What a shame! IPL4 is taking place in Las Vegas, yet there's no legal way to bet on eSports in the United States.
We believe that if you haven't run a victory lap around your neighborhood, or thrown a chair out your window in anger by the end of a tournament, you're watching eSports wrong. Thus, resident Teamliquidpro.com content manager Tree.hugger and I (the generally good-for-nothing Waxangel) took it upon ourselves to spice up the occasion, and create some of our own bets to keep things interesting. The stakes? Whatever makes us not look like degenerate gamblers in your eyes.
Also, look forward to our Power Rank: IPL4 Edition! later in the day (hi HuK!).
The way it's played.
The first person states the bet. Then the second person suggests the odds on the bet. Finally, the first person chooses which side of the odds to take, and explains his reasoning.
Real example from IEM Guangzhou:
Wax: IdrA will die to a Protoss deathball on Shakuras Plateau at any point during the tournament. Tree.hugger: Okay, 30 to 1? Wax: I'm taking the one. I would even have done it at 20 to 1, maybe even 10 to 1. Have you seen his stream lately?
*IdrA would go on to lose to elfi's deathball on Shakuras Plateau.
Totally unrelated photoshop by shiroiusagi that was just too awesome not to use.
Over/Unders
How about some silly, meta-tournament bets to start it off?
Tree.hugger: We might've shot this bet in the foot after putting these three events on the frontpage, but seeing as how I had to remind Wax about these tournaments, I'm betting that the numbers of recognition still aren't so high. I picked the under (and Wax set the line) before we newsed them, and now I'd suggest that recognition is perhaps a little higher.
Tangent: From a spectator and esports fan's perspective, when you consider that Copenhagen Games and The Gathering were on the same weekend last year as well, you can't help but think that these two events really should have a talk and figure out some way not to overlap. The player pool for each event is quite intriguing, but combine the two and you have an actual competitor to IPL – an Assembly to your MLG so to speak.
At any rate, people should watch; there's nothing wrong with more Starcraft for your weekend, and two simultaneous battles between top European GM's should be well worth everyone's time.
# of announcements made by other major tournaments during the course of IPL4 – Over/Under 3.5
My prediction? 1~2 MLG announcements regarding Spring Arena, and another round of player announcements from NASL. I don't think MLG will really make three announcements during IPL4, so DreamHack will be the difference maker here.
# of times the LANbulance is called – Over/Under 4.5
Tree: I'll take the under here. Now, I can't remember a tournament in the history of SC2 without internet issues. That said, it's been a while since the internet issues were so crippling that they really brought down a lot of games and brought the anguished cries of the community down on Blizzard's head. Since they were burned by this kind of stuff last time (albeit, by a freak accident out of their control), you've gotta bet that IPL will be triple checking their connection throughout the event. So while the chance of there being some internet issues is nearly 100%, will it happen five or more times? I doubt it.
Alright, let's not get carried away. There does happen to be an actual Starcraft II tournament going on.
# of foreigners to make it out of the open bracket – Over/Under 2.5
Wax:Under. The best way to explain this is by making a comparison to MLG Winter Championship, because just like MLG, IPL4 will have a total of eight spots in pool play available to the top open bracket players.
MLG Columbus
Open Bracket participants: 216
Notable Koreans: 14
Notable Foreigners: 25
Foreigners with seed advantages: 8 (of the 25)
Foreigners that advanced: ThorZaIN (had seed advantage), KawaiiRice, Ostojiy.
IPL4
Open Bracket participants: 128 (–88)
Notable Koreans: 32 (+18)
Notable foreigners: 36 (+11)
Foreigners with seed advantages: None (–8)
Not only are there more Koreans competing in the open bracket at IPL4, but they are Koreans of a higher level as well. Relatively unproven players like Heart, Inori, Sleep, and Golden filled the ranks at MLG, while players like Mvp, Jjakji, and 14 members of GSTL final caliber rosters will be competing at IPL.
A lucky foreigner might get a combination of favorable match-ups and non-Korean opponents to make it through to pool play. With that kind of luck, he should probably just quit IPL4 and devote himself to gambling as the Cosmo.
Straight up Odds
A foreigner will finish in the top six – 10 to 1
Did you ever imagine this would be the guy bearing your hopes and dreams?
