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On August 29 2011 16:57 Yakob wrote: Before you read any further, id like you to know Im in silver league, so feel free to disregard everything i say.
To be honest, depending on the map i could see this strategy being fairly useful against zerg if its the first couple times they face it. i would recommend throwing a stalker in early to hunt down the scouting overlord/drone that would be allowed to see everything thats going on. i suggest stalker because they have a high DPS then sentry, more mobile and cheaper then cannons around your bases, and they are relatively low on gas. if you dont then the zerg player could pretty much see everything that is going on in your base. personally, if i see a FFE i throw down several spine crawlers in my base (I am terrified of cannon rushes). if i didnt scout any probe or pylon in my main or my natural and i saw a second gateway go down instead of a core, the natural response i guess would be to move the spines to the front of my base, throw down a baneling nest, and other then a few lings pump drones hard because in my experience the reason most protoss FFE is to get the extra gas, not the minerals, and if a second gateway goes down before the core then something seems really off (which considering im in silver league wouldnt be a big surprise)
of course, this is my strategy after reading this thread and having a few minutes in real life to mull it over. in game, I would probably die.
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well the idea is you delay your cyber core to get out a second gate and a zealot, so a fast stalker isnt really a possibility. It is true he could scout you going the zealot build, and prepare for it with spines/lings/even fast teching to roaches but the point is, he still has to stop making drones and spend larvae and minerals to prepare for the attack much sooner then he would vs another build aka 6 gate blink. So if you run into mass spines you retreat your zealots, and know he cant take a 3rd. If you run into mass ling you know his drone count is lower then it otherwise would have been- if you run into roaches you know he used 150 and a drone on a roach warren, spent time mining gas with drones as opposed to minerals, then spent larvae and minerals and gas on roaches, not drones, all the while you're building probes off 2 bases. so even if he scouts it, and you kill nothing with your push, its GUARANTEED DAMAGE and i like it because its pretty much the earliest pressure you can put on (I think early pressure is nessecary in pvz and the standard 6 gate 2 base timings are too slow because z already has a significant lead by then). Also it gives the toss scouting information seeing what units kill him off.
From a Z point of view I think the best thing to do is to make a minimal number of roaches to hold it off and leave some lings at his potential 3rds to make sure he doesnt expo, while taking your own third. however I dont think this puts the toss behind by any means.
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Hello there :D
I found this thread amazing, thank you VEEEEEEEEERY VERY VERY MUCH!
My PvZ is a mess right now. Actually, I am terrified of PvZ right now. I've been trying some 1-Gate-Stargate builds, but although they've worked quite well at first, they're dying way too fast to 4-5 Queens at the moment. That number of Queens really messes up any harassment my Void Rays should be able to do (although my control is pretty terrible at times).
So, I've not yet tried your build (gonna try it as soon as I finish writing this). However, as others have already pointed out, I believe it leaves you a little bit vulnerable to roaches, does it not? By watching one of your replays, I've noticed a window when your opponent could have done a lot of damage to you with his roaches, just before your first Warp Prism popped out.
By the way, since I'm a newbie, I have to ask: how does this build fares against a lot of early speedlings? Say they try and run by your wall, then they get reinforced by more speedlings. What should you do? And one last question: how do you stop a baneling bust with this?
I'm asking that because every time a Zerg sees me Fast Expoing, he either roach-all-ins me or baneling busts me. I'm kinda tired of losing to Zergs >.>
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On August 29 2011 21:20 Avan wrote: Hello there :D
I found this thread amazing, thank you VEEEEEEEEERY VERY VERY MUCH!
My PvZ is a mess right now. Actually, I am terrified of PvZ right now. I've been trying some 1-Gate-Stargate builds, but although they've worked quite well at first, they're dying way too fast to 4-5 Queens at the moment. That number of Queens really messes up any harassment my Void Rays should be able to do (although my control is pretty terrible at times).
So, I've not yet tried your build (gonna try it as soon as I finish writing this). However, as others have already pointed out, I believe it leaves you a little bit vulnerable to roaches, does it not? By watching one of your replays, I've noticed a window when your opponent could have done a lot of damage to you with his roaches, just before your first Warp Prism popped out.
By the way, since I'm a newbie, I have to ask: how does this build fares against a lot of early speedlings? Say they try and run by your wall, then they get reinforced by more speedlings. What should you do? And one last question: how do you stop a baneling bust with this?
