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On May 16 2011 12:28 michaelhasanalias wrote:Iif I'm not mistaken, you may have copied this build from me unless I never posted it on TL. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214208edit: The reason I posted that thread on the low wall guide was to post the followup on the cheese I was doing, but it looks like I never posted it. After watching a few of the replays, I'm fairly certain you got this from me, because you're doing the less efficient variation I had in the example vid (except I just left earlier). Also, the variation you do is far weaker than the one i've been doing , but hits about the same time. 10 depot 11 rax (wall off bot) 11 rax 12 rax 15 depot 24 OC unless your macro slips 15 marines and 12 SCVs at 5min.... was pretty sure I posted that a while back but if not, then cheers anyway. The all-in is a-move win versus just about every zerg opener up to high master, and fairly strong versus toss although easily hard countered with a standard opener if he just opts for a stalker instead of sentry first. For terran if he knows what do he'll destroy it. If you send your SCVs to surround the bunker as you push up, you can catch him off guard and he'll die, but for toss, he only has to push his stalkers up (he'll have 1 at least, possibly a 2nd as you push out), and he should be trying to harass your low wall, and when you push out kite your marines back to his base. Going to dig up some replays but if I can find then it'll be okay. This all-in is super duper strong vs zerg, and pretty strong vs protoss with below-average micro. edit2: to add to your OP, since i've done this build ~50+ times myself on ladders: You need to decide whether to wall with standard 2rax or wall the low ramp. The low ramp wall will put your SCVs at risk, and if your opponent scouts you in time, he can kill 1-2 SCVs, esp on a map like close metal (see replay in the low wall thread). Against zerg: Basically a-move your marines and keep the scvs in front. The HP advantage from the SCVs behooves you to just attack with them rather than use them to block your marines. Extremely difficult to hold as zerg and requires very good scouting. If you scout a low ramp wall you need to play extremely conservatively if you opened hatch first. Against terran: always low wall because if you can bait marine aggression from the other player (sometimes bunker pushes) you're at a huge advantage. If he went factory it's basically a build order loss. I highly recommend sending SCVs unless the map is huge, because if you catch him off guard, you can surround the bunker before the SCVs can move in to repair. Very easy to hold as terran though as long as you have 1 bunker and can get your SCVs on it. Against protoss: Very very important to push in and get those stalkers as soon as possible. Send at least some scvs to chase the stalkers, but mostly worry about getting your marines to focus down those stalkers before they get a chance to kite. Your best bet is queueing those marines outside your opponent's base such that you can bullet up the ramp when you're ready, OR catch him moving out if he's 4gating in response. General execution: When you're clearing XN towers, you need to only show a few marines at once at either tower. You can reveal on the map multiple marines, but it's important to make sure your opponent "sees" that you're just being aggressive with a 1rax amount of marines. So if you decide to make use of 5-6 early on, just be mindful of blowing your cover. You DO not want to lose marines while you're clearing the map, as every marine is more DPS to snipe those bunkers, spines, stalkers. add: here's a few of the replays of the stronger version in TvZ: vs TheDoctor vs strobot vs TheDoctor vs strobot vs TheDoctor vs strobot vs TheDoctor vs strobot I dont have tim to caption them but I think the last one is the blind hold. These are top 250 replays trying to figure out how to stop this in tvz. Would like some credit please.
Didn't know you had a similar build, sorry. I linked your wall off thread in the OP, I hope you don't mind ?
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I do not think you should have posted this, most people will just blind counter you now when you see no gas, or even from the start of the game haha =D
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On May 16 2011 15:19 gslavik wrote: Could the 3 gate sentry expand from Protoss hold it off?
Since by the time the nexus is dropped, there are 3 sentries out. Instead, cancel the nexus, warp more sentries and keep ramp FF'ed indefinitely. I believe it takes 6 sentries to keep a constant FF up.
3 Gate sentry expand isn't a viable option in PvT as far as I know. You basicaly get demolished by fast reaper builds, and sentries alone can't hold off anything vs T (unlike vs Z). But yes, chronoing sentries work to some extent (see replay of me losing to MYMSaSe). However they are a bit of a gamble, if you get them up a couple seconds too late, you lose the game. As P, I advise you to chrono out stalkers instead and work on your kiting micro
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On May 16 2011 10:07 Geiko wrote:Good evening TL, A brief introduction, I am geiko, mid-master league protoss (rank 50 in my league average) and very crappy terran player, like plat level. For those of you who don't believe me, i brought a replay of me playing terran against a friend. Warning : its painful to see... I've never played more than a couple of games of terran, usualy in team games. However, I got to here in 2 days : You want to know how I did it ? To reach this level, I just spammed about 60-70 games as Terran doing ONLY the same build. Build order : Three rax before orbital with supply call down. + Show Spoiler + 10 depot at the bottom of the ramp (Rally your 9th worker to the bottom of the ramp) 11 barracks (finish the wall off) cut SCVs at 12 12 barracks at top of ramp (rally your 12th scv to the top of ramp) 12 barracks at top of ramp (pull SCV at 100 minerals to build barracks)
With the the scv making the second barracks, go scout when it is finished. If 2 player map, no need to scout.
12 marine 13 marine 14 marine 15 OC then only marines.
call down supply on your supply depot as soon as you can. The timing should be perfect to allow you to build your 20th supply marine.
clear the watch towers with 2-3 marines then push out with ALL SCVs and marines at about 4:30.