Wax: Tempting, just enough that I'll bet on the foreigners at those odds. Or more accurately, I'll bet on Stephano at those odds. With the chances for a foreigner making it out of the open bracket being ridiculously small, this bet comes down to the players who already have group seeds, with Stephano having by far the best shot.
Stephano will have a tough time against MarineKing, but he'll be favored heavily against White-Ra. Depending on who gets into his group from the open, he could very well make it through. After all, he did happen to go 2-2 in a Blizzard Cup group with MC, DRG, Mvp and HerO, only to be eliminated on tie-breakers (and because MC lost a game against DRG on Crossfire that was totally meaningless to him – let's say NaNiwa's probe rush wasn't the only insensible thing about the Blizzard Cup).
Say Stephano makes it through to the Championship bracket, and faces Polt or aLive as his first opponent. Doesn't he have at worst, a 45% chance against those guys in a series? Stephano alone probably beats 10:1 odds.
Toss in whatever IdrA's chances are (grim, in a group with MMA and Bomber, but he did look good against Mvp and SuperNoVa lately), White-Ra's ability to conjure up incomprehensible wins, and long-shot foreigner chances from the open, and 10 to 1 is looking pretty good.
A GSTL player will win the tournament – 3 to 1
Tree: There was some debate about whether a "GSTL player" should include MKP and Bomber, both of whom would've been here anyway. I've decided that it should, because it makes this a more interesting bet. But I'm not buying it anyway.
In my view, MKP and Bomber are the only plausible chance for a GSTL player to win, as they begin in pool play. Given the IPL4 format, the advantage of being in the pools is simply too massive; open bracket players not only need to win a ton of games, but then they need to take top 2 in their pool to even make it to the championship bracket. It's certainly plausible that PartinG, Curious, July, Creator, or Maru would make it to the pools, but to go from there into the championship bracket is another huge step. And then winning the championship bracket itself? For a set of players that have never actually won anything; suggesting that they go home with the trophy is a massive leap of faith. I wouldn't take them at 3 to 1 even if they had started in pool play. That doesn't mean it's not possible; god knows I love PartinG, and Maru impressed the hell out of me in Code S. But I think the odds for a GSTL open player going all the way are a lot longer than this.
The question then, is what are MKP and Bomber's chances? Of the two, MKP is definitely the favorite, but I wouldn't make him so much of a favorite as Wax has here. Put MMA in MKP's position over the last two months, and he probably comes away with the same number of wins. Maybe Bomber does the same. The point is; even though MKP has been doing insanely well recently, this tournament is so tough that I don't see him as the obvious favorite. He could lose to any number of people here. So too, could Bomber.
The IPL4 winner will come from the open bracket – 2 to 3
Tree: I've already talked about my views on open bracket players like PartinG, Curious, and Maru. This bet adds a few other names to the pot; Jjakji, MVP, HerO, Oz, and TaeJa, for example. But my impression of the IPL format is not so good; it's even less forgiving than the already very tough MLG format. I'd love to see tournaments give open bracket players a better draw. Having a tournament like this gives such an absurd advantage to the players already seeded, that I don't think that open bracket players have a particularly good chance. So no, I'm not taking this.
That said, tough as it is, someone has to win, and we must end up with eight open bracket players in the pools. Once on even footing with the groups, you could make the argument that the open bracket has a stronger pool. Players like Jjakji especially could do serious damage in the later stages. But the fatigue of the opening rounds, the massive slant towards seeded players, and the fact that the pools actually are quite strong (we shouldn't overlook them) makes me feel that anyone starting in the open bracket has a very tough road,
IdrA will go 0 – 4 in his group – 1 to 3
If I could throw in a picture of White-Ra somewhere, our trifecta of pandering would be complete.
Wax: How could we not make an IdrA related bet? Tough, but I actually think IdrA is being underrated here. Of course, there's no chance in hell that IdrA will beat MMA, who is the best TvZ player in the world by some stupid margin – forget whatever you've seen MKP do in recent weeks.
However, an IdrA > Bomber upset seems totally reasonable. IdrA's biggest, most impressive wins over Koreans in tournaments have mostly come against Terran opponents, such as Mvp, SuperNoVa, PuMa, etc. Bomber at his best would definitely be favored to win, but he's always been an incredibly inconsistent player, going from 5 – 0ing teams in the GSTL to dropping out of the GSL in the same week, and going from winning to MLG Raleigh to getting eliminated by IdrA in Orlando...