I'm asking that because every time a Zerg sees me Fast Expoing, he either roach-all-ins me or baneling busts me. I'm kinda tired of losing to Zergs >.>
Either of those 2 things can be countered by MOAR CANNONS, its expensive, sure, but if he's roach all inning you or baneling all inning you then if you make just enough cannons to hold it off you'll be in good shape-zealot/cannon is pretty cost effective against both of those xD
The question I would have is, how do you Forge FE on typhon peaks? It doesnt seem reasonable, or how do you transition into this from a 1 base build? at the moment I'm doing a 4 zealot pressure (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254510 ish) off 3 gate into expo but the upgrades being later is killer.
edit: on non forge FE maps, shattered temple etc, if he 6 pools you, you lose? or?
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Did this build in concept today while laddering (i.e. didnt strictly adhere to the build order but rather adhered to the principle) and had the most fucking epic win. Chrono'd 3 zeals for some initial harass and unit forcing and then proceeded to drop/warp zeals into the main mineral line. The drone deaths were glorious to behold. The harass also revealed the zerg to be going for a 2 base roach/ling all in which I proceed to hold in spite of losing my natural. I counter and several battles later emerge victorious. When I watched the replay, it turns out the initial drop caught him with his entire army in front of my base which he then proceeded to move back to his main to deal with the zeals choppin drone heads off like fucking butchers. Finally some cost efficient Protoss harassment. Who knew it was so simple?
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On August 28 2011 07:13 Nyast wrote: Dunno, I just lost to it, my first try, and he didn't over-react to my attack ( I even surprised him, had 5 zealots when he scouted only 2 ). He got his 3 first mutas by 8'30, and had 12 around 9'. In that game I only opened with early pressure and transitionned something else entirely ( stargates ), but timing wise he would have had 12 mutas on the field by the time my prism would have arrived in his base if I had followed your build. In the replay I noticed he rushed to mutas though, no useless zerglings, no defenses, nothing else.
That's why I believe this build is very dangerous: he sees you're only making zealots, so a natural reaction is to go fast mutas, because:
1. You'll be late on the stalkers count ( this is what happened to me when mutas arrived in my base, I warped stalkers but it was too late to prevent the harass, actually he snipped pylons and I couldn't keep my stalkers prod.. ).
2. If you're only making zealots, it implies you're teching to something else: either air ( which mutas counter ), or heavy robo ( which mutas counter ), so in both case mutas are a wise decision..
mutas don't counter air...? unless you go pure void.
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On August 28 2011 12:23 Noumena wrote:I am not exactly sure what you mean by "don't have much tech/base defense." You should have a Twilight Council and a Robotics Facility, this allows you to transition into Blink Stalkers, Charge Zealots, Immortals, Templar, DTs, and Colossus. Pretty much you already have the Tier 2 to cover any tech into Tier 3. As far as losing your Warp Prism to queens or spores, then that is simply a fault in your micro, and really that's more of a mechanics issue than a build issue. Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 10:13 xomel wrote: also, what most people dont realize is that with spending all these minerals youre going to pool a bunch of gas and be able to easily throw up that templar archives and with a couple archons in your base you can almost completely shut down muta harassment while warping in chargelots to harass This pretty much says it all. You are spending minerals on Warp Prisms/Zealots, but not gas. Archons with +2 Weapons and +1 Armor will absolutely rip apart Hydras/Roaches. If you see he has a couple Roaches to clean up your Zealots, start making Immortals while you continue to harass. I'll upload a couple of replays and edit this post once I have them. + Show Spoiler +http://www.mediafire.com/?3lsj2k2mju1upcq
but can't mutas kite archons?
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Pretty much what DrKillFace said is how you handle early all-in aggression. Use the Zealots to keep any ling/bling or roach at bay, and get as many free cannon shots off as you can. Don't be afraid to over produce , since they are all-in.
As for Typhon Peaks, I honestly don't play the map. However, I would suggest doing a standard 3 gate with whatever opening you'd like into Forge and then a Robotics. Continue as normal after that. You get slower upgrades sure, but you don't die. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff
Oh , and my name is in reference to the band.
