|
On December 03 2010 04:48 fleeze wrote:
he did not suggest doing this "Double Ex Trick eco opening"? it is a thread about a BO posted in the op which i'm answering to.... not another opening that may be more economical. and i do not have to provide DATA i have to provide an argument or prove an argument wrong. i just did this. my arguments are: - this build wastes larvae (and mining time early on which is valuable against any early pressure) - you are behind if pressured early (which the op says is a plus of this build, but you won't be able to 18 hatch if pressured and will have less drones as any regular build) - no pro uses it (yes this IS an argument)
your call?
picking one point at a time sucks btw... especially if it is the weakest in a chain of arguments and this is exactly what the op is doing. dodging the obvious flaws in his build.
Okay. If you have a queen at 3:20, and one less larva, or a queen at 3:40 and that one larva, are you ahead or behind right now? In 20 seconds? In 40 seconds? Is 20 seconds before 40 seconds? Why, then you are ahead!
You are behind if pressured early. Please provide evidence as to how you can't kill any early pressure with a freaking overpool.
No pro uses it. You know what, you are right. No pro uses this build, because no pro built this build. Pros get paid to play the game and get good at the game, not to pour over numbers and do perfect tests at very slow speed in game, because if they do that, they will not be as good at Starcraft, and they will lose where it matters in a micro battle, or not know how to play the late game correctly, which is far more important, because build orders can be copied, but late game intuition cannot. Which should you practice as a pro gamer? Which one can nobody ever take away from you as a pro gamer? The answer is intuition. The Tasteless build (any of them) has never gotten Tasteless into the GSL.
|
On December 03 2010 04:31 kcdc wrote: I've got to agree with the nay-sayers. This build isn't economically what it's cracked up to be in the OP. It allows for an early queen and a lot of larvae, but because it cuts drones early, you're shorter on minerals with which to spend those larvae. The 6 minute test the OP refered to shows that it's possible to get a lot of drones with this build order because you have a lot of larvae, but the total minerals mined is behind the standard builds. In a real game, you have expenses not accounted for in that 6 minute test (zerglings, crawlers, extractor, zergling speed). Since you're short on early drones and can't drone freely to catch up, you don't have the economy to support production out of your 2 hatcheries + queens.
It's a reasonable opening in ZvZ because it's a decent economy build that counters both hatch first and 7 pool. It's slightly behind 14-pool and roughly even with gas before pool. while what you say makes sense theoretically, it is not true in game. i drone to 16 and then make a queen. i leave those 16 drones on minerals. at 18/18 i wait until i have 300 minerals for a hatch THEN i take gas with the 18/18 drone i make to replace the one that made the hatchery. with 16 drones mining you have enough minerals to make all your larva drones when the first spawn pops. this act alone (5-7 drones building right when the spawn pops puts u equal or ahead in worker count again.)
im not saying this is the most economical build, it clearly is not. i view this build as doing some funky stuff in the beginning to put u ahead in the early-mid. if i have more drones mining for less total time then i will be behind in mineral count for a short time before i gain an advantage. and indeed this is exactly what the economy graph after a game shows. i looked very closely at this graph, along with monitoring worker counts in replays. you do have enough resources to drone VERY hard after your expo is up and a queen is barfing larva there. personally it feels faster to me getting those drones out, as opposed to other builds. while it may be slightly later in game time, like i said, i will be behind for a short time before my greater number of workers starts giving me an advantage.
if someone applies early pressure it will not be much before i am at 18 supply with 16 drones mining. that is enough to make lings to defend. i have also found that spines are not essential for early rushes. mid game ill throw some down, but i can make enough zerglings to defend against marines+scvs, with my queens tanking.
this build caught my interest the first time it was posted in the other thread and ive been testing it for the last week or so. i have gone from 1500 to 1950, something like 20-6 in my last handful of games. sure the players i am playing arent the best. but the vast majority of players fall into that category.
|
On December 03 2010 05:05 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 04:58 fleeze wrote:On December 03 2010 04:56 Skrag wrote:On December 03 2010 03:39 fleeze wrote: it is exactly 30 seconds (2x15 second larva spawn time) and this is A LOT. also read my post again. your 18 supply timings are not at the same time as a regular builds 18 supply timings since you wasted larvae and your 18 supply is that much later as the time you stayed on 3 larvae at your hatch. so it's even more then 30 seconds.
