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Diamond level zerg here in WoL so I was wondering versus bio/window mine in ZvT (HoTS), I sometimes feel uncomfortable taking a third expansion [sometimes lose it/forced to cancel/other times terrans seem to be a bit greedy and delay their push making it easier to take] when a terran takes a quick CC of their own in the early game and follow up w/ mild pressure.
When would be the best time to take a third expansion versus a terran going bio with the possibility of them doing a widow mine/bio attack at around the 8 minute mark on farther away thirds that takes a bit of time to spread creep to such as Daybreak (and keeping it alive of course)?
Hi guys! I'm having a lot of trouble with the stephano style opener in ZvP. I am not able to defend my 3rd in time (usually against gate pushes or immo sentry). I take the 3rd directly at 18 supply after I got rid of the first probe If I take it later I'm not able to saturate it in time before the big attack. Are there any general things I can keep in mind besides the protoss' gas timings and are there some valid 2 base openers with a delayed 3rd that are more effective at dealing with the usual timing attacks immo sentry and 7 gates? Thanks in advance, awesome thread idea!
I am a mid Masters NA Zerg, and I feel the main reason for my difficulties in ZvT is because my third base goes up too late. However, when I drop it down around the 6-8 minute mark, I find it impossible to defend (as in I am forced to cancel it) against a hellion banshee combination, even with a 4 queen opener. Sometimes the Terran just masses up to 10 hellions/3 banshees and I simply cannot break that without producing roaches, but I see pro players are not forced to resort to this.
I'm a masters player having trouble in HoTs against protoss.
When they do a MSC + gate pressure at my third, I feel like I'm forced to overproduce units while they just recall back to their main, while expanding or teching behind it. It's hard for me to put on counter-pressure due to the defensive abilities of photon overcharge and due to over-producing units to not lose my third/fourth, I fall behind in the late game and lose alot. What should I do?
Hey, I'm a mid/high masters lately having problems with ZvP 3 bases allin. I always die to those pushes very very 1 sided, like the 3/4 colosi or immortal,archon mix. I have all my spines ready, infestors, corruptors, some roach ling army but yet I have no idea how to stop that push. Is there any method or ways to stop those pushes? Or should I start heavy aggression before the push starts?
On March 05 2013 00:44 RPR_Tempest wrote: I am a mid Masters NA Zerg, and I feel the main reason for my difficulties in ZvT is because my third base goes up too late. However, when I drop it down around the 6-8 minute mark, I find it impossible to defend (as in I am forced to cancel it) against a hellion banshee combination, even with a 4 queen opener. Sometimes the Terran just masses up to 10 hellions/3 banshees and I simply cannot break that without producing roaches, but I see pro players are not forced to resort to this.
Hey defending quality hellion banshee pressure is difficult with an early 3rd base and relying solely on queens, spines, spores and zergling speed. Often times, you'll find yourself in more trouble than in a good position - taking a super fast 3rd is extremely technical. I'll be honest here, the only times I manage to pull ahead with those kinds of openings were when the terran made a big control mistake or didn't apply that type of pressure. To me it feels like a bit of a coin-flip, and I at least just stopped doing early 3rd openings because of what you mentioned. The IPL DICE LucifroN vs Scarlett games were also typical examples of how frustrating and difficult/technical it can be to deal with this type of pressure with early 3rd lair-less openings.
I'd try using a 2-base tech play instead of rushing to a 3rd. Either 2-base muta, or 2-base roach. I prefer 2-base roach.
Miniguide: Grab natural. Gasless 4 queen opening. Double gas at 5 minutes. Drone up. 100 gas into lair. Start evolution chamber. Drone more. Add on 2nd evo and roach warren in front with a walloff (very important). Make more drones. Evo complete: Melee+Carapace. Optimal droning until 60 supply, then make overlords and roaches. If no cars, place 3rd asap when you've reached this stage. If hellions are present, wait for roaches and then take 3rd. If more than 4 hellions, make 2 defensive overseers in case of cloak and keep adding queens. The more hellions, the more likely that there will be more banshees.
From here you can keep massing roaches/queens to control the map and deal with the reactor hellion banshee play. You will be on 2-base for a while, but not to the extent that it will critically hinder your economy. Keep your units close to you and don't move off creep, you don't have to. Keep in mind you can also do the very popular and effective 2-base roach 'all-in style' push with this opening. Or, you can transition into infestor+drone and infestor+ling.
If you still want to be taking a 3rd early, it's probably best to take it even sooner than 6 or 7 minutes so that you get a good creep connection and more queens out early. You will probably want to put a spore in every base at 8:00 and wall-off with evolution chambers, baneling nest in your nat. Have a spine in your 3rd (about 6:45 maybe?), lingspeed in time (taking gas at 4:00 is good). Always make a few defensive banelings. In general, you need flawless positioning and always keep in mind that one small mistake will make it snowball out of control - that goes for both you and the terran player. Finding the line between defending and droning up is also very difficult. Commit too much to either, and you'll be in trouble. Oh, and I also lost pretty much every game to properly controlled 2fac reactor hellions. Defensive banelings is a must-have and even then it's sometimes difficult. You should also never fight off-creep against hellions, keep all your units close to you.
2-base play for a while will provide you with a far more rounded and safe transition into the midgame, so that's my best tip even if it might not have been what you were looking for.
I've seen a lot of people eschew baneling nest in favour of a gasless queen opening in ZvZ into roach. With the more powerful muta midgame coming in HotS I am thinking this style would be a better one to learn. What is the best and safest style to use/walloff to use? I am assuming that I can take a third with absolute impunity vs a ling/bane from my opponent once I have a handful of roaches and a spine out? What timing should I use for double gas in main (have been thinking around 5.00, 100 gas into Lair then spire, roach speed)?
I'm having huge troubles going up against muta in ZvZ. Everytime i play against muta, the games go this way :
I loose the mapcontrol, sometimes i save my 3rd, not often. Even if i manage to save my third, my opponent just outgreed me by taking a fast 4th. So when i go out with my upgrade advantage, infestors and roaches/hydralisks, i'm missing so much bank that i lose to his production.
If i try to go out with 1/1 roaches when i see that muta are coming, most of the time there are spines ready in his natural. I just lose all my roaches for nothing.
In standard roaches vs roaches, I have a nice win rate. But I lose most of my games against muta.
So i wonder, what is the best way to deal with muta, how to be almost always ahead despite losing map control ?
Please note that i hate muta vs muta so I really dont want to open mutalisks in ZvZ.
Hello, high platinum here, i was playing with a friend yesterday that was going to mech, and i get like 25 mutas at 12 min? maybe, i don't remember the exact time, but with that amount of mutas i destroyed his main (CC, scvs, tanks), then he tried to attack me with all he has left, die in the middle and surrender, i had 4 bases and in transition to brood lords. My question is this: Is this the best way to play against mech?, mech is sooooo much hard for me and this is the first time i win against it.
On March 05 2013 04:37 Sammyhain wrote: Have you tried fungal + blinding cloud combo? Ive used it a few times against terran players and I am curious why I have never seen it in pro matches.
There are no vipers in WoL. I know you have good intentions, but Might want to let the pros take this one.
On March 04 2013 23:18 GropheR wrote: Hello all! I'm high master, but i have some problems vs toss. Maybe you can help me!
How to play safe vs 1 gate expand into gate pressure/stargate play?
I have played quite a bit of HotS recently and I believe your question is best answered keeping in mind the new expansion's options, metagame and units. I personally have had a lot of success with the standard 15 Pool 15 Hatch and Gas as soon as your overlord scouts he's not fast expanding, that would be around 20 supply on most maps. Staying on 2 bases, you always want to have an overlord on his natural gasses and an overlord outside his main. Using these two overlords and a couple of lings you will be able to see if, at the 5.45-6.00 minute mark, he's going for a fast gateway all in. The answer for that is mass lings sniping the pylon, lings and spines, roaches, queens and spines, even lings and banelings work. If you scout it coming, you can hold it with pretty much anything, if it catches you by surprise, you're very likely not going to have enough of anything to hold it with pure units, so your best bet is to plant down 3-4 reactive spines and try to buy as much time as possible with your lings, still it's gonna be hard to hold it. As for stargate play, spores no longer require an evo chamber so even if you're caught completely off guard you should still be able to hold with queens until spores are up. Hydras received a buff and as far as I've tested Hydra/Ling is a solid but most importantly safe option against any two base play. You will obviously blind counter Stargate and Immortal play, you will also have enough time to react to a Colossi/HT follow up if your timings are crisp and you send in an Overseer as soon as your lair finishes. Hydras will also transition well into the new Roach/Hydra/Viper or my personal favourite, Hydra/Swarm Host. These two are the safest options I have experienced so far, obviously there are other more aggressive or defensive paths to take but the more you lean towards either one the more you'll be taking a gamble.
On March 04 2013 23:18 GropheR wrote: How to react safely to a fast 3rd protoss ? I usually like to go mutas, but if he go blink or double stargate phoenix i can't do enought damages.
Help me! :D
Ty all!
I like to go mutas too, assuming a standard 15/15 vs ffe scenario, you will want to always have an overlord over the protoss' third base and ideally a ling too, as soon as you scout he's going for a fast expansion, you have two options:
- You can aggressively tech up to anything, assuming you stay active with your scout to avoid 3 Nexus/10 Gate builds, which are however quite rare, there will be a big gap of time in which he won't be able to attack you. You will be able to get any tech out by the time he can be aggressive and then work towards your 4th base.
- You can aggressively expand and try to take him on his field, being greedier than he was. Given he won't be able to attack, you can take your 4th and 5th right as you see his third. This works exceptionally well with spire, obviously you will want to saturate all your gasses as soon as your hatcheries complete and invest all of it into mutas. You will be able to outrun him thanks to your 10 gasses. If you want to play mutas, you need to be aware of the fact that a few corruptors will be necessary against a decent phoenix count, but a reactive double stargate will not be able to pull out enough phoenixes to hold your muta number. As for blink stalkers you will want to be very active with your mutas and trade them as efficiently as possible for his stalkers. It's extremely hard to hold multiple attacks with just stalkers and if you catch a pack out of position he will likely lose a base. In that second scenario lings work well too, you don't necessairly have to mass them but you will have some minerals floating anyway, so a pack of lings on his third/natural while you hit his main with your mutas will be very hard to hold. I suggest +melee attack for your lings if you decide to use them, I personally don't think +capace is any good, that gas is better spent in mutas. On top of that, always keep an overseer in your pack of mutas to snipe observers, if he doesn't know where you're coming from you are a lot more likely to do damage when you fly in.
Hi Guys ! I play High Diamond on Wings of Liberty, my question is about both games. How do you set up a great flank ? What are your tips ? For example : Do you use shift ? I do that sometimes but my units often take a weird path which costs me a lot.
Do you use different control groups ? Most of the time I feel that i don t have enough time to create new control groups but the flank timing is harder to reach then.
More generally : how do you pull "army reorganizations" off ?" Example of what I do in ZvZ when I want to sneak roaches while I attack on the main front: I move on my roach timing then stop before engaging, then shift click on like 6 roaches pictures and redefine my control group, then move my new main army, then select those 6 who stayed, create control group number 2, and then do da thing.. It takes me sooo much time..
I asked that after seeing CJeffort vs MVPKiller today in up and downs, the guy attacked with roaches at different locations, it was very neat I was really wondering how he managed to do it.
On March 05 2013 00:45 Misacampo wrote: I'm a masters player having trouble in HoTs against protoss.
When they do a MSC + gate pressure at my third, I feel like I'm forced to overproduce units while they just recall back to their main, while expanding or teching behind it. It's hard for me to put on counter-pressure due to the defensive abilities of photon overcharge and due to over-producing units to not lose my third/fourth, I fall behind in the late game and lose alot. What should I do?
