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5673 Posts
CBNC
Luxury - Despite poor individual league performances, Luxury has lead KT through a great first three weeks of Proleague. Along with Flash, he has made sure that his team has stayed at the top of the rankings, and in doing so has gone 5 - 1, tying with Calm for 2nd place so far this season. Certainly, this twin is not playing spectacularly, his OSL loss to Guemchi showing this better than ever. As an invaluable arm of one of PL's top teams though, he snags a CBNC position with ease.
Pusan - The Legend of the Fall hype aside, Spirit Toss has had a mixed month. Breezing through his OSL group with ease, he then fell in the MST to Jangbi. With wins against Forgg, Canata, Best and Mind though, it's clear that Pusan is very much on his way back to some semblance of form. If he continues to do well in the OSL, and maybe gets played a bit more in Proleague, he just may end up on the PR in the months to come. In fact, one could safely say that the only thing keeping him from a top ten spot right now is the lack of a big name win.
Movie - Probably the most hyped Protoss since Violet, Movie came under the spotlight during the PL playoffs last season where he pulled an amazing win against Leta. This season he blazed through individual groups, but doesn't make the PR because his his biggest win was against hero in the OSL Ro36. To be fair, maybe it's not his fault that he hasn't had a chance to prove himself against a top calibre player yet. All the same, his 1 - 3 PL record puts him on par with firebathero, which in turn makes it very difficult for him to be even considered for the PR this month.
Zero - While Kwanro's move to Stars was expected to boost their Zerg lineup, it was Zero who really stepped up this month as his counterpart failed. With wins against Jaedong, Stats and Bogus this month, he kept the ball rolling for Woongjin and if his OSL win had been against anyone but firebathero, he may have even had a chance of making it on to the PR this month.
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Thanks!
Edit: Flash's record for October is 10-0 though, isn't it?
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Fantasy started off the month with a really bad game against Stats on Destination. I'd like to say his form improved thereafter, but truth be told it didn't, and his three position drop is clearly indicative of this.
Fantasy only dropped two positions. Otherwise, great power rank!
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5673 Posts
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
its not the right shine!!
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5673 Posts
Sorry, there was um, an issue with a dropdown box that has now been resolved. Don't worry, it was given a severe speaking to.
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Meh...
How can you put Kal above Movie? Just because he has got two more PL wins? Their MSL groups were both easy. And Movie crushed ZvP monster by.hero.
Movie is in the OSL Ro16 while Kal failed against Just...
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Finally Flash is back where he belongs
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This PR actually pretty accurately tell people who is the better player now. Good ratio of counting results + watching their actuall skill.
Well done!
Zero just recently started playing really good but that will count for next PR:D
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On November 01 2009 22:49 SuperArc wrote:Meh... How can you put Kal above Movie? Just because he has got two more PL wins? Their MSL groups were both easy. And Movie crushed ZvP monster by.hero. Movie is in the OSL Ro16 while Kal failed against Just...
This is how I'd justify it: Kal won the games he should win. Movie lost to Pure. I'm impressed by the win against by.hero, except that Movie has a reputation for coming up with solid builds and wins against Zergs. (And I don't like by.hero, that too. He's a one-matchup wonder who lacks consistency even there.)
My candidate for #10 would actually be ZerO this month, games against Leta aside. But hey.
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On November 01 2009 22:57 Necosarius wrote:Finally Flash is back where he belongs This.
Imho, if we were to make this PR from results, and not from how good we know they are, bisu and fantasy do not belong that high. Same goes for Jaedong.
Also, "Jaedong has to put his way through October if he wants to stay this high"... Typo @ October?
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Good PR, with some good calls that you probably wont regret the next months, putting Shine/Hyuk higher and youll get hit by raging screaming fanboys as soon as they make a quit exit in the individual leagues, and if they prove they are the real deal, they simply move up, thats how the PR always worked. I really liked how you dealt with it, no10 is truly subjective although kal wasnt on anyones mind but Pusan/Movie/Hwasin were. Nothing to complain about here.
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2nd sentence of flash's description - i think you meant "led," not "lead."
and anyway, always look forward to each month's power rank. i knew this one would be interesting.
thanks!
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Nice PR
I don't think Jaedong is ranked too high, his performance last month was mediocore and some of his losses were BO loss ZvZ's
But then again, I would have placed Calm #2 and JD #3
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5673 Posts
Fixed misc typos. Thanks for pointing them out.
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Jaedong should be out of PR. I thought PR measures only 1 month. And this month every CBNC was better than Jaedong.
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Power Rank is a measure of how well the players play over the given month. I forget who said it, but someone said "if these players were to play a bo5 against each other on the given day, the #1 power rank should beat them all". Basically, it's a measure of the players' current shape and results over time, with the current results being weighted more.
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On November 01 2009 23:35 SkytoM wrote: Jaedong should be out of PR. I thought PR measures only 1 month. And this month every CBNC was better than Jaedong. Well JD is already qualified for both leagues and that shouldn't be counted against him with being 3 - 3 this month 2 - 3 ZvZ he shouldn't drop that much maybe you can argue for Calm being # 2 but after that who else should take the third spot if JD isn't third ? On the other note he apsolutely destroyed Kal showing his ZvP is in top form and while his ZvT hasn't been tested there is no evidence that it declined last month . His biggest loss if you ask me is against Huyk who is in his best form right now . JD went 1 - 1 against Zero winning the important ACE match and had a BO loss against 815 so not much else to say about his ZvZ other then it's not as invincible as before . His stats doesn't show much here when we are talking about back to back reigning OSL champion JD .
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 01 2009 23:35 SkytoM wrote: Jaedong should be out of PR. I thought PR measures only 1 month. And this month every CBNC was better than Jaedong. PR is supposed to be a ranking of the 10 best players in Korea. Riptide looks at the games played over the month and evaluates them - results don't matter so much - more of how the games played out. For instance, a 2gate proxy loss doesn't change much but losing a standard game in humiliating fashion does. Still count as a loss - just one is more indicative of skill than anything else. Results are a good starting point, but can only give a piece of the picture - if you wanted a ranking based on results look at the elo rank or the kespa rank - PR isn't a rehash of either.
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I really liked this ranking, if I made one it would look about the same.
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Very agreeable rank. Thanks.
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I'm just so glad to see Flash back at No1 that I'm not even gonna bother arguing about the other picks. For now...
On November 02 2009 00:17 fanatacist wrote: Very agreeable rank. Thanks.
Happy birthday!
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It's tomorrow but Korean time is apparently the real time in my life so thanks n_n;
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Putting Jaedong on the Power Rank is nothing other than favoritism. He played like crap all month long and doesn't deserve a place on the PR.
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On November 02 2009 00:29 Jadyks wrote: Putting Jaedong on the Power Rank is nothing other than favoritism. He played like crap all month long and doesn't deserve a place on the PR.
Yes and no. Yes he played kind of badly. But he doesn't have a losing record and he's still a favorite in a Best-of-5 against almost anybody not on the PR and some who did make it (hi, Kal, fantasy). I think he's a little too high (I'd put Calm over him and maybe Stork, but then I'm a Stork fanboy) but I'm not ready to argue with him making the PR - yet. If we get another bad month out of him, then I'll consider it.
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On November 02 2009 00:29 Jadyks wrote: Putting Jaedong on the Power Rank is nothing other than favoritism. He played like crap all month long and doesn't deserve a place on the PR.
And I'm calling you out for having a Terran icon and SKT1 icon as bias. He didn't play "crap", but "mediocore" and you noobs exaggerate his slump like no tomorrow. Losing in ZvZ is not big of a deal, we all know ZvZ is most luck-based rock-paper-scissors MU
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On November 02 2009 00:42 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 00:29 Jadyks wrote: Putting Jaedong on the Power Rank is nothing other than favoritism. He played like crap all month long and doesn't deserve a place on the PR. Yes and no. Yes he played kind of badly. But he doesn't have a losing record and he's still a favorite in a Best-of-5 against almost anybody not on the PR and some who did make it (hi, Kal, fantasy). I think he's a little too high (I'd put Calm over him and maybe Stork, but then I'm a Stork fanboy) but I'm not ready to argue with him making the PR - yet. If we get another bad month out of him, then I'll consider it. You think that Jaedong is that high of a favorite over fantasy? I thought that their recent games in the SPL finals would at least add on to the fact that they played a decent series previously, but I guess haters will always be haters. I would agree to putting Calm above Jaedong, but not Stork.
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I do think that Calm should place above Jaedong this month. How can you rate "sloppy play but still wins" worse than "loses outright"? Other than that, pretty decent PR.
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On November 02 2009 00:46 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 00:42 Musoeun wrote:On November 02 2009 00:29 Jadyks wrote: Putting Jaedong on the Power Rank is nothing other than favoritism. He played like crap all month long and doesn't deserve a place on the PR. Yes and no. Yes he played kind of badly. But he doesn't have a losing record and he's still a favorite in a Best-of-5 against almost anybody not on the PR and some who did make it (hi, Kal, fantasy). I think he's a little too high (I'd put Calm over him and maybe Stork, but then I'm a Stork fanboy) but I'm not ready to argue with him making the PR - yet. If we get another bad month out of him, then I'll consider it. You think that Jaedong is that high of a favorite over fantasy? I thought that their recent games in the SPL finals would at least add on to the fact that they played a decent series previously, but I guess haters will always be haters. I would agree to putting Calm above Jaedong, but not Stork. In a Bo5... Anyway, good power rank, hard to find any complaints. Glad you didn't blow up over Hyuk
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Overall, I agree, but Jaedong should NOT be #2.
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United States12607 Posts
I strongly object to JD at 2. He has let down his team more than any other player in PL thus far, and for it he loses one spot in the PR? I think it's sad to see him so far ahead of players that beat him quite soundly this month.
Edit: I should say that the rest of this rank looks pretty spot on. At first I was suspicious of Shine > Hyuk, but I checked out their recent opponents and I think that placement is totally justified. Nice rank overall, riptide.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
My predictions from the last thread were waaay off.
But seriously, Kal at #10? Kal has gone 5-2 with his best win against go.go, and two crushing losses against Jaedong and Really. Pusan has gone 6-3, beating Canata, forGG, Mind, and BeSt in the process - four players who are better than anyone Kal faced. RuBy has also gone 6-3, beating Hwasin, Yellow[ArnC], HiYa, and Pure. Both of these two players have combined similar records to Kal, against better opponents, and looked much more impressive doing it.
I don't understand Jaedong at #2 either. We all know that Jaedong is a monster, yes, but his ZvZ has looked shaky of late, I don't see how you can get around that. He's had an awful month, I thought putting him at #5 would be charitable.
And of course, I think that EffOrt should be way higher for the dominating month he's had.All of the big four except for Flash had real problems this week, and yet EffOrt, after tearing through all of his opponents save Hyuk only moves up one spot? I also thought it stramge that Calm was demoted, not as I thought for his glaring loss to RorO, but because his ZvP looked "shaky" against SangHo. An auxillary reason yes, but the main reason?
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Yeah. About JD, I dont think I would have put him that high. On the other hand he has never played his best at the start of seasons. Guess this month really shows how good you are riptide. If Jd wins much your a genious, if not, your a fool. High risk, high gain.
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On November 02 2009 01:21 Ota Solgryn wrote: Yeah. About JD, I dont think I would have put him that high. On the other hand he has never played his best at the start of seasons. Guess this month really shows how good you are riptide. If Jd wins much your a genious, if not, your a fool. High risk, high gain. Uh the PR isn't a prediction it's an assessment of the current situation. There is no risk or gain because he is just a guy making a ranking of who HE THINKS are the top 10 players on the scene.
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On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote: I strongly object to JD at 2. Because he lost to Hyuk. When you say players who beat him this month, you really just mean Hyuk, and by soundly you mean won a 10 minute ZvZ
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i really like it and agree with most of it, although id rank hyuk over shine.
and i would put movie in instead of kal, but in both cases i can understand ur reasons to choose the contrary positioning.
overall, a really good job!
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excellent pr. i'm glad you are only giving out CBNC and low pr spots to players with isolated great months while leaving players who are proven but had shaky months at the top. it should take several months of great performance to break the top 7 or so, as long as the top 7 did decently. thanks again!
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I object to Jaedong at the #2 position, for the same reasons that people before me have listed. While ZvZ is always heavily luck based, his overall plays looked quite a bit shakier than what one would expect from the Tyrant. His match against Hyuk in particular demonstrated some poor control. He is the hugest let down amongst the big name high point players. I would put him at #5. Calm definitely deserves #2 by proving that he is no one hit wonder who slumps massively after a single starleague victory...unlike some other players...
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On November 02 2009 01:29 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote: I strongly object to JD at 2. Because he lost to Hyuk. When you say players who beat him this month, you really just mean Hyuk, and by soundly you mean won a 10 minute ZvZ Yea since the length of the match considering the MU is largely unreasonable, and thus should not be considered a sound victory.
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Calm has to take the second spot of course, this is obvious. JD should drop to 5 or s.th. like that. Effort should exchange spots with fantasy, Eff. looked a lot better than fantasy lately. Also Hyuk should be ranked higher: Everyone who has followed the scene during the last 4 month in which Hyuk went 37-7 (holy shit!!), might notice that this is the biggest rise in the history of SC since iloveoov came along...
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i agree with most of this months PR.but i disagree with hyuk's placement.i really think he should be placed higher than shine.inspite of that everything is ok.
edit:why isn't ruby even in CBNC????that's a big surprise.
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On November 02 2009 02:06 Polar_Bear wrote: Everyone who has followed the scene during the last 4 month in which Hyuk went 37-7 (holy shit!!), might notice that this is the biggest rise in the history of SC since iloveoov came along...
isn't it 27-4? still amazing but 37 would be unbelievable. To bad his ZvT is so bad, thats really the only reason not to put him much higher.
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Nice to see Flash as #1 :D Expected JD to be a bit lower than #2. I thought Hyuk would be higher than Shine.
Nice PR tho ^^
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After some contemplation, I kind of agree with riptide's reasoning about Jaedong. The players who moved most this month were those who played (and thus either won or lost) important games, which makes sense. With JD already qualified for the next two starleagues, he didn't have much to prove, and going 3-3 in Proleague is not the end of the world, particularly with most of the games being ZvZ. Indeed, none of the other top contenders (apart from Flash) had a brilliant month. I'm not sure if I agree about Kal, though.
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On November 02 2009 02:21 BloodDrunK wrote: i agree with most of this months PR.but i disagree with hyuk's placement.i really think he should be placed higher than shine.inspite of that everything is ok.
edit:why isn't ruby even in CBNC????that's a big surprise.
Judging from Plexa's explanation about Power Rank, which is actually a measurement of the top 10 players rather than the best 10 performing players in a particular month, Ruby isn't even in CBNC because he is still a huge underdog v.s. just about anybody who has some name value. He has yet to defeat a huge ace player.
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I don't want to argue with the semi-divine starcraft authorities of TL, but this has to be one of the PR's I disagree the most with...
No, Shine should not be above Hyuk. Kal shouldn't be in the PR at all - Both Luxury and Movie are way more solid players displaying better results - and also Stork being above Bisu makes no sense to me, which is sad because I still love Stork much more than Bisu...
I accept JD still being #2 for all that he done in the past, but things are looking grim for him. It seems that such a high position is somewhat out of place for him this month. Calm is currently a scarier opponent, that's for sure.
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It's been over two months since the Bacchus OSL. Even if you include WCG qualifier games (and that All-Star game), Jaedong is a hum-drum 7-7 since he won his golden mouse. With other players accomplishing so much last month, it's indefensible to rank Jaedong #2.
I suppose you might think that it's because Jaedong should be able to beat #3-#10 in a Bo3/5, but this is a poor assumption at this point. Please recall that Calm did beat Jaedong in the MSL semifinals. Speaking of whom, you seemed cautiously critical of Calm going 9-2, saying his ZvP needs "fine tuning." He went 6-1 vs toss in October! What more could you want? It matters not how you win, but if you win! No, no, it's Jaedong's ZvZ needs some fine tuning, seeing as how he has a losing record with it in the last month.
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On November 02 2009 00:46 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 00:42 Musoeun wrote:On November 02 2009 00:29 Jadyks wrote: Putting Jaedong on the Power Rank is nothing other than favoritism. He played like crap all month long and doesn't deserve a place on the PR. Yes and no. Yes he played kind of badly. But he doesn't have a losing record and he's still a favorite in a Best-of-5 against almost anybody not on the PR and some who did make it (hi, Kal, fantasy). I think he's a little too high (I'd put Calm over him and maybe Stork, but then I'm a Stork fanboy) but I'm not ready to argue with him making the PR - yet. If we get another bad month out of him, then I'll consider it. You think that Jaedong is that high of a favorite over fantasy? I thought that their recent games in the SPL finals would at least add on to the fact that they played a decent series previously, but I guess haters will always be haters. I would agree to putting Calm above Jaedong, but not Stork.
I'll be honest: I don't like fantasy. So yes, I do think Jaedong is still a favorite over fantasy. Maybe not by much (if you look at my post, my change to the PR would have JD 4, fantasy 6, which isn't a huge difference), but I really don't think fantasy's played very solidly lately, any more than Jaedong has. This month he may be 4-3 overall, but he's 1-2 against good opponents (1-3 if you count Stats' PvT as a good opponent). Jaedong in contrast is 3-3, 2-2 against good opponents. Jaedong does have an inexplicable loss of his own - to 815.
They're performing about equally badly compared to their peaks, but in series play I will still take Jaedong over fantasy every time. If you make it one game, fantasy's more liable to come out with a build and win, but in series play that approach doesn't hold up as well.
EDIT: While I'm at it, the biggest problem with Calm to my mind is that one of his losses was an ace game. The only ace game JD's gotten to play, he won (and essentially made one of his own losses meaningless). Look, in a sane world Jaedong would have played two more ace games than he actually has, and probably would have won both. DarkElf and Modesty? Please. That would give him a 5-3 record, 3 ace wins, 2 leagues, and suddenly #2 makes a lot more sense. I'm not saying that riptide factored that in... but it could be part of it.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 02 2009 02:30 zazen wrote: I don't want to argue with the semi-divine starcraft authorities of TL, but this has to be one of the PR's I disagree the most with...
No, Shine should not be above Hyuk. Kal shouldn't be in the PR at all - Both Luxury and Movie are way more solid players displaying better results - and also Stork being above Bisu makes no sense to me, which is sad because I still love Stork much more than Bisu...
I accept JD still being #2 for all that he done in the past, but things are looking grim for him. It seems that such a high position is somewhat out of place for him this month. Calm is currently a scarier opponent, that's for sure.
I'm going to call you out on saying Luxury deserves to be on this rank. For a person who just went 0-2 in MST, and 1-2 in OSL (against GUEMCHI of all people) there is NO rational justification of why he should be in this ranking.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I agree with the "jaedong is definitely too high" sentiment but have nothing new to add to it that hasn't been said
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I think Shine should be above Hyuk, mostly because of what Plexa or Riptide wrote in BS:BW Vol. 3
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SO happy a Terran is at #1 in Power Rank. There has been ONE Terran (Leta) on top of the power rank in the past 15 months -.-. Great PR, but i still think Luxury should be somewhere on top 10
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I want to register my objection to JD @ #2, way too high for him.
and also FLASH BACK AT #1 BABY... WELCOME HOME!
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On November 02 2009 02:30 zazen wrote: I don't want to argue with the semi-divine starcraft authorities of TL, but this has to be one of the PR's I disagree the most with...
No, Shine should not be above Hyuk. Kal shouldn't be in the PR at all - Both Luxury and Movie are way more solid players displaying better results - and also Stork being above Bisu makes no sense to me, which is sad because I still love Stork much more than Bisu...
I accept JD still being #2 for all that he done in the past, but things are looking grim for him. It seems that such a high position is somewhat out of place for him this month. Calm is currently a scarier opponent, that's for sure.
How is stork not above bisu? I don't understand this. Stork 2-0 his msl and osl group and only lost to hyuk in pl, but he hasn't played many games either. He also recently got first in IEF, which Bisu didn't even make out of his group. And bisu lost to SHINE. Thats pretty disgraceful. Stork also went up against a zerg in his group and he won even though he probably was practicing against skyhigh most of the time.
And jaedong #2 is too high, #3 or 4 fits him.
On November 02 2009 02:32 Musoeun wrote: EDIT: While I'm at it, the biggest problem with Calm to my mind is that one of his losses was an ace game. The only ace game JD's gotten to play, he won (and essentially made one of his own losses meaningless). Look, in a sane world Jaedong would have played two more ace games than he actually has, and probably would have won both. DarkElf and Modesty? Please. That would give him a 5-3 record, 3 ace wins, 2 leagues, and suddenly #2 makes a lot more sense. I'm not saying that riptide factored that in... but it could be part of it.
And PL isn't something they could of done but how they did in the few games they had.
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What? JD second and Bisu fifth? Just no. Calm and Bisu should be 2&3. Stork 5. and then JD 6. Sorry but thats the truth. Rest is ok but Movie instead of Kal.
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On November 02 2009 02:36 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:30 zazen wrote: I don't want to argue with the semi-divine starcraft authorities of TL, but this has to be one of the PR's I disagree the most with...
No, Shine should not be above Hyuk. Kal shouldn't be in the PR at all - Both Luxury and Movie are way more solid players displaying better results - and also Stork being above Bisu makes no sense to me, which is sad because I still love Stork much more than Bisu...
I accept JD still being #2 for all that he done in the past, but things are looking grim for him. It seems that such a high position is somewhat out of place for him this month. Calm is currently a scarier opponent, that's for sure.
I'm going to call you out on saying Luxury deserves to be on this rank. For a person who just went 0-2 in MST, and 1-2 in OSL (against GUEMCHI of all people) there is NO rational justification of why he should be in this ranking.
The reason I think he should be in the PR is because I believe PL results are more worthy of "power" than individual league results. Luxury, along with Flash, is no doubt the reason why KT are standing strong in the first position of the league.
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United States12607 Posts
On November 02 2009 01:29 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote: I strongly object to JD at 2. Because he lost to Hyuk. When you say players who beat him this month, you really just mean Hyuk, and by soundly you mean won a 10 minute ZvZ JD also lost to ZerO…and every ZvZ is 10 minutes, I don't see your point there. JD and Hyuk opened with identical builds, and Hyuk simply outmicroed JD for the win.
Also it's pretty lame to directly edit my quote like that :/
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On November 02 2009 02:43 zazen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:36 Plexa wrote:On November 02 2009 02:30 zazen wrote: I don't want to argue with the semi-divine starcraft authorities of TL, but this has to be one of the PR's I disagree the most with...
No, Shine should not be above Hyuk. Kal shouldn't be in the PR at all - Both Luxury and Movie are way more solid players displaying better results - and also Stork being above Bisu makes no sense to me, which is sad because I still love Stork much more than Bisu...
I accept JD still being #2 for all that he done in the past, but things are looking grim for him. It seems that such a high position is somewhat out of place for him this month. Calm is currently a scarier opponent, that's for sure.
I'm going to call you out on saying Luxury deserves to be on this rank. For a person who just went 0-2 in MST, and 1-2 in OSL (against GUEMCHI of all people) there is NO rational justification of why he should be in this ranking. The reason I think he should be in the PR is because I believe PL results are more worthy of "power" than individual league results. Luxury, along with Flash, is no doubt the reason why KT are standing strong in the first position of the league. What the fuck are you talking about? Individual leagues are HUGE and they contribute greatly to who gets into the pr.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 02 2009 02:43 zazen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:36 Plexa wrote:On November 02 2009 02:30 zazen wrote: I don't want to argue with the semi-divine starcraft authorities of TL, but this has to be one of the PR's I disagree the most with...
No, Shine should not be above Hyuk. Kal shouldn't be in the PR at all - Both Luxury and Movie are way more solid players displaying better results - and also Stork being above Bisu makes no sense to me, which is sad because I still love Stork much more than Bisu...
I accept JD still being #2 for all that he done in the past, but things are looking grim for him. It seems that such a high position is somewhat out of place for him this month. Calm is currently a scarier opponent, that's for sure.
I'm going to call you out on saying Luxury deserves to be on this rank. For a person who just went 0-2 in MST, and 1-2 in OSL (against GUEMCHI of all people) there is NO rational justification of why he should be in this ranking. The reason I think he should be in the PR is because I believe PL results are more worthy of "power" than individual league results. Luxury, along with Flash, is no doubt the reason why KT are standing strong in the first position of the league. cool - so crushing Juni, Killer and Special were such amazing victories. Dude just go watch luxury's last 5 games and you'll see instantly why he didn't make the cut (clue: he played like crap).
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On November 02 2009 02:43 zazen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:36 Plexa wrote:On November 02 2009 02:30 zazen wrote: I don't want to argue with the semi-divine starcraft authorities of TL, but this has to be one of the PR's I disagree the most with...
No, Shine should not be above Hyuk. Kal shouldn't be in the PR at all - Both Luxury and Movie are way more solid players displaying better results - and also Stork being above Bisu makes no sense to me, which is sad because I still love Stork much more than Bisu...
I accept JD still being #2 for all that he done in the past, but things are looking grim for him. It seems that such a high position is somewhat out of place for him this month. Calm is currently a scarier opponent, that's for sure.
I'm going to call you out on saying Luxury deserves to be on this rank. For a person who just went 0-2 in MST, and 1-2 in OSL (against GUEMCHI of all people) there is NO rational justification of why he should be in this ranking. The reason I think he should be in the PR is because I believe PL results are more worthy of "power" than individual league results. Luxury, along with Flash, is no doubt the reason why KT are standing strong in the first position of the league.
How can you value Bo1 games more than Bo3s?
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Doesn't matter, guys, Flash is #1!
Ultimate Weapon back in action, Little Monster eating nooblets! End is nigh! Child Labor powers go!
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Yep, Flash at the top no doubt.
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Actually I have one complaint, after reading through some old PRs.
Please write more in the PR, more exitement and such. The older PRs were more fun to read. :D
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On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote: I strongly object to JD at 2. He has let down his team more than any other player in PL thus far, and for it he loses one spot in the PR? I think it's sad to see him so far ahead of players that beat him quite soundly this month.
