Hello fellow TLers, I am 4K.Warden from 4Kings. I am a top 20 NA grandmaster terran player with a current record of 332-128. I have recently started streaming and viewers have asked me about my TvP build, as I mainly use biomech "Terran Death Ball" army as opposed to the conventional MMM viking army composition in TvP. Thus I have decided to make a comprehensive guide about it. I have enjoyed extreme success (~80% win rate) with this build against top tier protoss players and I believe it is one of the strongest/safest build with ample harass opportunities. Please note that I have another account named REQchbeubc.503 and you may see some replays played on this account.
This build consists of a mix of several bio and mech units, including marines, marauders, blue flame hellions, tanks, a raven, medivacs and vikings with eventual addition of ghosts with third expansion. Throughout my encounters vs protoss players, I found that my opponents were able to counter my army composition too easily with the scouting information provided by the observers. Furthermore, most would blindly build colossus and gateway mix and still manage to overrun my MMM ghost viking army with little effort. So I was thinking, terran’s got these great mix of units, why not incorporate all of them for a strong, healthy composition of units (aka Terran Death Ball)? The strong point of this build is that it is cheese-proof, and very difficult for protoss players to counter with conventional builds. Also it is extremely well-versed in both the colossus based and HT based builds.Lastly, 1:1:1 build allows for strong timing pushes against several of protoss player’s builds that can win the game outright.
10 depot 12 barrack 13 gas 13 Send a scv for scout, and make sure that it does not die. It will act as an important scout for checking to see if protoss player takes an early second gas. 15 orbital 16 second depot Produce 3 marines from barrack 19 Build factory 21 Build a bunker in front of ramp, if close position spawn, build at 19 21 Grab second gas (If protoss player steals gas, build 5 marines then build reactor and grab second gas as soon as possible) After 3 marines are produced, add a reactor onto the barrack When factory is completed, immediately produce a hellion, add a tech lab onto the factory and build a starport.
This is the end of the build order as far as specificity is concerned. As I consider TvP to be a reactionary match up, one has to scout and counter what his/her opponent is doing and I will attempt to lay out the possibilities and solutions to the protoss builds in a case by case basis. As soon as the hellion is produced, send it for scout. This first hellion scout is integral for gauging what the protoss player is doing. Depending on what the hellion scouts, my build would branch out into several openings heading into mid game. In addition, if we manage to take a route around protoss player’s scouting stalker, one hellion is capable of dealing catastrophic damage. Please take a look at replay #1 below for example.
Note: I managed to sneak out my hellion away from the protoss player’s 1 zealot 1 stalker scout, and the result is devastating for him. He ends up rage-quitting with +10 probes dead.
The initial phase of scouting begins with the scouting scv. The things to look out for are the timing of second gas, energy left on nexus as well as pylon placements. Early second gas would mean that the player would be going some kind of tech, saving up enery on nexus would mean some type of early pressure by the protoss player, since the chronoboost would be used on production buildlings whether it be used on warpgate or stargate, etc. It is also important to scout all around his base for pylon placements as there is a good chance he would hide his tech near those pylons built earlier. And the scouting hellion can revisit those areas. These are the things to be reminded of when scouting with a scv. The scv scout allows us to narrow down the range of possible strategies that could be employed by the protoss player. The first hellion scout would provide more definitive proof of what the opponent is going to do.
Here are the possibilities that we would encounter after the scouting scv and hellion.
Possibility #1: The scv scouts no second gas and a lot of energy left on nexus. The first hellion scouts no second gas, and no expansion and 4 gate or just 1 gate. + Show Spoiler +
This means 4 gate or 1 gate with hidden 3 gate, so immediately put down a second bunker. Produce marines from barrack, tanks from factory, add a tech lab onto the starport and produce banshees. Also have a few scvs on stand-by around the bunkers with an auto-repair turned on. 4 gate is rather easy to defend against using 1:1:1 build. Please refer to replays#2, #3 and #4 below for proper response vs 4 gate build.
Note: I scouted early 2nd gas with a scouting scv and subsequent hellion scouted 3 gate and couldn’t see the 4th gate. So I thought he was going 3 gate void ray all in and made vikings, tanks with siege mode and marines. As it turns out, he was going for a 4 gate all in with sentries but I fended it off successfully nevertheless. FYI, I got matched with this guy like 4 times and all 4 games he went early 2nd gas with 4 gate. (Yup guys he’s a GM 4 gater...)
Note: My scv scouted no 2nd gas with a lot of energy saved up on nexus. I can pretty much assume he’s 4 gating. I confirm my suspicion with scouting hellion, while killing 6 probes and forcing 1 stalker to spawn in his base. In the mean time, I immediately wall off with 2nd bunker and make marines, tanks and banshees with 3 scvs on auto repair near the bunkers. The protoss player 4 gate pushes nevertheless, commenting “gg mr terran immune to anything” and leaves the game.
Note: The protoss player attempts to fake a 2nd gas into a 4 gate. This is why you must scout additionally with a hellion. Upon scouting 4 gate, immediately make 2nd bunker to finish wall off and produce marines, tanks and banshees. He tries to contain me with some stalkers and sentries, so I slowly leap frog with siege tanks into expansion and he ragequits.
Possibility #2: The scv or the first hellion scouts no second gas and 1 gate cybercore into fast expansion. + Show Spoiler +
The protoss player is being very greedy here and deserves to be punished. Upon scouting this, immediately build an armory. We are going to go for a thor all-in. Continue to produce marines out of reactored barrack and as soon as first thor is out, push with the thor, all the marines you have and about ~12 scvs with auto-repair. With decent micro (stutter step marine micro, surround the scvs on the thor and focus fire on immortals first), this is a free win for the terran player! Please refer to replay #5 below for proper response vs 1 gate cybercore fast expansion, or nexus first builds. UPDATE: Thor all ins are only recommended in mid-sized maps including cross position spawns. In a big maps such as taldarim altar, against 1 gate expo or 15 nexus, go with 1/1/1 build then stop unit production for a relatively fast expansion. You might be behind in economy but definitely ahead in tech. And with this advantage you control the tempo of the game with ample harass opportunities. (banshee harass, hellion drop play, etc).
Note: The protoss player does a risky build: He puts down 1 gate cybercore into FE in my face while my scv is still scouting in his base. I decide to thor all in him. With ~12 scvs on auto repair, marines and thor, push for an easy win.
Possibility #3: The scv scouts early second gas (second gas already mining) and a lot of energy left on nexus. And the first hellion scouts 3 gate in protoss player’s base. + Show Spoiler +
This would most definitely mean a 3 gate with proxied stargate all in play, so immediately start researching siege mode, produce tanks from factory, marines from barrack and vikings from starport. Defend by taking full advantage of longer range that viking has against the void ray and hold off the push until siege mode research is completed. Once siege mode is complete, it is rather easy to defend this push and expand into the normal mid game play (explained later in the guide). Successful defense vs 3 gate void ray push would put back the protoss player behind economically, so we will be very much ahead heading into mid game. Please refer to replay #6 and #7 below for proper response vs 3 gate 1 stargate all in.
Note:Please don’t mind my comments in the game!!! I was just trolling rsvp Anyways, it is a close spawn position in shattered temple. His early 2nd gas is scouted with my scv and hellion scouts 2 gate. I realize something is up and immediately make a blind viking, tank and marine production. After viking is finished, I put down tech lab to make raven to defend against possibility of DTs. In the mean time, I scout possible proxy locations for stargate with my viking. He shows up with void ray and stalker combo so I continue making viking, tanks and marines and prepare for expansion. I am ahead with successful defense against his push. Then it goes into a mid game where I build up the “Terran Death Ball” army and crush him for the win.
Note: It is a cross spawn position in shattered temple. I scout his early 2nd gas with my scv and hellion scouts 3 gate. I realize its either 3 gate + stargate or 3 gate DT into expansion. His void ray shows up and warps in 2 zealots into my base. So I immediately make viking, tanks and marines with pulling of some scvs. Eventhough he did some damage with this push, I defend it successfully and end up being ahead by 15 food. He expands and attacks for a timing push with immortals and stalkers but it is handled with relative ease. In the meantime, I continue to mass up “Terran Death Ball”. He is way behind at this point and comes with 5 collosus and a bunch of stalkers for my third but is stomped and leaves without a gg.
Possibility #4: The scv scouts early second gas (second gas already mining) and a lot of energy left on nexus. Then the hellion scouts either 1 or 2 gate into stargate and production of phoenix. (You can see this from the stargate animation). + Show Spoiler +
Upon seeing production of phoenix, or a flock of phoenix scouting our main base, we need to immediately put down armory and engineering bay for production of thors and turrets. Also build a CC inside the main base. Build one turret in the middle of mineral line and another barrack. Continue to produce marines, thors and medivac/viking. When you have two thors, go for an all in push with all your units plus ~12 scvs. Most likely he/she would’ve expanded and will die to this push as phoenixes are useless to both thors and marines (and not enough time to tech to collosus or whatnot). If he didn’t expand, go back to your base and get even more ahead economically and prepare for mid-late game composition shown later in the guide. Please refer to replay #8 below for proper response vs phoenix opening.
Note: It is close by air position in shattered temple. My scv scouts nothing out of the ordinary but he denies my scouting hellion with a zealot and a stalker. I realize something’s up and immediately make viking, tank and marines. My next move would’ve been to make a raven, but he shows up with 3 flying phoenixes in my base. I immediately make an armory and CC in my main. Another thing I should’ve done is to make an engineering bay and build a turret in each of my mineral line. In any case, the proper response is to go for an EEEE HAN TIMING with 2 thors, a lot of marines, viking and medivacs with ~15 scvs for an easy win.
Possibility #5: The scv scouts early second gas and not much energy left on nexus and the first hellion scouts 3 gate. + Show Spoiler +
This would most likely mean 3 gate DT into expand opening, as chronoboost can’t be used to speed up the building construction time. So we can deduce that the opponent is probably going for some type of tech play while chronoboosting on nexus for probe production. There is a chance that it could be 3 gate void ray all in, so check around possible stargate proxy location near your base with a hellion or scv. If there’s no proxy stargate, immediately wall off the ramp with depot, produce a raven, and continue to produce tanks with siege mode and marines and make a CC in your base. Also build an engineering bay for turret in the mineral line. Soon enough, the protoss player will poke in up the ramp with a DT. That’s the cue from the protoss player gently reminding us that he/she is ready to be pwned. Upon seeing the DT, immediately go for an all in with every unit you have with ~12 scvs. The protoss player will not have enough army to deal with your army as he teched too heavily in one base. Please refer to replays #9, #10, #11 and #12 below for proper response vs 3 gate DT into expand opening.
Note: It is cross spawn position in backwater gulch. I actually played him two games that day on the same position of the same map. First game I lost to his DT into expansion build. Eventhough he denied my scouting hellion, I was trying to be greedy/aggressive and built a banshee rather than a raven. Needless to say, the right move should’ve been to play safe and produce a viking followed by raven right away. Second game, he chose to get early second gas and denied my scouting hellion like in the first game. So I scouted around with my scv for possible proxy stargate locations around my base, but found none. Since it is cross position, there’s no way he would build stargate in his base for an all in. I deduced that he is going DT into expansion again and built a raven right away. At the same time, I continue to build marines and tanks and build a CC. As expected, DT shows up the ramp and that’s all the cue I need. With all my army and ~12 scvs, I go for a timing push into his base. He manages to feedback my raven but I have plenty of scans from 2 orbitals to detect against DTs. He ggs and leaves the game.
Note:WARNING!! The protoss player ragequits with racist comments. Viewer discretion is advised Anyways, I scout early gas with scv and 1 robo and 2 gate with scouting hellion. I deduce that he’s going with a safe build and start making CC with marines, tanks and banshees. As shown in possibility #8 below, I start to gear up for production of “Terran Death Ball”. He shows up with a warp prism and drops DTs into my base. However, production of raven is integrated into my build and his warp prism DT play is not effective whatsoever. He has the audacity to branch out into 2 different tech trees only in 2 bases? He deserves to be punished for that. He makes his 2nd nexus in a proxy location and I scout it with my hellion. I 1a into his army for the win and he gets really, really mad. (Watch the rep for his exact comments).
Note: This game, the protoss player does catch me off guard using a proxy pylon and a hallucinated phoenix. He warps in 3 DTs on my main and kills a lot of my scvs eventhough I have a raven out already. My scv count gets down to a meager 15, but I know that this is the EEEE HAN TIMING for me to win. As soon as my natural is secured with a turret, I push out with my army for an easy win. He ragequits without a gg.
Note: My scv scouts early 2nd gas but hellion only scouts 2 gate in his base. I realize something is up and build viking followed by a raven, as well as tanks and marines. I played this game at a time when I did not realize that such strong timing existed against DT into expansion builds. So I decide to expand safely and build up “Terran Death Ball”. And roll him for an easy win.
Possibility #6: The scv scouts early second gas and the first hellion is denied scouting by 1 zealot 1 stalker or 2 stalkers. + Show Spoiler +
This basically means that the protoss player’s got something to hide in his base, as he/she is not even bothering to scout what we are doing. It’s most likely 3 gate DT into expand, 3 gate void ray all in or 3 gate into blink stalker build, so check around possible proxy locations for hidden stargate or dark shrine. As we are not too sure about what the protoss player is doing, we have to play safe. Completely wall off the ramp (to buy time against DTs), continue to make marines and tanks with siege mode. Also, make a viking and then a raven from starport. If he went void ray or DT opening, refer to above posts (possibilities #3 and #5) for proper response. If he went 3 gate into blink, build another CC in the main and leap frog siege tanks into expansion and head into mid-late game army composition into “Terrran Death Ball” described later in the guide. Please refer to replay #13 for proper response.
Note:FYI, Undercover told me he's Deezer. This game I was going for a variation of this build, following iechoic’s 3 hellion drop opening. It gets scouted by his stalker and he reveals his blink. I immediately start producing marines, tanks, raven and banshees and expand. Obviously the logical tech path for the protoss player is either HT or DT based builds. He chooses to get DTs and as soon as I see a DT in my base, I scream EEEE HAN TIMING and run into his base for the win. Deezer leaves without a gg...
Possibility #7: The scv scouts early second gas and the first hellion scouts 3 gate with a robo and the protoss player is not bothering to expand. + Show Spoiler +
This means he/she’s going for a 1 base colossus all in. Immediately put down 2 bunkers in natural while making viking, tanks with siege mode and marines. Then build CC in the natural. Build supply depots around the bunkers so that they cannot be attacked by zealots and siege the tanks behind the bunkers. Use a viking to provide sight for tanks and focus fire on collosus using tanks/vikings. We should be able to fend it off easily and the protoss player will either quit or be way behind. I forgot to save replays vs 1 base colossus all ins (I didn’t think I would make a comprehensive guide such as this) but I have defended against it successfully using tanks and vikings with bunkers. The closest replay I could find to 1 base collosus all in is this replay where the protoss player went warp prism with zealot drop into 1 base collosus all in. Please refer to replay #14 for proper response.
Note: The key here is to build 2 bunkers in the natural to secure the expansion. The protoss player won’t be able to move into a seige tank line with bunkers and vikings patrolling the air. In this replay, the protoss player goes for a warp prism zealot drop into 1 base collosus play. But he can’t break the line of defense and decides to expand. By then it’s too late and I 1a for the win.
Possibility #8: Dealing with “safe” protoss builds – The buildup of “Terran Death Ball” + Show Spoiler +
This is the main course of the meal, so to speak. The cue for “safe” protoss builds is either our first hellion scouting for 2 gate/3 gate robo into expansion, or 3 gate into expansion with a lot of sentries. In this case it is very difficult as a terran player to win the game right away, so we need to build up our “Terran death ball” for a strong timing push. Upon scouting this, make banshee out of starport and build a CC in our main. We will make 2 banshees to poke in/harass his mineral line as 2 banshees one hit the probes. Build 2 tanks with siege mode and continue to make marines. The 2 banshees will keep most of his army in his/her base and it will be relatively easy for us to set up an expansion. Build 2 bunkers in the natural, and float the CC into natural mineral line and morph it into an OC. When the 2 bunkers are done, siege the two tanks below in natural and build an engineering bay as well as a second factory. After 2 banshees are produced, make a raven and a second factory with a reactor. Research infernal pre-igniter using first factory and additionally put down 2 more barracks. One barrack will have a tech lab and another with a reactor. After raven’s built, swap starport with a barrack with a reactor. Research stim, combat shield and concussive shells. In 2 bases, we will have 3 rax (2 with tech lab and 1 with reactor), 2 factory (1 with tech lab and 1 with reactor), and 1 starport with reactor for a total production buidling of 6. Continue to build marines, marauders, tanks, blue flame hellions, vikings and in the mean time continue to poke in with 2 banshees. Build an armory and upgrade +attack for vehicle as well as +attack for infantry from engineering bay. As soon as infernal pre-igniter is finished, we also have the option of going for a hellion drop.The timing for this push is when we reach ~150 food. It is important to mention that throughout all this, continue to produce scvs. Take a third as we move out with this massive army. Scan ahead of your army to see the protoss player’s army movement and siege the tanks near his base. For the main engagement, make sure to group hellions+MM army in one hotkey and tanks+vikings in another hotkey.First thing to mention is that you MUST put down the PDD right before engagement. It can mean the difference between completely demolishing the protoss army or losing the game. A raven full of mana can set 2 PDDs which can deflect up to 40 attacks from stalkers/phoenixes! Also raven is the priority target over any other unit, so setting up PDD is the first action we should do in main engagement. Against collosus based builds, focus fire on collosus with tanks+vikings while kiting the collosus with hellion+MM army. When most of collosus are taken care of, 1a into his army. Against HT based builds, focuse fire on his/her stalker or HTs using tanks and , kite and spread out the hellions+MM to minimze storm damage. Also we would build more medivacs than vikings when facing HT based builds. If game goes on longer, put down 2 more barracks and factory per each base we construct and continue to build on the core of “Terran Death Ball” army. Personally I would incorporate ghosts into the mix after third expansion is secured. Also make sure to continue to upgrade mech and bio units. Below I have provided several replays using “Terran Death Ball”. Also please note that in some replays I have incorporated some ghosts in 2 base timing push but I feel that opting for an earlier bio and mech attack upgrades over ghosts would be more robust option heading into late game.
Note:Please don't mind my rambling in the beginning of the game! I was just humming k-pop <3 It is a cross position in shattered temple. Minigun goes 2 gate pressure into expand. I expand as well and build up “Terran Death Ball” for the win against minigun’s colossus based army.
Note: It is a cross position in shattered temple. FXOptikzero also opts for 2 gate pressure into expand. I build up “Terran Death Ball” against his colossus based army. He tries to get cute with blink stalkers in my main base so I a1 into his natural for the win.
Note: Guess what, it is another cross position in shattered temple!! WHAT are the odds of that lol.. Anyways perfect goes for 1 gate FE. Had I scouted that in time I would’ve went thor all in for a quick win. I keep up the pressure with banshees and blue flame hellion drops while building the “Terran Death Ball” for the decisive finish against his colossus based army.
Note: The map is xel naga cavern and ppgBubbles opts for a safe 3 gate mass sentry into expand. Mid game he uses observer for sight and blinks into my base and begins to snipe all the tech labs and reactors in my production structures. This was first time I encountered this so I had trouble defending against it. What one needs to do is to leave a viking and raven to snipe the observer and place some marauders in main base. In a near 200/200 battle, the “Terran Death Ball” crumples his HT/colossus protoss army.
Note: The map is metalopolis in close spawn position. He opts for upgrade heavy colossus/gateway mix against my “Terran Death Ball”
Note: It is close position in backwater gulch. FXOSLoG opts for 3 gate pressure into expand. He took his natural much earlier than I did and I couldn’t deal any damage with banshees or hellions. (My 2 banshees died to phoenixes without dealing any damage economically) I felt that I was pretty behind at that point and went for a semi all in with ~20 scvs. He chose to tech for 2 base HT play, but it was negated with good spread of units and slow yet meticulous tank leap frog.
Ending/Credit: I welcome any constructive feedback/criticism on this guide. Please take your time to read them as I have put a lot of time into it Lastly I have a stream on TL under the name WardenSC so if you would like to see this build in action or my plays vs other match ups please feel free visit my stream. I regularly commentate and provide reasoning behind my strategy and play style on the stream.
Great! I think the Terran community has been waiting for this for a long time. Bio-based builds get boring after a while and to be honest it's weak to alot of colossus timings. Not to mention it's not that great against the protoss deathball. Thanks and I'm checking it out now
In the build order spoiler box you forgot to include the first rax. The build seems interesting, but what do I know, let's get some higher level players to comment on it.
awesome guide warden!. its good to see more 1-1-1 users since straight up bio play has gotten really really boring. The great thing about your guide is that your only showing a straight up reactive guide, this doesn't count out all the other builds you could do with a 1-1-1 in a best of x series or w/e once ur opponent has sniffed out ur playstyle. A+++ hope u get featured too btw, Fograw and i miss you ;P
Sweet! My worst match up at the moment is definately TvP. The heavy bio builds feel so fragile. I decided to try a mech build (with a few marauders) just a few minutes ago and even though I made it up as I went, it felt sooo much more safe and solid.
Definately going to study this over the next couple of days.
I like how half the builds recommend going semi all-in with 12 SCV's upon scouting certain events....really goes to show the power of timing attacks at the highest level
One question Warden: how about nexus first? Do you still go thor all-in? I guess the protoss would have more units than 1 gate FE. (Actually, in Possibility 2 do you mean 1 gate FE or 1 gate core FE?)
Yes I would go thor all in against nexus first builds and in possibility 2 I mean 1 gate core FE. I guess I should probably specify that Also thx for the positive feedback guys <3
Second question: How about 3 gate robo with earlier immortal bust? (as opposed to colossus). Immortals can chew through bunkers and absorb tank shots. Can you safety hold your nat with 1 barracks worth of marines? How would you tell if it was immortal vs colossus anyway?
Woah thanks for the nice guide. Will definitly watch the replays and try your style. I always tried to find a good way to add mech units in TvP but its kinda hard to get the ratio right.
And I really like that you listed all the scout possibilities, overall one of the best guides on this side I saw up to now.
Amazing guide thank you. Thor all ins are probably my favourite! I have always tended to get earlier ghosts, a second starport and double engineering bay but I'm happy to see tank / hellions thrown in for good effect.
I would sort of question why you make marines at all after the mid game, they don't do much damage and you have blue flame hellions to melt the zealots
To answer the question regarding the earlier immortal bust with 3 gate robo, it should be actually easier to hold than 1 base collosus. Its a reactored rax so you would produce 2 marines at a time and with 2 bunker full of marines + tanks and banshees it should be manageable to hold off the push. However you may have to focus fire on stalkers using your tanks while using marines and banshees to snipe the immortals and bring scvs for repairing bunkers. If you watch replay #7 the protoss player attempts immortals+stalkers bust with 2 robos (eventhough the push comes later) and I am able to defend against it without too much danger. To scout for whether the protoss player's going immortal or colossus heavy 1 base play, you can either sacrifice a scv into his main for scouting or scan his main (which I never like to do, I am a firm believer that scanning for the purpose of scouting is gambling at best.)
Marines have one of the highest DPS in the game and it's never a bad idea to have them in a battle They are especially important versus phoenix collosus based army.
Do you mind uploading some of your losses? I play Protoss so I'd like to see what you did or didn't do to lose a game. Very detailed guide and I'll watch all replays to be better prepared.
On June 13 2011 00:48 ThaSlayer wrote: How would you tell the difference between 3 Gate DT (possibility 5) and a normal 3 gate FE? The response for both cases seem different.
On June 13 2011 00:48 ThaSlayer wrote: How would you tell the difference between 3 Gate DT (possibility 5) and a normal 3 gate FE? The response for both cases seem different.
Thanks for enlightening fellow terrans with this. My current TvP build is doing exactly this, or very similar to it. Early Ravens really give stalkers a nightmare and keeps observers off my main army. Tanks absolutely abuse the high ground. Marines and helions clean up. Stages of my game tend go as such:
Early Game: Marine/Tank/Medivac/Raven Mid Game: Marauder/Tank/Marine/Viking Late Game: Tank/Marine/Ghost/Viking/Medivac/Helion
When you make those transitions depends on what your opponent is doing. You will want to prioritize helions and Ghosts earlier if you see early Council into templar play. Constantly pump Vikings if you expect Colossi play. Transition to Thors if you see mass Phoenix play. I would strongly urge more terrans to go with a 1 1 1 into a similar play as it is the most versatile and I believe it will eventually dominate TvP.
On June 12 2011 22:09 WardenSC wrote: Yes I would go thor all in against nexus first builds and in possibility 2 I mean 1 gate core FE. I guess I should probably specify that Also thx for the positive feedback guys <3
i found this incredibly effective against 16 nexi. It hits earlier then a thor rush so i think its better, but i havent experimented with thor rushes yet.
This is one of the best guides I've ever seen. (The best?)
As far as Thor All in builds against Nexus first (or gate-cyber-nexus), I find that there may have to be an asterisk* on it. I agree that it's good (possibly free-win) in close position, and even in medium position, but on a large map such as Tal'darim Altar, Shakuras Plateau, Cross position Metalopolis, Scrap Station, cross Backwalter Gulch, etc, the Protoss is able to muster enough of a defense to stop the all-in.
I'll likely be giving this strategy a serious try in the coming week (and hopefully beyond).
Wow, definately going to try this, you beat like all of the top NA tosses with this... Very impresssed.
What do you do when the toss gets really heavy upgrades? Ive noticed that you are not heavy at all. It seems like if he can hold out til 3-3 he can then punish you for not being so heavy. Also, how does this fair agaisnt immortal/archon/HT builds? Ive noticed that this build amazinginly and simply enough seems to solve the collsi problem because PDD keeps your vikings alive to do the damage they need rather than them just getting picked off.
this is totally bookmarked. Its more than just a strat, its a whole "countering early protoss pressure with 1/1/1" with a later gameplan attached. ty very much, sir!
It seems like I can easily run past the Bunker with a Guardian Shield and if I do manage to through it, I will either just straight up kill you or get at least 6 SCV kills. Your guide says if you see such thing, you would go for a Thor all in, however the Naniwa build should kill reactor-Barracks Thor-All ins straight up (without a wall).
It is a all-in-all great build, don't get me wrong. It is just that I always open with that build against Terran most of the time, and I would like to know how my opening would do against it.
