I win about 75% of my PvT's against equally skilled opponents using this build. Checking through my match history, I know I've won at least my last 10 consecutive PvT's. I'm not a pro by any means--to give you an idea of my level of play, my ladder opponents range from Top 10 Masters to high GM on the NA server. I usually play against people with double or triple my APM which goes a long way toward explaining why my PvP is so bad.
Also, I know that some people get annoyed when guide-writers put their handles in the topic line. Please understand that I mean the title in the most modest way--this is a guide for how I personally play PvT. It's a general PvT guide, so I don't have a good descriptive title to give it. I know that some of the stuff that's in the guide is pretty standard. For example, I'm not breaking any ground with my 1-1-1 defense. I'm just putting forth a general PvT guide that covers most of my decision making for a PvT match from start to finish.
Opening Build Order:
13 gate (3x chronoboost on probes at start) 15 gas 18 core (send scout on 4 player maps) 19 zealot 22 pylon (send scout on 2 player maps) 23 stalker and WG tech (3 chrono total on WG tech) 27 nexus (at 26 food, rally nexus to natural. The probe will reach the natural right on time) 28 gateway 28 sentry 31 pylon
This is a nice, economically aggressive but safe 1 gate FE. It gets you more economy than most comparably safe expand builds.
Here's where we hit our first branching. Your scouting probe should have found T's base by now, but be attentive with your scouting and make sure to keep your probe alive! Walk your zealot toward T's base and rally your stalker to your zealot. Send your probe into T's natural just ahead of your zealot and stalker. The probe will probably die, but it's better than losing your stalker to a marauder. If there's just a few marines holding the ramp at your natural, perhaps with a bunker, run your zealot past these to see if there's a CC. Sacrificing a zealot is annoying, but it's worth it to confirm the gasless FE.
Branches:
If you see a marauder or any other signs of an early attack:
The third gateway goes down at 5:20. This 3 gate times out surprisingly smoothly and can be used for defense or offense. The second zealot (started at 32 supply), the 2nd gate and WG research all finish at exactly 5:50 if you did everything perfectly. Convert the gates to WG's, and warp in 2 units at 6:00. (In most of my games, it winds up being 6:10 or slightly later because I don't macro perfectly) The third gate finishes at 6:25 and is a WG at 6:35 which lines up perfectly for a 3 unit warp in at 6:35. This gives you 9 gateway units by 6:40 which is 100% guaranteed to be stronger than whatever Terran can have at your base by this time.
The only thing that can give you trouble is letting T get bunkers before 6:40. A bunker takes 40 seconds to complete and most Terran pressure won't hit your base until 6:10 or later, so you'll have plenty of time to clean up with either your 6 unit timing at 6:10 or your 9 unit timing at 6:40. Just make sure to be aware of any sneakily building SCV's near your nexus before the army shows up. If T does a fast tech lab build to defend an early bunker with concussive shell marauders, pull 4 probes and kill the push at 5:40.
Whenever you feel comfortable, you can get a robo and go for either the CreatorPrime double forge style, an immortal push, or a colossus push. Alternatively, if you think T is expanding behind the push, you can add 2-4 (5-7 total) more gates and go for a gateway counter. Another option is to get a forge for +1 armor and go chargelot/archon. I don't recommend teching straight to storm quickly as it may come out too late and get you killed against a medivac all-in follow-up.
If you see nothing at the natural and signs point to 1-1-1:
32 zealot (1 chronoboost) 34 robo 34 assimilator
Pull your troops back to your natural. Use your 2 unit warp-in at 6:00 to warp 2 stalkers in to defend your mineral line in your main. Remember to actually put the stalkers IN the mineral line because it's going to be really annoying when hellions drop somewhere you don't expect and get free shots while your stalkers walk over. Build pylons at the normal times, but be sure to spread them to spot incoming drops and banshees. Send a probe to monitor T's natural, and chronoboost 2 observers as soon as your robo finishes.
Take your third gas, and continue warping in stalkers and zealots. You want to prioritize stalkers as gas allows until you have about 6 for harass-defense. After ~6 stalkers, you want to favor zealots as they're better for defeating the eventual push. Keep 3 stalkers in each mineral line until the push comes. Get 3 more gates (total of 5) and cut probe production entirely when you reach ~38 workers.
If it's a normal 1-1-1 with tanks, get an immortal after 2 observers and then spend your next 200 gas on a robo support bay. Having a colossus is important for beating late all-ins at 12:30 or later because the marine ball will get too big with too little surface area to beat it consistently with just zealots+guardian shield. If the push leaves earlier, you can just cancel the support bay to get out a couple extra units. Pull some probes off of gas as you'll mostly need zealots from this point on.
If it's a 2-port banshee all-in, get a forge and a stargate. Cannon the crap out of your natural, get some phoenixes, and then get a support bay if he's just chilling outside your natural. If you have enough cannons, he can't push without tanks, and you'll have a colossus by the time he can start sieging your cannons.
Kill whatever push he sends your way and collect your victory.
If it's cloaked banshee into expansion instead of an all-in, do a 2 colossus timing with thermal lance.
If you scout gasless FE:
31 forge 32 zealot 34 assimilator 35 assimilator (third assimilator is obviously at natural)
At 6:10, warp in a zealot and a sentry and start +1 armor. Fill 2nd and 3rd assimilators. Continue hitting your warp-gate cycles right on time--you're staying on 2 gates for a LONG time and you can't afford to cut production. Your 6:40 warp-in cycle will also be a zealot and a sentry, and then all subsequent warp-ins will be zealots only. Constantly build probes, zealots, pylons and always keep your forge chronoboosted.
You should have your first free 150 minerals at approximately 7:20--build a twilight council and start +1 weapons.
Sit your zealot/sentry army at your natural and keep your stalker active on the map. Hold a watchtower and scout his front. If you don't see a marauder by 8 minutes, get a robo because he could be getting 2-base cloaked banshees.
Note that having the stalker out on the map is important for scouting naked barracks marine pushes. You can get a few potshots with the stalker, and then pull back to crush the marines with zealots, forcefields and guardian shield. Assuming you haven't missed your warp-in cycles, as long as you see it coming to get your forcefields ready, you'll crush the push and take a huge lead. Off of 2 gate zealot production, I've defended as many as 6 naked rax of marines, and for smaller 4 rax pushes, I'm somtimes able to clean up the marines without losing a unit. I win basically 100% of the time when T does one of these misguided attacks.
When the twilight council finishes, build a templar archives and take your 4th gas. Start charge at 200 gas and chronoboost it twice. Start storm with your next 200 gas and chronoboost it to completion. Spend any extra chronoboost on your forge. Your next 450 gas will go to 2 templar and +2 armor--get them in order each time you reach 150 gas.
You will have charge, storm, 2 templar with 75 energy, and +1/+1 with +2 armor on the way by 10:30 or earlier. This timing is very important because the 2 medivac timing that every Terran does off of gasless FE hits at about 10:30. If you have your tech and upgrades done on time, assuming decent control, you'll be able to crush the push solidly.
Note that the spending between 8 and 10 minutes is very gas-heavy. This leaves you with a surplus of minerals which you will spend on gateways and a third nexus in some order. The third nexus will be dropped between approximately 10:00 and 10:30.
In general, I recommend getting to 6 gateways as you warp in your 1st 2 templar and then starting your third nexus. This is good on a map like Shakuras Plateau where the third base is kind of far away, and it gets the nexus started shortly before 10:30. Alternatively, you can take your third nexus after your 4th gate which gets the nexus timing into the lower 10's. This is good for maps with a relatively close third like Cloud Kingdom. On Entombed Valley, you can actually take the third nexus off of 2 gates under 10 minutes.
After you have 6 gates and your third base started, build a robo when resources allow, and then add 4 more gates up to a total of 10. By about 13 minutes, you should be out on the map holding a central watch tower with 1 templar in each base for drop defense. Take 2 probes and build pylons all over the map. 1 probe should build probes in areas that will be useful to reinforce your army and the other should build pylons all over for map vision.
When your robo finishes, build an observer and then a warp prism. The warp prism is there to distract your opponent's focus so that you can get storms off on his main army before he EMP's. Your army at 12-14 minutes should be out on the map threatening to attack before the prism hits the field, and you'll be plenty strong to attack if you can gain a good position (try sneaking a few zealots around to his third to pull his troops out of position and distract his focus), but the warp prism can go a long way toward winning you a good jump for an attack. I recommend putting 1 HT and 1 probe in the prism so that you can support your chargelot drop with a storm and you can beef up your warp-in options by dropping pylons in his bases.
This part of the game will feel hectic. You'll often find yourself dropping his main, attacking his third or fighting over a watch tower, and defending your bases from drops all at the same time.
While you're doing all of this, make sure to start +2 weapons, +3 armor and then +3 weapons on time. It's very easy to forget to keep upgrading, so don't be afraid to queue them up ahead of time. It's bad to queue, but it's worse to not upgrade.
After starting +2 weapons, you'll want to think about taking a fourth and adding a robo support bay. The timing on the support bay will depend on the game. In general, it will come while +2 weapons is researching and about the same time that you take your 4th base. If he has a lot of ghosts and you can't get much done with HT, get colossi before your 4th. If your fights are going well and you're thinning out his ghost count, you can delay colossi to take a fourth while you punish his low ghost count with zealot/archon.
For the colossus transition, I don't recommend waiting till you see too many ghosts and then making a 180 degree turn to double robo colossus. I tried that quite a bit, but I found myself dying a lot just before the colossi came out. A smoother transition with single robo colossus production while you're still doing decently well with zealot/archon/templar is much more effective. That way, you'll find that you just have 2 colossi sitting at home when you need to defend a big push, or you'll bring those 2 colossi to the front at just the right time to tip the scales for the last fight.
Weaknesses:
I don't think there are any hard counters to this build. General PvT weaknesses still apply tho.
If a Terran does a harass variant that I'm not familiar with, sometimes that will knock me off my game. Really well-executed 111's are always hard to stop.
And of course, a really good multi-tasking Terran will beat me and my 100 APM.
Also, Shattered Temple is a little too small to do my 1 gate FE safely, so there are some pressure builds that counter this build on small maps.
How does this build compare/contrast with other PvT builds already posted on the strategy forum?
This build is basically the polar opposite of the Turtle Toss double forge style. If you're used to CreatorPrime style PvT, you'll find that this build will put you out on the map more with an ability to set the pace for the match. You'll enjoy how much easier it will be to defend drops, but you'll miss the 18 minute a-move at 200/200 with +3/+3 where the Terran just dies.
These builds aren't terribly far apart in terms of general strategy. The Fast Third build gets a third nexus about 2 minutes earlier, but has greatly delayed upgrades and templar tech. If you're used to the Fast Third style, you'll enjoy my build's relative strength against the 2 medivac timing and how the earlier upgrades and storms let you push the Terran around in the 10-15 minute window, but you'll miss the sheer size of the force that you can get off of a third nexus at 8 minutes (or sometimes even earlier).
