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Bomber's 1-rax FE with 1 gas
At the recently concluded Red Bull Battlegrounds, Startale Bomber displayed some magnificently structured and aggressive TvP play, which has a bunch of Terrans salivating at the mouth, and consequently some Protoss players quaking in their boots. + Show Spoiler +Even though he had an eventual 4-2 loss to MC in the Grand Finals Bomber's TvP style is a flexible, subtle adjustment to the more often seen immediate 2-gas geysers after the additional Barracks in an FE build.
I have a framework guide here for you, as well as an invitation to search out and submit more replays of this sort of thing in action, so we can more accurately compare its benefits and shortcomings.
Note: the timings below should be taken as a small range of ideal windows to hit. If harassment, frontal attacks, or other disruptions occur, please disregard the listed timestamps and focus on getting the buildings out in the correct order when affordable.
Edit as of June 8, 2012:
Upon watching more games and hearing others talk about the style, I've made some adjustments to the build.
Edit as of June 9, 2012:
Note about timestamps and delays.
Edit as of September 24, 2012:
Note about timing of scouting and impact on economy.
Changelog
+ Show Spoiler +June 8, 2012 - Refined the timings of Barracks 4 and 5. - Refined timing of Refinery 2. - Optional timing of 2 Refineries simultaneously - Described the timing of the 3rd CC a bit more accurately. - Added a 'References' section - Added the Day9 Daily on this style, a discussion on fast thirds, and a Protoss help topic to the References section.
June 9, 2012 - Added a cautionary note about the timestamps.
June 25, 2012 - Under 'Some Conditions', added notes about a DT build
September 24, 2012 - small but important detail added to build order about scouting timing and your economy; specifically, scouting on 15 after the Barracks finishes can actually delay everything by 15 seconds; alternatives are suggested now
The Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +10 Depot (~0:55-1:00) 12 Rax (~1:40) * if you are very afraid of all-ins like a 4-gate, scout when this is done * HOWEVER, scouting now delays the fastest, smoothest possible execution; if you DO NOT scout, you can drop Barracks 2 on ~4:00 right after the Bunker, and Barracks 3 on ~4:15, followed by gas on ~4:30; if you DO scout, these timings are delayed 10-15 seconds * the third option is to scout NOW, BUT go for an OC on 17 (counting the Marine you build as soon as the Barracks is done); rally your 16th worker to the natural and build the natural CC then: in THIS instance, the proper timings are only delayed 1-5 seconds * so: 15 OC, Marine, and scout is safe but delayed everything else; 17 OC + scout is safe and relatively on time; 15 OC, Marine, and NO scout is the greediest, fastest possible execution with minimal scouting initially * constant Marines * optional depot wall-in 16/17 CC (see the note above about scouting and the economy timing) * get a very quick Depot so you don’t lose production (if 1-depot expand) * conditional Bunker @~3:50-4:00... if you CC the low-ground, Bunker before Rax 21-24 Barracks, Barracks (delay by 1-2 food if you went for low-ground Bunker) 25-26 Refinery (note: the 2 Barracks and Refinery [in that order] come up at ~4:00-4:30 assuming optimal execution with minimal scouting; with ultra-safe early scouting it is delayed to ~4:15-4:45) * at any time after this, you may scout Protoss 3 to 6 or 8 Gate pressure incoming. If that is the case, you must drop additional Bunkers (at least 1, 2 in the case of the 8 gate attack). Dropping an additional Bunker to make a total of 2 is an extremely safe play if you decide to do it blindly and does not hamper the build. * Tech Lab on 3rd Barracks * checking for proxy pylons @6:00-6:30 Refinery (as TL completes/Stim starts, ~6:00-6:20) * still constant Marines Factory + Engineering Bay @100 gas (~7:00-7:15) Refinery @ E-bay complete (~7:30-7:40) * OPTIONAL: drop your 3rd and 4th gas simultaneously as Starport nearing completion if you're wanting to have security Bunkers at this stage * +1 Weapons Starport + Reactor (Factory) @Factory completion (~8:15-8:30) Barracks add-ons (Tech Lab, Reactor; ~8:20-8:30) * begin Marauder production Barracks, Barracks (~8:30) * get 1 more Tech Lab, 1 Reactor as Barracks 4 and 5 finish Refinery (as Starport swaps; ~9:15-9:20) * crank out double Medivacs * push with bio + Medivacs @ about 10:15 3rd CC (~9:30-11:30) * this has some leeway * as another consideration, you may choose to drop the 3rd CC in place of Barracks 4 and 5 -> in that case, Barracks 4 and 5 will take place at about 9:30 or so -> CC before additional Barracks is highly long-term focused, and permits more upgrades, but less continuous aggression in the IMMEDIATE future (you will have the same rinse/repeat hammering ability as soon as the additional Barracks with add-ons come online, it's just about a minute later)
Continuations
+ Show Spoiler +From this point (~10:00-10:30), you have several options. Option 1 + Show Spoiler +Drop your 3rd CC as you're getting ready to be moving out (probably between 9:30-11:30). This is a longer-focused play, and one that (if scouted) telegraphs that you're not committed to winning with your 5-rax aggro RIGHT NOW. One thing that you should look out for here is that because 2 Reactors are now up, plus 3 Tech Labs, AND a Reactored Starport, your minerals may be tight, and there may be a gap in the Marine production in order to go this route.
However, this is still VERY safe, and because of your heavy Barracks aggression, there's not a lot the Protoss can do to prevent it if you're attacking him properly. Because of this, you should probably build this as a low-ground CC, unless it's a map that's very vulnerable to warp-in counters. Option 2 + Show Spoiler +As you move out, get an Armory and a 2nd E-bay. While again being a long-term focus that says "I might not win RIGHT NOW", this is a very aggressive move, attempting to get and keep an upgrade advantage over Protoss so that no matter what their reaction to your heavy aggression, they are obligated to be in a defensive position even longer as their tech tries to catch up. This is a very quick option, and naturally transitions almost immediately to option 1 or 3 without a hitch in the flow, being mostly an 'ordering' choice. Option 3 + Show Spoiler +Get your next stage of unit tech as you are beginning the pressure. You can delay for a short while as you scan/Factory scout/engage the initial Protoss force to see what the choice is. All you're doing is deciding whether to start Starport 2 or the Ghost Academy first, according to what you see.
If it's an all-Gateway force OR you see High Templar, you want the Ghost Academy. It's VERY hard for him to have Storm right now (and frankly, if he does, he's probably too low on units to survive a 5-rax continued assault; batter him into submission), so you'll manage to have the Ghosts in time to keep the pressure on and not die to the counter-swing.
If you see either of only a couple Immortals OR 1+ Colossi, it's time to get the second Starport. Because you don't have Vikings yet, he has to be building those Colossi to not die; it's such a huge investment that he can't afford to immediately tech switch. If you can take out a third base or even just get rid of all the Sentries and Colossi with your attack without losing the Medivacs, you should be fine. Back home, your 5 Barracks should have been pumping, and if he's low on Sentry/Colossi, he's obligated to keep making at least another couple Colossi to survive for the next couple of minutes. If you keep making Vikings, pre-emptively start that Ghost Academy so that when he inevitably tech switches to nullify the Vikings, you can be ready for it.
Some Conditions
+ Show Spoiler +As stated above, you have the option to drop 1 or 2 extra Bunkers earlier in the build (before you get the Factory and Engineering Bay) if you scout a heavy pressure play incoming. Because you delayed your second gas, this doesn't actually hurt you much in the long run. When the 10:00-10:15 push-out timing comes, you can have 2 Medivacs with another 2 on the way, 26-30 Marines, and 2-5 Marauders, depending on minor tweaks and production choices. The production capability right now should be 2 Medivacs, 2 Marauders, and 2 Marines at time, with the ability to ramp up to 2 Medivacs, 3 Marauders, and 4 Marines at a time as soon as add-ons 4 and 5 come online. If Protoss has been putting on pressure, you can delay for 4 Medivacs or +1 and Combat Shields to increase your chances against a lot of Gateway units without worrying too much about getting overrun: you'll just have so many Marines and Marauders that it's very hard to outright die to an attack right now. If the Protoss is turtling and doing a very fast 3-Nexus play a la Parting, there's no need to panic. You MUST remain aggressive while his Gateway unit count is still a little lower and his higher tech hasn't kicked in yet. Drill the Protoss as hard as possible, and once your reinforcement waves start kicking in, you may be able to do something like drop two expansions at once WHILE hitting the front, which is very hard for your typical Gateway-based army to handle. Occasionally in this matchup, the Protoss will go for a 1-gate FE and then gun for DTs, trying to pin you back while getting a scary mid and lategame army to foil any Medivac pressure. If you scout double gas early and you don't see a swell of Sentries, it is VERY feasible to drop your Engineering bay much earlier in the build order. For example, between 5:30 and 6:30 there is a window of time that as long as you aren't overbuilding Depots and queuing up units, 125 minerals for the E-bay is perfectly fine. Then, you can drop a security Turret next to your natural OC to cover your Bunkers, and if you see any DTs, they can be repelled QUITE easily. After you deflect the harass, save some Scans and go kill him with your midgame pressure, since DTs suck when they don't do any economic damage.
Logic
+ Show Spoiler +Terran's early game is primarily mineral-focused. Players are starting to realize that as soon as Medivacs hit the field, Marines do very well, even against pure Blinkstalker, due to their high rate of fire and fantastic longevity with Medivac support. What Bomber's build is designed to do is cut just a little bit of gas in the early game so that he has the minerals to get two things out:
- conditional added Bunkers to hold off any Protoss all-in (see the game on Ohana versus Squirtle below) - a much earlier 4th and 5th Barracks at almost no penalty to himself so that he can remain aggressive for a very extended timeframe in the midgame
In addition, his Barracks add-ons are delayed to permit the proper Medivac timings, which means he's running on a mainly Marine force. Against most standard Protoss play, this doesn't leave many holes to exploit.
The benefit to having these earlier 5 Barracks is that even if the Protoss has gone for a quick 3 Nexus build, your potential for aggression will be massive; the Protoss player must place perfect Forcefields and not get caught out of position, because inside a minute, you will have the ability to drop 16 Marines into an expansion while hitting with another 20 Marines, 6-8 Marauders, and 2 Medivacs at the front: a VERY tough attack to handle.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +The first four replays are four of Bomber's Championship Bracket games from Sunday's Red Bull Battlegrounds, against different Protoss builds. http://server1.redbulllan.com/production/dynamic/starcraft/replays/CloudKingdomLE21.SC2Replay - This is against MC. After an inconclusive midgame tentative push which doesn't result in anything, the two armies bypass each other in the middle of the map, and a pseudo-base trade occurs. Unfortunately for MC, his Blinkstalker/Zealot/Archon force gets stuck ravaging Bomber's main, while Bomber rebuilds his Barracks in the corner. After destroying both the natural and third of MC, Bomber returns, traps the reduced force in his main, and crushes MC. Worthy of note: the 5 Barracks of Bomber's main helped slow down Warp Prism harass and the main army of MC so that Bomber could return to trap it. http://server1.redbulllan.com/production/dynamic/starcraft/replays/GSLEntombedValley_5.SC2Replay - Another Bomber/MC game. MC goes for a VERY fast triple Nexus, and Bomber just rolls the lower count of Gateway units by using his Factory for high ground vision and splitting his forces to give the Protoss army trouble in responding to all threats. http://server1.redbulllan.com/production/dynamic/starcraft/replays/OhanaLE_4.SC2Replay - Versus Startale Squirtle. Squirtle does a big 2-base Colossus all-in, but Bomber builds enough Bunkers to pin the Protoss army in place and then outright crushes it with a beautiful sandwich from behind with Medivacs. http://server1.redbulllan.com/production/dynamic/starcraft/replays/CloudKingdomLE_4.SC2Replay - Again versus Squirtle. Bomber gets pinned back to his natural while Squirtle manages to establish a third base. Bomber then does a beautiful fake to the natural ramp and immediately cuts back to the third when Squirtle tries to respond, and crushes the third, and the game shortly thereafter. http://drop.sc/187566 - This is a quick test game that I played against a Green Tea AI. It's a fairly crappy Protoss play, but I just wanted to show the timings as done by someone who's examined the build for a couple of hours in depth to show how easy it can be to make this small adjustment.
References
+ Show Spoiler +
Further Discussion
I welcome feedback on this! Is there a way to further tweak the build to optimize number of units? Is this actually better against certain builds or will it be deconstructed by Protoss players and make you fall behind assuming perfect play? Chip in (but constructively, please)!
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Thanks, this is a very nicely optimized variation of the standard 1rax FE>3rax tech and it allows for some cool aggressive shenanigans ^^
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I'd put 2nd refinery at about 6:00-6:15. I've gone through almost all of the TvPs and that seems to be more along the lines of the timing. Other than that our notes correspond pretty well.
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I noticed this even before redbull battlegrounds, but was not really sure what was the point of his build. Thanks for enlighting the bomber style
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On May 29 2012 03:06 gillon wrote: I'd put 2nd refinery at about 6:00-6:15. I've gone through almost all of the TvPs and that seems to be more along the lines of the timing. Other than that our notes correspond pretty well.
I'm undecided on that pesky 2nd Refinery. It seems to sync up nicely in the build with Stim, but the timing varies amongst the replays I looked at. It's possible that Bomber just drops it when he sees it's 6:00 or later, but I think you should be okay for timings as long as it's dropping either just as you're about to start Stim or as the tech lab is finishing up.
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I was hoping someone would post this! I think I saw Day9 talk about a similar build on his stream previous to this LAN. Jazzman, can you summarize the differences between this build and the more conventional double gas earlier tech lab and reactor build? I am most curious about attack timings and what units you will have. My understanding is that the attack comes about a minute sooner with slightly less stuff and maybe no combat shield and that the protoss is likely to haveless AoE units. What's the reality like?
