I’ve decided it time that we try to put together a solid guide in finding out how to counter this. It's been discussed since the Beta, and people still start new threads trying to find the solution. Opening any of these threads is truly a shit show. You will quickly realize that there is definitely some good information in there, but more than half of it is random theory-crafting, or more importantly, MISINFORMATION (my main motivation for this thread).
This guide's goal is to centralize good, accurate information in dealing with this all-in.
On July 29 2011 07:47 Spiner wrote: People who are saying "make immortals" are wrong. Immortals suck against marines and banshees. The one unit that their good against (tanks) won't matter because the immortals will die before they can even get in range of the tanks. As a master terran player that does this push a lot, I can say that phoenixes won't work either because there's too many marines covering the tanks/raven/banshees.
The times when I lost were against someone who fast expanded and got out colossus fairly early and delayed the push by meeting my army halfway across the map. The key it seems as a protoss player is not to turtle but force the terran to siege and delay the push until you can get out more gateway units.
On July 29 2011 17:58 Omegastorm wrote: Read this.
On certain map, this push is so so strong ( thats why terrans are using this ) What you can do: 1) Forcefield his ramp and try to delay his push while boosting immortals and gateways 2 )Blink Stalkers with observer.. keep him in his base, he managed to push out? Just base trade. ( theres a specific build order ) 3) Flank his army 4) Cancel Nexus and make only units off 1 base ( 3 gate robo is what i like to do )
On July 29 2011 18:47 Pebbz wrote: Phoenixes as soon as possible. If you hit your earliest timing, your phoenix should be out when his first banshee is out.
On July 30 2011 00:31 eatmybunnies wrote: IMO dont make immortals. You would think it would counter the tanks, but at the amount of marines he has it's going ti be useless. I usually get 3 collosus before this timing hits.
I try to stay in the middle of map the to enage there and force a pdd. Then i run back and warp in more units and try to target the tanks with my collosus. i get around 5-6gates and 1 robo with crono'd collosus (almost all crono's go into collosus) i get 2 obs just incase double cloacked banshee or if he kills my first obs in the middle of the map engagement. i have a spare one in my base. i build mostly lots and stalkers. IF i have extra gas i would build a couple of sentries
Edit: also the colosus rape the marines after you killed his tanks
On July 31 2011 02:31 chaopow wrote: I've done some experimenting with different builds, and I've found that high tempelar with storm will finish in time. I've gotten 6gateways, 6 tempelar each with 1 storm ready, before 10 minutes which is generally when they are at your door step. There are also a handful of zealots, and if with 6gates you can easily mop up any units that still survive the storm.
The unit composition you will be facing generally consists of marines, tanks, banshees and possibly a raven. It is important to consider that there are many variations of this. A raven is a possibility, cloak is a possibility, helions are a possibility, and SCV’s are a possibility. This build is made to be solid against all of these variations.
The 1-1-1 typically opens up with banshee harass in the mineral lines, followed up by a marine / siege tank/ banshee push that sets up outside your natural. It hits as early as 8 minutes and presents a unit composition that is difficult for Protoss to deal with at that point in the game.
The first step in stopping this build is getting as much scouting information as humanely possible.
Common Terran openers (credit to mazqo) - 1rax cc (no gas) - 2rax (1 reactor 1 techlab) - Banshees (2 gas, marines)
Very few Terran players will show you both raxes building when executing a 2 rax, or throw up a factory and 2 gases in the face of your probe. You will have at the very least do two rounds of scouting, and must be as persistent as possible.
Your first round of scouting should mainly be centered on the gas timings of the Terran.
Is the gas done before the barracks? Is there no gas at all? Normal gas timing?
If you see no gas before the marine forces you out, you are facing the 1rax CC. If you see that the gas is starting before the barracks, you will know that tech your opponent is favoring tech. If you see a standard gas timing, then you cannot draw any conclusions.
After your probe is forced out, try to poke at the front / sneak back in for more information after a minute or so. This second round of scouting is CRITICAL. As you poke up the ramp, try to get a glimpse of the marine count. If you see 3-4 marines at this point and they take out your probe instantly, you should be wary of a banshee opening. If you see a marauder / reaper (by luck) you can breathe a sigh of relief, the chances of a 1-1-1 coming just dropped by about 99%. If you see just a single marine at the ramp, you can take a gamble and try to get your Probe inside his base in time to see if there is a factory/ 2nd rax on the way.
If you see any of the following (credit to mazqo): - Reapers - Marauders - Early expansion - No gas
Then chances are that the 1-1-1 is NOT coming. If your scouting probe is denied, or you see a factory, then it is a possibility.
Back at your base, I strongly suggest you open with Stalker-sentry-sentry (stolen from MC). The initial stalker will quickly deal with the scouting SCV, and two sentries are sufficient in holding 2 rax pressure before your WG finishes. (You will need two gases for a smooth build order) Send your initial stalker to any Xel’naga towers to spot for units.
If I am worried about a 1-1-1, I will either do one of these two openers.
1 Gate – FE - Robo Or 1 Gate – Robo – FE***
The idea behind this opening is knowing that you can skimp on units. If you sense the 1-1-1 coming, he will try to deny scouting (possibly a bunker) and will have no effective units (marines, unsieged tanks) to deny your expansion. The only thing that you have to worry about is banshees.
I prefer 1 Gate – Robo – FE. It allows me to get out a slightly faster observer, and in the case of some early aggressive push, I probably won’t have to go through cancelling my Expo. Try both out, and see what you are comfortable with.
Once your robo is up, I like to chrono out TWO observers. This is completely stylistic, and others may prefer just a single observer. Two observers I find is simply safer. On maps/spawns with long distances, your observer may be getting to your opponents base when the banshee is halfway to yours. Also, during the critical engagement where the game will be decided, Terrans with Ravens may snipe your observer and cloaked banshees will end the game. A second observer can be useful.
When your observer gets to his base and sees the 1-1-1, immediately look for cloak to be researching on the tech lab. Remember, there are variations of this build, and you want to be prepared for all of them.
Continue to make workers until the low 30’s, and throw up an additional 3 Gateways. Once your 2nd observer is out, immediately start producing immortals when possible. Your gateway units from this point onwards should be zealots and sentries, and just enough stalkers to shut down the banshee harass.
Ideally, you want to be on 4 producing gates and 1 robo with constant immortal production.
If you aren’t confident vs the 1-1-1, I suggest you save your chronoboost for immortals, and your Warpgates.
*** If you KNOW that 2 rax is coming, then both of these builds are NOT optimal. 1 gate - FE - Robo will straight up die to 2 rax, and 1 gate - Robo - FE will lead to a delayed expansion. I suggest other builds like an aggressive 1 Gate - FE - 2 more gates, or safe 2 Gate Robo.
Overproducing stalkers is one of the most critical mistakes that protoss players make. It may seem unintuitive to engage a marine/banshee/tank force without stalkers, but after many trials and tribulations, I’ve found them to be HUGELY ineffective and even useless. The presence of a raven with PDD and siege tanks will not only get you 0 DPS from the stalkers, but they will melt extremely quickly. Get only as many as you need!
Around the time your 2nd/3rd immortal is in production, you will begin to see the Terran move out. Retreat your stalker and try to shadow the army’s positioning without losing your observer. Continue to warp in zealots/sentries, and position your immortals behind the zealot/sentry force, but in front of your stalkers.
The biggest thing here is the engagement. If things went perfectly, all of these would happen. i) Pop guardian shield
ii) Forcefield Marines to prevent retreat
iii) Engage tanks while unsieged
iv) Focus fire all immortals/stalkers on tanks
v) Warp in stalkers after tanks are cleaned up
vi) Win
Unfortunately, not all of us can do execute this with perfect timing and micro. Instead, many of us will make an utter mess of this engagement, and barely come through. Therefore, let’s focus on what you NEED to do, or you will almost certainly lose.
i) Pop Guardian Shield:
Your zealots need to live as long as possible. Tank splash will hit the marines too.
iv) Focus fire immortals on tanks:
Tanks and Immortals are high-priority targets for both you and your opponent. As such, they will be the first to die in the engagement. Marines / banshees will target down your immortals, so make sure each immortal shot is not wasted. If tanks are left and your immortals are gone, you’re in a bad position.
v) Clean up Banshees with additional Stalker Warp-in
We’ve all had that one warp-in we wish we could have back. You need to deal with the banshees as soon as you can – don’t be dumb and make more zealot/sentry.
THINGS TO NOTE:
--- If you see SCV’s pulled, your forcefields are even more important. Be prepared to cut them off from the ball to deal with them separately (without producing terran-favored forcefields), and forcefield on top of a tank to prevent repair.
--- Do not be afraid to pull your own probes if it means breaking the contain. Yes, your economy will take a dump, but you have Two Nexus’ and you have chronoboost. You are still in a good position.
--- Do not overreact to the banshees. Minimize banshee harass with as few stalkers as possible.
--- If you can execute a flank, and engage in a favorable position where the tanks are relatively unprotected, you can crush this attack very easily. On certain maps (Shattered temple, Xelnaga) , low-ground zealot warp-ins from pylons in your main can be used to backstab tanks if the marines are out of position.
--- If you are very confident in your micro and unit control, many advanced players will attempt to pick off units as the push approaches (forcing multiple siege/unsieges, and buying additional time). This is an advanced tactic that can be highly successful in the hands of a skilled player, but you need to be extremely careful to not lose precious units.
Here is a list of some potential builds that can have success against the 1-1-1.
Key word here is CAN, I do not recommend them as they are not entirely safe.
- Phoenix Opening / forcing early PDD (very risky if hit by two base timing attack and difficult to execute)
Opening Phoenix vs a Terran who opens Banshee is a build order advantage, but does not always play out well. Though they shut down the Raven / Banshee part of the composition, lifting tanks isn't easy with a large number of marines as support. MC used this opening vs Thorzain at MLG, who simply switched to vikings and continued his push for the win. Also, opening Stargate is somewhat risky as well. If you don't do enough damage, you will die to any kind of 2 base timing with MMG.
- Fast colossus (non 1-base)
I've seen this work only in some occasions. In most cases, the combination of banshees + target firing from siege tanks is overwhelming. If you lose your colossus, you will lose the game. You will have very little gateway support. This is a strategy that is quite difficult to pull off. Without thermal lance, there is almost no good way to engage marines with sieged tanks and banshees for support. The beauty of a heavy zealot/sentry/immortal composition is that Tanks aren't particularly good against any of them.
- Blink stalker openings
This can be a dangerous opening vs Terrans who are reliant on marine defense, and allows for mid map engagements to pick off units before they reach your base. However, this is more of an opener that you do without much scouting, and therefore has its own risks. Additionally, an early twilight will delay your Robo, making you very weak to cloaked banshees.
I will be updating this section with critique that I find to be valid and will attempt to answer them to the best of my ability. If you have a question, please feel free to post in the thread, but I also suggest you peruse this section to see if it has been addressed.
On August 03 2011 08:35 sjschmidt93 wrote: I really like the guide, and thank you for it, but here's some criticism--
I dislike that your guide only handles 2 opening builds -- the 1 gate robo and the 1 gate FE into robo. There are a lot of common openers that aren't the two you aren't mentioning such as 15 nex and any of the various 20/22 food expands.
You can't always be sure he isn't 2 raxxing -- even if he shows you it and the techlab on the 1st barracks he can always cancel it and do this push (see Boxer vs. Incontrol). Here you would assume it was a 2 rax and open with a 1 gate expo into 2 more gates or a 3 gate expo. Seeing a reactor on the first barracks could mean this push is coming, as well as a 2 rax, or cloaked banshee... or even reactored hellions.
Also what if it's a big 4-player map and you can't even get into the Terran's base and you can't even get a look at the gas timings? Seeing a second marine tells you he is going for a quick CC or some kind of tech, but if the terran player is any good he's not going to show you that.
If he is going 1 rax CC a robo is going to put you behind and if you go 1 gate expo into a quick robo a 2 rax concuss or 3 rax stim is going to kill you.
Hi thank you for the critique.
In my guide I explain that neither of these builds are optimal against a 2 rax. Instead, I suggest the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates as a stronger build in not only crushing 2 Rax, but putting on pressure afterwards. If they show you a tech lab, you should be suspicious. You should not just assume that you have correct information and return your probe. Per my guide, I mention that it is extremely important to scout multiple times to get as much information as possible.
You should be thinking: Was he actually planning on building that? Am I lucky to see that? Or did he let me see that on purpose? (Playing Boxer of all people.... -_-)
Example: You see the tech lab before the marine forces you out. There is no way to know for sure if its legit now that the marine is out. However, you can do your best to poke at the ramp multiple times to see if there is are any gas units at the ramp at a later time. If he built a tech lab but you see a healthy # of marines on your second poke -- you know that the tech lab was a fake out. (He actually built a tech lab to make more marines?)
If you can't verify if its a 1-1-1 / 2 Rax, I still suggest opening 1 Gate - Robo - FE. Again, its your call to make, you have to play the probabilities based on the information you have.
If you watch Incontrol vs Boxer from MLG Anaheim, its clear that Incontrol was tricked into thinking that he could opt for the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates play when he saw the tech lab. However, its clear that his build could not hold the 1-1-1. That's why, in the situation where you are not sure what is coming, I suggest the 1 Gate - Robo - FE. Incontrol would have been in a much better position if he had opted for this build over the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates build.
Also, on larger maps where scouting is more difficult when you scout a player last, there is definitely some luck involved. However, your criticism is not specific to my guide. This "random" factor of scouting your opponent last and having your probe killed by a marine is a factor you have to take into account when playing the game. Do I suggest that you should still assume a 1-1-1 if your probe dies to the first marine because you scout him last? No.
I simply suggest that you persistently scout with your probe, and poke at the ramp to get as much information as possible. There is nothing you can do about something that is out of your control.
My guide is nowhere near perfect, but I do believe the build I suggest is the most solid in terms of scouting / economy / unit composition in dealing with the 1-1-1.
On August 08 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Very nice guide! Thanks for making
I was a bit confused about seeing all this about the Terran 111 all-in build recently, wondering what it was about, but apparently it just means the marine/raven/banshee/tank all-in and its variations.
I agree with this guide, 1 gate robo and 1 gate expo robo are really good builds, especially since it deals well with these 111 all-ins (and is both economical, flexible, and helps you learn to scout, all good for learning players). SlayerS Cella was giving a protoss some lessons on how to defend against 111 all-ins and he said the 1 gate robo was the best.
Any feedback, better/pro replays would all be very appreciated.
I hope this can be a resource for some of you.
Thanks to EmilA, Alej, mazqo (and others) for providing relevant information.
Pretty solid guide. You hit all the key parts, and I agree with pretty much everything said here. Personally 1 thing I like doing is to hide half my zealots somewhere outside my base, and then flank/sandwich the terran army as it comes into my natural. This is great because it doesn't even require any forcefields (so oftentimes I only get 2 sentries total, 1 guardian shield for each half of my army) so there's less micro involved, plus it's great for avoiding the SCV barrier and easily disposing of tanks.
On August 02 2011 11:00 Anihc wrote: Pretty solid guide. You hit all the key parts, and I agree with pretty much everything said here. Personally 1 thing I like doing is to hide half my zealots somewhere outside my base, and then flank/sandwich the terran army as it comes into my natural. This is great because it doesn't even require any forcefields (so oftentimes I only get 2 sentries total, 1 guardian shield for each half of my army) so there's less micro involved, plus it's great for avoiding the SCV barrier and easily disposing of tanks.
There is a variation on this 1 1 1 allin where the terran hits with 4 banshees, not sure but more than 2, maybe 3. 4th one probably comes in later
Is cleaning up tanks and still just warping in stalkers enough to handle 3 or more banshees? It really stinks when you clear the ground only to lose because terran can destroy your up shooting units faster than you can make them.
Nice work man. I've been following these threads too, and I think you are absolutely right. It's so important to go zeal/immo heavy until the tanks are cleNed up
i am only in gold but anytime a Terren tries to 1-1-1 against me the straight up lose to a 3 gate pressure expand. The pressure early on crushes them completely and i safely get my expo up. I do not know if this is lack of player skill on the terren part as i am still in gold , but i still think it is a very strong build.
If i recall correctly it was used and killed SixJacks Major in a frequent TL open
On August 02 2011 11:04 Medrea wrote: There is a variation on this 1 1 1 allin where the terran hits with 4 banshees, not sure but more than 2, maybe 3. 4th one probably comes in later
Is cleaning up tanks and still just warping in stalkers enough to handle 3 or more banshees? It really stinks when you clear the ground only to lose because terran can destroy your up shooting units faster than you can make them.
Many 1-1-1 typically come with 3 banshees. It's still worth it to take down the tanks quickly. The tanks are the #1 priority in my mind - you cant even deal with the banshees if the tanks are still shelling your expo.
On August 02 2011 11:04 Medrea wrote: There is a variation on this 1 1 1 allin where the terran hits with 4 banshees, not sure but more than 2, maybe 3. 4th one probably comes in later
Is cleaning up tanks and still just warping in stalkers enough to handle 3 or more banshees? It really stinks when you clear the ground only to lose because terran can destroy your up shooting units faster than you can make them.
If you see 4+ banshees, the attack is either coming a bit later (but stronger), or he actually went 2 port banshees. Against 2 port banshees you really need a stargate for phoenix IMO. This is just something you need to scout with your obs. If it's just a delayed attack then I would just start warping in stalkers as soon as the attack comes and you can see that there are 4+ banshees. By the time the battle is over you should be able to warp in another round of stalkers, so those 2 rounds of stalkers should take care of the banshees. Just be extra careful not to lose those stalkers to the terran ground army (consider even just leaving them out of the battle).
On August 02 2011 11:00 Anihc wrote: Pretty solid guide. You hit all the key parts, and I agree with pretty much everything said here. Personally 1 thing I like doing is to hide half my zealots somewhere outside my base, and then flank/sandwich the terran army as it comes into my natural. This is great because it doesn't even require any forcefields (so oftentimes I only get 2 sentries total, 1 guardian shield for each half of my army) so there's less micro involved, plus it's great for avoiding the SCV barrier and easily disposing of tanks.
On August 02 2011 11:06 SkaPunk wrote: Nice work man. I've been following these threads too, and I think you are absolutely right. It's so important to go zeal/immo heavy until the tanks are cleNed up
On August 02 2011 11:10 kl3zero wrote: i am only in gold but anytime a Terren tries to 1-1-1 against me the straight up lose to a 3 gate pressure expand. The pressure early on crushes them completely and i safely get my expo up. I do not know if this is lack of player skill on the terren part as i am still in gold , but i still think it is a very strong build.
If i recall correctly it was used and killed SixJacks Major in a frequent TL open
Yes a 3 gate (or 4 gate) can straight up kill any tech build if it's not scouted and the terran is greedy, having only a bunker with marines at the top of the ramp. However if scouted the terran can react properly by having more scvs ready to repair, a wall, additional bunkers, etc., and then you will be very behind.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you grab all your stalkers and *fight* as he's moving out to your base? This sometimes forces PPD and delays the push by crucial seconds which you will need. As long as you don't lose stalkers, you should be in a better position instead of just waiting for the allin to arrive.
As a terran who is diamond on KR region and who does this build frequently, I can confirm everything QTIP has said is good. The key points are:
1) Terran cannot pressure you early 2) stalkers suck really, really badly against tanks and marines
I would like to make a note though - I will almost always focus fire my tanks onto sentries, and then onto stalkers. Do not assume the terran is going to herp derp 1a and will splash his own marines with tank fire.
I highly recommend harassing the envoy of units across the map if you can spare the apm.
On August 02 2011 12:02 lazydino wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you grab all your stalkers and *fight* as he's moving out to your base? This sometimes forces PPD and delays the push by crucial seconds which you will need. As long as you don't lose stalkers, you should be in a better position instead of just waiting for the allin to arrive.
--- If you are very confident in your micro and unit control, many advanced players will attempt to pick off units as the push approaches (forcing multiple siege/unsieges, and buying additional time). This is an advanced tactic that can be highly successful in the hands of a skilled player, but you need to be extremely careful to not lose precious units.
Very nice guide on terran 1-1-1. Thought it was very clear on how to scout (very important) and good reasons to support why you believe zealot/sentry/immortal is the best way to go.
Question on your opener - you suggest going 1 gate robo FE as an option if you suspect Terran is going 1-1-1. What about 2 gate robo into expand? Is that going to be safe or does the Nexus come too late that your economy hasnt had time to kick in and support 4 gates + robo??
One problem i see with this counter is that you cannot really differentiate from a reactor first 2rax or 1-1-1 in the early game.
All you will see is marines, and the 1 gas. If you go 1gate nexus into robo, and the terran was actually doing a 2rax, you will lose your nexus and probably behind.
Do you think the faster robo is that critical to holding this off? or would 1gate nexus into 3gate before robo be better overall?
edit: reread OP for scouting tips
i don't know if the initial stalker poke will be enough to reveal the marauder for 2rax, most likely you'll just see 5 marines
On August 02 2011 12:02 lazydino wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you grab all your stalkers and *fight* as he's moving out to your base? This sometimes forces PPD and delays the push by crucial seconds which you will need. As long as you don't lose stalkers, you should be in a better position instead of just waiting for the allin to arrive.
--- If you are very confident in your micro and unit control, many advanced players will attempt to pick off units as the push approaches (forcing multiple siege/unsieges, and buying additional time). This is an advanced tactic that can be highly successful in the hands of a skilled player, but you need to be extremely careful to not lose precious units.
Thanks for the clarification, as I've seen HuK do this plenty of times on his stream. You might want to add the tactic into the guide QTIP.
Anyways, I think you probably need more than 30 probes to theoretically deal with this push. This is for 2 reasons. First is that terran can get more income than you off 1 base with 30 scvs + mules than you can off of 2 base with 30 probes. Additionally, the terran's army scales better than yours as it grows. Tank splash gets a lot better, banshees scale better than stalkers, and marines scale better than zealots. Additionally, as the terran army grows, it's less likely that your immortals will be able to target his tanks. Thus, if the terran either somehow scouts you're cutting probes or blindly delays his push, you have no chance to defend.
On August 02 2011 12:02 lazydino wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you grab all your stalkers and *fight* as he's moving out to your base? This sometimes forces PPD and delays the push by crucial seconds which you will need. As long as you don't lose stalkers, you should be in a better position instead of just waiting for the allin to arrive.
--- If you are very confident in your micro and unit control, many advanced players will attempt to pick off units as the push approaches (forcing multiple siege/unsieges, and buying additional time). This is an advanced tactic that can be highly successful in the hands of a skilled player, but you need to be extremely careful to not lose precious units.
Thanks for the clarification, as I've seen HuK do this plenty of times on his stream. You might want to add the tactic into the guide QTIP.
But it is in the guide.... thats where Anihc took it from.
On August 02 2011 12:04 Fission wrote: As a terran who is diamond on KR region and who does this build frequently, I can confirm everything QTIP has said is good. The key points are:
1) Terran cannot pressure you early 2) stalkers suck really, really badly against tanks and marines
I would like to make a note though - I will almost always focus fire my tanks onto sentries, and then onto stalkers. Do not assume the terran is going to herp derp 1a and will splash his own marines with tank fire.
I highly recommend harassing the envoy of units across the map if you can spare the apm.
Good point. Many of the terrans I play do not seem to focus down my sentries, but at higher levels it makes perfect sense to do so.
Really solid guide. I play T, and I gotta agree with you that the biggest mistake P can make vs 1-1-1 is to make too many Stalkers. With 1-1-1 we have access to so many units that shred Stalkers...Marauders, Tanks, Banshees, Ghosts.
How do you respond to Hellions though?
Personally the opening I do the most with 1-1-1 is blueflame drop into Banshees. Because Banshees tend to kill everything that Hellions cant, and I rarely see Stargate because Cloak forces Robo. At a first glance I would think it would be tough to fend off drops with 1 gate Stalker Sentry Sentry 2x Observer. Even if you spot it in advance and save all your probes you'll still probably lose both Sentries.
TheBest has just raped CreatorPrime in Code A Qualifiers, using the 1-1-1 Marine/Tank/Banshee all in build on Xel'Naga Caverns. Creator engaged him in the middle off 3gates and 1 robo (doing 1gate expo followed by robo, then 2 more gateways) with some (~5) stalkers), like 4 chronoboosted Immortals and a bunch of zealots. Wolf claimed that you cannot hold the all in off without colossi. Any opinions on that?
TheBest engaged at roughly 9:40, with 4 tanks, siege mode and 3 banshees.
My opinion is that 3 gates aren't enough (Yes, I just saw that match as well ^^).
I think 3 Immortals and several more Zealots would have been far better, because the tanks had been cleaned up quickly but the marine force was not killable. I also think he had ~6-7 Stalkers so that have been too much of those, imagine double the amount of zealots chipping away on the marines ^^
(Next paragraph is an assumption! As I can't watch the replay to confirm it I just tell what I thought I saw ^^)
I'm also not sure but by flying by it looked like Creator had not enough/badly spreaded workers - only 6-8 at the natural and 16+ in the main so that severely damaged his economy.
I actually hold this push with 6 gates, a maximum of 1 Immortal (I use this to lead the charge if the terran sieges up on my natural) - I do it like this because HuK is doing it like this as well on his stream (Using some Stalkers to prolong the push and get as much warp-ins as possible from his 6 gates).
Workerwise I stay on 2x 16 for the minerals + 2 Gas = 38 Probes.
Good write-up - I don't necessarily like the one gate robo fe since you don't need to start immortal-production that early....but then again I have currently no idea what would be the best way to beat this build and will therefore just shut up.
You make a great point many people miss. If you clean up the marine/tank you, the banshees are no threat.
As Anich said, zealot or zealot/immortal flanks are very strong against this push. Depending on the timing you can have 1-2 immortals with the zealots. If you can flank the tanks with immortals toss should be in great shape. I don't know though, I can say this yet I still died to a similar push today.
On August 02 2011 19:46 Perfi wrote: TheBest has just raped CreatorPrime in Code A Qualifiers, using the 1-1-1 Marine/Tank/Banshee all in build on Xel'Naga Caverns. Creator engaged him in the middle off 3gates and 1 robo (doing 1gate expo followed by robo, then 2 more gateways) with some (~5) stalkers), like 4 chronoboosted Immortals and a bunch of zealots. Wolf claimed that you cannot hold the all in off without colossi. Any opinions on that?
TheBest engaged at roughly 9:40, with 4 tanks, siege mode and 3 banshees.
At 9:40 you can only have 1 colossus. I think I'd rather have immortals and gateway units for that specific timing.
On August 02 2011 19:46 Perfi wrote: TheBest has just raped CreatorPrime in Code A Qualifiers, using the 1-1-1 Marine/Tank/Banshee all in build on Xel'Naga Caverns. Creator engaged him in the middle off 3gates and 1 robo (doing 1gate expo followed by robo, then 2 more gateways) with some (~5) stalkers), like 4 chronoboosted Immortals and a bunch of zealots. Wolf claimed that you cannot hold the all in off without colossi. Any opinions on that?
TheBest engaged at roughly 9:40, with 4 tanks, siege mode and 3 banshees.
At 9:40 you can only have 1 colossus. I think I'd rather have immortals and gateway units for that specific timing.
I know, I wasn't agreeing with Wolf there, just quoting him for those who didn't see the game.
This is a question from the Terran perspective of this build, is it possible to get two barracks instead of a reactor, and have the two barracks by the ramp to disguise the 1-1-1 build? Or would you not have enough minerals to hit the timing window? It seems this build would be more gas heavy then minerals?
The problem i have had with this build is that the exact varration is so unscoutable and therefor i was prepearing for sth. else than he was actually doing. I feel that i'm only really save if i gas steal and then play a 3gate pressure expand as he will most likely go for a 2-3 rax, which feels pretty easy to deal with. (I ofc don't gas steal if he doesnt have a gas yet).
On August 02 2011 20:37 LedFarmer wrote: This is a question from the Terran perspective of this build, is it possible to get two barracks instead of a reactor, and have the two barracks by the ramp to disguise the 1-1-1 build? Or would you not have enough minerals to hit the timing window? It seems this build would be more gas heavy then minerals?
It's gas and mineral heavy because you're going for a timing push. The reactor building gives you time to delay a supply depot a bit. There's really no timing where you can get two early rax unless you delay your other tech by a decent amount because you'll have plenty of gas, but not enough minerals. Delaying like this would be a bad idea because he'll get an observer in there at the same timing anyway, know what's up, and have more time to prepare.
On August 02 2011 20:37 LedFarmer wrote: This is a question from the Terran perspective of this build, is it possible to get two barracks instead of a reactor, and have the two barracks by the ramp to disguise the 1-1-1 build? Or would you not have enough minerals to hit the timing window? It seems this build would be more gas heavy then minerals?
It's gas and mineral heavy because you're going for a timing push. The reactor building gives you time to delay a supply depot a bit. There's really no timing where you can get two early rax unless you delay your other tech by a decent amount because you'll have plenty of gas, but not enough minerals. Delaying like this would be a bad idea because he'll get an observer in there at the same timing anyway, know what's up, and have more time to prepare.
This is a question from the Terran perspective of this build, is it possible to get two barracks instead of a reactor, and have the two barracks by the ramp to disguise the 1-1-1 build? Or would you not have enough minerals to hit the timing window? It seems this build would be more gas heavy then minerals?
Boxer vs. incontrol game 1 at mlg, Boxer let incontrol's probe see a second rax which he proceeded to cancel after his marine popped. I don't know how much it threw off incontrol (who was destroyed) but that is an option.
On August 02 2011 20:18 sleepingdog wrote: Good write-up - I don't necessarily like the one gate robo fe since you don't need to start immortal-production that early....but then again I have currently no idea what would be the best way to beat this build and will therefore just shut up.
I used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty insistent on getting out two observers, so I think it suits me. Also, if I make the wrong read while scouting and hit get by a 2 rax build instead, I will only have to delay my nexus. This is the reason why I think 1 Gate - Robo - FE is a bit safer.
On August 02 2011 15:04 RoboBob wrote: Really solid guide. I play T, and I gotta agree with you that the biggest mistake P can make vs 1-1-1 is to make too many Stalkers. With 1-1-1 we have access to so many units that shred Stalkers...Marauders, Tanks, Banshees, Ghosts.
How do you respond to Hellions though?
Personally the opening I do the most with 1-1-1 is blueflame drop into Banshees. Because Banshees tend to kill everything that Hellions cant, and I rarely see Stargate because Cloak forces Robo. At a first glance I would think it would be tough to fend off drops with 1 gate Stalker Sentry Sentry 2x Observer. Even if you spot it in advance and save all your probes you'll still probably lose both Sentries.
You bring up a good point -- I haven't seen much of the helion play, but I know that it can definitely poke holes in this strategy. I suppose it comes down to crisis management (as most encounters with helions do) in regards to saving your workers, placing good forcefields, and warping in enough stalkers to shut it down.
On August 02 2011 12:08 itsTheSituatioN wrote: One problem i see with this counter is that you cannot really differentiate from a reactor first 2rax or 1-1-1 in the early game.
All you will see is marines, and the 1 gas. If you go 1gate nexus into robo, and the terran was actually doing a 2rax, you will lose your nexus and probably behind.
Do you think the faster robo is that critical to holding this off? or would 1gate nexus into 3gate before robo be better overall?
edit: reread OP for scouting tips
i don't know if the initial stalker poke will be enough to reveal the marauder for 2rax, most likely you'll just see 5 marines
I don't actually recommend the stalker poke at at the ramp if you cannot rule out a 2rax (concussive shell)... I think its much safer to simply have it at a xel'naga watch tower. That's why I prefer the 1 Gate - Robo - FE: you will be on top of your ramp for longer, and you will probably not have to go through cancelling your nexus.
On August 02 2011 12:08 itsTheSituatioN wrote: One problem i see with this counter is that you cannot really differentiate from a reactor first 2rax or 1-1-1 in the early game.
All you will see is marines, and the 1 gas. If you go 1gate nexus into robo, and the terran was actually doing a 2rax, you will lose your nexus and probably behind.
Do you think the faster robo is that critical to holding this off? or would 1gate nexus into 3gate before robo be better overall?
edit: reread OP for scouting tips
i don't know if the initial stalker poke will be enough to reveal the marauder for 2rax, most likely you'll just see 5 marines
When I do this build I continually chrono out stalkers out of my first gateway. If my zealot/stalker poke sees something like 5 marines behind a wall and I back off, I wait for my 2nd stalker and poke again. Terran cannot hold off continuously chrono'ed stalkers unless they get a bunker or have a 2nd rax and must show their marauder to defend.
On August 02 2011 19:46 Perfi wrote: TheBest has just raped CreatorPrime in Code A Qualifiers, using the 1-1-1 Marine/Tank/Banshee all in build on Xel'Naga Caverns. Creator engaged him in the middle off 3gates and 1 robo (doing 1gate expo followed by robo, then 2 more gateways) with some (~5) stalkers), like 4 chronoboosted Immortals and a bunch of zealots. Wolf claimed that you cannot hold the all in off without colossi. Any opinions on that?
TheBest engaged at roughly 9:40, with 4 tanks, siege mode and 3 banshees.
At 9:40 you can only have 1 colossus. I think I'd rather have immortals and gateway units for that specific timing.
I know, I wasn't agreeing with Wolf there, just quoting him for those who didn't see the game.
On August 02 2011 20:18 sleepingdog wrote: Good write-up - I don't necessarily like the one gate robo fe since you don't need to start immortal-production that early....but then again I have currently no idea what would be the best way to beat this build and will therefore just shut up.
I used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty insistent on getting out two observers, so I think it suits me. Also, if I make the wrong read while scouting and hit get by a 2 rax build instead, I won't have to cancel my nexus. This is the reason why I think 1 Gate - Robo - FE is a bit safer.
I don't want to sound offensive at all, but how are an earlier robo and 2 observers supposed to hold a 2 rax? Last time I checked, observers actually did very little DPS to marine/marauder
Normally the 2 rax hits very early, definitely before you can get an immortal out if you produce 2 observers. Also a 2 rax shouldn't reveal itself before the player starts moving out. In fact, I've always been of the opinion that gate/robo FE is rather terrible vs 2 rax aggression - vs 2 rax I want to get my warpgate asap and have 3 gates ready when it finishes to clean up with my triple-stalker-warp + lots of probe-support.
Maybe I just don't get what you mean, could you elaborate in howfar the robo helps you to keep the nexus alive vs 2 rax?
On August 02 2011 20:18 sleepingdog wrote: Good write-up - I don't necessarily like the one gate robo fe since you don't need to start immortal-production that early....but then again I have currently no idea what would be the best way to beat this build and will therefore just shut up.
I used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty insistent on getting out two observers, so I think it suits me. Also, if I make the wrong read while scouting and hit get by a 2 rax build instead, I won't have to cancel my nexus. This is the reason why I think 1 Gate - Robo - FE is a bit safer.
I don't want to sound offensive at all, but how are an earlier robo and 2 observers supposed to hold a 2 rax? Last time I checked, observers actually did very little DPS to marine/marauder
Normally the 2 rax hits very early, definitely before you can get an immortal out if you produce 2 observers. Also a 2 rax shouldn't reveal itself before the player starts moving out. In fact, I've always been of the opinion that gate/robo FE is rather terrible vs 2 rax aggression - vs 2 rax I want to get my warpgate asap and have 3 gates ready when it finishes to clean up with my triple-stalker-warp + lots of probe-support.
Maybe I just don't get what you mean, could you elaborate in howfar the robo helps you to keep the nexus alive vs 2 rax?
I open Stalker - sentry - sentry. 2 sentries is completely capable of holding a 2 Rax until your WG Finishes, and you can definitely kill a good portion of it without any losses if the Terran is dumb enough to come up your ramp. More importantly, you should be able to spot the 2 Rax coming across the map with your stalker at a Xel'naga tower (you can throw up a 2nd gate now), and you'll know that you will have to delay your Nexus a bit. If the Terran loiters at the bottom of your ramp, you do not need a second observer, quickly chrono your first immortal. A single immortal can break any kind of "2 rax contain" or "bunker contain" strategy.
My two observer suggestion is really only if you expect the 1-1-1. You are correct, 2 Rax will crush a 1 Gate - Robo - FE. If I can rule out 1-1-1 through scouting, then I will almost always do an aggressive 1 Gate - Nexus - 2 Gates like yourself. I only suggest the 1 Gate - Robo - FE when you aren't sure of what to expect or you know 1-1-1 is coming.
You bring up a good point though, my guide isn't very clear about this. I added a *** notifying readers that the builds I suggest are not optimal vs 2 rax openers. If a 2 rax can be verified, 1 Gate - Expo - 2 gates or 2 gate Robo are better builds.
On August 02 2011 20:18 sleepingdog wrote: Good write-up - I don't necessarily like the one gate robo fe since you don't need to start immortal-production that early....but then again I have currently no idea what would be the best way to beat this build and will therefore just shut up.
I used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty insistent on getting out two observers, so I think it suits me. Also, if I make the wrong read while scouting and hit get by a 2 rax build instead, I won't have to cancel my nexus. This is the reason why I think 1 Gate - Robo - FE is a bit safer.
I don't want to sound offensive at all, but how are an earlier robo and 2 observers supposed to hold a 2 rax? Last time I checked, observers actually did very little DPS to marine/marauder
Normally the 2 rax hits very early, definitely before you can get an immortal out if you produce 2 observers. Also a 2 rax shouldn't reveal itself before the player starts moving out. In fact, I've always been of the opinion that gate/robo FE is rather terrible vs 2 rax aggression - vs 2 rax I want to get my warpgate asap and have 3 gates ready when it finishes to clean up with my triple-stalker-warp + lots of probe-support.
Maybe I just don't get what you mean, could you elaborate in howfar the robo helps you to keep the nexus alive vs 2 rax?
I open Stalker - sentry - sentry. 2 sentries is completely capable of holding a 2 Rax until your WG Finishes, and you can definitely kill a good portion of it without any losses if the Terran is dumb enough to come up your ramp. More importantly, you should be able to spot the 2 Rax coming across the map with your stalker at a Xel'naga tower (you can throw up a 2nd gate now), and you'll know that you will have to delay your Nexus a bit. If the Terran loiters at the bottom of your ramp, you do not need a second observer, quickly chrono your first immortal. A single immortal can break any kind of "2 rax contain" or "bunker contain" strategy.
My two observer suggestion is really only if you expect the 1-1-1. You are correct, 2 Rax will crush a 1 Gate - Robo - FE, if your Nexus is already up. If I can rule out 1-1-1 through scouting, then I will almost always do an aggressive 3 Gate FE like yourself. I only suggest the 1 Gate - Robo - FE when you aren't sure of what to expect or you know 1-1-1 is coming.
Maybe there was a bit of an understanding, but I wasn't trying to advertise a 3 gate FE but a one gate FE without a robo before nexus.
If the map is suitable for a one gate FE, then I think there's no reason to build the robo before the nexus. I agree with pretty much everything you've said until it comes to the immortal. You can hold/break a 2 rax pressure without any problems if you constantly chrono your warpgate tech and throw down 2 more gates that finish just in time...it's the standard "HuK"-expo that has been discussed for a really long time now. This is exactly why I don't like the robo - the robo is actually a liability, because it's 200/100 (and possibly the observer too) that could be spent in gateway-units + gateways.
On August 02 2011 20:18 sleepingdog wrote: Good write-up - I don't necessarily like the one gate robo fe since you don't need to start immortal-production that early....but then again I have currently no idea what would be the best way to beat this build and will therefore just shut up.
I used to think the same thing, but I'm pretty insistent on getting out two observers, so I think it suits me. Also, if I make the wrong read while scouting and hit get by a 2 rax build instead, I won't have to cancel my nexus. This is the reason why I think 1 Gate - Robo - FE is a bit safer.
I don't want to sound offensive at all, but how are an earlier robo and 2 observers supposed to hold a 2 rax? Last time I checked, observers actually did very little DPS to marine/marauder
Normally the 2 rax hits very early, definitely before you can get an immortal out if you produce 2 observers. Also a 2 rax shouldn't reveal itself before the player starts moving out. In fact, I've always been of the opinion that gate/robo FE is rather terrible vs 2 rax aggression - vs 2 rax I want to get my warpgate asap and have 3 gates ready when it finishes to clean up with my triple-stalker-warp + lots of probe-support.
Maybe I just don't get what you mean, could you elaborate in howfar the robo helps you to keep the nexus alive vs 2 rax?