My current strategy steals its early build order when responding to gasless FE from the Reversible Jacket build. The builds have obvious similarities, but my current strategy differs in that it responds to Terran gas builds with more conventional responses, and against gasless FE, it gets a later robo, leans less heavily on warp prism tactics, and skips the dark shrine in favor of a stronger army with earlier colossi and more high templar and archons. If you're used to my Reversible Jacket build, you'll find that this strategy more easily asserts map control at ~12 minutes, is more able to win fights when Terran is not distracted, and doesn't flop over and die if Terran holds your pressure and counters with a bunch of ghosts. But you'll miss the sheer joy of killing 30 workers and then watching your dark templar strut into the Terran base just as he calls down 6 MULES....
How to play against this style as Terran:
This build is designed to shut down drops efficiently so that P can take map control and play aggressively. The common TvP metagame revolves around doing damage with drops to a turtling Protoss player, and since chargelot/templar shuts down drops really hard, this build takes the bite out of Terran's greatest strength.
Upgrades are the key to beating this strategy. I get a 5:20 forge and constantly chronoboost upgrades, but I stay on 1 forge for the whole game. A fast-upgrading Terran can beat me to 3-3. Matching or beating me on upgrades enables Terran to defend my drops efficiently and contest map control. Also, a timely third base is critical. If Terran doesn't have his third up by 12 or 13 minutes when I'm pushing out on the map, he's in trouble.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/129139 -- botched my z/s poke, but held 2 rax comfortably anyway. transitioned to zealot/archon http://drop.sc/129138 -- botched my z/s even worse, then held naked 6 rax. +1 armor makes zealots invincible vs marines http://drop.sc/129137 -- by-the-book win vs gasless FE http://drop.sc/129136 -- didn't hold tower and misread reactor 2 rax as 111. lost more than I should have as a result, but won with 2 colossus timing http://drop.sc/129135 -- again misread reactor 2 rax as 111 and lost more than I should have as a result. did good econ damage with immortal timing. turned into a crazy game. highly recommended for entertainment value. http://drop.sc/129134 -- by-the-book win vs gasless FE http://drop.sc/129133 -- vs gasless FE. botched my approach to his base and lost my whole army at 12 minutes. won the game 2 minutes later with the send some zealots to his third and the storm down his army when he looks away trick. http://drop.sc/129132 -- vs gasless FE. a little sloppy, but a win's a win http://drop.sc/129146 -- vs gasless FE. didn't play well and was fighting lag, but came out on top.
Cool guide. When you're warping in units right after you take your natural expansion, what combination do you get? Are mostly stalkers better against a gasless expo and more variety if there are marauders? Sometimes I feel safe once my expo gets up and running but lose so some stim timing with more bio than I expect.
On March 10 2012 06:39 AirbladeOrange wrote: Cool guide. When you're warping in units right after you take your natural expansion, what combination do you get? Are mostly stalkers better against a gasless expo and more variety if there are marauders? Sometimes I feel safe once my expo gets up and running but lose so some stim timing with more bio than I expect.
It depends what T is doing. Against gasless FE, I want 1 stalker (which I already have), 3 sentries, and the rest zealots. Against 111, I want stalkers first to defend harass, 1 sentry for guardian shield (which I already have), and zealots with whatever resources I have left.
Against early pressure, it really varies depending on what's coming at me and how much time I have. If I think I can get away with sentries, I'll get them early to start building energy. If I'm in big trouble, I'll make stalkers for DPS and pull probes to tank. If I think an extra zealot will save me from having to pull probes, I'll get a zealot and then stalkers.
Sorry a bit of a silly question but I thought your original 27nexus used 3 chronos on warpgate, 1 on sentry, 1 on zealot to line up for everything for finish at 5:50?
You posed 4 chronos on warpgate and none on the sentry in the OP, just wondering if there's something else significantly altered that I'm not seeing
On March 10 2012 06:52 Teoita wrote: Out of curiosity, why do you recommend going templar instead of colossus only against 1rax no gas fe?
Against 111, you need to worry about cloak. Against pressure builds, it helps to have 3 gates to defend. After defending with 3 gates, you could go templar, but I think your timing would be risky. If T goes for quick medivacs (he can always skip his expansion), you might get caught with your pants down with 500/700 invested in charge, storm and 2 templar with 30 seconds to go before the investment pays off. I hate taking chances after I defend an attack and know I'm ahead.
On March 10 2012 06:55 Forbidden17 wrote: Sorry a bit of a silly question but I thought your original 27nexus used 3 chronos on warpgate, 1 on sentry, 1 on zealot to line up for everything for finish at 5:50?
You posed 4 chronos on warpgate and none on the sentry in the OP, just wondering if there's something else significantly altered that I'm not seeing
I'm pretty sure that what I have posted here is the most optimal version of the 27 nexus with sentry opening. It appears that I may have refined the opening slightly since I posted the opening last November.
3 chrono on probes, 4 on WG tech, 1 on 2nd zealot sounds right. I'll double check when I get a chance.
Edit: I was wrong. 3, 3, 1 with 1 left over for +1 armor is right.
On March 10 2012 07:05 Teoita wrote: I see, follow up question then if you don't mind.
Why do you feel like you need storm to defend the medivac timing? Shouldn't charge, +1 and maybe like 2 immortals be enough?
If you don't have storm or colossi, you're counting on positioning and forcefields to defend. Chargelots don't synergize with immortals well at all since the immortals can't keep up and won't do damage. Chargelot/archon works okay and I think you could get that out in time. It's up to you--I just think colossus tech is the safe way to go when my timings get screwed up by early pressure.
I am using kcdc's 1 Gate FE almost every PvT and can highly recommend it. Its very resilient, versatile and cuts almost no probes.
Another branch I play very often against gasless FE is still going for the Robo but skipping Observers and going straight for a prism while adding 2 more Gates. I then drop his mineral line(s) while pressuring his Front with my initial units and potential reinforcements from a proxy pylon. Currently most Terrans are not used to this kind of fast drop and botch their army distribution, allowing me to do damage at the weaker spot with additional warpins. Anyways the main reason to do this is not so much damage but the fact that I can go straight into Colossi + single Forge and assemble a really strong Followup and establish my third base.
On March 10 2012 07:07 kcdc wrote: 3 chrono on probes, 4 on WG tech, 1 on 2nd zealot sounds right. I'll double check when I get a chance.
Just checked. Its 3 on probes, 3 on WG, 1 on Gateway during Sentry or 2nd Zealot. 8th CB would be rdy only at 6:00.
On March 10 2012 07:57 Xanatoss wrote: I am using kcdc's 1 Gate FE almost every PvT and can highly recommend it. Its very resilient, versatile and cuts almost no probes.
Another branch I play very often against gasless FE is still going for the Robo but skipping Observers and going straight for a prism while adding 2 more Gates. I then drop his mineral line(s) while pressuring his Front with my initial units and potential reinforcements from a proxy pylon. Currently most Terrans are not used to this kind of fast drop and botch their army distribution, allowing me to do damage at the weaker spot with additional warpins. Anyways the main reason to do this is not so much damage but the fact that I can go straight into Colossi + single Forge and assemble a really strong Followup and establish my third base.
Edit: Nvm my 2nd Part. Did not consider your late scout.
I don't think the scout timing is a problem for that robo branch. Unless you need a robo before 5:30, you can confirm gasless expo before you need to commit.
Always nice guides from you. This build is similar to mines that branched off of HuK's but I'm sure this is more tight. Should have waited until your replays were ready though.
On March 10 2012 07:57 Xanatoss wrote: I am using kcdc's 1 Gate FE almost every PvT and can highly recommend it. Its very resilient, versatile and cuts almost no probes.
Another branch I play very often against gasless FE is still going for the Robo but skipping Observers and going straight for a prism while adding 2 more Gates. I then drop his mineral line(s) while pressuring his Front with my initial units and potential reinforcements from a proxy pylon. Currently most Terrans are not used to this kind of fast drop and botch their army distribution, allowing me to do damage at the weaker spot with additional warpins. Anyways the main reason to do this is not so much damage but the fact that I can go straight into Colossi + single Forge and assemble a really strong Followup and establish my third base.
Edit: Nvm my 2nd Part. Did not consider your late scout.
I don't think the scout timing is a problem for that robo branch. Unless you need a robo before 5:30, you can confirm gasless expo before you need to commit.
Tbh I am a bit afraid of these superearly unit-coordinations because I botch my opening most of the time when I concentrate on not losing the z/s when poking him. So I get the robo every game blindly and just adapt what I build out of it depening on what I see with my scouting probe from my opponent when he leaves his ramp. 2 Rax -> Immo nothing -> Obs naked Marines/ Lowground-Bunker -> Prism
On March 10 2012 07:05 Teoita wrote: I see, follow up question then if you don't mind.
Why do you feel like you need storm to defend the medivac timing? Shouldn't charge, +1 and maybe like 2 immortals be enough?
When I looked through my replays, I had one where I defended a 2-rax with 3 gates and went straight into chargelot/archon with a single forge. I couldn't have had storm in time, but chargelot/archon certainly worked well in that situation.
On March 10 2012 12:01 darkcloud8282 wrote: It seems you scout really late with this build though.. how do you hold proxy 11-11? I mean 1 rax is proxied.
You know this isn't a ZvT guide, right?
If you're talking about silly stuff like rallying the first marines and bunkering the nexus TvZ style, the answer is micro your stalker. But nobody does that. If you're talking about a 2-rax marine SCV all-in, cancel your nexus, wall the top of your ramp, and shoot over the wall with stalkers. If you watch my reps, you'll see I leave a pylon at the top of the ramp in every game. This is partially so that I can wall off easily if I see a train of SCVs heading my way.
On March 10 2012 12:01 darkcloud8282 wrote: It seems you scout really late with this build though.. how do you hold proxy 11-11? I mean 1 rax is proxied.
Hate to be that guy but that is a pretty irrelevant build tvp. Only reason you would ever do it is to blind counter someone that is known to nexus first.
I only watched only 1 replay because watching from kcdc's POV made me sick. Him playing soo slow with every camera movement smooth was torture on my mind.
The main thing I've read from the write-up/the replay is that you don't get robo until way late. So the cloak ghosts that would be the response to archon/Templar tech would ravage your zealot sentry archon ball horrifically. Also archons/ht aren't Colossus, so the Terran is free to an early third(<9mins) while you save up for archons and spam medivac's only strengthening his front row of soldiers when you finally attack/defend.
On March 10 2012 07:57 Xanatoss wrote: I am using kcdc's 1 Gate FE almost every PvT and can highly recommend it. Its very resilient, versatile and cuts almost no probes.
Another branch I play very often against gasless FE is still going for the Robo but skipping Observers and going straight for a prism while adding 2 more Gates. I then drop his mineral line(s) while pressuring his Front with my initial units and potential reinforcements from a proxy pylon. Currently most Terrans are not used to this kind of fast drop and botch their army distribution, allowing me to do damage at the weaker spot with additional warpins. Anyways the main reason to do this is not so much damage but the fact that I can go straight into Colossi + single Forge and assemble a really strong Followup and establish my third base.
