 8 would autocast and none on the same stalker.
Their spell damage is actually devastating if you manually cast the focus fire on the same target.
I find the irony being that Blizzard says early in the beta they want things that are hard to execute but clear to the viewer what is going on.
When watching this unit in use it isn't clear if it is being used well or not. Then compound that with the fact that for a new player it isn't very understandable. I've played a lot of SC2.. and this beta, and I really have no idea what the hell you do with this unit.
On October 06 2015 04:05 Glorfindel! wrote: I have played atleast 100 games in the beta now as Terran. I still have no idea how Cyklones work. They just seem so random for me :D
If they attack move, they never stack their spell on the same target. They always split the auto-cast fire. I think that if you had 10 cyclones and were against 8 stalkers, only 8 would autocast and none on the same stalker.
Their spell damage is actually devastating if you manually cast the focus fire on the same target.
I find the irony being that Blizzard says early in the beta they want things that are hard to execute but clear to the viewer what is going on.
When watching this unit in use it isn't clear if it is being used well or not. Then compound that with the fact that for a new player it isn't very understandable. I've played a lot of SC2.. and this beta, and I really have no idea what the hell you do with this unit.
My proposed fix:
Get rid of the spell, adjust their base damage. Make them shoot on the move like the Phoenix. Each additional attack on the same target increases their range by ~2 up to their current max. Visually show the laser range finder thing locking on and getting bigger.
On October 06 2015 04:05 Glorfindel! wrote: I have played atleast 100 games in the beta now as Terran. I still have no idea how Cyklones work. They just seem so random for me :D
If they attack move, they never stack their spell on the same target. They always split the auto-cast fire. I think that if you had 10 cyclones and were against 8 stalkers, only 8 would autocast and none on the same stalker.
Their spell damage is actually devastating if you manually cast the focus fire on the same target.
I find the irony being that Blizzard says early in the beta they want things that are hard to execute but clear to the viewer what is going on.
When watching this unit in use it isn't clear if it is being used well or not. Then compound that with the fact that for a new player it isn't very understandable. I've played a lot of SC2.. and this beta, and I really have no idea what the hell you do with this unit.
My proposed fix:
Get rid of the spell, adjust their base damage. Make them shoot on the move like the Phoenix. Each additional attack on the same target increases their range by ~2 up to their current max. Visually show the laser range finder thing locking on and getting bigger.
I agree I think that if I understand correctly the point of the unit is that it can lock onto a target and kite it back and forth with this additional range. But it isn't clear to play against what this unit is doing, it isn't clear to use as to what the unit is doing, and it isn't clear to watch what this unit is doing.
This visual you are suggesting and type of activity to me makes sense, and would solve what is going on above. I still don't understand where the unit actually fits into the game or why it was needed. Blizzard's goal should be either create really cool units and let the players figure out their use, create units that help solve an issue with the race, and then yet we get this unit and I don't think it falls into either of those categories.
But yeah overall I think the Zerg units are cool. I think protoss is OK, and terran are pretty meh. Liberator isn't bad but I think it is a unit that gets figured out pretty quickly and then losses a lot of it's overall use. Its value becomes less and less against as your opponent gets better.
How are terrans feelings regarding this topic? For me personally I am getting a little sick of everything revolving so much around bio in every matchup. Are there any mech styles that are viable?
I think terran units added in expansions added the least interesting of all three races. Zerg units completely changed how we played the game. Vipers made Roach hydra not a death trap. Lurker gave us a solid bridge to hive. Ravagers gave us good early game aggression units. Protoss units from hots made stargate a reliable tech choice. Adepts gave some early game tanky unit with harassment potential. Terran units never really changed how they played. Mines simply replaced tanks, but bio played pretty much the same. Liberators are just faster thors. Cyclones just have long range and mean you don't need a star port to have an AA option as mech. Terran has always had the least interesting unit additions IMO. And now the units are starting to step on each other Thor/liberator Cyclone/viking even the old herc/hellbat The unit that made things on the battle field always sounded interesting too bad they scrapped it.
On October 27 2015 06:24 Gullis wrote: How are terrans feelings regarding this topic? For me personally I am getting a little sick of everything revolving so much around bio in every matchup. Are there any mech styles that are viable?
Yea, I don't like playing as Terran anymore, so I simply just changed races. I was playing as Zerg, and doing really well, I like it alot. But, currently I love Protoss since Collosi are no longer essential. I play alot of GW+Disruptor into GW Templar.
What's nice is that then late game you can bounce back and forth between Robo and Templar Tech simply because Disruptors aren't that expensive
On October 27 2015 06:32 DinoMight wrote: As a Protoss:
SHUT UP.
Talk about underwhelming... Adept and Disruptor. Along with Warpgate, Immortal, and Colossus nerfs. Happy Protoss expansion!
