Hello everyone, I’m Tech and I’m a highish master protoss on EU server, and today I want to show you a build that sase has been doing on Korean ladder in the PvP matchup.
So you might ask: What is so revolutionary about this build that it deserves a guide? Because it’s a reasonably safe expo build while still putting on pressure in the early game!
This build is not for the weak stomached people, it has a high execution level so I would not recommend doing this until you can hit all the timings spot on. As a good example even I don’t have the build down 100%, even after doing it for at least 30-40 games. 1 mistake and you will lose to a lot of common builds. Besides that you don’t scout at all (!!!) on 2 player maps and you only scout very, very late on 4 player maps
9 Pylon 13 Gate 14 Pylon 16 Gas ( mine only with 2 probes ) 17 Gas( mine only with 2 probes ) 18 Zealot 21 Pylon 22 Cybernetics Core 22 Zealot 25 Second gateway 26 First stalker no Chrono
You spend 3 chrono’s on your nexus, so after first pylon finishes, 12-13 food probes and as soon as you have 25 energy again you chrono on the nexus again, 15-16 food probes. On 13, scout for the most obvious proxy locations ( i.e. shakura’s plateau in your base and in the middle between two naturals behind the bush ) to check for proxies.
4 Additional stalkers out of your 2 gateways and spend all your chrono on them to get them out Asap. Once you hit another 25 energy on your nexus you chrono boost your warpgate tech once to have it finish up at the time where you will hit him.
At the 6:00 mark you have 400 minerals saved up to plant down a nexus. This is in the midst of your attack at the front so this requires a lot of multitask to get down correctly.
Do not cut probes for anything except your follow up tech choice after you get the nexus up. For example in case of a DT rush you need to cut probes for a few seconds to get the Robotics facilty ASAP.
As soon as you plant down your nexus put 1 extra probe on each gas to go up to the optimal 3 per gas geyser.
On a 4 player map you can scout once you put down your second gateway
Follow up:
Don’t be overly aggressive with your first two zealots and 1 stalker. This can result in your two zealots being picked off by a 3 stalker rush build and then you lose a lot of your firepower in your push. The 3 stalker rush into reactive 5 stalker build is the best way to “counter” this build because it can be hard to get a decent proxy pylon up.
If for some reason you cannot break him ( he has immortal out + sentry and it would be suicide for example ) warp in two sentries as you first units instead of 2 stalkers and delay him from getting out of his base. 3 gate robo can hit hard is you don't ahve the production yet so try to delay him as long as possible.
You need to get a proxy pylon up close to his base, and if you have a feeling you can kill him you also need to get on up at his ramp or even on top of his ramp. If he was too tech greedy you will damage him heavily while you get your expansion up safely. You have to pin him on his tech route with this aggression, or you have to play it ultra safe after you get your expo up. Your follow up tech choice will be dependent on what you see.
So there are a few follow ups that you can do with this build. Sase’s personal favourite is a 5 gate blink stalker follow up, with a late robo to get an observer out in case your opponent gets out enough immortals and sentries to defend a secondary ramp and get an expo up. I will list the most common 1 base builds and the correct follow up.
You need to cut probes to get a robo out as soon as possible. Add 2 more gateways and start adding in immortals as soon as the robo finishes. You can safely get a observer out after the first two immortals. Your gateway production will be same of his, but you have the econ to get immortals on top of that, so you will beat him in a war of attrition.
You want to go 5 gate blink stalker with a delayed robo for an observer. Once you have your expansion planted down you will start your twilight council as soon as you have the minerals for it. Stay on two gateways if you want to have a larger eco advantage, or cut probes if you want to be more aggressive once your blink hits. I personally prefer to keep the pressure on so I cut probes to put down 3 more gateways immediately after the twilight council. In order to support 5 gate blink stalker you need to get a third gas running at your natural, take it whenever your 3 extra gateways finish up. Start setting upf or a potential basetrade if he wants to do an 1 base colossi all in on you. You will win this if you have a few probes on the map to rebuild nexi and just keep killing off units where possible and snipe buildings with your blink stalkers
You will do damage to a DT rush build if he skips sentries. He will not have the fire power to actually kill off your initial 7 stalkers and 2 zealots( 2 stalkers from warp ins ) that are in his base. He will need to warp in at least 1 DT to defend your agresison, and even then you can sack your units to do damage to his econ so that you force him into a 1 base all in chargelot archon bust. If you scout the DT shrine, you need to cut probes to get the robo out as soon as possible. And depending on how close he gets a proxy pylon up to your base you’ll have ample time to get a obs out. On most maps if he warps in the DT semi close to your base, you will get an obs out in time. A smart DT player will go for your probes so you might have to run them away for a few moments. If he goes after your robo he’s an idiot and he will do no damage with his DT’s. Get a second obs, and start walling off your secondary ramp a little bit to funnel chargelots into a small place. Your army composition should be a lot of stalkers/zealots and a few sentries of 5 gateways.
There are two different phoenix openings, the 3 gate phoenix, or the 2 gate phoenix robo. 2 gate robo is safe against everything but gets a lot of tech on 1 base, so you should be able to do damage if his BO is not 100% crisp. the 3 gate phoenix build is the weakest variation for the midgame. Regardless of the build a 5 gate blink follow up is recommended. If he expo’s and gets a ton of immortals a chargelot archon bust off 8 gates is extremely viable
Thank him for going 4 gate because you just have an auto win. You will have more firepower at 5:45 then him, and with your superior stalker count he should never get a pylon up at your ramp or even close to your secondary ramp. Warp in 2 sentries as soon as your warpgates are done and go up to 4 gates. You will have a superior econ so expo as soon as you can handle his army, and go kill him. In worst case you force a lot of sentries. get a robo up to keep yourself safe from DT follow ups and blink follow ups. If he tries to expo I would go into a 6 gate chargelot archon bust or speed prism immortal drops to pressure him.
You can use this on all maps except tal darim altar, simply due to the fact that you cannot FF off his 4 gate while you are going up to 4 gates yourself. All other maps are completely viable and perfectly safe
Here are a few of my own replays where I managed to pull off the build pretty good and actually didn’t mess up too much . Some of the replays are against a same level protoss player from my team.
Current challenges [spoiler] getting a replay where opponent goes 3 gate robo and tries to bust my expansion with it. In order to survive this you warp in sentries to delay his push. [spoiler]
If you have any replays of doing this build and wish me to have them attached to the thread pm me with the link to where i can download it, and tell me a little bit about what you did, and why.
If there is anything missing let me know, and if you can find any replay from Sase himself doing the build I would LOVE to add them to the thread. But for the time being like many other players that are in korea, they don’t give out any replays, and not even leak one!
Seems great. Eill try it ut maybe post some replays. Wouldnt it be better for 3 guys on one gas and then on second gas add/remove probes as you need the gas? Ill pull out some numbers.
On May 25 2012 05:01 DeluXe1337 wrote: Seems great. Eill try it ut maybe post some replays. Wouldnt it be better for 3 guys on one gas and then on second gas add/remove probes as you need the gas? Ill pull out some numbers.
2 guys on 2 gases nets you more gas than 1 and 3 since you'll have a tiny delay with the 3rd probe waiting for the assim to clear.
On May 25 2012 05:01 DeluXe1337 wrote: Seems great. Eill try it ut maybe post some replays. Wouldnt it be better for 3 guys on one gas and then on second gas add/remove probes as you need the gas? Ill pull out some numbers.
Like Mikelius said you will get more gas with 2 geysers running with 2 probes on each, then with 2 geysers with 3 on 1, and with 1 on the other. Besides that you cannot afford to put 3 probes in gas immediatly or otherwise you will miss your core timing by quite a bit and you will start floating gas sooner then you want to.
Two things that i don't have in the replays yet are 1 gate/1 gate robo expands. I really don't face them at all on ladder but once i face them i will post an update.
I would assume any 1 gate/1 gate robo expand has to sack the nexus in order to stay alive, but we'll see
from build order part: "4 Additional stalkers out of your 3 gateways and spend all your chrono on them to get them out Asap." don't you mean 2 gateways? i think is a typo
also no chrono at first stalker, so spend whatever chrono i have on the following 3 stalkers? can you give me a reason why want them asap but no chrono on first stalker?
looks nice this build, gonna try it out after work this weekend
On May 25 2012 17:41 HExtw wrote: from build order part: "4 Additional stalkers out of your 3 gateways and spend all your chrono on them to get them out Asap." don't you mean 2 gateways? i think is a typo
also no chrono at first stalker, so spend whatever chrono i have on the following 3 stalkers? can you give me a reason why want them asap but no chrono on first stalker?
looks nice this build, gonna try it out after work this weekend
Woops yes that first was a typo and is now fixed, thnx for pointing that out!
