ESPORTS Awards. They're the kind of thing the cliché loving editorial staff at TeamLiquid has enjoyed producing for a verylongtime.
However, this year, it feels a bit different. It was one thing to sit in the peanut gallery and snark about players who didn't know you existed, let alone read your website. Now, we're coming to terms with the fact that people actually read our website, and some of them might even think we're some sort of authority.
As you can tell, we're not pretending these are these awards are the Oscars of ESPORTS, or that anyone will be listing "Winner of 2011 TeamLiquid Most Valuable Player award" on their resume any time soon. It's mostly for fun. At the same time, we did put a lot of thought into these awards, and tried to make them a little meaningful, and as fair as possible. Think of it as a sign of appreciation to the guys who brought us a great year of Starcraft II, from the guys at TeamLiquid who spent way too much time watching it.
There was no shortage of surprising runs in 2011, but I don't think anyone came completely out of the blue like ThorZaIN. If you had polled the community before the start of TSL3's qualifiers, you could've probably counted the number of people who thought ThorZaIN would qualify on one hand. If you polled the community before the start of the TSL about who would win, you could have added those people who picked ThorZaIN and still been on the same hand.
Again and again; against FruitDealer, against Tyler, against MC, against Kas, ThorZaIN was the underdog. In each series, he not only emerged victorious, but did so with a wide range of builds and styles. He was one of the first players to really grasp the strength of the 1/1/1, and he almost single-handedly caused Thors to be nerfed. It's pretty incredible actually, if you re-watch ThorZaIN's TSL games, you see him using strategies so solid that they're still in use. Simply put, in 2011, there was simply no first impression as stunning as ThorZaIN's. In SC2, there might never be.
- tree.hugger
Map of the Year
• Antiga Shipyard • Daybreak • Dual Sight
daybreak
Sometimes it might not seem like it, but SC2 mapmaking has come a long way in a year. Remember that GSL January featured cartographic highlights such as Delta Quadrant and Jungle Basin, and that Lost Temple had a cliff over the natural where Terran could auto-win? Those days are firmly behind us, thanks to maps like Daybreak. One of the most balanced maps statistically, Daybreak has a classic map design, reminiscent of Match Point from BW. With multiple passages, a semi-open middle, and expansion positioning that doesn't screw people over (see Zerg trying to get a fifth and sixth on Shakuras) Daybreak is fun for the whole family, and should provide valuable lessons for map-makers in the future.
What makes Daybreak the best map of the year, over equally balanced rivals such as Antiga Shipyard, is Daybreak's unique propensity to make for exciting games. One of our three games of the year was played on Daybreak, and the map has played host to countless other exciting matches since. Yet as good a map as it is, if trends continue, hopefully it'll simply be regarded as an average map next year. I hope that occurs.
- tree.hugger
Most Creative Player
NS_HoSeoJjakji RGN.KiWiKaKi IMMvp
RGN.KiWiKaKi
Photo by: silverfire
Creativity comes in different shapes and sizes. It is one of those things that is highly appreciated by many, but none of us can really define what is and how it's done. All we do know is that it takes an immeasurable amount of something to keep developing your game, utilizing new strategies and entertaining the fans over the entirety of your career.
When I think back on the last year, and when the phrases "Oh my god," "I can't believe that just happened," or "This is absolutely unbelievable, how did he pull this off?" were said, the name 'KiWiKaKi' shines through with brighter Christmas lights than any New York City Christmas market. Do you remember back in January where he wiped out 3 bases of Evil Geniuses' Machine on Xel'Naga Caverns utilizing blink and recall without losing as much as a single Stalker? Do you remember the two base blink Stalker w/ double forge-play popularized in PvZ by this Canadian Protoss user? Do you remember the Mothership floating over The Shattered Temple in Atlantic City at the IPL3 against Stephano? I think we all do. Thank you, Jonathan Garneau, for your contribution in making 2011 a great year.
- Bumblebee
Best (and worst) Strategy
• The 1/1/1 • Two Barracks Opening in TvZ • Blue Flame Hellions vs everything • Four Gate versus everything • Mech meta in Tvt
The 1/1/1
I like to think there's a special place in hell for the 1/1/1.
For a good portion of the year, PvT devolved into ugly, unplayable coin-flip due to a one easily executed all-in. To start off, the build was pretty hard to stop even if you knew it was coming, with even a single micro mistake could mean instant death. Even so, if you were well prepared, you could come out pretty ahead. However, being well prepared for the 1/1/1 usually meant being horribly prepared for everything else. And so, Protoss ended up pretty much s***ing their pants the second they saw that first refinery.
Some pros went to some silly extremes to try and beat the 1/1/1. Saw a refinery? PHOENIX RUSH! Saw a refinery? Two base chargelot-rush without Robotics and HOPE HE DID THE NO-CLOAK VARIATION. Others played middle ground builds that lost to both 1/1/1's and non 1/1/1's. Basically, it was hell on earth.
Of course, as happens with any strategy that's used for too long, people adapted to the 1/1/1. They developed better rounded builds that could deal with the 1/1/1 and other builds at the same time, without giving up too much of an advantage. They figured out how to micro properly against the 1/1/1, without having their Immortals dancing around uselessly in the back while Stalkers got melted (well, Blizzard helped there). The 1/1/1'ers fought back by creating even trickier variations, but the pace of anti-1/1/1 developments was faster than that of 1/1/1 improvements. At present time, the 1/1/1 is a viable all-in that Terrans can use to keep their opponents guessing, but no longer a cornerstone of their game. Thank God.
- Waxangel
Biggest News Story
• Complexity / Millenium / Stephano dispute • EG's Acquisition of HuK • EG's Acquisition of Puma • Naniwa's Probe Rush and Aftermath • Korea Boycott of NASL Season II • PPSL Scandal
Naniwa's Probe Rush
Art by: alteredclone
All six stories commanded the absolute attention of the ESPORTS loving public, and generated countless forum posts and tweets worth of discussion. However, only the giant mess involving Naniwa, Nestea, MLG, and GSL managed to stop the presses for nearly a full week, extending its life as a story by throwing in a new angle every day. Starting with the probe rush alone, it was just about sportsmanship. Naniwa's Code S seed was 'revoked' the next day, throwing Korean pro-gaming culture and the appropriateness of GomTV's punishment into the argument. The day after that, the fine wording of the GSL/MLG League exchange program was brought into question, putting another twist in the tale.
The other reason we thought this story was the 'biggest' was because it forced the community to confront and talk about many aspects of ESPORTS that had been put aside for too long. The meaning of professionalism and sportsmanship in pro-gaming, the need for clear tournament regulations, the damage caused by tournament systems allowing 'pointless' games, the appalling lack of transparency and communication from the two most important organizations in Starcraft II ESPORTS: these were things that might have otherwise gone unnoticed and unresolved. Hopefully, they will be addressed in 2012.
Ceremonies are amazing. They show imagination, emotion and personality. This year we saw many great ceremonies from Taeja all killing ZeNex and then proceeding to shoot his team with a plastic gun to Dimaga's unfiltered joy after winning Assembly Summer and screaming to the heavens while raising his hands in the air. Though, when it comes down to it, the award can go to only one man. When we saw that he was robbed at the GSL Awards Show for best ceremony, we decided that he wouldn't get robbed twice in the category.
MC, not only with the Murloc costume, but with many other ceremonies over the year, has entertained and made him one of the biggest stars in e-sports. So let's all thank Min Chul for keeping Starcraft fun and proving that it is okay to dance after winning a video game. Keep on dancing in 2012, MC. Keep on dancing.
- Fionn
Most Entertaining Player
EG.IdrA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUGNVpzB2t0
It's almost entirely unintentional, but IdrA is the most entertaining man in ESPORTS. As we looked back at the most memorable, shocking, and just plain laugh out loud moments from 2011, we realized that over half of them involved Greg Fields. GGing early against HuK's hallucinated Void Rays, calling numerous Code S players terrible without flinching, being the target of several hilarious ceremonies, being given a new name by the Emperor, GGing early against a Command Center killing MMA, flipping off MC from the audience, inadvertently stealing girlfriends from Canadians, GGing early against solitary cloaked Banshees... You get the picture. Just by being himself, without any extra effort, IdrA was the player that entertained us the most.
We considered MC as a candidate for a second, as he's a funny guy who understands the value of theatrics. But would he have been even half as entertaining without his muse, the Gracken? On the other hand, IdrA wouldn't have missed a beat without the president. As long as there's cheese, freedom of speech, Shakuras Plateau and the F10 & 'N' keys, we suspect IdrA will be winning this award for years.
It's hard to overstate the impact that Stephano had on SC2 in 2011. Coming from nowhere to become the best foreign Zerg, the Frenchman completely changed the way that Zergs and foreigners thought about the game in the process. First gamed out on the European server, the dynamic ling/upgrades/infestor style of play quickly became Stephano's hallmark, as he simply played it significantly better than anyone else. His superb map vision and sense of timing proved that Zergs did not need to live in constant fear of their opponents until hive tech, but could instead aggressively challenge Terran and Protoss in all stages of the game with proper execution.
Perhaps of even greater impact, however, was Stephano's contribution to the foreigner/korean dynamic. By not just defeating, but by thrashing an A-list Korean line-up at IPL3, Stephano showed that the emperor had no clothes; that Koreans could be beaten, and beaten badly. What followed IPL3 has been the most successful period for foreign Sc2 players since Dreamhack Winter 2010. And it's in no small part thanks to Stephano's two revolutions.
- tree.hugger
Rivalry of the Year
Evil Geniuses / Team Liquid IdrA / MC Own3d / Twitch.TV
Team Liquid and Evil Geniuses
Photo: iS.zemotion
In a world where teams often take a backseat to individual player:fan relations, and one where team leagues get little attention, it can be difficult to draw direct parallels between organizations. Nevertheless, through 2011 two teams managed to elevate their game to the head of the pack, finding themselves next to each other in the limelight at all moments.
Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid, both powerhouses with fans and media, found themselves at the forefront of the foreign scene this year. As the only two foreign-based team with players in Code-S, comparisons were plentiful from the year's start. Later, each would go on to become the first teams to sign Korean gamers under their banner, making it that much harder to resist contrasting their strengths. Theses analogies became inescapable after one high-profile team change in particular, ensuring the two team's fate would forever be entwined.
With the year concluding with PuMa and HerO trading wins in the finals in back-to-back weekends at DreamHack Winter and NASL, it cemented their place as the rivalry of the year. With these two teams pushing one another at every turn, we can only hope 2012 continues to push the limits.
- Heyoka
Worst Drama
• Some translator trashes every ESPORT outside of Korean Brood War, 'quits' ESPORTS after getting called out by some guy who casts games and some other guy who cut his hair.
• Some guy makes a post about a girl supposedly manipulating him steal a headset and some other girls who knew this girl show up to defend her.
• Some guy who streams a lot gets DDOS'd by some kid, and he ends up fighting his dad or something; now they're going to be on some TV show or whatever.
• Some woman can't deal with people on the internet saying some mean things about some gold-league girl she hired for her pro-gaming team, so she threatens to take legal action or something.*
Nobody
We're all losers for following this s***.
*Please don't sue us for this, Jessica.
Team of the Year (Korea)
Incredible Miracle SlayerS
Incredible Miracle
This was a tough one. It came down to two teams: Incredible Miracle and Slayers. In terms of team champions, Slayers won that debate with two championships in GSTL to only one of Incredible Miracle. When it came to overall individual championships on the team, IM dwarfed their counterparts with five GSL championships to only two for Slayers. The award was finally given to Incredible Miracle after you look at how dominant their best three players were this year compared to Slayers top players. Nestea and MVP were by far the two most decorated players in 2011, taking home five combined GSL titles and MVP picking up several other trophies along the way. Their third best player, Losira, also proved to be one of the top three Zergs all year long, getting to a final of a GSL and only losing when he had to face his teammate Nestea.
Slayers on the other hand, in terms of singles titles, relied solely MMA. MMA took home two GSL crowns (October and Blizzard Cup), a MLG title at Columbus, and was the main reason his team was able to take home two GSTL titles with his amazing closing ability in tight situations. Going in 2012, Slayers looks like they might overtake with Incredible Miracle with the emergence of players like Brown, Puzzle, Ganzi, and Taeja, but for this year, Incredible Miracle will happily take the title of strongest team, housing the most trophies of any team so far in Starcraft 2 and having the most prize money as well.
- Fionn
Team of the Year (International)
Evil Geniuses Team Liquid
Tie: EG and TL
Photo by: 7mk
Additionally, we the Team Liquid writers, are giving ourselves an honorable mention for 'award cop-out of the year.'
When you looked at who took home championships this year, there were only non-Korean two teams in the discussion. However, it was it was extremely hard to weigh EG and TL's achievements against each other. For Liquid: Assembly Summer, GSL RO4, DreamHack Summer, DreamHack Winter, Blizzcon EU, and HomeStoryCup3. For EG: IPL1, IEM Cologne, IEM Guangzhou, MLG Orlando, GSL RO8, and ASUS ROG Stars. Those are just championships; there are also a ton of high finishes we haven't mentioned.
Outside of tournament performances, both teams did amazing jobs promoting their teams and creating huge fan followings. Whether you checked player stream numbers or what kind of t-shirts fans were wearing at events live events (honorable mention to team Dignitas for their hoodie, arguably the best piece of apparel in all of ESPORTS), you could easily tell that the two teams had the lion's share of fan support.
In the end, it was just too close to call. In this category, we award the sole tie. That, and we don't want to pick TL and get yelled at by our readers for bias, or pick EG and get yelled at by our readers for meta-bias.
- Waxangel
Non-Player Personality of the Year
Day9
Photo by: iSzemotion
We're fast approaching the point where we should rename this award the "Day9 Award for Best Non-Player Personality," but until then… Sean Plott is a man who, for a large majority of the Starcraft community, should need no introduction.
As a long-time player, broadcaster and analyst, his pedigree is practically unmatched, but what cements this award for Day9 has been his boundless enthusiasm, an unfettered passion that has seen him grow from an esports personality to something approximating "cult leader" status. His excitement is infectious, and the devotion he engenders fanatical – as anyone who's seen his ability to command a roomful of people to do the fusion-core-dance will attest.
Day9 rides atop the crest of a wave of esports adulation, and it's hard not to be swept up in it.
- SirJolt
Tournament of the Year (Korea)
GSL November
Art by: Meko
I've watched every single GSL from the time Idra stepped into the gigantic train-like booth to possibly the greatest game in Starcraft 2 history when MMA took down DongRaeGu in the eventful seventh set of their series to win the Blizzard Cup. I can say without doubt the best GSL, from start to finish, from Code S to Code A, was the November edition.
It might not have had the best production value or K-Pop girl player intros, but what you did get was wall to wall great games every single night. With the new format in place, you got to see more of your favorite players and the rise of some new talent to keep an eye out for in 2012. Topping it all of was the sensational semifinal between Leenock and MVP, going to the fifth set and pushing both players to their limits before the young Zerg from FXO could take home the ticket to the final.
Now, usually in GSL finals, the games would either be one-sided or a three minute cheese that goes right or wrong, but what we got to the November finals between Jjakji and Leenock was a spectacular array of games. We saw brilliant timings from Jjakji, Leenock's use of baneling landmines, and long macro-oriented games played by both. Jjakji showed us a few new ways to play TvZ and Leenock proved that he is definitely coming after the title of Best Zerg in 2012. No, the series didn't last seven games, but it was a perfect sendoff to the best GSL of 2011. From the fans, to the players, to the casters, it was a tournament that no one should ever forget.
- Fionn
Tournament of the Year (Europe)
DreamHack Winter 2011
It shouldn't come as much surprise that many of the best tournaments of the year came last. As the scene expanded, as event upon event competed and innovated to stay ahead of the pack, the quality of SC2 events went skyrocketing through the roof. As the last major LAN of 2011, Dreamhack Winter set the standard that all LANs will be judged by in 2012. The players were superb, the games delivered, and the story-line played out better than the organizers could have possibly dreamed.
But what this tournament will be remembered for is the best finals production of any tournament in the world. Subtract one of the most miscast hosts in history, and you've got the famous ESPORTS couch, six of the best casters in the world, two of the best players in the world, a ton of good graphics and camera shots, some silly yet fascinating gimmicks like the pulse meter, and—oh yeah—a hockey stadium stuffed with thousands of pumped up fans. There's no doubt; Dreamhack Winter showed us the brightest future for SC2 yet.
- tree.hugger
Tournament of the Year (USA)
MLG Columbus
If you look back at MLG Columbus, a tournament that was held just six months ago, you can't help but think it's awfully dated. I mean, you call that HD? There were no bells and whistles and to keep you entertained either, just games followed by down time, followed by games, followed by excruciating down time and so forth. Hell, Starcraft wasn't even on the main stage.
Even so, it was the best, and most important tournament of the year. In the big picture, it was the tournament that heralded the arrival of ESPORTS in America. After much trial and error, MLG finally figured out what key components it needed for its Starcraft II brand, and delivered them without error: Two reliable streams, high caliber players from around the world, and room for a crowd to gather. For the first time, American fans got a truly solid product.
That was all it took. Finally having an exhaust for their pent up passion, American fans went insane over pro-gaming like they never had before. It was the birth of the ESPORTS weekend: where fans devote all their time going to, or streaming a tournament for three days, because it's so much fun you don't want to miss any single detail. Weekends where time just stops, and the actions of two hundred gamers in a small American city become the center of the universe.
No, it hasn't aged well. The production is worse, the play is six months worse (an eternity in developing strategies and skill), and everyone involved – casters, players, cameramen, etc – just look less experienced.
But nostalgia is hard to shake. No matter what comes in the future, we'll never be able to recreate that "Oh my god, THIS is what we've been waiting for" feeling. But at least we have that feeling to aspire to, in the next year, the next, and the next. And for that, MLG Columbus was the best American Tournament of 2011.
This year we saw long games, short games, bad games, and boring games. We saw the best of the best and some of TheBestfOu the worst of the worst. After sitting through a million hours of games this year (no hyperbole needed), we had to narrow down the list of best games to only a few. It was a hard decision between what was left, but there was one game that stood above all others when it came to the story it completed, the high level play involved, and the rivalry it advanced. DongRaeGu and MMA played to the best of their abilities at the height of pressure. When going down 0-3 in the series, it looked like DongRaeGu was dead in the water. I thought he was playing some of the worst games in GSL finals history. Then, like a flip had been switched on, DRG came roaring back with three straight victories on maps he wasn't supposed to win on, forcing the finals to go to a deciding set.
MMA could have crumbled, but he didn't. DongRaeGu could have fallen apart after having to give it his all to get back into the series with three hard earned wins, but he didn't. They both played to the best of their potential, wanting to take home the championship in the tournament of champions.
You couldn't ask for a better game with a better story. When Boxer set out to create Slayers, he wanted to build the team around two players: MMA and DongRaeGu. MMA became the crown jewel of Slayers, but DongRaeGu on the other hand was more worried about school and didn't accept the offer to try out for the team. In the end, DRG ended up on MVP after the coach promised that if the progaming gig didn't work out he would pay his way through university.
MMA prevailed in the end, but the fans chanted DongRaeGu's name all the same, showing respect for how valiantly he fought back from being behind three games against one of, if not the best, Terran in the world. All in all, this game and series reassured myself why I am a journalist for e-sports and love writing about it. It made me cheer and keep my eyes glued to the computer screen for thirty straight minutes, wanting to know whose will would be stronger in the end. When the battle was done and Slayers converged on the stage, lifting their champion on the stage, I clapped. Not only for MMA, but for DongRaeGu and the amazing game they just showed us.
I hope you clapped, too.
- Fionn
Player of the Year (Korea)
IMMvp
Photo by: Silverfire
If only we had an award for least surprising result. With other possible contenders NesTea and MC slipping by the wayside in the second half of the year, giving this to MVP is little more than a formality. The year began with MVP dominating GSL January, blowing through the field while losing just one game in the process, and continuing through the years with wins at MLG, WCG, and a second Code-S.
The real story with MVP were the few times he found himself struggling, once falling to Code-A after a rough patch of up-and-down matches. While he went on to mostly cruise through Code-A, he ultimate fell to Bomber 2-4 in the finals, a spot that remains one of his two second place finishes. The other, perhaps more spectacular, being a loss to MMA in GSL Code S October, during the Blizzcon weekend where he seemed destined to take two titles with a single trip.
When a player's more notable achievements are not the times he won, but the times when he somehow missed capturing victory, it becomes easy to mark him as the most accomplished player of that period. MVP is a player whose name has become so synonymous with success that it is a genuine surprise when he enters tournaments and fails to win them, a man who has conquered every land Starcraft 2 has to offer with seeming ease and grace that make it looks as if he is expending no effort at all. There isn't much else to say, MVP is hands-down the best and it is absolutely unthinkable to give this award out anywhere else when looking at the scope of events through the past year.
- Heyoka
Player of the Year (International)
/ EG.HuK Mill.Stephano QxGNaNiwa
EG.HuK
Photo from majorleaguegaming.com
It was a year where white dudes were owned by Koreans, and the supporters of the so called "foreigners" found hope to be an awfully scarce commodity. Jinro could not repeat his early success, IdrA left Korea, and the dozen or so other foreigners that traveled to Korea got their butts kicked by the brutal gate-keeper known as Code-A. On the other hand, the Koreans developed an unhealthy appetite for foreign currency, and they prowled the world in ravenous packs in search of dollars and Euros.
But even in such treacherous times, there was one shining beacon of hope: Chris Loranger. He didn't just turn the tables on the Koreans. No, they were flipped -- and Kimchi was spilled.
In March, HuK showed coach Choya that he should leave playing to the players by replacing him in Code S. In May, when MMA was trying to prove his skill went beyond GSTL, it was HuK who swatted the crown prince down from the up-down matches with an emphatic 2-0 rejection. HuK even took up legend killing for a day, defeating oGs.Nada for a personal best top eight finish.
Of course, his exploits outside of Korea were famous as well. He won championships at HomeStoryCup 3, DreamHack Summer, and MLG Orlando, defeating a Korean player in two of the finals. Each victory helped bridge an ever widening Korea-World gap, as well as protecting valuable foreigner money (although, he did take it back to Korea, spend it in Korea, pay taxes in Korea and support the Korean economy in general. Gamsa hamnida!).
Admittedly, Stephano and NaNiwa put up some very impressive performances in the later half the year, and you can definitely argue the case that they hit higher peaks than HuK. NaNiwa beat six GSL gold medals' worth in Mvp and Nestea over the course of a few hours, while Stephano's two week IPL3/ESWC double-crown might have been harder than HuK's HSC3/DHS. However, as hard as it is to burn so brightly over a short period, it's even harder to keep the fire alive over an entire year.
What makes all of these feats even more impressive is that HuK did this with what must have been the most ridiculous schedule in ESPORTS history. I recall that at one point this year, I calculated that he had done two laps of the world in a ten day stretch. Considering that most Koreans don't go anywhere, and have pretty much every single hour, every single day of the week available to them to practice, it's almost a miracle that HuK did as well as he did. He could have complained, he could have asked for a break, but instead he took on the burden of carrying our hopes (and EG contract requirements) and trudged on until the end. Thank you, HuK. I wish we had more to give you than this silly award.
- Waxangel
Three Players to Watch in 2012
By: tree.hugger
ROX.KIS.TITAN Overview: Perhaps no player had a more rapid rise in the last months of this year than TITAN. The former WC3 pro, who has been playing Sc2 for just six months, qualified online for Dreamhack Winter, then took full advantage of his opportunity by advancing past the first group stage and barely missing the championship bracket on game differential after wins over NightEnD and Kas. Good enough to grab the third Russian WCG qualifier back in September, by the main event TITAN was indisputably Russia's best hope, and he proved it. In his WCG group, TITAN lost narrowly to IdrA, but punished the rest of his group to advance. In the bracket stages, he took out KiWiKaKi and then swept SuperNoVa in the upset of the tournament. Most recently, he qualified for IEM Kiev, booking that as his first major event of 2012. His meteoric rise in the past month and a half certainly lends itself to comparison with Stephano, another unheralded WC3 player who learned and revolutionized Sc2 with incredible speed. But for now, that kind of discussion is a bit premature. TITAN has much further to go and more to learn before he can similarly bring Europe to heel. If he can keep his momentum up though, look out.
The Upside: TITAN's play feels raw and unrefined, but it is full of potential. In a way, TITAN looks a bit like an early-2011 HuK; extremely confident in his control, sometimes to the point of suicide. Favoring gateway armies for longer than is usually expected, TITAN can put a lot of pressure on the opposite player, but can go too far and get overwhelmed by clever opponents. Micro is his strongest suit by far, and his game management smartly takes this into account; usually by taking early economic advantages like a fast third base. TITAN's signature build is a unusual FE against zergs that simply plants a forward gateway instead of a forge, and relies on stellar control to avoid early losses. It encapsulates neatly what makes TITAN a fearsome opponent, but also hints at some of his shortcomings.
Room for Improvement: There's definitely the danger of TITAN becoming a victim of 'the Happy effect' where a player making waves on the ladder withers under the scrutiny of a major LAN event. There are some worrying similarities between TITAN and his so-far disappointing countryman. In particular, TITAN and Happy share a certain inflexibility in style that makes them easy to prepare for and snipe. All new or rapidly rising players often see initial success that ends as they become more broadly known. The challenge is to adapt and become stronger as a result. For TITAN, that moment might be now. His name is now well known among EU pros, and his style—especially they gateway FE that feels gimmicky to me—will be picked apart.
GLSnute Overview: Snute has been capable of winning EU weekly cups and taking games from good players for a while now, but he's never been up with the elite in Europe. Yet month after month, Snute has steadily worked on his game, and in the last two months, he has been improving alarmingly fast. Already Norway's clear champion with thrree major domestic LAN wins in the fall, Snute qualified for ESWC but posted disappointing results in his first international LAN. Soon after, his stream was defeatured as part of the TL cleanup. Instead of responding to these setbacks negatively, Snute rolled up his sleeves and got stronger. With a host of impressive weekly cup results—including sweeps of viOlet and DIMAGA—and a Ro16 performance at WCG that included a win against MorroW, Snute found himself back in the featured column, and on the radar of quite a few more people. Although he missed out on qualifying for IEM Kiev, Snute's recent results seem to suggest we'll see him a lot more on the international stage.
The Upside: At first glace, Snute looks like just another is a macro zerg. He has strong mechanics, but neither his micro, macro, or management are superlative. What sets him apart is his versatile box of tricks in every match-up. In the summer, Snute first found success by abusing infestors in all match-ups, and developing a lot of techniques that other players would become more famous for. After the infestor nerf, Snute hit a period of rocky results, but resurfaced with smarter, cleaner, and more deadly gameplay. Burrowed infestors, and baneling worker assassinations are two staples of Snute's style, which punishes opponents who are slow to react or poor at multitasking. As an added bonus, Snute has made baneling busting into a fine art, keeping opponents on their toes at all times. Interestingly however, his best match-up, ZvZ, is much more fundamental, but backed up by a superb understanding of the MU. Beyond his dynamic style, watching Snute's practice is reason enough to think he's destined for bigger and brighter things in the coming year. A compulsive replay watcher, and adept commentator on his stream, Snute has become one of the better players in the scene at diagnosing and addressing his own mistakes, as well as constantly questioning his own play.
Room for Improvement: Snute has difficulties that are not unique, especially to zergs, but represent the difference between the merely good and the great. Sometimes aggressive to a fault, Snute commonly loses won games by overextending and trading inefficiently. Mech terran play has occasionally been an issue as well. More generally, Snute, like many other zergs, has room to improve with scouting, and can be taken by surprise by early protoss and terran pushes. Snute has wide experience dominating large Norwegian LANs, but his international league experience is quite limited, and after missing the cut for IEM Kiev, he'll have to look for an invite to an event like Assembly Winter to get on the map.