Practise your micro and win ^^
Important details :Practise walling off with supply + barracks : it's not that easy ! Link to a great thread about this by michaelhasanalias : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214208Rally your marines into your base, not at the ramp so scouts cannnot see them. Only rally the marines from the first barracks at your ramp. You NEED map control. Be active with your first marines (clear watch towers, chase scouts etc...) Practise stutter-step micro ! vsProtoss : Try to attack using a different path than the normal attack. Your push has the timing to be intercepted by the zealot + stalker poke and you don't want that (stalkers can kite you all the way back to their base) Try to spot the stalkers with your 2 scout marines and attack with your main army from a different path. While in the protoss base, if he refuses to engage you, take out the pylons as a priority. vsZerg : If you are scouted with overlord, you will need to push a bit more early and try to bunker rush him. Always make the first marine pop INSIDE your wall off (even though it is tempting to go outside to kill the scout). If you pop outside and he has 6 or 7 pooled, you lost the game right there. Engage with SCVs first. vs Terran : This is the hardest matchup. If he scouts you, you are dead 100% (bunker + repair = gg). The key element is surprise. Walk up the ramp as fast as you can with scvs first and circle the bunker before he has a chance to send SCVs to repair. If he doesn't have a bunker, it shouldn't be too hard to kill him. Strength and weekness of the build :It hits extremely hard, with about 9 marines and 12 SCV. If your opponent has never seen this build and doesn't expect it, he WILL lose. It is extremely easy to pull-off (plat level mecanics, 0 strategy involved) If scouted, you will die a horrible death vs anyone (except vs protoss, they have to pull some decent micro to beat you even when scouted). Susceptible to being harrassed with scouting worker Replays : Trolling the ProsI said GM in my title when I am only rank 1 Master because I like provocative thread Titles ^^ I meant that I just play at a GM level (even match vs most of the GMs I have played) because you can't really get in the GM league right now Here are a couple of my victims in one afternoon : KrasS (GM rank 15) : + Show Spoiler +(M) ToD (GM rank 19) : + Show Spoiler +Mondragon (GM rank 21) : + Show Spoiler +mTwRINE (GM rank 25) : + Show Spoiler +RGICytoplasm (GM rank 50) : + Show Spoiler +Siw (GM rank 60): + Show Spoiler +WarLord (GM rank 65) : + Show Spoiler +CN!MoMaN (GM rank 80) : + Show Spoiler +RAZERservyoa (GM rank 80) : + Show Spoiler +AiSeiplo (GM rank 90) : + Show Spoiler +VirusLaukyo (GM rank 110) : + Show Spoiler +NaViSlaViK (GM rank 111) : + Show Spoiler +Me losing (how to counter this):Warning, some of these replays, I might have screwed up, or bad positions or people might just know about his build and blind counter it. This is just an indication of how to deal with it. vs Protoss : + Show Spoiler +MYMSaSe (GM ~rank 25) He chronoes out sentries More replays coming soon vs Terran : + Show Spoiler + Just get a bunker and repair it ^^ Replays coming soon
vs Zerg : + Show Spoiler +RGICytoplasm (GM ~rank110) He gets ultra fast banelings More replays coming soon Conclusion :I had fun trolling a couple pro players in my one day of laddering as Terran. I am aware that I probably won't be able to win anymore games against pros once I post this, but I have a couple of hard weeks of work ahead of me, and I decided to post this so as to not be tempted to spend whole days laddering ^^ As a protoss player, I feel this strategy is the easiest and most effective cheese in the game. It takes little to no skill and can beat just about anyone (see replays). Try to have a friend perform it on you, I took about 15 games before understanding how to deal with it. The bottom wall-in makes it impossible for your opponent to scout you, and he is basicaly playing in the dark until 9 marines and 12 SCVs come knocking at his door Have fun with it (if you plan to use it) and as always, feel free to leave comments (I've been called a cheesing noob on the ladder all day, i can take it here as well ^^) You can also feel free to tell me I'm awesome btw (<3)
So get to your masters league and then people will crush this build over and over until you get demoted.
I'm trying to understand the mindset of these "DO X to easily get to master league". Threads like these are starting to remind me of bad weight loss commercials that encourage you to stop wasting time on excercise and just start taking their pill once a day. This is so hurtful to this game, "Hey go mass games playing like an ass-hat so you can get some self-worth. Its a terrible approach and you should be embarassed as an OP. Why cant you just claim, [D} New TvP build? I dont get why people have to take it a step farther and say "HEY GUESS WHAT BRONZES, TIME TO GET PROMOTED.
If you want to be truly good and stay in your masters league, do not follow this build. Play standard and work your mechanics up. Not only will you eventully get to masters(training hard enough) You will actully earn "masters" and be able to stay there.
I dont mean to come off so harsh, but theres like 10 of these threads now and its just a terrible approach to the mindset of the game. I mean who works hard to get better at this game anyway right?
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On May 16 2011 12:57 Darpa wrote: I tried this build 14 times tonight, 2 problems arose, (I also played it with toss to try and see how you could defend).
1, most maps you cant wall off with a depot and barracks + scv.
The only maps where this doesn't work is Tal Darim and Scrap. I have down voted both these maps as well as Typhon which is too big.
On May 16 2011 13:59 Darpa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 13:53 TolEranceNA wrote: So let me confirm my self, theres no good response from Zerg, whatever the Zerg does, he is going to get A-moved and steamed-over. I guess my laddering career has ended for now, until blizzard figured something out.
EDIT: Does Banelings work? I doubt a standard timing can hold this off. Like i said in my previous post. Good scouting (i.e. if your close positions you will get your scout in before he can wall. or if you barrack/depot at the bottom of the ramp) is key. If you see either of those just drop 2-3 early spine crawlers and you will smash the push and take a free win. Its only if you dont scout it that its hard to stop. edit. Particularily if you see a supply drop on the depot you should have cause for worry.
Only P in close position can get his scout in with normal timings. And most Ps don't scout at 9 but at 13 (after gate) so I rarely had problems with players getting their scout behind my wall. You should have 2 normal marines (non-hidden ones) at the time you are about to supply drop. As stated in the OP, it is imperative that you move out with them and prevent the scout from seeing the supply drop.
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Did this vs a master player (I'm platinum) and it worked just fine. He even saw it a bit early and FF'd me and I still beat him.
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Can you explain why you build the OC instead of a supply depot?