You don't want to chrono your first stalker because if you don't chrono it it will line up perfectly with your second gateway so you can start chronoing both gateways. You basically start up 2 stalkers once your 2 gateways are done and you can get 1 stalker out of your first without chrono in that time
If you really care that much about your core, why would you go for a 13 gate? I can get my gate up at 1:33 with 12 supply and with 13 probes 1:38-1:40, its the 5 seconds that can make the difference. And what would you choose, 5 extra minerals or stalker that comes out 5 seconds quicker?
In the DT defense replay, you didn't scout anything else than 3 stalkers before you put down your robo, it seemed like you knew before that he was going dts. According to chat it was probably because he told you he is going dt chargelot and you should have tried to defend it with a 2 robo build. If not what gave you the information to build a robo thinking he is going dts?
On May 25 2012 18:42 Bakkendepao wrote: If you really care that much about your core, why would you go for a 13 gate? I can get my gate up at 1:33 with 12 supply and with 13 probes 1:38-1:40, its the 5 seconds that can make the difference. And what would you choose, 5 extra minerals or stalker that comes out 5 seconds quicker?
Because with a 12 gate your gateway will be idle for about 10 seconds before you can start the first zealot, and with a 13 gate you don't have any delay. Besides that you cannot chrono twice in a row right after eachother when you get a 12 gateway, you will waste half a chrono when you do that.
Try out the build in a BO tester, and then compare it to yours and post the results, if you can get a smooth no bump build with the same amount of units at the same time or faster i'll be glad to hear it, but there is a reason why Sase does a 13 gate instead of a 12 one, it just fits better without cutting into probes, or having your gateways idle at any given point in time.
On May 25 2012 19:24 fanvadmeck wrote: In the DT defense replay, you didn't scout anything else than 3 stalkers before you put down your robo, it seemed like you knew before that he was going dts. According to chat it was probably because he told you he is going dt chargelot and you should have tried to defend it with a 2 robo build. If not what gave you the information to build a robo thinking he is going dts?
We discussed a double robo follow up as a midgame strategy, so that you can start your double robo way before your opponent. Also he wanted to know the utmost safest follow up after i got my nexus up. besides that, entombed valley is a no go with blink, so most reasonable follow up would be a ultra fast colossus with an even faster double robo colossus if he expo's We didn't discuss the DT rush untill he actually did it.
a double robo follow up is only possible once you confirmed he is expoing as well. With my obs i saw no expo, thus i could only conclude a chargelot archon bust off 1 base
I have been watching sase's stream recently. and a lot of his PvPs, and i was gonna steal this build myself and write the guide, so thank you for saving me the effort!
What do you do if someone moves out with 3 gate army +2 immortals right as your expansion finishes? Do you have enaugh forcefields to delay long enaugh untill you have better production?
Really? You took THAT replay? I stand by what i said about 1 Base 1 colo all-in. It'll hit right as whatever tech you chose finishes up and you can't win a baserace with the few Stalkers you have unless your opponent is completely retarded (like me in that replay). I think what you have to do is snipe the colossus, sac your nexus at the natural and FF your main ramp while harassing your way ahead with blink or a warpprism (depending on what tech you chose). We should test that later today.
On May 25 2012 20:03 Illias wrote: Really? You took THAT replay? I stand by what i said about 1 Base 1 colo all-in. It'll hit right as whatever tech you chose finishes up and you can't win a baserace with the few Stalkers you have unless your opponent is completely retarded (like me in that replay). I think what you have to do is snipe the colossus, sac your nexus at the natural and FF your main ramp while harassing your way ahead with blink or a warpprism (depending on what tech you chose). We should test that later today.
Just go baserace, and while he kills your natural your blink will finish, and should be ez win if you baserace.
On May 25 2012 19:37 -Kira wrote: What do you do if someone moves out with 3 gate army +2 immortals right as your expansion finishes? Do you have enaugh forcefields to delay long enaugh untill you have better production?
Good point, i will add that to the OP right now.
You warp in two sentries at his ramp if you cannot break him, and delay his push till you have your production up. If you delay his push by 30 seconds you will have a full warp in round off 5 gateways, if you warp in two more sentries you can delay even more and get another warp in round.
As soon as i come across this in a replay i will post the replay as well
@Illias
yes i took that replay because for the time being it's the best 1 base colossus build i've seen. We agreed that it's not THE best representation of the build but untill i have even better ones this will do
one of the replay shows a semi all-in baserace situation, where my build is tighter and i snipe his two colossis before he even gets to my ramp, check out the shakura's one.
Watched the replays, and although I kind of like the opening ( til ~5'30 ) I'm less than convinced about that early expo.
First of all, I think it's a BO loss against stuff such as 4-gate warp prism. You're only on 2 gates at that time. It's not that likely to happen in ladder, especially since you're pressuring, which forces your opponent on the defensive. But against somebody who scouts and recognizes that build ( the 2 zealots and delayed core sell it ), I think the best you could do is attempt a base trade, and even that I don't think you'd win.
I'm also sceptikal about the early blink timings ( the greedy one, 1 gate blink that hits before 8' ). Do you have replays versus that ?
On May 26 2012 06:11 Nyast wrote: Watched the replays, and although I kind of like the opening ( til ~5'30 ) I'm less than convinced about that early expo.
First of all, I think it's a BO loss against stuff such as 4-gate warp prism. You're only on 2 gates at that time. It's not that likely to happen in ladder, especially since you're pressuring, which forces your opponent on the defensive. But against somebody who scouts and recognizes that build ( the 2 zealots and delayed core sell it ), I think the best you could do is attempt a base trade, and even that I don't think you'd win.
I'm also sceptikal about the early blink timings ( the greedy one, 1 gate blink that hits before 8' ). Do you have replays versus that ?
No build is full proof. Ever. If it were, everyone would use it 100% of the time. If you scout appropriately, you'll know if you're safe.
On May 26 2012 06:11 Nyast wrote: Watched the replays, and although I kind of like the opening ( til ~5'30 ) I'm less than convinced about that early expo.
First of all, I think it's a BO loss against stuff such as 4-gate warp prism. You're only on 2 gates at that time. It's not that likely to happen in ladder, especially since you're pressuring, which forces your opponent on the defensive. But against somebody who scouts and recognizes that build ( the 2 zealots and delayed core sell it ), I think the best you could do is attempt a base trade, and even that I don't think you'd win.
I'm also sceptikal about the early blink timings ( the greedy one, 1 gate blink that hits before 8' ). Do you have replays versus that ?
If opponent plays greedy he will die or at least suffer lots of eco damage. If for some reason you do no damage with your push to a 1 gate greedy tech build, you still have barely enough time to get back home and get 1 immortal out before his blink timing hits.
Warp prism 4 gate i didn't face for a long long time, so that might have some good potential so once i will face it, i will add it to the OP
On May 26 2012 06:11 Nyast wrote: First of all, I think it's a BO loss against stuff such as 4-gate warp prism. You're only on 2 gates at that time. I'm also sceptikal about the early blink timings ( the greedy one, 1 gate blink that hits before 8' ). Do you have replays versus that ?
4gate warp prism punishes tech builds and other builds that rely on sentry to hold off any early aggression. It does poorly vs a 2gate opener that focuses on chrono'ing out a ton of units very early in the game. If he is in his base to defend, he will snipe/repel the prism before you get more than 1 round of warp ins. The advantage that you have 4gates and he only has 2 is not realized if you can't warp in more than 1 or 2 rounds within his base.
I recall hero vs squirtle in the semis of GSL were these exact build orders (either game 2 or 3). Squirtle pressured off 2gates while hero went up to 4gates with a proxied robo. The 2gate pressure hit too early and hero was forced to use his first warp in round defensively. You will not have sentries to prevent his early pressure from just walking up your ramp.
It is possible for a base trade like scenario to occur, but I don't think it's terribly likely. Even if it does I don't think it favours the 4gate'ing player. he will unpower your gateways before you get more than one warp in cycle, and army vs army in that scenario he should win.
On May 25 2012 19:24 fanvadmeck wrote: In the DT defense replay, you didn't scout anything else than 3 stalkers before you put down your robo, it seemed like you knew before that he was going dts. According to chat it was probably because he told you he is going dt chargelot and you should have tried to defend it with a 2 robo build. If not what gave you the information to build a robo thinking he is going dts?