QxGApocalypse Overview: Originally on Team aLive, one of a number of smaller teams in Korea, completely unknown in the West, and hoping to make the GSTL; Apocalypse was recently picked up by Quantic, which means we'll see a lot more of him in 2012. He's been around for a while though, scattered videos of him exist on YouTube from many months ago. But his pickup by one of the most well-known teams in Sc2 is notable because it confirms what we've known for a long time (that he's an excellent player) and hints at a bright future. Foreign fans have already seen him in action twice; for QIM against Mousesports in the IPL Team Arena Challenge. That he was sent out already as a new recruit is surprising, but Apocalypse wasn't able to pick up a win on either occasion, with a loss to MorroW, and a cross-server defeat to ThorZaIN. Nonetheless, the play he exhibited in those brief appearances was fresh and showed enough of his skill to make Apocalypse one of the most interesting players in 2012.
The Upside: Simply by being a professional Korean terran, Apocalypse gains some caché, but he brings intangibles to the table that make him one of the best. His game sense and decision making are astonishing, so much so that opponents of his have said they almost thought he was maphacking. Apocalypse is also consistently unorthodox, he's well known for taking common builds and tweaking them to support different timings or compositions. This allows him to be relentlessly aggressive with some degree of safety. Early pushes timed to kill opposing zergs third bases are a specialty, as is early reaper play. In TvT, his mech play and funny transitions are difficult to anticipate. Combine this clever style and planning with attentive unit control, solid macro, and particularly crisp build execution and you have one of the most dangerous terrans currently outside of the GSL.
Room for Improvement: In the two IPL TAC games, you can see one of Apocalypse's natural weaknesses, as his cute strategies are at least partially blocked and then his aggressiveness comes back to haunt him as he gets run over in a poor engagement. That's the 'just go kill him!' gospel in the Book of Day9, and in the IPL games as well as ladder matches, Apocalypse seems vulnerable to hyper-standard, defensive play that builds to a single strong attack. Proper scouting and due caution can undo cleverness, and if Apocalypse continues to be weak to mid-late counter play, then he'll have a hard time making it as far as he can. But his pick-up by QxG should help with this, and in closing that hole in his gameplay, Apocalypse will be able to force players into his kind of games, the type that few current Sc2 pros seem willing to play.
Awesome write up. My opinion differs on some of these, but that's what makes these "best of's" so awesome. Just the fact that I can have differing opinions on what was the most awesome part of ESPORTS in 2011 makes me smiles. Thanks TL!
I think Mouz deserves team of the year. They've been doing better than either TL or EG in team leagues. I feel the award should go to the team that functions best as a whole, not the team that acquires a Korean who can dominate foreigners.
I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
ah- how timely indeed- great read- MVP is definitely hands down the best player of the year really liked the last part about up and coming people! MC FIGHTING!!!
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
EG (1st places): IPL Season 1 (IdrA) IEM GamesCom (PuMa) IEM China (IdrA) Asus ROG (IdrA) MLG Orlando (HuK) NASL Season 2 (PuMa)
So EG and we are tried for the lead, but where one of the "major" titles you're bringing in is an online tournament. However this is very very close and not hugely in favor of EG
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
I agreed with almost everything, but you meta-meta-biased yourselves out with the foreign team pick... You can't ever fully get rid of bias, just make a call and deal with the fallback.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
That was the map which revolutionized the game (well one of the 3), but it has been around for the longest, got onto the ladder, pretty balanced and has given us plenty of great games.
Sorry international team of the year wtf......, where was mouz, mouz outstrips both eg and tl as a team by a long shot, no team comes together in team leagues like mouz, no team comes even close to it, maybe less so as a group of individuals but thats blind bias not even nominating mouz.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
2011 1st Places Liquid (3) Ret Assembly Winter, Battle.net European Invitational Hero - Dreamhack Winter EG (7) Idra - IPL 1, IEM China Huk - Dreamhack Summer, MLG Orlando Puma - NASL 1, 2, IEM Cologne
Do you think its fair to award results to players on teams when they weren't on that team :-) ?
Sorry, you are correct, I did not calculate this. I still hold my original opinion, but respect yours.
I haven't calculated this but I would venture that as a team, TL has had more high placements than EG this year. TL seems to have more general depth when you look past the stars.
If we just look at the heavy-hitters, then yes I would agree EG has the better team.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
2011 1st Places Liquid (3) Ret Assembly Winter, Battle.net European Invitational Hero - Dreamhack Winter EG (7) Idra - IPL 1, IEM China Huk - Dreamhack Summer, MLG Orlando Puma - NASL 1, 2, IEM Cologne
Do you think its fair to award results to players on teams when they weren't on that team :-) ?
Sorry, you are correct, I did not calculate this. I still hold my original opinion, but respect yours.
I haven't calculated this but I would venture that as a team, TL has had more high placements than EG this year. TL seems to have more general depth when you look past the stars.
If we just look at the heavy-hitters, then yes I would agree EG has the better team.
I think TL feels like it flows better together, but EG I feel has a deeper depth of talent which pushes it higher as the overall 'better' team. But better in a general sense, they both have aspects that outweigh one another.
On January 01 2012 15:04 decerto wrote: Sorry international team of the year wtf......, where was mouz, mouz outstrips both eg and tl as team by a long shot, no team comes together in team leagues like mouz no team comes even close to it
mouz is definitely one amazing team and that's nothing i want to take away from them. But the team leagues that has been in the past year, hasn't really been on the level of the 1on1 competitions that has been. What the reason exactly might have been for that, I can't really tell, but the money compared to effort hasn't been exactly worth it to value it higher than some of the biggest tournaments such as IPL and DreamHack (which they have collided with), so while it's been taken seriously and people have wanted to play to win, I still think there's a long way to go for these and I believe IGN will be bringing some stuff to the table very soon.
However mouz definitely lacks 1on1 competition wins and general attendance than other teams.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
Seriously, why is Mouz not team of the year... I get that EG/Liquid probably have a few more individual results on their roster, but Mouz are the scariest foreign team. Looks incredibly biased with only 2 nominations to begin with.
I would've said BlinG for the up-and-comers to watch for sure! 6-0 his group at WCG, did really well at the IPL4 quals. I suppose there's lots of players you can put there, beastyqt, sYz, Axslav, lots of people.
On January 01 2012 15:42 Naniwa wrote: biased awards are biased
"Team Liquid awards"
There's always going to be some sort of bias, it's impossible to remove all bias from something that's qualitatively chosen by humans. At least you won one award
Nice article, drama award was pretty damn hilarious. Have to disagree with a few like best korean team, I thought for sure slayers was the most influential.
I'm surprised you left out Boxer from the most creative players. I mean, even in his silly showmatch against Yellow, he pointed out how he could instantly get his marines cross the map. That's creativity right there. Not to mention, his countless brilliant decisions that make his games interesting.
Good call though, KiwiKaki was very impressive this year, the mass recall madness game was the most brilliant usage of a mothership I've ever seen and probably will see.
Nice. Don't agree with all the winners, and I feel some things are left out in the nominees, but you can't cover it all perfectly I guess (let alone have the same opinion).
What a really nice article! I liked the collaborative effort in order to get varied perspectives. I can agree with almost all of the choices, and while I am not concerned in the slightest with any bias that existed, I do wish that some of the categories would have had more nominations.
Additionally, I enjoyed the section that highlighted some of the up-and-comers of 2012. In particular, I like that you did not choose names that were already pretty popular, just not champion-calibur players (for example, I like that you did not choose Axlav, although he is certainly a great up-and-coming player - it is just that everyone already knows who he is, and deservedly so!). Instead, you focused on people I truly have never seen before, and that is something that I am really excited about.
All in all, this was a fantastic article, and it makes me terribly excited for the upcoming year! Thank you very much TL!
What a fun article. It would be cool if this could be expanded to a semi-event type ceremony. Team liquid has sufficient credibility and clout to give out theses awards and for the award to be meaningful.
I think it would be positive promotion of Starcraft and eSports in general.
Why is TL tied for team of the year with EG? It isn't hard at all to weigh the two teams' achievements against eachother -- TL is carried by HerO while EG is "carried" (if you can call it that) by three top players (now four I guess).
On January 01 2012 16:44 hmunkey wrote: Why is TL tied for team of the year with EG? It isn't hard at all to weigh the two teams' achievements against eachother -- TL is carried by HerO while EG is "carried" (if you can call it that) by three top players (now four I guess).
"Subtract one of the most miscast hosts in history, and you've got the famous ESPORTS couch, six of the best casters in the world, two of the best players in the world..."
Can I get a list of who is who on that list? I missed most of DHW11. I'm curious as to who the "two best players" and "subtract one of the most miscast hosts," but if I could get a list of who all was there and which section they'd fit in, that would be awesome.
On January 01 2012 16:44 hmunkey wrote: Why is TL tied for team of the year with EG? It isn't hard at all to weigh the two teams' achievements against eachother -- TL is carried by HerO while EG is "carried" (if you can call it that) by three top players (now four I guess).
On January 01 2012 16:44 hmunkey wrote: Why is TL tied for team of the year with EG? It isn't hard at all to weigh the two teams' achievements against eachother -- TL is carried by HerO while EG is "carried" (if you can call it that) by three top players (now four I guess).
On January 01 2012 16:44 hmunkey wrote: Why is TL tied for team of the year with EG? It isn't hard at all to weigh the two teams' achievements against eachother -- TL is carried by HerO while EG is "carried" (if you can call it that) by three top players (now four I guess).
EG (1st places): IPL Season 1 (IdrA) IEM GamesCom (PuMa) IEM China (IdrA) Asus ROG (IdrA) MLG Orlando (HuK) NASL Season 2 (PuMa)
Edit: Looks like EG was 'carried' by 2 players. Huk only has one win as an EG member. TL has 4 different players.
Not all tournaments are equal though. If you actually look at the difficulty of the competition those results completely change. Hell, just take out any tourney that didn't have several Koreans and Liquid immediately looks a lot less impressive. My soccer team in 2nd grade went undefeated one season -- does that mean we're better than Manchester United?
And you're aware there are more places than first, right? If you look at the Korean-won tourneys, the top non-Koreans are without fail EG players and Naniwa.
On January 01 2012 16:44 hmunkey wrote: Why is TL tied for team of the year with EG? It isn't hard at all to weigh the two teams' achievements against eachother -- TL is carried by HerO while EG is "carried" (if you can call it that) by three top players (now four I guess).
EG (1st places): IPL Season 1 (IdrA) IEM GamesCom (PuMa) IEM China (IdrA) Asus ROG (IdrA) MLG Orlando (HuK) NASL Season 2 (PuMa)
Edit: Looks like EG was 'carried' by 2 players. Huk only has one win as an EG member. TL has 4 different players.
I don't see why you would say huk's win doesn't count yet tlo's does, as they both have 1 win on their current team.
True. So then it's 4-3 TL still wins? :D
Technically, but listing TLO's win is questionable, and I think his point is that EG's roster is much better atm. Hero and Ret and pretty much all that TL has going for them, while EG has idra, huk, puma, demuslim, and now JYP.
I loved this. There's only one thing I would possibly change. You say that EG and TL are the only foreign teams in discussion for top foreign teams of the year. What about mouz? You can't deny they've done some incredible things this year!
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
The Drama section is lacking in ways the disclaimer regarding followers being "losers" does not compensate for. The severity of internet bullying in Korea and the rights of streamers are topics that should be dealt with appropriately, not blown off. That these cases led to VERY thorough investigation and pseudo-litigation are signs of how extreme these problems can be, not the absurdity of it all. Some of the drama is almost skewed to the point of misinformation. Please reconsider referencing these stories so glibly if they are not going to be detailed at all.
*Wasn't able to cover other stories due to lack of familiarity.
This is really awesome. It is definitely not worth arguing over some of the decisions imo, because regardless of who got the awards, this was an absolutely awesome recap of the year. I appreciate it. I look forward to another next year. :D
On January 01 2012 16:59 IMHirai wrote: We don't know about Apocalypse.
Apocalypse is only Quantic gaming player.
He is not IM player
IM Coach doesnt know who Apocalypse is. Maybe you guys got it wrong.
An additional error is the fact that Nestea won two GSL's this year, not three. Not that that changes IM's overall dominance because of Mvp, though it would be a little closer since there apparently other factors besides solo tournament runs.
A closer question might be, who carried his team more, MMA or DRG? DRG carried through a much longer GSTL season, and he was sometimes the entire team, whereas MMA was more often "only" the ace, but he also brought additional championships representing his team in normal tournaments. In terms of straight carrying, I'd probably have to go with DRG, by a very narrow margin.
But on the whole, it feels SlayerS' is neglected in some of the upper echelons of the foreign community (I'd rather listen to Tastosis cast, but I'd look to Wolf or Moletrap to talk about players that aren't from IM), perhaps out of fear of being seen as hopping on a bandwagon. For example, how many times must we hear, "mentored by SlayerSBoxer?" Coaches Cella and Ryu Won, as well as the players themselves, deserve a little more credit. And in the case of this article, Nestea and Apocalypse were both used to overhype IM, in a sense, and in the one case, it was to the detriment of SlayerS (not that that would swing the award in their favor--it shouldn't just because of that difference).
I understand that there's this feeling of "SlayerS gets all the attention." Even I was a little embarrassed MMA vs MVP won the best series award at the GSL award ceremonies, even though it was the result that pleased me most, but the team sure seems to get a share of negative attention, too. Since there was a small jab at Jessica mentioned in the drama section, perhaps it would be fair to remember SlayerS was the only team to withdraw from NASL in a timely manner, given that that drama was also mentioned in the same section?
Ummm jjajki not for break out performance but leenock is? We always knew leenock was a boss, he just paired with all the titans so he never got to show his full potential.. Jjakji on the other hand...
On January 01 2012 18:21 asdfOu wrote: Ummm jjajki not for break out performance but leenock is? We always knew leenock was a boss, he just paired with all the titans so he never got to show his full potential.. Jjakji on the other hand...
Agree... well Leenock like you said never showed his "full potential" (assuming he was that good or close to it shortly before GSL November) but you're right jjakji came out of nowhere. Didn't he come straight from Code B into Code A into Code S into winning GSL November? Leenock, however, has been known as a decent Zerg for about the entire year, and has been improving ever since.
Also I don't agree with Thorzain being a break out player. Yeah he's good and he came at TSL3 quite fast but I would have given Jjakji a nomination instead. If Leenock deserved the best break out player nomination, Jjakji deserved it more. Anyways I would say Jjakji > Thorzain, even. In both cases we never really knew the other player. Jjakji has been playing in some korean leagues, but no one (on TL at least) has really given much coverage on him. However, Jjakji won Code S... Thorzain beat MC, sure, but really that's his only impressive win. Fruit Dealer has been playing poorly ever since after GSL Open 1, and none of the other players Thorzain beat were notable. I mean, I really don't think Tyler nor Kas would even be able to stay in Code A consistently, if they were to make it at all. Jjakji jumped into Code S immediately and won the whole thing.
On January 01 2012 18:21 asdfOu wrote: Ummm jjajki not for break out performance but leenock is? We always knew leenock was a boss, he just paired with all the titans so he never got to show his full potential.. Jjakji on the other hand...
Agree... well Leenock like you said never showed his "full potential" (assuming he was that good or close to it shortly before GSL November) but you're right jjakji came out of nowhere. Didn't he come straight from Code B into Code A into Code S into winning GSL November? Leenock, however, has been known as a decent Zerg for about the entire year, and has been improving ever since.
Also I don't agree with Thorzain being a break out player. Yeah he's good and he came at TSL3 quite fast but I would have given Jjakji a nomination instead. If Leenock deserved the best break out player nomination, Jjakji deserved it more. Anyways I would say Jjakji > Thorzain, even. In both cases we never really knew the other player. Jjakji has been playing in some korean leagues, but no one (on TL at least) has really given much coverage on him. However, Jjakji won Code S... Thorzain beat MC, sure, but really that's his only impressive win. Fruit Dealer has been playing poorly ever since after GSL Open 1, and none of the other players Thorzain beat were notable. I mean, I really don't think Tyler nor Kas would even be able to stay in Code A consistently, if they were to make it at all. Jjakji jumped into Code S immediately and won the whole thing.
Anyone who seen GSL the entire year would know what keept leenock back was his horrid ZvP(and still is...). Jjakjis only real preformance before GSL was the korean weekly monthly finals #1 which alot of people dint watch so he came as a shock to quite alot of people
Also why do kiwikakki keep getting these "creative" awards? Theres koreans who have made alot more viable builds than him. I dont really see him having added anything worthwhile to protoss builds
On January 01 2012 18:21 asdfOu wrote: Ummm jjajki not for break out performance but leenock is? We always knew leenock was a boss, he just paired with all the titans so he never got to show his full potential.. Jjakji on the other hand...
Agree... well Leenock like you said never showed his "full potential" (assuming he was that good or close to it shortly before GSL November) but you're right jjakji came out of nowhere. Didn't he come straight from Code B into Code A into Code S into winning GSL November? Leenock, however, has been known as a decent Zerg for about the entire year, and has been improving ever since.
Also I don't agree with Thorzain being a break out player. Yeah he's good and he came at TSL3 quite fast but I would have given Jjakji a nomination instead. If Leenock deserved the best break out player nomination, Jjakji deserved it more. Anyways I would say Jjakji > Thorzain, even. In both cases we never really knew the other player. Jjakji has been playing in some korean leagues, but no one (on TL at least) has really given much coverage on him. However, Jjakji won Code S... Thorzain beat MC, sure, but really that's his only impressive win. Fruit Dealer has been playing poorly ever since after GSL Open 1, and none of the other players Thorzain beat were notable. I mean, I really don't think Tyler nor Kas would even be able to stay in Code A consistently, if they were to make it at all. Jjakji jumped into Code S immediately and won the whole thing.
Anyone who seen GSL the entire year would know what keept leenock back was his horrid ZvP(and still is...). Jjakjis only real preformance before GSL was the korean weekly monthly finals #1 which alot of people dint watch so he came as a shock to quite alot of people
Also why do kiwikakki keep getting these "creative" awards? Theres koreans who have made alot more viable builds than him. I dont really see him having added anything worthwhile to protoss builds
Kiwi was one of the guys who brought zealot harass vs Z to the spotlight. His mothership usage is quite unique too. And that's just of the top of my head, he's being creative in a lot more ways.
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I don't understand the part of idra "Stealing canadians girlfriends". Can someone explain please?
On January 01 2012 18:21 asdfOu wrote: Ummm jjajki not for break out performance but leenock is? We always knew leenock was a boss, he just paired with all the titans so he never got to show his full potential.. Jjakji on the other hand...
Agree... well Leenock like you said never showed his "full potential" (assuming he was that good or close to it shortly before GSL November) but you're right jjakji came out of nowhere. Didn't he come straight from Code B into Code A into Code S into winning GSL November? Leenock, however, has been known as a decent Zerg for about the entire year, and has been improving ever since.
Also I don't agree with Thorzain being a break out player. Yeah he's good and he came at TSL3 quite fast but I would have given Jjakji a nomination instead. If Leenock deserved the best break out player nomination, Jjakji deserved it more. Anyways I would say Jjakji > Thorzain, even. In both cases we never really knew the other player. Jjakji has been playing in some korean leagues, but no one (on TL at least) has really given much coverage on him. However, Jjakji won Code S... Thorzain beat MC, sure, but really that's his only impressive win. Fruit Dealer has been playing poorly ever since after GSL Open 1, and none of the other players Thorzain beat were notable. I mean, I really don't think Tyler nor Kas would even be able to stay in Code A consistently, if they were to make it at all. Jjakji jumped into Code S immediately and won the whole thing.
Anyone who seen GSL the entire year would know what keept leenock back was his horrid ZvP(and still is...). Jjakjis only real preformance before GSL was the korean weekly monthly finals #1 which alot of people dint watch so he came as a shock to quite alot of people
Also why do kiwikakki keep getting these "creative" awards? Theres koreans who have made alot more viable builds than him. I dont really see him having added anything worthwhile to protoss builds
Kiwi was one of the guys who brought zealot harass vs Z to the spotlight. His mothership usage is quite unique too. And that's just of the top of my head, he's being creative in a lot more ways.
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I don't understand the part of idra "Stealing canadians girlfriends". Can someone explain please?
At one point Idra had a girlfriend from Canada. Not sure what's the deal, behind the "stealing" part.
TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
I wish that the "I am NaDa" moment from MLG Raleigh was included in the ceremony of the year category though. I thought it was a rather compelling moment. Link:
MVP should have gotten most revolutionary, or maybe Twitch, but besides that everything is perfect. I guess you had to give Stephano something or else the fanboys may have revolted.
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
Both those wins by Huk AND, if we're being honest MLG Orlando as well, belong to Liquid (MLG Orlando happened like a few weeks after the switch, while Huk was still in oGs house, and the only thing EG had to do with that win was basically putting him on a plane to get there). Implying that Huk's wins don't count because EG bought him off later on is ridiculous, especially in a yearly awards kind of thing.
It's not like Mouz won Proleague. All "team leagues" in 2011 were online clan war leagues with low to mediocre prize money (when spread over the entire team). Teams lost because of lack of interest/preparation, or even players to play every game out.
Back to back GSL semifinals alone carry more weight than any of those.
Did not know about that MMA and DRG story. Holy cow. They could have been on the same team? Now they're rivals? Damn... these guys have the makings of a legendary rivalry.
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
Both those wins by Huk AND, if we're being honest MLG Orlando as well, belong to Liquid (MLG Orlando happened like a few weeks after the switch, while Huk was still in oGs house, and the only thing EG had to do with that win was basically putting him on a plane to get there). Implying that Huk's wins don't count because EG bought him off later on is ridiculous, especially in a yearly awards kind of thing.
It's not like Mouz won Proleague. All "team leagues" in 2011 were online clan war leagues with low to mediocre prize money (when spread over the entire team). Teams lost because of lack of interest/preparation, or even players to play every game out.
Back to back GSL semifinals alone carry more weight than any of those.
They belong to the player, actually -- because it's an individual event.
If you want to look at best team, look at team events, otherwise don't count individual titles as a team accomplishment O_O
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
Both those wins by Huk AND, if we're being honest MLG Orlando as well, belong to Liquid (MLG Orlando happened like a few weeks after the switch, while Huk was still in oGs house, and the only thing EG had to do with that win was basically putting him on a plane to get there). Implying that Huk's wins don't count because EG bought him off later on is ridiculous, especially in a yearly awards kind of thing.
It's not like Mouz won Proleague. All "team leagues" in 2011 were online clan war leagues with low to mediocre prize money (when spread over the entire team). Teams lost because of lack of interest/preparation, or even players to play every game out.
Back to back GSL semifinals alone carry more weight than any of those.
They belong to the player, actually -- because it's an individual event.
If you want to look at best team, look at team events, otherwise don't count individual titles as a team accomplishment O_O
Well then every game of Starcraft is an individual event in and of itself, except the 2v2 ones. It's semantics. Starcraft is an individual game, but all the players are where they are based on the practice environment, support and conditions provided for by their teams. In this case "which team has the most successful players overall" is the criteria that applies imo.
Besides, if we did look at teamleagues, it wouldn't be a tie between Mouz and EG as you suggested, it would be Mouz winning by far with Empire and Dignitas being the other two nominees. Moreover, I recall oGsTL winning some matches in GSTL, which is the only real live team league. The original FXO should be a nominee as well for taking down IM.
Until we have a Proleague-like competition in the west, team leagues, as fun as they may be, can not measure up to premier tournaments that all the top players actually practice for and focus on.
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
Huk won dreamhack summer and.homestory cup while he was on.Liquid. The accolades should stay with the team.he won the championship on. It is like saying the six championship Michael Jordan with the Chicago Bulls should be considered the washongton wizard's championships because that was the last team Jordan played on. The championshops stays with the team and doesn't get transferred because the person moved to another organization.
It's been the community consensus for a top 4 (top 8 debatable) in GSL for a foreigner is on par with winning a western championship if not better.
Mouz has only won a single individual championship in 2011, TSL3. Until tuey can demonstrate that they can win multiple major individual championships prwferably LANs, I don't they deserve to be team of the year.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
2011 1st Places Liquid (3) Ret Assembly Winter, Battle.net European Invitational Hero - Dreamhack Winter EG (7) Idra - IPL 1, IEM China Huk - Dreamhack Summer, MLG Orlando Puma - NASL 1, 2, IEM Cologne
Do you think its fair to award results to players on teams when they weren't on that team :-) ?
The original comment was about who has the best lineup. Has, not had. It might be debatable who had a better year, but it's not even close who has the best lineup right now.
SKorea cyber bullying is a very serious issue, due to the extreme they go to. From joining an Anti-Fan Club to having a petition stating the person should commit suicide that have up 100,000 unique vote and signatures.
Please refrain from irresponsibly writing about it, or better yet never mention at all.
On January 01 2012 19:33 ptbl wrote:Mouz has only won a single individual championship in 2011, TSL3. Until tuey can demonstrate that they can win multiple major individual championships prwferably LANs, I don't they deserve to be team of the year.
I dont think only 1st places are best indicator (HuK in most cases...), if we talk about teams? top3 finishes would be better imo. Anyway those team tourneys held players like Hero, Ret, Sheth, Puma, Idra and HuK(2011 Evil Geniuses Masters Cup Season VI) so i dont think teams were not that serious about it...
it's nice to see these actually are 2011 year awards and not last-3-months-of-a-year awards, as they usually tend to be. Still think TL should win the best team though!
On January 01 2012 20:07 ondik wrote: it's nice to see these actually are 2011 year awards and not last-3-months-of-a-year awards, as they usually tend to be. Still think TL should win the best team though!
depends... in a best site category i definately agree though!
EG/TL winning foreign team of the year is a bit of a joke, especially TL they did nothing on the team game scene apart from lose :/. Plus half the accolades you attributed to them were won by non foreign members! pfft.
I liked the worst drama winner: NOBODY But I can't help but feel that we, the fans, won. All the drama certainly made for entertaining lunchtime discussions put it that way. Here's hoping for more of the same next year!
On January 01 2012 19:33 ptbl wrote:Mouz has only won a single individual championship in 2011, TSL3. Until tuey can demonstrate that they can win multiple major individual championships prwferably LANs, I don't they deserve to be team of the year.
I dont think only 1st places are best indicator (HuK in most cases...), if we talk about teams? top3 finishes would be better imo. Anyway those team tourneys held players like Hero, Ret, Sheth, Puma, Idra and HuK(2011 Evil Geniuses Masters Cup Season VI) so i dont think teams were not that serious about it...
Also people tend to forget that Thorzain played 90% of the TSL under Prae and only transferred to Mouz right before the final. This is not to say Mouz isn't a great team, they obviously are. Just correcting a fact that influences how much of the TSL3 title "belongs" to a certain team flag, since the criteria used by writers included individual events.
On January 01 2012 19:33 ptbl wrote:Mouz has only won a single individual championship in 2011, TSL3. Until tuey can demonstrate that they can win multiple major individual championships prwferably LANs, I don't they deserve to be team of the year.
I dont think only 1st places are best indicator (HuK in most cases...), if we talk about teams? top3 finishes would be better imo. Anyway those team tourneys held players like Hero, Ret, Sheth, Puma, Idra and HuK(2011 Evil Geniuses Masters Cup Season VI) so i dont think teams were not that serious about it...
Also people tend to forget that Thorzain played 90% of the TSL under Prae and only transferred to Mouz right before the final. This is not to say Mouz isn't a great team, they obviously are. Just correcting a fact that influences how much of the TSL3 title "belongs" to a certain team flag, since the criteria used by writers included individual events.
Actually, TL is taking partial credit for ThorZaIN's TSL3 victory, as he prepared for the final at our office. So the Liquid 2011 Achievement list is more like this:
Assembly Winter 1st Blizzcon EU 1st Blizzcon US 2nd DreamHack Winter 1st DreamHack Summer 1st DreamHack Winter Top 4 HomeStoryCup 3 1st GSL Code S RO4 NASL S2 2nd
Thanks for the writeup guys! Read it all and enjoyed it all.
Of course, awards are subjective. Except the MVP award for best player of the year, that is pretty goddam obvious. That said I at least agree with most of the awards on some level.
On January 01 2012 20:11 bmml wrote: EG/TL winning foreign team of the year is a bit of a joke, especially TL they did nothing on the team game scene apart from lose :/. Plus half the accolades you attributed to them were won by non foreign members! pfft.
