We have a choice with week two of the sandlot. If we choose a replacement, we could have sea.lionking. However, I am realistic. We trail FF 1-4 to 4-1. That means that even if FiFo goes 5/10 for the rest of the tourny, we have to win 9/10 to advance to the finals. This is not even considering the other teams.
The player with the most wins on each team gets 1k. I want to see this money go to a TL member, or Fantasy (who has been so very very manner). If we played only those people, we could ensure one of them will get the cash.
If you have any other suggestions for our week two strategy, post them here. I will entertain all options and opinions.
What if that's true? Is he definitely gone no-matter-what? Is this even our decision, or is it entirely up to Blizzard?
Suddenly this Kosiro situation makes me very sad.
[Edit]I found your post (didn't think to read through the 10 pages first)...
Blizzard has more or less left it up to the team captain to decide the outcome. But what is for sure is that kosiro is gone. We have a choice of replacing him, or continuing on with 7 players. I will make the decision tonight after I talk to some people, but I already know what I think is the right course of action.
I don't think it's fair that I vote, since I don't know a whole lot about the events that occurred, the situation, or the players involved. I think that if you've got a plan, you should stick to it. You've taken us this far, and I think I speak for everyone at TL.Net when I say that we trust your judgement, and that of all of the other admins taking care of us. You know what to do.
What if that's true? Is he definitely gone no-matter-what? Is this even our decision, or is it entirely up to Blizzard?
Suddenly this Kosiro situation makes me very sad.
Read through the rest of it, especially the post by draco...It looks pretty unlikely right now.
...I say Yosh. Lionking might be the better player, but I would like it better if the team was close knit and I have no idea how seriously lionking would take it.
neSix, I say thanks for the vote of confidence. I do indeed have an idea, but as I was reminded in the past few days, sometimes it is important to take stock of how everyone else is thinking before coming to a conclusion. That is why this thread is open season for anyone who has suggestions.
I say go with what we have or choose yosh, Lets trying to keep this as tl.net as possible. Bcuz its obvious what happens when you leave it in the hands of others. Very bm kosiro (Not even considering if it is true, bcuz it obviously is ;p)
On September 24 2006 20:58 Peyong wrote: I say go with what we have or choose yosh, Lets trying to keep this as tl.net as possible. Bcuz its obvious what happens when you leave it in the hands of others. Very bm kosiro (Not even considering if it is true, bcuz it obviously is ;p)
by.fantasy ftw ~!
Might I remind you that fisheye didn't even attempt to play AT ALL.
It goes without saying that I trust your judgement on this issue regardless of whether it's in line with my opinion or not because you're more informed and in the thick of it than anyone else, Mani.
But since you want opinions, I think we should just continue with 7.
It's enough players to continue, and they are all hand chosen for TL. I don't have anything against any of the replacement players mentioned, but I don't think it's necessary to replace either.
As long as we always have all 7 at our disposal, there will never be a need for more players, so I think we should just play it out.
I'd like to say before I state my opinion that I have the utmost confidence in you and think you've done a great job thus far (considering the circumstances). Personally I would just remain at seven. The entire time TL.net has taken the high ground, and I think this is yet another chance to do so. Not that I think it would be wrong to take a replacement, but just that this team was chosen this way (more or less, because of freddy's situation...but in the end we got naz which is even better for tl.net really) because it was the best that could be chosen with the position and rules given. Going on with seven cements the fact that you chose correctly (with the information you had) and that you're willing to stay the course the whole way. Just my opinion, you know what you want to do better than I.
That said, in a way I agree with fakesteve. If you don't choose one of them it would probably be a disappointment to them and I don't think anyone could fault you for choosing either. I'd definitely go with the seven already chosen, but I can certainly understand picking up one of the other guys too. Personally, I'd go with yosh since he's more TL than lionking but that's just me.
I think the point is that the team doesn't want the scandal. Even if it's proven that he didn't get someone else to play for him (which is pretty damned impossible at this point, I think) why should mani and the rest of the site/team have to put up with that drama? He made a mistake regardless, and he handled it in the worst possible way. I'm all for giving people another chance, but in this case he pretty much has to be removed from the team for its own good.
And today, Polaris[ArnC] from team PGR, who is a friend of Kosiro, saw the post and replied:
"Hello, I'm Polaris I want to talk about the Kosiro issue a little bit.
After I saw the TLvsFIFO result post, I rushed to him asap to ask, and show him the news, since I know him personally. As I was assuming, he didn't know about it at all and was completely suprised by it. And he asked me to post the real circumstances for him here:
Kosiro said that he was actually preparing for the Sandlot match.