Uh he let down his team more then any other player my ass ... He lost 2 games 1 against SKT and 1 against KTF even if he did win them his team was still probably going to lose , because his teammates can't win a game ..... Not to mention that the coach is sending Killer to do a Jaedong's job and that's probably JD's fault to ? He beat Zero for his team to take the win against WJ in the ACE match no one else on Hwaseung can beat Zero . JD losing 2 games isn't the big part why his team is losing it's because his teammates can't win an a regular basis . It's more like Hwaseung has been leting JD down that last PL season and this one then vice versa .
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On November 02 2009 02:49 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote: I strongly object to JD at 2. He has let down his team more than any other player in PL thus far, and for it he loses one spot in the PR? I think it's sad to see him so far ahead of players that beat him quite soundly this month. Uh he let down his team more then any other player my ass ... He lost 2 games 1 against SKT and 1 against KTF even if he did win them his team was still probably going to lose if his teammates can't win a game ..... Not to mention that the coach is sending Killer to do a Jaedong's job and that's probably JD's fault to ? He beat Zero for his team to take the win against WJ in the ACE match no one else on Hwaseung could beat Zero . JD losing 2 games isn't the big part why his team is losing it's because his teammates can't win an a regular basis . But he lost to hyuk and 815. Okay, hyuk is beasting it right now, but its still hyuk.
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On November 02 2009 02:32 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 00:46 fanatacist wrote:On November 02 2009 00:42 Musoeun wrote:On November 02 2009 00:29 Jadyks wrote: Putting Jaedong on the Power Rank is nothing other than favoritism. He played like crap all month long and doesn't deserve a place on the PR. Yes and no. Yes he played kind of badly. But he doesn't have a losing record and he's still a favorite in a Best-of-5 against almost anybody not on the PR and some who did make it (hi, Kal, fantasy). I think he's a little too high (I'd put Calm over him and maybe Stork, but then I'm a Stork fanboy) but I'm not ready to argue with him making the PR - yet. If we get another bad month out of him, then I'll consider it. You think that Jaedong is that high of a favorite over fantasy? I thought that their recent games in the SPL finals would at least add on to the fact that they played a decent series previously, but I guess haters will always be haters. I would agree to putting Calm above Jaedong, but not Stork. I'll be honest: I don't like fantasy. So yes, I do think Jaedong is still a favorite over fantasy. Maybe not by much (if you look at my post, my change to the PR would have JD 4, fantasy 6, which isn't a huge difference), but I really don't think fantasy's played very solidly lately, any more than Jaedong has. This month he may be 4-3 overall, but he's 1-2 against good opponents (1-3 if you count Stats' PvT as a good opponent). Jaedong in contrast is 3-3, 2-2 against good opponents. Jaedong does have an inexplicable loss of his own - to 815. They're performing about equally badly compared to their peaks, but in series play I will still take Jaedong over fantasy every time. If you make it one game, fantasy's more liable to come out with a build and win, but in series play that approach doesn't hold up as well. EDIT: While I'm at it, the biggest problem with Calm to my mind is that one of his losses was an ace game. The only ace game JD's gotten to play, he won (and essentially made one of his own losses meaningless). Look, in a sane world Jaedong would have played two more ace games than he actually has, and probably would have won both. DarkElf and Modesty? Please. That would give him a 5-3 record, 3 ace wins, 2 leagues, and suddenly #2 makes a lot more sense. I'm not saying that riptide factored that in... but it could be part of it. What I was trying to say was that JD vs. Fantasy I'd say is 60-40 in a Bo5, but everyone else (including you) makes it seem to me like you all think JD would curbstomp Fantasy 99 times out of a 100. I don't see how preparation for a BoX and having a different build for each map is that different from a 1 game set in SPL finals - the pressure is there, I guess the thing missing is some of that adaptation to the play of your opponent but if its different builds each time then what effect does it have? Psychological effects can remain but are arguable.
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I just don't believe that Bisu or Flash would have only fallen one spot from number one if they had as terrible a month as JD had.
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On November 02 2009 02:44 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 01:29 n.DieJokes wrote:On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote: I strongly object to JD at 2. Because he lost to Hyuk. When you say players who beat him this month, you really just mean Hyuk, and by soundly you mean won a 10 minute ZvZ JD also lost to ZerO…and every ZvZ is 10 minutes, I don't see your point there. JD and Hyuk opened with identical builds, and Hyuk simply outmicroed JD for the win. Also it's pretty lame to directly edit my quote like that :/
JD lost to ZerO (whom he then beat in an ace match, so I consider the loss meaningless). He lost to Hyuk due to losing an extra overlord (and never looking for Hyuk's in time), which isn't so much a micro mistake as decision-making or something. The loss to 815 is the only "bad" loss. We've seen nothing in leagues yet because he's seeded. He hasn't been playing ace matches because OZ is... building for the future. I really consider this month's results insufficient to say anything about Jaedong's real form, other than that it's not the level it was two-three months ago.
That said I'd still put him at #4 or #5 myself rather than #2, but hey.
On November 02 2009 02:52 fanatacist wrote: What I was trying to say was that JD vs. Fantasy I'd say is 60-40 in a Bo5, but everyone else (including you) makes it seem to me like you all think JD would curbstomp Fantasy 99 times out of a 100. I don't see how preparation for a BoX and having a different build for each map is that different from a 1 game set in SPL finals - the pressure is there, I guess the thing missing is some of that adaptation to the play of your opponent but if its different builds each time then what effect does it have? Psychological effects can remain but are arguable.
Here, let me quote myself: "So yes, I do think Jaedong is still a favorite over fantasy. Maybe not by much (if you look at my post, my change to the PR would have JD 4, fantasy 6, which isn't a huge difference)... in series play I will still take Jaedong over fantasy every time. If you make it one game, fantasy's more liable to come out with a build and win..."
Yes, I think Jaedong's better than fantasy in a BoX series. No, I wouldn't bet on JD in a single game. How is that saying "curbstomp 99 times out of 100"? I'm trying to be reasonable here, and you're basically accusing me of being a rabid JD fanboy.
As for the difference between single sets and series: Jaedong is 2-0 in Bo5s against fantasy, set score 6-3. Jaedong is 1-3 against fantasy in Proleague games. The evidence - and the way gamers talk about it - suggests there's a significant difference in there somewhere.
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On November 02 2009 02:55 Slow Motion wrote: I just don't believe that Bisu or Flash would have only fallen one spot from number one if they had as terrible a month as JD had. Flash? He killed everyone.
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On November 02 2009 02:55 Slow Motion wrote: I just don't believe that Bisu or Flash would have only fallen one spot from number one if they had as terrible a month as JD had.
Yeah, Bisu sure wouldnt. I mean when he was kicked out from BOTH leagues by then mediocre zergs he only fell down to #7.
Nooo, Bisu would have stayed #2 or even got #1.
EDIT: Sorry Bisu only fell down to #5, not #7.
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On November 02 2009 02:51 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:49 raga4ka wrote:On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote: I strongly object to JD at 2. He has let down his team more than any other player in PL thus far, and for it he loses one spot in the PR? I think it's sad to see him so far ahead of players that beat him quite soundly this month. Uh he let down his team more then any other player my ass ... He lost 2 games 1 against SKT and 1 against KTF even if he did win them his team was still probably going to lose if his teammates can't win a game ..... Not to mention that the coach is sending Killer to do a Jaedong's job and that's probably JD's fault to ? He beat Zero for his team to take the win against WJ in the ACE match no one else on Hwaseung could beat Zero . JD losing 2 games isn't the big part why his team is losing it's because his teammates can't win an a regular basis . But he lost to hyuk and 815. Okay, hyuk is beasting it right now, but its still hyuk. Calm lost to Roro in the ACE match who after that was beaten by savior's ZvZ . Those this meen Calm is bad at ZvZ and should be lower on the rank ? i don't think so ....
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I can agree with 2 of this month's placements: Flash and Fantasy. I'm usually all for giving the PR creator a generous amount of discretion, but... this time, the placements were generally off the mark IMO. There's plenty of names I'd have shuffled around- generally the same ones you claimed would be contested. JD at #2 is... just... wrong.
I appreciate the effort, but I liked JWD's PRs much better- I can't relate to this one at all.
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On November 02 2009 03:02 Zato-1 wrote: I can agree with 2 of this month's placements: Flash and Fantasy. I'm usually all for giving the PR creator a generous amount of discretion, but... this time, the placements were generally off the mark IMO. There's plenty of names I'd have shuffled around- generally the same ones you claimed would be contested. JD at #2 is... just... wrong.
I appreciate the effort, but I liked JWD's PRs much better- I can't relate to this one at all. Why? Because its skt biased?
On November 02 2009 03:00 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:51 MuffinDude wrote:On November 02 2009 02:49 raga4ka wrote:On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote: I strongly object to JD at 2. He has let down his team more than any other player in PL thus far, and for it he loses one spot in the PR? I think it's sad to see him so far ahead of players that beat him quite soundly this month. Uh he let down his team more then any other player my ass ... He lost 2 games 1 against SKT and 1 against KTF even if he did win them his team was still probably going to lose if his teammates can't win a game ..... Not to mention that the coach is sending Killer to do a Jaedong's job and that's probably JD's fault to ? He beat Zero for his team to take the win against WJ in the ACE match no one else on Hwaseung could beat Zero . JD losing 2 games isn't the big part why his team is losing it's because his teammates can't win an a regular basis . But he lost to hyuk and 815. Okay, hyuk is beasting it right now, but its still hyuk. Calm lost to Roro in the ACE match who after that was beaten by savior's ZvZ . Those this meen Calm is bad at ZvZ and should be lower on the rank ? i don't think so .... Calm only lost once and jaedong lost to hyuk and 815, and 815 hasn't done shit yet.
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It came out on the 1st!?!?!? WHOA Flash fanboy??!?!? Maybe...
But, seriously though, the guy does look like he's been playing a different game entirely the last few weeks. I don't agree with #2... but the rest of it looks pretty good.
With the whole "imba" thing maybe a few of the Zergs should have been higher up? Not that I agree, but it does seem like the good Zergs are steamrolling these days. When I joined TL about a year ago it was all about the Dragons and how bad Protoss were broken. Id love to see Flash and company start a huge debate about Terran imba... Splash damage etc. That would be hilarious
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On November 02 2009 02:55 Musoeun wrote: JD lost to ZerO (whom he then beat in an ace match, so I consider the loss meaningless). I don't think you can call that meaningless, since Jaedong had to hope his team could take it to Ace (which they did). The fact that he got a second chance was not something in his control (unlike had he lost the first game in a Bo3 or something.He lost to Hyuk due to losing an extra overlord (and never looking for Hyuk's in time), which isn't so much a micro mistake as decision-making or something. The loss to 815 is the only "bad" loss. First of all, why does bad decision-making make for a "better" loss? Second of all, the loss to Hyuk had much more to do with micro over decision-making compared to the loss to 815, which I think was a 12-hatch vs. 9-pool. Did you even watch both games?We've seen nothing in leagues yet because he's seeded. He hasn't been playing ace matches because OZ is... building for the future. I really consider this month's results insufficient to say anything about Jaedong's real form, other than that it's not the level it was two-three months ago. But the PR has to be at least in large part based on this month's results, doesn't it?
That said I'd still put him at #4 or #5 myself rather than #2, but hey. Well, I agree with you there.
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On November 02 2009 02:55 Slow Motion wrote: I just don't believe that Bisu or Flash would have only fallen one spot from number one if they had as terrible a month as JD had.
Here's the last time Flash had a mediocre month..
(Also 3-3 isn't a "terrible" month, especially when one of the losses (to ZerO) is essentially meaningless. It's an average month, it just looks really bad because it's Jaedong, and Jaedong is the Tyrant, the third winner of the Golden Mouse, yadda yadda yadda.)
EDIT: Why am I even defending JD's placement? I don't even like the guy, I don't think he actually deserves the #2 spot... I guess I'm just upset by people teeing off on the guy like 3-3 is the end of the world.
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I'm biased, but I would have put Zero onto the PR. Perversely, I think he got hurt by being seeded into MSL and only having to play two games in OSL since it meant he had less games this month. He did thrash FBH in OSL and went 5-3 in PL, with the 3 losses being to Leta (x2) and Jaedong. He's also been clearly established as Woongjin's ace, having played all 3 ace matches so far. I think that certainly puts him above Kal at least.
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As much as I like them, I think JD and Kal don't deserve those spots ><
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On November 02 2009 02:55 Slow Motion wrote: I just don't believe that Bisu or Flash would have only fallen one spot from number one if they had as terrible a month as JD had. If losing 2 games that mattered to courtain degree in PL is a terrible month then i don't know what will happen if Jaedong wins an other OSL and losses everything else he probably will get kicked out of the PR ...... Just because JD has played only six games and lost 3 ( 2 that mattered ) doesn't meen he's had a terrible month . He has had way more terrible months and was still # 1 on the PR . He lost to han in the offlines of the OSL a few seasons back and if i recall he was still # 1 on the PR and with good reason .
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i dont have a lto of time to write now, but i gotta say it was a ballsy move to rank JD second. Good PR all around
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Jaedong's lack of games are due to retarded coaching decisions in proleague that have Killer playing important and valuable Ace games (and losing them, where Jaedong would win) and the fact that he advanced so deep in both leagues he's seeded past the place we are in both tournaments. If he hadn't gotten those seeds last season he would have had an opportunity to pad his record by smashing lower ranked players this month like some of the others on the PR. That's why Jaedong's place on the rank isn't as susceptible to movement *this month* as other players. He's got a bye in the individual leagues and it shouldn't be counted against him until he starts playing those games.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 02 2009 03:02 Zato-1 wrote: I appreciate the effort, but I liked JWD's PRs much better- I can't relate to this one at all. Each writer looks at PR a different way. JWD was probably the PR writer who focused more on results than any other PR writer (not that thats a bad thing, it's at his discretion). So if you think results speak volumes then yea, I can see why you'd like JWDs ranks more. If you think that the game quality and context have anything to do with it - then you'd probably enjoy etter's rankings and steves rankings a lot more. I think riptide has a balance between the two tbh!
I gotta say though, Flash getting dropped from the PR when he was destroying GOM was just so utterly wrong =/
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Nice power rank. I didn't know Shine or Stork did so well this month. Gonna check out their recent vods now. Good job Riptide
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Jaedong #2??? I have laughted the shit out of my pants
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Why hasn't Hwasin been mentioned at all? 5-1 and made in into both leagues and he's not even a CBNC?
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I really don't think it's justifiable to put JD at #2. Putting him above Calm is ridiculous, as is putting him above Stork. Above Bisu is fine, as Bisu did lose that series to Shine. Fantasy at 6 is funny. Kal is playing much better than Movie in every matchup except pvz. Yeah, we're impressed by it because everyone else is failing at pvz (besides Flying), but it's no excuse for a terrible, terrible pvp.
There is one player who I think should be on the CBNC at the least, Ruby. He's qualified for both leagues right after transferring to Ace and been playing very well.
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United States10328 Posts
FLASHHHHHHHHHHHH <3
yeah I think jaedong should be below calm and stork... :/ losing too much ZvZ here. But ZvZ is ZvZ I guess... maybe some of his JvZ luster is falling off?
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
This isn't a black and white argument.
The power rank is neither a judgment of who the best players in BW are, nor is it some kind of reward for having a good month. In fact, the best PR's are a mix of the two, they should seek to balance past performance and current play.
Jaedong had an awful month. I find his rank at #2 incredibly bizarre, because he went 3-3, this month, with embarrassing losses that led to embarrassing 0-3's for his team. Consider if Stork had a month like that, losing a bunch of games in his best MU, and having Khan get 0-3'd every time (well, that much is true at least). Stork wouldn't even make this PR! Jaedong, as last month's #1, is entitled to some respect, and we all know that he has the potential to roar back in this next month. Yet keeping Jaedong at #2 is to completely ignore how vulnerable his flagship match-up has looked recently. I just don't get it.
The more I look at this rank, the less I'm able to reconcile some of the justifications here. So much of it is based on the past, nothing really seems to reflect the reality of this month. This feels like last month's PR, with the obvious stragglers - Iris, YellOw[ArnC] removed.
And while focus has shifted towards Movie for some strange reason, I think Pusan AND RuBy have both played excellently, and definately stronger than Kal. I just don't get #10 Kal at all.
On November 02 2009 03:22 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 03:02 Zato-1 wrote: I appreciate the effort, but I liked JWD's PRs much better- I can't relate to this one at all. Each writer looks at PR a different way. JWD was probably the PR writer who focused more on results than any other PR writer (not that thats a bad thing, it's at his discretion). So if you think results speak volumes then yea, I can see why you'd like JWDs ranks more. If you think that the game quality and context have anything to do with it - then you'd probably enjoy etter's rankings and steves rankings a lot more. I think riptide has a balance between the two tbh! I gotta say though, Flash getting dropped from the PR when he was destroying GOM was just so utterly wrong =/
I think JWD was mostly right, although all anyone remembers was "No Flash" and "ZerO>Jaedong". Riptide's PR seems highly based on pedigree. In that same month, Flash also fell out of the OSL and MSl though. Nobody cared about GOM.
EDIT for three posts below. + Show Spoiler +On November 02 2009 03:38 pvzvt wrote:i must say i thought this will be the most contreversial power rank ever but you managed to hit the nail in the coffin. great PR !!! cant say like most others that i would like some people higher and some lower but your explanations are logical and i cant disagree with none of your choices , great job and bravo for making the hardest pr in my memory to be the calmest in remarks So you can not... disagree... with none of the choices. So you can disagree with all of the choices?
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On November 02 2009 03:05 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 03:02 Zato-1 wrote: I can agree with 2 of this month's placements: Flash and Fantasy. I'm usually all for giving the PR creator a generous amount of discretion, but... this time, the placements were generally off the mark IMO. There's plenty of names I'd have shuffled around- generally the same ones you claimed would be contested. JD at #2 is... just... wrong.
I appreciate the effort, but I liked JWD's PRs much better- I can't relate to this one at all. Why? Because its skt biased? Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 03:00 raga4ka wrote:On November 02 2009 02:51 MuffinDude wrote:On November 02 2009 02:49 raga4ka wrote:On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote: I strongly object to JD at 2. He has let down his team more than any other player in PL thus far, and for it he loses one spot in the PR? I think it's sad to see him so far ahead of players that beat him quite soundly this month. Uh he let down his team more then any other player my ass ... He lost 2 games 1 against SKT and 1 against KTF even if he did win them his team was still probably going to lose if his teammates can't win a game ..... Not to mention that the coach is sending Killer to do a Jaedong's job and that's probably JD's fault to ? He beat Zero for his team to take the win against WJ in the ACE match no one else on Hwaseung could beat Zero . JD losing 2 games isn't the big part why his team is losing it's because his teammates can't win an a regular basis . But he lost to hyuk and 815. Okay, hyuk is beasting it right now, but its still hyuk. Calm lost to Roro in the ACE match who after that was beaten by savior's ZvZ . Those this meen Calm is bad at ZvZ and should be lower on the rank ? i don't think so .... Calm only lost once and jaedong lost to hyuk and 815, and 815 hasn't done shit yet. On a good day i think even i can take a good # of games of JD if I 9 pool speed and he 12 hat on a 2 players map . It's a risky build like 14 cc , but a lot more common in ZvZ . In ZvZ there is always a build that counters the other to a certain degree , but 9 pool speed against 12 hat is considered a BO loss it's got nothing to do with how good your opponent is and how bad you are .
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It's great to see a PR that respects performance prior to the month at hand. To be honest, riptide could have juggled ranks 2-5 any which way and been right, but placing Jaedong at 2 shows (at least to my partisan heart) that he knows how to weigh all the facts and deliver judgment impartially. riptide's probably the best new writer to happen to TL since Plexa himself, and for similar reasons: they give respect before they expect to get it, and as a result they always know what they're talking about. Hats off to riptide, and may his tenure as PR author reach far into the future!
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i must say i thought this will be the most contreversial power rank ever but you managed to hit the nail in the coffin. great PR !!! cant say like most others that i would like some people higher and some lower but your explanations are logical and i cant disagree with none of your choices , great job and bravo for making the hardest pr in my memory to be the calmest in remarks
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On November 02 2009 03:22 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 03:02 Zato-1 wrote: I appreciate the effort, but I liked JWD's PRs much better- I can't relate to this one at all. Each writer looks at PR a different way. JWD was probably the PR writer who focused more on results than any other PR writer (not that thats a bad thing, it's at his discretion). So if you think results speak volumes then yea, I can see why you'd like JWDs ranks more. If you think that the game quality and context have anything to do with it - then you'd probably enjoy etter's rankings and steves rankings a lot more. I think riptide has a balance between the two tbh! That could be it. I'll be the first to admit I've only watched a fraction of the month's games, so of course I'm missing out on a lot of context... I'm just amazed at the huge dissonance between my (admittedly uninformed) opinion and riptide's PR. I have to give him props for some very polished writing skills, though! He should seriously consider asking a newspaper for some space for an opinion column. I'm saying this from personal experience- I write for a local paper weekly, and if he has interesting topics to write about, the way he delivers his ideas is easily worthy of the written press.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
lol what do you think riptide's day job is? (or was?)
No prizes for guessing
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On November 02 2009 03:49 Plexa wrote:lol what do you think riptide's day job is? (or was?) No prizes for guessing omg. You're telling me he has more written content that I don't know of? Links please :D
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PR really has no criteria and is mostly about whatever the writer wants.
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there's just no real reason for JD to be above Calm this month. This is one of the worst month's JD has ever had in his career, ESPECIALLY since all of his loses were ZvZ.
And TBH PRs are always changing their stance on "strongest player ATM" vs "strongest player of the month". Just look at that time Zero was the highest ranked Zerg on it.
Admittedly Calm did lose the ace match vs Roro, but it wasn't necassarily bad play and he was a big BO disadvantage (even though I'd say that's not an excuse for losing in ZvZ any more).
It's hard to ignore 9-2, especially when Flash at #1 (or even JD at #2) didnt really have any harder competition.
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On November 02 2009 04:09 Ideas wrote: there's just no real reason for JD to be above Calm this month. This is one of the worst month's JD has ever had in his career, ESPECIALLY since all of his loses were ZvZ.
And TBH PRs are always changing their stance on "strongest player ATM" vs "strongest player of the month". Just look at that time Zero was the highest ranked Zerg on it.
Admittedly Calm did lose the ace match vs Roro, but it wasn't necassarily bad play and he was a big BO disadvantage (even though I'd say that's not an excuse for losing in ZvZ any more).
It's hard to ignore 9-2, especially when Flash at #1 (or even JD at #2) didnt really have any harder competition.
It seems really nuts to have some one with a 9-2 record below someone with a 3-3 record. I mean coooooooome on.
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On November 02 2009 02:55 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:44 JWD wrote:On November 02 2009 01:29 n.DieJokes wrote:On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote: I strongly object to JD at 2. Because he lost to Hyuk. When you say players who beat him this month, you really just mean Hyuk, and by soundly you mean won a 10 minute ZvZ JD also lost to ZerO…and every ZvZ is 10 minutes, I don't see your point there. JD and Hyuk opened with identical builds, and Hyuk simply outmicroed JD for the win. Also it's pretty lame to directly edit my quote like that :/ JD lost to ZerO (whom he then beat in an ace match, so I consider the loss meaningless). He lost to Hyuk due to losing an extra overlord (and never looking for Hyuk's in time), which isn't so much a micro mistake as decision-making or something. The loss to 815 is the only "bad" loss. We've seen nothing in leagues yet because he's seeded. He hasn't been playing ace matches because OZ is... building for the future. I really consider this month's results insufficient to say anything about Jaedong's real form, other than that it's not the level it was two-three months ago. That said I'd still put him at #4 or #5 myself rather than #2, but hey. Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 02:52 fanatacist wrote: What I was trying to say was that JD vs. Fantasy I'd say is 60-40 in a Bo5, but everyone else (including you) makes it seem to me like you all think JD would curbstomp Fantasy 99 times out of a 100. I don't see how preparation for a BoX and having a different build for each map is that different from a 1 game set in SPL finals - the pressure is there, I guess the thing missing is some of that adaptation to the play of your opponent but if its different builds each time then what effect does it have? Psychological effects can remain but are arguable. Here, let me quote myself: "So yes, I do think Jaedong is still a favorite over fantasy. Maybe not by much (if you look at my post, my change to the PR would have JD 4, fantasy 6, which isn't a huge difference)... in series play I will still take Jaedong over fantasy every time. If you make it one game, fantasy's more liable to come out with a build and win..." Yes, I think Jaedong's better than fantasy in a BoX series. No, I wouldn't bet on JD in a single game. How is that saying "curbstomp 99 times out of 100"? I'm trying to be reasonable here, and you're basically accusing me of being a rabid JD fanboy. As for the difference between single sets and series: Jaedong is 2-0 in Bo5s against fantasy, set score 6-3. Jaedong is 1-3 against fantasy in Proleague games. The evidence - and the way gamers talk about it - suggests there's a significant difference in there somewhere. Haha okay I know it came off that way but I was explaining my first response - I wasn't accusing you of those things. Your post was agreeable.
Like I said, psychological effects can remain - that is probably the determining factor in this case and I think that's very interesting. Although, we are of course overlooking maps and etc., but that's not really an argument I want to get into. Just GGs is all that matters (:
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I would put Calm above JD too but I'm actually ok with JD being 2nd (though it is funny that Flash once dropped off the rank for having a rough month).
Reason being - JD is kind of just hanging out right now, first month of PL, no leagues to qualify for. He just won his THIRD OSL and the new leagues haven't started since then. He's the favorite in any BO5 at the moment and the best player in the world. In other words - he's achieved near "Savior right after OSL" status as a guy who has earned a higher level of respect in the PR than everyone else has. Nobody else is allowed to have a month off, but JD is. Unfair? Win a Golden Mouse and back to back OSLs and still be the best player in the world afterward and you can get away with it too.