We discussed a double robo follow up as a midgame strategy, so that you can start your double robo way before your opponent. Also he wanted to know the utmost safest follow up after i got my nexus up. besides that, entombed valley is a no go with blink, so most reasonable follow up would be a ultra fast colossus with an even faster double robo colossus if he expo's We didn't discuss the DT rush untill he actually did it.
a double robo follow up is only possible once you confirmed he is expoing as well. With my obs i saw no expo, thus i could only conclude a chargelot archon bust off 1 base[/QUOTE]
So you are basicly saying that the build isn't safe vs fast dts? Only if you put a robo directly after expanding as you did in that game?
On May 25 2012 19:24 fanvadmeck wrote: In the DT defense replay, you didn't scout anything else than 3 stalkers before you put down your robo, it seemed like you knew before that he was going dts. According to chat it was probably because he told you he is going dt chargelot and you should have tried to defend it with a 2 robo build. If not what gave you the information to build a robo thinking he is going dts?
We discussed a double robo follow up as a midgame strategy, so that you can start your double robo way before your opponent. Also he wanted to know the utmost safest follow up after i got my nexus up. besides that, entombed valley is a no go with blink, so most reasonable follow up would be a ultra fast colossus with an even faster double robo colossus if he expo's We didn't discuss the DT rush untill he actually did it.
a double robo follow up is only possible once you confirmed he is expoing as well. With my obs i saw no expo, thus i could only conclude a chargelot archon bust off 1 base
So you are basicly saying that the build isn't safe vs fast dts? Only if you put a robo directly after expanding as you did in that game?
yes, that's basically what i'm saying.if you cannot make a safe assumption you have to put down the robo right after expanding to not die to DT rushes
On May 26 2012 06:11 Nyast wrote: Watched the replays, and although I kind of like the opening ( til ~5'30 ) I'm less than convinced about that early expo.
First of all, I think it's a BO loss against stuff such as 4-gate warp prism. You're only on 2 gates at that time. It's not that likely to happen in ladder, especially since you're pressuring, which forces your opponent on the defensive. But against somebody who scouts and recognizes that build ( the 2 zealots and delayed core sell it ), I think the best you could do is attempt a base trade, and even that I don't think you'd win.
I'm also sceptikal about the early blink timings ( the greedy one, 1 gate blink that hits before 8' ). Do you have replays versus that ?
If opponent plays greedy he will die or at least suffer lots of eco damage. If for some reason you do no damage with your push to a 1 gate greedy tech build, you still have barely enough time to get back home and get 1 immortal out before his blink timing hits.
Warp prism 4 gate i didn't face for a long long time, so that might have some good potential so once i will face it, i will add it to the OP
Good point about the 1 gate blink, he's most likely going to suffer heavy damage when you pressure. What about a 3-stalkers rush with a relatively fast blink then ? Like getting the twilight around 4'45-5', while producing non-stop stalkers out of the 2 gates ? Most likely you won't be able to do any eco damage vs that and it still hits relatively fast, but both sides should trade more or less equally, meaning if he tries to counter/harass he most likely will have a very low amount of stalkers, and your immortal should already be out.. but I think it's worth of a test/confirmation.
Against the warp prism 4 gate, he'll definitely have to warp his first cycle in house to defend, but after that his prism is in your main and can warp 4 units while you're still on 2 gates.
On May 26 2012 06:11 Nyast wrote: Watched the replays, and although I kind of like the opening ( til ~5'30 ) I'm less than convinced about that early expo.
First of all, I think it's a BO loss against stuff such as 4-gate warp prism. You're only on 2 gates at that time. It's not that likely to happen in ladder, especially since you're pressuring, which forces your opponent on the defensive. But against somebody who scouts and recognizes that build ( the 2 zealots and delayed core sell it ), I think the best you could do is attempt a base trade, and even that I don't think you'd win.
I'm also sceptikal about the early blink timings ( the greedy one, 1 gate blink that hits before 8' ). Do you have replays versus that ?
If opponent plays greedy he will die or at least suffer lots of eco damage. If for some reason you do no damage with your push to a 1 gate greedy tech build, you still have barely enough time to get back home and get 1 immortal out before his blink timing hits.
Warp prism 4 gate i didn't face for a long long time, so that might have some good potential so once i will face it, i will add it to the OP
Good point about the 1 gate blink, he's most likely going to suffer heavy damage when you pressure. What about a 3-stalkers rush with a relatively fast blink then ? Like getting the twilight around 4'45-5', while producing non-stop stalkers out of the 2 gates ? Most likely you won't be able to do any eco damage vs that and it still hits relatively fast, but both sides should trade more or less equally, meaning if he tries to counter/harass he most likely will have a very low amount of stalkers, and your immortal should already be out.. but I think it's worth of a test/confirmation.
Against the warp prism 4 gate, he'll definitely have to warp his first cycle in house to defend, but after that his prism is in your main and can warp 4 units while you're still on 2 gates.
5 stalker "rush" the the hardest "counter" to this build, but it delays the blink by a fair amount since he will spend 100 extra gas on stalkers, and 2 extra chrono's on them. against another teamate of mine we just fooled around a little bit with him doing weird builds, and the 5 stalkers into blink was the most potent one in defending the harass and being even in terms of who could win the game. It basically comes down to execution of both sides who comes up ahead.
Yes warp prism 4 gate i think can be very difficult, but 1 warp in at home means i can have 5 gateways up once you warp in at my base. with a good probe pull and some decnt micro i don't know who will come ahead in that fight. But so far this is what i think is the hardest to deal with. I will have to test that and see what happens. If you are up for some test games let me know and we can post ther eplays here for analyses. on EU tech.129 and on NA Tech.264. whisper me which server you are on and i'll log in whenever i have time.
On May 26 2012 23:30 Fus wrote: I dont recommend this in league below high master skill as most people will go 1 base. I recommend defensive 2 gate expo
Not true. I'm in gold and I regularly play plats and golds when I hit up ladder. Maybe 1 out of 10 PvPs is a 1base all-in. The most common builds I run into are some kind of Robo expo (expo is just really late).
If I were to give any advice to my low level brethren, I wouldn't recommend the 5 gate blink follow up. I personally always go blink but I'm laboring under the assumption that I'm working on my mechanics. I've thrown away games where I was ahead because my decision making/unit control wasn't up to par.
Tech, here's a game of me vs 1 gate greedy blink. I thought I could do damage before he got blink, but in fact it seems it's not that easy. He got blink at 7' while I was still in his base, and lost all my units due to that. I couldn't get an immortal in time to defend the counter:
Any advice ? Did I do a major mistake somewhere ? Should I have not attacked at all, just threaten ? When do you decide you should attack or not ?
Couple of things can be smoothened out in the build order for you.
1. your second chrono should start as soon as your first one wears off
2.You do not scout on 2 player maps at all, or if you feel uncomfortable not scouting, scout after your second gateway is down. you need those extra minerals to get everything right on time
3.You forget to spend the third chrono on probes
4.as a result you can only get a pylon on 24/26 which result in you not building probes for an extended period of time and your second gateway is about 20 seconds late. This is kinda huge for the agression since you delay 2 stalkers.
5. you spend chrono on your wapgate tech when it starts, which you should be spending on your stalkers
6. you had a probe in his base, DROP A PYLON
at 6:00 mark your last two stalkers should be halfway the map and you should have your second and third stalker already with your army at his front. These macro slipups are a landslide towards worse in this build. your amcro has to be spot on.
those are the things that made you lose that game, if you had everything spot on you would have 3 stalkers and 2 zealots against his 3 stalkers, and two more stalkers joining up about 10 seconds later, and two more from warpins which meant you would have a solid control on his unit count and on his econ. your expo didn't go down till the 7 minute mark, which is 1 minute too late, which means your robo was 1 minute too late as well. at 7 minutes you should be able to start an immortal, and then you would been fine.
On May 26 2012 23:30 Fus wrote: I dont recommend this in league below high master skill as most people will go 1 base. I recommend defensive 2 gate expo
The best defense is good offense. You use your early units to pressure your opponent and force him to defend on 1base instead and probably force 1-2 sentries, which means taking an expo is safer than with defensive 2gate expand.
Couple of things can be smoothened out in the build order for you.