It's really hard to differentiate the team with the overall brand. Overall TL of course deserves the award for all the awesome stuff they did this year, the TSL, fan meets, promotions, Map contest etc... But I have to agree the team has been disappointing. I love most of the TL players, Ret, Tyler, Jinro especially, but on results you have to say they aren't really cutting it. It would be nice if TL could give some roster spots (and funding) to up and coming players. Run a couple of big "courage" style qualification tournaments to find the best young foreign talent and see if we can't find the next MVP somewhere in foreigner land.
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
100% agree, without a doubt TL has done more for the SC community than anyone. But when it comes to team dynamics they don't come near to EG's level. Vote should've consisted of Mouz and a few other team. At the end of the day EG takes the top spot easy, they have way too much star power/good placings for any other teams to compare.
Can someone explain or link me to the drama mentions? Particularly the last one.
• Some translator trashes every ESPORT outside of Korean Brood War, 'quits' ESPORTS after getting called out by some guy who casts games and some other guy who cut his hair.
• Some guy makes a post about a girl supposedly manipulating him steal a headset and some other girls who knew this girl show up to defend her.
• Some guy who streams a lot gets DDOS'd by some kid, and he ends up fighting his dad or something; now they're going to be on some TV show or whatever.
• Some woman can't deal with people on the internet saying some mean things about some gold-league girl she hired for her pro-gaming team, so she threatens to take legal action or something.*
Almost every choice seems fine, except team of the year (international), where you judge only individual wins (of Koreans half of the time). Mouz in team leagues is better than both, only losing to korean teams but they are not TL stars...
People need to look at the big picture and not just to the last months, the first half of 2011 was dominated by TeamLiquid, they used to be so scary... Then, after Huk's transfer EG started to dominate the scene... (I'm not saying that this was because of Huk), sure each team has had their spotlights in each half of the year ( IdrA, herO).
Everyone saying that the choices are biased should know that (1) they're really not, perhaps you're biased?, and (2) these were chosen by a group of people, not just one person. I assure you there were a lot of arguments about just about every category.
On January 01 2012 20:59 tree.hugger wrote: Everyone saying that the choices are biased should know that (1) they're really not, perhaps you're biased?, and (2) these were chosen by a group of people, not just one person. I assure you there were a lot of arguments about just about every category.
thats ridiculous statement... anyway, the only situation this choices werent much biased is when you have all teams managers/principals/coaches from all over the world voting for players/teams (voting for your own team not allowed ofc)
Only nominating two International Teams is asking to be called biased. Mousesports should definitely be up there. And am I the only one that didn't really notice the TL/EG rivalry. The HuK transfer for example went very smooth. Things like mousesports vs. EG on Twitter were much more fun and rivalry'ish
• Some guy makes a post about a girl supposedly manipulating him steal a headset and some other girls who knew this girl show up to defend her.
• Some guy who streams a lot gets DDOS'd by some kid, and he ends up fighting his dad or something; now they're going to be on some TV show or whatever.
• Some woman can't deal with people on the internet saying some mean things about some gold-league girl she hired for her pro-gaming team, so she threatens to take legal action or something.
Hmm.. I don't really understand, why Leenock is nominated as best break-out player of the year, when he already had two RO16 results in 2010 and was widely considered as a very good Zerg (espacially after the game vs Clide on Shakuras).. Whereas for example DRG played his first televised game in May 2011 or Bomber and Jjakji hadn't really any results before..
Folks, please don't bash the EG/TL tie for team of the year .
While I do think that a case could be made for EG edging out TL as the singular team of the year (even by just a hair), and while that may be my (admittedly biased) personal opinion, I don't think an objective argument can really be made for either side coming out noticeably on top. When you consider all aspects of what makes a team great, including player support, fan engagement, community presence, business development, and (of course) tournament results, the gap between EG and TL - if it exists at all - is just too minimal to warrant either team winning the award outright.
Both EG and TL have our respective strengths and weaknesses, but overall, I don't think there are any international teams doing a better job of running their StarCraft divisions than EG and TL. And I want to both thank and applaud Victor, James, Ken, and everyone over at TL for a job very, very well done. I mean this very sincerely. This is not meant to take credit away from any of the other very high-level international teams, of course; it's just that, as far as StarCraft goes, I think EG and TL are at the forefront of international teams.
I'm very happy to share both the rivalry and team of the year awards with TL. Speaking comfortably for Scott, Colin, Cody, and everyone over at EG, we have so much respect for what TL does for its players and the community, and we're very excited to move into 2012 with such an intense and storied rivalry intact.
Watching DreamHack Winter was a very interesting experience for me. On the one hand, I obviously want EG to win every tournament we enter (especially that particular event, which was so well-produced and carried such prestige), and as such, I was *absolutely* heartbroken when HerO defeated PuMa in game seven to take the event. The loss haunted me for the better part of a week, causing many fingertips-to-the-forehead head shakes and long-inhale-short-exhale sighs. Yet, at the same time, I found the logical part of my brain continually saying, "This is good for the sport. Liquid was overdue for a big win."
I think that this anecdote is aptly representative of the dilemma and conflict you constantly face as a team owner. On the one hand, you want the sport to grow and flourish, and you understand that in the big picture of things, in order for that to happen, it's necessary for multiple teams to do well, and for intense rivalries to develop. Yet at the same time, you genuinely want your players and your team to win every, single map they play, and if you're not doing everything it takes to win (within the rules), you're doing yourself, your players, and your fans an unacceptable disservice.
Somehow, these two desires, while in theory rather mutually exclusive, in practice coexist in every team owner's mind on a daily basis. And so, while on the one hand I hope that an EG player wins every single tournament in 2012, on the other hand I know that it's good for the sport if Liquid (and other teams) get their share of victories as well. So, Victor, and everyone at TL, I truly wish all of you good luck going into the new year.
its kinda ridiculous how they even came to think about team liquid as team of the year i remember them not winning anything as a team and getting crushed by most other teams now that they bought themselves two koreans they should kinda be up there but they keep failing in teamleagues even getting all-killed in a Bo9 format by SaSe its kinda ridiculous that they even consider making a team of the year award on the website that stands for a team so that itself is kinda cute but the fact that they even make their bias so obvious is just kinda ridiculous i mean EG and mouz are also not even tied up in results in team leagues and since thats obviously where teams should be measured its just .... (and even if you add 1v1 tournaments to that mouz and EG should still be way far ahead of liquid with EG being the more achieved team in 1v1 tournaments and mouz being better in team competitions)
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
Oh my, please get more worked up over this. Also perhaps try to have a level head while posting?
You completely look past most of liquid's achievements and immediately jump to some online team leagues? Really? There seems to be more bias in your post than there is in the entire OP.
Breathe, think, do some research, then maybe post if you are still upset.
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
Huk won dreamhack summer and.homestory cup while he was on.Liquid. The accolades should stay with the team.he won the championship on. It is like saying the six championship Michael Jordan with the Chicago Bulls should be considered the washongton wizard's championships because that was the last team Jordan played on. The championshops stays with the team and doesn't get transferred because the person moved to another organization.
It's been the community consensus for a top 4 (top 8 debatable) in GSL for a foreigner is on par with winning a western championship if not better.
Mouz has only won a single individual championship in 2011, TSL3. Until tuey can demonstrate that they can win multiple major individual championships prwferably LANs, I don't they deserve to be team of the year.
no your point is wrong basketball is a team sports but sc2 is 1v1 so all achievements belong to the player not to the team because its not like the team helped him to win the championship (like if he had a road of haypro, tlo, ret, sheth, and they all lost on purpose so he won that way that would be a team achievement but obviously there will never be something like that in sc2 so 1v1 events have nothing to do with the team a player is on) the achievements display the strenght of a player which helps the strenght of the lineup which helps the current team but not a team he has been on some months ago
also he doesnt say that mouz should be the top team but he says that it is between EG and mouz and liquid is not up there
(also mouz has 6 top 4 finishes in major tournaments while TL only has 5 eventhough they have a much bigger lineup and EG has 7 with almost double the amount of players so...)
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
Oh my, please get more worked up over this. Also perhaps try to have a level head while posting?
You completely look past most of liquid's achievements and immediately jump to some online team leagues? Really? There seems to be more bias in your post than there is in the entire OP.
Breathe, think, do some research, then maybe post if you are still upset.
Wuuuut, I don't agree with this at all. There were a lot of team leagues, and yes I know TL didn't participate in some of them, but if your taking those results at all then Mouz should at least be nominated, if not win the whole thing, they won back to back EG team leagues beating EG and Liquid multiple times. This is an absolutely gigantic oversight that I'm not used to seeing on TL front page articles, surprised they aren't even a little bit salty. (granted a TL news award doesn't actually mean anything so it's not that surprising)
Disagree with a lot of the article but it's well written and an enjoyable read. I understand the voting took place by more than one person but mousesports should really get recognition. If you want to weight individual performances more that's fine but they've completely outlasted every other foreigner team, even some Korean teams, and dominated every team league, and MaNa is 2nd in almost as many leagues as MKP ><.
Also it is REALLY discrediting, (and probably just a troll) to put PuMa's TvP match history in a segment relating to 1/1/1, people are just going to read that and blindly agree. It just puts fuel on the fire. Polt used the 1/1/1, he fucking created the 1/1/1 back in release, and has a far better winrate TvP, yet he doesn't get criticism. Idk maybe you just struck a nerve but it just pisses me off because PuMa's ghost control and understanding of the matchup was at one point way ahead of any other player in the world.
And you have mech TvT but no 6 gate? Doesn't MC get any love for winning some of them GSLs?
And KiWi for most creative player , among others >.>
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
Great article TL and an amazing way to start the year. Don't agree with parts of it and do agree that mousesport should get a larger recognition to being considered for team of the year.
Also at times when you consider a team of the year, are you considering the most single persons achievements or as a team. Like imagine if nobody had won anything on IM except for MVP who had won 5 GSL's, I do not think that should be considered a team of the year. Slayers is a team where literally the entire team is hugely talented and in my regard wins team of the year.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
On January 01 2012 23:00 surfinbird1 wrote: Great write-up. But I have two questions about that drama thing: Which caster called Milkis out? And what was that story with the headset stealing?
Amazing read! I just love this community, this site and the articles. Even if i don't agree with certain opinions or polls here i love TL and Esports <3 I think you should haven mentioned the shows around sc2. Like all the onemoregame stuff or sotg And i do have to agree that it is kinda weird that mouz is not even mentioned for the best team.
Completely wrong. Breakout Performance: by far Leenock. Best Game: drg vs mma is highly over-hyped and actually a poorly played game for those who understand the match-up; much more interesting would be jjakji leenock or mvp leenock regarding tvz. Best Event: how columbus could be chosen over providence is truly remarkable.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
Huk won dreamhack summer and.homestory cup while he was on.Liquid. The accolades should stay with the team.he won the championship on. It is like saying the six championship Michael Jordan with the Chicago Bulls should be considered the washongton wizard's championships because that was the last team Jordan played on. The championshops stays with the team and doesn't get transferred because the person moved to another organization.
It's been the community consensus for a top 4 (top 8 debatable) in GSL for a foreigner is on par with winning a western championship if not better.
Mouz has only won a single individual championship in 2011, TSL3. Until tuey can demonstrate that they can win multiple major individual championships prwferably LANs, I don't they deserve to be team of the year.
no your point is wrong basketball is a team sports but sc2 is 1v1 so all achievements belong to the player not to the team because its not like the team helped him to win the championship (like if he had a road of haypro, tlo, ret, sheth, and they all lost on purpose so he won that way that would be a team achievement but obviously there will never be something like that in sc2 so 1v1 events have nothing to do with the team a player is on) the achievements display the strenght of a player which helps the strenght of the lineup which helps the current team but not a team he has been on some months ago
also he doesnt say that mouz should be the top team but he says that it is between EG and mouz and liquid is not up there
(also mouz has 6 top 4 finishes in major tournaments while TL only has 5 eventhough they have a much bigger lineup and EG has 7 with almost double the amount of players so...)
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
Oh my, please get more worked up over this. Also perhaps try to have a level head while posting?
You completely look past most of liquid's achievements and immediately jump to some online team leagues? Really? There seems to be more bias in your post than there is in the entire OP.
Breathe, think, do some research, then maybe post if you are still upset.
better do some research yourself bro
Can't read eh? Count up those individual league golds that EG, TL, and Mouz got in 2011, then come back with your findings. Thank you.
On January 01 2012 22:06 sVnteen wrote: its kinda ridiculous how they even came to think about team liquid as team of the year i remember them not winning anything as a team and getting crushed by most other teams now that they bought themselves two koreans they should kinda be up there but they keep failing in teamleagues even getting all-killed in a Bo9 format by SaSe its kinda ridiculous that they even consider making a team of the year award on the website that stands for a team so that itself is kinda cute but the fact that they even make their bias so obvious is just kinda ridiculous i mean EG and mouz are also not even tied up in results in team leagues and since thats obviously where teams should be measured its just .... (and even if you add 1v1 tournaments to that mouz and EG should still be way far ahead of liquid with EG being the more achieved team in 1v1 tournaments and mouz being better in team competitions)
Awesome write up, what a great year its been. EDIT: While I'm not as angry as some people in this, thread, if you're gonna cop out with the team of year awards, you might as well put mouz in as well. Only slightly behind on individual leagues, but MILES and MILES and MILES ahead as a team.
I would describe the teams like this. Team Liquid is like Manchester United (it's a soccer team, fyi), they have a flow within the team and they feel... complete, but also welcoming to new players. They are used to winning and have some great players, but also a lot of talent.
EG would be more like Manchester City (please mind that EG has won more than City compared to United), a bought team (also, this is a bit far out, but with HuK, JYP and PuMa, come on...) with less flow and feel between the players, more like a place to get rich and get their best shots at being the best, for all the wrong reasons (I'm still a little upset about the HuK thing, mind you).
Now, mind you, this is how I feel. In my 1.5 years in the SC2 esport scene (as a watcher and low league player) TL is the team I have felt the most connected too, because of their ethics, standards and how the players present themselves, in interviews, on lans and in general when meeting their fans.
On January 01 2012 23:49 Infernux wrote: I would describe the teams like this. Team Liquid is like Manchester United (it's a soccer team, fyi), they have a flow within the team and they feel... complete, but also welcoming to new players. They are used to winning and have some great players, but also a lot of talent.
EG would be more like Manchester City (please mind that EG has won more than City compared to United), a bought team (also, this is a bit far out, but with HuK, JYP and PuMa, come on...) with less flow and feel between the players, more like a place to get rich and get their best shots at being the best, for all the wrong reasons (I'm still a little upset about the HuK thing, mind you).
Now, mind you, this is how I feel. In my 1.5 years in the SC2 esport scene (as a watcher and low league player) TL is the team I have felt the most connected too, because of their ethics, standards and how the players present themselves, in interviews, on lans and in general when meeting their fans.
Also, WhiteRa for most creative player. Boom.
how sad for players wanting money and traveling to events! you should be very angry with huk! you certainly are a good huk fan.
On January 01 2012 22:50 Badfatpanda wrote: Polt used the 1/1/1, he fucking created the 1/1/1 back in release, and has a far better winrate TvP, yet he doesn't get criticism.
Funny how someone creates a new strategy, use it to have a better winrate TvP than everyone else and should be "criticized" for it.
On January 01 2012 23:49 Infernux wrote: I would describe the teams like this. Team Liquid is like Manchester United (it's a soccer team, fyi), they have a flow within the team and they feel... complete, but also welcoming to new players. They are used to winning and have some great players, but also a lot of talent.
EG would be more like Manchester City (please mind that EG has won more than City compared to United), a bought team (also, this is a bit far out, but with HuK, JYP and PuMa, come on...) with less flow and feel between the players, more like a place to get rich and get their best shots at being the best, for all the wrong reasons (I'm still a little upset about the HuK thing, mind you).
Now, mind you, this is how I feel. In my 1.5 years in the SC2 esport scene (as a watcher and low league player) TL is the team I have felt the most connected too, because of their ethics, standards and how the players present themselves, in interviews, on lans and in general when meeting their fans.
Also, WhiteRa for most creative player. Boom.
Why did you just compare a football team to a Starcraft team? It dosen't make any sense to compare the two.
Anyways, another great write up although there were a few things i didn't agree with (TL team of the year is one of them, didn't we have a talk about bias). And whatever happened to "destiny cloudfist?"
On January 01 2012 23:46 MCDayC wrote: Awesome write up, what a great year its been. EDIT: While I'm not as angry as some people in this, thread, if you're gonna cop out with the team of year awards, you might as well put mouz in as well. Only slightly behind on individual leagues, but MILES and MILES and MILES ahead as a team.
Mouz only has the one gold in an individual league(TSL3) for this year don't they? So you have it back to front I'd say.
Sweet mother of Kerrigan, what a fantastic write up. 2011 really was a good year for SC2 in general, lots of tournaments, great improvements over the year, and many rise and fall situations with players.
My only criticism is for the foreign player of the year, it should have been Stephano!
On January 01 2012 23:46 MCDayC wrote: Awesome write up, what a great year its been. EDIT: While I'm not as angry as some people in this, thread, if you're gonna cop out with the team of year awards, you might as well put mouz in as well. Only slightly behind on individual leagues, but MILES and MILES and MILES ahead as a team.
Mouz only has the one gold in an individual league(TSL3) for this year don't they? So you have it back to front I'd say.
True, but a fuckton of 2nd and 3rd and 4ths. As I said, slightly less successful individually. But as a team, they are far and away better than TL or EG, and better than many Korean teams (in clan wars) despite what their small lineup would suggest.
Definitely had some disagreements over some of the categories, because I felt there was some bias for foreigners, but other than that, was a well-written read that really described 2011 for me.
Even the TL panel cannot avoid favoritism. I agree on quite a few of them. No need to explain those, but I beg to differ on the following based off their nominees.
- Breakout performance: Stefano. He's won quite a few tournaments. The only problem I have with calling him a breakout performer is the fact that many people have known how good this guy can be. Like I said, he's been winning a lot and winning often. T-zain's accomplishments within 2011 steams from his TSL victory. A great accomplishment especially considering what happened during that tournament, but he's been fairly quiet and selects the tournaments he competes in wisely. A good strategy, but he doesn't get as much exposure.
- Biggest News Stories. It's funny because I just read KeSPA's take on the biggest news stories the other day. I realize this is TL's SC2 awards, but it feels like something is missing. There is only one story that has enough bang by the writing panel and that is EG's pickup of HuK when you consider Liquid`s history of players, but the tides of changed in this day and age. No one is truly safe when money is involved. Sorry, nothing else really comes close to that. Maybe the EG and TSL's shenanigans, but nothing more revolutionary. Oh wait, there are more I could think of. How about Bar Craft taking off and Sundance going all out with MLG? There's been several news stories on those two alone and many of which well written. If anything I would give the award to the fact that exposure is starting to pick up more and more in the west with Sundance and Bar Craft Organizers leading the charge.
To summarize, if we only look at the writers nominations. It would have to go to EG picking up HuK. No if's or but's about it. I know I was shocked. Hell, I even said there's no way in hell that would happen and it did.
The only way I could see people selecting what Nani did is the fact that it is still fresh in people's minds because it just happened. That's the only reason. Honestly, it wasn't really a big deal until the Koreans chose to make it one. A difference in culture.
- Most entertaining player. Where the heck are the nominees on this one? I guess I could make a case for the rivalries, best international team, best Korean team and the list goes on. So the writers chose to give it to IdrA? What? If that's the case I would re-name the award: GG? or What the f*** just happened? (to keep it PG, Whhhhaaaaattttt?)
I'm sorry, but I don't see how IdrA's play is exciting at all. He's a very boring player on paper and always has been that way. The only memories we have of him are how he's going to lose and his character. Not necessarily his play style. The only series that wasn't a complete wash this year was when he played BoxeR at MLG. BoxeR crawled back to tie it and IdrA's back was against the fence going into the seventh set yet he found a way to win.
To generalize IdrA either crushes you or he loses. The only entertainment we get from it is the how. There are tons of more players that are more entertaining than IdrA. More often than not, IdrA doesn't even let the game get entertaining because he will bow out at almost any disadvantage.
- Most revolutionary. No Stephano didn't come out of nowhere. He had a lot of results in weekly cups and other online tournaments. As many players say. You really have to prove yourself at LANs. He did. The guy had the skill early on. I certainly saw it and apparently nerves aren't a factor for him. Out of the other candidates I would have given it to the Home Story Cup. Take's organization of this tournament and the commentary they had on hand with the other pro's was some of the best commentary we've had to date. In fact it was so good, other tournaments decided to have pro players commentate matches with the personalities at the same time. Even the big ones. There's a good reason why the Pro's and fans have all the best to say about that tournament. It's a great atmosphere and everyone gets to chill. Thus I give the nod to Home Story.
- Rivalry of the year: Both teams have outspoken personalities and always seem to be going at it because PuMa and HerO compete in almost every western tournament and you have such sideshows/pod casts like SotG and other crap. Anyway, when it comes to journalism I don't see how you can turn your cheek to all the bullshit surrounding these two teams because of the exposure they create. Something that SlayerS, IM and Startale have to pickup in that department.
- Team of the year (International): Like I mentioned earlier, I'm not happy with only naming two candidates when you list several for the other awards. Where's Mouz or Dignitas to name two? Dignitas had a great start at the beginning, but little finish to show for it. Mouz on the other hand have been very dominant in the quote end quote international team leagues. Hell, even FXO have been getting great exposure for themselves too including the all-kill by qxc when he was there and the fact they were the only pure international team competing in the GSL before their takeover.
- Player of the year (International): It truly could have gone to anyone of them. Absolutely torn on that subject. In terms of consistency. Stephano might be a little more consistent than HuK and Nani. If we only go with the here and now, I'd probably side with Naniwa.
Great read but there's something mindboggling me. Why there's no mention for qxc all-kill on ceremoni of the yarnor mouz got nominated for team of the year.
Thank you thank you thank you for recognizing that Columbus was actually THE mlg to watch this year. Hard to top the ultimate story line of the Korean invasion. Columbus has not been talked about enough as one or the best mlg's of the year.
Thanks for the nice article, what a good way to start 2012. I'm rewatching ThorZaINs TSL games right now and I could see him at least being worthy of a nomination for 'Most Creative Player', even though I agree with Kiwikaki winning I'm watching ThorZaIN do things that Korean Terrans have only started trying recently (sickest 1/1/1 against MC in game 5, I wonder what would have happened if he'd actually pushed off 1 base with that).
On January 01 2012 18:21 asdfOu wrote: Ummm jjajki not for break out performance but leenock is? We always knew leenock was a boss, he just paired with all the titans so he never got to show his full potential.. Jjakji on the other hand...
Agree... well Leenock like you said never showed his "full potential" (assuming he was that good or close to it shortly before GSL November) but you're right jjakji came out of nowhere. Didn't he come straight from Code B into Code A into Code S into winning GSL November? Leenock, however, has been known as a decent Zerg for about the entire year, and has been improving ever since.
Also I don't agree with Thorzain being a break out player. Yeah he's good and he came at TSL3 quite fast but I would have given Jjakji a nomination instead. If Leenock deserved the best break out player nomination, Jjakji deserved it more. Anyways I would say Jjakji > Thorzain, even. In both cases we never really knew the other player. Jjakji has been playing in some korean leagues, but no one (on TL at least) has really given much coverage on him. However, Jjakji won Code S... Thorzain beat MC, sure, but really that's his only impressive win. Fruit Dealer has been playing poorly ever since after GSL Open 1, and none of the other players Thorzain beat were notable. I mean, I really don't think Tyler nor Kas would even be able to stay in Code A consistently, if they were to make it at all. Jjakji jumped into Code S immediately and won the whole thing.
Breakout performance is an award where the story is as important as the actual opponents and, and ThorZaINs underdog in every match storyline is a lot better than Jjakji's, simply because we don't really know anything about him except he's really fucking good at playing Terran. Don't forget also that he played MC when he was still, without a shadow of a doubt, the best Protoss in the world.
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
100% agree, without a doubt TL has done more for the SC community than anyone. But when it comes to team dynamics they don't come near to EG's level. Vote should've consisted of Mouz and a few other team. At the end of the day EG takes the top spot easy, they have way too much star power/good placings for any other teams to compare.
Can someone explain or link me to the drama mentions? Particularly the last one.
• Some translator trashes every ESPORT outside of Korean Brood War, 'quits' ESPORTS after getting called out by some guy who casts games and some other guy who cut his hair.
• Some guy makes a post about a girl supposedly manipulating him steal a headset and some other girls who knew this girl show up to defend her.
• Some guy who streams a lot gets DDOS'd by some kid, and he ends up fighting his dad or something; now they're going to be on some TV show or whatever.
• Some woman can't deal with people on the internet saying some mean things about some gold-league girl she hired for her pro-gaming team, so she threatens to take legal action or something.*
• Milkis drama.
• I don't actually know.
• The player is Destiny.
• The woman is SlayerSJessica, the girl is SlayerSEve.
This has been TLMZ bringing you your daily dose of ESPORTS drama (I'm so ashamed that I can even remember these).
edit: Better add "Team Liquid awards self 'Best Team Award'" to the nominations for 'Best Drama' for the 2012 awards.
I am sorry but I find this article to be somewhat lackluster.
If you are gonna sum up all of 2011 in a single post you gotta make sure that everything is covered incl. the nominees and tbh I totally disagree with a lot of the choices for both winners and nominees. the obvious example, as mentioned by others, is Mousesports missing in the "best team award" section. Your reasoning for not including them is just invalid imo.
I also believe there are far better and "unknown" players out there to watch for in 2012 than Titan and especially Snute. BiGs and Bling being some of them and I have high hopes for 13abyknight as well though I may be biased in that choice.
However I do agree with Daybreak winning the best map award though, again, I would like to see more maps for the nomination. Shattered Temple comes to mind.
On January 02 2012 01:06 DaCruise wrote: I am sorry but I find this article to be somewhat lackluster.
If you are gonna sum up all of 2011 in a single post you gotta make sure that everything is covered incl. the nominees and tbh I totally disagree with a lot of the choices for both winners and nominees. the obvious example, as mentioned by others, is Mousesports missing in the "best team award" section. Your reasoning for not including them is just invalid imo.
I also believe there are far better and "unknown" players out there to watch for in 2012 than Titan and especially Snute. BiGs and Bling being some of them and I have high hopes for 13abyknight as well though I may be biased in that choice.
However I do agree with Daybreak winning the best map award though, again, I would like to see more maps for the nomination. Shattered Temple comes to mind.
What a way to criticised the tl.net writing staff , If you never tried writing all this stuff by your self , you won't know how much stuff you have to dig up to have a close to 99% coverage of 2011 .
On January 02 2012 00:12 StarStruck wrote: Even the TL panel cannot avoid favoritism. I agree on quite a few of them. No need to explain those, but I beg to differ on the following based off their nominees.
- Breakout performance: Stefano. He's won quite a few tournaments. The only problem I have with calling him a breakout performer is the fact that many people have known how good this guy can be. Like I said, he's been winning a lot and winning often. T-zain's accomplishments within 2011 steams from his TSL victory. A great accomplishment especially considering what happened during that tournament, but he's been fairly quiet and selects the tournaments he competes in wisely. A good strategy, but he doesn't get as much exposure.
- Biggest News Stories. It's funny because I just read KeSPA's take on the biggest news stories the other day. I realize this is TL's SC2 awards, but it feels like something is missing. There is only one story that has enough bang by the writing panel and that is EG's pickup of HuK when you consider Liquid`s history of players, but the tides of changed in this day and age. No one is truly safe when money is involved. Sorry, nothing else really comes close to that. Maybe the EG and TSL's shenanigans, but nothing more revolutionary. Oh wait, there are more I could think of. How about Bar Craft taking off and Sundance going all out with MLG? There's been several news stories on those two alone and many of which well written. If anything I would give the award to the fact that exposure is starting to pick up more and more in the west with Sundance and Bar Craft Organizers leading the charge.