On March 10 2012 07:07 kcdc wrote: 3 chrono on probes, 4 on WG tech, 1 on 2nd zealot sounds right. I'll double check when I get a chance.
Just checked. Its 3 on probes, 3 on WG, 1 on Gateway during Sentry or 2nd Zealot. 8th CB would be rdy only at 6:00.
thanks for checking! any chance kcdc would care to confirm this?
i use 2 on probes, 3 on wg, 1 on sentry, 1 on zealot (which i think is what kcdc used to do a few months ago) and it seems to line up to 5:50. guess i'll try this version
On March 10 2012 07:05 Teoita wrote: I see, follow up question then if you don't mind.
Why do you feel like you need storm to defend the medivac timing? Shouldn't charge, +1 and maybe like 2 immortals be enough?
When I looked through my replays, I had one where I defended a 2-rax with 3 gates and went straight into chargelot/archon with a single forge. I couldn't have had storm in time, but chargelot/archon certainly worked well in that situation.
Wouldn't chargelot/archon with feedback on the medivacs be out in time, generally speaking to defend the usual medivac timing, even if storm isn't nearly ready yet? If so, wouldn't a storm transition instead of colossus transition be just as viable?
On March 10 2012 13:02 iTzSnypah wrote: I only watched only 1 replay because watching from kcdc's POV made me sick. Him playing soo slow with every camera movement smooth was torture on my mind.
The main thing I've read from the write-up/the replay is that you don't get robo until way late. So the cloak ghosts that would be the response to archon/Templar tech would ravage your zealot sentry archon ball horrifically. Also archons/ht aren't Colossus, so the Terran is free to an early third(<9mins) while you save up for archons and spam medivac's only strengthening his front row of soldiers when you finally attack/defend.
Yeah, I play slowly. Like I said, I usually face people with twice my APM. I actually play this style particularly slowly (it's about 20 APM lower than my PvZ or PvP) because (1) there's nothing to micro up till 10 minutes, (2) you need to babysit the hell out of your templar, and (3) there's a lot of on-the-fly decision making which slows me down.
But I play slowly and consistently beat GM Terrans. Imagine what you could do if you play fast.
Also, I get a robo at ~11 minutes. If a Terran has a ball of 6 cloaked ghosts by 12:30, they either don't have medivacs or they don't have upgrades. Either way, they're screwed.
And yes, T can take an early third. But I'm taking a pretty early third myself and I'm getting upgrades and storm, so I'm not far behind on income and my units are more efficient. Fast third is one of my favorite styles to play against because you know medivacs and ghosts will be late.
FWIW, I have a much easier time with this build vs fast third Terrans than I ever did with the double forge style.
On March 10 2012 07:05 Teoita wrote: I see, follow up question then if you don't mind.
Why do you feel like you need storm to defend the medivac timing? Shouldn't charge, +1 and maybe like 2 immortals be enough?
When I looked through my replays, I had one where I defended a 2-rax with 3 gates and went straight into chargelot/archon with a single forge. I couldn't have had storm in time, but chargelot/archon certainly worked well in that situation.
Wouldn't chargelot/archon with feedback on the medivacs be out in time, generally speaking to defend the usual medivac timing, even if storm isn't nearly ready yet? If so, wouldn't a storm transition instead of colossus transition be just as viable?
Yeah, I changed the guide to mention that you can go chargelot/archon out of the 3 gate early pressure defense. I think that's actually be my preferred response because I win a lot more with templar tech than I do with robo first.
You can learn a lot about your build by writing a guide....
why not get +2 armor first instead of +1 attack, you are massing chargelots and storm wouldn't armor help more. Is it cause your build doesnt give you enough gas or something or do u think attack is more useful?
On March 10 2012 07:57 Xanatoss wrote: I am using kcdc's 1 Gate FE almost every PvT and can highly recommend it. Its very resilient, versatile and cuts almost no probes.
Another branch I play very often against gasless FE is still going for the Robo but skipping Observers and going straight for a prism while adding 2 more Gates. I then drop his mineral line(s) while pressuring his Front with my initial units and potential reinforcements from a proxy pylon. Currently most Terrans are not used to this kind of fast drop and botch their army distribution, allowing me to do damage at the weaker spot with additional warpins. Anyways the main reason to do this is not so much damage but the fact that I can go straight into Colossi + single Forge and assemble a really strong Followup and establish my third base.
On March 10 2012 07:07 kcdc wrote: 3 chrono on probes, 4 on WG tech, 1 on 2nd zealot sounds right. I'll double check when I get a chance.
Just checked. Its 3 on probes, 3 on WG, 1 on Gateway during Sentry or 2nd Zealot. 8th CB would be rdy only at 6:00.
thanks for checking! any chance kcdc would care to confirm this?
i use 2 on probes, 3 on wg, 1 on sentry, 1 on zealot (which i think is what kcdc used to do a few months ago) and it seems to line up to 5:50. guess i'll try this version
3 on probes, 4 on wg, 1 on 2nd zealot is optimal if you start your sentry on 28 supply right at 50 minerals and start your zealot immediately as sentry finishes. I may not have realized it when I first posted the opening, the chronoboost on the sentry is not needed. If your macro is spot on, you only need 1 chronoboost between the sentry and zealot production, and it's better to do it on the zealot because this allows you to get your gateway or forge earlier. If you're going robo, chronoboosting the sentry or zealot makes no difference.
Edit: Wrong again. 3, 3, 1 with 1 chrono saved for forge gets you WG at 5:50
On March 10 2012 16:18 AlphaDotCom wrote: why not get +2 armor first instead of +1 attack, you are massing chargelots and storm wouldn't armor help more. Is it cause your build doesnt give you enough gas or something or do u think attack is more useful?
I used to do this, but +2 armor costs 50/50 more than +1 weapons, and that 50 gas actually slows down your charge and storm tech more than you might think. You're getting both upgrades pretty quickly, and things time out more smoothly if you get +1 weapons before +2 armor. It's not a huge deal either way--I just think getting +1 weapons first is slightly better.
On March 10 2012 13:02 iTzSnypah wrote: I only watched only 1 replay because watching from kcdc's POV made me sick. Him playing soo slow with every camera movement smooth was torture on my mind.
kcdc plays fine... I don't see the point in bashing a guy providing free and valuable information.
On March 10 2012 13:02 iTzSnypah wrote: I only watched only 1 replay because watching from kcdc's POV made me sick. Him playing soo slow with every camera movement smooth was torture on my mind.
kcdc plays fine... I don't see the point in bashing a guy providing free and valuable information.
apm is irrelevant to skill level, ever watch axslav play?
On March 10 2012 07:57 Xanatoss wrote: I am using kcdc's 1 Gate FE almost every PvT and can highly recommend it. Its very resilient, versatile and cuts almost no probes.
Another branch I play very often against gasless FE is still going for the Robo but skipping Observers and going straight for a prism while adding 2 more Gates. I then drop his mineral line(s) while pressuring his Front with my initial units and potential reinforcements from a proxy pylon. Currently most Terrans are not used to this kind of fast drop and botch their army distribution, allowing me to do damage at the weaker spot with additional warpins. Anyways the main reason to do this is not so much damage but the fact that I can go straight into Colossi + single Forge and assemble a really strong Followup and establish my third base.
On March 10 2012 07:07 kcdc wrote: 3 chrono on probes, 4 on WG tech, 1 on 2nd zealot sounds right. I'll double check when I get a chance.
Just checked. Its 3 on probes, 3 on WG, 1 on Gateway during Sentry or 2nd Zealot. 8th CB would be rdy only at 6:00.
thanks for checking! any chance kcdc would care to confirm this?
i use 2 on probes, 3 on wg, 1 on sentry, 1 on zealot (which i think is what kcdc used to do a few months ago) and it seems to line up to 5:50. guess i'll try this version
3 on probes, 4 on wg, 1 on 2nd zealot is optimal if you start your sentry on 28 supply right at 50 minerals and start your zealot immediately as sentry finishes. I may not have realized it when I first posted the opening, the chronoboost on the sentry is not needed. If your macro is spot on, you only need 1 chronoboost between the sentry and zealot production, and it's better to do it on the zealot because this allows you to get your gateway or forge earlier. If you're going robo, chronoboosting the sentry or zealot makes no difference.
Thank you, I'm just a little shocked because I've been executing what I posted above for a few months now, able to get it down to the point where warpgate/2nd-gate/zealot finishes at the same time of 5:50 (within 1 or 2 seconds). Your more optimal variant takes one chrono off the gateway and uses it on warpgate which is essentially a 20s difference I'm missing out on. Btw could you explain how a 13gate warpgate finishes at 5:50 with 4-chronos? Is the core delayed or something? Pretty sure a non-chronoed warpgate off a 13gate would finish at 6:20 no?
This is a very solid build, good job! I like the way your fast storm makes stalkers and blink unnecessary in the midgame.
You should try to fake a 6gate with your early zealot sentry to delay the terran slightly, pretty underused trick but very good if you stormrush and every second counts
On March 10 2012 07:57 Xanatoss wrote: I am using kcdc's 1 Gate FE almost every PvT and can highly recommend it. Its very resilient, versatile and cuts almost no probes.
Another branch I play very often against gasless FE is still going for the Robo but skipping Observers and going straight for a prism while adding 2 more Gates. I then drop his mineral line(s) while pressuring his Front with my initial units and potential reinforcements from a proxy pylon. Currently most Terrans are not used to this kind of fast drop and botch their army distribution, allowing me to do damage at the weaker spot with additional warpins. Anyways the main reason to do this is not so much damage but the fact that I can go straight into Colossi + single Forge and assemble a really strong Followup and establish my third base.
On March 10 2012 07:07 kcdc wrote: 3 chrono on probes, 4 on WG tech, 1 on 2nd zealot sounds right. I'll double check when I get a chance.
Just checked. Its 3 on probes, 3 on WG, 1 on Gateway during Sentry or 2nd Zealot. 8th CB would be rdy only at 6:00.
thanks for checking! any chance kcdc would care to confirm this?
i use 2 on probes, 3 on wg, 1 on sentry, 1 on zealot (which i think is what kcdc used to do a few months ago) and it seems to line up to 5:50. guess i'll try this version
3 on probes, 4 on wg, 1 on 2nd zealot is optimal if you start your sentry on 28 supply right at 50 minerals and start your zealot immediately as sentry finishes. I may not have realized it when I first posted the opening, the chronoboost on the sentry is not needed. If your macro is spot on, you only need 1 chronoboost between the sentry and zealot production, and it's better to do it on the zealot because this allows you to get your gateway or forge earlier. If you're going robo, chronoboosting the sentry or zealot makes no difference.
Why nobody trusts me ever? :< Its 3/3/1. The 8th CB (4th on WG) would be rdy at 6 Minutes when you already warp in your first units.
