I wanted to make a map named Cloud Kindgom from... let me count... four years now. My decoration inspiration comes from Total Annihilation's planet Temblor (amazing game if the pathing wouldn't be shitty). I started my preliminary works of this maps three months ago, it took me a very long time to find the good 3rd/4th transition as well as the middle. My goal with this map is area control. To do so, i used tiny chokes mixed with very large areas which are next to expands. I also wanted the players to think about their attack angles, the longer path you take, the better position for your army to attack. The direct path has four 3-sized ramps partially blocked with rocks to make them 1-size in the early and midgame. The rocks are necessary to make army movement better in the late stages of the game.
They key of this map are flanks, if you engage an army straight, you will probably lose the battle. So please, don't 1a here, it won't work. However the middle of the map might be too tight for zerg against protoss, so i'm thinking about making the center ramps bigger and put long diagonal rocks to make the area wider.
Map explanation: Circle = defender's army cross = attacker's army lines = army movement to defend and the width of the choke to defend Army position after taking the natural + Show Spoiler +
Second choice The light blue shows how well is the main protected from drops. + Show Spoiler +
Army position after taking the fifth This is what i love, while having your army in front of the middle ramp, you can defend your 4th and 5th moving accordingly to the opponent and thus you can defend you entire base but there is still a threat of counter attacks from the corner expand. + Show Spoiler +
Map informations:
Main to main distance: 58 seconds (with probe) Natural to natural distance: 35 seconds Overlord distance to overlord spot: 3:28 (First marine out at 3:10)
Map size: 126*132
Textures:
Lighting: Aiur (Modified) 1.4 Exposure instead of 1.2
"Main to main distance: 58 seconds (with probe) Natural to natural distance: 35 seconds" Are you sure those numbers are correct? Nat to nat does not seem that short.
This is straight up the best aesthetics of any map I've seen in this game...the 'atmosphere' feels a little uncomfortable to play on at first but that doesn't take long to get used to. I can't really comment on balance too much but there's no glaring flaws in that regard. Really hope we get to see this on ladder/in tournaments.
Love this map btw, LOTS of different expansion/army position possibilities.
I wanted to offer another possibility for a 4th expansion (perhaps for a Zerg to take against a terran or protoss. With my own *snazzy* drawing! I'm no pro or anything, so I can't guarantee that this actually makes sense, but it did come to mind when I looked at your map. + Show Spoiler +
I look forward to hearing what you guys think!
EDIT: Also just thought that Muta harass would become effective after an opponent takes a third base because the minerals in the main and third are very close together.
i love the color theme of the map, really unique and cool. Haven't seen or played the map enough so far to comment on anything balance wise (which is a good thing i guess). Its pretty drop save thats all i found out, which i like.
On November 17 2011 22:07 Hassybaby wrote: Do you guys have a website with a set of guides for map making? Every time I want to make a map, I get scared because it looks so complicating
Make them really simple but big first. As time goes on and you get feedback, you will learn about the correct sizes and preferrable layouts.
On November 17 2011 22:07 Hassybaby wrote: Do you guys have a website with a set of guides for map making? Every time I want to make a map, I get scared because it looks so complicating
Just open up a few ladder maps and use them as your guidelines.
Whoever helped you test out the placement of the watch towers should be awarded IMHO
Such a unique and well-thought map from an excellent map-maker that has been around for a long time now. Expect nothing less from SUPEROUMAN and the ESV team. Definitely one of my favorite maps.
I thought about this placement after i came back home that night ^^ This way, the map split isn't from natural to natural and make the corner expands not behind every other expand and thus, less protected.
Actually this map probably won't win because it's too much like a combination Typhon Peaks and Dual Site. But I still think it's better than both.
Also, would you be inclined to make a flipped ground level version? All high ground becomes low and vise versa? The reason being, is the middle of the map (map control) is already a great thing in itself. If you make it low ground though then it becomes a little less powerful and requires more map control around that area.
While i agree that it would be good to reverse the terrain in the middle, it would be bad to do so for the area near the nat and the 3rd, it removes the defender's advantage. I prefer to let players defend well against all-ins and strong timing pushes and then fight for the control of the middle than giving the attacker the advantage at the beginning of the game.
Map updated with better lightings, fixed the brightness of the decals especially on low graphics. Also moved the expand near the natural closer to the edge, it's less on the path now.
The paint art symbolize the previous expand placement.
New update with better lightings again but i think this time it's done well once for all. I removed the doodads creating two chokes in front of the 4th, i should have removed them from the beginning. I saw too many zergs lose against protoss armies in that place.
I'm curious as to whether this map is terran favoured or not, I think I heard someone say it was. The reason I say this is because the center area seems extremely contentious in the late game since its all high-ground and you can fire down on the 4th and 5th with siege tanks.
On December 19 2011 16:42 XenoX101 wrote: I'm curious as to whether this map is terran favoured or not, I think I heard someone say it was. The reason I say this is because the center area seems extremely contentious in the late game since its all high-ground and you can fire down on the 4th and 5th with siege tanks.
Though keep in mind it's also harder to drop, especially the main, and that saves a lot of worry
Well Superouman, i'm a member of TPW but still i really like (spelled love) your map. I hope that Blizzard is intelligent enough to include at least one of those awesome TLMC maps (and i don't care which one - saw your map played in some sick games by Jinro really made me loving your 1v1 map style so ... ^^).
AoL is a test for the regular season in terms of this map perhaps? So happy to see a foreign community map making its way into GSL, once in GSL the rest will follow
I played today two matches at this map. It doesn't look fight-friendly for zerg. very small places for a fight at natural and/or 3rd base. Let's see at King of Kong Tournament, how this map works
Really nice map. Played it yesterday and it was really well designed and balanced ... And big bonus too is that it is 1v1 map, which is pretty rare in current maps played
Map balance and layout seems really awesome. Though we did get some negative feedback on the looks of this map, too much fog/blur and annoying light effects were the things we heard most (making it harder to follow the action). It's been in the Playhem map pool for about a week now.
I like the map structure but the blur thing needs to go. It's way to annoying and hard on the eyes and I have seen some good players not give the map a chance before calling it shit because of this, and that is unfortunate.
And it looks even worse when it's broadcasted on stream and the stream use ultra settings ingame which adds even more blur and glowing effects.