Forget the build order, and replays... just the analysis of reading protoss builds will 100% help me. I got to 1400 masters, and can't tell you what a protoss is doing half the time. I scout, just cuz I have to.
Great guide, great analysis of replays... Warden you are sick. Have been trying to make biomech work for so long, but just couldn't... then I did this on ladder 1st time and wrecked the shit out of a protoss. I am in love with this build!!
Was literally just browsing the forums for a thread on how to read toss openings when I bumped into this. Most comprehensive guide I ever saw, and totally baller. This is where my TvP luck turns!
Wow, definately going to try this, you beat like all of the top NA tosses with this... Very impresssed. What do you do when the toss gets really heavy upgrades? Ive noticed that you are not heavy at all. It seems like if he can hold out til 3-3 he can then punish you for not being so heavy. Also, how does this fair agaisnt immortal/archon/HT builds? Ive noticed that this build amazinginly and simply enough seems to solve the collsi problem because PDD keeps your vikings alive to do the damage they need rather than them just getting picked off.
Watch my game vs cruncher where he is 2/2 and I am only +1 on infantry I think. As I expand into 3rd and 4th, I would concentrate on going upgrade heavy. Also watch rep#20 vs FXOSLoG for my play vs HT/archon/immortal play. I have talked about dealing with HT based builds on the guide.
In replay #18: Why did you go for 4 Rax 1 Fax 1 Starport? What made you go for a additional Rax instead of BF Helions?
Because in that game I was really low on gas as I made the mistake of not getting 3rd and 4th gas on my natural base quickly enough. I was very mineral heavy that game as bubbles continued to harass my addons with blink stalkers. I've also talked about how to defend vs it in the replay analysis.
Quick question, how does this build react to the Naniwa 2 gate expand build with 4 Stalkers, a Sentry for Guardian Shield, and a Zealot?
I don't go for thor all in when protoss goes 2 gate expand. I go thor all in when the protoss player either goes 1 gate cyber into expo or nexus first builds. I think I have 2 replays vs minigun and optikzero where they both go 2 gate pressure into expand build. You can watch that to see how I reacted/defended. I consider that among protoss "safe" builds and go into mid game with intention of building "Terran Death Ball".
Found the reading builds part helpful, but I don't buy the viability of the composition. I would imagine there's a reason no top korean T's invest in more than MMGV.
How do you deal with splitting upgrades?
I feel like tanks are OK if you manual target the stalkers, but check this - a ghost for a similar cost will do more AOE instantly.
Hey naventus, please read all the posts and watch all the replays before commenting on the viability of the build. Going by your reasoning, is IMMvp or MKP the only players qualified enough to come up with an effective strategy? I can tell you flat out that the difference between execution and invention of builds are WORLDS APART. I also have replay of me winning vs boyardee(he's naniwa, right?) but did not bother to post it only because I had thors in the composition and no longer feel that is necessary or beneficial for this build. Tanks are incredible vs protoss's clumped army especially colossus and stalkers as most stalkers sit right under colossus. So the splash damage is inflicted to the full extent. With respect to upgrades I research attack upgrades for both infantry and mech units. I already mentioned this in the guide which you would've realized if you made an attempt to read the whole guide.
PS: I'm from Korea if that's what you wanted to hear.
Finally more terrans using hellions . This also reminded me of the power of PDD vs stalkers...
Just wanted to ask how important you think the siege tanks are to this strategy? I find them very cumbersome vs protoss because 1) you end up splashing your own units a lot vs chargelots, 2) they lose a TON of effectiveness if you get caught unsieged, 3) they greatly slow down your push, allowing protoss more time to reinforce, 4) because of how they work you're very vulnerable to counterattacks.
Do you feel like the tanks are essential to your success with this build?
Thanks for the build and LOVE the early game opener analysis!
On June 13 2011 09:56 naventus wrote: Found the reading builds part helpful, but I don't buy the viability of the composition. I would imagine there's a reason no top korean T's invest in more than MMGV.
How do you deal with splitting upgrades?
I feel like tanks are OK if you manual target the stalkers, but check this - a ghost for a similar cost will do more AOE instantly.
Really?
Ima let you finish, but MMMGV is the best composition of all time. OF ALL TIME!
This army composition has the potential to turn the mentality of tvp on its heels. You can fight a "straight up" fight, head on, with this Terran Death Ball. You can't* with MMMGV. Somebody's gotta be the first mover. There were quite a few games here that I watched in which MMMGV would have gotten melted but the sturdier biomech got what looked to me as "surprising" victories.
Instead of a Thor All-In, your armory is already delayed with a 1:1:1. How about a PDD all-in? I would think your first unit out of the star port is maybe a medivac/Viking but as soon as you tech it you should build a banshee/Raven. If you suspect a non-robo build then you need to go for banshee but without scouting info, I would think you pump a raven as soon as you tech the star port. Raven/PDD with marine/Tank works as a better all-in, hitting at about 8:00-8:30 minutes. Unless you are going pure medivac/Thor with marine/helion as a base comp with no tech lab on the port.
On June 13 2011 09:56 naventus wrote: Found the reading builds part helpful, but I don't buy the viability of the composition. I would imagine there's a reason no top korean T's invest in more than MMGV.
How do you deal with splitting upgrades?
I feel like tanks are OK if you manual target the stalkers, but check this - a ghost for a similar cost will do more AOE instantly.
Ima let you finish, but MMMGV is the best composition of all time. OF ALL TIME!
This army composition has the potential to turn the mentality of tvp on its heels. You can fight a "straight up" fight, head on, with this Terran Death Ball. You can't* with MMMGV. Somebody's gotta be the first mover. There were quite a few games here that I watched in which MMMGV would have gotten melted but the sturdier biomech got what looked to me as "surprising" victories.
This is false. With full EMPs and the appropriate number of viking, T 200 can definitely trade evenly against P 200. There was a recent game on taldarim where one of the top T got up to like 5-6 base with extra orbitals, threw away some SCVs, and just stood on MGV.
I don't see the advantage of tanks, if you think back a few months to GSL like 3 seasons ago, or maybe beta, every T was doing tank oriented builds. They do less DPS than vikings against colossus, do not have any positioning advantage, and you would have to splash stalkers standing underneath as you claim (but often those don't stand together).
--
Re: OP. I don't want you to take offense, but viability of a composition when players are not particularly prepared for it, and not at the highest skill of the game should be questioned. If you can take a 5set off of MC, or demonstrate tournament viability, that is an entirely beast to surprising people on the ladder.
Tanks don't have positioning advantage? Not sure what that means exactly... I get that Vikings can be anywhere on the map, but once you get a tank in position on land, it's way more devastating than any Viking damage. Also, I don't see a huge problem going for a 1-1, 1-0 bio/mech upgrade split, as opposed to maybe a 2-1 all bio push. With Vikings so essential with MMMVG, do people atually bother with dual air upgrades? 2 armories and significantly higher upgrade costs? Air control is such a big aspect of that army comp, but do terrans actually prioritize dual air upgrades like they should? To me a 2-1 bio push with no air upgrades is way worse than say a 1-1/1-0 bio/mech split.
If you spread all your tanks, they don't all reach every colossus. If you don't spread your tanks, they get destroyed by AoE.
Also if you don't invest into air infrastructure, how will you deal with a VR transition mid game or carriers late? Tanks are only good against stalkers that you target fire, and approximately equivalent, but a bit worse than vikings against colossus.
Re: OP. I don't want you to take offense, but viability of a composition when players are not particularly prepared for it, and not at the highest skill of the game should be questioned. If you can take a 5set off of MC, or demonstrate tournament viability, that is an entirely beast to surprising people on the ladder.
Dear naventus,
Purely going with your logic here, that I shouldn't talk about the viability of my build as I don't play at the "highest level" of the game. What are your qualifications to question the viability of my build? Please give me a link to your bnet account and we can continue this conversation. Unless I see a grandmaster account associated with your name, I will not continue this dialogue any longer.
On June 13 2011 12:38 naventus wrote: If you spread all your tanks, they don't all reach every colossus. If you don't spread your tanks, they get destroyed by AoE.
Also if you don't invest into air infrastructure, how will you deal with a VR transition mid game or carriers late? Tanks are only good against stalkers that you target fire, and approximately equivalent, but a bit worse than vikings against colossus.
I think you should add a second reactored star port once you are on 6 geysers. Your first port will probably be teched for banshee/raven. I'd say get the medivac energy boost to save some money long term since medivacs wouldn't be a huge priority for a bio/mech split comp. Vikings take 42 seconds to pump out, while colossi take 75 (minus chrono). So in the mid game you can get buy pumping one Viking at a time. Late game I think you need another port just to keep air superiority, then you can prioritize Banshee/Medivac/Raven once again.
That hellion scout is so much win. Been using the build a bit and its amazing. I always get a ton of scouting information which is so crucial in this MU. And if they mess up at all I get like 5-7 worker kills. BOSS.
I am having some difficultys with the push. If my push is late at all they cna get the neccesary collsi to overwhelm me. I think i lost those cuz he did a 1 gate FE which seems to do very well against this build if you dont do a thor-all in to counter.
Re: OP. I don't want you to take offense, but viability of a composition when players are not particularly prepared for it, and not at the highest skill of the game should be questioned. If you can take a 5set off of MC, or demonstrate tournament viability, that is an entirely beast to surprising people on the ladder.
Dear naventus,
Purely going with your logic here, that I shouldn't talk about the viability of my build as I don't play at the "highest level" of the game. What are your qualifications to question the viability of my build? Please give me a link to your bnet account and we can continue this conversation. Unless I see a grandmaster account associated with your name, I will not continue this dialogue any longer.
Sincerely,
WardenSC.
You seem really angry. Did you only want people to congratulate you on figuring out the matchup once and for all?
I'm not making any claims, you are making the claim that this works - the burden is on you to prove it, not to get mad at criticism.
What, then, do you perceive to be the weaknesses to this style of play in macro games?
Re: OP. I don't want you to take offense, but viability of a composition when players are not particularly prepared for it, and not at the highest skill of the game should be questioned. If you can take a 5set off of MC, or demonstrate tournament viability, that is an entirely beast to surprising people on the ladder.
Dear naventus,
Purely going with your logic here, that I shouldn't talk about the viability of my build as I don't play at the "highest level" of the game. What are your qualifications to question the viability of my build? Please give me a link to your bnet account and we can continue this conversation. Unless I see a grandmaster account associated with your name, I will not continue this dialogue any longer.
Sincerely,
WardenSC.
You seem really angry. Did you only want people to congratulate you on figuring out the matchup once and for all?
I'm not making any claims, you are making the claim that this works - the burden is on you to prove it, not to get mad at criticism.
What, then, do you perceive to be the weaknesses to this style of play in macro games?
I am completely lost here, on 1 hand you're basically saying if you cant beat MC in a 5setter you shouldn't be posting.. on the other hand you're demanding he 'proves' it despite the 15+ replays his attached against high quality opponents.
Let's get some replays of losses? Or maybe he can discuss the weaknesses of the composition?
If it sounds like snake oil, it just might be snake oil. It's not hard to cherrypick the wins with a certain strategy, you can make anything look viable. Look at all the threads in this strategy forum.
He did a great job explaining reading P builds, that was really well done.
But if this is really a viable tactic in a macro game, and yields 80% win, shouldn't he be shitting over people in tournaments?
macro games?!? c'mon, this is clan xi they are known as the 1-2 base clan (no offense, it's rumor) lol anyway the unit comp is obviously good, you just don't expand enough or as much as you should, imo
with a quicker 3rd & 4th & macro'ing well, how can you go wrong?
still nice to see ppl tryna spark a fire for other unit paths beside mmmvg vs. toss would be a first
That's my point, you can't defend as easily across 3-4 base, sure you will beat the P in a straight up fight if he makes composition errors in the first max, but if the P knew how to survive that first fight, and didn't die, what happens?
Could you remacro with the flexibility and composition that the P has? Whatever, my point is that please discuss the weaknesses of the strategy, or what else is there to say - great job spending your time writing?
On June 13 2011 13:38 naventus wrote: That's my point, you can't defend as easily across 3-4 base, sure you will beat the P in a straight up fight if he makes composition errors in the first max, but if the P knew how to survive that first fight, and didn't die, what happens?
Could you remacro with the flexibility and composition that the P has? Whatever, my point is that please discuss the weaknesses of the strategy, or what else is there to say - great job spending your time writing?
Its pretty well known that pretty much anytime you stop a Terran push you gain a huge advantage. So whether its MMMGV or this build either way, T has the worst rebuilding of the three races. The point of this push is to gain an advantage or die.
He could definately remacro the ball. But i do agree with you, id like to see some games where you dont win of thiss push and you are forced to remacro. I want to see multiple 200/200 games where the P reacts to your composition.
Heres another thing, in regards to korea, you can always point the mirror that way and say Hey look they are the best thats what we should be doing. But this isnt always the case, you gota keep in mind they have a different meta game, and are on a completely different skill level then us. Now of course you can copy their builds and you will have success because the amount of thought they put in is mind blowing(read an interview where the guy practiced a build 200 times) Warden made a great quote that says it all, "The differance between execution, and invention are worlds apart."
Now its not like this guy has solved TvP nor is he claiming at all "HEY GUYS COME WIN TVP EVERYTIME, because you know what? no one build solves this game, theres going to be counters to it. Warden probably surprised these guys on ladder alot and took some wins(not a cop out to your skill at all warden, beating like 10 of the top protosses on NA is amazing regardless of how you do it). This is a good build that we will hopefully see develop. NA Terran is definately struggling in this MU so at this rate we need everything we can get.
This is an AMAZING guide! I particularly enjoyed your summary of all the common toss openings. Your knowledge of the game is truly grandmasteresque.
Do you feel your strategy is superior in smaller maps or close spawns? I feel any siege-centric build on the bigger maps is too slow developing, lacking in harass potential (due to need for bio/hellions to cover tanks), and prone to counterattacks. Perhaps this is why the top koreans opt for the lean and mobile MMMGV composition?
Looking forward to seeing you and possibly cheesing the shit out of you in the UBC tourny next month haha. Hopefully I won't disgrace your build too much when I use it.
Re: OP. I don't want you to take offense, but viability of a composition when players are not particularly prepared for it, and not at the highest skill of the game should be questioned. If you can take a 5set off of MC, or demonstrate tournament viability, that is an entirely beast to surprising people on the ladder.
Dear naventus,
Purely going with your logic here, that I shouldn't talk about the viability of my build as I don't play at the "highest level" of the game. What are your qualifications to question the viability of my build? Please give me a link to your bnet account and we can continue this conversation. Unless I see a grandmaster account associated with your name, I will not continue this dialogue any longer.
Sincerely,
WardenSC.
You seem really angry. Did you only want people to congratulate you on figuring out the matchup once and for all?
I'm not making any claims, you are making the claim that this works - the burden is on you to prove it, not to get mad at criticism.
What, then, do you perceive to be the weaknesses to this style of play in macro games?
I am completely lost here, on 1 hand you're basically saying if you cant beat MC in a 5setter you shouldn't be posting.. on the other hand you're demanding he 'proves' it despite the 15+ replays his attached against high quality opponents.
TL/b.net is not exactly riddled with protoss with MC skill-level either. Do we have to wait for tournaments to prove build orders before they can be used?
On June 13 2011 09:56 naventus wrote: Re: OP. I don't want you to take offense, but viability of a composition when players are not particularly prepared for it, and not at the highest skill of the game should be questioned. If you can take a 5set off of MC, or demonstrate tournament viability, that is an entirely beast to surprising people on the ladder.
You're right that the viability of this composition should be questioned, but your argument can't be "I haven't seen Korean terrans do this in GSL, therefore I don't think it's viable." Warden has already taken many steps to show that his build is viable at a GM level, and that it can adapt to answer many different protoss strategies. Of course GM on the NA server isn't the best players in the world, but the game is still new. In months or years, players will be playing at a much higher level & maybe using completely different strategies. Even if Warden were to go take out top Korean protosses with this strategy, it still may or may not be viable in a year or two.
The next step should be for more terrans to use this on ladder and see what its weaknesses are, and for protosses to try to find a way to break it. It could be that this build is flavor of the month and there's an easy fix, or it could be a completely viable way to play the matchup and strategies like this will become more popular. As for it seeing use in top Korean play such as in GSL: The Koreans are pretty set in their ways and like to practice their solid, standard play more than they like to experiment with new strategies. We have already seen a little bit of marine/siege tank play in the GSL. Given time, if this kind of strategy is truly effective, it will be picked up by Koreans and refined.
So when protoss does a fast expand this is a "greedy build that must be punished" and you go all in every time?
There are no alternatives such as for example, a macro based play?
Are you sure there are no ways of countering these kind of all in? Because if most FE can defend this all in then you are basically conceding to be behind in the majority of tvp games
So when protoss does a fast expand this is a "greedy build that must be punished" and you go all in every time?
There are no alternatives such as for example, a macro based play?
Are you sure there are no ways of countering these kind of all in? Because if most FE can defend this all in then you are basically conceding to be behind in the majority of tvp games
If he/she fast expands, you can also choose to expand relatively early with 1/1/1 build. Please look at replay #17 where perfect goes for 1 gate expand and I expand with 1/1/1 instead of thor all in and still win the game rather convincingly. So there are alternatives to win the game obviously. (With that being said, I would've gone thor all in if I scouted his expansion before buildling a starport.) But with risky builds such as 1 gate expo, phoenix opening and dt opening, with countless experimentation, I found that there's a timing window that you can take advantage of, to win the game outright. Why would you want to prolong the game when you have 95% chance of winning it right there?
I don't know if I would use this, it feels too 'one-of-everything' to me, and deathballs aren't really my thing, but it is certainly an interesting idea.
Excellent guide and post. Even if I didn't want to use your build, your different categorizations/reads of protoss builds based on your scv and follow up scout is incredibly useful. That alone would be a great post, the interesting build/strategy is just (very thick!) gravy on top for me. Thanks a lot.
Read through it, saw all replays, and you really are showing others, how a well made guide should be done.
I as alot of other terrans, got tired of the usual MMGV build in TvP, so this is really refreshing.
I am somehow a bit confused regarding the opening units to produce.
If your SCV scouts early 2 gas, you could expect proxy stargate, or 4gate all in if I understand correctly. As I understand it, I should produce a viking out of my starport first, unless im 100% sure its not a proxy stargate, then it should be a banshee, and siegetanks with siegemode following, right?
But how do you determine if its a proxy stargate or a 4 gate all in, if all you could scout was 1 gate, and 2 early gas? In other words, how do i decide between banshee or viking, with so little scouting information?
On June 13 2011 22:03 jelle wrote: Wow Warden, awesome guide, I must say.
Read through it, saw all replays, and you really are showing others, how a well made guide should be done.
I as alot of other terrans, got tired of the usual MMGV build in TvP, so this is really refreshing.
I am somehow a bit confused regarding the opening units to produce.
If your SCV scouts early 2 gas, you could expect proxy stargate, or 4gate all in if I understand correctly. As I understand it, I should produce a viking out of my starport first, unless im 100% sure its not a proxy stargate, then it should be a banshee, and siegetanks with siegemode following, right?
But how do you determine if its a proxy stargate or a 4 gate all in, if all you could scout was 1 gate, and 2 early gas? In other words, how do i decide between banshee or viking, with so little scouting information?
further poke with hellion, try to dodge the troops and run in
On June 13 2011 22:03 jelle wrote: Wow Warden, awesome guide, I must say.
Read through it, saw all replays, and you really are showing others, how a well made guide should be done.
I as alot of other terrans, got tired of the usual MMGV build in TvP, so this is really refreshing.
I am somehow a bit confused regarding the opening units to produce.
If your SCV scouts early 2 gas, you could expect proxy stargate, or 4gate all in if I understand correctly. As I understand it, I should produce a viking out of my starport first, unless im 100% sure its not a proxy stargate, then it should be a banshee, and siegetanks with siegemode following, right?
But how do you determine if its a proxy stargate or a 4 gate all in, if all you could scout was 1 gate, and 2 early gas? In other words, how do i decide between banshee or viking, with so little scouting information?
further poke with hellion, try to dodge the troops and run in
Yeah, but what if my hellion poke gets denied, and all i know is he got 2 early gas, and no FE and 1 gateway
On June 13 2011 22:03 jelle wrote: Wow Warden, awesome guide, I must say.
Read through it, saw all replays, and you really are showing others, how a well made guide should be done.
I as alot of other terrans, got tired of the usual MMGV build in TvP, so this is really refreshing.
I am somehow a bit confused regarding the opening units to produce.
If your SCV scouts early 2 gas, you could expect proxy stargate, or 4gate all in if I understand correctly. As I understand it, I should produce a viking out of my starport first, unless im 100% sure its not a proxy stargate, then it should be a banshee, and siegetanks with siegemode following, right?
But how do you determine if its a proxy stargate or a 4 gate all in, if all you could scout was 1 gate, and 2 early gas? In other words, how do i decide between banshee or viking, with so little scouting information?
further poke with hellion, try to dodge the troops and run in
Yeah, but what if my hellion poke gets denied, and all i know is he got 2 early gas, and no FE and 1 gateway
probe is gonna see marine opening... every half-decent toss pokes the ramp with stalker zealot against marine opening... that poke leaves the base around the time your hellion reaches the toss' base.. therefore, you can poke freely.... remember: there should be TWO UNITS and third just about to come (unless SCV sees chrono on the first gate before core) by the time the hellion reaches the ramp... in case the toss doesnt come with zea-stalker you poke up: if 2-3 zealots without stalker and u KNOW TH|ERE IS SECOND GAS, please get ready for DT or some heavy stargate tech... you can read the build more or less just by counting the units there are in the ramp...say you poke up and see zealot and 1-2 sentires, get ready for a heavy 4 gate or the sentry expo: leave the hellion next to the natural!
On June 13 2011 22:03 jelle wrote: Wow Warden, awesome guide, I must say.
Read through it, saw all replays, and you really are showing others, how a well made guide should be done.
I as alot of other terrans, got tired of the usual MMGV build in TvP, so this is really refreshing.
I am somehow a bit confused regarding the opening units to produce.
If your SCV scouts early 2 gas, you could expect proxy stargate, or 4gate all in if I understand correctly. As I understand it, I should produce a viking out of my starport first, unless im 100% sure its not a proxy stargate, then it should be a banshee, and siegetanks with siegemode following, right?
But how do you determine if its a proxy stargate or a 4 gate all in, if all you could scout was 1 gate, and 2 early gas? In other words, how do i decide between banshee or viking, with so little scouting information?
further poke with hellion, try to dodge the troops and run in
Yeah, but what if my hellion poke gets denied, and all i know is he got 2 early gas, and no FE and 1 gateway
probe is gonna see marine opening... every half-decent toss pokes the ramp with stalker zealot against marine opening... that poke leaves the base around the time your hellion reaches the toss' base.. therefore, you can poke freely.... remember: there should be TWO UNITS and third just about to come (unless SCV sees chrono on the first gate before core) by the time the hellion reaches the ramp... in case the toss doesnt come with zea-stalker you poke up: if 2-3 zealots without stalker and u KNOW TH|ERE IS SECOND GAS, please get ready for DT or some heavy stargate tech... you can read the build more or less just by counting the units there are in the ramp...say you poke up and see zealot and 1-2 sentires, get ready for a heavy 4 gate or the sentry expo: leave the hellion next to the natural!
etc etc
Wow yeah, okay, I kinda get where you going. I'm playing in the lower leagues, so its not always i get these 1 stalker 1 zealot pokes, so let me see if i get this 100%.
Poke on ramp:
2-3 zealots no stalker = DT or stargate (gas tech) = wall off and get viking, then raven
Mostly sentries = 4 gate or sentry expo = keep hellion in expo, get banshee and siegetank, and another bunker, and expand if opponent does so.
that is probably as much as you can get... though in order to avoid the hellion runby he'd need to keep stalkers with hold position (which is not gonna happend most of the case)... and as the OP said, if he IS REALLY TRYING to hold ground it means there is something gimmicky going on... better get ready
from what it seems, looks like it can fight head on... i tried it on the unit tester map... and i made a scary looking toss army... 3-0-3 composition with 20 chargelots, 6 colossi, about 15 stalkers and 6 immortals (around 120 supply) vs another 120 supply with 10 tanks, 6 ghosts, 6 vikings 1 raven with 2 pdds, 2 medivacs 15 bf hellions with 16 marines and 8 marauders (or someting like that)... with 2 attack for bio and 2 attack for mech
i tried MANY MANY MANY different scenarios... chokes.. troops split and not split up.. tanks caught unsieged... etc etc.. i didnt make sentries for 2 reasons... 1- i was microing terran... 2- damage reduction by 2 is shit compared to siege tanks dealing 60 dmg, ghosts dealing 100 dmg, hellions with 35 vs light, etc etc
i tried them many times... the results below are the average outcome of the battle my results:
tanks sieged, no EMP, no pdd, no micro from terran at all.. toss a-moving: toss wins by a good margin (about 2 colossi with 3 immortals and some stalkers)
tanks sieged with all the good stuff (emp, pdd, stim pack, hellions focusing zealots, etc etc).. terran wins big time: about ALL TANKS REMAINED, some marauders, landed vikings and 1-2 ghjosts...
tanks unsieged, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate, no micro whatsoever: toss roflstomp....
tanks unsieged, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate and massive EMPS everywhere - tie: there have been times where 1 siege tank was left alive, others 2 vikings, others 1 stalker, other one immortal with low hp... etc
tanks unsiege, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate and massive EMPS, PDDs, vikings and tanks focusing colossi, hellions dealing with chargelots, etc etc - T WINS with about 4 tanks and landed vikings...