Thanks!
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@bmoneyAK
The attack timing is very similar. In general, you start your push whenever the double Medivacs pop out, which is JUST after 10:00. In testing, I've found that you can have up to 26-28 Marines and 2-6 Marauders when you do this, depending on how good your macro is. This is VERY close to the amount of units you get from a more typical double gas after 3-rax.
The big differences are the follow-ups. In a conventional double gas after 3-rax, you often go heavy lategame after the initial push, grabbing a third and whatever tech you need to stay ahead. In this build, you're sacrificing just the tiniest bit of earlier gas in exchange for getting 5 Barracks up before you drop a third CC. As a result, you are committed to doing a MORE aggressive midgame, because your third is delayed. You have a LOT of firepower for a more extended duration in the midgame. That 32-38 unit initial attack is probably going to be a relatively constant wave size when you're producing out of 5 Barracks, and if you can keep the Medivacs alive even when your pushes are dying, you have a very scary sustained period of pressure.
In terms of upgrades, you will have Stim and +1 Weapons for certain when your initial push hits. Depending on the size of the map (read: walk distance), Combat Shields and even Concussive MAY have finished (but it would be VERY tight).
The crucial difference is not the outright effectiveness of each build, but the philosophy. I myself am a VERY committed 3-rax double gas player, and I play it well. However, when I play that build, I almost never think to myself that "I should win right now if I just keep swarming him". I always have a lategame transition planned out. With this build, even though there are many excellent late-game options here for you, you will occasionally run into builds where you say: "Man, I know I'm starting my third, but if I don't make a mistake, I can just crush this right here or the next wave". 5 Barracks (2 Reactor, 3 Tech Lab) lacks the swarm power of the CC-first 6-rax, but it is a very safe build, able to chuck out 7 Marines/cycle or 4 Marines/3 Marauders as fits the enemy composition. I think similarly to the 6-rax, your goal should be to keep him low on gas units and AoE. Remember that stimmed bio eats Gateway for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and you'll probably have an upgrade edge to keep it that way for a while.
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Was waiting for this to pop up. I'm pretty sure this'll become the standard BO on the ladder. I don't see how the current standard (double-gas, 1-tech lab, 2-reactor) is better than this in any situation outside of a slightly quicker timing push.
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i don't really like it. Delays stim and add ons for far too long and you float minerals till you can actually put down the 4/5 barracks. Its good for adding bunkers at anytime but either way that should never be a problem.
Its just a different version of the 3 rax 2 gas. Its good like the rest, but i don't like it.
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On May 29 2012 05:23 HeroMystic wrote: I'm pretty sure this'll become the standard BO on the ladder. I don't see how the current standard (double-gas, 1-tech lab, 2-reactor) is better than this in any situation outside of a slightly quicker timing push.
Yeah, if you're just looking for a build that will crush any Protoss who makes a mistake with the midgame pressure, this is it. However, if the Protoss holds or does enough damage to you earlier (look at Game 6 of the Bomber-MC series where DTs wreck him), the fact that you delay the third puts you in a tough position. I think that the 3-rax double gas is a safer long-term play, but this has potential to brutalize someone who's not careful enough.
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Thanks for posting the build. I'll have to try this variation out soon, I like being able to delay the add-ons as it helps with holding some all-ins by having the constant marine production.
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Thank you so much, I was so amused by this build and wanted to steal it. :D:D u rock!!!
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thanks for this topic, didn't wish to dissect step by step bomber's build even if I founded it really interesting.
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Actually, upon further tests against the computer, your third isn't even as delayed as I thought if you REALLY want to go for it. You just have to time it right. You can drop the third as your add-ons to Barracks 4 and 5 are building, and it should fit okay in there. You just have to make sure you don't throw away your first push then by running into absurdly fast Colossi without splits. However, if you are careful, it should be pretty easy to take a third and do a darn good job at making any Protoss third uncomfortable or outright impossible. Then you can immediately add on your next stage of tech and/or another 2-3 Barracks as well as level 2 ups. I think Armory and E-bay is a MUST after this, just because there's no reason to let some cheeky double-Forge bastard just barely hold and then kill on on the counter with 3-3 Chargelots while your 2-1 isn't done.
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Wow thank you for this post! This works great in ladder- At least in my gold league !
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My friend was telling me about this build while he was there. Thanks for writing it up so quickly after the tournament.
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I think it's ok, but it was pretty crazy how well MC picked apart that build and really abused it's weak points. He really makes protoss feel like they have a flexible play style, which isn't conventionally thought of that way. Anyway, the build itself doesn't look that strong to me, but it seemed to do really well for him throughout the tournament. Think I'll have to play around with it a bit and see how it fairs next to the MKP double reactor 1 tech variation.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 29 2012 05:18 Jazzman88 wrote: @bmoneyAK
The attack timing is very similar. In general, you start your push whenever the double Medivacs pop out, which is JUST after 10:00. In testing, I've found that you can have up to 26-28 Marines and 2-6 Marauders when you do this, depending on how good your macro is. This is VERY close to the amount of units you get from a more typical double gas after 3-rax.
The big differences are the follow-ups. In a conventional double gas after 3-rax, you often go heavy lategame after the initial push, grabbing a third and whatever tech you need to stay ahead. In this build, you're sacrificing just the tiniest bit of earlier gas in exchange for getting 5 Barracks up before you drop a third CC. As a result, you are committed to doing a MORE aggressive midgame, because your third is delayed. You have a LOT of firepower for a more extended duration in the midgame. That 32-38 unit initial attack is probably going to be a relatively constant wave size when you're producing out of 5 Barracks, and if you can keep the Medivacs alive even when your pushes are dying, you have a very scary sustained period of pressure.
In terms of upgrades, you will have Stim and +1 Weapons for certain when your initial push hits. Depending on the size of the map (read: walk distance), Combat Shields and even Concussive MAY have finished (but it would be VERY tight).
The crucial difference is not the outright effectiveness of each build, but the philosophy. I myself am a VERY committed 3-rax double gas player, and I play it well. However, when I play that build, I almost never think to myself that "I should win right now if I just keep swarming him". I always have a lategame transition planned out. With this build, even though there are many excellent late-game options here for you, you will occasionally run into builds where you say: "Man, I know I'm starting my third, but if I don't make a mistake, I can just crush this right here or the next wave". 5 Barracks (2 Reactor, 3 Tech Lab) lacks the swarm power of the CC-first 6-rax, but it is a very safe build, able to chuck out 7 Marines/cycle or 4 Marines/3 Marauders as fits the enemy composition. I think similarly to the 6-rax, your goal should be to keep him low on gas units and AoE. Remember that stimmed bio eats Gateway for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and you'll probably have an upgrade edge to keep it that way for a while.
Thanks for this. Was unsure of the reasoning and consequences of using the build.
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sup Regardless of how effective this Build is I wanna thank the Jazzman for this effort. Great post =)
Just tried this in plat and i worked way better than my usual 1rax expo.
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Thank you, I'm definitely going to try this out as a new standard TvP, since I never really knew what to do after 1 rax fe whenever I 1 rax fe.
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On May 29 2012 21:36 KimJongChill wrote: Thank you, I'm definitely going to try this out as a new standard TvP, since I never really knew what to do after 1 rax fe whenever I 1 rax fe.
I think the thing with TvP is you REALLY need to just have an extended plan. The nice thing about pro builds like this is that you can see some of their contingency plans if you watch enough games. Critical is making sure that in your own games you start to apply some of those contingencies.
For example: oh, he's going Colossi off two bases? Could be a heavy timing push, better get a second Starport, some Bunkers, and play very patiently until you can crush him. Fast three-base? Time to take your own third and grind him down mercilessly, getting Ghosts only as you're thinning out his army.
Any 1-rax FE (regardless of gas timing or add-on variant) should do something like this. Have a chain of consequences planned out so that once the initial structure takes shape, the build starts customizing itself to the opponent and giving you a logically timed sequence of options and attacks.
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Time to collect some Ladder points from teh n00bs.
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Great thread, I love how you put the timings next to the supply, really useful for players like me, as I use the ingame timer a ton.
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I've been watching this build alot recently. He sometimes grabs his first gas right after his second rax and leaves 1 worker on it until the 3rd rax is completed.
I have also noticed he floats around 200 - 300 minerals almost the entire build so is it viable to get the 4th rax earlier in the build and get some more marines out?
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On June 05 2012 00:18 fCFiRE wrote: I've been watching this build alot recently. He sometimes grabs his first gas right after his second rax and leaves 1 worker on it until the 3rd rax is completed.
I have also noticed he floats around 200 - 300 minerals almost the entire build so is it viable to get the 4th rax earlier in the build and get some more marines out? early on those minerals are to help defend allins (bunker/scv pull)
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Awesome, I was wondering about the third gas timing.
Something really cool you can do is get the 3rd Starport early and get a reactor on it and make a *** ton of Vikings if he's going for a Colossus push/all-in/build plus the ability to make some more Medivacs since you have way more Viking production, or a *** ton of Medivacs if he's going Gateway/HT/Archon focused so that all the Zealots which are hitting different MM don't do nearly as much damage, and if part of your army gets stormed they take effectively half the damage as Medivacs heal 9HP/S while Storms deal 20 DPS. Stim as much as you want, since if the Medivacs have too much energy they WILL die to feedbacks, and we don't want that now do we?
I recommend getting two Reactors on the 4th and 5th Barracks while doing this since you may be gas-starved, plus Marines synergise much better with high-gas units since they kill/nullify all the Protoss AoE, while Marines are amazing against the remaining gateway units.
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Yoo!
I have been using this build alot. But I´m having a hard time holding blink observer allins. How do you guys defend agianst that with this build?
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not yet sold on this build. even though it is a minor variant of standard play i remain skeptical. it is pretty marine heavy and powers up faster but sacrifices some army value. maybe ill try it out if it sees more success.
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Should also mention that Apollo did a terran learn to play show, where he also goes in depth near the end of the vod looking at the redbull lan replays of bomber and explaining how the build works/plays out etc, http://www.twitch.tv/thegdstudio/b/319946926 , also Great post, keep up the good work <3
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This looks pretty well thought out and flexible in terms of transitioning. Thanks for writing it out OP.
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On June 07 2012 16:48 Pikachu. wrote: Yoo!
I have been using this build alot. But I´m having a hard time holding blink observer allins. How do you guys defend agianst that with this build?
Depends on the map. Given the leeway that you gain in minerals from delaying gas #2, as well as the double tech labs, you can drop Bunkers in the main and start cranking out Marauders. The important thing is to not panic. If you're going to scan to get the Observer, MAKE SURE you get it. Wasting a Scan while scrambling to defend and get up enough units is brutal. If you're in the process of getting Medivacs, keep doing that, and try not to let the Blinkstalkers kill them as they pop. A few Marauders will own a Blinkstalker all-in once Medivacs pop.
Also, try to scout. Fast Twilight Council (as in before additional gates) means one of two things: Blinkstalker all-in or DTs. You can't afford a whole lot of Sentries when you're building up for that critical DT number, but you ALSO can't afford a large swell of units, whereas the more-or-less continual Stalker production while getting Blink and bringing Warpgates online is kosher. So, lots of units + uber-fast Twilight Council = Blinkstalker, few units + uber-fast Twilight Council = DTs. Plan accordingly, and try to pick off that Observer quickly if possible.
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well written guide
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On June 07 2012 22:23 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 16:48 Pikachu. wrote: Yoo!
I have been using this build alot. But I´m having a hard time holding blink observer allins. How do you guys defend agianst that with this build?
Depends on the map. Given the leeway that you gain in minerals from delaying gas #2, as well as the double tech labs, you can drop Bunkers in the main and start cranking out Marauders. The important thing is to not panic. If you're going to scan to get the Observer, MAKE SURE you get it. Wasting a Scan while scrambling to defend and get up enough units is brutal. If you're in the process of getting Medivacs, keep doing that, and try not to let the Blinkstalkers kill them as they pop. A few Marauders will own a Blinkstalker all-in once Medivacs pop. Also, try to scout. Fast Twilight Council (as in before additional gates) means one of two things: Blinkstalker all-in or DTs. You can't afford a whole lot of Sentries when you're building up for that critical DT number, but you ALSO can't afford a large swell of units, whereas the more-or-less continual Stalker production while getting Blink and bringing Warpgates online is kosher. So, lots of units + uber-fast Twilight Council = Blinkstalker, few units + uber-fast Twilight Council = DTs. Plan accordingly, and try to pick off that Observer quickly if possible.
Thank you sir! Well written guide :D
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Some points : If you scout gateway pressure build bunkers like bomber. If you scout fast double gas try to build ebay before you start stim with the extra minerals. Its better to build ebay and a turret than to waste mules. It will stop voidray allins or dts. If you scout PartinG build stay on 1 gas and get a faster 3rd CC or try to bust him with +1 and upgrades with 5rax. I don't know how the build works vs some of the allins like blink stalkers or sentry busts.
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On June 08 2012 10:39 Severus_ wrote: Some points : If you scout gateway pressure build bunkers like bomber. If you scout fast double gas try to build ebay before you start stim with the extra minerals. Its better to build ebay and a turret than to waste mules. It will stop voidray allins or dts. If you scout PartinG build stay on 1 gas and get a faster 3rd CC or try to bust him with +1 and upgrades with 5rax. I don't know how the build works vs some of the allins like blink stalkers or sentry busts.
All good points. Especially I would like to point people in the direction of the Entombed Valley game versus MC listed in the OP, because MC does a very Parting-esque UBER-fast 3 base, and Bomber just crushes it with so many units.
Really, the build doesn't fare any worse against the typical all-ins than the standard 2-gas after 3-rax that a lot of Terrans do. It just feels a little different on the timings.