1. your second chrono should start as soon as your first one wears off
2.You do not scout on 2 player maps at all, or if you feel uncomfortable not scouting, scout after your second gateway is down. you need those extra minerals to get everything right on time
3.You forget to spend the third chrono on probes
4.as a result you can only get a pylon on 24/26 which result in you not building probes for an extended period of time and your second gateway is about 20 seconds late. This is kinda huge for the agression since you delay 2 stalkers.
5. you spend chrono on your wapgate tech when it starts, which you should be spending on your stalkers
6. you had a probe in his base, DROP A PYLON
at 6:00 mark your last two stalkers should be halfway the map and you should have your second and third stalker already with your army at his front. These macro slipups are a landslide towards worse in this build. your amcro has to be spot on.
those are the things that made you lose that game, if you had everything spot on you would have 3 stalkers and 2 zealots against his 3 stalkers, and two more stalkers joining up about 10 seconds later, and two more from warpins which meant you would have a solid control on his unit count and on his econ. your expo didn't go down till the 7 minute mark, which is 1 minute too late, which means your robo was 1 minute too late as well. at 7 minutes you should be able to start an immortal, and then you would been fine.
Hope that helps Nyast
Thx, I definitely do not execute the build well enough yet, but that's expected since it was only my fourth try.
I'm a bit confused about the first chrono on warp, and timings of the robo. I watched some of your replays and I'm pretty sure you did the same. Was that a mistake ? So I should spend no chronos at all on warp ? When should I get that robo ? In one of your replays you put it around 6'50.
In which replay would you say you have a good execution of the build, so that I can compare with what I do ?
Edit: if I take for example your "5 gate blink follow up http://drop.sc/185596", you spent a chrono on warp, and at 6' you have 2z 3st in the center of the map, and your additional 2 stalkers are at 80% ( this is basically identical to in my replay ). That's pretty far from what you mentionned in your point 6).
I really like the 2 zealot first and then stalker openings. It's the strongest early game unit composition when you have only 3 units, and it is really good to not let enemy to proxy pylons when he 4 gates.
I understand that the early nexus give you a huge economy advantage so that you will be safe against late pushes no matter if it's robo, blink or phoenix. So I don't doubt the safety of the build against that.
However, I think that if he does a 3 gate or 4 gate and doesn't proxy pylon near your ramp and then banks units until his unit count become higher than you, simply because you're only on 2 gates so you produce less units and then he hits just before your additional gateways are up. That timing would probably destroy you or force you to cancel the expo or destroy it too. I would like if you could give additional explanations on this issue.
Hello I'm high master protoss player and i play 2gate expo long time beacuse i see it on GSL some months ago. I dont have got replay but i will learn on my wrong's. My style it's too realy save but it must be more execution. I dont realy forum man so i cant write very well. I send replay agnist passiv protoss, massiv blink stalker player and phoenix player. Key in this style is offensive first 6 minute's. passive toss: http://drop.sc/186898 blink toss: http://drop.sc/186901 phx toss: http://drop.sc/186902 I'm streaming some time's enjoy on TL: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/bugi (every help link down video window)
On May 28 2012 05:08 Sirverik wrote: You can place down the cyber core before the third pylon without hitting any bumps.
your second zealot will get supply blocked,a nd you will not line up the stalkers after your second gateway finishes. It's not always about getting everything as fast as possible, but as efficient as possible.
@Nyast I'll gonna take a long look at both our replays, and gonna see where the timings are different. I will do that tomorrow and post back here.
@Adonminus with proper chrono's on your 2 gateways the unit difference isn't big at all, and since you will have forcefields and he will not you can cut him in half, or even FF him out at your secondary ramp. byt the time you FF'ed him out twice and you are out of energy, you should be on 5 gateways already, and if you spend all your chrono on your two gateways, you'll suddenly completely stomp over him. also you should be able to pick off his first zealot/stalker without losing anything on your side
On May 28 2012 05:08 Sirverik wrote: You can place down the cyber core before the third pylon without hitting any bumps.
your second zealot will get supply blocked,a nd you will not line up the stalkers after your second gateway finishes. It's not always about getting everything as fast as possible, but as efficient as possible.
On May 28 2012 05:08 Sirverik wrote: You can place down the cyber core before the third pylon without hitting any bumps.
your second zealot will get supply blocked,a nd you will not line up the stalkers after your second gateway finishes. It's not always about getting everything as fast as possible, but as efficient as possible.
Ignoring the fact that I kinda messed it up with my push out timing at the end, this should convince you of what i stated.
yeah I'm pretty sure cyber can go down before pylon.
I'm kind of dubious of the whole delayed cyber thing as a whole, as so much relies on warpgate timing in pvp.
I'm looking into a more standard 2 gate opening into early nexus that doesn't delay cyber at all. I'll post replays as I get them.
EDIT - Crappy VOD of build in YABOT. Same principle as Sase, but cuts 1 zealot to get much faster nexus and warpgate timing. This is very much a work in progress, feedback is appreciated. (uploading, should be live in 30 mins or so)
You can get your 2nd gas right after the nexus (not shown in video) and add a robo or other tech in short order. The build is fairly straight forward, most of the timings should be intuitive for any Protoss.
On May 28 2012 05:08 Sirverik wrote: You can place down the cyber core before the third pylon without hitting any bumps.
your second zealot will get supply blocked,a nd you will not line up the stalkers after your second gateway finishes. It's not always about getting everything as fast as possible, but as efficient as possible.
Ignoring the fact that I kinda messed it up with my push out timing at the end, this should convince you of what i stated.
Okay, like i said before you do not get your stalkers lined up. your second gateway doesn't go down till your core is almost done. this build is not about getting 1 stalker faster then another.
Another note, and these are bumps that you might not see. you do not start a stalker on your first gateway for about 10 seconds. this is a HUGE bump. why put down the core faster if you cannot afford the stalker untill 10 seconds after the cyber core is done?
@ quillian, what warpgate timing is there in PvP? only 4 gate, rest is not warpgate timing, it's tech timings i.e. 1 base colossus, blink 4 gate, 3 gate robo blink etc. they all don't rely on warpgates to be chrono'ed to be done at a certain time.
Quick response to your 2 gate expo build before i can watch the video:
the two zealots are the key in this build. zealots are way better tanks and dps units then stalkers early on. without 2 zealots you will most likely die to a 2 probe 4 gate, with 2 zealots it will be no problem to handle any type of 4 gate
On May 28 2012 05:08 Sirverik wrote: You can place down the cyber core before the third pylon without hitting any bumps.
your second zealot will get supply blocked,a nd you will not line up the stalkers after your second gateway finishes. It's not always about getting everything as fast as possible, but as efficient as possible.
Ignoring the fact that I kinda messed it up with my push out timing at the end, this should convince you of what i stated.
Okay, like i said before you do not get your stalkers lined up. your second gateway doesn't go down till your core is almost done. this build is not about getting 1 stalker faster then another.
Another note, and these are bumps that you might not see. you do not start a stalker on your first gateway for about 10 seconds. this is a HUGE bump. why put down the core faster if you cannot afford the stalker untill 10 seconds after the cyber core is done?
@ quillian, what warpgate timing is there in PvP? only 4 gate, rest is not warpgate timing, it's tech timings i.e. 1 base colossus, blink 4 gate, 3 gate robo blink etc. they all don't rely on warpgates to be chrono'ed to be done at a certain time.
Quick response to your 2 gate expo build before i can watch the video:
the two zealots are the key in this build. zealots are way better tanks and dps units then stalkers early on. without 2 zealots you will most likely die to a 2 probe 4 gate, which will be no problem to handle any type of 4 gate
When warpgate finishes makes a huge difference in early game battles... attacking his ramp right after his second round of warp ins is not nearly as good as hitting while his warpgates are still completing. It obviously matters in defense as well. And there are tons of 3 gate or immortal timing attacks in addition to 4 gate that rely on warp gate timing. Being 15-20 second behind his warp ins can mean the difference between holding and dying.
the build I'm looking at has 1 zealot 3 stalker out when he would be pushing to plant his pylon, I don't miss the 1 zealot at all.
Unless he is going for a 4 gate you will be pressuring him with 2 zealots and 3 stalkers before his warpgate is done, you hit at 5:45 with those units.
Warpgate tech without chrono finish up at 6:15, with the delayed core in this build your warpgate tech finish up at 6:30, because you spend 1 chrono on it. you cannot tell me that he can get a full warp in, in 15 seconds. and show me any 3 gate attack or immortal bust that is centered around warpgate timings. a 3 gate agressive build that is a little less all in as a 4 gate is so easy to kill off because you will have more units out then him., and the same as soon as he warps in his first round. which gives you a nexus and him no tech advantage.
