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make the swarm host a real swarm host:
it's a support unit that can insta/fast spawn units (with a cooldown to be tweaked), either in place or spawns larvae with faster unit morphing time.
per cooldown it can spawn as many units as an overlord can carry: 8 lings or 4 roaches or 1 ultra (tech tree provided), you get the point. those are normal units that cost the normal min/gas and supply. insta/fast spawn of banes/lurkers/broods would be imba so only maybe with a super expensive late game upgrade and increase of sh supply.
sh takes up supply (maybe tweak supply cost) but opens the option of very swarmy swarm because of the fast reinforcing potential even if creep doesn't cover the whole map.
lots of options i think.
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I dont mind the idea of Swarm hosts creating larva, Make them mobile larva makers, but keep the number low 3-4 so that if you want to invest in them you have to take a chunk of your army into these spawners.
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So a zerg version of a warp prism and races being less unique? Just make it spawn scourges or scrap the unit altogether, although it would be a shame cause it at least looks coolest of the expansions zerg units
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I implemented this in a mod some time before. The Swarm Host would be a mobile hatchery. When it burrowed it would generate creep and continuously spawn larva. However, I ended up not liking it very much.
What I would prefer actually is to give the Swarm Host the Spawn Infested Terran ability from the Infestor (it could spawn Locusts instead of Infested Terrans though). The ability would cost 25 Energy, the SH has 200 max energy and the Locusts spawned that way were not very mobile but could attack both ground and air. The infestor would get a better ability instead. The SH would also get burrow movement.
Instead of having a fixed wait time you would now have an energy pool that you can use at any point in time. You could decide to throw them all out at once but then your SH becomes pretty much useless for several seconds, or you could decide to drop them bit by bit. You could keep them at a base defensively or you could use them for harassment (with their burrow move) or you can use them in your army for additional firepower during an engagement. Much better then the regular SH in my opinion.
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and then give them neural parasite
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This actually sounds really interesting to me. It would give a use to Overlord Creep as well, unless you wanted to force the Swarm Host to use it on the normal Creep spread or have its own Creep ability.
You could also make it into a Larvae transport, where it can hold X Larvae and drop them off and/or lay eggs (still retaining a slow to moderate Larvae production rate within itself until full).
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An idea including "Swarm Host" cannot be a stupid idea.
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Neat concept, only other way I can think of to make them usable again is to revert the retcon, significantly increase locust health or armor and significantly reduce their damage so they essentially create swarms of ranged broodlings. That way you can still attrition but you can't essentially play mech turtle style as zerg as they won't deal enough damage to win the game on their own.
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I like this more than blizzard's idea. If you expand on the mechanic of larve, it becomes more than just an inject mechanic. Then it brings out the unique aspect of the race, like warp for protoss.
Nice idea
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Give them back their siege role, make them burrow to use locusts, can also keep flying option for locusts, but make them use energy and make them regenerate energy, for example, faster on creep. So it has defensive siege role.
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I had the same idea once, never got around to actually suggest it. I feel it really fits what the name Swarm Host suggests.
On October 17 2015 01:45 Nazara wrote: So a zerg version of a warp prism and races being less unique? They're similar, but different in some key elements: - Swarm Hosts are slow off creep but reasonably fast on creep - this means stuff like Prism harass will not be possible (especially into the high ground, e.g. main base) - their role will probably end up being more like following the army to reduce reinforcement time, making them more like a mobile forward Pylon - larvae per SH will be limited i.e. you cannot easily reinforce as many units as Pylon/Prism warp ins, or you have to invest a lot more otherwise useless supply - SHs can burrow which could enable some interesting play
To which degree these factors apply of course depends on the overall design (how fast are larvae generated? Is the movements speed changed? Can larvae hatch while burrowed?), but I think it's easily differentiated from the WP.
Units being similar in general is not a problem in SC2, because some twists to the concept can already make them very different in application. A larva carrying SH would be roughly as similar to a Warp Prism as a Warp Prism is to a Medivac.
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Maybe it should invite other Zergs over to dinner, serve them drinks and snacks and whatnot, maybe play some funky music and break out the party games for afterwards. That'd be a true Swarm Host imo.