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On August 30 2011 00:01 Noumena wrote:Pretty much what DrKillFace said is how you handle early all-in aggression. Use the Zealots to keep any ling/bling or roach at bay, and get as many free cannon shots off as you can. Don't be afraid to over produce , since they are all-in. As for Typhon Peaks, I honestly don't play the map. However, I would suggest doing a standard 3 gate with whatever opening you'd like into Forge and then a Robotics. Continue as normal after that. You get slower upgrades sure, but you don't die. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff Oh , and my name is in reference to the band.
good taste in music you have there \m/
after playing this all day I'm starting to realise its very dependant on upgrades, it makes your drops so much more effective (esp positioned behind the mineral line etc) and it means your army at home with defensive positioning can hold just about any all in- because of this I've been delaying my 3rd a little and getting a second forge after my TC and charge has started, taking my dt shrine (or TA) about the time I take my 3rd. I also dont think a TA is needed for feedback in this case as double upped zealot archons + immortals if they have roaches shreds any infestor comp, so I've been getting a dt shrine for even more harass and its been working well.
expanding on maps that arent taldarim or shakuras though, I always feel like if he 6 pools me, I'm dead hasnt happened yet but wondering how to deal with this? ty
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Most zergs in diamond spore their mineral lines and build an extra queen as blind DT and air defense when they see a FFE. Does it effectively defend the warp prism play? I usually find it very difficult to get an air unit into a zerg main without getting spotted by an overlord and having 2-3 queens and a repositioning spore waiting for me. How is a prism easier to get in than a void ray?
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Got it works one out of 3 times for me. Nice strategy, I am loving it and will refine my skill around it to make my execution better. One lesson I learnt so far is, to maximize the effect of this build, constant harassment is important!
Anyway, still have a few problem on some maps, like shattered temple and xelnaga carvern, do we still FFE? It seemed very risky as a full wall is quite far away.
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Someone tried this on ladder; I crushed him.
However; I do think I crushed him not because the tactic is bad, but because I just have better mechanics/speed apm. (I'm mid platinum; he was high gold.) The fact that I scouted his zealots moving down didn't help though. (I also managed to get two lings in his main taking down a pylon and a probe also didn't help, I presume.)
It didn't feel to strong though, but that might be because I scouted the zealots and was able to do some early game damage.
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In all fairness, if you were able to take down a pylon with two lings, then I think it's safe to assume he wasn't that good. This strat requires semi high APM and a decent grasp on mechanics.
As for the spore and queens,. Multiple pronged attacks. He can't have 6 queens ready to defend everything. If he does, you're ahead.
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On August 28 2011 05:50 Nyast wrote: Cool, I particularly like the 2-gate zealots pressure, that's forcing a lot of lings from the Zerg and if you can surprise him, you can do tremendous damage with them.
As ffor the prisms, the idea is cool and it seems to work well but wouldn't it be an auto loss versus a Zerg that goes mutas ? Do you have any replay with mutas on 2 bases ? It sounds like they'd arrive at the same timing your harass starts.
Ever watched a TvZ before? Just because zerg builds mutalisks doesn't mean warp prisms/medivacs are rendered useless. The templar tech path that the OP suggests with this build will brilliantly counter 2 base muta play, due to the relatively quick blink and archons. Phase prisms actually are safer than when doing drops than medivacs are, because you never have to worry about units being sniped off in transit. Simply send over an empty prism, and once it safely arrives start to warp in units in the fog.
Think like a terran does though. Never blindly send a single drop, either send 2 drops at a different locations, or send 1 drop as you push out. Or, to be fancy, you can even sneak out a drop when the mutas are in your base. But sending out blind singular drops is asking for zerg to pick them off.
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On August 29 2011 23:52 Fall.182 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 12:23 Noumena wrote:I am not exactly sure what you mean by "don't have much tech/base defense." You should have a Twilight Council and a Robotics Facility, this allows you to transition into Blink Stalkers, Charge Zealots, Immortals, Templar, DTs, and Colossus. Pretty much you already have the Tier 2 to cover any tech into Tier 3. As far as losing your Warp Prism to queens or spores, then that is simply a fault in your micro, and really that's more of a mechanics issue than a build issue. On August 28 2011 10:13 xomel wrote: also, what most people dont realize is that with spending all these minerals youre going to pool a bunch of gas and be able to easily throw up that templar archives and with a couple archons in your base you can almost completely shut down muta harassment while warping in chargelots to harass This pretty much says it all. You are spending minerals on Warp Prisms/Zealots, but not gas. Archons with +2 Weapons and +1 Armor will absolutely rip apart Hydras/Roaches. If you see he has a couple Roaches to clean up your Zealots, start making Immortals while you continue to harass. I'll upload a couple of replays and edit this post once I have them. + Show Spoiler +http://www.mediafire.com/?3lsj2k2mju1upcq but can't mutas kite archons?
