|
I have to make this thread because playing in the beta right now as Terran is quite frustrating and the continual nerfing of Terran as an entire race through their economy is quite frustrating.
What am i talking about?
Mules were nerfed to bring in less income. Chrono was nerfed. Larva inject was nerfed. The problem?
The above macro mechanics ARE NOT EQUAL AT ALL STAGES IN THE GAME.
The above nerfs that have occurred have made Terran the undisputed weakest race intrinsically, with Protoss in second, and Zerg as god tier again.
The reasons?
Let me explain - the way SC2 works is a player wants to reach their 50-60 worker economy and then can focus on building mostly military units.
Mules have always been essential for Terran to compete with the other two races macro mechanics. That extra income may not seem like a lot, but even early game missing a few hundred minerals is a huge hit to the entire race because it means certain things that were necessary to survive early game, especially versus P/Z all-ins you cannot afford now (such as a simple depot wall). This drastically impacts the game.
MACRO MECHANICS ARE NOT EQUAL I SAY THIS AGAIN TO RE-EMPHASIZE IT.
Protoss took the second biggest hit to macro, because with nerfed chrono it'll take slightly longer to get to their desired worker count. But they are still in better shape than Terran because chrono has late game uses on buildings/production and once you do reach the desired worker count now you are playing versus a handicapped Terran.
Finally, Zerg is now the god tier race again. Nerfing larva inject to 3 does not matter at all because Zerg always have had some extra larva in many situations...but more importantly...Zerg will still reach their 50/60 drone count and now be playing versus both handicapped TErrans/Protosses because nothing changes with Zerg's economy at all. It's the same pre and post patch.
Blizzard needs to, ONCE AGAIN, stop nerfing the macro mechanics or doing anything to them at all arbitrarily and put them back to as they were.
In my games in beta, i am seeing about 80% Zerg players, 15% Protoss, and 5% Terrans. That is just a rough estimate from my own gameplay experiences. There are other things that need to be addressed asap, such as vipers/carriers/liberators, but i'll save that for another thread.
Once again, it's a numbers game when it comes to economy...i hope people will discuss the current macro mechanics and why they agree or disagree with my opinions on them.
I can only hope they are fully reverted back to normal again to restore some semblance of race balance to the game.
|
Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25
|
Revert to Hots macro. DOne.
|
Avilo complaining about Zerg being imbalanced /god tier race now, can't' say i'm surprised even after Terran gets MULE buff, Avilo says it was a nerf. :-p
|
8716 Posts
the equivalent things between races in starcraft are not supposed to be equal. races are supposed to be better at some things and worse at others. the win percentages are all that need to be kept balanced. everything else is supposed to be as unequal as possible, for the sake of variety. it's no good looking at the "macro mechanics" of each race and trying to bring them in line with each other's effectiveness in every situation. that's not how the game is supposed to be balanced or designed
|
Mule/Chrono/Larva needs to disappear from the game. That is the only thing they need to do.
|
On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote: the equivalent things between races in starcraft are not supposed to be equal. races are supposed to be better at some things and worse at others. the win percentages are all that need to be kept balanced. everything else is supposed to be as unequal as possible, for the sake of variety. it's no good looking at the "macro mechanics" of each race and trying to bring them in line with each other's effectiveness in every situation. that's not how the game is supposed to be balanced or designed
If we only look at win perecentages we end up like Hots with horrible design and don't let him get there.
Mech Cancer Stalkers 2/2 blink with sentrys Bl/Infestor
All had Times where win perecentages where okay even tho everyone knew how broken those are.
So yeah balancing after win rates is the fastest way to kill this game.
This is the main reason why the game still has problems, balance after win rates cuz pros know everything.
|
"50-60 worker economy"
Haha, gl with 50 drones. You will be getting rolled in short order.
Also, "The above macro mechanics ARE NOT EQUAL AT ALL STAGES IN THE GAME."
Ya... That's kinda the point. They're not equal at all. Races are different; completely different. This isn't Age of Empires.
|
On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25
Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push.
Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please.
|
On October 13 2015 01:06 avilo wrote: . Nerfing larva inject to 3 does not matter at all because Zerg always have had some extra larva in many situations..
How clueless is this guy. Larva management is the most important thing. And Zerg never wants to be sitting on larva because that means the hatchery isn't producing larva (which means every 10 seconds you have more than 3 larva you are losing ANOTHER larva.)
|
On October 13 2015 01:34 GGzerG wrote: Avilo complaining about Zerg being imbalanced /god tier race now, can't' say i'm surprised even after Terran gets MULE buff, Avilo says it was a nerf. :-p
Yeah, yeah. It's so popular to hate on Avilo. He's a sensationalist, sure, but that doesn't mean he's auto-wrong. The MULE has been tampered with constantly in the beta, and it's true that this last patch was a buff to the MULE, only relative to the last patch, and the previous patches where the MULE was less effective than the HotS MULE.
The current LotV MULE is a nerfed MULE from HotS.
And I don't think anyone is saying the three macro abilities are "equal". I mean, how could you? Larva is (supply), MULE is (minerals), and Chrono is (time). Chrono is arguably the most fundamental of the three, in that it affects the timing of anything, but in SC2 supply is paramount. This is one of the reasons Spawn Larva has been so difficult to balance (it seems). That, and the unit that casts Spawn Larva is an excellent early-game all-purpose defender unit spellcaster.
I'd like to see MULE reverted to HotS, full efficiency.
I'd like to see Chronoboost's interface recerted to HotS, not sure on the efficiency.
Spawn Larva might be okay as it is. I don't know. I know that it can't be 4 larva.
On October 13 2015 01:55 loft wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:06 avilo wrote: . Nerfing larva inject to 3 does not matter at all because Zerg always have had some extra larva in many situations.. How clueless is this guy. Larva management is the most important thing. And Zerg never wants to be sitting on larva because that means the hatchery isn't producing larva (which means every 10 seconds you have more than 3 larva you are losing ANOTHER larva.)
Maybe you're not familiar with Avilo. He is many things, but clueless is not one of them.
Zergs are constantly floating larva. That's kinda the whole point of their design; so they can react to their opponents.
|
On October 13 2015 01:43 Daizer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote: the equivalent things between races in starcraft are not supposed to be equal. races are supposed to be better at some things and worse at others. the win percentages are all that need to be kept balanced. everything else is supposed to be as unequal as possible, for the sake of variety. it's no good looking at the "macro mechanics" of each race and trying to bring them in line with each other's effectiveness in every situation. that's not how the game is supposed to be balanced or designed If we only look at win perecentages we end up like Hots with horrible design and don't let him get there.
HotS is not an example of "horrible design"
|
On October 13 2015 01:49 SC2Angora wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25 Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push. Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please.
Look at top 16 GM
It was full of Protoss and Terrans and 2-3 Zergs Its now 6 Terrans, 3 Zergs and the rest Protoss
Terran wasn't the weakest at all, if a race had problems then Zerg is.
|
On October 13 2015 02:03 TimeSpiral wrote: I'd like to see MULE reverted to HotS, full efficiency.
I'd like to see Chronoboost's interface recerted to HotS, not sure on the efficiency.
Spawn Larva might be okay as it is. I don't know. I know that it can't be 4 larva.
Okay so you want Terran to have full HOTS efficiency mules... but for Protoss and Zerg to both have nerfed versions of their HOTS mechanics??
In what world is that fair???
|
On October 13 2015 02:06 Daizer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:49 SC2Angora wrote:On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25 Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push. Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please. Look at top 16 GM It was full of Protoss and Terrans and 2-3 Zergs Its now 6 Terrans, 3 Zergs and the rest Protoss Terran wasn't the weakest at all, if a race had problems then Zerg is.
Right now its 6 Protoss 5 Terran 5 zerg so plz dont say something false...
|
Chrono took bigger hits than mules.
You start the game with equal workers, that already means an advantage for terran because in HOTS by the time protoss is on 12 workers, the terran is only on 10 scvs due to chrono
You cant stack it so build orders take a big hit, for example going 15nexus wastes you like a minute of chronoboost because you need to cut for so long to afford it.