Hum I've been lazy and haven't updated the tlmc version to the latest lightings. That should be fixed now (on all servers) let SUPER know if there are still blurry issues with tlmc version.
Spread your creep like never before. LosirA completely mandhandled MKP because the creep spread was past like half the map and MKP couldn't do anything :[
Spread your creep like never before. LosirA completely mandhandled MKP because the creep spread was past like half the map and MKP couldn't do anything :[
I updated the map after some feedback i received from people watching GSL (I missed it, FML) The clouds are bad for viewers watching low quality streams so i removed all the ones which are not near edge cliffs. Also reduced the bloom a little bit as well as some cliffs which were not symetrical for reaper jumps (even if they are not often played)
Cloud Kingdom has some characteristics that made crossfire a good map, which can also be found on many other good maps. You may get the feeling that this map is similar to crossfire because they are both 2 player map and have same spawn position.
Theres a slight imbalance i found in the map, on the left base natural, you can wall off a passage between the wall and gas geyser with a 2x2 building (depot/pylon) but on the right side base it takes a 3x3 (rax, gate, evo)
This might be important for zerg users trying to zone off hellions or non-zerg users blocking off a little bit of ling runby space.
On January 03 2012 10:04 Warpath wrote: Theres a slight imbalance i found in the map, on the left base natural, you can wall off a passage between the wall and gas geyser with a 2x2 building (depot/pylon) but on the right side base it takes a 3x3 (rax, gate, evo)
This might be important for zerg users trying to zone off hellions or non-zerg users blocking off a little bit of ling runby space.
On January 03 2012 10:04 Warpath wrote: Theres a slight imbalance i found in the map, on the left base natural, you can wall off a passage between the wall and gas geyser with a 2x2 building (depot/pylon) but on the right side base it takes a 3x3 (rax, gate, evo)
This might be important for zerg users trying to zone off hellions or non-zerg users blocking off a little bit of ling runby space.
On January 03 2012 11:42 Superouman wrote: Holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii-, i can't believe i didn't see that blunder, it's going to be fixed now. I'm terribly sorry.
Well, at least now we know you're mortal. Thanks for reducing the fog, too, that will be nice. The updated version will be played in GSL immediately, right?
I just wanted to leave feedback here for this map, this is one of my favorite maps, it is awesomely designed imo I may be biased because it feels really good for a mech style into later stages of the game
But just felt really nice regardless of style, fluid expansion taking, lots of terrain to use/abuse/take advantage of, I actually picked this to play on in some of my bo3s in tournaments GJ
I missed AOL King of Kongs, how did this map perform? I'll tell you this though, I haven't played on it yet, but it's fucking beautiful. Belshir Beach looking maps got nothing on Cloud Kingdom, it's just a pleasure to look at.
On January 09 2012 10:27 deadmau wrote: First stop, GSL...next Blizzard ladder?! One can only dream!!
It won TLMC so it has a pretty damn good shot at getting into the ladder pool and if GSL Code A+S isn't the nail in the coffin there, I don't know what is
We've been using this map for about 2 weeks now in Playhem Daily tournaments. I think I've cast about 20-25 games on it and there are a few things I feel like giving some feedback on, so here they are:
PvZ: I feel like it's very easy for protoss players to get good engagements on this map because of the amount of ramps present, 2 or 3 forcefields are enough to block one off and get a great engage. Even when out of position as a toss player (middle of the map) it's just a few seconds to get back to the nearest ramp and have a fantastic engagement.
Other than that, the third is pretty much impossible for zerg to defend. When you look at the map right now you might be like: Well Lyrlian. there's quite a bit of space at the third, and a nice way to flank around. While that is true right now, it doesn't work that well anymore when you plant down the third (smaller choke since the hatch helps creating the choke point). When a zerg has a third and a protoss goes and attacks it with a gateway/robo army. The choke point between the hatch and the rest of the map can be sealed with 2 forcefields. Visual representation: http://imgur.com/dQnyX
After killing the third there's this sort of hallway leading to the natural, and once again zerg struggle to find good engagements there, a terran sieging his tanks there makes it pretty much impossible to engage, a protoss throws down a few forcefields in the hallway leading to the natural and the zerg can't really engage properly (hard to get a good concave which doesnt get destroyed by 2/3 forcefields.
In general I feel the map is a bit too "tight" in certain spots that I named above.
PvT: Same story in lesser extent. Can be tough for terran to engage with a good concave.
PvP: Same as on all other maps with a ramp.
ZvZ: Same as on all other maps.
ZvT: Can be tough to engage the terran when he gets his army in the hallway from third leading to natural.
Thanks for reading and i'd like to end with saying that the things I am saying here are based on games from Pro zerg Players such as: viOlet, IMhorror, RAGESeala. But also other notable zerg players such as Akki and other top GM EU Zerg players.
SUPEROUMAN was generous enough to allow PeepMode (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226035) to be applied to Cloud Kingdom. It is now published on NA, EU, and SEA.
We've been using this map for about 2 weeks now in Playhem Daily tournaments. I think I've cast about 20-25 games on it and there are a few things I feel like giving some feedback on, so here they are:
PvZ: I feel like it's very easy for protoss players to get good engagements on this map because of the amount of ramps present, 2 or 3 forcefields are enough to block one off and get a great engage. Even when out of position as a toss player (middle of the map) it's just a few seconds to get back to the nearest ramp and have a fantastic engagement.
Other than that, the third is pretty much impossible for zerg to defend. When you look at the map right now you might be like: Well Lyrlian. there's quite a bit of space at the third, and a nice way to flank around. While that is true right now, it doesn't work that well anymore when you plant down the third (smaller choke since the hatch helps creating the choke point). When a zerg has a third and a protoss goes and attacks it with a gateway/robo army. The choke point between the hatch and the rest of the map can be sealed with 2 forcefields. Visual representation: http://imgur.com/dQnyX
After killing the third there's this sort of hallway leading to the natural, and once again zerg struggle to find good engagements there, a terran sieging his tanks there makes it pretty much impossible to engage, a protoss throws down a few forcefields in the hallway leading to the natural and the zerg can't really engage properly (hard to get a good concave which doesnt get destroyed by 2/3 forcefields.
In general I feel the map is a bit too "tight" in certain spots that I named above.
PvT: Same story in lesser extent. Can be tough for terran to engage with a good concave.
PvP: Same as on all other maps with a ramp.
ZvZ: Same as on all other maps.
