|
[Code S] RO32 - Group F Preview/Group H Recap
April 11th, 2012 16:03 GMT
Bañe-ata by shiroiusagi.
Writers: Fionn and Waxangel. Graphics and Art: Meko and shiroiusagi. Editor: Waxangel.
|
|
Nice re-cap. Shame about ForGG though
|
sadly dont think nada has a chance here but i hope he and squirtle make it out of the group
|
P vs. T_T
I could'nt have made a better title. Even with godly micro, TvP seems unwinnable these days. The Protoss excuse "Yeah but if you play like a code S player, the MU is balanced" can no longer be used and I hope modifications will be made considering this MU.
|
United States32480 Posts
On April 12 2012 01:19 Conreik wrote: P vs. T_T
I could'nt have made a better title. Even with godly micro, TvP seems unwinnable these days. The Protoss excuse "Yeah but if you play like a code S player, the MU is balanced" can no longer be used and I hope modifications will be made considering this MU.
eh, Oz was a surprise, but PartinG is one of those single handedly makes a matchup look imba guy :O
|
As a Terran who HATES TvP, last night's GSL Group H was painful to watch.
|
United Kingdom3249 Posts
Such a tough group to call I feel.
Whereas yesterday I was convinced that Fin would have a major advantage in his group due to the travel back to Korea from Las Vegas for the other three players, this seems now to be a dubious assumption. I had thought initially that Nada would have had a fair chance due to this, though I guess travel simply affects different players differently, so this may or may not be the case.
It will also be interesting to see how Squirtle does in his Code S debut. He seems to have been around forever, being either the first or second Korean to win a foreign event (IEM before or after Genius won BlizzCon?), but could never really make it. He has gone through stages of his PvZ looking incredibly suspect as well as his PvT looking quite dire as well, but now it seems he has found a style suited for him in both. MMA has never looked really good in TvP, so this should be his chance.
Finally Leenock. While it is true that his ZvP record is everything but good, he has shown a lot of really good ZvP games. Either a lot of it has to do with maps or with him not being able to perform across the board against varying styles of Protoss play, or it could be that he has come some ways but not yet mastered the matchup. Recently, his ZvT which looked awesome during his run to the GSL finals has also been lacking, and judging on that form he should be somewhere in the middle of handily beating Nada while being disfavored to say the least in standard games versus MMA.
Should be a good group to watch. Interesting players, interesting storylines, and while it seems like Squirtle should somehow be favored to advance, it is his debut, he just got back from his IPL4 run and to be quite frank, he has not yet been tested in Code S.
|
United Kingdom3249 Posts
On April 12 2012 01:19 Conreik wrote: P vs. T_T
I could'nt have made a better title. Even with godly micro, TvP seems unwinnable these days. The Protoss excuse "Yeah but if you play like a code S player, the MU is balanced" can no longer be used and I hope modifications will be made considering this MU.
Last three major foreign tournaments have been won by Terran players. In all of them the Terran had to beat a Code S Protoss player in order to either advance to the finals or to win the actual finals itself. Furthermore, we have seen TvPs in two other groups so far this season, which ended in Maru beating HerO 2-1 and SuperNova beating Genius with the same score. Such a small sample size, but saying that a matchup seems unwinnable just based on one group when in fact all recent tournament results between Code S players have pointed in the opposite direction seems ludicrous.
|
On April 12 2012 01:21 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:19 Conreik wrote: P vs. T_T
I could'nt have made a better title. Even with godly micro, TvP seems unwinnable these days. The Protoss excuse "Yeah but if you play like a code S player, the MU is balanced" can no longer be used and I hope modifications will be made considering this MU. eh, Oz was a surprise, but PartinG is one of those single handedly makes a matchup look imba guy :O
My feelings about TvP were not made only by these matches, I have seen so many Terran's die under colossi and HT fire, I can't stand it anymore :D. The first game polt played made the MU looked really bad. Polt was one base ahead and never stopped putting pressure, the toss won anyway.
|
sad to see terrans whining about tvp lately ... i mean nothing much has changed in the matchup in the recent past, protoss just have terrans figuered out and push for late game, terrans need to feel the pain protoss had to endure for a majority of last year ...
Squirtle and Mma to advance, spot on wax
|
Agreed on pretty much... well everything really, nice writeup
|
United States32480 Posts
MKP alone makes TvP look stupidly imba -_-
buuuut he does lose to PartinG when the games go late ^_^;
|
MMA!
hope he gets out somehow
|
lol so Protoss start winning and there is immediately something wrong with the match.-_-
|
I hope this doesnt result in a balance whine even though some things are obvious for a while now when it comes to lategame trades and the effectivenes of high templars in destroying terran armies almost by themselves.
About today's matches i really liked the fact that oz tried to bring something different in the table and even though parting for sure is better and kinda more abusive than oz atm,i think that in the long run players like oz who think and bring new builds will be the ones to prevail.And tbh parting kinda relies on his lategame while oz forced ppl to make mistakes and commit on stupid attacks and he didnt rely on any of the "unbalanced" tech of the protoss army to stop them.
Also about parting's build the great thing is that the forge expand makes him really safe against cloaked banshees which can immediately shut down the far greedier 3expo into 7-8 gate that parting introduced.
|
On April 12 2012 01:31 efeKs wrote: lol so Protoss start winning and there is immediately something wrong with the match.-_-
You got to be really blind not to see that late game favors Protoss way too much.
|
Squirtle all the way. He made PvT look so silly today.
|
On April 12 2012 01:31 efeKs wrote: lol so Protoss start winning and there is immediately something wrong with the match.-_-
Not exactly.Ppl are complaining for a long time about the matchup.But as most balance changes that have already happened were most often trigered by gsl domination and not from diamond,master or even random grandmaster joes.It's still too early though
|
On April 12 2012 01:28 DayWalk3r wrote: sad to see terrans whining about tvp lately ... i mean nothing much has changed in the matchup in the recent past, protoss just have terrans figuered out and push for late game, terrans need to feel the pain protoss had to endure for a majority of last year ...
Squirtle and Mma to advance, spot on wax It's reasonings like this that make me convinced that certain Protoss players don't give a damn about balance but were merely upset that no Protoss won tournaments back in the sad zealot days.
|
United States23455 Posts
Parting's vP was absolutely stunning and how he held on late game especially in game one against Polt who was on more bases, rallying bio in, etc. was incredible. His zealot harassment at Polt's 4th and storms kept him in it long enough to stabilize.
Oz played well, but Fin's TvP wasn't that awe inspiring and in his series against Polt did the Daybreak quick third base that didn't get challenged at all and then another quick third with a great timing.
|
It take nearly a whole year for protoss to figure out PvT, now the time has come for terran players. Did you forget the crying zealot caps?
|
United States32480 Posts
I'll have to get lip to draw some crying marines o_O
|
Switzerland2892 Posts
I was hoping for more parting praising than something than what seems to me will end in "today I lost to protoss on ladder, clearly imbalance" :/
Parting won his late game because he played it really well and his opponents made too many mistakes
|
On April 12 2012 01:33 Conreik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:31 efeKs wrote: lol so Protoss start winning and there is immediately something wrong with the match.-_- You got to be really blind not to see that late game favors Protoss way too much. I refuse to comment on such things as balance i merely stated that that it is absurd to start QQ over this. please do not reply if it's a comment on balance have a nice day.
|
On April 12 2012 01:35 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:28 DayWalk3r wrote: sad to see terrans whining about tvp lately ... i mean nothing much has changed in the matchup in the recent past, protoss just have terrans figuered out and push for late game, terrans need to feel the pain protoss had to endure for a majority of last year ...
Squirtle and Mma to advance, spot on wax It's reasonings like this that make me convinced that certain Protoss players don't give a damn about balance but were merely upset that no Protoss won tournaments back in the sad zealot days.
err we do, but unlinke terrans we change our gamestyle to something that favours us, trying to match the bio ball early game without area of effect damage is suicidal and thus protoss go late game every time vs the bio ball ... if blizzard nerfs the toss late game maybe they need to give us cheaper ranged units so we dont get kited to death by bio balls
|
On April 12 2012 01:35 Tulkas25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:31 efeKs wrote: lol so Protoss start winning and there is immediately something wrong with the match.-_- Not exactly.Ppl are complaining for a long time about the matchup.But as most balance changes that have already happened were most often trigered by gsl domination and not from diamond,master or even random grandmaster joes.It's still too early though The thing is that every race complains about every other race,so you see it's an endless cycle of QQ and one i do not want to be part of.
|
On April 12 2012 01:35 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:28 DayWalk3r wrote: sad to see terrans whining about tvp lately ... i mean nothing much has changed in the matchup in the recent past, protoss just have terrans figuered out and push for late game, terrans need to feel the pain protoss had to endure for a majority of last year ...
Squirtle and Mma to advance, spot on wax It's reasonings like this that make me convinced that certain Protoss players don't give a damn about balance but were merely upset that no Protoss won tournaments back in the sad zealot days. They don't really win these days either. MC is the only protoss who won a tournament in 2012.
|
Is it just me or is there something very wrong with saying that NaDa is back in his "rightful" code S spot only to predict him to drop out of it?
|
On April 12 2012 01:37 Laserist wrote: It take nearly a whole year for protoss to figure out PvT, now the time has come for terran players. Did you forget the crying zealot caps?
The thing is, there is nothing left to discover, all the counters have been found, you need perfect EMP's, split, kitting, viking to colossus ratio, etc. It's not like they were a secret composition that we did not have tried already. Let's use this argument for PvZ then, Zerg crushes protoss with 12 min max on roaches and a lot of protoss stated that every strat have already been tried against it and nothing works. Stephano, the best foreigner Zerg even says ZvP is imbalanced and should be fixed. Every Terran I know complain about late game TvP. The only perfectly even match up at the moment is TvZ imo.
|
(..) PartinG showed that nothing the Terran player had done up to then, or could do from that point on, really mattered at all.
I don't quite agree. Polt threw away so many ghosts as soon as he had to start kiting zealots. Had he managed to keep his ghosts, he would've done much better in the late game.
|
YES MMA
Squirtle fighting.
2-0'd 3 amazing terrans including MMA @ IPL 4
GL TO ALL
|
On April 12 2012 01:46 Chenz wrote:Show nested quote +(..) PartinG showed that nothing the Terran player had done up to then, or could do from that point on, really mattered at all. I don't quite agree. Polt threw away so many ghosts as soon as he had to start kiting zealots. Had he managed to keep his ghosts, he would've done much better in the late game.
How do you propose saving your ghosts in the offchance you lose an engagement?
Chargelots out, you have to stim to get away and even then you can get poked repeatedly by autohit. You're guaranteed to lose ghosts then.
.............................
|
On April 12 2012 01:46 Conreik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:37 Laserist wrote: It take nearly a whole year for protoss to figure out PvT, now the time has come for terran players. Did you forget the crying zealot caps? The thing is, there is nothing left to discover, all the counters have been found, you need perfect EMP's, split, kitting, viking to colossus ratio, etc. It's not like they were a secret composition that we did not have tried already. Let's use this argument for PvZ then, Zerg crushes protoss with 12 min max on roaches and a lot of protoss stated that every strat have already been tried against it and nothing works. Stephano, the best foreigner Zerg even says ZvP is imbalanced and should be fixed. Every Terran I know complain about late game TvP. The only perfectly even match up at the moment is TvZ imo. I know you're kidding, right?