I open Stalker - sentry - sentry. 2 sentries is completely capable of holding a 2 Rax until your WG Finishes, and you can definitely kill a good portion of it without any losses if the Terran is dumb enough to come up your ramp. More importantly, you should be able to spot the 2 Rax coming across the map with your stalker at a Xel'naga tower (you can throw up a 2nd gate now), and you'll know that you will have to delay your Nexus a bit. If the Terran loiters at the bottom of your ramp, you do not need a second observer, quickly chrono your first immortal. A single immortal can break any kind of "2 rax contain" or "bunker contain" strategy.
My two observer suggestion is really only if you expect the 1-1-1. You are correct, 2 Rax will crush a 1 Gate - Robo - FE, if your Nexus is already up. If I can rule out 1-1-1 through scouting, then I will almost always do an aggressive 3 Gate FE like yourself. I only suggest the 1 Gate - Robo - FE when you aren't sure of what to expect or you know 1-1-1 is coming.
Maybe there was a bit of an understanding, but I wasn't trying to advertise a 3 gate FE but a one gate FE without a robo before nexus.
If the map is suitable for a one gate FE, then I think there's no reason to build the robo before the nexus. I agree with pretty much everything you've said until it comes to the immortal. You can hold/break a 2 rax pressure without any problems if you constantly chrono your warpgate tech and throw down 2 more gates that finish just in time...it's the standard "HuK"-expo that has been discussed for a really long time now. This is exactly why I don't like the robo - the robo is actually a liability, because it's 200/100 (and possibly the observer too) that could be spent in gateway-units + gateways.
Yes there was a bit of misunderstanding. When I said 3 Gate FE, I meant the exact build you were talking about. 1 gate - Nexus - 2 more gates, finish just in time to deal with early MM pressure. I am very familiar with this build, and do it often. It can hold 2 rax, and get very aggressive afterwards. I only suggest the Robo when all the scouting information you have gathered to this point suggests a high probability of a 1-1-1 all-in.
I have gone back and changed the wording of 3 Gate FE into 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates (which is actually what I meant). Sorry for the confusion.
Leaving zealots outside of your base is a common response that I've been getting a lot recently. If it goes according to plan, it rocks. If theyre somehow spotted before you're ready to engage, they die to banshees and you're f******.
I don't know if WP works, I've lost to it once while doing this build, but that is also due to my awful management of the harassment.
Also, an alternative tech path I'm seeing people go: Tech to high templar and try to feedback the banshees. NaViBabyK attempted this vs me just a few hours ago, and it really comes down to who controls their units better (I poke with banshees while avoiding HTs and focus firing them when he engages, shit is not easy though.)
Thanks so much for the guide. I've been really frustrated with the discussion around responding to 1-1-1 all-ins because of all the conflicting (and bad) advice coming from every direction.
Any chance you could put together a guide for responding correctly to the Thor/Raven push that moves out at 11:00? I've had exactly the same issue trying to find a reasonable response to that build on TL.
On August 03 2011 01:29 AmericanUmlaut wrote: Thanks so much for the guide. I've been really frustrated with the discussion around responding to 1-1-1 all-ins because of all the conflicting (and bad) advice coming from every direction.
Any chance you could put together a guide for responding correctly to the Thor/Raven push that moves out at 11:00? I've had exactly the same issue trying to find a reasonable response to that build on TL.
basically you need a lot of zealots. an immortal and stalkers is good, but just concentrate on mass zealot. zealots rip that apart.
On August 03 2011 01:29 AmericanUmlaut wrote: Thanks so much for the guide. I've been really frustrated with the discussion around responding to 1-1-1 all-ins because of all the conflicting (and bad) advice coming from every direction.
Any chance you could put together a guide for responding correctly to the Thor/Raven push that moves out at 11:00? I've had exactly the same issue trying to find a reasonable response to that build on TL.
basically you need a lot of zealots. an immortal and stalkers is good, but just concentrate on mass zealot. zealots rip that apart.
(I should make clear I don't want to derail this conversation by making it into a topic on the Thor/Raven push, but rather indicate that I would be very happy to see such a thread created by Mr. QTIP should he feel so inclined.)
On August 03 2011 01:38 Tigi wrote: Another Question I have: Wouldn't it work if you just try to base trade ?
I don't really want to suggest base trade as an option when trying to put together a solid guide. Why base trade when you can save your expansion, kill his army, and delay his expansion?
Just a quick tip to differentiate a 2 rax and 1-1-1: If your probe scouts a terrans base and sees the one gas, you can run it away, and then when there the first marine pops out, you can run it back in to the base.
If a reactor comes out or an extra marine comes out, it is most likely a 1-1-1, and if you see a second gas that early, its probably 2 port banshee. If there is a tech lab built, it is a 2 rax.
You can also poke up the ramp with your first stalker, and you should see a full wall off, either with 3 supply depots or 2 supply depots and a rax with reactor, and a full bunker behind it with 3ish marines not inside it. This screams 1-1-1, accounting for the fact that you saw him get a gas geyser.
Yeah like others have mentioned your guide should have at least some mention about flanking as it is absolutely critical. Even if they spot your flank they can't really punish it due to the immobility of tanks and lack of concussive shells.
Personally my micro/macro is not up to the level where I can kite their army with stalkers w/ no losses while still effectively macroing up to defend and prevent harass, so I prefer to split my army and flank them while they siege up outside my natural. Another tip is that on many maps you can place pylons in your main where you can warp-in zealots on the low ground that allows for more flanking possibilities.
On August 03 2011 01:57 Skyro wrote: Yeah like others have mentioned your guide should have at least some mention about flanking as it is absolutely critical. Even if they spot your flank they can't really punish it due to the immobility of tanks and lack of concussive shells.
Personally my micro/macro is not up to the level where I can kite their army with stalkers w/ no losses while still effectively macroing up to defend and prevent harass, so I prefer to split my army and flank them while they siege up outside my natural. Another tip is that on many maps you can place pylons in your main where you can warp-in zealots on the low ground that allows for more flanking possibilities.
I agree - my rep on shattered temple has a low ground zealot warp-in to flank the tanks, but I fail to mention it in my guide. Will add under the NOTES section in Engagement.
On August 03 2011 01:29 AmericanUmlaut wrote: Thanks so much for the guide. I've been really frustrated with the discussion around responding to 1-1-1 all-ins because of all the conflicting (and bad) advice coming from every direction.
Any chance you could put together a guide for responding correctly to the Thor/Raven push that moves out at 11:00? I've had exactly the same issue trying to find a reasonable response to that build on TL.
basically you need a lot of zealots. an immortal and stalkers is good, but just concentrate on mass zealot. zealots rip that apart.
(I should make clear I don't want to derail this conversation by making it into a topic on the Thor/Raven push, but rather indicate that I would be very happy to see such a thread created by Mr. QTIP should he feel so inclined.)
I actually haven't seen this Thor / Raven push before. I've seen some gimmicky Thor builds on ladder, but nothing as strong as the 1-1-1. If you have some reps or perhaps a pro game in which this is used, I'd like to take a look.
On August 03 2011 01:38 Tigi wrote: Another Question I have: Wouldn't it work if you just try to base trade ?
I don't see how you'd get to base trade unless you're going blink stalkers. I've ended up in base trades when doing this against bstalkers and it's never really a close game after I lift off. Ends up with me slowpushing towards his remaining proxy pylon/new base and eventually he has to engage with squishystalkers.
On August 03 2011 01:08 EmilA wrote: Leaving zealots outside of your base is a common response that I've been getting a lot recently. If it goes according to plan, it rocks. If theyre somehow spotted before you're ready to engage, they die to banshees and you're f******.
I don't know if WP works, I've lost to it once while doing this build, but that is also due to my awful management of the harassment.
Also, an alternative tech path I'm seeing people go: Tech to high templar and try to feedback the banshees. NaViBabyK attempted this vs me just a few hours ago, and it really comes down to who controls their units better (I poke with banshees while avoiding HTs and focus firing them when he engages, shit is not easy though.)
If you have cloak and he went HT's, he either doesn't have an observer or it will be extremely late. It should be a huge build order advantage for you. Did he have cannons in his minerals lines? Also did he have an observer with his army to see your banshees for feedback? I can't help but think that his build could have been exploited.
On August 02 2011 12:11 4kmonk wrote: Anyways, I think you probably need more than 30 probes to theoretically deal with this push. This is for 2 reasons. First is that terran can get more income than you off 1 base with 30 scvs + mules than you can off of 2 base with 30 probes. Additionally, the terran's army scales better than yours as it grows. Tank splash gets a lot better, banshees scale better than stalkers, and marines scale better than zealots. Additionally, as the terran army grows, it's less likely that your immortals will be able to target his tanks. Thus, if the terran either somehow scouts you're cutting probes or blindly delays his push, you have no chance to defend.
I think that 30-34 probes is sufficient in holding this push at the timings that are most common. (8:30 ~ 10:00). I agree with you that the Terran army will scale better than yours if you are still on Zealot / Sentry / Immortals. However, the tank immortal relationship does not favor the tanks until the tanks reach high numbers (6 and up? not sure). If the push does not come at a typical time and the Terran has blindly delayed his push, I would take my 3rd gas and immediately tech into colossus. Marines will melt your zealots too quickly (even with charge) if the push is considerably delayed. I would maintain a healthy number of immortals (~4) to be able to one shot tanks, and a ton of Zealots to force the marines to scoot and shoot and expose the tanks. Even one colossus will make a huge difference.
If he does something wild like a delayed two-port banshee, with marines and a few tanks sprinkled in, I honestly don't see an answer except for good scouting with your obs and phoenix. Stalkers can't keep up once the banshees reach a high number.
Also, I would not be afraid to throw up a 5th gate and make an additional 5-8 probes. If your economy can support 5 gateways + 1 Robo / colossus, you should be able to hold this attack. The main problem with the 1-1-1 is that it hits before your expansion can really pay off. If he delays his attack long enough, it will be a healthy 2 base protoss with decent saturation against a 1 base Terran. You should be able to hold.
I really like the guide, and thank you for it, but here's some criticism--
I dislike that your guide only handles 2 opening builds -- the 1 gate robo and the 1 gate FE into robo. There are a lot of common openers that aren't the two you aren't mentioning such as 15 nex and any of the various 20/22 food expands.
You can't always be sure he isn't 2 raxxing -- even if he shows you it and the techlab on the 1st barracks he can always cancel it and do this push (see Boxer vs. Incontrol). Here you would assume it was a 2 rax and open with a 1 gate expo into 2 more gates or a 3 gate expo. Seeing a reactor on the first barracks could mean this push is coming, as well as a 2 rax, or cloaked banshee... or even reactored hellions.
Also what if it's a big 4-player map and you can't even get into the Terran's base and you can't even get a look at the gas timings? Seeing a second marine tells you he is going for a quick CC or some kind of tech, but if the terran player is any good he's not going to show you that.
If he is going 1 rax CC a robo is going to put you behind and if you go 1 gate expo into a quick robo a 2 rax concuss or 3 rax stim is going to kill you.
On August 03 2011 08:35 sjschmidt93 wrote: I really like the guide, and thank you for it, but here's some criticism--
I dislike that your guide only handles 2 opening builds -- the 1 gate robo and the 1 gate FE into robo. There are a lot of common openers that aren't the two you aren't mentioning such as 15 nex and any of the various 20/22 food expands.
You can't always be sure he isn't 2 raxxing -- even if he shows you it and the techlab on the 1st barracks he can always cancel it and do this push (see Boxer vs. Incontrol). Here you would assume it was a 2 rax and open with a 1 gate expo into 2 more gates or a 3 gate expo. Seeing a reactor on the first barracks could mean this push is coming, as well as a 2 rax, or cloaked banshee... or even reactored hellions.
Also what if it's a big 4-player map and you can't even get into the Terran's base and you can't even get a look at the gas timings? Seeing a second marine tells you he is going for a quick CC or some kind of tech, but if the terran player is any good he's not going to show you that.
If he is going 1 rax CC a robo is going to put you behind and if you go 1 gate expo into a quick robo a 2 rax concuss or 3 rax stim is going to kill you.
Hi thank you for the critique.
In my guide I explain that neither of these builds are optimal against a 2 rax. Instead, I suggest the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates as a stronger build in not only crushing 2 Rax, but putting on pressure afterwards. If they show you a tech lab, you should be suspicious. You should not just assume that you have correct information and return your probe. Per my guide, I mention that it is extremely important to scout multiple times to get as much information as possible.
You should be thinking: Was he actually planning on building that? Am I lucky to see that? Or did he let me see that on purpose? (Playing Boxer of all people.... -_-)
Example: You see the tech lab before the marine forces you out. There is no way to know for sure if its legit now that the marine is out. However, you can do your best to poke at the ramp multiple times to see if there is are any gas units at the ramp at a later time. If he built a tech lab but you see a healthy # of marines on your second poke -- you know that the tech lab was a fake out. (He actually built a tech lab to make more marines?)
If you can't verify if its a 1-1-1 / 2 Rax, I still suggest opening 1 Gate - Robo - FE. Again, its your call to make, you have to play the probabilities based on the information you have.
If you watch Incontrol vs Boxer from MLG Anaheim, its clear that Incontrol was tricked into thinking that he could opt for the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates play when he saw the tech lab. However, its clear that his build could not hold the 1-1-1. That's why, in the situation where you are not sure what is coming, I suggest the 1 Gate - Robo - FE. Incontrol would have been in a much better position if he had opted for this build over the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates build.
Also, on larger maps where scouting is more difficult when you scout a player last, there is definitely some luck involved. However, your criticism is not specific to my guide. This "random" factor of scouting your opponent last and having your probe killed by a marine is a factor you have to take into account when playing the game. Do I suggest that you should still assume a 1-1-1 if your probe dies to the first marine because you scout him last? No.
I simply suggest that you persistently scout with your probe, and poke at the ramp to get as much information as possible. There is nothing you can do about something that is out of your control.
There are other variations of the 111. Can you go over these scenarios too?
How do you stop bf hellion drops with a few stalkers? What if he went hellion thor instead of tanks?
Also, if I am sure he is going 111, I do an FE phoenix open. If my pheonix scouts a low marine count (eg, armory), I have been able to rush 2 carriers with zealot support and won. Anyone tried that as well?
On August 03 2011 13:23 juw wrote: There are other variations of the 111. Can you go over these scenarios too?
How do you stop bf hellion drops with a few stalkers? What if he went hellion thor instead of tanks?
Also, if I am sure he is going 111, I do an FE phoenix open. If my pheonix scouts a low marine count (eg, armory), I have been able to rush 2 carriers with zealot support and won. Anyone tried that as well?
The crux of this build is seeing what is coming. It's the main reason why you get a faster observer to see what tech terran is giong for. 1x sentry stops bf runby's if you are very quick, and BFH is not going to transition any time soon to 1-1-1 allin.
Hellion thor again is outside the scope of this, and playing safely is still good -> again fast observer is key.
FE phoenix is fine against a 1-1-1. BUT what league are you in, because going for carriers, while you should be able to scout if he is going cloak or not, leaves a ~3 minute timing window for terran to kill you.
Confirming that it is NOT in fact a 2 rax means that it is perfectly safe to go 1gate robo into expo in MOST cases, and this is my goto build when I suspect a teching terran. Leave a probe outside his ramp to attempt to not get tricked and you should be fine.
Can you give some numbers for approximately how many stalkers you will need for a certain # of banshees the Terran has? I find that usually you will have to deal with ~2 banshees harassing while they're preparing the build and maybe around 4 banshees at the actual push
If they go straight banshee (no cloak), no raven - they will have 4 banshees if the build is executed correctly. A banshee is about even with 1 stalker, but not 2. If you keep 2 stalkers in each line you should be safe from noncloak banshee harass, you can also use your sentries to attack.
If they attack with cloak, it will be less banshees, probably 3, same with the raven variant.
A word of caution though - a smart terran who opens with the cloak version of this build will start killing all your sentries if you dont have an obs out yet, this significantly hampers your chances of defending.
TLDR: prob about 2 stalkers per line, maybe a sentry or two, move stalkers around as needed. Don't be suckered into making a ton of stalkers to deal with the harass, you'll lose.
On August 03 2011 10:30 QTIP. wrote: If you watch Incontrol vs Boxer from MLG Anaheim, its clear that Incontrol was tricked into thinking that he could opt for the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates play when he saw the tech lab. However, its clear that his build could not hold the 1-1-1. That's why, in the situation where you are not sure what is coming, I suggest the 1 Gate - Robo - FE. Incontrol would have been in a much better position if he had opted for this build over the 1 gate - Nexus - 2 gates build.
Just on that - I've seen that multiple times already, if your opponent throws down a second rax in your plain sight literally SECONDS before your probe is pushed out or gets killed, then it's (in higher leagues) almost safe to assume that he's going to cancel it.
Nobody in Master and probably nobody in Diamond either is stupid enough, to not a) wait for the probe to leave, or b) build the 2nd rax a little bit more in the back unless he wants you to see the rax.
On August 03 2011 01:54 mixXanber wrote: Just a quick tip to differentiate a 2 rax and 1-1-1: If your probe scouts a terrans base and sees the one gas, you can run it away, and then when there the first marine pops out, you can run it back in to the base.
I find this to be a really good tactic in general. I find that if I leave at ~3:00 and return at ~3:30 (against Ts who don't wall off), a lot of Terrans will assume my probe is gone for good and start their second structure and/or second gas, and since they'll only ever have one marine at that time, you can usually get good scouting information.
Of course, it's 99% sure to cost you your probe, but the intel is well worth it. If you're Terran and want to be super clever, you should park that first Marine at the bottom of your ramp instead of the top to have a better chance of sniping the returning probe before it spots anything.
On August 03 2011 20:38 aznkukuboi wrote: Question, if you gas steal, won't that mean this push comes even later, so you'll have enough units to defend?
I lost to it today, I pulled all my probes back to my base and the ramp was a horrible choke to defend.
Gas steal can be quite good -- I've seen Tester do this quite frequently vs Terrans. By doing so, you get some additional scouting information and you can delay this push. However, if he was simply opting for a 2 Rax opening, or a non-gas-intensive build, your assimilator is a waste. It's your call to make -- do not expect the Terran to avoid the 1-1-1 just because you threw a wrench into his plans. It is still incredibly powerful if it hits anywhere in the 8:30 ~ 10:00 mark.
As for your second point, if the Terran has set up his tanks at the ramp of your main, you have probably already lost the game. Either force mid-map engagements that force multiple siege/unsieges to delay the push, but engage no later than immediately outside your natural. Any better positioning and you will be at a huge disadvantage.
On August 04 2011 03:14 NukemDukem wrote: I Crushed this based off of this guide however he expanded and did a second wave and crushed me
This has happened to me too. Usually it will be the overwhelming number of banshees that come with the second push. Though you can reset the tank count, the banshees will often escape. If banshees get up to 6-7, you need a few phoenix - stalkers don't cut it anymore.
Keep scouting with your obs to see what unit composition is building in his base after the initial attack.
When the second push comes around, if you can soft-contain him for a bit (make him worry about a counter attack / take position outside of his natural) try to get a composition of Chargelots / a few Immortals / a few Phoenix. Even if the banshee count wasn't as high as you expected, your phoenix will be able to lift a couple tanks, which is still very useful. This will easily crush his composition. He will already have less workers than you assuming you did not lose too many probes.
I've seen some games where after crushing the initial attack, the Protoss player stops making immortals. This is a mistake -- after not succeeding a one base attack, a Terran player cannot afford to magically tech switch. Expect more of the same, banshees and tanks.
On August 04 2011 03:14 NukemDukem wrote: I Crushed this based off of this guide however he expanded and did a second wave and crushed me
This has happened to me too. Usually it will be the overwhelming number of banshees that come with the second push. Though you can reset the tank count, the banshees will often escape. If banshees get up to 6-7, you need a few phoenix - stalkers don't cut it anymore.
Keep scouting with your obs to see what unit composition is building in his base after the initial attack.
When the second push comes around, if you can soft-contain him for a bit (make him worry about a counter attack / take position outside of his natural) try to get a composition of Chargelots / a few Immortals / a few Phoenix. Even if the banshee count wasn't as high as you expected, your phoenix will be able to lift a couple tanks, which is still very useful. This will easily crush his composition. He will already have less workers than you assuming you did not lose too many probes.
I've seen some games where after crushing the initial attack, the Protoss player stops making immortals. This is a mistake -- after not succeeding a one base attack, a Terran player cannot afford to magically tech switch. Expect more of the same, banshees and tanks.
Hopefully this helps.
Yeah its helpful thanks
heres a replay of me crushing the initial attack. I know I made some mistakes at the 6minute mark I let my zealot get shot by the bunker and lost my scouting stalker. I only had 1 stalker protecting my main instead of stalker/sentry so I lost many probes. I got my natural up late. I didn't have a stalker at the watch tower I did hide some units for a flank. I didnt use my sentries and used immortals to shoot the tanks (fail masters lol)
I tried a counter but he already had defenses up and lost my army. It feels like terran can easily transition out of this.
Besides the mistakes I mentioned any other advice you can give me?
On August 04 2011 03:14 NukemDukem wrote: I Crushed this based off of this guide however he expanded and did a second wave and crushed me
This has happened to me too. Usually it will be the overwhelming number of banshees that come with the second push. Though you can reset the tank count, the banshees will often escape. If banshees get up to 6-7, you need a few phoenix - stalkers don't cut it anymore.
Keep scouting with your obs to see what unit composition is building in his base after the initial attack.
When the second push comes around, if you can soft-contain him for a bit (make him worry about a counter attack / take position outside of his natural) try to get a composition of Chargelots / a few Immortals / a few Phoenix. Even if the banshee count wasn't as high as you expected, your phoenix will be able to lift a couple tanks, which is still very useful. This will easily crush his composition. He will already have less workers than you assuming you did not lose too many probes.
I've seen some games where after crushing the initial attack, the Protoss player stops making immortals. This is a mistake -- after not succeeding a one base attack, a Terran player cannot afford to magically tech switch. Expect more of the same, banshees and tanks.
Hopefully this helps.
Yeah its helpful thanks
heres a replay of me crushing the initial attack. I know I made some mistakes at the 6minute mark I let my zealot get shot by the bunker and lost my scouting stalker. I only had 1 stalker protecting my main instead of stalker/sentry so I lost many probes. I got my natural up late. I didn't have a stalker at the watch tower I did hide some units for a flank. I didnt use my sentries and used immortals to shoot the tanks (fail masters lol)
I tried a counter but he already had defenses up and lost my army. It feels like terran can easily transition out of this.
Besides the mistakes I mentioned any other advice you can give me?
You need to remember that even if you hold the attack and lose no probes and keep some army. Your economy will be better now but that won't translate into an advantage until later. So countering right away is a terrible idea if you JUST held a really strong one base push. You need to maintain your advantage and take a fast third base with a solid army behind that and go for a timing when they try to get off their second base.
The 1-1-1 all in is basically going to mean the Terran is on one base even when they take their nat because the main will be close to mined out. Taking a fast third makes the game three base toss vs essentially one base Terran and theres almost no way to lose unless you let them take a third base and macro up in that way.
I'm EU gm toss player who has lost all hope defending this build with fast expansion, your guide seemed promising so i tried to master this defense for few days with little to no success...
On August 05 2011 03:33 koalemos wrote: Did you even follow that guide? If you would have played according to the guide, you'd been in a very favorable position if not won it outright.
You made too few zealots and warped in stalkers at the wrong time. Why warp in stalkers when there are still tanks at your natural? You should spend more chrono boost on immortals aswell.
You weren't in GM during season 2 either, you have played 1 game this season and you lost that. Why would you suddenly become a GM level player? This push is very easy to defend with proper decision making.
On August 05 2011 04:09 koalemos wrote: You made too few zealots and warped in stalkers at the wrong time. Why warp in stalkers when there are still tanks at your natural? You should spend more chrono boost on immortals aswell.
You weren't in GM during season 2 either, you have played 1 game this season and you lost that. Why would you suddenly become a GM level player? This push is very easy to defend with proper decision making.
You obviously didn't watch the second replay on Shakuras where i had 21 zealots/4 immortals/4 stalkers against his push and it got wrecked aswell.
In the first engagment u want as many zealots as possible, but after that it's better to warp in stalkers than lone zealots, since stalkers do well against marines and you can snipe a tank with them, they also deal with an additional banshee threat. few zealots just get out microed and killed. If i had used that extra chrono boost on immortal or had a little bit more army, i still don't see myself crushing this as u mentioned.
During last season ladder lock i was on "even" status starting from #40 GM players. The first placement match this season was against aAa.Nerchio (which i lost) who ended up as #1. Once GM league opens i expect myself to be there since i can play solid macro game with top GM players. But yes it's a mistake to label myself as GM before the league is actually out. But that shouldn't be the main discussion. I'm really at a loss here against 1/1/1 builds even though i have tried to figure this out for weeks now...
One question I have is what if the terran denies scouting of the ramp or builds their barracks behind the ramp and uses a supply depot wall in. I play both terran and protoss and I always do supply depot wall in, with barracks in the back. Also if a marine is at the bottom of the ramp there is no way of telling whether it is a 2rax or a 1-1-1 all in. Will you still go blind 1gate 1 robo (which will get destroyed by a 2rax, you had 3 sentries 1 stalker 1 finished gate at 6:45 which is by far not enough, from the first replay on typhon peaks), or what else would you do?
Also, as a masters terran and masters protoss player, this push I feel was not the most optimal. As terran I like to push with 30 marines 16 scvs(of my 27) 2 tanks and 2 cloak banshee (that do harass to mineral line) and be at the opponent natural around 10 minutes with a tank or banshee rallied over. I do a 1/1/1 into 2 more rax and I have not lost a game doing this unless I got 4gated. How does this build fare vs this type of push? There are tons of variations, the one I studied and just described was Bomber vs Hasuobs on Terminus, where I copied exactly what bomber did. I feel that is the most optimal push from a 1/1/1 all in. As a protoss player though, I am unable to hold less optimal pushes from terran players, even though my main race is still protoss.
If you want I can post some replays of me doing the push as well as Bomber's push. I feel that specific push would destroy this build, but quick collosus may fare well against this. However you might only get 1 collosus out in time, and the cloak banshee forces a delay in collosus production as you will need to get an extra observer.
On August 05 2011 04:46 chaopow wrote: One question I have is what if the terran denies scouting of the ramp or builds their barracks behind the ramp and uses a supply depot wall in. I play both terran and protoss and I always do supply depot wall in, with barracks in the back. Also if a marine is at the bottom of the ramp there is no way of telling whether it is a 2rax or a 1-1-1 all in. Will you still go blind 1gate 1 robo (which will get destroyed by a 2rax, you had 3 sentries 1 stalker 1 finished gate at 6:45 which is by far not enough, from the first replay on typhon peaks), or what else would you do?
Also, as a masters terran and masters protoss player, this push I feel was not the most optimal. As terran I like to push with 30 marines 16 scvs(of my 27) 2 tanks and 2 cloak banshee (that do harass to mineral line) and be at the opponent natural around 10 minutes with a tank or banshee rallied over. I do a 1/1/1 into 2 more rax and I have not lost a game doing this unless I got 4gated. How does this build fare vs this type of push? There are tons of variations, the one I studied and just described was Bomber vs Hasuobs on Terminus, where I copied exactly what bomber did. I feel that is the most optimal push from a 1/1/1 all in. As a protoss player though, I am unable to hold less optimal pushes from terran players, even though my main race is still protoss.
If you want I can post some replays of me doing the push as well as Bomber's push. I feel that specific push would destroy this build, but quick collosus may fare well against this. However you might only get 1 collosus out in time, and the cloak banshee forces a delay in collosus production as you will need to get an extra observer.
You can hold off 2 rax pressure with Stalker-sentry-sentry as your three units. 1 Gate Robo is considered that safest build in PvT at the moment. Your initial forcefield will be more than enough time to get out another sentry or Stalker (it should already be in production because you see the 2 rax coming) and your warpgate/s will finish. If the Terran comes up your ramp, they are making a cost-inefficient trade and a Protoss player can easily hold it with decent forcefields. More importantly, if I was doing 1 - Gate - Robo expecting 1-1-1 but I saw a 2 rax coming (with stalker at xelnaga tower), I would immediately throw down a 2nd gate. This would not only allow me to hold the 2 Rax, but potentially take an aggressive stance with an immortal. On maps like Typhon, it is easy to spot a 2 rax coming from a long while away. There are plenty of games where I expect 1-1-1 but get 2 Rax'd instead. It's true that I had just 3 sentries + Stalker at 6:45, but did you check how many forcefields I had? There is no way you are busting my ramp. (On Tal'Darim, 2 gate Robo is a much safer build if you can't get any conclusive scouting information)
I've seen Bomber's push before, but have't experienced that exact build on ladder. Please go ahead and post some replays of you doing it successfully against a 1 gate Robo FE / FE Robo, and let's see if we can find a solution for the Protoss player. If you want to do it against me feel free to message me on B.NET QTIP.630 for a game.
On August 05 2011 04:46 chaopow wrote: One question I have is what if the terran denies scouting of the ramp or builds their barracks behind the ramp and uses a supply depot wall in. I play both terran and protoss and I always do supply depot wall in, with barracks in the back. Also if a marine is at the bottom of the ramp there is no way of telling whether it is a 2rax or a 1-1-1 all in. Will you still go blind 1gate 1 robo (which will get destroyed by a 2rax, you had 3 sentries 1 stalker 1 finished gate at 6:45 which is by far not enough, from the first replay on typhon peaks), or what else would you do?
Also, as a masters terran and masters protoss player, this push I feel was not the most optimal. As terran I like to push with 30 marines 16 scvs(of my 27) 2 tanks and 2 cloak banshee (that do harass to mineral line) and be at the opponent natural around 10 minutes with a tank or banshee rallied over. I do a 1/1/1 into 2 more rax and I have not lost a game doing this unless I got 4gated. How does this build fare vs this type of push? There are tons of variations, the one I studied and just described was Bomber vs Hasuobs on Terminus, where I copied exactly what bomber did. I feel that is the most optimal push from a 1/1/1 all in. As a protoss player though, I am unable to hold less optimal pushes from terran players, even though my main race is still protoss.
If you want I can post some replays of me doing the push as well as Bomber's push. I feel that specific push would destroy this build, but quick collosus may fare well against this. However you might only get 1 collosus out in time, and the cloak banshee forces a delay in collosus production as you will need to get an extra observer.
You can hold off 2 rax pressure with Stalker-sentry-sentry as your three units. 1 Gate Robo is considered that safest build in PvT at the moment. Your initial forcefield will be more than enough time to get out another sentry or Stalker (it should already be in production because you see the 2 rax coming) and your warpgate/s will finish. If the Terran comes up your ramp, they are making a cost-inefficient trade and a Protoss player can easily hold it with decent forcefields. More importantly, if I was doing 1 - Gate - Robo expecting 1-1-1 but I saw a 2 rax coming (with stalker at xelnaga tower), I would immediately throw down a 2nd gate. This would not only allow me to hold the 2 Rax, but potentially take an aggressive stance with an immortal. On maps like Typhon, it is easy to spot a 2 rax coming from a long while away. There are plenty of games where I expect 1-1-1 but get 2 Rax'd instead. It's true that I had just 3 sentries + Stalker at 6:45, but did you check how many forcefields I had? There is no way you are busting my ramp. (On Tal'Darim, 2 gate Robo is a much safer build if you can't get any conclusive scouting information)
I've seen Bomber's push before, but have't experienced that exact build on ladder. Please go ahead and post some replays of you doing it successfully against a 1 gate Robo FE / FE Robo, and let's see if we can find a solution for the Protoss player. If you want to do it against me feel free to message me on B.NET QTIP.630 for a game.
The primary concern is not busting up the ramp, but delaying or canceling your nexus and killing a low ground pylon if you have one. A 2rax hits around 6 minutes, and even if it was delayed to say 6:45, your 4 units (with 2 gateways still in production) might very well force a nexus cancel. There is not enough dps to deal with the harass even if you have several forcefields. As terran I have canceled several 1gate expos, and even some 3gate expos with well timed 2rax pressure.
I will look through my replays to find one that fits a 1gate robo FE or FE robo. I have not labeled my replays but I have every one of my ladder replays saved. Will update this post with a replay if I can find.
The imortals are definately important, i tried mass gateway lots of times having a way higher army count, but it doesnt do nearly as well as the imortals, but i think you can get away with 1gate fe then robo and still have enough imortals out in time. as long as you have like 2 out in time. Flanking is also amazingly important, just proxy a pylon somewhere outside your base, since you should be doing this anyways it works out. Here is a replay of 1g fe holding it
You can't ever rely on your early probe scouting information. Good terrans fake their standard 2-raxes and similar build into looking like 1-1-1 (not showing their tech labs/marauders/reapers etc). Against standard terran FE builds and 2-rax FE build your early robo builds gets crushed. This guide is maybe good for plat-dia-low masters but not above. It's just such a gamble to go early robo FE although some warprism harass might save few games after your expo gets denied.
On August 06 2011 15:43 izgodlee wrote: The imortals are definately important, i tried mass gateway lots of times having a way higher army count, but it doesnt do nearly as well as the imortals, but i think you can get away with 1gate fe then robo and still have enough imortals out in time. as long as you have like 2 out in time. Flanking is also amazingly important, just proxy a pylon somewhere outside your base, since you should be doing this anyways it works out. Here is a replay of 1g fe holding it
I watched your replay. You did well but I can't help thinking if he had made a raven and put down a PDD at that ramp you would have been in trouble. It's better if you can engage further out from your base, no?
On August 06 2011 18:56 vizir wrote: You can't ever rely on your early probe scouting information. Good terrans fake their standard 2-raxes and similar build into looking like 1-1-1 (not showing their tech labs/marauders/reapers etc). Against standard terran FE builds and 2-rax FE build your early robo builds gets crushed. This guide is maybe good for plat-dia-low masters but not above. It's just such a gamble to go early robo FE although some warprism harass might save few games after your expo gets denied.
Problem is, yesterday I've learned what can happen if you try to be safe against 2 rax and do 1 Gate FE -> 2 more Gates -> Robo -> Observer. I scouted a completely standard Gas timing, and later poked up to see he went 1 Marine and then Reactor, and also walled off with a Bunker and 2 Depots. I figured this could still be 2 rax, and since I knew what unit composition I wanted against the Marine/Tank/Banshee push, I decided to be safe and throw down 2 more Gateways before a Robo.
As it turns out, he had just made hellions out of his naked factory, and built 2 ports instead. My observer arrived at his base only to see him move out with maybe 15 Marines, 3 Hellions, 4 banshees and a Raven. As I was mostly building up Zealots, Sentries and Immortals, I managed to clean up his ground army (Hellions doing surprisingly well against what I had though), and then subsequently lost to the Banshees and Raven. I even forced a PDD before he got to my natural, didn't matter at all.
So yeah, at the moment this very much appears to be a coinflip to me. No matter what you do, they can always do something that hard counters your build, and you have no way to scout fast enough without losing your natural to 2 rax. Furthermore, even if you do guess correctly, you still pretty much have to outplay the Terran to hold. And you can't even 4gate him after the Warpgate nerf. :/
On August 02 2011 11:00 Anihc wrote: Pretty solid guide. You hit all the key parts, and I agree with pretty much everything said here. Personally 1 thing I like doing is to hide half my zealots somewhere outside my base, and then flank/sandwich the terran army as it comes into my natural. This is great because it doesn't even require any forcefields (so oftentimes I only get 2 sentries total, 1 guardian shield for each half of my army) so there's less micro involved, plus it's great for avoiding the SCV barrier and easily disposing of tanks.
I've seen someone hide their zealots as well! It's a fantastic strategy. (Above my level right now heh). Excellent video.
I like to in additional make a proxy pylon outside my natural (on shakuras, e.g., on the high ground of my vertical third) so I can warp in reinforcements from behind. A lot of time I just take my whole army and position it outside my natural to catch him from a good angle as he is sieging. Your ramp can be more of a liability than anything else against this, in my experience.
On August 06 2011 15:43 izgodlee wrote: The imortals are definately important, i tried mass gateway lots of times having a way higher army count, but it doesnt do nearly as well as the imortals, but i think you can get away with 1gate fe then robo and still have enough imortals out in time. as long as you have like 2 out in time. Flanking is also amazingly important, just proxy a pylon somewhere outside your base, since you should be doing this anyways it works out. Here is a replay of 1g fe holding it
I watched your replay. You did well but I can't help thinking if he had made a raven and put down a PDD at that ramp you would have been in trouble. It's better if you can engage further out from your base, no?
i dunno i like to engage when hes almost at my nat because the pylon is right there and i get instant reinforcements. might be better mid map, have to test more.
I loved the zealot flank idea, while I'm only a low-level player, I find it makes the 1-1-1 FAR more survivable. Tried it against my practice partner, worked wonders.
I'm wondering, can anyone can give some links to GSL matches where this type of Terran all-in is used?
The impression I get from this thread is that it is such a strong all-in that it should be dominating the pro levels of play (either directly by outright winning games, or by putting P in a bad position, forcing him to guess in the opening and fall behind).
On August 08 2011 08:27 Divergence wrote: I'm wondering, can anyone can give some links to GSL matches where this type of Terran all-in is used?
The impression I get from this thread is that it is such a strong all-in that it should be dominating the pro levels of play (either directly by outright winning games, or by putting P in a bad position, forcing him to guess in the opening and fall behind).
Just watch the first two days (i think) of up&down matches last season, there are tons of TvP which the terran used this all-in.
This may be somewhat map-dependent, but flanking a 1-1-1 attack while simultaneously suiciding all of your probes at the natural into the siege line when engaging the Banshee/Marine/Tank force seems incredibly effective.
I find zealots to be actively terrible units against this. You only want like three to soak up the first tank volley, and then you want stalkers. The problem is that without charge zealots like to stay in a nice tight ball before they get into melee range which means they get utterly annihilated by tanks. They take two tank volleys in that packed ball while running into range and that brings all of them to nearly dead right out. Stalkers are in a ball initially but they then form a concave and then take far less splash damage. The biggest problem with stalkers is PDD but if you want to beat this you have to force him to blow it early then retreat to your natural.
I was a bit confused about seeing all this about the Terran 111 all-in build recently, wondering what it was about, but apparently it just means the marine/raven/banshee/tank all-in and its variations.
I agree with this guide, 1 gate robo and 1 gate expo robo are really good builds, especially since it deals well with these 111 all-ins (and is both economical, flexible, and helps you learn to scout, all good for learning players). SlayerS Cella was giving a protoss some lessons on how to defend against 111 all-ins and he said the 1 gate robo was the best.
When the terran is doing this attack, he gets pretty good vision of your army via banshees right? Do terrans normally scan ahead as they're getting ready to attack?
I ask because some people are suggesting hiding zealots, but a clever terran who notices that you have less zealots than expected might just decide to hunt down your isolated force, in which case i see _very_ little chance for you to win the game. It might make more sense to just hide a pylon out there and warp in the flanking zealots as he moves in for the attack.
Would 100/100 for hallucinate be useful? If you can tank a few tank (heh) shots with hallucinated units, maybe even get him to focus down your 'immortals', that could be pretty huge. Even when he has a raven, his tanks will waste their first shot on the hallucinations if they are the first things to come into range.
On August 08 2011 14:12 Keilah wrote: Would 100/100 for hallucinate be useful? If you can tank a few tank (heh) shots with hallucinated units, maybe even get him to focus down your 'immortals', that could be pretty huge. Even when he has a raven, his tanks will waste their first shot on the hallucinations if they are the first things to come into range.
It's not just the cost of the upgrade, but the sentry energy cost, it's 100 mana (forcefield for reference is 50, guardian shield is 75) And getting any additional sentries seems like a bad idea for the dps you need.
I've been using this at the low masters level and it definetely works quite well. Just don't make more than 4 stalkers and you'll pretty much be ok as long as your micro is even or better than his.
This might be tangential to the discussion (but still concerns 111), but has anyone been throwing in 4 gates to avoid this guessing game? The GMish EU player showed how hard this is to hold even if you predict correctly.
Recently I have been going Nexus first on every map, every position because it's easier to hold a bunker rush on close position shattered Temple than an 1-1-1 on cross position taldarim.
On August 08 2011 18:56 Arch00 wrote: I've been using this at the low masters level and it definetely works quite well. Just don't make more than 4 stalkers and you'll pretty much be ok as long as your micro is even or better than his.