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On May 16 2011 15:33 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 10:07 Geiko wrote:Good evening TL, A brief introduction, I am geiko, mid-master league protoss (rank 50 in my league average) and very crappy terran player, like plat level. For those of you who don't believe me, i brought a replay of me playing terran against a friend. Warning : its painful to see... I've never played more than a couple of games of terran, usualy in team games. However, I got to here in 2 days : You want to know how I did it ? To reach this level, I just spammed about 60-70 games as Terran doing ONLY the same build. Build order : Three rax before orbital with supply call down. + Show Spoiler + 10 depot at the bottom of the ramp (Rally your 9th worker to the bottom of the ramp) 11 barracks (finish the wall off) cut SCVs at 12 12 barracks at top of ramp (rally your 12th scv to the top of ramp) 12 barracks at top of ramp (pull SCV at 100 minerals to build barracks)
With the the scv making the second barracks, go scout when it is finished. If 2 player map, no need to scout.
12 marine 13 marine 14 marine 15 OC then only marines.
call down supply on your supply depot as soon as you can. The timing should be perfect to allow you to build your 20th supply marine.
clear the watch towers with 2-3 marines then push out with ALL SCVs and marines at about 4:30.
Practise your micro and win ^^
Important details :Practise walling off with supply + barracks : it's not that easy ! Link to a great thread about this by michaelhasanalias : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214208Rally your marines into your base, not at the ramp so scouts cannnot see them. Only rally the marines from the first barracks at your ramp. You NEED map control. Be active with your first marines (clear watch towers, chase scouts etc...) Practise stutter-step micro ! vsProtoss : Try to attack using a different path than the normal attack. Your push has the timing to be intercepted by the zealot + stalker poke and you don't want that (stalkers can kite you all the way back to their base) Try to spot the stalkers with your 2 scout marines and attack with your main army from a different path. While in the protoss base, if he refuses to engage you, take out the pylons as a priority. vsZerg : If you are scouted with overlord, you will need to push a bit more early and try to bunker rush him. Always make the first marine pop INSIDE your wall off (even though it is tempting to go outside to kill the scout). If you pop outside and he has 6 or 7 pooled, you lost the game right there. Engage with SCVs first. vs Terran : This is the hardest matchup. If he scouts you, you are dead 100% (bunker + repair = gg). The key element is surprise. Walk up the ramp as fast as you can with scvs first and circle the bunker before he has a chance to send SCVs to repair. If he doesn't have a bunker, it shouldn't be too hard to kill him. Strength and weekness of the build :It hits extremely hard, with about 9 marines and 12 SCV. If your opponent has never seen this build and doesn't expect it, he WILL lose. It is extremely easy to pull-off (plat level mecanics, 0 strategy involved) If scouted, you will die a horrible death vs anyone (except vs protoss, they have to pull some decent micro to beat you even when scouted). Susceptible to being harrassed with scouting worker Replays : Trolling the ProsI said GM in my title when I am only rank 1 Master because I like provocative thread Titles ^^ I meant that I just play at a GM level (even match vs most of the GMs I have played) because you can't really get in the GM league right now Here are a couple of my victims in one afternoon : KrasS (GM rank 15) : + Show Spoiler +(M) ToD (GM rank 19) : + Show Spoiler +Mondragon (GM rank 21) : + Show Spoiler +mTwRINE (GM rank 25) : + Show Spoiler +RGICytoplasm (GM rank 50) : + Show Spoiler +Siw (GM rank 60): + Show Spoiler +WarLord (GM rank 65) : + Show Spoiler +CN!MoMaN (GM rank 80) : + Show Spoiler +RAZERservyoa (GM rank 80) : + Show Spoiler +AiSeiplo (GM rank 90) : + Show Spoiler +VirusLaukyo (GM rank 110) : + Show Spoiler +NaViSlaViK (GM rank 111) : + Show Spoiler +Me losing (how to counter this):Warning, some of these replays, I might have screwed up, or bad positions or people might just know about his build and blind counter it. This is just an indication of how to deal with it. vs Protoss : + Show Spoiler +MYMSaSe (GM ~rank 25) He chronoes out sentries More replays coming soon vs Terran : + Show Spoiler + Just get a bunker and repair it ^^ Replays coming soon
vs Zerg : + Show Spoiler +RGICytoplasm (GM ~rank110) He gets ultra fast banelings More replays coming soon Conclusion :I had fun trolling a couple pro players in my one day of laddering as Terran. I am aware that I probably won't be able to win anymore games against pros once I post this, but I have a couple of hard weeks of work ahead of me, and I decided to post this so as to not be tempted to spend whole days laddering ^^ As a protoss player, I feel this strategy is the easiest and most effective cheese in the game. It takes little to no skill and can beat just about anyone (see replays). Try to have a friend perform it on you, I took about 15 games before understanding how to deal with it. The bottom wall-in makes it impossible for your opponent to scout you, and he is basicaly playing in the dark until 9 marines and 12 SCVs come knocking at his door Have fun with it (if you plan to use it) and as always, feel free to leave comments (I've been called a cheesing noob on the ladder all day, i can take it here as well ^^) You can also feel free to tell me I'm awesome btw (<3) So get to your masters league and then people will crush this build over and over until you get demoted. I'm trying to understand the mindset of these "DO X to easily get to master league". Threads like these are starting to remind me of bad weight loss commercials that encourage you to stop wasting time on excercise and just start taking their pill once a day. This is so hurtful to this game, "Hey go mass games playing like an ass-hat so you can get some self-worth. Its a terrible approach and you should be embarassed as an OP. Why cant you just claim, [D} New TvP build? I dont get why people have to take it a step farther and say "HEY GUESS WHAT BRONZES, TIME TO GET PROMOTED. If you want to be truly good and stay in your masters league, do not follow this build. Play standard and work your mechanics up. Not only will you eventully get to masters(training hard enough) You will actully earn "masters" and be able to stay there. I dont mean to come off so harsh, but theres like 10 of these threads now and its just a terrible approach to the mindset of the game. I mean who works hard to get better at this game anyway right?
Hey calm down, you have an opinion on the matter but no need to be rude about it.
Here are some elements of response :
1)Some people want to just have fun with the game, and an easy strat that lets you play with the pros is LOADS of fun ^^ The feeling you get when you meet your first pro on the ladder is just great. My first pro was Adelscott ! (but then he disconected 7 seconds inton the game )
2)Cheesing your way up the ladder is good thing. This might be contreversial but I truly believe in it. When I started playing, I was total garbage (cooper league). Then you know what i did ? ONLY korean 4wg in ALL matchups. I reached very high diamond like top100 in point and near top 200 in MMR (diamond was top league at that time) doing ONLY this.