*about TvZ being balanced, that is
|
On April 12 2012 01:45 FlamingForce wrote: Is it just me or is there something very wrong with saying that NaDa is back in his "rightful" code S spot only to predict him to drop out of it?
Code S is more stacked than ever, there isn't really weak players like there was 2-3 seasons ago, anyone can drop out in Ro32 right now if you ask me.
|
On April 12 2012 01:39 pPingu wrote: I was hoping for more parting praising than something than what seems to me will end in "today I lost to protoss on ladder, clearly imbalance" :/
Parting won his late game because he played it really well and his opponents made too many mistakes I too but with all due respect to TeamLiquid this post seemed more like an excuse for people to start and uproar. There just throwing more wood at the fire.
|
Terrans may be rightfully complaining about late game tvp, but early through mid game still tends to favor the terran. This doesn't mean the mu is balanced, but it does make it annoying to see all this terran whining.
|
On April 12 2012 01:59 phyren wrote: Terrans may be rightfully complaining about late game tvp, but early through mid game still tends to favor the terran. This doesn't mean the mu is balanced, but it does make it annoying to see all this terran whining.
Speaking as a T, I'd much rather the MU be more balanced throughout the various stages of the game rather than it's current one. It's quite sickening that most of the time you can correctly predict the winner of a TvP just by looking at the length of the replay.
|
I really want to see stats on how many PvT's that terran wins are 1base allins or protoss players risking nexus first and getting snapped in half by 2rax.
And then I want to see winrates of games going on for longer then 20 minutes, last time someone did it terran had less then 20% if I remember correctly.
P vs T_T indeed, maybe in HOTS non-Polt/MKP terrans can win lategame TvP.
|
Well, one thing was we have to keep in mind is that the maps make quite a difference as well. I am not saying Protoss players aren't doing new things to improve their vTs. But I think the maps give them better opportunities for certain comps like zealot/archon/HT. Imagine the games on entombed valley today being played on say crossfire or belsir, I think they would have got quite differently.
Having said that, maps are very difficult to balance perfectly for all 3 matchups. Even in BW pro league, we see maps being a major factor. So imagine trying to balance sc2 maps when the units themselves are undoing changes.
|
I believe Polt have commented on TvP balance in the Mr. Chae pre-game show
Mr. Chae : Who do you expect to meet in winners match? Polt : Oz Mr. Chae : Why? Polt : Because his protoss.
|
On April 12 2012 02:02 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:59 phyren wrote: Terrans may be rightfully complaining about late game tvp, but early through mid game still tends to favor the terran. This doesn't mean the mu is balanced, but it does make it annoying to see all this terran whining. Speaking as a T, I'd much rather the MU be more balanced throughout the various stages of the game rather than it's current one. It's quite sickening that most of the time you can correctly predict the winner of a TvP just by looking at the length of the replay.
Then if it's true, they should nerf terran early game and nerf protoss late game. Even if I would like to hear some arguments about early game terran strength when they get murdered by 6 gate all ins.
On April 12 2012 01:56 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:46 Conreik wrote:On April 12 2012 01:37 Laserist wrote: It take nearly a whole year for protoss to figure out PvT, now the time has come for terran players. Did you forget the crying zealot caps? The thing is, there is nothing left to discover, all the counters have been found, you need perfect EMP's, split, kitting, viking to colossus ratio, etc. It's not like they were a secret composition that we did not have tried already. Let's use this argument for PvZ then, Zerg crushes protoss with 12 min max on roaches and a lot of protoss stated that every strat have already been tried against it and nothing works. Stephano, the best foreigner Zerg even says ZvP is imbalanced and should be fixed. Every Terran I know complain about late game TvP. The only perfectly even match up at the moment is TvZ imo. I know you're kidding, right? *about TvZ being balanced, that is
TvZ seems balanced to me ! Late game is harder after the ghost patch but if you drop every-fucking-where, you can still kill the zerg.
|
Really sad for Polt, thought his once-legendary TvP could pull him through...
For tonight, I'm going out on a limb and predicting MMA won't make it out of the group. Squirtle will, and either Leenock or Nada can upset MMA.
|
How in the world is TvZ coming up? There is already a/many dedicated balance threads.
Whole point of OP was that Parting played so freaking good that he made the matchup look imba.
|
TvP - hard for Protoss midgame, hard for Terran lategame.
There was a thread not long ago about MU winrates at different periods of time in the game. Terran had 60-70% winrate in the midgame (around 10-15 minutes), and Protoss had the same lategame (20-30 minutes). The really interesting thing was that winrates converged to 50% each at 35 minutes plus, because then the underdeveloped super-lategame comes into play, with nukes and Ravens and the Protoss constantly switching between Colossus and HTs etc.
|
I think the games were closer than it is stated here. It was alot of back and forth with critical moments for the protoss.
|
I've been thinking about pvt for like the last 5 months, because one of my teammates cries about it constantly. I sort of think TvZ and the 1-1-1 is the reason terrans are bad at TvP. What I mean is in TvZ the game has become so standard and terrans are used to that, they aren't innovating a ton. In PvT we see new styles created QUITE frequently. Immo pressure, fast 3 base, fast storm, colo pressure into storm and storm into 3 base. Terrans on the other hand pretty much go gasless expand into 3 rax starport. In the midgame Terran attacks and protoss has to try to survive until the late game. Suddenly in the late game, T continues to try to kill the protoss, but the defensive adv + splash means protoss wins. I'd like to see a terran try to solve this problem by playing really aggressive like usual midgame, and then transition into extremely defensive planetary's everywhere type style and try to take the map slowly while the protoss has to be super aggressive. Or just anything, clearly Terrans are more content to complain and all in early than to innovate in the late game. Also the 1-1-1. They just stopped trying to do new stuff during the 3 or 4 months that it was dominate, other than the 2 rax reactor/tech lab. Terrans can keep banking on the EZ as hell early/mid game win and keep dying to the late game, or they can try to fix the late game problems.
|
On April 12 2012 02:04 Hiea wrote: I believe Polt have commented on TvP balance in the Mr. Chae pre-game show
Mr. Chae : Who do you expect to meet in winners match? Polt : Oz Mr. Chae : Why? Polt : Because his protoss. Because Polt sounded sooo serious in that interview >.>
|
On April 12 2012 01:29 Waxangel wrote: MKP alone makes TvP look stupidly imba -_-
buuuut he does lose to PartinG when the games go late ^_^;
That depends on how you see it, regarding some people I've heard 3 marauders and 6 vikings can beat 18 zealots and 6 stalkers along with 8 HT's I believe. Haha!
|
On April 12 2012 02:18 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 02:04 Hiea wrote: I believe Polt have commented on TvP balance in the Mr. Chae pre-game show
Mr. Chae : Who do you expect to meet in winners match? Polt : Oz Mr. Chae : Why? Polt : Because his protoss. Because Polt sounded sooo serious in that interview >.>
He did, and i'm also really serious about that post.
|
Mod balance whining? Good example to set. Crying about late game when Terran lumps everything together to get stormed, fails thier 100 HP EMPs or spread cloakable ghosts is just sour grapes. PartinG did spread, did attack from multiple angles, landed perfect storms, just played better nothing to do with balance.
|
On April 12 2012 01:21 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:19 Conreik wrote: P vs. T_T
I could'nt have made a better title. Even with godly micro, TvP seems unwinnable these days. The Protoss excuse "Yeah but if you play like a code S player, the MU is balanced" can no longer be used and I hope modifications will be made considering this MU. eh, Oz was a surprise, but PartinG is one of those single handedly makes a matchup look imba guy :O Agreed, there are possible hints of imbalance, but that's like saying TvZ is imbalanced because MMA always wins it. He's just really good at it, just like Parting is just really good at PvT.
|
On April 12 2012 02:17 SkaPunk wrote: I've been thinking about pvt for like the last 5 months, because one of my teammates cries about it constantly. I sort of think TvZ and the 1-1-1 is the reason terrans are bad at TvP. What I mean is in TvZ the game has become so standard and terrans are used to that, they aren't innovating a ton. In PvT we see new styles created QUITE frequently. Immo pressure, fast 3 base, fast storm, colo pressure into storm and storm into 3 base. Terrans on the other hand pretty much go gasless expand into 3 rax starport. In the midgame Terran attacks and protoss has to try to survive until the late game. Suddenly in the late game, T continues to try to kill the protoss, but the defensive adv + splash means protoss wins. I'd like to see a terran try to solve this problem by playing really aggressive like usual midgame, and then transition into extremely defensive planetary's everywhere type style and try to take the map slowly while the protoss has to be super aggressive. Or just anything, clearly Terrans are more content to complain and all in early than to innovate in the late game. Also the 1-1-1. They just stopped trying to do new stuff during the 3 or 4 months that it was dominate, other than the 2 rax reactor/tech lab. Terrans can keep banking on the EZ as hell early/mid game win and keep dying to the late game, or they can try to fix the late game problems.
If you go hyper defensive when the toss got his deathball, you allow him to add countless number of gates and take countless amount of expansions and you just loose. Terrans learn in platinum that if they want to get in higher leagues, they need to put pressure at all costs. If you don't, the opponent remakes an army 10 times faster than you with larvaes/warp ins and you die.
|
Mods are allowed to comment on balance, remember the tree.hugger post after MC's 0-3 loss to Puma at IEM Cologne?
|
Really want to see MMA and Leenock, but squirtle terrified me with his IPL run. getting out of the open bracket alone was an amazing accomplishment, but the line of people he went through afterwards to get to the finals was simply unbelievable. hard to see him not going RO8 at least this GSL
|
On April 12 2012 02:23 Conreik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 02:17 SkaPunk wrote: I've been thinking about pvt for like the last 5 months, because one of my teammates cries about it constantly. I sort of think TvZ and the 1-1-1 is the reason terrans are bad at TvP. What I mean is in TvZ the game has become so standard and terrans are used to that, they aren't innovating a ton. In PvT we see new styles created QUITE frequently. Immo pressure, fast 3 base, fast storm, colo pressure into storm and storm into 3 base. Terrans on the other hand pretty much go gasless expand into 3 rax starport. In the midgame Terran attacks and protoss has to try to survive until the late game. Suddenly in the late game, T continues to try to kill the protoss, but the defensive adv + splash means protoss wins. I'd like to see a terran try to solve this problem by playing really aggressive like usual midgame, and then transition into extremely defensive planetary's everywhere type style and try to take the map slowly while the protoss has to be super aggressive. Or just anything, clearly Terrans are more content to complain and all in early than to innovate in the late game. Also the 1-1-1. They just stopped trying to do new stuff during the 3 or 4 months that it was dominate, other than the 2 rax reactor/tech lab. Terrans can keep banking on the EZ as hell early/mid game win and keep dying to the late game, or they can try to fix the late game problems. If you go hyper defensive when the toss got his deathball, you allow him to add countless number of gates and take countless amount of expansions and you just loose. Terrans learn in platinum that if they want to get in higher leagues, they need to put pressure at all costs. If you don't, the opponent remakes an army 10 times faster than you with larvaes/warp ins and you die.