Hey Misacampo
Good Question! That's something I am having big difficulties with as well. Basically I think you have to accept the fact that in ZvP Protoss can always move out and put on pressure. There are two ways to deal with it in my opinion:
Either you need to invest into a strong mobile force pretty early on that can intercept Protoss armies early on, before it becomes too strong due to warp-ins. The nice thing about that is that you can also deny a fast third like that. Since Protoss can always recall you won't to avoid the fight to be taken to your side of the map I believe.
or
You defend as usual but now you have to hit the perfect amount of units, it's much more difficult for Zerg than before because of both timewarp and recall but I believe it's possible. Try to find ways to optimize your defense, find better arcs and see if you can improve you creep spread. Maybe try a spine or two if the timings work out.
After you defend the push well enough try to take a fourth and see if you can hit a nice timing with either Swarmhosts or roach hydra Viper. (Swarmhosts are good vs templar tech, while viper work excellent vs collosus)
Sorry I wish I could be more helpful than this, but I have yet to figure out most of these things myself in Hots.
On March 05 2013 00:44 RPR_Tempest wrote: I am a mid Masters NA Zerg, and I feel the main reason for my difficulties in ZvT is because my third base goes up too late. However, when I drop it down around the 6-8 minute mark, I find it impossible to defend (as in I am forced to cancel it) against a hellion banshee combination, even with a 4 queen opener. Sometimes the Terran just masses up to 10 hellions/3 banshees and I simply cannot break that without producing roaches, but I see pro players are not forced to resort to this.
Hey defending quality hellion banshee pressure is difficult with an early 3rd base and relying solely on queens, spines, spores and zergling speed. Often times, you'll find yourself in more trouble than in a good position - taking a super fast 3rd is extremely technical. I'll be honest here, the only times I manage to pull ahead with those kinds of openings were when the terran made a big control mistake or didn't apply that type of pressure. To me it feels like a bit of a coin-flip, and I at least just stopped doing early 3rd openings because of what you mentioned. The IPL DICE LucifroN vs Scarlett games were also typical examples of how frustrating and difficult/technical it can be to deal with this type of pressure with early 3rd lair-less openings.
I'd try using a 2-base tech play instead of rushing to a 3rd. Either 2-base muta, or 2-base roach. I prefer 2-base roach.
Miniguide: Grab natural. Gasless 4 queen opening. Double gas at 5 minutes. Drone up. 100 gas into lair. Start evolution chamber. Drone more. Add on 2nd evo and roach warren in front with a walloff (very important). Make more drones. Evo complete: Melee+Carapace. Optimal droning until 60 supply, then make overlords and roaches. If no cars, place 3rd asap when you've reached this stage. If hellions are present, wait for roaches and then take 3rd. If more than 4 hellions, make 2 defensive overseers in case of cloak and keep adding queens. The more hellions, the more likely that there will be more banshees.
From here you can keep massing roaches/queens to control the map and deal with the reactor hellion banshee play. You will be on 2-base for a while, but not to the extent that it will critically hinder your economy. Keep your units close to you and don't move off creep, you don't have to. Keep in mind you can also do the very popular and effective 2-base roach 'all-in style' push with this opening. Or, you can transition into infestor+drone and infestor+ling.
If you still want to be taking a 3rd early, it's probably best to take it even sooner than 6 or 7 minutes so that you get a good creep connection and more queens out early. You will probably want to put a spore in every base at 8:00 and wall-off with evolution chambers, baneling nest in your nat. Have a spine in your 3rd (about 6:45 maybe?), lingspeed in time (taking gas at 4:00 is good). Always make a few defensive banelings. In general, you need flawless positioning and always keep in mind that one small mistake will make it snowball out of control - that goes for both you and the terran player. Finding the line between defending and droning up is also very difficult. Commit too much to either, and you'll be in trouble. Oh, and I also lost pretty much every game to properly controlled 2fac reactor hellions. Defensive banelings is a must-have and even then it's sometimes difficult. You should also never fight off-creep against hellions, keep all your units close to you.
2-base play for a while will provide you with a far more rounded and safe transition into the midgame, so that's my best tip even if it might not have been what you were looking for.
First things first, congratz for your recent results (except when you last killed stephano on televised match coz i'm stephano fanboy haha) and thanks for taking time answering! It's super awesome
Considering what you just wrote, i found it super informative. I'm close to GM mmr in europe with 70% win zvt and i've been opening gasless third into 6 or 7 queens defense with a spine in my third asap and a blind roach warren in case I see too much helions. I'm never taking any damage from helions banshee with this build and i was always of opinion that the extra greediness makes up for later tech and investment in queens. Plus queens are worth ten times their mineral cost in the late game to snipe vikings/transfuse hive units. They also help against 2 base stim timings and things like that.
So i never understood why 6 queens gasless third fell slowly out of fashion at pro level. Is it simply because I didnt meet good enough terran yet? Is hellion banshee supposed to damage 6 queens? And by going speed or lair before third like most pro Z, dont you feel uncomfortably low eco? Especially against something like 3 OC opening?
On March 05 2013 06:17 v_lm wrote: Hi Guys ! I play High Diamond on Wings of Liberty, my question is about both games. How do you set up a great flank ? What are your tips ? For example : Do you use shift ? I do that sometimes but my units often take a weird path which costs me a lot.
Do you use different control groups ? Most of the time I feel that i don t have enough time to create new control groups but the flank timing is harder to reach then.
More generally : how do you pull "army reorganizations" off ?" Example of what I do in ZvZ when I want to sneak roaches while I attack on the main front: I move on my roach timing then stop before engaging, then shift click on like 6 roaches pictures and redefine my control group, then move my new main army, then select those 6 who stayed, create control group number 2, and then do da thing.. It takes me sooo much time..
I asked that after seeing CJeffort vs MVPKiller today in up and downs, the guy attacked with roaches at different locations, it was very neat I was really wondering how he managed to do it.
Thanks a lot !
If you're going to send small numbers from a big army (say 8 roaches from a big control group), you can take your entire ball and move-command it to a location. Second step is to shift-click units away from the control group - as many as you want for the runby. Then, save the main army control group again and move it somewhere back/safe. You can now select your runby group and move it to where you want, hotkey it if you like. I use this method a lot to deal with drops. A-move my entire army to the drop location, shift-click units away and save the group again. Then move the big army back to the center for example.
The other method might be more widely used. You can section off groups of your army, prepare them - hotkey if you like - and send them off while you keep the rest of your army in a big clump. After sending the runby off, you can select the rest of your entire army that's still visible in the screen by using ctrl-click on the units you want to have in it and save again. ctrl-shiftclick if you want to have different unit types in same control group (roaches and hydras).
When making the decision to become pro, how did you go about improving. Did you select one specific task (creep spread, inject, flanks, etc...) and then practice that one thing until mastery? Or did you try and ladder and improve all of these things collaboratively? Or did you just practice custom games vs specific races until that match up was solid? I am not really looking how to improve in regards to the current meta, but more so I would like to improve so that I can teach myself how to adapt and become better as a player even when the meta completely changes. Thanks! ^_^
On March 05 2013 08:31 sputnic wrote: Top Masters! :D
When making the decision to become pro, how did you go about improving. Did you select one specific task (creep spread, inject, flanks, etc...) and then practice that one thing until mastery? Or did you try and ladder and improve all of these things collaboratively? Or did you just practice custom games vs specific races until that match up was solid? I am not really looking how to improve in regards to the current meta, but more so I would like to improve so that I can teach myself how to adapt and become better as a player even when the meta completely changes. Thanks! ^_^
Always focus on your biggest and broadest losing trends and focus on your priorities. I used to track my wins and losses and these are some common Zerg trends:
Win trends: - Macro / Defense / Timing attack - This is the most common win reason for me. - Macro / Timing attack - Defense - Cheese - All-in (scouting-response) - All-in (blind) - Baserace - BO Win
Lose trends: - Defense failure / overdroning - Defense failures are by far the most common loss reasons for most people I'd imagine. - Underdroning / Defense failure - All-in failed - Unit composition - Blind play / Assumptions - Engagement - Impatience - BO Loss - Supply blocked at critical moment
Just some tips to get you going, think about what kind of player you are in regards to the trends listed above and what nets you your wins and losses.
As for match-ups, you don't want to waste your time on ladder with easy opponents and difficult ones in a different matchup. Use SC2gears Multi-replay analysis, take all your reps a given time backwards and check your Win% vs the different races. If you have disparities greater than 5%, work on those in custom games for a while, make it your mission. If your matchups are close (50%, 56%, 53% wins) you can ladder but make sure the difference doesn't increase and get worse.
When you figure out your losing trends you will see what you have to focus on. In general you should focus on one thing at a time in order of priority. Creepspread is good for example, but you always want to have your macro set before devoting all your brain to creep. Same goes for attacking and microing units - don't do it too much until you are comfortable with the things you have to do at home. There's always plenty to do, but even for most of us it's already too much by the 8-minute mark - so it's best to simplify things and focus on the very most important things such as nailing injects and spamming SD before you go crazy about having perfect overlord spread or omnipresent creep spread. Priority is everything, so try to get a structure you manage to follow.
As for macro, track your supply at different MM:SS moments in the game. If there has been no interaction between u and opponent, you should always try to break the record you have for yourself. Spamming SD and not getting supplyblocked and hitting injects is very important. A good zerg can hit 70 supply where a decent zerg will hit 57 at the same time, just by spamming SD more often and yeah.
Edit: The resource collection rate graph is also an invaluable tool - try and check how many % you were in relation to your opponent at a given time before a defense failure for example. It can easily reveal over -or- underextensions in droning.
Hello, mid diamond zerg here having some trouble reacting to gateway openings. Assuming I'm going for a 15/16 opening but they decide to pylonblock my natural I can take my third instead. However if they went for a gate cyber opening they could choose to 4 gate as a respone which seems impossible to hold with bases to far inbetween them. Should i cancel my third if I see a 4 gate and wait for lings to take down the pylon or maybe not take the third in the first place (which prob be slightly worse against FFE) or is it somehow defendable? Maybe going banes instead of roach ling would be have more success?
Secondly i wondered about going 14/14 against ppl known to gateexpand if thats really a better option? As i understand it 14/14 should prevent a 1 gate expo however i never managed anything but getting my lings killed when trying. If they open gate,cyber throw down a nexus and then after start forge & gate to wall of their natural together with zealot & stalker or sentry is there anyway i can delay their expansion? by the time i make a round of lings wall is always up and they started a cannon behind it. How should i open and react if I know my opponent will open gate cyber?
Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions in this forum. It's a pleasure to watch and study the top professionals. I've had most of these questions for a while and am hoping I will finally get them answered.
1) In a ZvZ on Ohana between Scarlett and Hendralisk in January 2013, Scarlett's first overlord sees Hendralisk's fast expo with 1050 HP and a drone long-distance mining, (scouting for her ov?), at 3:15 into the match. She then asks Hendralisk, "why hatch first if gassless? needless risk for a safe build ;d". How might Scarlett have rationalized that Hendralisk is without gas?
SCREENSHOT (She has seen the drone make one trip by the time she makes this comment)
2) What do top pros set the scrolling speeds to (mouse, keyboard and drag)? I've seen the options screens of Scarlett and Jaedong and I think they both use 50 mouse scroll, 20 keyboard scroll and 20 drag scroll. As of 21/3/13 TLO is using 79, 80 and 20.
3) What key binding would you recommend for Patrol? It took some searching, but I found out IdrA kept the default key binding, P. Scarlett uses a key on the left side of the keyboard, Z.