To summarize, if we only look at the writers nominations. It would have to go to EG picking up HuK. No if's or but's about it. I know I was shocked. Hell, I even said there's no way in hell that would happen and it did.
The only way I could see people selecting what Nani did is the fact that it is still fresh in people's minds because it just happened. That's the only reason. Honestly, it wasn't really a big deal until the Koreans chose to make it one. A difference in culture.
- Most entertaining player. Where the heck are the nominees on this one? I guess I could make a case for the rivalries, best international team, best Korean team and the list goes on. So the writers chose to give it to IdrA? What? If that's the case I would re-name the award: GG? or What the f*** just happened? (to keep it PG, Whhhhaaaaattttt?)
I'm sorry, but I don't see how IdrA's play is exciting at all. He's a very boring player on paper and always has been that way. The only memories we have of him are how he's going to lose and his character. Not necessarily his play style. The only series that wasn't a complete wash this year was when he played BoxeR at MLG. BoxeR crawled back to tie it and IdrA's back was against the fence going into the seventh set yet he found a way to win.
To generalize IdrA either crushes you or he loses. The only entertainment we get from it is the how. There are tons of more players that are more entertaining than IdrA. More often than not, IdrA doesn't even let the game get entertaining because he will bow out at almost any disadvantage.
- Most revolutionary. No Stephano didn't come out of nowhere. He had a lot of results in weekly cups and other online tournaments. As many players say. You really have to prove yourself at LANs. He did. The guy had the skill early on. I certainly saw it and apparently nerves aren't a factor for him. Out of the other candidates I would have given it to the Home Story Cup. Take's organization of this tournament and the commentary they had on hand with the other pro's was some of the best commentary we've had to date. In fact it was so good, other tournaments decided to have pro players commentate matches with the personalities at the same time. Even the big ones. There's a good reason why the Pro's and fans have all the best to say about that tournament. It's a great atmosphere and everyone gets to chill. Thus I give the nod to Home Story.
- Rivalry of the year: Both teams have outspoken personalities and always seem to be going at it because PuMa and HerO compete in almost every western tournament and you have such sideshows/pod casts like SotG and other crap. Anyway, when it comes to journalism I don't see how you can turn your cheek to all the bullshit surrounding these two teams because of the exposure they create. Something that SlayerS, IM and Startale have to pickup in that department.
- Team of the year (International): Like I mentioned earlier, I'm not happy with only naming two candidates when you list several for the other awards. Where's Mouz or Dignitas to name two? Dignitas had a great start at the beginning, but little finish to show for it. Mouz on the other hand have been very dominant in the quote end quote international team leagues. Hell, even FXO have been getting great exposure for themselves too including the all-kill by qxc when he was there and the fact they were the only pure international team competing in the GSL before their takeover.
- Player of the year (International): It truly could have gone to anyone of them. Absolutely torn on that subject. In terms of consistency. Stephano might be a little more consistent than HuK and Nani. If we only go with the here and now, I'd probably side with Naniwa.
Taking it way too seriously man. Just a fun little article, much like the GSL ceremonies.
On January 02 2012 01:06 DaCruise wrote: I am sorry but I find this article to be somewhat lackluster.
If you are gonna sum up all of 2011 in a single post you gotta make sure that everything is covered incl. the nominees and tbh I totally disagree with a lot of the choices for both winners and nominees. the obvious example, as mentioned by others, is Mousesports missing in the "best team award" section. Your reasoning for not including them is just invalid imo.
I also believe there are far better and "unknown" players out there to watch for in 2012 than Titan and especially Snute. BiGs and Bling being some of them and I have high hopes for 13abyknight as well though I may be biased in that choice.
However I do agree with Daybreak winning the best map award though, again, I would like to see more maps for the nomination. Shattered Temple comes to mind.
What a way to criticised the tl.net writing staff , If you never tried writing all this stuff by your self , you won't know how much stuff you have to dig up to have a close to 99% coverage of 2011 .
Unfortunatly I think a 99-100% coverage is needed when making such an article. I dont think its bad. I just feel like it could have been better and more extensive.
On January 01 2012 15:24 [Erasmus] wrote: Seriously, why is Mouz not team of the year... I get that EG/Liquid probably have a few more individual results on their roster, but Mouz are the scariest foreign team. Looks incredibly biased with only 2 nominations to begin with.
Im sorry, how exactly are they scarier then either TL or EG? EG with 2 Code 2 participants, 2 Code A, and 1 Code B(?), plus a handful of rather under preforming (though still very good) players. An TL with HerO (That alone makes them Scarier then Mouz) as well as Ret (best player in Europe arguably up there in top 3) as well as Sheth an now Zenio. Mouz really only has Morrow and Thorzain, outside of those two maybe Hasuobs but not much else vs these Goliaths of the foreigner scene. I respect Mouz but to claim them team of the year and the scariest team around is false. They're extreamly good but not that good.
To everyone unhappy with the quality of this article, or unhappy with the choices therein, the Blogs section is always open for you to make your own attempt. You can never have too many "Best of" lists!
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
Huk won dreamhack summer and.homestory cup while he was on.Liquid. The accolades should stay with the team.he won the championship on. It is like saying the six championship Michael Jordan with the Chicago Bulls should be considered the washongton wizard's championships because that was the last team Jordan played on. The championshops stays with the team and doesn't get transferred because the person moved to another organization.
It's been the community consensus for a top 4 (top 8 debatable) in GSL for a foreigner is on par with winning a western championship if not better.
Mouz has only won a single individual championship in 2011, TSL3. Until tuey can demonstrate that they can win multiple major individual championships prwferably LANs, I don't they deserve to be team of the year.
no your point is wrong basketball is a team sports but sc2 is 1v1 so all achievements belong to the player not to the team because its not like the team helped him to win the championship (like if he had a road of haypro, tlo, ret, sheth, and they all lost on purpose so he won that way that would be a team achievement but obviously there will never be something like that in sc2 so 1v1 events have nothing to do with the team a player is on) the achievements display the strenght of a player which helps the strenght of the lineup which helps the current team but not a team he has been on some months ago
also he doesnt say that mouz should be the top team but he says that it is between EG and mouz and liquid is not up there
(also mouz has 6 top 4 finishes in major tournaments while TL only has 5 eventhough they have a much bigger lineup and EG has 7 with almost double the amount of players so...)
On January 01 2012 22:29 Hall0wed wrote:
On January 01 2012 19:07 Xeris wrote: TL giving itself team of the year award based on: a Ro4 (not a championship) by Jinro, and 2 championships won by HuK, who is on EG.
Mouz has won // placed top 3 in basically every single team event in 2011. They got 2nd in IPL Team Arena Challenge (only foreign team to beat Koreans?), 2 time EG Masters Cup winner, 3rd GCPL Season 2.
Even EG hasn't finished higher than 4th in its own team league, Liquid couldn't even get higher than 4th in either GCPL Season 1 or 2.
Not to mention Mouz has: Thorzain and MaNa, who both have numerous podium placements. MorroW and HasuObs are also widely considered top foreigners. How can Mouz be ignored? Because they're not as popular and don't have as good marketing?
If there is a tie - it should be between Mouz and EG , Liquid has no place there , no offense ...
Oh my, please get more worked up over this. Also perhaps try to have a level head while posting?
You completely look past most of liquid's achievements and immediately jump to some online team leagues? Really? There seems to be more bias in your post than there is in the entire OP.
Breathe, think, do some research, then maybe post if you are still upset.
better do some research yourself bro
Can't read eh? Count up those individual league golds that EG, TL, and Mouz got in 2011, then come back with your findings. Thank you.
we talked about 1v1 performance not about wins lol
On January 01 2012 15:24 [Erasmus] wrote: Seriously, why is Mouz not team of the year... I get that EG/Liquid probably have a few more individual results on their roster, but Mouz are the scariest foreign team. Looks incredibly biased with only 2 nominations to begin with.
Im sorry, how exactly are they scarier then either TL or EG? EG with 2 Code 2 participants, 2 Code A, and 1 Code B(?), plus a handful of rather under preforming (though still very good) players. An TL with HerO (That alone makes them Scarier then Mouz) as well as Ret (best player in Europe arguably up there in top 3) as well as Sheth an now Zenio. Mouz really only has Morrow and Thorzain, outside of those two maybe Hasuobs but not much else vs these Goliaths of the foreigner scene. I respect Mouz but to claim them team of the year and the scariest team around is false. They're extreamly good but not that good.
look at liquipedia they have the most top 4 finishes of any team eventhough they have the smallest roster and they did best in team events mouz also has mana and wait- he is top 5 internation tlpd while there is no liquid or EG player there? and why is hero not in top 5 korea hmmmmmmm- nor is zenio nor puma OMG
ret can not possibly be considered top 3 europe (at least not on from a standpoint of someone who knows the scene
my of the guys above ret would be (not in order so pls no rage) naniwa sase thorzain stephano nerchio beastyqt kas mana demuslim ToD (morrow?) (and since he is so passive in the scene i am not completely sure about his current level but so i would put him around the level of demuslim/tod but im certain that tod will be a beast when he comes back from korea)
On January 01 2012 15:24 [Erasmus] wrote: Seriously, why is Mouz not team of the year... I get that EG/Liquid probably have a few more individual results on their roster, but Mouz are the scariest foreign team. Looks incredibly biased with only 2 nominations to begin with.
Im sorry, how exactly are they scarier then either TL or EG? EG with 2 Code 2 participants, 2 Code A, and 1 Code B(?), plus a handful of rather under preforming (though still very good) players. An TL with HerO (That alone makes them Scarier then Mouz) as well as Ret (best player in Europe arguably up there in top 3) as well as Sheth an now Zenio. Mouz really only has Morrow and Thorzain, outside of those two maybe Hasuobs but not much else vs these Goliaths of the foreigner scene. I respect Mouz but to claim them team of the year and the scariest team around is false. They're extreamly good but not that good.
look at liquipedia they have the most top 4 finishes of any team eventhough they have the smallest roster and they did best in team events mouz also has mana and wait- he is top 5 internation tlpd while there is no liquid or EG player there? and why is hero not in top 5 korea hmmmmmmm- nor is zenio nor puma OMG
ret can not possibly be considered top 3 europe (at least not on from a standpoint of someone who knows the scene
my of the guys above ret would be (not in order so pls no rage) naniwa sase thorzain stephano nerchio beastyqt kas mana demuslim ToD (morrow?) (and since he is so passive in the scene i am not completely sure about his current level but so i would put him around the level of demuslim/tod but im certain that tod will be a beast when he comes back from korea)
Do you seriously put demuslim there instead of ret? atleast ret has won some tournaments, demuslim has done NOTHING,NOTHING AT ALL. So please...
edit: And dont start talking about his broken hands. It woudnt have changed anything, its like TLO had wrist problems, if he was healthy would he have won couple MLG's ? No. Same with demuslim.
On January 01 2012 15:24 [Erasmus] wrote: Seriously, why is Mouz not team of the year... I get that EG/Liquid probably have a few more individual results on their roster, but Mouz are the scariest foreign team. Looks incredibly biased with only 2 nominations to begin with.
Im sorry, how exactly are they scarier then either TL or EG? EG with 2 Code 2 participants, 2 Code A, and 1 Code B(?), plus a handful of rather under preforming (though still very good) players. An TL with HerO (That alone makes them Scarier then Mouz) as well as Ret (best player in Europe arguably up there in top 3) as well as Sheth an now Zenio. Mouz really only has Morrow and Thorzain, outside of those two maybe Hasuobs but not much else vs these Goliaths of the foreigner scene. I respect Mouz but to claim them team of the year and the scariest team around is false. They're extreamly good but not that good.
look at liquipedia they have the most top 4 finishes of any team eventhough they have the smallest roster and they did best in team events mouz also has mana and wait- he is top 5 internation tlpd while there is no liquid or EG player there? and why is hero not in top 5 korea hmmmmmmm- nor is zenio nor puma OMG
ret can not possibly be considered top 3 europe (at least not on from a standpoint of someone who knows the scene
my of the guys above ret would be (not in order so pls no rage) naniwa sase thorzain stephano nerchio beastyqt kas mana demuslim ToD (morrow?) (and since he is so passive in the scene i am not completely sure about his current level but so i would put him around the level of demuslim/tod but im certain that tod will be a beast when he comes back from korea)
Last I checked none outside of Morrow and Thorzain were in Code S or even A unlike those on EG an TL which already puts them at a disadvantage for the reward. Best team = best players. An also theres a nice quote that goes "close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades." Meaning if its not first its not good enough. The other two have more Golds an on larger stages. Preforming on bigger stages as well makes you better vs winning a bunch on those smaller stages. Maybe I overrated Ret a bit but he's better then some of the guys you named an yes Zenio, Puma, JYP, and HerO may not be top Koreans but they're certainly better then most top foreigners hence why they alone swing the balance away from Mouz though as well as better performances on bigger stages as well.
Also your point about them not being top 5 korean is a joke right an would get beaten by Mouz right? So any of the following aren't or could be considered not top 5 korean so they're clearly not better then all of Mouz right? Bomber, Boxer, JYP, NesTea, Tassadar, MKP, Polt, Guinepig, Dragon, Ganzi, Sc, or DRG right
On January 01 2012 19:18 Hall0wed wrote: MVP should have gotten most revolutionary, or maybe Twitch, but besides that everything is perfect. I guess you had to give Stephano something or else the fanboys may have revolted.
I kind of agree with you on the "mvp deserving the most revolutionary award". But I also think that Stephano deserved the Breakout performance of the year, while i think Huk deserves his foreign player of the year title. In early 2011, both Thorzain and Stephano were unknown to most on sc2 (good master players but no lan or online cup won) and a bit known on wc3 but without any big results. And at the end of 2011 Stephano's performance outshines Thorzain's one. Maybe they meant "breakout performance...in a tournament during the year" and not "breakout performance...of the year" but that would be a strange choice.
On January 01 2012 15:24 [Erasmus] wrote: Seriously, why is Mouz not team of the year... I get that EG/Liquid probably have a few more individual results on their roster, but Mouz are the scariest foreign team. Looks incredibly biased with only 2 nominations to begin with.
Im sorry, how exactly are they scarier then either TL or EG? EG with 2 Code 2 participants, 2 Code A, and 1 Code B(?), plus a handful of rather under preforming (though still very good) players. An TL with HerO (That alone makes them Scarier then Mouz) as well as Ret (best player in Europe arguably up there in top 3) as well as Sheth an now Zenio. Mouz really only has Morrow and Thorzain, outside of those two maybe Hasuobs but not much else vs these Goliaths of the foreigner scene. I respect Mouz but to claim them team of the year and the scariest team around is false. They're extreamly good but not that good.
look at liquipedia they have the most top 4 finishes of any team eventhough they have the smallest roster and they did best in team events mouz also has mana and wait- he is top 5 internation tlpd while there is no liquid or EG player there? and why is hero not in top 5 korea hmmmmmmm- nor is zenio nor puma OMG
ret can not possibly be considered top 3 europe (at least not on from a standpoint of someone who knows the scene
my of the guys above ret would be (not in order so pls no rage) naniwa sase thorzain stephano nerchio beastyqt kas mana demuslim ToD (morrow?) (and since he is so passive in the scene i am not completely sure about his current level but so i would put him around the level of demuslim/tod but im certain that tod will be a beast when he comes back from korea)
sVteen think about what you're saying please. TLPD values $100 tournaments as much as an MLG win and is not a good metric to use for a discussion as deep as this one. HuK who has won 3 majors in 2011 by himself does not make it into the TLPD top 5.
Ret won Assembly, won Blizzard EU, got top 8 IPL and top 4 Dreamhack. It doesn't necessarily prove he is top 3 Europe, but I can't think of many besides Naniwa and Stephano who can objectively boost better results in 2011. Thorzain, Ret and Mana all have really good results in 2011, but the majority of your list do not, and seem to be based more on your opinion than results.
I don't think sports evolve around top 4 finishes as a bragging point. The most important thing is winning major tournaments. It's definitely an added accomplishment but it's not like 4 times top 4 is worth as much as a 1st place finish, or anything like that. I'd rather win one than get top 4 20 times.
Also, to clarify this is not a discussion of whether or not one team has a stronger lineup than the other; It's about who had a better 2011. A team can win every single tournament out there and lose it's full squad in December and still have the best team performance that year. I won't deny that Mouz is incredibly skilled, but they have not been able to transition that skill into major tournament wins.
On January 01 2012 15:24 [Erasmus] wrote: Seriously, why is Mouz not team of the year... I get that EG/Liquid probably have a few more individual results on their roster, but Mouz are the scariest foreign team. Looks incredibly biased with only 2 nominations to begin with.
Im sorry, how exactly are they scarier then either TL or EG? EG with 2 Code 2 participants, 2 Code A, and 1 Code B(?), plus a handful of rather under preforming (though still very good) players. An TL with HerO (That alone makes them Scarier then Mouz) as well as Ret (best player in Europe arguably up there in top 3) as well as Sheth an now Zenio. Mouz really only has Morrow and Thorzain, outside of those two maybe Hasuobs but not much else vs these Goliaths of the foreigner scene. I respect Mouz but to claim them team of the year and the scariest team around is false. They're extreamly good but not that good.
look at liquipedia they have the most top 4 finishes of any team eventhough they have the smallest roster and they did best in team events mouz also has mana and wait- he is top 5 internation tlpd while there is no liquid or EG player there? and why is hero not in top 5 korea hmmmmmmm- nor is zenio nor puma OMG
ret can not possibly be considered top 3 europe (at least not on from a standpoint of someone who knows the scene
my of the guys above ret would be (not in order so pls no rage) naniwa sase thorzain stephano nerchio beastyqt kas mana demuslim ToD (morrow?) (and since he is so passive in the scene i am not completely sure about his current level but so i would put him around the level of demuslim/tod but im certain that tod will be a beast when he comes back from korea)
To say mouz has a scarier lineup than EG is quite frankly ludicrous. IdrA, HuK, PuMa is all I have to say, does mouz have one player that could beat any one of these guys in a Bo7? How many championships does mouz have?
Look, I think they're a great team but do not even try to compare them with EG. I still think people overlook them but there is no statistic you can show me that will prove that mouz had a better year than EG. Cheers!
On January 02 2012 02:13 KMARTRULES2 wrote: Mouz has not had the individual tournament wins to make this award, but they are easily the best foreign team in team leagues.
As for TL v EG, It's honestly a joke that you rate Zenio/Ret/HerO (Maybe Sheth) as equal to IdrA/Huk/Puma/JYP (Maybe Demuslim).
HuK won two major tournaments as Liquid in 2011 and it is not a question of lineup vs lineup, but instead an award based on the year as a whole. For example Jinro in 2011 has still achieved more than JYP has, even though JYP is in a much better spot today.
On January 01 2012 15:24 [Erasmus] wrote: Seriously, why is Mouz not team of the year... I get that EG/Liquid probably have a few more individual results on their roster, but Mouz are the scariest foreign team. Looks incredibly biased with only 2 nominations to begin with.
Im sorry, how exactly are they scarier then either TL or EG? EG with 2 Code 2 participants, 2 Code A, and 1 Code B(?), plus a handful of rather under preforming (though still very good) players. An TL with HerO (That alone makes them Scarier then Mouz) as well as Ret (best player in Europe arguably up there in top 3) as well as Sheth an now Zenio. Mouz really only has Morrow and Thorzain, outside of those two maybe Hasuobs but not much else vs these Goliaths of the foreigner scene. I respect Mouz but to claim them team of the year and the scariest team around is false. They're extreamly good but not that good.
look at liquipedia they have the most top 4 finishes of any team eventhough they have the smallest roster and they did best in team events mouz also has mana and wait- he is top 5 internation tlpd while there is no liquid or EG player there? and why is hero not in top 5 korea hmmmmmmm- nor is zenio nor puma OMG
ret can not possibly be considered top 3 europe (at least not on from a standpoint of someone who knows the scene
my of the guys above ret would be (not in order so pls no rage) naniwa sase thorzain stephano nerchio beastyqt kas mana demuslim ToD (morrow?) (and since he is so passive in the scene i am not completely sure about his current level but so i would put him around the level of demuslim/tod but im certain that tod will be a beast when he comes back from korea)
To say mouz has a scarier lineup than EG is quite frankly ludicrous. IdrA, HuK, PuMa is all I have to say, does mouz have one player that could beat any one of these guys in a Bo7? How many championships does mouz have?
Look, I think they're a great team but do not even try to compare them with EG. I still think people overlook them but there is no statistic you can show me that will prove that mouz had a better year than EG. Cheers!
HasuObs, Morrow, Thorzain, MaNa. I still think that EG's lineup for individual tournaments is stronger (More star players), But any of these guys on mouz could take a bo5 or 7 against EGs players. Hasu took Huk out 3-2 in NASL recently.
On January 02 2012 02:13 KMARTRULES2 wrote: Mouz has not had the individual tournament wins to make this award, but they are easily the best foreign team in team leagues.
As for TL v EG, It's honestly a joke that you rate Zenio/Ret/HerO (Maybe Sheth) as equal to IdrA/Huk/Puma/JYP (Maybe Demuslim).
HuK won two major tournaments as Liquid in 2011 and it is not a question of lineup vs lineup, but instead an award based on the year as a whole. For example Jinro in 2011 has still achieved more than JYP has, even though JYP is in a much better spot today.
Fair enough. TL did win a lot, especially with HuK. However in 2012 I think that EG will have that top spot.
We'll see though, anything could happen. (Haypro 3 time code S champion, cheering for you :D)
On January 02 2012 00:33 Thorzain wrote: mouz doesn't have any korean mercenaries!!
biGs is such a white dude.... Ok. Jokes aside at least he isn't a pure korean (and by not being pure i mean that he got swiss nationality)
I think you should probably add that he got his swiss nationality at like the age of 4 and has been there ever since pretty much xD he's more swiss than anything
On January 02 2012 02:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: sVteen think about what you're saying please. TLPD values $100 tournaments as much as an MLG win and is not a good metric to use for a discussion as deep as this one. HuK who has won 3 majors in 2011 by himself does not make it into the TLPD top 5.
Correct me if im wrong but TLPD takes into account who they were playing against and not what tournament - so its a freaking good metric way to compare players. The price of the tournament doesn't matter. Its who you killed on your way to the top. And sadly for MLG the way to the top might be only 4 or so BO3...
PS. I noticed that TLPD isn't MLG friendly since most of the imported (read: exchange program) koreans don't participate in western cups so its hard to use their TLPD elo since there are differences between korean and western scene.
On January 01 2012 15:24 [Erasmus] wrote: Seriously, why is Mouz not team of the year... I get that EG/Liquid probably have a few more individual results on their roster, but Mouz are the scariest foreign team. Looks incredibly biased with only 2 nominations to begin with.
Im sorry, how exactly are they scarier then either TL or EG? EG with 2 Code 2 participants, 2 Code A, and 1 Code B(?), plus a handful of rather under preforming (though still very good) players. An TL with HerO (That alone makes them Scarier then Mouz) as well as Ret (best player in Europe arguably up there in top 3) as well as Sheth an now Zenio. Mouz really only has Morrow and Thorzain, outside of those two maybe Hasuobs but not much else vs these Goliaths of the foreigner scene. I respect Mouz but to claim them team of the year and the scariest team around is false. They're extreamly good but not that good.
look at liquipedia they have the most top 4 finishes of any team eventhough they have the smallest roster and they did best in team events mouz also has mana and wait- he is top 5 internation tlpd while there is no liquid or EG player there? and why is hero not in top 5 korea hmmmmmmm- nor is zenio nor puma OMG
ret can not possibly be considered top 3 europe (at least not on from a standpoint of someone who knows the scene
my of the guys above ret would be (not in order so pls no rage) naniwa sase thorzain stephano nerchio beastyqt kas mana demuslim ToD (morrow?) (and since he is so passive in the scene i am not completely sure about his current level but so i would put him around the level of demuslim/tod but im certain that tod will be a beast when he comes back from korea)
To say mouz has a scarier lineup than EG is quite frankly ludicrous. IdrA, HuK, PuMa is all I have to say, does mouz have one player that could beat any one of these guys in a Bo7? How many championships does mouz have?
Look, I think they're a great team but do not even try to compare them with EG. I still think people overlook them but there is no statistic you can show me that will prove that mouz had a better year than EG. Cheers!
Ah, Apocalypse, yes, this guy plays an astonishing amount of games, on his division there is only another guy that plays as much, this guy probably does play 50 or so games per day and he wins the majority of them, he's top 20 GM in Korea and he favors to do fast strategies on 1 base, I have a replay pack of him from older patches and I've messaged him about streaming but he said QIM is setting his stream up, he's a really good player and I hope he has great success because he is working hard for it.
On January 02 2012 02:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: sVteen think about what you're saying please. TLPD values $100 tournaments as much as an MLG win and is not a good metric to use for a discussion as deep as this one. HuK who has won 3 majors in 2011 by himself does not make it into the TLPD top 5.
Correct me if im wrong but TLPD takes into account who they were playing against and not what tournament - so its a freaking good metric way to compare players. The price of the tournament doesn't matter. Its who you killed on your way to the top.
It's really not. These Playhem Dailies are nice, but no one tries as hard in them as they do for Dreamhack or anything other major tournament. The same goes for TLOpens, Zotac cups, etc. It's just an extra set of practice games that might win you a couple hundred dollars, even if you're facing versus someone good.
Awesome article but i wanna mention one point, at the Team of the Year International part i was sad that mouz wasnt mentioned. For me mouz is the team of the year. Outstanding players, nice finishes, mostly entertaining games, IPLTA runner-up (where TL failed and EG was scared). You shouldve at least mentioned their name
The think the biggest crime in this write-up is that Dual Sight was nominated for map of the year when the map has the worst possible PvZs ever. Worse than steppes of war.
On January 02 2012 03:15 Chronald wrote: ROFL TL saying they are as good as EG in 2011.
Check the results of every tournament, TL doesn't compare at all.
Why do so many people have the memory of goldfish?
I can understand if you disagree with the philosophy and think team events should carry more weight than individual awards, in which case Mouz has been the strongest team in foreign team events, but in terms of individual tournament accomplishments (not counting overall successes like EG's house) then EG and TL are neck and neck. Puma wasn't in EG when he won NASL1 and HuK wasn't in EG when he won HSC3 and DH.
This isn't the "Team of December 2011" award. The gut reaction for most people is probably "EG is better right now" and unfortunately, people only post their gut reactions. >.> When you think about it more with all of 2011 in context, it makes sense.
On January 02 2012 02:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: sVteen think about what you're saying please. TLPD values $100 tournaments as much as an MLG win and is not a good metric to use for a discussion as deep as this one. HuK who has won 3 majors in 2011 by himself does not make it into the TLPD top 5.
Correct me if im wrong but TLPD takes into account who they were playing against and not what tournament - so its a freaking good metric way to compare players. The price of the tournament doesn't matter. Its who you killed on your way to the top. And sadly for MLG the way to the top might be only 4 or so BO3...
PS. I noticed that TLPD isn't MLG friendly since most of the imported (read: exchange program) koreans don't participate in western cups so its hard to use their TLPD elo since there are differences between korean and western scene.
It's a well known flaw in TLPD that $100 cups inflate rankings. That makes TLPD a good estimate, but not accurate.
I think TL really erred in calling itself the number one foreign team. Even with a tie. Most of their players are slumping and there haven't been that many impressive finishes. It seems pretty biased for TL to name itself so.
Sorry if somebody already wrote it but is it just me that am dissapointed TLO wasn't even a nominee for the most creative player of he year? I know he hasn't shown that many tournament victories as the other nominees. Still I cannot imagine what way of thinking led to this decision. TLO's creativity simply has to be taken under consideration, he's shown a LOT of entertaining games despite his losses!!!
TL is really biased site, i am just realising it now,.... agreed with naniwa and thorzain here, Mouz is still the best foreign team, at least without the help of Koreans (Hero, puma), even with koreans I still put mouz on par with EG since they got JYP, they recently played crazily good in IPL tac, competing with some of the best Korean team, like MVP, IM, Slayers and win a lot.