And the attack is not designed to kill your opponent, it's designed to force his first warp ins at home, or even force sentries if he was too tech greedy. and because you force defensive mode from your opponent you get a expo up.
Okay, like i said before you do not get your stalkers lined up. your second gateway doesn't go down till your core is almost done. this build is not about getting 1 stalker faster then another.
Another note, and these are bumps that you might not see. you do not start a stalker on your first gateway for about 10 seconds. this is a HUGE bump. why put down the core faster if you cannot afford the stalker untill 10 seconds after the cyber core is done?
Pretty sure the stalkers lined up nicely. One good reason to put the cyber core down earlier would be because I get my warpgate done 10 seconds faster, thus giving me not one, but two units 10 seconds faster. At any rate, I am spennding as many minerals and getting many workers out as if I invert pylon and cybercore, since in both variations the stalker is built after both pylon and core, the timing at which I they start the stalker should be identical, but because cyber core finished way earlier, I still did not have that money yet. The bump is only appearent, but if you see the two variations side by side, pylon first is better. (Unless I am missing something, which wouldn't surprise me.)
At 5:45 my 4ty and 5th stalker are finishing, as is warpgate. I will have 45 second lead on your warpins- i'll get in two rounds before your first. Aggressive 3 gates are actually trickier than the outdated 4 gate style imo, as they can do 3 stalker pressure while getting up their pylon, and actually hit earlier. Check out adonmius' 11 gate stalker aggression for an example
Okay, like i said before you do not get your stalkers lined up. your second gateway doesn't go down till your core is almost done. this build is not about getting 1 stalker faster then another.
Another note, and these are bumps that you might not see. you do not start a stalker on your first gateway for about 10 seconds. this is a HUGE bump. why put down the core faster if you cannot afford the stalker untill 10 seconds after the cyber core is done?
Pretty sure the stalkers lined up nicely. One good reason to put the cyber core down earlier would be because I get my warpgate done 10 seconds faster, thus giving me not one, but two units 10 seconds faster. At any rate, I am spennding as many minerals and getting many workers out as if I invert pylon and cybercore, since in both variations the stalker is built after both pylon and core, the timing at which I they start the stalker should be identical, but because cyber core finished way earlier, I still did not have that money yet. The bump is only appearent, but if you see the two variations side by side, pylon first is better. (Unless I am missing something, which wouldn't surprise me.)
I will definatly go do some extensive testing again just to make sure i'm not making any mistakes, but i'm pretty sure there is a drawback with your arrangement of buildings. Also i'm 100% positive Sase also gets the third pylon before core.
As far as i can recall with my initial startup on figuring out the build, i had some weird bump with a core before pylon. so as soon as i can remember exactly what that bump was, i'll get back to you
On May 28 2012 08:39 quillian wrote: yeah I'm pretty sure cyber can go down before pylon.
I'm kind of dubious of the whole delayed cyber thing as a whole, as so much relies on warpgate timing in pvp.
I'm looking into a more standard 2 gate opening into early nexus that doesn't delay cyber at all. I'll post replays as I get them.
EDIT - Crappy VOD of build in YABOT. Same principle as Sase, but cuts 1 zealot to get much faster nexus and warpgate timing. This is very much a work in progress, feedback is appreciated. (uploading, should be live in 30 mins or so)
Your build does not hold an agressive 4-gate.
How do I know ? Cause I've done this build for a while in the past 6 months. However, if you replace your stalkers #4 and #5 by a sentry and a zealot, you can hold if you execute perfectly. But it's tough and you're in no better solution, as you're still on 1 gaz, no tech and no expo, and forced to warp more sentries to defend..
The problem is this: the 4-gating player will drop a pylon near your natural around 4'45, and then another pylon or two at your ramp around 5'. At this time, you only have a single zealot and stalker, so you won't have the dps to kill those pylons. Then around 5'15, your two additional stalkers will come out. You'll eventually kill one of the pylons, but he'll warp at the other at 5'45. A micro battle will take place, but assuming it's even on both sides, he'll reinforce with 4 gates and you're only on 2 gates. You can't warp sentries cause you don't have the gas to. You'll just lose.
On May 28 2012 08:39 quillian wrote: yeah I'm pretty sure cyber can go down before pylon.
I'm kind of dubious of the whole delayed cyber thing as a whole, as so much relies on warpgate timing in pvp.
I'm looking into a more standard 2 gate opening into early nexus that doesn't delay cyber at all. I'll post replays as I get them.
EDIT - Crappy VOD of build in YABOT. Same principle as Sase, but cuts 1 zealot to get much faster nexus and warpgate timing. This is very much a work in progress, feedback is appreciated. (uploading, should be live in 30 mins or so)
Your build does not hold an agressive 4-gate.
How do I know ? Cause I've done this build for a while in the past 6 months. However, if you replace your stalkers #4 and #5 by a sentry and a zealot, you can hold if you execute perfectly. But it's tough and you're in no better solution, as you're still on 1 gaz, no tech and no expo, and forced to warp more sentries to defend..
The problem is this: the 4-gating player will drop a pylon near your natural around 4'45, and then another pylon or two at your ramp around 5'. At this time, you only have a single zealot and stalker, so you won't have the dps to kill those pylons. Then around 5'15, your two additional stalkers will come out. You'll eventually kill one of the pylons, but he'll warp at the other at 5'45. A micro battle will take place, but assuming it's even on both sides, he'll reinforce with 4 gates and you're only on 2 gates. You can't warp sentries cause you don't have the gas to. You'll just lose.
Really? You tried this and died to 4 gate?
If he is 4 gating you just don't expand and add 2 gates instead. They will be done for you second round of warpins, and since you have more units in the early game you will stomp him. Old school 4 gates are really bad, I'd be more afraid of 8 or 10 gate all in.
You have 1 zealot 5 stalkers when he is attacking with his first warp in, and your warp ga tes finish soon after. You should outnumber him for the whole fight. I'd much prefer this to the super delayed warpgate.
Regarding this threads build, I looked at the numbers in the replays and all the stalkers finish 20 seconds later, warpgate is often a full minute later, and the nexus is delayed by 40 seconds. Your army is consistently smaller and economy is slower at the same time... I'm honestly amazed how far behind it seems in every way. Was this actually used in tourney play?
On May 29 2012 04:30 quillian wrote: Really? You tried this and died to 4 gate?
If he is 4 gating you just don't expand and add 2 gates instead. They will be done for you second round of warpins, and since you have more units in the early game you will stomp him. Old school 4 gates are really bad, I'd be more afraid of 8 or 10 gate all in.
You have 1 zealot 5 stalkers when he is attacking with his first warp in, and your warp ga tes finish soon after. You should outnumber him for the whole fight. I'd much prefer this to the super delayed warpgate.
Of course I don't expo when I scout a 4 gate. It doesn't matter, if you do that build, you'll just die. Also your 2 additional gates are too late to be in sync with warp finishing, meaning you'll still be on 2 gates at the critical time. You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ?
It's a matter of timings, really. You can claim that 1z and 5 stalkers can hold it, but in my experience it's just not true. You don't have enough dps to prevent the pylons from going up. He'll warp 4 units before you.. in fact probably before your stalkers 4 and 5 are out. Or around the same time, anyways. Then your warp will complete, you'll warp 2 more units while he'll warp 4 more. At this point you're just screwed.
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ? ...
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
As a matter of fact, I am!
1 zealot, 5 stalkers, and 4 gates at 6:00, with enough money to fund all 4! Magic!
As I was saying, the oldschool 1z 1 st 4 gate is just a bad build since the wg timing nerf. You can build more than 2 units before wg finishes and still get 4 gates up in time. I am FAR more worried by a 10 gate -> 4 gate that hits at like 5:20, or aggressive 3 gate or immortal timings than a paltry 6 units at my ramp at 5:45.
I will find and post some replays actually executing against an opponent and upload them later if I get a chance.
Just a quick update - been playing my variation all night and am loving it. You get a huge economic lead. No good 4 gate reps yet, I managed to kill his probe before he planted pylons both times, so it's not useful data.
As far as transitions I think getting an immediate robo followed by two more gates asap is ideal. You can get fast obs and immortals to defend just about any push. Most of the time if he went robo he will scout the nexus with his first obs and push immediately, thinking you recently expanded and he can punish it. However, the nexus is so early that you are starting to get saturated and have all 4 gates up plus a couple immortals by the time he hits. With more income and production plus defenders advantage, it's not hard to hold.