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United States13143 Posts
On November 02 2009 03:32 Holgerius wrote: Why hasn't Hwasin been mentioned at all? 5-1 and made in into both leagues and he's not even a CBNC? Because he's Hwasin and does this shit every single time. He always gets into the MSL, almost always gets into the OSL, and ends up losing at the Ro16 every time. Not only that, but people like Notice and Last are seeing proleague playtime over him.
Good PR overall, I think I'd switch Jaedong and Calm, but that's about it.
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5/10 zerg i wonder how it will look next month when savior re-enters the top10 jd calm effort hyuk savior and probably shine & zero
great :x
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On November 02 2009 04:09 Ideas wrote: there's just no real reason for JD to be above Calm this month. This is one of the worst month's JD has ever had in his career, ESPECIALLY since all of his loses were ZvZ.
And TBH PRs are always changing their stance on "strongest player ATM" vs "strongest player of the month". Just look at that time Zero was the highest ranked Zerg on it.
Admittedly Calm did lose the ace match vs Roro, but it wasn't necassarily bad play and he was a big BO disadvantage (even though I'd say that's not an excuse for losing in ZvZ any more).
It's hard to ignore 9-2, especially when Flash at #1 (or even JD at #2) didnt really have any harder competition.
While it wasn't specifically stated, Flash's craziness also came from pulling a 10-0 while sick, and having to play Proleague (which comes with ace duty practice) and OSL qualifiers in the same day, which is a lot to pull off in one day and come out flawless.
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On November 02 2009 04:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 04:09 Ideas wrote: there's just no real reason for JD to be above Calm this month. This is one of the worst month's JD has ever had in his career, ESPECIALLY since all of his loses were ZvZ.
And TBH PRs are always changing their stance on "strongest player ATM" vs "strongest player of the month". Just look at that time Zero was the highest ranked Zerg on it.
Admittedly Calm did lose the ace match vs Roro, but it wasn't necassarily bad play and he was a big BO disadvantage (even though I'd say that's not an excuse for losing in ZvZ any more).
It's hard to ignore 9-2, especially when Flash at #1 (or even JD at #2) didnt really have any harder competition. While it wasn't specifically stated, Flash's craziness also came from pulling a 10-0 while sick, and having to play Proleague (which comes with ace duty practice) and OSL qualifiers in the same day, which is a lot to pull off in one day and come out flawless.
every progamer always says they're sick. Even calm said he was sick last week.
Main point being I think progamers just say they are sick a lot and might not actually be sick a lot.
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On November 02 2009 04:44 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 04:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:On November 02 2009 04:09 Ideas wrote: there's just no real reason for JD to be above Calm this month. This is one of the worst month's JD has ever had in his career, ESPECIALLY since all of his loses were ZvZ.
And TBH PRs are always changing their stance on "strongest player ATM" vs "strongest player of the month". Just look at that time Zero was the highest ranked Zerg on it.
Admittedly Calm did lose the ace match vs Roro, but it wasn't necassarily bad play and he was a big BO disadvantage (even though I'd say that's not an excuse for losing in ZvZ any more).
It's hard to ignore 9-2, especially when Flash at #1 (or even JD at #2) didnt really have any harder competition. While it wasn't specifically stated, Flash's craziness also came from pulling a 10-0 while sick, and having to play Proleague (which comes with ace duty practice) and OSL qualifiers in the same day, which is a lot to pull off in one day and come out flawless. every progamer always says they're sick. Even calm said he was sick last week. Main point being I think progamers just say they are sick a lot and might not actually be sick a lot.
He almost forfeited all his games that day.
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On November 02 2009 04:49 Orbifold wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 04:44 Ideas wrote:On November 02 2009 04:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:On November 02 2009 04:09 Ideas wrote: there's just no real reason for JD to be above Calm this month. This is one of the worst month's JD has ever had in his career, ESPECIALLY since all of his loses were ZvZ.
And TBH PRs are always changing their stance on "strongest player ATM" vs "strongest player of the month". Just look at that time Zero was the highest ranked Zerg on it.
Admittedly Calm did lose the ace match vs Roro, but it wasn't necassarily bad play and he was a big BO disadvantage (even though I'd say that's not an excuse for losing in ZvZ any more).
It's hard to ignore 9-2, especially when Flash at #1 (or even JD at #2) didnt really have any harder competition. While it wasn't specifically stated, Flash's craziness also came from pulling a 10-0 while sick, and having to play Proleague (which comes with ace duty practice) and OSL qualifiers in the same day, which is a lot to pull off in one day and come out flawless. every progamer always says they're sick. Even calm said he was sick last week. Main point being I think progamers just say they are sick a lot and might not actually be sick a lot. He almost forfeited all his games that day.
do you have any other evidence for this other than his interview?
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 02 2009 04:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 04:09 Ideas wrote: there's just no real reason for JD to be above Calm this month. This is one of the worst month's JD has ever had in his career, ESPECIALLY since all of his loses were ZvZ.
And TBH PRs are always changing their stance on "strongest player ATM" vs "strongest player of the month". Just look at that time Zero was the highest ranked Zerg on it.
Admittedly Calm did lose the ace match vs Roro, but it wasn't necassarily bad play and he was a big BO disadvantage (even though I'd say that's not an excuse for losing in ZvZ any more).
It's hard to ignore 9-2, especially when Flash at #1 (or even JD at #2) didnt really have any harder competition. While it wasn't specifically stated, Flash's craziness also came from pulling a 10-0 while sick, and having to play Proleague (which comes with ace duty practice) and OSL qualifiers in the same day, which is a lot to pull off in one day and come out flawless.
T3, Flash is #1, and you're still going on about how he's even better than we think?
He's at the top, no need to say anymore!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 02 2009 04:29 darktreb wrote: I would put Calm above JD too but I'm actually ok with JD being 2nd (though it is funny that Flash once dropped off the rank for having a rough month).
Reason being - JD is kind of just hanging out right now, first month of PL, no leagues to qualify for. He just won his THIRD OSL and the new leagues haven't started since then. He's the favorite in any BO5 at the moment and the best player in the world. In other words - he's achieved near "Savior right after OSL" status as a guy who has earned a higher level of respect in the PR than everyone else has. Nobody else is allowed to have a month off, but JD is. Unfair? Win a Golden Mouse and back to back OSLs and still be the best player in the world afterward and you can get away with it too. This guy gets it! (Plus JD's ZvP/ZvT just look a bit stronger than Calms at the moment, particularly ZvP)
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On November 02 2009 05:05 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 04:49 Orbifold wrote:On November 02 2009 04:44 Ideas wrote:On November 02 2009 04:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:On November 02 2009 04:09 Ideas wrote: there's just no real reason for JD to be above Calm this month. This is one of the worst month's JD has ever had in his career, ESPECIALLY since all of his loses were ZvZ.
And TBH PRs are always changing their stance on "strongest player ATM" vs "strongest player of the month". Just look at that time Zero was the highest ranked Zerg on it.
Admittedly Calm did lose the ace match vs Roro, but it wasn't necassarily bad play and he was a big BO disadvantage (even though I'd say that's not an excuse for losing in ZvZ any more).
It's hard to ignore 9-2, especially when Flash at #1 (or even JD at #2) didnt really have any harder competition. While it wasn't specifically stated, Flash's craziness also came from pulling a 10-0 while sick, and having to play Proleague (which comes with ace duty practice) and OSL qualifiers in the same day, which is a lot to pull off in one day and come out flawless. every progamer always says they're sick. Even calm said he was sick last week. Main point being I think progamers just say they are sick a lot and might not actually be sick a lot. He almost forfeited all his games that day. do you have any other evidence for this other than his interview?
Do you have any evidence when you are suggesting that he might be lying. I would say that him canceling his first interview after the PL match speaks to the fact that he was sick. Progamers in my opinion don't usually cancel their interviews.
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On November 02 2009 05:06 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 04:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:On November 02 2009 04:09 Ideas wrote: there's just no real reason for JD to be above Calm this month. This is one of the worst month's JD has ever had in his career, ESPECIALLY since all of his loses were ZvZ.
And TBH PRs are always changing their stance on "strongest player ATM" vs "strongest player of the month". Just look at that time Zero was the highest ranked Zerg on it.
Admittedly Calm did lose the ace match vs Roro, but it wasn't necassarily bad play and he was a big BO disadvantage (even though I'd say that's not an excuse for losing in ZvZ any more).
It's hard to ignore 9-2, especially when Flash at #1 (or even JD at #2) didnt really have any harder competition. While it wasn't specifically stated, Flash's craziness also came from pulling a 10-0 while sick, and having to play Proleague (which comes with ace duty practice) and OSL qualifiers in the same day, which is a lot to pull off in one day and come out flawless. T3, Flash is #1, and you're still going on about how he's even better than we think? He's at the top, no need to say anymore!
I WILL NEVER STOP
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I would put Calm 2nd place Stork for 3rd and Jaedong at 4th for this month and Movie deserve at least 10th place.
With rest i kinda agree.
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
I would give Hogil a CBNC as well with maybe Guemchi.
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On November 02 2009 05:59 SilverskY wrote:I would give HoGiL a CBNC as well with maybe GuemChi.
GuemChi? Then sAviOr would earn a CBNC too lol.
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People who are saying that JD deserves a break because this is his month off should remember his performance in the PL finals, he has looked a little shaky for a while. I don't think it's a big deal, but Calm really deserved 2nd this month.
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I usually do not disagree with powerranks but this month was a bit strange. I'd replace Kal with Zero, it seems like you even forgot to put him in close but no cigar which was very strange. Zero has been pretty impressive last month. JD should switch with Stork. Ruby should switch with Luxury for close but no cigar.
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The PR looks great this month with the sole exception of JD being #2...I understand the want to keep a player who you think 'might pull it together and destroy everyone again' next month high, but if that's the case, #4 would have been fine...it would have just been a +3 jump next month if he turned godmode on again.
As it stands now, not only did JD have a pretty mediocre month, but he didn't really look any stronger than any other A-class Zerg in his games to me. I'd say Flash and Calm are both clear favorites over him in his current form in a Bo5 right now.
But eh, I guess we'll see what's up with JD in this coming month.
Anyway, yay for Flash taking his throne again. It's been over a year since Flash was #1, it's good to see him back there again.
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This is the best PR ive seen in awhile. I liked the reasoning behind everything. I think it takes the wind out of fanboys sails very well. Great Job!
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Stork is finally getting to where he desrves. He told us all that he would start trying again, caring not only for himself but for his career.
Dinotoss is going all the way.
Stork> Bisu
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Weeh Flash! though it's a shame he didn't snag any big names on his way to #1. So many programers are doing well this month, it's really confusing to arrange who is who on the 8th to 10th spot.
I personally disagree with Jaedong and Bisu's ranks especially with his recent performance in IEF (if it counts).
Other than that, good read.
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On November 02 2009 06:26 Shauni wrote: I usually do not disagree with powerranks but this month was a bit strange. I'd replace Kal with Zero, it seems like you even forgot to put him in close but no cigar which was very strange. Zero has been pretty impressive last month. JD should switch with Stork. Ruby should switch with Luxury for close but no cigar.
Zero beat no one good except Light and Jaedong (where he lost to him where it mattered most, ace match)
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I agree with JD at number 2. He's still the best even if this month hasnt been a great example of his talent
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HyuK FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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wow terran are sucking. Flash/Fantasy the only terrans. none considered in CBNC
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On November 02 2009 03:35 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 03:05 MuffinDude wrote:On November 02 2009 03:02 Zato-1 wrote: I can agree with 2 of this month's placements: Flash and Fantasy. I'm usually all for giving the PR creator a generous amount of discretion, but... this time, the placements were generally off the mark IMO. There's plenty of names I'd have shuffled around- generally the same ones you claimed would be contested. JD at #2 is... just... wrong.
I appreciate the effort, but I liked JWD's PRs much better- I can't relate to this one at all. Why? Because its skt biased? On November 02 2009 03:00 raga4ka wrote:On November 02 2009 02:51 MuffinDude wrote:On November 02 2009 02:49 raga4ka wrote:On November 02 2009 01:13 JWD wrote: I strongly object to JD at 2. He has let down his team more than any other player in PL thus far, and for it he loses one spot in the PR? I think it's sad to see him so far ahead of players that beat him quite soundly this month. Uh he let down his team more then any other player my ass ... He lost 2 games 1 against SKT and 1 against KTF even if he did win them his team was still probably going to lose if his teammates can't win a game ..... Not to mention that the coach is sending Killer to do a Jaedong's job and that's probably JD's fault to ? He beat Zero for his team to take the win against WJ in the ACE match no one else on Hwaseung could beat Zero . JD losing 2 games isn't the big part why his team is losing it's because his teammates can't win an a regular basis . But he lost to hyuk and 815. Okay, hyuk is beasting it right now, but its still hyuk. Calm lost to Roro in the ACE match who after that was beaten by savior's ZvZ . Those this meen Calm is bad at ZvZ and should be lower on the rank ? i don't think so .... Calm only lost once and jaedong lost to hyuk and 815, and 815 hasn't done shit yet. On a good day i think even i can take a good # of games of JD if I 9 pool speed and he 12 hat on a 2 players map . It's a risky build like 14 cc , but a lot more common in ZvZ . In ZvZ there is always a build that counters the other to a certain degree , but 9 pool speed against 12 hat is considered a BO loss it's got nothing to do with how good your opponent is and how bad you are . I say you can't take any games from jaedong. People used to 9-pool him all the time when he went 12-hat and jaedong still won those games. But nowadays, jaedong lost his dominance in zvz and other zergs are on the rise. And calm lost to roro, so? Roro was pretty beast this month. Same goes for hyuk. So calm's loss to roro cancels out jaedong's lost to hyuk. But then jaedong lost to a 815. That is huge. I say this is complete bull that jaedong is in #2 because if stork had a 3-3 record in one month and khan is failing, hell he won't even make top ten.
And jaedong's new tlpd makes him look olllld.
On November 02 2009 07:09 Mykill wrote: wow terran are sucking. Flash/Fantasy the only terrans. none considered in CBNC
Protoss is failing too. Kal being in #10 spot is really debatable. I would rather put roro here who helped wemade win most of their games.
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Yeah, the Terran race is having some trouble right now, which is pretty rare. I'm sure it's also related to the Zerg dominance.
It's traditionally been a balance of Z > P > T > Z soft-counters, but right now it kind of looks more like
Z = T P > T Z > P
at the highest levels of the game. Terran have to deal with the new super-Zergs while also still being soft-countered by Protoss.
I say this because Flash and Fantasy have both looked a lot more vulnerable than usual against Protoss lately (and no other T is worth mentioning right now).
But hey, Flash says he's working on a revolutionary new TvP build/strategy. If he really does come out with something like that, there will be endless Protoss tears as both Zerg and Terran soft-counter them.
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
good job with the PR, last month had to be hard to rank with all the upsets & new rising players coming along.
quite ballsy to put JD @ #2, it will make you look good though when he destroys everyone once again this month!
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United States13143 Posts
On November 02 2009 06:26 Shauni wrote: I usually do not disagree with powerranks but this month was a bit strange. I'd replace Kal with Zero, it seems like you even forgot to put him in close but no cigar which was very strange. Zero has been pretty impressive last month. JD should switch with Stork. Ruby should switch with Luxury for close but no cigar. Speaking as a huge Stork fan, I have no idea how on earth he can be above Calm.
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On November 02 2009 07:41 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 06:26 Shauni wrote: I usually do not disagree with powerranks but this month was a bit strange. I'd replace Kal with Zero, it seems like you even forgot to put him in close but no cigar which was very strange. Zero has been pretty impressive last month. JD should switch with Stork. Ruby should switch with Luxury for close but no cigar. Speaking as a huge Stork fan, I have no idea how on earth he can be above Calm. As a huge stork fan myself, Stork hasn't done anything big that will put him over calm, so stork under calm is good for now only.
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On November 02 2009 07:29 Hinanawi wrote: Yeah, the Terran race is having some trouble right now, which is pretty rare. I'm sure it's also related to the Zerg dominance.
It's traditionally been a balance of Z > P > T > Z soft-counters, but right now it kind of looks more like
Z = T P > T Z > P
at the highest levels of the game. Terran have to deal with the new super-Zergs while also still being soft-countered by Protoss.
I say this because Flash and Fantasy have both looked a lot more vulnerable than usual against Protoss lately (and no other T is worth mentioning right now).
But hey, Flash says he's working on a revolutionary new TvP build/strategy. If he really does come out with something like that, there will be endless Protoss tears as both Zerg and Terran soft-counter them.
It's actually P=T based on recent games too.
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THE BIRD TOSS LEADS AUIR AGAIN!
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On November 02 2009 07:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 07:29 Hinanawi wrote: Yeah, the Terran race is having some trouble right now, which is pretty rare. I'm sure it's also related to the Zerg dominance.
It's traditionally been a balance of Z > P > T > Z soft-counters, but right now it kind of looks more like
Z = T P > T Z > P
at the highest levels of the game. Terran have to deal with the new super-Zergs while also still being soft-countered by Protoss.
I say this because Flash and Fantasy have both looked a lot more vulnerable than usual against Protoss lately (and no other T is worth mentioning right now).
But hey, Flash says he's working on a revolutionary new TvP build/strategy. If he really does come out with something like that, there will be endless Protoss tears as both Zerg and Terran soft-counter them. It's actually P=T based on recent games too.
On A-class level, yeah, but I was thinking more in terms of S-class level. Fantasy got used as a mop by Stork, Stats, and Shuttle recently, and Flash almost lost a game against a Protoss as low-level as DaezanG. I think Bisu and Stork are the favorites against any Terran player in a Bo5 right now easily.
If Flash or Fantasy can pull a convincing win against Stork or Bisu then I'll take that back, but right now I really can't see them having a decent chance in a series like that.
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On November 02 2009 08:18 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 07:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 02 2009 07:29 Hinanawi wrote: Yeah, the Terran race is having some trouble right now, which is pretty rare. I'm sure it's also related to the Zerg dominance.
It's traditionally been a balance of Z > P > T > Z soft-counters, but right now it kind of looks more like
Z = T P > T Z > P
at the highest levels of the game. Terran have to deal with the new super-Zergs while also still being soft-countered by Protoss.
I say this because Flash and Fantasy have both looked a lot more vulnerable than usual against Protoss lately (and no other T is worth mentioning right now).
But hey, Flash says he's working on a revolutionary new TvP build/strategy. If he really does come out with something like that, there will be endless Protoss tears as both Zerg and Terran soft-counter them. It's actually P=T based on recent games too. On A-class level, yeah, but I was thinking more in terms of S-class level. Fantasy got used as a mop by Stork, Stats, and Shuttle recently, and Flash almost lost a game against a Protoss as low-level as DaezanG. I think Bisu and Stork are the favorites against any Terran player in a Bo5 right now easily. If Flash or Fantasy can pull a convincing win against Stork or Bisu then I'll take that back, but right now I really can't see them having a decent chance in a series like that.
Flash hasnt lost a TvP against a non-dragon for ages. What are you talking about? o.O
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On November 02 2009 08:20 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 08:18 Hinanawi wrote:On November 02 2009 07:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 02 2009 07:29 Hinanawi wrote: Yeah, the Terran race is having some trouble right now, which is pretty rare. I'm sure it's also related to the Zerg dominance.
It's traditionally been a balance of Z > P > T > Z soft-counters, but right now it kind of looks more like
Z = T P > T Z > P
at the highest levels of the game. Terran have to deal with the new super-Zergs while also still being soft-countered by Protoss.
I say this because Flash and Fantasy have both looked a lot more vulnerable than usual against Protoss lately (and no other T is worth mentioning right now).
But hey, Flash says he's working on a revolutionary new TvP build/strategy. If he really does come out with something like that, there will be endless Protoss tears as both Zerg and Terran soft-counter them. It's actually P=T based on recent games too. On A-class level, yeah, but I was thinking more in terms of S-class level. Fantasy got used as a mop by Stork, Stats, and Shuttle recently, and Flash almost lost a game against a Protoss as low-level as DaezanG. I think Bisu and Stork are the favorites against any Terran player in a Bo5 right now easily. If Flash or Fantasy can pull a convincing win against Stork or Bisu then I'll take that back, but right now I really can't see them having a decent chance in a series like that. Flash hasnt lost a TvP against a non-dragon for ages. What are you talking about? o.O
True, but Flash has also barely played any TvP in ages. In the past two months he's played...two. He just looked weak against DaezanG, which worries me. I'd be happy to see him prove he's still the TvP master, don't get me wrong.
It just feels like, whereas Flash looks completely invincible against non-S class Zergs and Terrans, it feels like he could get sniped by non-S class Protosses.
We'll see later this month. Or maybe not, since everyone is probably going to be fighting Zerg players again since they make up more than half of the OSL and MSL. Honestly I'd prefer not to have any TvPs in the early stages of OSL/MSL, T and P need to work together to bring down Zergs.
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On November 02 2009 06:51 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 06:26 Shauni wrote: I usually do not disagree with powerranks but this month was a bit strange. I'd replace Kal with Zero, it seems like you even forgot to put him in close but no cigar which was very strange. Zero has been pretty impressive last month. JD should switch with Stork. Ruby should switch with Luxury for close but no cigar. Zero beat no one good except Light and Jaedong (where he lost to him where it mattered most, ace match)
Who did Kal beat? His list of wins this month is go.go, Crazy-Hydra, Reach, Baby, and Savior. Not the most impressive of opponents. And Zero is in both leagues, Kal isn't.
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On November 02 2009 08:42 Jaksiel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 06:51 SuperArc wrote:On November 02 2009 06:26 Shauni wrote: I usually do not disagree with powerranks but this month was a bit strange. I'd replace Kal with Zero, it seems like you even forgot to put him in close but no cigar which was very strange. Zero has been pretty impressive last month. JD should switch with Stork. Ruby should switch with Luxury for close but no cigar. Zero beat no one good except Light and Jaedong (where he lost to him where it mattered most, ace match) Who did Kal beat? His list of wins this month is go.go, Crazy-Hydra, Reach, Baby, and Savior. Not the most impressive of opponents. And Zero is in both leagues, Kal isn't.
That's why Movie deserves 10. :p
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On November 02 2009 08:46 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 08:42 Jaksiel wrote:On November 02 2009 06:51 SuperArc wrote:On November 02 2009 06:26 Shauni wrote: I usually do not disagree with powerranks but this month was a bit strange. I'd replace Kal with Zero, it seems like you even forgot to put him in close but no cigar which was very strange. Zero has been pretty impressive last month. JD should switch with Stork. Ruby should switch with Luxury for close but no cigar. Zero beat no one good except Light and Jaedong (where he lost to him where it mattered most, ace match) Who did Kal beat? His list of wins this month is go.go, Crazy-Hydra, Reach, Baby, and Savior. Not the most impressive of opponents. And Zero is in both leagues, Kal isn't. That's why Movie deserves 10. :p I still say roro, movie has the same pl record as fbh rofl.
On November 02 2009 08:18 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 07:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 02 2009 07:29 Hinanawi wrote: Yeah, the Terran race is having some trouble right now, which is pretty rare. I'm sure it's also related to the Zerg dominance.
It's traditionally been a balance of Z > P > T > Z soft-counters, but right now it kind of looks more like
Z = T P > T Z > P
at the highest levels of the game. Terran have to deal with the new super-Zergs while also still being soft-countered by Protoss.
I say this because Flash and Fantasy have both looked a lot more vulnerable than usual against Protoss lately (and no other T is worth mentioning right now).
But hey, Flash says he's working on a revolutionary new TvP build/strategy. If he really does come out with something like that, there will be endless Protoss tears as both Zerg and Terran soft-counter them. It's actually P=T based on recent games too. On A-class level, yeah, but I was thinking more in terms of S-class level. Fantasy got used as a mop by Stork, Stats, and Shuttle recently, and Flash almost lost a game against a Protoss as low-level as DaezanG. I think Bisu and Stork are the favorites against any Terran player in a Bo5 right now easily. If Flash or Fantasy can pull a convincing win against Stork or Bisu then I'll take that back, but right now I really can't see them having a decent chance in a series like that. Fuck flash, why don't you look at other pvt, its been pretty equal. I say p=t
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Kal has been looking pretty unstable lately and none of the wins I saw of his were impressive. Maybe I'm affected by the buttrape he got from Really. Roro? are you kidding? He's relatively promising but he lost a lot of games and in some of the games he was so far ahead and messed up everything. Pusan did well last month but messed up MST and I'm quite sure his little 'streak' won't last for long. Movie? Yeah maybe, he was looking pretty strong this month and qualified for both leagues didn't he? Luxury played a few good games in PL but showed a lot of weaknesses in the individual leagues, especially with his ZvP.
So yeah, to me it'd be most logical with Movie or Zero for 10th place. But I'm just nitpicking.
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no pusan no movie movie-hero-light group of the osl was the GROUP OF DEATH PEOPLE. and he owned it up!
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ever since flash's pic was changed to the new one with the new KT uniform, he's been owning it up.
And I think it was around the same time that Jaedon's pic was changed, and he started noobing it up.
hmm.. perhaps it is all TL's doing...
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I don't know if the power rankings are like the Kespa ratings but I really don't think past performance should go into how the players are doing right now. I want to know who is doing the best in THIS month, not who is the best of all time at the moment. (Maybe that's where I am wrong though).
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On November 02 2009 11:07 Endurethetoothache wrote: I don't know if the power rankings are like the Kespa ratings but I really don't think past performance should go into how the players are doing right now. I want to know who is doing the best in THIS month, not who is the best of all time at the moment. (Maybe that's where I am wrong though). You're entirely correct, thats why theres such a huge debate whether jaedong should be second or not, because his performance just doesn't deserve #2 spot.
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Yes, in fact, I do not recall the last time there was 142 replies in under a day, perhaps ZerO>JD, Effort first, or Flash no show.
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It's really amusing how many people get bent out of shape over what basically comes down to the author's interpretation of what the PR should be...
I personally think that a monthly Power Rank should be who the most "powerful" players are at the time of writing, and that is what was written this month (more or less), so naturally I didn't have any major complaints. That being said, regardless of the author's interpretation, as long as they were able to explain how they arrived at their decisions (as riptide did with this month's PR), I wouldn't really be able to complain about much.