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i think out off all korean pro gamers bomber try to push the meta game more than some off the others
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I played this against a Protoss today who went cannon rush into Voidrays, and there was almost no hiccup in the build. Relying on so many minerals so early meant that although my initial 3 rax came up a little slower (as well as the gas), I STILL had about 35 supply of army dumping in his base at 11:00.
If you scout Stargate, you can actually change the add-ons for the 4th and 5th Barracks to both reactors, and just flood marines until he can't handle it. Voidray/Phoenix = much lower Sentry count, which means you can easily overrun him, provided you don't let him get 10 Voidrays up before you hit.
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For the sake of completeness, future reference and also because nobody else has mentioned it here, I would like to add that Day[9] went over this build in the 470th daily: http://blip.tv/file/6172717
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On June 09 2012 04:14 EsX_Raptor wrote:For the sake of completeness, future reference and also because nobody else has mentioned it here, I would like to add that Day[9] went over this build in the 470th daily: http://blip.tv/file/6172717
I already edited it into the OP, under References.
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This seems really interesting, I am going to try it out.
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Has anyone had experience beating the Squirtle allin with this?
(Or with anything for that matter ;; )
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Actually your 3rd CC timing is about the same as if you go standard 1rax expo into 3 rax. The main point of this build is you get a bit more mineral income by getting a late 2nd gaz which then allow you to take a +2rax at 8:30. As Bomber did, you can also get you're 3rd at 8:30 instead of the +2rax, so you can even get your 3rd quicker than the regular build. The difference is with the standard build you have concussive shell and combat shield when you make your 1st push. With this build you can either get a faster 3rd or +2rax sooner than the standard build, so its just about getting less gas for more mineral. Personnally, since I don't believe in ending the game with this push I prefer getting a fast 3rd at 8:30 and the push I make is to delay his 3rd, scouting for which tech path the protoss went for.
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On June 09 2012 14:27 yep wrote: Actually your 3rd CC timing is about the same as if you go standard 1rax expo into 3 rax. The main point of this build is you get a bit more mineral income by getting a late 2nd gaz which then allow you to take a +2rax at 8:30. As Bomber did, you can also get you're 3rd at 8:30 instead of the +2rax, so you can even get your 3rd quicker than the regular build. The difference is with the standard build you have concussive shell and combat shield when you make your 1st push. With this build you can either get a faster 3rd or +2rax sooner than the standard build, so its just about getting less gas for more mineral. Personnally, since I don't believe in ending the game with this push I prefer getting a fast 3rd at 8:30 and the push I make is to delay his 3rd, scouting for which tech path the protoss went for.
Absolutely. It's an 'optimization' rather than a radically different build. You shouldn't assume this will end them, and playing with the macro edge in your back pocket is a great way to play.
And regarding the 'Squirtle timing'... it is possible to beat it. In the Ohana game during the Bomber/Squirtle series from Red Bull Battlegrounds, Bomber does manage to hold it by scouting it barely in time, dropping 2 extra Bunkers, and being patient until he can obliterate the Colossi with a quick push. A key thing he does is drop his Factory on the Protoss third, forcing the Protoss to either: auto-lose after failing the all-in due to no third for him and a third for you; or, crush you right there. It's a knife's edge, because the Colossi are VERY scary, but with the right positioning and quick decision making, it can be done.
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as a GM player, you guys need to think differently when doing a build order.. stop doing time stamps.. stop doing food stamps.. just look what you need to get in what order.. and start production of it as soon as efficiently possible i.e ( consistent production from all buildings). This is when you want to add on these structures and try adaptions as well (delaying tech) cause you need more bunker and so on to keep that efficiency... it aggravates me to no end when ppl use time stamps.. TT
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On June 09 2012 15:52 VPCursed wrote: as a GM player, you guys need to think differently when doing a build order.. stop doing time stamps.. stop doing food stamps.. just look what you need to get in what order.. and start production of it as soon as efficiently possible i.e ( consistent production from all buildings). This is when you want to add on these structures and try adaptions as well (delaying tech) cause you need more bunker and so on to keep that efficiency... it aggravates me to no end when ppl use time stamps.. TT As long as the things are listed in order, shouldn't it be fine anyway?
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On June 09 2012 16:18 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 15:52 VPCursed wrote: as a GM player, you guys need to think differently when doing a build order.. stop doing time stamps.. stop doing food stamps.. just look what you need to get in what order.. and start production of it as soon as efficiently possible i.e ( consistent production from all buildings). This is when you want to add on these structures and try adaptions as well (delaying tech) cause you need more bunker and so on to keep that efficiency... it aggravates me to no end when ppl use time stamps.. TT As long as the things are listed in order, shouldn't it be fine anyway? its much easier to remember it the way im suggesting... and overall it's a just a much better way to think about your build order.. because it reminds you to be optimal and not cut corners if something weird happens to get the tech out faster than it should
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On June 09 2012 16:41 VPCursed wrote: its much easier to remember it the way im suggesting... and overall it's a just a much better way to think about your build order.. because it reminds you to be optimal and not cut corners if something weird happens to get the tech out faster than it should
Well, I see your point, but what I was trying to illustrate was in the top execution of pros performing this build, what is the time that various things occur at? I think it's REALLY important to know that IF you don't get messed with and you HAVEN'T decided to start 2 extra Barracks or your third by 8:30, you're doing something WRONG, and that needs to be fixed. I would hope that people understand that all of the timestamps apply to ideal execution.
Actually, that's important enough to warrant this statement (and I'll actually edit something like that into the OP):
If something happens that severely messes up the build (i.e. a 4-gate or Voidray attack), you should disregard the original timestamps and attempt to rely solely on the order.
And I think it's wrong to suggest that you are always 'better' by thinking about simple ordering. While it's true that you shouldn't be worried about being off by 3 or 5 seconds in either direction, it is VERY important to know what sort of timings you should be aiming for (hence the use of approximate timestamps in my build order).
If the timings bother you, all I can say is that you should feel free to ignore them and experiment with your own. However, I can affirm that the timings I have listed will very much get you the optimized build, as long as you're shooting for a rough approximation of them. And yes, it's important to not try to exactly arrive at the times listed if you encounter obstacles like attacks or harassment.
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On June 09 2012 15:52 VPCursed wrote: as a GM player, you guys need to think differently when doing a build order.. stop doing time stamps.. stop doing food stamps.. just look what you need to get in what order.. and start production of it as soon as efficiently possible i.e ( consistent production from all buildings). This is when you want to add on these structures and try adaptions as well (delaying tech) cause you need more bunker and so on to keep that efficiency... it aggravates me to no end when ppl use time stamps.. TT Having a general timeframe of when something should be happening is far from a bad thing.....especially considering builds like this have optimized timings for a reason. If your very late then you know your macro is off, and if your early you are probably cutting to much. Obviously you need to be flexible ingame if you see opportunity to be greedy or need to defend an attack , but for learning a build saying timestamps are bad is retarded.
The OP with timestamps is a lot easier to give a first look over and have general understanding of whats happening, vs a blank sheet like this
+ Show Spoiler +Depot Rax CC Barracks, Barracks Refinery Refinery as TL completes/Stim starts Factory + Engineering Bay Refinery @ E-bay complete Starport + Reactor Barracks add-ons Barracks, Barracks Refinery 3rd CC
Expecting someone to comprehend and be able to practice the build with zero benchmarks is ridiculous. Obviously you should be watching the replays, thats a visual reinforcement of what you just read.
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On June 10 2012 04:32 uSnAmplified wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 15:52 VPCursed wrote: as a GM player, you guys need to think differently when doing a build order.. stop doing time stamps.. stop doing food stamps.. just look what you need to get in what order.. and start production of it as soon as efficiently possible i.e ( consistent production from all buildings). This is when you want to add on these structures and try adaptions as well (delaying tech) cause you need more bunker and so on to keep that efficiency... it aggravates me to no end when ppl use time stamps.. TT Having a general timeframe of when something should be happening is far from a bad thing.....especially considering builds like this have optimized timings for a reason. If your very late then you know your macro is off, and if your early you are probably cutting to much. Obviously you need to be flexible ingame if you see opportunity to be greedy or need to defend an attack , but for learning a build saying timestamps are bad is retarded. The OP with timestamps is a lot easier to give a first look over and have general understanding of whats happening, vs a blank sheet like this + Show Spoiler +Depot Rax CC Barracks, Barracks Refinery Refinery as TL completes/Stim starts Factory + Engineering Bay Refinery @ E-bay complete Starport + Reactor Barracks add-ons Barracks, Barracks Refinery 3rd CC Expecting someone to comprehend and be able to practice the build with zero benchmarks is ridiculous. Obviously you should be watching the replays, thats a visual reinforcement of what you just read. well, the process i was explaining was that.. you're going to hit those timings just as fast cause these are the rules all pro's live by when it comes to executing their builds... however there is important things to watch-out for like a player who intentionally cuts units or scvs to get tech or upgrades faster... that's something I would keep note of.. the time stamps I guess would help lower players understand where they should be at certain points and maybe thats something I overlooked when i was explaining my thought process... but if people are having trouble with that they should be focusing on just macroing vs computer doing these build orders till they get it perfect : )
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So, the main difference is that the 2nd gas is delayed. This delays tech, but what are the advantages compared to regular double gas?
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On June 11 2012 15:38 superbarnie wrote: So, the main difference is that the 2nd gas is delayed. This delays tech, but what are the advantages compared to regular double gas?
Day9 explains this very well in his daily on the build. When you delay a gas you're gaining about 120 extra minerals per minute(40 per minute SCV going into gas) and by delaying it you're going to have that extra set of money for the barracks at 8:30 and to take a relatively early third(depending on what you see of course)
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summary: need help dealing with DTs using Bomber's build
I feel a particular weakness when using this build vs. toss is the inability I have to deal with DTs. Perhaps the problem is actually just that I fail to understand the correct reaction to DTs, but basically, I know that in MY BEST execution of this build, in YABOT, I can get around 100 supply at 10 minutes (compared to Bombers 102), and around 116 supply (compared to Bombers 122)... my ebay gets put down between 6:35 and 6:48 and my my first turret is NEVER ready for DTs... as the ebay finishes around 7ish BEST CASE, the turret needs another 25 or so seconds?... DTs can hit as early as 6:50... in one game, I happened to have a scan,,.. AND I saw the DT blur in the doorway... AND I had 2 bunkers... I scanned and killed the first 3... but I didn't have the scan for the 2nd warp-in... and my wall wasn't done... he massacred my main, and I felt saving 2 scans is too much for future games.
Can someone please recount how to deal with DTs... my current thoughts are:
1) scout 2 gas early and suspect DTs if wall-in... do I put down ebay sooner ? 2) focus on faster natural wall in ? 3) save 2 scans ? 4) react better dropping turret at main also if spot DTs... (unlikely) 5) how do I move out to punish once DT threat stopped with no ravens ?
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On June 12 2012 07:16 liorv wrote: summary: need help dealing with DTs using Bomber's build
I feel a particular weakness when using this build vs. toss is the inability I have to deal with DTs. Perhaps the problem is actually just that I fail to understand the correct reaction to DTs, but basically, I know that in MY BEST execution of this build, in YABOT, I can get around 100 supply at 10 minutes (compared to Bombers 102), and around 116 supply (compared to Bombers 122)... my ebay gets put down between 6:35 and 6:48 and my my first turret is NEVER ready for DTs... as the ebay finishes around 7ish BEST CASE, the turret needs another 25 or so seconds?... DTs can hit as early as 6:50... in one game, I happened to have a scan,,.. AND I saw the DT blur in the doorway... AND I had 2 bunkers... I scanned and killed the first 3... but I didn't have the scan for the 2nd warp-in... and my wall wasn't done... he massacred my main, and I felt saving 2 scans is too much for future games.
Can someone please recount how to deal with DTs...
DTs are a general soft spot for many 1-rax FE builds. You must scout aggressively. Ideally, you need to spot the early Twilight Council. In general, I like to scan the Protoss base if I have no additional information by about 6:15-6:30. If you saw an early 2 gas, and a scan at 6:30 reveals the following:
EITHER
1. Twilight Council NOT researching anything. 2. Delayed Warp Gates with few gas units.
You can assume that DTs MAY be incoming. The logic behind this is that if he's going DTs, he needs a LOT of gas to get Twilight AND Dark Shrine AND have enough for DTs to do damage (even more is required if he wants to go Prism/DT), so low Sentry count plus delayed Gateways AFTER seeing 2 gas early means he has a lot of gas that you DON'T see involved in his units. He's either terrible (in which case banking a scan/building Turrets isn't bad) or going uber fast tech. Bank a scan, and wait for a typical DT timing at 7-8 minutes. If that doesn't come, in the immortal words of Day9, 'just go fucking kill him'.
Really, it comes down to scouting, scouting, scouting. Doing those aggressive scouting maneuvers will start to teach you the game sense to predict DTs after seeing a specific set of opening moves by Protoss. DTs are complete shit if scouted and prepared for properly.
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During the push with medivacs at 10 minutes, is it better to simply attack the front with all your forces and micro by kiting and lifting units trapped by forcefields? Are there situations where its better to try and drop the main and poke the front simultaneously?
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Thanks for your great job
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On June 13 2012 09:30 ahuang wrote: During the push with medivacs at 10 minutes, is it better to simply attack the front with all your forces and micro by kiting and lifting units trapped by forcefields? Are there situations where its better to try and drop the main and poke the front simultaneously?
If the protoss didn't leave any stalkers in his main then you want to drop in the main. You can also check to see how the protoss layed out his base, Some tosses have really bad building placements and their gateways can make it difficult to pull units back deep into their main because the gateways and tech buildings cause mini chokes. Or if they have too many units sitting in their main and a smallish amount at their nat then run into the nat and kite, when he pulls his units back from his main to his natural to help defend you then drop the main with what you can.