5 stalker opening into fast Blink might be a bit trickier, but I've yet to face it. I'll be sure to post when I do!
You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ? ...
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
1 zealot, 5 stalkers, and 4 gates at 6:00, with enough money to fund all 4! Magic!
Thx. That's actually pretty nice, I stand corrected, it'll definitely handle 4 gate very well. However you do not scout at all, which I don't like. Can you still do the same build with a probe scouting at 13 ? I think that's the reason I've never been able to reach this kind of timings. Also I was taking a second gas around 5', which you don't.
Compared to the OP's build, note that you have to cut probes after 22, so it's not as economical, but safer. You can't expo as fast either, and since you're staying on a single gas, you're kindda forced into a fast expo. The good news is that you've already got your 4 gates, so after your expo you can dump all your income into more units, which should make your expo pretty damn safe.
You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ? ...
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
1 zealot, 5 stalkers, and 4 gates at 6:00, with enough money to fund all 4! Magic!
Thx. That's actually pretty nice, I stand corrected, it'll definitely handle 4 gate very well. However you do not scout at all, which I don't like. Can you still do the same build with a probe scouting at 13 ? I think that's the reason I've never been able to reach this kind of timings. Also I was taking a second gas around 5', which you don't.
Compared to the OP's build, note that you have to cut probes after 22, so it's not as economical, but safer. You can't expo as fast either, and since you're staying on a single gas, you're kindda forced into a fast expo. The good news is that you've already got your 4 gates, so after your expo you can dump all your income into more units, which should make your expo pretty damn safe.
What are you worried about by not scouting and does scouting actually remedy this concern?
On May 29 2012 20:56 tuestresfat wrote: What are you worried about by not scouting and does scouting actually remedy this concern?
Cheeses. In particular proxy double gates. You can scout around your base but sometimes players hide the proxy around the third, or in the center of the map.. and without the info you can't react in time.
This build will NOT get countered by a 4-gate, even if you don't follow this up with gates. If you let the 4-gater set up multiple pylons close or at your base when using this build, you deserve to lose. Up untill warpgate completes(5.34-5.50 depending on how korean you are) this build will have 100% mapcontroll over a standard 1z1s 4gate. the fourgater will be forced to warp in at his own base unless he wants to basetrade in a very unfavorable position.
On May 29 2012 20:56 tuestresfat wrote: What are you worried about by not scouting and does scouting actually remedy this concern?
Cheeses. In particular proxy double gates. You can scout around your base but sometimes players hide the proxy around the third, or in the center of the map.. and without the info you can't react in time.
ah, kk makes sense just scout whenever you feel comfortable then, you'll have a few bumps if you try to follow this opening but it shouldn't be game changing.
If you aren't in masters or higher feel free to ignore everything below this:
You'd have to scout his base pretty early to see a proxy and be able to react in time, gateway scout at the latest especially since maps nowadays are only going to get larger and larger.
Ultimately it's your preference if you think it's worth it, but you'll note most pros are opting to scout very late or forego scouting altogether. Remember back when pylon scout was standard in all match-ups? Remember when terrans always scouted after depot? Remember when Zergs would drone scout in a ZvZ? That was when people didn't understand the game and didn't know how to scout properly.
Yes, by scouting earlier you will have an easier time vs proxies, but you are worst off vs everything else. If you know the PvT match-up at all, you'll know 1gate fe with gateway scout is the most common. If you gateway scout there is always the risk of terran fully walling and you can't get into his base. There is also the risk you see nothing and you're up against a proxy. Scouting on pylon will help remedy both of these, but alas it is not worth it. Why? Because it is possible to hold a proxy with a 1gate fe so you will do it regardless of what you see, and because you don't actually care what he's doing behind his wall. The idea behind this build is the same. The most economical build that is safe vs everything, that is the ideal 'standard' opener and as long as it is possible to hold something like a proxy, it is worth it. That's actually the reason nexus first isn't used more often than 1gate fe in PvT, it's because a nexus first is basically an insta loss vs a proxy bunker rush, while a 1gate fe can hold everything terran can try and throw at you. Sure, it isn't exactly better vs proxies than a 3gate opener, but it's more economical, and so it is the standard opener for that match-up. If it ever becomes remotely possible to hold a proxy with a nexus first, it will become the standard opening.
Same in PvP, who cares if he has 1gas you can hold a 4gate easily. Who cares if he has double gas early, your build doesn't skip any corners that leaves you vulnerable to anything. It is possible to hold a proxy 2 gate off 1gate->core.
If you need more examples, think back to when hatch first wasn't the standard in ZvT. Now? It's used literally every single game. Why? Because it is the most economical, and because it is safe vs everything. Yes it is harder to hold a proxy 11/11 bunker rush, you'd have a much easier time dealing with that if you opening pool first, but it is possible with a hatch first, so you should practice it.
The most economical opening that keeps you safe from everything. That should be the build you practice with, that should be the opening you refine. The more economical your openings the more options are available to you in the later stages of the game. If you open 3gate every game your options are far less than a player who opens nexus first every game and survives.
// this is highly exaggerated, after all we're only talking about a fucking probe scout.
Well I'm mid-masters, and I personally know for sure I can't hold a proxy 2 gates if I don't scout it in time. In fact, even if I scout it in time, I have trouble against it. Yeah the build is safe vs everything else, but am I ready to insta quit as soon as I see a proxy ?
It's like that famous cannon rush on Antiga.. you know, the one where he walls behind pylons under the ramp and makes a cannon there. If you patrol a probe here, you're safe, but if you don't you're in trouble. If you play greedy, you'll just lose to this kind of cheese
Maybe there are counters to those cheeses without scouting, but if so, I don't know them
On May 29 2012 21:40 Nyast wrote: Well I'm mid-masters, and I personally know for sure I can't hold a proxy 2 gates if I don't scout it in time. In fact, even if I scout it in time, I have trouble against it. Yeah the build is safe vs everything else, but am I ready to insta quit as soon as I see a proxy ?
It's like that famous cannon rush on Antiga.. you know, the one where he walls behind pylons under the ramp and makes a cannon there. If you patrol a probe here, you're safe, but if you don't you're in trouble. If you play greedy, you'll just lose to this kind of cheese
Maybe there are counters to those cheeses without scouting, but if so, I don't know them
I heard a caster/pro say that chronoing a stalker and base trading with all your probes against a proxy 2 gate is the last resort counter to it. Naniwa vs Huk from the last MLG was an example of how its supposed to work in theory, though its nerve wracking and Naniwa slipped up at the end and lost.
PS: That can be done without scouting, and with the rising number of 2 player maps in the pool. proxy gates are a greater threat than they were before, especially if people proxy them in the non obvious locations (for ex near the third at Ohana and Daybreak)
You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ? ...
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
1 zealot, 5 stalkers, and 4 gates at 6:00, with enough money to fund all 4! Magic!
Thx. That's actually pretty nice, I stand corrected, it'll definitely handle 4 gate very well. However you do not scout at all, which I don't like. Can you still do the same build with a probe scouting at 13 ? I think that's the reason I've never been able to reach this kind of timings. Also I was taking a second gas around 5', which you don't.
Compared to the OP's build, note that you have to cut probes after 22, so it's not as economical, but safer. You can't expo as fast either, and since you're staying on a single gas, you're kindda forced into a fast expo. The good news is that you've already got your 4 gates, so after your expo you can dump all your income into more units, which should make your expo pretty damn safe.
Thanks nyast! I'm glad you like it =). I've had a lot of fun with your pvz stuff so I'm glad I can return the favor.
Couple quick notes: 1. Probe cut and 4 gate is ONLY in the case of a 4 gate or other warpgate all in. Against any tech build I do the 5:30 expo off 2 gates, which only cuts probes for a few seconds while the nexus goes up. Against a 4 gate, the probe cut isn't a big deal - he will also have 22 probes, and you will have a bigger army with equal production. Once you crush his force you can do whatever you want and be ahead.
2. As tuestresfat said scouting early will create slight bumps in the build, but you shouldn't need to do a full scout of your opponents base. I normally do the following scouting:
13 gate- check for proxies and cannon cheese at natural. a quick run around near your base can confirm this, then you can come back to mine. If he has proxied farther away than your natural, I don't think you have to worry. You will have 2 gates up pretty quick, and with his travel time you should be able to hold.
21 gate - 2nd scout to the watchtower to check for incoming probe/proxy pylons, check his spawn position on 4 player maps.