Wtf are you even talking about? Have you tried it, or watched the replays? You waste exactly 7 seconds of larvae spawn time, not 30. this was about hatch timing... 16 hatch vs 18 hatch. Ahshit, my bad. Gogogogo reading comprehension. The earlier queen *more* than makes up for any 30 second delay on the hatch though.
I just ran timings, though, and it's not a 30 second delay on the hatch, it's 20, just because of the way things work out. And the queen comes 20 seconds faster. 20 seconds on a queen is better than 20 seconds on a hatch.
|
While I'm not agreeing with people shooting down this opening before trying it, I gotta say that there's a bit of hyperbole when people almost claim that it will revolutionize standards.
You won't see a HUGE difference between this and a 14pool/15hatch: 1) You get your pool (and queens) about 20sec sooner than 14pool/15hatch. 2) You get your hatch about 30sec later than 14pool/15hatch. 3) You'll likely get your gas about 20sec later than 14pool/15hatch as well.
It's not the grace saving build that will trump terran cheese into the ground... but it's not craptastic either. It's one of the numerous BOs that can get you from point A to point B with some pros and cons. Ability to get lings 20sec sooner can be a game changing factor... just like delaying metabolic boost by 20sec can be the reason that reaper kills 2 drones, or delaying that hatch by 30sec can make it slightly easier for your opponent to pressure it.
I just wish people would relativize(sp?) facts instead of throwing opinions right and left.
|
On December 03 2010 02:09 BodyMassageMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 15:12 Conrose wrote: I think this build is quite vulnerable to hidden tech, particularly in the case of DTs, Phoenix openings, Banshees and Vikings. ZvZ, you'll really want to catch when they put down that Baneling Nest and hotkey your Drones. I also see early Muta harass being potentially dangerous with this BO. However, vs the current FotM builds, it is flexible enough to hold up. Isn't every build vulnerable to hidden tech? I mean, if you haven't scouted their tech, how are you going to properly prepare for it? When your opponent scouts an 11-pool, I think they'll be reluctant to tech straight to air and focus more on defensive measures. When they're fearful of a rush, they will pour funds into their army, delaying their tech and allowing this build to 'catch up,' although it seems like you're already ahead since you're fast teching to Spawning Pool and giving you the option of attacking or macro'ing. And also, when you scout your opponent and see them fast teching with no (or few) units, transitioning into early aggression is a lot easier when you're Spawning Pool is already completed. When your opponent shows early aggression, it's a lot easier to defend with your Spawning Pool completed. Spine Crawlers already take eons to build - it'd take a bit longer if you're waiting for the Spawning Pool to finish.
What I mean by vulnerable to hidden tech is that it takes significantly longer to set up the proper response to a hidden play after it has been revealed one way or another since the BO is late on gas, therefor late on various hard counters to more gimmicky plays. Lets take a BO with usuall gas times, someone tries a DT Play on you, you already have your lair almost by default, so you are only an Overseer Morph away from countering the DT's so hard his head spins. Vs a DT Play and you don't have your lair up yet because you late gassed, or worse yet, Late Gas into Speedlings, you'll be in for a world of hurt, they may even decide to snipe your constructing Lair and Spawning Pool to force you into GG.
Phoenix Openings will be particularly troublesome considering how much damage they can do in how little time it takes to do it with only a handful of Queens available to defend against them and in a very bad scenario, still a lair away from any massable response like Hydras. Cloaked plays can also play on the same slow tech vulnerabilities. 11 Pool in and of itself is cause for concern, but a Gasless 11 Overpool is very easy to defend against as Protoss or Terran if you do indeed confirm it is gasless. And with only Drones to defend against the scout if you really do drone hard with this build usually means the scouting harvester will be able to stick around for quite a while to see you not gassing quite yet. At that point, the P can choose to wall off and rush to DT or Phoenix.
|
I agree, Conrose, that it seems like this build is made for late gas, but really, we did not even consider putting gas into the build. What I (not sure about JD or the others) wanted to prove is that it is a superior opening to any hatch first build, which to me just smells like suicide. Hatch first builds don't have gas either until very late. Ultimately, you can press gas into the build at any point, but then it is endless argument about "how much gas do you want? When? Zergling speed or banelings?"