I mean mid game early late game yeah, I agree. But when you hide around PFs warp ins dont matter. You learn in platinum as a protoss that if you attack into a PF you lose.
|
On April 12 2012 02:28 SkaPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 02:23 Conreik wrote:On April 12 2012 02:17 SkaPunk wrote: I've been thinking about pvt for like the last 5 months, because one of my teammates cries about it constantly. I sort of think TvZ and the 1-1-1 is the reason terrans are bad at TvP. What I mean is in TvZ the game has become so standard and terrans are used to that, they aren't innovating a ton. In PvT we see new styles created QUITE frequently. Immo pressure, fast 3 base, fast storm, colo pressure into storm and storm into 3 base. Terrans on the other hand pretty much go gasless expand into 3 rax starport. In the midgame Terran attacks and protoss has to try to survive until the late game. Suddenly in the late game, T continues to try to kill the protoss, but the defensive adv + splash means protoss wins. I'd like to see a terran try to solve this problem by playing really aggressive like usual midgame, and then transition into extremely defensive planetary's everywhere type style and try to take the map slowly while the protoss has to be super aggressive. Or just anything, clearly Terrans are more content to complain and all in early than to innovate in the late game. Also the 1-1-1. They just stopped trying to do new stuff during the 3 or 4 months that it was dominate, other than the 2 rax reactor/tech lab. Terrans can keep banking on the EZ as hell early/mid game win and keep dying to the late game, or they can try to fix the late game problems. If you go hyper defensive when the toss got his deathball, you allow him to add countless number of gates and take countless amount of expansions and you just loose. Terrans learn in platinum that if they want to get in higher leagues, they need to put pressure at all costs. If you don't, the opponent remakes an army 10 times faster than you with larvaes/warp ins and you die. I mean mid game early late game yeah, I agree. But when you hide around PFs warp ins dont matter. You learn in platinum as a protoss that if you attack into a PF you lose.
Chargelotes murder PF way too fast, I don't see this strat working.
|
On April 12 2012 01:44 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:35 S_SienZ wrote:On April 12 2012 01:28 DayWalk3r wrote: sad to see terrans whining about tvp lately ... i mean nothing much has changed in the matchup in the recent past, protoss just have terrans figuered out and push for late game, terrans need to feel the pain protoss had to endure for a majority of last year ...
Squirtle and Mma to advance, spot on wax It's reasonings like this that make me convinced that certain Protoss players don't give a damn about balance but were merely upset that no Protoss won tournaments back in the sad zealot days. They don't really win these days either. MC is the only protoss who won a tournament in 2012.
Every professional stat protoss is behind. Win rates, tounament wins, representation, so all terran is left to talk about is annecdotal single games and they go crazy when protoss win. In thier mind protoss is never supposed to win I think.
|
Is there any information that someone can post about the forge fast expand build?
|
On April 12 2012 02:24 SeaSwift wrote: Mods are allowed to comment on balance, remember the tree.hugger post after MC's 0-3 loss to Puma at IEM Cologne? Not really, I applogize then. Just seems like bad example is all for a place that does not toterate it.
|
This is going to be so sick. I say this every season(mostly to myself) but this is going to be the best GSL ever.
|
PF vs Colossi?
Also, it is impossible to spread vs storms and kite effectively at the same time. Since Korean terrans are so good splitting vs banes, there is no reason not to spread vs storms if it was actually effective. Problem is once you spread, the chargelots will just kill all the bio 1 by 1. This is different from banelings since each banelings hit also kills a banelings. With chargelots, they just kill a marine and move onto the next.
|
On April 12 2012 02:34 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:44 Olinim wrote:On April 12 2012 01:35 S_SienZ wrote:On April 12 2012 01:28 DayWalk3r wrote: sad to see terrans whining about tvp lately ... i mean nothing much has changed in the matchup in the recent past, protoss just have terrans figuered out and push for late game, terrans need to feel the pain protoss had to endure for a majority of last year ...
Squirtle and Mma to advance, spot on wax It's reasonings like this that make me convinced that certain Protoss players don't give a damn about balance but were merely upset that no Protoss won tournaments back in the sad zealot days. They don't really win these days either. MC is the only protoss who won a tournament in 2012. Every professional stat protoss is behind. Win rates, tounament wins, representation, so all terran is left to talk about is annecdotal single games and they go crazy when protoss win. In thier mind protoss is never supposed to win I think.
Annecdotal games and also the fact that you won't find a single Terran that states that late game TvP is totally balanced.
|
OP's ist hella biased in my opinion.
Yes, as a protoss player I do admit,: Late Game PvT favors toss, even though it's not unbeatable (I fear blanket emp the most). But, instead of only demanding stronger late game, terrans should start consider the overall matchup. Balancing the terran late game would mean, that they own protoss early game, have a slight edge in the mid and equal chances late game. That's not balanced aswell. Strenghten terrans late game also means that early and early to mid game has to be weakened. How are you going to accomplish that? Buffing mech? That would mean terrans get 2 possible late game paths (bio can still kill a protoss deathball) whereas protoss only has their 1-boring-deathball? that wouldn't be fair aswell. Making bio weaker makes protoss 2 base pushes stronger, also imbalanced.
So instead of complaining about toss, why not watch how the meta game evolves? Exactly the same thing terrans said to toss in the sad-zealot-period. 2 toss advances, protoss imba? What about the time we had almost no toss in GSL? Are the statistics favouring toss?Do toss win tournaments left an right? Squirtle was the only toss after pool play, think of that..
|
Imo its still better to spread then to eat a storm tbh.
|
Two protoss player advance and a TL-frontpage article claims that PvT is imbalanced? What has this site become ...
|
On April 12 2012 02:42 ooozer wrote: OP's ist hella biased in my opinion.
Yes, as a protoss player I do admit,: Late Game PvT favors toss, even though it's not unbeatable (I fear blanket emp the most). But, instead of only demanding stronger late game, terrans should start consider the overall matchup. Balancing the terran late game would mean, that they own protoss early game, have a slight edge in the mid and equal chances late game. That's not balanced aswell. Strenghten terrans late game also means that early and early to mid game has to be weakened. How are you going to accomplish that? Buffing mech? That would mean terrans get 2 possible late game paths (bio can still kill a protoss deathball) whereas protoss only has their 1-boring-deathball? that wouldn't be fair aswell. Making bio weaker makes protoss 2 base pushes stronger, also imbalanced.
So instead of complaining about toss, why not watch how the meta game evolves? Exactly the same thing terrans said to toss in the sad-zealot-period. 2 toss advances, protoss imba? What about the time we had almost no toss in GSL? Are the statistics favouring toss?Do toss win tournaments left an right? Squirtle was the only toss after pool play, think of that..
They should weaken Protoss late game and Terran early game. Put a buff to the bunker so we can hold protosses all ins a bit better and I would be happy with it. Or remove Protoss and redesign it but I think that's out of the question ! :D
|
|
Guys, Parting only wins the fight, because he has frikking much ht´s.le seemed to be at least more than 10. and only of ht´s he won. warping hts in requires no skill und pushing the t-button don´t do it too. ome on . it so freaking lame to see a toss army obliterating a terran ones, because of storm. And that in every lategame. And if terrans started playing allin games, because it has no sense for them to go to lategame, toss are whining and whining. Result: Blizzard nerfs terran units or Rax build time even more, that the toss is invited to 6gate or 1base colossi all-in us. It makes no sense, it makes no sense.
|
On April 12 2012 02:49 Conreik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 02:42 ooozer wrote: OP's ist hella biased in my opinion.
Yes, as a protoss player I do admit,: Late Game PvT favors toss, even though it's not unbeatable (I fear blanket emp the most). But, instead of only demanding stronger late game, terrans should start consider the overall matchup. Balancing the terran late game would mean, that they own protoss early game, have a slight edge in the mid and equal chances late game. That's not balanced aswell. Strenghten terrans late game also means that early and early to mid game has to be weakened. How are you going to accomplish that? Buffing mech? That would mean terrans get 2 possible late game paths (bio can still kill a protoss deathball) whereas protoss only has their 1-boring-deathball? that wouldn't be fair aswell. Making bio weaker makes protoss 2 base pushes stronger, also imbalanced.
So instead of complaining about toss, why not watch how the meta game evolves? Exactly the same thing terrans said to toss in the sad-zealot-period. 2 toss advances, protoss imba? What about the time we had almost no toss in GSL? Are the statistics favouring toss?Do toss win tournaments left an right? Squirtle was the only toss after pool play, think of that.. They should weaken Protoss late game and Terran early game. Put a buff to the bunker so we can hold protosses all ins a bit better and I would be happy with it. Or remove Protoss and redesign it but I think that's out of the question ! :D
If you buff the Bunker, I feel really sorry for Zerg players who have to deal with Bunker pressure constantly >_>
I say tweak the midgame a bit in P's favor and the lategame a bit in T's favor and you've got a better MU overall.
|
On April 12 2012 02:41 Conreik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 02:34 tdt wrote:On April 12 2012 01:44 Olinim wrote:On April 12 2012 01:35 S_SienZ wrote:On April 12 2012 01:28 DayWalk3r wrote: sad to see terrans whining about tvp lately ... i mean nothing much has changed in the matchup in the recent past, protoss just have terrans figuered out and push for late game, terrans need to feel the pain protoss had to endure for a majority of last year ...
Squirtle and Mma to advance, spot on wax It's reasonings like this that make me convinced that certain Protoss players don't give a damn about balance but were merely upset that no Protoss won tournaments back in the sad zealot days. They don't really win these days either. MC is the only protoss who won a tournament in 2012. Every professional stat protoss is behind. Win rates, tounament wins, representation, so all terran is left to talk about is annecdotal single games and they go crazy when protoss win. In thier mind protoss is never supposed to win I think. Annecdotal games and also the fact that you won't find a single Terran that states that late game TvP is totally balanced. They might not but there are problems with that complaint when they don't spread and don't use ghosts well. When they do, I've seen Terran mow through a late game protoss amry with good EMPs just as much as the other way with storms. There is also late game unexplored issues like MMM has been mainstay for almost two years and needs to deveolp beyond that.
Annecdotal games from best TvPer in the world is like whining how imba terran is when MMA demolished Zerg. Doesnt wash.
|
The balance whine seems out of place. What is few weeks of P>T compared to few months of T>P right before current state?
|
i dont know all the whines of the EMP: it reduces the life in a toss army to 33-50%. All shield are away. Storm kills if u stay more than 2 sec in there ur marine and reduce the half life of ur marauder. AND DODGING storms is a lot more stressful than get a emp, because of no observer in front of ur army
|
I may not understand fully the TvP matchups, but to me, it seems like what happened late 2010 early 2011 when MC dominate all terran with his 1gate expo into 6gate burst, utilizing his imba FF usage. he looked unbeatable at times until terran figured out his timing and attack his weakness. i think the same is happening right now, what PartinG is doing does leave some holes in his defense, i believe mkp hit a nice timing a few times when playing vs parting. this mu just needs some times to develop again. it has been forever since protoss last come up with new strats anyway.
|
THANK YOU TL.net
For showing even in news report that TvP has got some serious problems.
Dustin Browder/ David Kim do something!
|
On April 12 2012 02:49 Conreik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 02:42 ooozer wrote: OP's ist hella biased in my opinion.
Yes, as a protoss player I do admit,: Late Game PvT favors toss, even though it's not unbeatable (I fear blanket emp the most). But, instead of only demanding stronger late game, terrans should start consider the overall matchup. Balancing the terran late game would mean, that they own protoss early game, have a slight edge in the mid and equal chances late game. That's not balanced aswell. Strenghten terrans late game also means that early and early to mid game has to be weakened. How are you going to accomplish that? Buffing mech? That would mean terrans get 2 possible late game paths (bio can still kill a protoss deathball) whereas protoss only has their 1-boring-deathball? that wouldn't be fair aswell. Making bio weaker makes protoss 2 base pushes stronger, also imbalanced.