On June 13 2011 23:48 xTrim wrote: from what it seems, looks like it can fight head on... i tried it on the unit tester map... and i made a scary looking toss army... 3-0-3 composition with 20 chargelots, 6 colossi, about 15 stalkers and 6 immortals (around 120 supply) vs another 120 supply with 10 tanks, 6 ghosts, 6 vikings 1 raven with 2 pdds, 2 medivacs 15 bf hellions with 16 marines and 8 marauders (or someting like that)... with 2 attack for bio and 2 attack for mech
i tried MANY MANY MANY different scenarios... chokes.. troops split and not split up.. tanks caught unsieged... etc etc.. i didnt make sentries for 2 reasons... 1- i was microing terran... 2- damage reduction by 2 is shit compared to siege tanks dealing 60 dmg, ghosts dealing 100 dmg, hellions with 35 vs light, etc etc
i tried them many times... the results below are the average outcome of the battle my results:
tanks sieged, no EMP, no pdd, no micro from terran at all.. toss a-moving: toss wins by a good margin (about 2 colossi with 3 immortals and some stalkers)
tanks sieged with all the good stuff (emp, pdd, stim pack, hellions focusing zealots, etc etc).. terran wins big time: about ALL TANKS REMAINED, some marauders, landed vikings and 1-2 ghjosts...
tanks unsieged, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate, no micro whatsoever: toss roflstomp....
tanks unsieged, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate and massive EMPS everywhere - tie: there have been times where 1 siege tank was left alive, others 2 vikings, others 1 stalker, other one immortal with low hp... etc
tanks unsiege, troops moving, siege as soon as engagement initiate and massive EMPS, PDDs, vikings and tanks focusing colossi, hellions dealing with chargelots, etc etc - T WINS with about 4 tanks and landed vikings...
Nice testing I specially like that you tried scenarios where you siege a bit late.
To me, this tells that if you leapfrog your tanks carefull enough, have map control, and micro as Warden instructs with MMMhellion on 1 hotkey, tanks and vikings on another, you should be pretty safe.
Another question:
I for one like Banshee's, let alone cloaked banshees. Now if i scout my opponent is going some kind of tech without robo, a cloaked banshee can often win a lot of games just by getting 10+ kills in the mineral line. Is there anyway to have cloaked banshees with this build, and still be safe? Or would it have to be too late in the game to really do enough dmg compared to the cost?
The only cons that I can see with this build at first glance are that siege tanks take a long time to replenish and pretty much require you to have map control unless you want to waste scans or be in the dark about where his army is. Reason being is that if you get caught unsieged your tanks are about useless, not only that but tanks take forever to replenish.
I'd like to see a variation of this build without the tanks, maybe just adding more mnms instead.
First of all, yes tanks have a weakness in that if they get caught unsieged, they are useless. But that doesn't stop players from using tanks in TvT matchups, right? With careful scout, map control and leap frogging of tanks, you can utilize tanks really well in TvP as well. Also if you've watched my replays, you will see that most of the time, tanks are the units that surivive the big clash purely due to its long range and meat shield provided by marine,marauder and hellion combo. So you don't really have to worry about replenishing your tanks.
I wouldn't go thor all in on cross map taldarim against 15 nexus.. I would just go 1/1/1 with quick expo into buildling of terran death ball. You will be definitely be ahead in tech and not too behind economically. I will edit that part in the guide.
This is an amazing build, I wouldn't be surprised if it became "standard" since it is so safe, yet as mentioned has many powerful timings. The real innovative thing is the that you get PPD and Vikings (instead of Banshee) to deal with Colossus/Stalkers and have Ghosts to crush the energy on Sentries and HT's. Avoiding Colossus would be a good bet as Protoss, but it means you get later AOE units.
This is very difficult to stop as Protoss, but it is relatively weak against some cheese builds, like a 1 gas, 10 gate 4 gate. If it is scouted late, you're dead, even if you scout it in time, you'll need a lot of units ready for a push at 6min.
Protoss player here OP what do you think about using thors it seems that immortal archon zealot would wreck this build, in my experience ghost, thor marauder, is the only viable engame strategy (i mean mass ghost not 2-3 atleast 5-6). i think opting for siege tanks is not that great considering they only bonus versus stalkers also if they hallucinate a round of immortals and run them in first your tanks will start splashing your own stuff and they can back peddle with your bio. i know hellions can do well against zealot but i find that once the zealot ball crashes on your army the hellions cant get huge splash.
I think you are going to start seeing less and less collossi due to the recent archon buff (they fill the same role and are harder to "counter"). but yea i agree with above siege tanks seem less than optimal (your gas can go to a lot of other places and generate a more robust efficient army).
this build feels soooooooooooo unrefined and sub optimal. Isnt there a safe way to FE into this gasless or otherwise that dont require you to get so much infrastructure on one base?
On June 14 2011 05:09 seefour wrote: this build feels soooooooooooo unrefined and sub optimal. Isnt there a safe way to FE into this gasless or otherwise that dont require you to get so much infrastructure on one base?
You're rediculous.
It isn't a build 100% It's telling you what to read, how to read it, and then how to react to it. The game isn't set in stone, and warden shows that. You can win more so by being reactionary with a basic plan, than being sit til 150 of thor marine mara banshee and push oh fuck i lost.
You saying it's unrefined is a total joke. Sub optimal... another joke. By FE into this, you are behind of a protoss if he decides to do MANY things. A protoss can punish a terran FE. A terran can't always punish a toss FE.
This is a guide that will get you more wins than losses.
On June 14 2011 05:09 seefour wrote: this build feels soooooooooooo unrefined and sub optimal. Isnt there a safe way to FE into this gasless or otherwise that dont require you to get so much infrastructure on one base?
You're rediculous.
It isn't a build 100% It's telling you what to read, how to read it, and then how to react to it. The game isn't set in stone, and warden shows that. You can win more so by being reactionary with a basic plan, than being sit til 150 of thor marine mara banshee and push oh fuck i lost.
You saying it's unrefined is a total joke. Sub optimal... another joke. By FE into this, you are behind of a protoss if he decides to do MANY things. A protoss can punish a terran FE. A terran can't always punish a toss FE.
This is a guide that will get you more wins than losses.
The thing is he has only 1 rax worth of marines and unsieged tanks to defend against these "many things" you say. You say that your behind if toss does any of these things. If toss does a 2 gate expand when your expanding at 6-7 mins IN your base then you are definately behind and you have to rely on a timing push to redress the balance. You can get 2 or 3 rax before gasing up then get a 5:20 factory and end up with the same situation just with a cc in your base
Do you have any thoughts on what maps this style will be more vs less good on? I'd imagine that it might be less good on bigger maps, due to some of the mobility issues with siege tanks.
On June 14 2011 05:09 seefour wrote: this build feels soooooooooooo unrefined and sub optimal. Isnt there a safe way to FE into this gasless or otherwise that dont require you to get so much infrastructure on one base?
You're rediculous.
It isn't a build 100% It's telling you what to read, how to read it, and then how to react to it. The game isn't set in stone, and warden shows that. You can win more so by being reactionary with a basic plan, than being sit til 150 of thor marine mara banshee and push oh fuck i lost.
You saying it's unrefined is a total joke. Sub optimal... another joke. By FE into this, you are behind of a protoss if he decides to do MANY things. A protoss can punish a terran FE. A terran can't always punish a toss FE.
This is a guide that will get you more wins than losses.
The thing is he has only 1 rax worth of marines and unsieged tanks to defend against these "many things" you say. You say that your behind if toss does any of these things. If toss does a 2 gate expand when your expanding at 6-7 mins IN your base then you are definately behind and you have to rely on a timing push to redress the balance. You can get 2 or 3 rax before gasing up then get a 5:20 factory and end up with the same situation just with a cc in your base
Except its a reactored rax and he needs the fast fac for the hellion to scout which as he outlined is key to stopping they myriad of cheesey protoss openings.
Really good guide, and I'm surley going to try this out
Some minor improvements could be done on the layout though. All of the "possibilties" are walls of texts, so would be nice if you could paragraph them. And if you could make a list of the different major timings, and when they are (like when are you supposed to expand, build the factory, get upgrades etc.). This is not neccesary though, only if you want to "perfect" it
Wonderful guide. I really liked how you showed scouting information (gas, gates, chrono) could be used to predict the opponent's build.
Most guides don't go down to that level of detail, they just say "oh, if he builds unit X then you build unit Y", but they don't tell you how to see unit X coming.
My only complaint is with you naming the build after yourself. Far too many people do it nowadays. I could easily argue that this build is merely a more fleshed out version of Polt Prime's TvP. The name game is silly. Most everybody's builds are fleshed out on the ladder (obviously you didn't craft this in isolation), which means that this build is a public resource...not a private one.
In any case, thank you for taking the time to put together the great guide. I hope you get featured.
I'm just happy to be able to see warden make some serious macro mistakes and still be able to win at GM level.(eg the Thor all-in he forgot to put scvs on 2nd gas for some time which delayed his 2nd Thor) Gives hope to us noobs here that strategy and intelligent play CAN out-trump flawless execution.
On June 14 2011 12:08 kNightLite wrote: Wonderful guide. I really liked how you showed scouting information (gas, gates, chrono) could be used to predict the opponent's build.
Most guides don't go down to that level of detail, they just say "oh, if he builds unit X then you build unit Y", but they don't tell you how to see unit X coming.
My only complaint is with you naming the build after yourself. Far too many people do it nowadays. I could easily argue that this build is merely a more fleshed out version of Polt Prime's TvP. The name game is silly. Most everybody's builds are fleshed out on the ladder (obviously you didn't craft this in isolation), which means that this build is a public resource...not a private one.
In any case, thank you for taking the time to put together the great guide. I hope you get featured.
I fail to see how he named the build after himself? The OP simply states that his (i.e Warden's TvP) consists of a 1:1:1 into the terran equivalent of a toss deathball.
Anyway, I really don't see why we should begrudge people of sticking their name on whatever builds/tricks/shenanigans they come up with. If the build is a total rip-off or merely a more polished version of something we saw in the GSL a few weeks ago, the name likely won't stick, and if it does we've simply ended up with some (hopefully) more convenient terminology. I dread the day I have to refer my my Maka-rax as an almost-but-not-quite-semi-proxied-rax.
Well, this guy spends his time for the good of the community in detailing a guide, and spent a lot of time on it. It helps noobs like me understand how to read the game, and react accordingly.
If he sticks his name on the guide, I would hardly begrudge him. If anything it does provide a reference point.
On June 14 2011 12:56 Evantas wrote: Well, this guy spends his time for the good of the community in detailing a guide, and spent a lot of effort on it. It helps noobs like me understand how to read the game, and react accordingly.
If he sticks his name on the guide, I would hardly begrudge him. If anything it does provide a reference point.
Wow excellent guide, I will definitely make sure and refer to it as the "warden build" because you've put a lot of work into it, very comprehensive and it's safe macro play. Will probably be my standard for tvp now. Give credit where credit is do! I especially like the trifecta splash damage, blue flame + emp + siege, with pdd and stim marine's dps is just brutal. All the potential for harassment if the opportunity presents itself is great too!
Suggestions: As I'm nowhere near you level, I still have good eyes for inefficiency. I did notice that sometimes your a little gas heavy or mineral heavy. I would suggest trying to use the factories to balance this out a little better (tanks or hellions) once your core army is established. Also, it would probably be a good idea to put your casters (raven + ghost) on their own hotkeys. I noticed that sometimes they die needlessly (they are only there for 1 cast anyway) With the very high gas cost it would be best to keep them back after they cast and if your push does get repelled it will make your next push all the sooner and stronger to have those left over. If you realize that they aren't getting colossus or HT fast, banshees are possibly better to mix in that vikings too. They are decent vs colossus anyway, and with pdd the stalkers will have trouble with them. I also think you wait a little too long to get your pdd out sometimes (which obviously you acknowledge in your guide) that thing has some sick range, so you can be a little more preemptive with it. It lasts forever anyway and recharges over time.
(You did ask for any constructive criticism like I said though I loved the build just won a few games with it seeing how it feels!)
On June 14 2011 12:08 kNightLite wrote: My only complaint is with you naming the build after yourself. I could easily argue that this build is merely a more fleshed out version of Polt Prime's TvP. The name game is silly.
On June 14 2011 12:08 kNightLite wrote: Wonderful guide. I really liked how you showed scouting information (gas, gates, chrono) could be used to predict the opponent's build.
Most guides don't go down to that level of detail, they just say "oh, if he builds unit X then you build unit Y", but they don't tell you how to see unit X coming.
My only complaint is with you naming the build after yourself. Far too many people do it nowadays. I could easily argue that this build is merely a more fleshed out version of Polt Prime's TvP. The name game is silly. Most everybody's builds are fleshed out on the ladder (obviously you didn't craft this in isolation), which means that this build is a public resource...not a private one.
In any case, thank you for taking the time to put together the great guide. I hope you get featured.
I fail to see how he named the build after himself? The OP simply states that his (i.e Warden's TvP) consists of a 1:1:1 into the terran equivalent of a toss deathball.
Anyway, I really don't see why we should begrudge people of sticking their name on whatever builds/tricks/shenanigans they come up with. If the build is a total rip-off or merely a more polished version of something we saw in the GSL a few weeks ago, the name likely won't stick, and if it does we've simply ended up with some (hopefully) more convenient terminology. I dread the day I have to refer my my Maka-rax as an almost-but-not-quite-semi-proxied-rax.
There's a big difference between Artosis naming Maka's almost-but-not-quite-semi-proxied-rax a "Maka Rax", and Maka himself making a thread saying THIS IS MY RAX LOLOLOL (no matter how good the guide is)
Great guide. I've been wondering about how to deal with the mid-game TvP when I open 1-1-1. I get too caught up with the Hellion Drops/Banshee harass mentality. This build helped show to me the strength of mix-unit composition for Terrans.
The read on the opponent's strat based on scouting is very informative. Thanks alot. =D
I think the reason this doesn't really get played a lot is because its hard to micro so many different units well in a battle, especially one so unforgiving as TvP 150+ food battles with Colossi/Storm. I've watched a few replays but I'm still really skeptical, it seems like your opponents set themselves up for a very bad position, and attack when they shouldn't or don't attack when they should (like in one game a protoss just let you walk up and siege right in his face on the Xel'naga gold).
That's just in terms of the "Death ball", but the basic early-mid game build is really solid because you just play a 100% reactionary game which is probably the best way to play vs toss in sc2.
Against HT based builds, focuse fire on his/her stalker or HTs using tanks and , kite and spread out the hellions+MM to minimze storm damage. Also we would build more medivacs than vikings when facing HT based builds. If game goes on longer, put down 2 more barracks and factory per each base we construct and continue to build on the core of “Terran Death Ball” army. Personally I would incorporate ghosts into the mix after third expansion is secured. Also make sure to continue to upgrade mech and bio units
this needs to be revised since you provide no solution to archons which will roflstomp every unit in your composition. I 100% agree that mech-bio works against tech-toss. but it seems that new protoss plays very zergy with their chargelots and archons (going pure gateway templar +one robo for immortals and observers). mech doesnt bring anything good to the table vs gateway.
Hey. I see you expand late (both 2nd and 3rd expansion), and I've not seen you get a 4th in any of your replays. So I just wondered what your thoughts are on expanding with this build? Is it not safe to get a quicker 3rd/4th, or is the build just alot stronger if you spend that money on army, and hope to win before the 20th minute?
Also, since there arn't any really long games here, do you feel this unit compo is viable in the really late game, or should you start mixing in thors?
I also see that you're cheap on the weapon/armour upgrades, is this because you wish to focus on getting to 150 food as soon as possible and push? And won't this make you lag behind if the game goes past that push(e.g. your push resultet in a armytrade, and the game drags on)?
Against HT based builds, focuse fire on his/her stalker or HTs using tanks and , kite and spread out the hellions+MM to minimze storm damage. Also we would build more medivacs than vikings when facing HT based builds. If game goes on longer, put down 2 more barracks and factory per each base we construct and continue to build on the core of “Terran Death Ball” army. Personally I would incorporate ghosts into the mix after third expansion is secured. Also make sure to continue to upgrade mech and bio units
this needs to be revised since you provide no solution to archons which will roflstomp every unit in your composition. I 100% agree that mech-bio works against tech-toss. but it seems that new protoss plays very zergy with their chargelots and archons (going pure gateway templar +one robo for immortals and observers). mech doesnt bring anything good to the table vs gateway.
I guess you would have many ghosts anyway since archons usually come after HTs. BFH for the chargelots and ghosts for the archons. Pretty micro intensive though...
The OP is one of the best threads Ive ever seen with *JUST THE SCOUTING INFO* all by itself. You could take out the strat entirely and this is still awesome, never seen anything quite as detailed in scouting the other race.
Great work. Ive been meching vs toss for some time with decent success and I believe I will modify what I am doing in order to take advantage of this great scouting info. I am fairly high masters and I had no idea how to scout certain things P was doing, this is really good stuff.
This is really, really well done. I might even have to abandon my old build for a while and play around with this. Just the amazing versatility on its own is astounding. I like the various different kinds of timing pushes that you have analyzed and found to be the proper response due to the scouting information you have. Abusing this and then transitioning into this "Terran deathball" suits my style very much.
Well written guide. However the build relies prety much on mostly standart play . And it is even with standart play mostly stopable well that is still good at this game nothing macro 1a2a3a imba atm. You should try when this is already your main terretory to find solutions for people who can deal with that style i know that once 1 push is stopped you wont have any unit upgrades wich is auto lose bio mech itself is viable aswell . I lost to only 1 terran thus far who played split map mech with turret creeping and air support towards my with having a critical mass of tanks wich wont allow me pushes , pf support inclusive and as final touch adding vikings and BCs to stop a maxed carrier fleet from doing any damage.
Please consinder to abuse cost effectiveness for getting protoss into a nearly unwinable situation ,ty. Gotta get this TvP a bit more evolved since bio itself as opener is mostly the easy mode for protosses. Also think about playing on EU using NA ladder for slaying people is not practise beneficial
On June 14 2011 12:08 kNightLite wrote: Wonderful guide. I really liked how you showed scouting information (gas, gates, chrono) could be used to predict the opponent's build.
Most guides don't go down to that level of detail, they just say "oh, if he builds unit X then you build unit Y", but they don't tell you how to see unit X coming.
My only complaint is with you naming the build after yourself. Far too many people do it nowadays. I could easily argue that this build is merely a more fleshed out version of Polt Prime's TvP. The name game is silly. Most everybody's builds are fleshed out on the ladder (obviously you didn't craft this in isolation), which means that this build is a public resource...not a private one.
In any case, thank you for taking the time to put together the great guide. I hope you get featured.
I fail to see how he named the build after himself? The OP simply states that his (i.e Warden's TvP) consists of a 1:1:1 into the terran equivalent of a toss deathball.
Anyway, I really don't see why we should begrudge people of sticking their name on whatever builds/tricks/shenanigans they come up with. If the build is a total rip-off or merely a more polished version of something we saw in the GSL a few weeks ago, the name likely won't stick, and if it does we've simply ended up with some (hopefully) more convenient terminology. I dread the day I have to refer my my Maka-rax as an almost-but-not-quite-semi-proxied-rax.
There's a big difference between Artosis naming Maka's almost-but-not-quite-semi-proxied-rax a "Maka Rax", and Maka himself making a thread saying THIS IS MY RAX LOLOLOL (no matter how good the guide is)
This post was made by Griffith(TM).
Ah, but the fact remains he still did not actually name the build after himself. Furthermore, I just threw the maka-rax in there to illustrate what I meant by convenient terminology, I'm well aware the term was not coined by maka himself.
I can appreciate why you would think it presumtuous to name a build/style after yourself but I believe that in the long run such considerations will have to give in to practicality. Anywhooo, this is clearly belongs in another thread so I'll stop right here=)
So those implementing this build, I am curious to know when you transition into what when your second base is up. I basically pressure (or try to) with a raven/PDD and marine/tank at the 8:30 mark and then proceed to take my expansion as I attack. Then I build
1) 2 more rax (teched) for marauder/upgrades. 2) Vikings out of my star port (maybe use one for reconnaissance over the protoss base) 3) 2 more factories reactored with BF (For quick helions to deal with charge lot and probe harass) 4) Swap one reactored factory for a teched rax (Ghost out of one rax, marine/tank/helion out of the rest.
5) After third base (add a reactored port and another factory and more Bays/Armories for ups)
What tends to happen is that I can go for a two base all in push while simultaneously taking a third to replenish scv count. But in my losses, it's either not enough Vikings, not enough Ghosts, or just bad micro. However, I think the mid game double reactor factories really assists with mid game charge lot push.
@ Blamajama ... OP states that after 2nd base you gear up for a push at around 150 food. This is after you've got your 6 production buildings up. This would be much later than 8:30 - more like 11-15 min most likely. OP also recommends taking 3rd behind this attack, and moving into heavier ghost + upgrades after taking 3rd (if game goes on)
On June 15 2011 10:04 gavinashun wrote: @ Blamajama ... OP states that after 2nd base you gear up for a push at around 150 food. This is after you've got your 6 production buildings up. This would be much later than 8:30 - more like 11-15 min most likely. OP also recommends taking 3rd behind this attack, and moving into heavier ghost + upgrades after taking 3rd (if game goes on)
Not to take anything away from the OP, but I was already incorporating a similar 2-3 base build in my TvP's, now I am slightly refining it to fit my style. The two teched rax makes more sense then what I was doing before, but I basically was doing the jist of this minus all the details and depth listed in this guide. For people having trouble with mid game charge lot, I just threw out a suggestion that had been working for me.
I don't like implementing a build exactly as it is listed in a guide or shown in a replay. I take the build and then tweak it to my preferences to fit my style of play. This guide obviously filled me in on the key details I was missing, but I am going to be pretty consistent with what I have now, which is basically the same composition terran death ball. I just never seem to have the scouting information in my TvP's to react as this guide explains, and I refuse to waste scans, so I until then, I can't really make any radical changes to my early game. Until I understand the game to that detail, I probably won't get to a GM level, but I am not sure if even want to take my gaming that far... obviously want to improve though.
On June 15 2011 00:05 Serashin wrote: Well written guide. However the build relies prety much on mostly standart play . And it is even with standart play mostly stopable well that is still good at this game nothing macro 1a2a3a imba atm. You should try when this is already your main terretory to find solutions for people who can deal with that style i know that once 1 push is stopped you wont have any unit upgrades wich is auto lose bio mech itself is viable aswell . I lost to only 1 terran thus far who played split map mech with turret creeping and air support towards my with having a critical mass of tanks wich wont allow me pushes , pf support inclusive and as final touch adding vikings and BCs to stop a maxed carrier fleet from doing any damage.
Please consinder to abuse cost effectiveness for getting protoss into a nearly unwinable situation ,ty. Gotta get this TvP a bit more evolved since bio itself as opener is mostly the easy mode for protosses. Also think about playing on EU using NA ladder for slaying people is not practise beneficial
IMO the toughest thing about this is actually remembering what everything that you see with your scouting means. This info is very useful not only for this build but for TvP in general.
i didnt use the exact BO, but i played TvP with a MM/tank/viking/medivac/hellion build , pushing/getting 3rd with 150 food and i CRUSHED the toss quite comfortably. i used hellions for harass while turtling at the 3rd at xel naga caverns. I was surprised at the effectiveness of this comp. Toss went gateway/colloxen/immortal i play at top10 masters ladder
Okay.... so this guy 16 Nexus' and I skip the star port for the armory and go for a Thor all in with 12-14 scvs and marines. The guy holds it off seamlessly and wins by putting 3 cannons at the choke and warping in lots. It was a highground expansion on Shakturas... but I thought I would take it ez. Anything that I can do differently in the future?
Shakuras is way too huge to effectively thor all-in. Personally I think you'd be better off with some kind of marine/tank/banshee|raven push on Shakuras, where there are lots of good angles to shoot up the cliffs and PDD lets you shut down protoss movement. The build should be tunable to let you do that from your scouting.
This is definitely one of the strongest and safest builds with ample harassment opportunity indeed.
There are of course a feel weakness against more macro/upgrade/gateway unit focused builds but you have ample opportunity to use your lead in tech to level the field or even gain the advantage. Excellent build.
On June 15 2011 22:48 Tracil wrote: Shakuras is way too huge to effectively thor all-in. Personally I think you'd be better off with some kind of marine/tank/banshee|raven push on Shakuras, where there are lots of good angles to shoot up the cliffs and PDD lets you shut down protoss movement. The build should be tunable to let you do that from your scouting.
Banshees bring me to another thing. Is it better to pump medivacs or Banshee from the star port? I am constantly pumping rines out of a reactor and they only have 45 health. Banshees are actually more cost effective in terms of gas than medivacs (longer build time), but I am reluctant to burn 200/200 on cloak that early, or ever in my games. And the excess energy on them goes to waste. Even if I am going Thors (against Phoenix, and Banshees mix well with that), I just go Viking instead if I see colossi, and a couple of medivacs.
If a protoss took a quick 3rd expansion on a map like tal'darim or other maps with relatively easy to defend 3rd bases, should I attack prematurely to avoid him getting a base up, or is it better to still wait until the 150 food timing?
I'm obviously not the OP and am only low diamond ... so I don't have much credibility!
But I would think in this scenario you should attack earlier. It probably won't be that much before the 150 food though - protoss really isn't going to take their 3rd too much before 11-12 minutes, which shouldn't be too far before you get up to 150'ish.
On June 15 2011 22:48 Tracil wrote: Shakuras is way too huge to effectively thor all-in. Personally I think you'd be better off with some kind of marine/tank/banshee|raven push on Shakuras, where there are lots of good angles to shoot up the cliffs and PDD lets you shut down protoss movement. The build should be tunable to let you do that from your scouting.
Banshees bring me to another thing. Is it better to pump medivacs or Banshee from the star port? I am constantly pumping rines out of a reactor and they only have 45 health. Banshees are actually more cost effective in terms of gas than medivacs (longer build time), but I am reluctant to burn 200/200 on cloak that early, or ever in my games. And the excess energy on them goes to waste. Even if I am going Thors (against Phoenix, and Banshees mix well with that), I just go Viking instead if I see colossi, and a couple of medivacs.
I actually skip cloak and use the banshee for DPS and scouting. I like using it more than the raven since it's less gas intensive and I wanna put all my gas into more tanks, but the raven will keep you safe against DTs and lets you lock down an area with PDD, so there's a case for both of them.
Naturally, your opponent is forced to rush an observer out when he sees a banshee anyway.
Yeah but banshees would dictate a more stalker heavy responses, and you may be a PDD or a Raven short in the engagement. If you are going for Thors, then I'd go to Banshee production but not Tank/Banshee. Vikings have bigger range and will provide the vision for tanks, while keeping air superiority.
This seems great! But I'm sorry, when I saw this, I couldn't help but think of Artosis and "IF HE BUILDS ONE OF EVERYTHING, HOW DO I COUNTER IT!?!?!?!"
I've always despised the lack of Tanks in TvP, but I will give this a try and see if this fixes that. :D
After practicing it a couple times I gave it a shot on ladder and I must say it feels like a solid build. My opponent (ok not masters but 1350 diamond) immidately asked "how to stop this".