Better to just leave that to the reader to figure out.
This post does not constitute a statement resembling: "But you said it was superior. It must be superior in every way, at every point in time." Well duh, no build is going to ever accomplish that. A 6 pool is probably superior in the first 3 minutes of the game to any build by any race.
|
On December 03 2010 05:18 Conrose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 02:09 BodyMassageMachine wrote:On December 02 2010 15:12 Conrose wrote: I think this build is quite vulnerable to hidden tech, particularly in the case of DTs, Phoenix openings, Banshees and Vikings. ZvZ, you'll really want to catch when they put down that Baneling Nest and hotkey your Drones. I also see early Muta harass being potentially dangerous with this BO. However, vs the current FotM builds, it is flexible enough to hold up. Isn't every build vulnerable to hidden tech? I mean, if you haven't scouted their tech, how are you going to properly prepare for it? When your opponent scouts an 11-pool, I think they'll be reluctant to tech straight to air and focus more on defensive measures. When they're fearful of a rush, they will pour funds into their army, delaying their tech and allowing this build to 'catch up,' although it seems like you're already ahead since you're fast teching to Spawning Pool and giving you the option of attacking or macro'ing. And also, when you scout your opponent and see them fast teching with no (or few) units, transitioning into early aggression is a lot easier when you're Spawning Pool is already completed. When your opponent shows early aggression, it's a lot easier to defend with your Spawning Pool completed. Spine Crawlers already take eons to build - it'd take a bit longer if you're waiting for the Spawning Pool to finish. What I mean by vulnerable to hidden tech is that it takes significantly longer to set up the proper response to a hidden play after it has been revealed one way or another since the BO is late on gas, therefor late on various hard counters to more gimmicky plays. Lets take a BO with usuall gas times, someone tries a DT Play on you, you already have your lair almost by default, so you are only an Overseer Morph away from countering the DT's so hard his head spins. Vs a DT Play and you don't have your lair up yet because you late gassed, or worse yet, Late Gas into Speedlings, you'll be in for a world of hurt, they may even decide to snipe your constructing Lair and Spawning Pool to force you into GG. Phoenix Openings will be particularly troublesome considering how much damage they can do in how little time it takes to do it with only a handful of Queens available to defend against them and in a very bad scenario, still a lair away from any massable response like Hydras. Cloaked plays can also play on the same slow tech vulnerabilities. 11 Pool in and of itself is cause for concern, but a Gasless 11 Overpool is very easy to defend against as Protoss or Terran if you do indeed confirm it is gasless. And with only Drones to defend against the scout if you really do drone hard with this build usually means the scouting harvester will be able to stick around for quite a while to see you not gassing quite yet. At that point, the P can choose to wall off and rush to DT or Phoenix. with proper scouting (ol sac at ~26-30 depending on what your scouting drone saw) nothing is a problem with this build. you can adapt to anything. i had one game where a terran was massing thors. i saw 2 factories, with 2 tech labs before he had any thors out. i switched out of ling/baneling and went roach/baneling/infestor and owned.
starports will be building when u send that overlord in. this is enough time to put down an evo chamber, and build an extra queen/or 2, + spores at your bases if your lair is late (which it sometimes is). spores pretty much deny all phoenix harass solely by themselves unless he wants to trade his expensive gas units for drones/queens. i lost to a toss that did go dt. but that wasn't because he caught me with no detection. i just played like shit, suiciding my army +overseers into his cannons a few times.
one final point. i made an 11 pool. i can spend 1 larva on lings. go take map control and deny scouting. problem solved. if he is playing in the dark against my 11 pool he has no idea if i am massing lings to overrun, or playing eco. if he guesses wrong he loses. not to mention when i scout what he is doing i can instantly change my strategy to punish his choice.