ZvT: Can be tough to engage the terran when he gets his army in the hallway from third leading to natural.
Thanks for reading and i'd like to end with saying that the things I am saying here are based on games from Pro zerg Players such as: viOlet, IMhorror, RAGESeala. But also other notable zerg players such as Akki and other top GM EU Zerg players.
These are very similar concerns to what I had since I first saw this map. I didn't think a zerg could really compete at a competitive level on this map because of the chokes around the third and also the fourth is very difficult for a zerg player. I didn't really want to voice my concerns because everyone seemed to only show support for everything about this map, but unfortunately I think zergs will always struggle on this map, especially against protoss.
It's still a great map, don't get me wrong. There's a lot of really neat ideas flying around in this map, and in general it is very well designed both layout-wise and aesthetically.
Edit: Also would it be possible to somehow get a drawing or something of how far the xel'naga range extends?
On January 16 2012 11:09 RumbleBadger wrote: Edit: Also would it be possible to somehow get a drawing or something of how far the xel'naga range extends?
On the overview pic, you can see small white triangles which symbolize the tower radius
I think that's one of the toughest things for a tournament to do is to switch up the map mid-season. I suppose it's just some aesthetic changes but all of Ro32 in Code S had to play on the previous foggy version of cloud kingdom, why do the Ro16 players get a non-foggy version. Maybe the reason one of the Ro32 players lost on CK was because he couldn't see his units clearly etc etc etc.
Tbh, it's probably better to use the same version for the whole season unless of course it's something extremely major like some mineral/gas were bugged and you weren't able to mine them. Or some doodads were misplaced to block important areas etc etc.
On January 26 2012 17:24 SidianTheBard wrote: I think that's one of the toughest things for a tournament to do is to switch up the map mid-season. I suppose it's just some aesthetic changes but all of Ro32 in Code S had to play on the previous foggy version of cloud kingdom, why do the Ro16 players get a non-foggy version. Maybe the reason one of the Ro32 players lost on CK was because he couldn't see his units clearly etc etc etc.
Tbh, it's probably better to use the same version for the whole season unless of course it's something extremely major like some mineral/gas were bugged and you weren't able to mine them. Or some doodads were misplaced to block important areas etc etc.
Yes let's not update obvious flaws in maps because it's "mid-season". There is a company that does this with their maps.....
It's named Blizzard....
Edit: Also the fog was a spectator thing, it's not that bad in game but comes through bad on the LQ stream. It's not a player issue.
On January 26 2012 17:30 Diamond wrote: Yes let's not update obvious flaws in maps because it's "mid-season". There is a company that does this with their maps.....
It's named Blizzard....
Hey now, I'm not saying that's right. But thinking of a tournament trying to be "fair" it might be how they are thinking. Plus if the only flaw is it is too foggy, psh, I love the fog.
It is kind of a nuisance that the map makers can't just have the only published version of the map because I sure as hell know that if I'm going to fix some aesthetics in my maps it'll take me 30 seconds to fix it and another 30 seconds to republish it, yet when you've got to send the map file to somebody else so they can publish it it always seems to take days if not weeks. -_-
On January 26 2012 17:50 SidianTheBard wrote: It is kind of a nuisance that the map makers can't just have the only published version of the map because I sure as hell know that if I'm going to fix some aesthetics in my maps it'll take me 30 seconds to fix it and another 30 seconds to republish it, yet when you've got to send the map file to somebody else so they can publish it it always seems to take days if not weeks. -_-
Yes it's very stupid. Only works to make everyone's life harder, but hey tournies need to rape your load screens any chance they get.
I think this map is pretty much unwinnable for zerg, especially vs protoss. the whole map is way too tight and all those ramps make it impossible for zerg to engage. Also there is no airspace arround the mainbase which makes mutalisk play pretty uneffective since u only can harass the third and the natural but always have to go a long way arround.
the third base is easy to defend for protoss because there is only one real path to attack and so also only one path to defend. attacking up a 2 force field ramp is simply not possible while the third for zerg is pretty much undefendable.
vs terran i haven't played this map yet but its quite obvious not a good map for zvt. no space to mutalisk harass and no way to get good engagements once he has a decent position.
im thinking about not playing the playhem daily anymore just because of this map .. its too frustrating to only get the chance to advance if u get a lesser player or a mirror match in the 2nd round. sad story.
remeber crossfire? it didnt even have a free third and was way better for mutalisk and still quite obviously imbalanced because of all the ramps and tight paths. hope this map will disappear in the near future aswell.
crossfire was a very good map for mutalisk, ck isnt as i pointed out. have you ever played that map from a zerg perspective? its just impossible to punish a defensive macro style.
where do you see so much space when i can get hit by a colossus who isnt even up the ramp at my natural when i create a concave
almost all maps have either easy expos and wide open space (ST, taldarim, antiga) or this tight paths and not so easy bases (xelnaga, crossfire). maps that combine both easy to defend expos and a map layout with many ramps and tight paths are just not playable for zerg.
Because of the lack of airspace, there's also no room for medivac drops. Notice that? Even without airspace behind the mains, you can still do great harass with mutas. Check out the area behind the main that can hit both the main and the third. Interesting, isn't it? Did you also notice that pretty much every other map that has an easy to defend third is perfectly fine? Antiga Shipyard, Shakuras, Tal'Darim? And did you know that the map isn't actually tight at all? Do you see that the lowground areas have millions of angles for flanking? Did you check the rush distances? Do you know how many places there are you can counterattack from?
i really wanted to make a purple\pink-ish map. i saw this on youtube and taught. Wow! this map looks very cool. AND THEN WE GOT IT ON LADDER! its one of my favourites now
But the expansions are all hard to defend except natural maybe. it is good for zerg engagements, because it is wide, and you can have infestors on top of the "S" terrains. while your lings and stuff engage from many many angles. i did that once and it was SUPER successfull. Anyways great map design. looking forward to play it on the ladders. Meanwhile i will play it on Customs. Peace
Hey, I'm a mid Masters Protoss and I've played around 50 games on Cloud Kingdom. These are my thoughts on how I think this map should be played in most cases.
Obvious FFE map, plenty of places to sneak out probes and hide pylons if you want to go for a +1 zealot timing. Zerg have to be extremely active with his lings if he wants to be 100% safe. Even so, you can push out with a one or two zealots to make way for your probe(s). Clearing Xel'Naga towers is very important, as it will keep Zerg on his toes as he'll have a harder time spotting any pushes coming, and especially, it can hide your Void Rays and Phoenixes until they arrive at his potential 3rd.