Sorry! But currently for terrans it seems to be bio+mine+liberator vs p and z . And tvt just suck right now.Not talking balance, it just straigth upp feels like more of hots for terran. I have seen your thread about playing as protoss, so I can realize things are not peachy for protoss. But you have to agree that the changes to protoss playstyle are bigger than to terrans no? Even if you answer NO, I would still like some more variation for terran.
On October 27 2015 06:24 Gullis wrote: How are terrans feelings regarding this topic? For me personally I am getting a little sick of everything revolving so much around bio in every matchup. Are there any mech styles that are viable?
Yea, I don't like playing as Terran anymore, so I simply just changed races. I was playing as Zerg, and doing really well, I like it alot. But, currently I love Protoss since Collosi are no longer essential. I play alot of GW+Disruptor into GW Templar.
What's nice is that then late game you can bounce back and forth between Robo and Templar Tech simply because Disruptors aren't that expensive
I have been playing zerg so yeah I am leaning towards switching aswell. But I wanna try out mech for real. But other than some weird mass hellion allins vs protoss I get nothing to work.
Well, we got variation, but it's nothing to be excited for.
There's nothing really exciting about what the new units do for us. They do the same thing the old units used to do, but now it requires more clicks because Protoss was too easy.
So from a satisfaction viewpoint, I am not very satisfied as a P lol. Because the race is just harder but with nothing really new.
Liberators make meching vs protoss seem more viable to me. While I would've preferred tanks get buffed properly I can't say I dislike the liberator.
The cyclone needs work but I still like it, anyone who says its ez pz no micro either hasn't used it or is already pretty awesome. As someone who is high plat I find them quite tricky to use, you need to maintain lock-on distance while being outside of range, without the range upgrade that's quite tricky. I'm fairly confident they can balance it to work out nice, I don't want to see mass cyclone be a thing, but I'd love to have something to poke and goad armies which can retreat home or to a siege / liberator line although out of all possibilities.
I hope it ends up being useful vs Broods and Carriers from the ground. I don't really like how you need air units vs them as a meching player, its not the end of the world but I hate how badly things can snowball for mech if you miss the air transition or have too few vikings but a very strong ground army.
Other changes are much of a muchness, I wish they'd continued with the econ changes but as someone who wanted a more viable mech in TvP I am feeling fairly confident that while it might not end up as the high level meta, it will still be viable.
On October 27 2015 06:32 DinoMight wrote: As a Protoss:
SHUT UP.
Talk about underwhelming... Adept and Disruptor. Along with Warpgate, Immortal, and Colossus nerfs. Happy Protoss expansion!
Sorry! But currently for terrans it seems to be bio+mine+liberator vs p and z . And tvt just suck right now.Not talking balance, it just straigth upp feels like more of hots for terran. I have seen your thread about playing as protoss, so I can realize things are not peachy for protoss. But you have to agree that the changes to protoss playstyle are bigger than to terrans no? Even if you answer NO, I would still like some more variation for terran.
On October 27 2015 06:24 Gullis wrote: How are terrans feelings regarding this topic? For me personally I am getting a little sick of everything revolving so much around bio in every matchup. Are there any mech styles that are viable?
Yea, I don't like playing as Terran anymore, so I simply just changed races. I was playing as Zerg, and doing really well, I like it alot. But, currently I love Protoss since Collosi are no longer essential. I play alot of GW+Disruptor into GW Templar.
What's nice is that then late game you can bounce back and forth between Robo and Templar Tech simply because Disruptors aren't that expensive
I have been playing zerg so yeah I am leaning towards switching aswell. But I wanna try out mech for real. But other than some weird mass hellion allins vs protoss I get nothing to work.
Lol those Mass Hellion All Ins are crazy good. But if they go Air your screwed . Hilariously I stole a win by massing WM and the Protoss just A clicked his army over them and ragequit
People underestimate how good a crap ton of Hellions are vs Stalkers
Terran has had a "weakness" when it comes to adding more units to the race from the start: Terran was already complete from the start.
What does it mean? Complete in this case means it has no apparent weakness when it comes to unit composition, meaning there are no unit composition terrant doesnt have a strong answer for. Terrans difficulty here is the tech switch to get there.
This means however, that more or less any new unit added, will overshadow an already existing unit in play.
They already had that problem when adding new units for HotS. Warhound was withdrawed, mine is a combination of thor (air splash) and tank (ground splash). Hellbat is really just a different Hellion.
They dont want to make current units obsolete, hence the very difficult job of finding new units.
I wouldn't say I'm underwhelmed by the new units as much as I am overwhelmed by the fast pace.
I usually revert to going bio every game and sprinkling in new units as I can. Looking forward to release and being able to play around with custom games and figuring out new builds going forward.
I am also underwhelmed because Mech as a whole is a cluster fuck. The tank still sucks, the Cyclone's design is atrocious, there is still no reliable anti-air from the factory, and Battlecruisers are still useless. There are too many units that fill extremely niche roles instead of having fewer units that are actually useful. I've been playing almost exclusively bio for so long I just want a change of pace.