Then you know you're doing something right, I guess
I've tried this build a lot, and am really excited everytime the battle starts, but it barely ever works for me. Granted i'm only diamond, and my mechanics and unit control are lacking. I say that using this build requires masterful positioning and amazing mechanics, which I am not good enough to utilize the full potential. There are some things that I want to try that I noticed you did.
1. I noticed you only attack normally with 4 - 5 tanks, where I would have 7 or more at the same point, so you cut tanks, I am not. 2. Your ghost timing seems different in each game, I think I need to learn what triggers that response. 3. Early game pressure is really hard to hold off on some maps, where I think a 2 rax expand into factory and port is probably better for me. 4. It seems to me this build is really powerful on maps with a choke, but I've struggled severely on open maps like shattered temple.
Awesome guide none the less, and I have to say your unit control in the replays is amazing.
@maddowgawl ... low diamond, whose been playing this build now for a while (and was doing something similar off and on previously)
1. You will need to cut a few tanks, in order to be able to get the raven, and the 1-2 banshees which makes taking your expo super easy, while also putting some harass on opp ... also you'll want to get a few rounds of reactor vikings in as well (if protoss goes colossus, which is common of course) ... with all that plus upgrades (stim/combat shield/siege/blue flame/+1/concus) you're not going to have gas for constant tank production. That said, tank production is *mostly* constant in my experience.
2. What Blamajama said
3. Hmm... I think this build is incredibly safe vs. early pressure. Early bunker keeps you safe from zealot/stalker poke, and then tank/reactor marines/1-2 bunkers/+/- banshee keeps you very safe from 4-gate ... and once you get siege you can break out of any contain pretty easily ... you'd have to post a replay to get more feedback on any early pressure problems
4. This build actually takes its expansion very safely (and a bit late) since you're not expanding until you have 2 siege tanks and 1-2 banshees + a lot of marines. 2-3 siege tanks, 2 bunkers, and lots of marines (+ whatever else you get based on your reaction to opponent) is pretty darn safe regardless of the map. Also not sure if that was a typo, because shattered temple does have a pretty narrow choke on its natural...
Ohhh, pretty awesome. I've been trying to work on getting away from bio based armies in TvP and trying to ranch into 1-1-1 openings, but I've always found my mid-game to be quite weak as a result. Also, more tank usage = goooood.
Aweseeome guide. It doesn't just help us with the build itself, but it basically explains nearly every protoss opening in the game and what to scout for/expect, which I'm sure would benefit many clueless scouters.
I haven't been helped this much by a guide since Stylish's FPVODs for brood war. This is very well written. Thank you! Like others in the thread have said, I think a TvZ and TvT follow up would be equally well-received.
Hmmm i ran into this on the ladder and was wondering if there IS a counter to the terran deathball style. A counter section of the guide would make it more boss.
As a protoss user I find this thread realy scary ... Especialy the "scout->couter->win" part. I love to 1gate FE but i am aware that if T thors rushes I am dead. It didnt happent to often but it might change after your post. Anyway Good Job. Maybe you could race switch and make a simmilar guide for P .
I also tried the build in a few games, (won them all) really liked it, still I prefer my mobility. Im guessing its really strong with a easy to defend 3rd, otherwise.. Id go standard play instead.
As a question, because I 1gate FE in further positions/bigger maps, is the way to not autolose to the thor rush is saccing the nexus and then countering/containing in a bit because you've pulled 12 scv's for 2-3 minutes? A 1 gate FE should've paid for itself, and an oversaturated main, so the only problem is production.
On June 18 2011 09:16 Amui wrote: As a question, because I 1gate FE in further positions/bigger maps, is the way to not autolose to the thor rush is saccing the nexus and then countering/containing in a bit because you've pulled 12 scv's for 2-3 minutes? A 1 gate FE should've paid for itself, and an oversaturated main, so the only problem is production.
Great guide Warden! The only thing I'm concerned about is if I flat out lose my army then it will be hard to make another one fast enough but if I get steamrolled that bad then I'll prolly lose no matter what I do.
You wouldn't be able to tech to DTs in time against thor all ins if you are 1 gate expoing.
How many tanks do you get with this build? In what manner do you use them? Offensively/defensively?
It would really depend on whether you are up against HT or colossus based army. Vs colossus army you would want more vikings and vs HT army you would want more tanks (and only 1 or 2 vking to provide sight for your army).
I also appreciate everyone helping out each other to perfect this build
On some maps banshees are hard to use to great effect. Mostly because of lack of airspace behind the bases. What would you recommend then? Go straight to siege tanks and expand?
Most of the time the combined kills of my banshees are only like 6-10. Was it still worth it then? I guess keeping the opponent in his base has a lot of value, but at the same time he can't really attack in to siege tanks either.
Great guide, very detailed. I rarely used hellions in TvP, but will try doing so now (they're a really underused unit).
I'm not sure if I agree with putting MM and hellion on the same hotkey though... stutter stepping with hellions in the same group means they will never fire because of their delay animation, and needing to select all your marines and marauders (instead of hitting a control group) to stutter step with in a fight wastes valuable time. Of course, it all depends on your own comfort level I guess.
On June 18 2011 22:02 stipe145 wrote: Seems Bratok is using a similiar build against Socke at Dreamhack on Shakuras. Early expand-1-1-1-2 Barracks - Second Factory - Helions.
it was pretty much the same build. bratok also did the 0/3 thor hellion strat vs morrow that synyster posted. Seems like bratok has been reading the strat forum :D
I was watching your replay vs Slog, and I noticed while you're transitioning into your bio/mech army, there seems to be a lull around the 10min mark when you swap your rax and starport. For about 2 minutes you weren't pumping out of your starport and you didn't make a tank out of the tech labbed factory. It's also during this time where you put down 2 more rax.
I assume you acknowledge that during the period you're taking your nat you can't support producing out of all your facilities? I guess the swapping was important to produce marauders and research stim, and your factory was used to research blue flame. It just seemed a bit unrefined, although I guess people don't calculate build orders into the midgame and usually just go with the situation.
edit: For example, you mention to make a 2nd factory and add a reactor, but it seems your reactored starport was not building anything. Wouldn't it be more refined to swap your starport off of the techlab into nothing and build the factory on top of the reactor?
On June 18 2011 08:33 Catch]22 wrote: No, this 10 minute Marine Tank Bunker push is something completely different
Yes but if Warden is not quite sure what the tosser is doing, he starts with a Raven. That bunker at the front wont help much vs what you would see in the replay. I was just posting that comment for the two who posted before me. A fast observer and something similar is what they could try if this bothers them too much.
Watched replays, they are almost all one base or two base allins. Do you have any demonstrations of this in an extended macro game where the P doesn't fall over in one push?
I'd like to see how you hold 3-4 bases, how you react to P army movement and pressure in that scenario.
On June 19 2011 01:43 zdragon wrote: Watched replays, they are almost all one base or two base allins. Do you have any demonstrations of this in an extended macro game where the P doesn't fall over in one push?
I'd like to see how you hold 3-4 bases, how you react to P army movement and pressure in that scenario.
Good luck playing against protoss without utilizing 1 or 2 base timing attacks.
Hey, a lot of your games are on shattered Temple. Can you post some matches on maps like Terminus RE or some bigger than Xelnaga / Shattered. I couldn't imagine to have a Death ball more powerfull than protoss usual DeathBall. Thank you for this guide !
as I mentioned before? how does this fare vs carriers??? after all, we all know vikings wont cut it vs carriers... specially with one reactored port, going carriers with a zealot heavy army and maybe stalkers? or phoenixs?
Hey, a lot of your games are on shattered Temple. Can you post some matches on maps like Terminus RE or some bigger than Xelnaga / Shattered. I couldn't imagine to have a Death ball more powerfull than protoss usual DeathBall. Thank you for this guide !
I have not tried this strategy in big maps such as terminus re, and I would imagine it would not work nearly as well due to immobility of tanks.
as I mentioned before? how does this fare vs carriers??? after all, we all know vikings wont cut it vs carriers... specially with one reactored port, going carriers with a zealot heavy army and maybe stalkers? or phoenixs?
This build obviously would not work vs carriers. The key here would be to go for a timing push before he builds too many carriers. You can scout the tech he's going into by harassing/flying around using your banshees, I dont know where you got the idea that vikings won't cut it vs carriers. With sufficient move/attack micro of vikings you can fend off carriers.
I'm a zerg player, and when I offrace as T, vs P, i like to try to use a unit composition like this ^^ its really cool + fun to play with, and is very solid against all protoss styles. Great guide warden! Thanks for putting in the time to introduce many terran players to such a solid strategy!
How many tanks do you get with this build? In what manner do you use them? Offensively/defensively?
It would really depend on whether you are up against HT or colossus based army. Vs colossus army you would want more vikings and vs HT army you would want more tanks (and only 1 or 2 vking to provide sight for your army).
I also appreciate everyone helping out each other to perfect this build
You may take a bit of econ damage but if you delay it long enough you should be able to get the dts out.
So, I am about to try this, looks very very nice indeed. 1. My question is, is this viable vs Zerg? or maybe some tweaking....to adapt better to Zerg? Or it is just not viable vs them?
I'd like to see a Terran deathball vs Z
2. Why did you not always make a wall? sometimes you do, other times not?
3. Lastly, how do you decide when to make banshee or viking first? I saw your game where he had a void ray, and luckily you had vikings. So which to build first, viking / banshee?
mmm is still what is strongest against toss. it gives harrassment options and rax units own gateway units. to counter the toss tech you either need vikings, ghosts, and at least even with upgrades. bunkers give you the option to taake a fast expand and get an early econ lead. the way i play tvp is the most efficient.
This guide is amazing and comprehensive - thank you for sharing it. Already it has improved my competitiveness against toss. My first game after studying the guide is a case in point. It makes me wonder why I hadn't explored 1:1:1 builds to a greater extent. Thanks also for explaining the various clues regarding protoss builds.
yo by the time your hellion scouts his 1 gate FE wouldnt you have already started your starport - and thus making it impossible to do the thor allin to counter it? Or can you only do thor allin when you see the FE with your scouting scv. Or maybe thor allin is possible with a couple starport units?
its very interresting to use the early hellion to scout again the toss to check what built he plays the advantage of this built is that you can adapt to the built of the toss and counter him the unit combo makes terran army versatile against anything the toss has
the only weakness is
once your deathball is stoped and you lost the shees and raven you never built them again from what i saw because you have only 1 starport and that is busy to built 2x vikings
On June 22 2011 04:50 ozeake wrote: However: On June 12 2011 20:27 WardenSC wrote: In any case, the proper response is to go for an EEEE HAN TIMING
On June 12 2011 20:27 WardenSC wrote: I know that this is the EEEE HAN TIMING for me to win.
On June 12 2011 20:27 WardenSC wrote: I scream EEEE HAN TIMING and run into his base for the win.
If you are going to use korean phrases, at least get it right. A quick google search would show that "ee han timing" is the correct form.
Thank you very much for the correction. I can speak Korean fluently more so than English but I guess you had to let me know I wrote it that way to exaggerate and make the guide fun to read. But I guess you weren't amused Mr.Korean Professor!
This guide kicks tushy! I've noticed protoss players lately being way more diligent about getting forge upgrades, which prove to be very effective against terran. Armor especially, stacked on top of guardian shields, makes marines do almost no damage to zealots (here's a game between Gatored and KawaiiRice that shows just how powerful upgraded zealots can be ). Blue-flame hellions seem like a great way to side-step those chrono-boosted armor upgrades and burn-through those armor+guardian shield zealots.
not trolling but i needed for my game was having a separate control group for siegetanks and vikings. that's absolutely what i needed to sniper colossi without control click fumbling. ty ty!!
On June 22 2011 06:16 WardenSC wrote: Thank you very much for the correction. I can speak Korean fluently more so than English but I guess you had to let me know I wrote it that way to exaggerate and make the guide fun to read. But I guess you weren't amused Mr.Korean Professor!
Regards,
Warden
I assume if you wrote a BW protoss guide you would also refer to reavers as RIBO RIBO RIBO every time you mention them, then? It doesn't fit well into a serious business 8-page (on my resolution and settings anyway) strategy guide. Cool passive aggressive condension bro, your rating is D-.
On June 22 2011 13:41 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Would someone help me , why is it sometimes he makes a wall, other times not?
VS Protoss dont you have to make a wall everytime? Or its just personal preference?
I only make a partial wall earlier and if I think or scout (reasons written in the guide) 4 gate or DT opening, I prepare by making a full wall. If I am facing 3 gate stargate push, I don't make a full wall because void ray is just gonna shoot it down.
On June 22 2011 06:16 WardenSC wrote: Thank you very much for the correction. I can speak Korean fluently more so than English but I guess you had to let me know I wrote it that way to exaggerate and make the guide fun to read. But I guess you weren't amused Mr.Korean Professor!
Regards,
Warden
I assume if you wrote a BW protoss guide you would also refer to reavers as RIBO RIBO RIBO every time you mention them, then? It doesn't fit well into a serious business 8-page (on my resolution and settings anyway) strategy guide. Cool passive aggressive condension bro, your rating is D-.
Way to be a dick to a guy making a good contribution to TL, bro.
This style has the advantage of being able to tech switch easily and quickly if needed, allowing you to play a more effective reactive game against your opponent.
It's biggest weakness is upgrades, as you're getting vikings+mech+bio.
Just here to say thanks, this build has pretty much singlehandly made my TvP somewhat okish, MMMVG always annoyed me beyond what should be possible.
The only thing I have difficulty with is judging if an engagement is going to go well or extremely poorly, but I'm guessing that will come with time ;p.
Yikes....just saw that game of you vs Huk on his stream. The early game was really solid...you got a good scout and got the proper response, but Huk just straight up outmicroed his blink stalkers against everything xD. What do you think you could've done differently there?
Speaking of HuK, what do you do against his wierd "20food 1gate FE", tried to thor this, but he just had soooo many units way more than regular due to the cutting.
Using this build, I got absolutely destroyed by a 1 gate FE into DT at 8:30. My all-in arrived seconds after the first two DTs warped in and my push was killed in a matter of seconds.
LDPDC ... if you read the OP, the response to DTs is (1) scout for them, (2) build a raven
if you see 2 gas with your scv/helion and aren't sure what the tech path is you've got to play safe and go viking-->raven out of your starport ... as was detailed in the OP
1 gate FE into DTs should be a build order win for you ... if you see the DT and FE, you take your ball + raven + 10 SCVs and that is an easy win
Very nice guide and BO Warden. I like that this build can fight heads on with collosus/HT/Immortals.
I'm wondering though,why do you make so many helions,I feel they are wasted in combat situations, as their dps is abysmal and they die after a shot or two. Wouldn't it be better to make more maurauders/marines instead for the same cost? Unless the opponent makes a thousand zealots,they seem wasted :/.
Also you said this BO is not ideal for large maps, what do you usually use for the bigger maps? MMM/Vikings/Ghosts with more emphasis on maurauders?
Why are the videos not working for me? I even tried to go to sc2replays and download them and put them in my replay folder...but, they don't show up. When I try to click on the link in the post it pulls up SC2 but my screen stays black. Any ideas?
On June 23 2011 07:44 gavinashun wrote: LDPDC ... if you read the OP, the response to DTs is (1) scout for them, (2) build a raven
if you see 2 gas with your scv/helion and aren't sure what the tech path is you've got to play safe and go viking-->raven out of your starport ... as was detailed in the OP
1 gate FE into DTs should be a build order win for you ... if you see the DT and FE, you take your ball + raven + 10 SCVs and that is an easy win
Thanks for the answer yet I don't feel like it's so simple. This was a gaseless 1 gate expand into DT.
- My SCV scouted no gaz, 1 pylon and 1 gate down the choke and 1 brand new nexus in natural.
- My helion scouted a lot of probes and around 8 units (zealots, stalkers, sentries). As he had sentries a did not figure he was doing a very gaz intensive build yet my level is poor (plat) and I clearly missed something here. At that point anyway I was already commited in all-in and had no starport (Right after the helion, I got my lab and an armory).
If we look at the OP, it's like case #5 but "reverse" with first expend then 3 gate DT but looks like case #2.
=> I decided to go all-in before the second Thor which is just what xiWarden does (checked this afterwards). I hit him @8:30, 2 DT warp-in @ 8:30, I get crushed.
Anything I did wrong beyond scouting properly which was quite hard to pull because of stalkers? Any way of countering this build? Is it only a skill issue?
On June 23 2011 07:44 gavinashun wrote: LDPDC ... if you read the OP, the response to DTs is (1) scout for them, (2) build a raven
if you see 2 gas with your scv/helion and aren't sure what the tech path is you've got to play safe and go viking-->raven out of your starport ... as was detailed in the OP
1 gate FE into DTs should be a build order win for you ... if you see the DT and FE, you take your ball + raven + 10 SCVs and that is an easy win
Thanks for the answer yet I don't feel like it's so simple. This was a gaseless 1 gate expand into DT.
- My SCV scouted no gaz, 1 pylon and 1 gate down the choke and 1 brand new nexus in natural.
- My helion scouted a lot of probes and around 8 units (zealots, stalkers, sentries). As he had sentries a did not figure he was doing a very gaz intensive build yet my level is poor (plat) and I clearly missed something here. At that point anyway I was already commited in all-in and had no starport (Right after the helion, I got my lab and an armory).
If we look at the OP, it's like case #5 but "reverse" with first expend then 3 gate DT but looks like case #2.
=> I decided to go all-in before the second Thor which is just what xiWarden does (checked this afterwards). I hit him @8:30, 2 DT warp-in @ 8:30, I get crushed.
Anything I did wrong beyond scouting properly which was quite hard to pull because of stalkers? Any way of countering this build? Is it only a skill issue?
Hi there,
Pretty sure this is a macro issue for you, you should be arriving at his base sooner then this with a thor rush.
@LDPTDC ... ah in that case, if it is a gasless 1 gate FE, which you should be able to scout pretty easily, then that would lead into the 1-base timing all-in
A protoss who goes 1 gate FE will not be able to handle this ... also a build order win, unless the map is very large.
The OP recommended that when you see this fast a FE immediately building an armory, 1 thor, and then push with banshee, 1 thor, marines, and SVCs ... this will generally roll him.
Not in the OP, but another way to do this is to forget the armory and start building tanks, keep building banshees and marines, and push out at around 3 tanks, 2-3 banshees, lots of marines, and scvs - this will be about 8 minutes, then push out i believe ... i like to time it so that siege mode finishes while you are on your way to their base ... This is a pretty common 1-base timing (e.g. thorzain did it recently at MLG a few times) ... you should be able to roll a 1 gate FE with either of these
Again, caveat is larger maps or cross position metal etc.
On June 22 2011 06:16 WardenSC wrote: Thank you very much for the correction. I can speak Korean fluently more so than English but I guess you had to let me know I wrote it that way to exaggerate and make the guide fun to read. But I guess you weren't amused Mr.Korean Professor!
Regards,
Warden
I assume if you wrote a BW protoss guide you would also refer to reavers as RIBO RIBO RIBO every time you mention them, then? It doesn't fit well into a serious business 8-page (on my resolution and settings anyway) strategy guide. Cool passive aggressive condension bro, your rating is D-.
someone needs to ban this troll.
I think the good part about this guide is the explanation of protoss openings and the genius use of a hellion scout.I'm not for the deathball though: I think having so many units that require micro to pull off makes it incredible hard to engage properly in a battle.
Being a GM myself I just tried this out. I had an econ advantage which if i had gone for the conventional MMM I would've rolled the toss over. However he attacked me with chargelots HTs immortals while i was halfway sieged and I got rolled.
I had hellions, tanks, marines, ghosts, medivacs, vikings, and a raven. it was a torture moving that across the map - hellions too fast to fit into any unit group, ghosts need a separate unit hotkey by themselves, marines can't share with any of those, medivacs and vikings just needs to follow a unit i guess, and raven needs yet another separate hotkey. I was so messed up with all the new unit control groups that i couldn't control my army at all.
I'm low masters and I have had no luck making this work for the reasons Muse just listed. I can't control all the stuff basically. The proper micro required seems crazy. I don't even know what order to do things. Stim first, then emp , then pdd? All the while trying to kite your barracks units and control vikings? Furthermore these battles can be decisive in a few seconds so mis-micro and game over.
That being said, Warden posted some convincing replays so I guess the high micro guys can pull it off.
The Terran Deathball consists of two parts: Siege tanks and vikings are siege units, and need to be covered Marines, marauders, hellions absorb the damage (making medivacs very good to have)
I find that hellions have good synergy with the mobile bio army, spearheading the attack while you take a good position. They clean up chargelots that bio often has difficulty dealing with, and it allows the bio to stay in front, rather than kiting the gateway portion of the toss army.
Warden notes that siege tanks and vikings are supposed to focusfire colossi. Basically you drag the mobile bio army in between the toss death ball and your tanks, and a-move it towards his army, while shift-clicking the colossi with your siege units. Even though I'm "only" rank 16 diamond, my TvP improved drastically with this strategy. It's important to note, though, that the 170 food (blame Day9 for teaching me that term) is crucial, and anything later will allow protoss to outmacro you. I usually push when protoss is around 150-160 food. I reach my desired food count and composition around the 15 minute mark. The most difficult thing about this build is keeping up with supply and not let him kill you first, which I much prefer over the bio army that rarely stands up to the protoss endgame.
This post is great, and has helped me a lot in my TvP. I'm almost shocked by how few views/replies this guide has and it is definitely the best scouting guide for TvP on TL.
I'm having difficulty in the stage after the first 2 banshees when protoss is opening "safe" (2 gate or 3 gate robo into expo). If the toss splits his stalkers to both of his mineral lines, the banshee harass is kind of shut down. Then I get getting punished by stalkers and 3 or 4 immortal before my 3 rax with tech labs can kick in. Would you agree this is the weakest timing of this build?
It seems like the 2 responses could be to lean marine/banshee and dont' swap add ons (faster), or lean marauder/medivac while swapping addons (better for late game?). Do you have a particular preference for this timing?
When I was a noob in the beta, I did something like this all the time. My marine, tank, raven push was seemingly unstoppable. The protoss adapted, however, and started to crush me, so I switched to heavy bio. I am glad that you write this excellent guide. Now, I can go back to my starting style again
so TvP has been the bane of my existance at high diamond. I followed the broad stroked guideline of this post.. I just wiped the floor with a 1300 masters protoss player.
On June 26 2011 11:55 cskalias.pbe wrote: This post is great, and has helped me a lot in my TvP. I'm almost shocked by how few views/replies this guide has and it is definitely the best scouting guide for TvP on TL.
I'm having difficulty in the stage after the first 2 banshees when protoss is opening "safe" (2 gate or 3 gate robo into expo). If the toss splits his stalkers to both of his mineral lines, the banshee harass is kind of shut down. Then I get getting punished by stalkers and 3 or 4 immortal before my 3 rax with tech labs can kick in. Would you agree this is the weakest timing of this build?
It seems like the 2 responses could be to lean marine/banshee and dont' swap add ons (faster), or lean marauder/medivac while swapping addons (better for late game?). Do you have a particular preference for this timing?
This.
Along with QXC's "12 Weeks" Episode, easily one of the best Terran Resources around
Great guide but the OP didnt answered this question :
On June 21 2011 07:08 chrusher97 wrote: yo by the time your hellion scouts his 1 gate FE wouldnt you have already started your starport - and thus making it impossible to do the thor allin to counter it? Or can you only do thor allin when you see the FE with your scouting scv. Or maybe thor allin is possible with a couple starport units?
I played some games using this build and when i scout the 1 gate expend with my hellion, starport is half built.. Too late to make an armory and thor allin..
On June 21 2011 07:08 chrusher97 wrote: yo by the time your hellion scouts his 1 gate FE wouldnt you have already started your starport - and thus making it impossible to do the thor allin to counter it? Or can you only do thor allin when you see the FE with your scouting scv. Or maybe thor allin is possible with a couple starport units?
I played some games using this build and when i scout the 1 gate expend with my hellion, starport is half built.. Too late to make an armory and thor allin..
There's nothing wrong with cancelling your starport. It frees up gas to immideately throw down the armory, and it might feel wasteful and late, but once you start pumping thors, the protoss army seems incredibly tiny so early in the game. I always manage to take down the nexus. If he doesn't leave the game though, don't push him. Go home and expand into the death ball. Your 2-4 thors will keep you alive at home if he chooses to go all-in.
So using this build i spotted 2 gates and a twilight. I quickly assume DT's (which i was correct) And get a turret and a raven out. However, instead of sticking with the dt's, he morphs them into archons and gets chargelots.... What composition of your death-ball do you recommend for archon chargelot?
This is easily the best and most comprehensive guide on TvP I've seen. At this amateur level, I really haven't had any other option other than one-basing (and RQing on things like cross spawn Tal'Darim)
On June 23 2011 04:39 Synystyr wrote: Yikes....just saw that game of you vs Huk on his stream. The early game was really solid...you got a good scout and got the proper response, but Huk just straight up outmicroed his blink stalkers against everything xD. What do you think you could've done differently there?
Basically against his blink stalker opening (not DT opening), I should've expanded, continued to make tanks, MMM army and go for a stim timing push instead of trying to go one base all in. ( I was really eager to just finish him there and that was my mistake). With some marauders with concussive, it would've nullfied his blink stalker micro greatly. Lesson well learned,
On June 23 2011 04:49 Catch]22 wrote: Speaking of HuK, what do you do against his wierd "20food 1gate FE", tried to thor this, but he just had soooo many units way more than regular due to the cutting.
Personally I've never encountered this particular build so I wouldn't be able to comment on it. However, I can tell you that with sufficient micro (surrounding scvs on thor so zealots dont have the surface area to attack and also microing the marines), I don't think I've lost using thor all in vs 1 gate into expansion. With that being said, I wouldn't use thor all in on big maps such as tal darim altar due to the long rush distance.
LDPDC's question has been answered very well by fellow TL member, gavinashun so I won't go into it. Btw its great to see members contributing to each other
On June 23 2011 13:13 Wilco wrote: Why are the videos not working for me? I even tried to go to sc2replays and download them and put them in my replay folder...but, they don't show up. When I try to click on the link in the post it pulls up SC2 but my screen stays black. Any ideas?