Also if they took a really fast third then I think its better to keep poking aroud looking for an opening since three bases is much harder to properly defend without a large army then just two especially when you have 4 medivacs out with 5 rax rallied to their side of the map.
So its really situational and depending on how the game is flowing and what the protoss is doing.
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Thanks for the response! Makes sense, so if he's on 2 base then, I'll just float my factory in a path so it makes it to his main. And maybe land it somehow to create a choke too.
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I love this build, after watching Day9's daily on it I have been pretty much using/practicing this build only vs P now. I also really enjoy the Bio Raven TvZ style that Bomber does as well (Also a Day9 Daily episode). Thanks to Op for putting this thread together for us. :D glhf
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On June 13 2012 11:22 ArnO- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 09:30 ahuang wrote: During the push with medivacs at 10 minutes, is it better to simply attack the front with all your forces and micro by kiting and lifting units trapped by forcefields? Are there situations where its better to try and drop the main and poke the front simultaneously? If the protoss didn't leave any stalkers in his main then you want to drop in the main. You can also check to see how the protoss layed out his base, Some tosses have really bad building placements and their gateways can make it difficult to pull units back deep into their main because the gateways and tech buildings cause mini chokes. Or if they have too many units sitting in their main and a smallish amount at their nat then run into the nat and kite, when he pulls his units back from his main to his natural to help defend you then drop the main with what you can. Also if they took a really fast third then I think its better to keep poking aroud looking for an opening since three bases is much harder to properly defend without a large army then just two especially when you have 4 medivacs out with 5 rax rallied to their side of the map. So its really situational and depending on how the game is flowing and what the protoss is doing.
In addition, if he's trying to get his third up, I recommend checking his army size with the Factory. If you're not sure whether you can take it, wait for Medivacs 3 and 4, and then deny that third. As he comes to save said base, load up one or two Medivacs and drop his main (you can pre-load and start moving out as soon as you start attacking the third base. Most Protoss will be unable to resist the temptation to try and trap you as you move into the area of the third base. Then they get crunched by a drop that kills half of their tech.
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Thanks for great job
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I'm using thsi build only in my TvP's since redbull battlegrounds (im master terran) and this strat is sooo amazing! I highly recommend it!
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Death to the protoss scum. LONG LIVE THE DOMINION.
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Guys, you have to be careful if you can't trade effectively with this style, since if you don't you have a ton of supply in MMM that you can't use for Ghosts and Vikings, so you have to do a lot of aggression to make sure you trade with the Protoss as much as possible so you have supply remaining to get Ghosts and Vikings, while not being way behind on army size.
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On June 16 2012 09:52 Fencer710 wrote: Guys, you have to be careful if you can't trade effectively with this style, since if you don't you have a ton of supply in MMM that you can't use for Ghosts and Vikings, so you have to do a lot of aggression to make sure you trade with the Protoss as much as possible so you have supply remaining to get Ghosts and Vikings, while not being way behind on army size.
Good point. In particular, try and gun for Protoss gas units early on. Kill Sentries and Colossi, because you will have Medivacs and Bio which shits all over Zealot/Stalker in almost any amounts. The less gas units they have, the less AoE is there to damage your bioball.
I would also recommend getting either the Ghost Academy or your second Starport immediately after making the natural response to whatever tech you see at the first push. For example, if he already has Colossi, drop the Ghost Academy just after you add the second Starport, because you KNOW the Templar switch is coming, and if you ALREADY have Moebius Reactor done when you need to switch, you're golden.
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United Kingdom20150 Posts
What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus.
My composition is usually very zealot heavy, with only 3-6 stalkers, and i wouldnt dream of having less than 5-6 gates before this hits as otherwise it seems you would immediately die to the massive amount of DPS without actuly killing anything in his army, and i always open 15 nex, 14gate/17gasnexpyloncore, MC style 1gate expand. My average unspent resources is better than average vs the opponents i face and i often reach this point in the game without hitting a supply block, so i am not sure what is going wrong. Surely i should be able to scout this with an obs at 40-50 supply and hold by something other than the skin of my teeth (assuming i hold) while being a base down? I feel like there is some key i am missing, because this is extremely painful to hold, even without good micro from terran.
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On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote: What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus
Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements.
In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack.
In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this:
1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step.
2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs.
3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings.
After this, play a very normal PvT lategame.
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United Kingdom20150 Posts
On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote: What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame.
Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack?
Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks.
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On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote: What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks.
I would suggest not cutting probes at all. It's very possible to go Gate -> gas -> Nexus -> Core -> Robo as a very standard 1-gate FE. From there, I would suggest 2 additional gates, a second gas, and throw down your Robotics Bay by the 7-8 minute mark IF you are not going for heavy 3-gate pressure. After starting Colossi and Thermal Lance, get some Sentries to supplement your ability to defend and go up to at least 6 gates so you can get a third base and upgrades as your next step. In addition, grab at least 2 Observers to keep an eye on the Terran forces (a really great technique is assigning one Observer to sit in the Terran's base and another to rally to his Medivacs to check for drops and the initial move-out). You need the economy and the Terran will not be attacking before 9-11 minutes, so crank out those probes.
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hw the hell do you counter blink stalk build with this? even if you know its coming
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On June 23 2012 03:28 AcesAnoka wrote: hw the hell do you counter blink stalk build with this? even if you know its coming
What map? I find cloud kingdom to be the hardest. The main rule with holding these is to just last until stim and medivacs are out. Pull scvs if you need to engage and try to snipe the obs to give yourself some time. You need medivacs but having an army when they pop is equally important, so add on some extra rax if you need to (you probably will). Also if you want you can place a bunker in range of their blink, so that you can stall a tiny bit longer. It's still really hard though.
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On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote: What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks.
youre not supposed to get away with 2forges colo and a quick 3rd vs a 5rax off 2bases. unless its an imbalanced map u should lose everytime, minus terran screwup/godawful luck. post replay for detailled help but i think its a flawed reasonning.
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On June 23 2012 03:50 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote: What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks. youre not supposed to get away with 2forges colo and a quick 3rd vs a 5rax off 2bases. unless its an imbalanced map u should lose everytime, minus terran screwup/godawful luck. post replay for detailled help but i think its a flawed reasonning. thats why the advice hes responding to clearly says to delay the third until after the pressure is defended.
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A note to Terrans using this build:
If you push out at normal times and discover that he has a significant Sentry count AND Colossus already out, you DO NOT have to engage, unless he has also taken a third base before you get there. If he has that fast of a third, you attack it. One of two things happens: either you kill the third and go home satisfied that yours is up to defend a probably 3-Colossus all-in push, or he tries to engage you to save the third, doesn't have enough because he went for the fast base AND tech, and dies.
If, on the other hand, he doesn't yet have his third done, and he went Sentry -> fast Colossus, you should probably back off unless he's positioned badly. Immediately drop Starport two and go into heavy Viking production. Try to use Scans and the Factory to see if it's a heavy attack (in which case keep making Vikings) or a fake-out into third and tech switch (in which case, get Ghosts quickly and take a fourth base). Fast Colossi pushes can wreck you VERY easily if you don't see them coming. If the Factory isn't there early enough, you can Scan to avoid walking into a trap.
Alternatively, wait for 4 Medivacs, and then drop him WHILE hitting the front. Try to kill a lot of Probes, snipe a tech building or two, but don't lose everything for that cause.
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I Realy love this build! Got me a 73% winrate vs toss on ladder in gold leaugue. I like to drop 1 medivac in main minderal line and atack with the other medivac up front at the nat if theere are no collusus its usualy a win. have been loosing vs DT,s and 4 gate's. But maybe thats because im not good at scouting.
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On June 23 2012 03:43 Seiferz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:28 AcesAnoka wrote: hw the hell do you counter blink stalk build with this? even if you know its coming What map? I find cloud kingdom to be the hardest. The main rule with holding these is to just last until stim and medivacs are out. Pull scvs if you need to engage and try to snipe the obs to give yourself some time. You need medivacs but having an army when they pop is equally important, so add on some extra rax if you need to (you probably will). Also if you want you can place a bunker in range of their blink, so that you can stall a tiny bit longer. It's still really hard though. Antiga, guy just came in, sniped my tech lab with stim and i only had marines. This build seems so damn vulnerable to it
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On June 23 2012 03:57 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:50 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote: What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks. youre not supposed to get away with 2forges colo and a quick 3rd vs a 5rax off 2bases. unless its an imbalanced map u should lose everytime, minus terran screwup/godawful luck. post replay for detailled help but i think its a flawed reasonning. thats why the advice hes responding to clearly says to delay the third until after the pressure is defended.
yea and i ask for replay because it seems theres something fundamentally wron gwith what he does and he would get more help with a replay, im not saying this to be a douche
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On June 23 2012 21:13 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:57 nath wrote:On June 23 2012 03:50 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote: What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks. youre not supposed to get away with 2forges colo and a quick 3rd vs a 5rax off 2bases. unless its an imbalanced map u should lose everytime, minus terran screwup/godawful luck. post replay for detailled help but i think its a flawed reasonning. thats why the advice hes responding to clearly says to delay the third until after the pressure is defended. yea and i ask for replay because it seems theres something fundamentally wron gwith what he does and he would get more help with a replay, im not saying this to be a douche
Since this is a discussion thread about the TvP strategy, it's also probably not the best place to be going for help with one specific PvT game. The advice I gave is very general, and highly dependent on map and other factors. It would be better to submit a general [H] topic if you want to submit specific replays for analysis.
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United Kingdom20150 Posts
On June 23 2012 03:50 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 15:05 Cyro wrote:On June 16 2012 14:15 Jazzman88 wrote:On June 16 2012 14:04 Cyro wrote: What is the best way to deal with this as a protoss? I havnt seen a big post, and im having a ton of trouble with high dia and low masters terran doing this style of play. I used to occasionally take a fast third base vs gasless expand terrans, but i find myself (with an SQ in the 80-90's) meeting this push with 1-1, or a colossus, forcefielding well, engaging under guardian shield, having my stalkers, zeal/sentry and colossus hotkeyed seperately, and still somehow loosing. I used to crush any 2-4 medivac attacks without breaking a sweat, often with that quick third base from 3gate robo double forge, but i actuly died twice yesterday after scouting rax 4+5 and deciding to hang back at my natural ramp with forcefields because the high marine count, micro, stutterstep and lifting around ff's seems to kill my entire ground army before i can make a big dent in his force, even with the colossus Your best bet is to try and play safely. You will need a good chunk of Sentries to hold the initial attack, and relatively quick Colossi to back that up. There's no need to take a Parting speed of third, a normally-timed third after deflecting the initial push is fine. If you have 5-6 gates and a Robo up getting Colossi out, you can survive the midgame (depending on both sides' micro and strategy). After that, it becomes a very normal army dance with split forces and correct engagements. In addition, you can try some 3-gate pressure to try and reduce the amount of units that will be retained for the Medivac push. You HAVE to do that without losing many units: the goal is not to kill the Terran, but reduce the effectiveness of the midgame push. If you fail to kill anything OR you lose too many Sentries while failing to break the front, however, it becomes doubly hard to defend the powerful follow-up attack. In a nutshell, here should be the Protoss philosophy against this: 1. I must have a suitable Sentry count, and take a midgame third while getting Colossi as a first step. 2. The Terran WILL see this, and the struggle will be to place forcefields and deny drops correctly to survive the scary initial stim push. It's also possible to go for VERY fast Colossi to nullify big bioballs. 3. After getting Colossi and a third, transition swiftly to Templar, because the Terran WILL have the economy to swap into Vikings. After this, play a very normal PvT lategame. Thanks for the post. As a benchmark, what timing should i drop my robo bay, and what ratios of gate units should i have at 10:00 (or whatever relevant timing) as well as 1-2 colossi to ideally hold this kind of attack? Also, should i try just not cutting probes at all (from either nex) til i have >50? I usually find myself uncomfortably cutting some to warp units, etc, and im not sure if that is natural or if i should just miss entire warp cycles, and how it would fare against various attacks. youre not supposed to get away with 2forges colo and a quick 3rd vs a 5rax off 2bases. unless its an imbalanced map u should lose everytime, minus terran screwup/godawful luck. post replay for detailled help but i think its a flawed reasonning.
Um, not sure if it was obvious (it should be to a high level protoss, who i was targetting with my post?) but i was referring to getting 1-1 OR a colossus, with 3gate robo > doubleforge (and especially expand before added gates) being a different opening and midgame entirely (with no colossi in sight), there should be a thread or two referencing creatorprime etc with it. Im 60% win vs half low masters right now, im bad but not that bad.
Edit: Maybe not so obvious, but thats what i meant. Thats how i talk about the matchup with a few friends, and i figured the meaning would get across
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Hi guys,
Would the same advantages apply to using this is TvT? I like to 1 rax FE into 3 rax + medivac play in TvT. I control the watchtowers and if they go mech try and get a third before they do and force them to stay in base. I get combat shield first as well. I think that the faster potential third or ability to add on additional raxes sooner might work just as well in TVT. Is it me, or is this just a more efficient way to 1 rax FE into more bio in any matchup?
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Hey guys! I added some brief notes about DT openings to the 'Conditions' section. If you don't feel like going through the whole discussion to see it, the gist of it is this:
- DT openings are becoming a little more common - given that a DT opening, sacrifices early pressure for sneak attack potential, 2nd Bunker is not necessary initially - if scouting early 2 gas with almost no Sentries and no Gateway swell, expect DTs to be possible - you can drop your E-bay as early as 5:30 in that case (or in any time between 5:30 and 6:30) without disrupting the build - build a prophylactic Turret in the natural and deflect with ease - go win (but SAVE SCANS just in case)
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United States4883 Posts
Thanks for the guide!! I've been hearing so much about this build and I've been really frustrated with the standard 3rax build...this build has helped IMMENSELY given it's flexible and aggressive nature!!!