So instead of complaining about toss, why not watch how the meta game evolves? Exactly the same thing terrans said to toss in the sad-zealot-period. 2 toss advances, protoss imba? What about the time we had almost no toss in GSL? Are the statistics favouring toss?Do toss win tournaments left an right? Squirtle was the only toss after pool play, think of that.. They should weaken Protoss late game and Terran early game. Put a buff to the bunker so we can hold protosses all ins a bit better and I would be happy with it. Or remove Protoss and redesign it but I think that's out of the question ! :D
Yeah and forget about Zerg. Zerg has the strongest late game (as long as they don't get flushed down the archon toilet). Weaken the protoss death ball breaks PvZ aswell...
Note that Protoss are playing extremly greedy recently (1 Gate (double) expand, Nexus first) without getting punished. Economical cheese is extremly hard to deal with withouth pressure. 1 rax gas(less) FE or double expand is not what i call a pressure build
|
On April 12 2012 03:05 bluegarfield wrote: I may not understand fully the TvP matchups, but to me, it seems like what happened late 2010 early 2011 when MC dominate all terran with his 1gate expo into 6gate burst, utilizing his imba FF usage. he looked unbeatable at times until terran figured out his timing and attack his weakness. i think the same is happening right now, what PartinG is doing does leave some holes in his defense, i believe mkp hit a nice timing a few times when playing vs parting. this mu just needs some times to develop again. it has been forever since protoss last come up with new strats anyway. That's the way I feel. It's new. Will get figuered out either by not letting PartinG get that far by finding holes in his game or a counter. It's not like they don't have the tools and do. MKP shows how to beat it often, you just have to be good, spread, use ghost/scans well.
|
On April 12 2012 02:42 ooozer wrote: OP's ist hella biased in my opinion.
Yes, as a protoss player I do admit,: Late Game PvT favors toss, even though it's not unbeatable (I fear blanket emp the most). But, instead of only demanding stronger late game, terrans should start consider the overall matchup. Balancing the terran late game would mean, that they own protoss early game, have a slight edge in the mid and equal chances late game. That's not balanced aswell. Strenghten terrans late game also means that early and early to mid game has to be weakened. How are you going to accomplish that? Buffing mech? That would mean terrans get 2 possible late game paths (bio can still kill a protoss deathball) whereas protoss only has their 1-boring-deathball? that wouldn't be fair aswell. Making bio weaker makes protoss 2 base pushes stronger, also imbalanced.
So instead of complaining about toss, why not watch how the meta game evolves? Exactly the same thing terrans said to toss in the sad-zealot-period. 2 toss advances, protoss imba? What about the time we had almost no toss in GSL? Are the statistics favouring toss?Do toss win tournaments left an right? Squirtle was the only toss after pool play, think of that.. Well said
|
The stupidest part about the TvP matchup is that it's been known to be broken for ages, people (including pros) were pointing out the late game issues over a year ago. The bigger maps and more and more P 'learning to play' (go HT AND colossus, not just one of the above) have just made it more and more noticeable.
|
On April 12 2012 01:21 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:19 Conreik wrote: P vs. T_T
I could'nt have made a better title. Even with godly micro, TvP seems unwinnable these days. The Protoss excuse "Yeah but if you play like a code S player, the MU is balanced" can no longer be used and I hope modifications will be made considering this MU. eh, Oz was a surprise, but PartinG is one of those single handedly makes a matchup look imba guy :O
That , and every TvP i play on ladder. Its "keep protoss on 2 base or die trying" :D
|
Maybe we will see more Tank play to lay siege when you can not break the defense of the Protoss.
|
On April 12 2012 02:56 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 02:49 Conreik wrote:On April 12 2012 02:42 ooozer wrote: OP's ist hella biased in my opinion.
Yes, as a protoss player I do admit,: Late Game PvT favors toss, even though it's not unbeatable (I fear blanket emp the most). But, instead of only demanding stronger late game, terrans should start consider the overall matchup. Balancing the terran late game would mean, that they own protoss early game, have a slight edge in the mid and equal chances late game. That's not balanced aswell. Strenghten terrans late game also means that early and early to mid game has to be weakened. How are you going to accomplish that? Buffing mech? That would mean terrans get 2 possible late game paths (bio can still kill a protoss deathball) whereas protoss only has their 1-boring-deathball? that wouldn't be fair aswell. Making bio weaker makes protoss 2 base pushes stronger, also imbalanced.
So instead of complaining about toss, why not watch how the meta game evolves? Exactly the same thing terrans said to toss in the sad-zealot-period. 2 toss advances, protoss imba? What about the time we had almost no toss in GSL? Are the statistics favouring toss?Do toss win tournaments left an right? Squirtle was the only toss after pool play, think of that.. They should weaken Protoss late game and Terran early game. Put a buff to the bunker so we can hold protosses all ins a bit better and I would be happy with it. Or remove Protoss and redesign it but I think that's out of the question ! :D If you buff the Bunker, I feel really sorry for Zerg players who have to deal with Bunker pressure constantly >_> I say tweak the midgame a bit in P's favor and the lategame a bit in T's favor and you've got a better MU overall. Best thing that could happen for all three matchups is take a look at marine and mech. Nerf one buff the other.
Mech is pretty much garbage vs P and only so so vs Z and Mech's tier 3 should be best composition for them but it's the worst. Only tank is used vs Zerg and no mech vs Protoss. TvP is MMM, TvZ is MTM for the most part. Zerg is very strong late game without MMA drop skills. Protoss is very strong late game without MKPs spread skills. That's all there is to it, mostly bio, must play perfect. Addressing mech would fix this. I'd start with an irradiation shield on Thor where all bio in immediate vincinty takes 20 dmg per sec. Uses that energy for something useful killing Chargelots and Zerglings and most importantly broodlings. Then make tanks fearsome like BW. Basially add 40% more damage to start.
Marine. Sorry way too strong. It's the basis for all terran domination and cheese early game. Wether 1/1/1 2rax or bunker rushing it gives them an inordinate amount of success early.
Plus we could get our small maps back !
|
Its funny how if the two terrans were to get out of the group the feeling would be "meh, that's what usually happens in the GSL" but since the two toss got out of the group it's "OMG PROTOSS IMBA!!!".
We are so used to terran absolutely dominating that when the meta game is in favor of the other race everyone says its imba.
|
It'll be a sad day when NaDa leaves the SC scene... So here's hoping he makes something big of this year as befits his history. NaDa fighting!
|
On April 12 2012 03:39 happyness wrote: Its funny how if the two terrans were to get out of the group the feeling would be "meh, that's what usually happens in the GSL" but since the two toss got out of the group it's "OMG PROTOSS IMBA!!!".
We are so used to terran absolutely dominating that when the meta game is in favor of the other race everyone says its imba.
Ow I doubt that, I've been on these forums for a long time and both races QQ quite evenly.
|
On April 12 2012 03:39 happyness wrote: Its funny how if the two terrans were to get out of the group the feeling would be "meh, that's what usually happens in the GSL" but since the two toss got out of the group it's "OMG PROTOSS IMBA!!!".
We are so used to terran absolutely dominating that when the meta game is in favor of the other race everyone says its imba.
The fact that the two protosses advanced and no terrans is just an occasion to speak about the actual state of TvP. And as said previously, late game TvP has been an issue pointed out ages ago.
|
i love playing tvp (normally 1 rax, trip orb{kas build}) but lately it seems if i go late game, unless i consistently win engagements early, i cant win. also if i loose ANY SINGLE engagement mid game, i automatically loose bc or warp in reinforcement lots. im a diamond player, soo my micro isnt the best but i feel as if lesser toss players get wins because the race mechanics allow them to sit back and macro, (which lower level players find difficult) and don't need to be active around the map. when i saw polt v parting game 1, i thought that constant pressure would force constant warp ins and thus harm tech, but even then if the toss gets third it seems insta win (even now, at korean gm level)
|
On April 12 2012 03:34 Sufinsil wrote: Maybe we will see more Tank play to lay siege when you can not break the defense of the Protoss. Because when chargelots engage your bio, you definitely want tanks to shoot at them.
|
|
On April 12 2012 03:55 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:34 Sufinsil wrote: Maybe we will see more Tank play to lay siege when you can not break the defense of the Protoss. Because when chargelots engage your bio, you definitely want tanks to shoot at them.
Considering Teran bases can fly you can put buildings in front of those Tanks and bio.
|
I agree that PvT probably has some issues but last nights games were just people who were better than their opponents. In the history of gomtv giving out seeds either Code A or Code S they have never given out a seed to a player who truly deserved it. Even when DRG originally got his seed he lost in like the first or second round of Code S. As for ForGG I think he is just overrated.
|
Oh buddy, finally predicted something correctly this season -.-
|
It would be much appreciated if TL news could spare us the balance whine and stay professional, as they used to be. This is not the first time we see code S recap implying imbalance between the lines (my favourite one is "and this is when many pro players say they have problems with XvY") and unfortunately there are many frustrated players eager to jump to conclusions based upon that. When you post something as TL editor you should really do it with carefuly balanced words rather than provoking pitchforks.
Anyway, OP did point out lack of 1-1-1 and 2 rax builds out of Polt/forGG and altho this was obviously due to map played I think both T would still be better off with early pressure builds. Unfortunately for them they went for late-game strats, hence protoss had an edge and did well in the group. GOM did what they could to balance terran early game for blizzard with map pool changes, now it seems to backfire some with P having too easy time with long rush distances. Also, Parting played amazing as expected.
|
On April 12 2012 03:54 the_business_og wrote: i love playing tvp (normally 1 rax, trip orb{kas build}) but lately it seems if i go late game, unless i consistently win engagements early, i cant win. also if i loose ANY SINGLE engagement mid game, i automatically loose bc or warp in reinforcement lots. im a diamond player, soo my micro isnt the best but i feel as if lesser toss players get wins because the race mechanics allow them to sit back and macro, (which lower level players find difficult) and don't need to be active around the map. when i saw polt v parting game 1, i thought that constant pressure would force constant warp ins and thus harm tech, but even then if the toss gets third it seems insta win (even now, at korean gm level)
I think the opposite is also true - it's pretty easy to lose an engagements if you don't pay attention for 2 seconds and templars/colossi get sniped. Bio DPS is pretty high and without a critical mass of units the protoss army won't be able to do any damage
|
Prediction seems very reasonable, I'd too bet on Squirtle and MMA advancing
|
Please change squirtles picture in the article to:
+ Show Spoiler +
Or a similar picture ^_^
|
|
Hope MMA gets through...
Well guess Sad Zealot isn't around anymore
|
Polt vs. PartinG game 1 was ridiculously intense, because Polt played so amazingly well and still lost. PartinG's defense was just beyond impenetrable. As for Oz, I wasn't able to see him vs. Polt, but it sounds like he had quite the night as well.
I think in the end, it was one of those cases where someone was just playing so well that the game "feels" imbalanced, the same way MC's 6-gate pushes looked completely unstoppable a year ago. When someone's play is as tight as PartinG's was last night, you can't help but wonder what you can do to win.