11 pool is much faster then most zergs are used to. when i get around to scouting im always surprised to see that my setup is well equipped to deal with whatever he is doing.
|
And with only Drones to defend against the scout if you really do drone hard with this build usually means the scouting harvester will be able to stick around for quite a while to see you not gassing quite yet. At that point, the P can choose to wall off and rush to DT or Phoenix.
Don't forget the queen comes out earlier than hatch>pool, and the queen can pick off a scouting worker pretty easily. It also pressures the opponent because it opens up a number of options that the zerg can use - instead of seeing the hatch first and being safe for the next 3-4 minutes.
A lot of the negative comments on this thread seem to be coming from random theorycrafters who don't want to have to think what to do or change their current openings... which seems very close minded and more than a little silly.
|
On December 03 2010 05:10 Lomilar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 04:48 fleeze wrote:
he did not suggest doing this "Double Ex Trick eco opening"? it is a thread about a BO posted in the op which i'm answering to.... not another opening that may be more economical. and i do not have to provide DATA i have to provide an argument or prove an argument wrong. i just did this. my arguments are: - this build wastes larvae (and mining time early on which is valuable against any early pressure) - you are behind if pressured early (which the op says is a plus of this build, but you won't be able to 18 hatch if pressured and will have less drones as any regular build) - no pro uses it (yes this IS an argument)
your call?
picking one point at a time sucks btw... especially if it is the weakest in a chain of arguments and this is exactly what the op is doing. dodging the obvious flaws in his build.
Okay. If you have a queen at 3:20, and one less larva, or a queen at 3:40 and that one larva, are you ahead or behind right now? In 20 seconds? In 40 seconds? Is 20 seconds before 40 seconds? Why, then you are ahead! You are behind if pressured early. Please provide evidence as to how you can't kill any early pressure with a freaking overpool.
OMG. you fail so hard at reading.... I ALREADY SAID IT'S EASIER TO HOLD. the point is you will be behind ECONOMICALLY!!!! i NEVER said you can't hold early pressure, stop making wrong assumptions. total fail in answering (and understanding...) my questions.
ok your queen will be earlier but you have to CATCH UP because you are behind because you LOST mining time already (delaying drones...) AND you have to wait 45 seconds for your extra larvae to spawn (with even one less larvae aka drone).... this is a lot of minerals for this early in the game. go ahead and calculate it if you mind, as i won't bother with an exact number (since it doesn't matter for my point). and now just imagine you had to use all your spawned larvae for zerglings because you are under pressure from a 2 rax opening (blind counter to this build btw). you understand now why you are behind?
No pro uses it. You know what, you are right. No pro uses this build, because no pro built this build. Pros get paid to play the game and get good at the game, not to pour over numbers and do perfect tests at very slow speed in game, because if they do that, they will not be as good at Starcraft, and they will lose where it matters in a micro battle, or not know how to play the late game correctly, which is far more important, because build orders can be copied, but late game intuition cannot. Which should you practice as a pro gamer? Which one can nobody ever take away from you as a pro gamer? The answer is intuition. The Tasteless build (any of them) has never gotten Tasteless into the GSL.
i already said (again....) that pros communicate with each other and you can believe that they will have tried every possible pool timing (especially the openings) at least ONE of them would use it IF it was superior to EVERY OTHER ZERG OPENING ON ANY MAP IN ANY MATCHUP!!! there are many pros actively reading this forum. don't you think at least they would have tried this? my arguments also provide many points why pros don't use this strat. you just ignore them or fail to understand.
I just ran timings, though, and it's not a 30 second delay on the hatch, it's 20, just because of the way things work out. And the queen comes 20 seconds faster. 20 seconds on a queen is better than 20 seconds on a hatch.
my bad sorry. i used the 15 seconds larvae spawn time it's actually a bit less ingame since the times ingame are for normal speed settings.
|
Comparing 11 pool to 14 pool (with extractor trick to make the comparison simpler since it's basically neutral):
builds are exactly the same up to overlord at 11 supply;
14 pool builds 3 drones while 11 pool waits for 200 minerals for pool and wastes ~1/2 a larva;
14 pool starts pool ~20 seconds later than 11 pool but has additional half larva and greater total minerals mined;
14 pool starts hatch and gas ~30 seconds earlier while 11 pool gets queen ~20 seconds earlier;
larvae injection pops 20 seconds earlier for 11 pool, giving 11 pool the larvae needed to catch up in production.