At the beginning of my beta experience I didn't understand liberator's utility; really i didn't like it, but now with about 150 games behind me, I use it in every match up ! 2 of those bad guys in a zerg mineral line is just a monkey in a banana warehouse ! furthermore I like the last patch with anti-ground mode out of upgrade. We can use liberator for harass even more quickly. For the cyclone, it is an another story. I forget all the time this new terran unit. I tried it a couple of time vsT, but the "lock on" is so hard to control, and for minimal results. I am as many people on this topic, I don't find a way to use it (AA forces are OK with vikings thor and Libe). Even in early TvP against a bunch of stalkers it is not miraculous. I wonder how this unit could evolute in a near future, but I think Blizz will not change it.
At the begging og my beta experience i have got a lot of problem with new zerg rush. One base 2 base ravenger rouche, ling bane, 2 base muta and in mid late game with ultras. There is no proper current answer on ultras thay melt bio. And here is and answer changes in thor. Why we cant have same fine answer vs ultras by thor? why thor cant get any proper changes with his statiscic? For example +15 vs mass bio units or smth like that.
Terran has been the most well rounded and complete race since WoL. You didn't get such great stuff this time because there were no jokes to fill in the unit composition. Liberators are still cool.
On October 05 2015 05:25 Big J wrote:The disruptor looks cool - until everyone will stop playing it as an army unit outside of PvP because they realize they never ever get a hit off with it against bio or zerg compositions.
bold statement let's see if the disruptor is altered in any way once people "stop playing it as an army unit" as you predict.
On October 28 2015 01:09 ZackAttack wrote: Terran has been the most well rounded and complete race since WoL. You didn't get such great stuff this time because there were no jokes to fill in the unit composition. Liberators are still cool.
This, there are no major gaps in the Terran army for awhile now, it was almost like they gave them the Liberator/Cyclone so they wouldn't feel totally left out.
Too bad the Cyclone is the worst unit in the damn game design wise.
Too bad the Cyclone is the worst unit in the damn game design wise.
Thor, Colossus, Battlecruiser, Void Ray, Corruptor are all worse than the Cyclone, design-wise.
Mechanically, the Cyclone is just a ground-phoenix with a cooldown on its fire on the move ability. I have no idea why you'd think it's so much worse (unless you think the Phoenix is equally terrible).
On October 28 2015 00:46 Garmer wrote: i cna't still understand why they cannot buff the tank
Been asking this myself since the end of WoL. Pretty sure it's a lost cause by now
On the other hand they buffed the medivac with the free boost, a buff the unit didn't need balance-wise so I guess they did it to add "exciting gameplay". Funny enough, this random buff created problems which had to be band-aided with the MSC, probably the unit every non-protoss hates the most.
On October 27 2015 23:38 coolman123123 wrote: I am also underwhelmed because Mech as a whole is a cluster fuck. The tank still sucks, the Cyclone's design is atrocious, there is still no reliable anti-air from the factory, and Battlecruisers are still useless. There are too many units that fill extremely niche roles instead of having fewer units that are actually useful. I've been playing almost exclusively bio for so long I just want a change of pace.
Some Terrans are obsessed with mech.... Why? Mech is extremely boring to play and watch. 60 min slugfest? No thanks. Mech is all about defending and then the deathpush. Where is the fun in that? Planting some tanks behind a PF? Besides mech is fully viable in tvz
On October 28 2015 03:47 Apoteosis wrote: Some Terrans are obsessed with mech.... Why? Mech is extremely boring to play and watch. 60 min slugfest? No thanks. Mech is all about defending and then the deathpush. Where is the fun in that? Planting some tanks behind a PF? Besides mech is fully viable in tvz
Couldn't agree with this more, mech sucks to both watch and play against in probably 75% of the games I see. The ones where it's lots of Hellion/Banshee play is pretty cool but turtle mech? No sir, we just killed the Protoss deathball I am in no mood to see Terran have one.
Especially on ladder, when I see turtle cancer Mech I just sigh, I don't always have time to play a 40 + minute to the death/to the last resource match.
Bio is infinitely superior to both watch and play against.
On October 28 2015 03:47 Apoteosis wrote: Some Terrans are obsessed with mech.... Why? Mech is extremely boring to play and watch. 60 min slugfest? No thanks. Mech is all about defending and then the deathpush. Where is the fun in that? Planting some tanks behind a PF? Besides mech is fully viable in tvz
This comment show that you have no idea what mech is about or what terrans want with mech, if you don't know don't talk about it.
Its like saying protoss is just about death balls and 60 minutes mass colossus/storm so we should delete protoss.
And yes mech is viable in both TvZ and TvT but it needs some quality of life changes.
Thats what people don't understand about the cyclone and the AA role, we NEED the cyclone so we can have a mobile AA that allows to take possitions on the map aggressively. Other wise we depend on massing vikings/liberators for an ultimate air army, something nobody wants and mech players definitively dont want.
Cyclones are extremely bad right now. I think it's their cost. 3 supply 150/150...yah no...the unit is not supply efficient and it's too expensive.