For example, there is an old PR (I don't remember how long ago) where after glancing at the names on the list (as I always do prior to reading it) my jaw dropped. I then read through the PR and felt satisfied with their explanations. I completely disagreed with their interpretation of what the PR in itself should be, but I was able to understand why each player was ranked where they were based on their different interpretation of the PR, and so I was content for the most part. I think if more people took this approach the debates about rank would be much more interesting. Questioning the rank a certain player had based on the author's definition of what PR should be, rather than each individual poster's. At the moment, it's mostly apples and oranges.
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On November 02 2009 12:14 Slox wrote: It's really amusing how many people get bent out of shape over what basically comes down to the author's interpretation of what the PR should be...
I personally think that a monthly Power Rank should be who the most "powerful" players are at the time of writing, and that is what was written this month (more or less), so naturally I didn't have any major complaints. That being said, regardless of the author's interpretation, as long as they were able to explain how they arrived at their decisions (as riptide did with this month's PR), I wouldn't really be able to complain about much.
For example, there is an old PR (I don't remember how long ago) where after glancing at the names on the list (as I always do prior to reading it) my jaw dropped. I then read through the PR and felt satisfied with their explanations. I completely disagreed with their interpretation of what the PR in itself should be, but I was able to understand why each player was ranked where they were based on their different interpretation of the PR, and so I was content for the most part. I think if more people took this approach the debates about rank would be much more interesting. Questioning the rank a certain player had based on the author's definition of what PR should be, rather than each individual poster's. At the moment, it's mostly apples and oranges.
QFT. This man knows what he's talking about. (assuming ur male...)
Haven't seen as much sense as this post has shown for ages.
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United States13143 Posts
On November 02 2009 09:41 UGC4 wrote:no pusan no movie movie-hero-light group of the osl was the GROUP OF DEATH PEOPLE. and he owned it up! I'd argue that the real group of death was Mind-Hogil-Flash, considering that flash is flash, Mind has been doing well in PL again, and Hogil played well.
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flash at the top makes me so happy
good ranking.. i wouldve liked to see movie up there but its understandable.
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God dam Flash at number one makes me smile so big.
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United States32493 Posts
6~9 was pretty tough, I'd put fantasy lower just out of dislike . He just "feels" better to me at seven or eight I guess. A month of Flash playing godly bionic TvZ doesn't help Fantasy that much either!
10 was another tough spot. Any of the CBNC might deserve it, plus maybe even Hwasin and Type-B.
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On November 02 2009 12:14 Slox wrote: It's really amusing how many people get bent out of shape over what basically comes down to the author's interpretation of what the PR should be...
I personally think that a monthly Power Rank should be who the most "powerful" players are at the time of writing, and that is what was written this month (more or less), so naturally I didn't have any major complaints. That being said, regardless of the author's interpretation, as long as they were able to explain how they arrived at their decisions (as riptide did with this month's PR), I wouldn't really be able to complain about much.
For example, there is an old PR (I don't remember how long ago) where after glancing at the names on the list (as I always do prior to reading it) my jaw dropped. I then read through the PR and felt satisfied with their explanations. I completely disagreed with their interpretation of what the PR in itself should be, but I was able to understand why each player was ranked where they were based on their different interpretation of the PR, and so I was content for the most part. I think if more people took this approach the debates about rank would be much more interesting. Questioning the rank a certain player had based on the author's definition of what PR should be, rather than each individual poster's. At the moment, it's mostly apples and oranges.
Yeah... you sort of have a point.
But what if the author's point of view to begin with makes no sense? For instance, at the end of the last PR discussion, a proposed November PR was put forth which obviously was written with individual league performance as the primary criterion. I had a somewhat extended argument about the rationality of that PR with someone who said that criterion was nonsense, so the PR was automatically bad no matter how much sense it made by that standard.
That's the real problem here: if you think criteria are bogus, why even try to argue on those grounds?
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People tried to take that stance against JWD late in his PR-writing career. The problem is that the proscene goes through many stages as the individual leagues and PL progress. Thus, the criteria could be different each month.
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On November 02 2009 13:26 Avidkeystamper wrote: People tried to take that stance against JWD late in his PR-writing career. The problem is that the proscene goes through many stages as the individual leagues and PL progress. Thus, the criteria could be different each month.
Naw, people got on JWD's case because he did goofy stuff (not necessarily stupid, or even wrong, but goofy) like dropping Flash off the PR completely after a 6-2 month and putting ZerO over JD for reasons which were... not readily apparent. Or at least, that's how it looked to me.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Well, I think this is fairly appropriate given the current discussion! This is taken from when etter announced PR as a new feature on TL.
On November 22 2006 01:18 DJEtterStyle wrote: Hello.
As you may have noticed (but probably not), the gracious people at Team Liquid have made me a part of their extended family. If it helps, think of me as the drunken uncle that everyone hates but that they have no choice but to invite to family reunions.
Regardless of my status amongst my now-peers, I have been put in charge of the new Power Ranking feature, visible, if you have not yet noticed, in the upper-right portion of the website. Click on the link to see the detailed list.
Every month, I will create a list—my list—of the top ten Brood War players in the world. No foreigner, just in case you felt the urge to ask, will ever grace that list. No, not even if he managed to beat Midas in a Bo1 during WCG.
To clarify: this is not a rehash of the KeSPA rankings. This is not a lifetime achievement award. This list consists entirely of my picks of who is hot right now. Any player who loses a big game to an amateur opponent or attempts some particularly retarded cheese can look forward to dropping off the list as quickly as he arrived. I consider much more than statistics when formulating this list, and although the placement might seem, on occasion, biased or even completely random, I assure you that I have my own, incredibly valid reasons for the decisions I make. You are, of course, welcome to try and change my mind, but before you try and do that, let me provide you with a crucial piece of information: I am smarter than you—much.
In subsequent months, I will post a brief essay announcing the presence of the new list and defending some of my potentially controversial choices, but as this post is already much longer than I would like, I will spare all of you any further reading.
So enjoy the list, and feel free to place your inane comments in the provided, well, comments area. I assure you that I will consider each one briefly before dismissing it on any number of purely objective grounds.
Added:
I can't believe I forgot to mention this before, but please be sure to thank Saro for adding this new feature. Without him, the website would be, from a technical standpoint, stagnant. His work makes possible all of these fun little things we have, and he, I believe, goes underappreciated far too often.
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Flash no.1 awsome, did that give you pain to do this riptide?
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it makes no sense fantasy is higher than effort on the ranks while both of them only have one loss in pl fantasy got knocked out of osl
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Fantasy's out of MSL, not OSL.
I'm really looking forward to seeing Fantasy play against the Zergs on steroids this season. His bio play is average, it's his mech that he's always relied on to rake in the wins, I wonder if he can still make it work?
I'm sure he can, all he has to do is pump VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES VULTURES
I know it takes skill and not everyone can do it, but I still want to pull my hair out when Fantasy is doing terrible and getting owned, and then all of a sudden his opponent lets Fantasy run five vultures into their probe/drone line and the entire game turns around. It's Fantasy, you KNOW he's going to pump vultures, so put some defenses up at your mineral lines, holy shit.
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Finally, Flash back where he belongs And besides JD at #2, i'd have to agree with the rest of the PR ! thanks!
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Great job riptide! Want to thank and appreciate you for all your hard work, dedication, and effort!
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On November 02 2009 05:12 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 04:29 darktreb wrote: I would put Calm above JD too but I'm actually ok with JD being 2nd (though it is funny that Flash once dropped off the rank for having a rough month).
Reason being - JD is kind of just hanging out right now, first month of PL, no leagues to qualify for. He just won his THIRD OSL and the new leagues haven't started since then. He's the favorite in any BO5 at the moment and the best player in the world. In other words - he's achieved near "Savior right after OSL" status as a guy who has earned a higher level of respect in the PR than everyone else has. Nobody else is allowed to have a month off, but JD is. Unfair? Win a Golden Mouse and back to back OSLs and still be the best player in the world afterward and you can get away with it too. This guy gets it! (Plus JD's ZvP/ZvT just look a bit stronger than Calms at the moment, particularly ZvP)
Haha thanks, means a lot coming from you Plexa =)
Truth be told, I'm a huge Flash fan and even I'm barely ok with him being #1. In my book (and of course PR is subjective in many ways so it's just opinion), it took the following to take a guy who just won his third OSL, was MSL semifinalist, and is the best player in the world down from #1
A player (Flash) who: - Went undefeated in the entire month (and qualified for both leagues in the process) - Didn't just win but crushed all his opponents and was arguably never losing at any point in any game (this is a slight stretch but given his superior late game, you can argue that as long as the game is 40/60 or better on paper beyond a certain point, he's ahead) - Played at a level clearly unmatched by any other player of his race (and of any race, at least for this one month) - Is one of two, maybe three, players in the world considered to be in the same skill class as JD (this one is also important)
Anything less and JD should stay #1 until he drops out of a league or gets straight up murdered repeatedly in PL. Guy is a living legend at the moment - he has earned Starleague to Starleague benefit of the doubt which no one else has or deserves.
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
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I agree with everyones rank except for Fantasy being above EffOrt.
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On November 02 2009 13:40 Plexa wrote:Well, I think this is fairly appropriate given the current discussion! This is taken from when etter announced PR as a new feature on TL. Show nested quote +On November 22 2006 01:18 DJEtterStyle wrote: Hello.
As you may have noticed (but probably not), the gracious people at Team Liquid have made me a part of their extended family. If it helps, think of me as the drunken uncle that everyone hates but that they have no choice but to invite to family reunions.
Regardless of my status amongst my now-peers, I have been put in charge of the new Power Ranking feature, visible, if you have not yet noticed, in the upper-right portion of the website. Click on the link to see the detailed list.
Every month, I will create a list—<i>my</i> list—of the top ten Brood War players in the world. No foreigner, just in case you felt the urge to ask, will ever grace that list. No, not even if he managed to beat Midas in a Bo1 during WCG.
To clarify: this is not a rehash of the KeSPA rankings. This is not a lifetime achievement award. This list consists entirely of my picks of who is hot <i>right now</i>. Any player who loses a big game to an amateur opponent or attempts some particularly retarded cheese can look forward to dropping off the list as quickly as he arrived. I consider much more than statistics when formulating this list, and although the placement might seem, on <i>occasion</i>, biased or even completely random, I assure you that I have my own, incredibly valid reasons for the decisions I make. You are, of course, welcome to try and change my mind, but before you try and do that, let me provide you with a crucial piece of information: I am smarter than you—much.
In subsequent months, I will post a <i>brief</i> essay announcing the presence of the new list and defending some of my potentially controversial choices, but as this post is already much longer than I would like, I will spare all of you any further reading.
So enjoy the list, and feel free to place your inane comments in the provided, well, <i>comments area</i>. I assure you that I will consider each one briefly before dismissing it on any number of <i>purely objective</i> grounds.
Added:
I can't believe I forgot to mention this before, but please be sure to thank Saro for adding this new feature. Without him, the website would be, from a technical standpoint, stagnant. His work makes possible all of these fun little things we have, and he, I believe, goes underappreciated far too often.
While we're quoting the originator of the power rank, I think I would be remiss in not mentioning this as my primary justification for feeling completely free to argue with any PR as much as I want. :D
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I think Pusan deserved to be in the PR more than Shine he was so amazing recently, he even defeated Best who is the best PvP player except Stork and Bisu. I also feel that Calm is a lot more consistent that JD these days. Otherwise, I totally agree
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The reality of it is that not enough has really happened to prove that the top-9 ranks should shift much beyond what they are now. The only real point of contention could be for 10th place. I'd like to see Zero there, but then you have a significantly zerg-heavy poll.
Also, and this is the main reason, the Power Rank is meant for entertainment -- that is its primary purpose. Tell me, are you not entertained? Controversy in matters like this make for the very best entertainment. And you cannot really prove the author "wrong", so as long as there are decent reasons for every choice and the outcome means more entertainment for all of us readers, I'd say this is the best Power Rank we've had in the last four or five months.
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Right but if we rationalize the error as a means to cause controversy, then it's now completely justified and not worth arguing like petulant children about, thus taking all of the fun out of it.
And that would be horrible. =(
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This is true :-)
Argue away!
Also, why isn't Hwasin in the mentionables? I found all his games so far this season to be pretty damn good. I wouldn't put him in the top-10, but I'd at least mention him.
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HYUK HYUK HYUK I'm so fucking happy.
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On November 02 2009 23:57 endy wrote:I think Pusan deserved to be in the PR more than Shine he was so amazing recently, he even defeated Best who is the best PvP player except Stork and Bisu. I also feel that Calm is a lot more consistent that JD these days. Otherwise, I totally agree Agreed, other then Best's pvp isn't godmode anymore. (I'd rate Backho, Kal, Stats, Violet and Pusan over him ATLEAST)
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Go Stork! I have a feeling Bisu will do worse though.
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On November 02 2009 11:07 Endurethetoothache wrote: I don't know if the power rankings are like the Kespa ratings but I really don't think past performance should go into how the players are doing right now. I want to know who is doing the best in THIS month, not who is the best of all time at the moment. (Maybe that's where I am wrong though).
I don't know if the power rankings are like the NFL standings, but I really don't think past performance should go into how the teams are doing right now. I want to know who is doing the best in THIS week, not who is the best of all time at the moment. (Maybe that's where I am wrong though).
week 6, 2008: Browns thumped the Giants so they obviously had one of the best weeks in the NFL and should have been top 5 in ESPN's power rankings... right?
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This is a monthly ranking, but not a ranking of months.
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On November 02 2009 01:25 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 01:21 Ota Solgryn wrote: Yeah. About JD, I dont think I would have put him that high. On the other hand he has never played his best at the start of seasons. Guess this month really shows how good you are riptide. If Jd wins much your a genious, if not, your a fool. High risk, high gain. Uh the PR isn't a prediction it's an assessment of the current situation. There is no risk or gain because he is just a guy making a ranking of who HE THINKS are the top 10 players on the scene.
Yes, and he THINKS that JD is number two right now, but if JD goes and throws every game away JD sure cannot have been number two in the world. So if JD wins everthing he was right about JD still being number 2 despite some lackluster performances in Oktober.
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wow, thanks for an on-time power ranking! surprised to see jaedong up so high, but i don't mind :D
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After reading the PR and all the posts, I can say for sure that this is one of the most disputed PRs since now. And probably there is something wrong with this PR if so many people can't agree with it.
First of all, I think that the PR was meant to be a list of the best performing players over the last month, not over the last 2 or 3 months and not in the next 2 or 3 months. So, if I am right, it means that JD being placed at second place is completely wrong (I will not argue with the other positions, since this one is the most out of place according to the below criteria).
Regardless of which approach you will chose: results , number of matches, game consistency, quality of the played games, you can't get JD on 2nd place for the month of October.
Maybe he will be on 2nd place or even on the 1st place in November, but October was a bad month for JD when you compare his achievements to other players that are ranked bellow him.
I can accept that this was a mistake that the author made for and unknown reason, but with PRs like this particular one, the value and relevance of the PR will decrease.
There was a time when we used to report the value and "power" of a player to the PR instead of the KESPA ranking, I think that this will not be valid anymore with PRs like this.
So, please take in consideration the facts when writing the future PRs and not some speculations or the glorious past of some of the players.
Anyway, I would like to thank you for the effort of maintaining the PR (even if sometimes creates such a big debate).
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I find it curious that no one disputes Fantasy over Effort.
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I'm not sure how everytime there's a even slightly disagreeable rank, everyone starts yelling "It's supposed to be entirely dedicated to one month! Nothing in the past or proper prediction should matter!" When that's not true, and no PR has ever, ever done that. There is leeway and interpretation, and the only real recourse you can have is with the author's criteria not being clear. So far I haven't had a huge issue with Riptide's criteria being self-contradictory, even if I do disagree with JD at #2.
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I'd personally switch Calm and JD for Oct. PR because Calm won a whole lot of games for his team while JD dropped a few key ones. >_< HOW CAN YOU LOSE ZVZ TO 815 (idc if it's a BO loss or whatever, a loss is a loss)
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I don't think the criteria need or should be consistent between months. Schedules and workloads are different every month. History is sometimes relevant, sometimes not. There are more qualities to players' performances than "good" or "bad".
Writing the Power Rank is as much about choosing which factors to weigh as it is about actually weighing them. It's about deciding what's important this month, taking into account not only results but also current trends and hot issues, which can be very different from month to month. The Power Rank would be much less interesting if it followed a fixed formula.
It's supposed to be a bit enigmatic, and it's more important that it provides insight and generates discussion (possibly by being provocative) than that it represents the absolute truth (for which one can always look to statistics).
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On November 03 2009 10:11 OpticalShot wrote: I'd personally switch Calm and JD for Oct. PR because Calm won a whole lot of games for his team while JD dropped a few key ones. >_< HOW CAN YOU LOSE ZVZ TO 815 (idc if it's a BO loss or whatever, a loss is a loss)
You know, I don't get this. 815 has ALWAYS been really good at ZvZ. He was 1-1 with Jaedong going into that match and has over a 60% ZvZ record. I know Jaedong is really good, but I'd postulate that 815's ZvZ is as good, or atleast more consistent than Hyuk's and Zero's.
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Really good Power Rank, I absolutely agree with it
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Flash playing like Boxer there!!! WOW
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I can pretty much agree with this ranking. Flash being Number 1 (undisputed even) is the best part of it.
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United States32493 Posts
the main problem with giving a player credit for their past performances is that skill decay over time cannot be predicted and measured by any reliable standard -- so people determine it almost entirely subjectively
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When I think about JD's October performance my mind goes to how effortlessly he destroyed Kal in his only non-ZvZ matchup so far. As for his other matches, I believe any other Zerg would've also had a good chance of losing the ZvZs JD lost due to the nature of the matchup. Just because JD had a few uncharacteristic losses in the most unforgiving matchup in the game doesn't mean that Calm has suddenly become scarier than him. Calm lost to RoRo in an ace too, you know.
I don't think there would even be an issue here if Oz let JD play their Ace matches for them. Goddamn Killer.
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On November 03 2009 12:26 Waxangel wrote: the main problem with giving a player credit for their past performances is that skill decay over time cannot be predicted and measured by any reliable standard -- so people determine it almost entirely subjectively This is why jaedong in second place is just unreasonable.
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The choice of the word decay is interesting. Also @ MuffinDude, if you agree with Waxangel, you're agreeing that there's nothing inherently wrong with Jaedong at second.
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Jaedong's play over the past 3 months (aggregate) has been worse than Calm's. Calm dominated his MSL at least as well as JD dominated the OSL (beating JD in the process) and both were monsters in PL at the end of the season (with a few disappointing Playoff performances). Now coming out the gate this season Calm is clearly playing better than JD. And while it matters little, Calm played better last month in random games and exhibitions than JD.
Altogether, that's an entire quarter where Calm has been at least as good as JD at all times, and often (especially recently), better. When you look at it this way, it's pretty clear how the rankings should unfold. There is very little reason to rank JD above Calm at this moment, even if Calm has had a few shaky wins - JD has had shaky losses, after all. I think ranking JD below #3 would be a farce, but ranking him above that when he has not really shown any dominance whatsoever this season is somewhat dishonest.
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If this is Power Rank based on MONTHLY performance, then I'dont get Jaedong sitting over Calm, and Hyuk placed below both Effort and Fantasy. BO loss DOES matter, especially in JD's case, when he was schooled by Hyuk himself in PL Finals why not to go 12 Hatch against average Zergs. And Hyuk won straight-up with both Jaedong and Effort, while Fantasy really did nothing special (he even lost to UpMagic, AFAIK).
For me: 1. Flash 2. Calm 3. Stork 4. Jaedong 5. Bisu 6. Hyuk 7. Shine 8. fantasy 9. EffOrt 10. Pusan
EDIT: And Luxury deserves nothing but NCNC, his games in OSL & MSL were horrible.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On November 03 2009 16:46 kvilx wrote: If this is Power Rank based on MONTHLY performance, then I'dont get Jaedong sitting over Calm, and Hyuk placed below both Effort and Fantasy. BO losses DOES matter, especially in JD's case, when he was schooled by Hyuk himself in PL Finals why not to go 12 Hatch against average Zergs. And Hyuk won straight-up with both Jaedong and Effort, while Fantasy really did nothing special (he even lost to UpMagic, AFAIK).
The PR writer changed again recently and it's top 10 best players right now with big emphasis on starleagues, not top 10 players who were doing well last month. Elo is already a decent rank based on recent performances, although you can't see how many places players rose/fell during a monthly period. JWD was doing well with his thing, especially with all the details and youtube links, but it is a bit different now.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
LOL this is the nicest PR Discussion I have ever been to hahahah
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United States32493 Posts
On November 03 2009 16:09 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2009 12:26 Waxangel wrote: the main problem with giving a player credit for their past performances is that skill decay over time cannot be predicted and measured by any reliable standard -- so people determine it almost entirely subjectively This is why jaedong in second place is just unreasonable.
I'm not saying it's right, but I'm not saying it's wrong either.
I guess I'm just saying it's hard to decide
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Nice PR but I'm surprised not to see Ruby in CBNC at least.
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On November 03 2009 13:57 cokencheese wrote: When I think about JD's October performance my mind goes to how effortlessly he destroyed Kal in his only non-ZvZ matchup so far. As for his other matches, I believe any other Zerg would've also had a good chance of losing the ZvZs JD lost due to the nature of the matchup. Just because JD had a few uncharacteristic losses in the most unforgiving matchup in the game doesn't mean that Calm has suddenly become scarier than him. Calm lost to RoRo in an ace too, you know.
I don't think there would even be an issue here if Oz let JD play their Ace matches for them. Goddamn Killer. You are forgeting that Jaedong was a god ZvZ to the point people joked about JvZ. Last month he was shown to be very much mortal. Where before he had won 12 hatch vs 9 pool, he lost vs 815.
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On November 03 2009 09:08 dannyd102 wrote: After reading the PR and all the posts, I can say for sure that this is one of the most disputed PRs since now. And probably there is something wrong with this PR if so many people can't agree with it.
First of all, I think that the PR was meant to be a list of the best performing players over the last month, not over the last 2 or 3 months and not in the next 2 or 3 months. So, if I am right, it means that JD being placed at second place is completely wrong (I will not argue with the other positions, since this one is the most out of place according to the below criteria).
Regardless of which approach you will chose: results , number of matches, game consistency, quality of the played games, you can't get JD on 2nd place for the month of October.
Maybe he will be on 2nd place or even on the 1st place in November, but October was a bad month for JD when you compare his achievements to other players that are ranked bellow him.
I can accept that this was a mistake that the author made for and unknown reason, but with PRs like this particular one, the value and relevance of the PR will decrease.
There was a time when we used to report the value and "power" of a player to the PR instead of the KESPA ranking, I think that this will not be valid anymore with PRs like this.
So, please take in consideration the facts when writing the future PRs and not some speculations or the glorious past of some of the players.
Anyway, I would like to thank you for the effort of maintaining the PR (even if sometimes creates such a big debate).
PR is not 100% about monthly performance. It is a combination of that plus the overall skill of the players. Recent performance of a few games =/= Overall skill. Lets say Flash lost 2 games to cheese this week. Would you consider his skill any less than what you consider now? Nope
HOW a person loses and what opponents he faces, combined with MU, event, all factor in. For JD's case, it was ZvZ (luck based MU) with couple of BO losses. I see JD in Top 3 perfectly reasonable. Personally I would have ranked Calm #2 Jaedong #3 but its not that much different.
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Well, Jaedong did lose to hyuk while doing the same build order. Even if the matchup has a lot to do with luck, it was a skill game that he lost.
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On November 04 2009 03:02 ghostWriter wrote: Well, Jaedong did lose to hyuk while doing the same build order. Even if the matchup has a lot to do with luck, it was a skill game that he lost.
hyuk needs to improve his zvt quite a bit before he should be above top 5
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On November 04 2009 03:40 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 03:02 ghostWriter wrote: Well, Jaedong did lose to hyuk while doing the same build order. Even if the matchup has a lot to do with luck, it was a skill game that he lost. hyuk needs to improve his zvt quite a bit before he should be above top 5
His ZvT.....is SKT Zerg Style. =O
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On November 04 2009 05:20 ReketSomething wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 03:40 StorrZerg wrote:On November 04 2009 03:02 ghostWriter wrote: Well, Jaedong did lose to hyuk while doing the same build order. Even if the matchup has a lot to do with luck, it was a skill game that he lost. hyuk needs to improve his zvt quite a bit before he should be above top 5 His ZvT.....is SKT Zerg Style. =O he's gonna rape Flash in the SKT vs KT game just watch
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On November 04 2009 05:34 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 05:20 ReketSomething wrote:On November 04 2009 03:40 StorrZerg wrote:On November 04 2009 03:02 ghostWriter wrote: Well, Jaedong did lose to hyuk while doing the same build order. Even if the matchup has a lot to do with luck, it was a skill game that he lost. hyuk needs to improve his zvt quite a bit before he should be above top 5 His ZvT.....is SKT Zerg Style. =O he's gonna rape Flash in the SKT vs KT game just watch Strongest TvZ in the world... vs someone above average... Wow, blind fanboyism much? Flash has allways been consistently good since his peak with only dropping. Hyuk only showed average - and i say average - zvp and very good zvz (I'll give you that). But he ain't gonna beat Leta / Flash / Fantasy at his present condition unless shown better.
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United States11390 Posts
He'd probably lose to even Sair in ZvT.
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Did you guys watch Sea and Hwasin absolutely demolish HyuK? I wouldn't bet a cent on HyuK in any S-class ZvT right now. His ZvZ is very very strong, and he's looking pretty good in his ZvP (even if it does involve some cheese). That being said, he'll get bumped out of the OSL and MSL here very soon once he hits some high-end Terran players.
I'm a HyuK fan and I've love to see him Royal-Road the OSL, but I'm also a practical person and I don't see his ZvT going god-mode over night. That just isn't realistic.