It is now only 15% "passive production boost" which means you cant quickly get upgrades on your forges or storm or blink.
You cant have an "oh shit im being allined, better spennd all my chrono on gates so i can maybe can an extra round of units before it hits me.
You shouldnt just look at numbers, there are far bigger nerfs for chrono than just the number, mule should go further down not up.
|
On October 13 2015 02:03 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:34 GGzerG wrote: Avilo complaining about Zerg being imbalanced /god tier race now, can't' say i'm surprised even after Terran gets MULE buff, Avilo says it was a nerf. :-p Yeah, yeah. It's so popular to hate on Avilo. He's a sensationalist, sure, but that doesn't mean he's auto-wrong. The MULE has been tampered with constantly in the beta, and it's true that this last patch was a buff to the MULE, only relative to the last patch, and the previous patches where the MULE was less effective than the HotS MULE. The current LotV MULE is a nerfed MULE from HotS. And I don't think anyone is saying the three macro abilities are "equal". I mean, how could you? Larva is (supply), MULE is (minerals), and Chrono is (time). Chrono is arguably the most fundamental of the three, in that it affects the timing of anything, but in SC2 supply is paramount. This is one of the reasons Spawn Larva has been so difficult to balance (it seems). That, and the unit that casts Spawn Larva is an excellent early-game all-purpose defender unit spellcaster. I'd like to see MULE reverted to HotS, full efficiency. I'd like to see Chronoboost's interface recerted to HotS, not sure on the efficiency. Spawn Larva might be okay as it is. I don't know. I know that it can't be 4 larva. Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:55 loft wrote:On October 13 2015 01:06 avilo wrote: . Nerfing larva inject to 3 does not matter at all because Zerg always have had some extra larva in many situations.. How clueless is this guy. Larva management is the most important thing. And Zerg never wants to be sitting on larva because that means the hatchery isn't producing larva (which means every 10 seconds you have more than 3 larva you are losing ANOTHER larva.) Maybe you're not familiar with Avilo. He is many things, but clueless is not one of them. Zergs are constantly floating larva. That's kinda the whole point of their design; so they can react to their opponents. Yes, he is auto-wrong. He is doing nothing but lobbyist work. He is also doing marketing for his little clown show. He was the one who said that the original Cyclone was 100% balanced, if not too weak. Terran has crazy good eco at the moment. He fails to play terran properly
|
On October 13 2015 02:06 Daizer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:49 SC2Angora wrote:On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25 Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push. Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please. Look at top 16 GM It was full of Protoss and Terrans and 2-3 Zergs Its now 6 Terrans, 3 Zergs and the rest Protoss Terran wasn't the weakest at all, if a race had problems then Zerg is.
And the trend is that all terrans are climbing, if it keeps like this we just have terrans in a week.
|
8716 Posts
On October 13 2015 01:43 Daizer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote: the equivalent things between races in starcraft are not supposed to be equal. races are supposed to be better at some things and worse at others. the win percentages are all that need to be kept balanced. everything else is supposed to be as unequal as possible, for the sake of variety. it's no good looking at the "macro mechanics" of each race and trying to bring them in line with each other's effectiveness in every situation. that's not how the game is supposed to be balanced or designed If we only look at win perecentages we end up like Hots with horrible design and don't let him get there. Mech Cancer Stalkers 2/2 blink with sentrys Bl/Infestor All had Times where win perecentages where okay even tho everyone knew how broken those are. So yeah balancing after win rates is the fastest way to kill this game. This is the main reason why the game still has problems, balance after win rates cuz pros know everything.
On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote:for the sake of variety
|
Pictures tell more than 1000 Words:
If Blizzard would listen to their community the clusterfuck of a game would maybe even surpass Seaman Oh wait ... they are actually listening to it ...
|
On October 13 2015 02:19 TenMin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:06 Daizer wrote:On October 13 2015 01:49 SC2Angora wrote:On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25 Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push. Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please. Look at top 16 GM It was full of Protoss and Terrans and 2-3 Zergs Its now 6 Terrans, 3 Zergs and the rest Protoss Terran wasn't the weakest at all, if a race had problems then Zerg is. And the trend is that all terrans are climbing, if it keeps like this we just have terrans in a week.
This is true. Sadly Blizzard listens to peoples complaints like this and it ends up ruining the game...
All of the races got nerfed, and it's arguable which race got it worst. But to act like Terran are incapable of producing just because the current Mule nerf (which after last patch is not really that bad at all) is silly.
Also to act like Mules are only to "keep up" is silly.... In many situations Mules actually allow terran to not simply "keep up" but also OUTPRODUCE the other races. Mules are still CRAZY strong... just look at the math of how much a single mule gives you!! Even compared to the HotS version it is still a huge benefit!!
This thread is littered with Terran bias. Like how "Zerg is a god tier race" and "they can drone exponentially"... If Zerg was god tier than how come they have had the worst showing in lotv GM for months? And yes they can drone exponentially but ONLY if they sacrifice production elsewhere, any time a Zerg is able to drone exponentially they are giving the opponent a window of vulnerability. This should open happen if you are being passive and letting them drone, or if they have gained the advantage on the battlefield already.
Find a training partner and play some straight macro games, and look at the resource graphs at the end. If the Terran player is on point with mules the production is still insane... and is AHEAD OF ZERG for a sizable portion of the game!
|
On October 13 2015 02:22 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:43 Daizer wrote:On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote: the equivalent things between races in starcraft are not supposed to be equal. races are supposed to be better at some things and worse at others. the win percentages are all that need to be kept balanced. everything else is supposed to be as unequal as possible, for the sake of variety. it's no good looking at the "macro mechanics" of each race and trying to bring them in line with each other's effectiveness in every situation. that's not how the game is supposed to be balanced or designed If we only look at win perecentages we end up like Hots with horrible design and don't let him get there. Mech Cancer Stalkers 2/2 blink with sentrys Bl/Infestor All had Times where win perecentages where okay even tho everyone knew how broken those are. So yeah balancing after win rates is the fastest way to kill this game. This is the main reason why the game still has problems, balance after win rates cuz pros know everything.
Yeah, you can have variety by making certain maps, its more important to fix design and balance for the game.
The best way to change variety is fast balance patches to change meta and maps
You know like other games do!
I feel you forgot that Bl/Infestor and blink era killed this game views and popularity.
|
On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote: the equivalent things between races in starcraft are not supposed to be equal. races are supposed to be better at some things and worse at others. the win percentages are all that need to be kept balanced. everything else is supposed to be as unequal as possible, for the sake of variety. it's no good looking at the "macro mechanics" of each race and trying to bring them in line with each other's effectiveness in every situation. that's not how the game is supposed to be balanced or designed
I have said the exact same thing as you Nony. I love the fact all the races have different mechanics, and i love how they are in HOTS tbh. The late game mass larva remax, the late game mass gateways, late game mass mules.
Problem is, the nerfs/changes blizzard did are not equal is what i was trying to say in my original post.
Terran / Protoss losing out on hundreds of resources early game, while Zerg essentially has the same exact economy...yeah, not going to ever work.
I think you misunderstood my original post or i slightly misconveyed it. I meant the nerfs/changes to all of the macro mechanics are not equal. Zerg to me is now the god tier race of the game.
Also one other thing i have to mention and bring up for discussion: for some strange reason people only seem to understand and put changes into the context of the first week they are out. Looking further down the line, it's really easy to see lategame T will end up the weakest when people learn more defensive macro play and games will always trend to go longer as people learn the game more and die less to rushes.
I mean, most good Zergs can already defend into 50-60 drones extremely easily and then they are just playing on god mode vs Terran with nerfed mules.
|
On October 13 2015 01:06 avilo wrote: I have to make this thread because playing in the beta right now as Terran is quite frustrating and the continual nerfing of Terran as an entire race through their economy is quite frustrating.
What am i talking about?
Mules were nerfed to bring in less income. Chrono was nerfed. Larva inject was nerfed. The problem?