Edit: It is funny and frustrating at the same time to watch your replays. You botch your opening almost every single game and still get away with it. It appears I am influenced by 2 Rax to much. I have nightmares of correct executed 2 Raxes with 2-3 Autorepair-SCVs pulled for Bunker that leaves when you try to poke. I would lose the zealot and/or stalker if I poke like you do most of the time, which leaves me unable to defend the push if I botched my CBs like you do so often. No offense! As I said its funny and frustrating at the same time to see that ^^ Like in the first replay where your opponent is just another terran who thinks "Derp Derp 2 Rax is about surprise, better hide my 2nd Rax and lose time for no reason." -> later Shells -> 1-2 Freekills gone.
On March 10 2012 07:57 Xanatoss wrote: I am using kcdc's 1 Gate FE almost every PvT and can highly recommend it. Its very resilient, versatile and cuts almost no probes.
Another branch I play very often against gasless FE is still going for the Robo but skipping Observers and going straight for a prism while adding 2 more Gates. I then drop his mineral line(s) while pressuring his Front with my initial units and potential reinforcements from a proxy pylon. Currently most Terrans are not used to this kind of fast drop and botch their army distribution, allowing me to do damage at the weaker spot with additional warpins. Anyways the main reason to do this is not so much damage but the fact that I can go straight into Colossi + single Forge and assemble a really strong Followup and establish my third base.
On March 10 2012 07:07 kcdc wrote: 3 chrono on probes, 4 on WG tech, 1 on 2nd zealot sounds right. I'll double check when I get a chance.
Just checked. Its 3 on probes, 3 on WG, 1 on Gateway during Sentry or 2nd Zealot. 8th CB would be rdy only at 6:00.
thanks for checking! any chance kcdc would care to confirm this?
i use 2 on probes, 3 on wg, 1 on sentry, 1 on zealot (which i think is what kcdc used to do a few months ago) and it seems to line up to 5:50. guess i'll try this version
The version from last year had scout after gate which resulted in a slight probecut at 27 Food (Nexus). If you resumed Probes first and then built a Sentry and boosted that and the following zealot (with 1 cb coming from probes) you got to the same warpgatetiming as the current build but with different cb distribution (2/3/2) and ~2 Probes less.
On March 10 2012 07:57 Xanatoss wrote: I am using kcdc's 1 Gate FE almost every PvT and can highly recommend it. Its very resilient, versatile and cuts almost no probes.
Another branch I play very often against gasless FE is still going for the Robo but skipping Observers and going straight for a prism while adding 2 more Gates. I then drop his mineral line(s) while pressuring his Front with my initial units and potential reinforcements from a proxy pylon. Currently most Terrans are not used to this kind of fast drop and botch their army distribution, allowing me to do damage at the weaker spot with additional warpins. Anyways the main reason to do this is not so much damage but the fact that I can go straight into Colossi + single Forge and assemble a really strong Followup and establish my third base.
On March 10 2012 07:07 kcdc wrote: 3 chrono on probes, 4 on WG tech, 1 on 2nd zealot sounds right. I'll double check when I get a chance.
Just checked. Its 3 on probes, 3 on WG, 1 on Gateway during Sentry or 2nd Zealot. 8th CB would be rdy only at 6:00.
tottally agree with u i do exactly the same on both the crono timings on the 1gate fe build and my reaction to a gasless expo. i do change the build a bit when its gasless fe though skimp a bit more on the dps units favouring more econ (gas) and sentries. get a fast third while getting 2 immos + sentries and going up to 5-6 gates to be able to defend his possible counter push or medvac timing. all while slowly teching to colo.
Crap after checking, I still got it wrong. 3 on probes, 3 on WG 1 on zealot is right. You have 7 to use.but 4 on WG makes it finish too fast. Better to save the last chronological for forge. And yes. I botch my chronological a lot cuz the poke the nexus and the infrastructure buildings all seem to happen at the same time and my mechanics suck. 2 tax is a joke vs this build even with botched chrono tho.
On March 11 2012 00:06 kcdc wrote: Crap after checking, I still got it wrong. 3 on probes, 3 on WG 1 on zealot is right. You have 7 to use.but 4 on WG makes it finish too fast. Better to save the last chronological for forge. And yes. I botch my chronological a lot cuz the poke the nexus and the infrastructure buildings all seem to happen at the same time and my mechanics suck. 2 tax is a joke vs this build even with botched chrono tho.
On March 10 2012 16:50 SidewinderSC2 wrote: Isn't this Reversible Jacket with a little more detailed information?
I love that build BTW, just wondering what your comments are on this thread and Reversible Jacket.
I touched on this in the guide. Basically, Reversible Jacket was supposed to be a fun style where you had a really cool multi-pronged timing attack, but it had weaknesses. This build is what you get if you take that fun Reversible Jacket style and make it solid against everything. A lot of the changes were things that a good player would figure out on their own from playing Reversible Jacket a lot, but this build has everything optimized so you don't have to figure it out yourself.
Some of the changes include:
Z+S poke to scout 111 vs early pressure vs gasless FE Optimized reaction vs 111 3rd gate instead of forge vs early pressure Slower robo and no dark shrine if standard play Stronger mid-game army in a direct fight, more direct pressure instead of harass pressure Well-defined 4th gas timing Planned out colossus transition
The builds are similar, but this is a "Strong vs Everything" build whereas Reversible Jacket is a "I want to have some fun and watch Terran crumble under multi-tasking pressure" build.
On March 11 2012 00:06 kcdc wrote: Crap after checking, I still got it wrong. 3 on probes, 3 on WG 1 on zealot is right. You have 7 to use.but 4 on WG makes it finish too fast. Better to save the last chronological for forge. And yes. I botch my chronological a lot cuz the poke the nexus and the infrastructure buildings all seem to happen at the same time and my mechanics suck. 2 tax is a joke vs this build even with botched chrono tho.
Yes because Terrans equally suck executing it.
With the third gate at 5:20, I think there's 10 seconds to spare with the timings to still defend 2 rax comfortably. With the robo or forge instead of the third gate, you need to hit the timings more crisply to defend well. It's not impossible to hold with 2 gates, but it's too thin to be practical if you want the highest possible win percentage.
Have you tried scouting and reacting with a third gate at 5:20?
I hope you can check out this replay, I basically lost to a 2rax marine scv all in, http://drop.sc/129519 , on metal, do you think this is also too small of a map 1gate fe on? I notice you said that shattered was too small to 1gate fe on. What do you normally do on these maps instead?
On March 11 2012 14:15 Tyler73123 wrote: I hope you can check out this replay, I basically lost to a 2rax marine scv all in, http://drop.sc/129519 , on metal, do you think this is also too small of a map 1gate fe on? I notice you said that shattered was too small to 1gate fe on. What do you normally do on these maps instead?
(1) Close positions Metal is kind of cutting it. I found Shattered to be just a few seconds too close in rush distance, so Metal is a borderline case. You might do MC's 1 gate expo instead.
(2) That said, 2 rax marine-SCV is not one of the rushes that gives this build trouble in close positions. In terms of build order, you were more or less okay--you just didn't react quickly enough. Here's what you should do next time:
-Build a pylon touching your ramp and overlooking your natural. This is something you should do every game since it's on high ground so it's safe, it proves power for low-ground warp-ins, and it allows you to wall the top of your ramp with 300 minerals (2 gates). If you watch my replays, my first pylon is always in the middle of my base, my 2nd pylon goes on an edge of my base where I want to spot for drops, and my third pylon goes at the top of the ramp. I actually don't always get it touching the ramp, but I do always make sure it can power a full wall-off. If it's not touching, it costs 400 to wall off which is still doable, but not quite as good.
-Cancel your nexus right away and with the 300 minerals, build 2 gates to wall off. If you can get your stalker back in first, that's a plus, but it's not necessary.
-Chronoboost out stalkers and kill as much as you can before the wall dies
-Micro stalkers vs marines
If you practice it a couple times, you'll be able to win 100%.
Also, in your rep, you made the nexus 1 probe too late--you lost your scout probe, so the nexus comes on 26 supply.
cool build gets you out of the midgame real nicely!
question though, do you take your fourth assimilator after the TC or templar archives? in the guide i says TC but in the replays iw atched you take it after templar archives. unless i am misunderstanding
On March 28 2012 04:42 ant885 wrote: cool build gets you out of the midgame real nicely!
question though, do you take your fourth assimilator after the TC or templar archives? in the guide i says TC but in the replays iw atched you take it after templar archives. unless i am misunderstanding
thanks :D
I think the best time to take it is after starting the templar archives. I think you have enough minerals to get the 4th gas before starting charge, but that may change game-to-game depending on how well you chronoboosted and kept up your zealot production. Before or after starting charge is only like a 15 second difference.
But if the guide says after TC and before archives, that's not what I usually do, so I'll fix it.
This build usually works for me vs marine and marauder pressure at the start but have played a few games where he builds marines and hellions early which i cant hold :/ any advice ?
On April 03 2012 10:26 Fitzy1 wrote: This build usually works for me vs marine and marauder pressure at the start but have played a few games where he builds marines and hellions early which i cant hold :/ any advice ?
Replay?
There are a lot of ways to use marines and hellions, and it's tough to say how to respond without knowing the style you're having trouble with.
You should think of playing against sky terran or mech terran as a normal macro game. Templar are very strong against banshees and zealot-archon-immortal is very strong against mech. Those styles aren't as strong which is why you don't see them as much, but the surprise and inexperience factors make up for the vulnerabilities. Just focus on playing a solid macro game.
ShamTao:
Sorry, I don't have a replay vs 1-1-1 handy. I do a normal 1-1-1 defense after 1 gate FE tho. The only difference between what I do and what is standard is that my 1 gate FE gets a couple extra probes and I go 2 gates into robo rather than 3 gates into robo.
You should check out Qtip's 1-1-1 guide and MC's 1-gate FE guide, but I'm not sure either thread has a replay with colossi. Often T pushes before you'd get colossi, so you cancel the bay and do what Qtip does.
Nice build, I'm having a hell lot of fun with it (my 3 Gates Agressive Expo was kinda old nowadays). But isn't it better to scout after GW (maybe on 9, depends of the map), to sneak a probe in your opponent's base and see if he's taking gaz or not ? (I assume that Terran who make a gaz opening build their assi while rax is building)
Do you get only one immortal? I've been using style with later colo (I popped 10:55 using your build, but it wasnt perfect.) and I get 4immortals for oneshotting tanks and then many zealot. I also get blocked always at 92, wtf, tips?
I seem to get only 2phoenix out before 112 hits, is this normal?
On April 06 2012 19:45 Ryndika wrote: Do you get only one immortal? I've been using style with later colo (I popped 10:55 using your build, but it wasnt perfect.) and I get 4immortals for oneshotting tanks and then many zealot. I also get blocked always at 92, wtf, tips?
I seem to get only 2phoenix out before 112 hits, is this normal?
You can get more immortals if that works for you. I think I get 2 before I start making colossi, and then after 2 colossi, I'll go back to immortals if the game isn't over already.
~2 phoenixes sounds about right. You could probably skip the stargate if you really wanted. It's primarily there to prevent T from getting a ton of banshees and circumventing the cannons to harass your main.