Could you please post some replays? This discussion really needs a good selection of high-level replays of toss holding the push.
What do people think about the variation Marineking showed? It is a marine hellion drop after opening 1/1/1. He used it vs SaSe and after killing a ton of probes, followed up with the deadly 1/1/1 which SaSe couldn't have held.
if i am sure he is going for 1-1-1 he wont have cloak.if he has cloak his push will delay.i personally found fast one phonex and twlight charge zealots destroy this cost effective.after i put down my twilight i put 3 more gates plus phonex crush this easily.then you can go dark templar or what ever you want.the key is to know he is 1-1-1 and no cloak.
On August 09 2011 01:46 Micket wrote: What do people think about the variation Marineking showed? It is a marine hellion drop after opening 1/1/1. He used it vs SaSe and after killing a ton of probes, followed up with the deadly 1/1/1 which SaSe couldn't have held.
All depends on the hellion drop I think, because if your hellion drop gets shut down you basically have a delayed 1/1/1 with less tanks or marines since you chose to invest in hellions. So yes it is viable as long as you get some probe kills, but I don't think its necessary since the 1/1/1 is already so deadly.
On August 08 2011 18:56 Arch00 wrote: I've been using this at the low masters level and it definetely works quite well. Just don't make more than 4 stalkers and you'll pretty much be ok as long as your micro is even or better than his.
Could you please post some replays? This discussion really needs a good selection of high-level replays of toss holding the push.
On August 09 2011 01:46 Micket wrote: What do people think about the variation Marineking showed? It is a marine hellion drop after opening 1/1/1. He used it vs SaSe and after killing a ton of probes, followed up with the deadly 1/1/1 which SaSe couldn't have held.
All depends on the hellion drop I think, because if your hellion drop gets shut down you basically have a delayed 1/1/1 with less tanks or marines since you chose to invest in hellions. So yes it is viable as long as you get some probe kills, but I don't think its necessary since the 1/1/1 is already so deadly.
That build by MKP is basically the next step in the evolution of the 1/1/1. Everyone agrees that Protoss needs a very fast expansion and a fast Robo in order to deal with the all-in. However, this means that you won't have a lot of units at a certain timing, having invested in a Nexus and Robo. That's when MKP attacks the front with a group of Marines while dropping Hellions in the back. It's nasty because it's pretty hard to take no damage from a Hellion drop with just a few Stalkers and Sentries, especially with Marines at your front (forcing you to relocate your probes to the main, making the drop potentially even stronger). And if he keeps the Hellions alive, they do just fine as a core army unit during the main push.
If you do shut down the Hellion drop with minimal losses though, you're in a pretty good spot.
Well, MK's version wouldn't work on ladder for the same reason Boxer's TvZ build wouldn't work on ladder. Most protoss players that I've faced recently seem to go stargate when they expect 1/1/1, and from what they tell me they have decent success with it.
On August 08 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Very nice guide! Thanks for making
I was a bit confused about seeing all this about the Terran 111 all-in build recently, wondering what it was about, but apparently it just means the marine/raven/banshee/tank all-in and its variations.
I agree with this guide, 1 gate robo and 1 gate expo robo are really good builds, especially since it deals well with these 111 all-ins (and is both economical, flexible, and helps you learn to scout, all good for learning players). SlayerS Cella was giving a protoss some lessons on how to defend against 111 all-ins and he said the 1 gate robo was the best.
I'm adding this part about Cella using it to the OP. Given how many Slayers Terrans use this build, it is relevant that Cella promotes the 1 Gate - Robo build as a good counter. Cella must surely be an authority on this topic. Thanks.
Top Master Protoss who face GM / beat gm occasionally here and I have a question / suggestion / discussion about this problem.
So ive faced many 1-1-1's in the past; the problem to me is deciphering which 1base terran all-in is coming..
There are many variations and 2 extreme ones which will hurt you. The obvious standard 1-1-1 marine/tank/banshee but then theres this other one that will kill you if u prepare for the standard 1-1-1; which is the dual starport banshee marine scv all-in.
I've had many games where i probe/stalker poke (incase mauraders concussive so i only lose a probe) and scout rines; then later a bunker. then i Think "ok he's going for a 1-1-1 build". so i prepare with FE/ immortals / 4-5gate / zlot sentrys/ and a few stalkers. I keep poking the ramp nd all i see is bunker(s) nd rines. I send in my obs to his base nd it dies instantly to the raven.
I think im all set ready to win this fight with my good positioning and wait for his marines/tank/raven/banshee/scvs . Nxt thing you know he comes with all banshee's/ravens/rines/and scvs nd then im basically dead, not enough anti-air.
And then another game; same situation happens above. But this time i see he sends 2 hellions out to scout (1 after another) so i think; Ok there must not be an xlab on the factory so he is going dual starport. So i then make a stargate nd prepare for dual starport rine scv all in.
Nxt thing you know i am greeted by the standard marine/tank/raven/banshee/scv all-in and i have made too many stalkers and have to sac my expo but i end up holding the push but i lose the game (lost too many probes and coming back was an uphill battle).
How do you decipher between which all-in is coming? my idea is getting hallucination; but 100/100 cost is very harmful to such a timing attack.
Also ninja'in the observer but most the time good Terrans have their raven sittin by their starport with rines and denys any scouting possible.
Hey, great guide thanks, I just won a game using it ^^
It was on Antiga Shipyard and I opened with HuK's 20 food FE. I scouted him last wich allowed me to loose the probe and see his gas. My second probe saw he was going pure marines and also the reactor on the rax. I assumed 1-1-1 and started a robo, however, i didn't even have gas to start my first obs when the first banshee knocked on my nat mineral line, he lost it due to bad control. His push came much faster than i expected and my first immortal wasnt even done so I had to meet him while he was unsieged but he didn't went for the bait but I forced him to siege at the ramp below my nat nonetheless. When I had 2 immortals I pushed and focus all of his tanks and killed 2 banshee, however he still had 2 bunkers filled with marines and another tank coming. I traded immos for tanks and banshee and after 2-3 trades I was able to break him and he was forced to gg.
Regarding scouting for 2 rax or 111. I think it's quite a good trick to either block the add on with a pylon or build it by the rax so oyu can SEE what add on is he getting, f he is getting no add on, it's likely it's not 2 rax or else a bad 2 rax, which is better.
On August 09 2011 06:32 SpiZe wrote: Hey, great guide thanks, I just won a game using it ^^
It was on Antiga Shipyard and I opened with HuK's 20 food FE. I scouted him last wich allowed me to loose the probe and see his gas. My second probe saw he was going pure marines and also the reactor on the rax. I assumed 1-1-1 and started a robo, however, i didn't even have gas to start my first obs when the first banshee knocked on my nat mineral line, he lost it due to bad control. His push came much faster than i expected and my first immortal wasnt even done so I had to meet him while he was unsieged but he didn't went for the bait but I forced him to siege at the ramp below my nat nonetheless. When I had 2 immortals I pushed and focus all of his tanks and killed 2 banshee, however he still had 2 bunkers filled with marines and another tank coming. I traded immos for tanks and banshee and after 2-3 trades I was able to break him and he was forced to gg.
On August 09 2011 06:45 SeriouR wrote: Regarding scouting for 2 rax or 111. I think it's quite a good trick to either block the add on with a pylon or build it by the rax so oyu can SEE what add on is he getting, f he is getting no add on, it's likely it's not 2 rax or else a bad 2 rax, which is better.
Interesting trick - I haven't experimented with this myself, but it does seem to have some appealing benefits. However, my current build order for 1 gate - Robo - is very tight to ensure safety against a 2 rax so I'm not sure if I can work it in. However, I do see how it can not only give you great scouting info but also be incredibly annoying.
On August 09 2011 06:45 SeriouR wrote: Regarding scouting for 2 rax or 111. I think it's quite a good trick to either block the add on with a pylon or build it by the rax so oyu can SEE what add on is he getting, f he is getting no add on, it's likely it's not 2 rax or else a bad 2 rax, which is better.
Interesting trick - I haven't experimented with this myself, but it does seem to have some appealing benefits. However, my current build order for 1 gate - Robo - is very tight to ensure safety against a 2 rax so I'm not sure if I can work it in. However, I do see how it can not only give you great scouting info but also be incredibly annoying.
Thank you for the guide, it helped me stopping the 1-1-1 a few times but I still can`t execute everything properly. I know where I need to improve though.
Could you please share your initial build order? Thank you once again.
On August 09 2011 02:59 ssregitoss wrote: if i am sure he is going for 1-1-1 he wont have cloak.if he has cloak his push will delay.i personally found fast one phonex and twlight charge zealots destroy this cost effective.after i put down my twilight i put 3 more gates plus phonex crush this easily.then you can go dark templar or what ever you want.the key is to know he is 1-1-1 and no cloak.
Just no. Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. If you don't go robo after seeing only marines in a bunker at the ramp of the terran, you are gambling. From what you are saying you are at most a diamond player because you have no idea what is in the realm of possibility. The goal of this is to get a safe, adaptable response to the terran when this build is executed that will kill it every time.
Used x2 in Code A. I have no problem with them mixing it up. However when they gamble their whole career on a not-so-risky allin, then it's quite ridiculous. The fact that they have more faith in the all-in than their standard play means that one is quite possibly easier to pull off(hint: it's not the standard play)
On August 09 2011 06:45 SeriouR wrote: Regarding scouting for 2 rax or 111. I think it's quite a good trick to either block the add on with a pylon or build it by the rax so oyu can SEE what add on is he getting, f he is getting no add on, it's likely it's not 2 rax or else a bad 2 rax, which is better.
Interesting trick - I haven't experimented with this myself, but it does seem to have some appealing benefits. However, my current build order for 1 gate - Robo - is very tight to ensure safety against a 2 rax so I'm not sure if I can work it in. However, I do see how it can not only give you great scouting info but also be incredibly annoying.
I think Sase was doing this quite a bit at dreamhack. He was also undefeated in his group and had a very convincing PvT style, so I'm curious to see if this is still something he is working with.
In any case, if they are rushing for an add on, you will see them lift the rax with your constructing pylon, otherwise you will see a second marine building, in which case you can just cancel the pylon. Depending on where they built the first rax, you can also let the pylon finish and sometimes see a second gas/ factory/ second barracks/ CC (especially on maps with small bases, like xelnaga caverns).
How do people feel about gas stealing vs. Terrans? Do you guys feel like a strong MMM push is harder to hold than a 1-1-1? (This is, of course, after seeing him do something that would lead you to believe he is teching. Some examples might be 1 gas before barracks and such).
On August 09 2011 06:14 CuHz wrote: Top Master Protoss who face GM / beat gm occasionally here and I have a question / suggestion / discussion about this problem.
So ive faced many 1-1-1's in the past; the problem to me is deciphering which 1base terran all-in is coming..
There are many variations and 2 extreme ones which will hurt you. The obvious standard 1-1-1 marine/tank/banshee but then theres this other one that will kill you if u prepare for the standard 1-1-1; which is the dual starport banshee marine scv all-in.
I've had many games where i probe/stalker poke (incase mauraders concussive so i only lose a probe) and scout rines; then later a bunker. then i Think "ok he's going for a 1-1-1 build". so i prepare with FE/ immortals / 4-5gate / zlot sentrys/ and a few stalkers. I keep poking the ramp nd all i see is bunker(s) nd rines. I send in my obs to his base nd it dies instantly to the raven.
I think im all set ready to win this fight with my good positioning and wait for his marines/tank/raven/banshee/scvs . Nxt thing you know he comes with all banshee's/ravens/rines/and scvs nd then im basically dead, not enough anti-air.
And then another game; same situation happens above. But this time i see he sends 2 hellions out to scout (1 after another) so i think; Ok there must not be an xlab on the factory so he is going dual starport. So i then make a stargate nd prepare for dual starport rine scv all in.
Nxt thing you know i am greeted by the standard marine/tank/raven/banshee/scv all-in and i have made too many stalkers and have to sac my expo but i end up holding the push but i lose the game (lost too many probes and coming back was an uphill battle).
How do you decipher between which all-in is coming? my idea is getting hallucination; but 100/100 cost is very harmful to such a timing attack.
Also ninja'in the observer but most the time good Terrans have their raven sittin by their starport with rines and denys any scouting possible.
Any ideas?
In that dual starport game, did he hide the second starport somewhere? I don't know you would be able to see that unless you get lucky with your obs movement manage to insert it deep into the terran base.
I've started using a single banshee while expanding followed by a Blue Flame hellion drop. From here I build Marauder, Ghost, Hellion, Viking/Banshee army composition. The timing comes around 12 minutes, and it is far more devastating than the banshee tank marine build. It actually hard counters this strategy too, so be careful.
Incontrol just said on inside the game that a 3 gate robo makes a 1-1-1 all in look silly. He says that it is purely a metagame thing to punish 1 gate expanders. I disagree with him but what does everyone else think?
On August 10 2011 09:43 Micket wrote: Incontrol just said on inside the game that a 3 gate robo makes a 1-1-1 all in look silly. He says that it is purely a metagame thing to punish 1 gate expanders. I disagree with him but what does everyone else think?
I don't see any reason why this build should stop 1 gate expanders. 3gate robo is a horrible over-reaction to this build, in my opinion anyway. Huk has shown countless times that this can be defended with gateway/immortals after a 1gate expo (and, indeed, this is how I defend it on the ladder as well).
yes! i do this too, the attack comes very late so you can cut a bunch of corners very early robotics, very early expo, more chrono on probes and robotics, but i like to get a robotics bay 2 colossus maybe more depending on when he is attacking and a handful of zelots is more than enough you want some stalkers but that is what the terran is trying to lure you to make a lot stalkers! dont make a lot of stalkers! just make x2+2 of the number of banshees and micro them.
maruader is a huge tell. if there is no marauder, there has to be a bunker or a massive amount of marines, which is also a huge tell. Some terrans will make a marauder sometimes, to confuse a protoss, then quickly switch to cloak banshee.
I guess based on Tassadar's games in Code A tonight, we can see that if the terran pulls scvs as well, and is able to block your zealots, the marines and tanks will definitely eat your ground army. Some sort of flanking is needed..
On August 10 2011 09:43 Micket wrote: Incontrol just said on inside the game that a 3 gate robo makes a 1-1-1 all in look silly. He says that it is purely a metagame thing to punish 1 gate expanders. I disagree with him but what does everyone else think?
If the only way to beat a 111 all-in is a build that is at a disadvantage against anything else but a 111 all-in (even being behind against a 111 expand) then this would be nothing but proof that this build is imbalanced.
Defensive economical builds are supposed to beat rush builds, that's how RTS have worked for the last 10 years. Rush builds are supposed to beat greedy openings that cut many corners that would get them ahead against conservative macro-openers. In SC2 this would be stuff like early colossus-tech with zero gateway-units, early third, etc.
Basicly, I don't really care if 3 gate robo beats 111 as it is nowadays widely regarded as a weak opening into a standard macro-game. And if terran goes for rax-expand or even the MVP 2-2-2 you are screwed because he can just put up defenses at home and lol at your one base play.
On August 11 2011 17:34 darkcloud8282 wrote: I guess based on Tassadar's games in Code A tonight, we can see that if the terran pulls scvs as well, and is able to block your zealots, the marines and tanks will definitely eat your ground army. Some sort of flanking is needed..
Flanking works very well on my level (highish diamond), whenever Im able to scout it and get my army in to position.
You catch them in the open, tanks unsieged, and with lots of zealots + some good FFs you can usually cripple the push if not outright beat it.
But Im sure its harder to do against a better executed 1/1/1 than what I face on ladder.
Edit: I guess getting a good flank off kinda relies on the opponent to be unaware... It also depends a lot on the map. Crossfire is hell lol
On August 11 2011 17:34 darkcloud8282 wrote: I guess based on Tassadar's games in Code A tonight, we can see that if the terran pulls scvs as well, and is able to block your zealots, the marines and tanks will definitely eat your ground army. Some sort of flanking is needed..
Flanking works very well on my level (highish diamond), whenever Im able to scout it and get my army in to position.
You catch them in the open, tanks unsieged, and with lots of zealots + some good FFs you can usually cripple the push if not outright beat it.
But Im sure its harder to do against a better executed 1/1/1 than what I face on ladder.
Edit: I guess getting a good flank off kinda relies on the opponent to be unaware... It also depends a lot on the map. Crossfire is hell lol
I just think it's really risky to attempt a flank when banshees are flying around, which seems to only work if you went a stargate opening to deny their vision
On August 10 2011 09:43 Micket wrote: Incontrol just said on inside the game that a 3 gate robo makes a 1-1-1 all in look silly. He says that it is purely a metagame thing to punish 1 gate expanders. I disagree with him but what does everyone else think?
I don't see any reason why this build should stop 1 gate expanders. 3gate robo is a horrible over-reaction to this build, in my opinion anyway. Huk has shown countless times that this can be defended with gateway/immortals after a 1gate expo (and, indeed, this is how I defend it on the ladder as well).
Yes, he showed that greatly at MLG when he got slaughtered by Boxer's badly executed 1-1-1. Unless he means Nexus first into 3 Gate Robo into 7 Gates, in which case I would agree with him.
On August 10 2011 09:43 Micket wrote: Incontrol just said on inside the game that a 3 gate robo makes a 1-1-1 all in look silly. He says that it is purely a metagame thing to punish 1 gate expanders. I disagree with him but what does everyone else think?
If the only way to beat a 111 all-in is a build that is at a disadvantage against anything else but a 111 all-in (even being behind against a 111 expand) then this would be nothing but proof that this build is imbalanced.
Defensive economical builds are supposed to beat rush builds, that's how RTS have worked for the last 10 years. Rush builds are supposed to beat greedy openings that cut many corners that would get them ahead against conservative macro-openers. In SC2 this would be stuff like early colossus-tech with zero gateway-units, early third, etc.
Basicly, I don't really care if 3 gate robo beats 111 as it is nowadays widely regarded as a weak opening into a standard macro-game. And if terran goes for rax-expand or even the MVP 2-2-2 you are screwed because he can just put up defenses at home and lol at your one base play.
On August 10 2011 09:43 Micket wrote: Incontrol just said on inside the game that a 3 gate robo makes a 1-1-1 all in look silly. He says that it is purely a metagame thing to punish 1 gate expanders. I disagree with him but what does everyone else think?
If the only way to beat a 111 all-in is a build that is at a disadvantage against anything else but a 111 all-in (even being behind against a 111 expand) then this would be nothing but proof that this build is imbalanced.
Defensive economical builds are supposed to beat rush builds, that's how RTS have worked for the last 10 years. Rush builds are supposed to beat greedy openings that cut many corners that would get them ahead against conservative macro-openers. In SC2 this would be stuff like early colossus-tech with zero gateway-units, early third, etc.
Basicly, I don't really care if 3 gate robo beats 111 as it is nowadays widely regarded as a weak opening into a standard macro-game. And if terran goes for rax-expand or even the MVP 2-2-2 you are screwed because he can just put up defenses at home and lol at your one base play.
Agreed. I think Incontrol is silly :D
I have to back up sleepingdog + Anihc here.
"If the only way to beat a 111 all-in is a build that is at a disadvantage against anything else but a 111 all-in (even being behind against a 111 expand) then this would be nothing but proof that this build is imbalanced."
Replay of me beating 1/1/1 after a 1GFE. His banshees weren't with his army though, but I still think that I would have been able to defend (warp in stalkers when battle is over).
Replay of me beating 1/1/1 after a 1GFE. His banshees weren't with his army though, but I still think that I would have been able to defend (warp in stalkers when battle is over).
I watched the game and the terran executed the attack really poorly. His tanks did not siege up in the entire fight, and his banshees were hitting your nexus instead of participating in the fight..
What do people think about gas stealing in PvT? I find it really negates the possibility of a 1-1-1 all-in, however it obviously requires you to get the probe into his base (hard on 4p maps), and weakens your defense of any 2-rax pressure. But honestly, I much rather prefer dealing with a lot of marines and rauders with 1 less zealot rather than this 1-1-1 push which I lose to 4/5 times.
Gas steal is pretty pointless IMO. I mentioned it before that a lot of the current meta revolves around delaying the second gas until the marine is out and clearing his base. The only reaction gas steal should trigger is "ok, ill get more marines sooner(to kill this), and get my factory a bit earlier, I'll have maybe two fewer marines in the end in delaying the reactor".
a new build just came about in korea specifically designed to counter 1-1-1. Here are some replays of korean protoss player using that build. I hear this guy is 5th in Grand Master in Korea and is Zenex player.
I know most of you guys dont read korean but he doesnt really explain it neither. Just offered his replays.
how to download:
click '원원원.sc2replays' and other ***.sc2replays at top part of your screen.
I'm not a competitive player nor a protoss player. I did not watch the replays myself yet but from the comments it looks legit and a real easy build against 1-1-1.
On August 12 2011 13:06 Govou wrote: a new build just came about in korea specifically designed to counter 1-1-1. Here are some replays of korean protoss player using that build. I hear this guy is 5th in Grand Master in Korea and is Zenex player.
I know most of you guys dont read korean but he doesnt really explain it neither. Just offered his replays.
how to download:
click '원원원.sc2replays' and other ***.sc2replays at top part of your screen.
I'm not a competitive player nor a protoss player. I did not watch the replays myself yet but from the comments it looks legit and a real easy build against 1-1-1.
it was just a one base collosus build, which isnt really that optimal, as if he scouts no expansion, the T should just expand himself.
On August 12 2011 13:06 Govou wrote: a new build just came about in korea specifically designed to counter 1-1-1. Here are some replays of korean protoss player using that build. I hear this guy is 5th in Grand Master in Korea and is Zenex player.
I know most of you guys dont read korean but he doesnt really explain it neither. Just offered his replays.
how to download:
click '원원원.sc2replays' and other ***.sc2replays at top part of your screen.
I'm not a competitive player nor a protoss player. I did not watch the replays myself yet but from the comments it looks legit and a real easy build against 1-1-1.
Most of the people talking about the build says this build only should really be done if its close positions and fast expanding is far too risky. Otherwise most are still saying fast expanding and going 5/6 gate + robo is the best way to defend 1/1/1.
Yowza! Who saw Puzzle hold the the 1-1-1 banshee all in with a robo, stargate, and an expansion? It was effin CRAZY! Any high level players want to comment on it?
On August 12 2011 19:59 ins(out)side wrote: Yowza! Who saw Puzzle hold the the 1-1-1 banshee all in with a robo, stargate, and an expansion? It was effin CRAZY! Any high level players want to comment on it?
not a high level player but siege mode wasnt even finished and he sniped 2 banshees before the terran even moved out? it was more of asdfou messing up on the all in rather than puzzle doing amazing holding it off.
Gave two banshees away for free, absolutely zero damage and it was still really close with perfect force fields. I think artosis hit the nail on the head, this is a build that beats a poorly executed 1/1/1.
I think protoss lost 1 phoenix and maybe 1 zealot for 3 banshees and a tank before the big engagement even happened lol.
hello, mid-high NA masters here. I been holding off 1-1-1 all-ins on the korean(diamond) ladder with 1 or 2 gate 1 robo opening into 3 gate 1 robo 1 stargate play if i scout the all-in. I had a lot of success with this build, the difference from my build & puzzle's(gstl 8/12) is that I don't get any stalkers i depend on my phoenix to kill any banshee's. Doing that I have a stronger anti-ground army to crush the push. This build is a little micro intensive with the phoenix, force-fields, & target firing immortals (if tanks aren't lifted by phoenix).
On August 12 2011 21:09 chauder wrote: hello, mid-high NA masters here. I been holding off 1-1-1 all-ins on the korean(diamond) ladder with 1 or 2 gate 1 robo opening into 3 gate 1 robo 1 stargate play if i scout the all-in. I had a lot of success with this build, the difference from my build & puzzle's(gstl 8/12) is that I don't get any stalkers i depend on my phoenix to kill any banshee's. Doing that I have a stronger anti-ground army to crush the push. This build is a little micro intensive with the phoenix, force-fields, & target firing immortals (if tanks aren't lifted by phoenix).
On August 12 2011 22:53 Anihc wrote: It's been discussed before, 1 base play is not the way to go against this because what if the terran decides not to attack and just expand instead?
Surely that's not an issue unless the Terran can establish a contain, and presumably any viable 1-base build would be designed to prevent/break that.
On August 12 2011 22:53 Anihc wrote: It's been discussed before, 1 base play is not the way to go against this because what if the terran decides not to attack and just expand instead?
Surely that's not an issue unless the Terran can establish a contain, and presumably any viable 1-base build would be designed to prevent/break that.
I still think it's an issue. The terran can decide to expand instead of attacking and start his expansion way before yours. It's difficult to scout because he can build it in base and deny obs scouting with raven. Then you will be behind in both econ and tech, and protoss armies without tech (i.e. colossus or ht) scale horribly with terran armies.
God damn I am getting fucked hard by this every single vT game on the ladder. Haven't seen a second command center in a few weeks. Still losing ~75% of my games to it but maybe it's just the execution.
Should I make a thread + replay or is that not OK since there is already a discussion about it here and people probably can't tell me anything new?
How do you deal with repairing wall of scvs that are placed in front of his army? Try to flank even harder? Also he doesn't even siege so SCVS take no splash.
If you see 3-4 marines at this point and they take out your probe instantly, you should be wary of a banshee opening
Or it could be 1rax reactor expand, or 2 rax.
If you see a marauder / reaper (by luck) you can breathe a sigh of relief, the chances of a 1-1-1 coming just dropped by about 99%
actually quite some terrans do 1 rax marauder or 2 rax play into marine/maruader/tank/banshee allin. That is how theBest qualified for code A.There was also a game of Huk vs a terran in GSL on xelanga fortress (tough Huk won). It might sound counterintuitive, I guess the terran hopes to metagame there opponent.
Back at your base, I strongly suggest you open with Stalker-sentry-sentry (stolen from MC). The initial stalker will quickly deal with the scouting SCV, and two sentries are sufficient in holding 2 rax pressure before your WG finishes
this 1 gate expo build dies so hard vs 2 rax its not even funny. For reference xelnaga caverns bomber vs MC @dreamhack.
The idea behind this opening is knowing that you can skimp on units. If you sense the 1-1-1 coming, he will try to deny scouting (possibly a bunker) and will have no effective units (marines, unsieged tanks) to deny your expansion. The only thing that you have to worry about is banshees.
This is wrong. There is also a very popular build which looks like the 1-1-1 build: 8 marine drop +4 hellions. Goody and TLO do it all the time. You need alot of units vs this if you expo.
If you are very confident in your micro and unit control, many advanced players will attempt to pick off units as the push approaches (forcing multiple siege/unsieges, and buying additional time).
This is essential imo.
The big trouble vs this build: You see it coming, stop at 32 probes, produce immortal + units out of 5gates, and I still only have 30-40% win ratio vs this. On some maps, its ridiculous (close air meta e.g.).
You forget to speak about bunkers. Terran build like 3 bunkers and seiges behind it. Your zealots are worthless then.
I play vs hasuobs, and ask him how to hold 1-1-1 allin. He answers me: 'if terrans executes correctly, terran has 90% win ratio.'
I offrace as terran and 2-0 a protoss which I have trouble defeating in pvp.
I ask my terran friend; he tells me 'banshees should be nerfed imo'.
I will continue practicing vs this strategy until I am able to defeat it. rsvp, your idea to flank is a good one, I will be trying it out. This thread is pretty nicely done, and I hope toss keep contributing. But tbh, I expect a nerf incoming as many toss in GSL have been struggling vs terran.
PS: banshee tank marine moves out around 8:30-9 min mark and is at your base at 9:30 -10 min. banshee-raven-stim marines (aka polt push- it is less common): moves out 9:30-10min. Like 1 min slower.
Now that I am writing this I just got an idea: why don't we bring our army to there ramp and ff? banshees will be annoying, but we should win quite some time by doing this (like forcing seige etc). I will try that out tomorrow and report my results.
Now that I am writing this I just got an idea: why don't we bring our army to there ramp and ff? banshees will be annoying, but we should win quite some time by doing this (like forcing seige etc). I will try that out tomorrow and report my results.
What, like a 3gate pressure expand? If you take your army to the ramp AFTER you've expanded and so on you risk losing everything if they aren't going 1-1-1. I suppose there might be an Observer timing in Gate-expo-Robo or Gate-Robo-expo where if you scout they are going 1-1-1 you can just take your units and FF the ramp for a while, but I don't think it is a final solution as Banshees will give you problems, and you need like 5-6 sentries to constantly FF a ramp which means you cannot tech up at all and will have too few Stalkers to prevent Banshee harass. If you just mean for like 20 seconds, yeah probably but you have to hit the right timing and hope they aren't going for a delayed Polt-style push, otherwise your FFs will be useless and you waste energy and risk dying to a non-1-1-1 build.
3gate expand is bad vs the Banshees, and plus Terran isn't really in a rush to move out until after he reaches the right number of units, which is after the semi-contain 3gate expo gives you.
On August 12 2011 13:06 Govou wrote: a new build just came about in korea specifically designed to counter 1-1-1. Here are some replays of korean protoss player using that build. I hear this guy is 5th in Grand Master in Korea and is Zenex player.
I know most of you guys dont read korean but he doesnt really explain it neither. Just offered his replays.
how to download:
click '원원원.sc2replays' and other ***.sc2replays at top part of your screen.
I'm not a competitive player nor a protoss player. I did not watch the replays myself yet but from the comments it looks legit and a real easy build against 1-1-1.
it was just a one base collosus build, which isnt really that optimal, as if he scouts no expansion, the T should just expand himself.
i think you are wrong.even artosis mentioned best response for 1-1-1 is collo build with one base.if you watch the replays toss take his expo imm. after he saw CC in his base.so you are not behind and still had the same base and eco.i read all OP advice but nothing getting really close to collo build.if there is a hard counter unit for marines why dont we use it?i strongly recommend these replays to get watched.
i think you are wrong.even artosis mentioned best response for 1-1-1 is collo build with one base.if you watch the replays toss take his expo imm. after he saw CC in his base.so you are not behind and still had the same base and eco.i read all OP advice but nothing getting really close to collo build.if there is a hard counter unit for marines why dont we use it?i strongly recommend these replays to get watched.
Well i know you're wrong because terran can just opt to expand and be ahead. seige tanks and bunkers will hold collo in low numbers, especially without chargelots AND he can harass with banshees. im not sure if he could contain you, but i wouldn't be surprised if he could expo first and contain you as well
EDIT: Thank you QTIP (are you the QTIP from that Obs custom a while ago? quite a while ago?) for this guide.. I've had a lot of success holding it off, unfortunately terrans never leave their base before 10:30, so its not very well executed.. or they're waiting longer/too long. But it works so i have no complaints
However, i watched the 2 repalys which arent the hellion drop. And the Terrans are just awful. In the Xelnaga one, he makes a raven for literally no reason. It drains his resources hugely, delays his push and doesnt even have 100 energy by the engagement. If hedve pushed like 45 seconds earlier without the raven im pretty sure hedve won. If hedve brought scv im sure.
The other one was better but still the T was poor. He got caught with his tanks unsieged and had to panic siege. Didnt focus fire at all. Banshees and tanks shooting zealots etc.
While this guide looks good and as a T i hope it stops all the whining, ive yet to see a replay of you beating a decently executed one.
I am really surprised people don't like colossi against this. I am diamond but I've been stopping these with colo pretty regularly. You can definitely get 1 colossi out and 2nd one on the way. Since the tanks usually siege one jump away from your expo you can delay until second colo pops. You put down the robo bay after 2nd gateway, about when your nexus finishes and your observer gets into their base. Obviously chronoboost the colos, and get a gas on your expansion. I usually go with a saturated main base and 3 gas 3-6 mineral workers on your natural.
It's basically the same composition - 2 sentries, a bunch of zealots, and just enough stalkers to get the air, but with a colossi instead of immortals. They slaughter marines/SCVs so fast that your zealots easily take care of tanks, you don't even need the immortals.
Ok, I officialy change my mind: its probably not possible to hold this push on certain maps if you expo, e.g. shakuras. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/175398-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau This game was played at top master on eu server. I got demolished, it was not even close. I am not sure what I could have done.
Edit: They push around 8 min and are at your base at 8:30.
On August 16 2011 04:24 Squigly wrote: I still don understand all the whining about it. People are complaining that they cant stop a 1 base all in, with an expo.
Its pretty much people complaining that they need to get good at scouting.
dude, I 100% know its coming, and so do all other toss players.
Okay then. You made 2 observers. Why? Thats a lot of robo time. You knew there was no cloak. WHy make a second obs? You could easily have had an immortal.
Im not saying youve held im saying you couldve done better. You also never cut probes.
On August 16 2011 04:24 Squigly wrote: I still don understand all the whining about it. People are complaining that they cant stop a 1 base all in, with an expo.
Its pretty much people complaining that they need to get good at scouting.
It's actually better if you expand since you get to use the extra income before the push comes. Plus, if you're telling us to not expand, you're telling us to blind 1 base allin every game.
On August 16 2011 04:24 Squigly wrote: I still don understand all the whining about it. People are complaining that they cant stop a 1 base all in, with an expo.
Its pretty much people complaining that they need to get good at scouting.
Why don't people read the op and realise that you must expo in order to hold the 1 base all in order to have enough units to stop the push. On 1 base, you can support 1 Robo and 3 Gates (barely), on 2 base you can support 1 Robo and 5 Gates. I can't believe people don't understand the basics of RTS, if 1 base could produce more units than 2 base then why the fuck do people expand?
In a PvP, if one player went 16 nexus into 7 gates, and one player went 4 gate, who would win if the 4gate guy attacked at 10 minutes? THE GUY THAT WENT 16 NEXUS.
The same comparison can be made here. Protoss needs that expansion to get enough units to hold, and an early nexus is the best method. Sure, a 3 gate expand loses miserably but we aren't talking about that build here.
On August 16 2011 04:33 Squigly wrote: Okay then. You made 2 observers. Why? Thats a lot of robo time. You knew there was no cloak. WHy make a second obs? You could easily have had an immortal.
Im not saying youve held im saying you couldve done better. You also never cut probes.
I was going to take your posts seriously, then I looked at some of your other threads. (A true Protoss hater)
I'll reply out of decency.
2 Observers is covered in the guide.
"This is completely stylistic, and others may prefer just a single observer. Two observers I find is simply safer. On maps/spawns with long distances, your observer may be getting to your opponents base when the banshee is halfway to yours. Also, during the critical engagement where the game will be decided, Terrans with Ravens may snipe your observer and cloaked banshees will end the game. A second observer can be useful."
Emphasis on the word "stylistic". If you feel comfortable with 1, get 1.
Cutting Probes is covered in the guide.
"Continue to make workers until the low 30’s, and throw up an additional 3 Gateways."
You mention not reading 9 pages of feedback, try reading the OP first.
Also you discredit me as playing against weak and terrible Terrans. From what I've seen from your post history, you've been quoted as saying you are in Diamond. All the Terrans in the replays are in Master League. If you would like to PM me for a match (QTIP.630) to blow me away with your perfectly executed 1-1-1, I would be happy to upload the replay Win / Loss.
On August 16 2011 04:33 Squigly wrote: Okay then. You made 2 observers. Why? Thats a lot of robo time. You knew there was no cloak. WHy make a second obs? You could easily have had an immortal.
Im not saying youve held im saying you couldve done better. You also never cut probes.
I was going to take your posts seriously, then I looked at some of your other threads. (A true Protoss hater)
I'll reply out of decency.
2 Observers is covered in the guide.
"This is completely stylistic, and others may prefer just a single observer. Two observers I find is simply safer. On maps/spawns with long distances, your observer may be getting to your opponents base when the banshee is halfway to yours. Also, during the critical engagement where the game will be decided, Terrans with Ravens may snipe your observer and cloaked banshees will end the game. A second observer can be useful."
Emphasis on the word "stylistic". If you feel comfortable with 1, get 1.
Cutting Probes is covered in the guide.
"Continue to make workers until the low 30’s, and throw up an additional 3 Gateways."
You mention not reading 9 pages of feedback, try reading the OP first.
Also you discredit me as playing against weak and terrible Terrans. From what I've seen from your post history, you've been quoted as saying you are in Diamond. All the Terrans in the replays are in Master League. If you would like to PM me for a match (QTIP.630) to blow me away with your perfectly executed 1-1-1, I would be happy to upload the replay Win / Loss.
Im pretty sure i said your guide was good. Im not sure why your taking this personally. Im not saying your wrong. You yourself said you need more repalys.
You need to calm down its just a game
Ive read the OP obviously, what im saying is that what he did obviously didnt work. At all, or even close. He asked for what he could have done better. And i believe cutting probes and not making 2 obs would have been better.
Basically chill out, stop getting personal its just a game. And he asked so i gave advice. If you dont agree that is fair enough.
Also he could have used the 1st observer to check for cloak. If not then he doesnt need the second one. What your saying is stylistic, i personally disagree with. If you get angry at people disagreeing with you, well, you shouldnt post in TL
I am curious though, what do you think he should have done in this specific example?
EDIT: also you seem to be referring to your opinion as fact. Also weak and terrible? Lol. Im fairly sure i didnt use those words, i said they werent that well executed. If you want to misquote me, at least do it well
Here's something to consider, what is a good way to make the Terran make mistakes while doing the push? Assuming you have superior multi tasking, what are the kinds of things you can do to mess up the Terran doing this build?
On August 16 2011 04:18 AA.spoon wrote: Ok, I officialy change my mind: its probably not possible to hold this push on certain maps if you expo, e.g. shakuras. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/175398-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau This game was played at top master on eu server. I got demolished, it was not even close. I am not sure what I could have done.
Edit: They push around 8 min and are at your base at 8:30.
Yeah.. at MLG Boxer moved out at 8 minutes. I don't know why my level terrans (low-mid masters on NA) insist on 5 tanks and 4 banshees moving out at like 11 minutes lol.
However you have to expo or ... it's imbalanced. I mean really. I suppose you could have gone 1 gate FE and not 1 gate robo (but that has its own risks?). But other than that, idk. 8 minute push is sooo much harder to hold than a 10 minute one, even with army scaling in T's favor.
I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there.
On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote: I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there.
Would you min posting the replay? Sounds interesting
On August 16 2011 04:18 AA.spoon wrote: Ok, I officialy change my mind: its probably not possible to hold this push on certain maps if you expo, e.g. shakuras. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/175398-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau This game was played at top master on eu server. I got demolished, it was not even close. I am not sure what I could have done.
Edit: They push around 8 min and are at your base at 8:30.
Yeah.. at MLG Boxer moved out at 8 minutes. I don't know why my level terrans (low-mid masters on NA) insist on 5 tanks and 4 banshees moving out at like 11 minutes lol.
However you have to expo or ... it's imbalanced. I mean really. I suppose you could have gone 1 gate FE and not 1 gate robo (but that has its own risks?). But other than that, idk. 8 minute push is sooo much harder to hold than a 10 minute one, even with army scaling in T's favor.
This is 100% true. If I go for my two observers, and the push comes at 8 minutes, often times my first immortal is only 50% complete. This puts you in an extremely tough position as a Protoss player. You don't have enough forces to force mid map engagements without losing units, and the Terran almost ALWAYS gets good positioning if they come this early. The only way I seem to break these timings are to pull probes (unfortunately).
On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote: I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there.
Would you min posting the replay? Sounds interesting
I would like to review a replay of this as well. I find it hard to believe that you are safely able to get all of these units at 8:30 without dying to any early pressure, but a replay would be the bottom line.
On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote: I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there.
Would you min posting the replay? Sounds interesting
I would like to review a replay of this as well. I find it hard to believe that you are safely able to get all of these units at 8:30 without dying to any early pressure, but a replay would be the bottom line.
Well I mean the whole point is you've scouted 1/1/1 with the observer. The opener is the same as yours, gate robo expand. Working on the replay
probably the best thing to do would be to send your first observer directly to the terran main to check for cloak while starting on an immortal. Once you see the tech lab you either let the immortal finish or cancel it to chrono another observer ASAP. Could maybe go observer#2 before immortal as long as you have vision on his base before it completes.
Would depend a bit on timings, obv this is rubbish if cloak research can be done before you spot his tech lab.