The above macro mechanics ARE NOT EQUAL AT ALL STAGES IN THE GAME.
The above nerfs that have occurred have made Terran the undisputed weakest race intrinsically, with Protoss in second, and Zerg as god tier again.
The reasons?
Let me explain - the way SC2 works is a player wants to reach their 50-60 worker economy and then can focus on building mostly military units.
Mules have always been essential for Terran to compete with the other two races macro mechanics. That extra income may not seem like a lot, but even early game missing a few hundred minerals is a huge hit to the entire race because it means certain things that were necessary to survive early game, especially versus P/Z all-ins you cannot afford now (such as a simple depot wall). This drastically impacts the game.
MACRO MECHANICS ARE NOT EQUAL I SAY THIS AGAIN TO RE-EMPHASIZE IT.
Protoss took the second biggest hit to macro, because with nerfed chrono it'll take slightly longer to get to their desired worker count. But they are still in better shape than Terran because chrono has late game uses on buildings/production and once you do reach the desired worker count now you are playing versus a handicapped Terran.
Finally, Zerg is now the god tier race again. Nerfing larva inject to 3 does not matter at all because Zerg always have had some extra larva in many situations...but more importantly...Zerg will still reach their 50/60 drone count and now be playing versus both handicapped TErrans/Protosses because nothing changes with Zerg's economy at all. It's the same pre and post patch.
Blizzard needs to, ONCE AGAIN, stop nerfing the macro mechanics or doing anything to them at all arbitrarily and put them back to as they were.
In my games in beta, i am seeing about 80% Zerg players, 15% Protoss, and 5% Terrans. That is just a rough estimate from my own gameplay experiences. There are other things that need to be addressed asap, such as vipers/carriers/liberators, but i'll save that for another thread.
Once again, it's a numbers game when it comes to economy...i hope people will discuss the current macro mechanics and why they agree or disagree with my opinions on them.
I can only hope they are fully reverted back to normal again to restore some semblance of race balance to the game.
Avilo i am quite in shock.Terran got a smallest MM nerf and toss the biggest yet you act like Terran was hurt the most.I know you dont like to play bio but with the current mule small buff,bio is way to much cost efficent. Also lets not mention the fact that mass mule in late game is still abused after david kim said he KNOW its op(with 95% of the community), but i do think that they need to go back to HOTS MM since its too hard to balance the nerf to MM with chrono the same,nerf to late game mule hammer with cast ranage for mule,and the new inject.So if you think that the extra 5 mineral is what make Terran so week,i got no porblem to go back to HOTS stats since its way more balanced from what its now.Maybe it was a nerf to the mech player who needs lots of money since its cost alot but its a buff to all bio players
|
It is hard to tell how balance is right now, I think it needs more time and testing. Terran seems to have a slight edge, but I am not 100% sure yet. GM distribution seems pretty even, just needs a few more zergs if anything.
|
On October 13 2015 03:47 intense555 wrote: It is hard to tell how balance is right now, I think it needs more time and testing. Terran seems to have a slight edge, but I am not 100% sure yet. GM distribution seems pretty even, just needs a few more zergs if anything.
GM is favored with more of Protoss, then Terran and Zerg is in last place.
But somehow David Kim thinks Terran is the weakest.
He also thinks HotS is balanced and his afraid to fix SH cuz it could make Zerg to good.
Even tho Zerg has 4 players in Blizzcon and its consider underpowered by many.
So yeah.. logic doesn't apply at all, not like I expect that when they contradict their own words in community updates
|
On October 13 2015 03:58 Daizer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 03:47 intense555 wrote: It is hard to tell how balance is right now, I think it needs more time and testing. Terran seems to have a slight edge, but I am not 100% sure yet. GM distribution seems pretty even, just needs a few more zergs if anything. GM is favored with more of Protoss, then Terran and Zerg is in last place. But somehow David Kim thinks Terran is the weakest. He also thinks HotS is balanced and his afraid to fix SH cuz it could make Zerg to good. Even tho Zerg has 4 players in Blizzcon and its consider underpowered by many. So yeah.. logic doesn't apply at all, not like I expect that when they contradict their own words in community updates Your posts seem to be about balance whining instead of constructive feedback a bit too often. Can you really claim imbalance (winrates in a certain race's favor) in the first place with such little experience and data?
|
Avilo if you want to play a symmetrical RTS game, go play age of empires and please, spare us of your constant balance whine.
|
On October 13 2015 03:03 avilo wrote: I mean, most good Zergs can already defend into 50-60 drones extremely easily and then they are just playing on god mode vs Terran with nerfed mules.
Stop, just please stop. Every post you make is a balance whine since WOL Beta. When Terran isn't weak vs Protoss, it is weak vs Zerg...reminds me of when we played in WOL Beta and you were complaining about imbalance then too. I guess it can be pretty hard to sit and do literally nothing all game atm in LOTV, that may be why your having a little issue with your cancer mech style.
|
On October 13 2015 02:12 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:03 TimeSpiral wrote: I'd like to see MULE reverted to HotS, full efficiency.
I'd like to see Chronoboost's interface recerted to HotS, not sure on the efficiency.
Spawn Larva might be okay as it is. I don't know. I know that it can't be 4 larva.
Okay so you want Terran to have full HOTS efficiency mules... but for Protoss and Zerg to both have nerfed versions of their HOTS mechanics?? In what world is that fair???
Oh, well I don't know if would be fair, or if it would be balanced. But I'll explain my thought process: HotS level MM's will have a different affect on all of the match-ups because of how different the game plays. The 12-worker start, the diminished resources per base, and the myriad different unit stats, and of course, new units and abilities.
So while right on the surface giving Terran the HotS MULE while nerfing Spawn Larva and Chronoboost might just seem blatantly biased and unfair (still might be, mind you), they are in the context of a game that plays completely differently.
I also think that certain units/abilities being out of whack at the moment is severely obfuscating where the MMs need to be.
It is a fact that Chronoboost was nerfed the most. But did it have the most detrimental impact? That's hard to say because of how ridiculously strong the Adept, Warp Prism, PO, and Carriers are, atm. Once they balance out these units maybe the effects of the CB nerf will become more apparent.
|
Pretty blatant stream advertisment if you ask me.
|
avilo unfortunately can press the buttons and got himself the gm, even to me . . not a gm . . . a lot of what he says doesnt make any sense. when he was complaining terran were weakest race, teaja, maru and innovation were winning everything, while he got knocked out of his placement matches . . where am i going with this . . oh ye on topic
I dont think avilo can be happy with anything ,he complained way too much in hots . . when we all agree its pretty balanced that game, and the beta is just broke according to him . . so on the basis of everything ive said here. move along people nothing to see here but whatever you do dont go over to his stream out of morbid curiousity . . .winters still get 2-3k views . . i though we all hate him?
|
|
On October 13 2015 06:02 Nerchio wrote: avilo please
pretty please?
|
The responses in this thread are kind of disgusting. I would have expected this kind of reception on the Battle.net forums.
After completely fucking up the macro mechanics, not once, but twice in this beta, Blizzard seems to have finally grasped the notion that macro mechanics are not equal and cannot be adjusted "equally" without spawning a host of repercussions for racial balance. Finally. After 5 years of this game existing, they realize what anyone should have been able to say just by looking at what the macro mechanics do.
ITT: having witnessed Blizzard's repeated failures and lessons learned with the macro mechanics, plenty of people on TL - not on Battle.net, not on Reddit, on TL - still have no fucking clue.