4) It's necessary to que overlords at different times, depending on the opening used. It depends on whether you make a queen or queens and spawn larvae with their energy and when you build hatcheries, not to mention whether larvae are blocked from spawning naturally when allowing three larvae to accumulate at a single hatchery or if you expect to free up supply somehow. Natural larva spawn in a different pattern then injected larva do, and injected larva spawn in abrupt groups that need to be used immediately or else they block the production of natural larva . How do you predict when to queue overlords when executing very differential openings, so as to avoid supply blocks as well as blocking the production of natural larva?
5) I only know one thing you absolutely need to use camera hotkeys for - evacuating harvesters as fast as possible by sending them to mine at another base. Less critically, I've seen camera hotkeys used for taking expansions very quickly. Are there any other critical actions that camera hotkeys allow for?
On March 04 2013 23:13 Merikh wrote: Assuming I ask the questions here? So I'll start.
Diamond level zerg here in WoL so I was wondering versus bio/window mine in ZvT (HoTS), I sometimes feel uncomfortable taking a third expansion [sometimes lose it/forced to cancel/other times terrans seem to be a bit greedy and delay their push making it easier to take] when a terran takes a quick CC of their own in the early game and follow up w/ mild pressure.
When would be the best time to take a third expansion versus a terran going bio with the possibility of them doing a widow mine/bio attack at around the 8 minute mark on farther away thirds that takes a bit of time to spread creep to such as Daybreak (and keeping it alive of course)?
Oh how I wish the beta wasn't down so I could use a few replays to show examples of holding bio + widow-mine attacks.
First of all let's go over some ground rules.
1) If the Terran hasn't expanded at 6:00 we shouldn't be taking a 3rd. 2) We should always be sacrificing an overlord around 6:00-6:30 to try and spot their production. Plan ahead so on each map you have a plan to get that overlord in position on time. If you see 3 barracks already complete with this scout then prepare for an early push 3) We should have roach or lingspeed + baneling tech ready no later than 8:00.
I recommend a standard 2-base muta opener, with a 3rd base that goes down about 7:30.
*hatch first *3 queens *6:00 lair + 2nd gas *6:45 3rd + 4th gas *@Lair complete: spire, bane nest + evo chamber *7:30 3rd base
7:30 is the key point in this build where, with good macro, you will be saturated on 2-base, taking a 3rd, getting upgrades and pumping lings. When you see the attack move out you can morph 6-8 banelings and 2 overseers, set up a flank and a-move their push for an effective cleanup.
If you prefer a roach-style simply delay your natural gases 30 seconds and take your 3rd on 7:00.
When engaging vs widow-mines work on pulling your front lings well forward to go even further than surrounding the enemy force. These front lings will attract the widow-mine shots and pull them away from your other units which are clumping to surround the bio forces.
On March 05 2013 00:17 Turbo.Tactics wrote: Hi guys! I'm having a lot of trouble with the stephano style opener in ZvP. I am not able to defend my 3rd in time (usually against gate pushes or immo sentry). I take the 3rd directly at 18 supply after I got rid of the first probe If I take it later I'm not able to saturate it in time before the big attack. Are there any general things I can keep in mind besides the protoss' gas timings and are there some valid 2 base openers with a delayed 3rd that are more effective at dealing with the usual timing attacks immo sentry and 7 gates? Thanks in advance, awesome thread idea!
Hi Turbo
I strongly recommend you work on getting 60 drones out by the 8:00 mark. Go through your replays and check what drone count you normally reach by 8:00, if it's already 60+ drones every game then good! If not just work on improving your early game macro!
1) Your 3rd base can go down on 18-22 supply, this should be about 4:00. Check that you aren't stocking up 3 larva trying to save money to place your hatchery. You want constant larva production. 2) Constantly tap through production cycles in the early-game. After every task you perform hit "Hatchery--> S --> D" and spam those drones. The faster you get your drones out, the stronger your economy. 3) Always leave a supply gap: As the game progresses you should get a steadily larger and larger gap between your actual supply and your cap. This is a safety buffer so that we don't get supply blocked. For instance at 50 supply you should have free supply to about 65. At 100 supply you should have free supply to 130. This is because the cost of getting supply blocked is far superior to the cost of building overlords a little ahead of time 4) Ensure you hit every inject for the earlygame
If in fact you are hitting 60 drones at 8:00 every game you want to focus on a few things. Sure you have 60 drones, but do you also have roach warren, evo chamber, macro hatchery, and 2 creep-tumors already down? You should have all of this down no later than 8:30, and usually by 8:00. Work on getting all of this AND 60 drones at 8:00
If you have no trouble with all of the above in a passive game, and it is in fact getting caught off guard that is your problem, focus on these scouting rules: + Show Spoiler +
1) 6:30 send overlord into main while overlord watching natural gas walks deep into the natural to scout there 2) Always scour your half of the map for pylons! 3) No gas on their natural by 6:45 means either a) very fast 3rd or more likely b) very fast timing attack: 8 gate, warp prism 7 gate etc. Cut drones at maybe 50-55 and get out a pack of roaches asap. 4) If you see no 3rd base by 8:00, cut drones at 60 and mass roach-ling. vs Immortal-sentry mass roach is the best option. If they go twilight or stargate tech, burrow is a great investment for holding timings and denying their 3rd base.
If you want to swap to a 2-base opener rather than refine this one, check out play by Bly, Life, Yugioh and Curious for zergs that have shown great 2-base ZvP openers in the past. Gl hf!
On March 05 2013 10:10 Incand wrote: Hello, mid diamond zerg here having some trouble reacting to gateway openings. Assuming I'm going for a 15/16 opening but they decide to pylonblock my natural I can take my third instead. However if they went for a gate cyber opening they could choose to 4 gate as a respone which seems impossible to hold with bases to far inbetween them. Should i cancel my third if I see a 4 gate and wait for lings to take down the pylon or maybe not take the third in the first place (which prob be slightly worse against FFE) or is it somehow defendable? Maybe going banes instead of roach ling would be have more success?
Secondly i wondered about going 14/14 against ppl known to gateexpand if thats really a better option? As i understand it 14/14 should prevent a 1 gate expo however i never managed anything but getting my lings killed when trying. If they open gate,cyber throw down a nexus and then after start forge & gate to wall of their natural together with zealot & stalker or sentry is there anyway i can delay their expansion? by the time i make a round of lings wall is always up and they started a cannon behind it. How should i open and react if I know my opponent will open gate cyber?
Edit: Talking about WoL
Canceling the third is normally something you will probably not want to do, but it's not the worst response either.
What I would recommend you do when scouting this and you already have your third down is keep a good eye on his natural. You should have an overlord in place and you can keep peeking at his nexus timing. If you do not see a nexus by 5 minutes I would expect a 4 gate to hit or some sort of tech. Normally it will be a gateway all in, but if you do not see a nexus or gateway units by 5:50 I would get a spore crawler down asap as this most likely means he is doing 1 base DT or 1 base stargate play.
Sacrifice an overlord to see this if you can, but if you don't see anything and it gets to 5:50 I would throw down a spore as normally means he is teching if he has not moved out yet.
For your 2nd question on the 14/14, if you know for a 100% fact that he is a gateway expander this is a fine opening, but I would personally go hatch first. If you do open 14/14, you will be ahead if the protoss does any sort of pressure with the fast lings to kill any fast zealot/stalker harass. If he does that zealot/stalker push and loses it while taking an expansion after 1 gate you should be able to force a cancel. If the protoss does not push with his first zealot/stalker you should not be able to force a cancel unless he mis micros or doesn't wall off properly.
If he does not do this and just sits back and takes it do not try to force it, it will most likely not work if protoss doesn't mis micro or anything. It is safer to just drone and take a fast third after you see him put down his nexus.
High master Zerg on NA server (WOL), my question here would be more for Snute (unless you play that style too) i am playing your gasless style in ZvZ but i am having a hard time to survive vs lings/banes all in's when they scout no gas. I know that i need to denie any scout but should i always make extras queens ? Most of the time i get 3 queens and double gas at 5:30, should i get my gasses a bit earlier to get roaches it cases of banes busts or spawn 2 more queens to get a 4 total queens in my nat ?
On March 05 2013 00:17 Turbo.Tactics wrote: Hi guys! I'm having a lot of trouble with the stephano style opener in ZvP. I am not able to defend my 3rd in time (usually against gate pushes or immo sentry). I take the 3rd directly at 18 supply after I got rid of the first probe If I take it later I'm not able to saturate it in time before the big attack. Are there any general things I can keep in mind besides the protoss' gas timings and are there some valid 2 base openers with a delayed 3rd that are more effective at dealing with the usual timing attacks immo sentry and 7 gates? Thanks in advance, awesome thread idea!
Hi Turbo
I strongly recommend you work on getting 60 drones out by the 8:00 mark. Go through your replays and check what drone count you normally reach by 8:00, if it's already 60+ drones every game then good! If not just work on improving your early game macro!
1) Your 3rd base can go down on 18-22 supply, this should be about 4:00. Check that you aren't stocking up 3 larva trying to save money to place your hatchery. You want constant larva production. 2) Constantly tap through production cycles in the early-game. After every task you perform hit "Hatchery--> S --> D" and spam those drones. The faster you get your drones out, the stronger your economy. 3) Always leave a supply gap: As the game progresses you should get a steadily larger and larger gap between your actual supply and your cap. This is a safety buffer so that we don't get supply blocked. For instance at 50 supply you should have free supply to about 65. At 100 supply you should have free supply to 130. This is because the cost of getting supply blocked is far superior to the cost of building overlords a little ahead of time 4) Ensure you hit every inject for the earlygame
If in fact you are hitting 60 drones at 8:00 every game you want to focus on a few things. Sure you have 60 drones, but do you also have roach warren, evo chamber, macro hatchery, and 2 creep-tumors already down? You should have all of this down no later than 8:30, and usually by 8:00. Work on getting all of this AND 60 drones at 8:00
If you have no trouble with all of the above in a passive game, and it is in fact getting caught off guard that is your problem, focus on these scouting rules: + Show Spoiler +
1) 6:30 send overlord into main while overlord watching natural gas walks deep into the natural to scout there 2) Always scour your half of the map for pylons! 3) No gas on their natural by 6:45 means either a) very fast 3rd or more likely b) very fast timing attack: 8 gate, warp prism 7 gate etc. Cut drones at maybe 50-55 and get out a pack of roaches asap. 4) If you see no 3rd base by 8:00, cut drones at 60 and mass roach-ling. vs Immortal-sentry mass roach is the best option. If they go twilight or stargate tech, burrow is a great investment for holding timings and denying their 3rd base.
If you want to swap to a 2-base opener rather than refine this one, check out play by Bly, Life, Yugioh and Curious for zergs that have shown great 2-base ZvP openers in the past. Gl hf!
Thanks Mate! That is what I call an elaborate answer. I'll try/train this asaply...
When becoming a better player, how do you go about increasing the efficiency of your mechanics? For example, how do you train your mouse accuracy to consistently be better, or how do you increase mini map awareness without sacrificing your other mechanics? Thanks in advance!
When becoming a better player, how do you go about increasing the efficiency of your mechanics? For example, how do you train your mouse accuracy to consistently be better, or how do you increase mini map awareness without sacrificing your other mechanics? Thanks in advance!
Kind of a tough thing to answer other then playing a lot. You have to remind yourself to look at the minimap more, keep injecting and creep spreading. It just takes a big focus. Something you could do for example is having a way to remind yourself of it,whether it's a sticky note on your monitor to literally just focusing on that.
A lot of it is just playing a lot and always trying to improve it. If you just play and aren't trying to improve you will never improve that area.