It's not so much the build as it is the idea of pulling probes off gas because all you're making is zealots and maybe a phoenix here and there. With that in mind:
Heres a replay of me just building stuff against a computer, after thinking about the build for a little bit: Replay 1
And here's where I first tried it - it was super rough, and my opponent wasnt so great either, gifting me a free banshee. But think about the idea moreso than the execution. The replay is from an 1v1 obs game, so you have to fast forward to 42:40 to find it. Sorry about that... just watch the first replay if you want timings. Replay 2
The problem with 1/1/1 is that sentries are pure, utter crap against it. Remember, if you put those probes on minerals instead of gas, you could have had nearly 2.5 zealots for each sentry you make. Of course, the problem is you need tons of sentries to hold a 3 rax, if he does that instead. It's easy to hold 1/1/1 with an expo if you stay on 1 gas and just spam zealots, but then you are just dead if he 3 raxes you. It's not possible to scout which one is coming until it's far too late. If you stay on 1 gas you can't open zealot sentry sentry, and if you open zealot stalker stalker you are 100% dead even if you see the 3 rax with your zealot+stalker poke. You now do not have enough gas to make enough sentries to hold it when he shows up with all his SCVs. Conversely, the 1/1/1 just kills you if you open zealot sentry sentry, now you can't poke at his ramp and get no scouting info until you get there with an observer, and it's again too late.
A lot of the stuff in this thread is just ridiculous theorycrafting that does not really work. Gas heavy openings with sentries and immortals do not work against a well executed 1/1/1. You do not have the APM required. The top pros barely have the APM required. They lose to it more often than not. You think you can do it? Seriously, you have to split up your zealots, (so tank splash doesn't get them all) FF perfectly, get guardian shield up, manually move the sentries forward so your zealots are covered by GS, micro your immortals so they're not shooting marines, dance your stalkers as their shields drop, etc etc. While you're doing all this you also have to be chrono boosting your warpgates and robo while placing down reinforcements. Oh and if he drops PDD you have to back up and repeat this entire process again. Even a tiny mistake at any point costs you the game instantly. Leave a 1 space gap in your FF? You lose. Immortal got stuck behind stalker? You lose. Sentries or zealots too bunched and take massive splash from 1 tank volley? You lose. GS too late or GS not covering zealots? You lose. Miss finishing of WG cooldown by 5 seconds? You lose.
In comparison, all the Terran has to do is 1a and push siege mode. Oh, he also needs to build reinforcements, but he's Terran, he can queue up more units by pressing one button. He doesn't need to actually place them on the map like you do. You don't have the APM needed to beat this with a "safe" build that doesn't die to early rax pressure + pulled SCVs. I'll repeat my advice from earlier.....just accept that you are going to take a build order loss against Terran a significant percentage of the time. Focus on winning the games you can win. I would recommend 2 gate expo with only 1 gas, and then stay on the 1 gas for a long time. Don't make sentries. Once the expo is started get 3 more gates. Don't get a robo, get a forge instead, boost out +1 armor and put a cannon in the center of your minerals to save your econ from cloak. Get 4-5 stalkers and just lots of zealots from that point while your build up your probe count. This will hold 2 rax pressure easily while also demolishing the 1/1/1. You are straight up dead if he does a 1 gas 3 rax all in, but thems the breaks.
On August 16 2011 04:33 Squigly wrote: Okay then. You made 2 observers. Why? Thats a lot of robo time. You knew there was no cloak. WHy make a second obs? You could easily have had an immortal.
Im not saying youve held im saying you couldve done better. You also never cut probes.
I was going to take your posts seriously, then I looked at some of your other threads. (A true Protoss hater)
I'll reply out of decency.
2 Observers is covered in the guide.
"This is completely stylistic, and others may prefer just a single observer. Two observers I find is simply safer. On maps/spawns with long distances, your observer may be getting to your opponents base when the banshee is halfway to yours. Also, during the critical engagement where the game will be decided, Terrans with Ravens may snipe your observer and cloaked banshees will end the game. A second observer can be useful."
Emphasis on the word "stylistic". If you feel comfortable with 1, get 1.
Cutting Probes is covered in the guide.
"Continue to make workers until the low 30’s, and throw up an additional 3 Gateways."
You mention not reading 9 pages of feedback, try reading the OP first.
Also you discredit me as playing against weak and terrible Terrans. From what I've seen from your post history, you've been quoted as saying you are in Diamond. All the Terrans in the replays are in Master League. If you would like to PM me for a match (QTIP.630) to blow me away with your perfectly executed 1-1-1, I would be happy to upload the replay Win / Loss.
Im pretty sure i said your guide was good. Im not sure why your taking this personally. Im not saying your wrong. You yourself said you need more repalys.
You need to calm down its just a game
Ive read the OP obviously, what im saying is that what he did obviously didnt work. At all, or even close. He asked for what he could have done better. And i believe cutting probes and not making 2 obs would have been better.
Basically chill out, stop getting personal its just a game. And he asked so i gave advice. If you dont agree that is fair enough.
Also he could have used the 1st observer to check for cloak. If not then he doesnt need the second one. What your saying is stylistic, i personally disagree with. If you get angry at people disagreeing with you, well, you shouldnt post in TL
I am curious though, what do you think he should have done in this specific example?
EDIT: also you seem to be referring to your opinion as fact. Also weak and terrible? Lol. Im fairly sure i didnt use those words, i said they werent that well executed. If you want to misquote me, at least do it well
Those two posts of yours don't really match with each other well
On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote: I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there.
It sounds like you are trying to see how many units you can get at a certain time point rather than what your army would naturally be in the normal flow of the game. If you open stargate, you don't need a robo + observer unless you actually scout him researching cloak with your phoenix. If you open robo, by the time your observer trucks it over to their base you won't have enough time to pop a stargate and enough phoenixes in time to make the investment worth it. And unless you opened stargate you likely will have to make at least 1 extra stalker to fend off possible banshee harass. And what if he doesn't 1/1/1 at all and FE's?
I still think a stargate opener handles a 1/1/1 push the best while still being able to fend off early aggression. You still get a reasonably timed expo if you scout them expanding which combined with phoenix harassment potential brings you into the mid-game just find economically. The map presence afforded by phoenixes should not be underestimated.
mid-masters terran player here, and I'll give a little critique regarding the counter. Regarding the 1 gate fe or 1 gate robo fe, they are both very powerful and strong against a 1-1-1 all in, however a good terran will almost always send a first a scouting scv followed by a scouting helion before the banshee raven tank transition during the 1-1-1 build. If the scv scouts the nexus building, the terran can easily have time to abandon building the starport and go for a thor all in (1 thor push), in which the protoss player will be crushed with decent marine stutter micro and repairing scvs. The immortal will be focused down, and the timing hits just before production kicks in for the expansion.
In my opinion, stargate builds are indeed the hard counter, though agreed are a bit tricky. Phoenix harass to delay the terran from moving out can allow you to get the units needed to hold off the push. Just my two cents.
On August 17 2011 05:05 RaE21 wrote: mid-masters terran player here, and I'll give a little critique regarding the counter. Regarding the 1 gate fe or 1 gate robo fe, they are both very powerful and strong against a 1-1-1 all in, however a good terran will almost always send a first a scouting scv followed by a scouting helion before the banshee raven tank transition during the 1-1-1 build. If the scv scouts the nexus building, the terran can easily have time to abandon building the starport and go for a thor all in (1 thor push), in which the protoss player will be crushed with decent marine stutter micro and repairing scvs. The immortal will be focused down, and the timing hits just before production kicks in for the expansion.
The correct protoss response to do this is to abandon the natural expansion and defend at the top of the ramp. I feel like thors are much easier to hold off than a strong marine/tank/banshee/scv attack.
1 robo 4 gate is very versatile and is great against any tech you throw at the protoss.
Sorry if this has been addressed, if at all possible isn't it best to gas steal with your scouting probe if he has one gas already? If he leaves one marine to shoot away at it his 1-1-1 will be super late - and you get potentially better second scout -, feels like pretty good info for 75 mins.
On August 17 2011 05:29 Sated wrote: Gas steals are a good way to delay the 111, but if they're going for something more bio-heavy then you're essentially wasting 75 minerals. I don't mind gas-stealing because it does give me some free-scouting and it does heavily delay any cloaked banshee cheese (which I fear more than the 111 itself!), but you've got to balance out in your head that you do it at the cost of ~a zealot against a bio-heavy push!
Atm my preferred build is gas steal and 2 gate robo, skipping the zealot, With a lot of the stuff covered in this guide I feel it holds the 1-1-1 pretty well, I seem to manage to get charge easily in time which I feel is well worth the reduced unit count. However I'm only mid masters and constantly plagued by the "was that just my opponent being bad?" question so feel free to point out the error in that.
It's an easy hold of any bio push, obviously the big issue is a fast expansion and you will often have to deal with a slightly later second than him. I've noticed a lot of terrans do some kind of early bio poke with their expo, if they lose much to FF it seems easy to transition into 4gate + 3 chronod immortals for bunker/marauder and just destroy him, again though, it works in mid masters and dunno if it has a future,...see HuK's thoughts on his GSL match vs Bomber.
On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote: I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there.
It sounds like you are trying to see how many units you can get at a certain time point rather than what your army would naturally be in the normal flow of the game. If you open stargate, you don't need a robo + observer unless you actually scout him researching cloak with your phoenix. If you open robo, by the time your observer trucks it over to their base you won't have enough time to pop a stargate and enough phoenixes in time to make the investment worth it. And unless you opened stargate you likely will have to make at least 1 extra stalker to fend off possible banshee harass. And what if he doesn't 1/1/1 at all and FE's?
I still think a stargate opener handles a 1/1/1 push the best while still being able to fend off early aggression. You still get a reasonably timed expo if you scout them expanding which combined with phoenix harassment potential brings you into the mid-game just find economically. The map presence afforded by phoenixes should not be underestimated.
Please watch the two replays before criticizing. I open with gate robo expand. Upon scouting 1/1/1 with the observer, you have time to start stargate, pull probes off gas, and go up to 4gates. That lends to a solid composition, with 2-3 phoenixes at the earliest push timings. I wanted to open robo for the sake of being safe against most other things, the stargate is a response to 1/1/1 because yes, I agree that stargate is the best way to hold it off.
I must stress that I do NOT know the timings exactly and I'm still playing around with this. I'm just suggesting that it is possible to open robo, and react to a 1/1/1 by going stargate and pulling probes off gas for more zealots.
On August 16 2011 10:02 susySquark wrote: I pulled off a defense with 1 stargate, 1 robo, 4gates and an expo. The robo only made 1 obs, and the stargate only made 3 phoenixes. I had maybe 3 sentries and the rest zealots. I think the important part of what happened that game is that I pulled 4 out of 6 workers off gas to make more zealots as soon as I was sure the push was coming.
This was diamond level, but I think experimenting with gas timing/pulling might help toss get the extra zealots/production/whatever they need to hold this off.
EDIT: Just tried to replicate the results... turns out I have 3 phoenixes, 8 zealots, 1 stalker, 3 sentries, and 1 observer at 8:30 (30 probes). Do you guys think thats enough? As the terran waits longer, the zealot numbers just get much much higher, and I can add phoenixes too. I had enough gas for 1 more phoenix before I run dry or had to put probes back on gas.
Keep in mind, I'm only a diamond player, so things like supply blocks did happen for small 1-5 second amounts, as well as forgetting probes/production here and there.
It sounds like you are trying to see how many units you can get at a certain time point rather than what your army would naturally be in the normal flow of the game. If you open stargate, you don't need a robo + observer unless you actually scout him researching cloak with your phoenix. If you open robo, by the time your observer trucks it over to their base you won't have enough time to pop a stargate and enough phoenixes in time to make the investment worth it. And unless you opened stargate you likely will have to make at least 1 extra stalker to fend off possible banshee harass. And what if he doesn't 1/1/1 at all and FE's?
I still think a stargate opener handles a 1/1/1 push the best while still being able to fend off early aggression. You still get a reasonably timed expo if you scout them expanding which combined with phoenix harassment potential brings you into the mid-game just find economically. The map presence afforded by phoenixes should not be underestimated.
Please watch the two replays before criticizing. I open with gate robo expand. Upon scouting 1/1/1 with the observer, you have time to start stargate, pull probes off gas, and go up to 4gates. That lends to a solid composition, with 2-3 phoenixes at the earliest push timings. I wanted to open robo for the sake of being safe against most other things, the stargate is a response to 1/1/1 because yes, I agree that stargate is the best way to hold it off.
I must stress that I do NOT know the timings exactly and I'm still playing around with this. I'm just suggesting that it is possible to open robo, and react to a 1/1/1 by going stargate and pulling probes off gas for more zealots.
Oh my apologies I did not see you post replays.
Ok so I watched the first replay (sorry I'm not going to fast forward 40 mins into a game to watch the second replay where you yourself say was bad execution), but you threw down your expo (off 1-gate) and stargate before your obs reached their base. You are basically doing these things blind so you wouldn't be able to do these in a real game because of the threat of an early rax push.
If you want a more realistic approach you would only throw down your expo/stargate after your obs reaches his base (and mind you this is on XN where the rush distance is small so your obs would take even longer to scout them on other maps). Still, if you open robo and they did decide to FE you will be behind economically going into the mid-game which is I prefer to open stargate off any 1-base play or just straight blind open 1-gate FE which is viable on large maps.
Basically the gist of a stargate opener is you can open gate-stargate-gate and then scout w/ your phoenix and either add another gate if they are doing an early push or if they are expanding you can expand then yourself. If you choose to FE then you can pretty much just follow this guide, it is fairly fleshed out. But note the part about having to make 2 obs in case of 1-base cloak banshee timing, which would affect your unit composition.
And all my earlier points still stand. If you opened FE, you have to make more than 1 stalker vs banshees. This is another reason I like stargate openers because with phoenix on the field you can skip early stalker production.
Also one last note as said numerous times there are a few variations of the 1/1/1 timing push, so the map presence afforded by phoenixes is also a big factor in preparing for the push whenever it happens to come.
Watching the IEM Gamescom day 1, Select versus TSL_Killer, game 1 Select counters Killer's nexus first with 4 rax marine all in.
Game 2, Killer opens with zealot, stalker, stalker against a "greedy" wall-off by Select (3 depots, no bunkers) at his ramp in Metalopolis. Killer get's some good harass done, then follows up with fast mass-blink stalkers. Ahhh but Select is going for the 1-1-1. Killer spots this with robo --> observer, then begins countering.
He counters the 1-1-1 by hanging out the front door of Select with 7 stalkers, just hit n running. Also coming at different angles to snipe tanks. Trades 1-2 stalkers for a tank each time, until Select finally gets to Killer's base.
Killer munches the all-in with ease, with a mass stalker army + 1 sentry for Guardian and just 1 round of zealot warpins.
I'm horrible at explaining, but it'll be very useful to watch the replays/vods once it's up.
I forgot how Huk stopped MMA's, but whatever Huk did was impressive as well
On August 17 2011 05:05 RaE21 wrote: mid-masters terran player here, and I'll give a little critique regarding the counter. Regarding the 1 gate fe or 1 gate robo fe, they are both very powerful and strong against a 1-1-1 all in, however a good terran will almost always send a first a scouting scv followed by a scouting helion before the banshee raven tank transition during the 1-1-1 build. If the scv scouts the nexus building, the terran can easily have time to abandon building the starport and go for a thor all in (1 thor push), in which the protoss player will be crushed with decent marine stutter micro and repairing scvs. The immortal will be focused down, and the timing hits just before production kicks in for the expansion.
In my opinion, stargate builds are indeed the hard counter, though agreed are a bit tricky. Phoenix harass to delay the terran from moving out can allow you to get the units needed to hold off the push. Just my two cents.
I'd rather play vs a thor all in than a 1/1/1 with tanks and banshees any day.
So how does a ht rush work against the 1-1-1. Usually i just do the standard zealot sentry immortal with a few stalkers but imagine if you detect it early you could get out a couple of HT and lots of zealots.
On August 17 2011 20:53 Tazerenix wrote: So how does a ht rush work against the 1-1-1. Usually i just do the standard zealot sentry immortal with a few stalkers but imagine if you detect it early you could get out a couple of HT and lots of zealots.
Thoughts?
I have had minor success, with an on the whim arcon/zealot against later 1-1-1's. Unsure yet.
On August 17 2011 05:05 RaE21 wrote: mid-masters terran player here, and I'll give a little critique regarding the counter. Regarding the 1 gate fe or 1 gate robo fe, they are both very powerful and strong against a 1-1-1 all in, however a good terran will almost always send a first a scouting scv followed by a scouting helion before the banshee raven tank transition during the 1-1-1 build. If the scv scouts the nexus building, the terran can easily have time to abandon building the starport and go for a thor all in (1 thor push), in which the protoss player will be crushed with decent marine stutter micro and repairing scvs. The immortal will be focused down, and the timing hits just before production kicks in for the expansion.
In my opinion, stargate builds are indeed the hard counter, though agreed are a bit tricky. Phoenix harass to delay the terran from moving out can allow you to get the units needed to hold off the push. Just my two cents.
A thor push is rediculously easy to stop if the factory isn't proxied so that definately is not an issue, especially if they have to wait for their hellion to scout your nexus before dropping an armory. Thor pushes in general are dead in TvP since autorepair and 250mm cannon were nerfed.
It seems all the rage in beating 1-1-1 is going for a quick expand whilst massing zealot and a few stalker sentry and immortal. How come some people are so against 1 base collosi? I have about 5 replays at home from some korean crushing the build with 1 base collosi (I can't remember where I got them from, somebody linked me to them on here but it was all korean so I didn't even understand what site it was). I can probably upload them when I next go home if people are interested.
But anyway I hear the main arguement is that 'terran can just expand and you will be behind'. But if you have an obs in his base you see when he expands, so what is to stop you from expanding yourself? If he decides to abandon his push, how is the toss behind? The toss has already reached the potent collosi tech, whereas the terran is left with tech somewhat redundant after the timing window has closed; seige tanks and banshees aren't all that useful (unless the terran had intended to go mech). More importantly, they will be behind on marauder count, won't have stim, shields or concussive or any vikings or medivacs. Couldn't you just expand when they do and head into the midgame with stronger tech? Or am I missing something here in my noobiness.
But anyway I hear the main arguement is that 'terran can just expand and you will be behind'. But if you have an obs in his base you see when he expands, so what is to stop you from expanding yourself? If he decides to abandon his push, how is the toss behind?
The first unit out of his starport should be the raven, in order to save up energy for PDD. This also means you probably won't have an obs in his base any more.
Terran can scout you with either a hellion or his first banshee, and if he sees you massing a big one-base ball he can always expand, tech up, and he already has a starport and a reactor (on his rax) to mass up vikings.
Other than that on a more general note, if you can chose to counter it off of one base or off of two bases, you should always go off of two bases
But anyway I hear the main arguement is that 'terran can just expand and you will be behind'. But if you have an obs in his base you see when he expands, so what is to stop you from expanding yourself? If he decides to abandon his push, how is the toss behind?
The first unit out of his starport should be the raven, in order to save up energy for PDD. This also means you probably won't have an obs in his base any more.
Terran can scout you with either a hellion or his first banshee, and if he sees you massing a big one-base ball he can always expand, tech up, and he already has a starport and a reactor (on his rax) to mass up vikings.
Other than that on a more general note, if you can chose to counter it off of one base or off of two bases, you should always go off of two bases
Not all 1-1-1 pushes involve a raven, and if they are getting one you can always park your observer somewhere outside his base where you can still see if he pushes out/expands or whatever.
Obviously you are right in that if you can counter it with 2 base it is much better than staying on 1 base, but whenever I see a 1 base collosi counter it looks so much easier than trying to do it off 2 base.
And its true he can always switch addons to start pumping vikings, but I think you could still argue the toss has a decent head start in tech. Would love to hear more opinions on this
On August 17 2011 22:06 Ryder. wrote: It seems all the rage in beating 1-1-1 is going for a quick expand whilst massing zealot and a few stalker sentry and immortal. How come some people are so against 1 base collosi? I have about 5 replays at home from some korean crushing the build with 1 base collosi (I can't remember where I got them from, somebody linked me to them on here but it was all korean so I didn't even understand what site it was). I can probably upload them when I next go home if people are interested.
But anyway I hear the main arguement is that 'terran can just expand and you will be behind'. But if you have an obs in his base you see when he expands, so what is to stop you from expanding yourself? If he decides to abandon his push, how is the toss behind? The toss has already reached the potent collosi tech, whereas the terran is left with tech somewhat redundant after the timing window has closed; seige tanks and banshees aren't all that useful (unless the terran had intended to go mech). More importantly, they will be behind on marauder count, won't have stim, shields or concussive or any vikings or medivacs. Couldn't you just expand when they do and head into the midgame with stronger tech? Or am I missing something here in my noobiness.
If you are going to wait for an obs in their base before expanding you are extremely behind if they are just about floating their orbital out of base when you arrive. 1 base colossus pushing has absolutely no use against MM expand builds. It is an 'ok' counter against 1 base banshee/tank push but they can easily just go for a tank expo afterwards and swap the reactor to their starport, hardly puts you ahead. The only option imo for P against T is to either do a very aggresive opening and slightly gamble that it will do damage or to expand quickly. A reactive opening like 2 gate robo is just very far behind if they did a quick in base expansion. A key point to remember here is that T reaches saturation far slower then P does because of Mules, therefore it is an advantage for T to keep the game restricted to fewer bases, P should always be playing hyperaggresive or expoing quickly imo in PvT. Robo openings are only good on really small maps where the quick obs is more useful.
On August 17 2011 19:59 JesusOurSaviour wrote: I feel that bumping this thread is warranted.
Watching the IEM Gamescom day 1, Select versus TSL_Killer, game 1 Select counters Killer's nexus first with 4 rax marine all in.
Game 2, Killer opens with zealot, stalker, stalker against a "greedy" wall-off by Select (3 depots, no bunkers) at his ramp in Metalopolis. Killer get's some good harass done, then follows up with fast mass-blink stalkers. Ahhh but Select is going for the 1-1-1. Killer spots this with robo --> observer, then begins countering.
He counters the 1-1-1 by hanging out the front door of Select with 7 stalkers, just hit n running. Also coming at different angles to snipe tanks. Trades 1-2 stalkers for a tank each time, until Select finally gets to Killer's base.
Killer munches the all-in with ease, with a mass stalker army + 1 sentry for Guardian and just 1 round of zealot warpins.
I'm horrible at explaining, but it'll be very useful to watch the replays/vods once it's up.
I forgot how Huk stopped MMA's, but whatever Huk did was impressive as well
So I'm guessing for game 1 killer saw the marines on top of the ramp? Dirty play (good) by Select
On August 18 2011 03:40 Xahhk wrote: So I'm guessing for game 1 killer saw the marines on top of the ramp? Dirty play (good) by Select
This is the weakness of any FE build that attempts to prepare for a 1-1-1, without a way of confirming the build.
Partial Info you can get, that may may/not be 1-1-1: - Only marines @ ramp, with/without bunker. - You see a tank come out.
Confirmation can be obtained by: - Observer in their base. - Air unit (phoenix) in their base. - Random bunker run-by with a stalker (I've done this only once ever! terran must have been afk...)
Without this confirmation, you run the risk of running into a 3/4rax stim, or some form of mech expand.
Obviously you're not really in any trouble if it turns out to be a mech expand.. you're just gonna have wasted 300 minerals on cannons you didnt need - whereas you pretty much want a robo vs Mech anyway.
Edit: This is why I prefer EITHER hallucination after WG from a 1gate sentry expand, or a CB'd phoenix from a stargate. (Of course Robo works too, I am just exploring other responses)
Have had moderate success with phoenix; if it's 1-1-1, I am in a great spot, if it's not 1-1-1, I can be in trouble (3rax stim).
On August 17 2011 20:53 Tazerenix wrote: So how does a ht rush work against the 1-1-1. Usually i just do the standard zealot sentry immortal with a few stalkers but imagine if you detect it early you could get out a couple of HT and lots of zealots.
Thoughts?
Someone always mentions this in 1-1-1 threads. There isn't a chance in hell that you could get HT+storm in time with enough of an army to back it up.
On August 17 2011 20:53 Tazerenix wrote: So how does a ht rush work against the 1-1-1. Usually i just do the standard zealot sentry immortal with a few stalkers but imagine if you detect it early you could get out a couple of HT and lots of zealots.
Thoughts?
Someone always mentions this in 1-1-1 threads. There isn't a chance in hell that you could get HT+storm in time with enough of an army to back it up.
Unfortunately, quick HT's does NOT work. You simply won't have them up in time with storm with typical 1-1-1 timings. If you have HT's with Storm + 75 energy at 8-9 minutes, then you should have died a long time ago.
I will say this: Against the 2-2-2 (2 base variation of this build) I think Storm and Charge are requirements. As many have mentioned in this thread, the Protoss anti-1-1-1 composition scales poorly in comparison with the Terran army. You need these upgrades to even stand a chance.
On August 17 2011 20:53 Tazerenix wrote: So how does a ht rush work against the 1-1-1. Usually i just do the standard zealot sentry immortal with a few stalkers but imagine if you detect it early you could get out a couple of HT and lots of zealots.
Thoughts?
Someone always mentions this in 1-1-1 threads. There isn't a chance in hell that you could get HT+storm in time with enough of an army to back it up.
Unfortunately, quick HT's does NOT work. You simply won't have them up in time with storm with typical 1-1-1 timings. If you have HT's with Storm + 75 energy at 8-9 minutes, then you should have died a long time ago.
I will say this: Against the 2-2-2 (2 base variation of this build) I think Storm and Charge are requirements. As many have mentioned in this thread, the Protoss anti-1-1-1 composition scales poorly in comparison with the Terran army. You need these upgrades to even stand a chance.
Do you have any opinions on a late 1 base thor push? Basically it's 3/1/1(3 naked racks) and hits at about 13 minutes with 35+marines, 3 thors, 5 banshees, a raven,and scvs.
I got completely rolled trying colossus/gateway, immortal/gateway, and chargelot/archon (granted my micro wasn't flawless by any means, but the terran essentially just 1a'd anyway). Hts seem like they are worth trying, I'm just hesitant to rely on them because I can't always tell if it's this late thor push or a standard 1/1/1, with the early raven possibly killing obs.
I can upload replays if you'd like to see/aren't familiar with it. Masters toss here btw
On August 17 2011 20:53 Tazerenix wrote: So how does a ht rush work against the 1-1-1. Usually i just do the standard zealot sentry immortal with a few stalkers but imagine if you detect it early you could get out a couple of HT and lots of zealots.
Thoughts?
Someone always mentions this in 1-1-1 threads. There isn't a chance in hell that you could get HT+storm in time with enough of an army to back it up.
Unfortunately, quick HT's does NOT work. You simply won't have them up in time with storm with typical 1-1-1 timings. If you have HT's with Storm + 75 energy at 8-9 minutes, then you should have died a long time ago.
I will say this: Against the 2-2-2 (2 base variation of this build) I think Storm and Charge are requirements. As many have mentioned in this thread, the Protoss anti-1-1-1 composition scales poorly in comparison with the Terran army. You need these upgrades to even stand a chance.
Do you have any opinions on a late 1 base thor push? Basically it's 3/1/1(3 naked racks) and hits at about 13 minutes with 35+marines, 3 thors, 5 banshees, a raven,and scvs.
I got completely rolled trying colossus/gateway, immortal/gateway, and chargelot/archon (granted my micro wasn't flawless by any means, but the terran essentially just 1a'd anyway). Hts seem like they are worth trying, I'm just hesitant to rely on them because I can't always tell if it's this late thor push or a standard 1/1/1, with the early raven possibly killing obs.
I can upload replays if you'd like to see/aren't familiar with it. Masters toss here btw
I'd like to see a replay. I've played against a similar Thor/banshee/marine ball (though I'm not sure about the timing). I remember defeating it quite handily with a Stalker Colossus Ball by just abusing thermal lance. The situation might be different though, so a replay would be great. Perhaps you can make it as another thread and we can comment there to avoid derailing.
This thor push seems to be a late version of the normal one which hits by 11. It hits when there will be 2 colossi out max. Im sure i have replays if u want to compare. Normally there is a raven 3-4 banshees, 2-3 thors depending on map and marines.
I have very good results with it. 1 base play obv does very well against it. That aside chargelot immortal also does well. Saying that i havent done is much since thors got nerfed hard, so maybe HTs now jsut tear it apart.
Not viable. Dies flat out to a 4 gate. You dont even scout in one of them. Also the P players you are playing against also see to refuse to scout. No expo at 9 min and they arent cutting probes.... or suiciding a probe to see whats up.
Im not saying you wont win some games with it. But the build is not solid, it auto dies to too many common P builds. You dont even put up 1 bunker
Please post comments to this in the thread I linked. Don't want to get off topic from Qtip's guide.
Not viable. Dies flat out to a 4 gate. You dont even scout in one of them. Also the P players you are playing against also see to refuse to scout. No expo at 9 min and they arent cutting probes.... or suiciding a probe to see whats up.
Im not saying you wont win some games with it. But the build is not solid, it auto dies to too many common P builds. You dont even put up 1 bunker
On August 17 2011 20:53 Tazerenix wrote: So how does a ht rush work against the 1-1-1. Usually i just do the standard zealot sentry immortal with a few stalkers but imagine if you detect it early you could get out a couple of HT and lots of zealots.
Thoughts?
Someone always mentions this in 1-1-1 threads. There isn't a chance in hell that you could get HT+storm in time with enough of an army to back it up.
Unfortunately, quick HT's does NOT work. You simply won't have them up in time with storm with typical 1-1-1 timings. If you have HT's with Storm + 75 energy at 8-9 minutes, then you should have died a long time ago.
I will say this: Against the 2-2-2 (2 base variation of this build) I think Storm and Charge are requirements. As many have mentioned in this thread, the Protoss anti-1-1-1 composition scales poorly in comparison with the Terran army. You need these upgrades to even stand a chance.
Do you have any opinions on a late 1 base thor push? Basically it's 3/1/1(3 naked racks) and hits at about 13 minutes with 35+marines, 3 thors, 5 banshees, a raven,and scvs.
I got completely rolled trying colossus/gateway, immortal/gateway, and chargelot/archon (granted my micro wasn't flawless by any means, but the terran essentially just 1a'd anyway). Hts seem like they are worth trying, I'm just hesitant to rely on them because I can't always tell if it's this late thor push or a standard 1/1/1, with the early raven possibly killing obs.
I can upload replays if you'd like to see/aren't familiar with it. Masters toss here btw
13 minutes? Pfft.. that means you have had about 6-7 mins of mining off 2 base as toss, should be easily holdable with gateway + immortal/colossus.
check socke vs select on iem.he just used 2 collos.it would be more easy if he didnot expand.OP dont like collo but the progamer who wins vs 1-1-1 uses collos.
On August 17 2011 20:53 Tazerenix wrote: So how does a ht rush work against the 1-1-1. Usually i just do the standard zealot sentry immortal with a few stalkers but imagine if you detect it early you could get out a couple of HT and lots of zealots.
Thoughts?
Someone always mentions this in 1-1-1 threads. There isn't a chance in hell that you could get HT+storm in time with enough of an army to back it up.
Unfortunately, quick HT's does NOT work. You simply won't have them up in time with storm with typical 1-1-1 timings. If you have HT's with Storm + 75 energy at 8-9 minutes, then you should have died a long time ago.
I will say this: Against the 2-2-2 (2 base variation of this build) I think Storm and Charge are requirements. As many have mentioned in this thread, the Protoss anti-1-1-1 composition scales poorly in comparison with the Terran army. You need these upgrades to even stand a chance.
I've been thinking about this for a while, and while I agree that storm is a bad idea, rushing high templar for archons seems a bit more viable. Archons are nearly as effective as colossus against the marines, and can also help clean up banshees. Their large size helps a bit with tank splash as well. You've also got feedback as an option if the terran skips cloak and energy builds up on banshees. I've only just started experimenting with it, but have had positive results thus far.
The timing for rushing an archon is roughly the same as colossus, but unlike 1-base colossus builds, templar tech gives you more options. If you go colossus and the terran expands and goes for a 2-base push instead, you're stuck on a weaker tech route. If you went templar, you can just expand yourself, get charge and storm, and be in a great spot.
The main problem I have with fast expanding and trying to defend with zealot/stalker or zealot/stalker/immortal is the lack of splash damage. If the terran delays their push, I have trouble dealing with the larger number of marines, but I'm afraid to tech because there's no way to know exactly when they're going to move out.
On August 19 2011 07:24 ssregitoss wrote: check socke vs select on iem.he just used 2 collos.it would be more easy if he didnot expand.OP dont like collo but the progamer who wins vs 1-1-1 uses collos.
SeleCT didn't use a raven and it was a somewhat delayed push.
On August 20 2011 00:34 MrPello wrote: QTIP I love you. I have now beaten the terran 4-gate twice in a row. Which is completly awesome. Thank you for this nice guide.
Yep, this build is really good vs marine/tank/banshee ^^. Sadly i just lost to a guy going 1-1-1, but instead of allining he went for a fast marine drop with hellions running at the front, and i died because i saw it a bit late and the 8 marines+ 4 hellions killed the few gateway units i had (doesn't help that they were badly out of position); sadly i don't have a replay because i was pissed and didn't save it. So, is it me just being really really bad, or can you hold something like that with robo before the gates?
edit: it actually was longer ago than i thought so nop, not in my unsaved replays :/
On August 20 2011 03:00 Teoita wrote: Yep, this build is really good vs marine/tank/banshee ^^. Sadly i just lost to a guy going 1-1-1, but instead of allining he went for a fast marine drop with hellions running at the front, and i died because i saw it a bit late and the 8 marines+ 4 hellions killed the few gateway units i had (doesn't help that they were badly out of position); sadly i don't have a replay because i was pissed and didn't save it. So, is it me just being really really bad, or can you hold something like that with robo before the gates?
If you jsut lost, then its still in your unsaved replays. It holds, i dunno your last 20-30?
I'm a master Terran and I recently started doing the 1/1/1 build mentioned in that thread I gave the link to.
I won all the games vs protoss who I tried this on (none of them gg'd lol). I was kind of disgusted how easy it was to execute and how effective it is. The toss players went for 2 gate robo, 3 gate VR and one of them went some kind of FE with fast colossus. I can look for the replays and upload them, if someone wants to see them.
None of them worked really effectively against my push. 2 gate robo put up the biggest fight, but at no point was I really losing. In every game my plan was not to finish the game with the first push, but rather to just hurt the toss' economy and reduce his unit count while expanding. The follow up push will include bfh and stimmed marines, both of which completely rape zealots. Then I just focus fired stalkers with my tanks and banshees took care of any colossi. GG.
I think a major weakness in the 1/1/1 is the banshees, if you can somehow manage to kill one or two of them, it will help you tremendously. I lost one banshee in the 2gate robo game while harassing, because I over-estimated the size of the void around his base.
One last tip for you toss players. Be ready for the hellion scout that usually comes with 1/1/1. My current record is 8 probe kills just because the toss didn't make a stalker.
Well, MC held off the initial push with a nearly identical strategy to this guide. Unfortunately, he died to the second push. Looks as if the 1-1-1 can transition perfectly into the 1-1-1.
Yeah I kind of wish all the terrans in tournaments just do this in TvP, just to make a point. The build is so strong you can win outright so easily. im still not sure how to stop the really fast version the moves out while starting seige mode at 8 minutes
On August 22 2011 02:15 Huntz wrote: Yeah I kind of wish all the terrans in tournaments just do this in TvP, just to make a point. The build is so strong you can win outright so easily. im still not sure how to stop the really fast version the moves out while starting seige mode at 8 minutes
It's been abused into reckless abandon in Code A and the qualifiers for Code A, so I'm sure IF it's going to be looked at, the process has begun already. Anyway, best of luck to Protoss, sucks to see MC go down to it.
The tanks are just soo hard to take care of. I can usually survive the first wave of marine/tank/banshee/raven and thats because they only have 1-2 tanks then. The 2nd would consist of 3-5 tanks and i just find it really really hard to take down the tanks without all the marines wiping me out!
I thought MC was going to do something spectacular with his pheonix strategy in game 3 Finals IEM but it seemed he wasn't playing at his best there =/
I know the gas steal has been asked about, but after seeing MC do something very similar to QTIP.'s guide, I just wanted to ask about one thing. He loses the scouting probe both games. Why not just gas steal and book it on out of there with the probe? At worst you lose the probe too, but in that case the marine is divided between chasing the probe and killing the assimilator. At best the terran doesn't 1-1-1. If he does, then it's delayed, which doesn't help much apparently. But I'll take a little help over none.
Concerning opening, it seems MC 12 gated today. Can protoss be a little more greedy early and go 14 gate and gas without that brief cut in probe production? I know you're tired of shooting this down, but why no HT for feedback? I read that storm comes out late, but 2 feedbacks on a raven and banshee plus the archon you get afterward would help immensely. It makes economic sense when trying to get an expansion running, as that costs all minerals.
Edit: one thing I meant to specify was 75 mins wasted on an assimilator isn't so bad if you keep the probe alive instead, based off of MC's scouting probes dying in Puma's base today.
I have been beating 1/1/1 a bunch recently. High masters on NA and playing vs Low masters on KR. When I know a 1/1/1 is coming I open 1 gate Stargate FE. I pump out phoenix to scout if he is getting cloak and if so I need to get observers. I use the Phoenix to keep him in his base for a little while I get 6 gates and cut probes around 35. Then I just mass zealot and if I have time get charge. I get a couple stalkers also. If I can delay the enough and get about 2 Archons I just roll over the all in and some HT work great at feedbacking the banshee, raven and PDD.. I keep scouting with Phoenix to know when the push is coming so I can attack before they siege up. If they siege late I use the Phoenix to attack banshees because I won't have to lift the tanks.
This works for me, but I don't know if it would work for high level players in Korea. It's simalar to what Tassadar did to Yoda except got blink and charge instead of archons or better tech.
On August 22 2011 05:31 Beardedclam wrote: I have been beating 1/1/1 a bunch recently. High masters on NA and playing vs Low masters on KR. When I know a 1/1/1 is coming I open 1 gate Stargate FE. I pump out phoenix to scout if he is getting cloak and if so I need to get observers. I use the Phoenix to keep him in his base for a little while I get 6 gates and cut probes around 35. Then I just mass zealot and if I have time get charge. I get a couple stalkers also. If I can delay the enough and get about 2 Archons I just roll over the all in and some HT work great at feedbacking the banshee, raven and PDD.. I keep scouting with Phoenix to know when the push is coming so I can attack before they siege up. If they siege late I use the Phoenix to attack banshees because I won't have to lift the tanks.
This works for me, but I don't know if it would work for high level players in Korea. It's simalar to what Tassadar did to Yoda except got blink and charge instead of archons or better tech.
I gotta ask... Are you clarevoyant?
If you wanna open 1 gate stargate FE you gotta do it blindly before the T reveals his 1-1-1 build (if he denys scouting wich I asume he can with 2-3 marines)
The problem is for the toss that it's very hard for them to scout and when they scout it, it is almost too late. I think protoss has to theorycraft to get something solid that can work vs this.
I remember when all the Z's did the Roach + Ling all in vs 3g expand and everyone was saying that it was too strong but it slowly faded away as the players faced it more and more. Hopefully the players solve this and not Blizzard.
The bunker goes up before my stargate. If a bunker is up I know he isn't attacking unless he is metagaming me. Even if he is doing a FE I can still expand quick and pick off scvs and mules with Phoenix.
3 gate robo beats it silly.even artosis said it and incontrol.there are replays on this pages which proves it.why everyone here wants to ignore it i dont understand.if you are not sure what terran is doing go robo and make an obs.you will not be behind.
On August 22 2011 06:14 ssregitoss wrote: 3 gate robo beats it silly.even artosis said it and incontrol.there are replays on this pages which proves it.why everyone here wants to ignore it i dont understand.if you are not sure what terran is doing go robo and make an obs.you will not be behind.
3 gate robo is NOT the answer, its been said time and time again. If he scouts that you have not expanded he can just expand himself with/without contain and you are behind. 3gate robo is a seriously poor opening against any other terran opening, thus you are gambling if you do it.
On August 22 2011 06:14 ssregitoss wrote: 3 gate robo beats it silly.even artosis said it and incontrol.there are replays on this pages which proves it.why everyone here wants to ignore it i dont understand.if you are not sure what terran is doing go robo and make an obs.you will not be behind.
Okay, your observer gets to the terran base and you see he went 1 rax CC. What now?