There's a number of beatable opponents that could float in from the open bracket as well. ZvZ can be pretty volatile, so you never know what might happen against a BBoongBBoongPrime or ST_Curious. All-in-all, 1 to 3 seems a bit harsh for IdrA to lose every single series.
Nestea makes it through his group – even odds
Tree: This is a really tough bet; I threw this out here because I have no idea how NesTea is playing at the moment, and I doubt anyone else has a better idea. NesTea looked to be on the down and out last year. Has he recovered? Who knows?
At 1:1 odds (50%), I won't take this one either. The chance of advancing from your group is 40%, and NesTea's group isn't the worst thing I've ever seen, but it's not a cupcake group either. TAiLS is an erratic Protoss with a huge upside, and aLive, his recent Code S gaff non-withstanding, is a deadly Terran. Moreover, the open bracket is so stacked, that it seems quite possible that NesTea will find even tougher competition in his group on the second day, which would be bad news bears for him.
That's the subtly of this bet, I don't really need to pin down NesTea's skill level exactly to know that he's (A) liable to get Code-S level opponents in his group and (B) the ones he has already are players with a ton of talent. Both of these points mean that NesTea isn't likely to stomp his opponents and advance without a fight. But just for fun, where does NesTea land today? Probably where we last left him; a strong player, but without the spark and inspiration that led him to victory so many times in the past.
A foreigner will defeat a GSL champion in a series at any point in the tournament – 15 to 1
Wax: Luckily for me, tree.hugger gave me these odds before the brackets came out. Here are the three most likely scenarios where a foreigner could upset a GSL champion.
Stephano makes it out of his group, MMA, MC, Polt, or Nestea also manages to make it out of his group, they happen to be paired against each other in the championship bracket, and then on top of that, Stephano manages to win: Unlikely, but very high variance as everyone's progress out of group stage is highly dependent on who comes into their groups from the open.
Jjakji and HuK stay undefeated until round four of the open bracket, with Sheth being the main obstacle for Jjakji, and Ryung the main one for HuK. HuK then scores the upset, despite Jjakji being some kind of super-mutant at TvP: Highly unlikely, but not impossible.
Mvp and SaSe both make it to round three of the open bracket, and SaSe beats Mvp the three time GSL champ with an exploding wrist's in his worst match-up: The most likely of the three, but still not looking so great for SaSe.
Is the chance of at least one of these three happening less than 1/16? I don't think so. 15 to 1 is just too good, taken in a heartbeat.
And one last bet, just for fun.
Chance that a celebrity hookup puts ESPORTS into the mainstream – 45,000,000 to 1
Tree: Absolutely I'm taking this. There will be some handsome nerds in attendence, and of course, there's the untapped potential of the anonymous open bracket players to bolster the odds. As for the celebrities, well, there always should be some in Vegas. Now, the hook up is the relatively easy part, though not exactly high probability venture. Even if the hookup happens, there's a low chance that it becomes widespread knowledge on top of that. All that may be true, but I'm basing my analysis on the investigative, drama-mongering powers of TL and Reddit, which experience has shown to be quite formidable when roused. So keep your eyes peeled and cameras ready, attendees, as a little gossip might be esports' big break!
Writers: tree.hugger and Waxangel. Graphics: Meko. Photography and art: R1CH and shiroiusagi. Editors: SirJolt and Waxangel.
I'm hoping for the Celebrity bet to work in tree's favor, provided that the celebrity isn't some wussy or attention-whore, but then again, a large majority of celebrities are that (Yes, I said it), it's kinda unlikely. But hey, go mainstream eSports!
Though I agree with how Nestea's play and relationship with the game have gone in recent, I think he's being underplayed in that bet! Everything else sounding pretty good. Nice write-ups here at TL as always.
Thanks for the writeup, I think Wax has the advantage here mainly because I think Tree's odds are bit off for the SC2 related ones. I can't wait to see how these turn out. Best of luck to you both
I don't think Nestea will ever do well in these one-weekend tournaments. I predicted him to bomb out of pretty much every event since MLG (Global Invitational), and he's proven me right every time so far.