For example this is what worked for me. My creep spread wasn't to great and then one day I literally focused on my creep spread while still macroing. I spam a lot in the early game as there isn't a lot to do and I am always cycling through my hotkeys, so I started doing all that but making sure to creep spread before I started recycling through any of my hotkeys or something. Hard to kind of explain other then just reminding yourself.
Was awesome though for me once I got it into a habbit of it my creep spread has gotten really sick so something I would just force yourself to do.
Mouse accuracy comes with just a lot of playing. Idra for example has been commented as a player with very smooth mouse control and precision, you have to note that he was playing bw for 10-12 hours a day and plays a ton, that came because of a lot of playing and nothing special in that regard.
When becoming a better player, how do you go about increasing the efficiency of your mechanics? For example, how do you train your mouse accuracy to consistently be better, or how do you increase mini map awareness without sacrificing your other mechanics? Thanks in advance!
Kind of a tough thing to answer other then playing a lot. You have to remind yourself to look at the minimap more, keep injecting and creep spreading. It just takes a big focus. Something you could do for example is having a way to remind yourself of it,whether it's a sticky note on your monitor to literally just focusing on that.
A lot of it is just playing a lot and always trying to improve it. If you just play and aren't trying to improve you will never improve that area.
For example this is what worked for me. My creep spread wasn't to great and then one day I literally focused on my creep spread while still macroing. I spam a lot in the early game as there isn't a lot to do and I am always cycling through my hotkeys, so I started doing all that but making sure to creep spread before I started recycling through any of my hotkeys or something. Hard to kind of explain other then just reminding yourself.
Was awesome though for me once I got it into a habbit of it my creep spread has gotten really sick so something I would just force yourself to do.
Mouse accuracy comes with just a lot of playing. Idra for example has been commented as a player with very smooth mouse control and precision, you have to note that he was playing bw for 10-12 hours a day and plays a ton, that came because of a lot of playing and nothing special in that regard.
I realize this forum is for pros to answer, but, may I add something here? A professional player or perhaps it was Day9 or Tastosis, I can not remember, said that something which forces an increase in mini map awareness is to play without sound.
When becoming a better player, how do you go about increasing the efficiency of your mechanics? For example, how do you train your mouse accuracy to consistently be better, or how do you increase mini map awareness without sacrificing your other mechanics? Thanks in advance!
Kind of a tough thing to answer other then playing a lot. You have to remind yourself to look at the minimap more, keep injecting and creep spreading. It just takes a big focus. Something you could do for example is having a way to remind yourself of it,whether it's a sticky note on your monitor to literally just focusing on that.
A lot of it is just playing a lot and always trying to improve it. If you just play and aren't trying to improve you will never improve that area.
For example this is what worked for me. My creep spread wasn't to great and then one day I literally focused on my creep spread while still macroing. I spam a lot in the early game as there isn't a lot to do and I am always cycling through my hotkeys, so I started doing all that but making sure to creep spread before I started recycling through any of my hotkeys or something. Hard to kind of explain other then just reminding yourself.
Was awesome though for me once I got it into a habbit of it my creep spread has gotten really sick so something I would just force yourself to do.
Mouse accuracy comes with just a lot of playing. Idra for example has been commented as a player with very smooth mouse control and precision, you have to note that he was playing bw for 10-12 hours a day and plays a ton, that came because of a lot of playing and nothing special in that regard.
I realize this forum is for pros to answer, but, may I add something here? A professional player or perhaps it was Day9 or Tastosis, I can not remember, said that something which forces an increase in mini map awareness is to play without sound.
You can also play some games while only injecting using the minimap... this forces you to use it, hence you are getting used to using it ^^
I generally do ok against terran of my level. I have a question about the 2 factor hellion build.
When I lose its generally because I poorly deal with suicide hellions (packs of 6+, I can deal with 2-4 hellions ok) killing my drones at the midgame. Sometimes I bite the bullet and get roaches, but then I tend to overcommit to roaches which are weaker than lings.
1. Should I just blindly get a 3rd or 4th queen at the nat? 2. Spine crawlers seem to have mixed effectiveness against 6+ hellions. If I get a spine (or 2), where is the best placement? Behind minerals at natural? Between natural hatch and ramp?
Top master here. My question has more to do with how do you evolve as the metagame involves, specifically with the impending release of HotS in mind. I hate change, but I realize I need to deal with it, but how did you most effectively reprogram your play to better suite HotS (or any metagame change)?
I'm mid-high master zerg EU, and I have a ton of problems in ZvZ when my opponent goes ling infestor ultra. I feel like with his quick lings he can counter attack me very easily, and I'm afraid to move out of my base due to this. He also pressures me in the beginning with +1 carapace ling/bling which means taking a 3rd is harder then it should be. I know the ling player should be on the defensive, and yet it's me who's afraid to move out.
When ultras hit the field I feel like I can't do anything anymore, because they just chomp through my roach hydra like it's nothing.
Is there some sort of timing I should be hitting vs a player like this?
I'm mid-high master zerg EU, and I have a ton of problems in ZvZ when my opponent goes ling infestor ultra. I feel like with his quick lings he can counter attack me very easily, and I'm afraid to move out of my base due to this. He also pressures me in the beginning with +1 carapace ling/bling which means taking a 3rd is harder then it should be. I know the ling player should be on the defensive, and yet it's me who's afraid to move out.
When ultras hit the field I feel like I can't do anything anymore, because they just chomp through my roach hydra like it's nothing.
Is there some sort of timing I should be hitting vs a player like this?
Thanks a lot!
Ling Infestor Ultra is extremely hard to execute on the majority of the maps for the simple fact that it's incredibly hard to hold any kind of pressure with just lings, the majority of the gas goes into tech so you can only have so many banelings. A spine wall is necessary but that's only viable, as i said, on certain maps where your natural and third are easly connected and you hold em both without spreading static defenses too much, for example Entombed Valley. That said, the Ling Infestor player has to be aggressive so you don't move out and taking a third will be fairly hard. As for timings, anything involving upgraded roaches works:
- 2 Base Burrow 1-1 roaches, leave a few roaches behind and position em properly around the ramp or inbetween structures so they don't get surrounded. Attack when speed and burrow are about to complete and pay attention to your position, you don't want to get surrounded.
- 2 Base +1atk roach/baneling, leave a few banelings behind. That's my favourite, I attack as soon as roach speed finishes. Insanely hard to hold even if he has spines cause banelings work good on those.
- 2 Base 2-2 Roach timing, that requires crisp timings, you will hit almost on max and he'll likely have several spines and some infestors, you need to try to split your army and bait fungals, once out of energy you'll have an easy time running in. There's no way to hold 2-2 roaches with lings.
These are the ones I've tryed and they all work fairly well honestly, Ling/Infestor is quite rare cause these timings are extremely hard to hold on most maps. However, if you decide to go into the late game and manage to plant a third, you'll want to hit before Ultralisks are out, they basically hard counter any ground composition.
Me again. Though I generally play pretty standard (though i have been favoring 2 base vs toss because i've been losing to gateway pressure), every now and then I like to mix it up with aggressive early pool macro openings (7 pool vs toss, 9 pool vs zerg). My question is how do you go about standarzing timings once the game progresses into mid game.
For example, if I open 7 pool zvp and kill his forge/pylon but he defends properly with a cannon covering an extractor: 1) What should my lings do? Continue to try to harrass or ensure that he isn't going to throw down pylons and possibly a cannon at my nat (if he rebuilt forge) 2) When should I take gas if he expands? If he doesn't? 3) Should i still favor lair over speed, or should i now get speed first? 4) When are my gas timings? 5) Assuming he takes nat and walls it, how do i know when i should ovie sac/overseer scout? 6) ect.
On March 07 2013 21:41 _zesty wrote: Top master here. My question has more to do with how do you evolve as the metagame involves, specifically with the impending release of HotS in mind. I hate change, but I realize I need to deal with it, but how did you most effectively reprogram your play to better suite HotS (or any metagame change)?
How I did it personally was how much I was losing. I immediately started messing with ultras late game with vipers for example and roach/hydra zvp with vipers. I would mess with the new units and if I just kept losing I would make slight adjustments whether it be delay attacking, be more defensive, etc.
It took awhile to kind of figure out how to use swarmhosts as well as vipers, timings of when to get them,etc caused a lot of losses until I figured out good timings and stuff at least for the beta.
On WoL I am a mid-masters player (top 25) on both EU as NA, with a ZvT winrate of 56%. On HotS, I got stuck at top diamond (top 3) with a 32% ZvT winrate.
The MMM + hellbat/mines outright kill me. I can't possibly engage their MMM ball with ling/bling(/roach) and maybe some infestors, since the mines will go off and the hellbats take good care of lings.
I can't set the mines off prematurely with single lings, as the MMM ball is slightly in front of it and will snipe down any lone lings that try to set them off.
If I engage the MMM ball, they would retreat back to the mines, forcing me to fall back. The thing is, I will have taken casualties, he will have taken none.
They would take around 5-7 mines along and just plant them down, and slightly advance with their MMMhellbats.
I am a big fan of the two base 4 queen (no gas) opener, taking 1 gas at 5 min, and 3 more at 6 min. Going double melee upgrades ling/bling into ling/bling/infestor into ling/bling/ultra/infestor. I sometimes go a few roaches as well to fend off some earlier hellbat/helllion (drop pressure).
I keep my money low and my injects spot on, the problem really lies in the engagements. I just can't seem to find a proper engagement tactic, or possibly a composition that would work.
I could try going a bit more roach heavy with hydra support, adding in vipers for blinding cloud later, but I am not too sure of that. And because of the nature of the ZvT MMM gameplay, I find swarm hosts to be ineffective, as they will just start to exploit the immobility and their mobility.
Any insight would be great! I'm also an ex-warcraft III player so if the tactics consist of good 3-control group control, no problem :-)!!
On March 08 2013 20:01 kaluro wrote: This one is related to HotS.
On WoL I am a mid-masters player (top 25) on both EU as NA, with a ZvT winrate of 56%. On HotS, I got stuck at top diamond (top 3) with a 32% ZvT winrate.
The MMM + hellbat/mines outright kill me. I can't possibly engage their MMM ball with ling/bling(/roach) and maybe some infestors, since the mines will go off and the hellbats take good care of lings.
I can't set the mines off prematurely with single lings, as the MMM ball is slightly in front of it and will snipe down any lone lings that try to set them off.
If I engage the MMM ball, they would retreat back to the mines, forcing me to fall back. The thing is, I will have taken casualties, he will have taken none.
They would take around 5-7 mines along and just plant them down, and slightly advance with their MMMhellbats.
I am a big fan of the two base 4 queen (no gas) opener, taking 1 gas at 5 min, and 3 more at 6 min. Going double melee upgrades ling/bling into ling/bling/infestor into ling/bling/ultra/infestor. I sometimes go a few roaches as well to fend off some earlier hellbat/helllion (drop pressure).
I keep my money low and my injects spot on, the problem really lies in the engagements. I just can't seem to find a proper engagement tactic, or possibly a composition that would work.
I could try going a bit more roach heavy with hydra support, adding in vipers for blinding cloud later, but I am not too sure of that. And because of the nature of the ZvT MMM gameplay, I find swarm hosts to be ineffective, as they will just start to exploit the immobility and their mobility.
Any insight would be great! I'm also an ex-warcraft III player so if the tactics consist of good 3-control group control, no problem :-)!!
In my experience ling-bane-muta can hold this composition effectively, however it's very positioning and micro dependant. If you get forced into engaging from one angle in a choke it will be a very sad day for your banelings .