Wilco, it must be a techincal issue for you with regards to the replays - I would ask them in tech support section. I am sorry but can't help you with that
On June 24 2011 11:45 OSM.OneManArmy wrote: What would a 2-Gate expo into a 3gate robo off of one base be? (which possibility should i consider it to be as)
You should consider this as "safe protoss builds" and expand with caution into making the terran death ball army - don't salvage the bunker at the ramp too quickly. When the 2 bunkers in natural are complete, move your army down the ramp, secure your expansion and salvage the bunker at top of the ramp.
On June 25 2011 02:23 mGMUSE wrote: I had hellions, tanks, marines, ghosts, medivacs, vikings, and a raven. it was a torture moving that across the map - hellions too fast to fit into any unit group, ghosts need a separate unit hotkey by themselves, marines can't share with any of those, medivacs and vikings just needs to follow a unit i guess, and raven needs yet another separate hotkey. I was so messed up with all the new unit control groups that i couldn't control my army at all.
The downfall of this build may be that this is a micro intensive build purely because of all the mix of units in the army composition - but at the same time, I believe this is also the strong point of the build. With sufficient practice games, you should be able to get used to all the casting/army control needed
On June 25 2011 02:40 Bonesy wrote: I'm low masters and I have had no luck making this work for the reasons Muse just listed. I can't control all the stuff basically. The proper micro required seems crazy. I don't even know what order to do things. Stim first, then emp , then pdd? All the while trying to kite your barracks units and control vikings? Furthermore these battles can be decisive in a few seconds so mis-micro and game over.
That's pretty much what 200 vs 200 food battles will boil down to; One single micro mistake can mean the difference between victory and defeat I would pdd first, stim then emp, but that's just my preference. You can go in order as you deem confortable
On June 25 2011 03:03 Incei wrote: Warden notes that siege tanks and vikings are supposed to focusfire colossi. Basically you drag the mobile bio army in between the toss death ball and your tanks, and a-move it towards his army, while shift-clicking the colossi with your siege units.
Incei, you've analyzed my strategy perfectly except this one I wouldn't a-move into his army with infantry and hellions but kite the protoss army just enough to give time for vikings/tanks to destroy most of the colossus. Then a-move to finish the rest of protoss army.
On June 26 2011 11:55 cskalias.pbe wrote: This post is great, and has helped me a lot in my TvP. I'm almost shocked by how few views/replies this guide has and it is definitely the best scouting guide for TvP on TL.
I'm having difficulty in the stage after the first 2 banshees when protoss is opening "safe" (2 gate or 3 gate robo into expo). If the toss splits his stalkers to both of his mineral lines, the banshee harass is kind of shut down. Then I get getting punished by stalkers and 3 or 4 immortal before my 3 rax with tech labs can kick in. Would you agree this is the weakest timing of this build?
It seems like the 2 responses could be to lean marine/banshee and dont' swap add ons (faster), or lean marauder/medivac while swapping addons (better for late game?). Do you have a particular preference for this timing?
A good protoss player would split the stalker army and minimize the damage by the two banshees. However you can still do other type of harass such as destroying the pylons placed in the edge of his main base etc while scouting what his main army composition looks like. With regards to stalkers/immortal push, I believe I have a replay between Shokan where he goes for a similar timing push when I did not have enough marauders. Please check out that replay to see how I defended. With pdd and scvs reparing the two bunkers, and also the tanks focus firing on the stalkers, you should be able to fend off this timing push.
On June 21 2011 07:08 chrusher97 wrote: yo by the time your hellion scouts his 1 gate FE wouldnt you have already started your starport - and thus making it impossible to do the thor allin to counter it? Or can you only do thor allin when you see the FE with your scouting scv. Or maybe thor allin is possible with a couple starport units?
I played some games using this build and when i scout the 1 gate expend with my hellion, starport is half built.. Too late to make an armory and thor allin..
I have attached a replay vs Perfect where he went 1 gate into expand and I fell into same situation where I had a starport built. In this case, cut all unit production and expand asap into making a terran death ball army for a timing push. You should not be too behind provided that your banshees get 5-6 probe kills Please look at replay #17 for reference.
On June 27 2011 03:12 OSM.OneManArmy wrote: So using this build i spotted 2 gates and a twilight. I quickly assume DT's (which i was correct) And get a turret and a raven out. However, instead of sticking with the dt's, he morphs them into archons and gets chargelots.... What composition of your death-ball do you recommend for archon chargelot?
He should not have charge upgraded in time if you go for an all in with scvs as soon as raven pops out; It should be a build order win for you. Please take a look at my replays vs DT openings If you encounter this composition mid game, marauders and blue flame hellions should take care of them pretty easily
On June 27 2011 08:04 assaxito wrote: what about scan his base @ possibility #6?
This is a perfectly viable option; However, personally I don't like to waste scans and would rather opt for a safe opening with better economy by using energy on a mule. This is because I feel that scanning is pretty much gambling at best (hit and miss); Good protoss players will hide their tech.
Hey warden I have a question I have been doing a similar build style to this and I have problems when the opponent opens pheonix expand into colo pheonix plus bio. What should I do? Do you do a all in early on or if you try for the death ball do you get a lot of vikings or none?
On June 27 2011 11:06 Shiver wrote: Hey warden I have a question I have been doing a similar build style to this and I have problems when the opponent opens pheonix expand into colo pheonix plus bio. What should I do? Do you do a all in early on or if you try for the death ball do you get a lot of vikings or none?
Please take time to read the whole guide before asking questions... You can go for a timing all in with 2 thors, scvs and marines - as specified in possibility #4.
On June 27 2011 13:43 CPTHammer.464 wrote: Warden, do you plan on streaming and showing us these build as they happen? Hearing you talk through your thought process would be HUGE!
To answer the question below, I stream daily from Mon-Fri 10am-4pm PST and play ladder/custom games with commentary. I have to say that I am not having as much success using this build as I used to eversince I posted this guide. It seems that whenever my opponents see me in ladder, they just cut corners and blind counter my build without scouting for what I am actually doing. I can only assume that they have read my guide and counter my counter builds . With that being said, you guys should have good amount of success using this build since the opponents you will face won't know what you will be doing
So good to see Warden youself answer questions. I have the same question as OneManArmy. And i think you did not resolve it. The senario may be.. I scout the protoss does 3gate robo the safe build. Then i go Terran death ball. After i secure my nat and harrass and scout by banshees, i see 2-3 stalkers in the mineral line and also HTs. What will you react when you see HTs? I guess you will add some ghost in your army composition, and more medivacs as well. when the food count reaches around 120-150 at the time I wanna attack, with my terarn death ball, composed of marauders, marines, few hellions, 2-3 ghosts, 5-6 tanks, 1 raven, 2banshees, 3-4 medivac or more. I meet the protoss army with losts of chargelots, less than 8 stalkers, 8-10 HTs, 2-3 sentries.
Well, EMPs do absorb energys from some HTs, but he still attacks me with 2-3storms and crushes my MMM ball by his 2 armed chargelots. After storms, he fuses all HTs into Archons and my tanks are all detroyed without even killing one Archon.
In the terran death ball, my raven does little effect. PDDs just deal with those few stalkers which soon vanish in my tanks fire. Two banshees do some help but not much. MMM ball can kite his chargelots, right? but in the death ball, tanks are the main DPS. You kite. you lose your tanks once your MMM leave the position between chargelots and tanks. and MMM though survive but Archons own them all.
I think, surely, I have to change my death ball composition. But how? What will you react as you see the protoss go chargelots and HTs then archons?
The problem is: You've seen his army with lots chargelots and HTs or is going thay way. What will you do next?
Thanks Warden. I love you 111 opening guide. It really improves my understanding of protoss's opening so that I can defend them pretty well.
One more question. I find that it's not easy to hold 4gate push in Tel'darim LE because at the choke between your main and nat. You don't have the high ground advantage. At6:00, siege mode is not finished yet if you pop one tank and then siege mode and then the second. 4SCV auto repair does not hold the target firing from stalkers and zealots at one bunker, but with high ground advantage, 4SCV might be enough for it.
What will you do? 1.Do not use warden's build or any 111 opening in no-high-ground ramp map? and what is your suggestion for opening? 2.more SCVs? I do not think this is a good idea, cause the more time he pressues you in the front line, you lose more in economy. 3. siege mode first? I am not sure if it works well. Pop one viking and siege mode first might get you chance to scare them away, but do you think this is good idea? 4. To defend 4BG at the high ground at Nat or the choke at Nat will be better? but I do not think so...
Don't like 1/1/1 strategies that don't have a way of harass into pressure built into them. Unless you take a quick second base, and the 1/1/1 with Siege Tanks just does not do that for me.
This post has improved my TVP by a lot with all the scouting information. Would like to seek advice on the engagement & position. Most of the time i manage to get econ ahead around 150-160 food but i lost a few games when my army was on the way to the protoss's natural. If i engage in the middle of the map, i waste my PDD as they can just retreat. Should i use a banshee to harrass, and meanwhile siege at his natural? How can i keep the protoss army in his base so i can siege right outside his natural expansion.
On June 27 2011 18:47 Birnie wrote: So good to see Warden youself answer questions. I have the same question as OneManArmy. And i think you did not resolve it. The senario may be.. I scout the protoss does 3gate robo the safe build. Then i go Terran death ball. After i secure my nat and harrass and scout by banshees, i see 2-3 stalkers in the mineral line and also HTs. What will you react when you see HTs? I guess you will add some ghost in your army composition, and more medivacs as well. when the food count reaches around 120-150 at the time I wanna attack, with my terarn death ball, composed of marauders, marines, few hellions, 2-3 ghosts, 5-6 tanks, 1 raven, 2banshees, 3-4 medivac or more. I meet the protoss army with losts of chargelots, less than 8 stalkers, 8-10 HTs, 2-3 sentries.
Well, EMPs do absorb energys from some HTs, but he still attacks me with 2-3storms and crushes my MMM ball by his 2 armed chargelots. After storms, he fuses all HTs into Archons and my tanks are all detroyed without even killing one Archon.
In the terran death ball, my raven does little effect. PDDs just deal with those few stalkers which soon vanish in my tanks fire. Two banshees do some help but not much. MMM ball can kite his chargelots, right? but in the death ball, tanks are the main DPS. You kite. you lose your tanks once your MMM leave the position between chargelots and tanks. and MMM though survive but Archons own them all.
I think, surely, I have to change my death ball composition. But how? What will you react as you see the protoss go chargelots and HTs then archons?
The problem is: You've seen his army with lots chargelots and HTs or is going thay way. What will you do next?
Thanks Warden. I love you 111 opening guide. It really improves my understanding of protoss's opening so that I can defend them pretty well.
One more question. I find that it's not easy to hold 4gate push in Tel'darim LE because at the choke between your main and nat. You don't have the high ground advantage. At6:00, siege mode is not finished yet if you pop one tank and then siege mode and then the second. 4SCV auto repair does not hold the target firing from stalkers and zealots at one bunker, but with high ground advantage, 4SCV might be enough for it.
What will you do? 1.Do not use warden's build or any 111 opening in no-high-ground ramp map? and what is your suggestion for opening? 2.more SCVs? I do not think this is a good idea, cause the more time he pressues you in the front line, you lose more in economy. 3. siege mode first? I am not sure if it works well. Pop one viking and siege mode first might get you chance to scare them away, but do you think this is good idea? 4. To defend 4BG at the high ground at Nat or the choke at Nat will be better? but I do not think so...
Thanks for all your effort and reply.
if you scout chargelot/HT heavy, you make more BF hellions + ghosts. don't make as many tanks as tanks don't do so well against chargelot. you have to react to what your opponent is doing. this 1-1-1 is versatile for that very reason. this terran deathball isn't a all-in-one deathball, you have to adjust accordingly.
111 is allin. There's no way to catch up to a good protoss player if your timing attack doesn't work. He will be so ahead in infrastructure, in his upgrades, gate count etc. It is suicide to try to switch back to bio, you will just be extraordinarily behind. His standard composition simply crushes your port/tank army. It's only when he doesn't have the upgrades, doesn't have the tech, doesn't have the unit count, that port/tank shines.
The transitions are mech or mass air. While mech or air are inferior to bio, and eventually outmuscled by protoss, you won't be as behind in upgrades. Instead of waiting for stim, meds, combat shields, AND being behind in attack/armor, you only need to throw down the production facilities. Any map where 2 base is strong, these transitions will be viable.
Bio does have problems with open naturals, so this sort of play may be very good for that sort of map.
EDIT: Changed my mind about mech. It's too inconsistent against certain compositions, should just go for mass port + marines.
In possibility 1, for all your replays, your opponents left when their pushes fail.
If they stayed and tried to play it out, would you just push them after you broke their attack, or would you expand and go for terran death ball or something else?
Hihi! So, I just recently switched from BW to SC2 and I have a question about this build. In BW I used to play Factory heavy vs P but in SC2 mech doesn't seem that viable. Is this build the most legit you can go if you wanna go more torwards the "mech" way rather than pure bio with medics?
On June 29 2011 10:35 naventus wrote: Played a number of games with this.
111 is allin. There's no way to catch up to a good protoss player if your timing attack doesn't work. He will be so ahead in infrastructure, in his upgrades, gate count etc. It is suicide to try to switch back to bio, you will just be extraordinarily behind. His standard composition simply crushes your port/tank army. It's only when he doesn't have the upgrades, doesn't have the tech, doesn't have the unit count, that port/tank shines.
The transitions are mech or mass air. While mech or air are inferior to bio, and eventually outmuscled by protoss, you won't be as behind in upgrades. Instead of waiting for stim, meds, combat shields, AND being behind in attack/armor, you only need to throw down the production facilities. Any map where 2 base is strong, these transitions will be viable.
Bio does have problems with open naturals, so this sort of play may be very good for that sort of map.
EDIT: Changed my mind about mech. It's too inconsistent against certain compositions, should just go for mass port + marines.
1-1-1 is Allin? I don't understand you. I've played about 15 games with this strategy, and with proper information and harass, I was able to hold and beat many unit compositions by making good use of the versatility of this build and just putting down the correct follow-up based on what I scout.
I think the basic dynamics of this build is about scouting, harassing, and scouting-harasing, every 1 minute of the game so you can keep up the correct unit composition and dictate the pace of the matchup.
I think the "switch back" to bio is kind of irrelevant: you aren't "switching" back to nothing, because you didn't commit to nothing in the first place. The opening gives you many options to chose from, sinergizing with terran's add-on switching.
I think the idea behind the deathball is exactly to not commit yourself, keeping a balanced composition of almost all unit types, changing their numbers as you see fit. Having medivacs, vikings, banshees, ravens, tanks, helions and bio on the board can do wonders if you know where, when and how to use them, alone (harass,drops), or in a group (defending, pushing).
I'm sure this build has its flaws, as all do, but I just see the terrans shining so much more when they make full use of their versatility.
You have no clue what you are talking about, mixed army != strong army; composition response != strategy response. If P survives your push and has his gateway infrastructure + tech + earlier expo, you are dead. He will outmacro you, outmuscle you, and just run you over.
Any biomech composition is directly inferior to bio ghost against P in the long term.
Is there a single game in that replay pack where there is a true 3-4 base macro game? No, they are all 1-2 base allins.
Why would anyone want to extend the game to a macro 3-4 game?
If it does come to that, then many adaptions will have been made to deal with long term macro battles. Sorry but I just fail to see how MMM Ghost is so superior than this late game...
i think a way to make this build not all in would be to make it 1-1-cc-1 instead of 1-1-1
think about it, you can open up reactor marines and still get out tons of marines by the time a voidray rush hits, then you get factory and can get out a siege mode tank before 4gate hits
then, you can make a command center instead of a starport, and this CC should come at a time where if you scout your enemy fast expanded you can simply build another and you know since your enemy fast expanded he cannot hit you with a a strong 9 minutes gateway attack that your tanks cannot beat
so, this 1-1-cc-1 build should always build a fairly fast CC right after rax/fact HOWEVER that cc is still slower than huks 20food FE 4gate
SO, by the 6.5 minute mark you wanna scout to see if your enemy fast expanded. if you see the enemy expansion done at 6.5 minutes with mining happening it means he already did the 20food huk FE 4gate. when you see your enemy fast expanded super fast, you STOP unit production (because your marines/tanks you have right now can beat his 9 minute attack no matter what it is) and quickly make a starport then another CC. the starport goes onto the reactor and makes a raven. why? because even though he fast expanded it could still be a DT expand, and because of that you wanna get your raven out by 9 minutes.
SO, if you scout the enemy went huks 20food FE 4gate, you should scout it by 6:30, and once you do scout it make a starport and a third command center
you should have the money to do that because you stopped unit production at 6.5 minutes and you also are using all your energy on mules (no scans)
i believe that right there should put you on even economy with a FE toss, and still get a raven out in time to be safe against DT's
On June 30 2011 05:06 naventus wrote: You have no clue what you are talking about, mixed army != strong army; composition response != strategy response. If P survives your push and has his gateway infrastructure + tech + earlier expo, you are dead. He will outmacro you, outmuscle you, and just run you over.
Any biomech composition is directly inferior to bio ghost against P in the long term.
Is there a single game in that replay pack where there is a true 3-4 base macro game? No, they are all 1-2 base allins.
Well thats logical bc you cant get and keep a macro advantage with tech play as terran and tech as terran is simply underpowerd in longterm focus. Hence why if you do a 1/1/1 tech build you will have to go allin on a specific timing to maximise the effiency of your tech units. There is no way you can reinforce your tankforce fast enough, nor rebuild the raven, nor keep up with upgrades and substaining your bio force in a macro game. This logicaly means you cant have longterm focus simply because you lose units you cant cost effiencly replace.
On June 30 2011 05:06 naventus wrote: You have no clue what you are talking about, mixed army != strong army; composition response != strategy response. If P survives your push and has his gateway infrastructure + tech + earlier expo, you are dead. He will outmacro you, outmuscle you, and just run you over.
Any biomech composition is directly inferior to bio ghost against P in the long term.
Is there a single game in that replay pack where there is a true 3-4 base macro game? No, they are all 1-2 base allins.
Well thats logical bc you cant get and keep a macro advantage with tech play as terran and tech as terran is simply underpowerd in longterm focus. Hence why if you do a 1/1/1 tech build you will have to go allin on a specific timing to maximise the effiency of your tech units. There is no way you can reinforce your tankforce fast enough, nor rebuild the raven, nor keep up with upgrades and substaining your bio force in a macro game. This logicaly means you cant have longterm focus simply because you lose units you cant cost effiencly replace.
ive done testing in the unit tester and lots of thors + a few vikings + plenty blue flame hellions + EMP + some marines will be pretty good against gateway+storm+archon+collossi+immortal armies
it seems like you only wanna have a few tanks, 3 tops maybe 4 if you are super risky, and the realy power unit is the thor. as long you emp imortals, thors destroy everything except the collossi, and a few vikings and sieged tanks left over stop the collossi from being too thratening
the MAIN PROBLEM with 1-1-1 mech builds is that the protoss expands faster, and thus has a larger army. which is why i suggest maybe working on some kind of 1-1-cc-1 build that still gets a raven fast enough to be safe against DT expands, but still also gets a fairly fast CC
On June 30 2011 05:06 naventus wrote: You have no clue what you are talking about, mixed army != strong army; composition response != strategy response. If P survives your push and has his gateway infrastructure + tech + earlier expo, you are dead. He will outmacro you, outmuscle you, and just run you over.
Any biomech composition is directly inferior to bio ghost against P in the long term.
Is there a single game in that replay pack where there is a true 3-4 base macro game? No, they are all 1-2 base allins.
Well thats logical bc you cant get and keep a macro advantage with tech play as terran and tech as terran is simply underpowerd in longterm focus. Hence why if you do a 1/1/1 tech build you will have to go allin on a specific timing to maximise the effiency of your tech units. There is no way you can reinforce your tankforce fast enough, nor rebuild the raven, nor keep up with upgrades and substaining your bio force in a macro game. This logicaly means you cant have longterm focus simply because you lose units you cant cost effiencly replace.
I agree, that's exactly what I'm saying, this is allin by construction. If you sit down and think about it for a bit, it should be extremely obvious that if you lose any major fight, you won't have the correct infrastructure to get back.
You either win on 1-2 base, or you lose the game against a competent player.
The other dude and the OP too keep blathering on about how this is adaptable, though, when it's not. The only thing is sort of does is adapt to 1 base P play.
On June 30 2011 05:06 naventus wrote: You have no clue what you are talking about, mixed army != strong army; composition response != strategy response. If P survives your push and has his gateway infrastructure + tech + earlier expo, you are dead. He will outmacro you, outmuscle you, and just run you over.
Any biomech composition is directly inferior to bio ghost against P in the long term.
Is there a single game in that replay pack where there is a true 3-4 base macro game? No, they are all 1-2 base allins.
Well thats logical bc you cant get and keep a macro advantage with tech play as terran and tech as terran is simply underpowerd in longterm focus. Hence why if you do a 1/1/1 tech build you will have to go allin on a specific timing to maximise the effiency of your tech units. There is no way you can reinforce your tankforce fast enough, nor rebuild the raven, nor keep up with upgrades and substaining your bio force in a macro game. This logicaly means you cant have longterm focus simply because you lose units you cant cost effiencly replace.
I agree, that's exactly what I'm saying, this is allin by construction. If you sit down and think about it for a bit, it should be extremely obvious that if you lose any major fight, you won't have the correct infrastructure to get back.
You either win on 1-2 base, or you lose the game against a competent player.
The other dude and the OP too keep blathering on about how this is adaptable, though, when it's not. The only thing is sort of does is adapt to 1 base P play.
what do you think about my idea of turning this build into some kind of 1-1-1 build that gets a CC before the starport
So against what build do you get CC? Imagine the P did 3gate or 2 gaterobo expo.
First, you will be skipping the second gas to get the CC. This decision would have to be made with only one piece of information: is P 1gas or 2gas.
T not having 2 gas kills any chance of doing damage with cloak, or an early raven to stock energy. If you use marine tank defense, you are susceptible auto loss against phoenix. And on any map with a tight ramp, FF will contain you. So by the time you push out to your natural what time is it? 9m? 10m?
P will have had his expansion running for 2m by that time. A greedier build, provided you scouted it, might even have had it running for 4m. So you float down, and now what? You need to trade your army against his ASAP before his tech kicks in. But you also invested 400 into a CC for 200minerals more / min, when the core units in your push are gas based. So you basically neuter your own push options with the CC, and then play catchup.
--
Dropping a CC on moveout is not terrible because you actually float on minerals with this build. More gas means a stronger followup, but again, I don't see a bio followup working. Mass air makes sense to me since it's on a separate tech from the typical P techs. Sometimes it might even be better to save scans instead for helping with picking off observer/finding P army. Minerals are just not important.
I agree about the uselesness of a dropping CC, or trying to mix CC in the 1-1-1. The point of the build IS to get the 2 banshees to harass, and to get a raven as well, so skipping this just makes it a whole different build (objective wise).
We do skip this as a reaction to what toss is making, but only and only if...
4Servy and naven..I mean, the other guy: I think I understand where you are going with the arguments now, and "This logicaly means you cant have longterm focus simply because you lose units you cant cost effiencly replace." makes alot of sense, but I think here is where our communication failed.
The difference between our thinking-process is I'm treating this as an opening, and an opening only, meaning I just like how the units playout until early midgame. After EXPO I see nothing that stops me from dropping 2-3 more barracks and pump a more bio concentrated army, with the support of a few tanks, banshees (if any left, once more I see no need for replacing them, as they act as harassment tools), ravens, medivacs. After all, we will make a starport sometime in the game right? So this can easily switch to a a very solid 1 fac, 1 -2sp , 3-6 rax late game compostion.
My point beeing: I fail to see how this 1-1-1 opening STOPS me from beeing able to followup with mass barracks, or whatever you biolovers enjoy.
That's why I said you are clueless. You don't actually understand the game at a level where you can see the flaws in your reasoning.
Come back when you understand that dropping rax at 9-10m you will be behind in every area to the P. When will you complete the transition? P will be ready to fight at 13-14m, stim will be done in time, but that's only 6-8 production cycles of units. 20 bio units? So you can't move out, P takes a 3rd and denies you your 3rd. Then you get to play like warden and sit 2 base to 200 and hope for P to fuck up.
Notice how he refuses to post any losses, or true macro games?
The other half of your army is tied up into subpar trash like tanks and banshee. Upgraded gate is directly superior to those units. P will have: larger gate count, upgrades complete, critical tech complete. Nothing prevents you from throwing down barracks, but that is that inferior decision against a competent player.
I never said this build was perfect, but it seems you are saying it's a complete failure, backing it up with too much theory.
I've played this build many times (don't know if you have) and every time I lose (yes, builds fail) I watch the replay to try and tune it up, try to make it better somehow, or even get to know its repairless flaws.
I don't see the point of flaming the effort of a fellow player that's to trying to bring to the table something other then 1 RAX - FE to mass MMM and opening up possibilities for a more interessting and fun game.
But hey, I guess we just won't agree on anything. The difference is I'm not prepotent to assume you are a clueless player; thats called respect. After all, I barely know you...
Wait I thought warden never really claimed this to be a true macro build because of the ee-han timing. arguing this is a macro build is bit pointless as this build depends entirely around the 150 food push. That said, I do think this is a powerful 2 base attack that depends entirely on the control from both sides. The fundamental problem with biomech is how to get to end game with a robust economy. I think getting 3 bases running is alright on some map like creavesse or Terminus where you only got one entrance. From there drops need to slow down his economy, at least you got both BF and rauders at your disposal. The problem is moving out to secure the fourth and engagements. Raven's pdd is essential to the success of this build and I doubt the toss is going to politely let you set up in front of his base :D. But I don't think its entirely fair to dismiss biomech quite yet as the potential are there.
On July 01 2011 00:55 naventus wrote: That's why I said you are clueless. You don't actually understand the game at a level where you can see the flaws in your reasoning.
Come back when you understand that dropping rax at 9-10m you will be behind in every area to the P. When will you complete the transition? P will be ready to fight at 13-14m, stim will be done in time, but that's only 6-8 production cycles of units. 20 bio units? So you can't move out, P takes a 3rd and denies you your 3rd. Then you get to play like warden and sit 2 base to 200 and hope for P to fuck up.
Notice how he refuses to post any losses, or true macro games?