If Terrans are in fact winning too much despite the Mule nerf, that DOESN'T MEAN THE MULE NERF IS FINE, it means that something else in the Terran line-up is so disproportionately strong that it's propping up Terran's gutted early game economy. So we're going to have dumb Terran losses in the early game, and then dumb Terran wins in the late game, or wherever the issue lies. But hey, as long as it's 50/50, right?!
|
I'm just saying I'm having a lot of fun watching him stream right now. 0-7 with "the god tier race". I guess he has switched from "zerg is broken" to "protoss is even more broken". But to be fair, I would say that he is losing because he is actually trying to max on 3bases with only 50-60drones. And he is getting out-ecoed so hard every game. *hint* *hint*
Edit: Oh, most fun I'm having is with the "how can he afford all of this" comments. Yeah, how can the terran and protoss afford all of this when zerg is so much more god tier. Edit: "this dumbfuck has like random medivac drops, killing my bases without reason"... holy fuck, Terran has drops now? WUT? WUUUUTTTT???!!!! time for bed, seen enough diamonds trash him tonight
|
The fact that this guy can say zerg is "god tier" in the beta right now shows just how stupid he is. Maybe if he didn't play passive as fuck all the time he would realize killing zerg with terran is pretty fucking easy.
|
I do like variety but asymmetry in SC2 has proven time and time again on how it makes the game volatile (the macro boosters make this worse). On paper it sounds intriguing but to me its the source of frustration and whining because at certain parts of the game or scenarios, the other player feels hapless to do anything i.e. feel imba unless knew beforehand.
I guess the difference from its predecessor is that this game takes the difference to a whole new level. I mean in the old game, the races were alot more similiar to one another (even the economy) than SC2 but the differences in gameplay and mechanics didn't get affected too much.
|
|
Maybe the real problem is that Blizzard refuses to properly scale things. Honestly what's wrong with adding 1,2 hp to a unit, or decreases the mule's mining time by 3 seconds, or slowing the medievac down by 3-4 percent, having chrono last 1 second longer, having larva pop out 2 seconds later.
I understand the concept of drastically changing something to get an overall effect that has on the game in order to balance it initially. Like they are doing to the adept currently. But why can't they fine tune. Fine tune that shit.
There actual might be a good counter point against this argument. I was just throwing it out there.
|
On October 13 2015 10:08 YyapSsap wrote: I do like variety but asymmetry in SC2 has proven time and time again on how it makes the game volatile (the macro boosters make this worse). On paper it sounds intriguing but to me its the source of frustration and whining because at certain parts of the game or scenarios, the other player feels hapless to do anything i.e. feel imba unless knew beforehand.
I guess the difference from its predecessor is that this game takes the difference to a whole new level. I mean in the old game, the races were alot more similiar to one another (even the economy) than SC2 but the differences in gameplay and mechanics didn't get affected too much.
That's because the asymmertry in SC2 is in areas that can not possibly be balanced, unlike most of SC1's design.
|
On October 13 2015 03:03 avilo wrote:
Terran / Protoss losing out on hundreds of resources early game, while Zerg essentially has the same exact economy...yeah, not going to ever work.
The actual reality and math disagree with you there budy Whether you don't bother to actually look at the numbers or you are just raging because you lose to zerg I don't know nor do I really care but FACT IS that statement is wrong
Zerg is getting 1 less larva every single inject. This means that the zerg has one less drone/unit after 1 inject meaning that after 5 injects on 2 hatcheries the zerg has lost 10 larva compared to pre nerf If the zerg over produces units early then they take an even greater hit than pre nerf as they have lesser capability to catch back up
You are clearly just doing something wrong in the matchup if you lose against zerg early game
|
On October 13 2015 01:43 Daizer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote: the equivalent things between races in starcraft are not supposed to be equal. races are supposed to be better at some things and worse at others. the win percentages are all that need to be kept balanced. everything else is supposed to be as unequal as possible, for the sake of variety. it's no good looking at the "macro mechanics" of each race and trying to bring them in line with each other's effectiveness in every situation. that's not how the game is supposed to be balanced or designed If we only look at win perecentages we end up like Hots with horrible design and don't let him get there. Mech Cancer Stalkers 2/2 blink with sentrys Bl/Infestor All had Times where win perecentages where okay even tho everyone knew how broken those are. So yeah balancing after win rates is the fastest way to kill this game. This is the main reason why the game still has problems, balance after win rates cuz pros know everything.
except LotV has different new units to deal with those
|
On October 13 2015 02:12 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:03 TimeSpiral wrote: I'd like to see MULE reverted to HotS, full efficiency.
I'd like to see Chronoboost's interface recerted to HotS, not sure on the efficiency.
Spawn Larva might be okay as it is. I don't know. I know that it can't be 4 larva.
Okay so you want Terran to have full HOTS efficiency mules... but for Protoss and Zerg to both have nerfed versions of their HOTS mechanics?? In what world is that fair??? The same world where he thinks avilo is not clueless.
|
I've been watching as many LotV pro streams as I can lately, and this is the first time I've heard anyone say that Terran got hit the hardest by MM nerfs. In fact, the prevailing sentiment seems to be that bio is actually a bit OP.
I heard someone say that avilo likes to mech, maybe that's why he's feeling this way? maybe mech is underpowered (if anything), and not the mule.
|
almost all zergs struggle verse bio terran atm our production can barely keep up. how exactly is zerg the strongest?
|
United Kingdom20172 Posts
On October 13 2015 11:12 A_Scarecrow wrote: almost all zergs struggle verse bio terran atm our production can barely keep up. how exactly is zerg the strongest?
I have not got as many good games as i'd like since the adept changes, further chrono nerfs and mule boost but it seems to me that terran is in the strongest position they've been in for quite a while with a healthy early and mid-lategame vs protoss.
|
ah teamliquid you never ceases to amaze me thanks for the read keep the hate and balance whine coming. it doesnt matter whats going on your race is underpowered and the rest are OP lol. honestly I stopped caring about whats op and not and just play the game. I have faith in blizzard that they will figure it out and leave it to them. Also playing random helps cause you feel the pain of every race so you cant bitch.Also complaining and bitching does nothing for you beside waste time not imporving.
|
On October 13 2015 11:43 starslayer wrote: ah teamliquid avilo you never ceases to amaze me thanks for the read keep the hate and balance whine coming. it doesnt matter whats going on your race is underpowered and the rest are OP lol. honestly I stopped caring about whats op and not and just play the game. I have faith in blizzard that they will figure it out and leave it to them. Also playing random helps cause you feel the pain of every race so you cant bitch.Also complaining and bitching does nothing for you beside waste time not imporving. Fixed that!
|
The game is in a state of flux. We need not to jump to conclusions. Whatever they do, they really should not revert macro mechanics patch. Leave Zerg at 3 Larvae and tune Chrono and MULE accordingly.
|
Zerg got hit hard with this, not sure he realizes what he's talking about, there is no extra larvae in the current state.
Perhaps he's upset because this nerfed mech the most. Vs. bio, zerg often goes ling/bling/muta which is larvae intensive. Vs mech, they go significantly less larvae intensive units. They also engage less.
This nerf basically hit Avilo's playstyle significantly, because not only does he often mech, he engages very infrequently outside of hellion harass compared to most mech players (doesn't like committing because he finds it to be a gamble, which sometimes it can be). Consequently, Zerg is not stressed for larave and can build it up with minimal trading.
|
On October 13 2015 11:43 starslayer wrote: ah teamliquid you never ceases to amaze me thanks for the read keep the hate and balance whine coming. it doesnt matter whats going on your race is underpowered and the rest are OP lol. honestly I stopped caring about whats op and not and just play the game. I have faith in blizzard that they will figure it out and leave it to them. Also playing random helps cause you feel the pain of every race so you cant bitch.Also complaining and bitching does nothing for you beside waste time not imporving.