On August 22 2011 06:14 ssregitoss wrote: 3 gate robo beats it silly.even artosis said it and incontrol.there are replays on this pages which proves it.why everyone here wants to ignore it i dont understand.if you are not sure what terran is doing go robo and make an obs.you will not be behind.
Okay, your observer gets to the terran base and you see he went 1 rax CC. What now?
And whats worse, 3 gate robo still loses to it. If you expand, you are in a terrible shape expansion is too late. If 1 base colossi, well lets say there are known ways to absolutely destory 1 base colossi with 1/1/1.
3 gate robo is actually terrible vs everything except 3 rax stim all in (lol).
On August 22 2011 05:31 Beardedclam wrote: I have been beating 1/1/1 a bunch recently. High masters on NA and playing vs Low masters on KR. When I know a 1/1/1 is coming I open 1 gate Stargate FE. I pump out phoenix to scout if he is getting cloak and if so I need to get observers. I use the Phoenix to keep him in his base for a little while I get 6 gates and cut probes around 35. Then I just mass zealot and if I have time get charge. I get a couple stalkers also. If I can delay the enough and get about 2 Archons I just roll over the all in and some HT work great at feedbacking the banshee, raven and PDD.. I keep scouting with Phoenix to know when the push is coming so I can attack before they siege up. If they siege late I use the Phoenix to attack banshees because I won't have to lift the tanks.
This works for me, but I don't know if it would work for high level players in Korea. It's simalar to what Tassadar did to Yoda except got blink and charge instead of archons or better tech.
Can you upload a replay of you doing this please man, i keep losing to it its retarded
One thing i do in every P v T now is to just gas steal every terrans. For 75 minerals, I get to delay the 1/1/1 for a long time (if he still decides to), or I get to play on safely knowing that a 1/1/1 isnt coming.
On August 22 2011 07:42 ZenithM wrote: Couldn't we (protoss :D) design some kind of one base all in transition from 2gate robo to punish the really fast gasless expos?
Would an immortal bust work (how many immortals?)? Would a contain while expanding work? A warpprism 4gate? A one base colossus in response?
What do you think of this idea?
Also, I don't know precisely that: how does a 1 gate robo (into 2nd gate) fair against a one rax marauder expand economically?
If you see 1rax FE, and you've gone 2gate robo - move out, apply pressure - expand. Take a faster 3rd.
You're behind, but you want to create the idea of attacking, while expanding.
You've got an army/tech advantage, so you want to be pressuring with this, to hopefully further delay his own tech (medivacs).
If he's gone into mech from 1rax FE, contain and take super fast 3rd.
the gas steal really doesnt do much since by the time they kill it is about the time they take their second gas usually. gas steal only helps for scouting the 1-1-1 if u see a fast factory with a rescout while hes killing ur gas
Is it possible to have chargelots/archon/HT out before this push hits? HT's FB could help with the banshee, raven & PDD. I assume there is no way to get storm out but I would like to know how much archon/HT/Chargelots you can get out. Leaves you pretty weak(read: Dead) to cloak banshees and reduces scouting to hallucination or nothing . I am not a pro, I am a terran scrub . Just asking a question.
Do you have a replay of performing this build, but scouting a 2 rax Bio build instead and responding accordingly (and ultimately winning)? I just want something to visually see, but if you don't I will understand and will not expect you to go out of your way to search for it.
Again, i say 3gate robo into harass (no need for obs first wp gives same info) while expoing is the way to go.. you have everything you need and 1 minute plus to prepare ~ 2 warpins.. and that's if you lose your wp, if you don't you most likely have more like 2 minutes
i do fine against this now unless i od on the stalkers or do something else retarded..
if you scout a 1 rax cc instead harass with your wp (don't lose it!) build an imo before nex and push the nat as well as dropping the back.. you should be in a great position for the mid game as long as you don't suicide
and obviously if you scout an all in build a bunch of zealots and immos (unless there are no tanks or marauders, in which case just roflstomp)
oh and followup includes cols, stalkers, and whatever counters his build, you should have the gas saved to do whatever you want, drop second gas after nex..
if you stop at 6 probes on gas, 29 on minerals you get approximately 1230m/230g per minute. constant chrono on immortals gives you 55sec/1.5 chronoboost factor = 36 sec/immortal = 1.6 immo/minute which costs (250m+100g)*1.6 = 400/160, leaving 800 min for 8 zeals from 4 warpgates per minute.
your 2 nexus give you 67.5 energy/minute so you can't quite constantly chronoboost immortals, but it's pretty close, especially if you're beginning this production cycle routine with some chrono saved up
your surplus from this production is about 30m, 70g, so you can get the occasional sentry and throw down a 5th gate eventually. however, IF you are building pylons too (and not trading your army with T) then you'll have to build more sentry and pylons.
only if your macro is imperfect or you stop immortal production will you be able to afford stalkers.
My take is to quickly take a quick second gas and cut down on sentry stalker, and get a quick robo for scouting. If you confirm 1-1-1, slap down a stargate and harass / scout with phoenix while massing zeals and as many immortals as you can chrono out.
When the terran tries to move out, use the phoenix to pick off banshee/raven on the way to base, then lift tanks and send in the zealot/immortal. Without the banshee or tank splash dps, guardian shield zealots just don't die to 0/0 non-stim marines. When the phoenix die, your immortals will make quick work of any tanks left.
If you decimate the tech units, you have broken the contain - make sure you use your next phoenix to pick off any reinforcing tank or banshee while you expand, and mop up anything the terran has left. But for god's sake, you need EVERY unit, so don't waste any and don't expand or get anything unncessary early.
If you crack the contain like this, you should do it without terrible losses if he brought no scvs. If he brought lots of scvs you will lose much, much more - but if you win the fight you have auto-won the game.
In the scouting section, you claim that if the gas finishes before rax, he is favoring tech. This is incorrect.. With the standard 12 rax 13 gas, the gas will finish before rax, and this tells you literally nothing about his build.
On August 23 2011 00:32 DaemonX wrote: My take is to quickly take a quick second gas and cut down on sentry stalker, and get a quick robo for scouting. If you confirm 1-1-1, slap down a stargate and harass / scout with phoenix while massing zeals and as many immortals as you can chrono out.
When the terran tries to move out, use the phoenix to pick off banshee/raven on the way to base, then lift tanks and send in the zealot/immortal. Without the banshee or tank splash dps, guardian shield zealots just don't die to 0/0 non-stim marines. When the phoenix die, your immortals will make quick work of any tanks left.
If you decimate the tech units, you have broken the contain - make sure you use your next phoenix to pick off any reinforcing tank or banshee while you expand, and mop up anything the terran has left. But for god's sake, you need EVERY unit, so don't waste any and don't expand or get anything unncessary early.
If you crack the contain like this, you should do it without terrible losses if he brought no scvs. If he brought lots of scvs you will lose much, much more - but if you win the fight you have auto-won the game.
1-1-1 is no scarier than 4-gate was in its day.
Doing a split tech path is the absolute worst possible thing you could do against 1/1/1. You are wasting a minimum of 400 gas on structures and units that don't shoot at anything.
1 gate robo and then waiting for obs scout on his base to decide what to do loses to literally everything. If he went for fast expo, you're critically behind, if he went for 1/1/1, you don't have the resources/production to hold it off, if he did 3 rax your observer won't even get there before he shows up and kills you. 3 gate robo might beat the 3 rax, but it certainly won't beat this allin nor will it beat any kind of expansion opening.
You need to understand - YOU CANNOT BEAT 1/1/1 ON ONE BASE. It is not possible, you must expand. You may hold off the first wave, but the second or third will kill you. Because of mules, every second you and a Terran both sit on one base you are getting further and further behind.
On August 23 2011 01:28 Pokebunny wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but:
In the scouting section, you claim that if the gas finishes before rax, he is favoring tech. This is incorrect.. With the standard 12 rax 13 gas, the gas will finish before rax, and this tells you literally nothing about his build.
Thanks for mentioning - I meant to put "starts gas before rax"
On August 23 2011 00:32 DaemonX wrote: My take is to quickly take a quick second gas and cut down on sentry stalker, and get a quick robo for scouting. If you confirm 1-1-1, slap down a stargate and harass / scout with phoenix while massing zeals and as many immortals as you can chrono out.
When the terran tries to move out, use the phoenix to pick off banshee/raven on the way to base, then lift tanks and send in the zealot/immortal. Without the banshee or tank splash dps, guardian shield zealots just don't die to 0/0 non-stim marines. When the phoenix die, your immortals will make quick work of any tanks left.
If you decimate the tech units, you have broken the contain - make sure you use your next phoenix to pick off any reinforcing tank or banshee while you expand, and mop up anything the terran has left. But for god's sake, you need EVERY unit, so don't waste any and don't expand or get anything unncessary early.
If you crack the contain like this, you should do it without terrible losses if he brought no scvs. If he brought lots of scvs you will lose much, much more - but if you win the fight you have auto-won the game.
1-1-1 is no scarier than 4-gate was in its day.
4-gate was easily stoppable with solid scouting information. In the 1-1-1's you've seen in the past two months, how many tosses are completely caught off guard by the push? Toss players either scout it and prepare for it (still get crushed) or blindly prepare for it with 1 Gate Expo's or 15 Nexus builds. It's an entirely different issue.
Do you have a replay of performing this build, but scouting a 2 rax Bio build instead and responding accordingly (and ultimately winning)? I just want something to visually see, but if you don't I will understand and will not expect you to go out of your way to search for it.
I haven't had much time to ladder recently so I don't have any saved replays of this - my apologies. However, I have transitioned safely out of it when unexpectedly hit by a 2 rax. 1 Stalker + 2 Sentries can easily stop a 2rax from busting your ramp. The main concern is how long they can delay your expo. Sometimes I'll throw down a second gate immediately once scouting a 2 rax, and other times I'll instead try to get out an immortal quickly if they are trying to bunker me etc. An Immortal + 2nd gate allows for some weird pressure timings you can put on the Terran when they are trying to secure their expo, but I haven't experimented with it enough to gauge its effectiveness.
At the end of the day though, 1 gate - FE - 2 more gates is the best way to deal with a 2 rax in my opinion. You can stop the 2 rax with a high %, and turn the tables to put pressure back on your Terran opponent.
On August 22 2011 08:23 s0uljah wrote: One thing i do in every P v T now is to just gas steal every terrans. For 75 minerals, I get to delay the 1/1/1 for a long time (if he still decides to), or I get to play on safely knowing that a 1/1/1 isnt coming.
1-1-1 can definitely still come despite a gas steal.
Lately this has happened to me 2 or 3 times and I was wondering what your answer to it is: I scout early marauder pressure from 1 rax (usually destroy it, it comes with 2 marines and 1 marauder usually). But then after that 1 marauder they transition into a 1-1-1 with banshees/tanks/marines. This confuses me a lot and I don't pump out immortals or build as many units as I do when handling a 1-1-1...
I think it's the correct response when seeing a marauder to try to gain economy rather than army supply, so how do you deal with the lack of scouting in between your first ob and your probe?
FYI: I use a 3gate expand, this could be a problem as my first observer comes significantly later (7-8minutes in).
Ok how about we leave scouting aside for the moment. If you 100% sure the all in is coming, I think the best response is stay on one base and rush for:
- 2 collosi with thermal lance. Zealots out of 3 gates - 4 gate blink: Harassment and kiting marines. May be weak against cloak though.
My experience in mid masters is this:
2 base is only good if the push is delayed. Terran can get to your base as early as 8:45 and even earlier if he doesnt wait for siege. If the terran sees the expansion, he can just push out with unsieged tanks soon after the first banshee is done. Unsieged tanks still have good DPS and if protoss expanded or went pheonix, there wont be enough gateway units to deal with the marines and scvs.
1) Scouting: Look, the most you need to determine is 2 things:
a) Not an marine+scv all-in b) Not a 2rax marauder pressure
Note: Sure gas timings and marine count is very important as the OP said, but in my books, the two things above I believe are ranked 1st to determine.
2) If it is not either a) or b), then go for a Gate-Core-Stalker-Nexus. From here on, it's a Robo, bring gate count to 4 , 2 obs, and you will be set.
3) Determine expansion from Terran at 6:30-7:00. If there is no expansion, then you must cut probes and pump units out immediately because a huge push will come shortly. However, if you scout an expansion, then I tend to drop down my robo bay and start a 2 base timing push.
On August 23 2011 10:03 pezzaperry wrote: Lately this has happened to me 2 or 3 times and I was wondering what your answer to it is: I scout early marauder pressure from 1 rax (usually destroy it, it comes with 2 marines and 1 marauder usually). But then after that 1 marauder they transition into a 1-1-1 with banshees/tanks/marines. This confuses me a lot and I don't pump out immortals or build as many units as I do when handling a 1-1-1...
I think it's the correct response when seeing a marauder to try to gain economy rather than army supply, so how do you deal with the lack of scouting in between your first ob and your probe?
FYI: I use a 3gate expand, this could be a problem as my first observer comes significantly later (7-8minutes in).
While 3 gate expanding in response to marauder is definitely a good move (you have late obs, but their tech is later as well), you definitely need some sort of scouting in between probe and obs. You should be aggressive with a 3 gate expand especially if the terran tries some sort of early pressure, and poke up the ramp with a zealot or something. If you see a low bio count you should know something fishy is going on.
Just thought I'd add my own 2cents worth. Basically I was herpa-derping with stalkers until i read this guide, then the whole 'don't make stalkers' thing clicked, and I started holding it. Easily.
This is only a recent example but here is me going for a 3gate DT expo, then scouting the 1-1-1, then winning.
On August 24 2011 00:13 HazZerK wrote: Just thought I'd add my own 2cents worth. Basically I was herpa-derping with stalkers until i read this guide, then the whole 'don't make stalkers' thing clicked, and I started holding it. Easily.
This is only a recent example but here is me going for a 3gate DT expo, then scouting the 1-1-1, then winning.
It's funny isn't it? Stalkers are so shit vs 1-1-1.
On August 23 2011 10:26 juw wrote: Ok how about we leave scouting aside for the moment. If you 100% sure the all in is coming, I think the best response is stay on one base and rush for:
- 2 collosi with thermal lance. Zealots out of 3 gates - 4 gate blink: Harassment and kiting marines. May be weak against cloak though.
My experience in mid masters is this:
2 base is only good if the push is delayed. Terran can get to your base as early as 8:45 and even earlier if he doesnt wait for siege. If the terran sees the expansion, he can just push out with unsieged tanks soon after the first banshee is done. Unsieged tanks still have good DPS and if protoss expanded or went pheonix, there wont be enough gateway units to deal with the marines and scvs.
This is completely incorrect. Especially about having 2 colossus with Thermal Lance, and 3 pumping gateways when this push comes. Please consult this thread to see why your theories are not viable.
In regards to 4 Gate Blink -- I cover it in my alternative methods section. If you want to open with Blink, you are picking a tech path without any scouting, so yes you will be very weak to cloaked banshees.
probably the easiest to execute strat against the 1/1/1. Nice guide, i like to throw in 1 or 2 lonely zealots that run into the base of the opponent when they are midway of the map and don't leave anything behind except scvs. (even investing in a prism sometimes if the map allows it)
A terran will focus the sentrys first with the banshees, stalkers with the tanks and then start to micro the marines. So other then the guide i use a few immortals in the front so marines will do attack them first and do no damage to the zealots (well aware that if the terran won't focus banshees and tanks will rape the immos, but that means you will most likely win, as the tanks will attack the front zealots next heh).
Can someone outline me a refined version of the 1/1/1 that arrives at 9:30 with a raven? If I have 4 rax, 1 Fact 1 Port, how many units am I expected to have at that particular time? Lately, with my 1-1-1 I have not really payed attention to timing or builds. I just make marines tanks banshees and a single raven.
How many tanks should I have? How many banshees? And most importantly, how many marines?
High diamond/Low Masters, did a 3 gate expand contain, then chronod out immortals and basically just added alot of zealots. He goes all in with all his scvs, I pull 10-15 probes pop guardian and split immortals to target tanks and clean up with minimal losses. Opening really sloppy with supply block, was just not focused I guess haha. Can add to the OP its what your looking for, since I read this guide Ive held it quite well twice.
I wrote a pretty long post but I decided to simply ask some shorter questions before I waste anyone's time with an in-depth post. I'm still learning the complexities of the game so I figure you guys could help.
What are the benefits to getting a robo after only 1 gate or 1 gate expand? Aren't you immediately committing to a 1/1/1 counter the second the robo goes down? I know a fast obs helps but isn't a probe scout for early unit comp then a stalker scout at 5mins for another unit comp scout good enough until the 7:50+ mark?
In relation to the early robo, at what point do you realize that the terran is committed to the 1/1/1 and even if he does a fast tech switch won't be able to apply early pressure until the 9:15 mark? Is this realization before you drop the robo? My current weakness is the timings of things clearly.
I've played around with some builds that yield very similar unit comps to your build at 9:15 but seem to provide more flexibility when not dealing with a 1/1/1 I could be bsing though because I don't understand enough about the scouting of terran and their respective timings.
Essentially the big scouting problem is that you need either a phoenix, hallucination or observer (or an all-in) or you will not be able to tell the difference between a 1/1/1 and rax->gas->marine 1port cloaked banshees. Poking the front with small numbers of units is insufficient because a smart terran will want to show 4 marines in a bunker only, and keep the rest of their units well back from the wall.
Okay, understandable. So, the risk you take getting a fast obs means you can die to super early pressure but ensures you will be ready for anything the terran throws at you after 7 or so minutes. Where as the risk you take delaying the observer is a misread but at least you will make it past the early game? I guess with large rush distances 1 gate robo could hold off most pressure, my issue then is 1/1/1 on maps such as close/air metal and shattered, xelnaga etc. Is it best right now to just allin the terran when at such close positions?
I feel something like HuK style FE on 22 (get stalker before nexus) -> 2 more gates -> robo -> gate gives me a much better hold of the early game while blindly transitioning to the same production facilities and unit comp at 9:15 as QTIP (i have 4 more zealots + a warpin unit but 1 less immortal, second one is at 33% and I have 3 chronoboosts to his 0). The downside is my 7:45 obs.
Blame my naivety but it feels like I can hold anything or at worst case scout a 3rax as he's moving out and the composition at 9:15 does fairly well against a lot of 1 base terran play no?
I was watching Grubbys stream last night and he held a similar build (Marine/tank -> expand) with a 2 gate robo in to expand. I know a lot of you might question why I mention this in the thread since the Terran went for a deviation of the build that includes a CC instead of a Starport but Grubby said he thought he was up against the standard 1-1-1 all in. Anyway what i wanted to point out is that he held it off by beeing aggressive and containing the Terran whilst teching to Colossus.
He opened GW-Robo-GW-Nexus. Out of his first gate he went Stalker-Sentry-Sentry with the Stalker making a quick poke up the ramp. He then proceeded to keep his 3 units outside the Terrans main whilst cb out an Observer and Immortal. When the Immortal was on it's way to meet up his other units he started picking off the supply depot from the lowground using the observer to get vision over the high ground. He could therefor force the Terran to either engage with Marines which is just stupid cuz he could easily FF away half of them and start pick them off with his 1 Stalker 2 Sentries and the Immortal. After that he managed to snipe the Reactor and the second supply depot and the Terran had no wall anymore.
At the same time he added on a Warp Prism and started harssing the mineral line whilst having a proxy pylon at the natural which he could warp in some sentries at to keep the Terran contained and delay the push. Behind all of this he went for Colossus off 4 gate robo and when the Terran managed to break out he allready had 2 Colossus with a 3d on the way. He then engaged him in the middle of the map. He didn't kill him straight up but he saved his Colossus and kept warping in behind and engaging again untill the Terran army was completly wiped out.
Not sure he would of played it out exactly the same aganist a 1-1-1 build but judging by what he was saying he would of done something similar. I have no idea if it would of worked out as well against any fast Banshee or Raven build but it was fun to see someone crush it by abusing the fact that the Terran won't have much firepower early on so he could pressure his front aggressively from the lowground.
The main thing I wanted to point out is if you're gonna open GW-Robo-Nexus as the OP suggest then you can still do the same harass from the lowground with your inital Stalker, 2 Sentries, observer and Immortal. It's a good way to pressure the Terran.
Regarding the build Grubby went for you have to be able to multitask really well (probably only high Masters and above). If you only focus on the harass and don't have the Colossus out when he comes at you you're gonna get crushed.
Just want to point out one last thing. This was close spawn Blackwater Gulch. It might not be viable cross spawn, I'm not sure.
On August 24 2011 20:01 Tekakan wrote: I was watching Grubbys stream last night and he held a similar build (Marine/tank -> expand) with a 2 gate robo in to expand. I know a lot of you might question why I mention this in the thread since the Terran went for a deviation of the build that includes a CC instead of a Starport but Grubby said he thought he was up against the standard 1-1-1 all in. Anyway what i wanted to point out is that he held it off by beeing aggressive and containing the Terran whilst teching to Colossus.
He opened GW-Robo-GW-Nexus. Out of his first gate he went Stalker-Sentry-Sentry with the Stalker making a quick poke up the ramp. He then proceeded to keep his 3 units outside the Terrans main whilst cb out an Observer and Immortal. When the Immortal was on it's way to meet up his other units he started picking off the supply depot from the lowground using the observer to get vision over the high ground. He could therefor force the Terran to either engage with Marines which is just stupid cuz he could easily FF away half of them and start pick them off with his 1 Stalker 2 Sentries and the Immortal. After that he managed to snipe the Reactor and the second supply depot and the Terran had no wall anymore.
At the same time he added on a Warp Prism and started harssing the mineral line whilst having a proxy pylon at the natural which he could warp in some sentries at to keep the Terran contained and delay the push. Behind all of this he went for Colossus off 4 gate robo and when the Terran managed to break out he allready had 2 Colossus with a 3d on the way. He then engaged him in the middle of the map. He didn't kill him straight up but he saved his Colossus and kept warping in behind and engaging again untill the Terran army was completly wiped out.
Not sure he would of played it out exactly the same aganist a 1-1-1 build but judging by what he was saying he would of done something similar. I have no idea if it would of worked out as well against any fast Banshee or Raven build but it was fun to see someone crush it by abusing the fact that the Terran won't have much firepower early on so he could pressure his front aggressively from the lowground.
The main thing I wanted to point out is if you're gonna open GW-Robo-Nexus as the OP suggest then you can still do the same harass from the lowground with your inital Stalker, 2 Sentries, observer and Immortal. It's a good way to pressure the Terran.
Regarding the build Grubby went for you have to be able to multitask really well (probably only high Masters and above). If you only focus on the harass and don't have the Colossus out when he comes at you you're gonna get crushed.
Just want to point out one last thing. This was close spawn Blackwater Gulch. It might not be viable cross spawn, I'm not sure.
Interesting build, but I question its effectiveness in holding a Helion drop? Recently, I've seen Terrans who either make a single Helion for scouting purposes, or go for a 4 Helion drop in your main followed up by a delayed 1-1-1. If they keep their Helions alive, they help in thinning the Zealots during the eventual push. If Grubby truly thought that he was up against a standard 1-1-1, keeping all your units at the enemy's ramp can be quite risky.
On August 24 2011 20:01 Tekakan wrote: I was watching Grubbys stream last night and he held a similar build (Marine/tank -> expand) with a 2 gate robo in to expand. I know a lot of you might question why I mention this in the thread since the Terran went for a deviation of the build that includes a CC instead of a Starport but Grubby said he thought he was up against the standard 1-1-1 all in. Anyway what i wanted to point out is that he held it off by beeing aggressive and containing the Terran whilst teching to Colossus.
He opened GW-Robo-GW-Nexus. Out of his first gate he went Stalker-Sentry-Sentry with the Stalker making a quick poke up the ramp. He then proceeded to keep his 3 units outside the Terrans main whilst cb out an Observer and Immortal. When the Immortal was on it's way to meet up his other units he started picking off the supply depot from the lowground using the observer to get vision over the high ground. He could therefor force the Terran to either engage with Marines which is just stupid cuz he could easily FF away half of them and start pick them off with his 1 Stalker 2 Sentries and the Immortal. After that he managed to snipe the Reactor and the second supply depot and the Terran had no wall anymore.
At the same time he added on a Warp Prism and started harssing the mineral line whilst having a proxy pylon at the natural which he could warp in some sentries at to keep the Terran contained and delay the push. Behind all of this he went for Colossus off 4 gate robo and when the Terran managed to break out he allready had 2 Colossus with a 3d on the way. He then engaged him in the middle of the map. He didn't kill him straight up but he saved his Colossus and kept warping in behind and engaging again untill the Terran army was completly wiped out.
Not sure he would of played it out exactly the same aganist a 1-1-1 build but judging by what he was saying he would of done something similar. I have no idea if it would of worked out as well against any fast Banshee or Raven build but it was fun to see someone crush it by abusing the fact that the Terran won't have much firepower early on so he could pressure his front aggressively from the lowground.
The main thing I wanted to point out is if you're gonna open GW-Robo-Nexus as the OP suggest then you can still do the same harass from the lowground with your inital Stalker, 2 Sentries, observer and Immortal. It's a good way to pressure the Terran.
Regarding the build Grubby went for you have to be able to multitask really well (probably only high Masters and above). If you only focus on the harass and don't have the Colossus out when he comes at you you're gonna get crushed.
Just want to point out one last thing. This was close spawn Blackwater Gulch. It might not be viable cross spawn, I'm not sure.
Interesting build, but I question its effectiveness in holding a Helion drop? Recently, I've seen Terrans who either make a single Helion for scouting purposes, or go for a 4 Helion drop in your main followed up by a delayed 1-1-1. If they keep their Helions alive, they help in thinning the Zealots during the eventual push. If Grubby truly thought that he was up against a standard 1-1-1, keeping all your units at the enemy's ramp can be quite risky.
I think he only had a couple of sentries and a Stalker at the front whilst warping in Zealots at home. I also know that he scouted the CC a bit later on so that might of affected his decision to stay at the front for so long (untill it was impossible due to tank fire). It's hard to say anything more about it since I have no replay to look back at.
would it be smart to "hide" your immortals outside your base so when he scans he doesn't see them, and when the tanks siege behind the marines the immortals will do much more damage to the tanks while the zealots/sentries own the marines?
On August 25 2011 06:22 RespectedPuddle wrote: would it be smart to "hide" your immortals outside your base so when he scans he doesn't see them, and when the tanks siege behind the marines the immortals will do much more damage to the tanks while the zealots/sentries own the marines?
I'm not sure how effective hiding your immortals from a scan is... regardless of whether or not you have immortals, they are going to 1-1-1 you anyway. I'm just not sure if hiding them gives you any special advantage. Putting your immortals to the side and executing a flank can greatly increase your chances of busting the Terran's contain though -- so yes I like your idea about Zealots / Sentries vs Marines + Immortal vs Tank.
On August 24 2011 20:01 Tekakan wrote: I was watching Grubbys stream last night and he held a similar build (Marine/tank -> expand) with a 2 gate robo in to expand. I know a lot of you might question why I mention this in the thread since the Terran went for a deviation of the build that includes a CC instead of a Starport but Grubby said he thought he was up against the standard 1-1-1 all in. Anyway what i wanted to point out is that he held it off by beeing aggressive and containing the Terran whilst teching to Colossus.
He opened GW-Robo-GW-Nexus. Out of his first gate he went Stalker-Sentry-Sentry with the Stalker making a quick poke up the ramp. He then proceeded to keep his 3 units outside the Terrans main whilst cb out an Observer and Immortal. When the Immortal was on it's way to meet up his other units he started picking off the supply depot from the lowground using the observer to get vision over the high ground. He could therefor force the Terran to either engage with Marines which is just stupid cuz he could easily FF away half of them and start pick them off with his 1 Stalker 2 Sentries and the Immortal. After that he managed to snipe the Reactor and the second supply depot and the Terran had no wall anymore.
At the same time he added on a Warp Prism and started harssing the mineral line whilst having a proxy pylon at the natural which he could warp in some sentries at to keep the Terran contained and delay the push. Behind all of this he went for Colossus off 4 gate robo and when the Terran managed to break out he allready had 2 Colossus with a 3d on the way. He then engaged him in the middle of the map. He didn't kill him straight up but he saved his Colossus and kept warping in behind and engaging again untill the Terran army was completly wiped out.
Not sure he would of played it out exactly the same aganist a 1-1-1 build but judging by what he was saying he would of done something similar. I have no idea if it would of worked out as well against any fast Banshee or Raven build but it was fun to see someone crush it by abusing the fact that the Terran won't have much firepower early on so he could pressure his front aggressively from the lowground.
The main thing I wanted to point out is if you're gonna open GW-Robo-Nexus as the OP suggest then you can still do the same harass from the lowground with your inital Stalker, 2 Sentries, observer and Immortal. It's a good way to pressure the Terran.
Regarding the build Grubby went for you have to be able to multitask really well (probably only high Masters and above). If you only focus on the harass and don't have the Colossus out when he comes at you you're gonna get crushed.
Just want to point out one last thing. This was close spawn Blackwater Gulch. It might not be viable cross spawn, I'm not sure.
Interesting build, but I question its effectiveness in holding a Helion drop? Recently, I've seen Terrans who either make a single Helion for scouting purposes, or go for a 4 Helion drop in your main followed up by a delayed 1-1-1. If they keep their Helions alive, they help in thinning the Zealots during the eventual push. If Grubby truly thought that he was up against a standard 1-1-1, keeping all your units at the enemy's ramp can be quite risky.
I think he only had a couple of sentries and a Stalker at the front whilst worping in Zealots at home. I also know that he scouted the CC a bit later on so that might of affected his decision to stay at the front for so long (untill it was impossible due to tank fire). It's hard to say anything more about it since I have no replay to look back at.
Yeah too bad we don't know for sure. I think I'm just really paranoid of Helions right now. lol.
Hey QTIP and other toss stratmeisters, what do you think of the 1.4 PTR patch notes? Do you think the immortal range upgrade/rax build time nerf/guardian shield vs siege mode improvment will make much of a difference to the 1-1-1/3-1-1 all-in if implemented?
Really well written guide, helped me a lot against the dreaded 1/1/1 build. I did have one question though, what do you guys do when you scout a lot more banshees than normal? Do I just expect a slightly later push with more banshee and continue as normal or should I switch to phoenix to respond to the unusual number of banshees?
On August 25 2011 16:41 RabidSeagull wrote: Really well written guide, helped me a lot against the dreaded 1/1/1 build. I did have one question though, what do you guys do when you scout a lot more banshees than normal? Do I just expect a slightly later push with more banshee and continue as normal or should I switch to phoenix to respond to the unusual number of banshees?
Yes phoenix is necessary against large number of banshees. This could come from 2 port banshees, or just a delayed push with 4+ banshees. Even if you don't scout it until you see the army leaving his base, it's still not too late to throw up the stargate. I have been in situations where after the battle I have 8 zealots left but he has 3 banshees with another 1 coming. My stargate just finishes as the battle is over but I'm able to chrono out a phoenix to save my base.
On August 25 2011 15:40 tomatriedes wrote: Hey QTIP and other toss stratmeisters, what do you think of the 1.4 PTR patch notes? Do you think the immortal range upgrade/rax build time nerf/guardian shield vs siege mode improvment will make much of a difference to the 1-1-1/3-1-1 all-in if implemented?
Rax build time won't make much of a difference. Immortal range will certainly help immortals target tanks, but it's not going to make or break anything.
What guardian shield vs siege mode improvement are you talking about?
I'd been *accidentally* stumbling upon the 4 gates + robo difference w/ probe cuts as the most high success rate I've ever had against the scv/marine/tank/banshee(+raven) 1base allin. This was primarily done off a kcdc 1gas 1gate expand zealot-stalker-stalker but I see how your preferred open could have the edge in the line of competing build orders.
Again I say, stalkers are BAD to mass against this EVEN IF HE HAS 2 Banshees all over. As few stalkers as possible, all chronos on production buildings, don't get supply capped, cut probes. You did a very good job of detailing the important steps OP! Like the write-up keep helping Toss overcome all the weird stuff Terran throws at us!
I mean this post was mostly old hat to me, but who knows, next Terran allin I might hit upon the 10 ways to NOT beat it before reading another post by you =P
***Edit for Anihc***
From battle.net PTR thread retrieved 8/25/2011 Bug Fixes ~//~ * Protoss ~//~ Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack.
I don't exactly know what was incorrect about its damage reduction before but it's listed in there as a bug fix.
Some minor additions, I've found useful regarding BO, chrono-boost-usage and engagement
Once you spot their 111 with zealot/stalker-poke (I really started doing it always when I'm not sure if 111 will come) - start saving chrono-boost! Only spend chrono-boost on the robotics and try to never have the robotics produce "un-chronoed". Throw down two more additional gateways (to make it 5) as soon as you can - you only need 4 stalkers at that point (2 for each mineral line to be 100% safe vs banshees). Having 5 warpgates as early as possible instead of 3 is much more important than having constant production out of the already existing warpgates. You don't need many zealots at this point anyways.
Engagement: you have to force the first engagement at a good distance away from your natural. I found that vs good players you can't usually kill them at this point. The following is important: try to focus all your attention on killing the tanks; now when your stuff starts dying and things are starting to look not so good: warp in from all 5 warpgates and chrono-boost all of them - if you haven't wasted too much chrono-boosts before, the 2 nexi should provide enough. Wait for the second round of warp-ins, pull ALL your probes from the natural and go attack with what should be one immortal (produced/rallied while the first fight occured) 10 warpgate-units (composition depends on how many banshees they had or are still alive) and ~14-16 probes. If you managed to kill "some" tanks in the first engagement, this will make their "follow-up-push" much weaker. Which is why NOW the probes are really starting to be effective. If you pull the probes when they have all tanks sieged up, then they...just die in one blast. If you pull the probes vs the follow-up after the first engagement, then some/most of them "should" reach the marines.
If I get a good game where neither I nor my opponent screws up I'll post it...
On August 25 2011 15:40 tomatriedes wrote: Hey QTIP and other toss stratmeisters, what do you think of the 1.4 PTR patch notes? Do you think the immortal range upgrade/rax build time nerf/guardian shield vs siege mode improvment will make much of a difference to the 1-1-1/3-1-1 all-in if implemented?
Rax build time won't make much of a difference. Immortal range will certainly help immortals target tanks, but it's not going to make or break anything.
What guardian shield vs siege mode improvement are you talking about?
This:
Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack.
Edit- I guess they never explicitly said it's an improvement but I imagine it will be.
On August 25 2011 17:27 Kishin2 wrote: Is getting hallucination to soak up damage and/or burning PDD a viable way to stop the 1-1-1?
You can burn the PDD quicker, but a Raven will prevent your Hallu from soaking up damage. Not very viable unfortunately, unless you are 100% sure a Raven is not present.
On August 25 2011 15:40 tomatriedes wrote: Hey QTIP and other toss stratmeisters, what do you think of the 1.4 PTR patch notes? Do you think the immortal range upgrade/rax build time nerf/guardian shield vs siege mode improvment will make much of a difference to the 1-1-1/3-1-1 all-in if implemented?
Rax build time won't make much of a difference. Immortal range will certainly help immortals target tanks, but it's not going to make or break anything.
What guardian shield vs siege mode improvement are you talking about?
Immortal range upgrade will definitely be of help against the 1-1-1 and will generally help them be "less retarded" in all situations. However, I agree that it's not going to drastically change anything. I was surprised to hear that Guardian Shield wasn't functioning properly vs Tank Splash, but of course, anything that helps your units live longer vs Terran Army DPS will be beneficial in breaking the 1-1-1.
I don't see Rax build time being too much of a factor. I guess on large maps like Tal'Darim / Antiga, the likelihood of getting more information before a Marine pops out to deny scouting increases? I'm not entirely sure how much this will help. Again - it's not much of a game changer.
On August 25 2011 16:41 RabidSeagull wrote: Really well written guide, helped me a lot against the dreaded 1/1/1 build. I did have one question though, what do you guys do when you scout a lot more banshees than normal? Do I just expect a slightly later push with more banshee and continue as normal or should I switch to phoenix to respond to the unusual number of banshees?
Yes - once banshee numbers get high, Stalkers do much worse vs. them. Phoenix are the appropriate response against crazy shit like 2 port banshee.
Just had a game where I scouted a researching techlab on the starport, so I added 2 more stalker and obs. But I didn't check all his base to see his 2nd port and I thought he was going for bio follow-up. Instead he rolled me with banshees and raven. I guess at that point something like phoenix and chargelots with forge upgrades should work pretty well.
Hmmmm I'm not sure if this is the right thread or not but how should I deal with a 1/1/1 push that comes after they take their expansion? Should I be trying to get some collosi out if the attack is delayed by that much or should i still be going 4gimmo?
Hey quick question. Say i know from the start that this is coming. Say ive meta gamed or something or im just practicing. Hes not expoing, hes just flat out pushing.
Should this be easy to hold with 1 base play? Apart from 3 gate SG which facerolls it, what are the options?
On August 28 2011 11:20 Squigly wrote: Hey quick question. Say i know from the start that this is coming. Say ive meta gamed or something or im just practicing. Hes not expoing, hes just flat out pushing.
Should this be easy to hold with 1 base play? Apart from 3 gate SG which facerolls it, what are the options?
On August 28 2011 11:20 Squigly wrote: Hey quick question. Say i know from the start that this is coming. Say ive meta gamed or something or im just practicing. Hes not expoing, hes just flat out pushing.
Should this be easy to hold with 1 base play? Apart from 3 gate SG which facerolls it, what are the options?
On August 28 2011 11:20 Squigly wrote: Hey quick question. Say i know from the start that this is coming. Say ive meta gamed or something or im just practicing. Hes not expoing, hes just flat out pushing.
Should this be easy to hold with 1 base play? Apart from 3 gate SG which facerolls it, what are the options?
Y u no 3 gate SG?
I dont want to.
If you know from the start this is coming, you would be hurting yourself to not go 3 Gate Stargate. 4 gate can work if you do it properly and attack in a good area. 3 gate robo would probably do alright but I havent really seen it. Other than that I just say do yourself a favour and make a void ray.
On August 28 2011 11:20 Squigly wrote: Hey quick question. Say i know from the start that this is coming. Say ive meta gamed or something or im just practicing. Hes not expoing, hes just flat out pushing.
Should this be easy to hold with 1 base play? Apart from 3 gate SG which facerolls it, what are the options?
Y u no 3 gate SG?
I dont want to.
If you know from the start this is coming, you would be hurting yourself to not go 3 Gate Stargate. 4 gate can work if you do it properly and attack in a good area. 3 gate robo would probably do alright but I havent really seen it. Other than that I just say do yourself a favour and make a void ray.
Okay i really want to beat it with a robo but since voids roll it so hard......
On August 26 2011 03:49 QTIP. wrote: Immortal range upgrade will definitely be of help against the 1-1-1 and will generally help them be "less retarded" in all situations. However, I agree that it's not going to drastically change anything. I was surprised to hear that Guardian Shield wasn't functioning properly vs Tank Splash, but of course, anything that helps your units live longer vs Terran Army DPS will be beneficial in breaking the 1-1-1.
I don't see Rax build time being too much of a factor. I guess on large maps like Tal'Darim / Antiga, the likelihood of getting more information before a Marine pops out to deny scouting increases? I'm not entirely sure how much this will help. Again - it's not much of a game changer.
Immortal range upgrade will change a lot, actually. Most people are happy that they now won't get stuck behind stalkers, but what they're missing is they now won't get stuck in front of the stalkers. They line up with the stalkers now which means it's trivial to micro them out if the Terran tries to focus them, especially with 5 range marines.
For those tosses who feel they need to squeeze out the absolute maximum amount of units in a short window of time - have you tried warping in, changing to normal gateway, producing a unit then swapping it back to warp gate and warping in another?
It'll give you a boost of units and it actually nets you a larger amount aswell because warp cools down while you're creating units from a normal gateway. Unless they changed the warpgate->gateway animation to be >20 seconds, I'm pretty sure you gain a net increase in unit count microing your production like that.
On August 28 2011 15:21 iko wrote: For those tosses who feel they need to squeeze out the absolute maximum amount of units in a short window of time - have you tried warping in, changing to normal gateway, producing a unit then swapping it back to warp gate and warping in another?
It'll give you a boost of units and it actually nets you a larger amount aswell because warp cools down while you're creating units from a normal gateway. Unless they changed the warpgate->gateway animation to be >20 seconds, I'm pretty sure you gain a net increase in unit count microing your production like that.