On that day he was in a very bad shape because of the aforementioned Pentech meeting after PL, but he didn't dare to fail the tournament so he went to a nearest internet cafe in the middle of the meeting for the games. But the settings in that place was really horrible, so after game 1 he decided to move to Pentech headquarters.
So he played then HIMSELF game 2 and 3 there, and he went all-in strategies in both games because of his low shape. And won both.
To the suspicion that the replay analysers claimed firefist to have played instead, he replied that he unquestionably played the game himself, and replay shall be analysed as much as needed.
He did his usual in that game, so everything shall be the same and he's innocent.When the final result of replay analysis says forfeit, he will accept it to get kicked out of the tournament.
I(Polaris) have personally varying APM's between 270 and 450 depending on my shape. APM shouldn't be the mesure since progamers have varying APM's too quite often.
We both feel sorry for the issue, and Kosiro said he was aiming to achieve good results so he practiced the non-pro maps quite a lot. And he absolutely couldn't do anything about the scandle.
He further asked to consider that he tried his best actually although he was in a real bad shape.
He've heard about getting kicked out of team TL, but he will give his best for the team victory when he's allowed again to play the tournament.
I(Polaris) really hope this post gets through to TL master, and he feels regrets for the unlucky circumstances.
I know him quite well personally, he is a very nice boy and well-mannered gamer. I really hope that TL shows understanding and Kosiro does well again."
He added his email adress p.s. but I think he doesn't speak eng so I excluded. You can ask me or go to the link or just use this forum.
On September 24 2006 22:53 OneOther wrote: [[From pgr]]
안녕하세요 Hello Kosiro 라는 아이디를 쓰는 이재억 이라고 합니다. I am Lee Je Uk aka Kosiro 여기에 저에 관련된 글을 보다가, 글을 남기게 되었습니다. I saw posts regarding what happened so I decided to go ahead and write one.. 직접 아이디를 만들어서, 글을 올리려 했으나, 새로 만든 아이디는 글쓰기가 안되더군요,, 그래서 아이디를 잠시 빌렸습니다. I am using Polaris' ID because making a new ID would not let me post. 우선.. 상황부터 말씀드리자면, 대회전 갑작스레 개인적인 일이 생겨서 대회를 피시방에 가서 하게되었습니다. 컨디션도 매우 나쁜상태였구요 하지만 전 그래도 이길려구 생각많이했습니다. 일딴 컨디션이 안좋기 때문에 3판2승제 였는데 모든게임 올인으로 게임 시작하기도 전에 생각했구요. 모든겜 10분도 안됩니다.
First of all, to explain what happened, I suddenly had a personal problem so I was forced to play at a PC Cafe. I was in a bad contiion also but I wanted to win really bad. But since it was Best Out Of 3 Match I decided to go all-in in all of them - not one of them lasts more than 10 minutes. 피시방에서 1차전을 하게되었습니다. 그러다 졌구요, 셋팅상태가 좋지 않아 근처에 숙소로 자리를 옴기고자, 양해를 구하려고 그때의 제 상황을 말씀드렸구요.. 하지만 그게 제 뜻과는 다른 정보로 사람들귀에 들어간거 같아 개인적으로 많이 안타깝습니다. I played the first game at the Cafe, and I lost. I disliked the setting so I asked pardon so I could go back to my practice room...and I am disappointed people were misinformed of what really happened during that period of time.
제가 소속된 TL팀에서 이 일로 저를 제외한다 해도 저는 전혀 상관이 없구요, 다만 저는 좋은취지로 열리는 대회라, 최근에 준비중인 대회도 없고해서 많이 준비하였습니다. 참 의도와는 다르게 불미스러운 일로 번지고 말았네요 정말 죄송합니다. 상대선수 Draco 선수께도 죄송하구요, 한국에 계시니 다음에 볼수 있을것입니다. 그때 불쾌했다면 사과하면 되는것이구요,, 이 pgr 이란곳에 글을 첨 쓰는데, 몇줄 안되는 글쓰는데도 참 힘드네요 ㅜㅜ It won't matter that much to me if TL.Net excludes me from the team because of what happened, but since this tournmanet was a important/fun one and I did not have any other upcoming ones, I practiced a lot for them. I am really sorry for all the unexpected trouble I caused. I apologize to my opponent Draco for what happened, especially considering I will meet him sometime soon since he is in Korea.