99% of the time you'd just rather have a liberator instead of a cyclone because the liberator is the same exact cost but does 1000% more than a cyclone ever will in it's current state.
(1) Liberator is awesome. The Liberator is the AA role of the Thor with the AG role of the tank and better worker harass than a banshee, and can be used in both Bio and Mech compositions to great effect. The Liberator has also opened up all kinds of timing attacks for Terran. I really like the idea of a missile frigate like the Valkyrie.
(2) The Cyclone is horrendous. What crap beast. The lock on mechanic is utterly gimmicky and takes way too much control from the player when autocast but is practically unusable in higher supply situations if relying on manual cast. It could have been early game anti-harass, but its AA was nerfed to crap. It could have been a deadly timing push unit, but its health was nerfed. It should be anti-ultra, but if zergs run the ultras back to support units then the Cyclone's 120 health will dissolve from zerglings. I think blizz has just given up on the Cyclone and is leaving it in as a flavor unit because they spent so much money on the art.
Too bad the Cyclone is the worst unit in the damn game design wise.
Thor, Colossus, Battlecruiser, Void Ray, Corruptor are all worse than the Cyclone, design-wise.
Mechanically, the Cyclone is just a ground-phoenix with a cooldown on its fire on the move ability. I have no idea why you'd think it's so much worse (unless you think the Phoenix is equally terrible).
I've hated all of those units since day 1 of WOL I'm definitely not going to disagree that those units are crappily designed.
But if you have no idea why the Cyclone can't easily be lumped in that same category then your probably a Terran player who enjoys him some mech, it's more like a ground Phoenix that does the work for you and cannot be killed or warded off by static defense like the actual Phoenix.
It's just really really bad, the Phoenix shows off multitasking and micro, what the hell does the Cyclone show off?
On October 28 2015 04:19 CannonsNCarriers wrote: (1) Liberator is awesome. The Liberator is the AA role of the Thor with the AG role of the tank and better worker harass than a banshee, and can be used in both Bio and Mech compositions to great effect. The Liberator has also opened up all kinds of timing attacks for Terran. I really like the idea of a missile frigate like the Valkyrie.
(2) The Cyclone is horrendous. What crap beast. The lock on mechanic is utterly gimmicky and takes way too much control from the player when autocast but is practically unusable in higher supply situations if relying on manual cast. It could have been early game anti-harass, but its AA was nerfed to crap. It could have been a deadly timing push unit, but its health was nerfed. It should be anti-ultra, but if zergs run the ultras back to support units then the Cyclone's 120 health will dissolve from zerglings. I think blizz has just given up on the Cyclone and is leaving it in as a flavor unit because they spent so much money on the art.
If they keep the Liberator as is, which is okay... I hope that they change up the Thor. Because as is the liberator conpletly eliminates any reason to make Thors
On October 28 2015 03:47 Apoteosis wrote: Some Terrans are obsessed with mech.... Why? Mech is extremely boring to play and watch. 60 min slugfest? No thanks. Mech is all about defending and then the deathpush. Where is the fun in that? Planting some tanks behind a PF? Besides mech is fully viable in tvz
This comment show that you have no idea what mech is about or what terrans want with mech, if you don't know don't talk about it.
Its like saying protoss is just about death balls and 60 minutes mass colossus/storm so we should delete protoss.
And yes mech is viable in both TvZ and TvT but it needs some quality of life changes.
Thats what people don't understand about the cyclone and the AA role, we NEED the cyclone so we can have a mobile AA that allows to take possitions on the map aggressively. Other wise we depend on massing vikings/liberators for an ultimate air army, something nobody wants and mech players definitively dont want.
Vikings are the best AA terran has. Why they are so reluctant to make goddamn vikings is beyond me. It seems that you understand mech as a composition made entirely of factory units. And it is not. You know, bio isn't just barracks units, unless you think that medivacs come out of a rax.
I think this terrans obsessed with mech want an ultimate composition based on pure fact units, with no counters. That is silly. And lazy.
On October 28 2015 05:00 Gullis wrote: Because every time we start building vikings it leads to super turtling and both sides just sit back and mass air.
And regarding to counters, the counters to mech force the mecher out of mech and in to full air.
Would you say the counters to bio force the bio player out of bio?
I just have a feeling that we are never going to achieve the fabled balanced, aggressive, cost efficient, slow moving but fast and positionally strong mech-thing that people have been wanting for years. When "mech" has been good it has just been cancer mech. It tells a lot when people don´t even really agree on what mech is. Let´s just hope late hots mech won´t transition into Lotv.
I've hated all of those units since day 1 of WOL I'm definitely not going to disagree that those units are crappily designed.
You claimed that the Cyclone was the worst designed unit the game. There's no rational metric by which you can consider it more badly designed than the units I mentioned.
But if you have no idea why the Cyclone can't easily be lumped in that same category then your probably a Terran player who enjoys him some mech, it's more like a ground Phoenix that does the work for you and cannot be killed or warded off by static defense like the actual Phoenix.