Then I got tired of it, and started to learn the game playing macro games. Guess what ? I didn't fall all the way back down to bronze. in fact I didn't even lose that many games.
Playing with people loads better than you is what makes you become better. Cheesing teaches you a lot about the game, you need to know metagame timings, have decent micro, etc...
Fun fact, yesterday when doing my cheese run into GM, I mistakingly took protoss instead of terran. I just went for a normal macro game and I won vs a top1 Master player.
TL; DR : Cheesing is a good way to become better at the game
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This is extremely hard to hold as Zerg since, as Idra has pointed out several times, there is now way of knowing for the Zerg if T has between 1-5 rax. And aside from Tal'darim potentially, you don't have enough time to make a sufficiently large army (you kinda need blings i think, which means you have to correctly guess your tech path) .
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On May 16 2011 10:31 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 10:14 101toss wrote:This guy does a slightly similar build: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/221172249310- Supply (bottom of the ramp) 12- Rax (wall off bottom of the ramp) 14- Rax 14- Rrax 15- OC 17- (drop supply on the supply depot at the bottom of the ramp) I feel the OP's build is weaker in that it cuts worker count for the same timing (both OC's on 15). I've experimented with 11 rack 14 racks 14 racks build, but it delays the marines by a lot (more than 30 secs)... My build lets you produce non stop marines off 3 racks. Building 2 racks a bit later just means you'll have a bit less marines (but a bit more SCVs...). I suppose it's a bit less all in, but I reckon it's all in enough to want more rines instead. Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 10:22 RineTS wrote: I knew it was coming because every time I saw Wall-In on low ground on Delta it was Rine/SCV All-in but its always stronger than expected (last time was few month ago) and as you said Protoss still needs very good micro.
Yeah, I think as a rule we should always expect cheese when faced with a low ground wall-in. However, it's hard to know what to do, Terran could just about be doing anything : double gas tech, 1 rax FE, etc... If you commit too much to stopping a push that is not coming, it can put you behind in the mid game.
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On May 16 2011 15:44 meatpudding wrote: Can you explain why you build the OC instead of a supply depot?
Yes : The OC costs about as much as a supply depot (with lost mining time). At first I was building supply depots, but then I managed to fit an OC in the build without delaying my marines. The OC has won me 2 or 3 extra games where I manage to kill almost everything the opponent has, but lose all my scv and marines. You can throw down a MULE right before you reach their base, and then once the attack is over, you have another 6-7 marines to go finish him off. Also vs terran it is mandatory in island maps if he lifts up. You need MULE to destroy him in econ.
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the replay against mondragon was the best lol
Mondragon: it takes some mroe minutes to begin anyways Mondragon: so that fits well :D the Geiko: yes the Geiko: i might last for 45 mins? the Geiko: who knows? :S
sneaky lol so sneaky XD
EDIT: seems like a great build...although a transition is needed if it get's scouted...maybe cancel a rax and go 2 rax FE? you would be behind 5 workers XD and this build won't work on maps with entrances blocked by a supply depot
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I played you twice yesterday and I lost twice tt . 2* -15. This build requires no skill and is stupidly hard to hold off.
Edit: I am toss btw. Even when toss scouts it, it is still very tough. I think chronoed stalkers +walloff with gates is the best solution (as Geiko pointed me out yesterday).
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On May 16 2011 15:54 IzieBoy wrote: the replay against mondragon was the best lol
Mondragon: it takes some mroe minutes to begin anyways Mondragon: so that fits well :D the Geiko: yes the Geiko: i might last for 45 mins? the Geiko: who knows? :S
sneaky lol so sneaky XD
EDIT: seems like a great build...although a transition is needed if it get's scouted...maybe cancel a rax and go 2 rax FE? you would be behind 5 workers XD and this build won't work on maps with entrances blocked by a supply depot
the MoMaN one is pretty funny too basicaly I am telling him in French : me "I just beat Mondragon !" he asks me "how ?" me : "I just cheesed him with some marines"
me (during the attack) : "kind of like this ! ^^"
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On May 16 2011 15:06 Geiko wrote:My win rate with this is pretty high (something like 3/1) and I am having trouble finding replays of me losing to people who've never played me (I lose plenty to people that I meet twice). Here is one I'll add to OP : MYMSaSe (GM ~rank 25) I'll try to find one for each race in the up coming days.
wow that was cool
what was the point of that early pylon next to your rax anyways?
he saw your push with his scouting stalker and was able to perma FF his entrance lol skillz
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On May 16 2011 15:33 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 10:07 Geiko wrote:Good evening TL, A brief introduction, I am geiko, mid-master league protoss (rank 50 in my league average) and very crappy terran player, like plat level. For those of you who don't believe me, i brought a replay of me playing terran against a friend. Warning : its painful to see... I've never played more than a couple of games of terran, usualy in team games. However, I got to here in 2 days : You want to know how I did it ? To reach this level, I just spammed about 60-70 games as Terran doing ONLY the same build. Build order : Three rax before orbital with supply call down. + Show Spoiler + 10 depot at the bottom of the ramp (Rally your 9th worker to the bottom of the ramp) 11 barracks (finish the wall off) cut SCVs at 12 12 barracks at top of ramp (rally your 12th scv to the top of ramp) 12 barracks at top of ramp (pull SCV at 100 minerals to build barracks)
With the the scv making the second barracks, go scout when it is finished. If 2 player map, no need to scout.
12 marine 13 marine 14 marine 15 OC then only marines.
call down supply on your supply depot as soon as you can. The timing should be perfect to allow you to build your 20th supply marine.
clear the watch towers with 2-3 marines then push out with ALL SCVs and marines at about 4:30.