I am actually sad that some of the TL mod/admin try to cover their ass with results of TEAM LIQUID, completely ignore Mouz in the team nominees.
WTF sc2 is 1v1 games so team results dont count?
Ok so why the fuck is Bisu is the best protoss in 2011 because he won individuals league??? or because he performed well in team league, why the fuck it not jangbi the only toss who won OSL. broodwar is a 1v1 team as well. Should fantasy be the best player of the year ??? because of OSL performance? DongRaeGu would not be rated highly as of right now without his Team league performance.
Ban me or warn me if dislike my true comment..
And it funny there are 2 winners of 1 prize hahahaha EG and Liquid tied, wtf are they trying here, be nice to each other after the blow rivalry award?
Very nice write-up, thanks for the post. I agree with it for the most part, but the cop-out of EG/TL "tying" for team of the year is lame Just have some balls and pick one over the other
On January 02 2012 04:01 tuho12345 wrote: Oh plz Mouz only winning in team league and a few tourneys with T-Zain. Can't compare them to TL, TL is bigger and competing in GSL right now.
I don't know why this is such a hard concept to grasp--how good a year a team has is not equivalent to the win percentages of their players. It has to do with successful promotion of their brand, high-profile tournament wins, and the like. In this, TL and EG, like it or not, are indeed ahead of the pack. TL vs EG itself is more debatable, but both teams have had many high-profile tournament wins this year, and both are pretty close in terms of fanbases and promotion; EG, I think, has had slightly better results, and TL has been slightly better in promotion and name-brand power (EG has had some scrape-ups along the way, such as the Milkis incident). Given that, it doesn't seem to me to be at all strange to give them an overall tie in such a broadly-worded category.
It doesn't mean your favorite team sucks. It is what it is.
Thank you for the write-up. Great effort and it looks really good and i agree with most. Still, some things come off as sugarcoated, instead of hart hitting truths supported with facts.
I find it a little bit strange that TL closed the other thread about Mouz bashing....
anyway, I don't really agree with the choices made here: -Kiwikaki as most creative? Painuser/Idra pretty much summed it up on ITG that this isn't really true. Even Whithra would have been better. -(Korea)Team of the year is IM? well, I think MVP and Nestea are player of the Year but as Team itself i think Slayers would have been better, because they didn't start with the big guns. -And yeah, the international Team of the year... And why isn't Puma vs MC at NASL 1 on the list for Game of the year??
First, truly happy to see Snute mentioned. A remarkable player, and a truly cool person as well. And to do some self promotion, did an interview with him back at ESWC.
I won't argue with the list in itself like some people do here, because there truly isn't a point in doing that. You might disagree with some of their selections, as you should, but there are limits to how far you should go.
With the Team award, I guess a few people share my view on what criteria should be used. My view isn't that you should award them by what victories / achievements they have in solo tournaments, but more what the team have done as a hole. In team tournaments. Only problem is that there isn't any offline team tournaments outside of Korea.
Next year you should include what ciriterias you used for the different awards, just to shut up a few of the people complaining = )
Great read. I think its fine that EG & TL tied for best team. However I think next year EG might be way above them. It's kind of a dumb thing to say though, a year is so long, 100 big tournaments, anything can happen. Goodluck all!
Really great write up, just seems that the awards were only picked for the most "famous" once, not the actual best nominees. Might be a mater of opinions, why wouldn't you let the community vote ?
On January 02 2012 04:01 tuho12345 wrote: Oh plz Mouz only winning in team league and a few tourneys with T-Zain. Can't compare them to TL, TL is bigger and competing in GSL right now.
Mouz is in GSL too....
How is that an achievement when they got invited ? Its not like they won it or anything, this goes for both arguments for TL and Mouz
A player is more revolutionary than a streaming service or a completely new tournament idea (HSC)? Sorry but I have to disagree about that. Stephano calling the "Most Revolutionary" is bullshit. Maybe the best player or the nicest guy or whatever but not this award.
I mean i can partly understand that he shocked the scene by beating "A-Koreans" at IPL3 but other Foreigners also did that, even if they were not that successful. On the other hand twitch tv (and all the other streaming services) brought us new possibilities to follow our heros and learn from them. HSC transformed the idea of LAN and brought it to a whole new level. Imho these things were more revolutionary than a single player beating some koreans (which i know could be done - because I followed Grubby and the wc3 scene).
If you measure a teams success by their earnings I think TL and EG would come out pretty much even if you take into account when the players were and were not on the teams.
First, I want to thank the guys, who made this review. It takes a ton of effort and time to do something like that.
Now, while I don´t want to beat a dead horse, I still want to share my opinion about the international team award.
I´m completely fine with Mousesports not winning the award, because you can look at it from different viewpoints. If you go by individual results, then EG should probably win it, if you go by positive influence in the international scene, then it is probably Liquid and lastly if you go by team results, it is without a doubt Mouz.
My problem is, that Mousesports was not even nominated, hell it was not even mentioned. No honorable mention, not a single sentence. You shouldn´t make a international team award and then completely neglect actual team results. Mousesports absolutely dominated these tournaments and could even stand up to premier Korean teams. Add to that, that aside of Empire Mouz is the single top class team without Koreans, you shouldn´t be surprised by a backlash of the community. Because completely ignoring Mouz achievements shows either ignorance or bias. And going by the normal quality of the front page articles, it is probably the latter.
On January 02 2012 05:05 Sphaero wrote: First, I want to thank the guys, who made this review. It takes a ton of effort and time to do something like that.
Now, while I don´t want to beat a dead horse, I still want to share my opinion about the international team award.
I´m completely fine with Mousesports not winning the award, because you can look at it from different viewpoints. If you go by individual results, then EG should probably win it, if you go by positive influence in the international scene, then it is probably Liquid and lastly if you go by team results, it is without a doubt Mouz.
My problem is, that Mousesports was not even nominated, hell it was not even mentioned. No honorable mention, not a single sentence. You shouldn´t make a international team award and then completely neglect actual team results. Mousesports absolutely dominated these tournaments and could even stand up to premier Korean teams. Add to that, that aside of Empire Mouz is the single top class team without Koreans, you shouldn´t be surprised by a backlash of the community. Because completely ignoring Mouz achievements shows either ignorance or bias. And going by the normal quality of the front page articles, it is probably the latter.
On January 02 2012 05:05 Sphaero wrote: First, I want to thank the guys, who made this review. It takes a ton of effort and time to do something like that.
Now, while I don´t want to beat a dead horse, I still want to share my opinion about the international team award.
I´m completely fine with Mousesports not winning the award, because you can look at it from different viewpoints. If you go by individual results, then EG should probably win it, if you go by positive influence in the international scene, then it is probably Liquid and lastly if you go by team results, it is without a doubt Mouz.
My problem is, that Mousesports was not even nominated, hell it was not even mentioned. No honorable mention, not a single sentence. You shouldn´t make a international team award and then completely neglect actual team results. Mousesports absolutely dominated these tournaments and could even stand up to premier Korean teams. Add to that, that aside of Empire Mouz is the single top class team without Koreans, you shouldn´t be surprised by a backlash of the community. Because completely ignoring Mouz achievements shows either ignorance or bias. And going by the normal quality of the front page articles, it is probably the latter.
Yeah, i think Mouz should have been nominated too.
Awesome article, great read, but I find it absolutely despicable that antiga was a nominee for best map, and sad as well that dual sight was the other. For shame! Easily the worst, most inaccurate section of the awards.
Terminus? Calm before the storm? Crevasse? Katrina? Cloud kingdom?
All infinitely better picks imo.... I suppose you can argue for dual sight even though it was imbalanced because we saw some great games on it, but antiga shipyard is only good compared to all other blizzard maps. Compared to gsl and custom maps, antiga is garbage.
A shame, but the quality of the rest of the article makes up for it. Still, it's a detail I'd like to see improved in the future.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
Yeah, none of these are really controversial except for the foreign team of the year I guess, which really should have been a tie between Mouz and EG, not Liquid and EG.
Also: Titan is awesome. Look forward to seeing him in the future.
On January 02 2012 05:05 Sphaero wrote: First, I want to thank the guys, who made this review. It takes a ton of effort and time to do something like that.
Now, while I don´t want to beat a dead horse, I still want to share my opinion about the international team award.
I´m completely fine with Mousesports not winning the award, because you can look at it from different viewpoints. If you go by individual results, then EG should probably win it, if you go by positive influence in the international scene, then it is probably Liquid and lastly if you go by team results, it is without a doubt Mouz.
My problem is, that Mousesports was not even nominated, hell it was not even mentioned. No honorable mention, not a single sentence. You shouldn´t make a international team award and then completely neglect actual team results. Mousesports absolutely dominated these tournaments and could even stand up to premier Korean teams. Add to that, that aside of Empire Mouz is the single top class team without Koreans, you shouldn´t be surprised by a backlash of the community. Because completely ignoring Mouz achievements shows either ignorance or bias. And going by the normal quality of the front page articles, it is probably the latter.
Yeah, i think Mouz should have been nominated too.
I'm a HUGE fanboy of Tyler, but shit.. If I were Mouz, I would have said the same damn thing on twitter. I appreciate Tyler's response, too, however. It's just I think I'd be just as bitter if I were Mouz about not even getting a mention. It was a bit of a slap in the face.. I'm inclined to believe it was intentional--but, whatever.
OP: "That, and we don't want to pick TL and get yelled at by our readers for bias, or pick EG and get yelled at by our readers for meta-bias."
Or get yelled at by your readers for entirely ignoring... Mouz.. ffs.
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
But see, that's Liquipedia so it clearly must be SUPER BIASED. God forbid TL gets nominated or an award for anything on teamliquid.net. -_-
Dude, 1/3 of both teams achievements are from last year on that page and Mouz is still beating both of them...?
+Puma wasnt even on EG when he won NASL 1 and i think Huk was on TL when he won Dreamhack summer and homestory right?
So that puts Liquid at 5 and EG at 4?
Also I (badly) worked out the prize winnings of both teams and can up with TL: 142k EG: 137k
I'm sure there were a few errors but it seems about even . And I used sc2earnings.com which doesn't take into account team leagues, not sure how that affects things
On the front page of reddit.com./r/starcraft Mouz claims EG is miles ahead of Liquid in team comparison
Original Post (Click) I still think EG-Mouz rivalry of the year. I dont know much about the TL-EG one but Mouz and EG continue to make posts insulting one another.
A twitter rivalry does not compare to legit rivalry between players at major tournaments
I don't understand how anyone could think it does
Speaking of twitter that is kind of a classless comment from mousesports. It is entirely expected that forum posters will bicker about this kind of thing, but I don't see why they would want to participate in that silliness
On January 02 2012 05:40 Phayt wrote: A twitter rivalry does not compare to legit rivalry between players at major tournaments
I don't understand how anyone could think it does
Speaking of twitter that is kind of a classless comment from mousesports. It is entirely expected that forum posters will bicker about this kind of thing, but I don't see why they would want to participate in that silliness
I disagree. I'd have the same reaction if I were Mouz; class would have been to have nominated them (or OBVIOUSLY have at least mentioned them) in the team award.
I have to agree with the posters who missed mouz as a nominee for the team award. I missed a number of teams, such as: complexity Fnatic dignitas mousesports
Yes we know EG or TL might be the best, but the least you can do is show some appreciation for other teams by nominating them.
On January 01 2012 23:49 Infernux wrote: I would describe the teams like this. Team Liquid is like Manchester United (it's a soccer team, fyi), they have a flow within the team and they feel... complete, but also welcoming to new players. They are used to winning and have some great players, but also a lot of talent.
EG would be more like Manchester City (please mind that EG has won more than City compared to United), a bought team (also, this is a bit far out, but with HuK, JYP and PuMa, come on...) with less flow and feel between the players, more like a place to get rich and get their best shots at being the best, for all the wrong reasons (I'm still a little upset about the HuK thing, mind you).
Now, mind you, this is how I feel. In my 1.5 years in the SC2 esport scene (as a watcher and low league player) TL is the team I have felt the most connected too, because of their ethics, standards and how the players present themselves, in interviews, on lans and in general when meeting their fans.
Also, WhiteRa for most creative player. Boom.
Make ManCity into Chelsea and you might have a match...Tradition and the feeling of connection you've described is not something you can create by not buying the best players possible when you have the chance. It takes time for the fans to get used to a team on the scene having success they haven't had before. Keeping the football analogy, Real Madrid is basically doing the same thing, yet have a huge fanbase and great success by tradition created in time. These things aren't mutually exclusive.
Also if we regard SC as a common competitive sport - and I think that is the goal of any e-sport - there'll always be only one winner at the end of each tournament (team or person, but let's not get hung up on that) and every player wants to be that one. Ultimately, no one will remember the nice, loyal guy, who stayed with the same team, always placing 27th at the qualifiers, so I don't think any player should be frowned upon for trying to make their chances better at winning. There can be a number of reasons for joining another team and in my opinion better salary itself is valid enough, but that's just me.
On January 02 2012 05:36 CakeMaster wrote: On the front page of reddit.com./r/starcraft Mouz claims EG is miles ahead of Liquid in team comparison
Original Post (Click) I still think EG-Mouz rivalry of the year. I dont know much about the TL-EG one but Mouz and EG continue to make posts insulting one another.
Dude that wasn't a rivalry. It was one episode of twitter smack talk. How the hell does that make rivalry of the year in anyway.
On January 02 2012 05:40 Phayt wrote: A twitter rivalry does not compare to legit rivalry between players at major tournaments
I don't understand how anyone could think it does
Speaking of twitter that is kind of a classless comment from mousesports. It is entirely expected that forum posters will bicker about this kind of thing, but I don't see why they would want to participate in that silliness
I disagree. I'd have the same reaction if I were Mouz; class would have been to have nominated them (or OBVIOUSLY have at least mentioned them) in the team award.
They didn't complain about not being mentioned. They complained about the tie between TL and EG (and whoever wrote that tweet demonstrated his inability to count).
It's very classless and worded in a very much dick way. Whoever is behind that twitter is pissing on the good reputation all the Mouz players and management have built so far (not just because of this tweet).
At the end of the day, if they don't like it, they can have their own award posts at their respective websites, wherever those may be. I'm sure they have a large community following and quality (and unbiased) writers around... somewhere.
On January 02 2012 05:40 Phayt wrote: A twitter rivalry does not compare to legit rivalry between players at major tournaments
I don't understand how anyone could think it does
Speaking of twitter that is kind of a classless comment from mousesports. It is entirely expected that forum posters will bicker about this kind of thing, but I don't see why they would want to participate in that silliness
I disagree. I'd have the same reaction if I were Mouz; class would have been to have nominated them (or OBVIOUSLY have at least mentioned them) in the team award.
Well then you would be just as wrong. I'm not going to argue about whether or not they should have been mentioned because it's entirely irrelevant. Mouz is not entitled to anything, and even if they believe that they've been snubbed or something silly like that, it should be beneath them to get snippy and belittle other teams in a public manner, over a little award blurb.
It's just inappropriate. That kind of stuff is the territory of nobody forum posters, not a professional team's official media outlet.
On January 02 2012 05:40 Phayt wrote: A twitter rivalry does not compare to legit rivalry between players at major tournaments
I don't understand how anyone could think it does
Speaking of twitter that is kind of a classless comment from mousesports. It is entirely expected that forum posters will bicker about this kind of thing, but I don't see why they would want to participate in that silliness
I disagree. I'd have the same reaction if I were Mouz; class would have been to have nominated them (or OBVIOUSLY have at least mentioned them) in the team award.
Well then you would be just as wrong. I'm not going to argue about whether or not they should have been mentioned because it's entirely irrelevant. Mouz is not entitled to anything, and even if they believe that they've been snubbed or something silly like that, it should be beneath them to get snippy and belittle other teams in a public manner, over a little award blurb.
It's just inappropriate. That kind of stuff is the territory of nobody forum posters, not a professional team's official media outlet.
Ok, we'll just accept the fact that we're talking about two different things: nomination/twitter responses. We can agree that you think the nomination is irrelevant and I think the twitter response is irrelevant. See, we worked that out like big boys.
Calm before the storm should have been at least nominated, probably replace dual sight. I think calm and daybreak were my favorite maps. Agree with most other picks, mouz deserves a nomination at least for best int'l team.
Was a lot of fun to read and thank you for doing it!
Best team of the year (international) seems a bit strange. IMO it should be either Mouse or FXO or IM.
There should be some kind of criteria. Is it a team with no Koreans? Is it a team that is controlled outside Korea? Is the result counted on individual basis or as a team? Is it any team with mixed Koreans and foreigners?
Now the criteria seem to be: team controlled outside of Korea with max 2 Koreans and only counting individual results.
Seems a bit far stretched to get the right winners in my opinion...
Edit: ...or just call it most popular team and be done with it
On January 02 2012 05:40 Phayt wrote: A twitter rivalry does not compare to legit rivalry between players at major tournaments
I don't understand how anyone could think it does
Speaking of twitter that is kind of a classless comment from mousesports. It is entirely expected that forum posters will bicker about this kind of thing, but I don't see why they would want to participate in that silliness
I disagree. I'd have the same reaction if I were Mouz; class would have been to have nominated them (or OBVIOUSLY have at least mentioned them) in the team award.
Well then you would be just as wrong. I'm not going to argue about whether or not they should have been mentioned because it's entirely irrelevant. Mouz is not entitled to anything, and even if they believe that they've been snubbed or something silly like that, it should be beneath them to get snippy and belittle other teams in a public manner, over a little award blurb.
It's just inappropriate. That kind of stuff is the territory of nobody forum posters, not a professional team's official media outlet.
Ok, we'll just accept the fact that we're talking about two different things: nomination/twitter responses. We can agree that you think the nomination is irrelevant and I think the twitter response is irrelevant. See, we worked that out like big boys.
If you weren't talking about the twitter response, why did you quote my post regarding it, bold that section even, and proceed to disagree with me?
On January 02 2012 05:40 Phayt wrote: A twitter rivalry does not compare to legit rivalry between players at major tournaments
I don't understand how anyone could think it does
Speaking of twitter that is kind of a classless comment from mousesports. It is entirely expected that forum posters will bicker about this kind of thing, but I don't see why they would want to participate in that silliness
I disagree. I'd have the same reaction if I were Mouz; class would have been to have nominated them (or OBVIOUSLY have at least mentioned them) in the team award.
Well then you would be just as wrong. I'm not going to argue about whether or not they should have been mentioned because it's entirely irrelevant. Mouz is not entitled to anything, and even if they believe that they've been snubbed or something silly like that, it should be beneath them to get snippy and belittle other teams in a public manner, over a little award blurb.
It's just inappropriate. That kind of stuff is the territory of nobody forum posters, not a professional team's official media outlet.
Ok, we'll just accept the fact that we're talking about two different things: nomination/twitter responses. We can agree that you think the nomination is irrelevant and I think the twitter response is irrelevant. See, we worked that out like big boys.
If you weren't talking about the twitter response, why did you quote my post regarding it, bold that section even, and proceed to disagree with me?
I guess you're fishing for an argument. I will answer your question though: I didn't say I wasn't talking about the twitter response, I said I think it's irrelevant to my point that they should have been nominated. K, let's quit this.
On January 02 2012 06:12 -Strider- wrote: I HATE PEOPLE WHO CAN'T REMEMBER HOW GOOD LIQUID WAS THE FIRST HALF OF THE YEAR, THEY WERE THE BEST FOREIGN TEAAAMMMM :ALSfkiwjfqw9rf0q
This
For 10 months out of 12, no other team was even close on accomplishments.
On January 02 2012 06:29 EsMors wrote: Very nice article! I agree on many points, but I can't understand why FOrGG is not one of the three players to watch in 2012.
Write for the foreign crowds on a site that caters primarily to that demographic. You don't really need their opinions anyways when you know whos who of the best and what to watch for.
On January 02 2012 05:18 -orb- wrote: Awesome article, great read, but I find it absolutely despicable that antiga was a nominee for best map, and sad as well that dual sight was the other. For shame! Easily the worst, most inaccurate section of the awards.
Terminus? Calm before the storm? Crevasse? Katrina? Cloud kingdom?
All infinitely better picks imo.... I suppose you can argue for dual sight even though it was imbalanced because we saw some great games on it, but antiga shipyard is only good compared to all other blizzard maps. Compared to gsl and custom maps, antiga is garbage.
A shame, but the quality of the rest of the article makes up for it. Still, it's a detail I'd like to see improved in the future.
Antiga got on the list because it's the most balanced map statistically in the pool. For the players we spoke to, balance was a split between Daybreak and Antiga. Terminus is not a balanced map, and there are so many versions of it, with important changes it's impossible to pick one. Calm Before the Storm is too new to really qualify. Crevasse is an awful map, you must be joking. Katrina hasn't been played in a single major tournament and it's a remake of a BW map. Cloud Kingdom might be the map of 2012, who knows!
On January 02 2012 06:17 flagg wrote: Was a lot of fun to read and thank you for doing it!
Best team of the year (international) seems a bit strange. IMO it should be either Mouse or FXO or IM.
There should be some kind of criteria. Is it a team with no Koreans? Is it a team that is controlled outside Korea? Is the result counted on individual basis or as a team? Is it any team with mixed Koreans and foreigners?
Now the criteria seem to be: team controlled outside of Korea with max 2 Koreans and only counting individual results.
Seems a bit far stretched to get the right winners in my opinion...
Edit: ...or just call it most popular team and be done with it
We viewed FXO as a Korean team because of it's participation in the GSTL and KSL, and it's merger with fOu. Teams that weren't GSTL regulars, nor made exclusively of Koreans (Team aLive, for example) were considered for the international award. We took teamleagues into account for the international award, but came to the conclusion that the foreign scene really lacks a teamleague that is up to the GSTL standard.
I can't speak for anyone else on this, but personally, I think eight teams is far too few for a teamleague, and that scheduling conflicts played too large a role in each teamleague to make the results too meaningful. Of course, however, I was cheering hard for Mousesports in the IPL TAC, and there's no denying that Liquid's defeat in that tournament was bad or that EG's absence in that event doesn't do them favors. But hopefully in 2012, we're going to have more team competition to factor into the equation.
Moreover, the award was called 'Team of the Year' and not 'Best Team at the End of the Year' or 'Best Team in Team Events'. Otherwise, FXO or SlayerS would've won the Korean award. No, I feel Team of the Year recognizes that teams do a lot more than just playing teamleagues. Teams play a big role in individual leagues as well, and in all kinds of extra curricular stuff. I think 'Team of the Year' is a much more broad designation than most people seem to feel it is.
And I didn't want to give Honorable Mentions at all, but obviously I didn't win that argument...
On January 02 2012 06:29 EsMors wrote: Very nice article! I agree on many points, but I can't understand why FOrGG is not one of the three players to watch in 2012.
Write for the foreign crowds on a site that caters primarily to that demographic. You don't really need their opinions anyways when you know whos who of the best and what to watch for.
The point was really to single out players who people wouldn't look at normally. I think everyone is going to be watching forGG, but it wouldn't have been so good of an article if I said; "Players to Watch For: forGG, MVP, MMA, GuMiHo, Bomber"
On January 02 2012 07:01 WesleyLok wrote: Didn't Teamliquid go like 0-9 in IPL team arena and ended up with 1-10 or something? How the hell are they "tied for team of the year" ???
Is it because this is their site and the writers aren't allowed to write otherwise?
Nah, it was mostly because of their singular awards and the foreign team events weren't weighted as heavily as those single awards. In the panel, I actually had Slayers/Mouz as my teams of the year, but I regressed my position when the term team of the year was defined. If it was strictly on team events, those would have been my two teams, but when you look at the players on said team and what team had the best players, etc. in singular competitions with team championships just a secondary plus, then IM romps for the Korean side and the International side is more hazy.
On January 02 2012 05:18 -orb- wrote: Awesome article, great read, but I find it absolutely despicable that antiga was a nominee for best map, and sad as well that dual sight was the other. For shame! Easily the worst, most inaccurate section of the awards.
Terminus? Calm before the storm? Crevasse? Katrina? Cloud kingdom?
All infinitely better picks imo.... I suppose you can argue for dual sight even though it was imbalanced because we saw some great games on it, but antiga shipyard is only good compared to all other blizzard maps. Compared to gsl and custom maps, antiga is garbage.
A shame, but the quality of the rest of the article makes up for it. Still, it's a detail I'd like to see improved in the future.
Antiga got on the list because it's the most balanced map statistically in the pool. For the players we spoke to, balance was a split between Daybreak and Antiga. Terminus is not a balanced map, and there are so many versions of it, with important changes it's impossible to pick one. Calm Before the Storm is too new to really qualify. Crevasse is an awful map, you must be joking. Katrina hasn't been played in a single major tournament and it's a remake of a BW map. Cloud Kingdom might be the map of 2012, who knows!
On January 02 2012 06:17 flagg wrote: Was a lot of fun to read and thank you for doing it!
Best team of the year (international) seems a bit strange. IMO it should be either Mouse or FXO or IM.
There should be some kind of criteria. Is it a team with no Koreans? Is it a team that is controlled outside Korea? Is the result counted on individual basis or as a team? Is it any team with mixed Koreans and foreigners?
Now the criteria seem to be: team controlled outside of Korea with max 2 Koreans and only counting individual results.
Seems a bit far stretched to get the right winners in my opinion...
Edit: ...or just call it most popular team and be done with it
We viewed FXO as a Korean team because of it's participation in the GSTL and KSL, and it's merger with fOu. Teams that weren't GSTL regulars, nor made exclusively of Koreans (Team aLive, for example) were considered for the international award. We took teamleagues into account for the international award, but came to the conclusion that the foreign scene really lacks a teamleague that is up to the GSTL standard.
I can't speak for anyone else on this, but personally, I think eight teams is far too few for a teamleague, and that scheduling conflicts played too large a role in each teamleague to make the results too meaningful. Of course, however, I was cheering hard for Mousesports in the IPL TAC, and there's no denying that Liquid's defeat in that tournament was bad or that EG's absence in that event doesn't do them favors. But hopefully in 2012, we're going to have more team competition to factor into the equation.
Moreover, the award was called 'Team of the Year' and not 'Best Team at the End of the Year' or 'Best Team in Team Events'. Otherwise, FXO or SlayerS would've won the Korean award. No, I feel Team of the Year recognizes that teams do a lot more than just playing teamleagues. Teams play a big role in individual leagues as well, and in all kinds of extra curricular stuff. I think 'Team of the Year' is a much more broad designation than most people seem to feel it is.
And I didn't want to give Honorable Mentions at all, but obviously I didn't win that argument...
On January 02 2012 06:29 EsMors wrote: Very nice article! I agree on many points, but I can't understand why FOrGG is not one of the three players to watch in 2012.
Write for the foreign crowds on a site that caters primarily to that demographic. You don't really need their opinions anyways when you know whos who of the best and what to watch for.
The point was really to single out players who people wouldn't look at normally. I think everyone is going to be watching forGG, but it wouldn't have been so good of an article if I said; "Players to Watch For: forGG, MVP, MMA, GuMiHo, Bomber"
Thanks for the answer!
I agree with most of what you wrote and I don’t want to bother you more.
Although it would have been fun if you replied with: There are only two foreigner teams, the other “teams” are only players with the same agent
I enjoyed the writeup, was a good year for esports that i think caught the attention of alot of new people. Seeing how big the sc2 scene has become is really cool.
Reading the thread is also quite entertaining, so many people who are reposting stuff without taking arguments made earlier into account. Best team of 2011 could've been better defined in the OP, but it's amusing how some find the conclusion so controversial, especially after the criterias have been clarified.
SC2/Esports in 2012 Figthing!! May it keep on growing
In the end, it was just too close to call. In this category, we award the sole tie. That, and we don't want to pick TL and get yelled at by our readers for bias, or pick EG and get yelled at by our readers for meta-bias.
This article was very well done for the most part, very thoughtful of TL to do a recap of the year like this to remind us of what has made StarCraft 2 and its fans gain so much in this last year.
However, I do have to disagree with the selection for "biggest news story". Naniwa incident was the most over-exposed and overreacted to story by far, but the actions which actually occurred are definitely dwarfed by stuff like the criminal actions of the organizers of PPSL.