I just played a game on a 2p map (Korhal), where my opponent made a 6 rax all-in (4 at each corner of his base, 2 made at a random location), I poked at sth like 6min maybe at his nat and saw only marines, so I assumed a gasless expand, but a moment later he came and rolled over me. What can I do to prevent/defend this ?
On April 11 2012 05:17 Sakray wrote: I just played a game on a 2p map (Korhal), where my opponent made a 6 rax all-in (4 at each corner of his base, 2 made at a random location), I poked at sth like 6min maybe at his nat and saw only marines, so I assumed a gasless expand, but a moment later he came and rolled over me. What can I do to prevent/defend this ?
(1) Count marines. I believe 1-rax expo should have 4 marines when you poke. If there's 5+, something is up. I could be wrong on that number tho--I haven't played in a couple weeks.
(2) Hold a tower. If you think tech is likely, use a probe to hold the tower and bring the stalker back to defend your base. Otherwise, keep the stalker at a tower.
When you see the push coming, you need to make a decision about whether you can hold your expansion. If there are a ton of SCV pulled, cancel the nexus and wall off the top of your ramp (you should always plant your 3rd pylon so it powers your ramp and the low ground beneath your ramp). Against 6 rax marine, the push hits after your nexus finishes, and you might have to sacrifice the natural on some maps. You'll still be way ahead tho since you're both on 1 base and you have tech.
I'm glad someone dug this up while I was settling down to work this morning, it made for a great read. It sounds very similar to the build I use (I'm mbe 60% WR vs low-mid masters) but yours is much more refined and my 3rd timing always clashed with the 2-4 medivac push.
On April 12 2012 06:01 _NIx_ wrote: what 9 units do you want to have vs. 2rax?
1 sentry, 3 zealots 5 stalkers will reflect it very easily. A-move into it, pop guardian shield and focus the stalkers on the marauders. In general in PvT a mostly stalker army with just a few zealots for soaking damage is best for stopping attacks without stim. For attacks with stim you need more sentries to trap them and thus want more zealots as well which are good when T is trapped, a bit lackluster otherwise.
The nice thing is that the gas usage of pure stalkers or zealot/sentry is equal so you can warp in what you need depending on what's coming, if they aren't pushing quickly go with the sentries to prepare for later stim timings, if they are pushing go with the stalkers.
On April 12 2012 06:01 _NIx_ wrote: what 9 units do you want to have vs. 2rax?
1 sentry, 3 zealots 5 stalkers will reflect it very easily. A-move into it, pop guardian shield and focus the stalkers on the marauders. In general in PvT a mostly stalker army with just a few zealots for soaking damage is best for stopping attacks without stim. For attacks with stim you need more sentries to trap them and thus want more zealots as well which are good when T is trapped, a bit lackluster otherwise.
The nice thing is that the gas usage of pure stalkers or zealot/sentry is equal so you can warp in what you need depending on what's coming, if they aren't pushing quickly go with the sentries to prepare for later stim timings, if they are pushing go with the stalkers.
Thank you! I was having some problems against early pressure with this build. ♥
On April 18 2012 06:26 spawnferkel wrote: what would be a good reaction against CC first,
i guess i have to do some sort of aggression
you can pressure with the initial zealot stalker probe and you can chrono out stalkers if your able to deny the bunker, so that you can deny the expansion altogether.
Thanks for the guide, I've been having issues with Terran 1 base play when I go FE, I couldnt get enough units to fend off the timing push. If they went FE I'd crush them (I think my macro is a lot better than it should be in EU Bronze), but if they play 1 base I'd lose (Lack of micro and generally I had sweet fa before 7 Minutes, cause I love to overprobe >.<)
One question: I notice that in your gasless expand reaction you don't get a Robo until something like 11 minutes.
This is well after some kind of 2-base 1-1-1 (a 2-2-2, if you will) or any other builds wanting banshees will have cloak. Are you scouting for some sign of this? Or do you generally have cannons around your mineral line at this point anyway?
On April 18 2012 22:47 Treehead wrote: One question: I notice that in your gasless expand reaction you don't get a Robo until something like 11 minutes.
This is well after some kind of 2-base 1-1-1 (a 2-2-2, if you will) or any other builds wanting banshees will have cloak. Are you scouting for some sign of this? Or do you generally have cannons around your mineral line at this point anyway?
A combination of scouting and metagaming. Poke the stalker up to check T's front at about 7:30. Usually, you'll be able to pull your stalker away for free. If you see 2+ bunkers, no marauders and an unimpressive marine count, he's probably going 2-base banshee, but it's also possible that he's going triple orbital with fast upgrades. I recommend getting a robo here, but if you feel like you have a read on your opponent and know he likes to be macro-greedy, you could roll the dice and skip the robo anyway.
If there's a marauder, it's very unlikely that he's getting cloaked units any time soon and delaying detection is a good gamble.
On April 18 2012 22:47 Treehead wrote: One question: I notice that in your gasless expand reaction you don't get a Robo until something like 11 minutes.
This is well after some kind of 2-base 1-1-1 (a 2-2-2, if you will) or any other builds wanting banshees will have cloak. Are you scouting for some sign of this? Or do you generally have cannons around your mineral line at this point anyway?
A combination of scouting and metagaming. Poke the stalker up to check T's front at about 7:30. Usually, you'll be able to pull your stalker away for free. If you see 2+ bunkers, no marauders and an unimpressive marine count, he's probably going 2-base banshee, but it's also possible that he's going triple orbital with fast upgrades. I recommend getting a robo here, but if you feel like you have a read on your opponent and know he likes to be macro-greedy, you could roll the dice and skip the robo anyway.
If there's a marauder, it's very unlikely that he's getting cloaked units any time soon and delaying detection is a good gamble.
Makes perfect sense.
It just feels fragile to look at bio count at one point on the map and say "ah ha, he must not be getting a pre 12-minute banshee" without being able to see much. It's probably silly to think this way, because 99% of games you see either 1-1-1 or MMM(V/G), but still...
On April 18 2012 22:47 Treehead wrote: One question: I notice that in your gasless expand reaction you don't get a Robo until something like 11 minutes.
This is well after some kind of 2-base 1-1-1 (a 2-2-2, if you will) or any other builds wanting banshees will have cloak. Are you scouting for some sign of this? Or do you generally have cannons around your mineral line at this point anyway?
A combination of scouting and metagaming. Poke the stalker up to check T's front at about 7:30. Usually, you'll be able to pull your stalker away for free. If you see 2+ bunkers, no marauders and an unimpressive marine count, he's probably going 2-base banshee, but it's also possible that he's going triple orbital with fast upgrades. I recommend getting a robo here, but if you feel like you have a read on your opponent and know he likes to be macro-greedy, you could roll the dice and skip the robo anyway.
If there's a marauder, it's very unlikely that he's getting cloaked units any time soon and delaying detection is a good gamble.
Makes perfect sense.
It just feels fragile to look at bio count at one point on the map and say "ah ha, he must not be getting a pre 12-minute banshee" without being able to see much. It's probably silly to think this way, because 99% of games you see either 1-1-1 or MMM(V/G), but still...
You can get the robo and obs earlier if you want, but my experience is that there's not an extra 225/175 available in the build without substantially tweaking things around. The idea is that you have just enough stuff to survive until storm, and you get storm just in time to defend medivac timings without producing many stalkers or researching blink.
You can try moving stuff around, but if you spend 175 gas on getting an obs, your storm will be later which will mean you'll need stalkers which will mean you'll want blink which will mean you'll have less stuff which will mean your expansion is slower, etc etc.
I don't think I've ever played or seen a game against gasless expand where a T showed a marauder before 8 minutes and got cloaked banshees before 12 minutes. I'm not sure it'd even be that good as a metagame counter to my build since building marauders and researching conc shell, etc will allow you to have templar out before the banshees reach your base. If they walk in range of your templar before cloaking, you feedback and the harass is done. Or if you have a cannon, you feedback and the harass is done.
It's something to acknowledge as a technical possibility, but there's no reason to tweak your play against it until you lose to it at least once.
why dont you scout on 9/11 in 2 player maps so you can see his gas timings?
Because scouting on 21 gives you a ton more minerals than scouting on 9 and knowing his gas timings doesn't give me any useful information. I make the same deviations off of a 21 scout that I would off of a 9 scout, but I have an extra ~150 minerals.
and if you scout after your third pylon on 2 player maps and he cc first you can't chrono your units fast enough to disturb him
Is that even a good thing to do? It just puts your expansion further behind.
Which maps does this works best on? I have vetoed: Shakuras Plateu, Metalopolis and TA. But it should be fine on the rest of the maps, right? Was just thinking if it had any problem on let's say close position on Entombed Valley against aggressive Terrans?
13 gate (3x chronoboost on probes at start) 15 gas 18 core (send scout on 4 player maps) 19 zealot 22 pylon (send scout on 2 player maps) 23 stalker and WG tech (3 chrono total on WG tech) 27 nexus (at 26 food, rally nexus to natural. The probe will reach the natural right on time) 28 gateway 28 sentry 31 pylon
how do you make a zealot at 19 if your capped at 18 supply assumining you went 9 pylon which isnt listed in the build order? i just wanna know when to make pylons in this build please ,
13 gate (3x chronoboost on probes at start) 15 gas 18 core (send scout on 4 player maps) 19 zealot 22 pylon (send scout on 2 player maps) 23 stalker and WG tech (3 chrono total on WG tech) 27 nexus (at 26 food, rally nexus to natural. The probe will reach the natural right on time) 28 gateway 28 sentry 31 pylon
how do you make a zealot at 19 if your capped at 18 supply assumining you went 9 pylon which isnt listed in the build order? i just wanna know when to make pylons in this build please ,
he missed a pylon timing at 16 or 17 i think. If you dont queue up probes, you should have 100 free minerals w/o probe cutting between the first gas and core timing.
k not sure if its timed perfectly but il try it , just lost my first game doing this build lol , to some wierd Terran that went Nukes , sucks not having an obs out in time to spot those pesky ghosts
On May 05 2012 04:34 kcdc wrote: C'mon guys. I didn't specify every pylon just like I didn't specify every probe. I only listed the stuff that some people might do differently.
Ohhhh. You're making probes. That's what I was doing wrong!
I just figured your strat was bad when I never got to 9 food to make my first pylon.
On May 05 2012 04:34 kcdc wrote: C'mon guys. I didn't specify every pylon just like I didn't specify every probe. I only listed the stuff that some people might do differently.
Ohhhh. You're making probes. That's what I was doing wrong!
I just figured your strat was bad when I never got to 9 food to make my first pylon.
What? You make a pylon at 9 supply? I start with a gateway on 13.
On May 05 2012 12:14 WHyTePoWeR wrote: would you be able to use this build for 6 gate pressure variation?
You can do the 1 gate FE part into a 6 gate, yes. That's a very strong all-in play. Teoita is right that you can also use the forge timing to get +1 armor for the 6 gate timing. I'm not 100% sure whether it's better with or without the forge. It's faster without the forge, but +1 armor is great against unupgraded marines.