A safer option would be roach-speedbane. The general rule with engaging widow mines is that flanking is super important. Flanking was a great aid in WoL but because of widow mines it is now crucial in HotS. If you ensure you have overseers with each flank and spread your units you can a-move just like in WoL. The only real difference in control is manually grabbing the front lings from your force/forces and telling them to move right through or past your opponents force, hence pulling widow-mine shots away from the rest of your units.
So as long as you spread, flank and always have speed-overseers with your army you will be prepared for battle. Practice your ling micro to protect the bulk of your force and you will clean up these armies very effectively
Note: Hyun has been going roach-hydra-viper a lot on stream and has a crazy win-rate, so this could work too, though I doubt its effectiveness against turtling marine-tank players.
Is it worth it to research defense upgrades as zerg when you play vs mech ?
- I always make only the first upgrade (because I start it in my standard ZvT opening) but I think it's better to keep the 525/525 for units. From what I know and understand, all units will die in the same amount of tank shot or thor shot.. or am I wrong ?
Please if you have an opinion/answer, explain it clearly with facts, not ideas.
On March 08 2013 22:13 E.L.V.I.S wrote: Is it worth it to research defense upgrades as zerg when you play vs mech ?
- I always make only the first upgrade (because I start it in my standard ZvT opening) but I think it's better to keep the 525/525 for units. From what I know and understand, all units will die in the same amount of tank shot or thor shot.. or am I wrong ?
Please if you have an opinion/answer, explain it clearly with facts, not ideas.
Hey Antoine, I'd like to hear others opinions on this one myself.
Personally I do the same as you I swap to a focus on +ranged +melee and only add more carapace if the game progresses very far, for the same reason you stated. I think there's so much redundant damage from tank splash/thor shots that it doesn't make a major difference.
On March 09 2013 03:38 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: What is ideal lategame zerg composition versus :
1) a terran mech army with heavy raven support
2) (this one with reference to HotS) a primarily skytoss with a few collossi and templars in the mix.
1. I would go swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper it's very strong vs mech in general even verse heavy raven.
2. The best composition to fight that composition is swarmhost/hydra/ultra with a few vipers possibly but I normally do it without vipers cause I feel scared to make vipers when templar are on the field xD. No joke I have had pretty good success with this unit compositions and I don't think any other composition has a chance to kill that army.
On March 09 2013 03:38 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: What is ideal lategame zerg composition versus :
1) a terran mech army with heavy raven support
2) (this one with reference to HotS) a primarily skytoss with a few collossi and templars in the mix.
1. I would go swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper it's very strong vs mech in general even verse heavy raven.
2. The best composition to fight that composition is swarmhost/hydra/ultra with a few vipers possibly but I normally do it without vipers cause I feel scared to make vipers when templar are on the field xD. No joke I have had pretty good success with this unit compositions and I don't think any other composition has a chance to kill that army.
to the 2nd point:
queen, infestor, ultra, corruptor with 230/200 supply also stands a chance in terms of trading halfway cost efficient. although i feel vs both comps 5 immortals mixed in own it very hard ^^
First of all, thank you to all the pro's answering questions in this thread! Makes my zerg heart happy.
1550point hots master. ZVT question.
When one is deciding to do roach hydra play, I have practiced with several different Roach/Hydra/Viper openings. However, I dont knwo which one is the best atm.
Starting with any basic 4 queen builds:
1. Lair first --> doulble ups, ---> then roach speed (maybe burrow too). so all upgrades finish at the same time. Perhaps good for timings/ faster tech?
2. Double ups first ---> then lair. ---> then speed. Perhaps good for quicker 2//2?
Also: What are your thoughts on skipping hydra, so you can get faster, and more vipers? What scouting info would make any of you pro's decide which build order to be the most effective?
On March 09 2013 23:21 BuiBui wrote: First of all, thank you to all the pro's answering questions in this thread! Makes my zerg heart happy.
1550point hots master. ZVT question.
When one is deciding to do roach hydra play, I have practiced with several different Roach/Hydra/Viper openings. However, I dont knwo which one is the best atm.
Starting with any basic 4 queen builds:
1. Lair first --> doulble ups, ---> then roach speed (maybe burrow too). so all upgrades finish at the same time. Perhaps good for timings/ faster tech?
2. Double ups first ---> then lair. ---> then speed. Perhaps good for quicker 2//2?
Also: What are your thoughts on skipping hydra, so you can get faster, and more vipers? What scouting info would make any of you pro's decide which build order to be the most effective?
Thanks. EndOfLine
I'm not the most experienced in HotS yet but I would say double ups before lair. I know people who go lair first, but personally I find having the fast 2/2 is very useful as you'll have a really nice timing window where you have 2/2 while Terran is still 1/1. If you engage him at this point your army is super tough to defeat. I think you do need to get some hydras, the DPS and medivac prevention (however slight) is really useful.
On March 09 2013 23:21 BuiBui wrote: First of all, thank you to all the pro's answering questions in this thread! Makes my zerg heart happy.
1550point hots master. ZVT question.
When one is deciding to do roach hydra play, I have practiced with several different Roach/Hydra/Viper openings. However, I dont knwo which one is the best atm.
Starting with any basic 4 queen builds:
1. Lair first --> doulble ups, ---> then roach speed (maybe burrow too). so all upgrades finish at the same time. Perhaps good for timings/ faster tech?
2. Double ups first ---> then lair. ---> then speed. Perhaps good for quicker 2//2?
Also: What are your thoughts on skipping hydra, so you can get faster, and more vipers? What scouting info would make any of you pro's decide which build order to be the most effective?
Thanks. EndOfLine
I'm not the most experienced in HotS yet but I would say double ups before lair. I know people who go lair first, but personally I find having the fast 2/2 is very useful as you'll have a really nice timing window where you have 2/2 while Terran is still 1/1. If you engage him at this point your army is super tough to defeat. I think you do need to get some hydras, the DPS and medivac prevention (however slight) is really useful.
Generally, unless you're looking to hit a speed timing, always get double ups before lair. Suppy is correct here- to be safe, it is advisable to put 1 spore per mineral line (for detection versus Mines + ability to kill medivac).
The main question is when to get Hive honestly. Vipers are key for your defense, and if you can get them out before the terran's 2/2/1 (+2/+2 on bio, +1 for tanks) timing you'll be in a very good position in the game. Generally, try to time y our hive after hydra production has started - Just note that you will have to delay the terran while you get 3/3 and vipers.
In ZvP if P goes for pylon block(s) while going for nexus first instead of forge first, what is the proper response? This is for both WoL and HotS (if they are different).
I usually see pros go for forge first then pylon block so they can hold off any counters, not get delayed in tech, etc. However, I think that on larger rush distance maps (certainly for the current HotS map pool) it might be possible for Protoss to pylon block AND nexus first safely putting Zerg in an awkward position (do I counter or just take the economic hit?).
Assuming the optimal/safe thing to do as Protoss is to forge first when pylon blocking (letting it finish), how can I punish a Protoss that plays "too greedy" and nexus firsts while pylon blocking? Also, does the nexus timing matter in this (15 vs. 17, etc.)?
Also, what changes if they double block or gate block on top of a pylon block? I've seen the game on IPL5 Round 1 ToD vs. viOLet where ToD goes nexus first while pylon/gate blocking viOLet's natural and viOLet goes for a counter and manages to delay ToD significantly. I'm not sure what ToD was expecting (viOLet would scout that it was a nexus first as he was deciding to make additional lings or not vs. the pylon block) but on a map with a larger distance I think his wall would have completed in time to deny the lings entry into the nat.
On March 09 2013 23:21 BuiBui wrote: First of all, thank you to all the pro's answering questions in this thread! Makes my zerg heart happy.
1550point hots master. ZVT question.
When one is deciding to do roach hydra play, I have practiced with several different Roach/Hydra/Viper openings. However, I dont knwo which one is the best atm.
Starting with any basic 4 queen builds:
1. Lair first --> doulble ups, ---> then roach speed (maybe burrow too). so all upgrades finish at the same time. Perhaps good for timings/ faster tech?
2. Double ups first ---> then lair. ---> then speed. Perhaps good for quicker 2//2?
Also: What are your thoughts on skipping hydra, so you can get faster, and more vipers? What scouting info would make any of you pro's decide which build order to be the most effective?
Thanks. EndOfLine
I'm not the most experienced in HotS yet but I would say double ups before lair. I know people who go lair first, but personally I find having the fast 2/2 is very useful as you'll have a really nice timing window where you have 2/2 while Terran is still 1/1. If you engage him at this point your army is super tough to defeat. I think you do need to get some hydras, the DPS and medivac prevention (however slight) is really useful.
Thank you Suppy, and Thank you Glon. for your time! :D I shall re-adjust my build for 2//2, with hydra ----> hive
On March 06 2013 00:09 Levernz wrote: Hello TL & Pros
High master Zerg on NA server (WOL), my question here would be more for Snute (unless you play that style too) i am playing your gasless style in ZvZ but i am having a hard time to survive vs lings/banes all in's when they scout no gas. I know that i need to denie any scout but should i always make extras queens ? Most of the time i get 3 queens and double gas at 5:30, should i get my gasses a bit earlier to get roaches it cases of banes busts or spawn 2 more queens to get a 4 total queens in my nat ?
Thanks !!!!!
Ling-bane pressure is actually one of the worst responses vs. this style. The best response from your opponent is taking a fast 3rd. But it's still easy to lose to all-ins if you don't see it coming.
You will have to scout his natural mineral line or see for drones (or lack of drones) passing from the main to the natural. Use your overlords well. You definitely want to make 4 queens total if you sense that something is up, maybe even add a spine around 5-minute mark. If you want a more well-rounded approach, you can also try to use 1 extractor earlier (~4:50?) instead of 2, and use a ~5-minute roach warren if you're not feeling safe. 4 queens is recommended. Don't make exceptions from this unless you know that he's being extremely greedy or if you want to gamble.
The main core of your defense will be your queens, their position, transfusions and only a few roaches. Positioning is everything here: use minerals, chokes, simcity, etc. to your advantage. When you see the pressure coming, don't forget to start new queens since you will lose the ones you have for sure. If you hold without losses, you can always cancel the queens in production.
I don't think the defensive gasless-into-roach macro openings will be of much use in HotS, but I hope it helps anyway.
Hello guys, and first of all I'm glad you guys are helping out the zergs by doing this thread! I just got promoted into diamond (yey) and I really want to step up my group control, as I honestly think it's quite messy. So my question is, how do you set your CONTROL GROUPS and also what do you think is the most appropiate method to Larvae Inject. If you have changed any hotkeys, or think a layout is better I'd be really glad to know. Thanks for your time!
On March 11 2013 06:19 Xardov wrote: Hello guys, and first of all I'm glad you guys are helping out the zergs by doing this thread! I just got promoted into diamond (yey) and I really want to step up my group control, as I honestly think it's quite messy. So my question is, how do you set your CONTROL GROUPS and also what do you think is the most appropiate method to Larvae Inject. If you have changed any hotkeys, or think a layout is better I'd be really glad to know. Thanks for your time!
I would very much want to know the answer to this a well !
On March 11 2013 06:19 Xardov wrote: Hello guys, and first of all I'm glad you guys are helping out the zergs by doing this thread! I just got promoted into diamond (yey) and I really want to step up my group control, as I honestly think it's quite messy. So my question is, how do you set your CONTROL GROUPS and also what do you think is the most appropiate method to Larvae Inject. If you have changed any hotkeys, or think a layout is better I'd be really glad to know. Thanks for your time!
You really just need to experiment and find out for yourself what works! What I did was look at my favorite players in BW (I think I copied mostly from Savior) and started to use his, but all you need is to find out what works for you.