The other half of your army is tied up into subpar trash like tanks and banshee. Upgraded gate is directly superior to those units. P will have: larger gate count, upgrades complete, critical tech complete. Nothing prevents you from throwing down barracks, but that is that inferior decision against a competent player.
have you ever thought your problem with this build is your not a top #20 Grandmaster or playing in that league?
you obviously care if this is a so called "All-In" or not, You do realize that as you reach the highest level of competition and the skill levels begin to converge It becomes more and more correct to push thinner and thinner edges in order to win. Who cares if the strategy ends with an all-in, if thats the choice to win the game then its stupid not to make it.
Can you read my posts more carefully if you are going to spout kneejerk shit? Instead of trying to comprehend my points, you just exaggerate it into strawmen.
I have no problem with this being an allin, it absolutely takes advantage of timing, and it's definitely a nice strat to have in the toolbox. I don't think it's a failure, I think it's an excellent analysis of how to make 111 work. In fact, I've made this position clear in earlier posts.
But it is a lie that this is a scalable build. It's a lie that it's an adaptive build that can respond to a solid macro game by P. That's all I'm trying to bring to light.
The problem is that you care more about perceived respect than about objectively understanding the game.
On July 01 2011 02:16 naventus wrote: Can you read my posts more carefully if you are going to spout kneejerk shit? Instead of trying to comprehend my points, you just exaggerate it into strawmen.
I have no problem with this being an allin, it absolutely takes advantage of timing, and it's definitely a nice strat to have in the toolbox. I don't think it's a failure, I think it's an excellent analysis of how to make 111 work. In fact, I've made this position clear in earlier posts.
But it is a lie that this is a scalable build. It's a lie that it's an adaptive build that can respond to a solid macro game by P. That's all I'm trying to bring to light.
The problem is that you care more about perceived respect than about objectively understanding the game.
Agree with this. With this build you have to kill or cripple the protoss in the 150 food attack(or before that). Fact is the higher up you come the better P players are at not dying to this push. I've played a similar style for a long time (biomech) but it always feels a bit gimmicky.
Fun strategy that i like to use myself and can win you a lot of games but its just not a solid longterm strategy in my opinion.
Terran is underpowerd when using tech so dont use tech its that simple. If you tech to not do a big timing push and then start using bio might aswell use bio from the start.
I developed a build that beats Protoss 95% of the time and someone told me I was using Warden's build. Anyway, I had to come see this build and now I realize he was wrong, but not entirely.
I open cloak banshees, mainly because it counters every Protoss build that doesn't include a robo facility. Second, I build a Raven after the banshees to snipe their observer and start massing energy for PDDs. You wouldn't believe how effective mobile detection is in this match up, Protoss really can't play very well when they are blind, and it keeps them in their base in fear to move out because of the banshees+raven.
Now, while constantly building marines and Hellions early on, I will research Blue Flame and throw down a Ghost Academy. I'll add a Medivac in my composition for drops and to heal forces after engagements. After Blue Flame is completed, I swap the Factory on the reactor from Barracks and by now have 2 tech lab rax, 1 reactor factory, and 1 tech lab starport.
This is when I destroy the rocks and, using superior army composition, hold map control. Should have roughly 8 BFHellions, 16 Marines, 4 Marauders, 2 Ghosts, 1 Raven, 2 Banshees, 1 Medivac. Throw your 3rd up at the gold, build 4 more rax, 1 more factory, armory, another starport. If its collosi get mass vikings, and if its templars, get thors and more ghosts.
The blue flame hellions are the backbone of this strategy. Not only do they serve as phenomenal harassment tools, melting mineral lines during larger engagements while the opponent is distracted, but they also melt the three most deadly Protoss units to a Terran: Zealots, Sentries and High Templar. Not only the MASSIVE bonuses they get to damaging light units, their splash damage will not cause friendly fire!
I do not use tanks very often in this match up for that reason, and because Zealots cause tank fire to splash on your forces and they are immobile, therefore forcing your army to hold engagements instead of being able to easily retreat while psi storm is melting them. To counter Stalkers you have Marauders and PDDs.
When is your CC in that build? It feels like around 7-8m?
What happens against P builds that get exp at 5-6m, with obs in time for cloak?
And re: hellions, do people understand that a BF hellion needs to hit 2 light targets to breakeven with marine DPS? And you would need to hit 6 targets to breakeven against nonlight.
On July 04 2011 13:26 SKaREO wrote: I developed a build that beats Protoss 95% of the time and someone told me I was using Warden's build. Anyway, I had to come see this build and now I realize he was wrong, but not entirely.
I open cloak banshees, mainly because it counters every Protoss build that doesn't include a robo facility. Second, I build a Raven after the banshees to snipe their observer and start massing energy for PDDs. You wouldn't believe how effective mobile detection is in this match up, Protoss really can't play very well when they are blind, and it keeps them in their base in fear to move out because of the banshees+raven.
Now, while constantly building marines and Hellions early on, I will research Blue Flame and throw down a Ghost Academy. I'll add a Medivac in my composition for drops and to heal forces after engagements. After Blue Flame is completed, I swap the Factory on the reactor from Barracks and by now have 2 tech lab rax, 1 reactor factory, and 1 tech lab starport.
This is when I destroy the rocks and, using superior army composition, hold map control. Should have roughly 8 BFHellions, 16 Marines, 4 Marauders, 2 Ghosts, 1 Raven, 2 Banshees, 1 Medivac. Throw your 3rd up at the gold, build 4 more rax, 1 more factory, armory, another starport. If its collosi get mass vikings, and if its templars, get thors and more ghosts.
The blue flame hellions are the backbone of this strategy. Not only do they serve as phenomenal harassment tools, melting mineral lines during larger engagements while the opponent is distracted, but they also melt the three most deadly Protoss units to a Terran: Zealots, Sentries and High Templar. Not only the MASSIVE bonuses they get to damaging light units, their splash damage will not cause friendly fire!
I do not use tanks very often in this match up for that reason, and because Zealots cause tank fire to splash on your forces and they are immobile, therefore forcing your army to hold engagements instead of being able to easily retreat while psi storm is melting them. To counter Stalkers you have Marauders and PDDs.
That's my 2 cents.
Cloak banshee leaves you way behind vs any 1 gate fe robo build which is also the most common type of protoss fe. Fe with a quick forge and a cannon in each mineral line is also becoming more common (think Nada vs TT1 GSL world champs) and will also leave this opening in the dust.
On July 04 2011 13:53 naventus wrote: When is your CC in that build? It feels like around 7-8m?
What happens against P builds that get exp at 5-6m, with obs in time for cloak?
And re: hellions, do people understand that a BF hellion needs to hit 2 light targets to breakeven with marine DPS? And you would need to hit 6 targets to breakeven against nonlight.
Marines die very quickly in engagements, hellions don't so they get in more damage over-all (vs light of course)
On July 04 2011 13:53 naventus wrote: When is your CC in that build? It feels like around 7-8m?
What happens against P builds that get exp at 5-6m, with obs in time for cloak?
And re: hellions, do people understand that a BF hellion needs to hit 2 light targets to breakeven with marine DPS? And you would need to hit 6 targets to breakeven against nonlight.
Marines die very quickly in engagements, hellions don't so they get in more damage over-all (vs light of course)
True. You forgot about their speed. With good micro they last so much longer than marines that you can just sh*t on the marine's dps...
Have you ever tried any of your theorycraft at a high level? If hellions were superior to marines in a ground fight than they would actually be used in competitive since every T has a factory.
1) Hellions are not more durable than marines. Two marines are 110 HP vs 90 HP. Marines can be scattered throughout your concave to avoid them all getting hit by the same AOE. Marines in the back that will be alive will blast through zeals.
Hellions are often grouped up, most fights won't have positions where hellions can kite. Not to mention there's no kiting of stalker + colossus damage or chargezeal. Hellions need to be in the front instead of the back like marines because you need them to splash.
2) Hellions do abysmal combat DPS especially considering that the zeal line is usually scattered. When they hit your concave, you will be hitting 1 maybe 2 at best. So not only are you barely breaking even against marine DPS, it's not continuous DPS.
3) It doesn't matter that marines die. The point is that you trade them against his zeals. Unfortunately hellions do a much poorer job of trading against zeals in practice because of their cooldown, lack of upgrades, and positioning requirements.
On July 05 2011 01:20 naventus wrote: Have you ever tried any of your theorycraft at a high level? If hellions were superior to marines in a ground fight than they would actually be used in competitive since every T has a factory.
Admittedly my opponent makes a few mistakes as do I, but I think it's because he doesn't encounter this strategy too often and a counter to it isn't so obvious as the MMM ball.
As for why pro don't use hellions often, because the meta game hasn't shifted there yet and these type of build aren't considered strong standards in the GSL yet (although I have a feeling hellions will make a big comeback in this match up after some more testing.)
The reason marine DPS isn't good vs Protoss is because DPS stands for DAMAGE per SECOND.
Marines do 6 damage but the bread and butter Protoss units the Zealot and the Stalker have 1 armor, which makes marines do 5 damage to their health, decreasing the marine's effectiveness. Lets not even talk about Guardian Shield or fast armor upgrades lol.
Seconds are part of this derived statistic. How long do Marines last in a battle vs AOE Protoss units? A couple of seconds. How long do Hellions last? Much longer, because of their increased health, size (reduces AOE damage) and speed (which allows them to run away, kite, etc.)
On a side note, every race's mineral sink units are light units and mineral only. Hellions however beat all of them in a fight without any trouble at all. Blizzard probably intended the Hellion as the mineral sink killer.
I think part of the reason why this unit composition is so strong is that all the main damage dealers are getting massive bonuses. Marauders get a bonus against armored units while blue flame hellions get a bonus to light units. Vikings get a bonus to armored air while thors get a bonus to light air. So even if you are a bit behind in upgrades, your units should be dealing damage more effectively.
Zombo Joe is absolutely right about hellions being the mineral sink killers, as well as the mineral line killers. Almost every Protoss I encounter will transition to mass Zealots, psi storm and archons (pretty common late game transition against Terran) because they end up getting a lot of minerals built up since their more effective units are gas heavy. Hellions end up being super effective from beginning to end, while even an MMM strategy should stop building marines after Collosi is in play as they die almost instantly, often before they deal a single shot of damage.
Let's look at a typical critical timing around 14m, when P first gets his 3 colo, or his 2 armor upgrades complete.
Let's imagine you started production of hellions around 9-10m when your factory completed. By 14m you will have 8-10 hellions. Somewhere along the way you added a tech lab and did BF research no later than 12m. So you trade the gas of 2 vikings for that.
Let's assume you are also rushing for 2/2 by that time mark, so now you have approximately 20 food, or 1/3 of your army tied up into units that do not benefit from your upgrades. A hellion does less DPS than a single marine against upgraded gate. It also has no armor. So a hellion absolutely has to splash 2 light units to equal equivalent marine. And, suppose some hellions survived, now they have to hit SIX heavy units.
For the hellions to pay off, the P has to actually commit a micro error. He has to send his zealots together bunched into your concave. Yea hellions are OK when that happens, but if he prespreads his army, than they suck.
And let's talk about positioning. Just think about it, they are coming to you in a horizontal line, but your hellions shoot in a straight line. Your hellions need to be bunched up, together, and in front to get the most out of their splash damage. If you spread them through the concave, they don't benefit from the AOE. When you kite, you will also need to keep your army grouped together so that the zeals clump.
Compare against marines, they can be spread throughout the concave. When marines kite zeal colossi, they do so with the entire bio ball and split apart efficiently like you would against banelings, without being punished by needing splash.
And at the end of the fight, if you put the hellions up front they will be dead and you will have a shit of a time against the zeal warpin. Compare with marines, where every surviving marine essentially doubles the DPS of the remaining marauders against zeals.
TLDR: Marines benefit from upgrades. A single marine is superior DPS against everything. Better positioning, better followup to warpin
It's pretty simple, after a fight you will absolutely lose hellions crit mass, and then they are complete shit when you can't immediately blast away a ton of zeals.
---
People don't think marines are viable because they aren't using ghosts as well as they should be. Marine TTL (time to live) is not a problem if you land your EMPs.
dude i hade a game vs toss who 30 min ago and i emp his entire army with emp
but the problem is the ht were spread and had full engergy so my 3-4 emp hit perfect but
you are still doomed because emp just take 100 engergy away and not the entire mana
i mean its not impossbile but for terran is much harder to counter the caster unit then the caster unit cast storm or fungual to you
he must only hit your army with the cast but you must aim only for the caster squad itself and that is not really easy
about the hellion marine disscusion
marine are important and super strong with shield stim and +1 dmg uppgrade their dps is very high
but after 15 min they are useless then you can transition or abit ealier from marine to blue flame hellion if his army is not so stalker heavy
against zealot/ht i would prefer ghost marauder hellion with medivacs
the problem on warden bo is if you play banshee harras then you tell your enemy that you dont do a big attack in the near future so he can easily secure his expansion
i am more the type to pressure the toss with bio early on even if it ends in a all in
Banshee harass in two locations at once could force two Observers early on which means less (if any) Immortals and more Stalkers. Marauders are highly cost effective against Stalker heavy compositions, while Immortals would pose a bit of a problem early on with this strategy. Banshees give you a harassment tool, a scouting tool, and a way to force your opponents macro away from what he should be building.
To address the marine DPS discussion, Protoss who see marine heavy compositions will favor armor upgrades for their Zealots with guardian shield. This means more light units, which Blue Flame Hellions hard counter. This unit composition is not high dps, it has high alpha strike. You can do hit and run tactics and do significant damage in small doses.
On July 05 2011 01:20 naventus wrote: Have you ever tried any of your theorycraft at a high level? If hellions were superior to marines in a ground fight than they would actually be used in competitive since every T has a factory.
1) Hellions are not more durable than marines. Two marines are 110 HP vs 90 HP. Marines can be scattered throughout your concave to avoid them all getting hit by the same AOE. Marines in the back that will be alive will blast through zeals.
Hellions are often grouped up, most fights won't have positions where hellions can kite. Not to mention there's no kiting of stalker + colossus damage or chargezeal. Hellions need to be in the front instead of the back like marines because you need them to splash.
2) Hellions do abysmal combat DPS especially considering that the zeal line is usually scattered. When they hit your concave, you will be hitting 1 maybe 2 at best. So not only are you barely breaking even against marine DPS, it's not continuous DPS.
3) It doesn't matter that marines die. The point is that you trade them against his zeals. Unfortunately hellions do a much poorer job of trading against zeals in practice because of their cooldown, lack of upgrades, and positioning requirements.
Have you ever tried your theory craft at a high level? I mix in hellions all the time with great success. By your logic, every competitive Terran would get a raven in at least tvp and tvz because they already have a starport and ravens are amazing. And you know what? Terrans are starting to get more ravens now. Perhaps soon they will start getting more hellions. Remember when pros refused to get upgrades in the tvp match up even if they had an ebay or forge?
To answer your 3 points:
1. If the Terran is good enough to "scatter marines in his concave" then the Protoss should be good enough to target fire with colossi. Besides, spreading bio into the pure bio army that you're advocating to prevent your bio from taking aoe damage sounds rather silly. And unless you have 1 medivac per bio unit, stim still does damage, as the medivacs are busy healing other bio units, making a hellion hp = to 2 marine hp which the benefits of the marine being medivac healing and the hellion being less susceptible to splash.
2. Have you actually looked at the unit dps? Let's assume 2 atk ups for marines even, which is matched with 2 armour ups for the zealots--Protoss should never really be behind in upgrades due to chrono boost. Marines deal 6 damage at .57 speed. Except zealots have a base armour and guardian shield takes effect, reducing their damage to 3 damage at .57 speed. Hellions deal 24 damage at 2.5 speed (minus 5 from armour from 2 ups, 1 base and guard shield) = 19 at 2.5 speed. So Hellions deal ~1.5x the dps (~5 vs ~7.5) of a marine to a single zealot with a 2 upgrade difference. And then you have to factor in that hellions have splash; if you are hitting one target with a line splash unit then it is a control issue rather than a unit issue--there is no reason that the fastest ground unit in the match up should ever be out maneuvered into doing minimum dps. Also, marines almost never hit their full damage potential in a real game because they are always used in conjunction marauders to kite, meaning that the attack speed of the marine potentially drops by ~50% to 1 (read: hellions would do 3x the dps to a single target).
3. As aforementioned, hellions "trade" better with the zealots. And positioning requirements just means the player has to be competent, which should not be an issue in a high level guide coming from a player like warden.
Hellions also open the window to a myriad of harass options and also offer the best response to protoss who send out a single templar at a time to feedback/storm the terran army.
Also, you've clearly never seen hellions used if you think that they will only be hitting 1 zealot.
1) Hellion won't have armor upgrades, you will be taking +4, +6 from zeals, and +8, +12 from colossi. Scattering marines in concave is not magic or hard. Your units are clumped, and when you preconcave before fights, it's not that hard to make sure that your marines aren't all standing next to each other. All you are preventing is your 20 marines getting 3 shot at the start by all the colossi because you packed them next to each other.
2) Why are you factoring in GS? We are talking about chargelots, not only will they be way ahead of the army, you will also be kiting them back.
3) This guide is a guide of 1/2base allins. There's nothing here that represents a true macro game where you are trading production cycles. That's the entire flaw about hellions. Protoss can choose how he wants to mix up his composition from his 15 gates, but what are you going to do? Where are you going to get the time to set up 2-3 factories + get mech upgrades?
If a protoss sends out a single templar, you stim 3 marauders and kill it. --
I'm no GM, but I have seen 0 success with hellions in the army at 1400 master. What has worked for me, and you can see Koreans doing this like MMA vs MC, or even Nada's games last night, is 1 reactor marines / base. Matching his zeal count with just 1 marine each is a huge DPS gain.
Here's a tangential piece of evidence: go try unmicroed upped hellions vs upped zeals. Hellions actually lose. But unmicroed marines completely dominate the chargelots.
The ability to go EE HAN TIMING with the thors stops all greedy toss players in their tracks. SCV's uber-repair on thors also crushes so many toss options.
Luckily I like my lot/HT mix. HTs with feedback and chargelots eat thors alive...well thors with less than 12 scvs healing it...and storm takes awhile to research.
But then the terran death ball owns lots/HT .... ghosts are so sick.
BTW, can you please upload movies as well? It saves me a lot of time as it cuts to the part where the action takes place.
Naventus has a lot of good points. I love this guide for its scouting information and the wonderful way it shows protoss timings and weaknesses, but that is what I use it for. I believe you are "safer" if you go with a full on one base tank/banshee/rine/raven OR thor/banshee/rine/raven attack, and expo as you move out. Those are easier to control. This combo is very hard to control and its very very easy to make a mistake and get hammered.
The main point Naventus is correct about is that it wont last in the long run. You cant trade armies and keep on going with this. I used to play mech quite often, and even with just mech units and upgrades its very fragile. If they are ahead in upgrades (they will be), and have an army that is about 100 times easier to control, its not a good recipe for success.
This strat really exaggerates the fact that Terran has the highest skill cap. If you played the game on super slow speed (or have 600 useful apm) this composition would probably never lose with this timing attack, however that is not reality.
Naventus has a lot of bad points too. Hellions are way better vs zealots with or without charge than marines. I just tested it out in the unit tester and with an equal amount of supply from both terran/toss hellions perform about the same when unmicroed vs chargelots compared to marines.
The thing is though if you're not microing your hellions or marines than you're playing must be subpar. When both marines and hellions are microed vs chargelots hellions can take out twice the supply of zealots vs using marines not only that but hellions apply splash damage to all of the units which pairs nicely with siege tanks splash damage, can instantly wipe out mineral lines, and can sniper templar effectively.
On July 05 2011 01:20 naventus wrote: Have you ever tried any of your theorycraft at a high level? If hellions were superior to marines in a ground fight than they would actually be used in competitive since every T has a factory. .
naventus, your theorycrafting is ridiculous. You want solid theorycrafting listen up cause solid theory is based in the fundamentals, not "Hellions are often grouped up, HP x vs Hp x, micro tactic y etc etc"
Your entire arguement focuses on the builds weak late game play or any longer macro game.
Disregarding the mirror match-ups, if you looked at the Win/loss of only the longer macro games, which race theoretically do you think fares best?
Argue any race other then Toss and you dont know much about sc2 theory. any surprise then, that a top level TvP build focuses on hitting timings to prevent this??
This situation you describe as being so bad for BF hellions is completely off base, Theoretically the value of BFH increases the larger the map the longer the match and comp% of light units in the villians army.
In these longer macro matches vs chargelots /HTs etc etc is theoretically an amazing position to be in
-edit- reading this post in the preview, I sound a bit like a d*(k. apology in adavanc
I wouldn't be too surprised if 20 bf hellions can kill 50 chargelots.......
EDIT: Not to mention not that I think about it charge effectively deals with marines because it makes stutter stepping much less effective and zealots do a huge amount of damage on contact to marines whereas hellions can still be micro ed to get hit hardly at all and do large amounts of splash damage.
EDIT #2: Just tested it out in the unit tester and with 40 marines i can handle up to 30 chargelots with decent stutter stepping. With 20 bf hellions I can handle well over 50 chargelots while taking minimal losses.
I'm not theorycrafting I'm trying to explain how the phenomena I have seen ingame works. You two sub50 count jokers are the ones regurgitating bullshit.
Any top level player will tell you that TvP is fairly even going into late game, especially after KA nerf. T attacks at multiple timings (dropships, ghosts, 2/2 etc), but that's the same with every race and matchup. Different builds will have different windows to punish.
Hellions don't beat zeals. Unupgraded hellions lose even harder. Same way how hellion gets overpowered by mass speedling. If you don't understand that, you haven't used hellions in any real games. Show me your high masters+ replays where you hellions destroy zeals.
EDIT: Yea you can kill infinity zeals with hellions with kiting, but that's why I said no micro. That's what you don't fucking understand since you've never played a real game. You don't have the time to drive around for 20s kiting zeals. You either clear the zeals asap, or you take too long and die to the rest of the P army.
TO WRAP UP ON HELLION VIABILITY: 1) Hellions are going to be behind on upgrades. 2) Hellions require distinct production that will be hard to fit into any build before 15m+ 3) It's unclear if hellion is even superior DPS.
What I fail to understand is why you wouldn't be microing your hellions? People micro their bio, so why wouldn't they micro their hellions? When engaging an army that's chargelot heavy you're supposed to lead in with your hellions so that you can kite them back and if the sentrys try to ff and you have siege tanks than hello splash damage.
Hellions are a good mineral sink leading into the late midgame and are a direct hard counter to chargelots. You generally don't need hellions tvp early/mid game so its not a huge problem that you cant produce them until the mid game as charge normally isn't out until the mid/late game unless the toss went templar before collosus.
Naventus, your arguments seem flawed. What good is +3 upgrades and guardian shielded zealots against hellions if it reduces the damage from 24 to 19? Versus dropping marine damage from 6 to 1? That mean every two marines does 2 damage to 1 zealot, while 1 hellion is doing 19 damage to 2 or more without even using upgrades. Sovern and Validity made pretty legit arguments for you and you ignored them. You haven't addressed any of the comments about the hellion's effectiveness in this match up, nor the replay I posted, so it's you who is "spewing the same regurgitated bull****" Also, how does your high post count correlate more experience in this match up?
@ naventus ... have you stated in this thread (sorry if I've missed it) what your league is? Seems like a lot of your arguments is based on (a) theorycraft and (b) what standard play is seen in tournaments/gsl/etc.
Which is fine, but I'm just wondering if this is coming from a gold player vs. masters.
Thanks - have appreciated your input in the thread.
Great writeup warden, I love watching your stream to! I'm just Plat random at the moment but I'm actually going to try to incorporate some of this play into my T. Thanks!!
the helion vs marine discussion aside.... this is an EXCELLENT guide!
I have been struggling with the late game bio vs storm that you get forced into when playing the usual bio-expand builds. following this guide and hitting a late-midgame push at around 110-130 supply has been very successful for me. in fact havent lost with it last 6 tvp.
also thanks for pointing out that if you have a fact up and toss greed-expands its auto win with the thor push. i just LOVED that information.
<3 keep it coming Warden. Looking forward to something similar for TvZ
This would make a valid argument against using marines, Hellions are so far ahead of your army they have plenty of time to kite Zealots away from the herd. You don't stutter micro Hellions, its far more forgiving with a cooldown of 2.5 seconds, and they can outrun Zealots, but if the Zealots have charge, they charge way out of position from gaurdian shields making it even easier to kill them.
2.) hellions are much worse than marines vs stalkers
Well that's kind of obvious why, but are they good against Marauders? because he'll have a bunch of those too, remember? Hellions can out micro stalkers pretty easily and they can be repaired very quickly.
SCVs repair more things than Medivacs can heal, and Medivacs cannot attack if needed, while SCVs can attack, block, build, etc. This makes me want to use more mech and less bio already.
You don't need DPS enhancements with Hellions, nor Armor so much, because most the time they aren't getting hit, and when they are it's meant to soak up fire after the Zealots are dead, so your Marauders can clean up whats left of the Protoss army.
Good guide. Even the information on scouting protoss openings alone is useful. I find that protoss is the most difficult race for me to scout so the tips in here for reading builds are great.
Enjoyed the read, even though I'm not terran or toss, but a Zerg! hehe
However, I have trouble reconciling the idea that 1 gate into expand is "too greedy" and "should be punished." Given, I'm not a or a , however I feel it's similar to when some Zerg's would argue that fast expanding in ZvZ isn't viable (though as a FE ZvZ'er myself, ((Shh don't tell any other Zergs I may face, hehe, jk, no go ahead and tell em, I can make it work regardless. )) I know it can work, hard to learn at first, but with mastery, and patience, it can work), and should also, "be punished".
Is this truly the case, in TvP, or is a 1 gate FE actually survivable as toss? My guess is the latter, that it may be tough micro and tight-timings, but I bet it can be made solid...
In any case though, good guide, enjoyed the read and the work you put into this! Now to make a deathball with more than 1-2 units... hehe
i like this opening for sure, can hold anything, held a void ray all in the other day, and i got 4 gated and would of held but forgot a supply depot (my bad)
i come up with a similar build by myself and it's working quite nice, Timing push at 9:00 with 2 tank,1 raven, 1 shee + 1 shee 50% done. expand behind it.
just used this bio mech mix and absolutely destroyed a immortal/stalker army. supplies were even. i had 4-5 tanks 10ish marines 10ish maruder vikings(thought collasus) 1 ghost and a few hellions. i think i lost maybe 15 supply after battle and he dropped from 150 to 90.