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United States4883 Posts
On June 23 2012 07:47 freerolll wrote: I Realy love this build! Got me a 73% winrate vs toss on ladder in gold leaugue. I like to drop 1 medivac in main minderal line and atack with the other medivac up front at the nat if theere are no collusus its usualy a win. have been loosing vs DT,s and 4 gate's. But maybe thats because im not good at scouting.
If you are having trouble with 4gates, try hiding an SCV on his side of the map and send him into the main at around 5:30-6:00; you should be able to get into his base if he's 4-gating, and if you see 4gates, just throw down 2 bunkers immediately. Also, with the build, you can actually just throw down 1-2 blind bunkers without messing up the timing of anything.
For DTs, just make sure you've got a turret up at 7:30 every game. You'll never lose to DTs.
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On June 28 2012 16:58 SC2John wrote:
If you are having trouble with 4gates, try hiding an SCV on his side of the map and send him into the main at around 5:30-6:00; you should be able to get into his base if he's 4-gating, and if you see 4gates, just throw down 2 bunkers immediately. Also, with the build, you can actually just throw down 1-2 blind bunkers without messing up the timing of anything.
For DTs, just make sure you've got a turret up at 7:30 every game. You'll never lose to DTs.
This advice about 4-gate is very good. 4-gate is actually a very bad build against Terran, especially the higher you climb the ladder. The only variant that is even a little bit viable (in normal circumstances) is Prism 4-gate to Forcefield the natural ramp.
And for DTs, I would further add that if you DON'T see double gas either on your 4-6 minute SCV pokes or whatever Scans you use during the same time, DTs are an impossibility. Getting Twilight Council and the Dark Shrine and the Gates plus the DT warp-in itself takes so much gas that you can't do it viably without taking that early gas. And if he does go for delayed DTs to do Chargelot/Archon, your push will do INSANE damage once you notice the DTs, Scan, and then walk over him because he doesn't have enough Sentries.
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On June 25 2012 18:56 bmoneyAK wrote: Hi guys,
Would the same advantages apply to using this is TvT? I like to 1 rax FE into 3 rax + medivac play in TvT. I control the watchtowers and if they go mech try and get a third before they do and force them to stay in base. I get combat shield first as well. I think that the faster potential third or ability to add on additional raxes sooner might work just as well in TVT. Is it me, or is this just a more efficient way to 1 rax FE into more bio in any matchup?
I tihnk you need the extra gas because when I went combat shield first off this build i didnt have enough gas to imediately start factory/stim/upgrades. Also, in TvT you can pop down reactors a lot more quickly off 2 gas.
The bio build i use in TvT is Thorzain's, so after the 1 rax CC:
rax 2 gas (put 2 in ea gas) rax + ebay reactor on rax techlab on rax combast shield reactort on last gas put 3 in ea gas +1 factory starport/reactor get gas on expo
The gas in this build works wonderfully
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United States4883 Posts
On June 28 2012 23:57 Jazzman88 wrote:
This advice about 4-gate is very good. 4-gate is actually a very bad build against Terran, especially the higher you climb the ladder. The only variant that is even a little bit viable (in normal circumstances) is Prism 4-gate to Forcefield the natural ramp.
I might add the 6:30 delayed 3-4-gate with 3 sentries. In the past is was used as basically a stronger all-in, but terrans can generally handle it at the higher levels, so protosses have been using this timing to do some pressure damage in the early game while establishing their natural and getting tech up.
Another variation is a 7:30 3-4-gate pressure, which is about the same, except slightly more economical and long-term focused.
Again, something Bomber's build does EXCELLENTLY against. Wonderful, wonderful optimization of gas.
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What if the guy did colo rush? Just faced a guy and at like 10:30 he had 2 colo and a lot of sentry stalker. I got shredded. Ever encountered this?
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On July 01 2012 02:30 Thylacine wrote: What if the guy did colo rush? Just faced a guy and at like 10:30 he had 2 colo and a lot of sentry stalker. I got shredded. Ever encountered this?
yea watch vs squirtle on ohana. the allin squirtle is different, doesnt reinforce well but hit quicker without theromlance. for standardsaliins u need to scout it, get bunkers for the 10.30 that u already know, and u can either get vikings off 1 port, or get a 2nd one. if u opt to 2 starports and toss doesnt allin u but ends up getting upgrades and a 3rd u will have to allin him off 5 rax 2 ports with 12 vikings at around 13 minand hell most likely dies if he went naked colo then axpanded and teched
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On July 01 2012 02:30 Thylacine wrote: What if the guy did colo rush? Just faced a guy and at like 10:30 he had 2 colo and a lot of sentry stalker. I got shredded. Ever encountered this?
Think of it this way:
In order to have 2 Colossus and that many units by 10:30, he is SO far behind in upgrades and a third base that ALL you need to do is hold. You need to drop a second Starport IMMEDIATELY upon scouting this (ideally you should Scan or scout this before that 10:00 mark - say between 8 and 9) and Bunker up the front while cranking out those Vikings. If he's not making his presence felt on the map because of your Medivacs, park a Marine near his front to spot the move-out. Load up a Medivac and drop his main the instant he moves out: the more he delays to ward off that sort of thing, the more Vikings you get and the farther behind his third base is. Don't be afraid to back up until you reach a position where the Vikings can strike at the Colossi without getting murdered by Stalkers. It will be tense, but if you hold without sacrificing your natural, you can win easily.
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On July 01 2012 02:50 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 02:30 Thylacine wrote: What if the guy did colo rush? Just faced a guy and at like 10:30 he had 2 colo and a lot of sentry stalker. I got shredded. Ever encountered this? Think of it this way: In order to have 2 Colossus and that many units by 10:30, he is SO far behind in upgrades and a third base that ALL you need to do is hold. You need to drop a second Starport IMMEDIATELY upon scouting this (ideally you should Scan or scout this before that 10:00 mark - say between 8 and 9) and Bunker up the front while cranking out those Vikings. If he's not making his presence felt on the map because of your Medivacs, park a Marine near his front to spot the move-out. Load up a Medivac and drop his main the instant he moves out: the more he delays to ward off that sort of thing, the more Vikings you get and the farther behind his third base is. Don't be afraid to back up until you reach a position where the Vikings can strike at the Colossi without getting murdered by Stalkers. It will be tense, but if you hold without sacrificing your natural, you can win easily.
He added the 3rd at 11:00, not late at all. He had forge up I believe, too...
Just played another game...and I have to say This build is extreme countered by HT rush, too. At 10:00 when I pushed I had a massive army but the guy had gateway + 6 hts = 6 storms and its just to much for the bio army, specially when its so friggin marine heavy.
Might wanna add that into the ''Conditions section''
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On July 01 2012 03:26 Thylacine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 02:50 Jazzman88 wrote:On July 01 2012 02:30 Thylacine wrote: What if the guy did colo rush? Just faced a guy and at like 10:30 he had 2 colo and a lot of sentry stalker. I got shredded. Ever encountered this? Think of it this way: In order to have 2 Colossus and that many units by 10:30, he is SO far behind in upgrades and a third base that ALL you need to do is hold. You need to drop a second Starport IMMEDIATELY upon scouting this (ideally you should Scan or scout this before that 10:00 mark - say between 8 and 9) and Bunker up the front while cranking out those Vikings. If he's not making his presence felt on the map because of your Medivacs, park a Marine near his front to spot the move-out. Load up a Medivac and drop his main the instant he moves out: the more he delays to ward off that sort of thing, the more Vikings you get and the farther behind his third base is. Don't be afraid to back up until you reach a position where the Vikings can strike at the Colossi without getting murdered by Stalkers. It will be tense, but if you hold without sacrificing your natural, you can win easily. He added the 3rd at 11:00, not late at all. He had forge up I believe, too... Just played another game...and I have to say This build is extreme countered by HT rush, too. At 10:00 when I pushed I had a massive army but the guy had gateway + 6 hts = 6 storms and its just to much for the bio army, specially when its so friggin marine heavy. Might wanna add that into the ''Conditions section''
Are you sure it's a build thing and not a unit control thing? I'd like to see the replays. If you look under the example games you'll see Bomber dealing with a VERY strong Colossi push and winning quite easily after that.
Also, if you have your third started by 9:30 and his starts at 11:00, plus you scout the Colossi and make the right number of Vikings, you should still be ahead (because you WILL have 2 E-bays + Armory + 2nd Starport by now; he can't afford a relatively early third, quick Colossi, lots of Sentry/Stalker, AND all the upgrades he wants - there's just not enough gas on two bases for all of that). Was it one Forge or two you saw? If it's one, you're still way ahead. If it's two, but there's no Twilight yet, your army will be bigger and stay bigger and you'll still be even for now on ups. You just can't engage into bad positions. If you get there, and you see 6 Sentries and 2 Colossi and no third or a third just started, you can probably cancel the third with a quick stim in and then go home without facing his army, macroing up the whole time. Although the build is aggressive, there is NO way that you should throw away units just for the sake of attacking. Be intelligent about your engagements.
In regards to High Templar, again, it's a matter of control. A quick High Templar play is not going to defend a third base very well in my opinion if he tried to take it as fast as yours. A very fast HT rush only gets storm JUST as you're getting to his base with the push the times I've seen it executed, so I would say that if you scout that happening before that period, you should be able to just GO. If he had time to research Storm and sink all of that gas into HTs with enough time for them to build up energy, his other army will be much weaker earlier on, and he may just die right there (he certainly won't be able to sustain a third even if he took it).
Again, I'd love to see the replays to see exactly what went on and whether it IS an actual weak spot of the build, because that's important to know.
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I expand at like 10:45, that's my failure part. The problem has been that I try to end the game by adding even more raxes as I push and this just countered me, I should've expanded and won.
About the HT part, he has no expansion but he is about to take one. He also had 1 ht and a few zealots in his base to prevent drops. Best thing to do there is just get 4th + ghost academy, but then the horror is that he might push and electrify my army in one second.
And I saw 2 forges in the collosi game.
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On July 01 2012 17:50 Thylacine wrote: I expand at like 10:45, that's my failure part. The problem has been that I try to end the game by adding even more raxes as I push and this just countered me, I should've expanded and won.
About the HT part, he has no expansion but he is about to take one. He also had 1 ht and a few zealots in his base to prevent drops. Best thing to do there is just get 4th + ghost academy, but then the horror is that he might push and electrify my army in one second.
And I saw 2 forges in the collosi game.
Oh, okay. Hmm.
I think you're absolutely correct that the correct expand timings should still have you ahead. It's remembering to be taking and securing that base while you move out that's the trick. I still stand by the opinion that if you see two forges and a bunch of gas units, he's probably only recently got the forges and you still should be about even with him.
Yeah, fast High Templar are not so good for aggression in a solely Gateway army, because decent Terran players will bait at least some Storms while macroing out Ghosts back home as you saturate that third, and the Zealot/Stalker force doesn't engage efficiently enough with the bioball to lock it down for Storms to own it completely.
I think in nearly all circumstances, no matter what your opponent is playing, expanding at that money time is crucial, and then playing from there with the hopeful macro edge. The 5 early Barracks plus the early 3rd really makes it tough for the Protoss to find a window where he can safely attack at all, and if he does realize that and go for an even faster third of his, he's going to be forced to be almost perfect with his defense in the midgame to not die immediately.
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isn't this really similar to filtersc's build?
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On July 03 2012 13:16 OneBaseKing wrote: isn't this really similar to filtersc's build?
Not having an encyclopedic knowledge of all builds ever published on TL, I'm not sure. However, I did check most current TvP build order guides before writing this particular one, so to the best of my knowledge, the topic hadn't been covered in this way or depth before. If you have another guide that covers similar stuff, please, let me know so I can link it into this one and give whatever credit is due.
The reason this deserves its own guide in my opinion is that Bomber used this almost exclusively at the Red Bull Battlegrounds versus all the Protoss there, and with the exception of the finals match, absolutely crushed with it. It has been ladder tested since repeatedly by myself and many other Terran players with a fair degree of success.
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On June 28 2012 16:58 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 07:47 freerolll wrote: I Realy love this build! Got me a 73% winrate vs toss on ladder in gold leaugue. I like to drop 1 medivac in main minderal line and atack with the other medivac up front at the nat if theere are no collusus its usualy a win. have been loosing vs DT,s and 4 gate's. But maybe thats because im not good at scouting. If you are having trouble with 4gates, try hiding an SCV on his side of the map and send him into the main at around 5:30-6:00; you should be able to get into his base if he's 4-gating, and if you see 4gates, just throw down 2 bunkers immediately. Also, with the build, you can actually just throw down 1-2 blind bunkers without messing up the timing of anything. For DTs, just make sure you've got a turret up at 7:30 every game. You'll never lose to DTs. I am not sure how scouting at 6 mins helps you defend against a 4 gate since they should already be warping in units by that time. Leave Protoss base before 4 minutes when first stalker pops and then come back in at 5. If they have units at the ramp at 5 mins, they are not 4 gating or they are just really really bad. Also, 1 base DTs warp in at about 6:30.
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On July 04 2012 01:18 U_G_L_Y wrote: I am not sure how scouting at 6 mins helps you defend against a 4 gate since they should already be warping in units by that time. Leave Protoss base before 4 minutes when first stalker pops and then come back in at 5. If they have units at the ramp at 5 mins, they are not 4 gating or they are just really really bad. Also, 1 base DTs warp in at about 6:30.