If the Zerg decides to go for an early 3rd, a +1 Zealot/SG timing can be very effective as the distance between natural and 3rd for zerg is quite long, so by the time your timing attack hits, he shouldn't be able to have gotten creep connected between the hatches. This means that it takes ages for his Queens to move between bases, and the funny thing here, is that the air distance between his 3rd and his main is extremely short, so if he brings over a lot of Queens to his third, you might be able to do a lot of damage by quickly swooping into his main.
When you decide to take your 3rd base, I'd really advice leaving a Sentry or two at the ramp by your natural, as it's only 1 FF wide before rocks are destroyed. Meanwhile you should be walling the ramp at your 3rd. I wouldn't invest too much into the wall to the side of your 3rd, unless you are powering up with Gateways anyway. I generally like to just wall off with mostly pylons, as proper scouting should be enough to spot a runby (obs, spotter pylons/probes, hallu).
When it comes to walling at your 4th/5th bases, you should have sufficient means to have almost complete map awareness, so spotting his main army shouldn't be too hard. if you see his army moving, your army will move accordingly. While ling runbys seem like a nice way of harassing, this isn't the only (or even the most effective) way of harassment at this stage of the game. Far more devastating tactics include Muta harass, Roach drops, Baneling drops and burrowed infestors. So I'd rather just plant down pylons and lots of cannons hugging your Nexus, as they deal with all those kinds of harrassment, instead of just ling runbys. If you see his army moving, your army will move accordingly. While ling runbys seem like a nice way of harassing, this isn't the only (or even the most effective) way of harassment at this stage of the game. Far more devastating tactics include Muta harass, Roach drops, Baneling drops and burrowed Infestors. So I'd rather just plant down pylons and lots of cannons hugging your Nexus, as they deal with all those kinds of harrassment (or at the very least buys you time to get some units over there), instead of just ling runbys. Also one HT with high energy at each vulnerable base can be very useful, if you're playing versus a very harass oriented Zerg.
I'd also advice getting the bases that leads to you having to move your army as short distances as possible, and with as few attack routes as possible.
For your own late-game harass, I would definitely recommend DT, as there are so many paths for them to take while going unnoticed (It's not like Shakuras, where a spore in the middle denies any DT tactics unless you use Warp Prism or some hidden pylon shenanigans), and with the distances between bases + multipe options for 4th/5th/6th bases, you can often deny building Hatches and even get away with the DT(s) before Overseers arrives.
General army composition favours Colossus rather than HT, as there are just so many chokes to FF which makes it easy to get into a nice position with your army. The map also discourages Muta play, because of how the first 3 bases are laid out, so Robo should be way safer than templar tech. All the various cliffs also favours Colossus because of their mobility with cliff walking and their huge range. Combined with Blink and Sentries for FF, I think this will be the obvious choice for most Protosses on this map.
Feel free to agree/disagree with me, and add your thoughts to the thread.
This seems like a good map for a 1 Gate expand. I'd advice against Nexus first as you have no reliable ramp(another entrance + rocks) to defend against very early aggression like Marine/SCVs, but most importantly, because the natural is a heaven for Bunker rushes, as there are many good spots for placing the Bunkers where SCVs can keep slipping away, and your Probes will just be moving around trying to hit the SCV. Like for example, dropping down a Bunker between the Vespene Geyser and the close by wall can be pretty effective.
Anyways, not going to go further into that.
As I said, 1 Gate expand seems safe, as there's a ramp where you can FF to buy time for when bio pressure hits, and stim timing pushes can be FFd in the narrow choke at your natural (or at the ramp with the rocks), while you have high ground units to attack for a greater concave. Also, if you have the two Xel'Naga towers they'll give you plenty of time to prepare for any pressure coming at you, as moving across the relatively big map takes quite a while.
Another thing is that gas less expand and 1 Rax expand is very safe because of the narrow entrance to the natural, so Terrans will most likely favour doing that.
After a 1 Gate expand, the safest approach is to get 2 more gates, your Robo and your second gas (unless you took your second gas before the expand, for faster tech).
So now that we have a good opening settled, let's look at possible followups, and things to look out for. I'm assuming by now that you're both on 2 base. Let's start by ruling out threats.
Fast Medivacs? Not very likely, the distance they have to travel is huge, and it doesn't matter if you're on two or three bases, as you have only TWO (!) locations you need to defend, because of the lack of space "outside" the ground of the map. Stalkers (and eventually towards the late game Cannons/HT) behind your minerals at your nat, and at the side with Vespene Geysers in your main OR towards the same direction if you've taken a third, are the only possible routes a Medivac could take. This means that you don't have to worry too much about getting fast Blink. I would still advice to spread pylons around and about as soon as you gain some map control, as dropping will usually occur to some extent in any game. A Medivac flying over a pylon usually results in an Unload, pylon kill, Load up and move back home. I'd say that's worth it.
1-1-1 or variations of it? I think a push like this will be weak on this map as you can delay with stalkers and/or FF in all the chokes going through the middle of the map, and also because you can the layout of the main and natural makes it hard for the Terran to set up a good contain. You have a large high ground where you can snipe Tanks with Immortal and move back and forth with Stalkers if Banshees are trying to be mean. Also, it's laid out so that you most likely won't have any vulnerable buildings within the reach of the Siege Tanks. Not much space for Banshees to harass earlier on, because of the same reasons as I mentioned about fast Medivacs. And for the same reason, Hellion drops are also not very likely.
Fast Ghost? A possibility, yet you should be able to scout it if you have a reasonably fast Robo and Obs. Since you're likely to be relying at least some Sentries (unless you're planning an all-in, you should have about 4), be sure to spread them out if a Bio+Ghost push is coming, as getting those EMPed can be game ending.
Whatever the case, if you see Ghost with your Obs, be sure to plant a Robo Bay for Colo ASAP.
What you'll most likely see on this map, is an in-base 3rd OC from the Terran. Hard to scout before obs, safe to get as he can easily defend most aggression with the narrow choke at his nat. He might decide to keep the OC in his base for a while, depending on what he scouts from you. But as soon as he decides to move it to his third, it'll take almost no time, as the air distance between the main and the 3rd is very short. Be sure to scout for this, as your 3rd timing is heavily dependent on when he decides to take his 3rd.