My Sentiments right there.
|
On October 13 2015 12:49 FabledIntegral wrote: Perhaps he's upset because this nerfed mech the most Basically this sums up the entire thread.
|
star 2 terran is most reliant on mineral
following this, mechanic play require intense amount of mineral for mechanic unit (viking and siege tank high cost)
hots you could supplement mineral with early command investment (bbyong 4 command) but lotv does not have enough time buffer between opponent powering and making unit to allow for player to reap investment in time; time being more precious resource in lotv
op is player who rely heavily on mechanic play, so it is obvious that opinion stem from perspective of someone who has lost foundation of his play
|
I'd like to hear more pro opinions before anyone takes what this thread says seriously. The boy can only cry wolf so many times.
|
On October 13 2015 13:14 BeStFAN wrote: star 2 terran is most reliant on mineral
following this, mechanic play require intense amount of mineral for mechanic unit (viking and siege tank high cost)
hots you could supplement mineral with early command investment (bbyong 4 command) but lotv does not have enough time buffer between opponent powering and making unit to allow for player to reap investment in time; time being more precious resource in lotv
op is player who rely heavily on mechanic play, so it is obvious that opinion stem from perspective of someone who has lost foundation of his play
This has got to be one of the sillyest comments so far. Mech play is one of the playstyles that is not mineral intensive. That is the reason you build so many supplemental command centers that do not pay dividends until notably later, because you don't actually need those minerals yet. Mech is one of the least mineral intensive playstyles in the game, even the camping style where you mass OC/turrets.
|
Barrack 3 Tech labs, 5 Reactors 800 Minerals per ~27 Second
Factory 1 Reactor 150 Mineral per 40 Second
Starport 1 Reactor 200 Mineral per 42 Second
Factory 3 Tech Lab 450 Mineral per 45 Second
Factory 2 Reactor 400 Mineral per 30 Second
Starport 1 Reactor 300 Mineral per 42 Second
When you include consideration of faster supply need for Siege Tank, meaning more supply cost relative to same time with bionic, and loss of mineral income in gaining vesphene earlier for second and third bases and common scenario of early hellion build up instead of cut at 6 and power for bionic (or no hellion start) it's quite easy to see how important mineral is for mechanic player.
Although veshphene is more important resource as time goes on, it is resource that must be consumed quickly by mechanic player at expense of mineral resources.
|
Consider cost associate with vesphene gas for making factory and continue factory production; until full economy, this is resource that gained at expense of mineral
|
Mules are OP, Mules buy more MMM, MMM does nothing against Ultra -> Game is balanced. Chronoboost has to stay this way, or 16 Worker 4Gate in 2 mins would be a thing.
The only counter to ultras are buildings ATM. With Buildings you can choke the map and use liberators effectively.
|
If mules give the highest income for Terran, but terran has the slowest and least flexible ability to spend it, doesn't that asymmetrically balance, at least conceptually? I really don't think Mules are OP throughout most of the game.
|
On October 13 2015 11:43 starslayer wrote: ah teamliquid you never ceases to amaze me thanks for the read keep the hate and balance whine coming. it doesnt matter whats going on your race is underpowered and the rest are OP lol. honestly I stopped caring about whats op and not and just play the game. I have faith in blizzard that they will figure it out and leave it to them. Also playing random helps cause you feel the pain of every race so you cant bitch.Also complaining and bitching does nothing for you beside waste time not imporving.
I strongly agree with that. TL is supposed to be a serious SC2 site where we can debate properly about our favourite game. Nowadays, it seems that TL is like the b.net forums, half of the threads in the LoTV section are pure balance whine. I simply don't understand why this thread is not closed.
I mean, come on, you know there is no a serious LoTV discussion when you read sentences like: "zerg is the god-tier race" "terran is underperforming", and so forth.
Avilo is the most known balance whiner since WoL times, and he still recieves free chart to post crap on a serious site. Just ban the guy like you guys do with TB.
|
On October 13 2015 22:31 Apoteosis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 11:43 starslayer wrote: ah teamliquid you never ceases to amaze me thanks for the read keep the hate and balance whine coming. it doesnt matter whats going on your race is underpowered and the rest are OP lol. honestly I stopped caring about whats op and not and just play the game. I have faith in blizzard that they will figure it out and leave it to them. Also playing random helps cause you feel the pain of every race so you cant bitch.Also complaining and bitching does nothing for you beside waste time not imporving. I strongly agree with that. TL is supposed to be a serious SC2 site where we can debate properly about our favourite game. Nowadays, it seems that TL is like the b.net forums, half of the threads in the LoTV section are pure balance whine. I simply don't understand why this thread is not closed. I mean, come on, you know there is no a serious LoTV discussion when you read sentences like: "zerg is the god-tier race" "terran is underperforming", and so forth. Avilo is the most known balance whiner since WoL times, and he still recieves free chart to post crap on a serious site. Just ban the guy like you guys do with TB.
I strongly, strongly disagree with this. Have you been to Battle.net lately? It is orders of magnitude worse than TL. It's way--way--beyond the pale.
Something else I don't understand ... this is the beta. Blizzard has specifically asked us for "balance whine". Lol! People are acting like the game is currently balanced. It's not. It won't be for some time. Things are broken, and yes, even though we don't play with professional-level mechanics, imbalanced elements of this game are currently causing wins and losses. That's a fact. And I think many from the HotS era are still in the knee-jerk "balance whine!" mindset. This is a beta. A new game. We're all growing with it.
|
Example #38572935 of why I tune into your stream to watch you scream.
|
On October 13 2015 02:25 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:19 TenMin wrote:On October 13 2015 02:06 Daizer wrote:On October 13 2015 01:49 SC2Angora wrote:On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25 Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push. Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please. Look at top 16 GM It was full of Protoss and Terrans and 2-3 Zergs Its now 6 Terrans, 3 Zergs and the rest Protoss Terran wasn't the weakest at all, if a race had problems then Zerg is. And the trend is that all terrans are climbing, if it keeps like this we just have terrans in a week. This is true. Sadly Blizzard listens to peoples complaints like this and it ends up ruining the game... All of the races got nerfed, and it's arguable which race got it worst. But to act like Terran are incapable of producing just because the current Mule nerf (which after last patch is not really that bad at all) is silly. Also to act like Mules are only to "keep up" is silly.... In many situations Mules actually allow terran to not simply "keep up" but also OUTPRODUCE the other races. Mules are still CRAZY strong... just look at the math of how much a single mule gives you!! Even compared to the HotS version it is still a huge benefit!! This thread is littered with Terran bias. Like how "Zerg is a god tier race" and "they can drone exponentially"... If Zerg was god tier than how come they have had the worst showing in lotv GM for months? And yes they can drone exponentially but ONLY if they sacrifice production elsewhere, any time a Zerg is able to drone exponentially they are giving the opponent a window of vulnerability. This should open happen if you are being passive and letting them drone, or if they have gained the advantage on the battlefield already. Find a training partner and play some straight macro games, and look at the resource graphs at the end. If the Terran player is on point with mules the production is still insane... and is AHEAD OF ZERG for a sizable portion of the game! So untrue. If they actually listened they would have not reverted removal of macro boosters.
|
we need a avilo for each race and see them fight off each other. that would be interesting
|
lol and this is partly why beta is not getting any good changes, people even here on TL blind bashing my post instead of reading the content and understanding that the nerfs they did to macro mechanics are not equal.
Zerg will reach 50-60 drones in games, and then be essentially playing the exact game vs T/P with nerfed macro mechanics.
Maybe you do not see that every game right now because the game is newer and people are doing really suboptimal builds or games end fast. But as games go longer, WHICH THEY WILL, you'll see how right i am and that i actually analyze the game and the impact the changes have on the game down the line.
The macro changes and nerfs to mules/chrono impact the game a lot. P is less affected in late game because chrono will still be useful, but is affected early game to reach their desired worker count.
T is impacted the worst in early and late game because you're simply getting less money than you previously were due to nerfed mules.
Zerg is virtually not impacted because most of the time pre-nerf you would have enough larva anyways, and now you are playing vs nerfed T/P essentially.
People should objectively look at the changes rather than bash me, maybe that would lead to good discussion about them. Otherwise have fun with the mass liberators/carriers/brood viper that is taking over the beta (which by the way i have another entire post in the making about).
|
You are blind due to your own perception of how the game should be played. Many, if not even most games get decided before or right around 3base saturations are being reached through various cheeses, timings and allins. Large tempo advantages are being achieved in this phase. A nerf to something like larva production, as well as chronoboost or mules all affects the races differently in that phase. For example, the larva nerf makes it harder to get to 4saturated bases with 70-80drones before parade pushing bio-players force you to spend all your larva into never ending unit production of zerglings and banelings.