I can't believe no one mentioned this yet, but in your build order you forgot to mention that you build a pylon on 16, although that is easy to find out from one of your gracefully provided replays
Thank you very much for this build and in depth guide! I am using it as my standard build for PvT, in my goal to improve beyond platinum league. Currently I have great success with it, even against diamond players.
PS. And yes, I registered just to say this. Been a lurker here for forever, but had to say thank you out of huge respect for you and your work.
On May 07 2012 01:55 Fabriziox1 wrote: What woudl you do in response to a bansheee that hits around 6:35 or 6:40 while he is expanding in the back?
On March 10 2012 06:19 kcdc wrote:
If you see nothing at the natural and signs point to 1-1-1:
32 zealot (1 chronoboost) 34 robo 34 assimilator
Pull your troops back to your natural. Use your 2 unit warp-in at 6:00 to warp 2 stalkers in to defend your mineral line in your main. Remember to actually put the stalkers IN the mineral line because it's going to be really annoying when hellions drop somewhere you don't expect and get free shots while your stalkers walk over. Build pylons at the normal times, but be sure to spread them to spot incoming drops and banshees. Send a probe to monitor T's natural, and chronoboost 2 observers as soon as your robo finishes.
Take your third gas, and continue warping in stalkers and zealots. You want to prioritize stalkers as gas allows until you have about 6 for harass-defense. After ~6 stalkers, you want to favor zealots as they're better for defeating the eventual push. Keep 3 stalkers in each mineral line until the push comes. Get 3 more gates (total of 5) and cut probe production entirely when you reach ~38 workers.
If it's a normal 1-1-1 with tanks, get an immortal after 2 observers and then spend your next 200 gas on a robo support bay. Having a colossus is important for beating late all-ins at 12:30 or later because the marine ball will get too big with too little surface area to beat it consistently with just zealots+guardian shield. If the push leaves earlier, you can just cancel the support bay to get out a couple extra units. Pull some probes off of gas as you'll mostly need zealots from this point on.
If it's a 2-port banshee all-in, get a forge and a stargate. Cannon the crap out of your natural, get some phoenixes, and then get a support bay if he's just chilling outside your natural. If you have enough cannons, he can't push without tanks, and you'll have a colossus by the time he can start sieging your cannons.
Kill whatever push he sends your way and collect your victory.
If it's cloaked banshee into expansion instead of an all-in, do a 2 colossus timing with thermal lance.
EDIT: To clarify, you said that there were no hard counters to this build. I believe a gasless FE into 3rd cc off of 1rax would pretty much hard counter this as you have no way to slow down the T macro if you're teching so greedily. A swarm of 3 base, max barracks MMM (no vikings, that's the key here, tonssss of medivacs) would handle this type of style.
If you want we can test it out in a custom, I know I've run into you on ladder several times and this seems to work well against your style.
On May 07 2012 23:48 ButtCraft wrote: I think I can crush this with standard 3cc build.
EDIT: To clarify, you said that there were no hard counters to this build. I believe a gasless FE into 3rd cc off of 1rax would pretty much hard counter this as you have no way to slow down the T macro if you're teching so greedily. A swarm of 3 base, max barracks MMM (no vikings, that's the key here, tonssss of medivacs) would handle this type of style.
If you want we can test it out in a custom, I know I've run into you on ladder several times and this seems to work well against your style.
User was warned for this post
(1) I've played a ton and I've lost to many different things, but that doesn't mean those builds counter this one. Sometimes I just get outplayed.
(2) Standard fast triple orbital is a very strong build, but it's definitely not a hard counter to this build. Yes, triple orbital eventually gets more stuff than a standard 2 base medivac build, but T's tech is delayed and a P using this build will have no problem securing their 10 minute third while pressuring with storm. T typically doesn't float the third CC to a base until I'm expanding to my third, so the resource advantage isn't as large as you'd think. Additionally, my tech advantage with storm is great for negating the extra marines that MULES give you, so the fast third CC isn't a big deal.
(3) My build doesn't actually spend as much on tech as other common builds--it just spend the tech resources earlier and faster. If you think about a typical colossus build, P gets robo, support bay, thermal lance, twilight council, blink, charge and often 2 forges of upgrades. My build swaps the support bay and thermal lance for archives and storm (same cost) and I don't get blink or a second forge. So in the mid-game, I've actually spent less on tech than a typical colossus build, but by keeping my early game army as thin as possible, I'm able to get my tech up much faster. Compared to a colossus build, I have less stuff up to 8 minutes or so, but I have a bigger, more mobile force in the 10-16 minute window.
Been a fan since the 1000 post thread you made about the "MC 1 gate FE"
Anyway, was just wondering about this style of desrow which gets fast storm too except off of 1 gate robo.
storm 12min w/ no stalker build 4chrono on nexus skip zealot chrono first stalker 23 nexus 23 2nd gas 4:50 robo make 2 obs 5:50 +2 gates 6:45 double gas at natural 7:00 twillight 4sentrys then zealots 8:00 templar archive 8:20 charge 8:40 add 3 gates instead of warp in 9:00 start storm 9:10 add 2more gates up to 8 9:30 make 2 templar 10:30 have storm and start massing zealots double forge around 13min
It seems REALLY greedy but I guess if the terran gives you enough of a window you'll be able to hold it for a long macro game. I don't know how this would do against early two or three raxes. It's like your build but lacks a forge and instead has 2 observers. I know that you don't like going robo because you'd lack gas but this build gets the four gases pretty fast so I guess that can kinda make up for the fact that you went robo? I just can't wrap my head around not getting and observer early-ish to be able to hold of crazy stuff. I mean, if you're experienced enough you can probably hold anything you've seen before no problem but like you said, a well executed 1-1-1 can sometimes get you and there are times that even you make mistakes with your reads so I would think that an observer would help or does it come out too late?
That sounds like a very reasonable build. I didn't watch the video, so I'm not sure exactly what the 1 gate FE is or how safe it is against early barracks pressure, but you could always swap the 1 gate FE's to whichever you prefer.
It seems like desRow is doing the same 2 base templar build that I do against gasless CC except he goes robo -> storm -> double forge whereas I go single forge -> storm -> robo. The result is that he'll have more scouting information, but I'll have a stronger army until 17 minutes or so when his upgrades catch up to mine. I'll hit 1/3 before he hits 2/2, but he'll probably hit 3/3 before I do.
It seems like a reasonable trade-off. For one thing, you'll be able to tell triple orbital from 2 base cloaked banshee. You'll also see marine-tank attacks coming which can be a little tricky since they can hit a little before your storm timing.
On the other hand, the slower armor upgrades are a real cost when you're fighting marines with chargelots in the mid-game.
All in all, I think it's reasonable, but I wouldn't say either option is better than the other. They're iterations of the same concept which is to time storm in such a way that you can afford skip stalkers, since skipping stalkers allows you a stronger army and faster tech.
On May 08 2012 12:19 eery1 wrote: Been a fan since the 1000 post thread you made about the "MC 1 gate FE"
I think you're confusing kcdc for someone else.
Think eery's point was that kcdc made a thread theorizing one branch of the build commonly called the "MC 1 gate FE" way back before MC was doing it. I assume that's why he added the
This was my standard build 6 months ago ( though less refined ). Then I decided to give a try to CreatorPrime's double-forge, and never got that much success with it. Recently I decided to go back to this build, and I'm definitely more comfortable with it. Holding the first stim + medivac push is so much easier, and your storm timing really makes Terrans think twice about attacking you, or trying to delay your third. In fact, if you do it well, you can make a very strong non-all-in timing push around the 11' mark, and delay Terran's own third ( or kill him if he was too greedy ).
I've been using this style with a lot of success, but I just played a puzzling game and I'm not sure how to react. The Terran opened 1 rax FE, and around the 7:30 mark I found no marauders, and VERY few marines. Only a single bunker. I figured banshees, so I built a cannon in each mineral line and got a robo, only to find that he got a third orbital. When his stim timing came I was too spread apart in my tech and had nothing. What is the correct response to this? I've been killed by late 1-1-1 variations or just plain cloaked banshees altogether and don't really understand what to do with these kind of styles.
On May 08 2012 12:19 eery1 wrote: Been a fan since the 1000 post thread you made about the "MC 1 gate FE"
I think you're confusing kcdc for someone else.
Think eery's point was that kcdc made a thread theorizing one branch of the build commonly called the "MC 1 gate FE" way back before MC was doing it. I assume that's why he added the
yea his first 1gate FE thread is quite similar to MC's 1gate FE, it's probably what eery1 was referring to
That sounds like a very reasonable build. I didn't watch the video, so I'm not sure exactly what the 1 gate FE is or how safe it is against early barracks pressure, but you could always swap the 1 gate FE's to whichever you prefer.
It seems like desRow is doing the same 2 base templar build that I do against gasless CC except he goes robo -> storm -> double forge whereas I go single forge -> storm -> robo. The result is that he'll have more scouting information, but I'll have a stronger army until 17 minutes or so when his upgrades catch up to mine. I'll hit 1/3 before he hits 2/2, but he'll probably hit 3/3 before I do.
It seems like a reasonable trade-off. For one thing, you'll be able to tell triple orbital from 2 base cloaked banshee. You'll also see marine-tank attacks coming which can be a little tricky since they can hit a little before your storm timing.
On the other hand, the slower armor upgrades are a real cost when you're fighting marines with chargelots in the mid-game.
All in all, I think it's reasonable, but I wouldn't say either option is better than the other. They're iterations of the same concept which is to time storm in such a way that you can afford skip stalkers, since skipping stalkers allows you a stronger army and faster tech.
Yupyup, definitely seems like a preferrence type deal. One gives more information via obs for safety as part of the build no matter what while the other doesn't seem to risk saftey as much as you'd think because it gives you a beefy enough army to handle most things. I'll probably play around with your build first just cuz you know better. Anyway, the stalker poking around is really useful and once you see a marauder or two it doesn't take a genius to guess what happens next.
SCORE!!! I FOUND MY OLD ACCOUNT!!! HAHAHAHAHA. Check out the join date on this baby )) [eery1 is the acct I made dabbling in sc2. I never really used this account cuz I never really had anything to say about BW lol]
On May 08 2012 12:19 eery1 wrote: Been a fan since the 1000 post thread you made about the "MC 1 gate FE"
I think you're confusing kcdc for someone else.
Think eery's point was that kcdc made a thread theorizing one branch of the build commonly called the "MC 1 gate FE" way back before MC was doing it. I assume that's why he added the
yea his first 1gate FE thread is quite similar to MC's 1gate FE, it's probably what eery1 was referring to
Yeah, I was referring to the first kcdc 1 gate FE thread which was pretty much the same thing as the MC 1 gate FE haha. ZSS with a nexus at thirty into three gate robo :D
Haha, I'm a NrGmonk fan too, don't worry )
edit: Sorry for the double post. Won't happen again. I made a mistake and posted an edit in the wrong box... then I got excited about finding my old account... Won't happen again, promise <3<3<3
On May 09 2012 15:00 bgalang92 wrote: I've been using this style with a lot of success, but I just played a puzzling game and I'm not sure how to react. The Terran opened 1 rax FE, and around the 7:30 mark I found no marauders, and VERY few marines. Only a single bunker. I figured banshees, so I built a cannon in each mineral line and got a robo, only to find that he got a third orbital. When his stim timing came I was too spread apart in my tech and had nothing. What is the correct response to this? I've been killed by late 1-1-1 variations or just plain cloaked banshees altogether and don't really understand what to do with these kind of styles.