Just for reference, these are my hotkeys organized somewhat chronologically: 1 = scouting drone // main army 2 = first scouting overlord // creep spreading queens // mutalisks // spellcasters (most people have mutalisks on hotkey 1 though it seems) 3 = first queen // spellcasters 4 = second queen // air army (broodlord, corrupter) 5 = all hatches 6 = natural hatch 7 = third hatch 0 = miscellaneous, often scouting overseers
F1 = main F2 = natural F3 = third F4 = fourth
And I use F-key hotkeys to inject. I find it to be the most reliable way to inject. Another popular method is the tab method where it returns to your nearest base, and you have all your queens on one hotkey. That method can be unreliable though if you mess it up, as all your queens will start running everywhere. But people who do use it are used to it that it seems fine as well. Again it's really up to you to determine what methods fit you best!
I noticed this trend among P players that they usually dont scout or scout late with their probe. When I dont see probe normal timing I assume its gateway expand and go hatch, pool opener. Is this trend something you can confirm? and is it even safe to assume such thing? Would you assume and do something like this in your games?
I've seen a lot of people eschew baneling nest in favour of a gasless queen opening in ZvZ into roach. With the more powerful muta midgame coming in HotS I am thinking this style would be a better one to learn. What is the best and safest style to use/walloff to use? I am assuming that I can take a third with absolute impunity vs a ling/bane from my opponent once I have a handful of roaches and a spine out? What timing should I use for double gas in main (have been thinking around 5.00, 100 gas into Lair then spire, roach speed)?
On March 06 2013 00:09 Levernz wrote: Hello TL & Pros
High master Zerg on NA server (WOL), my question here would be more for Snute (unless you play that style too) i am playing your gasless style in ZvZ but i am having a hard time to survive vs lings/banes all in's when they scout no gas. I know that i need to denie any scout but should i always make extras queens ? Most of the time i get 3 queens and double gas at 5:30, should i get my gasses a bit earlier to get roaches it cases of banes busts or spawn 2 more queens to get a 4 total queens in my nat ?
Thanks !!!!!
Ling-bane pressure is actually one of the worst responses vs. this style. The best response from your opponent is taking a fast 3rd. But it's still easy to lose to all-ins if you don't see it coming.
You will have to scout his natural mineral line or see for drones (or lack of drones) passing from the main to the natural. Use your overlords well. You definitely want to make 4 queens total if you sense that something is up, maybe even add a spine around 5-minute mark. If you want a more well-rounded approach, you can also try to use 1 extractor earlier (~4:50?) instead of 2, and use a ~5-minute roach warren if you're not feeling safe. 4 queens is recommended. Don't make exceptions from this unless you know that he's being extremely greedy or if you want to gamble.
The main core of your defense will be your queens, their position, transfusions and only a few roaches. Positioning is everything here: use minerals, chokes, simcity, etc. to your advantage. When you see the pressure coming, don't forget to start new queens since you will lose the ones you have for sure. If you hold without losses, you can always cancel the queens in production.
I don't think the defensive gasless-into-roach macro openings will be of much use in HotS, but I hope it helps anyway.
is there a replay of this scenario gasless zvz opener were opponent takes a fast third?
my question for the thread is in what's the best way to use swarm hosts? Should they be staggered? How staggered should they be? What scenarios should they be used for in each match up?
also how do you properly deal with early reapers in hots?
On March 06 2013 00:09 Levernz wrote: Hello TL & Pros
High master Zerg on NA server (WOL), my question here would be more for Snute (unless you play that style too) i am playing your gasless style in ZvZ but i am having a hard time to survive vs lings/banes all in's when they scout no gas. I know that i need to denie any scout but should i always make extras queens ? Most of the time i get 3 queens and double gas at 5:30, should i get my gasses a bit earlier to get roaches it cases of banes busts or spawn 2 more queens to get a 4 total queens in my nat ?
Thanks !!!!!
Ling-bane pressure is actually one of the worst responses vs. this style. The best response from your opponent is taking a fast 3rd. But it's still easy to lose to all-ins if you don't see it coming.
You will have to scout his natural mineral line or see for drones (or lack of drones) passing from the main to the natural. Use your overlords well. You definitely want to make 4 queens total if you sense that something is up, maybe even add a spine around 5-minute mark. If you want a more well-rounded approach, you can also try to use 1 extractor earlier (~4:50?) instead of 2, and use a ~5-minute roach warren if you're not feeling safe. 4 queens is recommended. Don't make exceptions from this unless you know that he's being extremely greedy or if you want to gamble.
The main core of your defense will be your queens, their position, transfusions and only a few roaches. Positioning is everything here: use minerals, chokes, simcity, etc. to your advantage. When you see the pressure coming, don't forget to start new queens since you will lose the ones you have for sure. If you hold without losses, you can always cancel the queens in production.
I don't think the defensive gasless-into-roach macro openings will be of much use in HotS, but I hope it helps anyway.
is there a replay of this scenario gasless zvz opener were opponent takes a fast third?
my question for the thread is in what's the best way to use swarm hosts? Should they be staggered? How staggered should they be? What scenarios should they be used for in each match up?
also how do you properly deal with early reapers in hots?
I won't comment on the gasless zvz.
For swarmhosts the best way I have found to use them is when letting loose a wave of locusts at the enemy, be prepared to unburrow and run away. If you see him starting to push up as he's killing your locusts, you should be running swarmhosts back. Do not keep them burrowed. Moving them all the time is good to so that say you let loose a few waves at a protosses 3rd, then you switch to his natural. Keeps him guessing and having to reposition his army.
Zvp imo their just a great all around unit. Zerg verse Terran their better versus mech then they are against bio. Bio is hard because it's really easy to punish swarmhosts where as mech is kind of like the protoss army, it's slow and not as mobile so you have time to run the swarmhosts away.
They are not good in zvz from my many, many tests. The one way I haven't tested is if you are facing a roach/hydra/infestor player and you do turtle spine + swarmhost into ultra instead of doing roach/hydra/infestor yourself or muta/ling/bane into ultra.
Early reapers you need to get lings out as soon as possible, if the reaper enters the base before lings are out pull a few drones and pull back the weakened ones. Make weak ones into gas guysers if you have to and once lings are out your queens should almost be out and then you should be getting speedlings so you can regain map control.
Hey guys I'm a masters Zerg in WOL. I have major trouble in the ZvP matchup in general (being safe against gateway all ins and then super late game) Any suggestions for someone that hates infestors? I have tried both ling bane muta and bane rain and both are difficult to pull off. Any safe and fun style without the use of heavy infestor or roach play? Thanks
I'm a high master NA, and I'm having some trouble dealing with Protoss late game warp prism harass. I can't find the way to proper control my army to deal with Warp Prism DT / Zealot harass, and its even more disastrous if my oppo goes for multiple hatch DT harass. Is there any secret to better deal with this kind of harassment, such as expect the timing protoss player often goes for Warp Prism harass, or which kind of defense / detection should I need ? Mass spine / spore should be the answer, but how to build it properly?
I'm a high master NA, and I'm having some trouble dealing with Protoss late game warp prism harass. I can't find the way to proper control my army to deal with Warp Prism DT / Zealot harass, and its even more disastrous if my oppo goes for multiple hatch DT harass. Is there any secret to better deal with this kind of harassment, such as expect the timing protoss player often goes for Warp Prism harass, or which kind of defense / detection should I need ? Mass spine / spore should be the answer, but how to build it properly?
Thanks
Hmm So in the mid game, most zergs power drones to 80+ (If they're not severely behind their opponent). The reason they do this is so that, in the late game, they are able to place down multiple spines/spores at each base.
That being said, Zealot/DT trades decently well against spines. I would suggest getting overlord speed and placing overlords around the map in good positions. Also, if you went for a muta-based mid game, try to keep 4-5 of them alive. These are ideal for catching speed warp prisms. If you didn't go for a muta-based mid game, don't worry! Just use good overlord positioning and make sure to split up your units well. Don't just 1a2a to the location, manually select ~10 roaches (or whatever is mobile) and send them to the trouble spot. Do note that deselecting 1 corruper from your corrupter ball (that most zerg compositions have) and targetting the warp prism is a good way to cut down on prisms staying alive for more than 1 round of warp ins.
hi there. im a former gold terran player and I've decided to switch to zerg, i still don't have Hots and i think that i won't be able to get it until at least the end of this month. how can i learn zerg in wol a way that doesn't require me to re learn it in hots and do u recommend that i start learning one match up at a time ( like play ZvT only with terran friends) or is it better to learn it all together ?
On March 12 2013 03:54 darkphantom wrote: hi there. im a former gold terran player and I've decided to switch to zerg, i still don't have Hots and i think that i won't be able to get it until at least the end of this month. how can i learn zerg in wol a way that doesn't require me to re learn it in hots and do u recommend that i start learning one match up at a time ( like play ZvT only with terran friends) or is it better to learn it all together ?
any other race switching advice is appreciated
The best way to learn zerg until you get hots would be not to do mass infestor play (this isn't very viable in hots thank god). In zvt play muta/ling/bane, in zvz play muta into whatever you feel like (most zvz's in hots are muta wars but in wol that is obviously not the case).
In zvp just play mutalisk since you can't really go swarmhosts. I would just ladder as zerg but if you have friends that always helps
ZvZ is 99% the same, and the other 2 matchup's initial build orders will do fine for you. Even the mid games are viable - but the guide loses purpose when you get to the later stages.
A good opening for ZvZ would mean the world to me. I have a very hard time in the match up and I feel it revolves around my unfamiliarity with the match up. I don't a good opener and if a player could give me one that gives me the option to be aggressive and defensive that would be great. I definitely need the gas timing if that's okay. Thank you all for your time doing this. It truly shows how great the community is.
On March 12 2013 03:58 blade55555 wrote: In zvp just play mutalisk since you can't really go swarmhosts.
:x I keep dying to phoenixes when I attempt this. Any advice for dealing with that?
Well if you aren't playing hots and you really don't want to play wol style I guess you could try corruptor/muta or hydra into muta xD
Oh hell I can't read lol >< sorry
I'm trying to do muta as an alternative to swarm hosts in hots, I meant, but keep dying to phoenixs, then if I try corruptors VRs just eat them. Is swarm host the only viable option at this point?
Hi! I'm a low to mid level masters Zerg player. And i need help vs toss early 5 phoenix pressure. They come out so quickly and pick so many queens off it really delays my production and gets me flustered. Then comes the 8 gate all in or quick collsous after i over produce on hydra. Spores really dont do that much vs the Phoenix i feel. If you can just give me any advice to deal with the overall pressure this does that would be great.
What's an easy way to deal with widow mine drops if you're not good enough to watch the minimap perfectly yet? E.g. against old drops I'd just place one or two spines which at least delay the drop a bit and give me time to quickly micro drones away until my units arrive there.
On March 12 2013 03:58 blade55555 wrote: In zvp just play mutalisk since you can't really go swarmhosts.
:x I keep dying to phoenixes when I attempt this. Any advice for dealing with that?
Well if you aren't playing hots and you really don't want to play wol style I guess you could try corruptor/muta or hydra into muta xD
Oh hell I can't read lol >< sorry
I'm trying to do muta as an alternative to swarm hosts in hots, I meant, but keep dying to phoenixs, then if I try corruptors VRs just eat them. Is swarm host the only viable option at this point?
Well imo it's the best way to play since muta play is easily countered and most protosses make phoenix. You could do roach/hydra -> fast viper but I feel swarmhost is stronger.
On March 12 2013 03:58 blade55555 wrote: In zvp just play mutalisk since you can't really go swarmhosts.
:x I keep dying to phoenixes when I attempt this. Any advice for dealing with that?