1-base DT is a super bad build, because you have 2 Orbitals, plus an E-bay down by that point. In addition, your scouting (from 5-6 minutes) will tell you if he's one-basing, in which case, the walled front will keep DTs out at the front (in general) and all you need is one Scan to put the Protoss SO far behind, and while you're dealing with that, you can get Missile Turrets up. Sometimes you might even throw down a security Scan in their base to see what the tech is, and if something seems fishy, drop the Missile Turrets down just to not die. Basically, if it's one-base DTs, the Protoss has to hope to get SUPER lucky by hitting right after you drop MULEs, or he loses (and he also loses if you have started pre-emptive Turrets as soon as you finish the E-bay).
And with the 4-gate, your initial scouting should give you a hint: when the SCV is in the base, you'll see 1 gas, and lots of chrono saved on the Nexus. If he starts chronoing the Warp Gate research and doesn't drop that second gas, you should already be thinking about Bunker #2. A re-scout at 5-5:30 will confirm that it's 4-gate (with no expand), and you can safely pull a few SCVs in front of the Bunkers just to be secure (it won't affect you that much since you're already ahead in economy). I would also recommend patrolling one or two Marines on easy-to-access cliffs JUST in case it ends up being Warp Prism 4-gate.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 04 2012 01:18 U_G_L_Y wrote: I am not sure how scouting at 6 mins helps you defend against a 4 gate since they should already be warping in units by that time. Leave Protoss base before 4 minutes when first stalker pops and then come back in at 5. If they have units at the ramp at 5 mins, they are not 4 gating or they are just really really bad. Also, 1 base DTs warp in at about 6:30.
1) scouting at >>>>5:30<<<-6:00. I maintain that scouting earlier is a waste of a scout and forces you to waste a scan; if he ISNT going 4-gate, you can check his expansion, unit comp, and gases, maybe even get a poke into the main. 2) As you scout, you go through a checklist of: no expansion, no units at front, 4 GATES YAY!! 3) The scouting allows you to start a second and third bunker and pull SCVs to repair 4) The FIRST warp-in comes at 5:45...if they attack with the first wave, they lose...4-gate ALWAYS has to wait for the second warp in, 30 seconds later.
And yes, you're right about the DTs (6:45 warp-in). Although, they don't typically arrive at your base until 7:00-7:15.
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United Kingdom20150 Posts
On July 04 2012 03:21 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 01:18 U_G_L_Y wrote: I am not sure how scouting at 6 mins helps you defend against a 4 gate since they should already be warping in units by that time. Leave Protoss base before 4 minutes when first stalker pops and then come back in at 5. If they have units at the ramp at 5 mins, they are not 4 gating or they are just really really bad. Also, 1 base DTs warp in at about 6:30.
1) scouting at >>>>5:30<<<-6:00. I maintain that scouting earlier is a waste of a scout and forces you to waste a scan; if he ISNT going 4-gate, you can check his expansion, unit comp, and gases, maybe even get a poke into the main. 2) As you scout, you go through a checklist of: no expansion, no units at front, 4 GATES YAY!! 3) The scouting allows you to start a second and third bunker and pull SCVs to repair 4) The FIRST warp-in comes at 5:45...if they attack with the first wave, they lose...4-gate ALWAYS has to wait for the second warp in, 30 seconds later. And yes, you're right about the DTs (6:45 warp-in). Although, they don't typically arrive at your base until 7:00-7:15.
You can get the first warp from a 4gate at around ~5:22 if you are really sharp about it, and you can also get 1 base DT's warped before 6:00 IIRC
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On July 04 2012 10:08 Cyro wrote:
You can get the first warp from a 4gate at around ~5:22 if you are really sharp about it, and you can also get 1 base DT's warped before 6:00 IIRC
IF you cut literally everything else. There's no way that a pre-6:00 DT attack should EVER work if your opponent actually scouts. You will have almost no other units, with no follow-up tech, and no economy. It is cheese in its most coin-flippy form.
Same with a 4-gate. 4-gate is such a easily-telegraphed build. All good Terrans will build at least one additional Bunker at 5:00 if they see no Protoss expansion, sometimes 2. Since 4-gate really needs a good 2 rounds to get through a typical Terran defense, there's more than enough time to hold it.
My opinion remains that this build can easily deflect any of the common Protoss all-ins before 7-8 minutes if you scout correctly. The minerals are all there, and the ability to scout on time is there. It's up to you to make it work.
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How would u react to early HT play with this build..? when would u squeeze in a ghost academy or do you even need one?
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On July 05 2012 04:59 ff7legend wrote: How would u react to early HT play with this build..? when would u squeeze in a ghost academy or do you even need one?
When you push out and scan his ramp to see if you can push up or drop instead, you will see if he go HT. If you do, just drop a ghost academy. If you see collossus, lift a reactor barrack and build a second starport at it's reactor and build a new reactor with your barrack.
If he have HT with storm before you push out. It means he tech super fast and you will probably have more bases (third up vs 2), better upgrades (1-0 done, 1-1 on its way) and bigger army than him. In most cases if he go HT he probably only have archons when you push out. You have time to get out your ghosts and if there is a forced fight before that, you can easily micro against 2-4 storms.
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On July 05 2012 04:59 ff7legend wrote: How would u react to early HT play with this build..? when would u squeeze in a ghost academy or do you even need one?
Xertion has good advice. Let me also add this:
When you're moving out the first time, you should be doing it in concert with a scouting Factory. If you see NO Colossi (notwithstanding a possible hidden Robo Bay), and at least one Forge, you can actually already drop your Ghost Academy, because he's more likely to go Templar with a primarily Gateway army. Sometimes you can get a read on this as early as 7-8 minutes, and already be planning when to drop the Academy. The logic behind this is that a Protoss that fast expands and doesn't get fast Colossi BUT gets 1 or 2 Forges for upgrades MUST be relying on Sentries and some mix of Gateway units very heavily, otherwise he dies straight up to a normal bio push. Therefore, it's more consistent for him to go into Templar before Colossi, which means you can preemptively get a Ghost Academy and be forestalling any HT play while you take your third.
Possible scouting tells for HT play even if you don't see the Templar Archives:
- 5+ Gates and an early third - early double Forge with no Robotics Bay - no Observer spotting in your base and no Gateway all-in (this is a BIG one, because 99 times out of 100, they really want that advance warning of your attacks; if they don't have one anywhere you can bet that gas has gotten turbo-dumped into something else more pressing, like Storm)
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It almost seems like this build is just better than the 1raxFE 2 gas in almost every way. Should I be using it in all matchups? I currently use the filtersc 1raxFE tutorial platinum build in all matchups, but this seems better.
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On July 05 2012 07:18 zefreak wrote: It almost seems like this build is just better than the 1raxFE 2 gas in almost every way. Should I be using it in all matchups? I currently use the filtersc 1raxFE tutorial platinum build in all matchups, but this seems better.
I think Bomber's build will work in all match-ups, More Marauders for Protross, Tanks for Terran and marines for Zerg. the most important thing for both builds is 50 scv's at 10 minutes. It allows you to build more stuff !!!!
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On July 05 2012 07:18 zefreak wrote: It almost seems like this build is just better than the 1raxFE 2 gas in almost every way. Should I be using it in all matchups? I currently use the filtersc 1raxFE tutorial platinum build in all matchups, but this seems better.
I would not recommend this build in every matchup. The reason this build is so strong against Protoss is that it is optimized to align with the natural timings of the matchup and give you the best chance for advantage against similar FE styles of play. It is NOT designed with the expansion and tech timings of either Terran or Zerg opponents in mind.
The main weakness versus Zerg is the way the two races interact. Although you can drop Bunkers early on with impunity to remain safe from things like Roach rushes and Zergling attacks, it lacks the correctly timed punch to really do much damage to the modern Zerg economy (yes, you're hitting between 10-11, but many Zergs will preemptively create enough Banelings to forestall a 10 minute attack due to its reliability in slowing Lair tech armies down). Versus Zerg this build would become a strategy that is almost entirely dependent on how good your anti-baneling micro is. Although it's possible, I think there are better ways to play bio in TvZ (try a 14CC into 2x Rax with a follow up of Reactor Hellions and an additional Rax for a strong Bio + Hellion stim timing attack which is safe from many conventional Zerg all-ins), and it doesn't get the double ups that modern TvZ really wants at an early enough timing.
In TvT, the main difference between this build and the sort of thing you want to play is the presence of the second Tech Lab, which I would recommend swapping for a Reactor if you play this TvT. It's going to be very vulnerable to Siege Tank all-ins because of how the add-on timings work, although it will completely shut down Banshee cheese due to the E-bay timing. Again, while you CAN play a TvT bio style using this build, it has to change so much to optimize for it that you might as well be doing a different build (for example, a Thorzain-style 2x gas with 2 in each to maximize minerals while getting all the necessary infrastructure).
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On July 05 2012 10:50 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 07:18 zefreak wrote: It almost seems like this build is just better than the 1raxFE 2 gas in almost every way. Should I be using it in all matchups? I currently use the filtersc 1raxFE tutorial platinum build in all matchups, but this seems better. I would not recommend this build in every matchup. The reason this build is so strong against Protoss is that it is optimized to align with the natural timings of the matchup and give you the best chance for advantage against similar FE styles of play. It is NOT designed with the expansion and tech timings of either Terran or Zerg opponents in mind. The main weakness versus Zerg is the way the two races interact. Although you can drop Bunkers early on with impunity to remain safe from things like Roach rushes and Zergling attacks, it lacks the correctly timed punch to really do much damage to the modern Zerg economy (yes, you're hitting between 10-11, but many Zergs will preemptively create enough Banelings to forestall a 10 minute attack due to its reliability in slowing Lair tech armies down). Versus Zerg this build would become a strategy that is almost entirely dependent on how good your anti-baneling micro is. Although it's possible, I think there are better ways to play bio in TvZ (try a 14CC into 2x Rax with a follow up of Reactor Hellions and an additional Rax for a strong Bio + Hellion stim timing attack which is safe from many conventional Zerg all-ins), and it doesn't get the double ups that modern TvZ really wants at an early enough timing. In TvT, the main difference between this build and the sort of thing you want to play is the presence of the second Tech Lab, which I would recommend swapping for a Reactor if you play this TvT. It's going to be very vulnerable to Siege Tank all-ins because of how the add-on timings work, although it will completely shut down Banshee cheese due to the E-bay timing. Again, while you CAN play a TvT bio style using this build, it has to change so much to optimize for it that you might as well be doing a different build (for example, a Thorzain-style 2x gas with 2 in each to maximize minerals while getting all the necessary infrastructure).
Thanks for the response. I see what you mean about other builds being better but the 1raxFE 2 gas build I was using suffers from the same flaws (in tvz at least). I will definitely look into the Thorzain build but my multitasking (between army control and macro) is pretty poor any I'm afraid the builds you recommend will be too much for me currently.
Really appreciate the response
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Is this build still considered viable? This thread has been really inactive for over 6 days, that's why im curious.
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On July 13 2012 05:22 Thylacine wrote: Is this build still considered viable? This thread has been really inactive for over 6 days, that's why im curious.
I'm hoping it's inactive because people are using it and there's nothing too much to add. :D
I've seen it used frequently in pro streams as well as tournament matches, myself. I run this build almost every single TvP I get on ladder, and Protoss is by far my strongest matchup right now (usually hovering between 65-70%). I've seen no direct counter builds to this that aren't beaten by good scouting, game sense, and appropriate army control. While this build doesn't give you an auto-win edge, it gives VERY good chances to win if you outclass your opponent by even a little. Think of it like a closed-position opening in chess. While the fireworks aren't necessarily there because of the solid-ness of the play, the very best players can make magic happen.
As of right now, the strongest two responses I have seen to this build are: 2-base fast Colossi preparing to take a third, and Parting-style 3-Nexus with lots of Sentries and as quick as Storm as possible while maintaining defense. Unless the Protoss player gets VERY lucky, DTs almost auto-lose to this, and 4-6 Gate attacks are a joke as long as your scouting and preparation are decent.
In short, it's solid, it works, and there's no reason to ditch it even if you find something a little bit to more liking. This is the perfect build for a game 1 or 2 of a Best-of-X when you need to play a solid macro-style game that squeezes your opponent in a python grip of perfect play.
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I use this build in both TvP and TvZ (I play bio vs zerg) and it is awesome.
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Sigh. I just can't make it work.
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It work´s really well for me. It´s just really good to have 5 rax this early. Your possibility to deny a fast 3rd is really high and you can even have a fast 3rd and fast ghost tech aggainst ht builds. Aggainst a toss with 2 gas i also do the build with 4 rax instead of 3 and i´m able to easily hold of every allin a protoss throws at me. I don´t see a reason why you should play the normal 3 rax with 2 gas build anymore.
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Yeah I understand how sick it is. I've seen the replays and it looks fucking good, but i've tried to make this BO work by playing with myself over 20 games while following this build but it always ends up with me having rly low supply and shit, I'm doing something really wrong, but it aint supply blocks, lol.
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On July 14 2012 03:42 Thylacine wrote: Yeah I understand how sick it is. I've seen the replays and it looks fucking good, but i've tried to make this BO work by playing with myself over 20 games while following this build but it always ends up with me having rly low supply and shit, I'm doing something really wrong, but it aint supply blocks, lol.