I'm a little confused by your question. If they're doing a 1-base build, you don't go 2-base templar. Instead, get gateways and a robo and play accordingly.
If they're doing a gasless CC opening, then I go 2-base templar. One of weakness of skipping the early robo against gasless CC is that you usually can't tell 2-base cloaked banshee from triple orbital, so when you scout no marauders and a low marine count with your stalker pokes, you have to build a robo and an obs before you get storm if you want to play safe. The cost of the robo and the obs slows you down a bit and isn't optimal against triple orbital, but it's not that bad either. You don't know whether they're going triple orbital or cloaked banshee, but you do know that they're not doing a fast medivac timing, so it's okay for your storm timing to be a little late.
And of course, getting the robo only when you're forced to is more cost efficient than getting it every time in order to scout whether you were forced to.
Also, I don't think you need the cannons. I believe gasless CC -> cloaked banshee finishes cloak at about 9:00, so as long as you start your robo by 7:35 or so, you shouldn't take too much damage. The upcoming observer buff reducing build time from 40 seconds to 30 seconds should allow you to start your robo as late as 7:40 or so and still be safe without cannons.
Thanks for this build, KCDC. I've been reading the thread since you originally posted it but my focus has been on PvP and PvZ. I just started using this 2 days ago and I really enjoy the way Terran run away when they scan my 2 templar.
I've grown so tired of opening robo and I feel that Terran's have gotten so good at sniping single collosi. They usually stim and run into me when they do their 10:30 medi timing attack. Now, they are running home.
Storm is also more fun. I understand why you play slower in this MU when going templar. They require a lot of babysitting and positioning to make work.
Thanks guys, glad you like the build and that it's working for most of you. Post some reps! I've forced myself to stop playing (SC2 was taking too much time, and I'm too competitive to only play a little), so I'd love to see how the style is working for others. It's a fun style to watch.
I'm really having issues with cloakshees as well, or at least the threat of them. At work, don't have replays, yada yada, but if you'd be so good....
Particularly this bit:
On May 10 2012 02:20 kcdc wrote:You don't know whether they're going triple orbital or cloaked banshee, but you do know that they're not doing a fast medivac timing, so it's okay for your storm timing to be a little late.
How do you know they're not doing the medivac timing if you're only poking with one stalker, though? That's my problem.
I'm finding that they can consistently shoo me away with a small handful of marines in a bunker and never show me what they've really got, unless they're stupid enough to leave a marauder at their ramp. I'm thus forced to take a robo and slow my storm every game, and I've died a couple times upon finding out that there was 'rauder/stim back there after all.
Now, I'll readily admit I'm terrible, but I just don't feel like the single stalker poke threatens the terran enough to make him show his hand. What other tells do you look for to confirm banshees/triple OC? What about rine only medivac timings?
Just count units and make a read. A safe triple orbital or cloaked banshee build should have 3 bunkers, so if there's only 1, you should have a good read that they're planning aggression. And maybe Terrans only started getting smart recently, but when I played, they rallied their marauders to the front so that you could scout that first marauder before they finished concussive shells just about every time.
And I don't know about marine-only medivac timings. In my experience, the medivac timing would hit at 10:30 like clockwork, but I think I saw an MKP game where he had his double medivac timing between 9 and 10 minutes. I'm not sure what he did differently, but that could be hard to beat with my build. I'm not exactly sure what it was tho--maybe he cut upgrades or had a smaller force or something.
Something I really dislike about this build is the lack of a robo. In the majority of the parting games I've watched this season (even the very similar 2 base templar build he does on entombed valley in the gstl finals and his editted fast 3 base builds), he gets a robo to be safe. The thing about skipping robo is that any trickery from the terran can kill you and thats a risk that parting at least does not want to take apparently.
If the terran goes for fast 3 cc and only builds one bunker, you get a bad read. If the terran goes for banshees and gets a bunker, you get a bad read. If the terran hides his marauders, you get a bad read. It seems like if the terran knows his stuff or tries to mind game you, you can never get any real info from poking the front. Something I'm sure parting has realized too is that its not worth it to lose to something stupid like cloaked banshees or some other weird build and the robo keeps you safe from that. If you watch partings build on entombed at the gstl finals, he uses a build very similar to yours but with slightly later timings. I suggest that anyone using a 2 base templar style at least watch those games and think about adding in that robo for the observers.
On May 10 2012 12:45 kcdc wrote: And I don't know about marine-only medivac timings. In my experience, the medivac timing would hit at 10:30 like clockwork, but I think I saw an MKP game where he had his double medivac timing between 9 and 10 minutes. I'm not sure what he did differently, but that could be hard to beat with my build. I'm not exactly sure what it was tho--maybe he cut upgrades or had a smaller force or something.
Oh and the medivac style you were looking for hits at 9:30 and is also on the mkp vs parting game on entombed. He gets a fast +1 weapons before any addons i think and pushes out with stim and no combat shields with his first two medivacs rallied. You should be able to hold with an archon and good forcefields, its only like 2 medivacs worth of units. The real trouble is knowing where the attack is, but parting has 2 observers so he can see the army movements of parting.
So I went back to check all of partings timings on his stuff, and it turns out he delays storm and charge for a lot longer than I thought he did. Not entirely sure why.
Some differences between the kcdc templar build and partings templar build:
kcdc gets faster 3rd gas kcdc gets a faster forge and gets the +1 weapons by 10:30 (100 gas) kcdc gets a fast storm and charge (400 gas) parting gets a robo and 2 obs (250 gas) parting goes up to 6 stalkers and gets 4 templar at the 10 minute mark (2 for feedback and 2 for an archon) (150 more gas for the stalkers, and 300 for the 2 templar, 450 more total).
So the difference in kcdc's build and partings is actually quite different. I suspect that there must be some wonky timings between 8-10 minutes that parting wants to be safe against, so he delays storm and gets out more units and observers but I'm not entirely sure why he skips both storm and charge. The 2 base templar I do gets a fast robo, skips charge and gets storm instead but I'm not sure the reasoning for partings decisions (if any knowledgable toss can step in here ).
Also, I was wrong on the medi timing for mkp, he hits at around 9:50-10:00, not 9:30.
If anyone wants to check out the games, here's a couple.
parting vs polt in code s round of 32 group h THIS GAME IS FREE TO WATCH!!!! (yay gom) (polt does a slightly later 2 medi timing than mkp, parting does the same build) http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67119
EDIT: Game 4 of MVP vs Parting last night, why i dont like partings 2 base templar build anymore x.x
Thanks for the comments Zalo. A lot of helpful information there.
I do think you can afford to get a robo and an obs and still have templar out in time to be safe without stalkers--it might be close, but you could delay an upgrade if you really had to.
But the robo timing doesn't need to be earlier than 7:40 to be safe against cloaked banshees, so why not do a 7:30 stalker poke and make the robo only if you don't see a marauder? You're still 100% safe, but you've also allowed yourself the possibility of a more efficient build in the event that you are able to scout a marauder.
The alternative would be to get the robo blindly every game which is no safer or more efficient than what I'd do. The one advantage of the blind robo is if you're committing to getting it blindly, you don't have to wait for the 7:30 scouting cue when a marauder should reach T's front, so you have more freedom about when you build it. If you get it earlier, it will disrupt some other timing in the build, but you'll also have an observer earlier to scout what T is doing.
I will caution that there is a difference between information and actionable information. If you're going to jerk your build around to get an early observer, you want the scouting information it gives you to significantly alter your build. Personally, I suspect that I wouldn't change my timings much in response to scouting most Terran builds I can think of. Maybe against triple orbital, I'd take my third on 3 gates instead of 6 and chronoboost upgrades instead of storm and charge research. But for 4 out of 5 games, the information would just be an expensive security blanket that wouldn't change my build at all, and I would have been better off trying to delay or skip my robo.
I used to do a similar style to kcdc's and the main reason I stopped was the lack of robo. There are 2 main circumstances where I found I really wanted the robo, not including vs the fast 3cc build.
The first is when you're against a 2 base banshee opening. Even if you assume you can poke the front, find a lack of units, and re-actively build a robo, you run into another problem: you don't know what the terran followup is because of your delayed robo. He can either take a greedy 3rd behind it(with or without tanks) or do a 2 base all-in. You won't be able to send an observer to scout it out in time, because you need to keep your first 2 obs at home.
The 2nd is versus drops. Without observers, it's hard to keep all your bases in check. I found myself consistently being doom dropped by terran and even though I had a templar and 6 chargelots in position to intercept, it wasn't enough versus 4+ medivacs. Often it felt like a crapshoot and I didn't like the uncertainty the lack of observers brought.
There are also a lot of other subtle things that parting does different from every other protoss. Instead of the traditional 3->6 gates, parting always goes 3->5->7 gates. In adidition, parting's style revolves around observers just as much as it does templar. The observer/templar combination is what makes him so scary late game. Parting goes 3 very early sentry and stops there, which is a common trend evolving in PvT, fewer sentries in the early game. Parting goes for a rather fast templar archives to use as an initial gas dump for archons and feedback. Because of the fast robo/obs, parting's twilgiht/templar archives are delayed so if parting researches charge or storm, they won't be done by the time a standard 2 medivac push would hit, so instead he relies on units to fend off the initial push. Instead of charge or storm, he relies on observers, stalkers, and feedback to stop initial drops. Then he more gradually fits in both charge and storm.
Monk, if your concern is having vision for a 4 medivac timing, it's very easy to get an observer before 11 minutes. I don't recall exactly the time that I tended to get my robo, but as a general rule, the later you get it, the less it disrupts your build. A 7:40 robo is a small disruption, but a 9 minute robo should be easier to work in.
Anyway, the robo timing is really a matter of preference. If you want a very early robo, you can do what a lot of the pros do which is to get a robo before the forge, start +1 armor when I'd start +1 weapons, and go straight into +2 armor. This would essentially be skipping +1 weapons and getting an early robo and obs instead. Your storm and charge will be 125/75 slower, but that's just a 10 second or so delay.
I played with a delayed obs because I didn't feel like I needed it earlier. I could see the medivac timing coming from a watch tower, and it seemed that storm and charge shut drops down cold until I had an observer short after the timing. But getting an obs is a minor tweak, so don't the fact that I didn't get an observer chase you away form this build.
On May 11 2012 00:23 NrGmonk wrote: Because of the fast robo/obs, parting's twilgiht/templar archives are delayed so if parting researches charge or storm, they won't be done by the time a standard 2 medivac push would hit, so instead he relies on units to fend off the initial push. Instead of charge or storm, he relies on observers, stalkers, and feedback to stop initial drops. Then he more gradually fits in both charge and storm.