Also, I think one of the real big stories that wasn't even included on here was when players publicly released information of their overdue pay and their discussion of which organizations fail in player treatment. Surprisingly, the issue really hadn't been brought to the public eye until then and it really highlights one of the most important things that needs that needs to be improved in 2012, which is more oversight and enforcement of proper player treatment and payment by tournament organizations and holding sponsors to their agreements promptly.
Not a fan of daybreak winning map of the year. Maybe it's just bad luck on my part but MVP vs TOP game 1 is really the only outstanding game I can remember on that map. Perhaps somebody could give me some recommendations of great games played on it?
I'm sorry but TL is nowhere near as good as team as EG is, I would even argue that there are other teams that are better than TL aswell, like dignitas and mouz, they have better, more succesful players and better tournament results in general.
What exactly is this team award based on? because it definitely isn't success or player's skill? It seems like it's a popularity contest, in which case TL should obviously be the winner, but you don't hand out team awards based on popularity. Hell, even Empire posted better results than Liquid last year.
I think this is a general problem on TL.net, it's this blind bias for everything that is TL or related to TL, there were teams who did much better than TL last year but they get no credit whatsoever, no they don't even get nominated. Really, really disappointed.
User was warned for not reading the thread, where he would've discovered his question answered on the previous page.
On January 02 2012 08:11 doko100 wrote: I'm sorry but TL is nowhere near as good as team as EG is, I would even argue that there are other teams that are better than TL aswell, like dignitas and mouz, they have better, more succesful players and better tournament results in general.
What exactly is this team award based on? because it definitely isn't success or player's skill? It seems like it's a popularity contest, in which case TL should obviously be the winner, but you don't hand out team awards based on popularity. Hell, even Empire posted better results than Liquid last year.
I think this is a general problem on TL.net, it's this blind bias for everything that is TL or related to TL, there were teams who did much better than TL last year but they get no credit whatsoever, no they don't even get nominated. Really, really disappointed.
Well, TL said that they didn't count the Team leagues because they think it's uncomparable with GSTL. But now you can also say, hey, maybe they didn't want to count that, because they were pretty bad at those and mouz would have won. Which one is it now? I have nothing against Teams who say they are the best, but then they can't call them not biased. But whatever, they would have been always discussions and with whatever you choose, some people will always be unhappy
People need to stop taking these awards so seriously, jesus. It's just a little thing for fun.
Stop crying over Mouz not being nominated or " bias " and go make your own list in the blogs section, or better yet start your own sc2 community site and leave this one alone. When the TL awards are done on a grand stage with real trophies you can start complaining.
IdrA won over Destiny for most entertaining? What in the world? We all know IdrA is better but Destiny is so much more entertaining, which is why he gets so many viewers.
On January 02 2012 08:11 doko100 wrote: I'm sorry but TL is nowhere near as good as team as EG is, I would even argue that there are other teams that are better than TL aswell, like dignitas and mouz, they have better, more succesful players and better tournament results in general.
You could argue that, but that would only demonstrate your inability to actually count.
Again, for 10 months out of 12 months total in 2011, there wasn't a single team that came even CLOSE to matching TL's overall results. Then EG stepped it up in October, which is why the tie is somewhat justified. It's only barely justified if we're actually looking at the whole of 2011, but whatever let's call it justified. However to claim that Dignitas and mouz have better tournament results in general is just... I don't even know.
Don't call others biased and then proceed to completely disregard reality.
On January 02 2012 08:11 doko100 wrote: I'm sorry but TL is nowhere near as good as team as EG is, I would even argue that there are other teams that are better than TL aswell, like dignitas and mouz, they have better, more succesful players and better tournament results in general.
What exactly is this team award based on? because it definitely isn't success or player's skill? It seems like it's a popularity contest, in which case TL should obviously be the winner, but you don't hand out team awards based on popularity. Hell, even Empire posted better results than Liquid last year.
I think this is a general problem on TL.net, it's this blind bias for everything that is TL or related to TL, there were teams who did much better than TL last year but they get no credit whatsoever, no they don't even get nominated. Really, really disappointed.
Well, TL said that they didn't count the Team leagues because they think it's uncomparable with GSTL. But now you can also say, hey, maybe they didn't want to count that, because they were pretty bad at those and mouz would have won. Which one is it now? I have nothing against Teams who say they are the best, but then they can't call them not biased. But whatever, they would have been always discussions and with whatever you choose, some people will always be unhappy
Are you serious? A page earlier I said that we looked at the team leagues, but didn't think that they were important enough to override the fact that Liquid and EG dominated the individual medals table for 12 months. Do you understand that TL.net and TLAF-Liquid` are different entities? We didn't poll HayprO and TLO and from that decided that TL was the best. We had a bunch of people together, and we hashed it out, and figured there wasn't enough daylight between the teams that we could call a winner.
On January 01 2012 19:18 Hall0wed wrote: MVP should have gotten most revolutionary, or maybe Twitch, but besides that everything is perfect. I guess you had to give Stephano something or else the fanboys may have revolted.
I kind of agree with you on the "mvp deserving the most revolutionary award". But I also think that Stephano deserved the Breakout performance of the year, while i think Huk deserves his foreign player of the year title. In early 2011, both Thorzain and Stephano were unknown to most on sc2 (good master players but no lan or online cup won) and a bit known on wc3 but without any big results. And at the end of 2011 Stephano's performance outshines Thorzain's one. Maybe they meant "breakout performance...in a tournament during the year" and not "breakout performance...of the year" but that would be a strange choice.
Stephano was not a "good master player" in early 2011. In fact he used to be top 10 EU ladder since october 2010 (with the aka Sat) and he reached top 1 in early december with a very good ratio (like 75%). At this moment he started to do some online cups in order to not just be a "ladder hero". Then we know what happened: 4 sundayGo4sc2 in a row (at this moment the level of these weekly cups was really really high), some french lans won etc..
I like article and graphics, very slick, Mousesports though could have gotten a mention between best foreign teams (as definitely best ''pure'' foreign team -.^
I don't understand what people are thinking when they post here. Jinro getting to RO4 in the GSL is still the best foreigner accomplishment to date and I see that alone as a good enough reason for TL to be considered team of the year.
Also classless comment by mouz. I don't know who runs that twitter but I don't like them.
Cool article. Lots of good stuff in it. Some random thoughts though:
- I litterally went O.O when I saw map nominees. What that good with antiga? And hasnt Dual Sight got a lot of those "isnt it time this map is removed from tournies" comments? And I also agree personally that it isnt THAT good of a map. Daybreak is fine, and also a good winner. Nominees should be, in my humble opinion, Metalopolis, TDA, Daybreak. Metal made it incredibly far even though its such an early made map. TDA is just an overall super solid map. Can hardly remember any complaints about it at all, and it even made it into the ladder pool, which is a feat in itself. Metal for overall 2011 performance, TDA for being super solid and making it into the ladder pool, Daybreak for producing awesome (the best?) games. - MCs ceremony is so awesome! - Slightly disappointed with the choice of the word "entertaining" about Idra. He sure deserves to be on the list for something, but im not sure if its for his "entertainment value". - Somewhat agree with the point made earlier about team EG/TL/Mouz. Dont need to repeat it. - Very much disagreeing with MMA-DRG as best game. I know a lot of people probably will disagree with me, but I was very disappointed by MMA not making a single ghost. 2-3 ghosts could have decided the game much earlier, or even better, had MMA "went MVP" on DRG and made 10, 15 or even 20 ghosts, i dont think the game would have been close. I think people are somewhat blinded by it being the deciding game 7 of the best SC2 final (which it should probably get an award for!). To me, TOP - MVP is probably the winner of best game (imagine that game being game 7 of a GSL final.....omfg), possibly rivaled by Nestea - sC. - And yep, really looking forward to see TITAN in action 2012!
On January 02 2012 07:01 WesleyLok wrote: Didn't Teamliquid go like 0-9 in IPL team arena and ended up with 1-10 or something? How the hell are they "tied for team of the year" ???
Is it because this is their site and the writers aren't allowed to write otherwise?
That happend at the end of the year. Look at their past achivements.
I think the most entertaining player award should have had more merit on actual in-game entertainment instead of just idra getting it for raging the most.
Marineking put on some insanely entertaining and fun games. Any game with marine king was entertaining.
Whaa? Thorzain isn't as big a surprise as Leenock winning MLG, then coming in 2nd at GSL. TSL3 isn't nearly as big an event as either of the other two, so biggest breakout is defined in part by the grandeur of the event as well.
On January 02 2012 09:36 bruteMax wrote: Whaa? Thorzain isn't as big a surprise as Leenock winning MLG, then coming in 2nd at GSL. TSL3 isn't nearly as big an event as either of the other two, so biggest breakout is defined in part by the grandeur of the event as well.
Tzain was relatively unknown prior to tsl, leenock wasn't
Good write up general, lots of effort to be commended.. but
You guys DID kinda fuck Mouz for best international team.. given that theyve dominated EG and TL in all the teamleagues this year. If you want to measure a team then surely the teamleagues are the best place to go. Jesus, even Empire did better in this respect this year.
And as far as "1on1" stuff.. sure they might not have quite as many 1st places, but the sheer amount of 2nd places MaNa alone has is impressive. Its not like Mouz fails on LAN, the form they show in the teamleagues is consistant with their play in big events.
Also as a side note, just my opinion that i think hasnt been articulated regarding performance of a particular player as part of one team or another. In the case of Huk, because he's the easiest example, not a dig at any teams in particular: Even if he won an event while on Liquid early in the year, the fact that they lost that player to another team means his accomplishments for them are reduced. Great, you picked up a championship with a guy, that was great, but you know what? He left you. You LOST a star player, and that is a tally against that people seem to ignore in these cases. In fact this type of debate is why teamleagues really should be more of an important factor in your decision making process, because the line is slightly blurry when its individual success; Its more apparantly theirs than the teams.
A page earlier I said that we looked at the team leagues, but didn't think that they were important enough to override the fact that Liquid and EG dominated the individual medals table for 12 months.
That's why when I wrote my response to the article I said quote end quote team leagues. Yes, it's very bush league and WGTour Clan League had less bullshit and more prominence. As for the Individual Leagues, er it's even hard for me to say any team really dominated. If we're talking about the top twelve to ten players to place in each tournament then sure. It's even hard for me to say IM and Slayer's at the same time if we're talking about who won, won.
That's why we have individual titles for best player. A team incorporates much more than just individual results and we have to look at the full picture opposed to just the pieces. ;/
If we're talking solely about exposure then TL will always be at the top of the list because of the content.
Looking over the other teams that have done well is a pretty big dis.
To the people that think that mouz should be team of the year, ill prove why they are not:
TL: Blizzard EU, Dreamhack Winter, Dreamhack Summer, HSC3 EG: IPL1, MLG Orlando, MLG North America Invitational, IEM Guangzhou, Asus ROG, IEM Cologne, NASL Season 2 Mouz: TSL3, EGMC Season 5, EGMC Season 6
So as you can see, mouz achievements dont stack up to tl's achievements and certaintly not eg's achievements. Mouz is just not cut out for the lan tournaments, where all the money and fame is at. If they want to be best team of the year in 2012, they need to win lan events.
On January 02 2012 10:32 Regime wrote: huk leaving TL was way bigger than naniwa... and a tie between EG and TL no way EG wins hands down bigger names more success
I don't think huk leaving TL was bigger because with the naniwa controversy, it had several different aspects involved with it, there was the drama of mlg involved, naniwa switching teams, controversy between mlg and gomtv, how gomtv reacted, do we blame gomtv for having a shitty system? So many problems raised from just that one event.
its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I'm glad you didn't try to put all the people in this thread in the same room to make this list up. Just hundreds of people shouting out their own opinions with very selective memory, would have taken forever...
I loved the article but staying awake skimming through this thread just makes me want to shoot myself+ Show Spoiler +
and people believing that EG-Mouz was a bigger rivalry than EG-Liquid with me
..
Biggest achievement of the year goes to Liquid'Jinro imho, haven't cheered like I did for him in Season 1 for anything else than Arsenal before! Here's to a Great year of Starcraft and a great year here on TL. Cheers!
On a personal note, thank you so much for the award!!!! I was feeling a little down on mahself, and this writeup came totally out of the blue and made me be like "C:"
Though I strongly disagree with some of the winners I still found the thread really nice. It took me back throughout the last couple of months (you left out a lot of stuff or almost all of the stuff of the first half of the year) and I enjoyed the ride : )
well written. However, imo the awards had a heavy foreign bias and I strongly disagree with a lot of the winners. But we are the foreign community so i guess that's understandable.
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I don't think people have their panties in a wad because Mouz didn't win. I think they do because Mouz wasn't mentioned.
You said, "mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players"--isn't that AT LEAST good enough to be......... . ... .. .. mentioned?
On January 02 2012 05:18 -orb- wrote: Awesome article, great read, but I find it absolutely despicable that antiga was a nominee for best map, and sad as well that dual sight was the other. For shame! Easily the worst, most inaccurate section of the awards.
Terminus? Calm before the storm? Crevasse? Katrina? Cloud kingdom?
All infinitely better picks imo.... I suppose you can argue for dual sight even though it was imbalanced because we saw some great games on it, but antiga shipyard is only good compared to all other blizzard maps. Compared to gsl and custom maps, antiga is garbage.
A shame, but the quality of the rest of the article makes up for it. Still, it's a detail I'd like to see improved in the future.
Antiga got on the list because it's the most balanced map statistically in the pool. For the players we spoke to, balance was a split between Daybreak and Antiga. Terminus is not a balanced map, and there are so many versions of it, with important changes it's impossible to pick one. Calm Before the Storm is too new to really qualify. Crevasse is an awful map, you must be joking. Katrina hasn't been played in a single major tournament and it's a remake of a BW map. Cloud Kingdom might be the map of 2012, who knows!
On January 02 2012 06:17 flagg wrote: Was a lot of fun to read and thank you for doing it!
Best team of the year (international) seems a bit strange. IMO it should be either Mouse or FXO or IM.
There should be some kind of criteria. Is it a team with no Koreans? Is it a team that is controlled outside Korea? Is the result counted on individual basis or as a team? Is it any team with mixed Koreans and foreigners?
Now the criteria seem to be: team controlled outside of Korea with max 2 Koreans and only counting individual results.
Seems a bit far stretched to get the right winners in my opinion...
Edit: ...or just call it most popular team and be done with it
We viewed FXO as a Korean team because of it's participation in the GSTL and KSL, and it's merger with fOu. Teams that weren't GSTL regulars, nor made exclusively of Koreans (Team aLive, for example) were considered for the international award. We took teamleagues into account for the international award, but came to the conclusion that the foreign scene really lacks a teamleague that is up to the GSTL standard.
I can't speak for anyone else on this, but personally, I think eight teams is far too few for a teamleague, and that scheduling conflicts played too large a role in each teamleague to make the results too meaningful. Of course, however, I was cheering hard for Mousesports in the IPL TAC, and there's no denying that Liquid's defeat in that tournament was bad or that EG's absence in that event doesn't do them favors. But hopefully in 2012, we're going to have more team competition to factor into the equation.
Moreover, the award was called 'Team of the Year' and not 'Best Team at the End of the Year' or 'Best Team in Team Events'. Otherwise, FXO or SlayerS would've won the Korean award. No, I feel Team of the Year recognizes that teams do a lot more than just playing teamleagues. Teams play a big role in individual leagues as well, and in all kinds of extra curricular stuff. I think 'Team of the Year' is a much more broad designation than most people seem to feel it is.
And I didn't want to give Honorable Mentions at all, but obviously I didn't win that argument...
On January 02 2012 06:29 EsMors wrote: Very nice article! I agree on many points, but I can't understand why FOrGG is not one of the three players to watch in 2012.
Write for the foreign crowds on a site that caters primarily to that demographic. You don't really need their opinions anyways when you know whos who of the best and what to watch for.
The point was really to single out players who people wouldn't look at normally. I think everyone is going to be watching forGG, but it wouldn't have been so good of an article if I said; "Players to Watch For: forGG, MVP, MMA, GuMiHo, Bomber"
You really think Crevasse is such a bad map that I must be joking? I most certainly am not joking. Crevasse was a revolutionary map that really improved the map scene overall in sc2. More expansions, interesting attack paths, actual interesting usage of destructable rocks (the first partial block on a ramp like that too iirc which is used all the time now), the first map with an in-base expansion, etc. It was one of the best maps ever in SC2 specifically because the in-base expansion with its rich vespene geyser allowed excellent players to prepare specific builds for that map that would give them an edge. It allowed a ton of creativity, and it wasn't that poorly balanced.
One of the best maps in the history of SC2. I find it comical that you seem to think it's so atrocious.
And actually looking at the statistics, it's one of the most balanced maps to date.... what rock have you been living under that you think it's such a garbage map?
Great article, summed things up nicely, wouldn't have minded a mention of mouz sports though. They've been ever present and often don't quite get the air time they deserve.
Would love to see a Team Liquid players top 10 moments of the year as well.
On January 02 2012 09:36 bruteMax wrote: Whaa? Thorzain isn't as big a surprise as Leenock winning MLG, then coming in 2nd at GSL. TSL3 isn't nearly as big an event as either of the other two, so biggest breakout is defined in part by the grandeur of the event as well.
Anyone who had watched Leenock play in GSL would have seen that he was incredibly talented with decent results. It was only time before those decent results turned into something bigger. Him breaking out would not really be a surprise to many.
On January 02 2012 09:36 bruteMax wrote: Whaa? Thorzain isn't as big a surprise as Leenock winning MLG, then coming in 2nd at GSL. TSL3 isn't nearly as big an event as either of the other two, so biggest breakout is defined in part by the grandeur of the event as well.
Anyone who had watched Leenock play in GSL would have seen that he was incredibly talented with decent results. It was only time before those decent results turned into something bigger. Him breaking out would not really be a surprise to many.
Anyone who watches the korean weekly saw him as well. He certainly didn't come out of nowhere except to people not in tune with the korean scene
Great article but I thought the descriptions of the "worst drama" nominees were kind of tasteless and out of context. The one about Jessica actually WAS a serious case, it's just difficult to grasp how different that kind of topic is in Korea and the States.
On January 02 2012 00:33 Thorzain wrote: mouz doesn't have any korean mercenaries!!
They have Swedish mercenaries picked up right before major title wins ;o
lolol :D
nice writeup and congrats to the winners. happy new year
sad to see tasteless and artosis not getting awards tho
team of the year imo goes strongly to EG. better content, more stuff going on with announcements (aswell as announcements of announcements), more achievements and their players being in the spotlight alot more than TL xD not to mention their great international pro house and their recent travel to slayers house
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I don't think people have their panties in a wad because Mouz didn't win. I think they do because Mouz wasn't mentioned.
You said, "mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players"--isn't that AT LEAST good enough to be......... . ... .. .. mentioned?
not really. winning, even a team league, is still largely individual. you practice with your team and receive some support from them, but honestly that comes into play more in individual leagues more than team leagues. team leagues are all online, you're not there together talking and giving each other advice (unless you're eg cuz we're the best) you're all sitting at home playing your own individual matches and winning or losing on your own. and even the practice, most people are more likely to practice with friends and regular practice partners, whether theyre on their team or not. its the extraneous stuff that really defines a team, particularly outside of korea.
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I don't think people have their panties in a wad because Mouz didn't win. I think they do because Mouz wasn't mentioned.
You said, "mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players"--isn't that AT LEAST good enough to be......... . ... .. .. mentioned?
not really. winning, even a team league, is still largely individual. you practice with your team and receive some support from them, but honestly that comes into play more in individual leagues more than team leagues. team leagues are all online, you're not there together talking and giving each other advice (unless you're eg cuz we're the best) you're all sitting at home playing your own individual matches and winning or losing on your own. and even the practice, most people are more likely to practice with friends and regular practice partners, whether theyre on their team or not. its the extraneous stuff that really defines a team, particularly outside of korea.
hey greg ur team sounds pretty sweet, ill join for 4k a month
On January 02 2012 09:36 bruteMax wrote: Whaa? Thorzain isn't as big a surprise as Leenock winning MLG, then coming in 2nd at GSL. TSL3 isn't nearly as big an event as either of the other two, so biggest breakout is defined in part by the grandeur of the event as well.
Anyone who had watched Leenock play in GSL would have seen that he was incredibly talented with decent results. It was only time before those decent results turned into something bigger. Him breaking out would not really be a surprise to many.
Anyone who watches the korean weekly saw him as well. He certainly didn't come out of nowhere except to people not in tune with the korean scene
Meh, I had my eye on Leenock even when he was failing in Code A, but when I watched him (heck, when I still watch him) I keep dreaming of Leenock in 2 years or so.
To me, a Leenock fan, seeing him make the grand finals of a GSL, win an MLG and be generally accepted as one of the best zergs in the world in the space of a couple of months is a shock.
However, Thorzain definitely is more surprising than Leenock. Leenock's growth is what's surprising, but he had some good games even last year and people already had expectations for the future for him. Thorzain on the other hand...well as the article says, most people were probably saying "Who?" the entire time through TSL3. And now he's one of the most respected terran players from Europe.
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I don't think people have their panties in a wad because Mouz didn't win. I think they do because Mouz wasn't mentioned.
You said, "mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players"--isn't that AT LEAST good enough to be......... . ... .. .. mentioned?
not really. winning, even a team league, is still largely individual. you practice with your team and receive some support from them, but honestly that comes into play more in individual leagues more than team leagues. team leagues are all online, you're not there together talking and giving each other advice (unless you're eg cuz we're the best) you're all sitting at home playing your own individual matches and winning or losing on your own. and even the practice, most people are more likely to practice with friends and regular practice partners, whether theyre on their team or not. its the extraneous stuff that really defines a team, particularly outside of korea.
hey greg ur team sounds pretty sweet, ill join for 4k a month
On January 02 2012 05:40 Phayt wrote: A twitter rivalry does not compare to legit rivalry between players at major tournaments
I don't understand how anyone could think it does
Speaking of twitter that is kind of a classless comment from mousesports. It is entirely expected that forum posters will bicker about this kind of thing, but I don't see why they would want to participate in that silliness
Im not bickering, its more of a statement. I just wanted to show it... and add some words of my own. For fans the EG-TL Rivalry would be the top, but if it were a rivalry between players and owners (of the team) it would be EG-Mouz.
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I don't think people have their panties in a wad because Mouz didn't win. I think they do because Mouz wasn't mentioned.
You said, "mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players"--isn't that AT LEAST good enough to be......... . ... .. .. mentioned?
not really. winning, even a team league, is still largely individual. you practice with your team and receive some support from them, but honestly that comes into play more in individual leagues more than team leagues. team leagues are all online, you're not there together talking and giving each other advice (unless you're eg cuz we're the best) you're all sitting at home playing your own individual matches and winning or losing on your own. and even the practice, most people are more likely to practice with friends and regular practice partners, whether theyre on their team or not. its the extraneous stuff that really defines a team, particularly outside of korea.
hey greg ur team sounds pretty sweet, ill join for 4k a month
egs a poor team we cant afford that
at least not anymore, after HuK + IdrA + Puma + JYP took up the four 4k positions EG had...
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I don't think people have their panties in a wad because Mouz didn't win. I think they do because Mouz wasn't mentioned.
You said, "mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players"--isn't that AT LEAST good enough to be......... . ... .. .. mentioned?
not really. winning, even a team league, is still largely individual. you practice with your team and receive some support from them, but honestly that comes into play more in individual leagues more than team leagues. team leagues are all online, you're not there together talking and giving each other advice (unless you're eg cuz we're the best) you're all sitting at home playing your own individual matches and winning or losing on your own. and even the practice, most people are more likely to practice with friends and regular practice partners, whether theyre on their team or not. its the extraneous stuff that really defines a team, particularly outside of korea.
hey greg ur team sounds pretty sweet, ill join for 4k a month
egs a poor team we cant afford that
at least not anymore, after HuK + IdrA + Puma + JYP took up the four 4k positions EG had...
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
Yeah? I have not seen anything comparable to tl.net by EG. EG is the more successful team though. So in this regard a tie is okay.
On January 02 2012 11:43 Day[9] wrote: Such an incredible writeup! Read every word :D
On a personal note, thank you so much for the award!!!! I was feeling a little down on mahself, and this writeup came totally out of the blue and made me be like "C:"
TY TL! :D :D :D
Down on yourself!? How can someone who could command a thousand nerds to build a castle out of Spaghetti ever be down on himself!
i dont know why all you guys discuss the awards? i think this is a unique "eSports" thing to complain about everything everywhere everytime. never saw or read discussions and comments about other awards like oscar, nobel prize, other sports awards. ... the internet is a weird place
but to reflect the year i made my own awards:
Douche of the Year: Naniwa Team hurting eSport the most: EG - because in other Sports the "throw money at people" behavior already caused problems and created disgusting leagues and results.
In the German Ultra Scene for Football we would say saying: "Statt Gier und Kommerz, Spieler mit Herz!" transalted: Instead of greed and commerce, a player with heart.
Sure, throw Mouz in as well, but i'm not sure if people can take this much epicness at once without running in circles all day saying : OMG OMG OMG SO EPIC, TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE DAMAGEEEE !
On January 02 2012 19:49 Latty wrote: i dont know why all you guys discuss the awards? i think this is a unique "eSports" thing to complain about everything everywhere everytime. never saw or read discussions and comments about other awards like oscar, nobel prize, other sports awards. ... the internet is a weird place
but to reflect the year i made my own awards:
Douche of the Year: Naniwa Team hurting eSport the most: EG - because in other Sports the "throw money at people" behavior already caused problems and created disgusting leagues and results.
In the German Ultra Scene for Football we would say saying: "Statt Gier und Kommerz, Spieler mit Herz!" transalted: Instead of greed and commerce, a player with heart.
So your awards insult people? Great.
You think people don't complain about the Oscars or pro sports awards? Apparently you must live in a bubble. Any award ever given will be hotly debated by die hard fans unless it is a situation where the best person is so much better than the competition in every way that it can't even be debated.
Tl's really in between a rock and a hard place. One of the great things about TeamLiquid is the website and the life they breathe into esports with the website. As such though it's difficult for them to do awesome articles like these because they're a participating competing team. Whether it's difficult because of there own bias or because of their audience's assumed bias is irrelevant; it's there, regardless in the former or latter.
But what's a team? That topics been hash over and over but Idra has it right:
team leagues are all online, you're not there together talking and giving each other advice (unless you're eg cuz we're the best) you're all sitting at home playing your own individual matches and winning or losing on your own. and even the practice, most people are more likely to practice with friends and regular practice partners, whether theyre on their team or not.
I love the team leagues and I hope the foreign scene makes a strong home for it in 2012. However SC2 is not designed as a team oriented sport, such as football or baseball; it's player verse player, mano a mano. Arguably the team leagues are pseudonym as the battles are still 1v1 and not 2's/3's/4's. That issue makes deciding "Best Team" much more difficult and arguably undecidable. What exactly are you judging on? Results are surely influential, but it's not just about the individual (the antithesis of "team). It seems it should be about the team itself. What do we think when we hear "SlayerS" or "ACE". Why are players proud to put on the clan tag of one team and what does it mean to represent one or the other?
I think attacking this article for the team rivarly elements a tad foolish, although TL didn't do its self any favors not adding in Mouz at least to the nominations. Other than the team leagues it seems a majority of people (imo) agree they don't neccesarily win out on the issue but you still gotta give props where its due; life's still highschool no matter where you go.
Gj TL, loved the article and all you do. GG 2011. GLHF 2012. (Eg, you're cool. I'm a TL guy, but you're ok.) + Show Spoiler +
I read through 25 pages of this stuff because I was looking for one simple post. I felt I earned the right to post.+ Show Spoiler +
Naniwa really comes off like a total jerk to me. Imo. And Idra came off as really mature. Go figure.