Upload a replay and I can take a look at it, I've had great success with this build
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On July 13 2012 12:26 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:22 Thylacine wrote: Is this build still considered viable? This thread has been really inactive for over 6 days, that's why im curious. I'm hoping it's inactive because people are using it and there's nothing too much to add. :D I've seen it used frequently in pro streams as well as tournament matches, myself. I run this build almost every single TvP I get on ladder, and Protoss is by far my strongest matchup right now (usually hovering between 65-70%). I've seen no direct counter builds to this that aren't beaten by good scouting, game sense, and appropriate army control. While this build doesn't give you an auto-win edge, it gives VERY good chances to win if you outclass your opponent by even a little. Think of it like a closed-position opening in chess. While the fireworks aren't necessarily there because of the solid-ness of the play, the very best players can make magic happen. As of right now, the strongest two responses I have seen to this build are: 2-base fast Colossi preparing to take a third, and Parting-style 3-Nexus with lots of Sentries and as quick as Storm as possible while maintaining defense. Unless the Protoss player gets VERY lucky, DTs almost auto-lose to this, and 4-6 Gate attacks are a joke as long as your scouting and preparation are decent. In short, it's solid, it works, and there's no reason to ditch it even if you find something a little bit to more liking. This is the perfect build for a game 1 or 2 of a Best-of-X when you need to play a solid macro-style game that squeezes your opponent in a python grip of perfect play.
I've been using this build a lot as well, largely because of this thread and the day[9] daily exploring it. I just had a question about how to deal with protosses who sit on sentries at their natural, stalkers on the drop lanes, and then get double robo with 5-6 collossi (as opposed to going for the quick third). I can upload the replay, if it would be helpful, but I felt pretty frustrated when the Protoss player claimed "Double robo, hard counter." I just want to be sure it was because I was playing poorly (low diamond), not because of the Protoss build. Has anyone else here seen a double robo response?
Edit: Regarding how Bomber deals with a two-base Collossi all-in, is the answer just bunkers and then position the army well?
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You can hold off collo allins with this build, when you are in a defensive position and start producing vikings after your 3rd or 4th medivac. With your first 2 you should push out and see what tech he is choosing and if you see collo start viking production and add a 2nd starport. With a good spread and correct viking positioning you can defend yourself and go for an easy win afterwards, because you have double starport + 5 raxes production.
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How do you feel about this vs Double Forge styles but incorporating a faster colossus? I usually have 1/1 /w my first colossus /without range upgrade at about 10:50, so with enough force fields, I should be able to keep the front attack away until then. Also, I always hover stalkers in main until I'm feeling safe from drops.
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Regarding double robo, you should be able to scout that very easily. Like the build says, drop whatever tech is needed as you move - i.e. second Starport in case of double robo. With the five earlier rax, plus getting a second Starport and cranking Vikings, he'll be WAY behind if he sticks on Colossi and doesn't either all-in or grab a third as quickly as possible. Build your Bunkers, hold off the one huge attack, and play out your advantage.
Re: the double forge question... I inherently mistrust any opening that doesn't go for either Sentry defense or heavy pressure as a countermeasure to FE bio play, but I can't be sure. It seems risky but okay. My caution would be that double ups and Colossi will not leave you enough gas to do the necessary tech-switch if he gets Vikings promptly, so manage that midgame phase very carefully.
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On July 05 2012 06:41 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 04:59 ff7legend wrote: How would u react to early HT play with this build..? when would u squeeze in a ghost academy or do you even need one? Xertion has good advice. Let me also add this: When you're moving out the first time, you should be doing it in concert with a scouting Factory. If you see NO Colossi (notwithstanding a possible hidden Robo Bay), and at least one Forge, you can actually already drop your Ghost Academy, because he's more likely to go Templar with a primarily Gateway army. Sometimes you can get a read on this as early as 7-8 minutes, and already be planning when to drop the Academy. The logic behind this is that a Protoss that fast expands and doesn't get fast Colossi BUT gets 1 or 2 Forges for upgrades MUST be relying on Sentries and some mix of Gateway units very heavily, otherwise he dies straight up to a normal bio push. Therefore, it's more consistent for him to go into Templar before Colossi, which means you can preemptively get a Ghost Academy and be forestalling any HT play while you take your third. Possible scouting tells for HT play even if you don't see the Templar Archives: - 5+ Gates and an early third - early double Forge with no Robotics Bay - no Observer spotting in your base and no Gateway all-in (this is a BIG one, because 99 times out of 100, they really want that advance warning of your attacks; if they don't have one anywhere you can bet that gas has gotten turbo-dumped into something else more pressing, like Storm) Thanks for writing this great guide! i'm having some troubles with early HT play. When i arrive toss's base i saw 3-4 HT and tons of zealots with storm ready. toss doesn't have a third. With his defensive position, if i push up the ramp i will got storm in a clump. Also he has 1 HT ready for feedbac in his main. Should i just go home in this case? i found it not effective to fight against this without ghosts.
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Using this build I've experienced a lot of trouble with blink and warp prism allins. Because you are spending so much on infrastructure and bunkers, and you only really have marines and scvs for a long time, pressure the nullifies your bunkers is really hard to hold off. Especially on maps like shakuras, I always seem to lose to these allins. Any advice?
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On July 27 2012 00:50 -Aura- wrote: Using this build I've experienced a lot of trouble with blink and warp prism allins. Because you are spending so much on infrastructure and bunkers, and you only really have marines and scvs for a long time, pressure the nullifies your bunkers is really hard to hold off. Especially on maps like shakuras, I always seem to lose to these allins. Any advice?
-If you scout 1 base 2 gas, get more Marauders than you would normally while delaying Medivacs a bit. -Build at least 1 bunker in main and 1 bunker in your natural. Keep SCV's ready to repair in case of blink/warp in in your main. -Don't delay Stim if you think he's going Blink, but if you think he's going for 4Gate WP then get a fast Combat Shields, 10 HP means 1 more Zealot/Stalker shot that your Marines survive, which is a lot early on.
-Against 4Gate WP you can push out as soon as you have Medivacs+Stim and kill him, but if you didn't snipe the prism keep some units in your base. -I don't know about against Blinkstalkers, theorycrafting maybe a Marine drop to kill Probes while defending at home? I do know that it's common to transition into Stalker/Colossus after going Blinkstalkers all-in if it doesn't outright kill you, so going Marauder/Viking/Medivac straight away with only a few Marines is pretty good. Don't get a second E-bay unless you took very little damage, you can't afford the gas.
Edit: Also, don't get a reactor vs Blinkstalkers until after you stabilize, you need the Marines and it's expensive!
A replay would also be nice if you still have trouble.
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On July 27 2012 01:41 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 00:50 -Aura- wrote: Using this build I've experienced a lot of trouble with blink and warp prism allins. Because you are spending so much on infrastructure and bunkers, and you only really have marines and scvs for a long time, pressure the nullifies your bunkers is really hard to hold off. Especially on maps like shakuras, I always seem to lose to these allins. Any advice?
-If you scout 1 base 2 gas, get more Marauders than you would normally while delaying Medivacs a bit. -Build at least 1 bunker in main and 1 bunker in your natural. Keep SCV's ready to repair in case of blink/warp in in your main. -Don't delay Stim if you think he's going Blink, but if you think he's going for 4Gate WP then get a fast Combat Shields, 10 HP means 1 more Zealot/Stalker shot that your Marines survive, which is a lot early on. -Against 4Gate WP you can push out as soon as you have Medivacs+Stim and kill him, but if you didn't snipe the prism keep some units in your base. -I don't know about against Blinkstalkers, theorycrafting maybe a Marine drop to kill Probes while defending at home? I do know that it's common to transition into Stalker/Colossus after going Blinkstalkers all-in if it doesn't outright kill you, so going Marauder/Viking/Medivac straight away with only a few Marines is pretty good. Don't get a second E-bay unless you took very little damage, you can't afford the gas. Edit: Also, don't get a reactor vs Blinkstalkers until after you stabilize, you need the Marines and it's expensive! A replay would also be nice if you still have trouble.
Thanks. The problem is that even with a bunker in the main and 2 in the natural I don't have enough units. Once he's in the main there is no one position that can keep him from gjust going around the bunker and killing addons or supply depots. If I leave the bunker and attack him with all my stuff he will fight while saving low health stalkers with blink, knocking down my unit count. Since he doesn't lose stalkers but I am losing units, AND he continues to warpin more stalkers, it snowballs into a situation where he can just straight up kill my bunkers. I'll get you a replay when I get the chance.
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I watched all of the replays and bomber sent out 10-15 marines to the watch tower at around 7:00? Should we do this? he lost to MC in a one of the games because of this though.
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Guys, I'm using this build and it's very nice. What I normally do is push when 2 medivacs come out at around 10:30 ish. By this time I normally have 4-5 marauders 30 ish marines and 2 medivacs. However I have trouble with 2 base colossus allin. Protoss can have 2 colo with thermal lance plus gateway units with a few sentries, zealots and stalkers at your front door, by the 10-11 minute mark and I just don't see how you can defeat that force with yours. What's the best response ? How do you scout 2 base colo allin ? I feel like bunkers won't cut it because they can be fired at from long range. You won't have vikings because you made 2 medivacs. Thanks
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On August 08 2012 18:40 djtopa wrote: Guys, I'm using this build and it's very nice. What I normally do is push when 2 medivacs come out at around 10:30 ish. By this time I normally have 4-5 marauders 30 ish marines and 2 medivacs. However I have trouble with 2 base colossus allin. Protoss can have 2 colo with thermal lance plus gateway units with a few sentries, zealots and stalkers at your front door, by the 10-11 minute mark and I just don't see how you can defeat that force with yours. What's the best response ? How do you scout 2 base colo allin ? I feel like bunkers won't cut it because they can be fired at from long range. You won't have vikings because you made 2 medivacs. Thanks
At 10 minutes? Can you post the replay?
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On August 08 2012 19:13 kranten wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 18:40 djtopa wrote: Guys, I'm using this build and it's very nice. What I normally do is push when 2 medivacs come out at around 10:30 ish. By this time I normally have 4-5 marauders 30 ish marines and 2 medivacs. However I have trouble with 2 base colossus allin. Protoss can have 2 colo with thermal lance plus gateway units with a few sentries, zealots and stalkers at your front door, by the 10-11 minute mark and I just don't see how you can defeat that force with yours. What's the best response ? How do you scout 2 base colo allin ? I feel like bunkers won't cut it because they can be fired at from long range. You won't have vikings because you made 2 medivacs. Thanks At 10 minutes? Can you post the replay?
Kranten, here is my replay.
TvP 2 Base Colossus allin
I had a few supply blocks, but I think my macro up to the 10 minute mark is not terrible. I didn't scout however. My engagement was horrible. I should have waited for the medivacs before engaging. But I feel that I won't have time till the 2 vikings come out. Any ideas ?
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On August 10 2012 06:23 djtopa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 19:13 kranten wrote:On August 08 2012 18:40 djtopa wrote: Guys, I'm using this build and it's very nice. What I normally do is push when 2 medivacs come out at around 10:30 ish. By this time I normally have 4-5 marauders 30 ish marines and 2 medivacs. However I have trouble with 2 base colossus allin. Protoss can have 2 colo with thermal lance plus gateway units with a few sentries, zealots and stalkers at your front door, by the 10-11 minute mark and I just don't see how you can defeat that force with yours. What's the best response ? How do you scout 2 base colo allin ? I feel like bunkers won't cut it because they can be fired at from long range. You won't have vikings because you made 2 medivacs. Thanks At 10 minutes? Can you post the replay? Kranten, here is my replay. TvP 2 Base Colossus allinI had a few supply blocks, but I think my macro up to the 10 minute mark is not terrible. I didn't scout however. My engagement was horrible. I should have waited for the medivacs before engaging. But I feel that I won't have time till the 2 vikings come out. Any ideas ?
If you look at the Bomber replays, the game on Ohana illustrates how to deal with this. The thing with the Colossus all-in is that it needs to hit with 2-3 Colossus, which usually hits at about 11-12 minutes if everyone is properly macroing. Notice in the Ohana game that Bomber keeps all of his initial Bunkers until he's sure whether or not he's facing an all-in. Once he sees the Colossus play, he keeps his 2 Medivac force in the field, gets more Bunkers, and Vikings. He barely finishes the Bunkers in time, and as the all-in hits, Bomber hits him from behind with the Medivac force, taking out all the Colossi. Once that's done, it doesn't matter how many gates the Protoss has, he can't break the four Bunkers plus continuous reinforcements and Medivacs, and then Bomber is so far ahead that it's GG.
If the Protoss moves out earlier than 2-3 Colossi (say with just 1), your macro (if done properly) should mean you have enough Marine/Marauder to focus down the threatening unit and clean up the rest with SCVs if need be. You'll be taking a third earlier or at the same time as him plus you've killed his big push, which means you'll be even or ahead in economy, and small numbers of Gateway units get mauled by MMM. There's almost no way for the Protoss to win that situation if you play it out properly.
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hey ive been useing this build for a long time and i still have some problems with protoss i need to scout more so i was wondering if there were any scan timings as it chould be really nice for me to know
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i saw the day9 daily about this build, and the only reason bomer is getting his second gas later, is because otherwise he can not afford to morph is command center on the natural to a orbital command without either skiping the bunker or cutting anything.
that is the reason, i know day9 was talking like 1 hour how great this build is and how smart it is to delay that gas, and even did some maths about how much extra minerals he gets for this and so on.....
but trust me, the only reason he does it is because it would delay his economoy slightly....so overall, just a tiny little adjustment to the most standard build in tvp out there, nothing new, nothing revolutionary
i mean no where near does he get 300 extra minerals (for 4/5 th barracks) by delaying that secodn gas.