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I'm surprised not to see RuBy on the CBNC.
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Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT.
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On November 04 2009 07:03 Orbifold wrote: Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT. Cause if you watch his game v sea, it was bad.
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On November 04 2009 07:03 Orbifold wrote: Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT.
Every Zerg's ZvT is worse than his ZvP and ZvZ while every Terran's TvZ is better than his TvP or TvT. Do you know why?
+ Show Spoiler +
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On November 04 2009 09:11 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 07:03 Orbifold wrote: Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT. Every Zerg's ZvT is worse than his ZvP and ZvZ while every Terran's TvZ is better than his TvP or TvT. Do you know why? + Show Spoiler + YELLOW AND LUXURY
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
And you Terran haters are annoying, you play protoss for god sakes stop whining
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On November 02 2009 00:12 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2009 23:35 SkytoM wrote: Jaedong should be out of PR. I thought PR measures only 1 month. And this month every CBNC was better than Jaedong. PR is supposed to be a ranking of the 10 best players in Korea. Riptide looks at the games played over the month and evaluates them - results don't matter so much - more of how the games played out. For instance, a 2gate proxy loss doesn't change much but losing a standard game in humiliating fashion does. Still count as a loss - just one is more indicative of skill than anything else. Results are a good starting point, but can only give a piece of the picture - if you wanted a ranking based on results look at the elo rank or the kespa rank - PR isn't a rehash of either.
I remember someone arguing this to FakeSteve, and he said exactly the opposite was true. The PR should reflect the current performance of certain players rather than their display of skill level; otherwise, Flash wouldn't have dropped off of the PR a few months ago.
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On November 04 2009 07:03 Orbifold wrote: Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT.
Because if his game vs Sea is any indication his ZvT has not gotten any better at all.
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On November 04 2009 09:11 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 07:03 Orbifold wrote: Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT. Every Zerg's ZvT is worse than his ZvP and ZvZ while every Terran's TvZ is better than his TvP or TvT. Do you know why? + Show Spoiler +
Until recently, Flash's TvZ was by far his weakest matchup. He had something like 68% in TvT, 68% in TvP, and only 62% in TvZ.
Anyway, if TvZ was really that imba, Terrans would be flourishing in this Zerg era, not be getting picked off left and right.
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Yeah, T is doing even worse than P in individual leagues so far. =(
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On November 04 2009 11:08 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 09:11 AzureEye wrote:On November 04 2009 07:03 Orbifold wrote: Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT. Every Zerg's ZvT is worse than his ZvP and ZvZ while every Terran's TvZ is better than his TvP or TvT. Do you know why? + Show Spoiler + Until recently, Flash's TvZ was by far his weakest matchup. He had something like 68% in TvT, 68% in TvP, and only 62% in TvZ. Anyway, if TvZ was really that imba, Terrans would be flourishing in this Zerg era, not be getting picked off left and right. That is the reason i really admire Flash. Lately though he's been raping zergs in a brutal way and there was seemingly nothing zergs could do, duh.
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Assuming Hyuk can overcome Pure, he will duke it out with Leta, the 3rd best Terran during the upcoming OSL group.
Let's see where his ZvT skill lies.
On a side note, it would hilarious if Hyuk is the only SKT T1 member to qualify for both OSL and MSL this season. Bisu and Fantasy, I am looking at you.
Bisu has to go through the preliminaries if he wants to qualify for OSL again.
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On November 04 2009 09:23 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 09:11 AzureEye wrote:On November 04 2009 07:03 Orbifold wrote: Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT. Every Zerg's ZvT is worse than his ZvP and ZvZ while every Terran's TvZ is better than his TvP or TvT. Do you know why? + Show Spoiler + YELLOW AND LUXURY
I can name 4 Terrans with TvZ best MU for every Z player you name that has ZvT as best MU
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On November 04 2009 13:41 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 09:23 MrHoon wrote:On November 04 2009 09:11 AzureEye wrote:On November 04 2009 07:03 Orbifold wrote: Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT. Every Zerg's ZvT is worse than his ZvP and ZvZ while every Terran's TvZ is better than his TvP or TvT. Do you know why? + Show Spoiler + YELLOW AND LUXURY I can name 4 Terrans with TvZ best MU for every Z player you name that has ZvT as best MU
Try that with PvZ/ZvP and TvP/PvT. Complaining about TvZ imbalance right now is ridiculous, most zergs obviously aren't having trouble with it.
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I can count...han, Movie. Yep. and maybe...? BeSt (lol, jk)
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On November 03 2009 13:57 cokencheese wrote: When I think about JD's October performance my mind goes to how effortlessly he destroyed Kal in his only non-ZvZ matchup so far. As for his other matches, I believe any other Zerg would've also had a good chance of losing the ZvZs JD lost due to the nature of the matchup. Just because JD had a few uncharacteristic losses in the most unforgiving matchup in the game doesn't mean that Calm has suddenly become scarier than him. Calm lost to RoRo in an ace too, you know.
I don't think there would even be an issue here if Oz let JD play their Ace matches for them. Goddamn Killer.
Exactly. He looked downright scary against Kal, who has been one of the only Protoss playing solid PvZ lately. That game was utter domination, and here's hoping we see some Jaedong ZvTs and ZvPs in the coming weeks.
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Props to riptide for not giving the SKT zerg a higher position!
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On November 04 2009 07:03 Orbifold wrote: Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT.
Hyuk in October: 6-2 Against Zerg: 4-0 Against Protoss: 2-0 Against Terran: 0-2
That might be why.
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On November 04 2009 12:07 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 11:08 Hinanawi wrote:On November 04 2009 09:11 AzureEye wrote:On November 04 2009 07:03 Orbifold wrote: Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT. Every Zerg's ZvT is worse than his ZvP and ZvZ while every Terran's TvZ is better than his TvP or TvT. Do you know why? + Show Spoiler + Until recently, Flash's TvZ was by far his weakest matchup. He had something like 68% in TvT, 68% in TvP, and only 62% in TvZ. Anyway, if TvZ was really that imba, Terrans would be flourishing in this Zerg era, not be getting picked off left and right. That is the reason i really admire Flash. Lately though he's been raping zergs in a brutal way and there was seemingly nothing zergs could do, duh.
Let me take you back to a wonderful time called "early 2008." Protoss were winning every which way. PvPs galore. Flash was a mysterious wonderkid who skyrocketed onto the scene like some sort of celestial ejaculate, tearing apart everyone and having an abusrd winrate. Now, Flash has always had an absurd winrate, but he's always had one match people said was his 'weakest,' if only because he wasn't so dominate in it.
Before GSI and Bacchus, that was vP. Now, his vP was still amazing, but most of his losses came from the likes of Stork and the occasional other protoss. Then, out of nowhere, Flash came up with a series of crazy builds and completely dismantled the PvT metagame, right in the height of protoss supremacy.
It may be a little early to call, but I think Flash is doing EXACTLY what he did last time, only this time in vZ. He dropped out of leagues to zergs last season, had his winrate vZ demolished, and it's the best time in history to be a zerg, considering maps and overall skill level. It seems kind of weird, but Flash seems to thrive when other races are in their golden age.
YES I KNOW I TALK ABOUT FLASH TOO MUCH BUT GOD IT'S GOOD TO SEE HIM OWNING SHIT.
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On November 04 2009 14:23 Avidkeystamper wrote: I can count...han, Movie. Yep. and maybe...? BeSt (lol, jk)
Free as well.
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+ Show Spoiler +Let me take you back to a wonderful time called "early 2008." Protoss were winning every which way. PvPs galore. Flash was a mysterious wonderkid who skyrocketed onto the scene like some sort of celestial ejaculate, tearing apart everyone and having an abusrd winrate. Now, Flash has always had an absurd winrate, but he's always had one match people said was his 'weakest,' if only because he wasn't so dominate in it.
Before GSI and Bacchus, that was vP. Now, his vP was still amazing, but most of his losses came from the likes of Stork and the occasional other protoss. Then, out of nowhere, Flash came up with a series of crazy builds and completely dismantled the PvT metagame, right in the height of protoss supremacy.
It may be a little early to call, but I think Flash is doing EXACTLY what he did last time, only this time in vZ. He dropped out of leagues to zergs last season, had his winrate vZ demolished, and it's the best time in history to be a zerg, considering maps and overall skill level. It seems kind of weird, but Flash seems to thrive when other races are in their golden age.
YES I KNOW I TALK ABOUT FLASH TOO MUCH BUT GOD IT'S GOOD TO SEE HIM OWNING SHIT
Nice post!
It's amazing how everyone calls Flash boring, when he does such amazing things you don't see behind the scenes. Yet, because he didn't invent a build that uses mass Ghosts, he is boring and unrevolutionary.
Aside from that, the one thing I really love about Flash is the breathtaking defense and resiliency he has. It's always so suspenseful to me, but I know other people find this boring. Like vs Jangbi on Blue Storm and the mass recalls back when Jangbi didn't suck a nut and was probably the 1 or 2 best vT in the world. Just epic. Just watching how Flash places turrets is fucking entertaining.
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HerO's name came up twice in the PR; with FlaSh and Movie. HerO seems to not be doing so well, right now. Kal is so inconsistent, can't expect him to do anything much anymore. Shine[kal] is being way too overhyped. Sure, he beat Bisu and had a good game against Violet, but Bisu never really got very far in OSL's and usually, just went far in the MSL's. And Violet isn't exactly the greatest player in the world; if Violet was considered a A class pro, then Shine would be on that level. In my opinion, I think Sea should have gotten a spot in 6-10, rather than Shine in the 8th spot.
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I don't think someone who dropped both leagues in prelims should get on the rank unless there's some massive gap in people deserving. He performed admirably in PL, but it's the same deal as Jaedong retaining a highplace despite a mediocre month -- He has a history of snapping back and being amazing, whereas Sea has a history of doing well in PL and only PL everytime, and even then it's not like he's the best player in PL -- not by a longshot.
Shine qualified into both leagues with gusto, playing top tier opponents from start to finish. He's done his share of proleague on top of that. He's really emerged to fill a high A rank zerg spot -- one of the many that were around the past couple of seasons before Kwanro, Yarnc and Luxury began to slump.
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On November 05 2009 11:20 SynC[gm] wrote: HerO's name came up twice in the PR; with FlaSh and Movie. HerO seems to not be doing so well, right now. Kal is so inconsistent, can't expect him to do anything much anymore. Shine[kal] is being way too overhyped. Sure, he beat Bisu and had a good game against Violet, but Bisu never really got very far in OSL's and usually, just went far in the MSL's. And Violet isn't exactly the greatest player in the world; if Violet was considered a A class pro, then Shine would be on that level. In my opinion, I think Sea should have gotten a spot in 6-10, rather than Shine in the 8th spot.
You make it sound like the OSL has some magical aura that prevents only Bisu from winning.
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Yo, instead of name dropping, let's watch the games. Shine is playing better than Sea. Overall.
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On November 06 2009 02:42 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2009 11:20 SynC[gm] wrote: HerO's name came up twice in the PR; with FlaSh and Movie. HerO seems to not be doing so well, right now. Kal is so inconsistent, can't expect him to do anything much anymore. Shine[kal] is being way too overhyped. Sure, he beat Bisu and had a good game against Violet, but Bisu never really got very far in OSL's and usually, just went far in the MSL's. And Violet isn't exactly the greatest player in the world; if Violet was considered a A class pro, then Shine would be on that level. In my opinion, I think Sea should have gotten a spot in 6-10, rather than Shine in the 8th spot. You make it sound like the OSL has some magical aura that prevents only Bisu from winning. It prevented Savior from even qualifying for it for the longest time also despite him being soooo far ahead of everyone else in his time. Seriously that tournament got some bad voodoo to it. (Winners curse etc)
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Obviously not, what with Jaedong, July and Nada.
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Man, Ruby is on fire lately. I really hope he can keep it up so we get to see an ACE player on PR. That would be so sweet.
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On November 06 2009 19:30 Holgerius wrote: Man, Ruby is on fire lately. I really hope he can keep it up so we get to see an ACE player on PR. That would be so sweet. this. if go.go wasnt such a baller Ruby would also be in the OSL
think about it... took down Skyhigh, Pure, RoRO, Yarnc, Hwasin and Hiya ... at LEAST CNBC no?
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On November 04 2009 11:08 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 09:11 AzureEye wrote:On November 04 2009 07:03 Orbifold wrote: Why does everyone assume that Hyuk's ZvT still sucks?
He has not played much lately, and it seems more that his ZvZ and ZvP would drastically totally separately from he ZvT. Every Zerg's ZvT is worse than his ZvP and ZvZ while every Terran's TvZ is better than his TvP or TvT. Do you know why? + Show Spoiler + Until recently, Flash's TvZ was by far his weakest matchup. He had something like 68% in TvT, 68% in TvP, a nd only 62% in TvZ.Anyway, if TvZ was really that imba, Terrans would be flourishing in this Zerg era, not be getting picked off left and right.
I like this sentence
ONLY 62%... as if 62% is a low win rate or something. Yes vZ was probably Flash's weakest matchup until recently because I mean god... it was actually human and merely "normal" S-class.
Flash always performs his best when the odds are totally stacked against him. See his Medusa/Katrina vP records for proof.
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I always like to see a KT Player on the top...
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Jaedong... + Show Spoiler +Many of you are too swift in judging the best players. If this was resultbased only he would drop more spots, but if the PR is about who is the best player right now Jaedong should still be up there. He had a few losses, but now he's back again like he always is. 2 consecutive OSL wins, amazing pro-league record, bonjwastatus on the kespa ranking and he drops 2 games in the pro-league to zergs and suddenly you want to put him low on the PR. riptide knows what he's doing.
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3 games to zergs, to be fair.
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On November 07 2009 17:41 StylishVODs wrote:Jaedong... + Show Spoiler +Many of you are too swift in judging the best players. If this was resultbased only he would drop more spots, but if the PR is about who is the best player right now Jaedong should still be up there. He had a few losses, but now he's back again like he always is. 2 consecutive OSL wins, amazing pro-league record, bonjwastatus on the kespa ranking and he drops 2 games in the pro-league to zergs and suddenly you want to put him low on the PR. riptide knows what he's doing. Then why when flash droped like 4 games was he pushed OUT of the power rank, if it happened to flash it should happen to jaedong
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Because JWD is weird. Riptide is not JWD.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 08 2009 13:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: Because JWD is weird. Riptide is not JWD.
*sigh* Seriously?
On another note... + Show Spoiler +*cough* EffOrt *cough* Also, Shine lost to Kwanro, it is my great hope that we never seen Shine in the PR again.
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On November 08 2009 13:24 Scaramanga wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2009 17:41 StylishVODs wrote:Jaedong... + Show Spoiler +Many of you are too swift in judging the best players. If this was resultbased only he would drop more spots, but if the PR is about who is the best player right now Jaedong should still be up there. He had a few losses, but now he's back again like he always is. 2 consecutive OSL wins, amazing pro-league record, bonjwastatus on the kespa ranking and he drops 2 games in the pro-league to zergs and suddenly you want to put him low on the PR. riptide knows what he's doing. Then why when flash droped like 4 games was he pushed OUT of the power rank, if it happened to flash it should happen to jaedong Very bad example, Flash was once dealt too severly and like 3-4 times left in a higher position than he should have been because of his name. But ppl tend to forget that. I'm okay actually with good players dropping the ranks slower, and bad players climbing them harder, regardless of stats.
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On November 08 2009 16:44 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2009 13:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: Because JWD is weird. Riptide is not JWD. *sigh* Seriously? On another note... + Show Spoiler +*cough* EffOrt *cough* Also, Shine lost to Kwanro, it is my great hope that we never seen Shine in the PR again.
Yes, I personally think JWD's Power Ranks were weird and that he does not, infact, have a similar criteria to Riptide.
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On November 08 2009 13:24 Scaramanga wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2009 17:41 StylishVODs wrote:Jaedong... + Show Spoiler +Many of you are too swift in judging the best players. If this was resultbased only he would drop more spots, but if the PR is about who is the best player right now Jaedong should still be up there. He had a few losses, but now he's back again like he always is. 2 consecutive OSL wins, amazing pro-league record, bonjwastatus on the kespa ranking and he drops 2 games in the pro-league to zergs and suddenly you want to put him low on the PR. riptide knows what he's doing. Then why when flash droped like 4 games was he pushed OUT of the power rank, if it happened to flash it should happen to jaedong While in retrospect dropping him totally off the rank was wrong, but during those days of the summer Flash did nothing but disappoint every time the stakes got high. He dropped out of OSL in an uninspiring effort during the group stages, lost vs Kwanro in the MSL and dropped the ball in extremely important PL matches in the end of the season, including 2 losses vs STX. Not to mention the fact that he had not beaten a top tier P or Z in months during that time. (Or he did beat Effort in an meaningless match for him doing bbs)
The only thing he seemed capable of was during that time was rolling noobs, which he did a lot of in GOM (While going through the tournament with 1 loss was impressive, he did not really play anyone good that entire tournament, beside Iris who in all honesty is not very good tho he was performing OK during those days. Not to mention that it was in Flash by far strongest matchup. Also several of his strongest opponents did not even participate in the tournament)
Jaedong on the other hand have lost a few PL matches and nothing else. Arguments can be made that he should have been lower, but comparing him to Flash who dropped out of 2 Starleagues and failing at the most critical time of PL before getting dropped big time is just silly.
Anyway enough of the Flash bashing by me for now. I just love that he is back in shape and on a rampage so hopefully we can see some BO5s between the 3 big dogs this Starleague season.
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Unlucky for you, that'll never happen. Bisu out of OSL, and I'll bet good money that the cards fall where neither Jaedong, Bisu, or Flash will meet each other after group stages. =(
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Flash needs to shape up his TvP play! It's still good but compared to his other matchups right now it's clearly his weakest.
Last 20 games each matchup TvZ 17-3 TvT 17-3 TvP 12-8
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Yep. I've been saying for a while that I didn't think Flash's TvP was up to par, but I always got jumped on by other Flash fans, lol. Well, if anyone can fundamentally improve a matchup, Flash can. It's not like there are ANY Terrans right now who can be called 'S-class TvP'.
Flash's TvZ and TvT are still God Tier at any rate. Especially TvT, he's practically invincible in it.
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Flash is becoming FBH 2.0, you heard it here first!
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On November 10 2009 05:52 Djabanete wrote: Flash is becoming FBH 2.0, you heard it here first!
that would make him casy 3.0, would it not?
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Norway1530 Posts
On November 10 2009 07:19 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2009 05:52 Djabanete wrote: Flash is becoming FBH 2.0, you heard it here first! that would make him casy 3.0, would it not? boxer 4.0? hey, this is fun
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
From last night: - I'm glad that a sublimely terrible player like Justin was the one to expose Calm as overrated. - There's Luxury, and then there's Violet as the only players who really gained from last night. We've seen what Lux has to offer, but Violet remains an intriguing prospect, months after he first burst onto the scene by beating Bisu. He's starting to look like a Sea-esque player, dominant in PL, but poor in starleagues. - Flash, and fantasy tread water after last night. Flash redeemed himself in the ace match, although questions about his TvP linger. Fantasy polished off HoeJJa convincingly as he should have, and then proved that the "F" in "FvT" stands for Flash and not him. not a big deal, we already knew that. The battle between these two is shaping up again, as both seem to be in fine form. Fantasy owns the TvP, and Flash takes the TvT, which leaves both player's very different TvZ styles to determine the supremacy of the Terran race. Fascinating. - Bisu falls of course. He's looked very weak recently, it's impossible to ignore.
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fantasy's TvP might be better than Flash's, but is there really anything to base that on at the moment?
Yeah, Flash majorly disappointed everyone against BeSt, but fantasy also recently lost to Stats, Shuttle, and Stork (x2), and only beat free[gm] and Much.
I've been wondering for a while if maybe the top Protoss are just pulling entirely away from the top Terrans lately, and it's just not as apparent because they still choke against low-level Zergs.
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It feels to me like rush distances are increasing, which makes TvP, PvZ, and TvZ harder.
Hopefully Terran will start adding more units to TvP. Mass vulture/tank/turrets on 2-3 bases has been losing its luster. (And Protoss has gotten wise to vulture drops and wraith-first builds. The solution to the latter - don't open reavers - makes the matchup really dull.) Protoss are using (or threatening to use) every unit they have, with the exception of Corsair/Scout/DA, which don't apply because Terrans aren't using the units they counter. Vultures, tanks, and mines are all great units, but I have to wonder if there comes a point when EVEN MOAR OF THE SAME is actually effective. Instead of camping extra tanks at your army's edge, or clumping them so they all die to splash, maybe some M&M + Lockdown? (Or even bunkers, to tank hits.) You can have ~1.5 marines in place of a vulture, and when stimmed they each do as much damage even to dragoons and air...
I really want to see double M&M drops. It's easy to leave behind a few cannons, or a few dragoons, to block vulture drops. But M&M will murder such a piddling defense, and they can destroy your nexus, or even hold you at your ramp when your army gets back. Goon/obs only counter M&M in an open field. Two dropships of M&M has similar damage output to a zeal/goon Recall, and costs... 1000/250 and 20 food. ~half the price, with far less tech overhead, and you can probably re-use the dropships. Current play doesn't allow Terran a good way to counter the Protoss for taking tons of bases and keeping his army in the field (a small number of cannons or dragoons will generally settle vulture harass) while the Protoss can threaten to recall as soon as the Terran's army stops standing in his bases. Not tactically convenient.
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MnM can never, ever become standard in TvP. Protoss will just start making Reavers/HT and the game is over.
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On November 10 2009 09:01 tree.hugger wrote:From last night: - I'm glad that a sublimely terrible player like Justin was the one to expose Calm as overrated.
How, precisely, does a single loss to anyone short of Juni prove that a player is over-rated? For what it's worth, Justin is 2-0 on the Proleague year. Granted PianO's TvT is less than spectacular - still! Calm's in both leagues, and probably one of the favorites.
I could make similar comments about "Oh lord Bisu lost to Luxury, overrated." At least (unlike Lux's ZvP) Justin's TvZ is his best MU.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 10 2009 22:07 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2009 09:01 tree.hugger wrote:From last night: - I'm glad that a sublimely terrible player like Justin was the one to expose Calm as overrated. How, precisely, does a single loss to anyone short of Juni prove that a player is over-rated? For what it's worth, Justin is 2-0 on the Proleague year. Granted PianO's TvT is less than spectacular - still! Calm's in both leagues, and probably one of the favorites. I could make similar comments about "Oh lord Bisu lost to Luxury, overrated." At least (unlike Lux's ZvP) Justin's TvZ is his best MU.
Oh, I'm biased.
But I do think a little difference is that we know what Bisu is capable of, so we say that he's slumping. While I actually do like Calm, I found his MSL run to be absurdly uninspiring, and his proleague finals performance to be abysmal. But I feel as though I'm the only person on the planet who sees the truth. I just am never impressed by Calm's play.
That said, Justin IS terrible.
EDIT: And Calm might be the smartest player in BW.
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Calm does strike me as slightly overrated. He soundly defeated Effort and Jaedong in the MSL, but he did it while they were both living corpses from trying to carry their teams through multiples rounds of the playoffs on different maps. (And Jaedong was busy with OSL, too.) When he met a good-micro ZvZ player with time to practice (Luxury) he lost 0-2.
I'm mostly impressed by his willingness to play a normal game OR throw lurkers in your face, in ZvP or ZvT. Starcraft is much harder when you can't guarantee your opponent is doing the same standard build again.
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On November 10 2009 03:04 StylishVODs wrote: Flash needs to shape up his TvP play! It's still good but compared to his other matchups right now it's clearly his weakest.
Last 20 games each matchup TvZ 17-3 TvT 17-3 TvP 12-8 mhhhhmm.. god forbit a man goes 12-8 (60%) in a statistacally Protoss favored matchup
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On November 10 2009 05:52 Djabanete wrote: Flash is becoming FBH 2.0, you heard it here first! not at all. Flash's TvP is RIDICULOUSLY better than FBH's.. -___- and dont even get me started with Casy's TvP
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On November 11 2009 04:57 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2009 03:04 StylishVODs wrote: Flash needs to shape up his TvP play! It's still good but compared to his other matchups right now it's clearly his weakest.
Last 20 games each matchup TvZ 17-3 TvT 17-3 TvP 12-8 mhhhhmm.. god forbit a man goes 12-8 (60%) in a statistacally Protoss favored matchup
That it is a good record doesn't change the fact that it is his worst matchup, and that he might very well need to improve it in order to win any single leagues.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 11 2009 04:57 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2009 03:04 StylishVODs wrote: Flash needs to shape up his TvP play! It's still good but compared to his other matchups right now it's clearly his weakest.
Last 20 games each matchup TvZ 17-3 TvT 17-3 TvP 12-8 mhhhhmm.. god forbit a man goes 12-8 (60%) in a statistacally Protoss favored matchup
Your point?
Everything Stylish said was totally legitimate, and you didn't address a single thing he said. Flash's TvP IS his weakest match-up although it's still quite good compared with the norm. But there are plenty of players like BeSt who he's likely to meet in the upper reaches of starleague play, and he needs to beat them to be considered on top.
I don't think we've seen enough to be truely worried right now, I think Bisu's PvZ and JD's ZvZ are worrisome enough. But certainly a flaw that we're going to need to keep an eye on.
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Nobody's saying Flash's TvP is bad, just that it's much, much worse than his godly TvT and TvZ.
Yes, Flash curbstomps low-level Protoss with ease, but the ex-dragons all seem to be on equal (or even higher) footing with him.
Elo tells the tale just as well. Flash has the highest TvP Elo, but it's still much lower than his other two matchups, and some Protoss players have close to or higher PvT Elo than Flash's TvP Elo.
TvT: 2280 TvZ: 2268 TvP: 2196
No player has a ZvT or TvT score within 50 pts of Flash's score in those matchups, so he's the king of TvT and TvZ, sure.
But look here, players who have ~50 close to Flash's TvP in PvT:
Bisu (above Flash, even) Stork (2 points away) Jangbi free Kal
So yes, we're in an odd situation where Flash has the (theoretically Elo) best TvP (realistically, Fantasy is very close and it's hard to tell whose is better), and yet it's still not good enough to avoid worrying about Flash dropping games to the dragons, especially in Starleagues.