Why do people say EG "bought" all of their players like it's a horrible team and that TL is not like that at all?? Idra - was on a team with everybody on EG before he went to korea (and I think after still too) is really good friends with them. When he leaves CJ to play SC2, EG is an obvious choice for him. JYP is the same story as idra... old teammate of Puma, had no team, Puma gets him to join EG. Sure you could say they "bought" Puma/Huk, but I'm neither of them were getting anywhere near as much as EG gives, and is that a bad thing to want players to make a lot of money?
Now lets look at TL... tyler/Nony wasn't really on a team, was on estro for a bit, came home to finish school/get married and whatever, wins TSL2 and gets signed by TL. Sheth was on FXO, playing super well. The instant TL hears he is leaving FXO they sign him. Ret was on LowLandLions (I think that's who it was at the time) was playing well, everybody knew he was a beast, TL signs him from there. Hero and Zenio, both on oGs and TL signs them both.
How are these 2 teams different other than the fact that EG has more money to offer players when they sign them?
The only award I thought was unjustified was for MC's murloc ceremony. Giving it to MC for the taunting Idra at MLG Orlando would have been perfectly fine but the murloc hoodie didn't even deserve to be in the same category as the rest of the nominees.
Also, qxc throwing his bandana in the crowd after all-killing IM?
On January 02 2012 20:38 aike wrote: Why do people say EG "bought" all of their players like it's a horrible team and that TL is not like that at all??
Now lets look at TL... tyler/Nony wasn't really on a team, was on estro for a bit, came home to finish school/get married and whatever, wins TSL2 and gets signed by TL. Sheth was on FXO, playing super well. The instant TL hears he is leaving FXO they sign him. Ret was on LowLandLions (I think that's who it was at the time) was playing well, everybody knew he was a beast, TL signs him from there. Hero and Zenio, both on oGs and TL signs them both.
How are these 2 teams different other than the fact that EG has more money to offer players when they sign them?
Pretty sure it was Liquid'Nony that won TSL2. Sheth and Ret were natural picks as BW oldtimers who knew each other and the rest of the team very well (Sheth had nothing in common with FXO anyway, he is a Root player, and sadly there is no more Root). Hero and Zenio lived with TL members for several years - TL so far has only signed oGs players from Korea, and only when it was a move that everyone wanted.
In fact, Huk is the ONLY player TL signed that didn't have any real connection to the team from before he was signed. And we all know how that turned out, so yeah...
Having more money IS the difference. It creates unfair competition. It's why we can't have more actual Starcraft teams like Liquid and Root.
A lot of fans wants to see teams compete in Starcraft, not in how successful they are as a business or who can spend more. It boggles my mind how people fail to understand this reasoning (whether they agree with it or not). It's as hard as trying to explain to some people why capitalism is, in fact, not the best thing since sliced bread. -_-
On January 02 2012 05:18 -orb- wrote: Awesome article, great read, but I find it absolutely despicable that antiga was a nominee for best map, and sad as well that dual sight was the other. For shame! Easily the worst, most inaccurate section of the awards.
Terminus? Calm before the storm? Crevasse? Katrina? Cloud kingdom?
All infinitely better picks imo.... I suppose you can argue for dual sight even though it was imbalanced because we saw some great games on it, but antiga shipyard is only good compared to all other blizzard maps. Compared to gsl and custom maps, antiga is garbage.
A shame, but the quality of the rest of the article makes up for it. Still, it's a detail I'd like to see improved in the future.
Antiga got on the list because it's the most balanced map statistically in the pool. For the players we spoke to, balance was a split between Daybreak and Antiga. Terminus is not a balanced map, and there are so many versions of it, with important changes it's impossible to pick one. Calm Before the Storm is too new to really qualify. Crevasse is an awful map, you must be joking. Katrina hasn't been played in a single major tournament and it's a remake of a BW map. Cloud Kingdom might be the map of 2012, who knows!
On January 02 2012 06:17 flagg wrote: Was a lot of fun to read and thank you for doing it!
Best team of the year (international) seems a bit strange. IMO it should be either Mouse or FXO or IM.
There should be some kind of criteria. Is it a team with no Koreans? Is it a team that is controlled outside Korea? Is the result counted on individual basis or as a team? Is it any team with mixed Koreans and foreigners?
Now the criteria seem to be: team controlled outside of Korea with max 2 Koreans and only counting individual results.
Seems a bit far stretched to get the right winners in my opinion...
Edit: ...or just call it most popular team and be done with it
We viewed FXO as a Korean team because of it's participation in the GSTL and KSL, and it's merger with fOu. Teams that weren't GSTL regulars, nor made exclusively of Koreans (Team aLive, for example) were considered for the international award. We took teamleagues into account for the international award, but came to the conclusion that the foreign scene really lacks a teamleague that is up to the GSTL standard.
I can't speak for anyone else on this, but personally, I think eight teams is far too few for a teamleague, and that scheduling conflicts played too large a role in each teamleague to make the results too meaningful. Of course, however, I was cheering hard for Mousesports in the IPL TAC, and there's no denying that Liquid's defeat in that tournament was bad or that EG's absence in that event doesn't do them favors. But hopefully in 2012, we're going to have more team competition to factor into the equation.
Moreover, the award was called 'Team of the Year' and not 'Best Team at the End of the Year' or 'Best Team in Team Events'. Otherwise, FXO or SlayerS would've won the Korean award. No, I feel Team of the Year recognizes that teams do a lot more than just playing teamleagues. Teams play a big role in individual leagues as well, and in all kinds of extra curricular stuff. I think 'Team of the Year' is a much more broad designation than most people seem to feel it is.
And I didn't want to give Honorable Mentions at all, but obviously I didn't win that argument...
On January 02 2012 06:33 Avs wrote:
On January 02 2012 06:29 EsMors wrote: Very nice article! I agree on many points, but I can't understand why FOrGG is not one of the three players to watch in 2012.
Write for the foreign crowds on a site that caters primarily to that demographic. You don't really need their opinions anyways when you know whos who of the best and what to watch for.
The point was really to single out players who people wouldn't look at normally. I think everyone is going to be watching forGG, but it wouldn't have been so good of an article if I said; "Players to Watch For: forGG, MVP, MMA, GuMiHo, Bomber"
You really think Crevasse is such a bad map that I must be joking? I most certainly am not joking. Crevasse was a revolutionary map that really improved the map scene overall in sc2. More expansions, interesting attack paths, actual interesting usage of destructable rocks (the first partial block on a ramp like that too iirc which is used all the time now), the first map with an in-base expansion, etc. It was one of the best maps ever in SC2 specifically because the in-base expansion with its rich vespene geyser allowed excellent players to prepare specific builds for that map that would give them an edge. It allowed a ton of creativity, and it wasn't that poorly balanced.
One of the best maps in the history of SC2. I find it comical that you seem to think it's so atrocious.
And actually looking at the statistics, it's one of the most balanced maps to date.... what rock have you been living under that you think it's such a garbage map?
Not balanced in Korea. Crevasse was the go-to map for terran players for the whole first half of the year, I can't think of a single non-terran who liked it, and eventually, even the terrans hated it because they hated playing TvT on it. And you can't seriously give Crevasse credit for something like a backdoor expansion; there were tons of BW maps that had backdoor expansions, it's far from a new development in mapmaking.
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
Yeah? I have not seen anything comparable to tl.net by EG. EG is the more successful team though. So in this regard a tie is okay.
myEG.net doesn't compete with TL.net, nor should it be expected to. TL.net and TLAF-Liquid are two different things. The better comparison is TeamLiquidPro and myEG.net, which are vaguely similar.
lol @ Team Liquid awarding themselves "Team of the year" :D Mousesports is the best foreigner team by far, and they are the only foreigner team who does not need to buy in koreans to give them results.
On January 02 2012 21:05 labbe wrote: lol @ Team Liquid awarding themselves "Team of the year" :D Mousesports is the best foreigner team by far, and they are the only foreigner team who does not need to buy in koreans to give them results.
Otherwise good writeup.
Have you even read the thread? I'm getting so annoyed by people who just pop in to make an identical point to fifty other people, with no reference to the opposite perspective.
On January 02 2012 05:18 -orb- wrote: Awesome article, great read, but I find it absolutely despicable that antiga was a nominee for best map, and sad as well that dual sight was the other. For shame! Easily the worst, most inaccurate section of the awards.
Terminus? Calm before the storm? Crevasse? Katrina? Cloud kingdom?
All infinitely better picks imo.... I suppose you can argue for dual sight even though it was imbalanced because we saw some great games on it, but antiga shipyard is only good compared to all other blizzard maps. Compared to gsl and custom maps, antiga is garbage.
A shame, but the quality of the rest of the article makes up for it. Still, it's a detail I'd like to see improved in the future.
Antiga got on the list because it's the most balanced map statistically in the pool. For the players we spoke to, balance was a split between Daybreak and Antiga. Terminus is not a balanced map, and there are so many versions of it, with important changes it's impossible to pick one. Calm Before the Storm is too new to really qualify. Crevasse is an awful map, you must be joking. Katrina hasn't been played in a single major tournament and it's a remake of a BW map. Cloud Kingdom might be the map of 2012, who knows!
On January 02 2012 06:17 flagg wrote: Was a lot of fun to read and thank you for doing it!
Best team of the year (international) seems a bit strange. IMO it should be either Mouse or FXO or IM.
There should be some kind of criteria. Is it a team with no Koreans? Is it a team that is controlled outside Korea? Is the result counted on individual basis or as a team? Is it any team with mixed Koreans and foreigners?
Now the criteria seem to be: team controlled outside of Korea with max 2 Koreans and only counting individual results.
Seems a bit far stretched to get the right winners in my opinion...
Edit: ...or just call it most popular team and be done with it
We viewed FXO as a Korean team because of it's participation in the GSTL and KSL, and it's merger with fOu. Teams that weren't GSTL regulars, nor made exclusively of Koreans (Team aLive, for example) were considered for the international award. We took teamleagues into account for the international award, but came to the conclusion that the foreign scene really lacks a teamleague that is up to the GSTL standard.
I can't speak for anyone else on this, but personally, I think eight teams is far too few for a teamleague, and that scheduling conflicts played too large a role in each teamleague to make the results too meaningful. Of course, however, I was cheering hard for Mousesports in the IPL TAC, and there's no denying that Liquid's defeat in that tournament was bad or that EG's absence in that event doesn't do them favors. But hopefully in 2012, we're going to have more team competition to factor into the equation.
Moreover, the award was called 'Team of the Year' and not 'Best Team at the End of the Year' or 'Best Team in Team Events'. Otherwise, FXO or SlayerS would've won the Korean award. No, I feel Team of the Year recognizes that teams do a lot more than just playing teamleagues. Teams play a big role in individual leagues as well, and in all kinds of extra curricular stuff. I think 'Team of the Year' is a much more broad designation than most people seem to feel it is.
And I didn't want to give Honorable Mentions at all, but obviously I didn't win that argument...
On January 02 2012 06:33 Avs wrote:
On January 02 2012 06:29 EsMors wrote: Very nice article! I agree on many points, but I can't understand why FOrGG is not one of the three players to watch in 2012.
Write for the foreign crowds on a site that caters primarily to that demographic. You don't really need their opinions anyways when you know whos who of the best and what to watch for.
The point was really to single out players who people wouldn't look at normally. I think everyone is going to be watching forGG, but it wouldn't have been so good of an article if I said; "Players to Watch For: forGG, MVP, MMA, GuMiHo, Bomber"
You really think Crevasse is such a bad map that I must be joking? I most certainly am not joking. Crevasse was a revolutionary map that really improved the map scene overall in sc2. More expansions, interesting attack paths, actual interesting usage of destructable rocks (the first partial block on a ramp like that too iirc which is used all the time now), the first map with an in-base expansion, etc. It was one of the best maps ever in SC2 specifically because the in-base expansion with its rich vespene geyser allowed excellent players to prepare specific builds for that map that would give them an edge. It allowed a ton of creativity, and it wasn't that poorly balanced.
One of the best maps in the history of SC2. I find it comical that you seem to think it's so atrocious.
And actually looking at the statistics, it's one of the most balanced maps to date.... what rock have you been living under that you think it's such a garbage map?
Not balanced in Korea. Crevasse was the go-to map for terran players for the whole first half of the year, I can't think of a single non-terran who liked it, and eventually, even the terrans hated it because they hated playing TvT on it. And you can't seriously give Crevasse credit for something like a backdoor expansion; there were tons of BW maps that had backdoor expansions, it's far from a new development in mapmaking.
Orb says that Crevasse is an astounding map because of all the features it basically introduced as viable and showed how they work out. You should know by now that you can't compare BW / Sc2 maps, bw maps that are completely viable in bw can be absolute garbage in Sc2 (and basically every BW map remake was, in fact, garbage). While we were still playing on shitty 2 player maps like Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant etc., GSL added a map like 5 times the size of them, with so many interesting features, that could, potentially, make for an completely imbalanced game with shitty dynamice. I think Orb advocates Crevasse more because of how much it pioneered the map making in general, while also stating that the balance was, even thought it was a huge experiment without any actual knowledge what's needed for a good game, more than sufficient.
And i have to agree with him, if you introduce an imbalanced (like really fucking imbalanced)map like Dual Sight and then go on to refute him with "Not balanced in Korea. Crevasse was the go-to map for terran players for the whole first half of the year, I can't think of a single non-terran who liked it, and eventually, even the terrans hated it because they hated playing TvT on it" it comes off as kinda weird. It's the same for Dual Sight, it's ridiculously imbalanced in favor of Zerg.
This is not your best of 2011.. this is tl.net's "Best of 2011"! Can they use their own minds or every article needs to be a poll so that people can choose who they want to win?
On January 01 2012 23:49 Infernux wrote: I would describe the teams like this. Team Liquid is like Manchester United (it's a soccer team, fyi), they have a flow within the team and they feel... complete, but also welcoming to new players. They are used to winning and have some great players, but also a lot of talent.
EG would be more like Manchester City (please mind that EG has won more than City compared to United), a bought team (also, this is a bit far out, but with HuK, JYP and PuMa, come on...) with less flow and feel between the players, more like a place to get rich and get their best shots at being the best, for all the wrong reasons (I'm still a little upset about the HuK thing, mind you).
Now, mind you, this is how I feel. In my 1.5 years in the SC2 esport scene (as a watcher and low league player) TL is the team I have felt the most connected too, because of their ethics, standards and how the players present themselves, in interviews, on lans and in general when meeting their fans.
Also, WhiteRa for most creative player. Boom.
Make ManCity into Chelsea and you might have a match...Tradition and the feeling of connection you've described is not something you can create by not buying the best players possible when you have the chance.
So you want Chelsea? Oh wow, words cannot describe!
Awesome read. Thank you so much TL for doing this (and making eSports happen).
Although I'm not going to comment on the rewards themselves, I have to chime in and give a shout out to Mouz. Such a small roster, but every single member stands out so much, both in terms of showmanship and style, while also being an absolute top player in their own right. Still <3 TL, EG and everyone else though. :D
Biggest drama of 2012: Heated debate over some award for a writeup to sum up for 2011
haha =p... the fact that people can have some a heated debate / argument over something as simple as a writeup to sum up the year just means that esports is getting bigger, and im glad! =D
i found this article a great read! there will always be people with differing views, but for the most part, i agree to alot of it!
Thanks alot and happy new year to everyone!!! cant wait for what 2012 has in stall for us in esports!!!!
Awesome write up and hilarious thread to follow it up. I will have been officially with TL for 1 year in just a few days, and this basically just summed it up, love you guys. ♥
On January 02 2012 22:02 Nifel wrote: Awesome read. Thank you so much TL for doing this (and making eSports happen).
Although I'm not going to comment on the rewards themselves, I have to chime in and give a shout out to Mouz. Such a small rooster, but every single member stands out so much, both in terms of showmanship and style, while also being an absolute top player in their own right. Still <3 TL, EG and everyone else though. :D
On January 02 2012 22:02 Nifel wrote: Awesome read. Thank you so much TL for doing this (and making eSports happen).
Although I'm not going to comment on the rewards themselves, I have to chime in and give a shout out to Mouz. Such a small rooster, but every single member stands out so much, both in terms of showmanship and style, while also being an absolute top player in their own right. Still <3 TL, EG and everyone else though. :D
are you saying they have a small..... cock?
Lmao, didn't think anyone would catch that mistake :D
after reading the first few pages of this thread I remember why I stopped lurking here... Nice read though, too bad you have to deal with all these kiddies
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I don't think people have their panties in a wad because Mouz didn't win. I think they do because Mouz wasn't mentioned.
You said, "mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players"--isn't that AT LEAST good enough to be......... . ... .. .. mentioned?
not really. winning, even a team league, is still largely individual. you practice with your team and receive some support from them, but honestly that comes into play more in individual leagues more than team leagues. team leagues are all online, you're not there together talking and giving each other advice (unless you're eg cuz we're the best) you're all sitting at home playing your own individual matches and winning or losing on your own. and even the practice, most people are more likely to practice with friends and regular practice partners, whether theyre on their team or not. its the extraneous stuff that really defines a team, particularly outside of korea.
Greg,
That's why we hand out individual titles for those who deserve them. Most of the prominent teams outside of Korea do next to nada when it comes to grooming their player's skill. All they do is setup shop.
Hell T-Zain didn't even join Mouz until after he won TSL3. Not like times have changed all that much. [pG] and ToT's players would vote players into their respectful teams as well after getting to know them. In the beginning, a lot of them flew under the radar. Not so much after 04.
Like I said, most teams. Then you have teams in Korea such as SlayerS where Lim wanted the freshest meat possible and guess what? He groomed them just like SK Telecom. Deja vu.
As for practice regimes. Not all players on international teams practice religiously with one another. You know this; I know this. You stuck with your [Media] boys and other boys for a long, long time. There will always be exceptions to the rule.
Anyone happen to know the song from 0:40-044 on Idra's video? I hear that song like every club I go to and can never find the song the night after :'(.
The best team award could have used some more consideration. I don't even neccessarily disagree with the conclusion (I do actually, but its not my biggest complaint), but the reasoning is a bit... lazy.
Why are only EG and TL nomineed? Some arguments for each nominee would have cleared that up, perhaps.In my opinion, Mouz and Dignitas would have both deserved a nomination (though not the win).
Weirdly, numerous people defend the EG/TL nomination by saying that "you have to look at the whole year". But if you did, Mouz and Dignitas would be even stronger contenders! Lets take a look. I'll mostly talk about Dignitas because I'm more accustomed to them. First some random tournaments throughout the year. Before you're accusing me of cherrypicking: Of course I am. Again, I'm not saying that Dignitas or Mouz should have won the award (they shouldnt). But they do deserve a nomination.
The very first non-korean premier tournament of 2011 was the IEM European Championship Kiev. It was won by Sjow (dignitas).
Assembly Winter 2011 was won by Ret (TL). Second-place finisher: Morrow (mouz)
TSL 3 was held in March. Winner: Thorzain (mouz). Runner.up: Naniwa (dignitas)
August: Battle.net invitationals. Dignitas picks up two second places (Europe/Naniwa and Latin America/KilleR) and one first place (North America/SeleCT)
Up to this point I haven't mentioned the MLG. I'll try to cover these a bit more indepth. Sadly, mouz didn't send an awful lot of players to MLG, so I'll leave them out of the comparison.
MLG Dallas, first MLG event of the year. Poolplay: http://img.xrmb2.net/images/633874.jpeg Top 16: 1. Naniwa (Dignitas) 3. SeleCT- (Dignitas) 4. iNcontroL (Evil Geniuses) 5. TLO (Team Liquid) 7. IdrA (Evil Geniuses) 10. GosuHuK (Team Liquid) 12. SjoW (Dignitas) 13. Ret (Team Liquid) 14. HayprO (Team Liquid) 15. Machine (Evil Geniuses) 16. Tyler (Team Liquid) The Teamliquid write-up specifically calls Dignitas "the team to beat". If they are the team to beat in April, surely they deserve at least some consideration?
Top 16: 4. IdrA (Evil Geniuses) 6. NaNiWa (Dignitas) 7. Ret (Team Liquid) 10. HayprO (Team Liquid) 13. SjoW (Dignitas) 15. Machine (Evil Geniuses) Each of the three teams has 2 people in the top sixteen. One of the worse showings of foreigners in general.
Raleigh: Poolplay: http://img.xrmb2.net/images/763522.jpeg Top 16: 5. PuMa (Evil Geniuses) 6. HerO (Team Liquid) 7. HuK (Team Liquid) 8. SjoW (Dignitas) 11. SeleCT- (Dignitas) 12. NaniWa (Dignitas) 14. DeMusliM (Evil Geniuses) Puma and HerO are picking up the slack for EG and TL.
MLG Orlando: Poolplay: http://img.xrmb2.net/images/886837.jpeg Top 16: 1. HuK (Evil Geniuses) 4. IdrA (Evil Geniuses) 7. PuMa (Evil Geniuses) 9. Ret (Team Liquid) 13. HerO (Team Liquid) 16. HayprO (Team Liquid) It is only here that EG is beginning to show its dominance, with three people in the top 8 and a first place finish. Note: Team Dignitas elected not to go to Orlando.
MLG Providence: Poolplay: None
Top 16: 5. HuK (Evil Geniuses) 7. HayprO (Team Liquid) 8. IdrA (Evil Geniuses) 10. HerO (Team Liquid) 11. PuMa (Evil Geniuses) 15. Ret (Team Liquid) Naniwa has left Dignitas, Select and Sjow lose their games and have a relatively bad top 24 finish.
The story that I'm trying to sell here is that Dignitas, for the the first half of the year, was a very strong contender for best foreigner team. As mentioned above, mouz only sent players to half the MLG events, but someone more dedicated than me could probably pull a similar case for them if looking at all of the major events of 2011.
Which leaves us with the conclusion. The writers themselves acknowledged that the tie is a cop-out. But then why do it? I personally would have to award EG the prize, considering the last third of 2011 (Providence and Orlando).
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I don't think people have their panties in a wad because Mouz didn't win. I think they do because Mouz wasn't mentioned.
You said, "mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players"--isn't that AT LEAST good enough to be......... . ... .. .. mentioned?
not really. winning, even a team league, is still largely individual. you practice with your team and receive some support from them, but honestly that comes into play more in individual leagues more than team leagues. team leagues are all online, you're not there together talking and giving each other advice (unless you're eg cuz we're the best) you're all sitting at home playing your own individual matches and winning or losing on your own. and even the practice, most people are more likely to practice with friends and regular practice partners, whether theyre on their team or not. its the extraneous stuff that really defines a team, particularly outside of korea.
Greg,
That's why we hand out individual titles for those who deserve them. Most of the prominent teams outside of Korea do next to nada when it comes to grooming their player's skill. All they do is setup shop.
Hell T-Zain didn't even join Mouz until after he won TSL3. Not like times have changed all that much. [pG] and ToT's players would vote players into their respectful teams as well after getting to know them. In the beginning, a lot of them flew under the radar. Not so much after 04.
Like I said, most teams. Then you have teams in Korea such as SlayerS where Lim wanted the freshest meat possible and guess what? He groomed them just like SK Telecom. Deja vu.
As for practice regimes. Not all players on international teams practice religiously with one another. You know this; I know this. You stuck with your [Media] boys and other boys for a long, long time. There will always be exceptions to the rule.
In point of fact, ThorZain was picked up during the TSL3. Praetoriani disbanded when he and someone else (NightEnd, maybe?) got picked up by more lucrative teams
On January 01 2012 21:58 EGalex wrote: Folks, please don't bash the EG/TL tie for team of the year .
While I do think that a case could be made for EG edging out TL as the singular team of the year (even by just a hair), and while that may be my (admittedly biased) personal opinion, I don't think an objective argument can really be made for either side coming out noticeably on top. When you consider all aspects of what makes a team great, including player support, fan engagement, community presence, business development, and (of course) tournament results, the gap between EG and TL - if it exists at all - is just too minimal to warrant either team winning the award outright.
Both EG and TL have our respective strengths and weaknesses, but overall, I don't think there are any international teams doing a better job of running their StarCraft divisions than EG and TL. And I want to both thank and applaud Victor, James, Ken, and everyone over at TL for a job very, very well done. I mean this very sincerely. This is not meant to take credit away from any of the other very high-level international teams, of course; it's just that, as far as StarCraft goes, I think EG and TL are at the forefront of international teams.
I'm very happy to share both the rivalry and team of the year awards with TL. Speaking comfortably for Scott, Colin, Cody, and everyone over at EG, we have so much respect for what TL does for its players and the community, and we're very excited to move into 2012 with such an intense and storied rivalry intact.
Watching DreamHack Winter was a very interesting experience for me. On the one hand, I obviously want EG to win every tournament we enter (especially that particular event, which was so well-produced and carried such prestige), and as such, I was *absolutely* heartbroken when HerO defeated PuMa in game seven to take the event. The loss haunted me for the better part of a week, causing many fingertips-to-the-forehead head shakes and long-inhale-short-exhale sighs. Yet, at the same time, I found the logical part of my brain continually saying, "This is good for the sport. Liquid was overdue for a big win."
I think that this anecdote is aptly representative of the dilemma and conflict you constantly face as a team owner. On the one hand, you want the sport to grow and flourish, and you understand that in the big picture of things, in order for that to happen, it's necessary for multiple teams to do well, and for intense rivalries to develop. Yet at the same time, you genuinely want your players and your team to win every, single map they play, and if you're not doing everything it takes to win (within the rules), you're doing yourself, your players, and your fans an unacceptable disservice.
Somehow, these two desires, while in theory rather mutually exclusive, in practice coexist in every team owner's mind on a daily basis. And so, while on the one hand I hope that an EG player wins every single tournament in 2012, on the other hand I know that it's good for the sport if Liquid (and other teams) get their share of victories as well. So, Victor, and everyone at TL, I truly wish all of you good luck going into the new year.
Just, y'know, not too much luck, please .
-Alex @ottersareneat on Twitter
This post needs more love. Thanks for writing this up Alex!
Nice article, my foreign team of the year would be Mouz though. They played much better in the team leagues than both EG and TL and they don't even have Koreans in their line-up to do so.
team of the year choice is sooo funny since mouz is like 100 times better than EG... and teamliquid? sorry, I respect the community here etc, but the team is only average.
Team of the year - Mouz ( won eg cup's twice +2nd IPL team arena + a lot medals in major tournaments) Most entertaining player - MC in lans , white-ra online Mose revolutionary - homestorycup Rivaly of the year MVP vs Nestea
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I don't think people have their panties in a wad because Mouz didn't win. I think they do because Mouz wasn't mentioned.
You said, "mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players"--isn't that AT LEAST good enough to be......... . ... .. .. mentioned?
not really. winning, even a team league, is still largely individual. you practice with your team and receive some support from them, but honestly that comes into play more in individual leagues more than team leagues. team leagues are all online, you're not there together talking and giving each other advice (unless you're eg cuz we're the best) you're all sitting at home playing your own individual matches and winning or losing on your own. and even the practice, most people are more likely to practice with friends and regular practice partners, whether theyre on their team or not. its the extraneous stuff that really defines a team, particularly outside of korea.
okok, I get your point. But I guess the devil's advocate argument here is that if you were to make nominations for "team of the year" to say.. pro American football.. You nominate the Packers (#1) and Saints (#2) and that's it. You don't nominate any other team because (let's just say) the Packers and Saints do significantly more for charity, NFL, and the general NFL sports scene than any other team (especially say the 49ers [#3]). You still think the 49ers shouldn't be even mentioned in a single sentence, much less nominated at all?
Yeah. My impression of this thread so far is that people arguing for mouz haven't really read the TL and EG arguments. I think they make a lot of sense. IdrA and TL mods spittin' some truth, yo. Mouz is an excellent team yes, noone is disputing that, but going with the criteria that the award was based on (you could argue that makes the title a little bit of a misnomer?) Mouz does not 100% deserve a nomination. Maybe they do, but not a clearcut yes afaic.
And I think people are forgetting that these awards aren't the end all and be all. It's not like anyone is winning anything real here, no money, no trophies.
On TL vs EG.... obviously bias comes into play. But I think TL compensated for bias properly. A tie is fair. Individual accomplishments for the year are pretty even, and outside the game they do do a lot too. Remember once again that I'm saying that according to the criteria for the award, EG and TL tying was a fair result.