[[SKIPPED THE USELESS PARAGRAPH]]
정말 대회가 성공적으로 치뤄졌으면 좋겠구, TL팀의 우승을 바랍니다. 불미스러운 일이 발생하게 되어 다시한번 사과의 뜻을 전합니다. 죄송합니다 새로운형식의 대회라 많이 기대하고 준비했는데 이젠, 어렵게 새로운팀에 들어와 소속팀에 누가 되지 않을까 많이 걱정되네요 ㅜ ㅜ I sincerely hope this tournament goes well, and I wish the best and victory for teamliquid.net I apologize again for the unexpected mess. I am sorry. It was a new and creative style of tournament so I was excited and prepared for it. It worries me that I harmed the team instead...
On September 24 2006 22:53 OneOther wrote: [[From pgr]]
안녕하세요 Hello Kosiro 라는 아이디를 쓰는 이재억 이라고 합니다. I am Lee Je Uk aka Kosiro 여기에 저에 관련된 글을 보다가, 글을 남기게 되었습니다. I saw posts regarding what happened so I decided to go ahead and write one.. 직접 아이디를 만들어서, 글을 올리려 했으나, 새로 만든 아이디는 글쓰기가 안되더군요,, 그래서 아이디를 잠시 빌렸습니다. I am using Polaris' ID because making a new ID would not let me post. 우선.. 상황부터 말씀드리자면, 대회전 갑작스레 개인적인 일이 생겨서 대회를 피시방에 가서 하게되었습니다. 컨디션도 매우 나쁜상태였구요 하지만 전 그래도 이길려구 생각많이했습니다. 일딴 컨디션이 안좋기 때문에 3판2승제 였는데 모든게임 올인으로 게임 시작하기도 전에 생각했구요. 모든겜 10분도 안됩니다.
First of all, to explain what happened, I suddenly had a personal problem so I was forced to play at a PC Cafe. I was in a bad contiion also but I wanted to win really bad. But since it was Best Out Of 3 Match I decided to go all-in in all of them - not one of them lasts more than 10 minutes. 피시방에서 1차전을 하게되었습니다. 그러다 졌구요, 셋팅상태가 좋지 않아 근처에 숙소로 자리를 옴기고자, 양해를 구하려고 그때의 제 상황을 말씀드렸구요.. 하지만 그게 제 뜻과는 다른 정보로 사람들귀에 들어간거 같아 개인적으로 많이 안타깝습니다. I played the first game at the Cafe, and I lost. I disliked the setting so I asked pardon so I could go back to my practice room...and I am disappointed people were misinformed of what really happened during that period of time.
제가 소속된 TL팀에서 이 일로 저를 제외한다 해도 저는 전혀 상관이 없구요, 다만 저는 좋은취지로 열리는 대회라, 최근에 준비중인 대회도 없고해서 많이 준비하였습니다. 참 의도와는 다르게 불미스러운 일로 번지고 말았네요 정말 죄송합니다. 상대선수 Draco 선수께도 죄송하구요, 한국에 계시니 다음에 볼수 있을것입니다. 그때 불쾌했다면 사과하면 되는것이구요,, 이 pgr 이란곳에 글을 첨 쓰는데, 몇줄 안되는 글쓰는데도 참 힘드네요 ㅜㅜ It won't matter that much to me if TL.Net excludes me from the team because of what happened, but since this tournmanet was a important/fun one and I did not have any other upcoming ones, I practiced a lot for them. I am really sorry for all the unexpected trouble I caused. I apologize to my opponent Draco for what happened, especially considering I will meet him sometime soon since he is in Korea.
[[SKIPPED THE USELESS PARAGRAPH]]
정말 대회가 성공적으로 치뤄졌으면 좋겠구, TL팀의 우승을 바랍니다. 불미스러운 일이 발생하게 되어 다시한번 사과의 뜻을 전합니다. 죄송합니다 새로운형식의 대회라 많이 기대하고 준비했는데 이젠, 어렵게 새로운팀에 들어와 소속팀에 누가 되지 않을까 많이 걱정되네요 ㅜ ㅜ I sincerely hope this tournament goes well, and I wish the best and victory for teamliquid.net I apologize again for the unexpected mess. I am sorry. It was a new and creative style of tournament so I was excited and prepared for it. It worries me that I harmed the team instead...
if this is true, i think he should continue. !@#$ Draco
I really hope to see Lionking join the ranks of Teamliquid.net. It's not just that this brings a talented Korean closer to this site, but it's also just a question of what people would rather see. Personally, I would rather see a very impressive display of skill in a tournament such as this, and Lionking would be most likely to give us that.
While I understand the sentiment of letting TL.net members fight for the money, this is really a decision between wanting to do as well as you can in a competition and helping out some friends. The question is whether TL.net have either the responsibility or desire to do as well as they can. In the beginning TL.net didn't just choose TL.net members as I would have thought. It would have been fun, but TL.net went for the strongest team instead. Granted, the situation is different now as the final seems far away, but TL.net still have the possiblity not to finish last and actually do well.