If Flash can avoid Protoss players, he should have a really good shot at winning a Starleague. If he runs into any of the ex-dragons, Flash fans have good reason to be worried. He really does need to work on his TvP if he wants to win a starleague again. The same goes for any Terran player right now, though.
And no, god no, he's not the next Firebathero. Flash TvP: 2196. FBH TvP: 1971. End of discussion.
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Meh. I'm not too worried about Flash's TvP for alot of reasons, mainly that it seems like Protoss players just adapt to his style and he's not putting his A game PvT out there. He'll fix it eventually.
I mean look at Bisu V. Flash in GOMS2 on Medusa... Flash beat Bisu on a P>>>>>>>T map (1.0) in a long macro game and then like a week later Bisu curbstomped him on the same map after simply adapting his strategy to Flash's. It's not like Flash suddenly got worse inbetween those two games, he just got out played. Flash just needs to mix it up a bit and try to be less predictable in TvP because once P's adapt to his gameplan he's put into a really bad spot.
Maps like Destination (map where he's lost to Kal, Jangbi and Bisu) only make it that much harder for Flash to win against S class PvT'ers and distort his results/form imo. It's a very unforgiving map for TvP and I think that's a pretty legitimate factor in his recent "TvP v S class protoss." One mistake and you're toast... I mean HBR can even be thrown into this discussion.
I think people tend to be a little bit too results oriented on TL. If game 3 of WCG Korea was on Athena II or something like Eye of The Storm/Katrina/Moon Glaive/Othello and Flash won a long macro game against Bisu, knocking him out of WCG (which he probably would on those kind of T>P maps... [I guess Katrina is more Flash>P though huh]) I think there would be alot less questioning of Flash's TvP.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem, just that people are probably overthinking it. It's a combination of different things and I don't think Flash has gotten any worse in TvP than he was in GSI or OSL08... he just needs to work on his style a bit.
EDIT: I MEAN FREAKING LOOK AT DESTINATION AHHHHH! Most imba TvP/PvT map in TLPD's database. (Not that that says everything but come on!) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/balance_table.php#tblt-1004-1-5-DESC
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On November 11 2009 04:57 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2009 05:52 Djabanete wrote: Flash is becoming FBH 2.0, you heard it here first! not at all. Flash's TvP is RIDICULOUSLY better than FBH's.. -___- and dont even get me started with Casy's TvP
Arg I didn't think anyone would take that remark seriously.
Flash's TvP is his Achilles' heel for the moment, but (a) it's way better than most TvP, and (b) I expect him to rework it soon and make it even better than it is already.
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On November 11 2009 08:56 Vasoline73 wrote:Meh. I'm not too worried about Flash's TvP for alot of reasons, mainly that it seems like Protoss players just adapt to his style and he's not putting his A game PvT out there. He'll fix it eventually. I mean look at Bisu V. Flash in GOMS2 on Medusa... Flash beat Bisu on a P>>>>>>>T map (1.0) in a long macro game and then like a week later Bisu curbstomped him on the same map after simply adapting his strategy to Flash's. It's not like Flash suddenly got worse inbetween those two games, he just got out played. Flash just needs to mix it up a bit and try to be less predictable in TvP because once P's adapt to his gameplan he's put into a really bad spot. Maps like Destination (map where he's lost to Kal, Jangbi and Bisu) only make it that much harder for Flash to win against S class PvT'ers and distort his results/form imo. It's a very unforgiving map for TvP and I think that's a pretty legitimate factor in his recent "TvP v S class protoss." One mistake and you're toast... I mean HBR can even be thrown into this discussion. I think people tend to be a little bit too results oriented on TL. If game 3 of WCG Korea was on Athena II or something like Eye of The Storm/Katrina/Moon Glaive/Othello and Flash won a long macro game against Bisu, knocking him out of WCG (which he probably would on those kind of T>P maps... [I guess Katrina is more Flash>P though huh]) I think there would be alot less questioning of Flash's TvP. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, just that people are probably overthinking it. It's a combination of different things and I don't think Flash has gotten any worse in TvP than he was in GSI or OSL08... he just needs to work on his style a bit. EDIT: I MEAN FREAKING LOOK AT DESTINATION AHHHHH! Most imba TvP/PvT map in TLPD's database. (Not that that says everything but come on!) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/balance_table.php#tblt-1004-1-5-DESC
wow, I never knew TLPD had a map imbalance feature.. which is pretty awesome
Although looking at it further, how does the map imbalance feature actually determine whether the map is imbalanced or not?
Does it take into account Bisu winning against Flash on that map versus Bisu winning against someone like FBH? Or are both wins counted as the same stat?
Confusing...
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It's determined by ELO I think.
Pokju beating Flash on Destination would swing the balance more P>T than Bisu beating Flash on Destination... stuff like that.
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On November 11 2009 20:01 Vasoline73 wrote: It's determined by ELO I think.
Pokju beating Flash on Destination would swing the balance more P>T than Bisu beating Flash on Destination... stuff like that. blashphemy
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United States10328 Posts
On November 11 2009 20:01 Vasoline73 wrote: It's determined by ELO I think.
Pokju beating Flash on Destination would swing the balance more P>T than Bisu beating Flash on Destination... stuff like that.
LOOOL reminds me of fakesteve's "HURRR WHERE'S POKJU"
hmm I remember the days where flash was invincible TvP
guess the protoss have adapted... but will flash unveil his supersexy TvP build and pwn all of them? stay tuned!
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destination is a really really really imbalnced map for pvt though, t cant do a damm thing on it.
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On November 14 2009 05:50 4Servy wrote: destination is a really really really imbalnced map for pvt though, t cant do a damm thing on it. besides camp outside the bridges and take their 3rd, turret up and max out?
The bridges make a P push impossible
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 14 2009 06:17 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 05:50 4Servy wrote: destination is a really really really imbalnced map for pvt though, t cant do a damm thing on it. besides camp outside the bridges and take their 3rd, turret up and max out? The bridges make a P push impossible
In some games, [race] can play well and defeat [other race] on [map] therefore, [previous poster] is incorrect and the balance is in fact opposite.
Duh.
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On November 14 2009 06:17 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 05:50 4Servy wrote: destination is a really really really imbalnced map for pvt though, t cant do a damm thing on it. besides camp outside the bridges and take their 3rd, turret up and max out? The bridges make a P push impossible
Have fun pushing half a mile, across bridges, through the infinite flanking zones into the protoss base while he recalls your main into oblivion, and stasis's twice at the ramps to completely block your push.
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...
If Destination is a bad map for Terran to mass vulture/tank off two bases and try to break Protoss's third in a massive push, then Terran should play a different style. If Destination is a bad map for Terran to mass vulture/tank off three bases and try to break Protoss's face in a massive push (with a few gols and one sci vessel OMG so much unit variety), then Terran should play a different style. "I can't win by massing two units, so imba!" is pathetic.
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Destination is a bad map for terran in every which way versus protoss. Unless you've got some magical incite that the progamers have no clue on.
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On November 14 2009 06:17 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 05:50 4Servy wrote: destination is a really really really imbalnced map for pvt though, t cant do a damm thing on it. besides camp outside the bridges and take their 3rd, turret up and max out? The bridges make a P push impossible
Notice how Flash picks his tank spots so as to minimize how much he stretches his Defense line, yet manages to shell the P middle expos and eventually bitch crawl to the other side of the map. It's all about positioning on Desti
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Flash is 4-6 on destination vs P, all of his losses coming from anyone mildly competent.
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Are international tournaments taken into consideration in the PR?
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On November 15 2009 18:28 Holgerius wrote: Are international tournaments taken into consideration in the PR?
WCG should be. :p
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On November 15 2009 18:28 Holgerius wrote: Are international tournaments taken into consideration in the PR? WCG should be, although that might drop JD out of next month's PR since he dropped a game to a foreigner...
first Hyuk, now some foreigner... what a loser... he should have just retired when he had the chance...
+ Show Spoiler +nice win over stork though... he's won every major competition out there now.
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On November 15 2009 20:33 jello24 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2009 18:28 Holgerius wrote: Are international tournaments taken into consideration in the PR? WCG should be, although that might drop JD out of next month's PR since he dropped a game to a foreigner...
lol like Effort/Bisu's perfect runs in IEF last month
Edit:Sarcasm detector fail, it usually doesnt work when you target JD, you should only use this kind of jokes for flash
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On November 14 2009 07:01 Severedevil wrote: ...
If Destination is a bad map for Terran to mass vulture/tank off two bases and try to break Protoss's third in a massive push, then Terran should play a different style. If Destination is a bad map for Terran to mass vulture/tank off three bases and try to break Protoss's face in a massive push (with a few gols and one sci vessel OMG so much unit variety), then Terran should play a different style. "I can't win by massing two units, so imba!" is pathetic.
No offense but idiot tosses saying terran should so something else on desti and hbr im getting sick of this nonsense. No one in the pro scene has done anything on this map, nor in the foreinger scene. ill explain why I think so.
Anykind of timing push fails cause a unharraseble third meaning you cant take full advantage of this build + bridges and a whide open space infront of toss base make it absolutly shit. 1 fac > 3 base with cliffing is horrible cause protoss just sees it 24/7 with obs and takes 5 bases and kill terran when they try move over the bridges.(cause you cant create a turret line wich blocks toss from vision on the base you will need like 12 turrets to do it). Fantasy build is nice in the early game cause large mains and spot behind nat there is alot of harraseble locations but with the fantasy build your upgrades are late meaning you get steamroled by arbiters + macro cause you dont have 3/2 weapons. And like said before its really impossible to push on this map so fantasy build losses potential, see stork vs fantasy on wcg outplay toss 10x still lose cause you cant do anything. Deep 6 dont work cause toss sees everything and such a long rush distance. 2 fac dont work cause you cant push over the bridges meaning at best you can only do some contain stuff.
What we have left? some retarderd proxy fac and armory build after 2th tank and just camp whole game long and hope toss doesnt get a good recall off and switches to carriers smoothly. What I prefer doing is doing a fantasy style opening but with only 1 fac or maximum of 2 fac and 1 port and then getting the armory already (before third) and do some damage with initial vultures and mb a tank drop behind the nat in order to equalise eco cause protoss is just gona explode after they take base 3&4. All won games on destination are either a protoss who fails or a massive turtle game were nothing goes wrong for terran and just keeps scanning for the carrier switch.
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hopefully flash-jaedong rivalry will reignite
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United States10328 Posts
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You sound so surprised at Hwasin's qualification :p
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On November 17 2009 02:05 SuperArc wrote:You sound so surprised at Hwasin's qualification :p well the man is soo incosistant and.. i dont think he's made the semi's in any major SL he's a good quality player. but he doesnt have the "magic"
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thats the point, he never gets far but hes always qualified in SL's
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Really hoping Sea is in the next Power Rank. He's been a total beast in his games as of late.
Though getting rolled in individual leagues probably doesnt help any.
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On November 17 2009 07:49 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2009 02:05 SuperArc wrote:You sound so surprised at Hwasin's qualification :p well the man is soo incosistant and.. i dont think he's made the semi's in any major SL he's a good quality player. but he doesnt have the "magic"
Inconsistent? Hwasin is the mere personification of consistency!!! Him qualifying for Ro16 (however strong the group is) is a safer bet than JD/Flash/Bisu qualifying. And Hwasin did reach the semi-final of GOM TV S1 MSL.
The only reason he doesnt have a gold is because like you said "he dosnt have the magic"
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The month is still young, actually there is just a lot of starcraft left in it. + Show Spoiler +Well he has +3 games left to play, which is 50% more than he has played so far, unless you count his 2-0 of Fantasy at the Asian Indoor Games
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On November 17 2009 08:13 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2009 07:49 DreaM)XeRO wrote:On November 17 2009 02:05 SuperArc wrote:You sound so surprised at Hwasin's qualification :p well the man is soo incosistant and.. i dont think he's made the semi's in any major SL he's a good quality player. but he doesnt have the "magic" Inconsistent? Hwasin is the mere personification of consistency!!! Him qualifying for Ro16 (however strong the group is) is a safer bet than JD/Flash/Bisu qualifying. And Hwasin did reach the semi-final of GOM TV S1 MSL. The only reason he doesnt have a gold is because like you said "he dosnt have the magic"
He won a WCG korea
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On November 17 2009 16:06 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2009 08:13 SuperArc wrote:On November 17 2009 07:49 DreaM)XeRO wrote:On November 17 2009 02:05 SuperArc wrote:You sound so surprised at Hwasin's qualification :p well the man is soo incosistant and.. i dont think he's made the semi's in any major SL he's a good quality player. but he doesnt have the "magic" Inconsistent? Hwasin is the mere personification of consistency!!! Him qualifying for Ro16 (however strong the group is) is a safer bet than JD/Flash/Bisu qualifying. And Hwasin did reach the semi-final of GOM TV S1 MSL. The only reason he doesnt have a gold is because like you said "he dosnt have the magic" He won a WCG korea In all honesty, no one really cares when they get to the final match. They've already qualified at that stage anyways.
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Hwasin is one of the most consistently decent terrans around. He always qualifies, he's just not champion material.
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On November 18 2009 07:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Hwasin is one of the most consistently decent terrans around. He always qualifies, he's just not champion material.
Because he always meets a protoss.... usually Bisu. But Bisu ain't in the OSL so maybe it is his time!
Or not.
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On November 18 2009 11:06 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2009 07:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Hwasin is one of the most consistently decent terrans around. He always qualifies, he's just not champion material. Because he always meets a protoss.... usually Bisu. But Bisu ain't in the OSL so maybe it is his time! Or not.
More like he usually loses to the eventual champion. :p
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United States10328 Posts
On November 17 2009 02:05 SuperArc wrote:You sound so surprised at Hwasin's qualification :p
i wouldn't be surprised if he made one starleague, but both is pretty cool [being the only other terran than flash to do that? ... pretty cool]
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Hwasin's gonna pull a GGplay one day. Qualify solidly but fail out in group stages for like 3 years running and then BOOM, epic comeback title win.
JUST YOU GUYS WAIT.
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On November 18 2009 23:45 TwoToneTerran wrote: Hwasin's gonna pull a GGplay one day. Qualify solidly but fail out in group stages for like 3 years running and then BOOM, epic comeback title win.
JUST YOU GUYS WAIT.
I hope it's against Bisu in a OSL final if both ever get there .
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Bisu is the insurance toss as far as OSL is concerned.
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On November 19 2009 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: Bisu is the insurance toss as far as OSL is concerned. +1
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On November 19 2009 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: Bisu is the insurance toss as far as OSL is concerned. That's funny because it's true! XD
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Hwasin will never win anything -_-. I'm still mad about him losing to Jaedong in Arena. That proved to me that even with the red carpet in front of him he'll never win a league. The game on COLLO!?!?! When he could have just freaking killed everything by going into the main with his first MnM force or at the very least shut down the third hatch and instead he just focused on a single lurker egg and got owned?
And then losing to the 4 pool because he delayed his rax a bit -_-;;;;;;;;;
As soon as Hwasin faces anyone half decent and there is a tiny bit of pressure to win, he'll lose.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On November 19 2009 09:22 Vasoline73 wrote: Hwasin will never win anything -_-. I'm still mad about him losing to Jaedong in Arena. That proved to me that even with the red carpet in front of him he'll never win a league. The game on COLLO!?!?! When he could have just freaking killed everything by going into the main with his first MnM force or at the very least shut down the third hatch and instead he just focused on a single lurker egg and got owned?
And then losing to the 4 pool because he delayed his rax a bit -_-;;;;;;;;;
As soon as Hwasin faces anyone half decent and there is a tiny bit of pressure to win, he'll lose. But if there's any better time to be playing, it's now for Hwasin. Less terrans and protosses out there, more zergs to kill. While his TvT is mediocre, his TvP is decent, despite his 48% win rate. It hurts when you've played Bisu 17 times, yet only scraped out 5 wins.
Zergs have gotten better lately, but I feel as long as Hwasin doesn't all in and fuck up early game, his TvZ is absolutely stellar. Some of the best bio play in the business.
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Wow, poor Calm has to play three different matchups within two days.
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Poor power ranking, Bisu loses only one Bo3 for the month you put him at 5th, when he remains closely tied for 1st ELO rated and has been for a long time. Jaedong drops to 4th ELO rated and plays mediocre and you put him at 2nd? What a joke
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Norway1530 Posts
Zero is looking good atm, 9 game win-streak and in both leagues.
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On November 22 2009 09:27 Jonvvv wrote: Zero is looking good atm, 9 game win-streak and in both leagues.
Zero is a streaky zerg, one loss and its all over again.
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Sea is being awesome. Good enough for next PR?
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On November 22 2009 14:59 Holgerius wrote: Sea is being awesome. Good enough for next PR?
hell yeah
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Can we give Hwasin a special award for being a terrible person?
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On November 22 2009 09:18 arcology wrote: Poor power ranking, Bisu loses only one Bo3 for the month you put him at 5th, when he remains closely tied for 1st ELO rated and has been for a long time. Jaedong drops to 4th ELO rated and plays mediocre and you put him at 2nd? What a joke Yes, ELO is everything.
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
yea the PR needs some Sea!
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On November 22 2009 09:18 arcology wrote: Poor power ranking, Bisu loses only one Bo3 for the month you put him at 5th, when he remains closely tied for 1st ELO rated and has been for a long time. Jaedong drops to 4th ELO rated and plays mediocre and you put him at 2nd? What a joke
It has everything to do with how they looked in their games. Jaedong is a recent golden mouse winner, it's gonna take a bit to push him down. Bisu didn't accomplish anything incredible in individual leagues last season and has played poorly in Proleague.
ELO/KESPA Rank are things I doubt riptide takes into heavy consideration.
It's fine to disagree, but insulting people who put hard work into contributing to TL is a douche move. If you put in 1/16th of the effort riptide does into making TL a great community maybe someone would take you seriously.
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On November 23 2009 07:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2009 09:18 arcology wrote: Poor power ranking, Bisu loses only one Bo3 for the month you put him at 5th, when he remains closely tied for 1st ELO rated and has been for a long time. Jaedong drops to 4th ELO rated and plays mediocre and you put him at 2nd? What a joke It has everything to do with how they looked in their games. Jaedong is a recent golden mouse winner, it's gonna take a bit to push him down. Bisu didn't accomplish anything incredible in individual leagues last season and has played poorly in Proleague. ELO/KESPA Rank are things I doubt riptide takes into heavy consideration. It's fine to disagree, but insulting people who put hard work into contributing to TL is a douche move. If you put in 1/16th of the effort riptide does into making TL a great community maybe someone would take you seriously.
I'd say most of the 5th place is due to the best-of-3 loss against a previously unheralded Zerg in what is/was supposed to be Bisu's best match up. Bisu hasn't played poorly in PL: he's 5-1 and was 4-0 when the rank was published, although the only good player he'd faced was SangHo.
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I think Jaedong's placement was just meant as a nod to his recent golden mouse. Nobody argues that his performance last month was better than Bisu's.
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On November 23 2009 20:43 Tyxiquale wrote: sangho is good?
No
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On November 23 2009 21:11 DoctorHelvetica wrote:No Don't knock Sangho, in his game against Jaedong he was taking out like two scourges with every corsair he produced.
That's some sexy micro.
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Wemade vs KT PL spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +Violet deserves a low spot on the PL next month IMHO. 6-0 in proleague and just overcame Mind map imba in a sick sick game. At twenty minutes in, he was in this situation: one of his bases got emp'd and nuked (rather cost-effectively i must say) while the other was harassed to death and his fourth was getting pushed on. Solution? 3 cannons and 4 goons clear out 15 vultures, abandon 7 o clock ground zero spot, and stasis 9 tanks and storm 5 more to crush the push with a numerically even army. That is Flash-level decision making and nerves.
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On November 24 2009 21:12 t_co wrote:Wemade vs KT PL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +Violet deserves a low spot on the PL next month IMHO. 6-0 in proleague and just overcame Mind map imba in a sick sick game. At twenty minutes in, he was in this situation: one of his bases got emp'd and nuked (rather cost-effectively i must say) while the other was harassed to death and his fourth was getting pushed on. Solution? 3 cannons and 4 goons clear out 15 vultures, abandon 7 o clock ground zero spot, and stasis 9 tanks and storm 5 more to crush the push with a numerically even army. That is Flash-level decision making and nerves.
SLs gonna fill out the PR pretty much. Not much place for PL players only imo.
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On November 24 2009 21:12 t_co wrote:Wemade vs KT PL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +Violet deserves a low spot on the PL next month IMHO. 6-0 in proleague and just overcame Mind map imba in a sick sick game. At twenty minutes in, he was in this situation: one of his bases got emp'd and nuked (rather cost-effectively i must say) while the other was harassed to death and his fourth was getting pushed on. Solution? 3 cannons and 4 goons clear out 15 vultures, abandon 7 o clock ground zero spot, and stasis 9 tanks and storm 5 more to crush the push with a numerically even army. That is Flash-level decision making and nerves. + Show Spoiler +Before his wicked comeback, I think he played pretty sloppily this game, losing stuff to mines over and over. That said, Violet is a powerful player, undefeated in PL and certainly worth considering for the PR. Him being sent for the ace match over Flash is a testament to his quality.
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Violet is one of my favorite players, but without a msl or osl appearance its gonna be hard to give him anything more then cnbc. Which he really should get imo.
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On November 24 2009 14:11 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2009 21:11 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On November 23 2009 20:43 Tyxiquale wrote: sangho is good? No Don't knock Sangho, in his game against Jaedong he was taking out like two scourges with every corsair he produced. That's some sexy micro. Pretty good strat, he kept the scourge number low so JD had less scouting info. I didnt even realize how genious that move was.
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On November 25 2009 03:11 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 14:11 Djabanete wrote:On November 23 2009 21:11 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On November 23 2009 20:43 Tyxiquale wrote: sangho is good? No Don't knock Sangho, in his game against Jaedong he was taking out like two scourges with every corsair he produced. That's some sexy micro. Pretty good strat, he kept the scourge number low so JD had less scouting info. I didnt even realize how genious that move was.
Yeah, too bad JD had double that amount of mutalisks to rape him with.
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Flash looks like #1 again next month unless he somehow loses his MSL group (not damn likely considering he's only got T and Z in there with him). Only one loss in the past 2 months (14-1 record so far), and may very well break the all-time ELO peak record if he wins his game against Hite and 2-0s his MSL group.
ZerO deserves a spot on PR too, he's 8-1 this month, his only loss being against Effort.
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Problem with predicting Flash to stomp: He's got to play hite and his MSL group on the same day AGAIN. I'm really tired of Flash getting the ass end of scheduling, requiring him to play ATLEAST 3 games and having to practice for five or six.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 23 2009 10:05 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2009 07:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On November 22 2009 09:18 arcology wrote: Poor power ranking, Bisu loses only one Bo3 for the month you put him at 5th, when he remains closely tied for 1st ELO rated and has been for a long time. Jaedong drops to 4th ELO rated and plays mediocre and you put him at 2nd? What a joke It has everything to do with how they looked in their games. Jaedong is a recent golden mouse winner, it's gonna take a bit to push him down. Bisu didn't accomplish anything incredible in individual leagues last season and has played poorly in Proleague. ELO/KESPA Rank are things I doubt riptide takes into heavy consideration. It's fine to disagree, but insulting people who put hard work into contributing to TL is a douche move. If you put in 1/16th of the effort riptide does into making TL a great community maybe someone would take you seriously. I'd say most of the 5th place is due to the best-of-3 loss against a previously unheralded Zerg in what is/was supposed to be Bisu's best match up. Bisu hasn't played poorly in PL: he's 5-1 and was 4-0 when the rank was published, although the only good player he'd faced was SangHo.
Bisu's loss to Shine should be viewed as a complete and utter failure to defeat a zerg who is relatively unskilled past his savage mutalisk micro. this is not an opponent most Protoss players, and especially Bisu, should lose to. there's a ton of these zergs around these days, too.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 11 2009 00:53 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2009 22:07 Musoeun wrote:On November 10 2009 09:01 tree.hugger wrote:From last night: - I'm glad that a sublimely terrible player like Justin was the one to expose Calm as overrated. How, precisely, does a single loss to anyone short of Juni prove that a player is over-rated? For what it's worth, Justin is 2-0 on the Proleague year. Granted PianO's TvT is less than spectacular - still! Calm's in both leagues, and probably one of the favorites. I could make similar comments about "Oh lord Bisu lost to Luxury, overrated." At least (unlike Lux's ZvP) Justin's TvZ is his best MU. Oh, I'm biased. But I do think a little difference is that we know what Bisu is capable of, so we say that he's slumping. While I actually do like Calm, I found his MSL run to be absurdly uninspiring, and his proleague finals performance to be abysmal. But I feel as though I'm the only person on the planet who sees the truth. I just am never impressed by Calm's play. That said, Justin IS terrible. EDIT: And Calm might be the smartest player in BW.
calm is ridiculously skilled, but he always uses hit-or-miss allin builds. sometimes he looks like total and complete shit, but a lot of the time his snap decision making and unit control are sublime. this has been calm's deal since he debuted, if anyone doesn't know about it they just haven't paid attention
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 26 2009 03:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2009 00:53 tree.hugger wrote:On November 10 2009 22:07 Musoeun wrote:On November 10 2009 09:01 tree.hugger wrote:From last night: - I'm glad that a sublimely terrible player like Justin was the one to expose Calm as overrated. How, precisely, does a single loss to anyone short of Juni prove that a player is over-rated? For what it's worth, Justin is 2-0 on the Proleague year. Granted PianO's TvT is less than spectacular - still! Calm's in both leagues, and probably one of the favorites. I could make similar comments about "Oh lord Bisu lost to Luxury, overrated." At least (unlike Lux's ZvP) Justin's TvZ is his best MU. Oh, I'm biased. But I do think a little difference is that we know what Bisu is capable of, so we say that he's slumping. While I actually do like Calm, I found his MSL run to be absurdly uninspiring, and his proleague finals performance to be abysmal. But I feel as though I'm the only person on the planet who sees the truth. I just am never impressed by Calm's play. That said, Justin IS terrible. EDIT: And Calm might be the smartest player in BW. calm is ridiculously skilled, but he always uses hit-or-miss allin builds. sometimes he looks like total and complete shit, but a lot of the time his snap decision making and unit control are sublime. this has been calm's deal since he debuted, if anyone doesn't know about it they just haven't paid attention
And he looked absolutely out-of-sorts last night...