The really smart thing is to get this 4/5 th barracks up so early. it doesn t matter too much how fast you get your second gas, you could also get it earlier and then put ouf 1 guy ouf of each gas to only have 4 scvs mining, this will allow you a faster stim and starport while still getting some extra minerals, which help to get the 300 minerals for the extra barracks....all just slight variations. but i like the 2 guys mining at each gas.
as well you should take into consideration that the delayed stim and medivacs can be very taff because there are certain timing pushes that hit exactly around the time where your stim usually finishes (like a 6 gate for example or immortal sentry pushes and some mass gate warpprism play where he warps in tons of zealots in your main), having stim or not having stim, can decide about win or loose there sometimes, as well can the delayed starport hurt you if your facing a 2 base colosi all in....just saying this should be mentioned....doesn t meant hat build overall is not good ( i use it most of time, with some little personal adjustments)
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On September 10 2012 09:44 uzushould wrote:
The really smart thing is to get this 4/5 th barracks up so early. it doesn t matter too much how fast you get your second gas, you could also get it earlier and then put ouf 1 guy ouf of each gas to only have 4 scvs mining, this will allow you a faster stim and starport while still getting some extra minerals, which help to get the 300 minerals for the extra barracks....all just slight variations. but i like the 2 guys mining at each gas.
as well you should take into consideration that the delayed stim and medivacs can be very taff because there are certain timing pushes that hit exactly around the time where your stim usually finishes (like a 6 gate for example or immortal sentry pushes and some mass gate warpprism play where he warps in tons of zealots in your main), having stim or not having stim, can decide about win or loose there sometimes, as well can the delayed starport hurt you if your facing a 2 base colosi all in....just saying this should be mentioned....doesn t meant hat build overall is not good ( i use it most of time, with some little personal adjustments)
I think you're overlooking some of the importance of the late 2nd gas: does it give you 300 extra minerals? Maybe not, but what it CAN permit is a second Bunker earlier on that doesn't force as big a deviation in your build (for example if you get 4-gated, 3-gate robo'd, or face a Blinkstalker all-in). Not only are you saving the 75 minerals to build the geyser, you get over 40 extra minerals per minute from the SCV that isn't building that Refinery. Add to that the fact that if you get that later gas, you can start your E-bay nice and early because you are constantly building SCVs and getting even more ahead on mineral outcome, and you can deflect DTs with ease by Turrets. Think of it this way: you gain the initial bonus of a little over 40 minerals per minute from the extra SCV that isn't building the Refinery, plus, your mineral outcome keeps increasing as you build SCVs out of 2 bases. That easily adds up to a spike of minerals that permits the early E-bay, a well-timed Factory, and other things.
At this point, I've played well over 100 games using this build, and in my personal experience, adjusting things like the refinery timings actually throws off a bunch of other small things in the build like when you can get the E-bay, etc. Your Stim is not delayed enough to matter if you are scouting properly (I've held many 6-gate attacks with this build, ditto for Immortal/Sentry plays) for the common all-ins. If you want a great example of how this build SHOULD deal with a 2-base Colossi all-in, check out the Ohana game versus Squirtle in the guide. All Bomber needs is the cue of no third and the flash of a Colossus, and he starts extra Bunkers, grabs as many Vikings as possible, a second Starport for reinforcement, and proceeds to crush the attack with strong frontal defense and a flank from the back.
Not to say that adjusting isn't valid! You should feel free to adjust however works best for you; however, this guide is going to remain about Bomber's specific build (which, if anyone saw IEM, has not changed in the slightest in the past few months), and so it will continue to be 1 gas initially, delayed 2nd gas.
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if you take the normal 1 rax fe with 2 gas and the bomber ones, it is possible to hold everything of with both of them, so its not a question if you can hold a 6 gate in perfect circumstances where you scout it and be 100 % prepared.
i just wanted to point out that the delayed stim can cause some problems in certain circumstances, as well as the delayed factory
and you will build scvs constantly with both builds, so i don t know why you think you ll gain an advantage in eco if you delay the gas at all.
it doesnt matter what expand you play, if you see him 6 gate or 3 gate pressure or colos all in, you should either way be able to hold it and be ahead after.
The question is more what is bomber trying to archive and where is he cuting corners? The answer is, he delays his stim and medivacs for a better production a little bit later on, THAT is the important point. If you think about it, you ll see that his agression starts a little bit later but will be stronger. So where could this be good or bad, well if hes goin colossi the stronger but later agression is probably better more often then not. But if you for example try to hit a timing to put on the agression on the toss before he finishes his storm, the earlier agression can be better.
The thing is, bomber knows his opponents, and has an idea what they will play a lot of the time, so he can specificly use this build to punish a toss goin for storm for example.
what i m trying to say, this build is not overall better then the usual 1 rax fe, you can just archive slightly different timings, and that, if used correctly, can be VERY strong. But this is just so deep we will never be able to get and advantage out of this on purpose. What i m trying to say is, on ladder against rnd players it won t make much of a difference, sometimes this sometimes other bos are better to counter what your oponent is doin, its kinda a question of luck, as i say, this build is overall not "better" then the usual one, just in certain cases it is (just like the normal 1 rax fe is)
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This build helped me a lot ... in ways I didn't expect. I've begun using it with slight modifications against Zerg, and my winrate has shot up to 55% from 20%. However, my winrate versus protoss went from 50% down to 30%.
I feel the main problem is that I have NO WAY of harassing Protoss early on, which means they will be sitting there with 1stalk, 1sent, 1zeal macroing like crazy, and I can't do anything about it. By the time 10:00 hits, when I have medivacs out, they have a 3rd base and either coloss/storm/charge and I'm just starting to get marauders...
Each protoss opponent I ask advice from says I didn't harass enough, with drops... but each time I drop, it seems a couple stalkers around the base or high templar with feedback stops it.
I feel my old 2 rax (reactor before tech) with a 7:00 stim timing push did better than this build, even though it still had a poor win rate.
Any idea how terran can harass early on?
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On September 17 2012 02:36 RukKus wrote: This build helped me a lot ... in ways I didn't expect. I've begun using it with slight modifications against Zerg, and my winrate has shot up to 55% from 20%. However, my winrate versus protoss went from 50% down to 30%.
I feel the main problem is that I have NO WAY of harassing Protoss early on, which means they will be sitting there with 1stalk, 1sent, 1zeal macroing like crazy, and I can't do anything about it. By the time 10:00 hits, when I have medivacs out, they have a 3rd base and either coloss/storm/charge and I'm just starting to get marauders...
Each protoss opponent I ask advice from says I didn't harass enough, with drops... but each time I drop, it seems a couple stalkers around the base or high templar with feedback stops it.
I feel my old 2 rax (reactor before tech) with a 7:00 stim timing push did better than this build, even though it still had a poor win rate.
Any idea how terran can harass early on?
Even if Protoss goes for a super quick third base, they cannot macro up BOTH the high tech units and the unit count that they might want. Watch the Bomber/MC game on Entombed in the OP: MC goes for a sub-5:00 third base, and all Bomber does is push with 4 Medivacs and a super heavy count of Marine/Marauder, and he rolls him.
Remember that this build gets a relatively quick third and a very high amount of units. Although a Protoss who goes for a sub-5:00 third will have a good economy, it's very hard for him to get up enough Gateway units to survive a heavy midgame push. As you take your third, keep adding Barracks, and throw down whatever tech is necessary. If the Protoss is Gateway/HT, grab Ghosts, and just deny any fourth base. Ditto for Colossi, except throw down the extra Starport and get Vikings first instead of Ghosts.
This style of play is macro-oriented, and designed to put pressure on Protoss thirds via frontal attacks, and prevent a fourth base from going down. Although 'harassment and drops' used to be the name of the game in TvP, it's not as much of a necessity anymore. You get so many Barracks so fast with this build that you can simply keep macroing and (assuming you engage correctly) start to take fights with Protoss if you have the necessary tech.
The biggest piece of advice I would give to any Terran player trying this or similar styles is to develop patience. If you don't have any Vikings and see a decent Sentry count plus 1 or 2 Colossi, just don't engage. Keep an eye on his economy and get the units you need. Ditto for High Templar. Engagements are NEVER a necessity until you are backed into a corner. Against Protoss, don't engage unless you have the composition or position that you really want.
You WILL lose games with this style as you try to adjust and get used to a more lategame, macro-heavy style of TvP because engagements are so important. Try not to get frustrated and study the replays to see where the losses are coming from. No EMPs hit? Did you scout the tech choice? Fast third base that you didn't target with a frontal attack? Remember not to charge in, assuming Stim + Medivacs will get everything done.
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A note regarding the update to the guide:
In my continued attempt to climb the ladder, I'm paying more and more attention to how I execute my builds and looking for minute differences in how I and the pros play. In these explorations, I discovered that I was consistently behind about 15 seconds where I could have been in dropping Barracks 2 and 3 and the first Refinery. I pored over many replays and went back to look at the tournament VoDs and the Day9 Daily that examined this build, and I discovered a crucial wrinkle (which is fascinating enough for me that it may warrant a future discussion post of its own): I was scouting with the SCV which builds Barracks #1.
As it turns out, Bomber does not (most of the time) do this, especially in matches with well-known opponents. It further turned out upon testing that if you DO scout with the SCV that builds your first Barracks, it is actually impossible to hit the 4:00, 4:15, and 4:30 benchmarks for the next set of buildings (Rax, Rax, Refinery) that Bomber can perform (without cutting either SCVs or Marines).
So, I investigated alternatives, tested several variations against AIs, and here are the results (the short version is found in the changes to the guide):
1. Scout with the SCV that builds the Barracks, OC + Marine on 15 supply.
This is the safest way to play, while still getting a very early CC at the natural, as you scout very quickly (for modern TvP) and will have an excellent chance to see something fishy like early 2 gas and possible 4-gate or DTs. The downside is that without cutting army or economy production, it is impossible to get the smoothest follow-up of infrastructure, which is Barracks @~4:00, Barracks @~4:15, Refinery @~4:30.
2. Don't scout until after infrastructure spending is started, OC + Marine on 15 supply.
This is a somewhat risky way to play. You have no specified scouting time, and you probably won't be able to sneak in an SCV to see something like DTs or a 4-gate coming unless you are a ninja. On the upside, you can hit all of the benchmarks for timing perfectly without missing a beat on SCVs, Depots, and Marines.
3. Scout with the SCV building the Barracks, making SCVs continuously to 16, and going OC on 17 supply after your Marine has started.
This is the middle ground. You still get a quick scout off, enabling you to be fully prepared for cheese. Your initial Orbital is delayed a few seconds, but the natural CC is not delayed by any significant fraction and the extra SCV mining back home helps. The result of this is that your second Marine is delayed slightly longer because you need that second Depot before you start Marine #2 and SCVs again; however, you also get to very closely match the timings that are the ideal for Bomber. In testing, it usually worked out to something like a 1-5 second delay, with the general average you can shoot for being 2 seconds (so, Rax@4:02, Rax@4:17, and Refinery@4:32).
I recommend option number 3 for the safety-conscious who also want the fastest possible Stim, Medivacs, and +1, while option #2 is obviously the true ideal execution of the build, but relies heavily on your knowledge that no shenanigans are heading your way.
Thanks for making this guide such a hit and also helping to make it better every time you post feedback!
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@Jazzman88 - Doesn't going for OC at 17 force you to delay your second marine by a lot (like 20 seconds) if you don't want to stop SCV production? This obviously depends of whether your scout dies or not, but if it is still alive I find that I must start SCV (18) before marine (2). This in turn is a difference between having 2 marines and 3 when a zealot/stalker poke comes in (I run into this a lot).
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On September 26 2012 02:43 crow_mw wrote: @Jazzman88 - Doesn't going for OC at 17 force you to delay your second marine by a lot (like 20 seconds) if you don't want to stop SCV production? This obviously depends of whether your scout dies or not, but if it is still alive I find that I must start SCV (18) before marine (2). This in turn is a difference between having 2 marines and 3 when a zealot/stalker poke comes in (I run into this a lot).
Yes, it does delay that Marine. However, the upside is that you get the faster double Barracks and Refinery while STILL getting a scout away and having a Bunker down on time. A Zealot/Stalker poke is rarely going to try and run past with a Bunker up and filled with some Marines, even if it's less than full, just because getting one or two SCVs is no compensation for losing all map control when the Zealot/Stalker get inevitably surrounded and killed.
Think of it like this: the times when the difference between having 2 Marines and 3 Marines causes you to lose is FAR less than the times a lack of scouting or delayed buildings causes you to lose. You have the 2 Barracks 15 seconds earlier with scout after Barracks + 17 OC, which means that the spike in Marine production plus your Stim research time comes comparatively earlier. I will definitely accept the risk of having only 2 Marines in the Bunker when the Zealot/Stalker shows up as compensation for a faster timing on my tech plus quicker ramp-up in production.
It's the same reason no one blind prepares for 6-pool anymore: it's such a coinflippy metagame build that auto-loses to a basic wall-in that no one needs to prepare for it unless it's a best-of-X with a particular dangerous and unpredictable Zerg player.
I would run some tests against a Protoss player if you're unsure. Tell them to chrono out a Zealot/Stalker poke and move towards your natural. See how many times (and on what maps) it actually becomes a problem. The only time I have problems with Zealot/Stalker pokes is when I spawn close positions on Entombed Valley and the Protoss 9-scouts me, following which I delay my Bunker. It's VERY hard to take advantage of a 1-rax FE with your first couple of units assuming the Terran plays correctly, because the correct decision for Protoss is almost always to take map control and expand (the Terran can't force out the Stalker with anything short of 6+ Marines or Marauders because they get kited to death). Watch pro players play - control (positional, map, and army) is almost always valued much more highly than killing a small amount of workers and units.
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Is this build still viable in the current metagame? What about Hots? I think it is but I'm quite bad vP.' If someone who is better TvP give me some advice on this would be great. =]
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Yes this build is still viable.
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this sounds like a sweet build, I can't wait to give it a try!
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Can this be used in hots?
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On March 14 2013 11:16 Ace1123 wrote: Can this be used in hots?
As someone that played the beta, here is my advice to you: Right now the game is the Wild West, There are no rules. So do whatever you want and whatever works, and eventually the meta will happen. In a more direct answer to your question: This push is still really good, however, due to the mothership core, you need to push the front, force a planetary nexus, drop the back force another and keep going w/ the super medivacs till the protoss snaps under the pressure
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