This does not work for zealots, which I think is the unit most people are spamming. Zealots are 28 second cooldown with WG and 38 seconds to build with gateways. Warping in three zealots with WG takes 56 seconds, doing it by switching takes 58 seconds. (warpin, 10 second transition, 38 second build time, 10 second transition, warpin) With stalkers the benefit is minimal, it's 64 seconds for 3 stalkers from a warpgate but 62 seconds while switching. Only sentries offer any kind of bonus here, 64 seconds for straight WG to get 3 out while you can do it in 57 seconds via switching.
Just saw some sick play at MLG, and thought Kiwikaki's build for going against 1/1/1 is really effective, it was just executed poorly (really poor engagement).
If he spots the gas from Terran (sign of possible 1/1/1), he goes 1gate-robo-FE. (no first zealot). Gets the observer out, checks for 1/1/1. if 1/1/1 he cancels expansion, drops down 3 gateways, and a stargate. has the stargate pumping out a couple of phoenix, and the warpgates constantly pumping out zealots and small number of sentries, and has an immortal or 2 when engagement happens.
Would definitely suggest a lot of protoss players check out the 3rd game, of Kiwikaki vs Puma in MLG Raleigh, I'm sure you'll learn a lot.
(Yes kiwi lost, but i think is build is very very viable against 1/1/1).
There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ??
Just saw some sick play at MLG, and thought Kiwikaki's build for going against 1/1/1 is really effective, it was just executed poorly (really poor engagement).
If he spots the gas from Terran (sign of possible 1/1/1), he goes 1gate-robo-FE. (no first zealot). Gets the observer out, checks for 1/1/1. if 1/1/1 he cancels expansion, drops down 3 gateways, and a stargate. has the stargate pumping out a couple of phoenix, and the warpgates constantly pumping out zealots and small number of sentries, and has an immortal or 2 when engagement happens.
Would definitely suggest a lot of protoss players check out the 3rd game, of Kiwikaki vs Puma in MLG Raleigh, I'm sure you'll learn a lot.
(Yes kiwi lost, but i think is build is very very viable against 1/1/1).
I dont see how he could have engaged much better other than force fielding further back and maybe lifting the tanks, the marines just shredded everything
Just saw some sick play at MLG, and thought Kiwikaki's build for going against 1/1/1 is really effective, it was just executed poorly (really poor engagement).
If he spots the gas from Terran (sign of possible 1/1/1), he goes 1gate-robo-FE. (no first zealot). Gets the observer out, checks for 1/1/1. if 1/1/1 he cancels expansion, drops down 3 gateways, and a stargate. has the stargate pumping out a couple of phoenix, and the warpgates constantly pumping out zealots and small number of sentries, and has an immortal or 2 when engagement happens.
Would definitely suggest a lot of protoss players check out the 3rd game, of Kiwikaki vs Puma in MLG Raleigh, I'm sure you'll learn a lot.
(Yes kiwi lost, but i think is build is very very viable against 1/1/1).
I dont see how he could have engaged much better other than force fielding further back and maybe lifting the tanks, the marines just shredded everything
I saw that too. He engaged waaay too soon. His eco was way higher and they were no where near his base. He was delaying really well, getting more army etc but then attacked at a silly time. If hedve waited a couple minutes, as he oculd have, hedve done way better.
Obviously i dont know if hedve won, but i expect so. Rule of thumb, if you have better eco and worse army, dont attack :/
If I had to guess though id defeinately say he was holding until the silly enagemanent. He oculdve easily had more units.
Just spitballing here, but it seems to me like you can lock the terran into his base indefinitely with infinite force fields. If you get a few phoeneix on top of that the terran can't even ferry out.
On August 29 2011 01:42 imbecile wrote: Just spitballing here, but it seems to me like you can lock the terran into his base indefinitely with infinite force fields. If you get a few phoeneix on top of that the terran can't even ferry out.
one scan and 1 or 2 seiged tanks and gg ur contain. Ive tried it too, but usually they dont push out till 2 tanks anyway so it really doesnt slow them down that much
On August 29 2011 01:42 imbecile wrote: Just spitballing here, but it seems to me like you can lock the terran into his base indefinitely with infinite force fields. If you get a few phoeneix on top of that the terran can't even ferry out.
one scan and 1 or 2 seiged tanks and gg ur contain. Ive tried it too, but usually they dont push out till 2 tanks anyway so it really doesnt slow them down that much
Yep, can be tricky to control. But I'd say easier than controlling the fight once it is out of the base.
Spreading the sentries out, keep them out of range and only ever moving one into range for the cast ... it's tedious, but it should be doable.
And the fact that he will only move out late means that you can build up a lot of energy.
well banshees are out too so they can come out and snipe sentries or wreak havoc on your base. They may even just try to draw ur units within tank fire and if u dont follow the banshee can freely do tons of damage. its a mess, i like the idea but its really hard to pull off.
maybe a warp prism with a few sentries could work just drop one put down a ff and pick him back up, this way they are safe from banshees and tanks so just dont let any marines out. eventually id imagine this would force a viking which just run and drop lol if u see one
pretty sure the FF distance is < the tank seige range so you will lose alot of sentries trying to ff so this whole plan may just be a flop
On August 29 2011 00:13 Mairou wrote: There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ??
No, you didn't try everything. If you cut probes at the right time you are half way through to holding it (watch Huk vs Tri master) Another half is flanking.
Hmm interesting, the way CombatEx taught us (jokes aside please) is to play it out like BW, where you build a certain amount of Stalkers (Dragoons), then Zealots to tank. Engage in the middle of the map while losing only Zealots, warp in more Zealots and engaging again while keeping Stalkers alive.
On August 29 2011 02:36 drybones wrote: well banshees are out too so they can come out and snipe sentries or wreak havoc on your base. They may even just try to draw ur units within tank fire and if u dont follow the banshee can freely do tons of damage. its a mess, i like the idea but its really hard to pull off.
maybe a warp prism with a few sentries could work just drop one put down a ff and pick him back up, this way they are safe from banshees and tanks so just dont let any marines out. eventually id imagine this would force a viking which just run and drop lol if u see one
pretty sure the FF distance is < the tank seige range so you will lose alot of sentries trying to ff so this whole plan may just be a flop
That's what the phoenix if for. Seriously, the build is almost exactly what Kiwikaki did against Puma, just that you keep the sentries at his base and keep anything from escaping by air with phoenix. And you keep the nexus.
Specifically game 3 (starts at 29:40). The 1-1-1 defense is based on immortals and warp-prism micro to put them in range to shut down the tanks. This can only get better if the PTR 1.4 patch goes live.
What do you people think, is this doable as a standard counter? I think it's a great idea, maybe even doable after a 1gate FE or 1gate 1 robo expo if the timings are right.
If i see a bunker or a fast 2 gas with my scouting probe/probes, i instantly assume 1-1-1 (because its the metagame) and just 1gate expand. By the time he hits, you will be on 4gates and a robo with an extremely powerful economy and a better developed army because you have been on 2 bases for a bit. easy win with immortal zealot stalker.
Alternativly you can get phoenix charglot which is a good counter to the composition (again, 1 gate expandin)
On August 28 2011 18:22 wei2coolman wrote: ... (Yes kiwi lost, but i think is build is very very viable against 1/1/1).
LOL
Using QTIPs version I win ~40% of the games....better than my usual 0%. I was hoping MLG would show me a build that absolutely crushes it, but it came up short. Oh well.
On August 28 2011 18:22 wei2coolman wrote: ... (Yes kiwi lost, but i think is build is very very viable against 1/1/1).
LOL
Using QTIPs version I win ~40% of the games....better than my usual 0%. I was hoping MLG would show me a build that absolutely crushes it, but it came up short. Oh well.
Sjow tried to 1-1-1 and got raped haaaard by stalker pressure.
On August 28 2011 18:22 wei2coolman wrote: ... (Yes kiwi lost, but i think is build is very very viable against 1/1/1).
LOL
Using QTIPs version I win ~40% of the games....better than my usual 0%. I was hoping MLG would show me a build that absolutely crushes it, but it came up short. Oh well.
Sjow tried to 1-1-1 and got raped haaaard by stalker pressure.
in all matches on MLG, terrans have been losing so many games to protoss cuz they didnt made bunkers. thats exactly how sjow fucked up
proper terrans make a bunker at 4 min and should be safe against early pressure
Id say, make sure you get your zealot + immortal sandwiching at the back, so they can acces the tanks , forcefields behind the marines so they cant run away. im mid masters and 90% of the time crush it this way. 1 gate expo then add robo then 2 gates when you scout it add 2 extra gate so you can reinforce fast enough since your expo will kick in by the time the push arrives 8-9 mins.. all on 2 gas (2nd gass @ ~30 supply) only get max 4 stalkers rest zealot sentry immortal (only 2 or so because they cost to much money)
At diamond level I don't often see a flawless 1-1-1 hit me, but I have at least brought my chances to 50% with this: 1 gate FE, robo, add 2 gates, obs scout, if you scout no CC going up then stop at 26-30 probes (depending on position) with 2 geysers. Add 2 more gates (to 5) when you can afford with constant production. Constant chrono on immortals, make CERTAIN to look at starport tech lab for cloak researching, if no cloak then 3-4 stalkers to poke up the front to try and slow the push, without taking any hp damage. Composition largely zealots, 3-4 sentries and immortals. Engage his army in the most open area possible and only when UNSEIGED, guardian shield vital, care with FFs not to prevent your units from attacking (in fact, I think you really only need to do FFs if you see him stutter stepping his marines as there is no stim to make it effective). If you make no mistakes, you will most likely completely trade armies, and this is when you need to warp in stalkers to kill the banshees. If you do a trade, get an obs into his base. If a CC is building, take a robo bay and 2 more geysers and resume probes. If a second push is preparing, squeeze in a few more probes and maybe a geyser, and continue with the same composition.
On August 29 2011 11:11 LtLolburger wrote: At diamond level I don't often see a flawless 1-1-1 hit me, but I have at least brought my chances to 50% with this: 1 gate FE, robo, add 2 gates, obs scout, if you scout no CC going up then stop at 26-30 probes (depending on position) with 2 geysers. Add 2 more gates (to 5) when you can afford with constant production. Constant chrono on immortals, make CERTAIN to look at starport tech lab for cloak researching, if no cloak then 3-4 stalkers to poke up the front to try and slow the push, without taking any hp damage. Composition largely zealots, 3-4 sentries and immortals. Engage his army in the most open area possible and only when UNSEIGED, guardian shield vital, care with FFs not to prevent your units from attacking (in fact, I think you really only need to do FFs if you see him stutter stepping his marines as there is no stim to make it effective). If you make no mistakes, you will most likely completely trade armies, and this is when you need to warp in stalkers to kill the banshees. If you do a trade, get an obs into his base. If a CC is building, take a robo bay and 2 more geysers and resume probes. If a second push is preparing, squeeze in a few more probes and maybe a geyser, and continue with the same composition.
Lol - yes, this is pretty much what I cover in my guide.
On August 28 2011 11:20 Squigly wrote: Hey quick question. Say i know from the start that this is coming. Say ive meta gamed or something or im just practicing. Hes not expoing, hes just flat out pushing.
Should this be easy to hold with 1 base play? Apart from 3 gate SG which facerolls it, what are the options?
Y u no 3 gate SG?
3 Gate SG is done blindly - and is quite all-in. Please see InControl vs Trimaster if you want to see how "safe" 3 Gate SG all-in is against 1-1-1.
The whole point of this guide is to play standard, deal with the all-in, and be substantially ahead.
On August 29 2011 00:13 Mairou wrote: There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ??
There are counters, the only problem is that none of them are perfectly reliable. This guide also relies on some luck factors. You never have a unit composition at 8:30-10:00 that can move into the Terran army and crush it. You are constantly relying on new warp-ins to provide the units needed to clean up. Also, as I'm sure you've seen from the 1-1-1 Korean Discussion Thread, there is a coin flip situation when it comes to your 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus vs. a 2-Rax build.
There is no reliable counter that looks perfectly solid.
On August 29 2011 00:13 Mairou wrote: There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ??
There are counters, the only problem is that none of them are perfectly reliable. This guide also relies on some luck factors. You never have a unit composition at 8:30-10:00 that can move into the Terran army and crush it. You are constantly relying on new warp-ins to provide the units needed to clean up. Also, as I'm sure you've seen from the 1-1-1 Korean Discussion Thread, there is a coin flip situation when it comes to your 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus vs. a 2-Rax build.
There is no reliable counter that looks perfectly solid.
True, but there is no coinflip with 15 nexus vs. 2 rax. 15 nexus dies. Hard.
Pretty much feel you have to 1g fe to hold this. I am top masters and i would say that pvt is my best match up, i do wat the op's guide says, make zealot stalker sentry and pump out immortals. I generally make 2 obs 1 for his base 1 for mine, maintain about a +2 stalker count to banshee (if he has 2 banshees ill have 4 stalkers if he has 3 ill have 5) control group 1 for stalkers. Then control group 2 for zealots and sentries. Control 3 for immortals. Have good spread, delay as much as possible by forcing early seige (by either engaging early or ffing, terran cant really engage your army without seiging), and DONOT let the tanks seige where he can shel at any crucial structures. From that point keep warping units chrono gates and robo for immortals.
Position stalkers, zealotsandsentries, and immortals so that u create a good arc and usually ill wait until the last possible moment to send in zealots with guardian and the immortals (positioned to be as close to tanks as possible). Then forcefield so your zealots hit the marines and focus fire immortals on tanks. Focus fire banshee with stalkers and sentries. Alot of waiting until the last moment is seeing what units he has and what i have and judging when is the right moment or last possible moment to engage.
But i guess the biggest problem is that you need to 1 gate fe which is countered by a simple 3 rax or a 2rax with scvs. 2 rax can be held with 1 rax fe but its very tricky and a bit luck based. If he pulled enough scvs he can start bunkering at ur expo and thats a pain to deal with.
I also do a 1g1robo expo sometimes if im not sure but i sense that the terran is up to something fishy. If 1grobo could hold off 2 rax safely then i would be doing it every tvp. Maybe theres a way to make it work with the immortal range buff.
On August 29 2011 00:13 Mairou wrote: There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ??
There are counters, the only problem is that none of them are perfectly reliable. This guide also relies on some luck factors. You never have a unit composition at 8:30-10:00 that can move into the Terran army and crush it. You are constantly relying on new warp-ins to provide the units needed to clean up. Also, as I'm sure you've seen from the 1-1-1 Korean Discussion Thread, there is a coin flip situation when it comes to your 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus vs. a 2-Rax build.
There is no reliable counter that looks perfectly solid.
True, but there is no coinflip with 15 nexus vs. 2 rax. 15 nexus dies. Hard.
Sorry - I should have clarified.
The coinflip is where:
To defeat 1-1-1 you must a) 15 Nexus b) 1 Gate FE
But if you don't know what's coming and assume 1-1-1 incorrectly, you die to a 2-rax. So when you are in the dark, you either blindly pick to counter 1-1-1, or a safe opening that will not do as well.
Basically, lack of enough scouting information and incorrectly expecting 1-1-1 can get you killed by 2-rax when executing a 15 Nexus / 1 Gate FE.
Hence the small luck factor.
I found that some Terrans I play get a bunker to suggest a tech build, but come with a normal 2-rax. (Stolen from Taeja vs MC I think). There is virtually no way to scout the difference here for a Protoss player, unless the Terran is dumb enough to put a marauder in the bunker. I've lost 3-4 games like this -- where everything I see suggests 1-1-1 opening, then a 2-rax hits.
I've had some moderate success with this build, although usually when I win it's because the Terran made a mistake or was using an odd variation. Like say I'll face the regular variation on Shattered and the Terran lets me engage his army unsieged, or I played a Thor variation on Shakuras, it delayed his push by a good minute and a half and I just CRUSHED him when he tried to push.
On August 29 2011 00:13 Mairou wrote: There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ??
There are counters, the only problem is that none of them are perfectly reliable. This guide also relies on some luck factors. You never have a unit composition at 8:30-10:00 that can move into the Terran army and crush it. You are constantly relying on new warp-ins to provide the units needed to clean up. Also, as I'm sure you've seen from the 1-1-1 Korean Discussion Thread, there is a coin flip situation when it comes to your 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus vs. a 2-Rax build.
There is no reliable counter that looks perfectly solid.
True, but there is no coinflip with 15 nexus vs. 2 rax. 15 nexus dies. Hard.
Sorry - I should have clarified.
The coinflip is where:
To defeat 1-1-1 you must a) 15 Nexus b) 1 Gate FE
But if you don't know what's coming and assume 1-1-1 incorrectly, you die to a 2-rax. So when you are in the dark, you either blindly pick to counter 1-1-1, or a safe opening that will not do as well.
Basically, lack of enough scouting information and incorrectly expecting 1-1-1 can get you killed by 2-rax when executing a 15 Nexus / 1 Gate FE.
Hence the small luck factor.
I found that some Terrans I play get a bunker to suggest a tech build, but come with a normal 2-rax. (Stolen from Taeja vs MC I think). There is virtually no way to scout the difference here for a Protoss player, unless the Terran is dumb enough to put a marauder in the bunker. I've lost 3-4 games like this -- where everything I see suggests 1-1-1 opening, then a 2-rax hits.
Aye, Puma also has the 1 rax reactor expand which gets a bunker at the top of the ramp in time for the stalker poke. Pure marines, gas taken, bunker + walloff - 1/1/1 right? NO, 1 rax expand in your face. Watching Socke go 1 gate expand into robo into cut probes into 4 gates with no additional tech (which is exactly what this guide says to do yay) was tough to watch. He even mentioned in the interview he was blind countering 1/1/1 after seeing the bunker.
So, a bunker and marines at the top of the ramp means we are facing heavy tech, pressure or expand. Hooray!!! We now no longer have to worry about cc first, we can scout that!
Not being able to scout terran is the whole problem with them now at the moment. You can't reliably get information before you have observers at which point you are already behind against a few builds. Large maps are alright as 1 gate FE is completely safe there but smaller maps T just has the advantage of being able to do a random build and get lucky wins sometimes, if P guesses correctly what T is doing T is usually not that far behind anyways.
On August 29 2011 00:13 Mairou wrote: There is no counter to this build... srsly ive tried everything. Im master level protoss and i always lose to this build. Its clearly OP. In GSL nobody can even hold this buid eitheir so how the fuck do you even defend against it ??
There are counters, the only problem is that none of them are perfectly reliable. This guide also relies on some luck factors. You never have a unit composition at 8:30-10:00 that can move into the Terran army and crush it. You are constantly relying on new warp-ins to provide the units needed to clean up. Also, as I'm sure you've seen from the 1-1-1 Korean Discussion Thread, there is a coin flip situation when it comes to your 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus vs. a 2-Rax build.
There is no reliable counter that looks perfectly solid.
True, but there is no coinflip with 15 nexus vs. 2 rax. 15 nexus dies. Hard.
Sorry - I should have clarified.
The coinflip is where:
To defeat 1-1-1 you must a) 15 Nexus b) 1 Gate FE
But if you don't know what's coming and assume 1-1-1 incorrectly, you die to a 2-rax. So when you are in the dark, you either blindly pick to counter 1-1-1, or a safe opening that will not do as well.
Basically, lack of enough scouting information and incorrectly expecting 1-1-1 can get you killed by 2-rax when executing a 15 Nexus / 1 Gate FE.
Hence the small luck factor.
I found that some Terrans I play get a bunker to suggest a tech build, but come with a normal 2-rax. (Stolen from Taeja vs MC I think). There is virtually no way to scout the difference here for a Protoss player, unless the Terran is dumb enough to put a marauder in the bunker. I've lost 3-4 games like this -- where everything I see suggests 1-1-1 opening, then a 2-rax hits.
Aye, Puma also has the 1 rax reactor expand which gets a bunker at the top of the ramp in time for the stalker poke. Pure marines, gas taken, bunker + walloff - 1/1/1 right? NO, 1 rax expand in your face. Watching Socke go 1 gate expand into robo into cut probes into 4 gates with no additional tech (which is exactly what this guide says to do yay) was tough to watch. He even mentioned in the interview he was blind countering 1/1/1 after seeing the bunker.
So, a bunker and marines at the top of the ramp means we are facing heavy tech, pressure or expand. Hooray!!! We now no longer have to worry about cc first, we can scout that!
It's quite depressing when you put it like that - but I have to agree with you.Terrans have realized how reliant we are on the scouting information provided from the initial probe scout and Stalker Poke... expect to see more deception. (Tricking us into overreacting and blindly cutting probes etc.)
On August 30 2011 04:23 Markwerf wrote: Not being able to scout terran is the whole problem with them now at the moment. You can't reliably get information before you have observers at which point you are already behind against a few builds. Large maps are alright as 1 gate FE is completely safe there but smaller maps T just has the advantage of being able to do a random build and get lucky wins sometimes, if P guesses correctly what T is doing T is usually not that far behind anyways.
I agree - The 1-1-1 requires very specific responses that can be Build Order losses, or just inefficient builds vs anything other than a 1-1-1.
Maybe with the immortal range buff protoss can finally have a somewhat consistent counter against this build. Now I feel like you can lose even if you are 100% prepared and don't even make major mistakes.
Decided to put up some rough examples of the approach with 1gate FE zealot/immortal + Show Spoiler [Replays] +
Kittens are soothing for allins.
Not fully refined yet. Don't need as much gas as I take. Little more micro required if more scv's are pulled. But the engagement tactics are pretty straightforward, including guardian shield on zealots during the attack, immortals on tanks, stalkers tanks/banshees. You can do a better job than I did on forcefielding behind the rines. Mid masters.
On August 30 2011 06:19 Vapaach wrote: Maybe with the immortal range buff protoss can finally have a somewhat consistent counter against this build. Now I feel like you can lose even if you are 100% prepared and don't even make major mistakes.
It will certainly make it nice (less retarded shuffling) for the Immortal, but it really comes down to whether or not you have enough to clean up what's typically left - Marines and Banshees. Whenever a player loses to a 1-1-1 despite preparing for it, its always the Marines and Banshees running rampant at the very end before the "gg". Immortals can't help much in that regard.
Thanks for the guide. This build is the reason I've stopped laddering, the only time I've held it (diamond toss) is when the Terran was floating 1.5k when he sieged at my natrual rofl. 1.5k on one base.. T_T
On August 31 2011 02:05 Trowa127 wrote: Thanks for the guide. This build is the reason I've stopped laddering, the only time I've held it (diamond toss) is when the Terran was floating 1.5k when he sieged at my natrual rofl. 1.5k on one base.. T_T
I apologise if this has been answered somewhere on this thread but:
When I 1-gate-robo-expand I have massive difficulties holding my natural. Given the Terran is at least somewhat sneaky with denying your scouting, can you hold the natural vs 2 rax? If so, how should I go about it?
On August 31 2011 02:27 marvellosity wrote: I apologise if this has been answered somewhere on this thread but:
When I 1-gate-robo-expand I have massive difficulties holding my natural. Given the Terran is at least somewhat sneaky with denying your scouting, can you hold the natural vs 2 rax? If so, how should I go about it?
Taken from earlier in the thread:
I open Stalker - sentry - sentry. 2 sentries is completely capable of holding a 2 Rax (up your ramp) until your WG Finishes, and you can definitely kill a good portion of it without any losses if the Terran is dumb enough to come up your ramp. More importantly, you should be able to spot the 2 Rax coming across the map with your stalker at a Xel'naga tower (you can throw up a 2nd gate now for a safe 2 gate Robo), and you'll know that you will have to delay your Nexus a bit - or cancel if its already building. If the Terran loiters at the bottom of your ramp, you do not need a second observer, quickly chrono your first immortal. A single immortal can break any kind of "2 rax contain" or "bunker contain" strategy.
you dont have to 15 nexus or 1 gate fe to beat this, i have beat this build at least 4-5 times easily on ladder recently by delaying my nexus for ages.. I am highish (about 500-700 (depending on server) master and i find any 3 gate robo with a delayed expansion just crushes this..
why? 1.) i chrono probes which means i can pump units and still have a decent econ 2) when i get my delayed nexus (after say a 2gate robo opening or 3gate robo depending what i scout early) i just stop making probs, split the 30 or so over 2 base and just carry on making units.. i normally just flat out crush the attack and i have a exp up.
I promise i will edit this later and post replays but ive read about 40 posts recently saying you need to 1gate fe to hold and thats simply not true.. i actually find this very easy to hold using any build because i cut probes around 30 so i am not investing in probes + exp + pylons for more probes, i am just making an exp at my natural and staying on 3 gate 1 robo, sometimes ill get a 4th gate or a robo bay depending on the version of 1-1-1 thats comming but i can beat this 95%of the time.
the problem with the 1 gate expand or any "early" expands is the terran can see you expand and then just go... which means you insta loose because they get an extra round of units.. i feel going 3 gate robo then expand just gives them no window to attack.. espc if you stop making extra probes one the nexus finishes.. (ps if you say your still 400 min down please stfu.. travel time acrooss most maps means hes a round of units behind also )
1gate fe gives you the chance to have a big lead.. i play for a small advantage and 90% of the time that works out
On September 01 2011 01:10 La1 wrote: you dont have to 15 nexus or 1 gate fe to beat this, i have beat this build at least 4-5 times easily on ladder recently by delaying my nexus for ages.. I am highish (about 500-700 (depending on server) master and i find any 3 gate robo with a delayed expansion just crushes this..
why? 1.) i chrono probes which means i can pump units and still have a decent econ 2) when i get my delayed nexus (after say a 2gate robo opening or 3gate robo depending what i scout early) i just stop making probs, split the 30 or so over 2 base and just carry on making units.. i normally just flat out crush the attack and i have a exp up.
I promise i will edit this later and post replays but ive read about 40 posts recently saying you need to 1gate fe to hold and thats simply not true.. i actually find this very easy to hold using any build because i cut probes around 30 so i am not investing in probes + exp + pylons for more probes, i am just making an exp at my natural and staying on 3 gate 1 robo, sometimes ill get a 4th gate or a robo bay depending on the version of 1-1-1 thats comming but i can beat this 95%of the time.
the problem with the 1 gate expand or any "early" expands is the terran can see you expand and then just go... which means you insta loose because they get an extra round of units.. i feel going 3 gate robo then expand just gives them no window to attack.. espc if you stop making extra probes one the nexus finishes.. (ps if you say your still 400 min down please stfu.. travel time acrooss most maps means hes a round of units behind also )
1gate fe gives you the chance to have a big lead.. i play for a small advantage and 90% of the time that works out
The problem with going 3 Gate Robo is what happens if he is actually going 1 or 2 Rax expand? You can't tell based on your scouting Probe, and if he's really clever you won't be able to tell based on your poking Stalker either.
Meanwhile, he'll notice that you haven't taken your expansion at the normal 1 Gate FE timing and he'll be sure to bunker his expansion and have SCVs ready in case you try to break him with Immortals.
3 Gate Robo can't keep up with current Terran macro builds.
that depends on how fast they expand, if they build the exp in their base chances are you can get a sentry to block the ramp every time they try to come down, allowing you to throw up an exp and get on 2 base whilst they are stuck on 1 until you break the contain.. if you scout a bunker on the low ground with your inital stalker then just expand and play a normal game.. anyway replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/12512 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/12511
i can add more upon request, i am sure i have faced it more than twice recently lol
On September 01 2011 01:10 La1 wrote: you dont have to 15 nexus or 1 gate fe to beat this, i have beat this build at least 4-5 times easily on ladder recently by delaying my nexus for ages.. I am highish (about 500-700 (depending on server) master and i find any 3 gate robo with a delayed expansion just crushes this..
why? 1.) i chrono probes which means i can pump units and still have a decent econ 2) when i get my delayed nexus (after say a 2gate robo opening or 3gate robo depending what i scout early) i just stop making probs, split the 30 or so over 2 base and just carry on making units.. i normally just flat out crush the attack and i have a exp up.
I promise i will edit this later and post replays but ive read about 40 posts recently saying you need to 1gate fe to hold and thats simply not true.. i actually find this very easy to hold using any build because i cut probes around 30 so i am not investing in probes + exp + pylons for more probes, i am just making an exp at my natural and staying on 3 gate 1 robo, sometimes ill get a 4th gate or a robo bay depending on the version of 1-1-1 thats comming but i can beat this 95%of the time.
the problem with the 1 gate expand or any "early" expands is the terran can see you expand and then just go... which means you insta loose because they get an extra round of units.. i feel going 3 gate robo then expand just gives them no window to attack.. espc if you stop making extra probes one the nexus finishes.. (ps if you say your still 400 min down please stfu.. travel time acrooss most maps means hes a round of units behind also )
1gate fe gives you the chance to have a big lead.. i play for a small advantage and 90% of the time that works out
What do you do if the Terran expands behind his 1-1-1 opener? Your 3 Gate-Robo scales poorly vs the 1-1-1 composition.
On August 30 2011 04:17 Micket wrote: Aye, Puma also has the 1 rax reactor expand which gets a bunker at the top of the ramp in time for the stalker poke. Pure marines, gas taken, bunker + walloff - 1/1/1 right? NO, 1 rax expand in your face. Watching Socke go 1 gate expand into robo into cut probes into 4 gates with no additional tech (which is exactly what this guide says to do yay) was tough to watch. He even mentioned in the interview he was blind countering 1/1/1 after seeing the bunker.
So, a bunker and marines at the top of the ramp means we are facing heavy tech, pressure or expand. Hooray!!! We now no longer have to worry about cc first, we can scout that!
It's also perfectly viable to do a 3 rax rush with 2/3rds of your SCVs pulled after bunkering the top of your ramp like this. Works great against Protoss on many closer spawns that went 1 rax FE after seeing it.
I have been gas stealing against terrans regularly and rarely see anyone try to 1/1/1 me from there. I was wondering if anyone else had any luck with this? Usually if there want to continue to tech, you will see multiple marines shooting the assimilator, so it has been a good way for me to scout it out as well.
clearly scouting once or scouting just a bunker isnt enough. i dont recommend a super fast robo but gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate i think its the most well rounded build for all builds terran can throw at you (other than gasless expands).
trying to think of good ways of scouting a second time and the best option seems to be probe + stalker with optional zealot at the 4.30 mark should give u a good amount of info and then just stay outside his ramp with a unit to see when he pushes or expands.
if he manages to bunker up and hide any maruaders that should set his 2 rax timing back and your 2 other gates should finish in time to handle any 2-3 rax aggression but prepare for 1-1-1 in meantime. If theres no bunker and u spot a marauder well thats enough for me to assume no 1-1-1.
On September 03 2011 08:16 Durantula wrote: I have been gas stealing against terrans regularly and rarely see anyone try to 1/1/1 me from there. I was wondering if anyone else had any luck with this? Usually if there want to continue to tech, you will see multiple marines shooting the assimilator, so it has been a good way for me to scout it out as well.
stealing gas doesnt delay 1-1-1. ive been told personally by terrans that basically the exact time the gas steal is killed off is when they take their second gas anyway
On September 03 2011 08:16 drybones wrote: clearly scouting once or scouting just a bunker isnt enough. i dont recommend a super fast robo but gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate i think its the most well rounded build for all builds terran can throw at you (other than gasless expands).
trying to think of good ways of scouting a second time and the best option seems to be probe + stalker with optional zealot at the 4.30 mark should give u a good amount of info and then just stay outside his ramp with a unit to see when he pushes or expands.
if he manages to bunker up and hide any maruaders that should set his 2 rax timing back and your 2 other gates should finish in time to handle any 2-3 rax aggression but prepare for 1-1-1 in meantime. If theres no bunker and u spot a marauder well thats enough for me to assume no 1-1-1.
Hiding marauders does not set his 2rax timing back at all. They sit by the command center ready to walk out whenever they feel the strongest moment for attacking a 1gate FE is, while the marines chill in their bunker.
trying to think of good ways of scouting a second time and the best option seems to be probe + stalker with optional zealot at the 4.30 mark should give u a good amount of info and then just stay outside his ramp with a unit to see when he pushes or expands.
1gate FE has been scouting like this for ages and we are precisely talking about how Terrans have been confusing our scouting information by hiding everything but rines. Please, drybones, inform yourself by reading the posts leading up to this one and don't throw out a little weasely theorycrafting.
gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate i think its the most well rounded build for all builds terran can throw at you (other than gasless expands).
Ummm, I just wanted to ask if with the Immortal Buff... do you think going gate-Robo-expand will be more viable against a 2 Raxing player?
I will be more easy to focus fire the Marauders with the 1 Immortal. Dunno how timmings would line up, but this would make the 1-1-1 much easier to scout right?
Thanks for the guide, I played against the 1-1-1 build on ladder today and cutting probes and putting extra gateways I was able to hold it easily. Thanks
On September 03 2011 08:16 drybones wrote: clearly scouting once or scouting just a bunker isnt enough. i dont recommend a super fast robo but gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate i think its the most well rounded build for all builds terran can throw at you (other than gasless expands).
trying to think of good ways of scouting a second time and the best option seems to be probe + stalker with optional zealot at the 4.30 mark should give u a good amount of info and then just stay outside his ramp with a unit to see when he pushes or expands.
if he manages to bunker up and hide any maruaders that should set his 2 rax timing back and your 2 other gates should finish in time to handle any 2-3 rax aggression but prepare for 1-1-1 in meantime. If theres no bunker and u spot a marauder well thats enough for me to assume no 1-1-1.
Hiding marauders does not set his 2rax timing back at all. They sit by the command center ready to walk out whenever they feel the strongest moment for attacking a 1gate FE is, while the marines chill in their bunker.
trying to think of good ways of scouting a second time and the best option seems to be probe + stalker with optional zealot at the 4.30 mark should give u a good amount of info and then just stay outside his ramp with a unit to see when he pushes or expands.
1gate FE has been scouting like this for ages and we are precisely talking about how Terrans have been confusing our scouting information by hiding everything but rines. Please, drybones, inform yourself by reading the posts leading up to this one and don't throw out a little weasely theorycrafting.
gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate i think its the most well rounded build for all builds terran can throw at you (other than gasless expands).
Entirely insufficient for discussion.
yikes you seem angry. im aware my points arent new or groundbreaking but ppl keep asking scouting questions so i decided to answer. Sometimes reminding yourself of good fundamentals (like the 4.30 scout) can be extremely important, far from theory crafting since im aware others know to do this.
Hiding maruaders and bunkering will for sure delay a 2rax timing. 1 gate FE is pretty weak until your WG finishes and the 2rax can hit at 5.30 with wg finishing at 6.30 with no chronos (to line up gateway timing). Even just 10-15s can be huge since you will be taking less fire on the nexus and have time to prepare which you wouldnt otherwise if terran decided to just not hide it.
i'd need to see a replay of someone hiding a 2rax using a bunker and still hitting at 5.30 with 5 rines and 1 marauder to believe it but until then i am going to assume bunkering for deception delays it slightly.
i understand your point that it wouldnt delay a delayed 2/3 rax aggression but by then we can have warp gates chronod and scouts in place to see it so it should be possible to hold with a good unit composition and ff's. I feel like the most dangerous is the 5.30 attack with scvs to bunker with any delayed attack giving us more time to prepare.
i brought up "gate core nexus gate gate robo gate gate" to build on the idea of when to scout. some people think rushing to obs is the best way and i just disagree since it will leave you too vulnerable to early 2 rax.
On September 03 2011 09:34 windsupernova wrote: Ummm, I just wanted to ask if with the Immortal Buff... do you think going gate-Robo-expand will be more viable against a 2 Raxing player?
I will be more easy to focus fire the Marauders with the 1 Immortal. Dunno how timmings would line up, but this would make the 1-1-1 much easier to scout right?
Thanks for the guide, I played against the 1-1-1 build on ladder today and cutting probes and putting extra gateways I was able to hold it easily. Thanks
worth a look im sure... see how early you can get an immortal out. some problems i foresee is by the time you want your robo to go down for the earliest possible immortal his scout should still be floating around your base. if he sees a fast robo he may just add more marines.
again though the 1 rauder 5 rine attack can come at 5.30 on close pos so see if you can get an immortal out by then. obviously you can delay your expo and ff the ramp till its out but if u want to 1gate 1robo (+immort) fe thats a heck of alot of minerals. also immortals dont do very well without gateway support so i feel like his next attacks could hurt alot during the time we wait to get an expo and more gates + gateway units.
like i said worth a look though just not sure if its viable
On September 03 2011 08:16 Durantula wrote: I have been gas stealing against terrans regularly and rarely see anyone try to 1/1/1 me from there. I was wondering if anyone else had any luck with this? Usually if there want to continue to tech, you will see multiple marines shooting the assimilator, so it has been a good way for me to scout it out as well.
stealing gas doesnt delay 1-1-1. ive been told personally by terrans that basically the exact time the gas steal is killed off is when they take their second gas anyway
though about the only thing ive found with stealing a gas from a terran is that, the toss can pressure the front door with a 2 or 3 gate pressure and be more effective. or the gas doesnt get killed in time.
ive been experimenting and theory crafting with that idea, though i cant quite determine how effective it is =/ as ive won some games at high masters where they pulled nearly everything to kill that gas, and i just walk in the front door. though if they split properly thats the part where im debating whether its worth it.
though i agree if all you do is gas steal, its not worth it. needs to have a follow up.
Been playing alot verse my friend and was trying a 2 gate robo exp but with a warp prism with stalkers in it for scouting. My objective was to take out there gas AND scout. You can almost tell instantly what they got by how they react to your drop (warped in zealots for support) If I noticed a ton of units I would pick up stalkers and as many zealots as I can high tail it back to base cuz I scouted a 2 rax pressure (cancel Nexus) and proceed to 1 base colossi. Im no expert but I thought that since a patch for prism is going to hit us soon we should try and consider its use
On September 01 2011 01:10 La1 wrote: you dont have to 15 nexus or 1 gate fe to beat this, i have beat this build at least 4-5 times easily on ladder recently by delaying my nexus for ages.. I am highish (about 500-700 (depending on server) master and i find any 3 gate robo with a delayed expansion just crushes this..
why? 1.) i chrono probes which means i can pump units and still have a decent econ 2) when i get my delayed nexus (after say a 2gate robo opening or 3gate robo depending what i scout early) i just stop making probs, split the 30 or so over 2 base and just carry on making units.. i normally just flat out crush the attack and i have a exp up.
I promise i will edit this later and post replays but ive read about 40 posts recently saying you need to 1gate fe to hold and thats simply not true.. i actually find this very easy to hold using any build because i cut probes around 30 so i am not investing in probes + exp + pylons for more probes, i am just making an exp at my natural and staying on 3 gate 1 robo, sometimes ill get a 4th gate or a robo bay depending on the version of 1-1-1 thats comming but i can beat this 95%of the time.
the problem with the 1 gate expand or any "early" expands is the terran can see you expand and then just go... which means you insta loose because they get an extra round of units.. i feel going 3 gate robo then expand just gives them no window to attack.. espc if you stop making extra probes one the nexus finishes.. (ps if you say your still 400 min down please stfu.. travel time acrooss most maps means hes a round of units behind also )
1gate fe gives you the chance to have a big lead.. i play for a small advantage and 90% of the time that works out
What do you do if the Terran expands behind his 1-1-1 opener? Your 3 Gate-Robo scales poorly vs the 1-1-1 composition.
it then becomes a long game, and i dont loose to a 1-1-1 all in.. if you get the robo + obs quick enough you can see what "build" he is going for,
generally i throw down the exp once i feel safe i can hold any 1-1-1 all in as seen in my replays
On September 03 2011 09:34 windsupernova wrote: Ummm, I just wanted to ask if with the Immortal Buff... do you think going gate-Robo-expand will be more viable against a 2 Raxing player?
I will be more easy to focus fire the Marauders with the 1 Immortal. Dunno how timmings would line up, but this would make the 1-1-1 much easier to scout right?
Thanks for the guide, I played against the 1-1-1 build on ladder today and cutting probes and putting extra gateways I was able to hold it easily. Thanks
worth a look im sure... see how early you can get an immortal out. some problems i foresee is by the time you want your robo to go down for the earliest possible immortal his scout should still be floating around your base. if he sees a fast robo he may just add more marines.
again though the 1 rauder 5 rine attack can come at 5.30 on close pos so see if you can get an immortal out by then. obviously you can delay your expo and ff the ramp till its out but if u want to 1gate 1robo (+immort) fe thats a heck of alot of minerals. also immortals dont do very well without gateway support so i feel like his next attacks could hurt alot during the time we wait to get an expo and more gates + gateway units.
like i said worth a look though just not sure if its viable
I've been doing gate/gas/cyber/gas/robo/stalker/sentry/immortal/nexus at 38/42 supply for a while on ladder now. Three chronos on probes, two-three on gateway depending on scouting and one-two on immortal. I'm completely skipping the first two gateway units in exchange for a faster immortal. Scouting with your first probe must be very strong.