Until the additional drones from the larvae injections are mining, 11 pool is behind in total resources mined. If you spend all of your resources up to that point, 14 pool will get you more stuff. If a shortage of larvae is limiting your production, 14 pool is not as good. I believe that is what was happening in the tests in the other thread--people were making only drones and not spending on defense, so their production was limited by larvae and not by minerals. The 14 pool builds built up an excess of minerals. In a real game, this doesn't happen, meaning 14 pool is not limited by larvae.
|
On December 03 2010 05:25 Lomilar wrote: I agree, Conrose, that it seems like this build is made for late gas, but really, we did not even consider putting gas into the build. What I (not sure about JD or the others) wanted to prove is that it is a superior opening to any hatch first build
While I think this build is a strong opening, that last statement depends on how you define "superior".
Hatch first builds are still ahead economically, with 14h/15p appearing to be the leader overall, and 14h/14p making a very small economic sacrifice to get a slight larva advantage, so I don't know if you believe you've successfully proved that 11OP is a superior opening, but if so, I would have to disagree. It's clearly not superior for every situation.
What I think has been proved, though, is that an 11 pool opening can turn into an economic build that isn't *that* far behind the "best" economic builds. Not nearly as far behind as most people would imagine, for sure.
|
I think its a good point that this build works well with overlord sac (initial OL methinks and this is map dependent of course) rather than a drone (especially against P), by the time you lose the ovie the minerals wont be a problem. You should still be able to scout the FE and transition to take it out fast enough, and clearly you will have enough time/queens to prevent air cuteness.
|
On December 03 2010 05:41 kcdc wrote: Comparing 11 pool to 14 pool (with extractor trick to make the comparison simpler since it's basically neutral):
builds are exactly the same up to overlord at 11 supply;
14 pool builds 3 drones while 11 pool waits for 200 minerals for pool and wastes ~1/2 a larva;
14 pool starts pool ~20 seconds later than 11 pool but has additional half larva and greater total minerals mined;
14 pool starts hatch and gas ~30 seconds earlier while 11 pool gets queen ~20 seconds earlier;
larvae injection pops 20 seconds earlier for 11 pool, giving 11 pool the larvae needed to catch up in production.
Until the additional drones from the larvae injections are mining, 11 pool is behind in total resources mined. If you spend all of your resources up to that point, 14 pool will get you more stuff. If a shortage of larvae is limiting your production, 14 pool is not as good. I believe that is what was happening in the tests in the other thread--people were making only drones and not spending on defense, so their production was limited by larvae and not by minerals. The 14 pool builds built up an excess of minerals. In a real game, this doesn't happen, meaning 14 pool is not limited by larvae. exactly. but you have to add the lost mining time of 11 pool (12/13 supply drones are out faster for 14 pool too).
|
On December 03 2010 05:41 fleeze wrote: the point is you will be behind ECONOMICALLY!!!!
ok your queen will be earlier but you have to CATCH UP because you are behind because you LOST mining time already (delaying drones...) AND you have to wait 45 seconds for your extra larvae to spawn (with even one less larvae aka drone).... this is a lot of minerals for this early in the game. go ahead and calculate it if you mind, as i won't bother with an exact number (since it doesn't matter for my point).
The earlier queen doesn't just allow you to catch up. It allows you to PULL AHEAD. And the slightly delayed drones are at least partially made up for by the fact that drones 10 and 11 are faster. It's not a "lot of minerals", and you're not even behind by a full drone. It's a very small amount of minerals, which is the price you pay for the extra flexibility and early safety.
and now just imagine you had to use all your spawned larvae for zerglings because you are under pressure from a 2 rax opening (blind counter to this build btw). you understand now why you are behind?