Oh well, I still believe Polt will be back next season. No way he drops below Code A again.
|
|
and Nestea was coming back from the dead on Easter, One of the funniest things i've read. Oh god, i love Nestea jokes!
|
How could you not use NaDa's body in the picture?
|
|
On April 12 2012 04:24 Mystgun wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:54 the_business_og wrote: i love playing tvp (normally 1 rax, trip orb{kas build}) but lately it seems if i go late game, unless i consistently win engagements early, i cant win. also if i loose ANY SINGLE engagement mid game, i automatically loose bc or warp in reinforcement lots. im a diamond player, soo my micro isnt the best but i feel as if lesser toss players get wins because the race mechanics allow them to sit back and macro, (which lower level players find difficult) and don't need to be active around the map. when i saw polt v parting game 1, i thought that constant pressure would force constant warp ins and thus harm tech, but even then if the toss gets third it seems insta win (even now, at korean gm level) I think the opposite is also true - it's pretty easy to lose an engagements if you don't pay attention for 2 seconds and templars/colossi get sniped. Bio DPS is pretty high and without a critical mass of units the protoss army won't be able to do any damage
The difference is that some HT/Colossus with warp-in zealots can hold a much larger bio force. Terran bio cannot hold a significantly larger army the same way in the mid-late game.
|
|
I predict Squirtle will not make it out of the group. I don't think he's as good as people think. MMA and Nada will make it out of the group with Leenock a close third.
|
Been saying for months now how good Squirtle is but I doubt anyone believed me until this past weekend.
|
5/10 Terrans through to ro16 with IPL4 winner, Assembly winner, a GSL champion and last season ro4 being among those eliminated
4/5 Protoss through to ro16
And in the group with 2P and 2T both T go through. I think as the OP said, Polt / Parting game 1 shows you everything you need to about TvP. He didn't even need to make 1 Colossus.
|
It's just that terran's tier three units are so poor. the battle cruiser is useless in PvT vs stalkers and feedbacks. thors are useless in almost every TvP game. on the other hand, colossus and archons are extremely viable in almost any MU. A lot of toss players say that terran can't just rely on T1 units the whole game, but there really isn't much of a choice.
|
wp Parting. though he will get eliminated by some zerg I assume. P > T, but Z > P
oh and to those Terran players complaining: switch to protoss, you will be amazed how cool it is to storm the hell out of your opponents (unless they're protoss, but good old 4gate saves the day). switch to protoss, the sc2 world can be soooo beautiful
|
On April 12 2012 06:30 cmcaneff5502 wrote: It's just that terran's tier three units are so poor. the battle cruiser is useless in PvT vs stalkers and feedbacks. thors are useless in almost every TvP game. on the other hand, colossus and archons are extremely viable in almost any MU. A lot of toss players say that terran can't just rely on T1 units the whole game, but there really isn't much of a choice.
Ghosts, a lot of ghosts, little scvs with a lot of OC and way more marines than marauders, and never stiming into a toss army.
|
On April 12 2012 03:55 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:34 Sufinsil wrote: Maybe we will see more Tank play to lay siege when you can not break the defense of the Protoss. Because when chargelots engage your bio, you definitely want tanks to shoot at them.
With more multitasking you can target other things with your tanks, think more.
|
On April 12 2012 06:50 Guamshin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:55 Micket wrote:On April 12 2012 03:34 Sufinsil wrote: Maybe we will see more Tank play to lay siege when you can not break the defense of the Protoss. Because when chargelots engage your bio, you definitely want tanks to shoot at them. With more multitasking you can target other things with your tanks, think more.
Yeah you need Automaton 2000 micro, cool.
|
On April 12 2012 06:52 Conreik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:50 Guamshin wrote:On April 12 2012 03:55 Micket wrote:On April 12 2012 03:34 Sufinsil wrote: Maybe we will see more Tank play to lay siege when you can not break the defense of the Protoss. Because when chargelots engage your bio, you definitely want tanks to shoot at them. With more multitasking you can target other things with your tanks, think more. Yeah you need Automaton 2000 micro, cool. It's not that hard to keybind your tanks and right click on a high priority target... if you can do it against baneling clumps and infestors, why not sentries etc?
|
On April 12 2012 06:52 Conreik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:50 Guamshin wrote:On April 12 2012 03:55 Micket wrote:On April 12 2012 03:34 Sufinsil wrote: Maybe we will see more Tank play to lay siege when you can not break the defense of the Protoss. Because when chargelots engage your bio, you definitely want tanks to shoot at them. With more multitasking you can target other things with your tanks, think more. Yeah you need Automaton 2000 micro, cool.
Why this game should be easy?
|
Terran's lose to the best PvT player in the world and all of a sudden the matchup is imbalanced. Let's take a look at all of the changes that have taken place since the last patch.
· PROTOSS · Phoenix · A new upgrade has been added to the Fleet Beacon: Anion Pulse-Crystals. This upgrade increases Phoenix weapon range by +2.
This has done NOTHING to affect the matchup.
· TERRAN · Ghost · Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 (+25 vs Psionic).
If anything this makes it (slightly) better for Terran with respect to the matchup although not much. Snipe was only used for templar before anyways and it still is. Pretty much a useless change in terms of TvP.
· Orbital Command Center · MULE now always returns 30 minerals per trip, regardless of mineral type.
Well, lets be honest here. Blizzard didn't intend to have Terran get more of a reward for taking a gold base compared to the other two races. Terran would get more reward for taking the same risk as the other two races from mules getting increased return off gold mineral patches. Nothing wrong with this nerf.
I think what you see here is a combination of two things.
One, you have these two Protosses who play a very distinct style where they have gateway only compositions whereas most other Protosses usually rely on Colossi for splash damage and tech to Templar only when the Viking count gets too high. The matchup has developed and now it is time for Terrans to innovate again after having dominated the Colossi based style of Protoss for so long. Long story short, these two Protosses seem to have figured out the matchup.
Two, small sample size. This is one night of action, 5 sets, 11 games between 4 players. This says very little about the matchup overall. Lets take a much larger sample. Thank you to Telsh for compiling monthy win rates between TvP in this thread. As you can see, the matchup still favors Terran with 55/45 split in both the Korean and International TLPD for the month of March 2012. I see nothing to complain about and a lot of what it said is baseless conjecture with little supporting statistics. Take a look for yourselves.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326449
All in all. Stats speak for themselves. Take it from a statistics student.
EDIT: I should also note that many of the Terrans complaining have a very biased sample. They subjectively choose games where they get dominated by Protoss. The stats taken off TLPD are much less biased and have been taken from all parts of the world at higher levels of play. The sample size is much larger and much more accurately represents the population as a whole. I should also note that this only represents a higher level of play and does not in fact speak anything about the ladders and what not as I suspect the samples taken were only from tournaments.
|
On April 12 2012 06:53 HaXXspetten wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:52 Conreik wrote:On April 12 2012 06:50 Guamshin wrote:On April 12 2012 03:55 Micket wrote:On April 12 2012 03:34 Sufinsil wrote: Maybe we will see more Tank play to lay siege when you can not break the defense of the Protoss. Because when chargelots engage your bio, you definitely want tanks to shoot at them. With more multitasking you can target other things with your tanks, think more. Yeah you need Automaton 2000 micro, cool. It's not that hard to keybind your tanks and right click on a high priority target... if you can do it against baneling clumps and infestors, why not sentries etc?
While doing while you already do with your bio army, kitting, splitting, EMP'ing etc.
On April 12 2012 06:53 SeriouR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:52 Conreik wrote:On April 12 2012 06:50 Guamshin wrote:On April 12 2012 03:55 Micket wrote:On April 12 2012 03:34 Sufinsil wrote: Maybe we will see more Tank play to lay siege when you can not break the defense of the Protoss. Because when chargelots engage your bio, you definitely want tanks to shoot at them. With more multitasking you can target other things with your tanks, think more. Yeah you need Automaton 2000 micro, cool. Why this game should be easy?
Why this game should be only hard for Terran ?
|
Yesterday's games were absolutely disgusting to say the least. Polt was clearly outplaying Parting and both Polt and 5gg were outplaying Oz yet he manages to advance due to 1.4.3 and bad maps. Blizzard better get HotS out pronto or at least release a major balance path to fix protoss, because if the matchup stays the same then I'm not going to bother watching the GSL anymore.
With the current state of the game if Naniwa can't manage to advance from his group then he should just stop trying to compete in the GSL anymore.
|
What a group. I wouldn't mind seeing any of these players advance. It's terrible for me to root against NaDa, however, MMA and Squirtle are going to be my picks for the group. Hope Squirtle's impressive run/play at IPL4 wasn't a one-time showing
|
i will be so confused if squirtle doesnt make it out of this.
|
On April 12 2012 07:12 Amlitzer wrote: Yesterday's games were absolutely disgusting to say the least. Polt was clearly outplaying Parting and both Polt and 5gg were outplaying Oz yet he manages to advance due to 1.4.3 and bad maps. Blizzard better get HotS out pronto or at least release a major balance path to fix protoss, because if the matchup stays the same then I'm not going to bother watching the GSL anymore.
With the current state of the game if Naniwa can't manage to advance from his group then he should just stop trying to compete in the GSL anymore. ...you kidding me? Saying that ForGG outplayed Oz, well for their first series is true, for the second one he just played really bad, not much to say there. Same way with Polt vs Oz, just didn't play as good as he did vs PartinG. As far as PartinG's games go... well he's the best PvT player in the world, and Polt played fantastic against him, they both showcased some top level skill, but in the end, PartinG's high templar control was just too much. Their was nothing even remotely based on balance that decided those games, instead take lesson of Polt's play because he was really, really close at pulling off a pretty big upset.
Edit: ...and don't tell me PartinG's play is not impressive, especially game one vs ForGG, he was down 90 supply at one point, and still comes back with ingenious decision making and inhumane storms. It's just that his playstyle is designed in such a way that whenever he wins in PvT (which is pretty much all the time), it just looks totally imbalanced. That doesn't mean the matchup is... only that he is.
|
Honestly: Why that much whining when toss wins? I got a ban (!!) just for saying: Medivac drops are too efficient.
Then comes a author from TL and gives us "aged whine" for 3 paragraphs, just because protoss won their group, even telling us: "PartinG and Oz proved the Terran players correct by being downright unstoppable once they had multiple bases, storm, and mass upgrades".
From these words, you must thing: Whoa, these toss must be real IMBA, winning a lot of stuff. But the truth is: the last 2 MLGS, the IPL4 and most of the GSL in recent time were won by terran. Last toss GSL victory is over a year old - in a game thes not even that much older. Instead of singing praises about the new toss generation that might finally win something, you start complaining. When this GSL is again going to a terran (or zerg), will you still sing your tune?
I wish a site, that so readily bans people for saying something is OP, would not be complaining so much about game balance.
|
On April 12 2012 06:17 MVTaylor wrote: 5/10 Terrans through to ro16 with IPL4 winner, Assembly winner, a GSL champion and last season ro4 being among those eliminated
4/5 Protoss through to ro16
And in the group with 2P and 2T both T go through. I think as the OP said, Polt / Parting game 1 shows you everything you need to about TvP. He didn't even need to make 1 Colossus. This was also the first group in which a Terran lost to a Protoss. None of the Terrans who were knocked out before this group lost TvPs, and Supernova/Maru won 3 TvPs between them. TvP is actually 4-4 this season so far.
|
On April 12 2012 07:24 testthewest wrote: Honestly: Why that much whining when toss wins? I got a ban (!!) just for saying: Medivac drops are too efficient.
Then comes a author from TL and gives us "aged whine" for 3 paragraphs, just because protoss won their group, even telling us: "PartinG and Oz proved the Terran players correct by being downright unstoppable once they had multiple bases, storm, and mass upgrades".