Practise your micro and win ^^
Important details :Practise walling off with supply + barracks : it's not that easy ! Link to a great thread about this by michaelhasanalias : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214208Rally your marines into your base, not at the ramp so scouts cannnot see them. Only rally the marines from the first barracks at your ramp. You NEED map control. Be active with your first marines (clear watch towers, chase scouts etc...) Practise stutter-step micro ! vsProtoss : Try to attack using a different path than the normal attack. Your push has the timing to be intercepted by the zealot + stalker poke and you don't want that (stalkers can kite you all the way back to their base) Try to spot the stalkers with your 2 scout marines and attack with your main army from a different path. While in the protoss base, if he refuses to engage you, take out the pylons as a priority. vsZerg : If you are scouted with overlord, you will need to push a bit more early and try to bunker rush him. Always make the first marine pop INSIDE your wall off (even though it is tempting to go outside to kill the scout). If you pop outside and he has 6 or 7 pooled, you lost the game right there. Engage with SCVs first. vs Terran : This is the hardest matchup. If he scouts you, you are dead 100% (bunker + repair = gg). The key element is surprise. Walk up the ramp as fast as you can with scvs first and circle the bunker before he has a chance to send SCVs to repair. If he doesn't have a bunker, it shouldn't be too hard to kill him. Strength and weekness of the build :It hits extremely hard, with about 9 marines and 12 SCV. If your opponent has never seen this build and doesn't expect it, he WILL lose. It is extremely easy to pull-off (plat level mecanics, 0 strategy involved) If scouted, you will die a horrible death vs anyone (except vs protoss, they have to pull some decent micro to beat you even when scouted). Susceptible to being harrassed with scouting worker Replays : Trolling the ProsI said GM in my title when I am only rank 1 Master because I like provocative thread Titles ^^ I meant that I just play at a GM level (even match vs most of the GMs I have played) because you can't really get in the GM league right now Here are a couple of my victims in one afternoon : KrasS (GM rank 15) : + Show Spoiler +(M) ToD (GM rank 19) : + Show Spoiler +Mondragon (GM rank 21) : + Show Spoiler +mTwRINE (GM rank 25) : + Show Spoiler +RGICytoplasm (GM rank 50) : + Show Spoiler +Siw (GM rank 60): + Show Spoiler +WarLord (GM rank 65) : + Show Spoiler +CN!MoMaN (GM rank 80) : + Show Spoiler +RAZERservyoa (GM rank 80) : + Show Spoiler +AiSeiplo (GM rank 90) : + Show Spoiler +VirusLaukyo (GM rank 110) : + Show Spoiler +NaViSlaViK (GM rank 111) : + Show Spoiler +Me losing (how to counter this):Warning, some of these replays, I might have screwed up, or bad positions or people might just know about his build and blind counter it. This is just an indication of how to deal with it. vs Protoss : + Show Spoiler +MYMSaSe (GM ~rank 25) He chronoes out sentries More replays coming soon vs Terran : + Show Spoiler + Just get a bunker and repair it ^^ Replays coming soon
vs Zerg : + Show Spoiler +RGICytoplasm (GM ~rank110) He gets ultra fast banelings More replays coming soon Conclusion :I had fun trolling a couple pro players in my one day of laddering as Terran. I am aware that I probably won't be able to win anymore games against pros once I post this, but I have a couple of hard weeks of work ahead of me, and I decided to post this so as to not be tempted to spend whole days laddering ^^ As a protoss player, I feel this strategy is the easiest and most effective cheese in the game. It takes little to no skill and can beat just about anyone (see replays). Try to have a friend perform it on you, I took about 15 games before understanding how to deal with it. The bottom wall-in makes it impossible for your opponent to scout you, and he is basicaly playing in the dark until 9 marines and 12 SCVs come knocking at his door Have fun with it (if you plan to use it) and as always, feel free to leave comments (I've been called a cheesing noob on the ladder all day, i can take it here as well ^^) You can also feel free to tell me I'm awesome btw (<3) So get to your masters league and then people will crush this build over and over until you get demoted. I'm trying to understand the mindset of these "DO X to easily get to master league". Threads like these are starting to remind me of bad weight loss commercials that encourage you to stop wasting time on excercise and just start taking their pill once a day. This is so hurtful to this game, "Hey go mass games playing like an ass-hat so you can get some self-worth. Its a terrible approach and you should be embarassed as an OP. Why cant you just claim, [D} New TvP build? I dont get why people have to take it a step farther and say "HEY GUESS WHAT BRONZES, TIME TO GET PROMOTED. If you want to be truly good and stay in your masters league, do not follow this build. Play standard and work your mechanics up. Not only will you eventully get to masters(training hard enough) You will actully earn "masters" and be able to stay there. I dont mean to come off so harsh, but theres like 10 of these threads now and its just a terrible approach to the mindset of the game. I mean who works hard to get better at this game anyway right?
On the contrary, I think him posting was the greatest thing to happen. Imagine if this was hiding in the background with only a few people using it. That doesn't make the possiblity any more real. It just makes it less prevalent, meaning it would show up some other time. By the op posting it publicly, it opens the build up to scrutiny and people can properly figure out counters etc. I think its very productive for the community.
As for your thing on hating threads like this, you obviously didn't get the intent of the post. It wasn't for him to claim that there's an easy way to get to gm. It was just a way to get attention. Obviously it worked, but it's too bad that most people read the title and the first line and assume the rest of the post. Please read and consider. ty =]
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On May 16 2011 15:45 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 15:33 XXXSmOke wrote:On May 16 2011 10:07 Geiko wrote:Good evening TL, A brief introduction, I am geiko, mid-master league protoss (rank 50 in my league average) and very crappy terran player, like plat level. For those of you who don't believe me, i brought a replay of me playing terran against a friend. Warning : its painful to see... I've never played more than a couple of games of terran, usualy in team games. However, I got to here in 2 days : You want to know how I did it ? To reach this level, I just spammed about 60-70 games as Terran doing ONLY the same build. Build order : Three rax before orbital with supply call down. + Show Spoiler + 10 depot at the bottom of the ramp (Rally your 9th worker to the bottom of the ramp) 11 barracks (finish the wall off) cut SCVs at 12 12 barracks at top of ramp (rally your 12th scv to the top of ramp) 12 barracks at top of ramp (pull SCV at 100 minerals to build barracks)
With the the scv making the second barracks, go scout when it is finished. If 2 player map, no need to scout.