No, I agree that Calm is skilled (clearly to win an MSL you must be incredibly skilled), but I see everything except for his planning to be a shade below that of Jaedong and then EffOrt who I view as the two best zergs in the game right now.
It bothers me a bit, because I never see Calm as a sure thing in any of his games- whereas I see the other two as almost auto-wins in proleague. Also, Calm's embarrassing loss to scourge in the proleague playoffs against great have left a sour taste in my mouth for Calm's reaction timing.
At this point though- Calm's month has not been good at all- so I would expect him to fall to the back five. But I have no idea where Riptide will put him, because I did not understand this last rank at all. To each, his own.
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On November 26 2009 03:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2009 00:53 tree.hugger wrote:On November 10 2009 22:07 Musoeun wrote:On November 10 2009 09:01 tree.hugger wrote:From last night: - I'm glad that a sublimely terrible player like Justin was the one to expose Calm as overrated. How, precisely, does a single loss to anyone short of Juni prove that a player is over-rated? For what it's worth, Justin is 2-0 on the Proleague year. Granted PianO's TvT is less than spectacular - still! Calm's in both leagues, and probably one of the favorites. I could make similar comments about "Oh lord Bisu lost to Luxury, overrated." At least (unlike Lux's ZvP) Justin's TvZ is his best MU. Oh, I'm biased. But I do think a little difference is that we know what Bisu is capable of, so we say that he's slumping. While I actually do like Calm, I found his MSL run to be absurdly uninspiring, and his proleague finals performance to be abysmal. But I feel as though I'm the only person on the planet who sees the truth. I just am never impressed by Calm's play. That said, Justin IS terrible. EDIT: And Calm might be the smartest player in BW. calm is ridiculously skilled, but he always uses hit-or-miss allin builds. sometimes he looks like total and complete shit, but a lot of the time his snap decision making and unit control are sublime. this has been calm's deal since he debuted, if anyone doesn't know about it they just haven't paid attention
So you're saying that Calm is Luxury.
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On November 26 2009 05:05 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 03:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On November 11 2009 00:53 tree.hugger wrote:On November 10 2009 22:07 Musoeun wrote:On November 10 2009 09:01 tree.hugger wrote:From last night: - I'm glad that a sublimely terrible player like Justin was the one to expose Calm as overrated. How, precisely, does a single loss to anyone short of Juni prove that a player is over-rated? For what it's worth, Justin is 2-0 on the Proleague year. Granted PianO's TvT is less than spectacular - still! Calm's in both leagues, and probably one of the favorites. I could make similar comments about "Oh lord Bisu lost to Luxury, overrated." At least (unlike Lux's ZvP) Justin's TvZ is his best MU. Oh, I'm biased. But I do think a little difference is that we know what Bisu is capable of, so we say that he's slumping. While I actually do like Calm, I found his MSL run to be absurdly uninspiring, and his proleague finals performance to be abysmal. But I feel as though I'm the only person on the planet who sees the truth. I just am never impressed by Calm's play. That said, Justin IS terrible. EDIT: And Calm might be the smartest player in BW. calm is ridiculously skilled, but he always uses hit-or-miss allin builds. sometimes he looks like total and complete shit, but a lot of the time his snap decision making and unit control are sublime. this has been calm's deal since he debuted, if anyone doesn't know about it they just haven't paid attention So you're saying that Calm is Luxury.
Wow, those are two players that I never would have thought of as being similar. Calm will outsmart you with a well-prepared build, whereas Luxury will just outballs you and outmicro you.
Personal preference: I like Luxury's style more, but Calm certainly has a lot of skill. I'll respect anyone who's won an individual league
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On November 26 2009 00:57 TwoToneTerran wrote: Problem with predicting Flash to stomp: He's got to play hite and his MSL group on the same day AGAIN. I'm really tired of Flash getting the ass end of scheduling, requiring him to play ATLEAST 3 games and having to practice for five or six.
Atleast he might not have to play in a possible acematch. Violet is doing ok.
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Looks like we'll have Flash as #1 and JD as #2 again, Stork or Effort should get #3 (atm Stork is the clear favourite). As a JD fan I would be satisfied.
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Russian Federation405 Posts
On November 26 2009 05:54 SuperArc wrote:Looks like we'll have Flash as #1 and JD as #2 again, Stork or Effort should get #3 (atm Stork is the clear favourite). As a JD fan I would be satisfied. JD won Bisu and Stork in Bo3s, and who won Flash this month?..
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Best, but then Best proceeded to do nothing and Flash continued to rape, so.
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best is a natural counter to flash so thats ok, flash had another good month except that 1 loss wich can happen.
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On November 26 2009 06:16 nonduc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 05:54 SuperArc wrote:Looks like we'll have Flash as #1 and JD as #2 again, Stork or Effort should get #3 (atm Stork is the clear favourite). As a JD fan I would be satisfied. JD won Bisu and Stork in Bo3s, and who won Flash this month?.. 3-0 Fantasy (2-0 were in Asian indoor games search AIG and you can find the thread), and Mind. He also has 3 more games to go (although it could be 5 if he loses an MSL game, as well as playing in the Ace Match). I am working under the assumption he will play proleague.
About how important the AIG was, it is defiantly less important than WCG, but there is no reason to believe (to my knowledge) Fantasy didn't try his best those games.
Also Jaedong dropped a game to a foreigner (A2/advokote/??? I get Russian Terran confused), which has to be taken into account.
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On November 26 2009 10:10 wswordsmen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 06:16 nonduc wrote:On November 26 2009 05:54 SuperArc wrote:Looks like we'll have Flash as #1 and JD as #2 again, Stork or Effort should get #3 (atm Stork is the clear favourite). As a JD fan I would be satisfied. JD won Bisu and Stork in Bo3s, and who won Flash this month?.. 3-0 Fantasy (2-0 were in Asian indoor games search AIG and you can find the thread), and Mind. He also has 3 more games to go (although it could be 5 if he loses an MSL game, as well as playing in the Ace Match). I am working under the assumption he will play proleague. About how important the AIG was, it is defiantly less important than WCG, but there is no reason to believe (to my knowledge) Fantasy didn't try his best those games. Also Jaedong dropped a game to a foreigner (A2/advokote/??? I get Russian Terran confused), which has to be taken into account.
Statistics mean a lot less than you think they do. Competition is fierce, dropping a game to a foreigner isn't a big deal. Jaedong is still a brilliant player and one of the best. As we progress through the starleagues, we'll get a better idea of who the best are. Not by looking at their statistics, but at their gameplay
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Well, Flash is still kind of 14-1 with better gameplay than Jaedong the majority of the time, if you want to get finnicky.
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Well, Flash still hasn't played any good PvTs lately, just putting that out there.
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On November 26 2009 12:11 Avidkeystamper wrote: Well, Flash still hasn't played any good PvTs lately, just putting that out there.
I will be very interested to see Flash vs Stork in their OSL group. I sure as hell hope that Flash doesn't bring his usual 3-base turtle/upgrade plan, because Stork would dismantle that with ease.
Honestly I have no idea what kind of game Flash will bring, but it had better be good.
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It won't be for awhile, though their last match was good, and Flash lost because he upgraded too much as you said. Yeah, should be good.
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Jaedong has also not played many good TvPs lately either. I don't think we can compare.
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On November 26 2009 12:11 Avidkeystamper wrote: Well, Flash still hasn't played any good PvTs lately, just putting that out there. Watch Day[9]'s analysis of Flash vs. Best, the reason Flash lost was he left his tanks undefended in order to lay mines to intercept reinforcements from Best's main. Had he kept his vultures with his tanks he would have been in an excellent postion to win the game in the long term. He might have lost, but it wasn't because of he wasn't playing "good".
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What? I never said he didnt play good, just stating that both players have a questionable MU atm.
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On November 26 2009 15:59 Avidkeystamper wrote: What? I never said he didnt play good, just stating that both players have a questionable MU atm. I disagree, you might have meant to say that (which I would agree with btw), but you said:
On November 26 2009 12:11 Avidkeystamper wrote: Well, Flash still hasn't played any good PvTs lately, just putting that out there. This looks to me more like you are attacking Flash's TvP for his loss to Best. That said this was a misunderstanding, and I do agree both players have a questionable matchup.
fake edit: I just noticed it said PvT which makes the Jaedong comment a few post above a lot funnier.
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I posted good PvTs, as in Protosses who are good at PvT.
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Heh, Calm will fall a long way. And props to riptide for JD>Calm in the earlier month.
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Ya, it was 100% a correct decision to place JD over Clam.
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
ahh damn it seems JD destroying 2 best protosses in the WCG wasn't enough for #1 spot as Flash has been very impressive aswell!
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Jaedong's eaten 4 nasty losses in his supposed best MUIs recently, against a few mediocre to bad opponents. I expect he won't pass up Flash who has lost only one game -- which was pretty reasonable.
Depends on if he crushes Arnc, though, to prove his TvZ is still on the fast track to Oov in domination level.
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Disregarding WCG, a win against type-B later would bring Stork to his longest winning streak of 10 games.
My bro Stork is making me really proud. B)
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On November 27 2009 00:50 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong's eaten 4 nasty losses in his supposed best MUIs recently, against a few mediocre to bad opponents. I expect he won't pass up Flash who has lost only one game -- which was pretty reasonable.
Depends on if he crushes Arnc, though, to prove his TvZ is still on the fast track to Oov in domination level.
He has only lost one match this month though, so he is 5-1 this month (6-1 if you account for the win against Yellow on 10-31, which wasn't accounted for in this PR), and Flash is 4-1. Flash should really be #1 anyway though, despite JD's WCG win, because of his overall play and the fact that he is on a 14-1 streak.
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Hm...so far, I think...
Flash/JD - Stay the same (or maybe switch positions if Flash loses to Yarnc) Calm - Dive, dive, dive! Stork - Go up to 3rd (if he plays well enough in the rest of his games this month) Bisu - Maybe down a spot or so... Fantasy - Up 1 or 2 spots Effort - Up 2 or 3 spots Zero - Moved onto the PR Best - Might deserve a PR spot too
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On November 27 2009 00:50 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong's eaten 4 nasty losses in his supposed best MUIs recently, against a few mediocre to bad opponents. I expect he won't pass up Flash who has lost only one game -- which was pretty reasonable.
Depends on if he crushes Arnc, though, to prove his TvZ is still on the fast track to Oov in domination level. Flash should remain # 1 unless he fails in both PL and his MSL group which is highly unlikely . Other then that Effort and Zero should rise and Calm decline .
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Stork should be #3 if he beats his MBC game and OSL game. That'd make him undefeated for the month and on an 11 game win streak -- the best of his career.
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Norway1530 Posts
Flash with the same vZ ELO peak as Boxer atm!
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
On November 27 2009 01:48 Hinanawi wrote: Hm...so far, I think...
Flash/JD - Stay the same (or maybe switch positions if Flash loses to Yarnc) Calm - Dive, dive, dive! Stork - Go up to 3rd (if he plays well enough in the rest of his games this month) Bisu - Maybe down a spot or so... Fantasy - Up 1 or 2 spots Effort - Up 2 or 3 spots Zero - Moved onto the PR Best - Might deserve a PR spot too looks about right to me, would add some Sea here and there though!
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Lol why Bisu down? Oo'
And agreed Best is aiming for top10 for sure :D
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On November 27 2009 05:10 Salteador Neo wrote: Lol why Bisu down? Oo'
And agreed Best is aiming for top10 for sure :D
Have you seen his PvZ games lately? They were horrible.
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If Stork wins in his group, he deserves the number two position.
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On November 27 2009 06:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If Stork wins in his group, he deserves the number two position.
Certainly as long as Flash, Jaedong and Stork continue to not fuck up, they will form the top 3 in some order.
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The problem with moving Bisu down is that there's not many people that you can reasonably move above him.
Effort should replace Calm's position in the top 5.
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Stork is on a killer streak.
I'd put him above JD even considering the WCG loss.
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Zero, Sea and Best should make it in, IMO.
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On November 27 2009 09:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Stork is on a killer streak.
I'd put him above JD even considering the WCG loss.
I'm just not quite seeing it. How can you justify Stork over Jaedong? Can you explain this a little to clear it up? They both look terrific in their games, and as you mentioned, Jaedong beat him in a BO3.
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On November 27 2009 11:19 LucasWoJ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2009 09:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Stork is on a killer streak.
I'd put him above JD even considering the WCG loss. I'm just not quite seeing it. How can you justify Stork over Jaedong? Can you explain this a little to clear it up? They both look terrific in their games, and as you mentioned, Jaedong beat him in a BO3. While he did win at WCG, its not like a normal match that matters. Clearly the Koreans don`t care that much about it, last year they where drinking the night before the finals etc. So I don`t know how much we should put into these event wins, I mean they probably don`t even practice for it and just wing it along the way.
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On November 27 2009 11:19 LucasWoJ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2009 09:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Stork is on a killer streak.
I'd put him above JD even considering the WCG loss. I'm just not quite seeing it. How can you justify Stork over Jaedong? Can you explain this a little to clear it up? They both look terrific in their games, and as you mentioned, Jaedong beat him in a BO3. Jaedong did beat him in a bo3 but stork has the better current record.
Jaedong is 7 - 3 last 10 matches while stork is 9 - 1.
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Well, the PR only accounts for last month's games, where Jaedong is 5-1 and Stork is 4-0, and considering that Jaedong beat Stork in a Bo3. Even if it did not matter, it still provides a good tiebreak considering how close the two are otherwise, but Stork still has PL and OSL left, so we'll see.
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On November 27 2009 14:34 TwoStep wrote: Well, the PR only accounts for last month's games. Someone clear this one up for me: Is this or is this not true? Sure the PR is released monthly, but that doesn't mean it has to limit its scope to the last month of gaming. In fact, historically strong players are often given the benefit of the doubt even when they haven't done much in the last month.
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Ahhh, you're right. The first focus is on last month's games, but top players, and I mean really good players, get some leniency as all factors are considered. But in the end, it's really up to the writer's preferences. Riptide is more slanted toward name recognition than JWD, who was mostly based on performance.
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there's no hard and fast rule... its really up to the discretion of the PR writer.
You can talk about it, and argue about it, but at the end of the day, the PR stands.
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On November 27 2009 14:34 TwoStep wrote: Well, the PR only accounts for last month's games, where Jaedong is 5-1 and Stork is 4-0, and considering that Jaedong beat Stork in a Bo3. Even if it did not matter, it still provides a good tiebreak considering how close the two are otherwise, but Stork still has PL and OSL left, so we'll see. yo stop smoking weed. stork is 9 - 1 in october.
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I think you misunderstood him. By "last month" he means "This last month's games," for which Stork is 4-0.
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Stork is playing like he wants his rightful #2 spot on the PR...and everywhere else. :p.
On November 27 2009 11:19 LucasWoJ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2009 09:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Stork is on a killer streak.
I'd put him above JD even considering the WCG loss. I'm just not quite seeing it. How can you justify Stork over Jaedong? Can you explain this a little to clear it up? They both look terrific in their games, and as you mentioned, Jaedong beat him in a BO3.
Jaedong vs Stork was REALLY close. And showed almost even skills. It wasn't some one-sided affair. But Stork has otherwise performed flawlessly for a while now. Whereas Jaedong has had bumps on the road.
Besides, Stork #2 is just the way things should work.
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Sea should make it in : 9 win - 1 lose in proleague.
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The way I see it, Flash and Stork are the best players in the world right now. I don't neccessarily think it would be wrong to still have JD above Stork considering the fact that he won their Bo3, but I just feel that Stork is overall stronger at the moment. 10 game winning streak FTW!
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On November 27 2009 21:05 Holgerius wrote: The way I see it, Flash and Stork are the best players in the world right now. I don't neccessarily think it would be wrong to still have JD above Stork considering the fact that he won their Bo3, but I just feel that Stork is overall stronger at the moment. 10 game winning streak FTW!
Well Jaedong hasn't played much games against terrans so is hard to say . He is unbeatable against protoss , his ZvZ has been shaky and his ZvT hasn't been tested with only a rape against Miracle .
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
can't imagine Stork being more skilled than JD, maybe it's my fanboyism getting in the way of seeing things objectively.
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On November 27 2009 21:59 pripple wrote: can't imagine Stork being more skilled than JD, maybe it's my fanboyism getting in the way of seeing things objectively.
he isn't, JD will soon have more golds than Stork has silvers :p
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On November 27 2009 22:10 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2009 21:59 pripple wrote: can't imagine Stork being more skilled than JD, maybe it's my fanboyism getting in the way of seeing things objectively. he isn't, JD will soon have more golds than Stork has silvers :p
According to TLPD, Jaedong currently already has 8 golds to Stork's 7 silvers... of course those aren't all "major" leagues but still.
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On November 28 2009 00:23 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2009 22:10 SuperArc wrote:On November 27 2009 21:59 pripple wrote: can't imagine Stork being more skilled than JD, maybe it's my fanboyism getting in the way of seeing things objectively. he isn't, JD will soon have more golds than Stork has silvers :p According to TLPD, Jaedong currently already has 8 golds to Stork's 7 silvers... of course those aren't all "major" leagues but still.
Jaedong has more major league golds than Stork has major league silvers, too...
Gold GSL1 > Silver GSI Gold 3 OSL/1 MSL/(1 WCG) >= Silver 1 MSL/2 OSL/(2 WCG)
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Doesn't matter if jaedong has more major league golds than stork has in silver.
PR is more of like how well players are doing currently than how they did before, or else nada would be #1 every single time with like 6 golds and like gazillion silver. flash #1 stork #2 JD #3
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im a rabid bisu fanboy and even i think he doesnt deserve top5 this month so sad
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On November 28 2009 02:43 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 00:23 Musoeun wrote:On November 27 2009 22:10 SuperArc wrote:On November 27 2009 21:59 pripple wrote: can't imagine Stork being more skilled than JD, maybe it's my fanboyism getting in the way of seeing things objectively. he isn't, JD will soon have more golds than Stork has silvers :p According to TLPD, Jaedong currently already has 8 golds to Stork's 7 silvers... of course those aren't all "major" leagues but still. Jaedong has more major league golds than Stork has major league silvers, too... Gold GSL1 > Silver GSI Gold 3 OSL/1 MSL/(1 WCG) >= Silver 2 MSL/1 OSL/(2 WCG)
Stork has 2 OSL silvers (Vs Flash at Bacchus and Jaedong at Ever 07) and one MSL silver (vs Bisu at GomTV season 2 MSL). >:[
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I have absolutely no intention of arguing that Stork is a better SC player than JD if we look at the big picture (the only one able to put up a fight in such a discussion would be Flash IMO). But I do indeed think Stork has looked hotter recently.
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On November 28 2009 03:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 02:43 Djabanete wrote:On November 28 2009 00:23 Musoeun wrote:On November 27 2009 22:10 SuperArc wrote:On November 27 2009 21:59 pripple wrote: can't imagine Stork being more skilled than JD, maybe it's my fanboyism getting in the way of seeing things objectively. he isn't, JD will soon have more golds than Stork has silvers :p According to TLPD, Jaedong currently already has 8 golds to Stork's 7 silvers... of course those aren't all "major" leagues but still. Jaedong has more major league golds than Stork has major league silvers, too... Gold GSL1 > Silver GSI Gold 3 OSL/1 MSL/(1 WCG) >= Silver 2 MSL/1 OSL/(2 WCG) Stork has 2 OSL Golds (Vs Flash at Bacchus and Jaedong at Ever 07) and one MSL silver (vs Bisu at GomTV season 2 MSL). >:[
I assume you mean 2 OSL silvers, and yeah, I goofed.
And in response to someone else, I wasn't trying to use medal count as an argument applicable to the PR. I was just responding to an off-topic train of thought and I'll shut up now.
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Stork and Flash should take some combination of 1 and 2. if it were up to me, I would put Stork at number one. Flash's TvP is great but questionable to some extent, while Stork looks incredible in all 3 matchups.
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I'd like to see Movie somewhere in the ranks.
Top should be like... Either Stork or Flash, then Jaedong. I don't think Bisu should move up or down, so I'm not sure why people think he should go down. I mean, he lost to Shine, but him losing to Shine was the reason he dropped to #5 in the first place. Other than that, he has only lost 1 game since, so I don't see any reason to drop him further.
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It's hard to make a theoretical "How would Flash fare against Jaedong?" scenario when Flash just rolls over every Zerg he plays against in under 10 minutes.
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On November 28 2009 14:29 Hinanawi wrote: It's hard to make a theoretical "How would Flash fare against Jaedong?" scenario when Flash just rolls over every Zerg he plays against in under 10 minutes. True. Stop being so fucking good, Flash. In a way it's disappointing that he's raping so hard, I would love to see him in a longer TvZ.
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On November 28 2009 11:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Stork and Flash should take some combination of 1 and 2. if it were up to me, I would put Stork at number one. Flash's TvP is great but questionable to some extent, while Stork looks incredible in all 3 matchups.
I'm sure they will just wait until the 2nd so it can be settled in the clearest way possible.
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On November 28 2009 14:29 Hinanawi wrote: It's hard to make a theoretical "How would Flash fare against Jaedong?" scenario when Flash just rolls over every Zerg he plays against in under 10 minutes.
+ Show Spoiler [KT vs hite spoiler] +So true --- I was looking forward to Flash vs Yarnc and the whole thing was over in the blink of an eye. The kid's really going back to his roots.
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last season, he just kept on getting raped by 2 hatch builds, and now, he rolls 2 hatch builds
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Flash 15-1 since the start of the new season :D Edit: Also now ahead of JD in ELO Peak and 2 points away from surpassing Bisu
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If he manages to revamp his TvP he will be truly unstoppable. That's why I am really looking to his game vs Stork. Too bad it is on Heartbreak Ridge which is really gay map for TvP...
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Ehem, I would like to propose that Calm be lowered for next month's PR. Thank you.
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On November 28 2009 15:37 Avidkeystamper wrote: Ehem, I would like to propose that Calm be lowered for next month's PR. Thank you. Fuck yeah. That last game against Fantasy was extremely horrible.
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On November 28 2009 11:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Stork and Flash should take some combination of 1 and 2. if it were up to me, I would put Stork at number one. Flash's TvP is great but questionable to some extent, while Stork looks incredible in all 3 matchups.
The only reason I would mind Stork being #1 on the PR is that Stork can only be #1 once. He was #1 in WCG once, #1 in OSL once, and #1 in PR once!
WE CAN'T HAVE IT AGAIN
He can be second plenty of times though!
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yeah stork should never be above #2, it's the rulez
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And this is why Flash is #1 and JD is #2 and Stork will not go further than #3. (MSL)
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
MSL spoiler; + Show Spoiler +Ye after todays MSL i don't have to see Stork above JD! ;p
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Amazingly prescient by riptide to keep JD at number 2 hats off.
Right now I'd have to go with: 1. Flash (1 win away from Top ELO ever) 2. JD 3. Zero 4. Bisu 5. Effort 6. Stork 7. Fantasy 8. Sea 9. Violet 10. Best
Although after top 2 it gets really hard.
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lol are you dumb why the hell should JD be #2? Hes done mediocrely since the PR...
zero and and stork should def be ahead of him, maybe even bisu.
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On November 29 2009 02:14 yhnmk wrote: lol are you dumb why the hell should JD be #2? Hes done mediocrely since the PR...
zero and and stork should def be ahead of him, maybe even bisu. I like your well structured and informed post. I especially like the way you back up claims with reasons and arguments. Why don't you make some more of them?
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On November 29 2009 02:14 yhnmk wrote: lol are you dumb why the hell should JD be #2? Hes done mediocrely since the PR...
zero and and stork should def be ahead of him, maybe even bisu.
I know right?
I mean Jaedong is so pathetic that his only accomplishments this month are going 5-1 vs mediocre opposition, I mean how dare he drop a game. Not to mention the fact that he also beat 2 mediocre tosses in his way to win WCG, I mean how dare he make it look so hard in the final game and how dare he drop a single game to that toss in that set. ofc all the people on TL are dumb and JD should be put in CNBC
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Flash #1, JD #2, the rest is pretty tough to arrange...
lol are you dumb why the hell should JD be #2? Hes done mediocrely since the PR...
WCG might not matter as much as starleagues/PL, but it's still something. Something he stomped Bisu and Stork in.
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Yeah this is a pretty hard PR. Everyone who isn't Flash and Jaedong on the current list seems to have dropped a league so far and most have performed so so in proleague.
Edit -- except for Effort, but his MSL Group is a long ways away on top of him dropping his first OSL game to a very intelligent Shine.
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Russian Federation405 Posts
On November 29 2009 02:59 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 02:14 yhnmk wrote: lol are you dumb why the hell should JD be #2? Hes done mediocrely since the PR...
zero and and stork should def be ahead of him, maybe even bisu. I know right? I mean Jaedong is so pathetic that his only accomplishments this month are going 5-1 vs mediocre opposition, I mean how dare he drop a game. Not to mention the fact that he also beat 2 mediocre tosses in his way to win WCG, I mean how dare he make it look so hard in the final game and how dare he drop a single game to that toss in that set. ofc all the people on TL are dumb and JD should be put in CNBC Yes, yes! Especially this:ofc all the people on TL are dumb and JD should be put in CNBC JD’s wins over Bisu and Storks are nothing and JD should be put in CNBC.
Hot Flash must be on #1 and on #2 — he hasn’t so weak opponents this month — and JD should be put in CNBC!
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On November 29 2009 03:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yeah this is a pretty hard PR. Everyone who isn't Flash and Jaedong on the current list seems to have dropped a league so far and most have performed so so in proleague.