Something I noticed, is that if you take your 3rd gas and 4th gas when parting takes only his 3rd, you can fit in a quick charge or storm, depending on preference. Its nice to have charge at 10ish minutes along with the rest of the tech parting gets.
Something I've been experimenting with is doing a nexus first into forge with this build. Its a bit rough atm, but I get 0/2 out in time for the medivac push, along with observers and a fast charge that finishes at 9:30. The timings early game are a bit rough but I think you should experiment with the ffe, the fast upgrades complements 2 base templar quite well. Also, you can get your 3rd/4th gas alot quicker to give you more wiggle room for extra tech.
I've been trying to replicate your overall style during the past two months or so and I have to say that I really really like it! Your 1 gate FE opener has been my opener in every single PvT game for the last 6 months.
I especially like your responses to the no gas T FE and the two rax. I thought you couldn't get away with only two gates against a gasless FE but it actually lines up really nicely with the 10 min medivac timing as long as you don't screw up your warpins. Having two templar with storm actually bolsters your army so much that you can crush the push with almost no losses yourself.
I would like to say first off, thank you for writing up this guide. It is working wonders and has really improved my PvT.
I have a few questions regarding Warp Gates off of two bases.
You state in your guide that a Protoss player should be able to fend off the typical Medivac push from a Terran player with consistent Warp-ins using only two warp gates. While I find this to be true, I never know when is the right time to put down additional Gateways and a Robo for the thirteen minute push. It would be so helpful if you specified around when you put down the 3rd, 4th, or even 5th Gateway. Please keep in mind that my macro is nowhere near perfect, and this additional information could potentially help me get a solid foundation down.
Glad you like the build. I quit playing a long time ago (but I still watch games and check in on TL from time to time), so I honestly don't remember much more than I wrote in the guide. This part might be what you're looking for tho:
In general, I recommend getting to 6 gateways as you warp in your 1st 2 templar and then starting your third nexus. This is good on a map like Shakuras Plateau where the third base is kind of far away, and it gets the nexus started shortly before 10:30. Alternatively, you can take your third nexus after your 4th gate which gets the nexus timing into the lower 10's. This is good for maps with a relatively close third like Cloud Kingdom. On Entombed Valley, you can actually take the third nexus off of 2 gates under 10 minutes.
After you have 6 gates and your third base started, build a robo when resources allow, and then add 4 more gates up to a total of 10. By about 13 minutes, you should be out on the map holding a central watch tower with 1 templar in each base for drop defense. Take 2 probes and build pylons all over the map. 1 probe should build probes in areas that will be useful to reinforce your army and the other should build pylons all over for map vision.
Ah kcdc i remember i used to play you a lot back when i was on the ladder, we always had great games. I stopped playing for a long time for the same reason you did, taking up too much time and i cant just play SC a little because of how competitive i was. Things have calmed down for me now tho and i take medication to take my competitive edge off so ive started gaming again the last two months, already back in top 8 masters :oP hope everything outside of SC2 is going good with you. Good guide btw too bad i dont play protoss to use it ;o)
On August 31 2012 09:45 Pookie Monster wrote: Ah kcdc i remember i used to play you a lot back when i was on the ladder, we always had great games. I stopped playing for a long time for the same reason you did, taking up too much time and i cant just play SC a little because of how competitive i was. Things have calmed down for me now tho and i take medication to take my competitive edge off so ive started gaming again the last two months, already back in top 8 masters :oP hope everything outside of SC2 is going good with you. Good guide btw too bad i dont play protoss to use it ;o)
Thanks, yeah, we had some epic games. You had good variance in your styles--I think I remember hard-hitting bio timings, bunker contains, harass openings, mech, maybe even some mass air shit. So annoying, hah. Good luck dude.
On September 04 2012 01:13 Sated wrote: I just finished editing the LP article on this build so that it matches this guide rather than kcdc's old guide. I don't personally play this style so all I've done is transcribe over the original post, so if someone who has more experience with the build could give it a scan to point out any obvious mistakes (or anything that might need changing) to me via PM then that'd be cool.
(It bugs me how LP decided to capitalise the first letter of that page name )
Thanks for putting that together! It looks really good. I wonder if anyone uses LP tho. Of course, it'll be used more if it has high-quality content, and you did a nice job with it. When I had last checked LP, it had basically nothing that was relevant to the modern game, so hopefully others are doing great work on it too.
On September 04 2012 07:23 Baconcio wrote: Where's the 16 pylon? ._.
It's funny to me how people always ask about the 16 pylon, but not the 9 pylon or any of the other obvious buildings, probes, etc that I didn't list. I only specified timings for things that could reasonably be at a different time.
I've been seeing some terrans do a 2 medivac timing that hits at 9:30 in obs games. I'm not entirely sure what they are doing differently to do the timing to hit at that time because I haven't really paid that much attention before the attack, but I'm sure the standing army is weaker as a result or maybe they're an upgrade short. Would the build as is still be strong against the timing?
On October 26 2012 01:26 WolfBro wrote: Sorry, hope this doesn't count as a necro.
I've been seeing some terrans do a 2 medivac timing that hits at 9:30 in obs games. I'm not entirely sure what they are doing differently to do the timing to hit at that time because I haven't really paid that much attention before the attack, but I'm sure the standing army is weaker as a result or maybe they're an upgrade short. Would the build as is still be strong against the timing as is?
Ha, I just talked to kcdc about this. The Terrans aren't doing anything differently, just doing their build more optimally, getting faster medivacs. It's entirely possible to hit such a fast timing with the standard Terran build. A small map also helps greatly. I'll let kcdc answer the actual question.
On October 26 2012 01:26 WolfBro wrote: Sorry, hope this doesn't count as a necro.
I've been seeing some terrans do a 2 medivac timing that hits at 9:30 in obs games. I'm not entirely sure what they are doing differently to do the timing to hit at that time because I haven't really paid that much attention before the attack, but I'm sure the standing army is weaker as a result or maybe they're an upgrade short. Would the build as is still be strong against the timing?
The standard timing hits between 10:10 and 10:30 with 3 barracks, 2 medivacs, stim, combat shield and +1 weapons. If T cuts something, they can hit sooner. For example, in a recent game, I went nexus first and T responded by skipping the third barracks for a faster factory, and the medivac timing hit at about 9:40.
These faster attacks are pretty rare in the current metagame, but you should have an idea they're coming if you're holding a watchtower with your stalker. At this point, I'd recommend morphing archons and warping in some stalkers for drop defense. It's possible that you will be able to forcefield your front closed until you have storm, so make a judgement call on whether you want to morph all your templar to archons. It's good to keep 1 templar with your stalkers in your main to feedback the drops before finishing them with stalkers.
I'm going to try this next chance I get, I've been having massive troubles in my PvT lately, though I think it has more to do with the fact that my lategame templar cnotrol is virtually nonexistant. I think this is still a solid build though. And as to this last question kcdc answered, I think it is also worth noting that if he skips the third barracks for a faster factory, your opponent will have less bio to attack with.
What is a good amount of stalkers to leave behind in these instances? I generally keep 3-4 back, but I find I often can't take out the medivac fast enough and the drop still occurs. It may just be placement of my stalkers since I'm often engrossed with making sure the don't push my front. What is a good amount I should leave in my main with decent awareness?
I think the common consensus is you leave 6 stalkers. You really don't want more than that though. And be vigilant with the minimap, there's just no going around that
I remember this build and I used it a lot back in the day... Now sometimes I play a modified version (especially on 2p maps) with only 2 boosts on probes early game, instead boost out 2 zealots before core is finished and then keep boosting stalkers. Make nexus as usual, after 2nd stalker make 2nd gas and start probe production again. This gives you early and strong pressure, even if they bunker up they are stuck in their base and if they don't have a bunker, didn't wall off, went for an expand etc they usually die right there, and you even have an expansion to back it up.
i lost a game on daybreak where ho moved out at 9:00 min and reached my base at 10 min with 2 medivac drops and i lost cause he invested also in a small force at expansion. i had no strom ready i guess if i see that i have to build 1 archon or?
On November 03 2012 21:00 livestar wrote: i lost a game on daybreak where ho moved out at 9:00 min and reached my base at 10 min with 2 medivac drops and i lost cause he invested also in a small force at expansion. i had no strom ready i guess if i see that i have to build 1 archon or?
If storm is too far away either feedback and archon or just archon. I like feedback better, especially if you have some forcefields to stall them while your archon is morphing (feedback got a good range)
I kinda feel like cyber or pylon scouts are too late because terrans are walling off and faking expansions where you have no idea of if they are really doing it or not. Lately i've died to fast 3 rax mass marines with fake exp because of this so i tend to scout after first gate otherwise i may not be able to see gas timings or even get inside terran base and good terrans abuse these kind of stuff and there is no way you can scout with anything else than probe that early in the game.
hey, nice 75% win ratio vs terrans can you please explain why you get angry at me , im just a manner nice guy and you bad manner me like this lol. http://drop.sc/270590 tvp isnt my specialty so....sorry..
On November 03 2012 21:37 Aelfric wrote: I kinda feel like cyber or pylon scouts are too late because terrans are walling off and faking expansions where you have no idea of if they are really doing it or not. Lately i've died to fast 3 rax mass marines with fake exp because of this so i tend to scout after first gate otherwise i may not be able to see gas timings or even get inside terran base and good terrans abuse these kind of stuff and there is no way you can scout with anything else than probe that early in the game.
This has been talked to death. If you can have good reads with your probe poke as well as a zealot/stalker poke, you should be able to hold off anything, especially with a 1gate fe like this which doesn't cut units. Anything else is an execution problem on your part, mostly.
On November 03 2012 21:53 scranton wrote: hey, nice 75% win ratio vs terrans can you please explain why you get angry at me , im just a manner nice guy and you bad manner me like this lol. http://drop.sc/270590 tvp isnt my specialty so....sorry..
I'm usually friendly on ladder, but sometimes I get mad at myself for losing to dumb stuff. I'm guessing you did some sort of 1-base play. I get especially annoyed if I lose to reactor 2-rax, for example, because this build order (and almost all Protoss build orders) is such a hard counter to 2-rax that I must have had to do something really bad to lose.
Ah, checked the chat log. I remember that game. It was on Daybreak and you camped the middle with planetary fotresses. I hate lategame PvT and PvZ on Daybreak because it's so easy to shut down all the action once you take the middle base. Zerg builds 50 spines, and T build planetaries and stacks ghosts. Anyway, I don't think what I said was really very BM, so I don't know why you're posting it here except maybe to brag about beating me......which isn't very hard. I can't remember the last time I played someone that didn't have at least 50% more APM than me. You have more than double. Good work.
On November 03 2012 21:53 scranton wrote: hey, nice 75% win ratio vs terrans can you please explain why you get angry at me , im just a manner nice guy and you bad manner me like this lol. http://drop.sc/270590 tvp isnt my specialty so....sorry..
lol scrub....."hey nice 75% win rate", ya...look at this post date...march...hmm...its NOVEMBER...i wonder if terrans maybe got better and thought up a new build!