12 marine 13 marine 14 marine 15 OC then only marines.
call down supply on your supply depot as soon as you can. The timing should be perfect to allow you to build your 20th supply marine.
clear the watch towers with 2-3 marines then push out with ALL SCVs and marines at about 4:30.
Practise your micro and win ^^
Important details :Practise walling off with supply + barracks : it's not that easy ! Link to a great thread about this by michaelhasanalias : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214208Rally your marines into your base, not at the ramp so scouts cannnot see them. Only rally the marines from the first barracks at your ramp. You NEED map control. Be active with your first marines (clear watch towers, chase scouts etc...) Practise stutter-step micro ! vsProtoss : Try to attack using a different path than the normal attack. Your push has the timing to be intercepted by the zealot + stalker poke and you don't want that (stalkers can kite you all the way back to their base) Try to spot the stalkers with your 2 scout marines and attack with your main army from a different path. While in the protoss base, if he refuses to engage you, take out the pylons as a priority. vsZerg : If you are scouted with overlord, you will need to push a bit more early and try to bunker rush him. Always make the first marine pop INSIDE your wall off (even though it is tempting to go outside to kill the scout). If you pop outside and he has 6 or 7 pooled, you lost the game right there. Engage with SCVs first. vs Terran : This is the hardest matchup. If he scouts you, you are dead 100% (bunker + repair = gg). The key element is surprise. Walk up the ramp as fast as you can with scvs first and circle the bunker before he has a chance to send SCVs to repair. If he doesn't have a bunker, it shouldn't be too hard to kill him. Strength and weekness of the build :It hits extremely hard, with about 9 marines and 12 SCV. If your opponent has never seen this build and doesn't expect it, he WILL lose. It is extremely easy to pull-off (plat level mecanics, 0 strategy involved) If scouted, you will die a horrible death vs anyone (except vs protoss, they have to pull some decent micro to beat you even when scouted). Susceptible to being harrassed with scouting worker Replays : Trolling the ProsI said GM in my title when I am only rank 1 Master because I like provocative thread Titles ^^ I meant that I just play at a GM level (even match vs most of the GMs I have played) because you can't really get in the GM league right now Here are a couple of my victims in one afternoon : KrasS (GM rank 15) : + Show Spoiler +(M) ToD (GM rank 19) : + Show Spoiler +Mondragon (GM rank 21) : + Show Spoiler +mTwRINE (GM rank 25) : + Show Spoiler +RGICytoplasm (GM rank 50) : + Show Spoiler +Siw (GM rank 60): + Show Spoiler +WarLord (GM rank 65) : + Show Spoiler +CN!MoMaN (GM rank 80) : + Show Spoiler +RAZERservyoa (GM rank 80) : + Show Spoiler +AiSeiplo (GM rank 90) : + Show Spoiler +VirusLaukyo (GM rank 110) : + Show Spoiler +NaViSlaViK (GM rank 111) : + Show Spoiler +Me losing (how to counter this):Warning, some of these replays, I might have screwed up, or bad positions or people might just know about his build and blind counter it. This is just an indication of how to deal with it. vs Protoss : + Show Spoiler +MYMSaSe (GM ~rank 25) He chronoes out sentries More replays coming soon vs Terran : + Show Spoiler + Just get a bunker and repair it ^^ Replays coming soon
vs Zerg : + Show Spoiler +RGICytoplasm (GM ~rank110) He gets ultra fast banelings More replays coming soon Conclusion :I had fun trolling a couple pro players in my one day of laddering as Terran. I am aware that I probably won't be able to win anymore games against pros once I post this, but I have a couple of hard weeks of work ahead of me, and I decided to post this so as to not be tempted to spend whole days laddering ^^ As a protoss player, I feel this strategy is the easiest and most effective cheese in the game. It takes little to no skill and can beat just about anyone (see replays). Try to have a friend perform it on you, I took about 15 games before understanding how to deal with it. The bottom wall-in makes it impossible for your opponent to scout you, and he is basicaly playing in the dark until 9 marines and 12 SCVs come knocking at his door Have fun with it (if you plan to use it) and as always, feel free to leave comments (I've been called a cheesing noob on the ladder all day, i can take it here as well ^^) You can also feel free to tell me I'm awesome btw (<3) So get to your masters league and then people will crush this build over and over until you get demoted. I'm trying to understand the mindset of these "DO X to easily get to master league". Threads like these are starting to remind me of bad weight loss commercials that encourage you to stop wasting time on excercise and just start taking their pill once a day. This is so hurtful to this game, "Hey go mass games playing like an ass-hat so you can get some self-worth. Its a terrible approach and you should be embarassed as an OP. Why cant you just claim, [D} New TvP build? I dont get why people have to take it a step farther and say "HEY GUESS WHAT BRONZES, TIME TO GET PROMOTED. If you want to be truly good and stay in your masters league, do not follow this build. Play standard and work your mechanics up. Not only will you eventully get to masters(training hard enough) You will actully earn "masters" and be able to stay there. I dont mean to come off so harsh, but theres like 10 of these threads now and its just a terrible approach to the mindset of the game. I mean who works hard to get better at this game anyway right? Hey calm down, you have an opinion on the matter but no need to be rude about it. Here are some elements of response : 1)Some people want to just have fun with the game, and an easy strat that lets you play with the pros is LOADS of fun ^^ The feeling you get when you meet your first pro on the ladder is just great. My first pro was Adelscott ! (but then he disconected 7 seconds inton the game ) 2)Cheesing your way up the ladder is good thing. This might be contreversial but I truly believe in it. When I started playing, I was total garbage (cooper league). Then you know what i did ? ONLY korean 4wg in ALL matchups. I reached very high diamond like top100 in point and near top 200 in MMR (diamond was top league at that time) doing ONLY this. Then I got tired of it, and started to learn the game playing macro games. Guess what ? I didn't fall all the way back down to bronze. in fact I didn't even lose that many games. Playing with people loads better than you is what makes you become better. Cheesing teaches you a lot about the game, you need to know metagame timings, have decent micro, etc... Fun fact, yesterday when doing my cheese run into GM, I mistakingly took protoss instead of terran. I just went for a normal macro game and I won vs a top1 Master player. TL; DR : Cheesing is a good way to become better at the game
I agree that playing with better people makes you a better player, but by doing cheese(which really only helps a very small portion of your game) you are not getting any better because you are doing the same 1 base build every time.