Compared to what?
You *have the opportunity* to spend those earlier larvae on zerglings earlier if you need them. That's a bonus, not a penalty. If you had to use all those spawned larvae for zerglings, then you held off the pressure *better and easier* than a 14pool would have, and are *ahead*.
And seriously wtf at saying 2rax blind counters an 11pool? I'm calling bullshit.
|
Some corrections and comments:
On December 03 2010 05:41 kcdc wrote: 14 pool builds 3 drones while 11 pool waits for 200 minerals for pool and wastes ~1/2 a larva;
This is true. 11pool wastes 1/2 a larva.
14 pool starts pool ~20 seconds later than 11 pool but has additional half larva and greater total minerals mined;
Also true, although the "greater total minerals mined" is going to be a pretty small amount.
14 pool starts hatch and gas ~30 seconds earlier while 11 pool gets queen ~20 seconds earlier;
False. 14pool starts hatch 20 seconds earlier, not 30.
larvae injection pops 20 seconds earlier for 11 pool, giving 11 pool the larvae needed to catch up in production.
Modification: larvae injection pops 20 seconds earlier, giving 11 pool the larvae needed to PULL AHEAD in production. Between that point and the time the hatch finishes, 11pool is ahead by about a larva and a half, and after the 16hatch finishes, 11pool is still ahead by about 1/2 larva.
Until the additional drones from the larvae injections are mining, 11 pool is behind in total resources mined. If you spend all of your resources up to that point, 14 pool will get you more stuff. If a shortage of larvae is limiting your production, 14 pool is not as good. I believe that is what was happening in the tests in the other thread--people were making only drones and not spending on defense, so their production was limited by larvae and not by minerals. The 14 pool builds built up an excess of minerals. In a real game, this doesn't happen, meaning 14 pool is not limited by larvae.
This is where I agree with you. The tests were pure 6 minute drone races, and 11pool beat everything except for 14hatch. But you can't just claim this makes the 11pool worthless, without showing examples of how and where it fails. The original post is a foundation, not a build. You're claiming that it would be worse at actual builds, but haven't even attempted to provide any proof. Sorry, but the onus is on you. The OP showed that 11pool can be superior economically to any other pool-first build.
So pick a build, something that you would typically do with a 14pool/16hatch, and I'll be more than happy to run detailed in-game tests, because although I'm intrigued about the possibilities here, I also would like to see how it holds up in real in-game situations where you're doing more than just building workers.
|
On December 03 2010 05:53 fleeze wrote: exactly. but you have to add the lost mining time of 11 pool (12/13 supply drones are out faster for 14 pool too).
Drones 10 and 11 are out faster for 11 pool, and drone 11 in particular is significantly faster.
|
On December 03 2010 05:54 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 05:41 fleeze wrote: the point is you will be behind ECONOMICALLY!!!!
ok your queen will be earlier but you have to CATCH UP because you are behind because you LOST mining time already (delaying drones...) AND you have to wait 45 seconds for your extra larvae to spawn (with even one less larvae aka drone).... this is a lot of minerals for this early in the game. go ahead and calculate it if you mind, as i won't bother with an exact number (since it doesn't matter for my point). The earlier queen doesn't just allow you to catch up. It allows you to PULL AHEAD. And the slightly delayed drones are at least partially made up for by the fact that drones 10 and 11 are faster. It's not a "lot of minerals", and you're not even behind by a full drone. It's a very small amount of minerals, which is the price you pay for the extra flexibility and early safety. Show nested quote +l and now just imagine you had to use all your spawned larvae for zerglings because you are under pressure from a 2 rax opening (blind counter to this buid btw). you understand now why you are behind? Compared to what? You *have the opportunity* to spend those earlier larvae on zerglings earlier if you need them. That's a bonus, not a penalty. If you had to use all those spawned larvae for zerglings, then you held off the pressure *better and easier* than a 14pool would have, and are *ahead*. compared to a standard opening what else do you think? i agree in that it's easier to hold it off i said this multiple times now.
some additional thoughts though: - if you don't build the drones you ARE behind (as you need them to catch up... already forgot about this?) - you lack the minerals the standard build will have mined (see kcdc's post) - you won't have an expansion (as a 14/15 hatch would) - you won't have gas for speed or banes (as a 14 pool would)
conclusion: your behind compared to a standard build.