He just isn't a type of player that can sit down and run the gauntlet of randomized opponents all the way to take the championship. That said, he's seeded in a group this time and groups were known for some time so he should at least come prepared for the two opponents he knew he'd have to play.
On April 05 2012 22:24 Talin wrote: I don't think Nestea will ever do well in these one-weekend tournaments. I predicted him to bomb out of pretty much every event since MLG (Global Invitational), and he's proven me right every time so far.
He just isn't a type of player that can sit down and run the gauntlet of randomized opponents all the way to take the championship. That said, he's seeded in a group this time and groups were known for some time so he should at least come prepared for the two opponents he knew he'd have to play.
He's been at Providence and the Winter Arena. Amazing sample size!
It's more likely that it's sleep deprivation at these foreign tournaments(to which he's complained about in the past) than a gauntlet environment. The MLG qualifier had a similar setup and he ran right through that (albeit online, but even so, that only increases the volatility). The article gives a fair assessment of Nestea, however, because frankly, the guy barely participates in anything outside the gsl. So his expected performance is really up in the air.
% of IPL4 viewers that will know that Copenhagen Games, The Gathering or Gamers Assembly are occurring on the same weekend – Over/Under 17.3%
Under. # of announcements made by other major tournaments during the course of IPL4 – Over/Under 3.5
over. GSL can make announcements too and this is the perfect stage to announce to their forgein audience
# of times the LANbulance is called – Over/Under 4.5
By who? If 1 player drops it immediately goes into the over. I'll take the safe bet of the over
# of foreigners to make it out of the open bracket – Over/Under 2.5
Under. The over/under under should be at .5
A foreigner will finish in the top six – 10 to 1
Stephano hasn't looked his unbeatable self. Idra has an impossible group and wont get any breaks. No foreigners in the top 6.
A GSTL player will win the tournament – 3 to 1
I'll take this any day of the week.
The IPL4 winner will come from the open bracket – 2 to 3
I would take this bet too. So many koreans that can make this their breakout tourny
IdrA will go 0 – 4 in his group – 1 to 3
I would take idra not going 0-4, I think he is learning to adapt his play better. Nestea makes it through his group – even odds
No. I don't think Nestea plays well at forgien events, and I don't think he will get out of his group. A foreigner will defeat a GSL champion in a series at any point in the tournament – 15 to 1
Yeah. I'll take this. MVP and Nestea both look beatable. Jjakji could also get upset.
Chance that a celebrity hookup puts ESPORTS into the mainstream – 45,000,000 to 1
Sure. I'll bet a dollar to win 45 million. I don't care what the bet is.
I'm surprised JJakji wasn't mentioned much in this article. He's actually my pick to win it, or atleast finish top 3. I would definitely say hes one of the best players coming from the open bracket.
Just to comment on Copenhagen Games and The Gathering, both have always been done during the easters and always will be done at the same time. There will always be collisions there I'm afraid
Great idea for an article and some good bet ideas here. A GSTL player will win the tournament – 3 to 1
About that... as the guy with the long post very accurately said, this is probably the easiest bet to make, as the odds are way too good. This would be an interesting bet if it said "Foxer will win the tournament - 4 or 5 to 1"
Now, I would like to turn your attention to some real SC2 bets that any non-americans can make at pinnaclesports.com
Sat 4/7 1001 StarTale 1.909 05:30 PM 1002 Prime 1.943
Sat 4/7 1003 July 1.862 05:30 PM 1004 Maru 1.990
Very interesting odds, and I think they'll change quickly as for me it's Prime all the way with these odds. I definitely think they're the favorites vs startale. The july vs maru match is very tricky, it could go either way, but I'm feeling Maru here, if he doesn't choke hard due to stage fright he's actually better than july and 1.99 is pretty good for him.
I'd bet Tails on both of these. I'd say he's underrated here, I remember even naniwa saying that Tails is the only stream he's subscribed to and watches as Tails is really good and has some sick builds.
3.63 for Idra is not that bad actually vs Bomber, I mean Idra is still a big underdog but he might be able to do something if Bomber does not play his best. On the other hand, I'd go for the -1.5 1.76 bet for MMA to 2:0 Idra. I think Idra will go into that series with the mindset that he's already lost aand.. that's exactly what will happen
Go go Foxer -1.5 here @ 1.5. At the moment I'd say he's by far the best tvp player in the world, and 2:0-ing WhiteRa is something that is very very VERY probable.