Most people want to people of the same skill, I dont know anybody who wants to 1v1 all day and get smashed the entire day, not to mention just doing a coin flip build all day as well.
It is fun to run into the pros, but its pretty stupid when all you have is a cheesy build to offfer. Play standard see how well you can match up. That is where you learn the most. By matching standard build vs standard build you start to see all the little things that makes them a pro and you an average player. Thus, you learn where to improve and what things are missing from your game.
Cheesing is not a good way to become better at this game, you can read every interview of the "Pros" that you think are so fun to play agaisnt and not a single one will say "Well if your looking to get better at this game then you should start by cheesing every game." They will say the opposite, work on your macro/mechanics/decision making.'
TL: DR If you want to become better at this game, don't give into cheesing every game, play standard and work on your macro/mechanics/decision making.
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On May 16 2011 10:29 theBIGdog wrote: yet another strategy guide on how to abuse the best unit in the game
User was temp banned from strategy forum for this post.
SCVs?
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On May 16 2011 16:07 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 15:45 Geiko wrote:On May 16 2011 15:33 XXXSmOke wrote:On May 16 2011 10:07 Geiko wrote:Good evening TL, A brief introduction, I am geiko, mid-master league protoss (rank 50 in my league average) and very crappy terran player, like plat level. For those of you who don't believe me, i brought a replay of me playing terran against a friend. Warning : its painful to see... I've never played more than a couple of games of terran, usualy in team games. However, I got to here in 2 days : You want to know how I did it ? To reach this level, I just spammed about 60-70 games as Terran doing ONLY the same build. Build order : Three rax before orbital with supply call down. + Show Spoiler + 10 depot at the bottom of the ramp (Rally your 9th worker to the bottom of the ramp) 11 barracks (finish the wall off) cut SCVs at 12 12 barracks at top of ramp (rally your 12th scv to the top of ramp) 12 barracks at top of ramp (pull SCV at 100 minerals to build barracks)
With the the scv making the second barracks, go scout when it is finished. If 2 player map, no need to scout.
12 marine 13 marine 14 marine 15 OC then only marines.
call down supply on your supply depot as soon as you can. The timing should be perfect to allow you to build your 20th supply marine.
clear the watch towers with 2-3 marines then push out with ALL SCVs and marines at about 4:30.
Practise your micro and win ^^
Important details :Practise walling off with supply + barracks : it's not that easy ! Link to a great thread about this by michaelhasanalias : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214208Rally your marines into your base, not at the ramp so scouts cannnot see them. Only rally the marines from the first barracks at your ramp. You NEED map control. Be active with your first marines (clear watch towers, chase scouts etc...) Practise stutter-step micro ! vsProtoss : Try to attack using a different path than the normal attack. Your push has the timing to be intercepted by the zealot + stalker poke and you don't want that (stalkers can kite you all the way back to their base) Try to spot the stalkers with your 2 scout marines and attack with your main army from a different path. While in the protoss base, if he refuses to engage you, take out the pylons as a priority. vsZerg : If you are scouted with overlord, you will need to push a bit more early and try to bunker rush him. Always make the first marine pop INSIDE your wall off (even though it is tempting to go outside to kill the scout). If you pop outside and he has 6 or 7 pooled, you lost the game right there. Engage with SCVs first. vs Terran : This is the hardest matchup. If he scouts you, you are dead 100% (bunker + repair = gg). The key element is surprise. Walk up the ramp as fast as you can with scvs first and circle the bunker before he has a chance to send SCVs to repair. If he doesn't have a bunker, it shouldn't be too hard to kill him. Strength and weekness of the build :It hits extremely hard, with about 9 marines and 12 SCV. If your opponent has never seen this build and doesn't expect it, he WILL lose. It is extremely easy to pull-off (plat level mecanics, 0 strategy involved) If scouted, you will die a horrible death vs anyone (except vs protoss, they have to pull some decent micro to beat you even when scouted). Susceptible to being harrassed with scouting worker Replays : Trolling the ProsI said GM in my title when I am only rank 1 Master because I like provocative thread Titles ^^ I meant that I just play at a GM level (even match vs most of the GMs I have played) because you can't really get in the GM league right now Here are a couple of my victims in one afternoon : KrasS (GM rank 15) : + Show Spoiler +(M) ToD (GM rank 19) : + Show Spoiler +Mondragon (GM rank 21) : + Show Spoiler +mTwRINE (GM rank 25) : + Show Spoiler +RGICytoplasm (GM rank 50) : + Show Spoiler +Siw (GM rank 60): + Show Spoiler +WarLord (GM rank 65) : + Show Spoiler +CN!MoMaN (GM rank 80) : + Show Spoiler +RAZERservyoa (GM rank 80) : + Show Spoiler +AiSeiplo (GM rank 90) : + Show Spoiler +VirusLaukyo (GM rank 110) : + Show Spoiler +NaViSlaViK (GM rank 111) : + Show Spoiler +Me losing (how to counter this):Warning, some of these replays, I might have screwed up, or bad positions or people might just know about his build and blind counter it. This is just an indication of how to deal with it. vs Protoss : + Show Spoiler +MYMSaSe (GM ~rank 25) He chronoes out sentries More replays coming soon vs Terran : + Show Spoiler + Just get a bunker and repair it ^^ Replays coming soon