This is how I imagine most PvT's on this map will look like. After this point, it might vary a lot depending on the different styles of the players.
One thing I'd advice doing if you're both on 2base, you got your Robo up, some sentries at your nat, and your obs is nearing his base, get a Warp Prism. It takes a long time for it to move across the map, yes, but as long as you know if he's moving out you can safely dedicated a few units to some harass. Take your two sentries with the most energy, 1 Zealot and 1 Stalker and fly them across the map. Preferably you should have the Xel'Naga towers, but if not, just fly around, and make sure to watch the entrance of his nat with either your obs or with a probe. If you're able to get into his main with the drop, try to FF in his mineral line and pick off a few SCVs. If you see him push out while you are moving out with your Warp Prism, simply unload the units and run them back, and send the WP to a location not far from his main, where you can warp in Zealots after or during the incoming push if you feel like you can hold it.
What I think is a strong mid-late game composition here, is rather Templar oriented, rather than Colossus oriented, as Vikings can move pretty freely around because of all the cliffs, getting a good wide concave on a Terran army can be very hard, as both of you will have to move through chokes all the time, which will force you to clump up your armies.
I'm not ruling out going Colossus on this map though, all I'm saying is that Vikings over space that isn't ground can be a bit harder to try to Blink snipe than otherwise.
Whatever the case, having complete control over the location of the Terran bio ball is alpha omega on this map. There are so many routes he could be running by, so being prepared for the stim and run in is extremely important.
The reason I prefeer HT on this map, is because the Terran will be moving up and down those ramps/chokes throughout the entire game, and a few well placed Storms can
work as a form of zone control. He can't move Ghosts down, without taking a slight risk. Your army will be sitting nearby to try to pick them off, and if he decides to try to run through a choke, you just have to be reacting fast enough with your Storm and he has to back off, or take a lot of damage.
This can often turn to stalemates and split map situations, after that it just comes down to the skill of each player, how successful each of you are in your harass, and how you decide to engage the inevitable final battle.
I think this is a great map for Zealot runby's so try to do that every so often without overcommitting. And maybe some HT drops when the game progresses to 4+ bases.
The three first bases are fairly easily protected vs drops, but the more spread out the Terran becomes, the easier it is to drop. Especially with that sexy Speed Prism =)
I won't commment much on PvP, as the matchup is fairly undeveloped as of yet. And the games doesn't vary much depending on map, apart from where there is no ramp at your main.
I think the metagame in PvP right now is mostly centered around Robo/Blink, Blink all-in, Phoenix, Robo Expand, and sometimes 3gate vs 3gate which results in both players taking an expansion. 4 gate is pretty much dead vs anyone who does builds that are safe agains them (You should be doing one of those builds!).
I'm undecided as to what is the best approach on this map, but I see a lot of different terrain attributes that could be used to ones favour. Like for instance the high ground in your main is in such a position that you can place units up there that will hit units on the low ground, if they decide to come in for a push. This is in your favour if you decide to take a fast expansion and try to defend it.
On the other hand, the length of the main-to-low-ground cliff is quite large, which can again be abused by anyone going Robo/Blink.
I can see Phoenix being effecive, as they don't rely on space behind mineral lines in the same way Mutas and Banshees do. There's a pretty long rush distance between the two spawn locations, so if you're harassing with Phoenix, you should be able to get home with the Phoenix before the slower ground units knocks at your front door. Also establishing map control with Phoenix might allow you to get up an expansion, some defense at your choke, be it cannons or immortals and you should be relatively safe, depending on the kind of pressure you're facing. Sounds like fun =)
If both players manage to get up their expansions, it's possible we'll see long macro games here, as it's easy to establish a good defensive position, where attacking usually leads to you being in a worse position and eventually a loss.
That's about it for now, it's getting late and I'm really tired. I hope my posts were enlightening for at least some of you =)
Personally I don’t like this style similar to Entombed Valley when the first three bases are clustered together and the expansion flow is more of a “zigzag”. More air space would be good, just a bit around the edges. I guess it’s a good thing than the map has a lot of counter attack options. Oh and I’m not sure but is it even possible to split the map? At first I felt like while taking the 6th you have to spread your army a lot but maybe it’s another good point that it doesn’t promote map splits such as Shattered Temple or Metalopolis…?
This map is too dark for my eyes, does anyone have a fix? I cant seem to see where the highground is and the low ground is without stopping my screen to get a look at it.
On February 17 2012 07:08 Isaac wrote: This map is too dark for my eyes, does anyone have a fix? I cant seem to see where the highground is and the low ground is without stopping my screen to get a look at it.
I think there is a brightness feature.... could be wrong
On February 17 2012 07:08 Isaac wrote: This map is too dark for my eyes, does anyone have a fix? I cant seem to see where the highground is and the low ground is without stopping my screen to get a look at it.
I think there is a brightness feature.... could be wrong
I have to somewhat agree to those who say it's (a tad) to dark - would you change your brightness setting just for one specific map (and end up with other maps looking to bright)?
Haha I too was disapointed with the sharks absence. Also, my computer takes a pretty significant hit to the FPS on this map, and I'm already on all lowest settings -__- I suppose it's just to awesome for meh :D
I play zerg and i was sick to constantly watch protoss 2 base all-ins so i gave an easy 3rd. What surprises me quite a bit is the fact that quite a number of intelligent casters and players think the 3rd is hard to take
On February 21 2012 05:21 Superouman wrote: I play zerg and i was sick to constantly watch protoss 2 base all-ins so i gave an easy 3rd. What surprises me quite a bit is the fact that quite a number of intelligent casters and players think the 3rd is hard to take
i dont want to say its imba or something, but i have a very hard time in zvp on this map. i played mutas almost every game, but they are just not very good on ck, because there is not much space behind the natural and the third is facing the main.
On February 21 2012 07:05 Zeon0 wrote: i dont want to say its imba or something, but i have a very hard time in zvp on this map. i played mutas almost every game, but they are just not very good on ck, because there is not much space behind the natural and the third is facing the main.