I'd love to hear some of your thoughts about the bets too guys
On April 06 2012 01:04 Geo.Rion wrote: 45mil to 1? really? those are some silly odds ~.~
Just from a statistics perspective, I'd drop ten bucks down on the chance that one of our good-looking players gets lucky. Far more likely than hitting the lottery lol, and I'd take $450 million in a heartbeat
On April 06 2012 01:46 JeffVader wrote: Stephano fighting!!! Best American Zerg in existence.
If we get another Stephano - Polt rematch I'll be so down.
american ?? hes french dude... wts geography leassons
You're new here aren't you?
huehuehuehue
There are so many amazing players in the tournament that it will be very hard to predict any final results. Rooting for MC, White Ra, HuK, MVP and Bling. Bomber is also a player I'd like to see do well because when he is in beast mode he is easily one of the best and most entertaining players in the world.
Kiwikaki will make the most money this weekend, any bets?
On April 05 2012 22:24 Talin wrote: I don't think Nestea will ever do well in these one-weekend tournaments. I predicted him to bomb out of pretty much every event since MLG (Global Invitational), and he's proven me right every time so far.
He just isn't a type of player that can sit down and run the gauntlet of randomized opponents all the way to take the championship. That said, he's seeded in a group this time and groups were known for some time so he should at least come prepared for the two opponents he knew he'd have to play.
He won the Korean qualifier for the Winter Arena. Nestea is capable, but so are a lot of other players. I would love so much for Nestea to win here.
aahh for a moment i though there was about to be real money betting available for the competition. That's a shame really !
Nice read tho, this tournament is probably the toughest field in the history of SC2 yet (maybe GSL Code S tops it, but as far as "one event" tournament goes, this is definitely the hardest one).
On April 06 2012 01:46 JeffVader wrote: Stephano fighting!!! Best American Zerg in existence.
If we get another Stephano - Polt rematch I'll be so down.
american ?? hes french dude... wts geography leassons
It's gotten to the point where I can't tell if people are trolling or not when they respond to the Stephano/USA stuff by correcting his nationality. I feel like everyone should get the joke at this point! Haha
I LOVE the write up and the connection between Vegas and the bets. Awesome as always.
No betting, please! Betting will kill the sport, like it already did with football, have you seen the champiouns league matches lateley? its absoluteley rediculous.
On April 06 2012 04:11 Synwave wrote: I wouldn't know what odds to give on it but I am hoping White-Ra takes the whole thing. Hmmm...20:1?
I'd guess it's more in the neighborhood of 1-200 (if betting lines were established by people wagering money). There are so many players WhiteRa would need to be beat consecutively against whom WhiteRa would be a heavy underdog. For example, if you have to beat three players in a row whom your odds of beating are each 1 in 5 then the odds you beat all three consecutively are 1 in 125. This isn't to say white-ra is a bad player; it's just a reflection of the amount of talent at the event. My favoriate player is Stephano and I think he's great but he probably has around a 1 in 20 to 1 in 30 shot of winning it all. (That's pulled out of my ass, but it's around the odds someone would need to give me to bet on him to win it all.)
Going to the GSTL section has Prime as underdogs against Startale. Interesting, I wouldn't bet against Prime no matter who they're playing at the moment. Too bad Pinnacle's not open to the US.
On April 06 2012 03:56 DisOriental wrote: Odds that Huk will get extremely drunk and mouth off a bouncer at a club for not letting him in 3:1 I think HuK will remain completely sober. Not taking.
Odds that Haypro will have and epic SC2 interview about his gambling and show-catching Vegas ways at the end of IPL4 5:1 I'd like to see that, but not taking it.
Odds that Hot_Bid uses IPL4 as a platform to promote his Maxim Gamer Girl status 2:1 Of course he will!
Odds that someone will miss a game from being hungover or by some other debaucherous happenings 1:1 I'd make that 4:1 honestly... then maybe
<span class="highlight">Chance that a celebrity hookup puts ESPORTS into the mainstream – 45,000,000 to 1</span>
Tree: Absolutely I'm taking this. There will be some handsome nerds in attendence, and of course, there's the untapped potential of the anonymous open bracket players to bolster the odds. As for the celebrities, well, there always should be some in Vegas. Now, the hook up is the relatively easy part, though not exactly high probability venture. Even if the hookup happens, there's a low chance that it becomes widespread knowledge on top of that. All that may be true, but I'm basing my analysis on the investigative, drama-mongering powers of TL and Reddit, which experience has shown to be quite formidable when roused. So keep your eyes peeled and cameras ready, attendees, as a little gossip might be esports' big break!