And seriously wtf at saying 2rax blind counters an 11pool? I'm calling bullshit.
2 rax pressure openings won't let you produce the drones needed to catch up. you also can't attack (wall-in) and you have no gas to threaten it because of the wall-in even if you beat the initial push (fe baneling bust). also you won't get your 18 hatch through. this is theorycraft on my side btw but seems pretty plausible (and is not my main argument). btw we are talking about an economically superior 11 pool here, seems like most of you forget about this.
|
Please people will you stfu about
1. what "optimal" means and what is "clearly" superior/inferior/stupid 2. whether or not the OP advertises his build well or hypes too much 3. who can read properly and who can't 4. how often you've reiterated your point and people still don't get it 5. ...
The only constructive thing to be done with this thread is to figure out in what circumstances this build is good or can be adapted to get an advantageous position compared to standard builds and in what circumstances this build is not good.
It appears to me that the haters make one valid point: you get a lot of economy from the queens, but this happens a bit late and you have to play catch up, so early on you don't have a lot of spare minerals to buy stuff and getting early lings will hurt your economy more than if you did a conventional opening. Thus it seems to be an interesting shuffling of timing windows: if you're attacked very early, the 11 pool is better than a standard opening. If you're attacked early but late enough that it is easily defended by the standard opening, the 11 pool is economically worse. If you're not attacked at all, it doesn't matter much. Does this sum up the situation?
Second, so far it seems that with this build it is more difficult to get gas early - is this true or is there a way to get gas early on without damaging economy too much.
Pretty please stop taking things so personally and/or being rude for no reason, and focus on the topic at hand or ignore the thread.
|
Bah, I've been trying this in ZvT and ZvZ. Still haven't really gotten the hang of it. I personally don't think this is great for my ZvZ still, since I need the initial creep spread to defend my Natural. I can see it being used really efficiently against T and P, but I haven't gotten the proper responses and scouting timings down yet.
|
On December 03 2010 06:11 fleeze wrote: some additional thoughts though: - if you don't build the drones you ARE behind (as you need them to catch up... already forgot about this?) - you lack the minerals the standard build will have mined (see kcdc's post) - you won't have an expansion (as a 14/15 hatch would) - you won't have gas for speed or banes (as a 14 pool would)
conclusion: your behind compared to a standard build.
*If you don't build the drones* that is true.
But if you didn't need the zerglings to hold off the pressure, then you can still build the drones.
And if you *did* need the zerglings, then guess what? Your standard build just died, because it didn't have them, or took a shit-ton of damage, and you're behind just as much, if not more.
Show nested quote + And seriously wtf at saying 2rax blind counters an 11pool? I'm calling bullshit.
2 rax pressure openings won't let you produce the drones needed to catch up. you also can't attack (wall-in) and you have no gas to threaten it because of the wall-in even if you beat the initial push (fe baneling bust). also you won't get your 18 hatch through. this is theorycraft on my side btw but seems pretty plausible (and is not my main argument).
Again, you have the *opportunity* to build zerglings faster if you need them. You also already have the earlier queen for extra defense. Everything else you said applies equally to a 14pool. If 2rax pressure is strong enough that you're not going to get the 18 hatch through, then chances are very good that you wouldn't get a 16hatch through either. Neither of them is going to have creep in time to place crawlers if we're talking about pressure so early that you're building lings from your first queen larvae spawn. But seriously...if you *need* the zerglings that early, you can have them, which is something that simply can't be said about the 14pool.
btw we are talking about an economically superior 11 pool here, seems like most of you forget about this.
The whole point of this opening is that it gives you a ton of flexibility. It can lead to either strong 1base play if that's what you want or need, or it can lead to a very strong economic build that is comparable to 14hatch builds. That is the point that *you* seem to be forgetting.
|
|
|
|