Nexus goes down around 5:50. Two more gates and an obs as warp gate finishes. If you scout bio/marauder aggression you can get another immortal instead.
1 gate expo into starport 3 gate. has been the only thing that wins me games against the 1 1 1, when a banshee scouts me i put down a robo. only tend to get 1 immortal out before the 1 1 1 push, i try to put down an extra gate if i can once the 2 bases are going. if they are doing a regular build i poke their wall off with stalkers + vision. works well against platinum terran
Stargate openings beat the 8-minute version of the rush but if he just sits and masses marines until 10 minutes your starport opening looks stupid. And it's an easy decision for him to make since if you open with stargate and not robo you have to use the phoenixes to scout, so he knows you have phoenix. By opening stargate you're relying on him not knowing how to respond, which is stupid.
There are plenty of builds that beat the 1/1/1. The key to beating 1/1/1 is to have both an expansion, as well as three or more Immortals ready when he arrives at your base. If you have this you will crush them. If you don't have it, you can't win without outplaying the Terran significantly. The problem is any build that can achieve this outright loses to other common Terran openers. So the way things are currently balanced you have to decide what you're going to lose to. Either the 1/1/1, or something else.
15 Nexus craps all over the 1/1/1, as it gives you more than enough time and econ to scout them with an obs, and make sufficient immortals before they arrive. Of course, 15 Nexus dies to any kind of early aggression.
Any robo before expo build also beats it, for basically the same reason - you have the robo finished much earlier which lets you get out immortals faster. Unfortunately, 1 gate robo expo dies badly to 3 rax, 2 rax with pulled SCVs, or any form of marine/scv allin. 2 gate or 3 gate robo expo die to any fast expansion opening, as you'll be too far behind.
1 gate FE builds just can't beat the 1/1/1 because placing the robo after your nexus doesn't let you get an obs out plus sufficient immortals by the time they reach you.
Personally, I think the Immortal change is going to fix this. The Immortal change will let Protoss do 1 gate robo expo and still survive something like 2 rax aggression, as 6 range immortals can't be blocked from shooting at marauders by a wall of SCVs. Once the marauders are gone you can just retreat up the ramp and recharge your shields as well as get more units, their marines aren't going to tear your nexus down by themselves. 1 gate robo expo also isn't behind against something like 1 rax FE, as it will force the Terran to make marauders and many bunkers.
On September 03 2011 09:34 windsupernova wrote: Ummm, I just wanted to ask if with the Immortal Buff... do you think going gate-Robo-expand will be more viable against a 2 Raxing player?
I will be more easy to focus fire the Marauders with the 1 Immortal. Dunno how timmings would line up, but this would make the 1-1-1 much easier to scout right?
Thanks for the guide, I played against the 1-1-1 build on ladder today and cutting probes and putting extra gateways I was able to hold it easily. Thanks
worth a look im sure... see how early you can get an immortal out. some problems i foresee is by the time you want your robo to go down for the earliest possible immortal his scout should still be floating around your base. if he sees a fast robo he may just add more marines.
again though the 1 rauder 5 rine attack can come at 5.30 on close pos so see if you can get an immortal out by then. obviously you can delay your expo and ff the ramp till its out but if u want to 1gate 1robo (+immort) fe thats a heck of alot of minerals. also immortals dont do very well without gateway support so i feel like his next attacks could hurt alot during the time we wait to get an expo and more gates + gateway units.
like i said worth a look though just not sure if its viable
I have been experimenting with fast immortal against 2 rax (R/TL) a lot lately and so far it does not look very promising. By getting an Immortal in time (~5:40-5:50 on XNC) a combination (depending on BO) of the following issues arises: a) 2 Gas - cuting probes temporary below optimal saturation - even cuting units out of only gate - Nexus gets delayed up to the point you would plant it right as the attack hits b) 1 Gas - no 2nd Gas and therefore mostly Zealots - delayed additional gates, therefore relying on slow immortal-production for a long time
The Immortal's opportunity costs are simply to high for that early stage of the game.
i just get start hallu right after robo and skip one obs. I can hallu phoenix scout for w/e tech he's doing, then when the push comes throw up a few hallu immortals to draw marine focus fire while real immos target tanks. It can be a little tricky, and fails real bad if you don't get your army lined up right.
Will edit w/ replays today if i come across 1-1-1 on ladder
Edit: or if anyone wants to run some practice games as terran, i'm grizzly.400 on NA
On September 13 2011 03:18 J.E.G. wrote: i just get start hallu right after robo and skip one obs. I can hallu phoenix scout for w/e tech he's doing, then when the push comes throw up a few hallu immortals to draw marine focus fire while real immos target tanks. It can be a little tricky, and fails real bad if you don't get your army lined up right.
Will edit w/ replays today if i come across 1-1-1 on ladder
Edit: or if anyone wants to run some practice games as terran, i'm grizzly.400 on NA
Raven/Scan identifies Hallucinations which leads to autoattack completely ignoring them.
Right so if you can snipe the raven (if it's even a raven build) they have to burn scans which makes the following pushes much weaker.
In the actual engagement, the raven is usually kept towards the back, so if you lead with the hallu immo's they are going to take a bunch of tank and marine fire before they enter into the raven's detection range.
Here's a replay; engagement is at about 12:00 (this isn't a good build, but shows the usefulness of hallu in the engagement vs raven): http://www.mediafire.com/?schgd45joa9ubuj
On September 13 2011 04:21 J.E.G. wrote: Right so if you can snipe the raven (if it's even a raven build) they have to burn scans which makes the following pushes much weaker.
In the actual engagement, the raven is usually kept towards the back, so if you lead with the hallu immo's they are going to take a bunch of tank and marine fire before they enter into the raven's detection range.
Here's a replay; engagement is at about 12:00 (this isn't a good build, but shows the usefulness of hallu in the engagement vs raven): http://www.mediafire.com/?schgd45joa9ubuj
You cant snipe the raven if it hovers right above the army especially not with PDD. Your Hallucinations soaked up about 4 tankshots which can be achieved be a regular immortal or a forward zealot aswell. After they entered detection range all damage they received was splash from nearby zealots/stalkers. Hallucinations did not win you that battle, it did not even help that much. A guardian shield on the left flank would have had more effect on the outcome of that battle than all hallucinations together. The fact that you had more mineralvalue in zealots as he had in marines -because he supply capped himself several times- and his emphasis on tanks (without using half of them) instead of banshees was what won you that battle. Even 3 more Banshees instead of those idle tanks and you would have been in a world of pain.
On August 24 2011 00:13 HazZerK wrote: Just thought I'd add my own 2cents worth. Basically I was herpa-derping with stalkers until i read this guide, then the whole 'don't make stalkers' thing clicked, and I started holding it. Easily.
This is only a recent example but here is me going for a 3gate DT expo, then scouting the 1-1-1, then winning.
Very well played. The only problem for the rest of us is that your counter to his 1-1-1 took about 10x more skill to pull off than the actual 1-1-1. And he had some pretty brutal scans there. If he had just switched out to a tech lab on his barracks he could hold your dt easier with marauders.
I'm finding 1-1-1 VERY difficult to counter even when countering to it blind. And forget about 15 Nexus - if it's scouted 1) you're dead to anything but 1-1-1 and 2) if he abandons the 1-1-1 and pushes out you're in serious trouble.
On September 13 2011 03:18 J.E.G. wrote: i just get start hallu right after robo and skip one obs. I can hallu phoenix scout for w/e tech he's doing, then when the push comes throw up a few hallu immortals to draw marine focus fire while real immos target tanks. It can be a little tricky, and fails real bad if you don't get your army lined up right.
Will edit w/ replays today if i come across 1-1-1 on ladder
Edit: or if anyone wants to run some practice games as terran, i'm grizzly.400 on NA
Raven/Scan identifies Hallucinations which leads to autoattack completely ignoring them.
Correct me if I'm wrong but even if a hallucination is detected it will still trigger autoattacks if nothing else is in range right? So a hallucinated immortal still serves a purpose in charging in and soaking up initial tank fire.
Another interesting thing is if you do use phoenix to scout it may actually trick terrans into making AA like turrets and vikings. I've seen it happen quite a bit when I use my initial phoenix to scout when I open stargate vs terran. I think this is because researching hallucinate in PvT is pretty rare, unlike in PvZ (plus your phoenixes always end up autoattacking stray overlords that give it away anyway).
On September 13 2011 03:18 J.E.G. wrote: i just get start hallu right after robo and skip one obs. I can hallu phoenix scout for w/e tech he's doing, then when the push comes throw up a few hallu immortals to draw marine focus fire while real immos target tanks. It can be a little tricky, and fails real bad if you don't get your army lined up right.
Will edit w/ replays today if i come across 1-1-1 on ladder
Edit: or if anyone wants to run some practice games as terran, i'm grizzly.400 on NA
Raven/Scan identifies Hallucinations which leads to autoattack completely ignoring them.
Correct me if I'm wrong but even if a hallucination is detected it will still trigger autoattacks if nothing else is in range right? So a hallucinated immortal still serves a purpose in charging in and soaking up initial tank fire.
Another interesting thing is if you do use phoenix to scout it may actually trick terrans into making AA like turrets and vikings. I've seen it happen quite a bit when I use my initial phoenix to scout when I open stargate vs terran. I think this is because researching hallucinate in PvT is pretty rare, unlike in PvZ (plus your phoenixes always end up autoattacking stray overlords that give it away anyway).
You are right. But a leading Zealot would achive exactly the same without 100 Gas cost. Against a build where you die the moment you dont have enough stuff to deflect his push I dont think its useful to invest 100/100 into something that can be achived with 100/0 aswell. As said before, as soon as other stuff enters detection range (which is quite large with raven above marines) hallucinations are useless. Its not even that Units keep their target until it dies (like if you use shift-focus-commands), they switch target literally the moment anything real is in range. In worst case Immortals with their soon range 6 will block the engagement-path of your zealots and work against you. It might be a worthwile consideration for delayed pushes past the 10 Minute mark against a lot of tanks but I feel these are not as different to hold as earlier ones anyways.
The Idea about the hallucinated phoenix sounds good if you dont get any other form of scouting, but: Against Banshee first 1/1/1 they might get suspicious why you dont attack their banshee with your phoenix and against Raven first you either fly right into it and get revealed by detection or they might be suspicious again why avoid the raven instead of attacking it. Even if they fall to belive you opened Stargate, i think it would in best case lead them just to build a Viking instead of another Banshee and push out sooner with a lot scv's pulled (like after first 2 tanks) assuming you are very weak on ground, which is actually harder to hold than later pushes if you FE (imho).
Edit: If you want to incorperate Hallucination what about, in addition to the immortals, creating phoenixes before the actual battle do burn up PDD-Energy really fast by their double-shots. Does that work?
I really think Hallu is a good way to go as it cheaply (in both cost and supply) can soak up a ton of dps, which is what makes 1-1-1 so strong. The trick is in having enough sentries w/ energy to make enough hallu's for them to be effective, which again can make your opener much weaker vs other terran builds
EDIT: Also, I haven't had much luck going for hallu phoenix scout. It hits too late to change anything and delays the robo too much.
On September 13 2011 03:18 J.E.G. wrote: i just get start hallu right after robo and skip one obs. I can hallu phoenix scout for w/e tech he's doing, then when the push comes throw up a few hallu immortals to draw marine focus fire while real immos target tanks. It can be a little tricky, and fails real bad if you don't get your army lined up right.
Will edit w/ replays today if i come across 1-1-1 on ladder
Edit: or if anyone wants to run some practice games as terran, i'm grizzly.400 on NA
Raven/Scan identifies Hallucinations which leads to autoattack completely ignoring them.
Correct me if I'm wrong but even if a hallucination is detected it will still trigger autoattacks if nothing else is in range right? So a hallucinated immortal still serves a purpose in charging in and soaking up initial tank fire.
Another interesting thing is if you do use phoenix to scout it may actually trick terrans into making AA like turrets and vikings. I've seen it happen quite a bit when I use my initial phoenix to scout when I open stargate vs terran. I think this is because researching hallucinate in PvT is pretty rare, unlike in PvZ (plus your phoenixes always end up autoattacking stray overlords that give it away anyway).
You are right. But a leading Zealot would achive exactly the same without 100 Gas cost. Against a build where you die the moment you dont have enough stuff to deflect his push I dont think its useful to invest 100/100 into something that can be achived with 100/0 aswell. As said before, as soon as other stuff enters detection range (which is quite large with raven above marines) hallucinations are useless. Its not even that Units keep their target until it dies (like if you use shift-focus-commands), they switch target literally the moment anything real is in range. In worst case Immortals with their soon range 6 will block the engagement-path of your zealots and work against you. It might be a worthwile consideration for delayed pushes past the 10 Minute mark against a lot of tanks but I feel these are not as different to hold as earlier ones anyways.
The Idea about the hallucinated phoenix sounds good if you dont get any other form of scouting, but: Against Banshee first 1/1/1 they might get suspicious why you dont attack their banshee with your phoenix and against Raven first you either fly right into it and get revealed by detection or they might be suspicious again why avoid the raven instead of attacking it. Even if they fall to belive you opened Stargate, i think it would in best case lead them just to build a Viking instead of another Banshee and push out sooner with a lot scv's pulled (like after first 2 tanks) assuming you are very weak on ground, which is actually harder to hold than later pushes if you FE (imho).
Edit: If you want to incorperate Hallucination what about creating phoenixes before the actual battle do burn up PDD-Energy really fast by their double-shots. Does that work?
Hallucination does seem worth it to me for its cost though if you actually have enough sentries to spare the energy. The whole "why is he not targeting my banshees thing" isn't that big a deal because standard 1-gate star timing your phoenix will be at his base before his first stargate unit pops out anyway.
Hallucinations do burn PDD energy last I checked but PDD really only affects stalkers, and you really should have a minimal amount of stalkers when the push actually comes. You want to clean up all the marines and tanks first and then use a round of warp-ins to take down any leftover banshees. In that scenario you can just use your sentries to burn the PDD if needed.
I think I'm going to try out hallucination vs 1-1-1 and see how it works out. In my mind I think hallucinating Immortals would work best since you would be mixing them up with real immortals and it's not as obvious they are fake (like archons or colossi would be).
On September 13 2011 03:18 J.E.G. wrote: i just get start hallu right after robo and skip one obs. I can hallu phoenix scout for w/e tech he's doing, then when the push comes throw up a few hallu immortals to draw marine focus fire while real immos target tanks. It can be a little tricky, and fails real bad if you don't get your army lined up right.
Will edit w/ replays today if i come across 1-1-1 on ladder
Edit: or if anyone wants to run some practice games as terran, i'm grizzly.400 on NA
Raven/Scan identifies Hallucinations which leads to autoattack completely ignoring them.
Correct me if I'm wrong but even if a hallucination is detected it will still trigger autoattacks if nothing else is in range right? So a hallucinated immortal still serves a purpose in charging in and soaking up initial tank fire.
Another interesting thing is if you do use phoenix to scout it may actually trick terrans into making AA like turrets and vikings. I've seen it happen quite a bit when I use my initial phoenix to scout when I open stargate vs terran. I think this is because researching hallucinate in PvT is pretty rare, unlike in PvZ (plus your phoenixes always end up autoattacking stray overlords that give it away anyway).
You are right. But a leading Zealot would achive exactly the same without 100 Gas cost. Against a build where you die the moment you dont have enough stuff to deflect his push I dont think its useful to invest 100/100 into something that can be achived with 100/0 aswell. As said before, as soon as other stuff enters detection range (which is quite large with raven above marines) hallucinations are useless. Its not even that Units keep their target until it dies (like if you use shift-focus-commands), they switch target literally the moment anything real is in range. In worst case Immortals with their soon range 6 will block the engagement-path of your zealots and work against you. It might be a worthwile consideration for delayed pushes past the 10 Minute mark against a lot of tanks but I feel these are not as different to hold as earlier ones anyways.
The Idea about the hallucinated phoenix sounds good if you dont get any other form of scouting, but: Against Banshee first 1/1/1 they might get suspicious why you dont attack their banshee with your phoenix and against Raven first you either fly right into it and get revealed by detection or they might be suspicious again why avoid the raven instead of attacking it. Even if they fall to belive you opened Stargate, i think it would in best case lead them just to build a Viking instead of another Banshee and push out sooner with a lot scv's pulled (like after first 2 tanks) assuming you are very weak on ground, which is actually harder to hold than later pushes if you FE (imho).
Edit: If you want to incorperate Hallucination what about creating phoenixes before the actual battle do burn up PDD-Energy really fast by their double-shots. Does that work?
Hallucination does seem worth it to me for its cost though if you actually have enough sentries to spare the energy. The whole "why is he not targeting my banshees thing" isn't that big a deal because standard 1-gate star timing your phoenix will be at his base before his first stargate unit pops out anyway.
Hallucinations do burn PDD energy last I checked but PDD really only affects stalkers, and you really should have a minimal amount of stalkers when the push actually comes. You want to clean up all the marines and tanks first and then use a round of warp-ins to take down any leftover banshees. In that scenario you can just use your sentries to burn the PDD if needed.
I think I'm going to try out hallucination vs 1-1-1 and see how it works out. In my mind I think hallucinating Immortals would work best since you would be mixing them up with real immortals and it's not as obvious they are fake (like archons or colossi would be).
Hallucinated Phoenix reaches him after 6:30 afaik, unless you either skip Warpgate, use every single chronoboost on your core, proxy it with a sentry near his base and/or in close air positions (which would be better to actually use 1 Gate Star). I have yet to see a game where it actually works to take down 2-4 Banshees with "a round of stalkers". The opposite is the case most of the times.
It does not matter which unit seems to be "a good fake" AI auto-ignores detected hallucination if anything else is in range. All you can soak up is the first volley of shots if you lead with a hallucination.
On September 13 2011 06:41 J.E.G. wrote: But you still have said immortal/zealot after your hallu's tank all that damage isntead of your actual units dying to the first round of tank volleys.
I really think Hallu is a good way to go as it cheaply (in both cost and supply) can soak up a ton of dps, which is what makes 1-1-1 so strong. The trick is in having enough sentries w/ energy to make enough hallu's for them to be effective, which again can make your opener much weaker vs other terran builds
EDIT: Also, I haven't had much luck going for hallu phoenix scout. It hits too late to change anything and delays the robo too much.
Just tested it, hallu phoenix burns PDD-Energy. Actually a lot of Sentries is very good against most other openings like 2/3 Rax or Mass Marines and most FE-Builds get them anyways early on. With the addition of said Phoenixes to burn PDD's it might actually be worth to invest into Hallucination. My skepticism was grounded on the fact that an engagement lead by Hallucinations would swallow just the first volley, which means 2-4 tankshots. A Zealot can eat 4 tankshots aswell before it dies. So you invested 100/100 (Hallu) or 100/0 (Zealot) to avoid 2-4 tankshots. Its obvious which one appears to be better. But with an additional return of investment (depleting the pdd) the balance swings back into Hallucinations favor even when you get it early on.
There you got it TL. Someone changed his oppinion through a forum! The internet will collapse.
On September 13 2011 06:41 J.E.G. wrote: But you still have said immortal/zealot after your hallu's tank all that damage isntead of your actual units dying to the first round of tank volleys.
I really think Hallu is a good way to go as it cheaply (in both cost and supply) can soak up a ton of dps, which is what makes 1-1-1 so strong. The trick is in having enough sentries w/ energy to make enough hallu's for them to be effective, which again can make your opener much weaker vs other terran builds
EDIT: Also, I haven't had much luck going for hallu phoenix scout. It hits too late to change anything and delays the robo too much.
Just tested it, hallu phoenix burns PDD-Energy. Actually a lot of Sentries is very good against most other openings like 2/3 Rax or Mass Marines and most FE-Builds get them anyways early on. With the addition of said Phoenixes to burn PDD's it might actually be worth to invest into Hallucination. My skepticism was grounded on the fact that an engagement lead by Hallucinations would swallow just the first volley, which means 2-4 tankshots. A Zealot can eat 4 tankshots aswell before it dies. So you invested 100/100 (Hallu) or 100/0 (Zealot) to avoid 2-4 tankshots. Its obvious which one appears to be better. But with an additional return of investment (depleting the pdd) the balance swings back into Hallucinations favor even when you get it early on.
There you got it TL. Someone changed his oppinion through a forum! The internet will collapse.
But it's not an either or situation for zealot vs. hallu, its zealot+hallu, and you can get 3 or 4 immortals or 6-8 hallucinated zealots.
Also, if you go immortals, their hardened shield reduces tank damage to 20 (idk why 20 and not 10, but check the replay i posted and this is the case). So, one hallu immo can tank 9 tank shots (5 while having 100 shields, 4 more to kill its 200 health). This means 3 hallucinated immortals tank 27 tank shots. and i'd say thats worth 100/100.
EDIT: I see what you mean about them only tanking a few shots with the raven there.
On September 13 2011 07:59 J.E.G. wrote: But it's not an either or situation for zealot vs. hallu, its zealot+hallu, and you can get 3 or 4 immortals or 6-8 hallucinated zealots.
Also, if you go immortals, their hardened shield reduces tank damage to 20 (idk why 20 and not 10, but check the replay i posted and this is the case). So, one hallu immo can tank 9 tank shots (5 while having 100 shields, 4 more to kill its 200 health). This means 3 hallucinated immortals tank 27 tank shots. and i'd say thats worth 100/100.
EDIT: I see what you mean about them only tanking a few shots with the raven there.
Hallu units take double damage, which is why they take 20 on the hardened shields, not 10.
I have experimented with hallucination a few times. It can be great against builds without Raven's, but assuming that one does show up, you will have wasted all that energy just to tank the initial tank shots. After that, you have no forcefields / guardian shields to fight the marines.
In the OP it says that to defend 1-1-1 you must either 1 gate-robo-FE or 1-gate-FE-robo, but that either of these builds will die to 2rax.
I usually open 2gaterobo (gate-robo-gate) like MC does. The 2nd gate goes down straight after the robo. Assuming I dont get interrupted, I can put down an expansion as early as 36 supply (forgot the timing of this).
My question is - is this too late to react to 1-1-1? I am afraid that if I open 1 gate-robo-FE, then if it turns out to be a 2rax then I will die. But i rely on my obs to confirm if its 1-1-1 cos sometimes my stalker scout is not enough to conclude anything, but by the time my obs confirms what they are doing, I must have already committed to the 2gaterobo opening instead of 1gaterobo-FE.
On September 22 2011 16:08 bankai wrote: Have a question!
In the OP it says that to defend 1-1-1 you must either 1 gate-robo-FE or 1-gate-FE-robo, but that either of these builds will die to 2rax.
I usually open 2gaterobo (gate-robo-gate) like MC does. The 2nd gate goes down straight after the robo. Assuming I dont get interrupted, I can put down an expansion as early as 36 supply (forgot the timing of this).
My question is - is this too late to react to 1-1-1? I am afraid that if I open 1 gate-robo-FE, then if it turns out to be a 2rax then I will die. But i rely on my obs to confirm if its 1-1-1 cos sometimes my stalker scout is not enough to conclude anything, but by the time my obs confirms what they are doing, I must have already committed to the 2gaterobo opening instead of 1gaterobo-FE.
you didn't read the whole post, did you?
OP stated clearly that the 2 initial sentries is to stop any 2 rax. That should be enough I guess.
On September 16 2011 02:38 QTIP. wrote: I have experimented with hallucination a few times. It can be great against builds without Raven's, but assuming that one does show up, you will have wasted all that energy just to tank the initial tank shots. After that, you have no forcefields / guardian shields to fight the marines.
I think Hallucination is potentially a powerful response to certain versions of the 1-1-1, but this is correct. I've been experimenting with using Hallucination (mostly in PvZ), and basically it's very strong in fights without detection and useless with it. The only value a detected Zealot will have once real units have moved into attack range will be to prevent marines from being microed forward, and you can acheive the same result more precisely for the same energy using two force fields.
I'm also not convinved that hallucinated Phoenix to drain PDD energy are an efficient use of resources. I feel like you're better off just not having that many Sentries in your army in the first place against this attack, and if you do, I'm not convinced that you get a better return out of using their energy for hallucinated units than by using their other spells and then just directly attacking the PDD. It doesn't take long for a few Sentries to focus the PDD down.
On September 22 2011 16:08 bankai wrote: Have a question!
In the OP it says that to defend 1-1-1 you must either 1 gate-robo-FE or 1-gate-FE-robo, but that either of these builds will die to 2rax.
I usually open 2gaterobo (gate-robo-gate) like MC does. The 2nd gate goes down straight after the robo. Assuming I dont get interrupted, I can put down an expansion as early as 36 supply (forgot the timing of this).
My question is - is this too late to react to 1-1-1? I am afraid that if I open 1 gate-robo-FE, then if it turns out to be a 2rax then I will die. But i rely on my obs to confirm if its 1-1-1 cos sometimes my stalker scout is not enough to conclude anything, but by the time my obs confirms what they are doing, I must have already committed to the 2gaterobo opening instead of 1gaterobo-FE.
you didn't read the whole post, did you?
OP stated clearly that the 2 initial sentries is to stop any 2 rax. That should be enough I guess.
no need to be rude.....
Perhaps i didnt frame my question very well. Will try again.
I want to clarify - do you have to commit to 1gaterobo-FE or 2gaterobo builds before you confirm its 1-1-1? In the OP "Scouting" section, it sounds like after using ur scouting probe, unless you are lucky and see a marauder or something, there are often times when you think there is a chance of 1-1-1 but not sure until the obs reaches their base.
But by the time the obs reaches the base, you must have already committed to an opening build. The OP does say that if you know its 2rax, then 1gaterobo-FE is not optimal, even though you would be able to hold it off with the 2sentries.
So to summarise my questions are: 1) Do you basically have to commit to a build before confirming its 1-1-1? 2) If I always open 2gaterobo and expand on 36supply (assuming no terran interuption), then if it turns out to be 1-1-1, will my expansion be too delayed to hold it off?
Thanks and sorry if there is something said about this already. Reading the OP i didnt see the answer to this but i may have overlooked.
On September 22 2011 16:08 bankai wrote: Have a question!
In the OP it says that to defend 1-1-1 you must either 1 gate-robo-FE or 1-gate-FE-robo, but that either of these builds will die to 2rax.
I usually open 2gaterobo (gate-robo-gate) like MC does. The 2nd gate goes down straight after the robo. Assuming I dont get interrupted, I can put down an expansion as early as 36 supply (forgot the timing of this).
My question is - is this too late to react to 1-1-1? I am afraid that if I open 1 gate-robo-FE, then if it turns out to be a 2rax then I will die. But i rely on my obs to confirm if its 1-1-1 cos sometimes my stalker scout is not enough to conclude anything, but by the time my obs confirms what they are doing, I must have already committed to the 2gaterobo opening instead of 1gaterobo-FE.
you didn't read the whole post, did you?
OP stated clearly that the 2 initial sentries is to stop any 2 rax. That should be enough I guess.
no need to be rude.....
Perhaps i didnt frame my question very well. Will try again.
I want to clarify - do you have to commit to 1gaterobo-FE or 2gaterobo builds before you confirm its 1-1-1? In the OP "Scouting" section, it sounds like after using ur scouting probe, unless you are lucky and see a marauder or something, there are often times when you think there is a chance of 1-1-1 but not sure until the obs reaches their base.
But by the time the obs reaches the base, you must have already committed to an opening build. The OP does say that if you know its 2rax, then 1gaterobo-FE is not optimal, even though you would be able to hold it off with the 2sentries.
So to summarise my questions are: 1) Do you basically have to commit to a build before confirming its 1-1-1? 2) If I always open 2gaterobo and expand on 36supply (assuming no terran interuption), then if it turns out to be 1-1-1, will my expansion be too delayed to hold it off?
Thanks and sorry if there is something said about this already. Reading the OP i didnt see the answer to this but i may have overlooked.
1) Yes. You will have to commit to your build before getting confirmation that that he is 100% doing a 1/1/1 build. You do this based on scouting information. The reads you will need to make are contained in the "Scouting" section of the OP. This will not tell you 100% that they are doing a 1/1/1 build, especially if you are unable to get your probe into their base (a 4 player map) but are a good indicator for a tech build if you can confirm they have taken their gas.
2) If you open 2gate robo and expand it will be harder to hold off the 1/1/1 than if you had 1gate or 1gate+robo expanded. Expanding off one gate is preferred as your expansion will have been running long enough to have paid for itself. A delayed expansion off a 2gate robo on the other hand would mean being 400 minerals + cost of probes down at the time of the attack unless you delay the push significantly.
I'm a little late to this party, but I've never had trouble with 1-1-1, and my solution is different than the ones listed in the OP.
I 1-gate FE (2 chrono on nexus at start and then the rest on WG and hallucination). My gateway production goes zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot. Get to 3 gates. At this point I should know if T is going bio expand, and I'll diverge from this plan. If T is still on 1 base, then forge shortly before hallucination finishes. Hallucination scout. If starport tech lab is active, cannons in both bases for detection. If still on 1 base, get to 6 gates all on 1 gas with I think about 40-45 probes. Mass zealots with about 3 sentries and about 4 stalkers. Make a pylon a ways out from your natural in an open space. Engage there to catch T off guard and unsieged. Use your sentry energy for guardian shield and forcefielding marines to help out your zealots, and focus the tanks with your stalkers. Reinforce with stalkers if you need more AA or zealots if there's still some army left. Win.
Note that I don't build a robo at all unless I have to deal with cloaked banshees, in which case the army is smaller.
On September 24 2011 23:34 kcdc wrote: I'm a little late to this party, but I've never had trouble with 1-1-1, and my solution is different than the ones listed in the OP.
I 1-gate FE (2 chrono on nexus at start and then the rest on WG and hallucination). My gateway production goes zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot. Get to 3 gates. At this point I should know if T is going bio expand, and I'll diverge from this plan. If T is still on 1 base, then forge shortly before hallucination finishes. Hallucination scout. If starport tech lab is active, cannons in both bases for detection. If still on 1 base, get to 6 gates all on 1 gas with I think about 40-45 probes. Mass zealots with about 3 sentries and about 4 stalkers. Make a pylon a ways out from your natural in an open space. Engage there to catch T off guard and unsieged. Use your sentry energy for guardian shield and forcefielding marines to help out your zealots, and focus the tanks with your stalkers. Reinforce with stalkers if you need more AA or zealots if there's still some army left. Win.
Note that I don't build a robo at all unless I have to deal with cloaked banshees, in which case the army is smaller.
My only problem with that is that by relying on static defense (The cannons) for detection means that cloaked banshees would have free reign away from your mineral line and would be able to snipe pylons, unpower gateways and be annoying in general before you robo finishes getting up. Do you usually have trouble with that, or not really?
On September 24 2011 23:34 kcdc wrote: I'm a little late to this party, but I've never had trouble with 1-1-1, and my solution is different than the ones listed in the OP.
I 1-gate FE (2 chrono on nexus at start and then the rest on WG and hallucination). My gateway production goes zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot. Get to 3 gates. At this point I should know if T is going bio expand, and I'll diverge from this plan. If T is still on 1 base, then forge shortly before hallucination finishes. Hallucination scout. If starport tech lab is active, cannons in both bases for detection. If still on 1 base, get to 6 gates all on 1 gas with I think about 40-45 probes. Mass zealots with about 3 sentries and about 4 stalkers. Make a pylon a ways out from your natural in an open space. Engage there to catch T off guard and unsieged. Use your sentry energy for guardian shield and forcefielding marines to help out your zealots, and focus the tanks with your stalkers. Reinforce with stalkers if you need more AA or zealots if there's still some army left. Win.
Note that I don't build a robo at all unless I have to deal with cloaked banshees, in which case the army is smaller.
My only problem with that is that by relying on static defense (The cannons) for detection means that cloaked banshees would have free reign away from your mineral line and would be able to snipe pylons, unpower gateways and be annoying in general before you robo finishes getting up. Do you usually have trouble with that, or not really?
Not too badly. I save up a lot of chrono so that I can get hallucination really fast to see cloak researching as early as possible. The cannons are there to tide me over until I can get an observer, and the cannon's detection range is actually pretty good. I sim-city my main for hellion harass at the start of every game anyway, so in the short window without mobile detection, I don't have a lot of vulnerable structures. Hallucination+forge is less efficient against a cloak rush into an all-in than going straight to robo, but I still like it better because:
(1) Most of the time, they don't research cloak, and it's better against the more common builds (2) Hallucination gets you a full scout earlier than robo (3) It allows you access to fast upgrades if T isn't going all-in (4) Beyond just offering detection, the cannons are very helpful for shutting down harass
On September 24 2011 23:34 kcdc wrote: I'm a little late to this party, but I've never had trouble with 1-1-1, and my solution is different than the ones listed in the OP.
I 1-gate FE (2 chrono on nexus at start and then the rest on WG and hallucination). My gateway production goes zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot. Get to 3 gates. At this point I should know if T is going bio expand, and I'll diverge from this plan. If T is still on 1 base, then forge shortly before hallucination finishes. Hallucination scout. If starport tech lab is active, cannons in both bases for detection. If still on 1 base, get to 6 gates all on 1 gas with I think about 40-45 probes. Mass zealots with about 3 sentries and about 4 stalkers. Make a pylon a ways out from your natural in an open space. Engage there to catch T off guard and unsieged. Use your sentry energy for guardian shield and forcefielding marines to help out your zealots, and focus the tanks with your stalkers. Reinforce with stalkers if you need more AA or zealots if there's still some army left. Win.
Note that I don't build a robo at all unless I have to deal with cloaked banshees, in which case the army is smaller.
My only problem with that is that by relying on static defense (The cannons) for detection means that cloaked banshees would have free reign away from your mineral line and would be able to snipe pylons, unpower gateways and be annoying in general before you robo finishes getting up. Do you usually have trouble with that, or not really?
Not too badly. I save up a lot of chrono so that I can get hallucination really fast to see cloak researching as early as possible. The cannons are there to tide me over until I can get an observer, and the cannon's detection range is actually pretty good. I sim-city my main for hellion harass at the start of every game anyway, so in the short window without mobile detection, I don't have a lot of vulnerable structures. Hallucination+forge is less efficient against a cloak rush into an all-in than going straight to robo, but I still like it better because:
(1) Most of the time, they don't research cloak, and it's better against the more common builds (2) Hallucination gets you a full scout earlier than robo (3) It allows you access to fast upgrades if T isn't going all-in (4) Beyond just offering detection, the cannons are very helpful for shutting down harass
Sounds awesome. Going to give this a try next PvT I get. Thanks man.
On September 22 2011 16:08 bankai wrote: Have a question!
In the OP it says that to defend 1-1-1 you must either 1 gate-robo-FE or 1-gate-FE-robo, but that either of these builds will die to 2rax.
I usually open 2gaterobo (gate-robo-gate) like MC does. The 2nd gate goes down straight after the robo. Assuming I dont get interrupted, I can put down an expansion as early as 36 supply (forgot the timing of this).
My question is - is this too late to react to 1-1-1? I am afraid that if I open 1 gate-robo-FE, then if it turns out to be a 2rax then I will die. But i rely on my obs to confirm if its 1-1-1 cos sometimes my stalker scout is not enough to conclude anything, but by the time my obs confirms what they are doing, I must have already committed to the 2gaterobo opening instead of 1gaterobo-FE.
you didn't read the whole post, did you?
OP stated clearly that the 2 initial sentries is to stop any 2 rax. That should be enough I guess.
no need to be rude.....
Perhaps i didnt frame my question very well. Will try again.
I want to clarify - do you have to commit to 1gaterobo-FE or 2gaterobo builds before you confirm its 1-1-1? In the OP "Scouting" section, it sounds like after using ur scouting probe, unless you are lucky and see a marauder or something, there are often times when you think there is a chance of 1-1-1 but not sure until the obs reaches their base.
But by the time the obs reaches the base, you must have already committed to an opening build. The OP does say that if you know its 2rax, then 1gaterobo-FE is not optimal, even though you would be able to hold it off with the 2sentries.
So to summarise my questions are: 1) Do you basically have to commit to a build before confirming its 1-1-1? 2) If I always open 2gaterobo and expand on 36supply (assuming no terran interuption), then if it turns out to be 1-1-1, will my expansion be too delayed to hold it off?
Thanks and sorry if there is something said about this already. Reading the OP i didnt see the answer to this but i may have overlooked.
1) Yes. You will have to commit to your build before getting confirmation that that he is 100% doing a 1/1/1 build. You do this based on scouting information. The reads you will need to make are contained in the "Scouting" section of the OP. This will not tell you 100% that they are doing a 1/1/1 build, especially if you are unable to get your probe into their base (a 4 player map) but are a good indicator for a tech build if you can confirm they have taken their gas.
2) If you open 2gate robo and expand it will be harder to hold off the 1/1/1 than if you had 1gate or 1gate+robo expanded. Expanding off one gate is preferred as your expansion will have been running long enough to have paid for itself. A delayed expansion off a 2gate robo on the other hand would mean being 400 minerals + cost of probes down at the time of the attack unless you delay the push significantly.
Are the "misinformation" in the OP really misinformation? They may not work all the time, but I've seen many of the tricks used to help fighting against 1-1-1. For example, I've seen pros stalling the push from all the way from T's base using forcefields/(blink) stalkers, buying time to crank out more units to fight. In those circumstances it basically came down to controls/engagement. If forcefields are used correctly, or you manage to distract T with your stalkers/phoenix, sometimes getting a tank snipe or two. But failfields or fail blinks will usually mean death sooner or later.
Often times the responses I hear is "that only works if the T sucks", but I disagree. No one plays perfect, and good players are capable of force out opponent's mistakes. It requires much more skill/effort from P, but it doesn't mean they are "misinformation", IMO.
On September 26 2011 08:42 usethis2 wrote: Are the "misinformation" in the OP really misinformation? They may not work all the time, but I've seen many of the tricks used to help fighting against 1-1-1. For example, I've seen pros stalling the push from all the way from T's base using forcefields/(blink) stalkers, buying time to crank out more units to fight. In those circumstances it basically came down to controls/engagement. If forcefields are used correctly, or you manage to distract T with your stalkers/phoenix, sometimes getting a tank snipe or two. But failfields or fail blinks will usually mean death sooner or later.
Often times the responses I hear is "that only works if the T sucks", but I disagree. No one plays perfect, and good players are capable of force out opponent's mistakes. It requires much more skill/effort from P, but it doesn't mean they are "misinformation", IMO.
I see what you're saying. There are alternative methods that can have success against the 1-1-1 and I've listed the most common ones in that section. However, most of the "misinformation" I quoted is indeed exactly that. Players commenting that rushing to Storm, having 3 Colossi at 9 minutes with Thermal Lance are simply incorrect. I do agree with you that a 1-1-1 can be stopped with other builds that implement Colossus, Phoenix play, etc. but I still strongly believe that a Zealot/ Immortal/ Sentry based army is the most flexible and safest. Blizzard's buff to the immortal further reinforces this theory.
On September 24 2011 23:34 kcdc wrote: I'm a little late to this party, but I've never had trouble with 1-1-1, and my solution is different than the ones listed in the OP.
I 1-gate FE (2 chrono on nexus at start and then the rest on WG and hallucination). My gateway production goes zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot. Get to 3 gates. At this point I should know if T is going bio expand, and I'll diverge from this plan. If T is still on 1 base, then forge shortly before hallucination finishes. Hallucination scout. If starport tech lab is active, cannons in both bases for detection. If still on 1 base, get to 6 gates all on 1 gas with I think about 40-45 probes. Mass zealots with about 3 sentries and about 4 stalkers. Make a pylon a ways out from your natural in an open space. Engage there to catch T off guard and unsieged. Use your sentry energy for guardian shield and forcefielding marines to help out your zealots, and focus the tanks with your stalkers. Reinforce with stalkers if you need more AA or zealots if there's still some army left. Win.
Note that I don't build a robo at all unless I have to deal with cloaked banshees, in which case the army is smaller.