First zealot - chase probe, check third and watch tower. First stalker + zealot - watchtower, then his natural. Try to get a unit count by dancing around at his ramp. Treat this like pvt -- you can judge a LOT from what units he has.
Mini-push 3-5 stalkers - I rarely commit to this attack like the OP, as you aren't trying to do damage, but rather keep him feeling defensive while the nexus goes up. I will just camp out at his natural for a bit and see if he pushes down with mostly zealots, stalkers, or immortals. You should be able to tell if he is saving gas or did a normal robo build from the unit comp.
Hope this helps! I have been having a blast with this so far, the extreme econ advantage and high unit count early game really throw people off. I expect we might see some new/more all ins if people start figuring it out, though, as you get almost no sentries early game and a somewhat later robo. You can get an obs in time for dt, but it can be close, and 5 stalker into blink timing is worrying.
I guess we will just have to wait and see how things evolve!
Sorry for double post, I had someone PM me about the 8/10 gate timings I have referenced twice, so I thought I'd clarify.
Basically because we have no sentries and don't scout much I'm concerned about super aggressive warpgate cheese, like the optimized korean 4 gate or 10 gate stalker. I just haven't had games against these and don't know how it would work.
Here's the builds if anyone wants to test them out: 10 gate > stalker rush + Show Spoiler +
On May 29 2012 23:51 quillian wrote: Hope this helps! I have been having a blast with this so far, the extreme econ advantage and high unit count early game really throw people off. I expect we might see some new/more all ins if people start figuring it out, though, as you get almost no sentries early game and a somewhat later robo. You can get an obs in time for dt, but it can be close, and 5 stalker into blink timing is worrying.
If you see somebody tech, I wonder what is better: the 5'30 expo, or the 4-gate and push with 3z 7st and only drop a nexus reactively when you force a ton of sentry ?
A 4-gate push like that can be devastating versus a ton of builds. First of all, I doubt greedy twilight builds (blink/dts) can hold... in the worst case he'd have to warp tons of sentries reactively. Since it's one of the standard builds, that's already a ton of "freewins" you may get from that. You're also in great shape against stargate play. You can probably hold and counter all 4-gate variants, including the 4 gate prism which is always annoying ( since you'll hit him earlier ). You'll get an insta win versus any forms of expo before yours.
What does that leave ? Well, I can think of robo play and 2-gas 4-gates slow tech variants ( like 3 gate robo blink ). Your tech will be delayed by a lot, especially as you don't have a second gas for so long, so maybe one-base colossi or some blink timings may be more tricky than if you expoed at 5:30. I don't know for sure, but I'll definitely try on ladder.
On May 29 2012 23:51 quillian wrote: Hope this helps! I have been having a blast with this so far, the extreme econ advantage and high unit count early game really throw people off. I expect we might see some new/more all ins if people start figuring it out, though, as you get almost no sentries early game and a somewhat later robo. You can get an obs in time for dt, but it can be close, and 5 stalker into blink timing is worrying.
If you see somebody tech, I wonder what is better: the 5'30 expo, or the 4-gate and push with 3z 7st and only drop a nexus reactively when you force a ton of sentry ?
A 4-gate push like that can be devastating versus a ton of builds. First of all, I doubt greedy twilight builds (blink/dts) can hold... in the worst case he'd have to warp tons of sentries reactively. Since it's one of the standard builds, that's already a ton of "freewins" you may get from that. You're also in great shape against stargate play. You can probably hold and counter all 4-gate variants, including the 4 gate prism which is always annoying ( since you'll hit him earlier ). You'll get an insta win versus any forms of expo before yours.
What does that leave ? Well, I can think of robo play and 2-gas 4-gates slow tech variants ( like 3 gate robo blink ). Your tech will be delayed by a lot, especially as you don't have a second gas for so long, so maybe one-base colossi or some blink timings may be more tricky than if you expoed at 5:30. I don't know for sure, but I'll definitely try on ladder.
Yeah you can definitely try and be aggressive with it, the thing is unlike a normal 4 gate the bulk of your army is spawning out of normal gateways at home and have to walk across the map. Your attack will hit much later, and he can easily have an immortal + 2 sentry out. Your units will get split in half on the ramp and chewed up...
I really like the FE variation because it is SO early and unexpected while being safe. Most players have no idea what to do. If they try to drop a 2nd themselves they are ridiculously behind economically. If they push you will have a large standing army and 1 robo 4 gates to reinforce... it's really a mess for them.
On May 30 2012 00:11 quillian wrote: Sorry for double post, I had someone PM me about the 8/10 gate timings I have referenced twice, so I thought I'd clarify.
Basically because we have no sentries and don't scout much I'm concerned about super aggressive warpgate cheese, like the optimized korean 4 gate or 10 gate stalker. I just haven't had games against these and don't know how it would work.
Earliest possible warpgate. Proxy pylons going down in your base before your stalker finishes. nightmare situation =D
This kind of cheese can pose a real problem since we have no sentries, and I don't know how the stalker timings line up.
One final question - I feel bad taking over the thread with a similar but slightly different build discussion. Should we move this to a new thread?
I've actually tested those scenarios with a friend, and it can hold, but it's tricky. That's in the context of the OP ( not your build, but I think it'd also be valid with yours ).
Things that I've learned:
- worst reaction possible is to pull all probes to try to deny those pylons. That won't happen, period, when doing this kind of cheese the attacker will drop 3-4 pylons in your main, and will cancel whatever pylon you're focusing on with your probes at the last second. It's just lost mining time.
- at the second it's scouted, all your chronos should go into the gates. You need to get 3 stalkers as fast as possible.
- you must do damage to the warping zealots, so your stalkers must be in range to wherever he's going to warp. 5s of bonus damage is a zealot half damaged, by the time they come into contact with your stalkers and you need to kite, you can have one zealot killed for free.
- don't forget to drop 2 additional gates in the middle of the panic :p
Note: that was tested against the 10-gate version with 5 chronos on warp.
On May 30 2012 00:28 quillian wrote: Yeah you can definitely try and be aggressive with it, the thing is unlike a normal 4 gate the bulk of your army is spawning out of normal gateways at home and have to walk across the map. Your attack will hit much later, and he can easily have an immortal + 2 sentry out. Your units will get split in half on the ramp and chewed up...
You can make an early pylon somewhere near his natural or third. You'll be warping around 6'10, so you can walk up his ramp with a single zealot to "test grounds" around 6'00 while dropping a pylon in his natural. At this point, if you see an immortal or many sentries, you can expo and you'll only have lost a zealot. If there are no sentries, you can attack with close reinforcements. At least that's what I'd try to do. I guess if I spot sentries my expo will go down around 6'45, and the robo around 7'00.
It seems to me like you're not giving people enough credit. I think anyone who bothers to check the strategy section on TL can execute a simple expand while they are attacking... It's not that multitask intensive.
Back to the build. I like it, seems pretty good, but I hate chronoing anything but my nexus in the beginning. Nice analysis.
On May 30 2012 00:55 GreEny K wrote: It seems to me like you're not giving people enough credit. I think anyone who bothers to check the strategy section on TL can execute a simple expand while they are attacking... It's not that multitask intensive.
Back to the build. I like it, seems pretty good, but I hate chronoing anything but my nexus in the beginning. Nice analysis.
then try it and post back with replays and results. getting an expansion, infrastructure and microing your zealots/stalkers at the same time shoots my apm up to over 350 easily, no sweat, and yet still i'm making mistakes in there. so yes you need a good high level of execution and multitasking.
I got a good idea Quillan ( and not trying to be offensive! ) go post your own guide Lets keep this guide for the Sase style one, and you make your guide with your style one, both have very valid and good points on why to do what you do, and both get up a reasonable safe expo. So this might be a new metagame coming up in PvP to force macro games, and that would be huge if we get several variations on it, and we can start stress testing both builds 100% against certain openings.
On May 30 2012 00:55 GreEny K wrote: It seems to me like you're not giving people enough credit. I think anyone who bothers to check the strategy section on TL can execute a simple expand while they are attacking... It's not that multitask intensive.
Back to the build. I like it, seems pretty good, but I hate chronoing anything but my nexus in the beginning. Nice analysis.
then try it and post back with replays and results. getting an expansion, infrastructure and microing your zealots/stalkers at the same time shoots my apm up to over 350 easily, no sweat, and yet still i'm making mistakes in there. so yes you need a good high level of execution and multitasking.