Returning legends such as ret and Nazgul (who I don't know of personally) sounds exciting, but I find it more likely that Lionking will perform, and don't put as much trust in anyone on the team but Lx, Fantasy and FA to do so.
Also, people, I would like to remind you that in the relevant thread Manifesto just said he talked to Pantech and Blizzard who confirmed Kosiro was guilty, so someone must have confessed. This thing is over with, unfortunately, we cannot have him back.
one thing to add to the case about sticking to 7 players... i think it's the manner thing to do.
you could look at taking lionking as being unfair, because other teams might've drafted him first if they knew he was available. having naz as our captain play i think is fine though.
I think if TL want to have a great shot at this tournament i would get Lionking as the repalcement. You simply cant afford to lose a top player like Kosiro and think u going to do MORE then fine in this kind of tournament with these kind of players imo.
This is just staggeringly disappointing. We have to win 9/10 and FiFo has to be held to 5/10 to win? There's simply no chance of that happening. I just have to ask why this tournament is so poorly structured; it's really striking that one ill circumstance in one match (going 4-1) means you are out of the tournament no matter what. That's just silly.
I definitely think we should take LionKing. Even if we can't win, we should give the other teams a run for their money, and picking anyone yosh over lionking would be an indication that we have resigned ourselves to being uncompetitive. Let's just try to generate the best games possible with the best players possible, and show what could have been if we had gotten a fair lot.
We've been screwed the whole way: Logo contest, Other teams getting free players when they spent their minerals, Fisheye being so expensive and such a triumphant waste, this massive kosiro bungle that cost us the tournament.... We could never have won with so much force against us, but at least we can show them that we can win matches. Let's take LK, win the next two matches and claim ourselves a nice fat moral victory.
bine, that the tournament is like that doesn't make it badly structured. Blizzard prefer to have one final to end it instead of dragging it along with semi-finals. Seems fair with so few teams participating. There is still the 1.000$ to fight about for the players, even if they know they cannot reach the final.
Four teams are competing for a spot, and obviously if you lose big time to one of the other three, you aren't likely to get to the final. Now, if Teamliquid had only lost 2-3, it would have looked somewhat better. There would still be three matches to get 15 points, whereas pgr21 couldn't get more than ten in those three matches if Teamliquid were to qualify. Most likely, TL.net won't win their next three matches 5-0, so, maybe if TL.net got 11 points, pgr21 could only get six points. That would be three 2-3 defeats, which wouldn't be impossible with this level of competitions.
Yeah, by losing a player like this, TL.net really deserve the right to a replacement. As long as the replacement isn't considered vastly better, I don't see it as that big a problem for the other teams. Funy how TL.net would be the ones to do it twice, though. Is iloveyouk being replaced for Broodwar.de? (He has connection problems, so he's out of tournament apparantly). I see that Jang played against Testie, but I cannot remember if he was in it from the start.
jang and ilovekh were both in bw.de from the beginning (jang was their first draft pick) ilovekh had lag problems so jang was substituted for him in this match, he just wasnt in the lineup for the match from the start.
any chance of getting a regame w/ draco? I am starting to feel more and more like this isn't our fault at all, and that the auto-loss is a bit unfair. no one told kosiro to cheat, and we have no real affiliation with him. so why are we losing the tournament over it? 2-3 would be MUCH better for us than 1-4.
The best decision in terms of winning would be to take lionking.
Personally, I think it would be cool to see Yosh playing for TLnet . Our team is already mostly forum members, which is really neat.
Of course, the players who should have the most say in this decision should be the team members themselves. After all, they are the ones who could potentially earn over $1000 each (I think?) if things go well.
I say go with lionking. It's not that much money on the line for the liquid players, and I think they'd be equally happy knowing we tried our hardest to get a good result despite the bad start.
Yeah, Yosh playing for tl.net would be pretty cool, and Lionking would probably be the best if we wanted to win. However, as things stand, it seems unlikely that tl.net will be able to win anyways. So I think we would be better off going with Yosh.
Either way, I think tl.net should choose another player, instead of just sticking with just 7, unless if I'm missing something. What would be the point of just using the original 7? Choosing another player gives another person a chance to shine and compete for money.
Lionking is a very good player, am sure he has played and done well in the courage tournies, so if I was in Mani's shoes then would go him.
Unsure how much match practise Yosh has had lately, as he has been inactive for the good part of 3 years? Would be nice to see his famous mech terran vs zerg again though.
Did Blizzard put forward these 2 choices? Would be nice to see Blackjack in this representing TL.net