From these words, you must thing: Whoa, these toss must be real IMBA, winning a lot of stuff. But the truth is: the last 2 MLGS, the IPL4 and most of the GSL in recent time were won by terran. Last toss GSL victory is over a year old - in a game thes not even that much older. Instead of singing praises about the new toss generation that might finally win something, you start complaining. When this GSL is again going to a terran (or zerg), will you still sing your tune?
I wish a site, that so readily bans people for saying something is OP, would not be complaining so much about game balance.
If you have one terran, like MMA or MKP or a zerg like DRG that win everything because they are extremely good and could win with any race, you can't use that as an argument. The top notch of the players are able to win even with a racial disadvantage. Do we really need to wait for GSL round of 8 to be full of one race only to admit that there is a balance issue ?
|
opterown
Australia54649 Posts
With the most impressive three day stretch in Starcraft II history, he showed that he belongs among the elite players of the world.
Leenock.
|
dcc, the TvP difficulty/whine has been going on for a long while-not just today.
That's why its 'aged whine', not 'let's all whine now'.
If Leenock beats nada, i can see MMA getting out of the group fairly easily-as long as he can dodge a second round with squirtle, he should be fine ^_^
|
On April 12 2012 07:12 Amlitzer wrote: Yesterday's games were absolutely disgusting to say the least. Polt was clearly outplaying Parting and both Polt and 5gg were outplaying Oz yet he manages to advance due to 1.4.3 and bad maps. Blizzard better get HotS out pronto or at least release a major balance path to fix protoss, because if the matchup stays the same then I'm not going to bother watching the GSL anymore.
With the current state of the game if Naniwa can't manage to advance from his group then he should just stop trying to compete in the GSL anymore. I didnt realise building bases decided victor, that's the only way those terrans did better, build bases undefended bases which both Oz and Parting exploited sending out hit squads of Zealots and DTs all games.
Parting totally outclassed Polt in every way during battle. Actually hit stroms - tons of them, flanked, spread his units. Polt wiffed all but 2 EMPs and only hit a few units due to PartinGs superior positioning.
|
I can see this being an all Terran win group
|
According to Teamliquids usual ban/warn behaviour on balance wine, OP should at least get a warning for balance wine. The first post already derailed the whole thread into a discussion between terrans who complain about their own inadequatness of playing against toss, and toss who fear that teamliquid wine's gonna cause a nerf on their race.
|
Wow, even Code S players like MMA is struggling with T v P..... Shows you how fragile this match up can be in the late game....
|
Parting has the best PvT in the world. And Oz is one the fastest Protoss when it comes to adopting and learning. Of course if you match those two against mid tier code S Terrans the matchup will look imba.
MKP vs Parting in gstl is a good example of end game PvT. Your army is stronger mid-game. Do a timing attack. Keep up with upgrades via double ebay. Do muti pronged attacks. Harass. Etc etc.
|
Switzerland2892 Posts
On April 12 2012 08:22 Dontkillme wrote: Wow, even Code S players like MMA is struggling with T v P..... Shows you how fragile this match up can be in the late game....
MMA has never, ever been good at tvp even when terrans were dominating the mu
And he still defeated oz twice last season
|
Honestly.. Terrans decided it would be a good idea to take Protoss in a macro game right when Protoss learned how good late game units can be. Don't know why Terrans stopped doing multi drops early aggression. It's like "okay, lets play tvp the protoss way, and if we lose we can always whine". There is still no stopping properly executed 1/1/1 or any stim timing attacks that would render any late game Toss useless.
If only MVP was healthy, at least terran whine would go away.
|
On April 12 2012 01:45 FlamingForce wrote: Is it just me or is there something very wrong with saying that NaDa is back in his "rightful" code S spot only to predict him to drop out of it? Leenock is unarguably code S material. But it doesn't mean it's odd to predict him out.
|
On April 12 2012 08:27 power-overwhelming wrote: Honestly.. Terrans decided it would be a good idea to take Protoss in a macro game right when Protoss learned how good late game units can be. Don't know why Terrans stopped doing multi drops early aggression. It's like "okay, lets play tvp the protoss way, and if we lose we can always whine". There is still no stopping properly executed 1/1/1 or any stim timing attacks that would render any late game Toss useless.
If only MVP was healthy, at least terran whine would go away. Terrans haven't stopped doing drops, Protosses have gotten better at not dying to them. That's why people are complaining. Terrans have pretty much realized that they need to outright kill Protoss in the mid-game or at least enter lategame with a large advantage. However, as players get better, then Protosses will start to stop dying to drops (see Creator, Squirtle, etc) and then Terrans will be left with no options. mvp, even when he was healthy, was never very good at TvP; it was by far his worst matchup.
|
On April 12 2012 01:27 Porcelina wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 01:19 Conreik wrote: P vs. T_T
I could'nt have made a better title. Even with godly micro, TvP seems unwinnable these days. The Protoss excuse "Yeah but if you play like a code S player, the MU is balanced" can no longer be used and I hope modifications will be made considering this MU. Last three major foreign tournaments have been won by Terran players. In all of them the Terran had to beat a Code S Protoss player in order to either advance to the finals or to win the actual finals itself. Furthermore, we have seen TvPs in two other groups so far this season, which ended in Maru beating HerO 2-1 and SuperNova beating Genius with the same score. Such a small sample size, but saying that a matchup seems unwinnable just based on one group when in fact all recent tournament results between Code S players have pointed in the opposite direction seems ludicrous.
well when you look at the victory from terran players for both series mentionned above. all before 18 minutes. people are not complaining on the overall balance but on the fact that a protoss late-game has deathball and terran doesn't, plus upgrades effect. late game the match-up is most likely unwinnable
|
On April 12 2012 08:24 Lawliet wrote: Parting has the best PvT in the world. And Oz is one the fastest Protoss when it comes to adopting and learning. Of course if you match those two against mid tier code S Terrans the matchup will look imba.
MKP vs Parting in gstl is a good example of end game PvT. Your army is stronger mid-game. Do a timing attack. Keep up with upgrades via double ebay. Do muti pronged attacks. Harass. Etc etc.
Part of the solution? maybe. but still terran has to do a LOT more. while protoss only needs to sit back expand defend drops and macro. that's annoying! i'm playing zergs so the match-up doesn't affect me. but i watch stream and top Code S terran struggle vs Protoss overall
|
On April 12 2012 08:02 GTPGlitch wrote: dcc, the TvP difficulty/whine has been going on for a long while-not just today.
That's why its 'aged whine', not 'let's all whine now'.
If Leenock beats nada, i can see MMA getting out of the group fairly easily-as long as he can dodge a second round with squirtle, he should be fine ^_^
Yeah you may be right. But I think my point still stands. There isn't as much to whine about given that the Korean Terrans are winning 55% of TvP games while International Terrans are winning 61% of TvP games. It's like Bill Gates complaining that he's only making half of did a few years ago (may not actually be true, just hypothetically speaking), it's hard to feel sorry for them. Until Terran's start winning significantly (statistically significant) less than Protosses do, I don't think they should be saying anything about balance in the matchup.
|
ForGG may have given Tasteless a brain tumor last night, but I think this thread is giving me one now.
|
Yeah defending drops is soooo easy. Actually, protoss have a harder time dealing with drops than any other races. because they're immobile. Zealot warpins are not always available and only efficient in the late game and blink doesn't isnta transport you under medivacs. Preventing a drop is much harder than you might think if you don't have creep + lings. It's all about map awareness.. Another annoying way of dealing with protoss are Nexi snipes. Just rewatch MCvsPolt g1 at IPL4. Polt had the upgrade advantage, while MC took his 3rd earlier (up and running) + protecting it from the incoming timing push. What happened next? Mc had his army in front of his natural, leaving his 3rd nexus withouth protection. A bunch of Polt's army stimmed in, killed the Nexus in seconds and retreated. From that point on MC was on the backfoot, ultimately losing the game. Can you do that with toss? No. Even tough both have similar map control abilities, terran units are faster. If you see a hit squad of slow shooting blink stalkers, you can easily position a chunk of your army before stalkers arrive thus protecting the OC without much loses.
|
On April 12 2012 08:27 power-overwhelming wrote: Honestly.. Terrans decided it would be a good idea to take Protoss in a macro game right when Protoss learned how good late game units can be. Don't know why Terrans stopped doing multi drops early aggression. It's like "okay, lets play tvp the protoss way, and if we lose we can always whine". There is still no stopping properly executed 1/1/1 or any stim timing attacks that would render any late game Toss useless.
If only MVP was healthy, at least terran whine would go away.
Really?
How many times did you see 1-1-1 in IPL4? How many times have you seen it in this season's code S? Why would ANY pro do a stim all-in timing when forcefields can stop it indefinitely? Doing multiple drops early is tantamount to suicide, because if you don't have vikings and P attacks with 2-3 colossi, you're going to get rolled (especially if your army is still split up and/or if medivacs get sniped by stalkers) and you'll probably be behind on upgrades because chronoboost and putting all your gas into teching to starport, medivacs, and tech lab upgrades gimps either army size or engy bay upgrades.
Drops are good... when toss gets past 3 base. Macro toss is good... on 3 base. In the same mentality that some terrans have when they take the lowground corner 3rd by a watchtower on shakuras to reduce muta/ling runby possibilities, protoss is sticking to 3 base because that's all they need to assemble a deathball that can wipe the floor with terran's army, and taking more bases than that opens up a lot more space for terran attacks.
And really, you think that every single terran pro is just going to do a 1base allin every game tvp?
EDIT:
Yeah you may be right. But I think my point still stands. There isn't as much to whine about given that the Korean Terrans are winning 55% of TvP games while International Terrans are winning 61% of TvP games. It's like Bill Gates complaining that he's only making half of did a few years ago (may not actually be true, just hypothetically speaking), it's hard to feel sorry for them. Until Terran's start winning significantly (statistically significant) less than Protosses do, I don't think they should be saying anything about balance in the matchup.
In general, the only thing most terrans are saying (from what i remember of the 180+page thread) is that TvP isn't fun-balance at the top level, sure I can't say. I mean, I can say that a 1-gate double expand into 7gate pressure that actually has sometimes outright killed a normal 1 expand while teching behind it, and not getting countered by anything except a blind all-in (since it's generally too late to all-in after you scout the third due to frontloaded production and chronoboost) is a little suspicious to me-but that's about it. i know that a lot of terrans around my level are having trouble TvP from the 180+ page thread that was locked just a while ago, and it looks like a lot of terrans are also having trouble in the late game because of the strength of frontloaded anywhere-there's-a-pylon production combined with multiple strong aoe units from protoss that carry well into lategame (as opposed to hellions and tanks which are fairly awful in standup fights). But that's all I can really say since I'm not MMA or Ganzi or Taeja or anyone like that :3
|
when 1-1-1 was at the peak i remember a featured TL article commenting on the imbalanced-ness of the 1-1-1 so its not the first time. Also, I also remember Kennigit interviewing Dustin B and asking about terran imbalance (that was painful). Polt recently had an interview with ESFI saying that on some maps he felt there was a problem in TvP.
Its a really weird MU, terran is much stronger in the midgame (medivac timing) terran is not stronger early game its quite even in teh early game. after this mid game timing, there is a short period of even trading before late game where its very hard for terran to win. MKP makes the MU look reasonable late game when hes playing though. only polt, thorzain and puma otherwise make it look winnable at all.