How does it do the work for you? The fire-on-the-move mechanic is almost exactly the same as the phoenix (the main difference is that, unlike the Phoenix, it has a leash range and a cooldown).
The lock-on range is 7--it doesn't outrange static-D unless you pull back out of range once you lock-on. And "can't be killed or warded off by static-d" isn't an indication of how much skill's required to use it anyway.
It's just really really bad, the Phoenix shows off multitasking and micro, what the hell does the Cyclone show off?
It's a 120 HP, 150/150/3 unit that requires constant babysitting to be at all cost-effective. If the Phoenix shows off "multitasking and micro" then so does the Cyclone.
It's like you still think the unit is what it was at the beginning of the beta. It isn't.
Oh don't worry m8, to be blunt i feel like we got fuck'd. I mean the tank drops are pretty fun but the rest is horrendous, i'm not even really talking about balance here but about the pleasure of playing and how well integrated theses changes come handy in experienced Terran hands.
Now i know i'm no maru but i've been T since fucking Beta and lotv so far is not really fun.
I think the liberator is cool but the cyclone is okay. microing the liberator is a pain in the ass because people just walk outside the circle and the cyclone is next to useless when its lock on is on cooldown.
Vikings are the best AA terran has. Why they are so reluctant to make goddamn vikings is beyond me. It seems that you understand mech as a composition made entirely of factory units. And it is not. You know, bio isn't just barracks units, unless you think that medivacs come out of a rax.
As other said its because it forces you to mass air, with bio you are not forced to make air, you have marines, sure there would be instances where having air of yourself would be better(hots colossus, broodlords) but you are not forced to you can always use your marines and use micro and multitask to make up for your weakness in composition.
Not every thing should be about counter, actually nothing should be about counter, but we are too far from that now.
And on that note.
On October 28 2015 04:35 Apoteosis wrote: I think this terrans obsessed with mech want an ultimate composition based on pure fact units, with no counters. That is silly. And lazy.
Are there counters to bio? to roach/hydra? to stalker/disruptor? to ling/bane/muta?
Think about this, what is more fun, to have compositions where none completely counters the other and it comes down to skill and positioning who wins.
Or, to have 2 compositions where the first to get Y unit completely counters the enemy army?
So to answer your question, no mech should have no counter, it should about your units, each with strenghts and weaknesses, and about using them, taking position, manage your army in battles, knowing how to be aggressive, how to be defenssive and how to balance both.
IT SHOULDN'T BE ABOUT GETTING 1 OR 2 UNITS TO COUNTER EACH OTHER COMPOSITION!!
Hey guys, just registered for TL forums: personally, I feel that the Liberator will be an outstanding mid-late game unit for area control and was very much needed. It however really made the tank quite useless, and blizzard attempted to solve that with medivac drops (which if you guys didn't realize is completely BS in TvT) .
The Cyclone in my opinion may not be what mech needs, but acts as a solid support unit for hellion runbys, and can do some pretty sick damage, the high cost and low health make it very skill-oriented as well. Personally I really enjoy using this unit due to the risk-reward that seems to go with it. MINUS the cost of the unit, I mean seriously the unit has great damage potential but forcing out a price that much and still expect constant babysitting is rubbish. make the unit cost less 150/100 and we have a deal.
About the reaper D-8 charge..... well I guess it's usefull when zerg players try to stop your harass with zerglings.... oh and rock jumping.
The battlecruiser's warp is good but the fact that the bc is next to usless after it still negates its effectiveness, make the warp cost 75 energy and make all abilities have a 10 second cooldown before they can be used AFTER the warp. there...
On October 28 2015 03:47 Apoteosis wrote: Some Terrans are obsessed with mech.... Why? Mech is extremely boring to play and watch. 60 min slugfest? No thanks. Mech is all about defending and then the deathpush. Where is the fun in that? Planting some tanks behind a PF? Besides mech is fully viable in tvz
funny because mech is boring merely because tank is crap, and there is no positional play as a consequence
all you guys really needed were medivac siege tanks, that shit is so cheap it's worth not having any new units added to your arsenal. but honestly I think liberators will be part of the new meta and I'm unsure how cyclones will fit depending on how blizzard balances them.
I think the Thor is a waste of a slot and should be replaced by a goliath, after all these years they still cannot figure out how this unit should be utilized. Also ghosts, something needs to be done.
The liberator is pretty fun to use, but has too much overlap with the siege tank.
The cyclone is an objectively terribly designed unit. At least the warhound could have its numbers tweaked. The cyclone can't be saved no matter how many numbers are changed.
Tankivacs are terrible.
I'd love to see heavy rework of the siege tank, thor, and widow mine. Terran would be completely fine without any new units as it stands right now, but perhaps liberators could be somehow incorporated to mech armies.
If liberators were super fast units and not air-siege tanks, it'd be interesting to see them coupled with medivac drops against zerg to make drop defence that much more difficult. ZvT defence against harassment since wol has been to plan ahead and 1-click a small group of units, having an air unit complicates things tremendously.