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On October 11 2015 11:13 Zode wrote: I'd be more interested in a swarm host that had an average basic attack but who's ability would spawn larva, whether it be time based or energy based I don't know. Having larva spawn on the front lines for reinforcements would be cool, probably balanceable idk.
Somewhat same idea. SH is jut bad any way you slice it.
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On October 19 2015 00:32 BEARDiaguz wrote: Maybe it should invite other Zergs over to dinner, serve them drinks and snacks and whatnot, maybe play some funky music and break out the party games for afterwards. That'd be a true Swarm Host imo.
All respect to you from me as a Root fan but really the SH hammer nerf its not funny
Its very pathetic that they didn't learn anything from nerfing Infestor.
People complain about unit
Blizz okay will nerf it to useless status, job done
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People were right to complain about the Swarm Host's design though, it forced drawn out games that threatened to affect tournaments. You really can't have games go on for that long on a regular basis. I supported Blizzards move to cut that bullshit out
Problem is, I dunno how you can make a Swarm Host that doesn't kinda suck. By it's nature it's about incremental advantage over a long period of time and LotV does not encourage that style of play. I dunno what you're supposed to do with it really, and I feel it's going to remain a very niche unit for enthusiasts, kinda like Nukes or the Colossus.
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On October 19 2015 01:45 BEARDiaguz wrote: People were right to complain about the Swarm Host's design though, it forced drawn out games that threatened to affect tournaments. You really can't have games go on for that long on a regular basis. I supported Blizzards move to cut that bullshit out
Problem is, I dunno how you can make a Swarm Host that doesn't kinda suck. By it's nature it's about incremental advantage over a long period of time and LotV does not encourage that style of play. I dunno what you're supposed to do with it really, and I feel it's going to remain a very niche unit for enthusiasts, kinda like Nukes or the Colossus. As I said above: Give it an ability like the infested terrans from infestor. The Infestor was a fun unit in WoL with burrowed infestors running into bases, dropping mass IT and then hiding somewhere or getting out quickly. IT are so much better then Locusts because they are more flexible and reliable. You can pool energy for one strong attack or you can throw them out every now and then for several weaker attacks. They can also be countered with feedback or EMP. It would be a fun harrassment unit based on burrow movement and energy.
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On October 19 2015 01:45 BEARDiaguz wrote: People were right to complain about the Swarm Host's design though, it forced drawn out games that threatened to affect tournaments. You really can't have games go on for that long on a regular basis. I supported Blizzards move to cut that bullshit out
Problem is, I dunno how you can make a Swarm Host that doesn't kinda suck. By it's nature it's about incremental advantage over a long period of time and LotV does not encourage that style of play. I dunno what you're supposed to do with it really, and I feel it's going to remain a very niche unit for enthusiasts, kinda like Nukes or the Colossus.
It was Mech, not SH that did that.
Now in Hots you must beat the terran before mass ravens
SH was the only answer.
LotV would have fixed SH without the need of changeing the design
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But turtle mech got nerfed too with the Raven PDD thing, which was also a sensible change. HotS Terran mech isn't unbeatable, even at the highest level the games are often really close, and even then it's rarely a 2 hour long super drawn out snorefest.
And what about ZvZ and ZvP? Was it the Raven's fault that ZvP Swarm hosts got so stalematey?
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On October 19 2015 04:13 BEARDiaguz wrote: But turtle mech got nerfed too with the Raven PDD thing, which was also a sensible change. HotS Terran mech isn't unbeatable, even at the highest level the games are often really close, and even then it's rarely a 2 hour long super drawn out snorefest.
And what about ZvZ and ZvP? Was it the Raven's fault that ZvP Swarm hosts got so stalematey?
Mech games still take to long, even David Kim pointed that out, when he released the balanced test maps even tho he didn't update the game do to Blizzcon.
Even tho its not unbeatable its still a dont let them get there strategy, basically Bl/Infestor except it takes longer
That was my point Ravens and SH could have remained the same for LotV, now both are niche, SH being more useless then niche.