This strategy can work but only against a significantly delayed 1-1-1. I don't see how you can get up to 40-45 probes with a decent army at the 8:00-9:00 minute mark. Early 1-1-1's can come at 8 minutes, at which point there is no way you will be able to support 6 gateways, even with a 1 gate - expand. More importantly, it will be very difficult to force mid map engagements against a Terran with cloaked banshees if you don't have an observer with your army. Please post a replay for further analysis, I'm curious to see how you deal with 1-1-1's that come closer to the 8 minute mark.
On September 24 2011 23:34 kcdc wrote: I'm a little late to this party, but I've never had trouble with 1-1-1, and my solution is different than the ones listed in the OP.
I 1-gate FE (2 chrono on nexus at start and then the rest on WG and hallucination). My gateway production goes zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot. Get to 3 gates. At this point I should know if T is going bio expand, and I'll diverge from this plan. If T is still on 1 base, then forge shortly before hallucination finishes. Hallucination scout. If starport tech lab is active, cannons in both bases for detection. If still on 1 base, get to 6 gates all on 1 gas with I think about 40-45 probes. Mass zealots with about 3 sentries and about 4 stalkers. Make a pylon a ways out from your natural in an open space. Engage there to catch T off guard and unsieged. Use your sentry energy for guardian shield and forcefielding marines to help out your zealots, and focus the tanks with your stalkers. Reinforce with stalkers if you need more AA or zealots if there's still some army left. Win.
Note that I don't build a robo at all unless I have to deal with cloaked banshees, in which case the army is smaller.
This strategy can work but only against a significantly delayed 1-1-1. I don't see how you can get up to 40-45 probes with a decent army at the 8:00-9:00 minute mark. Early 1-1-1's can come at 8 minutes, at which point there is no way you will be able to support 6 gateways, even with a 1 gate - expand. More importantly, it will be very difficult to force mid map engagements against a Terran with cloaked banshees if you don't have an observer with your army. Please post a replay for further analysis, I'm curious to see how you deal with 1-1-1's that come closer to the 8 minute mark.
I probably guessed a little high on the probe count. I probably actually cut probes in the 35-40 range now that I'm thinking about it. I believe I have 26 probes and a nexus started at 34/34 food, I make a couple more while the nexus is building, and then I think I make maybe about 8 after my nexus finishes. I probably have 2 probes each on 16 mineral patches with 3 probes on 1 gas geyser, so that'd be 35 probes. I'll upload a replay when I get a chance.
And as for cloaked banshees, you really don't see many Terrans bothering to tech cloak before going all-in. And when they do, the attack is later. I doubt I'll be able to get a replay with cloak any time soon.
On September 24 2011 23:34 kcdc wrote: I'm a little late to this party, but I've never had trouble with 1-1-1, and my solution is different than the ones listed in the OP.
I 1-gate FE (2 chrono on nexus at start and then the rest on WG and hallucination). My gateway production goes zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot. Get to 3 gates. At this point I should know if T is going bio expand, and I'll diverge from this plan. If T is still on 1 base, then forge shortly before hallucination finishes. Hallucination scout. If starport tech lab is active, cannons in both bases for detection. If still on 1 base, get to 6 gates all on 1 gas with I think about 40-45 probes. Mass zealots with about 3 sentries and about 4 stalkers. Make a pylon a ways out from your natural in an open space. Engage there to catch T off guard and unsieged. Use your sentry energy for guardian shield and forcefielding marines to help out your zealots, and focus the tanks with your stalkers. Reinforce with stalkers if you need more AA or zealots if there's still some army left. Win.
Note that I don't build a robo at all unless I have to deal with cloaked banshees, in which case the army is smaller.
This strategy can work but only against a significantly delayed 1-1-1. I don't see how you can get up to 40-45 probes with a decent army at the 8:00-9:00 minute mark. Early 1-1-1's can come at 8 minutes, at which point there is no way you will be able to support 6 gateways, even with a 1 gate - expand. More importantly, it will be very difficult to force mid map engagements against a Terran with cloaked banshees if you don't have an observer with your army. Please post a replay for further analysis, I'm curious to see how you deal with 1-1-1's that come closer to the 8 minute mark.
I probably guessed a little high on the probe count. I probably actually cut probes in the 35-40 range now that I'm thinking about it. I believe I have 26 probes and a nexus started at 34/34 food, I make a couple more while the nexus is building, and then I think I make maybe about 8 after my nexus finishes. I probably have 2 probes each on 16 mineral patches with 3 probes on 1 gas geyser, so that'd be 35 probes. I'll upload a replay when I get a chance.
And as for cloaked banshees, you really don't see many Terrans bothering to tech cloak before going all-in. And when they do, the attack is later. I doubt I'll be able to get a replay with cloak any time soon.
Thanks for getting back to me. What you're saying now sounds much more reasonable.
As for the lack of cloak, perhaps we've had differing experiences, but the exact 1-1-1 push I encounter more than any other is the one that MVP did against Tails in the recent GSTL match. Lots of Marines, 3-4 tanks, and 2-3 cloaked Banshees. Even if you crush the Marine-Tank portion of the 1-1-1, the banshees are usually retained by the Terran. Because the banshees are retained, the 2nd wave can be even harder to deal with due to the now 5-6 Banshee count. If you've been unable to kill any banshees to this point, you will need 1-2 Phoenix. I still strongly believe that Immortals are the key to stopping this push as opposed to mass gateway. The +1 range really really helps in preventing your Immortals from being focused down by marines before they are able to deal with the tanks. Blizzard has also emphasized in their situation notes that the Immortal range was specifically to address this.
On September 24 2011 23:34 kcdc wrote: I'm a little late to this party, but I've never had trouble with 1-1-1, and my solution is different than the ones listed in the OP.
I 1-gate FE (2 chrono on nexus at start and then the rest on WG and hallucination). My gateway production goes zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot. Get to 3 gates. At this point I should know if T is going bio expand, and I'll diverge from this plan. If T is still on 1 base, then forge shortly before hallucination finishes. Hallucination scout. If starport tech lab is active, cannons in both bases for detection. If still on 1 base, get to 6 gates all on 1 gas with I think about 40-45 probes. Mass zealots with about 3 sentries and about 4 stalkers. Make a pylon a ways out from your natural in an open space. Engage there to catch T off guard and unsieged. Use your sentry energy for guardian shield and forcefielding marines to help out your zealots, and focus the tanks with your stalkers. Reinforce with stalkers if you need more AA or zealots if there's still some army left. Win.
Note that I don't build a robo at all unless I have to deal with cloaked banshees, in which case the army is smaller.
This strategy can work but only against a significantly delayed 1-1-1. I don't see how you can get up to 40-45 probes with a decent army at the 8:00-9:00 minute mark. Early 1-1-1's can come at 8 minutes, at which point there is no way you will be able to support 6 gateways, even with a 1 gate - expand. More importantly, it will be very difficult to force mid map engagements against a Terran with cloaked banshees if you don't have an observer with your army. Please post a replay for further analysis, I'm curious to see how you deal with 1-1-1's that come closer to the 8 minute mark.
I probably guessed a little high on the probe count. I probably actually cut probes in the 35-40 range now that I'm thinking about it. I believe I have 26 probes and a nexus started at 34/34 food, I make a couple more while the nexus is building, and then I think I make maybe about 8 after my nexus finishes. I probably have 2 probes each on 16 mineral patches with 3 probes on 1 gas geyser, so that'd be 35 probes. I'll upload a replay when I get a chance.
And as for cloaked banshees, you really don't see many Terrans bothering to tech cloak before going all-in. And when they do, the attack is later. I doubt I'll be able to get a replay with cloak any time soon.
Thanks for getting back to me. What you're saying now sounds much more reasonable.
As for the lack of cloak, perhaps we've had differing experiences, but the exact 1-1-1 push I encounter more than any other is the one that MVP did against Tails in the recent GSTL match. Lots of Marines, 3-4 tanks, and 2-3 cloaked Banshees. Even if you crush the Marine-Tank portion of the 1-1-1, the banshees are usually retained by the Terran. Because the banshees are retained, the 2nd wave can be even harder to deal with due to the now 5-6 Banshee count. If you've been unable to kill any banshees to this point, you will need 1-2 Phoenix. I still strongly believe that Immortals are the key to stopping this push as opposed to mass gateway. The +1 range really really helps in preventing your Immortals from being focused down by marines before they are able to deal with the tanks. Blizzard has also emphasized in their situation notes that the Immortal range was specifically to address this.
Immortals are definitely useful. I don't typically use them for this push because you have to make an educated guess about what Terran is doing to have immortals out that early. If you're going FE and you see a quick reactor, you'll want to go straight to robo after your nexus to have a decent immortal count in time for a 1-1-1. But if you guessed wrong and T is actually doing a reactor + tech lab 2-rax pressure in front of an expansion, then you die. Also, while immortals are more efficient than gateway units for cost, there's about a 60 lag between when you invest your resources and when the immortal is in position to defend your expansion. Gateway units have a 5 second lag. In the early stages of the game, that makes a big difference.
Anyway, there can be lots of ways to solve the problem. I've been going 1 gate FE every game vs T since the beta, and I had to adapt to 1-1-1's early on. I haven't had trouble with those sorts of pushes in a long time, so it surprised me that people complain about them so much. I just wanted to share what works for me.
On September 24 2011 23:34 kcdc wrote: I'm a little late to this party, but I've never had trouble with 1-1-1, and my solution is different than the ones listed in the OP.
I 1-gate FE (2 chrono on nexus at start and then the rest on WG and hallucination). My gateway production goes zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot. Get to 3 gates. At this point I should know if T is going bio expand, and I'll diverge from this plan. If T is still on 1 base, then forge shortly before hallucination finishes. Hallucination scout. If starport tech lab is active, cannons in both bases for detection. If still on 1 base, get to 6 gates all on 1 gas with I think about 40-45 probes. Mass zealots with about 3 sentries and about 4 stalkers. Make a pylon a ways out from your natural in an open space. Engage there to catch T off guard and unsieged. Use your sentry energy for guardian shield and forcefielding marines to help out your zealots, and focus the tanks with your stalkers. Reinforce with stalkers if you need more AA or zealots if there's still some army left. Win.
Note that I don't build a robo at all unless I have to deal with cloaked banshees, in which case the army is smaller.
This strategy can work but only against a significantly delayed 1-1-1. I don't see how you can get up to 40-45 probes with a decent army at the 8:00-9:00 minute mark. Early 1-1-1's can come at 8 minutes, at which point there is no way you will be able to support 6 gateways, even with a 1 gate - expand. More importantly, it will be very difficult to force mid map engagements against a Terran with cloaked banshees if you don't have an observer with your army. Please post a replay for further analysis, I'm curious to see how you deal with 1-1-1's that come closer to the 8 minute mark.
I probably guessed a little high on the probe count. I probably actually cut probes in the 35-40 range now that I'm thinking about it. I believe I have 26 probes and a nexus started at 34/34 food, I make a couple more while the nexus is building, and then I think I make maybe about 8 after my nexus finishes. I probably have 2 probes each on 16 mineral patches with 3 probes on 1 gas geyser, so that'd be 35 probes. I'll upload a replay when I get a chance.
And as for cloaked banshees, you really don't see many Terrans bothering to tech cloak before going all-in. And when they do, the attack is later. I doubt I'll be able to get a replay with cloak any time soon.
Thanks for getting back to me. What you're saying now sounds much more reasonable.
As for the lack of cloak, perhaps we've had differing experiences, but the exact 1-1-1 push I encounter more than any other is the one that MVP did against Tails in the recent GSTL match. Lots of Marines, 3-4 tanks, and 2-3 cloaked Banshees. Even if you crush the Marine-Tank portion of the 1-1-1, the banshees are usually retained by the Terran. Because the banshees are retained, the 2nd wave can be even harder to deal with due to the now 5-6 Banshee count. If you've been unable to kill any banshees to this point, you will need 1-2 Phoenix. I still strongly believe that Immortals are the key to stopping this push as opposed to mass gateway. The +1 range really really helps in preventing your Immortals from being focused down by marines before they are able to deal with the tanks. Blizzard has also emphasized in their situation notes that the Immortal range was specifically to address this.
Immortals are definitely useful. I don't typically use them for this push because you have to make an educated guess about what Terran is doing to have immortals out that early. If you're going FE and you see a quick reactor, you'll want to go straight to robo after your nexus to have a decent immortal count in time for a 1-1-1. But if you guessed wrong and T is actually doing a reactor + tech lab 2-rax pressure in front of an expansion, then you die. Also, while immortals are more efficient than gateway units for cost, there's about a 60 lag between when you invest your resources and when the immortal is in position to defend your expansion. Gateway units have a 5 second lag. In the early stages of the game, that makes a big difference.
Anyway, there can be lots of ways to solve the problem. I've been going 1 gate FE every game vs T since the beta, and I had to adapt to 1-1-1's early on. I haven't had trouble with those sorts of pushes in a long time, so it surprised me that people complain about them so much. I just wanted to share what works for me.
You don't actually straight up die to 2-rax if you 1 Gate - Robo - FE. It will lead to a delayed expansion relative to the Terran, but it wont' be a build order loss. 1 Gate - FE - Robo would be a build order loss to a 2-rax.
I mention in my guide that against a 2-rax, a fast Robo is sub-optimal. It is preferred to have 3 Gates up to defend the 2-rax and put on pressure as well. I do agree that the lag in resources paying off can be detrimental and problematic. I think the lag time is a drawback you will have to accept though.
Either way, thanks for your feedback. I've seen your guides and know that you're well aware of what it takes to be a good Protoss player. As you said, there are many ways in which to deal with this build, I simply believe that the method I have detailed gives you the best chance.
First off I like this response to the 111 just some things I wanted to respond to hopefully my criticism and ideas are good. Dunno I dont generally do the 111 allin as I dont like doing allins so the replays you posted were my first time ever seeing it. (A note dunno if this problem happened to anyone else but replay 1 won't load for me)
The thing about all ins is there is usually not a safe transition out of it if you continue to rally units this doesn't feel very all inish to me. For example, in the third replay after the crushing defeat the terran player instead of rallying more units could of had his expo starting and rebuilt his bunker lifted off starport and start with medivacs (as you already have both geysers) and with the factory build a reactor so after the first medivac the starport could now have a reactor and then build to raxes on the two empty tech labs. This is not say you are not behind as the toss already has his expo but you would be by now means out of the game. + Show Spoiler +
He kind of tries this but only after attempting to force the 111 to work so he loses not only the initial attack but the reinforcements that carelessly left in the middle of the map and even then delayed it a bit. Then top it off he realized how far behind was and then really went all in but attacked right before stim finished the battle could have played out differently if he had pulled his scvs, had those additional units he lost in the middle of the map, and had waited for stim. Probably would of still lost but it would of been better for him.
On top of all this it seems to me that a hellion regardless of what type of 111 you do would be the first thing you would want to produce so you have a scout capable of seeing what types of units the protoss is building if this zealot/sentry composition does in fact turn out to be the best and the terran player knows this. If he sees that composition with the hellion he could just abandon the strat and switch to standard play. (Or mech if hes like me)
I saw yesterday the IPL , Huk vs alive in metalopolis, we can consider that huk was going for a blindly counter for the 1-1-1 all in. He made 1 gate -> expo -> 29/1 robo-> 30/2gate then started to cut probes at like 28 and Immortal first out the robo then an observer. Then since a blindly counter for it cutting probes and such leaves u behind in the game, he went for a push to justify the units he had in the game. Any comments in that strat? and I am always scared about my number of stalkers and the banshees, the terrans usually harass a bit the worker line with 1-2 banshees and then come with the push.
On October 07 2011 15:17 whereismymind wrote: Anyone tried 1Gate FE into chargelots +2 armor till 9 minutes for this? chargelots + few sentries + 1 canon at home for banshee. Is it viable?
This decimates marine scv army, free way to tanks, and for banshees we warpin stalkers near cannon after we clear ground army.
did u read the whole thread? u cant have all that at 9 minutes. If u do you should be already dead to banshees or 2rax. Its like teching to HTs
I just went against some deformed grotesque version of the 1/1/1. A blue flame hellion drop that wiped out half my probes into a 1/1/1. How do I defend that?
On October 17 2011 00:07 ProxyKnoxy wrote: I just went against some deformed grotesque version of the 1/1/1. A blue flame hellion drop that wiped out half my probes into a 1/1/1. How do I defend that?
If you defend well vs the drop, his push is pretty delayed, which means you will have more stuff when he eventually attacks. To defend the hellions, a (really) good simcity, making sure you have 2-3 stalkers per mineral line until you know what he's doing (ie the first obs arrives at his base) and getting gates 2 and 3 before the robo are the way to go imo.
I kinda reread your guide recently and I'd like to make a suggestion. You suggest 1 gate fe into robo as a viable counter, but I think it's a very risky unsafe counter. If your opponent goes for a hellion/marine/medivac opening, you will die with just a 1 gate fe into robo strategy. Similarly, if your opponent tricks you and goes 3 rax with a bunker, you can lose as well. Instead, the safe option would be 1 gate fe into 3 gates into robo. I don't know if you mean to do that, but I found it unclear in your guide.
On October 17 2011 05:35 NrGmonk wrote: I kinda reread your guide recently and I'd like to make a suggestion. You suggest 1 gate fe into robo as a viable counter, but I think it's a very risky unsafe counter. If your opponent goes for a hellion/marine/medivac opening, you will die with just a 1 gate fe into robo strategy. Similarly, if your opponent tricks you and goes 3 rax with a bunker, you can lose as well. Instead, the safe option would be 1 gate fe into 3 gates into robo. I don't know if you mean to do that, but I found it unclear in your guide.
I've been doing a mix of both : gate FE gate robo gate gate. I can't manage to find the timings for gate FE gate gate robo, I always seem to have gateways inactive for some time and don't like that ^^ whereas with 2 gates you can make constant units and afford the robo and the probes. Any thoughts on this Monk ?
On October 17 2011 05:35 NrGmonk wrote: I kinda reread your guide recently and I'd like to make a suggestion. You suggest 1 gate fe into robo as a viable counter, but I think it's a very risky unsafe counter. If your opponent goes for a hellion/marine/medivac opening, you will die with just a 1 gate fe into robo strategy. Similarly, if your opponent tricks you and goes 3 rax with a bunker, you can lose as well. Instead, the safe option would be 1 gate fe into 3 gates into robo. I don't know if you mean to do that, but I found it unclear in your guide.
I've been doing a mix of both : gate FE gate robo gate gate. I can't manage to find the timings for gate FE gate gate robo, I always seem to have gateways inactive for some time and don't like that ^^ whereas with 2 gates you can make constant units and afford the robo and the probes. Any thoughts on this Monk ?
I'm a waaaay worse player than you guys, but if you are up vs a tech all-in i think it's ok to have idle gates; at that stage in the game (7 ish) im more concerned about getting a good number of probes up, observers out on the map, a few immortals and my extra gates ready. Viceversa if i'm up against bio play i might cut the immortals to get a few more units. Overall, i find 3gate and then robo to be more flexible than trying to tech super fast.
On October 17 2011 05:35 NrGmonk wrote: I kinda reread your guide recently and I'd like to make a suggestion. You suggest 1 gate fe into robo as a viable counter, but I think it's a very risky unsafe counter. If your opponent goes for a hellion/marine/medivac opening, you will die with just a 1 gate fe into robo strategy. Similarly, if your opponent tricks you and goes 3 rax with a bunker, you can lose as well. Instead, the safe option would be 1 gate fe into 3 gates into robo. I don't know if you mean to do that, but I found it unclear in your guide.
I've been doing a mix of both : gate FE gate robo gate gate. I can't manage to find the timings for gate FE gate gate robo, I always seem to have gateways inactive for some time and don't like that ^^ whereas with 2 gates you can make constant units and afford the robo and the probes. Any thoughts on this Monk ?
If no early push comes, then your gateways should be idle. The purpose of the early 2 gates is so you can defend early pushes if they do indeed come. If you cut probes, i'm sure you can fully support production off of all 3 gates when you need to. The one specific push that you absolutely need the early 3 gates for is the 3 hellion 8 marine 1 medivac push, which you won't have enough units to kill without early 3 gates.
PS. I'm writing an updated guide on 1 gate fe soon.
Gate FE Gate Robo seems interesting to me - I've been having a lot of trouble dealing with early pressure. Will this cut into immortal production though? Also, do you prefer to always chrono gates or will you try to get WG research out ASAP against possible aggro.
PS. I'm writing an updated guide on 1 gate fe soon.
Honestly, I scout and see the Terran going 2rax, 1rax, whatever they do, and play it BW style, 1gate cybernetics, then a robo for observers(like I'm looking for spider mines) and then I start making them flying pylons and
You might also want to mention 15 Nexus as a possible opener on very large maps like TDA. Seems to be gaining a lot of popularity as of late and is surprisingly safe vs common early aggression on large maps, although it is pretty much insta-loss vs weird stuff like all-in scv rushes and proxy rax and the like. Although I guess you could also say you are far less likely to see 1/1/1 on very large maps as well.
On October 17 2011 05:35 NrGmonk wrote: I kinda reread your guide recently and I'd like to make a suggestion. You suggest 1 gate fe into robo as a viable counter, but I think it's a very risky unsafe counter. If your opponent goes for a hellion/marine/medivac opening, you will die with just a 1 gate fe into robo strategy. Similarly, if your opponent tricks you and goes 3 rax with a bunker, you can lose as well. Instead, the safe option would be 1 gate fe into 3 gates into robo. I don't know if you mean to do that, but I found it unclear in your guide.
I've been doing a mix of both : gate FE gate robo gate gate. I can't manage to find the timings for gate FE gate gate robo, I always seem to have gateways inactive for some time and don't like that ^^ whereas with 2 gates you can make constant units and afford the robo and the probes. Any thoughts on this Monk ?
I can (empirically) confirm that. From about half a dozen trial runs I've come to the conclusion that the robo (which you are already ideally chronoing 100% of the time) makes 2obs and 2 immortals with priority over gateways. About 2-3 rax, I feel 2 gate robo isn't any better than 1 gate robo (i.e. it just dies more or less to a commited 2/3 rax).
One thing I'm wondering about: what is the optimal probe count to do an FE on? I've been 30 nexusing, but that's kinda been a bit arbitrary.
anyone have any tips for differentiating between 2 rax expand builds and 1/1/1 as early as possible? i have trouble deciding whether to go gate/nexus/gate/gate/robo (ideal vs 2 rax) or getting an earlier robo (ideal vs 1/1/1). what do you guys look for with you first stalker? do you assume any build that gets gas and then bunkers the ramp is a 1/1/1 build, or can do 2 rax expand builds still do that?
On October 24 2011 13:33 rycho wrote: anyone have any tips for differentiating between 2 rax expand builds and 1/1/1 as early as possible? i have trouble deciding whether to go gate/nexus/gate/gate/robo (ideal vs 2 rax) or getting an earlier robo (ideal vs 1/1/1). what do you guys look for with you first stalker? do you assume any build that gets gas and then bunkers the ramp is a 1/1/1 build, or can do 2 rax expand builds still do that?
Well, if they put up a bunker with a 2 rax that's odd because a 2 rax is a pressure build and most terrans will move out with units after the first marauder comes out so there's no need to build a bunker at that timing. Also, this might not be true at all levels, but for a 2 rax they'll generally add a reactor immediately after the first marine, so the next 2 marines will be delayed while in a 1/1/1 they'll constantly pump marines at a steady rate. However, if you come back to check in later and they have like 5 marines that tells you nothing basically.
On October 24 2011 13:33 rycho wrote: anyone have any tips for differentiating between 2 rax expand builds and 1/1/1 as early as possible? i have trouble deciding whether to go gate/nexus/gate/gate/robo (ideal vs 2 rax) or getting an earlier robo (ideal vs 1/1/1). what do you guys look for with you first stalker? do you assume any build that gets gas and then bunkers the ramp is a 1/1/1 build, or can do 2 rax expand builds still do that?
Well, if they put up a bunker with a 2 rax that's odd because a 2 rax is a pressure build and most terrans will move out with units after the first marauder comes out so there's no need to build a bunker at that timing. Also, this might not be true at all levels, but for a 2 rax they'll generally add a reactor immediately after the first marine, so the next 2 marines will be delayed while in a 1/1/1 they'll constantly pump marines at a steady rate. However, if you come back to check in later and they have like 5 marines that tells you nothing basically.
This is an unfortunate situation that we have to deal with. Sometimes very tricky players (Taeja vs MC) will 2-rax while erecting a bunker to give the illusion of a possible 1/1/1 build. You get a little greedy, too early of a Robo and end up dying. The best you can do for yourself is continuous poking at the ramp of the Terran in an effort to get as much information as possible. Then make an educated guess. In my experience, Terrans in Bronze -> Low Masters on NA are all pretty easy to read in regards to 2-rax or 1/1/1.
A trick I use frequently is to time the re-entry of my probe. The first marine comes out at roughly 3:09 (in game time) so I will have my probe out of his base after the first initial scout, then slip it back in sometime between the building of the first and second marine. Though you will not always get a scout (wall-off) you can easily sneak past a marine that is not being micro'd. If you enter around this time, the 2nd barracks should have already begun constructing. Hopefully that helps a little.
Thanks for this great guide! I really like [G] Posts if they are as detailed as yours. Really nice job sir! I have a master Protoss friend that is struggling with the 1-1-1 build a lot..i already sent him the link to your post!
On December 29 2011 17:59 StarMega wrote: I've seen colossus be a viable counter to 1/1/1 can someone explain how exactly this works?
I've tried this only once and it sort of worked except the tanks were still there.
1 base Colossus doesn't work because the Terran can simply setup a contain on your natural and expand behind it. You have to expand against any half-decent 1-1-1.
On December 29 2011 17:59 StarMega wrote: I've seen colossus be a viable counter to 1/1/1 can someone explain how exactly this works?
I've tried this only once and it sort of worked except the tanks were still there.
As has also been stated, the Terran is forcing a loss onto himself if he continues the 1/1/1 into the main. He wins with an expansion of his own and careful play containing on the ramp or with bunkers at his natural. Now, I'm not gonna say every Terran will make this decision, because he can make his own judgement on whether you have the micro necessary to defend his attack. So he can throw the game away, but you can't force the win with 1base colossus.
On December 29 2011 17:59 StarMega wrote: I've seen colossus be a viable counter to 1/1/1 can someone explain how exactly this works?
I've tried this only once and it sort of worked except the tanks were still there.
As mentioned, 1base colossus is terrible vs 111, don't listen to Artosis :D
Really fast (as in, robo bay down the instant your robo is done) colossus off 1gate fe on the other hand is something that might potentially work (Cecil has a video with it on his youtube channel), IF the rush distances are REALLY long. As in, Tal'darim Altar long.
The problem with teching to anything at all against a 1base terran is that protoss tech is expensive as hell, so for a long while you leave a huge timing where you don't have many units that terran might hit, and you need every unit you can possibly spare to defend terran allins. If you get your tech up you are in amazing shape, if he scouts it (or just to attack sooner than you expect) you are kind of dead.
FWIW, White Ra also does 1 base colossus vs 111. I just saw him do it on his stream today. I noticed a couple of things about his play: - He was very aggressive with his first 4 stalkers and an observer (for vision) and killed several marines before the terran got tanks. - He did expand as his first colossus was making. - He had 2 ranged colossi as the terran moved out. He met him in the middle of the map before the terran could seige up. GG.
So what about players that open banshee expand and you cut workers in the low 30s? I lost my CSL ace match because of this, by the time he moved down his ramp he was ahead like 6 or 7 workers with a second cc up, and I was behind the rest of the game.
On January 27 2012 11:11 SkaPunk wrote: So what about players that open banshee expand and you cut workers in the low 30s? I lost my CSL ace match because of this, by the time he moved down his ramp he was ahead like 6 or 7 workers with a second cc up, and I was behind the rest of the game.
Yeah this has actually been happening to me a few times on ladder too. I usually just kind of go allin as they rarely have as high a marine count as they normally would at this time of they were allining and with 3 or 4 immortals and lots of zealots/sentries you can usually break it. I do this when I take more damage from his banshee harass than I'd like.
Imo FE into colossi is a hard counter to the standard marine-tank-banshee allin, but it's close to autoloss versus marine/hellion drop into marine-tank-banshee allin. You kinda have to go fast robo to get colossi in time to deal with the push, but if you do that you leave yourself open in a timing where you only have 1 gateway trying to defend 3 hellions, 7 marines, and a medivac. In that sense, it's a bit coin-flippy.
in the nexus first one he does that push you're talking about, but i'm able to see it coming with the probe scout. forces more stalkers than i would like, prompting me to get the 3rd gas
On January 30 2012 08:35 Alejandrisha wrote: in the nexus first one he does that push you're talking about, but i'm able to see it coming with the probe scout. forces more stalkers than i would like, prompting me to get the 3rd gas
That was a weird game. Partly because of the map, but mostly because of his execution, he hit you about 40 seconds later than he could have. You also scout his push coming very early. In that particular game, I think colossi after his push was a very good choice to hold off the 1-1-1 allin, but I'm still far from convinced that you can systematically hold off that push on a normal map with a generic expansion opening while still getting relatively fast colossi. Also, you got a 3 gas before seeing his push.
On January 30 2012 08:35 Alejandrisha wrote: in the nexus first one he does that push you're talking about, but i'm able to see it coming with the probe scout. forces more stalkers than i would like, prompting me to get the 3rd gas
That was a weird game. Partly because of the map, but mostly because of his execution, he hit you about 40 seconds later than he could have. You also scout his push coming very early. In that particular game, I think colossi after his push was a very good choice to hold off the 1-1-1 allin, but I'm still far from convinced that you can systematically hold off that push on a normal map with a generic expansion opening while still getting relatively fast colossi. Also, you got a 3 gas before seeing his push.
i like getting that 3rd gas regardless of whether or not i use it. i like to keep probes as low as possible, but if i'm going to opt for the colo way it's already there to use. if i want to do the gw immortal style, i'll just not use it. also if it's double port having that 3rd or 4th gas up already is nice in case i want to get phoenix as well. you're right in that it's not quite systematic. still a lot of testing to be done
Thank god for you QTIP! Thank God! I was hoping to find something to deal with the 111 as it is ALL that I have seen from terran lately, in fact it beat me so many times i was forced back into diamond but now I feel much more confident against it, awesome post, keep it up!
On January 27 2012 11:11 SkaPunk wrote: So what about players that open banshee expand and you cut workers in the low 30s? I lost my CSL ace match because of this, by the time he moved down his ramp he was ahead like 6 or 7 workers with a second cc up, and I was behind the rest of the game.
You don't get an obs in his base to scout the CC before you start cutting too many probes?
Diamond Protoss here. I am having trouble dealing with a newer version of this build, started with cloaked banshees and adding 2 extra naked rax. So it's more like a 3/1/1, but usually ends with more of the same composition at a later time, plus cloak.
I absolutely cannot beat it with just immortals as there seem to be simply too many marines.
Hi im having issues with a variety of variations of this, for reference im an over 900 point master.
So im curious on what people suggest here.
The 1/1/1 look alike timing except they go entirely pure marines and medivacs...
and also the 1/1/1 where they make 1 tank, and proceed to harrass with banshees etc. But the push will come with like 4+ banshees and a raven... This one really throws me off as I cant seem to ever kill a part of his army... Ill scout the tank and siege tech but have to leave due to raven. Cancels siege tech and goes mass banshee,marine, raven. I can only ever deal with the marines or the banshees and not survive the push. or the mass harassment that follows.
there is so many variation of 1-1-1... Yesterday i saw 2 versions of 1-1-1 way better than usual :
-> 8min40 : 3banshies (no cloak, 1 used only to hide the push) + 21 marines + 13vcs. When you scout 111 you usually have like 4stalker, 2 sentry, 2 zelots at this timming and die. If you know it's comming it's quite ez to kill, but i don't see how you can scout the 1gaz no tank in time so it's almost impossible to hold this.
-> 10mn30 : 5tank (no siege) 4 banshie (no cloak) 22 marines and 35 vcs. Even if i know it's comming, i'm not able to hold this shit. You can't even engage at the middle of the map because of no siege nor raven are needed to be effective.
the only way i see to beat 111 is to find a strong timming push or maybe some dt builds
On a 1gate FE to robo build, normally your first observer will arrive at his base fast enough to see the techlab starport(s) a good minute or two before the push starts. If there are two starports, which I've seen on the ladder (low-mid master Toss here), put down a stargate and chrono phoenix.. your first one will certainly arrive before the engagement, and hopefully you will be able to snipe the raven/banshees, or at least force a PDD. Even with one starport, I'd say building phoenixes are a good idea.. Stalkers are simply not good against 1-1-1, but are needed against banshees unless phoenix are out.
My main problem with all this is that i cant scout them fast enough. You can never know for sure what they're doing until your obs gets inside your base. I've often 1gate expanded and then died to 3 rax.
Poking with Stalker doesnt always give you enough info. Any tips?
On March 21 2012 04:43 Sandouras wrote: Hello everyone. First post!
My main problem with all this is that i cant scout them fast enough. You can never know for sure what they're doing until your obs gets inside your base. I've often 1gate expanded and then died to 3 rax.
Poking with Stalker doesnt always give you enough info. Any tips?
Thanks!
You should be poking with zealot stalker, and it will give you enough info.
If you are still unsure, keep poking every 30-40 secs, until you lose your zealot to concussive.
I know that this has been up for a while, but i just was soo excited yesterday, so i reqlly want to share my joy. So yea, this is a "Thank you" post.
Yesterday I had a game of PvT on Antiga and it was soo smooth. Never earlier I've managed to get this thing by a book, I've always screwed somewhere (I did won in some cases, but that's just beacause opponent was weaker). This time everything went perfect and the feeling was, as i've been 1 step ahead of my opponent.
When i scouted with probe, there was a rax and a gas building, i've kept probe inside of his base to see more, but saw no 2nd gas and got trapped =(. Anyways went for MC's 1gate and when poked with zealot-stalker, saw only building bunker and couple of rines, killed scv, while tanking damage with zealot and fleed. At that poit I really suspected 1-1-1 incoming, so had to pull a probe over to his natural ramp and also dropped a robo and chronoed observer. On arriving 1-1-1 got confirmed and i saw a tech lab on starport, with a research in it, unfortunately then i lost my obs, so had to chrono another to a total of 2. Warped in 2 stalkers (aleready had 2 at that point) and placed them with obs on mineral lines and in some seconds got visual of his banshee incoming and basically it did no damage (maybe 1 probe kill). Then i remembered about helion drop possibility and get few sentrys to main, but drop didn't come. After second immortal got my robo bay and twilight up. When first collossi was about to pop probe outside his nat was killed and i noticed some scv's fading. So i marched out to meet him halfway, in the middle was a small, fake engagement forcing him to go siege, but i was able to get few shots with colossi on his scv. When FF faded i've pulled back, spread my army, zealots got charge, and second coloss was on it's way.so next engagement was very deciding. Tankes shot throught my zealots obliderating them, marines were stimming to penetrate immortals and were burned alive by cosolli death rays. Banshees were working on colossi, but I've managed to keep one coloss alive and nexh zealot warpin cleaned up tanks.
I got another coloss, and a warpin of stalkers and went for his base. GG.
On March 18 2012 04:22 KiF1rE wrote: Hi im having issues with a variety of variations of this, for reference im an over 900 point master.
So im curious on what people suggest here.
The 1/1/1 look alike timing except they go entirely pure marines and medivacs...
and also the 1/1/1 where they make 1 tank, and proceed to harrass with banshees etc. But the push will come with like 4+ banshees and a raven... This one really throws me off as I cant seem to ever kill a part of his army... Ill scout the tank and siege tech but have to leave due to raven. Cancels siege tech and goes mass banshee,marine, raven. I can only ever deal with the marines or the banshees and not survive the push. or the mass harassment that follows.
Diamond toss also having the same problems, marine + raven + cloak banshee seems like the new style.
Phoenix against double starport? Then just a few sentry + zealots? How many stalkers are needed? Run out to force the PDD? Problem with doing this is it costs you a fair few units to banshee volley.
On June 05 2012 09:30 lorestarcraft wrote: Lately Naniwa has been doing a three gate pressure of a 1 gate expand where he gets 6 sentries and attacks. Is this safe vs the 1-1-1?
This should really only be done against a gasless fast expand so you shouldn't be doing this build in the first place.
There is a variation nowadays to the 1-1-1, i was wondering if anyone knew how to defend this? The terrans that i faced, went stim/siege/banshee and medivac. Really stronk, especially when scvs are pulled.
First of all, great thread to make the seemingly figured out 1-1-1 up for discussion.
I'm a high Platinum Terran, from my point of view the 1-1-1 is a build I throw out once in a while to break the standard Bomber build. What Protosses dont understand about the 1-1-1 is the underlying tactical implications the build does to the Protoss.
First of all, the composition can be tricky to deal with. As versatile the 1-1-1 is, its also very non-telling. Is it really going to be a doublegas siege-up at your ramp, or is it going to be a 1 gas hellion drop? Hellion + Banshee builds are different to deal with as well: + Show Spoiler +
and if executed well, the 1-1-1 has a high chance of winning/getting ahead.
Second of all, the 1-1-1 will force you to react (play defencively) and most of the time will force you to leave some units at home. Sometimes the Banshee hits while your Observer is on his way to the Terran base. The Terran will use the time bought to get up his bio transition, his engineering bays, possibly his third. The harassment, especially in the lower leagues, will be just once. At higher level, players repair banshees and send them right back in.
Third and last point, because of the seemingly limited buildorder forced to the Protoss, the Terran can assume you are going for the seemingly obvious transition into colossi (since you already have robo, and will face lots of marine/hellions/stimtiming followup). Many times the Terran will be prepared for Colossi, because of the time bought of the harass and because of the Collossi follow-up.
My advice to Protoss players; either identify the 1-1-1 and hit before it gets off (3 gate, 3gate proxy robo), OR play super defensive with double Observers and Stalkers in mineral-lines, followed by a few Immortals (if Tanks) into Collossi or Archons (Terran wont have ghost-tech up, beefy Archons do wonders).
I don't want to sound negative, but this thread is a bit obsolete compared to the meta game. The fact that it says "The idea behind this opening is knowing that you can skimp on units" when nowadays 4 helions harass is quite standard, should prove that you shoudn't follow it anymore. Though some of the main ideas are still valid, of course.
Yeah the big thing nowadays is the hellion/marine drop is pretty tough to hold with 1gate fe straight into robo, which forces you to basically make nonstop units from your gateway/warpgates for a while.
Other than that, this is the textbook way of holding it though.
On May 03 2012 21:34 Rimak wrote: I know that this has been up for a while, but i just was soo excited yesterday, so i reqlly want to share my joy. So yea, this is a "Thank you" post.
Yesterday I had a game of PvT on Antiga and it was soo smooth. Never earlier I've managed to get this thing by a book, I've always screwed somewhere (I did won in some cases, but that's just beacause opponent was weaker). This time everything went perfect and the feeling was, as i've been 1 step ahead of my opponent.
When i scouted with probe, there was a rax and a gas building, i've kept probe inside of his base to see more, but saw no 2nd gas and got trapped =(. Anyways went for MC's 1gate and when poked with zealot-stalker, saw only building bunker and couple of rines, killed scv, while tanking damage with zealot and fleed. At that poit I really suspected 1-1-1 incoming, so had to pull a probe over to his natural ramp and also dropped a robo and chronoed observer. On arriving 1-1-1 got confirmed and i saw a tech lab on starport, with a research in it, unfortunately then i lost my obs, so had to chrono another to a total of 2. Warped in 2 stalkers (aleready had 2 at that point) and placed them with obs on mineral lines and in some seconds got visual of his banshee incoming and basically it did no damage (maybe 1 probe kill). Then i remembered about helion drop possibility and get few sentrys to main, but drop didn't come. After second immortal got my robo bay and twilight up. When first collossi was about to pop probe outside his nat was killed and i noticed some scv's fading. So i marched out to meet him halfway, in the middle was a small, fake engagement forcing him to go siege, but i was able to get few shots with colossi on his scv. When FF faded i've pulled back, spread my army, zealots got charge, and second coloss was on it's way.so next engagement was very deciding. Tankes shot throught my zealots obliderating them, marines were stimming to penetrate immortals and were burned alive by cosolli death rays. Banshees were working on colossi, but I've managed to keep one coloss alive and nexh zealot warpin cleaned up tanks.
I got another coloss, and a warpin of stalkers and went for his base. GG.
Again thanks, this guide is awesome.
Just revisiting this guide after a year, and wanted to say I am thrilled that you found it useful!