Then try not mutas, they are not the only comp that works in ZvP. Map specific strats ftw!
the problem is I had the worst zvp winrate ever, then i tried mutas and i made it work. now there is this map where i cant go mutas and i suck with like every other strat.
but yes, i have to figure something out, relying on a single strat may not be the way to go ^^
I also have a pretty bad winrate in zvp's. Those chokes plus collosi on the Toss' side make it impossible to attack unless you go for more or less all-in with a roach timing push. (Destructible rocks don't even matter) Don't know if I am just too stupid or if P really has a good advantage taking a third with 4 cannons and then just go for an attack while there is no real open area for zerg. I tried to go fast Broodlords in many games, but it didn't go well to be honest.
I don't really like this map. The rocks at the natural ramp make it look like a really bad idea to attack into and I find myself always attacking towards the third even if the third has not been taken. This kinda makes the rush distance a lot longer than what it looks like. Also dont like all those chokes in the middle. At last the good counter paths and the missing air space behind bases make me really hate this map as a terran player.
So about that 70% PvT winrate. Have you looked at why that may be the case? And potentially balancing the map? I understand that Blizz wouldn't take it, but you can do what monitor did with KCTE
On April 28 2012 11:56 DYEAlabaster wrote: So about that 70% PvT winrate. Have you looked at why that may be the case? And potentially balancing the map? I understand that Blizz wouldn't take it, but you can do what monitor did with KCTE
I'd bet it's because of bronze, silver, gold, and plat. Thus, it't not really that big of a deal. At diamond to pro level the map is relatively balanced.
On April 28 2012 11:56 DYEAlabaster wrote: So about that 70% PvT winrate. Have you looked at why that may be the case? And potentially balancing the map? I understand that Blizz wouldn't take it, but you can do what monitor did with KCTE
I'd bet it's because of bronze, silver, gold, and plat. Thus, it't not really that big of a deal. At diamond to pro level the map is relatively balanced.
Statistics to back this up?
How does it make sense that it would be like that for lower leagues?
On April 28 2012 11:56 DYEAlabaster wrote: So about that 70% PvT winrate. Have you looked at why that may be the case? And potentially balancing the map? I understand that Blizz wouldn't take it, but you can do what monitor did with KCTE
I'd bet it's because of bronze, silver, gold, and plat. Thus, it't not really that big of a deal. At diamond to pro level the map is relatively balanced.
Statistics to back this up?
How does it make sense that it would be like that for lower leagues?
Because TLPD gives 44% PvT winratio in pro level, so obviously the huge PvT favor must come from games played at much lower level than pro level like bronze-plat.
On April 28 2012 11:56 DYEAlabaster wrote: So about that 70% PvT winrate. Have you looked at why that may be the case? And potentially balancing the map? I understand that Blizz wouldn't take it, but you can do what monitor did with KCTE
The map promotes lategame, tvp lategame is broken, even more broken when terran players don't micro well. It's fine at high level (tlpd and playhem stats)
On April 28 2012 11:56 DYEAlabaster wrote: So about that 70% PvT winrate. Have you looked at why that may be the case? And potentially balancing the map? I understand that Blizz wouldn't take it, but you can do what monitor did with KCTE
The map promotes lategame, tvp lategame is broken, even more broken when terran players don't micro well. It's fine at high level (tlpd and playhem stats)
Also, people have no idea how to deal with forcefields at a lower level. And this map has some really good forcefield spots because of its tight chokes. And like you said, pros can actually micro, which gets rid of this problem almost entirely.
On April 28 2012 11:56 DYEAlabaster wrote: So about that 70% PvT winrate. Have you looked at why that may be the case? And potentially balancing the map? I understand that Blizz wouldn't take it, but you can do what monitor did with KCTE
The map promotes lategame, tvp lategame is broken, even more broken when terran players don't micro well. It's fine at high level (tlpd and playhem stats)
56% PvT still isn't a good ratio. Do you think this might have anything to do with how hard it is to hold a fourth on this map?
On April 28 2012 11:56 DYEAlabaster wrote: So about that 70% PvT winrate. Have you looked at why that may be the case? And potentially balancing the map? I understand that Blizz wouldn't take it, but you can do what monitor did with KCTE
The map promotes lategame, tvp lategame is broken, even more broken when terran players don't micro well. It's fine at high level (tlpd and playhem stats)
Still it should reflect in other ladder macro maps if there were such a huge problem. I am kinda worried because they cannot keep holding the hand over it with such statestics. They seem to be during this for now (like they have done to metalopolis it seems, still 60+% for Zerg).
But as long as the map stays balanced in tournements i don't see a need for adjustments. Keeping the ladder balance for ladder seems reasonable.
Amazing map. When just look at the preview, it looks like a big snake and a easy map to take the center control. But when I play it on ladder, it's so amazing. I am a zerg, and the map mood kinda matches the color of the creep too!
pretty sure I'm going to veto this map soon.. it's horrible for tvp. Protoss can just skip between the natural and third, and with a cannon or two completely negate drops at the same time. Time has proven this map to be pretty bad, imo :\
Not sure if it was intentional to allow slight vision with gasses to the high ground but you can warp in units with a pylon to the high ground if you gas steal
On July 26 2012 06:49 NemesysTV wrote: Not sure if it was intentional to allow slight vision with gasses to the high ground but you can warp in units with a pylon to the high ground if you gas steal
I don't see that as a problem. Replace the assimilator with a pylon, and you'd be told to scout for a proxy instead of letting it happen to you. You wouldn't even have to scout for a gas steal.
On July 26 2012 06:49 NemesysTV wrote: Not sure if it was intentional to allow slight vision with gasses to the high ground but you can warp in units with a pylon to the high ground if you gas steal
I don't see that as a problem. Replace the assimilator with a pylon, and you'd be told to scout for a proxy instead of letting it happen to you. You wouldn't even have to scout for a gas steal.
Yea but when a Terran is fast expanding off 1 barracks or even CC 1st, unallowing them to take out those assimilators with some stalker pressure should be enough to delay it until warp gate tech is done
On July 26 2012 06:49 NemesysTV wrote: Not sure if it was intentional to allow slight vision with gasses to the high ground but you can warp in units with a pylon to the high ground if you gas steal
I don't see that as a problem. Replace the assimilator with a pylon, and you'd be told to scout for a proxy instead of letting it happen to you. You wouldn't even have to scout for a gas steal.
Yea but when a Terran is fast expanding off 1 barracks or even CC 1st, unallowing them to take out those assimilators with some stalker pressure should be enough to delay it until warp gate tech is done
So greedy builds can be punished?? What is this madness?