It is amazing the work each and everyone of you do here at this site (mods/Admins) I love every minute I get to call this site my home. Keep up the amazing work!!! One day I hope more of you guys get paid positions (if possible !!)
On January 01 2012 23:17 Warsfear wrote: Completely wrong. Breakout Performance: by far Leenock. Best Game: drg vs mma is highly over-hyped and actually a poorly played game for those who understand the match-up; much more interesting would be jjakji leenock or mvp leenock regarding tvz. Best Event: how columbus could be chosen over providence is truly remarkable.
I don't understand how you could've read the article and come to this conclusion. Did you just skim over the results?
Breakout Performance: key word is BREAKOUT. Leenock was noticed since GSL2 (or 3?) for his excellent play and people have commented and expected him to be awesome since then. Yes his MLG run was ridiculously epic and unexpected, but he's been very well known for the past year. Thorzain, as stated in the article, came out of nowhere, was the underdog in every match of the TSL and defeated past GSL champions to nab the title and establishing his name. That's what breakout means.
Best Game: The best game doesn't just come from technical expertise or understanding of the matchup. It has to include the tension, the storylines and the drama that led to the best game. As mentioned the final game was ridiculously epic, especially since MMA went 3-0 on Z favoured maps then DRG somehow came back with 3 games on T favoured maps. These 2 have been rivals for a long time as well so the drama, tension etc was all there.
Best Event: If you read the article you'd know why they chose Columbus. it was the first time that people truly felt esports has arrived in the West
Edit: also reading through this thread there seems to be a lot of whine about mouz not winning best team even though they have more team league wins...until starcraft 2 has a premier teamleague like proleague, individual results from major tournaments where the best players are putting in their best efforts will have higher prestige when ranking teams. As someone who only follows the pro scene casually, i didn't even know there was a teamleague apart from GSTL, and i think this will be true for most of the SC2 crowd except the very hardcore. until teamleagues become universally known and followed by most people who watch starcraft 2 and with all the best teams competing with their best players, don't expect them to be worth very much
I'm just sad that MMA didn't get any award for greatest improvement or something along those lines even though he already received one from the Koreans.
He should get the "MVP's Kryptonite" award because if it wasn't for him MVP would have won even more championships
Nice article, I agree with everything except I think Leenock vs Jjakji was more significant as a whole. Great write up, great year and most importantly
I love how all the Europeans are saying MOUZ OMFG, and all the everyone else is like idc, EG and TL are pretty sweet <3 Similarly, getting Koreans on your team is NOT selling out, its increasing the commercial value of your team by virtue of your team's subsequent ability to post more better results as well as increase foreign interest, both of which draw sponsors and lots moar of teh monais.
Not entirely dissimilarly, I agree with @Mattchew. If Day[9] is happy, so should we all. <3
TL, can't wait for more amazing content like this and another amazing year. As my persian friend would say: kiss
I agree with mostly everything except for Best Game of the Year. Although I still think MMA vs DRG was good, MMA vs. TOP game 1 was absolutely spectacular. I'd still give the best series played to MMA vs DRG though, hands down.
On January 01 2012 21:58 EGalex wrote: Folks, please don't bash the EG/TL tie for team of the year .
While I do think that a case could be made for EG edging out TL as the singular team of the year (even by just a hair), and while that may be my (admittedly biased) personal opinion, I don't think an objective argument can really be made for either side coming out noticeably on top. When you consider all aspects of what makes a team great, including player support, fan engagement, community presence, business development, and (of course) tournament results, the gap between EG and TL - if it exists at all - is just too minimal to warrant either team winning the award outright.
Both EG and TL have our respective strengths and weaknesses, but overall, I don't think there are any international teams doing a better job of running their StarCraft divisions than EG and TL. And I want to both thank and applaud Victor, James, Ken, and everyone over at TL for a job very, very well done. I mean this very sincerely. This is not meant to take credit away from any of the other very high-level international teams, of course; it's just that, as far as StarCraft goes, I think EG and TL are at the forefront of international teams.
I'm very happy to share both the rivalry and team of the year awards with TL. Speaking comfortably for Scott, Colin, Cody, and everyone over at EG, we have so much respect for what TL does for its players and the community, and we're very excited to move into 2012 with such an intense and storied rivalry intact.
Watching DreamHack Winter was a very interesting experience for me. On the one hand, I obviously want EG to win every tournament we enter (especially that particular event, which was so well-produced and carried such prestige), and as such, I was *absolutely* heartbroken when HerO defeated PuMa in game seven to take the event. The loss haunted me for the better part of a week, causing many fingertips-to-the-forehead head shakes and long-inhale-short-exhale sighs. Yet, at the same time, I found the logical part of my brain continually saying, "This is good for the sport. Liquid was overdue for a big win."
I think that this anecdote is aptly representative of the dilemma and conflict you constantly face as a team owner. On the one hand, you want the sport to grow and flourish, and you understand that in the big picture of things, in order for that to happen, it's necessary for multiple teams to do well, and for intense rivalries to develop. Yet at the same time, you genuinely want your players and your team to win every, single map they play, and if you're not doing everything it takes to win (within the rules), you're doing yourself, your players, and your fans an unacceptable disservice.
Somehow, these two desires, while in theory rather mutually exclusive, in practice coexist in every team owner's mind on a daily basis. And so, while on the one hand I hope that an EG player wins every single tournament in 2012, on the other hand I know that it's good for the sport if Liquid (and other teams) get their share of victories as well. So, Victor, and everyone at TL, I truly wish all of you good luck going into the new year.
Just, y'know, not too much luck, please .
-Alex @ottersareneat on Twitter
This post needs more love. Thanks for writing this up Alex!
You're welcome... although, I think you're the only one that read it ;].
On January 01 2012 21:58 EGalex wrote: Folks, please don't bash the EG/TL tie for team of the year .
While I do think that a case could be made for EG edging out TL as the singular team of the year (even by just a hair), and while that may be my (admittedly biased) personal opinion, I don't think an objective argument can really be made for either side coming out noticeably on top. When you consider all aspects of what makes a team great, including player support, fan engagement, community presence, business development, and (of course) tournament results, the gap between EG and TL - if it exists at all - is just too minimal to warrant either team winning the award outright.
Both EG and TL have our respective strengths and weaknesses, but overall, I don't think there are any international teams doing a better job of running their StarCraft divisions than EG and TL. And I want to both thank and applaud Victor, James, Ken, and everyone over at TL for a job very, very well done. I mean this very sincerely. This is not meant to take credit away from any of the other very high-level international teams, of course; it's just that, as far as StarCraft goes, I think EG and TL are at the forefront of international teams.
I'm very happy to share both the rivalry and team of the year awards with TL. Speaking comfortably for Scott, Colin, Cody, and everyone over at EG, we have so much respect for what TL does for its players and the community, and we're very excited to move into 2012 with such an intense and storied rivalry intact.
Watching DreamHack Winter was a very interesting experience for me. On the one hand, I obviously want EG to win every tournament we enter (especially that particular event, which was so well-produced and carried such prestige), and as such, I was *absolutely* heartbroken when HerO defeated PuMa in game seven to take the event. The loss haunted me for the better part of a week, causing many fingertips-to-the-forehead head shakes and long-inhale-short-exhale sighs. Yet, at the same time, I found the logical part of my brain continually saying, "This is good for the sport. Liquid was overdue for a big win."
I think that this anecdote is aptly representative of the dilemma and conflict you constantly face as a team owner. On the one hand, you want the sport to grow and flourish, and you understand that in the big picture of things, in order for that to happen, it's necessary for multiple teams to do well, and for intense rivalries to develop. Yet at the same time, you genuinely want your players and your team to win every, single map they play, and if you're not doing everything it takes to win (within the rules), you're doing yourself, your players, and your fans an unacceptable disservice.
Somehow, these two desires, while in theory rather mutually exclusive, in practice coexist in every team owner's mind on a daily basis. And so, while on the one hand I hope that an EG player wins every single tournament in 2012, on the other hand I know that it's good for the sport if Liquid (and other teams) get their share of victories as well. So, Victor, and everyone at TL, I truly wish all of you good luck going into the new year.
Just, y'know, not too much luck, please .
-Alex @ottersareneat on Twitter
This post needs more love. Thanks for writing this up Alex!
You're welcome... although, I think you're the only one that read it ;].
Nono! I think many did, just, I don't think theres a lot to discuss, everything you said was on point. But yeah good post ^^
Also I think mouz dosnt participate in enough international tournaments for them to be considered team of the year. Team of the year should (imo) go to the team who has most wins, regardless of them being team wins or player wins, EG has most and the most prestigous imo wins so it's fair they get it, still like mouz moar tho :3
The funny thing tho is that it seems like Mouz players are the one refusing to go to the tournaments, judging from various interviews and articles I have read.
Sometimes I feel like mouz is being slightly underrated by a lot from other continents, but that's totally understandable as they don't have a very strong presence in said scenes, and it's not like I follow every NA scenes move, and there's a lot more to keep track of in the EU scene in general I think.
On January 01 2012 21:58 EGalex wrote: Folks, please don't bash the EG/TL tie for team of the year .
While I do think that a case could be made for EG edging out TL as the singular team of the year (even by just a hair), and while that may be my (admittedly biased) personal opinion, I don't think an objective argument can really be made for either side coming out noticeably on top. When you consider all aspects of what makes a team great, including player support, fan engagement, community presence, business development, and (of course) tournament results, the gap between EG and TL - if it exists at all - is just too minimal to warrant either team winning the award outright.
Both EG and TL have our respective strengths and weaknesses, but overall, I don't think there are any international teams doing a better job of running their StarCraft divisions than EG and TL. And I want to both thank and applaud Victor, James, Ken, and everyone over at TL for a job very, very well done. I mean this very sincerely. This is not meant to take credit away from any of the other very high-level international teams, of course; it's just that, as far as StarCraft goes, I think EG and TL are at the forefront of international teams.
I'm very happy to share both the rivalry and team of the year awards with TL. Speaking comfortably for Scott, Colin, Cody, and everyone over at EG, we have so much respect for what TL does for its players and the community, and we're very excited to move into 2012 with such an intense and storied rivalry intact.
Watching DreamHack Winter was a very interesting experience for me. On the one hand, I obviously want EG to win every tournament we enter (especially that particular event, which was so well-produced and carried such prestige), and as such, I was *absolutely* heartbroken when HerO defeated PuMa in game seven to take the event. The loss haunted me for the better part of a week, causing many fingertips-to-the-forehead head shakes and long-inhale-short-exhale sighs. Yet, at the same time, I found the logical part of my brain continually saying, "This is good for the sport. Liquid was overdue for a big win."
I think that this anecdote is aptly representative of the dilemma and conflict you constantly face as a team owner. On the one hand, you want the sport to grow and flourish, and you understand that in the big picture of things, in order for that to happen, it's necessary for multiple teams to do well, and for intense rivalries to develop. Yet at the same time, you genuinely want your players and your team to win every, single map they play, and if you're not doing everything it takes to win (within the rules), you're doing yourself, your players, and your fans an unacceptable disservice.
Somehow, these two desires, while in theory rather mutually exclusive, in practice coexist in every team owner's mind on a daily basis. And so, while on the one hand I hope that an EG player wins every single tournament in 2012, on the other hand I know that it's good for the sport if Liquid (and other teams) get their share of victories as well. So, Victor, and everyone at TL, I truly wish all of you good luck going into the new year.
Just, y'know, not too much luck, please .
-Alex @ottersareneat on Twitter
This post needs more love. Thanks for writing this up Alex!
You're welcome... although, I think you're the only one that read it ;].
On January 02 2012 08:29 Sliver wrote: IdrA won over Destiny for most entertaining? What in the world? We all know IdrA is better but Destiny is so much more entertaining, which is why he gets so many viewers.
Not sure if youre aware, but idra gets 2-3 times more viewers than destiny
On January 01 2012 21:58 EGalex wrote: Folks, please don't bash the EG/TL tie for team of the year .
While I do think that a case could be made for EG edging out TL as the singular team of the year (even by just a hair), and while that may be my (admittedly biased) personal opinion, I don't think an objective argument can really be made for either side coming out noticeably on top. When you consider all aspects of what makes a team great, including player support, fan engagement, community presence, business development, and (of course) tournament results, the gap between EG and TL - if it exists at all - is just too minimal to warrant either team winning the award outright.
Both EG and TL have our respective strengths and weaknesses, but overall, I don't think there are any international teams doing a better job of running their StarCraft divisions than EG and TL. And I want to both thank and applaud Victor, James, Ken, and everyone over at TL for a job very, very well done. I mean this very sincerely. This is not meant to take credit away from any of the other very high-level international teams, of course; it's just that, as far as StarCraft goes, I think EG and TL are at the forefront of international teams.
I'm very happy to share both the rivalry and team of the year awards with TL. Speaking comfortably for Scott, Colin, Cody, and everyone over at EG, we have so much respect for what TL does for its players and the community, and we're very excited to move into 2012 with such an intense and storied rivalry intact.
Watching DreamHack Winter was a very interesting experience for me. On the one hand, I obviously want EG to win every tournament we enter (especially that particular event, which was so well-produced and carried such prestige), and as such, I was *absolutely* heartbroken when HerO defeated PuMa in game seven to take the event. The loss haunted me for the better part of a week, causing many fingertips-to-the-forehead head shakes and long-inhale-short-exhale sighs. Yet, at the same time, I found the logical part of my brain continually saying, "This is good for the sport. Liquid was overdue for a big win."
I think that this anecdote is aptly representative of the dilemma and conflict you constantly face as a team owner. On the one hand, you want the sport to grow and flourish, and you understand that in the big picture of things, in order for that to happen, it's necessary for multiple teams to do well, and for intense rivalries to develop. Yet at the same time, you genuinely want your players and your team to win every, single map they play, and if you're not doing everything it takes to win (within the rules), you're doing yourself, your players, and your fans an unacceptable disservice.
Somehow, these two desires, while in theory rather mutually exclusive, in practice coexist in every team owner's mind on a daily basis. And so, while on the one hand I hope that an EG player wins every single tournament in 2012, on the other hand I know that it's good for the sport if Liquid (and other teams) get their share of victories as well. So, Victor, and everyone at TL, I truly wish all of you good luck going into the new year.
Just, y'know, not too much luck, please .
-Alex @ottersareneat on Twitter
This post needs more love. Thanks for writing this up Alex!
You're welcome... although, I think you're the only one that read it ;].
Oh please... Get a grip.
lol. why don't you? i guess your humor-detector is off.
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I don't think people have their panties in a wad because Mouz didn't win. I think they do because Mouz wasn't mentioned.
You said, "mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players"--isn't that AT LEAST good enough to be......... . ... .. .. mentioned?
not really. winning, even a team league, is still largely individual. you practice with your team and receive some support from them, but honestly that comes into play more in individual leagues more than team leagues. team leagues are all online, you're not there together talking and giving each other advice (unless you're eg cuz we're the best) you're all sitting at home playing your own individual matches and winning or losing on your own. and even the practice, most people are more likely to practice with friends and regular practice partners, whether theyre on their team or not. its the extraneous stuff that really defines a team, particularly outside of korea.
Greg,
That's why we hand out individual titles for those who deserve them. Most of the prominent teams outside of Korea do next to nada when it comes to grooming their player's skill. All they do is setup shop.
Hell T-Zain didn't even join Mouz until after he won TSL3. Not like times have changed all that much. [pG] and ToT's players would vote players into their respectful teams as well after getting to know them. In the beginning, a lot of them flew under the radar. Not so much after 04.
Like I said, most teams. Then you have teams in Korea such as SlayerS where Lim wanted the freshest meat possible and guess what? He groomed them just like SK Telecom. Deja vu.
As for practice regimes. Not all players on international teams practice religiously with one another. You know this; I know this. You stuck with your [Media] boys and other boys for a long, long time. There will always be exceptions to the rule.
I don't even know what StarStruck is trying to say... I never really thought that skill in team leagues could be less bolstered by the team than in individual leagues, but now that Greg explained it, it makes sense. Very counterintuitive, interesting.
On January 01 2012 21:58 EGalex wrote: Folks, please don't bash the EG/TL tie for team of the year .
While I do think that a case could be made for EG edging out TL as the singular team of the year (even by just a hair), and while that may be my (admittedly biased) personal opinion, I don't think an objective argument can really be made for either side coming out noticeably on top. When you consider all aspects of what makes a team great, including player support, fan engagement, community presence, business development, and (of course) tournament results, the gap between EG and TL - if it exists at all - is just too minimal to warrant either team winning the award outright.
Both EG and TL have our respective strengths and weaknesses, but overall, I don't think there are any international teams doing a better job of running their StarCraft divisions than EG and TL. And I want to both thank and applaud Victor, James, Ken, and everyone over at TL for a job very, very well done. I mean this very sincerely. This is not meant to take credit away from any of the other very high-level international teams, of course; it's just that, as far as StarCraft goes, I think EG and TL are at the forefront of international teams.
I'm very happy to share both the rivalry and team of the year awards with TL. Speaking comfortably for Scott, Colin, Cody, and everyone over at EG, we have so much respect for what TL does for its players and the community, and we're very excited to move into 2012 with such an intense and storied rivalry intact.
Watching DreamHack Winter was a very interesting experience for me. On the one hand, I obviously want EG to win every tournament we enter (especially that particular event, which was so well-produced and carried such prestige), and as such, I was *absolutely* heartbroken when HerO defeated PuMa in game seven to take the event. The loss haunted me for the better part of a week, causing many fingertips-to-the-forehead head shakes and long-inhale-short-exhale sighs. Yet, at the same time, I found the logical part of my brain continually saying, "This is good for the sport. Liquid was overdue for a big win."
I think that this anecdote is aptly representative of the dilemma and conflict you constantly face as a team owner. On the one hand, you want the sport to grow and flourish, and you understand that in the big picture of things, in order for that to happen, it's necessary for multiple teams to do well, and for intense rivalries to develop. Yet at the same time, you genuinely want your players and your team to win every, single map they play, and if you're not doing everything it takes to win (within the rules), you're doing yourself, your players, and your fans an unacceptable disservice.
Somehow, these two desires, while in theory rather mutually exclusive, in practice coexist in every team owner's mind on a daily basis. And so, while on the one hand I hope that an EG player wins every single tournament in 2012, on the other hand I know that it's good for the sport if Liquid (and other teams) get their share of victories as well. So, Victor, and everyone at TL, I truly wish all of you good luck going into the new year.
Just, y'know, not too much luck, please .
-Alex @ottersareneat on Twitter
This post needs more love. Thanks for writing this up Alex!
You're welcome... although, I think you're the only one that read it ;].
Best post of the thread, it just hasn't got enough drama for people to answer to Talking sense to a screaming mob is rarely very effective.
Good write up! I wish that there was some competition for player of the year in South Korea, since I've never been much of an IMMvp fan, but I do have to admit, this was his year. Hopefully someone else, anyone else will take the throne in 2012.
Great writeup, was a pleasure to read. I do wish there was something more they community could do for Day9 though, other than this. That man is quite possibly the hardest working man in eSports, and definitely the most passionate.
My favorite moment of the year was easily watching Thorzain come back and win TSL3. The only moment I can think of where I cried out loud and jumped out of my seat.
On January 02 2012 11:04 IdrA wrote: its team of the year, not most accomplished team of the year. mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players, but they dont really do anything otherwise. tl and eg are both out there interacting with the community and creating content and interest both for fans and to bring in new people to esports, mouz isnt, or they arent successful at it. tl and eg do a million times more for esports than mouz does. theres not a very clear winner in terms of whos won the most, but mouz clearly loses on the other stuff. (and eg wins but tl bias obv)
I don't think people have their panties in a wad because Mouz didn't win. I think they do because Mouz wasn't mentioned.
You said, "mouz is a successful team with a lot of good players"--isn't that AT LEAST good enough to be......... . ... .. .. mentioned?
not really. winning, even a team league, is still largely individual. you practice with your team and receive some support from them, but honestly that comes into play more in individual leagues more than team leagues. team leagues are all online, you're not there together talking and giving each other advice (unless you're eg cuz we're the best) you're all sitting at home playing your own individual matches and winning or losing on your own. and even the practice, most people are more likely to practice with friends and regular practice partners, whether theyre on their team or not. its the extraneous stuff that really defines a team, particularly outside of korea.
hey greg ur team sounds pretty sweet, ill join for 4k a month
egs a poor team we cant afford that
You misunderstood mate! Morrow is totally willing to pay 4k a month to get to be on the team! Although we're obviously talking SEK and not dollar, so translated that's something like.. 500 dollars! Now how does that offer sound!?
On January 01 2012 21:58 EGalex wrote: Folks, please don't bash the EG/TL tie for team of the year .
While I do think that a case could be made for EG edging out TL as the singular team of the year (even by just a hair), and while that may be my (admittedly biased) personal opinion, I don't think an objective argument can really be made for either side coming out noticeably on top. When you consider all aspects of what makes a team great, including player support, fan engagement, community presence, business development, and (of course) tournament results, the gap between EG and TL - if it exists at all - is just too minimal to warrant either team winning the award outright.
Both EG and TL have our respective strengths and weaknesses, but overall, I don't think there are any international teams doing a better job of running their StarCraft divisions than EG and TL. And I want to both thank and applaud Victor, James, Ken, and everyone over at TL for a job very, very well done. I mean this very sincerely. This is not meant to take credit away from any of the other very high-level international teams, of course; it's just that, as far as StarCraft goes, I think EG and TL are at the forefront of international teams.
I'm very happy to share both the rivalry and team of the year awards with TL. Speaking comfortably for Scott, Colin, Cody, and everyone over at EG, we have so much respect for what TL does for its players and the community, and we're very excited to move into 2012 with such an intense and storied rivalry intact.
Watching DreamHack Winter was a very interesting experience for me. On the one hand, I obviously want EG to win every tournament we enter (especially that particular event, which was so well-produced and carried such prestige), and as such, I was *absolutely* heartbroken when HerO defeated PuMa in game seven to take the event. The loss haunted me for the better part of a week, causing many fingertips-to-the-forehead head shakes and long-inhale-short-exhale sighs. Yet, at the same time, I found the logical part of my brain continually saying, "This is good for the sport. Liquid was overdue for a big win."
I think that this anecdote is aptly representative of the dilemma and conflict you constantly face as a team owner. On the one hand, you want the sport to grow and flourish, and you understand that in the big picture of things, in order for that to happen, it's necessary for multiple teams to do well, and for intense rivalries to develop. Yet at the same time, you genuinely want your players and your team to win every, single map they play, and if you're not doing everything it takes to win (within the rules), you're doing yourself, your players, and your fans an unacceptable disservice.
Somehow, these two desires, while in theory rather mutually exclusive, in practice coexist in every team owner's mind on a daily basis. And so, while on the one hand I hope that an EG player wins every single tournament in 2012, on the other hand I know that it's good for the sport if Liquid (and other teams) get their share of victories as well. So, Victor, and everyone at TL, I truly wish all of you good luck going into the new year.
Just, y'know, not too much luck, please .
-Alex @ottersareneat on Twitter
This post needs more love. Thanks for writing this up Alex!
You're welcome... although, I think you're the only one that read it ;].
Nope. I did.
And I specially like how you put that other teams winning is good too, that is important and not many people would think of that.
On January 02 2012 11:47 Oddslynx wrote: SlayersDragon should have been given some consideration for most entertaining player. I'm always smiling when I watch him play.
Great article sir. I had0a great time reading it. I wish we could have had a voting breakdown though, would have been nice to see how close or how far apart candidates are in TL's opinion.
On January 02 2012 11:47 Oddslynx wrote: SlayersDragon should have been given some consideration for most entertaining player. I'm always smiling when I watch him play.
I expected SlayersDragon to win this award =(
I agree. I think they neglected the good entreteining players like white-ra, dragon and destiny.
Both my penis and I agree, the thread that follows this wonderful article is almost as good. Yes I read every page, no I didn't get mired in the discussion. Why argue on TL about TL bias (as blatant as it clearly is)? Kidding
Advice to HuK: play hard to get n some hair tosses, HerO needs to work for it <3 <3 <3 :D
Fun write up, 30 pages of heated debate so far. Its hard to say who the best team is, because the only half decent foreigner team league has been looted by SlayerS for months now, individuals are changing teams like hairstyles, and there is no "season" per se, so most people only remember who did well in the last event, not through the whole year.
I would have liked to seen a unit of the year award. Who would win? The "broken to pieces" SCV? The "revolutionary" Warp Prism? The "OMG IT WILL MOVE WHILE BURROWED?!?!?!" Baneling? Or would it be a three way tie between the "most complained about units in SCII" Ghost, Colossus, and Infestor?
@mousesports wrote: Sorry @TeamLiquidNet but @EvilGeniuses is MILES ahead of you in your 2011 team comparison. And that beeing said by us. LOL
Why is mousesports even getting involved in this? Pretty pathetic IMO. Don't they have team shit to think about instead of opinion-based end of year awards on a community website?
Loving what IdrA and what Nazgul is saying. People need to put things into perspective to fully grasp what measure were used in assigning the awards. Awesome write-up!! and let the haters hate!
Finally had the time to sit down and read this to completion. A great article with meaningful awards and thoughtful choices to who they go to. Thanks TL staff for another enjoyable contribution and thoughtful piece of content, a good way to sum up the year.
I am baffled by the fact that entire article has not mentioned Sen at all. Sen's accomplishment on 2011 deserves a mention at least, if not an award. He finished 3rd in NASL season 1, the best foreigner finish behind Koreans while defeating July. He finished 3rd in BlizzCon 2011, defeating Naniwa. He finished 3rd in NASL season 2, best foreigner finish again, behind Koreans yet defeating Thorzain. Hence if Naniwa and Thorzain get their tributes, where's sen's? Hell, if Idra, who has not win a MLG on 2011 except MLG "North American" Invitational, could get a mention for his entertainment value, why not mention Sen for some actual skills? The so called TL awards need to disclose its rewarding criterion, seriously.
On January 04 2012 13:27 twndomn wrote: I am baffled by the fact that entire article has not mentioned Sen at all. Sen's accomplishment on 2011 deserves a mention at least, if not an award. He finished 3rd in NASL season 1, the best foreigner finish behind Koreans while defeating July. He finished 3rd in BlizzCon 2011, defeating Naniwa. He finished 3rd in NASL season 2, best foreigner finish again, behind Koreans yet defeating Thorzain. Hence if Naniwa and Thorzain get their tributes, where's sen's? Hell, if Idra, who has not win a MLG on 2011 except MLG "North American" Invitational, could get a mention for his entertainment value, why not mention Sen for some actual skills? The so called TL awards need to disclose its rewarding criterion, seriously.
they already disclosed them, its for whoever the fuck they want, if you are so baffled create a blog with you own awards and give 60 to sen
That was refreshing. I didn't follow SC2 too much in 2011, and this just helped me out a lot. Thanks for the write-up. And let me say "well deserved Day[9]".
On January 01 2012 14:34 Cynthesis wrote: I disagree with the tie for team of the year. EG has the most golds out of any foreigner team (and in my personal opinion) the better line up. But I respect your opionon.
But see, that's Liquipedia so it clearly must be SUPER BIASED. God forbid TL gets nominated or an award for anything on teamliquid.net. -_-
Actually there were minor errors and for 2011 - as far as premier championships are concerned - EG was ahead of TL 5:4
EG: MLG Orlando (HuK) NASL Season 1 & 2 (PuMa both) IEM Guangzhou and Cologne (IdrA and PuMa, respectively)
At the same time TL: Assembly Winter (Ret) DreamHack Summer and Winter (HuK and HerO) European Battle.net Invitational (Ret)
Also both teams provided one Champion of MLG in 2010 and won one tournament that qualifies as "premier-championship-except-it-is-qualified-as-major-on-liquipedia": ROG for EG (IdrA) and HomeStory Cup III for TL (HuK).
All and all - EG seems slightly ahead from that point of view.
Please note that I'm not trying to restart flame or s.t. but when I previously provided the link, it listed as though both teams had 5 wins each (1 in 2010, 4 in 2011) and this was my error.