Well if you aren't playing hots and you really don't want to play wol style I guess you could try corruptor/muta or hydra into muta xD
Oh hell I can't read lol >< sorry
I'm trying to do muta as an alternative to swarm hosts in hots, I meant, but keep dying to phoenixs, then if I try corruptors VRs just eat them. Is swarm host the only viable option at this point?
Well imo it's the best way to play since muta play is easily countered and most protosses make phoenix. You could do roach/hydra -> fast viper but I feel swarmhost is stronger.
On March 12 2013 03:58 blade55555 wrote: In zvp just play mutalisk since you can't really go swarmhosts.
:x I keep dying to phoenixes when I attempt this. Any advice for dealing with that?
Well if you aren't playing hots and you really don't want to play wol style I guess you could try corruptor/muta or hydra into muta xD
Oh hell I can't read lol >< sorry
I'm trying to do muta as an alternative to swarm hosts in hots, I meant, but keep dying to phoenixs, then if I try corruptors VRs just eat them. Is swarm host the only viable option at this point?
Well imo it's the best way to play since muta play is easily countered and most protosses make phoenix. You could do roach/hydra -> fast viper but I feel swarmhost is stronger.
Alright thanks for the advice <3
I kind of disagree, heavily. If you can scout that your opponent has not gone for stargate (is fairly easy now - some players even get overlord speed on hatchery tech) then going for a mutalisk based game is very, very strong. Mutalisks are much more effective now at sucking up splash - even storms - when harassing b/c they back out of the area quickly. So, even when Protoss gets storm out, it does not prevent the zerg player from harassing them. Add to this the utility of going for mutalisks and then teching to utlralisks (which are better now), and mutalisks are still a dominant mid-late game strategy for zerg. This is all assuming that your protoss friend hasn't gone stargate initially, however. If they have, stay away from muta (even 1 stargate pheonix production will SHRED mutalisks b/c of 5 range)
On March 12 2013 03:58 blade55555 wrote: In zvp just play mutalisk since you can't really go swarmhosts.
:x I keep dying to phoenixes when I attempt this. Any advice for dealing with that?
Well if you aren't playing hots and you really don't want to play wol style I guess you could try corruptor/muta or hydra into muta xD
Oh hell I can't read lol >< sorry
I'm trying to do muta as an alternative to swarm hosts in hots, I meant, but keep dying to phoenixs, then if I try corruptors VRs just eat them. Is swarm host the only viable option at this point?
Well imo it's the best way to play since muta play is easily countered and most protosses make phoenix. You could do roach/hydra -> fast viper but I feel swarmhost is stronger.
Alright thanks for the advice <3
I kind of disagree, heavily. If you can scout that your opponent has not gone for stargate (is fairly easy now - some players even get overlord speed on hatchery tech) then going for a mutalisk based game is very, very strong. Mutalisks are much more effective now at sucking up splash - even storms - when harassing b/c they back out of the area quickly. So, even when Protoss gets storm out, it does not prevent the zerg player from harassing them. Add to this the utility of going for mutalisks and then teching to utlralisks (which are better now), and mutalisks are still a dominant mid-late game strategy for zerg. This is all assuming that your protoss friend hasn't gone stargate initially, however. If they have, stay away from muta (even 1 stargate pheonix production will SHRED mutalisks b/c of 5 range)
Hmm alright, lots of stuff to consider. Thanks a bunch Glon! ^^
On March 12 2013 03:58 blade55555 wrote: In zvp just play mutalisk since you can't really go swarmhosts.
:x I keep dying to phoenixes when I attempt this. Any advice for dealing with that?
Well if you aren't playing hots and you really don't want to play wol style I guess you could try corruptor/muta or hydra into muta xD
Oh hell I can't read lol >< sorry
I'm trying to do muta as an alternative to swarm hosts in hots, I meant, but keep dying to phoenixs, then if I try corruptors VRs just eat them. Is swarm host the only viable option at this point?
Well imo it's the best way to play since muta play is easily countered and most protosses make phoenix. You could do roach/hydra -> fast viper but I feel swarmhost is stronger.
Alright thanks for the advice <3
I kind of disagree, heavily. If you can scout that your opponent has not gone for stargate (is fairly easy now - some players even get overlord speed on hatchery tech) then going for a mutalisk based game is very, very strong. Mutalisks are much more effective now at sucking up splash - even storms - when harassing b/c they back out of the area quickly. So, even when Protoss gets storm out, it does not prevent the zerg player from harassing them. Add to this the utility of going for mutalisks and then teching to utlralisks (which are better now), and mutalisks are still a dominant mid-late game strategy for zerg. This is all assuming that your protoss friend hasn't gone stargate initially, however. If they have, stay away from muta (even 1 stargate pheonix production will SHRED mutalisks b/c of 5 range)
I agree with you I was responding to what to do vs pheonix. Mutalisks are very strong vs non stargate play, but when they go stargate I was saying he shouldn't go mutalisks when they are going phoenix .
On March 11 2013 09:50 Veriol wrote: I noticed this trend among P players that they usually dont scout or scout late with their probe. When I dont see probe normal timing I assume its gateway expand and go hatch, pool opener. Is this trend something you can confirm? and is it even safe to assume such thing? Would you assume and do something like this in your games?
Also I noticed MC yesterday vs Life did this 15forge opener with late scout (as if he was trying to bait Life into hatch first and collecting easy win).
Now Im kinda sure this is a thing, so the question would be "Is it even worth it trying hatch first or is pool/hatch/gas as good and even safer" ?
Hello I am a top platinum player in Wol and only a gold player in hots so far. I am pretty bad at comparing and evaluating strengths and weaknesses on maps ._. As a general question, what maps for 1v1 in hots are generally the weakest for zergs?( and what things to look for in maps) I would like to have idea about which maps to check so I play on them less often.
Master Zerg VS GM Toss, Help: My GM Brotoss practice partner has developed a really effective strat. that is very frustrating to play against. I need some pro imput please! ^_^
I need to paint the the whole picture. Protoss opens: Gateway ---> nex. Forge. Or, Gate Core ---> nex. Forge. Depending on if he scouts any zerg gas before 4 min. or 3 gate expand if I open speedling expand.
Then his mid game is stargate into HT/Robo. Or Rob/HT, depending if I open Roach hydra, or ling infester, or Ling muta. Basically His play forces me to open up roach hydra, But then his Void rays and HT own my hydra army.
Usually what happens is I trade all of his ground army away with my roach hydra. But the Voids and HT kill all my anti air. and the planitary nex. plus the left over voids, or morphing Archons clean up the rest.
After a few cycles the massive archon, ht, and voids ray army just trades to well.
What unit comp. would I go? Roach infester? Do I need to have a more greedy build?
Right now I am feeling forced to play a bit conservative.
15 hatch, 15gas, 15pool Speed, leave one drone in gas for later lair. get 3 gases going. 4 gas up, but not drones in it until my min floats ups. expand aroudn 7-8min. Speed roach + Hydra den + range upgrade
Hi I have a few ZvP questions (based on gasless fast 3rd)
1) do you get your first (second) ovie before you attempt your natural hatch, or immediately afterwards before queen, or after queen but before lings?
2) do you get your third before second queen, or after?
3) do you sacrifice your ovie in the main or is this redundant as long as you have been spotting gas at natural before 0630 and third base with ling or ovie?
4) do you get a roach warren at 0700 or later and make a bunch of lings at 0800 instead of waiting for roaches to defend? Also, if you go lings do you want +1 carapace instead of +1 ranged to mitigate zealot +1 on your lings?
On March 21 2013 00:34 BuiBui wrote: Master Zerg VS GM Toss, Help: My GM Brotoss practice partner has developed a really effective strat. that is very frustrating to play against. I need some pro imput please! ^_^
I need to paint the the whole picture. Protoss opens: Gateway ---> nex. Forge. Or, Gate Core ---> nex. Forge. Depending on if he scouts any zerg gas before 4 min. or 3 gate expand if I open speedling expand.
Then his mid game is stargate into HT/Robo. Or Rob/HT, depending if I open Roach hydra, or ling infester, or Ling muta. Basically His play forces me to open up roach hydra, But then his Void rays and HT own my hydra army.
Usually what happens is I trade all of his ground army away with my roach hydra. But the Voids and HT kill all my anti air. and the planitary nex. plus the left over voids, or morphing Archons clean up the rest.
After a few cycles the massive archon, ht, and voids ray army just trades to well.
What unit comp. would I go? Roach infester? Do I need to have a more greedy build?
Right now I am feeling forced to play a bit conservative.
15 hatch, 15gas, 15pool Speed, leave one drone in gas for later lair. get 3 gases going. 4 gas up, but not drones in it until my min floats ups. expand aroudn 7-8min. Speed roach + Hydra den + range upgrade
I answered this in the other thread: Uh swarmhosts. Roach/hydra/swarmhost will pwn that so hard
Seriously swarmhost play will decimate HT/immortal and with hydra/ling or roach/hydra with the swarmhost you will obliterate him.
On March 21 2013 00:34 BuiBui wrote: Master Zerg VS GM Toss, Help: My GM Brotoss practice partner has developed a really effective strat. that is very frustrating to play against. I need some pro imput please! ^_^
I need to paint the the whole picture. Protoss opens: Gateway ---> nex. Forge. Or, Gate Core ---> nex. Forge. Depending on if he scouts any zerg gas before 4 min. or 3 gate expand if I open speedling expand.
Then his mid game is stargate into HT/Robo. Or Rob/HT, depending if I open Roach hydra, or ling infester, or Ling muta. Basically His play forces me to open up roach hydra, But then his Void rays and HT own my hydra army.
Usually what happens is I trade all of his ground army away with my roach hydra. But the Voids and HT kill all my anti air. and the planitary nex. plus the left over voids, or morphing Archons clean up the rest.
After a few cycles the massive archon, ht, and voids ray army just trades to well.
What unit comp. would I go? Roach infester? Do I need to have a more greedy build?
Right now I am feeling forced to play a bit conservative.
15 hatch, 15gas, 15pool Speed, leave one drone in gas for later lair. get 3 gases going. 4 gas up, but not drones in it until my min floats ups. expand aroudn 7-8min. Speed roach + Hydra den + range upgrade
I just wanted to know what the general opinion about Hydras in ZvT is?
I personally think they are super strong, if you combine them with infestors and lings. I start with 1/1 ling upgrades and I am getting a 3rd evo chamber for range upgrades the moment I reach lair. So I have a nice ling/hydra composition with upgrades. I aim to get infestors out very early and play it out like Stephano did in most of his WoL games. I also get a very early hive for a few ultras. 3/3 hydras + 3/5 ultras are super strong, if you combine them with infestors and a few vipers. It feels pretty much like ling/infestor but with less infestors and more hydras. I saw similar compositions, but only with roaches instead of lings. I am not so sure if you really need roaches. They are necessary vs mech, but not really against the usual terran bio mix. Why would you spend so much gas for roaches, instead of hydras/infestors or tech? But well, those are just my thoughts.
On March 21 2013 00:34 BuiBui wrote: Master Zerg VS GM Toss, Help: My GM Brotoss practice partner has developed a really effective strat. that is very frustrating to play against. I need some pro imput please! ^_^
I need to paint the the whole picture. Protoss opens: Gateway ---> nex. Forge. Or, Gate Core ---> nex. Forge. Depending on if he scouts any zerg gas before 4 min. or 3 gate expand if I open speedling expand.
Then his mid game is stargate into HT/Robo. Or Rob/HT, depending if I open Roach hydra, or ling infester, or Ling muta. Basically His play forces me to open up roach hydra, But then his Void rays and HT own my hydra army.