So
@Gomtv Just met 50cent in the lobby of the Cosmopolitan. 50cent StarCraft fan? #GSTL
Who is going to be hooking up with 50cent. If ESPORTS wants to make it big, it doesn't get bigger than 50.
Tangent: From a spectator and esports fan's perspective, when you consider that Copenhagen Games and The Gathering were on the same weekend last year as well, you can't help but think that these two events really should have a talk and figure out some way not to overlap. The player pool for each event is quite intriguing, but combine the two and you have an actual competitor to IPL – an Assembly to your MLG so to speak.
At any rate, people should watch; there's nothing wrong with more Starcraft for your weekend, and two simultaneous battles between top European GM's should be well worth everyone's time.
Do your research first. The Gathering have been during the easter in over 20 years. Why the easter? Because the main purpose of TG is being a LAN - not being a tournament (which it also is, but that´s not the main reason The Gathering exists). I don´t know the history of Copenhagen Games, which may very well exist for the same reasons.
Though I agree that it would be better if they didn´t overlap since the competition would be higher with more and better people. But TG will never change their date, never.
Going to the GSTL section has Prime as underdogs against Startale. Interesting, I wouldn't bet against Prime no matter who they're playing at the moment. Too bad Pinnacle's not open to the US.
Actually you can make good money with betting on esports, because there are some really strange odds from time to time :D There was a blog by someone about betting and he made good calls. I got a big + in money overall too
idra:kim can i nydus your main? kim kardashin:oh idra! of course idra:
and/or
holly:hi handsome HuK:hi there, goergeous holly:so what are you doing HuK:just chilling playing the IPL for 40k$ holly:oh my!... make me your please HuK: En taro tassadar...
On April 05 2012 21:37 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: IdrA will go 0 – 4 in his group – 1 to 3 Wax: How could we not make an IdrA related bet? Tough, but I actually think IdrA is being underrated here. Of course, there's no chance in hell that IdrA will beat MMA, who is the best TvZ player in the world by some stupid margin – forget whatever you've seen MKP do in recent weeks.
However, an IdrA > Bomber upset seems totally reasonable. IdrA's biggest, most impressive wins over Koreans in tournaments have mostly come against Terran opponents, such as Mvp, SuperNoVa, PuMa, etc. Bomber at his best would definitely be favored to win, but he's always been an incredibly inconsistent player, going from 5 – 0ing teams in the GSTL to dropping out of the GSL in the same week, and going from winning to MLG Raleigh to getting eliminated by IdrA in Orlando...
There's a number of beatable opponents that could float in from the open bracket as well. ZvZ can be pretty volatile, so you never know what might happen against a BBoongBBoongPrime or ST_Curious. All-in-all, 1 to 3 seems a bit harsh for IdrA to lose every single series.
You must come from the future, tell me more about it
On April 05 2012 21:37 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: IdrA will go 0 – 4 in his group – 1 to 3 Wax: How could we not make an IdrA related bet? Tough, but I actually think IdrA is being underrated here. Of course, there's no chance in hell that IdrA will beat MMA, who is the best TvZ player in the world by some stupid margin – forget whatever you've seen MKP do in recent weeks.
However, an IdrA > Bomber upset seems totally reasonable. IdrA's biggest, most impressive wins over Koreans in tournaments have mostly come against Terran opponents, such as Mvp, SuperNoVa, PuMa, etc. Bomber at his best would definitely be favored to win, but he's always been an incredibly inconsistent player, going from 5 – 0ing teams in the GSTL to dropping out of the GSL in the same week, and going from winning to MLG Raleigh to getting eliminated by IdrA in Orlando...
There's a number of beatable opponents that could float in from the open bracket as well. ZvZ can be pretty volatile, so you never know what might happen against a BBoongBBoongPrime or ST_Curious. All-in-all, 1 to 3 seems a bit harsh for IdrA to lose every single series.
You must come from the future, tell me more about it
lol damn, I was about to make the same post. Waxangel is making money in Vegas...