Parting is amazing though, i love his play. Squirtle not so much, i watch his 2 base 6 gate colossi push and i think wow.... he beat several of the top terrans and it wasnt even close and he did no micro or anything special.
|
Polt used a stim push in g2 IPL4 against MC with a 2 rax after denying MC's scouting probe, outright killing him and his 1 gate fast expand as a result. Terrans jsut have to start punishing greedy toss and stop complaining about their macro. Protoss sux at harassing/pressuring that's why they almost always completly relie on 2 base all ins or late game death balls. Terrans have the ability to pressure harder, harras better. If you don't use it, you're not using your greates advantage. That's like a toss not opting for a deathball lategame
|
I know the odds are against him, but I'd really like to see Nada advance! Nada fighting!
|
The problem with the TvP matchup lately is that if you let protoss build up an economy and get into the late game, you are in trouble. Maybe what terrans should be doing is playing the matchup like they do vs zerg, using hellions for econ damage and multi-pronged drops to snipe off buildings. In a head on engagement with equal skill it will usually be the protoss that comes out ahead.
|
I think it's funny that people are just now aware of how good Squirtle is. No one gave two shits about Oz until after winter arena, no one cared about Heart until Columbus, and now Squirtle. I've been following these 3 players for over a year now and it's great to see some of my favorites finally getting recognition(seems ironic to me that top tier korean players almost have to get foreign results to be recognized).
|
United States32480 Posts
On April 12 2012 10:46 INTOtheVOID wrote: I think it's funny that people are just now aware of how good Squirtle is. No one gave two shits about Oz until after winter arena, no one cared about Heart until Columbus, and now Squirtle. I've been following these 3 players for over a year now and it's great to see some of my favorites finally getting recognition(seems ironic to me that top tier korean players almost have to get foreign results to be recognized).
No one watches GSL, but little do the outsiders know that it's the best circle-jerk in town!
|
Again, I think a lot of this comes down to maps. Most maps with wide naturals are gone and most naturals now can be blocked with 2-3 forcefields... I think you see this really evident in the number of sentries the protoss are building. Several months ago, it was 7-8 sentries but I think it yesterday's Parting games, he was quite comfortable with 4?
What does this mean? Previously, Protoss had to dump the gas into sentries in early game vs terrans if they wanted to defend their naturals from the bio. When the terrans saw this, they had 2 options, medivacs/ghosts. Then the protoss countered with colossi/HTs. A lot of terrans tried to hit this stim, combat shield timing with medivacs/ghost push before AoEs for protoss were out. They were sometimes able to win outright with this timing or got the protoss to pull probes.
With the number of sentries lowered, protoss are able to start their tech much earlier (if they did this before, the bio would just kill them) which means this timing window got a lot smaller (and on some big maps, non-existant)... ForGG actually hit a sick timing on Daybreak at the 3rd and EMP'ed the sentries... But storm got done just in time and he got repeled by the HTs and warpins...
Again, I would like to say Parting's map vision and HT control are amazing... But I don't think his entry storm build would have been possible on early maps (TDA, Belshir, etc) where the natural is more expose. But I think this is really hard to balance because expose natural = T advantage
And interesting side effect of this is that we see less 2 base all-ins (MC style) because 4 sentries aren't enough to push vs bunkers... Instead of punishing quick 3 base terrans with a gateway/sentry push, protoss just take a quick third.
If someone has time, I think it would be interesting to see how many sentries protoss players build on different maps.
|
seems like Squirtle has a fairly good chance since his opponents are not particularly good at playing vP.
|
How do you propose saving your ghosts in the offchance you lose an engagement?
Lol. It's not "off chance". You need to win the engagement. If you have bad positioning and you lose you deserve to lose your ghosts.
|
This is possibly the most disgusting whine thread I have ever seen.
|
On April 12 2012 10:46 INTOtheVOID wrote: I think it's funny that people are just now aware of how good Squirtle is. No one gave two shits about Oz until after winter arena, no one cared about Heart until Columbus, and now Squirtle. I've been following these 3 players for over a year now and it's great to see some of my favorites finally getting recognition(seems ironic to me that top tier korean players almost have to get foreign results to be recognized).
No one cares.
I find the PvT matchup logical. Early vs late, etc. I find it hard to resist making balance posts when the OP seems to call for it.
This article also shows me that Nada may have a chance. His ability to survive is remarkable.
|
lol, straight up qq about TvP. It's true tbh if you watched Polt vs Parting last night. 10 HTs spread out good enough to come in and storm the shit outta bio force 1 by 1. I feel really bad for Terran right now.
|
On April 12 2012 09:17 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:27 power-overwhelming wrote: Honestly.. Terrans decided it would be a good idea to take Protoss in a macro game right when Protoss learned how good late game units can be. Don't know why Terrans stopped doing multi drops early aggression. It's like "okay, lets play tvp the protoss way, and if we lose we can always whine". There is still no stopping properly executed 1/1/1 or any stim timing attacks that would render any late game Toss useless.
If only MVP was healthy, at least terran whine would go away. Really? How many times did you see 1-1-1 in IPL4? How many times have you seen it in this season's code S? Why would ANY pro do a stim all-in timing when forcefields can stop it indefinitely?
Haha, not sure why you even bothered replying to that, Stim timing attacks unstoppable? hilarious.
To be honest, PartinG is just playing at a much higher level than other protoss right now. He doesn't hit his storms neccesarily because he has ultra god like multitasking, but because his map awareness is so good, he has sooooo many observers on the field, I can recall him having over 8 stationary observers at key locations at the one time, no other protoss does this. And obviously the spread out HT's, no one does that either.
|
On April 12 2012 07:24 testthewest wrote: Honestly: Why that much whining when toss wins? I got a ban (!!) just for saying: Medivac drops are too efficient.
Then comes a author from TL and gives us "aged whine" for 3 paragraphs, just because protoss won their group, even telling us: "PartinG and Oz proved the Terran players correct by being downright unstoppable once they had multiple bases, storm, and mass upgrades".
From these words, you must thing: Whoa, these toss must be real IMBA, winning a lot of stuff. But the truth is: the last 2 MLGS, the IPL4 and most of the GSL in recent time were won by terran. Last toss GSL victory is over a year old - in a game thes not even that much older. Instead of singing praises about the new toss generation that might finally win something, you start complaining. When this GSL is again going to a terran (or zerg), will you still sing your tune?
I wish a site, that so readily bans people for saying something is OP, would not be complaining so much about game balance.
How is this different from the article that started the sad Zealot BS?
Its not like they haven´t done it before.... I really don´t like when this kind of articles ¨balance whine¨ because people actually take it so seriously. Especially since they see it as a official TL balance whine which makes them think they can whine all they want.
After the sad Zealot article everybody was whinning about PvT
|
So because two of the best protoss in the world got out of their group, TvP is impossible? ...
|
I'll admit, I've never had a problem with PvT mu on ladder in masters league, I lose to zergs most commonly and pvp (ugh). But, it's pretty sweet seeing so many brotoss in GSL. Hopefully, it will never become GOMPvP one day.
|
On April 12 2012 02:42 ooozer wrote: OP's ist hella biased in my opinion.
Yes, as a protoss player I do admit,: Late Game PvT favors toss, even though it's not unbeatable (I fear blanket emp the most). But, instead of only demanding stronger late game, terrans should start consider the overall matchup. Balancing the terran late game would mean, that they own protoss early game, have a slight edge in the mid and equal chances late game. That's not balanced aswell. Strenghten terrans late game also means that early and early to mid game has to be weakened. How are you going to accomplish that? Buffing mech? That would mean terrans get 2 possible late game paths (bio can still kill a protoss deathball) whereas protoss only has their 1-boring-deathball? that wouldn't be fair aswell. Making bio weaker makes protoss 2 base pushes stronger, also imbalanced.
So instead of complaining about toss, why not watch how the meta game evolves? Exactly the same thing terrans said to toss in the sad-zealot-period. 2 toss advances, protoss imba? What about the time we had almost no toss in GSL? Are the statistics favouring toss?Do toss win tournaments left an right? Squirtle was the only toss after pool play, think of that..
I agree completely. I'd prefer it if TL kept the balance whine to the 'Designated Balance Discussion Thread', there is no need to bring it here.
|
TvP is hard but i think its stupid to actually write/publish an article that starts off IMBALANCED. Esp after a terran just won ipl4. Its obvious that both terran and protoss can win games and that people are still experimenting with the matchup to see what works best. I think that its actually a very interesting time to be watching tvp because players like polt, mkp have been really pushing how the matchup is played.
|
So silly. Trying to make up for the Dead president's thread when tree called a spade a spade. Ridiculous actually.
The proper context would be a PvT matchup where it wasn't a miracle for a Toss to win and where winrates are apporach 50% again. Also, Toss kill moves show up with larger armies later in the game rather than early on. There are certain tech Toss just needs in order to be aggressive. Charge and Collosi namely. Parting has shown quite brilliantly how Templar should be used- defensively.If you look at his games he rarely moves the ungodly and almost unwieldily slow templar forward to storm but rather lets the Terran move into the storm.
Early game PvT is still questionable. The inability of toss to put pressure on Terran in a lot of cases besides direct pressure is a significant and non-trivial problem with the viability of sc2 as an esport.
In a few months we'll realize how important the large map sizes have been and the easy thirds have been to getting an acceptable P winrate. When we start trying to add some more diversity into the map pool again we'll end up with the summer all over again. Winrates look very sensitive to map design.
Now onto the actual group: there's no way squirtle is making it through after all the hype. He's a solid toss but despite his amazing run this weekend his play has looked the weakest of the available code S toss. MMA is kinda screwed because his vP is still crap. Nada though is ripe to upset expectations.
|
I think Parting vs ForGG game one deserves an honourable mention for best game of the night.
|
NaDa is going to advance, guys. Face it, there's no way that man can lose!
|
dezi
Germany1536 Posts
I hope MMA will advance but it won't be easy :/
|
+ Show Spoiler +Although TvP looked practically impossible last night, I think it's being blown out of proportion. Terrans are still doing fine (IPL 4 champion bracket was 5 Terran, 2 Zerg, 1 Protoss, GSL already has half of its advancing players as Terrans, with 5 opportunities left to boot), if TvP starts looking like it did yesterday on a regular basis, then it will need to be fixed, but in the meanwhile, hold your horses. Hell, Protoss went through months on end of borderline extinction before anything happened, and frankly, Zerg are looking to be in the most trouble this season. At best, they'll have July, Leenock and Nestea. And as has been mentioned in this article, Leenock's group is ridiculously hard.
Terran balance whine is the StarCraft equivalent of the "first world problems" meme. When you get ecstatic because even one Terran made it through to the round of 16, come back to see me.
Nada! I believe in you! I totally believe... well, okay, I don't really. But Slayers Boxer's not here right now so you'll have to do. Best grab a win while you can, 'cause next season is totally the Emperor's. My faith is absolute :D.
EDIT: Added spoilers so the balance whine could be neatly kept away from the important matters.
|
One point that people have failed to mention:
ForGG and Polt mainly used "old" builds - FE into 3 Rax (2 tech labs, 1 reactor) medivac pressure. In their builds, their +1 weapons are significantly delayed.
Contrast their builds to MKP's "new" build that he used almost 100% of his TvP in IPL4: FE into 3 Rax (2 REACTOR, 1 tech lab), fast +1, medivac timing (+1 armor is about 50%) of the way done.
IMO, MKP's build is FAR superior because of the fast upgrade and better army composition. Mauraders > Marines late game when there is storm and colossus, but before then, as MKP shows, its much better to go marine heavy. At IPL4, he had no problems cutting through the zelots with his better marine count. In contrast, ForGG and Polt had a more difficult time penetrating the zelot wall with their un-upgraded marauders.