Unrelated to thread but I don't want to sound like a whiner. I like the protoss and zerg changes quite a bit, they need number tweaking.
On October 27 2015 23:38 coolman123123 wrote: I am also underwhelmed because Mech as a whole is a cluster fuck. The tank still sucks, the Cyclone's design is atrocious, there is still no reliable anti-air from the factory, and Battlecruisers are still useless. There are too many units that fill extremely niche roles instead of having fewer units that are actually useful. I've been playing almost exclusively bio for so long I just want a change of pace.
Anyone CAN play mech, but it is still substantially worse than Bio except in TvT. Even after focusing exclusively on Mech, I play at least a league lower than my bio play (particularly against Toss) which is much easier to execute and far more effective. This game shouldn't be balanced around the idea that I CAN play a a style and its okay as long as I'm not at pro level because I can still win games playing artificially below my skill level. I could make literally ANY style work up until pro level, doesnt mean its properly tuned. Terran got the short end of the stick here because we are forced to play the same style since WoL. People need to stop thinking Mech is inherently boring. A well designed Mech will create extremely good games, look at BW.
On October 29 2015 11:19 parkufarku wrote: why is this pointless thread still open? Terrans are far from getting shafted in LoTV, they are still the strongest and most cost efficient race
this isn't about balance, it's about playing Bio only for the 3rd straight expansion and the new units being underwhelming. Liberator at least adds something new to the later stages of the game, but compared to the other races I feel Terran is mostly the same.
I really don't like the new terran units. The liberators are making mutas completly useless and I fear for the zergling/ baneling style in zvt. Moreover, the anti ground ability is abit awkward in comparaison to the tanks... I must be one of the only one but I regret the mines because despite the flaws of this units, the zerg was forced to micro and engage very well, I am pretty sure that I will miss this part of the game of hots... It might be the only one tho!
On October 05 2015 01:53 IMplying wrote: Please note, this is in no ways a balance complaint.
I think Terran got the short end of the stick design wise.
I feel like the only cool things Terran gets in LotV are the Reaper grenades, which seem to only be a factor in the early game and Siege Tank drops, which go against the nature of what a Tank is supposed to be.
The Liberator and Cyclone are both very stale units in my opinion, especially if you compare them to Disruptors, Adepts and Ravagers. The Liberator has no interesting micro capabilities and fills the role which Tanks should have filled since WoL. The Cyclone also is boring to use and in a very weird place design wise where it's either very ineffective in low numbers, but gets almost broken once you hit a critical mass. Also both units seem to be frustrating for the other races to play against because there is little counterplay.
I feel like both Zerg and Protoss get really cool units/changes that allow for very interesting and diverse plays while Terran is more or less the same.
How do you guys feel about that?
I actually like the Liberator, the new ghost, the reaper grenade, so I would not say terrans did not get new toys. But hell the cyclone is stupid to play, stupid to play against and looks awful.
On October 28 2015 03:47 Apoteosis wrote: Some Terrans are obsessed with mech.... Why? Mech is extremely boring to play and watch. 60 min slugfest? No thanks. Mech is all about defending and then the deathpush. Where is the fun in that? Planting some tanks behind a PF? Besides mech is fully viable in tvz
funny because mech is boring merely because tank is crap, and there is no positional play as a consequence
Yes, Mech would be so much more fun if tanks were stronger, so you can never break it by a ground army! And since the request of having a better tank often goes with having a factory unit with good AA , you can't break it by a air army either.
All the changes you guys asked for mech, while they may allow to be more aggressive on the maps, they mostly would strengthened defensive (read turtle) play, which is the easier way to play so a lot of people would play like this. If you want to buff tanks damage, then it should at the same time be much more fragile, takes more time to siege up or stuff like these, otherwise all you guys are asking sound like an easy to produce unbreakable army.
Tanks will never be useful when your opponent can produce 100 units within a second, over and over (unless you buff the damage to an absurd amount). The liberator must also have really high DPS to be playable. And yea, cyclones are just boring, there is nothing more to say to this. I guess it's just that terran feels already "complete".
On October 29 2015 21:19 MapleLeafSirup wrote: Tanks will never be useful when your opponent can produce 100 units within a second, over and over (unless you buff the damage to an absurd amount). The liberator must also have really high DPS to be playable. And yea, cyclones are just boring, there is nothing more to say to this. I guess it's just that terran feels already "complete".
Maybe you should not let zerg take 10-bases around the map.
On October 05 2015 01:53 IMplying wrote: Please note, this is in no ways a balance complaint.
I think Terran got the short end of the stick design wise.
I feel like the only cool things Terran gets in LotV are the Reaper grenades, which seem to only be a factor in the early game and Siege Tank drops, which go against the nature of what a Tank is supposed to be.