ZvZ Sh was long gone
ZvP wasn't snore fest, in fact after the SH nerf we saw only dumb 2/2 stalkers sentry all in
So much strategy. When SH allowed us to see late game Zerg vs Protoss, its much better to see Protoss all in with the same mass stalkers BS
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This unit is to costly and the cooldown is way to big.
60 sec is ridiculous
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I'd like to see the Swarm Host just be a mobile 'Dark Swarm' generator. Like a permanent cloud of insects that follow the host around and provide cover for units underneath, like the Defiler ability in BW. Only it doesn't cost any energy, is always on by default, and is the only ability or attack the SH has.
If I recall correctly, the BW Dark Swarm protected units underneath it from splash damage, though direct hits still did damage. I guess give the SH some beefy armor to resist being focused down, maybe tweak its movement speed to keep up with a ground army, and also have the ability work when the SH is burrowed (though the swarm couldn't be moved around then obviously).
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On October 20 2015 05:30 ElMeanYo wrote: I'd like to see the Swarm Host just be a mobile 'Dark Swarm' generator. Like a permanent cloud of insects that follow the host around and provide cover for units underneath, like the Defiler ability in BW. Only it doesn't cost any energy, is always on by default, and is the only ability or attack the SH has.
If I recall correctly, the BW Dark Swarm protected units underneath it from splash damage, though direct hits still did damage. I guess give the SH some beefy armor to resist being focused down, maybe tweak its movement speed to keep up with a ground army, and also have the ability work when the SH is burrowed (though then the swarm couldn't be moved around then obviously).
BW dark swarm offset ranged attacks by 1 box so that only ranged splash(e.g. sieged tank's splash) and line(firebat) can hit. Melee attack will always hit and direct range attacks (e.g. Marine, dragoon, Sieged tank's non-splash actual attack) will always miss.
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On October 20 2015 05:41 spritzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 05:30 ElMeanYo wrote: I'd like to see the Swarm Host just be a mobile 'Dark Swarm' generator. Like a permanent cloud of insects that follow the host around and provide cover for units underneath, like the Defiler ability in BW. Only it doesn't cost any energy, is always on by default, and is the only ability or attack the SH has.
If I recall correctly, the BW Dark Swarm protected units underneath it from splash damage, though direct hits still did damage. I guess give the SH some beefy armor to resist being focused down, maybe tweak its movement speed to keep up with a ground army, and also have the ability work when the SH is burrowed (though then the swarm couldn't be moved around then obviously). BW dark swarm offset ranged attacks by 1 box so that only ranged splash(e.g. sieged tank's splash) and line(firebat) can hit. Melee attack will always hit and direct range attacks (e.g. Marine, dragoon, Sieged tank's non-splash actual attack) will always miss.
Thanks for that, I couldn't remember. So yea, basically the SH as a mobile DarkSwarm generator, working like BW DarkSwarm.
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On October 20 2015 05:43 ElMeanYo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 05:41 spritzz wrote:On October 20 2015 05:30 ElMeanYo wrote: I'd like to see the Swarm Host just be a mobile 'Dark Swarm' generator. Like a permanent cloud of insects that follow the host around and provide cover for units underneath, like the Defiler ability in BW. Only it doesn't cost any energy, is always on by default, and is the only ability or attack the SH has.
If I recall correctly, the BW Dark Swarm protected units underneath it from splash damage, though direct hits still did damage. I guess give the SH some beefy armor to resist being focused down, maybe tweak its movement speed to keep up with a ground army, and also have the ability work when the SH is burrowed (though then the swarm couldn't be moved around then obviously). BW dark swarm offset ranged attacks by 1 box so that only ranged splash(e.g. sieged tank's splash) and line(firebat) can hit. Melee attack will always hit and direct range attacks (e.g. Marine, dragoon, Sieged tank's non-splash actual attack) will always miss. Thanks for that, I couldn't remember. So yea, basically the SH as a mobile DarkSwarm generator, working like BW DarkSwarm.
even tho you hijacked my sh idea thread this is also a pretty good idea
seems to me like there are so many cool options to turn the sh into a useful, fun and balanced unit, it makes the current state look so much more stupid...
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The most useless unit in the beta.
Even colossi are sometimes used.
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