It's annoying to say the least, you found your own ways to play the game which is nice for you, but not only are you failing at even basic comprehensions of way more popular ways to play the game, you are pretending that your ways are ultimately massively superior to everyone elses.
Most annoyingly you keep on contradicting yourself all the time. At the one moment you are close to tears because "aggression is way too strong in this game", at the next moment you write a thread like this one pretending that every game starts with everyone having a finished setup and that setup on top of that favors your opponent naturally.
Edit: I actually agree on the down the line comment, but I think that has to do with parasitic bomb and ultras moreso than anything else.
|
On October 14 2015 01:10 avilo wrote: lol and this is partly why beta is not getting any good changes, people even here on TL blind bashing my post instead of reading the content and understanding that the nerfs they did to macro mechanics are not equal.
Zerg will reach 50-60 drones in games, and then be essentially playing the exact game vs T/P with nerfed macro mechanics.
Maybe you do not see that every game right now because the game is newer and people are doing really suboptimal builds or games end fast. But as games go longer, WHICH THEY WILL, you'll see how right i am and that i actually analyze the game and the impact the changes have on the game down the line.
The macro changes and nerfs to mules/chrono impact the game a lot. P is less affected in late game because chrono will still be useful, but is affected early game to reach their desired worker count.
T is impacted the worst in early and late game because you're simply getting less money than you previously were due to nerfed mules.
Zerg is virtually not impacted because most of the time pre-nerf you would have enough larva anyways, and now you are playing vs nerfed T/P essentially.
People should objectively look at the changes rather than bash me, maybe that would lead to good discussion about them. Otherwise have fun with the mass liberators/carriers/brood viper that is taking over the beta (which by the way i have another entire post in the making about). And yet again you fail to even respond to constructive arguments. You are the one bashing something blindly. You are the one who isn't looking objectivly at the changes. Your assumptions mostly are pulled out of your butt or are based of your own expierences.
That you fail to reflect upon yourself has never changed, since WoL beta . Maybe you should start to at least acknowledge that other people have good input too.
you'll see how right i am and that i actually analyze the game and the impact the changes have on the game down the line. Put your crystal ball away, get yourself some tissues, and start to be constructive.
#patchavilo
|
On October 14 2015 01:10 avilo wrote: Zerg is virtually not impacted because most of the time pre-nerf you would have enough larva anyways
The first time it was funny, now it's kind of pathetic. You said you "analyze the game", do you understand that inject nerf slows the drone production ?
|
bluQ do you realize how much more constructive avilo's post that you quoted is and that you criticizing exactly what you are doing yourself and ending your "argument" in "start to be constructive" can only be viewed as ironic? I mean maybe I'm completely missing why avilo is obviously very wrong but so far he seems pretty right no? if you are not pointing out where he is going wrong in his argument how can he know about what he should respond to build a more detailed constructive answer? How is basing assumptions or arguments on own experience a bad way to construct an opinion?????
|
On October 14 2015 01:56 Big J wrote: You are blind due to your own perception of how the game should be played. Many, if not even most games get decided before or right around 3base saturations are being reached through various cheeses, timings and allins. Large tempo advantages are being achieved in this phase. A nerf to something like larva production, as well as chronoboost or mules all affects the races differently in that phase. For example, the larva nerf makes it harder to get to 4saturated bases with 70-80drones before parade pushing bio-players force you to spend all your larva into never ending unit production of zerglings and banelings.
It's annoying to say the least, you found your own ways to play the game which is nice for you, but not only are you failing at even basic comprehensions of way more popular ways to play the game, you are pretending that your ways are ultimately massively superior to everyone elses.
Most annoyingly you keep on contradicting yourself all the time. At the one moment you are close to tears because "aggression is way too strong in this game", at the next moment you write a thread like this one pretending that every game starts with everyone having a finished setup and that setup on top of that favors your opponent naturally.
Edit: I actually agree on the down the line comment, but I think that has to do with parasitic bomb and ultras moreso than anything else.
Do you have any data to support this claim? It just seems very anecdotal (which is fine, for what it is). But I'm dubious about the veracity of that one.
I think he's making an observation about the economy after desired worker count is reach, which describes so-called "macro games". Or, rather, it describes a specific game state. I don't think it describes "a way the game should be played."
I don't know Avilo, and can't speak for him, but I'd guess he's completely fine with plays (what our community calls cheese). Wouldn't it be hilarious if in the NFL the commentators referred to a fake handoff or a fake field goal attempt as cheese? Lol. Anyway ...
Avilo has a playstyle, and a personality that is part of his brand, but I don't think that's what he is talking about here (though his OP is hilariously in his brand, and done rather well, imo).
P.S. Parasitic bomb and Ultras are just insane, atm. But so is the Carrier. And so is the Liberator.
On October 14 2015 01:10 avilo wrote: lol and this is partly why beta is not getting any good changes, people even here on TL blind bashing my post instead of reading the content and understanding that the nerfs they did to macro mechanics are not equal.
Zerg will reach 50-60 drones in games, and then be essentially playing the exact game vs T/P with nerfed macro mechanics.
Maybe you do not see that every game right now because the game is newer and people are doing really suboptimal builds or games end fast. But as games go longer, WHICH THEY WILL, you'll see how right i am and that i actually analyze the game and the impact the changes have on the game down the line.
The macro changes and nerfs to mules/chrono impact the game a lot. P is less affected in late game because chrono will still be useful, but is affected early game to reach their desired worker count.
T is impacted the worst in early and late game because you're simply getting less money than you previously were due to nerfed mules.
Zerg is virtually not impacted because most of the time pre-nerf you would have enough larva anyways, and now you are playing vs nerfed T/P essentially.
People should objectively look at the changes rather than bash me, maybe that would lead to good discussion about them. Otherwise have fun with the mass liberators/carriers/brood viper that is taking over the beta (which by the way i have another entire post in the making about).
The price of fame, man. The price of fame.
Anyway, onto the substance of what you're saying. Within the context of a macro game--which is what I think you're getting at--I think you are making some substantive remarks.
(1) A nerf to Spawn Larva does not directly affect the income a Zerg is able to produce. It affects the time it takes to reach the desired worker count (maybe). Assuming each of three hatches get a Queen as quickly as possible, and they all three Spawn Larva efficiently, is it even possible to spend every bit of larva? I'm thinking probably not, but I don't know. Zerg is not my main. But I think this is the point you're making. Zerg will still get their economy up--maybe slightly slower--but then once it is up, it's at the exact same level as pre-nerf.
(2) Chronoboost is similar to Spawn Larva in that is does not directly affect income, but rather, the time it takes to reach the desired worker count. And, because of certain Protoss builds, CB will not always be used on workers. But, once Protoss has the desired number of workers, their economy is exactly the same as pre-nerf.
(3) A nerf to MULE directly nerfs the amount of income Terran is able to produce. It also affects the time it takes to reach the desired number of workers (less minerals to build command centers while not dying). Once Terran has achieved the desired number of workers, his economy is weaker than pre-nerf because the MULE is less efficient. Maybe this is the point of the nerf, I don't know, but I think this is the main drive of your entire post. And I think it's a demonstrable fact--whether or not it's good, or balanced is a different argument.
|
On October 14 2015 03:07 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 01:56 Big J wrote: You are blind due to your own perception of how the game should be played. Many, if not even most games get decided before or right around 3base saturations are being reached through various cheeses, timings and allins. Large tempo advantages are being achieved in this phase. A nerf to something like larva production, as well as chronoboost or mules all affects the races differently in that phase. For example, the larva nerf makes it harder to get to 4saturated bases with 70-80drones before parade pushing bio-players force you to spend all your larva into never ending unit production of zerglings and banelings.
It's annoying to say the least, you found your own ways to play the game which is nice for you, but not only are you failing at even basic comprehensions of way more popular ways to play the game, you are pretending that your ways are ultimately massively superior to everyone elses.