On July 26 2012 06:49 NemesysTV wrote: Not sure if it was intentional to allow slight vision with gasses to the high ground but you can warp in units with a pylon to the high ground if you gas steal
I don't see that as a problem. Replace the assimilator with a pylon, and you'd be told to scout for a proxy instead of letting it happen to you. You wouldn't even have to scout for a gas steal.
Yea but when a Terran is fast expanding off 1 barracks or even CC 1st, unallowing them to take out those assimilators with some stalker pressure should be enough to delay it until warp gate tech is done
So greedy builds can be punished?? What is this madness?
Well I wouldn't really consider 1 rax expo greedy but w/e
I don't see that as a big problem anyway, if terran gets his gas stolen while 1 rax expanding he shouldn't know something is up. The guy will probably loose the first time, but it shouldn't happen another time. If the T isn't 1 rax expanding, he just has to take this gas first.
I really wish they would change the textures and doodads of the map so at least something about it is new for next seasons ladder pool. Not to mention I've never been much of a fan of Cloud Kingdom's purple/blue tones in the first place. I think I remember Blizzard saying something about their being possible changes to the maps to make them more balanced, so that might include a make over.
On October 07 2014 13:07 ChopTheHassan wrote: I really wish they would change the textures and doodads of the map so at least something about it is new for next seasons ladder pool. Not to mention I've never been much of a fan of Cloud Kingdom's purple/blue tones in the first place. I think I remember Blizzard saying something about their being possible changes to the maps to make them more balanced, so that might include a make over.
They mentioned minor changes, such as locking spawns on 4-spawn maps. They are re-adding the Space Shark though.
On October 07 2014 13:07 ChopTheHassan wrote: I really wish they would change the textures and doodads of the map so at least something about it is new for next seasons ladder pool. Not to mention I've never been much of a fan of Cloud Kingdom's purple/blue tones in the first place. I think I remember Blizzard saying something about their being possible changes to the maps to make them more balanced, so that might include a make over.
They mentioned minor changes, such as locking spawns on 4-spawn maps. They are re-adding the Space Shark though.
Wouldn't mind them cutting a gap around the main/3rd cliff or changing the main ramp orientation in order to make blink harder, but knowing Blizzard they'd do it badly and I also kind of want to see if terrans can figure out how to defend blink allins on this map so mapmakers can go back to making mains with a high cliff surface area if they want.
edit: oops just accidentally blew my thousandth post on this, yey i'm a corsair or something
On October 07 2014 13:07 ChopTheHassan wrote: I really wish they would change the textures and doodads of the map so at least something about it is new for next seasons ladder pool. Not to mention I've never been much of a fan of Cloud Kingdom's purple/blue tones in the first place. I think I remember Blizzard saying something about their being possible changes to the maps to make them more balanced, so that might include a make over.
The decoration is a matter of personal taste. Some like the actual decoration, some don't. If it changes, some will like the new decoration, some won't. It's neverending.
As for balancing, the map was made for WoL. If the map needs a gap between the main and the path leading to the third, it will make the main smaller (which is already quite tight). To regive the right size to the main, the map needs to be enlarged by 4 or 6 squares (or maybe more depending on the size of the gap) on each side. This will make more air space on the edges.
In the end, the edits would change the map quite a lot. There is no point in making large edits to WoL maps to make them playable for HotS, it's better to make HotS maps from scratch. It's like repairing a ship full of holes with wooden planks, it has its limits.
I think the obvious nature of early Blink rushes on this map would simply alter Terran builds to include a few widow mines to burrow on the edge of their base around when the Protoss should be moving out; considering the buffs vs Shields widow mines received, I would imagine a few shots would be lethal to the critical High-Ground Vision-granting Mothership Core. But who knows, I play zerg :I
The problem with blink on Cloud Kingdom only comes partially from the fact that the protoss can easily blink into the main. The real problem is the rotation time between the main and the natural. A protoss can poke at the natural and then harass the main in the blink of an eye (eh!) whereas it takes a lot of time for the defending terran army to rotate between the main and the natural.
Forcing the terran to blindly open with an anti-blink build is really bad for the balance of the game but also for the fun and amusement a game should bring.
On October 08 2014 06:35 algue wrote: The problem with blink on Cloud Kingdom only comes partially from the fact that the protoss can easily blink into the main. The real problem is the rotation time between the main and the natural. A protoss can poke at the natural and then harass the main in the blink of an eye (eh!) whereas it takes a lot of time for the defending terran army to rotate between the main and the natural.
Forcing the terran to blindly open with an anti-blink build is really bad for the balance of the game but also for the fun and amusement a game should bring.
This scenario already existed with the map in WoL and doesn't get any worse with HotS. We've also endured much worse blink maps (Yeonsu + Heavy Rain) which not only had the same ease of bouncing between main/nat, but had much more surface area to cover via the mains. We also didn't have the +shield buff for widow mines. Widow mines alone are going to provide quite a bit of zoning potential for the main.
If the worry is a proliferation of widow mine openings in TvP on this map, I can't say I find that a problem. Name me one TvZ game that doesn't involve early game hellions.
On October 08 2014 06:35 algue wrote: The problem with blink on Cloud Kingdom only comes partially from the fact that the protoss can easily blink into the main. The real problem is the rotation time between the main and the natural. A protoss can poke at the natural and then harass the main in the blink of an eye (eh!) whereas it takes a lot of time for the defending terran army to rotate between the main and the natural.
Forcing the terran to blindly open with an anti-blink build is really bad for the balance of the game but also for the fun and amusement a game should bring.
This scenario already existed with the map in WoL and doesn't get any worse with HotS. We've also endured much worse blink maps (Yeonsu + Heavy Rain) which not only had the same ease of bouncing between main/nat, but had much more surface area to cover via the mains. We also didn't have the +shield buff for widow mines. Widow mines alone are going to provide quite a bit of zoning potential for the main.
If the worry is a proliferation of widow mine openings in TvP on this map, I can't say I find that a problem. Name me one TvZ game that doesn't involve early game hellions.
What didnt exist was the Mothership Core. The main problem is that the ramp going to the natural to defend, and running back all the way into the main is a long journey. And a few widow mines don't really do too much to a smart blink player.
On October 08 2014 06:35 algue wrote: The problem with blink on Cloud Kingdom only comes partially from the fact that the protoss can easily blink into the main. The real problem is the rotation time between the main and the natural. A protoss can poke at the natural and then harass the main in the blink of an eye (eh!) whereas it takes a lot of time for the defending terran army to rotate between the main and the natural.