The Liberator and Cyclone are both very stale units in my opinion, especially if you compare them to Disruptors, Adepts and Ravagers. The Liberator has no interesting micro capabilities and fills the role which Tanks should have filled since WoL. The Cyclone also is boring to use and in a very weird place design wise where it's either very ineffective in low numbers, but gets almost broken once you hit a critical mass. Also both units seem to be frustrating for the other races to play against because there is little counterplay.
I feel like both Zerg and Protoss get really cool units/changes that allow for very interesting and diverse plays while Terran is more or less the same.
How do you guys feel about that?
I actually like the Liberator, the new ghost, the reaper grenade, so I would not say terrans did not get new toys. But hell the cyclone is stupid to play, stupid to play against and looks awful.
I think a lot of this comes down to a comparison to what the other races got; specifically: point-and-click instant-death abilities.
- Zerg, at hatch-tech, now has a point-and-click AOE spell, on cooldown, that can hit ground, air, and destroy force fields. This is a super cool ability, it's skillful, and fun to play (still mind-boggling that this is not lair tech, but that's a different discussion). What did Terran get at this stage of the game? Reaper grenades, which are fun, and cool, and add a lot to the game ... except for the ability to kill stuff.
- Zerg, at Hive tech, got parasitic bomb. It's a point-and-click instant death spell that absolutely destroys air compositions (which are currently the most powerful compositions in the game). This gives Zerg a decided advantage in extreme late game scenarios.
- Protoss got the Disruptor. Thankfully this is fairly high up the tech tree. This new unit trades resources for free (a cooldown attack); capable of one-shotting 15-20 supply, and in some cases, for zero risk; because the two armies are in a standoff. This free attack also hits cloaked and burrowed units!
NOTE on the disruptor: can we get rid of the burrowed-tell graphics now that the Disruptor and Ravager are basically detectors? I mean, widow mines basically raise a diver's flag their tell is so obvious.
Corrosive Bile and Disruptor shots attack cloaked and burrowed units. So do Reaper grenades, technically ... HA. This is why some Terrans feel a little cheated. Takes 5 grenades to kill a single worker, and you're definitely not taking on widow mines or Lurkers with reaper grenades.
Corrosive Bile and Disruptor shots are also capable of hitting buildings. So do Reaper grenades, which is lol again, but you know what cannot attack buildings? Liberators, along with a host of other Terran units and abilities. Oh shit, and how could I forget ... Corruptors can now attack buildings! Hahaha. Almost forgot about that funny new thing.
These are some of the reasons why some Terran probably feel a little cheated.
I think the Liberator is fantastic; an awesome new unit. The Reaper grenade is great too, adds a lot to the arsenal. The Cyclone is a unit that exists. But when compared to the utility and versatility of Corrosive Bile, Parasitic Bomb and the Purification Nova, Terran seems to have gotten the short end of the stick ...
Oh, and Terran is the only race who had a new unit completely axed from the beta (R.I.P., HERC). This probably added to the salt a little bit too.
Takeaway -- instead of the Reaper Grenade being the comparative new point-and-click thingy that we get, can the Liberator or the Cyclone have the ability to hit burrowed units without a detector, and also hit buildings that outrange static-D? That'd be great.
I feel like Terran has slowly lost it's identity since WoL. I always imagine Terran as being the race of positional control, strong defense and a creeping offense. It was a bit like that in WoL sans TvP which has always been a more fast-paced bio centric matchup. But then they added the widow mine in HotS and much of the Terran identity of space control was lost. The WM stepped on the toes of the siege tank which is the cornerstone of what makes Terran. Now instead of trying to creep and gain ground it was more about rushing into a battle with Bio + WM. LotV feels even worse now with flying tanks and the Liberator stepping on the tank's toes yet again.
Quite pleased with the units for the most part. Cyclone is a bit messy but if they can fine tune it I would be happy with it. I think a stim ability for the Cyclone would make it much more fun and more useful in the early game, also to synergise with bio play. Obviously it would have to be nerfed to compensate etc.
Love the liberator, forces the meta to change in TvX matchups and I'm sure people will figure out a lot of new strategies around it as time goes by. Sky Terran anyone?
I think the possibility for very exciting mech play is there. Hard to say with nothing fleshed out yet. But, I squirm in glee with thoughts of these types of games if I had the ability to pull it off:
On October 28 2015 03:47 Apoteosis wrote: Some Terrans are obsessed with mech.... Why? Mech is extremely boring to play and watch. 60 min slugfest? No thanks. Mech is all about defending and then the deathpush. Where is the fun in that? Planting some tanks behind a PF? Besides mech is fully viable in tvz
funny because mech is boring merely because tank is crap, and there is no positional play as a consequence
Yes, Mech would be so much more fun if tanks were stronger, so you can never break it by a ground army! And since the request of having a better tank often goes with having a factory unit with good AA , you can't break it by a air army either.
All the changes you guys asked for mech, while they may allow to be more aggressive on the maps, they mostly would strengthened defensive (read turtle) play, which is the easier way to play so a lot of people would play like this. If you want to buff tanks damage, then it should at the same time be much more fragile, takes more time to siege up or stuff like these, otherwise all you guys are asking sound like an easy to produce unbreakable army.