Most annoyingly you keep on contradicting yourself all the time. At the one moment you are close to tears because "aggression is way too strong in this game", at the next moment you write a thread like this one pretending that every game starts with everyone having a finished setup and that setup on top of that favors your opponent naturally.
Edit: I actually agree on the down the line comment, but I think that has to do with parasitic bomb and ultras moreso than anything else. Do you have any data to support this claim? It just seems very anecdotal (which is fine, for what it is). But I'm dubious about the veracity of that one. I think he's making an observation about the economy after desired worker count is reach, which describes so-called "macro games". Or, rather, it describes a specific game state. I don't think it describes "a way the game should be played." I don't know Avilo, and can't speak for him, but I'd guess he's completely fine with plays (what our community calls cheese). Wouldn't it be hilarious if in the NFL the commentators referred to a fake handoff or a fake field goal attempt as cheese? Lol. Anyway ... Avilo has a playstyle, and a personality that is part of his brand, but I don't think that's what he is talking about here (though his OP is hilariously in his brand, and done rather well, imo). P.S. Parasitic bomb and Ultras are just insane, atm. But so is the Carrier. And so is the Liberator.
I doubt you will find statistical evidence on when games take decisive leads and turns.
|
On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote: the equivalent things between races in starcraft are not supposed to be equal. races are supposed to be better at some things and worse at others. the win percentages are all that need to be kept balanced. everything else is supposed to be as unequal as possible, for the sake of variety. it's no good looking at the "macro mechanics" of each race and trying to bring them in line with each other's effectiveness in every situation. that's not how the game is supposed to be balanced or designed Reading this was a breath of fresh air in an ocean of "your race is more OP than mine!" posts
|
On October 14 2015 00:15 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:25 Spyridon wrote:On October 13 2015 02:19 TenMin wrote:On October 13 2015 02:06 Daizer wrote:On October 13 2015 01:49 SC2Angora wrote:On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25 Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push. Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please. Look at top 16 GM It was full of Protoss and Terrans and 2-3 Zergs Its now 6 Terrans, 3 Zergs and the rest Protoss Terran wasn't the weakest at all, if a race had problems then Zerg is. And the trend is that all terrans are climbing, if it keeps like this we just have terrans in a week. This is true. Sadly Blizzard listens to peoples complaints like this and it ends up ruining the game... All of the races got nerfed, and it's arguable which race got it worst. But to act like Terran are incapable of producing just because the current Mule nerf (which after last patch is not really that bad at all) is silly. Also to act like Mules are only to "keep up" is silly.... In many situations Mules actually allow terran to not simply "keep up" but also OUTPRODUCE the other races. Mules are still CRAZY strong... just look at the math of how much a single mule gives you!! Even compared to the HotS version it is still a huge benefit!! This thread is littered with Terran bias. Like how "Zerg is a god tier race" and "they can drone exponentially"... If Zerg was god tier than how come they have had the worst showing in lotv GM for months? And yes they can drone exponentially but ONLY if they sacrifice production elsewhere, any time a Zerg is able to drone exponentially they are giving the opponent a window of vulnerability. This should open happen if you are being passive and letting them drone, or if they have gained the advantage on the battlefield already. Find a training partner and play some straight macro games, and look at the resource graphs at the end. If the Terran player is on point with mules the production is still insane... and is AHEAD OF ZERG for a sizable portion of the game! So untrue. If they actually listened they would have not reverted removal of macro boosters.
I completely agree that if they listened to the entire community they would not have removed them.
But they listen to complaints such as this one, that is the problem.
If it allows them to make launch day with less work, they will QUICKLY revert.
|
are they on a balance nightmare right now that the game being so unstable and inconsistent, the slightest change they make tends to be the cause for one race to suddenly dominate?
|
On October 14 2015 04:02 Spyridon wrote: I completely agree that if they listened to the entire community they would not have removed them.
If they listened to the community the game would never be released, ever. It would be a continuous quagmire of constant posturing, politics, and bickering.
On October 14 2015 04:02 Spyridon wrote: But they listen to complaints such as this one, that is the problem.
Translation: But they appear to have sided with the camp I disagree with.
On October 14 2015 04:02 Spyridon wrote: If it allows them to make launch day with less work, they will QUICKLY revert.
What? Lol.
|
I do believe people need to be a bit less result oriented on small sample size of games and give some more time to each change, it takes time for the meta to settle, people are testing builds out, execution is far from flawless from either side, this takes time
also I do feel that avilo is a bit too quick to jump on conclusion, based on some games I played vs him his view of balance seemed completely off after every one of his losses
|
On October 14 2015 04:25 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 04:02 Spyridon wrote: I completely agree that if they listened to the entire community they would not have removed them.
If they listened to the community the game would never be released, ever. It would be a continuous quagmire of constant posturing, politics, and bickering. Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 04:02 Spyridon wrote: But they listen to complaints such as this one, that is the problem.
Translation: But they appear to have sided with the camp I disagree with. Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 04:02 Spyridon wrote: If it allows them to make launch day with less work, they will QUICKLY revert. What? Lol.
1) The posturing, politics, and bickering we are having right now is mostly a direct result of how they handled the last couple months of beta. Complete turn-around from the direction they were working towards the entire time, in a rush to get the game ready for release date, AFTER asking users for feedback.
2) Wrong. Correct Translation: They appear to have sided with the vocal minority that has a (well-deserved) reputation for overreacting and spewing bold statements that have been proven as false over the last 5 years. And they are still doing the same thing.
3) Look at their goals and direction at the beginning of beta. Look at their requests for feedback. Look to mid september when they were saying they were pleased with this direction. Then look at the complete switch within 3 days of the release date announcement. Then everything got reverted. Then they claimed it was because of "perceptions in the community". Then a whopping 80% of the polls disagreed with their patch.
This showed us without a doubt that our feedback really does not matter. They listen to a minority of people's PERCEPTION (not FACTS) and use it to justify reverting changes. Then when the majority of the player base is giving feedback pleading with them, peoples perception no longer matters. The common denominator? It will be easier to re balance the game for launch day in all of these scenarios.
That's all that matters to them right now. Getting the game ready for the (extremely rushed) release. So much that they completely scrapped their direction of beta, and proved themselves as dishonest (like the claims that this beta would run "far longer" than any of Blizzards other betas?), and even their Blizzard Store page stated the game was going to be released by March 2016. Then all of a sudden, release date pushed up, and beta changes start getting scrapped...
As I said, if it will allow them to get to launch day with less work, they will revert.
|
Just adding one important point to the table. The chrono nerf has another major impact - last time Tech Switches are much harder to do. You might answer "scout", but when you're against a late game zerg, 4k - 4k, with all tech available you need to react on time, not in advance.
|
The 3 larvae actually put zerg somewhat behind protoss throughout the early game but lategame zerg is unaffected so I can see that complaint. Then again I never liked the MULE situation lategame and many think it needs help. But I prefer the HOTS mechanics or some form of them, more variety in the openings and already balanced I don't see such a need to screw with it. I much prefered more focus on the units themselves and different redesigns the community has been asking for which can still be tested
|
On October 14 2015 01:10 avilo wrote: lol and this is partly why beta is not getting any good changes, people even here on TL blind bashing my post instead of reading the content and understanding that the nerfs they did to macro mechanics are not equal.
Zerg will reach 50-60 drones in games, and then be essentially playing the exact game vs T/P with nerfed macro mechanics.
Maybe you do not see that every game right now because the game is newer and people are doing really suboptimal builds or games end fast. But as games go longer, WHICH THEY WILL, you'll see how right i am and that i actually analyze the game and the impact the changes have on the game down the line.
The macro changes and nerfs to mules/chrono impact the game a lot. P is less affected in late game because chrono will still be useful, but is affected early game to reach their desired worker count.
T is impacted the worst in early and late game because you're simply getting less money than you previously were due to nerfed mules.
Zerg is virtually not impacted because most of the time pre-nerf you would have enough larva anyways, and now you are playing vs nerfed T/P essentially.