vs Zerg : + Show Spoiler +RGICytoplasm (GM ~rank110) He gets ultra fast banelings More replays coming soon Conclusion :I had fun trolling a couple pro players in my one day of laddering as Terran. I am aware that I probably won't be able to win anymore games against pros once I post this, but I have a couple of hard weeks of work ahead of me, and I decided to post this so as to not be tempted to spend whole days laddering ^^ As a protoss player, I feel this strategy is the easiest and most effective cheese in the game. It takes little to no skill and can beat just about anyone (see replays). Try to have a friend perform it on you, I took about 15 games before understanding how to deal with it. The bottom wall-in makes it impossible for your opponent to scout you, and he is basicaly playing in the dark until 9 marines and 12 SCVs come knocking at his door Have fun with it (if you plan to use it) and as always, feel free to leave comments (I've been called a cheesing noob on the ladder all day, i can take it here as well ^^) You can also feel free to tell me I'm awesome btw (<3) So get to your masters league and then people will crush this build over and over until you get demoted. I'm trying to understand the mindset of these "DO X to easily get to master league". Threads like these are starting to remind me of bad weight loss commercials that encourage you to stop wasting time on excercise and just start taking their pill once a day. This is so hurtful to this game, "Hey go mass games playing like an ass-hat so you can get some self-worth. Its a terrible approach and you should be embarassed as an OP. Why cant you just claim, [D} New TvP build? I dont get why people have to take it a step farther and say "HEY GUESS WHAT BRONZES, TIME TO GET PROMOTED. If you want to be truly good and stay in your masters league, do not follow this build. Play standard and work your mechanics up. Not only will you eventully get to masters(training hard enough) You will actully earn "masters" and be able to stay there. I dont mean to come off so harsh, but theres like 10 of these threads now and its just a terrible approach to the mindset of the game. I mean who works hard to get better at this game anyway right? Hey calm down, you have an opinion on the matter but no need to be rude about it. Here are some elements of response : 1)Some people want to just have fun with the game, and an easy strat that lets you play with the pros is LOADS of fun ^^ The feeling you get when you meet your first pro on the ladder is just great. My first pro was Adelscott ! (but then he disconected 7 seconds inton the game ) 2)Cheesing your way up the ladder is good thing. This might be contreversial but I truly believe in it. When I started playing, I was total garbage (cooper league). Then you know what i did ? ONLY korean 4wg in ALL matchups. I reached very high diamond like top100 in point and near top 200 in MMR (diamond was top league at that time) doing ONLY this. Then I got tired of it, and started to learn the game playing macro games. Guess what ? I didn't fall all the way back down to bronze. in fact I didn't even lose that many games. Playing with people loads better than you is what makes you become better. Cheesing teaches you a lot about the game, you need to know metagame timings, have decent micro, etc... Fun fact, yesterday when doing my cheese run into GM, I mistakingly took protoss instead of terran. I just went for a normal macro game and I won vs a top1 Master player. TL; DR : Cheesing is a good way to become better at the game I agree that playing with better people makes you a better player, but by doing cheese(which really only helps a very small portion of your game) you are not getting any better because you are doing the same 1 base build every time. Most people want to people of the same skill, I dont know anybody who wants to 1v1 all day and get smashed the entire day, not to mention just doing a coin flip build all day as well. It is fun to run into the pros, but its pretty stupid when all you have is a cheesy build to offfer. Play standard see how well you can match up. That is where you learn the most. By matching standard build vs standard build you start to see all the little things that makes them a pro and you an average player. Thus, you learn where to improve and what things are missing from your game. Cheesing is not a good way to become better at this game, you can read every interview of the "Pros" that you think are so fun to play agaisnt and not a single one will say "Well if your looking to get better at this game then you should start by cheesing every game." They will say the opposite, work on your macro/mechanics/decision making.' TL: DR If you want to become better at this game, don't give into cheesing every game, play standard and work on your macro/mechanics/decision making.
We'll just have to disagree on this one . I tell all my friends who are new to the game to start off by cheesing. For protoss for example I tell them : do a perfect 4 gate vs every race. Once you'll manage to have 6 stalkers and 1 zealot at the opponent's base at 5:50 every single time, We'll start talking strategy. And when they do succeed in 4 gating, they are already plat/diamond and then have no problem learning about the game. I tried teaching people with the classic "Macro" method. (always have less then 500 ressource, constant worker production, constant production facilities use) but I just doesn't work. They remain stuck in bronze because they keep on getting cheesed, and they don't learn anything. Cheesing up the ladder, then learning to play is the way to go.
However this method does not apply to people who don't like losing. Personaly, i have no problem just getting smashed by people better than me 20 times in a row for the sake of learning, but not everyone is like this
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On May 16 2011 15:45 Geiko wrote:
2)Cheesing your way up the ladder is good thing. This might be contreversial but I truly believe in it. When I started playing, I was total garbage (cooper league). Then you know what i did ? ONLY korean 4wg in ALL matchups. I reached very high diamond like top100 in point and near top 200 in MMR (diamond was top league at that time) doing ONLY this.
Then I got tired of it, and started to learn the game playing macro games. Guess what ? I didn't fall all the way back down to bronze. in fact I didn't even lose that many games.
Playing with people loads better than you is what makes you become better. Cheesing teaches you a lot about the game, you need to know metagame timings, have decent micro, etc...
Fun fact, yesterday when doing my cheese run into GM, I mistakingly took protoss instead of terran. I just went for a normal macro game and I won vs a top1 Master player.
TL; DR : Cheesing is a good way to become better at the game
Yep.. it definitely is... very important to be familiar with all the timings...
however... korean 4 wg into diamond...lol... i mean it's a very good cheese but a tad tedious maybe? lol i've like played only 50 games 1v1 since and already find it quite boring (tried most of the cheeses to get fastest timing as well as some weird unit combination plays)... 3v3 is more fun (plus you can see what your all-in looks like with what your ally has to get a good idea of the strategy and make revisions on the spot...i heard somewhere that it's bad to make revisions on the spot somewhere and to look at replays and redo, but fast revisions speeds up learning time). also teamwork adds a cool aspect....err well it could also be that i'm just a lazy gamer and having great teammates cuts some slack on my messups lol (plus my pride is hurt more in a 1v1...while in a 3v3, although i can't openly admit it, deep down i prolly am putting some blame on my teammates so it feels less painful lol...)
anyways, you sir have got both brains and discipline...
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