On July 07 2011 07:51 travis wrote: 2.) hellions are much worse than marines vs stalkers
Well that's kind of obvious why, but are they good against Marauders? because he'll have a bunch of those too, remember? Hellions can out micro stalkers pretty easily and they can be repaired very quickly.
Not sure if other people mentioned this, but I found an ok transition if you find out they 1 gate fe or core FE but you already started a starport: double starport cloaked banshee (iechoic composition).
get 2 banshee and raven like normal (except this time with cloak) wait for pdd, then push with reactored marines, single fac hellion, raven and banshees. At worse, you have map control and can expand. At best, they don't have either underinvested in observers, or lost them to marine/raven and you can pick apart their pylons/ tech.
what makes this build so powerful is the hellions IMO
because the hellions remove the most powerful part of the toss army (zealots)
every TvP i see is the terran getting bent over by zealots all game
imagine if a terran has 7 blueflame hellions instead of those 14 marines that got brought to 10% hp by a single storm
those hellions would shred all those zealots so well. removing that one thing that is just so annoying for terran to deal with. even if the hellions had zero upgrades, they still deal 20 a shot to +3 armored zealots
i think whats really making this strategy shine is the fact that he has blueflame hellions which kill all the zealots, which leaves stalkers left, and because stalkers are SO TERRIBLE AGAINST MARAUDERS as long as the protoss has no zealots it doesnt matter if its 50 stalkers vs 1 marauder id put my money on the terran (exaggeration but you get the picture)
imo if you take any terran strategy that can remove zealots from the picture its going to be powerful, because what left for the toss is stalkers and stalkers suck
I am finding that while waiting for armory you have plenty of gas for a medivac and using the medivac to transport the Thor gives the Thor counter a chance. It also heals marines, and gives uphill sight if needed. I have had mixed results trying this, though it is usually due to control issues and not because the strategy does not work.
Just an option for those of you who don't want to go into a macro game with a Toss that is slightly ahead from the start.
On July 07 2011 07:51 travis wrote: In my experience I love it when my opponent tries to add hellions into their army to fight my zealots. Especially once upgrades come into play.
There are several reasons for this
1.) it's harder to do stutter micro with the terran ball
2.) hellions are much worse than marines vs stalkers
On July 06 2011 09:55 naventus wrote: 20 BF hellions do better than 40 stimmed marines vs 20 chargelots? Does anyone here believe that to be true?
in a vacuum they do a lot better
Hmm my experience really differs from yours and I play both terran and protoss at a fairly high level.
1. I have never had any trouble stutter micro'ing with hellions mixed in, but that's probably because I give them their own control group and usually have them to the side.
2. The purpose of the hellions is to add another layer of maneuverability, snipe templars, and to kill zealots. Besides, in an even fight, your marines are usually dead from storm/colossi before you can start attacking stalkers.
3. I'm sure that in a battle your medivacs will have more than enough units to heal. With regards to an "after the fight" scenario, its more likely that you have either traded your hellions for zealots, or they have sustained little damage.
4. Ok but from my experience, hellions do well enough to not care.
On July 06 2011 07:42 naventus wrote: 1) Hellion won't have armor upgrades, you will be taking +4, +6 from zeals, and +8, +12 from colossi. Scattering marines in concave is not magic or hard. Your units are clumped, and when you preconcave before fights, it's not that hard to make sure that your marines aren't all standing next to each other. All you are preventing is your 20 marines getting 3 shot at the start by all the colossi because you packed them next to each other.
2) Why are you factoring in GS? We are talking about chargelots, not only will they be way ahead of the army, you will also be kiting them back.
3) This guide is a guide of 1/2base allins. There's nothing here that represents a true macro game where you are trading production cycles. That's the entire flaw about hellions. Protoss can choose how he wants to mix up his composition from his 15 gates, but what are you going to do? Where are you going to get the time to set up 2-3 factories + get mech upgrades?
If a protoss sends out a single templar, you stim 3 marauders and kill it. --
I'm no GM, but I have seen 0 success with hellions in the army at 1400 master. What has worked for me, and you can see Koreans doing this like MMA vs MC, or even Nada's games last night, is 1 reactor marines / base. Matching his zeal count with just 1 marine each is a huge DPS gain.
Here's a tangential piece of evidence: go try unmicroed upped hellions vs upped zeals. Hellions actually lose. But unmicroed marines completely dominate the chargelots.
1. I believe that the lower AOE damage taken more than compensates for the lack of armour upgrades.
2. I'm not sure what types of protoss players you play if they don't keep their zealots under guardian shield for most of fights/use FF to get the zealots dealing dmg. The chargebuff allowed super high #s of zealots to beat small bio balls with a clicking super far away from the sentries, but if a good protoss player is engaging in similar army fights with the terran, those zealots need to be under guardian shield--especially in a colossi based army where the zealots are more for tanking than damage.
3. While the guide is for 1-2 base "all-ins," spreading misinformation like mixing hellions into bioballs sucks without having applied it in game at a high level is a bit less than ideal. I'm not too sure how the protoss would vary his composition against bio + blueflame off "15 gates." Fifteen games are implies that the Terran and protoss are at least on 4 bases with the protoss having been maxed for a while with excess money for gateways. Aka the terran sucks at tvp. Transitioning to hellions is easy. Terrans always have the factory lying around, and you really don't need more hellions than 1 reactor factory (tech lab > research > switch for a barracks etc). I'm not too sure how tech switching came in.
Hmm... I don't think you've played very good protoss players if you think 3 marauders can snipe a Templar. That's 3 shots from the marauders in the face of blink stalkers. And even if successfully done, the marauders are still slower than the cheaper hellions.
I don't mean offense, but I don't think at 1400 masters a player can micro a bio ball and hellions at the same time. This results in the hellions being simply grouped in the same control group as the bio ball which hinders their effectiveness. And while Korean players are amazing, I think its worth noting how young sc2 is and how strategies are so underdeveloped. This means that something like mixing BFH into a bioball may be incredibly effective and simply underutilized.
Also, staging a fight without micro completely ignores the fact that hellions are the most mobile terran unit. That in and of itself has a pretty high value.
I did this build about 50 times since i read the topic.
Im Mid/High Master EU
Here are my conclusions :
Its very strong if the protoss player plays "old school", meaning his mix is stalkers sentrys collosus and some zealots. I won almost all of that kind of game when it was Terran deathball against Protoss deathball.
But when i play against Zealots heavy High Templar, i lost every single game even against some crappy players.
Dont know what to change in my composition but even with good emps, he can storm once or 2, then morph to archon. I can be far ahead in army, supply or eco, it dosnt change anything.
Im thinking of going back to bioball since P are now doing more and more of this responce to tank : heavy zealots and HT, and i dont know what to do
Thank you so much for putting so much work into this!
I'm not going to discuss marines/helions and dps/viability and all that.
But I still remember some of TLO's early games as terran, when he was struggling but managed to simply right-click his surviving helions into his opponents natural for a probetoast and gg So remember the threat of BFH to simply end the game in addition to their role in a big fight.
I recently read this thread and I have got to say thank you so much warden for posting this! :D. Out of the 8 or so TvP's I have played, I have only lost one and that was because I moved out into a 3 gate robo timing and lost half my army. Other than that it's been super easy. Once again I thank you!
On July 15 2011 17:53 legend4411 wrote: Good guide! What if p has large amount of zealots? I don't think hellions are effective when engaging. Hellions just die so fast
No blue flame hellions are ridiculous against chargelots, they MELT and marines are good verse chargelots with good micro. Also, with proper siege tank target firing your marines/hellions won't get splashed on by chargelots.
Warden! Just want to say this post has helped my TvP a hell of a lot. I'm still trying to remember what all the gas timings and buildings mean but so far I have improved greatly, and I like this more than MMM with Ghost + Viking.
On July 22 2011 05:15 mr_tolkien wrote: Just did a 1h30 daily (in French) on this ^^ The viewers really loved it !
I'm reencoding it for VoD right now, I'll post the link once it's done
Very cool. I speak a little bit of French, so I watched a bit of it. Thanks so much for getting Warden's guide out to our international friends =). Well done.
Hi Warden and thakyou for a very well written guide. Many people post various guides but I love the fact that you posted a guide that includes all of the branches (and more importantly, the reasoning behind the branches) of your 1-1-1 opening.
This has vastly improved my TvP (albeit after a fair learning curve) and I have also found a lot of use for it in RT 2v2 as well. It is just a solid, well rounded unit composition with great versatility.
wow very nice guide, ive been having some trouble against masters and am excited to try this out.
it also gives very nice details on how to scout protoss so you know what to expect from them. you can essentially use this knowledge and apply it to your own builds
I tried this build and got called a cheeser.. I guess pushing out with tank marine helions raven viking banshee with an expand is CLEARLY a cheese... rofl -.-
in mid-late/lategame i would build another starport to have one with techlab and one with reactor, just to be able to nonstop produce vikings AND raven. If your raven is alive you still can build some banshees which also fits in this build. But in early-/midgame i would switch as Hds said.
TY very much Warden <3 I follow this thread since the beginning and I must say that I've got great success with it at my modest silver level. I promoted also for my protoss friends
Mr Tolkien my french Bro rox also but you Tolki should invite a terran specialist with you, zerg master but you are not thinking as terran <3)
This is a good guide for seeing protoss BO and respond accordingly, this build is reactionary to what the toss is doing. But I'm having trouble placing tanks into the build. Tanks help greatly in defending your natural.but when it comes to the push the tanks seem to get overrun too quickly by all protoss anti tank units (zealots, archon, blinkstalker, immortals etc) and decent protoss would prevent you from having a strong siege position and attacking while unsieged.
I like adding ravens to the build as PDD helps immensely and deny obs and dt with thor being a reaction to protoss play. Maybe a build which goes the normal MMMGV with ravens mixed in instead of tanks?
At first I was hesitant with going with this because chargelots rape everything if you have tanks, but then I saw how damn good it was hahahaha. Great guide, thanks for posting! This is what Terran has needed for a long time.
For the 3 gate sentry expo couldnt you go for the EEE HAN TIMING with thor all in since it stomps the forcefeilds then sentrys tickle the thor and it tanks everything while ur marines are doing dps
I was thinking about an alternate version of this build to substitute out the tanks. I see that warden researches siege before producing tanks in some of his games, then gets 1 single tank, then goes straight for blue flame hellions, and starts tank production back up later on. Even then, he only has a very small handful of tanks.
My idea is that instead of wasting the resources on siege mode for just a few tanks, you could fake going tanks by making ~2, maybe 3 of them without siege mode, and then use the extra resources to get some harder counters in (extra banshees to deal with the immortals, for example.)
This also allows your army to be more versatile AND require less micro, all added bonuses.
Incredible job, really thank you very much. This playstyle is perfect for me, I've always hated bio viking vP, it always seems so fragile.
I tried it out last night and won in a nice long macro game. My first "deathball" push killed more of his army than mine while I continued to expand and keep him penned in. The unit comp is just very strong.
On July 28 2011 09:52 dk999 wrote: This is a good guide for seeing protoss BO and respond accordingly, this build is reactionary to what the toss is doing. But I'm having trouble placing tanks into the build. Tanks help greatly in defending your natural.but when it comes to the push the tanks seem to get overrun too quickly by all protoss anti tank units (zealots, archon, blinkstalker, immortals etc) and decent protoss would prevent you from having a strong siege position and attacking while unsieged.
I like adding ravens to the build as PDD helps immensely and deny obs and dt with thor being a reaction to protoss play. Maybe a build which goes the normal MMMGV with ravens mixed in instead of tanks?
Without a rep it's tough to say but perhaps your tank usage is sub optimal. As strange as it may sound watch some SC:BW TvP and watch how they use their tanks, use them the same way in SC2. I don't mean you should try to apply their builds or compositions, just watch how they maneuver their tanks and setup their pushes. You need to spread them out and keep your units infront of them. It works best if your units are very far infront of the tanks at first, then stutter step them backwards into the tanks. If your tank column is "deep" you can continue retreating backward through the forward tanks, but you do have to have your mobile army stop and fight at some point.
In general I find tanks to be invaluable but they're difficult to use properly. They're definitely a good addition to the unit comp.
On August 06 2011 22:56 renan3004 wrote: I'm having a little troubles to know when its the time to secure a third and transition to ghosts, any suggestions, tips?
make a third while u push with 150 food
get ghost academy if one of three happens:
u scout high templares -> instantly throw ghost academy (no matter when in game) u scout no stalkers heavy zealot immortal composition -> ghosts are more immportant than tanks vs this standart play - > get ghost academy right after throwing your third CC
btw great guide im using this for along time now (with few personal changes) and its awesome!
I just played against a protoss that took a 1 gate FE(when i scouted with hellion he now got 3 gates). so i strated producing banshees to send them at his base and started building my CC aswell, when i scouted my natural to see if it was safe to expand, the protoss army(around 5 stalkers and 6 zealots) were there, so i couldnt expand since i had some marines, tanks.
should i have to just harras and he will suppose to go the way back?, or i cant engage that with my banshees tanks marines to expand?, i made a mistake and atack his units at my natural only with my tanks and marines, but forgot about the banshees, even tho i lost.
On August 07 2011 12:16 Xenogears1 wrote: Nice guide !.
i got one question tho:
I just played against a protoss that took a 1 gate FE(when i scouted with hellion he now got 3 gates). so i strated producing banshees to send them at his base and started building my CC aswell, when i scouted my natural to see if it was safe to expand, the protoss army(around 5 stalkers and 6 zealots) were there, so i couldnt expand since i had some marines, tanks.
should i have to just harras and he will suppose to go the way back?, or i cant engage that with my banshees tanks marines to expand?, i made a mistake and atack his units at my natural only with my tanks and marines, but forgot about the banshees, even tho i lost.
btw this was on xelnaga caverns.
u expand in your own base while making your 2 tanks with siege mode, when its all done u can place your tanks at the ledge while going down with the rest of the army, with siege tank support and ravens pdd he must go back, then u make 2 bunkers down while flying the expo and place tanks at the new location to defend your natural.
this contain is actually good for you because if all of his army is at your natural it will make it harder for him to defend your banshee harras and blue flame drops
I'm a total effing nub, but I would LOVE to watch a Day[9] style analysis of your matches. You know, provide low-level reasoning for why you made what decisions at certain times. I'm sure this would help out a lot of Bronzers wanting to bust free of the lame.
So I found this guide incredibly helpful, but wanted to condense it into a visual format I could use as a cheatsheet while I'm playing. The result is up on reddit - hopefully a few other people will find it helpful, too!
Just saw you lose to a void ray rush from incontrol. In a perfect situation, what could you have done there to beat that? like 70% of my TvP losses are from a void ray rush just like that.
On August 11 2011 04:43 jusksmit wrote: Hey folks!
So I found this guide incredibly helpful, but wanted to condense it into a visual format I could use as a cheatsheet while I'm playing. The result is up on reddit - hopefully a few other people will find it helpful, too!
On August 12 2011 18:54 Vertical wrote: hi can u give me clue what's the indication if the protoss is playing VR + gateway as i found this build molested by that build
sorry bad english
I'm probably gonna quote the guide since I've been using build ever since the thread had only 2 pages.
Close to impossible to know which it is before his attack so just prepare for all three possibilities. 1) maek viking first then raven before the banshees 2) wall off with 2nd bunker
On August 12 2011 05:22 DevanT wrote: Just saw you lose to a void ray rush from incontrol. In a perfect situation, what could you have done there to beat that? like 70% of my TvP losses are from a void ray rush just like that.
If I was going the normal 1 1 1 build as I described in this guide, I would've crushed his void ray 3 gate with ease. That game, I was going 1 rax expo into 1 1 1 build. Had I got down 2nd bunker in time and also fixed my 1st bunker without getitng it destroyed, I would've defended it easily. Also the key is not to lose your first viking, which I made a mistake of in this game.
On August 11 2011 04:43 jusksmit wrote: Hey folks!
So I found this guide incredibly helpful, but wanted to condense it into a visual format I could use as a cheatsheet while I'm playing. The result is up on reddit - hopefully a few other people will find it helpful, too!
This is great to see! I can see this will help alot of people getting used to this strat ^^ I'm sure a lot of ppl will appreciate the effort, me included!
Wow alot of effort put into this, looks really nice. Halfway done reading now. Could you put up some 1.3.6 replays so I don't have to log in and out to view each one.
On August 12 2011 05:22 DevanT wrote: Just saw you lose to a void ray rush from incontrol. In a perfect situation, what could you have done there to beat that? like 70% of my TvP losses are from a void ray rush just like that.
If I was going the normal 1 1 1 build as I described in this guide, I would've crushed his void ray 3 gate with ease. That game, I was going 1 rax expo into 1 1 1 build. Had I got down 2nd bunker in time and also fixed my 1st bunker without getitng it destroyed, I would've defended it easily. Also the key is not to lose your first viking, which I made a mistake of in this game.
On August 11 2011 04:43 jusksmit wrote: Hey folks!
So I found this guide incredibly helpful, but wanted to condense it into a visual format I could use as a cheatsheet while I'm playing. The result is up on reddit - hopefully a few other people will find it helpful, too!
This is great to see! I can see this will help alot of people getting used to this strat ^^ I'm sure a lot of ppl will appreciate the effort, me included!
Could you please post more replays about how you play against mass zealots or blink stalkers?
This is great to see! I can see this will help alot of people getting used to this strat ^^ I'm sure a lot of ppl will appreciate the effort, me included!
Hey guys, here i am again with some questions, what can u do against zealot archons based army?, archons are really good tanking tanks and bio damage, should i get ghost a little more faster?, also i guess since there are not collosus yet i shoudl get evameds sooner.
EDIT: so of course against zealots hellions will do, my problem its mainly archons when im pushing while making my third.
On August 21 2011 08:05 Xenogears1 wrote: Hey guys, here i am again with some questions, what can u do against zealot archons based army?, archons are really good tanking tanks and bio damage, should i get ghost a little more faster?, also i guess since there are not collosus yet i shoudl get evameds sooner.
EDIT: so of course against zealots hellions will do, my problem its mainly archons when im pushing while making my third.
yes, ghosts with some money EMPs will slaughter archons. Then with the hellions... :D
On August 12 2011 05:22 DevanT wrote: Just saw you lose to a void ray rush from incontrol. In a perfect situation, what could you have done there to beat that? like 70% of my TvP losses are from a void ray rush just like that.
If I was going the normal 1 1 1 build as I described in this guide, I would've crushed his void ray 3 gate with ease. That game, I was going 1 rax expo into 1 1 1 build. Had I got down 2nd bunker in time and also fixed my 1st bunker without getitng it destroyed, I would've defended it easily. Also the key is not to lose your first viking, which I made a mistake of in this game.
On August 11 2011 04:43 jusksmit wrote: Hey folks!
So I found this guide incredibly helpful, but wanted to condense it into a visual format I could use as a cheatsheet while I'm playing. The result is up on reddit - hopefully a few other people will find it helpful, too!
This is great to see! I can see this will help alot of people getting used to this strat ^^ I'm sure a lot of ppl will appreciate the effort, me included!
just WOW, WOWWWWWWWW. can i take this to my test room lol
Hi, I've registered on these forums SPECIFICALLY to post in this thread and ask this question. I've been lurking in these forums for quite some time and have tried to pick up Warden's TvP strat. However, I recently stumbled across this match between Bratok and Naniwa on Meta at Dreamhack 2011.
In this match, they're on close air spawn. Nani actually goes for a 1 Gate fast expand, and Bratok scouts the fast expand. And he basically followed this guide, dropping his Armory down practically the moment his Fact finishes, and goes for a Thor all in. A difference probably is that Nani happens to poke into Bratok's base the moment the first Thor pops out, so he kind of has some advance warning. However, by the time Bratok reaches Nani's base, he has MORE than enough firepower to deal with the Thor even with the SCVs repairing and ends up GGing.
My question is, what did Bratok do wrongly?! I have completely no idea where he went wrong to end up losing the match.
On August 25 2011 00:20 spvn wrote: Hi, I've registered on these forums SPECIFICALLY to post in this thread and ask this question. I've been lurking in these forums for quite some time and have tried to pick up Warden's TvP strat. However, I recently stumbled across this match between Bratok and Naniwa on Meta at Dreamhack 2011.
In this match, they're on close air spawn. Nani actually goes for a 1 Gate fast expand, and Bratok scouts the fast expand. And he basically followed this guide, dropping his Armory down practically the moment his Fact finishes, and goes for a Thor all in. A difference probably is that Nani happens to poke into Bratok's base the moment the first Thor pops out, so he kind of has some advance warning. However, by the time Bratok reaches Nani's base, he has MORE than enough firepower to deal with the Thor even with the SCVs repairing and ends up GGing.
My question is, what did Bratok do wrongly?! I have completely no idea where he went wrong to end up losing the match.
Hoping someone will explain this to me, thanks.
Bratok waited instead of hitting immediately, If you notice in the game, bratok just stands outside of naniwa's base for a couple of seconds and that bought time for naniwa to warp in units. Also, I don't think he brought enough scvs with him.
On August 25 2011 00:20 spvn wrote: Hi, I've registered on these forums SPECIFICALLY to post in this thread and ask this question. I've been lurking in these forums for quite some time and have tried to pick up Warden's TvP strat. However, I recently stumbled across this match between Bratok and Naniwa on Meta at Dreamhack 2011.
In this match, they're on close air spawn. Nani actually goes for a 1 Gate fast expand, and Bratok scouts the fast expand. And he basically followed this guide, dropping his Armory down practically the moment his Fact finishes, and goes for a Thor all in. A difference probably is that Nani happens to poke into Bratok's base the moment the first Thor pops out, so he kind of has some advance warning. However, by the time Bratok reaches Nani's base, he has MORE than enough firepower to deal with the Thor even with the SCVs repairing and ends up GGing.
My question is, what did Bratok do wrongly?! I have completely no idea where he went wrong to end up losing the match.
Hoping someone will explain this to me, thanks.
Bratok waited instead of hitting immediately, If you notice in the game, bratok just stands outside of naniwa's base for a couple of seconds and that bought time for naniwa to warp in units. Also, I don't think he brought enough scvs with him.
Really? If that's true, then a Thor all-in seems pretty weak if literally a few seconds would make all the difference..
Surprised that no one has mentioned the 1.4.0 patch notes. The nerf to blue flame makes zealot archon even harder to deal with... Are blue hellions still viable now?
They take three hits to kill a probe and are A LOT less scary against zealots. Heard somewhere that the current blue flames are almost even with 2 marines in terms of DPS, does this mean that we should remove the blue hellions altogether after the nerf?
On August 25 2011 00:20 spvn wrote: Hi, I've registered on these forums SPECIFICALLY to post in this thread and ask this question. I've been lurking in these forums for quite some time and have tried to pick up Warden's TvP strat. However, I recently stumbled across this match between Bratok and Naniwa on Meta at Dreamhack 2011.
In this match, they're on close air spawn. Nani actually goes for a 1 Gate fast expand, and Bratok scouts the fast expand. And he basically followed this guide, dropping his Armory down practically the moment his Fact finishes, and goes for a Thor all in. A difference probably is that Nani happens to poke into Bratok's base the moment the first Thor pops out, so he kind of has some advance warning. However, by the time Bratok reaches Nani's base, he has MORE than enough firepower to deal with the Thor even with the SCVs repairing and ends up GGing.
My question is, what did Bratok do wrongly?! I have completely no idea where he went wrong to end up losing the match.
Hoping someone will explain this to me, thanks.
Bratok waited instead of hitting immediately, If you notice in the game, bratok just stands outside of naniwa's base for a couple of seconds and that bought time for naniwa to warp in units. Also, I don't think he brought enough scvs with him.
Really? If that's true, then a Thor all-in seems pretty weak if literally a few seconds would make all the difference..
well people have been saying 1gate FE/nexus first is the best counter to the 1-1-1 all-in (the marine tank banshee ) so it should cover a 1-1-1 thor all-in as well. a 1gate FE's econ kicks in very early so he was probably able to power out enough units to crush 1-1-1
On August 25 2011 00:20 spvn wrote: Hi, I've registered on these forums SPECIFICALLY to post in this thread and ask this question. I've been lurking in these forums for quite some time and have tried to pick up Warden's TvP strat. However, I recently stumbled across this match between Bratok and Naniwa on Meta at Dreamhack 2011.
In this match, they're on close air spawn. Nani actually goes for a 1 Gate fast expand, and Bratok scouts the fast expand. And he basically followed this guide, dropping his Armory down practically the moment his Fact finishes, and goes for a Thor all in. A difference probably is that Nani happens to poke into Bratok's base the moment the first Thor pops out, so he kind of has some advance warning. However, by the time Bratok reaches Nani's base, he has MORE than enough firepower to deal with the Thor even with the SCVs repairing and ends up GGing.
My question is, what did Bratok do wrongly?! I have completely no idea where he went wrong to end up losing the match.
Hoping someone will explain this to me, thanks.
Bratok waited instead of hitting immediately, If you notice in the game, bratok just stands outside of naniwa's base for a couple of seconds and that bought time for naniwa to warp in units. Also, I don't think he brought enough scvs with him.
Really? If that's true, then a Thor all-in seems pretty weak if literally a few seconds would make all the difference..
well people have been saying 1gate FE/nexus first is the best counter to the 1-1-1 all-in (the marine tank banshee ) so it should cover a 1-1-1 thor all-in as well. a 1gate FE's econ kicks in very early so he was probably able to power out enough units to crush 1-1-1
Thanks, that does make sense. However it still seems incredible that a 1gate FE could have enough units to deal with a Thor all-in esp with SCVs repairing. Oh well obviously naniwa has proven otherwise.
Could someone with experience with this build describe the main differences between this build and the "imba" 1/1/1 which the Koreans use? Can these builds transition into each other?
On August 30 2011 13:12 Daniel C wrote: Could someone with experience with this build describe the main differences between this build and the "imba" 1/1/1 which the Koreans use? Can these builds transition into each other?
This build plans to expand and transition into the lategame. A 1/1/1 allin stays on one base and builds a ton of units before a gg push.
On September 01 2011 13:41 Lapso wrote: Im having problems vs 3 gate expand into chargezelot archon + storm style, what do i do vs this warden?
as soon as u are sure there won't be any clossi build only medivacs. So when u push 1t the 15 minutes mark (and about 150 food if there were no bigger engagements) u willl have about 6-8 medivacs.
try to skip the eBay/Armory in favor of a Ghost Academy after adding the 2. Factory and the 2&3 Rax. EMP is able to prevent (or at least reduce) Storms and Archons without shields are just cannonfodder.