They both have range 3, so I wouldn't think so.
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I'd like to know what your credentials are, no offense
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On August 29 2011 23:52 Fall.182 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 12:23 Noumena wrote:I am not exactly sure what you mean by "don't have much tech/base defense." You should have a Twilight Council and a Robotics Facility, this allows you to transition into Blink Stalkers, Charge Zealots, Immortals, Templar, DTs, and Colossus. Pretty much you already have the Tier 2 to cover any tech into Tier 3. As far as losing your Warp Prism to queens or spores, then that is simply a fault in your micro, and really that's more of a mechanics issue than a build issue. On August 28 2011 10:13 xomel wrote: also, what most people dont realize is that with spending all these minerals youre going to pool a bunch of gas and be able to easily throw up that templar archives and with a couple archons in your base you can almost completely shut down muta harassment while warping in chargelots to harass This pretty much says it all. You are spending minerals on Warp Prisms/Zealots, but not gas. Archons with +2 Weapons and +1 Armor will absolutely rip apart Hydras/Roaches. If you see he has a couple Roaches to clean up your Zealots, start making Immortals while you continue to harass. I'll upload a couple of replays and edit this post once I have them. + Show Spoiler +http://www.mediafire.com/?3lsj2k2mju1upcq but can't mutas kite archons? They used to, if you had 100% perfect micro. Now they both have a range of 3, so no.
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Really appreciate all the feedback and discussion. Didn't expect this strategy to be received so well.
On August 30 2011 01:42 Stropheum wrote: I'd like to know what your credentials are, no offense
I don't necessarily like to throw out names of "pro" players that I have beaten, mainly because I don't particularly see that as something classy or respectful. If you absolutely must know, the game I am most proud of is when I beat CheckPrime(bbaboomPrime on NA) in a 30minute game on Xel'Naga Caverns in a ZOTAC Cup NA. As for ladder, like I said in my OP, I am High Masters/GM. I say "/GM" because I could have been Grandmaster if I didn't use the Ladder as my testing grounds, sorry for the excuse but its the truth. =/
Keep on posting results/feedback, it makes my day I'll also be trying to work on a PvT build order involving Warp Prisms for anyone who is interested.
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Thank you sooo much for this thread Noumena!
I've been watching all your replays like twice, first was I was curious about your late scouting concerning early pools, but you replied to these thoughts already in this thread. :-)
I've been trying this out the last two days a little bit myself, since i like to put on pressure to the zerg (I've been using zealots while feing to pressure the zerg myself, also starting +1 asap even before wg tech but your gas timings+cyber timing works much better. I really like that you use chargelot+immo+archon as a main unit composition vs the current common zerg styles of roach-ling, roach-infestor etc. However, I've had problems with zergs not getting a fast third and quickly getting their roach warren and not letting me get up my 3rd base. Do you have maybe more replays of you showing your style vs early roaches? Do you add a 2nd robo earlier in that case? Or do you just keep dropping hardcore and trying to snipe drones/queens/tech/hatches?
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Lets say for instance the Zerg defends your attack and decides to make a few corruptors to fend off other possible drops ( keeping them outside the edges of your base to snipe the prisms )?
I haven't tested this out yet but usually when I play against Zerg they usually have like 3ish corruptors out just in case.
Just another possibility they can do.
Great post though I like it from reading it and will definitely test it tonight :D
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That wouldn't be effective in any sense, craziekev. You wouldn't just get Phoenixs to surround your base to defend from drops. It is a huge investment for a Zerg to get a Spire, 200/200, and then Corruptors, 150/100??x3, just to defend a Warp Prism for 200 minerals. If this does happen though, there is a reason you have multiple Warp Prisms. They can't be everywhere at once, and with the power of warping in, you can.
Fairwell, in the case of an early roach warren, of course I throw down an early cannon, and only use one Warp Prism if I fear an attack or early aggression. Instead, I will be making mass Immortals/chargelots. I keep the Warp Prism alive for as long as possible, and drop in multiple locations, trying to steer away from the roaches as much as possible, and once Charge is finished, I continue to warp in mass Zealots. At this time , I take my third and do a push out with my main army. I'll upload a replay of this in a bit.
Edit: Updated the replay section with it
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