I got a good idea Quillan ( and not trying to be offensive! ) go post your own guide Lets keep this guide for the Sase style one, and you make your guide with your style one, both have very valid and good points on why to do what you do, and both get up a reasonable safe third. So this might be a new metagame coming up in PvP to force macro games, and that would be huge if we get several variations on it, and we can start stress testing both builds 100% against certain openings.
I agree tech, I was just working on it =) Sorry this ended up cluttering your thread a bit. I love the idea of a new macro oriented PvP metagame, let's work to make it a reality!
How do you hold a 3 gate two gas with this build. You can't scout it until it hits and you scout 2 gas, so you would thing tech build. If he puts a pylon out of range, and then warps in units you will have a unit disadvantage and then lose
On June 05 2012 07:16 Abusion wrote: how do you deal against a phoenix 4 gate? you just get absolutely raped
I just beat a phoenix player in which you pressure with your 2 stalkers and zealots He shouldn't have enough to hold and your units will reinforce faster due to his delayed gates with the stargate.
On June 05 2012 07:16 Abusion wrote: how do you deal against a phoenix 4 gate? you just get absolutely raped
I just beat a phoenix player in which you pressure with your 2 stalkers and zealots He shouldn't have enough to hold and your units will reinforce faster due to his delayed gates with the stargate.
You can't just pressure with your 2 zealots and stalkers because you have no idea what he's doing. Also, by the time warp gates finished he has 2-3 sentries and can warp more in if he wants to. You can't camp outside his base due to the phoenix picking off stuff once you retreat. I have no idea how to beat it...
@abusion if he warps in sentries he will delay his push by alot, so just warp in 1-2 sentries at his ramp to get your production up to 5 gates and you will outproduce him by alot ( double chrono on 5 gates instead of single chrono on 4 gates ).
@surili unfortunatly no, every player that is in korea shuts down and replay spread of his games, and so far he hasn't used this style other then on his own stream, which he doesn't save the VODS from.
If anyone finds and i'm happy to put them into the OP.
@moose you should have more units then him at his first warp in, and at his second warp in you STILL have more units then him since your last two stalkers finish up, and you warp in two more and he can only get 3 stalkers. I can watch the replay if you want me to go over that game to see what went wrong?
@snively only things you have to scout for in PvP is proxy two gates, the next early game timing is 4 gate, and your scout is fast enough to catch that on all maps. You just have to convince your brain about these facts before it starts feeling natural.
*bump* Would like to hear a blue poster's opinion on the viability of this strat.
Also, watched the replay on Antiga vs. blink...your opponent claimed that he "played like shit" and that the nexus should be impossible to hold. In the game on Shakuras your opponent also screwed up and allowed you to do more damage than you should have. How would this build work if your opponents hadn't made mistakes?
Also, do you have VODs of Sase doing the build himself?
I'm a Platinium player and I love this build. But I always lost against 4g builds. I can't hold. Do you have tips or a replay against a 4g ? Because in the replay list, there isn't any one. I can post you some of my replays if you want to analyze.
Against a 4 gate it's mostly about scouting and denying the probe/stalker/zealot that comes out to plant the proxy pylons. Once you kill that you should have put down your nexus and extra gateways and be able to hold at your natural's ramp because of the delay of the opponents units having to walk across the entire map.
On August 15 2012 04:30 Eriatolc wrote: Hi everyone.
I'm a Platinium player and I love this build. But I always lost against 4g builds. I can't hold. Do you have tips or a replay against a 4g ? Because in the replay list, there isn't any one. I can post you some of my replays if you want to analyze.
2Gate builds origin from the 3 Stalker Rush, which itself is designed to fend off 4Gates.
My guess is that you are not active, you want to scout your base + natural with your Zealot, then you place him at the ramp to your natural, patrol if it is a big ramp. With 1 Zealot and 1 Stalkers you continue to scout around your base for proxy pylons, one stalker remains at the ramp to your natural. with 1 Zealot and 4 Stalkers you can now safely go and pressure your opponent, he will send out a zealot 1 or 2 stalkers and a probe, ez pz win for you, now you delay the 4Gate pretty damn long and are fine.
It might be a problem with your early build though, just check your timings and compare them to OPs (i.e. Minute X 3rd Stalker finishes) if your Stalker finishes later than his, practice against AI.
Hi, since I havent played in months and I need to get back on track, I searched for buildorders and found this gem. But since I only rely on supplycounts and I'm bad at using timestamps ingame I tried to shove this thing into a bo-planner: Sase's PvP aggressive 2 Gate Expo. I hope it kinda helps!
Thank you for the build! Seems very fun, I'll try that ASAP.
But i have two questions:
-When you put pressure with your 5 stalkers 2 zealots, if you can"t see phoenixes/immortals/etc. what makes you think your opponent has gone Blink, phoenix, DT or robo play? I have troubles reading my opponent's game plan and that often makes me lose!
- When do you decide to contain your opponent in his base by warping two sentries? Actually I watched only 3 of your replays, but in non of them you chosed to do it (while I think I would have tried to): against which strategies it would be a good/bad idea to contain, and when should I go back home when I do contain him?
I've been watching his stream today and he does a similar build to this but has modified it a bit. He doesn't build the two opening zealots. Instead the build is:
13 gate 15 gas (2 on gas) 16 pylon 18 core 18 gas (2 on gas) 20 gate
then he makes 3/4 stalkers and proceeds from there
On August 25 2012 01:04 Renfield wrote: I've been watching his stream today and he does a similar build to this but has modified it a bit. He doesn't build the two opening zealots. Instead the build is:
13 gate 15 gas (2 on gas) 16 pylon 18 core 18 gas (2 on gas) 20 gate
then he makes 3/4 stalkers and proceeds from there
With the exception of the gas timings, it sounds like any other 3 stalker rush with maybe another stalker or two. Anyone high level player that has an opinion of which is more viable? The initial two zealots or faster stalkers?
On August 25 2012 01:04 Renfield wrote: I've been watching his stream today and he does a similar build to this but has modified it a bit. He doesn't build the two opening zealots. Instead the build is:
13 gate 15 gas (2 on gas) 16 pylon 18 core 18 gas (2 on gas) 20 gate
then he makes 3/4 stalkers and proceeds from there
With the exception of the gas timings, it sounds like any other 3 stalker rush with maybe another stalker or two. Anyone high level player that has an opinion of which is more viable? The initial two zealots or faster stalkers?
Ye it's a 3 stalker rush into expo. Not the same build at all.
Thanks for uploading this man I saw him doing it a couple of times but I could not find the build order, I know this is a somewhat late post so do you think this is still viable?
This looks awesome, but like the poster above I'd love to know how you respond to 1 base Colossus all-ins? That seems to be the only thing not covered in the guide.
you would want to base trade against 1base colossus imo...since you have blink you alot more mobile than the other army
once you know they are all-inning that's when you stop probe production and use your chrono on warpgates for cooldown and constantly make a bunch of units and try to win by outmassing but imo, it's alot easier to just base trade against 1 base colo all-in
it also depends on how fast the push comes of course. If he waits for the second colossi you might have a chance. First I have to say I dont like the blink stalker style somehow. I always go for 2-3 immortal + charge lots
If I my obs doesnt scout any exp reaktion => stop probes get 6 gates get archons as soon as possible.
now you have to engage him on a open field (if you are super lucky) or at least flank with a warp in of zelots and aim the colossi with stalker/Immortal so they have to move back.
This might only work if he waits for a second Colossi or even for range. But if he pushes out with the first colossi... I cant see any chance to win.
I am about to practice this build as well as finding some good transition out of this.
Anybody has some experience how to stop 1 base colossi all ins? I am high master and its working out quite well with this opening.
You want 2-3 immos with blink stalkers agains 1 base all ins. He will be seriously zealot heavy your only purpose is to blink to a point where you would not get much dps when you are sniping collosus while microing your immos. It's not super easy but stalkers are really mobile so it's actually possible.
I personnally love this build, the only thing i dont like is going for some blink build against a 1 base colossus player, i hate base trade scenario and i try to avoid them at all cost, anyone have any suggestion on something else you can do(different transition then 5 gate blink) that would do well against a 1 base colossus player.
You can go robo and constant chrono out immortals BUT it all depends if you can scout what they are doing and how much you can do with your initial pressure
This is a relatively old post, is this still effective with all the new changes and switch to 3 stalker rush meta. I just tried it on ladder, but i wanted to know if anyone has had any effectiveness with it against low gm high masters protoss players.