LOL try to turtle on LotV mate, you need a third by the 10 min mark, also there's no real end-game like in HotS since they nerfed the ravens into oblivion and added PB and stronger carriers.
In LotV if you turtle, YOU DIE, no matter what playstyle you are playing.
On October 28 2015 03:47 Apoteosis wrote: Some Terrans are obsessed with mech.... Why? Mech is extremely boring to play and watch. 60 min slugfest? No thanks. Mech is all about defending and then the deathpush. Where is the fun in that? Planting some tanks behind a PF? Besides mech is fully viable in tvz
funny because mech is boring merely because tank is crap, and there is no positional play as a consequence
Yes, Mech would be so much more fun if tanks were stronger, so you can never break it by a ground army! And since the request of having a better tank often goes with having a factory unit with good AA , you can't break it by a air army either.
All the changes you guys asked for mech, while they may allow to be more aggressive on the maps, they mostly would strengthened defensive (read turtle) play, which is the easier way to play so a lot of people would play like this. If you want to buff tanks damage, then it should at the same time be much more fragile, takes more time to siege up or stuff like these, otherwise all you guys are asking sound like an easy to produce unbreakable army.
LOL try to turtle on LotV mate, you need a third by the 10 min mark, also there's no real end-game like in HotS since they nerfed the ravens into oblivion and added PB and stronger carriers.
In LotV if you turtle, YOU DIE, no matter what playstyle you are playing.
Yes and that's good in my opinion, so any buff that goes back to some kind of turtle play and/or deathball play is a step back in the wrong direction.
On October 28 2015 03:47 Apoteosis wrote: Some Terrans are obsessed with mech.... Why? Mech is extremely boring to play and watch. 60 min slugfest? No thanks. Mech is all about defending and then the deathpush. Where is the fun in that? Planting some tanks behind a PF? Besides mech is fully viable in tvz
funny because mech is boring merely because tank is crap, and there is no positional play as a consequence
Yes, Mech would be so much more fun if tanks were stronger, so you can never break it by a ground army! And since the request of having a better tank often goes with having a factory unit with good AA , you can't break it by a air army either.
All the changes you guys asked for mech, while they may allow to be more aggressive on the maps, they mostly would strengthened defensive (read turtle) play, which is the easier way to play so a lot of people would play like this. If you want to buff tanks damage, then it should at the same time be much more fragile, takes more time to siege up or stuff like these, otherwise all you guys are asking sound like an easy to produce unbreakable army.
LOL try to turtle on LotV mate, you need a third by the 10 min mark, also there's no real end-game like in HotS since they nerfed the ravens into oblivion and added PB and stronger carriers.
In LotV if you turtle, YOU DIE, no matter what playstyle you are playing.
Yes and that's good in my opinion, so any buff that goes back to some kind of turtle play and/or deathball play is a step back in the wrong direction.
At this point I don't know if you are trolling or not, but none of the changes to tanks the community propose (most notably the damage buff/overkill removal) actually encourage turtle play at all, actually all the opposite.
Totally anti-hyped tbh. Neither playing or watching at the moment. When BL/Winfestor was the end to Wings, HotS simply became 'stale' there were NO interesting plays. Just Terrans who perform at 60,70,80 or 90% of Innovation/Maru level. The beta was dominated by protoss bullshit. When the Warhound was introduced, it died after one week of imbaness, well protoss got a whole beta of imbaness.
What I don't like:
TvT Making more stuff beats strat and position everytime now. Every early little macro fault is boosted 10x over. I am not referring to the macro boosters, but the 12 worker start. There is basicly ONE right build, not TWO. The One gets you infinity more Stuff and then you just A move center of map and see what happens, or doom drop. And that "One Build to go" was what made Hots so lame at the end.
TvP Warpin, Snipe now useless against HT?, Carrier + Stasis Ward ( LOOOOOOOOL THATS FUCKING HILARIOUS)
TvZ Viper+Bomb, Corruptor Anti Building, Ravager, Immortal Ultra, Basedefense made by Lurker. Ultras now plow through Bio like it was leafs, Viper were strong against mech with BC, but Zerg did not even recognized this because all they did was SH camping. Now its BC on the ground and Parasite the air, boom there you go a flying infestor with no counter. Only that the infestor is still arround, zergs just to bad to make use of them. You HAD vikings if you use 10 range against 9 Casting range because they get bombed. Thors need too many shots, and you cant go bio because of ultra. Maaybe the cyclone is the answer, but i never made those TBH.
TL;DR :
More Workers, less minerals, More units. The game theoretically becomes more complex. In the end all you can do is One strat and depend on mistakes because the game is so fast. A move is better than micro because you have to macro.
I don't like the cyclone, but I'm okay with the Liberator. I don't really want to hop on the race-envy bandwagon with the rest. I just want a second new, fun thing with LotV and it certainly isn't medivac-tank or the cyclone.