Forcing the terran to blindly open with an anti-blink build is really bad for the balance of the game but also for the fun and amusement a game should bring.
This scenario already existed with the map in WoL and doesn't get any worse with HotS. We've also endured much worse blink maps (Yeonsu + Heavy Rain) which not only had the same ease of bouncing between main/nat, but had much more surface area to cover via the mains. We also didn't have the +shield buff for widow mines. Widow mines alone are going to provide quite a bit of zoning potential for the main.
If the worry is a proliferation of widow mine openings in TvP on this map, I can't say I find that a problem. Name me one TvZ game that doesn't involve early game hellions.
What didnt exist was the Mothership Core. The main problem is that the ramp going to the natural to defend, and running back all the way into the main is a long journey. And a few widow mines don't really do too much to a smart blink player.
The game has already been re-balanced to accommodate the MSC; its vision range/time warp duration has been reduced, blink research increased from 140 seconds to 170, and widow mines got +damage vs. shields. Also, simply dismissing widow mines under the false pretense of "a good Protoss won't let them do much" isn't a real argument. Widow mines are key to holding HotS blink all-ins.
On October 08 2014 06:35 algue wrote: The problem with blink on Cloud Kingdom only comes partially from the fact that the protoss can easily blink into the main. The real problem is the rotation time between the main and the natural. A protoss can poke at the natural and then harass the main in the blink of an eye (eh!) whereas it takes a lot of time for the defending terran army to rotate between the main and the natural.
Forcing the terran to blindly open with an anti-blink build is really bad for the balance of the game but also for the fun and amusement a game should bring.
This scenario already existed with the map in WoL and doesn't get any worse with HotS. We've also endured much worse blink maps (Yeonsu + Heavy Rain) which not only had the same ease of bouncing between main/nat, but had much more surface area to cover via the mains. We also didn't have the +shield buff for widow mines. Widow mines alone are going to provide quite a bit of zoning potential for the main.
If the worry is a proliferation of widow mine openings in TvP on this map, I can't say I find that a problem. Name me one TvZ game that doesn't involve early game hellions.
What didnt exist was the Mothership Core. The main problem is that the ramp going to the natural to defend, and running back all the way into the main is a long journey. And a few widow mines don't really do too much to a smart blink player.
The game has already been re-balanced to accommodate the MSC; its vision range/time warp duration has been reduced, blink research increased from 140 seconds to 170, and widow mines got +damage vs. shields. Also, simply dismissing widow mines under the false pretense of "a good Protoss won't let them do much" isn't a real argument. Widow mines are key to holding HotS blink all-ins.
Yes, but we are talking about early blink play, there will not be very many widow mines. And if there actually are for a potential blink, a Protoss can just use that wasted tech time to do whatever the hell they want, take a faster 3rd, climb to Colossus or Storm.
I dont think you understand the previous point I made, the distance between defending the natural and running back up to your main on the very far end is a long trail. There is a reason these types of maps dont get played anymore, its not about being able to defend the blink, its the possibility of a game ending strategy that you need to prepare for, and in doing so you waste valuable time and resources.
EDIT: And it encourages base trades, in those select games. EDIT 2: Im just going to PM you
On October 08 2014 06:35 algue wrote: The problem with blink on Cloud Kingdom only comes partially from the fact that the protoss can easily blink into the main. The real problem is the rotation time between the main and the natural. A protoss can poke at the natural and then harass the main in the blink of an eye (eh!) whereas it takes a lot of time for the defending terran army to rotate between the main and the natural.
Forcing the terran to blindly open with an anti-blink build is really bad for the balance of the game but also for the fun and amusement a game should bring.
This scenario already existed with the map in WoL and doesn't get any worse with HotS. We've also endured much worse blink maps (Yeonsu + Heavy Rain) which not only had the same ease of bouncing between main/nat, but had much more surface area to cover via the mains. We also didn't have the +shield buff for widow mines. Widow mines alone are going to provide quite a bit of zoning potential for the main.
If the worry is a proliferation of widow mine openings in TvP on this map, I can't say I find that a problem. Name me one TvZ game that doesn't involve early game hellions.
What didnt exist was the Mothership Core. The main problem is that the ramp going to the natural to defend, and running back all the way into the main is a long journey. And a few widow mines don't really do too much to a smart blink player.
The game has already been re-balanced to accommodate the MSC; its vision range/time warp duration has been reduced, blink research increased from 140 seconds to 170, and widow mines got +damage vs. shields. Also, simply dismissing widow mines under the false pretense of "a good Protoss won't let them do much" isn't a real argument. Widow mines are key to holding HotS blink all-ins.
Yes, but we are talking about early blink play, there will not be very many widow mines. And if there actually are for a potential blink, a Protoss can just use that wasted tech time to do whatever the hell they want, take a faster 3rd, climb to Colossus or Storm.
I dont think you understand the previous point I made, the distance between defending the natural and running back up to your main on the very far end is a long trail. There is a reason these types of maps dont get played anymore, its not about being able to defend the blink, its the possibility of a game ending strategy that you need to prepare for, and in doing so you waste valuable time and resources.
EDIT: And it encourages base trades, in those select games.
What constitutes "early blink"? Are we talking about the 1-base blink strategy, or the 2-base? I'm going to assume 2-base blink, because you talk about taking a faster 3rd for the Protoss.
I don't know what you're talking about regarding "wasted tech time". Widow mine drop openings are a common opening for Terran and can easily be scaled back to defensive WM + 3 rax upon scouting a 2-base blink play. There are also numerous solutions which are not just limited to widow mines. Here's a good example from QXC analyzing Polt defending a 2-base blink stalker attack from Rain via a 3 rax opening:
If we are, in fact, talking about a 1-base blink all-in though, then there's no reason to try and defend your nat; just keep the CC in the main and you're fine. What I really want to know, however is how you think this is somehow harder to defend against blink than this. If a Protoss blinks up into a patch of 2-4 widow mines, they have nowhere to go. That's very different from maps like Yeonsu and Heavy Rain, which featured a huge surface area for the stalkers to circumvent a low number of widow mines. Bunkers at the nat, widow mines on high ground. I don't see why defending should be so impossibly hard, and I say this as a Terran that hates TvP.