People should objectively look at the changes rather than bash me, maybe that would lead to good discussion about them. Otherwise have fun with the mass liberators/carriers/brood viper that is taking over the beta (which by the way i have another entire post in the making about). im not bashing u at all, just in my experience terran is so dam hard to kill atm. the bio lib late game comp is pretty much complete bs. i admit im only low masters and u play higher level but every1 has a different view on this game. maybe if we can see some examples might help.
|
I'm pretty sure there is always a Terran in your game. Seems pretty unbalanced to me..
|
Avilo isn't even responding anymore, it's a persona to get people fired up god damn it.
|
On October 14 2015 01:10 avilo wrote: lol and this is partly why beta is not getting any good changes, people even here on TL blind bashing my post instead of reading the content and understanding that the nerfs they did to macro mechanics are not equal.
Zerg will reach 50-60 drones in games, and then be essentially playing the exact game vs T/P with nerfed macro mechanics.
Maybe you do not see that every game right now because the game is newer and people are doing really suboptimal builds or games end fast. But as games go longer, WHICH THEY WILL, you'll see how right i am and that i actually analyze the game and the impact the changes have on the game down the line.
The macro changes and nerfs to mules/chrono impact the game a lot. P is less affected in late game because chrono will still be useful, but is affected early game to reach their desired worker count.
T is impacted the worst in early and late game because you're simply getting less money than you previously were due to nerfed mules.
Zerg is virtually not impacted because most of the time pre-nerf you would have enough larva anyways, and now you are playing vs nerfed T/P essentially.
People should objectively look at the changes rather than bash me, maybe that would lead to good discussion about them. Otherwise have fun with the mass liberators/carriers/brood viper that is taking over the beta (which by the way i have another entire post in the making about). How can you actually be this stupid? Having less larvae pretty obviously means less drone production. You think zerg just always has enough larvae to make drones magically? People actually use their larvae...
About the unit massing; liberators are broken, they're too good at too many things, but massing them is a bad idea and doesn't work, as you've shown if I recall. Mass carrier really isn't that good from my experience, you just have to control the amount of them early, or have enough money to keep remaxing viper corruptor. Brood viper doesn't seem broken, ultras seem to be the problem unit right now for zerg.
|
On October 13 2015 02:25 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:19 TenMin wrote:On October 13 2015 02:06 Daizer wrote:On October 13 2015 01:49 SC2Angora wrote:On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25 Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push. Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please. Look at top 16 GM It was full of Protoss and Terrans and 2-3 Zergs Its now 6 Terrans, 3 Zergs and the rest Protoss Terran wasn't the weakest at all, if a race had problems then Zerg is. And the trend is that all terrans are climbing, if it keeps like this we just have terrans in a week. This is true. Sadly Blizzard listens to peoples complaints like this and it ends up ruining the game... All of the races got nerfed, and it's arguable which race got it worst. But to act like Terran are incapable of producing just because the current Mule nerf (which after last patch is not really that bad at all) is silly. Also to act like Mules are only to "keep up" is silly.... In many situations Mules actually allow terran to not simply "keep up" but also OUTPRODUCE the other races. Mules are still CRAZY strong... just look at the math of how much a single mule gives you!! Even compared to the HotS version it is still a huge benefit!! This thread is littered with Terran bias. Like how "Zerg is a god tier race" and "they can drone exponentially"... If Zerg was god tier than how come they have had the worst showing in lotv GM for months? And yes they can drone exponentially but ONLY if they sacrifice production elsewhere, any time a Zerg is able to drone exponentially they are giving the opponent a window of vulnerability. This should open happen if you are being passive and letting them drone, or if they have gained the advantage on the battlefield already. Find a training partner and play some straight macro games, and look at the resource graphs at the end. If the Terran player is on point with mules the production is still insane... and is AHEAD OF ZERG for a sizable portion of the game!
As evaluated, now we have 8 terrans at top 16, 4 of each other race. Which is very fast change for a weeks time. And trend is still pointing to terrans doing heavy climbs as other races doing very modestly at most. This is pre balace update oct 16, where toss most useful lategame unit v other races, the carrier, got nerfed. Terran got further buffs. It puts an unpleasent scenario for the game competivity in the near future. This shows that once again blizz failed to pinpoint the unbalances, and adressed wrong issues. This type of behaviour just puts the game in a worse state than before.
At the moment ,and since some patches ago, it seems like there is some heavy negative productivity at development office. It worryies me, so close to lauch.
|
On October 17 2015 13:09 TenMin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:25 Spyridon wrote:On October 13 2015 02:19 TenMin wrote:On October 13 2015 02:06 Daizer wrote:On October 13 2015 01:49 SC2Angora wrote:On October 13 2015 01:10 Daizer wrote: Right now Mule is OP, 18% less then Hots while Zerg has 25% and Toss more then 25% nerfs.
You assume that everyone gets to late game and 60-80 workers.
Yet Zerg dies now to bio timings easily, Protoss to.
We can agree on something, they need to revert the nerfed MM patch.
4 larva 18% Chrono Mule
Yes they need to fix late game mule but that is easy with just giving the mule Hammer certain range like 25 Just look some stream and you will see so many protoss and zerg who have incredible strong timing to Terran too and can hold easilly the Terran Bio push. Terran was under the grave since the start of the beta, just incredibly weak with all theses macro change, this was indubitably the race the more affected by theses nerf, now the race become playable at a decent level for the first time since forever, so yes after these month of free win against terran that cant seem hard to play against them again but just open the eyes please. Look at top 16 GM It was full of Protoss and Terrans and 2-3 Zergs Its now 6 Terrans, 3 Zergs and the rest Protoss Terran wasn't the weakest at all, if a race had problems then Zerg is. And the trend is that all terrans are climbing, if it keeps like this we just have terrans in a week. This is true. Sadly Blizzard listens to peoples complaints like this and it ends up ruining the game... All of the races got nerfed, and it's arguable which race got it worst. But to act like Terran are incapable of producing just because the current Mule nerf (which after last patch is not really that bad at all) is silly. Also to act like Mules are only to "keep up" is silly.... In many situations Mules actually allow terran to not simply "keep up" but also OUTPRODUCE the other races. Mules are still CRAZY strong... just look at the math of how much a single mule gives you!! Even compared to the HotS version it is still a huge benefit!! This thread is littered with Terran bias. Like how "Zerg is a god tier race" and "they can drone exponentially"... If Zerg was god tier than how come they have had the worst showing in lotv GM for months? And yes they can drone exponentially but ONLY if they sacrifice production elsewhere, any time a Zerg is able to drone exponentially they are giving the opponent a window of vulnerability. This should open happen if you are being passive and letting them drone, or if they have gained the advantage on the battlefield already. Find a training partner and play some straight macro games, and look at the resource graphs at the end. If the Terran player is on point with mules the production is still insane... and is AHEAD OF ZERG for a sizable portion of the game! As evaluated, now we have 8 terrans at top 16, 4 of each other race. Which is very fast change for a weeks time. And trend is still pointing to terrans doing heavy climbs as other races doing very modestly at most. This is pre balace update oct 16, where toss most useful lategame unit v other races, the carrier, got nerfed. Terran got further buffs. It puts an unpleasent scenario for the game competivity in the near future. This shows that once again blizz failed to pinpoint the unbalances, and adressed wrong issues. This type of behaviour just puts the game in a worse state than before. At the moment ,and since some patches ago, it seems like there is some heavy negative productivity at development office. It worryies me, so close to lauch.
I agree about the productivity. Seems like something strange really is going on. Some of the things said during the whole MM reverting were pretty blatant contradictions. They said beta would be "much longer" than earlier betas and it was the same length as hots, store page said games going to be released by march 2016 then its suddenly at blizzcon, and then now overwatch gets a random beta announcement (which is very unlike Blizzard, the company who Announces Announcements like no other), and for some reason the beta is starting weeks BEFORE blizzcon rather than being marketed there...
None of it really makes sense. And Blizzards marketing team is is usually insanely competitive. This is different...
|
|
|
|