Learn how to dodge storms:
1) by spreading ur MM and Hellion ball 2) and quickly moving out ur units if they get caught by a storm
Does anyone know about a guide similar to this for the other match-ups (TvZ TvT). Excellent work Warden. This has helped my TvP match-up tremendously. It's never been so easy to 1A into a protoss army and not lose for a change. =D
On September 10 2011 06:40 Sephiros wrote: Does anyone know about a guide similar to this for the other match-ups (TvZ TvT). Excellent work Warden. This has helped my TvP match-up tremendously. It's never been so easy to 1A into a protoss army and not lose for a change. =D
I'm afraid to say it's going to be difficult to 1-A in TvT most of the time, but maybe some sort of semi-mech or full-mech TvZ is what you're looking for.
I've been using this as my TvP Opener in about all my games. It has been proven to be very safe, and I've been able to defend Void-Gate and DT rushes quite well with them. The Gas and Nexus energy readings have also been invaluable.
However, I've been having trouble dealing with 1GateCore FE's. I have used the Thor-Marine-Banshee all in's versus this quite well a few times to punish Protoss fast expansions.
But the new trend of dealing with Terran 1-1-1 All-Ins seem to be using these fast FE builds itself, and a lot of the times they can mass a lot of Zealot-Immortal when their Obs see me have a fast Armoury down. I usually push with my 2nd Thor and about 12 SCVS and maybe 16 Marines with Medivac or a Banshee for spotting highground. Although the maps that I lost using the Thor rush were a bit longer, and favoured defender's advantage.
I was wondering what do you suggest would be a safer alternative to dealing with 1GateCore FE. For instance should I drop an expansion myself and play a macro game? I usually spot the Nexus dropping quite early since I park my first scouting SCV behind the mineral line. Most of the time Protoss doesn't scout the area well enough with their Stalkers to spot it.
No magic involved...that's gonna be the day when six Zerglings are running through your driveway...and your neighbors gonna hear u shouting: F**K I DIDN'T BLOCK MY CHOKE....
On September 10 2011 06:40 Sephiros wrote: Does anyone know about a guide similar to this for the other match-ups (TvZ TvT). Excellent work Warden. This has helped my TvP match-up tremendously. It's never been so easy to 1A into a protoss army and not lose for a change. =D
You have Doc's guide for TvZ here. I hope it helps
I wouldn't gg just because you get dropped when you're in his base. If nothing else, Terran is the superior base-racing race due to our flying buildings. I'd have to see the replay to be sure, but a lot of the times if you have a bigger army you can just fly your stuff that can fly, pull your scvs, and kill his base. Other times, you can stall and get a bunker up in your base, or defend with your reinforcement units.
On September 11 2011 08:16 Eps wrote: I've been using this as my TvP Opener in about all my games. It has been proven to be very safe, and I've been able to defend Void-Gate and DT rushes quite well with them. The Gas and Nexus energy readings have also been invaluable.
However, I've been having trouble dealing with 1GateCore FE's. I have used the Thor-Marine-Banshee all in's versus this quite well a few times to punish Protoss fast expansions.
But the new trend of dealing with Terran 1-1-1 All-Ins seem to be using these fast FE builds itself, and a lot of the times they can mass a lot of Zealot-Immortal when their Obs see me have a fast Armoury down. I usually push with my 2nd Thor and about 12 SCVS and maybe 16 Marines with Medivac or a Banshee for spotting highground. Although the maps that I lost using the Thor rush were a bit longer, and favoured defender's advantage.
I was wondering what do you suggest would be a safer alternative to dealing with 1GateCore FE. For instance should I drop an expansion myself and play a macro game? I usually spot the Nexus dropping quite early since I park my first scouting SCV behind the mineral line. Most of the time Protoss doesn't scout the area well enough with their Stalkers to spot it.
I would say you don't need to get a starport if you see a 1 gate expand. You should see it with your scv, which will happen before you drop your starport. Time is of the essence. The longer you wait, the more units he will have. Attack with your first thor and whatever marines you have. Bring most of your scvs. Use marines to take down immortal shields asap.
You can play a macro game, but I believe you'll be behind.
Does anyone have any newer replays of this strat on a high-ish level? (high masters or GM) would like to see how it works but Wardens reps are quite old by now
On September 11 2011 08:16 Eps wrote: I've been using this as my TvP Opener in about all my games. It has been proven to be very safe, and I've been able to defend Void-Gate and DT rushes quite well with them. The Gas and Nexus energy readings have also been invaluable.
However, I've been having trouble dealing with 1GateCore FE's. I have used the Thor-Marine-Banshee all in's versus this quite well a few times to punish Protoss fast expansions.
But the new trend of dealing with Terran 1-1-1 All-Ins seem to be using these fast FE builds itself, and a lot of the times they can mass a lot of Zealot-Immortal when their Obs see me have a fast Armoury down. I usually push with my 2nd Thor and about 12 SCVS and maybe 16 Marines with Medivac or a Banshee for spotting highground. Although the maps that I lost using the Thor rush were a bit longer, and favoured defender's advantage.
I was wondering what do you suggest would be a safer alternative to dealing with 1GateCore FE. For instance should I drop an expansion myself and play a macro game? I usually spot the Nexus dropping quite early since I park my first scouting SCV behind the mineral line. Most of the time Protoss doesn't scout the area well enough with their Stalkers to spot it.
I would say you don't need to get a starport if you see a 1 gate expand. You should see it with your scv, which will happen before you drop your starport. Time is of the essence. The longer you wait, the more units he will have. Attack with your first thor and whatever marines you have. Bring most of your scvs. Use marines to take down immortal shields asap.
You can play a macro game, but I believe you'll be behind.
Can a 1 rax 1 fact FE keep up with the gate core FE? It seems that with the immortal buffs, etc, and the longer rush distances on today's maps, perhaps the Thor all-in should be replaced with the delayed starport deathball.
Instead of finding a harder allin vs 1gate expand, could you expand yourself before getting starport? you can cut production for a while and get a pretty quick expand. What's the downside?
On October 27 2011 21:47 dementrio wrote: Instead of finding a harder allin vs 1gate expand, could you expand yourself before getting starport? you can cut production for a while and get a pretty quick expand. What's the downside?
the downside is that you've put yourself behind by making all these production facilities that you then can't afford to utilize until much later.
If you don't like the all-in vs 1 gate FE, but like the rest of the build, I think you could go 1 rax gasless into +1 rax and double gas and end up at the same position with a stronger econ. Would be vulnerable vs a whole slew of cheese though, so have to work out ways to hold (and possibly scout), the various all-ins that you might be scared of.
Oh yea, and I played this guy on ladder and crushed him in a TvT, and he BM'd me and then ignored me promptly, didn't know he had a smurf account by the id REQchbeUBC
all these production facilities are 1 rax and 1 fact. If you delay the starport you need to cut 4 marines (2 cycles) to get your cc. But I can't understand why you never see a fact expand without a starport? maybe you need it to hold some allins?
gasless expand is not really an option, you have no scouting, no map presence, you are essentially forced to a blind timing push and even cut corners to get there :\
I'm revisiting this build with all the "Chargelot/Archon/HT OP vs Bio" thing from the forums. I'm still wondering, if this build has been discovered it's weak or unviable in any way, or if it is still a strong build.
On your stream, you don't do this build anymore :S so now I'm just confused...
Just wanted to throw something in here to make the build more recent:
I've run into 4 Gate Warp Prism a few times with this build. In my experience it usually falls under possibility #6: Double gas, low energy with SCV, Hellion gets denied. The best way to deal with it is just stay on top of your ramp until you get out a Viking to deal with Warp Prisms.
Unfortunately after the WP buff Turrets are no longer a viable option. Because now Prisms can fly directly over a turret and survive even without warp prism speed. Most the time it will be sentries loaded into the Prism to perma FF the ramp, with new warpins being mostly Zealots to kill buildings asap. So you don't need to worry about Stalkers killing your Vikings/Banshees too much.
Because the 4 Gate WP has the same "trigger" as DT, lately I've been responding with Viking-Banshee and banking scan, instead of Viking-Raven. Because the Raven isn't going to do jack vs 4 Gate WP, there won't be any Stalkers to PDD and 1 autoturret is weaker than a single Stalker. But the banked mule will help your economy up while you pull SCVs, and the Banshee is useful vs both DTs (few Stalkers) and the 4 gate warp prism.
On November 22 2011 10:25 deathtrance wrote: I'm revisiting this build with all the "Chargelot/Archon/HT OP vs Bio" thing from the forums. I'm still wondering, if this build has been discovered it's weak or unviable in any way, or if it is still a strong build.
On your stream, you don't do this build anymore :S so now I'm just confused...
may you share your findings on how to handle that composition? as i'm facing this issue as well. this build got owned so hard against that composition
I never understood why Terrans didn't Turtle a bit more and get Ghosts + Tanks, you can defend great with tanks until your ghost count is up and well EMP + Tank shots, what is Toss ever gonna do!?
On paper a couple of tanks, some helions, some ghosts and vikings to deal with colossi seem like something a protoss could never attack into, meaning you can comfortably max out on it off of 3 bases, then slow-push and take a fourth. Does anyone do this?
There is a guide for TvZ. Search for Doc´s somewaht definite guide for TvZ. This guide is comparable to this one, but it´s more standard play related.
I think turteling as terran in TvP isn´t a good idea, because Protoss can easily take a lot of Expandtions and can get a lot of production to outproduce you. Mech and Ghosts aren´t easy to replace and it´s more an allin than a standard build.
On November 28 2011 18:29 Sianos wrote: There is a guide for TvZ. Search for Doc´s somewaht definite guide for TvZ. This guide is comparable to this one, but it´s more standard play related.
I think turteling as terran in TvP isn´t a good idea, because Protoss can easily take a lot of Expandtions and can get a lot of production to outproduce you. Mech and Ghosts aren´t easy to replace and it´s more an allin than a standard build.
Who hasn't heard of the four base Terran all-in? A couple of things: If you are on three mining bases you have about max. mineral income. If you are on 3/4 Bases you can get a lot of production buildings If you lose a Tank Ghost army you don't have to replace it with Tanks and Ghosts. Also I imagine like 4-6 Ghosts, some MMM and maybe 6-8 Tanks, propably less (more like the way your army looks against Zerg + EMP vs Immortal Shield/Storms/Archons Taking a lot of Bases vs Terran is hard to do with all the drops....
On November 28 2011 18:22 rEalGuapo wrote: I never understood why Terrans didn't Turtle a bit more and get Ghosts + Tanks, you can defend great with tanks until your ghost count is up and well EMP + Tank shots, what is Toss ever gonna do!?
Outexpand you, trade armies then instantly remax with 25+ gates and win ?
On November 28 2011 18:22 rEalGuapo wrote: I never understood why Terrans didn't Turtle a bit more and get Ghosts + Tanks, you can defend great with tanks until your ghost count is up and well EMP + Tank shots, what is Toss ever gonna do!?
Outexpand you, trade armies then instantly remax with 25+ gates and win ?
On November 28 2011 18:22 rEalGuapo wrote: I never understood why Terrans didn't Turtle a bit more and get Ghosts + Tanks, you can defend great with tanks until your ghost count is up and well EMP + Tank shots, what is Toss ever gonna do!?
Outexpand you, trade armies then instantly remax with 25+ gates and win ?
THats what I do and I always win vs Protoss
Most modern Standard TvP consists of a tankless force, relying entirely on EMPs for splash damage. People do this in order to be as mobile as possible against the slower-moving protoss splash units. This grants the terran opportunities to get ahead on bases and defend using mobility and drops, somewhat like a zerg player who uses mutalisks or ling runbys does with map control.
Tanks are difficult to use, especially in large numbers, suffer from a number of protoss hard counters, and lack the mobility of a traditional bio force. Warden gets around this in a number of ways, and it's important to understand what he does to make his tanks work
1) Dealing with Chargelots This is the biggest problem for tanks. Chargelots are light, tanky, and quick, and get all up on your bio and other tanks and really make a mess of things. Whatever strength Chargelots may have against bio, it is several times stronger against tanks-- at least bio can kite. Warden deals with them by includes Hellions in his build, which provide the massive anti-light damage needed to prevent zealots from directly engaging the tanks in a meaningfully useful fashion. This cuts a certain amount of bio but is the best solution, basically.
2) Dealing with Immortals Immortals are strong against tanks and hellions. They would be a natural choice against a Terran trying to play full mech. In order to fight these units, Warden includes ghosts, and also Marines and Marauders which aren't so bad. This is where the bio part of the Terran Deathball is valuable. The M+M is also vital for dealing with blink stalkers and i guess stalker drops.
3) Dealing with Collosus and Air The 3rd and least traditional solution Protoss to fight tanks head-on is to make VRs, Carriers, or Colossi. VRs and Carriers are pretty weak against the sort of big bio play that's common in TvP midgame, but against tanks, obviously, they rock. VRs are relatively short-ranged and carriers are slow and expensive, though, so dealing with these isn't too hard-- vikings and bio do the trick. Similarly, although Colossi deal plenty of damage and don't take much splash from tanks, viking production is strong against them as always.
4) Non-compositional factors So, Warden's got a composition that's basically not hard countered by a lot of stuff. Or any stuff, really. It doesn't hard counter many standard protoss compositions, but it is what it is-- a very diverse composition. The real weaknesses are not related to any sort of hard counters by the protoss, but strategic decisions. Warden doesn't get the full benefit of shared upgrades, and has complicated infrastructure needs. His army is immobile and requires a certain amount of balling to be effective. It takes some time to get going. A protoss player could try to expand to his third base aggressively, tech and out-macro the terran in the absence of the heavy stim drops that characterize normal bio play. Warden's not out of tricks yet, though, and has two tools left for map control and pressure despite giving up on bio drops. The banshees and hellions are mobile and although not as strong as stim drops, can harass, assert map control, and make the protoss feel bad about moving out of his base. It's an ultimately stoppable harass but there you have it.
Standard bio play doesn't have to worry about air units, or immobility, or lack of map presence-- it may have problems with chargelots, but not like siege tanks do, and you'll never see a bio player worried about his inability to harass or assert pressure indirectly. You have to compromise a lot of what is Standard in TvP to make Tanks work, and Warden does that admirably-- but understand that just adding tanks can't be done. You have to plan for it. You have to know what you're doing. It's gas-intensive, it splits your upgrades, and it makes you play a certain way.
This guide is so awesome! I managed to win a lot of matches by following these possibilities!
But I'm having some trouble on two things (I'm top silver matching against gold btw):
Mass chargelots (30++) with stalkers and Colossi are so immune to what I did (But I think in that case I forgot the Vikings in the Deathball :p). Anyway, Hellions are the best against them?
The other army that crushed me was a Stalker + HT (20+, seriously). When I started building ghosts it was too late.
On December 07 2011 15:43 Skyling wrote: I think this build might be something that would fit in the the "mech" play style they were talking about on SOTG tonight.
more like biomechsky, not "mech" (you're still building a bio army)
"mech" usually means just Mech (idk if mech also means air too, but w/e).
This would actually classify as the "Artosis build" or get one of everything to counter everything your opponent has. That's its biggest downfall, because a well rounded opposing force will tear it apart.
I tried to make this build work back when the guide was new and my tvp was terrible. I didn't have a whole heck of a lot of success with it. I fell back into the mmm, ghost, and viking, improved mechanics and became decent in tvp. It's possible with my improved mechanics I could do better with this build now but at the time it just didn't feel strong to me. Obviously Warden was a GM terran with a great tvp winrate so I'm guessing it was a problem with me. I guess I'm just saying this build isn't a panacea, your mileage may vary.
As a protoss player, I really don't think P has any heavy counters to this build... :\ EMP nullifies any archon/templar build, viking's great range for colossi, and medivacs for stim abd raven for detection/ PDDs.This will definitely stomp most protoss deathballs. Can anyone correct me if there is any heavy counter for this build? I mean, yes, with good micro HTs will most likely feedback ghosts, but that's very hard and if they cloak, they're an even bigger problem which forces the P player to get observers, then it become the first player to snipe all detection wins if the protoss player goes for mothership :\
lol @ Raine, we all know you are butt-hurt over all those games you got owned in, but please, you do not have to degrade yourself like this in public <3
In other news, I've recently changed my streaming site from twitch to own 3d, come check it out!
On January 09 2012 10:21 Nerdrage293 wrote: As a protoss player, I really don't think P has any heavy counters to this build... :\ EMP nullifies any archon/templar build, viking's great range for colossi, and medivacs for stim abd raven for detection/ PDDs.This will definitely stomp most protoss deathballs. Can anyone correct me if there is any heavy counter for this build? I mean, yes, with good micro HTs will most likely feedback ghosts, but that's very hard and if they cloak, they're an even bigger problem which forces the P player to get observers, then it become the first player to snipe all detection wins if the protoss player goes for mothership :\
What do you mean EMP nullifies any archon/templar build? TvP comes down to whoever has the better control so spread your units out and try to feedback. The issue is obviously that ghosts have really long range but you can mitigate that with some spread as protoss from what I've seen (I'm terran).
In general Terran vs Protoss is always about army composition and upgrades and you have to realize that the Terran player is going to respond to what you have by constantly scanning and attempting to counter your composition. While he does that though you should be taking control of the map and make it hard for him to simply just force an engagement when he wants.
There is no such thing as a hard counter imo in TvP since Protoss can generally make what they want with warpgate and as a result hold off any follow-up attacks relatively cost efficiently,
Also as a protoss you should ALWAYS have observers in your army and spread out across the map. I haven't met a single protoss player that doesn't put observers along various attack paths all over the map.
On January 09 2012 10:21 Nerdrage293 wrote: As a protoss player, I really don't think P has any heavy counters to this build... :\ EMP nullifies any archon/templar build, viking's great range for colossi, and medivacs for stim abd raven for detection/ PDDs.This will definitely stomp most protoss deathballs. Can anyone correct me if there is any heavy counter for this build? I mean, yes, with good micro HTs will most likely feedback ghosts, but that's very hard and if they cloak, they're an even bigger problem which forces the P player to get observers, then it become the first player to snipe all detection wins if the protoss player goes for mothership :\
What do you mean EMP nullifies any archon/templar build? TvP comes down to whoever has the better control so spread your units out and try to feedback. The issue is obviously that ghosts have really long range but you can mitigate that with some spread as protoss from what I've seen (I'm terran).
In general Terran vs Protoss is always about army composition and upgrades and you have to realize that the Terran player is going to respond to what you have by constantly scanning and attempting to counter your composition. While he does that though you should be taking control of the map and make it hard for him to simply just force an engagement when he wants.
There is no such thing as a hard counter imo in TvP since Protoss can generally make what they want with warpgate and as a result hold off any follow-up attacks relatively cost efficiently,
Also as a protoss you should ALWAYS have observers in your army and spread out across the map. I haven't met a single protoss player that doesn't put observers along various attack paths all over the map.
You have a point, I've been watching HerO's stream lately and what you just said made perfect sense. Still, that's something I need to improve on
I just wondered nowadays 1 gate cybercore expand is a 'standard' protoss opening and considered the safest protoss opening in PvT as later expansions are very vulnerable to 1-1-1 pushes. Whereas this guide says 1 gate cybercore is very greedy and you should thor all in-it? i cannot remember the last-time I faced a thor all-in as protoss doing 1 gate expand, have protoss players figured out how to hold it?
i know most protoss (should) cut probes versus 1 base builds and in your replay the guy saw one base but just would not cut probes at all and got too greedy whereas a protoss who cuts probes at 30ish (maybe more is the correct number for 1-1-1's) would hold that
It's probably better to revise the tactic of Thor allinning a 1 Gate FE Protoss. Maps are bigger now so it's a weaker strat, and almost every Protoss goes 1 Gate FE in this mu, so you'll prolly end up Thor allinning every game if you follow this to the letter.
Anyway I think this strategy is still quite viable and could definitely help Terrans who are struggling in TvP right now. Late game I think this is much stronger than MMMGV, but I'd love it if Warden could talk about how the unit composition should be in the late game (3+ bases, say they don't die to the timing push). Should the composition be more mech-heavy or bio-heavy? I prefer lots and lots of tanks because there's nothing more satisfying than sieging up and watching a Protoss death ball dying to a tank volley, but sometimes the Protoss sneaks a Carrier transition (happened like 3x, I lost every time because it turns out Carrier/HT is pretty unstoppable especially if you don't scout it). Should we start adding in BCs late game?
In terms of the 150 food Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Viking/Tank/BFH timing push, yes. I have been doing this build in mid master league on ladder on maps that favor it, except opening with a Reactor Expand into the 1/1/1 tech. Far more economical, but still gets Cloaked Banshees out at a decent timing. They still do damage if your control is good, and at the very least give you map control.
Anyway, I'm finding that it plays out one of three ways.
1. The Protoss takes a quick 3rd or skips Robo or just doesn't have many Stalkers for whatever reason, and loses a lot to the Banshees. The push will roll him hard.
2. The Protoss holds the Banshees with relatively minimal losses, but takes a 3rd too quickly afterwards (without strong enough army/tech) because he has a false sense of security. The push should kill him, but it's not going to be a walkover like in the first scenario.
3. The Protoss responds perfectly and holds the Banshees with relatively minimal losses, but chooses to tech/upgrade before taking a 3rd. This is the correct response, and if he plays it will he can beat your push, but you don't auto-lose if he plays correctly, you're just playing an even game and have to outplay him to win. Take a 3rd and macro up, just don't die to his counter push.
It's not worse than MMMGV in the late game IMO (much much stronger if your upgrades are decent actually), but it's difficult to control. Vikings/Tanks are tough enough to handle, but Ghost EMPs and stimming Bio and throwing down PDDs are all tough to do in the couple of seconds you have before an engagement.
lol bad guide, what is "The protoss player is being very greedy here and deserves to be punished" ? U punished what? it's a stategy, just like your fast expand. May be u think terran is god or something crazy. To me all terran player should be up one league in ladder to make the game balance, so we should make a TvT league(god league so u can punish yourself) uper the GM league. My friend plays terran and go master in season 4, his micro and marco is intsane,40~50 APM all game and a lot of money in bank, event he not know when SCV click to mineral it has no collision (just know when he play starcraft master lol).
On March 20 2012 21:04 Huna wrote: lol bad guide, what is "The protoss player is being very greedy here and deserves to be punished" ? U punished what? it's a stategy, just like your fast expand. May be u think terran is god or something crazy. To me all terran player should be up one league in ladder to make the game balance, so we should make a TvT league(god league so u can punish yourself) uper the GM league. My friend plays terran and go master in season 4, his micro and marco is intsane,40~50 APM all game and a lot of money in bank, event he not know when SCV click to mineral it has no collision (just know when he play starcraft master lol).
On March 20 2012 21:04 Huna wrote: lol bad guide, what is "The protoss player is being very greedy here and deserves to be punished" ? U punished what? it's a stategy, just like your fast expand. May be u think terran is god or something crazy. To me all terran player should be up one league in ladder to make the game balance, so we should make a TvT league(god league so u can punish yourself) uper the GM league. My friend plays terran and go master in season 4, his micro and marco is intsane,40~50 APM all game and a lot of money in bank, event he not know when SCV click to mineral it has no collision (just know when he play starcraft master lol).
On March 20 2012 21:04 Huna wrote: lol bad guide, what is "The protoss player is being very greedy here and deserves to be punished" ? U punished what? it's a stategy, just like your fast expand. May be u think terran is god or something crazy. To me all terran player should be up one league in ladder to make the game balance, so we should make a TvT league(god league so u can punish yourself) uper the GM league. My friend plays terran and go master in season 4, his micro and marco is intsane,40~50 APM all game and a lot of money in bank, event he not know when SCV click to mineral it has no collision (just know when he play starcraft master lol).
On April 10 2012 21:15 Ahelvin wrote: Now that nearly all protoss players are opening 1gate FE, what transition would you recommend that won't be a Thor-allin Warden?
Yes. Please reply to this. I used your build all the time in TvP, but Protoss began reacting like it was a 1-1-1 all-in and threw down a FE. Thor all-in doesn't seem to have the punch it used to.
Just follow up normally. The metagame has shifted so that 1g FE is not that greedy. Have you really been blindly following this guide to the point where you Thor allin against every 1 gate FE? Just proceed as you would against a safe build.
On April 11 2012 02:05 crocodile wrote: Just follow up normally. The metagame has shifted so that 1g FE is not that greedy. Have you really been blindly following this guide to the point where you Thor allin against every 1 gate FE? Just proceed as you would against a safe build.
The reason I am looking into 1/1/1 builds etc is cos late game TvP is hard to defeat tier 3 toss units with tier one marine/marauder. My winrate is below 35% in TvP (and there I would always get a fast expo up). So if I proceed like I normally do, I am prolly gonna lose. Unless I play absolutely fantastic and win all the engagements OR toss guy is like really bad at micro.
I'm an upper level masters terran. I've been failing a lot with the thor all in a few months ago so I stopped using that altogether. If I see one gate one gas then I go 3 rax with 2 tech labs and one with a reactor and hit around 40 food. If I can't finish them, I kill their nexus and keep them from expanding as long as possible as I get my own expansion. If I see two gas with robo then I go for a 3 rax all in with 1 tech lab and one reactor, getting the marauder upgrade and stim to put on pressure. But if I make a micro mistake and lose my army without killing their nexus, the game is pretty much over. Long games suck because your army will get torn apart by storm and colossi.
i'm a mid masters terran. I have been playing tvp with 1rax FE into rine rauders+viking+ghost and I am sick and tired of it. my tvp is probably 40% wins because i like to drag games into 4+ bases. I gave this build a try and i'm loving it! the thor rush on daybreak was too easy of a win. haha
I actually don't like this particular build in this guide, but what I think is INVALUABLE that warden presents is the scouting info for the protoss. No other guide thus far posted on team liquid has been this detailed and informative for scouting
On April 23 2012 02:40 KungFuGhost wrote: How do you adapt this build to deal with archon, chargelot, templar storm armies?
Add ghosts, keep tank, marine, and medivac production up and running. Put the tanks behind cheap buildings like bunkers, kite back with the more mobile part of the army, and EMP the archon/high templar part of the composition. Don't forget to spread your marine ball out so you don't die to storms as easily. And have the tanks focus down the high templars if they're in reach, otherwise kill the zealots, they're more dangerous than the archons. The build's strength is in being able to adapt your composition quickly and efficiently to answer their own composition.