Edit -- except for Effort, but his MSL Group is a long ways away on top of him dropping his first OSL game to a very intelligent Shine.
Zero is favorite to go out to the ro8 of OSL 3-0 or 2-1 if he drops a game to Yarnc(if you watched any of his last 5 rapes vs Pure you will know Pure stands no chance) and is still in both leagues and he is tied for first with Flash in PL.
Imo 1)Flash 2)JD 3)Stork Despite today 4)Zero
after this its kind of weird to place anyone, but here are some candidates Kwanro Fantasy Bisu Effort Best Sea
its a toss up. I think Zero/Hwasin/Flash/JD are the only 4 remaining in both leagues
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On November 29 2009 03:54 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 03:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yeah this is a pretty hard PR. Everyone who isn't Flash and Jaedong on the current list seems to have dropped a league so far and most have performed so so in proleague.
Edit -- except for Effort, but his MSL Group is a long ways away on top of him dropping his first OSL game to a very intelligent Shine. Zero is favorite to go out to the ro8 of OSL 3-0 or 2-1 if he drops a game to Yarnc(if you watched any of his last 5 rapes vs Pure you will know Pure stands no chance) and is still in both leagues and he is tied for first with Flash in PL. Imo 1)Flash 2)JD 3)Stork Despite today 4)Zero after this its kind of weird to place anyone, but here are some candidates Kwanro Fantasy Bisu Effort Best Sea its a toss up. I think Zero/Hwasin/Flash/JD are the only 4 remaining in both leagues
Effort too
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There's a lot of good posts here (and some bad as always).
Definitely based off of last months PR this is how I think it should shape up.
1) Flash - 5-1 (Loss to Best) Prev: 1 -- Another solid month, nobody did enough to unseat Flash so he hangs onto #1 for this month. 2) Jaedong - 5-1 (Loss to Saint) Prev: 2 -- Great month from JD, 5-1 (against weaker competition than Flash) and won WCG. WCG isn't the most prestigious so it's not enough to unseat Flash, particularly with how Flash played last month as well. 3) Stork - 5-2 (Losses to Movie and Canata) Prev: 4 -- Stork had a great month and even getting knocked from one league he moves up to take over for Calm's meltdown. 4) Effort 7-2 (Losses to Great and Shine) Prev: 7 -- Impressive month for Effort slides him up a few places here. 5) Zero 8-1 (Loss to Effort) Prev: NR -- Jumping in at number 5 is about as high as I can see Zero move here. He had a terrific month but it's putting the cart before the horse to move him higher right now. Another excellent month from him next month and you can see him crack top 3 maybe. 6) Bisu 3-1 (Loss to Luxury) Prev: 5 -- Bisu dropping is less about Bisu's play and more about the excellent play of Effort/Zero here. Bisu is #2 in ELO and has won his games this month with solid play next month you'll see him creep back up. 7) Fantasy 4-2 (Losses to Flash and Calm) Prev: 6 -- Not great not bad. The loss of TvF is quite forgivable but the loss against Calm is not good. Calm had a meltdown this month going 2-6. 8) Best 6-1 (Loss to Roro, ignoring MSL prematches) Prev: NR -- Best beat Flash and has been doing well lately, I'm happy that Best is looking strong again. 9) Sea 6-1 (Loss to Really) Prev: NR -- Solid month here jumps Sea back into things. 10) Calm 2-6 Prev:3 -- What a horrible month here for Calm he slides WAY down for this.
CBNC: Violet 4-0 Prev: NR -- Violet was impressive in the games he played this month and has established himself as a good KT player. Being out of Individuals is excusable just as it is for Sea. I really want to slide him above Calm but Calm was previously ranked 3rd.
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On November 29 2009 03:54 samachking wrote: its a toss up. I think Zero/Hwasin/Flash/JD are the only 4 remaining in both leagues
Kwanroll is still in both leagues too.
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id like to see anytime hit the top ten, hes been looking very good in pvz and pvp games hes had recently, if he keeps showing results seeing him back in the top ten would be sick!
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Wishful thinking but he is kind of 3-7 in his last 10, and even his wins were mediocre play. Wait for him to get out of airforce and return to his old amazing self like when he was on Oz and maybe he'll make that top 10 berth.
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I thought Anytime went into the Air Force as a prelude to quitting progaming. I would be fine with being wrong, but I thought there was an interview about him wanting to quit.
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On November 29 2009 09:20 Jaksiel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 03:54 samachking wrote: its a toss up. I think Zero/Hwasin/Flash/JD are the only 4 remaining in both leagues Kwanroll is still in both leagues too.
Effort isn't in both leagues ?
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Shine should so definitly get at least 7th position.
He beat Effort in a beautiful ZvZ where neither really had a BO advantage. Of course, he did lose on PL yesterday, but he is still a very underrated player IMO.
My view of next PR: 1. Flash (I'd want to place Flash in rank #1, #2 and #3. He's been so fucking dominant lately) 2. Zero (Damn scary how he's steamrolling thru every1) 3. Jaedong/Stork 4. Stork/Jaedong 5. Bisu 6. Fantasy 7. Effort/Shine 8. Shine/Effort 9. Calm (slumping, but is still borderline S-class imo) 10. Violet (he's got the most wins in proleague as protoss, and the only one to do so without a single loss so far)
CNBC: Sea[shield]: rolling thru proleague, but plays only TvT Movie: Hard time deciding whether to put violet or movie in 10th place for me
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On November 29 2009 18:58 win8282 wrote: Shine should so definitly get at least 7th position.
He beat Effort in a beautiful ZvZ where neither really had a BO advantage. Of course, he did lose on PL yesterday, but he is still a very underrated player IMO.
My view of next PR: 1. Flash (I'd want to place Flash in rank #1, #2 and #3. He's been so fucking dominant lately) 2. Zero (Damn scary how he's steamrolling thru every1) 3. Jaedong/Stork 4. Stork/Jaedong 5. Bisu 6. Fantasy 7. Effort/Shine 8. Shine/Effort 9. Calm (slumping, but is still borderline S-class imo) 10. Violet (he's got the most wins in proleague as protoss, and the only one to do so without a single loss so far)
CNBC: Sea[shield]: rolling thru proleague, but plays only TvT Movie: Hard time deciding whether to put violet or movie in 10th place for me
Did you remember last time Zero was put above JD? And I see no reason JD should lose #2. He had a very good month. And Effort is still in both leagues so he should be above Bisu/fantasy. Problem with Violet and Sea is they only play in PL, of course they'll be tearing it apart. While Violet can practice a whole week for one/two PL games, Calm has to prepare for PL, MSL and OSL.
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On November 29 2009 17:24 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 09:20 Jaksiel wrote:On November 29 2009 03:54 samachking wrote: its a toss up. I think Zero/Hwasin/Flash/JD are the only 4 remaining in both leagues Kwanroll is still in both leagues too. Effort isn't in both leagues ?
OSL Group C and MSL Group H.
He is down one game in his OSL Group but still completely capable of qualifying.
On November 29 2009 19:04 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 18:58 win8282 wrote: Shine should so definitly get at least 7th position.
He beat Effort in a beautiful ZvZ where neither really had a BO advantage. Of course, he did lose on PL yesterday, but he is still a very underrated player IMO.
My view of next PR: 1. Flash (I'd want to place Flash in rank #1, #2 and #3. He's been so fucking dominant lately) 2. Zero (Damn scary how he's steamrolling thru every1) 3. Jaedong/Stork 4. Stork/Jaedong 5. Bisu 6. Fantasy 7. Effort/Shine 8. Shine/Effort 9. Calm (slumping, but is still borderline S-class imo) 10. Violet (he's got the most wins in proleague as protoss, and the only one to do so without a single loss so far)
CNBC: Sea[shield]: rolling thru proleague, but plays only TvT Movie: Hard time deciding whether to put violet or movie in 10th place for me Did you remember last time Zero was put above JD? And I see no reason JD should lose #2. He had a very good month. And Effort is still in both leagues so he should be above Bisu/fantasy. Problem with Violet and Sea is they only play in PL, of course they'll be tearing it apart. While Violet can practice a whole week for one/two PL games, Calm has to prepare for PL, MSL and OSL.
On the other hand, Violet WON his ace game.
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I wouldn't put Zero above JD yet either and I might be Zero's biggest fan. The list of Zero's wins this month isn't all that impressive. However, the key thing I take away is that he's no longer losing to players he shouldn't lose to. In the past part of his problem was that he could randomly drop games to people way beneath his skill level, and that hasn't happened in a while.
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From not rated last month to 2nd is not reasonable. Unless the guy won the OSL/MSL when he was previously unranked I can't see anyone making a move like that. Recall what happened with Hyuk (a good month then faded). It's my belief that except for spectacular circumstances people can't jump straight up to such a high rank.
But that's just my personal preference with ranking, I like to reserve the top slots for people who have been playing solid for more than a single month.
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I wouldn't put ZerO too high, but a middle ranking isn't unreasonable because unlike with Hyuk, he's already proven to be a good player (sometimes).
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My list-
1. Flash 2. Jaedong 3. Stork (MSL Group E) 4. ZerO 5. fantasy 6. Bisu 7. Movie 8. EffOrt 9. Calm 10. Violet
ZerO is playing really really really well and deserves a top 5 spot. Calm should drop like a rock imo
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On November 30 2009 05:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:My list- 1. Flash 2. Jaedong 3. Stork (MSL Group E ) 4. ZerO 5. fantasy 6. Bisu 7. Movie 8. EffOrt 9. Calm 10. Violet ZerO is playing really really really well and deserves a top 5 spot. Calm should drop like a rock imo
why Effort so low? He DID beat Zero in a very important match between CJ/Stars.
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On November 30 2009 05:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:My list- 1. Flash 2. Jaedong 3. Stork (MSL Group E ) 4. ZerO 5. fantasy 6. Bisu 7. Movie 8. EffOrt 9. Calm 10. Violet ZerO is playing really really really well and deserves a top 5 spot. Calm should drop like a rock imo
This would be my list, except with Jaedong and Stork switched.
JD should have dropped to at least 3rd last month, but he wasn't because of previous performances. He was good this month, but not #2 PR good... and it's not like last month didn't happen.
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Jaedong is the world champion (or the closest there is to such a thing). That ought to count for something.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
#1. Flash - Our reigning #1 has had another stellar month. In fact, with Flash just 2 points below the peak ELO of all time, this choice is easy. Flash has been utterly dominant in TvT, overcoming seemingly large disadvantages to pull through. His TvZ has been perhaps even more amazing, considering the ease at which he has conquered a long string of strong zergs. Flash is looking unstoppable.* *Oh, except for that little MU called "TvP"..... Perhaps the biggest story of this starleague season will be to what extent Flash's signature match-up is vulnerable. Our only point of reference is a loss to BeSt, who's PvT has always been his best MU. It's too small a sample size to draw conclusions from, but if Flash is concerned, so is TL.
#2. Jaedong - It's been a pretty uninspiring month for Jaedong. He polished off five weaker players as he should've and lost to Saint, who is terrible. That said, he's also a World Champion, having defeated challengers ranging from the famed Azeri Tribe to Stork in the finals. It's a little unclear what to make of JD's month, he's yet to be seriously challenged, and his ZvZ still raises questions. But he's looked better than he did during his October implosion, and so there's no reason to bump him from his spot.
#3. EffOrt - EffOrt has been incredibly impressive in the last month. His ZvP looks untouchable - since April, TLPD counts 16 wins for the messiahlisk against only 3 losses. Equally impressive has been his ZvT, exhibiting clever strategy and multi-task against Light and stunning starsense against Frozean. But then there's the matter of EffOrt's ZvZ which, similar to Jaedong's has looked uncharacteristically shaky. The ultimate indignity was a loss to Shine in which the Upset Zerg turns the two base spore defense against it's most famous practitioner. This loss puts EffOrt in real danger in his OSL group. The next week will be crunch time for EffOrt's starleague hopes.
#4. ZerO - The Stars ace has gone from zero to hero in one stunning month. With only a loss to EffOrt, and two ACE victories, ZerO has looked very very impressive, even while not playing particularly pretty games. In fact, it's gutsy games like his OSL win against Hwasin that have been the norm in ZerO's November. But wins are wins, and in between dominating Round 1 of proleague, and staying confidently afloat in both leagues, there's no reason why anyone should be overlooking ZerO right now.
#5. Stork - Stork by all rights was headed to the second spot on the PR after an impressive month of beat-downs on strong opponents. Then he dropped his MSL group 0-2, and TL was left wondering what went wrong. Nonetheless, Stork has looked quite good this month. Highlights include impressive wins against type-b and Kal and a run to the WCG finals, where he lost (not without a fight) to Jaedong. Not only that, but Stork's most recent photoshoot has gained him quite a few new fans. His MSL failures nonwithstanding, the Bird Toss is in solid shape in the OSL, and seems better poised for Round 2 of PL.
#6. fantasy - The SKT1 terran might as well have a new nickname - the human maphack. In his recent stretch of games against Clam *cough* Calm, fantasy has displayed a kind of crazy starsense that won him their OSL match-up, and somehow failed to win him their first proleague match-up, but was impressive anyway. But fantasy also showed a trait that has not been seen with him recently- tenacity. In his ACE match victory, fantasy slowly turned around a huge disadvantage with a little help from Clam's wayward overlords, a few hero marines and the can of bear semen he was sipping during the match. What is perhaps more important to take from this, is that fantasy's bio TvZ is something the terrorist feels comfortable employing, and has obviously improved a great deal. This is not good news for the swarm.
#7. Bisu - Bisu hasn't really done anything wrong this month, but he hasn't really done enough either, and that's allowed a bunch of players to pass him. That said, Bisu has gotten his share of PvZ practice, resulting in a fantastically entertaining match with by.hero. While he'll need his other two (very strong looking) match-ups to move on in the MSL, an improved PvZ will bode well for the revolutionist in the later stages of that starleague.
#8. Sea - With that pesky business of losing in both starleagues over with, TL's favorite progamer can concentrate on what means the most: dominating proleague. The big surprise this time is that the rest of MBC has come around to dominate along with him, but that won't last. But what might last is Sea's TvT, which is looking as strong as anyone's. Well, almost everyone. If Flash plays Sea, both players will have impressive TvT records at stake. Sea's other match-ups? Who cares?
#9. Really - *slow, nervous footsteps* Uh... hello? Anyone here? This is Park Sang Woo... I'm 6-2 in the last month, and I was the last terran to out TvT Sea... Anybody there? Does anyone care? I know you dropped me like a hot potato from your anti-team, but I guess you never checked up on how I was doing... Well if you're interested, I'm doing just fine... Yep!... Doing fine... TvP and TvT looking really good...yep... uh... Guess I'll go back to playing starcraft now. Just wanted to stop by and give you an update... No problem, take care! I'll put your mail on the table... *receding footsteps, sound of a door closing*
#10. BeSt - Wait who? BeSt??? Yes, BeSt is playing good starcraft again. He's the only person this month to defeat the reigning #1, and the first player to make the round of 16 in the MSL. Most recently Best is riding a four game winning streak, looking like his normal self in PvT, and putting out quite a few impressive PvZ victories as well. BeSt has had just the month he needed to get back into the swing of things.
CNBC - Movie - Violet - Pj - Calm
NCNC - Clam
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Really is neck-and-neck with Light for the title of "Best Terran nobody gives a shit about for mysterious reasons"
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No Starleague presence (as in, they don't create upsets, go really deep, newcomers, etc. Not that they don't make 'em.
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On November 30 2009 07:46 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Really is neck-and-neck with Light for the title of "Best Terran nobody gives a shit about for mysterious reasons"
People should care more about UpMaGiC as well imo
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No way on fucking earth should EffOrt be ahead of Stork
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On November 30 2009 07:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote: No way on fucking earth should EffOrt be ahead of Stork
I totally agree, but you put him up at #8 (which would be him dropping a spot since last month...)
That's as crazy as Effort>Stork
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
hehe i like your PR tree.hugger, you guys are right about Really nobody ever notices him. quite harsh to drop Calm straight to CBNC but maybe he deserves it :o
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 30 2009 07:46 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Really is neck-and-neck with Light for the title of "Best Terran nobody gives a shit about for mysterious reasons" That's because Really is really mediocre =/
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 30 2009 08:48 pripple wrote: hehe i like your PR tree.hugger, you guys are right about Really nobody ever notices him. quite harsh to drop Calm straight to CBNC but maybe he deserves it :o
The man (or his impostor, depending on who you believe) went 2-6 this month. He's been total garbage.
On November 30 2009 07:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote: No way on fucking earth should EffOrt be ahead of Stork
Why though? Both have played some good people, both have about the same record, but Stork lost his MSL group 0-2. It really wasn't even as though he had the group of death, he lost to a decent terran, and a decent protoss. That said, with the ranking that I put up, 3-5 are very close. I switched them around a bit. EffOrt is still in his leagues though (tenuously in the OSL, of course), won the head-to-head against ZerO, and has played quite well. ZerO has been playing awesome, and is in good position in the OSL. That left Stork who's OSL loss kinda shattered the aura he had been putting together recently.
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On November 30 2009 07:01 okum wrote: Jaedong is the world champion (or the closest there is to such a thing). That ought to count for something. Didn't count for shit when Luxury won it last year. But yeah, I would say it should count in some extent given that his competition was Bisu and Stork.
Also let's not forget that Flash beat Fantasy 2:0 in the Asian Indoor Games or sth like that. If WCG counts then this should also.
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On November 30 2009 09:27 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 07:46 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Really is neck-and-neck with Light for the title of "Best Terran nobody gives a shit about for mysterious reasons" That's because Really is really mediocre =/
Really has this problem where he can play with the best in the world about 70% of the time even if he doesn't win, but the other 30% he plays like an ass. And he never, ever, ever gets anything done in Starleagues. He's like the budget version of Sea.
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lol.. budget version of sea..
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On November 30 2009 10:27 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 08:48 pripple wrote: hehe i like your PR tree.hugger, you guys are right about Really nobody ever notices him. quite harsh to drop Calm straight to CBNC but maybe he deserves it :o The man (or his impostor, depending on who you believe) went 2-6 this month. He's been total garbage. Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 07:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote: No way on fucking earth should EffOrt be ahead of Stork Why though? Both have played some good people, both have about the same record, but Stork lost his MSL group 0-2. It really wasn't even as though he had the group of death, he lost to a decent terran, and a decent protoss. That said, with the ranking that I put up, 3-5 are very close. I switched them around a bit. EffOrt is still in his leagues though (tenuously in the OSL, of course), won the head-to-head against ZerO, and has played quite well. ZerO has been playing awesome, and is in good position in the OSL. That left Stork who's OSL loss kinda shattered the aura he had been putting together recently.
ZerO's ZvZ is his worst matchup, Stork didn't lose in the OSL, EffOrt lost his game in the OSL. Stork has been playing better in Proleague and is one of the only protoss players doing well against zergs besides Movie.
Stork lost to Canata on a map that really favors terrans and didn't play badly against Movie. He made one simple mistake and lost. The same reason EffOrt lost to Shine.
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On November 30 2009 10:27 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 08:48 pripple wrote: hehe i like your PR tree.hugger, you guys are right about Really nobody ever notices him. quite harsh to drop Calm straight to CBNC but maybe he deserves it :o The man (or his impostor, depending on who you believe) went 2-6 this month. He's been total garbage. Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 07:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote: No way on fucking earth should EffOrt be ahead of Stork Why though? Both have played some good people, both have about the same record, but Stork lost his MSL group 0-2. It really wasn't even as though he had the group of death, he lost to a decent terran, and a decent protoss. That said, with the ranking that I put up, 3-5 are very close. I switched them around a bit. EffOrt is still in his leagues though (tenuously in the OSL, of course), won the head-to-head against ZerO, and has played quite well. ZerO has been playing awesome, and is in good position in the OSL. That left Stork who's OSL loss kinda shattered the aura he had been putting together recently. effort hasn't done anything huge as of now, his only individual league game he loses
and looking at how protoss are struggling because of match up imbalances and map imbas, stork is doing really really well
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Just when I thought JD would lose his #2 spot to Stork after all, Stork disappoints too lol.
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I really feel that JD should drop to 3.
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On November 30 2009 20:15 Orbifold wrote: I really feel that JD should drop to 3.
I'd agree if his losses were ZvPs or ZvTs, but they are ZvZs.
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On November 30 2009 20:22 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 20:15 Orbifold wrote: I really feel that JD should drop to 3. I'd agree if his losses were ZvPs or ZvTs, but they are ZvZs.
If ZvZs are such a crap shoot, then I am sure you didn't give him credit in the past for an 80% win rate in the MU because it is just a crap shoot after all.
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On November 30 2009 20:22 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 20:15 Orbifold wrote: I really feel that JD should drop to 3. I'd agree if his losses were ZvPs or ZvTs, but they are ZvZs. Yes, clearly if he loses in a matchup people used to praise him for, so much so that they even dubbed it as its own matchup (JvZ), it shouldn't matter. Mirrors might as well not even exist. Therefore, Flash's TvT win streak shouldn't matter either, right? I mean, if that was a TvZ or TvP win streak, it might mean something. </sarcasm>
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lolol snap Stork from 10-0 to 0-4, this is one streaky game I suppose
this reminds me of that time when Flash went from 12-0 to 0-4 within a span of 3 days
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On November 30 2009 21:00 samachking wrote: JD redeemed himself #2
Yep, JD didnt choke while Stork did. Savior is 2-1 this month! =)
poor riptide, Stork failed tonight so did Effort. Finding #3 will be damn hard.
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On November 30 2009 21:07 SuperArc wrote:Yep, JD didnt choke while Stork did. Savior is 2-1 this month! =) poor riptide, Stork failed tonight so did Effort. Finding #3 will be damn hard.
losing to JD is not failing + he played a good game vs Perfectman
Zero/Effort for #3
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Flash and JD are No1 and 2. After that I have absolutely no clue at all.
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On November 30 2009 21:15 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 21:07 SuperArc wrote:On November 30 2009 21:00 samachking wrote: JD redeemed himself #2 Yep, JD didnt choke while Stork did. Savior is 2-1 this month! =) poor riptide, Stork failed tonight so did Effort. Finding #3 will be damn hard. losing to JD is not failing + he played a good game vs Perfectman Zero/Effort for #3
Yeah sorry I didn't mean fail, I meant lost (his third loss this month).
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Russian Federation405 Posts
JD’s overall JvZ record: 152 games — 114 wins — 38 losses (75%) [75%—it’s JvZ MU]
Flash’s overall TvT record: 119 games — 85 wins — 34 losses (71.4%) [it’s exellent but itsn’t 75% MU]
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And when in SC terms anything over 65% is dominance in a MU - unreal.
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On November 30 2009 20:31 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 20:22 SuperArc wrote:On November 30 2009 20:15 Orbifold wrote: I really feel that JD should drop to 3. I'd agree if his losses were ZvPs or ZvTs, but they are ZvZs. Yes, clearly if he loses in a matchup people used to praise him for, so much so that they even dubbed it as its own matchup (JvZ), it shouldn't matter. Mirrors might as well not even exist. Therefore, Flash's TvT win streak shouldn't matter either, right? I mean, if that was a TvZ or TvP win streak, it might mean something. </sarcasm> I know you're being sarcastic but have you seen Flash's TvZ win streak?
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United States10328 Posts
flash jaedong effort? zero? stork?
:/ sighhh stork STOP LOSINGGG
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On November 30 2009 21:30 nonduc wrote: JD’s overall JvZ record: 152 games — 114 wins — 38 losses (75%) [75%—it’s JvZ MU]
Flash’s overall TvT record: 119 games — 85 wins — 34 losses (71.4%) [it’s exellent but itsn’t 75% MU]
On November 30 2009 21:59 Musoeun wrote: And when in SC terms anything over 65% is dominance in a MU - unreal. Not the point: no one is arguing that historically, Jaedong's ZvZ was amazing, to the point where it still lifts up his overall record, but when a man who was 80% in a match-up goes 56.25% in that match-up over the last 5 months, it's safe to say that his dominance in that match-up has slipped. Jaedong is still great, but "JvZ" is an outdated term.
By contrast, Flash's recent record in TvT is a ridiculous 94.12% over the last six months (17 games, excluding two showmatches that he lost to Sea and Leta). (Jaedong's ZvZ record over that time period is 60.53%). For that matter, Flash's TvZ in the same time period is a ridiculous 81.48%. In short, in terms of current form, Jaedong's dominance of these match-ups does not even approach Flash's.
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Russian Federation405 Posts
It’s "funny statistics" with all of "excludings". :D
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There's one pair of games in one match-up that is excluded--the showmatches--and that wasn't my idea: games like that are not counted in Kespa's statistics, nor in the ones given by TLPD (at the top of the page). There's some logic to that--if you count meaningless games, why not count practice games? Of course, we don't have any way of doing that.
In any case, if you want to count them, go ahead--I can see the argument for counting them too. Even then, Flash's recent record in his mirror match-up (a mere 84%) would still be much, much better than JD's over the same period. Count the games or don't, but don't seize on them as a pretext to dismiss the facts as "funny statistics".
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Russian Federation405 Posts
Your "idea" of excudings is out of logic: The STX Masters was KeSPA sanctioned. And Ultimate Proleague Championship was sanctioned by KeSPA too. But GOM Classic 3 wasn’t — but you count wins and loss in it. If you start to count games — count them all; if they were games between progamers in Korean or in International tournament.
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On December 01 2009 07:22 nonduc wrote:Your "idea" of excudings is out of logic: The STX Masters was KeSPA sanctioned. And Ultimate Proleague Championship was sanctioned by KeSPA too. But GOM Classic 3 wasn’t — but you count wins and loss in it. If you start to count games — count them all; if they were games between progamers in Korean or in International tournament. If you actually clicked on the link in my post and looked at the TLPD page there, you would see that it wasn't "my idea" to exclude those matches, but it's not worth debating this. As I already said, even if you count these games, my point will not be altered: Flash's record in mirror match-ups (or vZ match-ups) over the last half a year is much, much better than Jaedong's over that same period of time.
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