Furthermore, Oz and Parting used new and innovative builds, which are specifically designed to work well against the old standard PvT. It's clear that Oz and Parting used better builds which gave them a clear advantage.
|
Creator, probably one of the better protoss out there :D
I was really disappointed to see polt loose the first game, he played very welll :/.
|
Canada16217 Posts
I'm excited to see Squirtle after ipl4. I exp3ct amazing things :D
|
|
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the groups are soooo good this season omg. i really hate how i start to get really tired an hour before it starts. i wanna pick my boy nada representing coL, but i just see squirtle and mma advancing =[
|
MMA > Squirtle Nada > Leenock MMA > Nada Squirtle > Leenock Squirtle > Nada
Is my prediction, pretty much the opposite but the same end result almost.
|
On April 12 2012 10:46 INTOtheVOID wrote: I think it's funny that people are just now aware of how good Squirtle is. No one gave two shits about Oz until after winter arena, no one cared about Heart until Columbus, and now Squirtle. I've been following these 3 players for over a year now and it's great to see some of my favorites finally getting recognition(seems ironic to me that top tier korean players almost have to get foreign results to be recognized).
Hipster SC2 fan, make all new players favorites, so that he can say he followed them before they got famous.
|
I wanna agree with picks of MMA and Squirtle but for some reason I just see MMA losing one of the 2 Bo3s he will have to play after losing to Wartortle(which if he wins a GSL his team must force him to take this name). Nada is never somoene I am ever comfortable betting against and a rematch against Leenock or Squirtle will not be easy even if it is MMAs best MU.
|
|
On April 12 2012 10:46 INTOtheVOID wrote: I think it's funny that people are just now aware of how good Squirtle is. No one gave two shits about Oz until after winter arena, no one cared about Heart until Columbus, and now Squirtle. I've been following these 3 players for over a year now and it's great to see some of my favorites finally getting recognition(seems ironic to me that top tier korean players almost have to get foreign results to be recognized).
1) Look at my blog from December (the Power Ranking). I put Oz as the second best Protoss in the world. If anything, my opinion of his play has gone down since then (Parting/Squirtle/Genius have overtaken him).
2) Heart's play still doesn't look too solid to me. If people call Huk "Luk" for his groups in MLG, Heart must be given similar treatment. His Open Bracket run was a joke compared to that of Stephano, Polt or Sheth, and his group was exactly the same one that people gave Huk so much flak for.
3) I wouldn't call Heart a "top tier Korean", and players like Nestea, MKP, Polt, Genius etc were recognized before their foreign results. It wasn't because IPL was a foreign tournament that people recognise Squirtle - it's because he didn't have any other noteworthy results. Same goes for Heart, and other players like ST_Sound from HSC4.
|
3 out of 5 predictions correct so far.
|
On April 12 2012 13:15 Sabu113 wrote: So silly. Trying to make up for the Dead president's thread when tree called a spade a spade. Ridiculous actually.
The proper context would be a PvT matchup where it wasn't a miracle for a Toss to win and where winrates are apporach 50% again. Also, Toss kill moves show up with larger armies later in the game rather than early on. There are certain tech Toss just needs in order to be aggressive. Charge and Collosi namely. Parting has shown quite brilliantly how Templar should be used- defensively.If you look at his games he rarely moves the ungodly and almost unwieldily slow templar forward to storm but rather lets the Terran move into the storm.
Early game PvT is still questionable. The inability of toss to put pressure on Terran in a lot of cases besides direct pressure is a significant and non-trivial problem with the viability of sc2 as an esport.
In a few months we'll realize how important the large map sizes have been and the easy thirds have been to getting an acceptable P winrate. When we start trying to add some more diversity into the map pool again we'll end up with the summer all over again. Winrates look very sensitive to map design.
Now onto the actual group: there's no way squirtle is making it through after all the hype. He's a solid toss but despite his amazing run this weekend his play has looked the weakest of the available code S toss. MMA is kinda screwed because his vP is still crap. Nada though is ripe to upset expectations.
Protoss has THE strongest openers in the game, 4 gate, 3 gate robo (immortal or prism) proxy pylon/proxy gateways... there are a ton of ways protoss can pressure early game, but no one uses them. Just because no one uses them doesnt mean they are not there, but it has been identified that playing a macro PvT is the best way to go, and it is... the problem is Terran has no way to punish greedy openings due to... wait for it... the SENTRY! get rid of this stupid unit, or at least get rid of force fields, the most broken and unnecessary spell in the game. Every single TvP is the same now, especially with the maps the way they are. Make the naturals more open, or get rid of force field and you will see much more exciting, diverse TvP
|
wow all the GSL code S terrans are making me lose all my god damn liquibets :-/
|
No!!! What's going on with MMA? He is much better than this. He's the only Terran I like.
|
The part of those games from Group H that really bothered me the most was the fact that in those games that protoss players insist are so close and the protoss is a few EMPs away from getting rolled in the same fashion as the protoss do to terran, than why were the protoss players completely comfortable losing half their army and then taking another base immediately after the engagement? Because they knew that terran cannot effectively press an advantage enough in the late game scenario with a toss 3+ base. In both series vs parting, Polt and ForGG in the late game had significant supply advantages over their opponent, would win an engagement in a very cost effective way, and would NOT be able to ever press an advantage due to zealot warp ins, archons on demand or just storms at home. This is what feels unfair about the match currently. Theres nothing wrong with at the highest levels of play that the terrans need to have impecable micro to win fights, but when they DO...they should at least be able to gain some ground, and that was not the case at all in those super "close" games.
I don't think nerfing or buffing is the answer until HoTS. There are design issues with protoss that no one can really deny, and i dont think can be solved without ruining other matchups until new units are introduced. As it stands though, 3/3 zealots just scale so well for their ease of being warped in en masse in the lategame. And archons basically on demand like that are so hard to deal with when things go slightly in a protoss favor in an engagment. HTs aren't really the problem IMO, but having so many storms that templars could basically hit a few and erase a 150 supply army ( see parting vs mkp TDA game 2 MLG championships) is definitely not the best design for the game.
That being said, parting certainly has a lot of skill, and besides MC actually has some of the best control I've seen on a protoss. I think based on those matches, he would have advanced even if the MU was more even. I also think maps come into play ( daybreak seems just so impossible). I just wish Polt was rewarded for his seriously inspiring and stellar play from last night, as I think his play last night was the best. Oz really seemed very sloppy, particularly with his control, and I felt was the weakest player overall. It is only one night though, and hopefully moving forward in this season, things won't look so lopsided.
|
On April 12 2012 21:55 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 13:15 Sabu113 wrote: So silly. Trying to make up for the Dead president's thread when tree called a spade a spade. Ridiculous actually.
The proper context would be a PvT matchup where it wasn't a miracle for a Toss to win and where winrates are apporach 50% again. Also, Toss kill moves show up with larger armies later in the game rather than early on. There are certain tech Toss just needs in order to be aggressive. Charge and Collosi namely. Parting has shown quite brilliantly how Templar should be used- defensively.If you look at his games he rarely moves the ungodly and almost unwieldily slow templar forward to storm but rather lets the Terran move into the storm.
Early game PvT is still questionable. The inability of toss to put pressure on Terran in a lot of cases besides direct pressure is a significant and non-trivial problem with the viability of sc2 as an esport.
In a few months we'll realize how important the large map sizes have been and the easy thirds have been to getting an acceptable P winrate. When we start trying to add some more diversity into the map pool again we'll end up with the summer all over again. Winrates look very sensitive to map design.
Now onto the actual group: there's no way squirtle is making it through after all the hype. He's a solid toss but despite his amazing run this weekend his play has looked the weakest of the available code S toss. MMA is kinda screwed because his vP is still crap. Nada though is ripe to upset expectations. Protoss has THE strongest openers in the game, 4 gate, 3 gate robo (immortal or prism) proxy pylon/proxy gateways... there are a ton of ways protoss can pressure early game, but no one uses them. Just because no one uses them doesnt mean they are not there, but it has been identified that playing a macro PvT is the best way to go, and it is... the problem is Terran has no way to punish greedy openings due to... wait for it... the SENTRY! get rid of this stupid unit, or at least get rid of force fields, the most broken and unnecessary spell in the game. Every single TvP is the same now, especially with the maps the way they are. Make the naturals more open, or get rid of force field and you will see much more exciting, diverse TvP Get rid of force fields... I seriously, sincerly hope that was a troll... can you even imagine how retardedly imbalanced ZvP would be if you did that? TvP would see a lot of abusive cheeses that now can only be held of with force fields, but what's more important is that the entire fucking race would fall apart, I don't even...
...balance suggestions like this makes me want to tear my hair off, seriously >.>
|
On April 12 2012 22:38 HaXXspetten wrote: Get rid of force fields... I seriously, sincerly hope that was a troll... can you even imagine how retardedly imbalanced ZvP would be if you did that? TvP would see a lot of abusive cheeses that now can only be held of with force fields, but what's more important is that the entire fucking race would fall apart, I don't even...
...balance suggestions like this makes me want to tear my hair off, seriously >.>
likewise ... but these balance discussions are so much fun to follow with people making such funny observations that completely break a race!
|
Don't count out Nada, He will rise again.
|
Get rid of force fields... I seriously, sincerly hope that was a troll... can you even imagine how retardedly imbalanced ZvP would be if you did that? TvP would see a lot of abusive cheeses that now can only be held of with force fields, but what's more important is that the entire fucking race would fall apart, I don't even...
...balance suggestions like this makes me want to tear my hair off, seriously >.>
I agree it would just be stupid forcefields is the only weapon that let´s protoss survive in early games, retarded suggestion probably from a bronze zerg or terran.
And for the love of god stop with all these balance discussion this is GSL not some blizzard thread go talk about the only foreigner in code s atm, Naniwa. He is up against not only the terran god MVP but also the protoss saint Puzzle. I think i can say that Ryung will end up last but will Naniwa be able to take a serie from wither of the other players? Naniwas PvZ is godlike(he practically created the meta game of FFE by himself), PvT naaaahhh, PvP, really really good, but will he be able to beat Puzzle?
|
Wow. I'm not used to read these reports but is a really bad surprise to see such a balance whine about PvT from such a small sample. I know, he said it, but then he draws so many conclusions from those few games!!
Specially considering the win rates of the real important sample: http://i.imgur.com/VCQcQh.png
And the fact that Parting is known for prolly the best PvT right now.
This bias is not what i expect from an official TL report. Just constructive criticism.
|
On April 12 2012 17:53 Fizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 10:46 INTOtheVOID wrote: I think it's funny that people are just now aware of how good Squirtle is. No one gave two shits about Oz until after winter arena, no one cared about Heart until Columbus, and now Squirtle. I've been following these 3 players for over a year now and it's great to see some of my favorites finally getting recognition(seems ironic to me that top tier korean players almost have to get foreign results to be recognized). Hipster SC2 fan, make all new players favorites, so that he can say he followed them before they got famous.
Yeah, you're right, I should just deny myself the fact that I've been a fan of these 3 players for a while now in order to not be a "hipster". What's the follow up to this? Umadbro or haters gonna hate? Not sure what the current meme metagame is, sorry.
|
Guess theres a lot of protoss in these forums lol... dont get your panties in a knot guys! guess what? forcefields were not in broodwar and you did just fine... you tell me how a terran is supposed to pressure a greedy protoss and ill listen, until then...
|
|
|
|