Usually what happens is I trade all of his ground army away with my roach hydra. But the Voids and HT kill all my anti air. and the planitary nex. plus the left over voids, or morphing Archons clean up the rest.
After a few cycles the massive archon, ht, and voids ray army just trades to well.
What unit comp. would I go? Roach infester? Do I need to have a more greedy build?
Right now I am feeling forced to play a bit conservative.
15 hatch, 15gas, 15pool Speed, leave one drone in gas for later lair. get 3 gases going. 4 gas up, but not drones in it until my min floats ups. expand aroudn 7-8min. Speed roach + Hydra den + range upgrade
On March 21 2013 00:34 BuiBui wrote: Master Zerg VS GM Toss, Help: My GM Brotoss practice partner has developed a really effective strat. that is very frustrating to play against. I need some pro imput please! ^_^
I need to paint the the whole picture. Protoss opens: Gateway ---> nex. Forge. Or, Gate Core ---> nex. Forge. Depending on if he scouts any zerg gas before 4 min. or 3 gate expand if I open speedling expand.
Then his mid game is stargate into HT/Robo. Or Rob/HT, depending if I open Roach hydra, or ling infester, or Ling muta. Basically His play forces me to open up roach hydra, But then his Void rays and HT own my hydra army.
Usually what happens is I trade all of his ground army away with my roach hydra. But the Voids and HT kill all my anti air. and the planitary nex. plus the left over voids, or morphing Archons clean up the rest.
After a few cycles the massive archon, ht, and voids ray army just trades to well.
What unit comp. would I go? Roach infester? Do I need to have a more greedy build?
Right now I am feeling forced to play a bit conservative.
15 hatch, 15gas, 15pool Speed, leave one drone in gas for later lair. get 3 gases going. 4 gas up, but not drones in it until my min floats ups. expand aroudn 7-8min. Speed roach + Hydra den + range upgrade
Hey, I am a mid/high diamond player and I have had a decent amount of difficulty dealing with protoss pushes that are basically all-in. At the rate I'm at I lose 80% of the time one of these comes. An example of the type of push I am referring to is the 8ish minute push where the toss sends a few units as well as a "pylon chain" where they are able to almost entirely reinforce their initial army while taking out my 3rd/2nd base(s). I usually park 1 ling and an overlord outside their base so I am usually aware of when this push comes however even though I spine up and mass units I still manage to lose.
The main question is how should I go about engaging this? Should I try to take out the pylons/probe with some of my army and use the rest plus the spines to engage his army? Should I turtle and allow his army to get in spine range and not worry about his warp ins until they arrive? I am having extreme difficulty with this and any and all feedback would be nice. Thanks!
In ZvP i seem to get pressure on me in my main if i go 3 base to an ffe, They bring a warp prism with 3+ sentries to block out any supporting units and kill my main pulling me drastically below in the meta / lat game. Is 3 base zerg out dated in ZvP? If it is what build should i learn?
I've been seeing lately that many zergs use the so-called 10-roach pressure versus Terran. Most recently a half an hour ago when LiquidSnute did this versus WW.Sting in the ESET finals. As of always, this was very successful, even though the Terran player opened BIO which must be the worst-case scenario versus this opening. The 10 roaches would very possibly do game-ending damage versus, say, a reaper->hellion opening that is somewhat popular in the current HOTS meta game.
Do you open with this blindly, or is there a trigger for this? The 15/16/16 is for what I've been seeing the foundation. I am also interested in a exact build order for this in the very early stage. Roachwarren timing, gastiming (second gas?) etc. I also would like to know when to take the 3rd behind and how you should transition based upon the tech path chosen by the Terran.
On March 24 2013 10:20 thechasemenna wrote: Hey, I am a mid/high diamond player and I have had a decent amount of difficulty dealing with protoss pushes that are basically all-in. At the rate I'm at I lose 80% of the time one of these comes. An example of the type of push I am referring to is the 8ish minute push where the toss sends a few units as well as a "pylon chain" where they are able to almost entirely reinforce their initial army while taking out my 3rd/2nd base(s). I usually park 1 ling and an overlord outside their base so I am usually aware of when this push comes however even though I spine up and mass units I still manage to lose.
The main question is how should I go about engaging this? Should I try to take out the pylons/probe with some of my army and use the rest plus the spines to engage his army? Should I turtle and allow his army to get in spine range and not worry about his warp ins until they arrive? I am having extreme difficulty with this and any and all feedback would be nice. Thanks!
Hi thechasemenna,
From the sounds of it your issue is not how you're engaging your opponents forces, but a failure to recognise these pushes before they move out, as you need plenty of time to prepare.
Scouting
There are a few scouting points which will tip you off that this is coming: 1) The most important one --> no gas at natural by 6:45
Other hints: 2) Forge upgrading by 6:00 3) Chronoboosts on cyber-core 4) extra gateways started by 7:00
The most important is just checking the gas. If they have no gas at their natural they HAVE to be either taking a fast 3rd or making use of a lot of zealots in early aggression (only things they can spend minerals on).
Reaction:
You should react by dropping a roach warren immediately at 6:45 and cutting drones and building overlords from around 7:15. Roaches can engage from the front and use stutter micro to focus down zealots easily. If you can afford ling-speed then lings are great for cleaning up their retreating stalkers.
Notes + how to engage:
a) remember to delay lair a little so you have enough gas for your first roaches b) use a small pack of lings to push back any initial stalker-zealot pressure and check for pylons to see if they are committing to the pressure. Try to kill unattended pylon to slow/distract their push if you need. c) You can hold this pressure just with speedling-baneling and hydra later but you need very good control and a fast ling speed that kicks in by 8:00
On March 24 2013 04:13 Stardroid wrote: Hi I have a few ZvP questions (based on gasless fast 3rd)
1) do you get your first (second) ovie before you attempt your natural hatch, or immediately afterwards before queen, or after queen but before lings?
2) do you get your third before second queen, or after?
3) do you sacrifice your ovie in the main or is this redundant as long as you have been spotting gas at natural before 0630 and third base with ling or ovie?
4) do you get a roach warren at 0700 or later and make a bunch of lings at 0800 instead of waiting for roaches to defend? Also, if you go lings do you want +1 carapace instead of +1 ranged to mitigate zealot +1 on your lings?
Thanks for any help Stardroid Space
Hey Stardroid, thanks for ordering your post neatly and concisely, makes it easier to answer!
1) If there is a probe abouts, able to block, get the overlord before the hatchery so you have supply to get queen + lings out to clear the pylon. Otherwise 14/15p -16h-15ovie-15queen is the standard order of things
2) Totally up to you, most pros prefer 3rd hatch first but it is a matter of a few seconds delay on one or the other and is overall unimportant.
3) Always sac the ovie unless there is a stalker right on the edge waiting for it. Especially if they are pressuring with a stalker you will get to scout the whole base and often get out the other side. Personally I like to bring my natural gas-spotting overlord in a little bit and check for tech at the natural at the same time
4) Personally I think roaches are getting out-dated at the higher levels of play in HotS ZvP (in most situations). But that is a whole other topic.
Roach warren timing can be dependant on scouting, fast natural gases (before 6:30) and not spotting gateways in the main and you can delay it to 7:30-8:00. Slow-lings can defend a light zealot-stalker mofoship pressure, but are near useful vs dedicated 4-8 gate attacks. So only invest enough lings to push back the initial pressure, or more if you have ling speed up in a timely fashion.
I think either upgrade is fine, if you prefer to focus on lings definitely get melee or carapace over ranged!
Hello, mid GM EU player here. I'm having some problems in securing third base in muta vs muta plays and in general this phase between 8:00 and 10:00 minute mark. I usually end up in situation where I either underproduce banelings and i get my 3rd killed by remaining zerglings or I overproduce banelings and I'm behind in muta count. Or if I have enough of everything, my drone count suffers. If it's some generic pressure I might hold, If it's more serious pressure like Ret likes to do, I almost always end up dead or behind. So my questions are: 1. When to start to produce lings to secure 3rd? I've been doing full saturation 16+6 per base and then ling production, is this correct? Would it be possible to sneak few more drones? 2. How do I know the number of banelings i should morph if I play defensively? should I put overlords around the third base? Should I slightly overproduce banelings in case he hides them somewhere? What's the general number of initial banes morphed? 3. When is it time to stop morhping banes, just when the mutas pop or can I stop it a bit earlier? 4. When do you go back to droning? I tend to feel safe once mutas are out with spine and spore 5. Is it better to be aggressive with pure ling and then save gas for mutas or morphing few banes doesnt hurt? 6. Is it better to delay mutas slightly in order to get faster 3rd or vice versa? I realize it might be also my micro, but I guess those informations would be useful as well, thanks!
I've talked about this a bit in another thread or two...But I still don't feel like I have a solid answer. The Sentry Immortal all-in from protoss (the "Soul Train") is still a problem in HotS, I feel like. I do, however, recognize that Zerg has some new responses to this particular build. I'm wondering what people have been having success with. Apparently it's beatable with Roach/Ling (I've read, but not seen, that Life beat Parting with Roach/Ling?). I am usually unable to hold it with Roach/Ling, and I think you need to be extra greedy in the early stages of the game to make it happen anyway.
However, some other options are fast lair tech, either Swam Hosts or Hydras. Now, I'm able to get 3-4 swarm hosts out with lings and about 5 spines by around 10:15. That means if I can delay the protoss push by around 30 seconds with my first couple sets of zerglings, I'll be able to hold out for those few swarm hosts. I'm wondering, though, if that is enough to hold the push. I feel like it may be better to go the hydra route, as I can get a similar number of zerglings and spines, but have around 10 hydras by 10:20. I think this is a much stronger response when you suspect/know the all-in is coming.
I'm just wondering what people have been doing to stop this push from Protoss, if it is still "unbeatable," and what my best chance is at crushing it every time I face it.
On March 21 2013 00:34 BuiBui wrote: Master Zerg VS GM Toss, Help: My GM Brotoss practice partner has developed a really effective strat. that is very frustrating to play against. I need some pro imput please! ^_^
I need to paint the the whole picture. Protoss opens: Gateway ---> nex. Forge. Or, Gate Core ---> nex. Forge. Depending on if he scouts any zerg gas before 4 min. or 3 gate expand if I open speedling expand.
Then his mid game is stargate into HT/Robo. Or Rob/HT, depending if I open Roach hydra, or ling infester, or Ling muta. Basically His play forces me to open up roach hydra, But then his Void rays and HT own my hydra army.
Usually what happens is I trade all of his ground army away with my roach hydra. But the Voids and HT kill all my anti air. and the planitary nex. plus the left over voids, or morphing Archons clean up the rest.
After a few cycles the massive archon, ht, and voids ray army just trades to well.
What unit comp. would I go? Roach infester? Do I need to have a more greedy build?
Right now I am feeling forced to play a bit conservative.
15 hatch, 15gas, 15pool Speed, leave one drone in gas for later lair. get 3 gases going. 4 gas up, but not drones in it until my min floats ups. expand aroudn 7-8min. Speed roach + Hydra den + range upgrade
I answered this in the other thread: Uh swarmhosts. Roach/hydra/swarmhost will pwn that so hard
Seriously swarmhost play will decimate HT/immortal and with hydra/ling or roach/hydra with the swarmhost you will obliterate him.
Thanks ^_^ I Im finding that I need to clear those voids asap. They do silly amounts of dps
On March 30 2013 05:20 TFS wrote: I've talked about this a bit in another thread or two...But I still don't feel like I have a solid answer. The Sentry Immortal all-in from protoss (the "Soul Train") is still a problem in HotS, I feel like. I do, however, recognize that Zerg has some new responses to this particular build. I'm wondering what people have been having success with. Apparently it's beatable with Roach/Ling (I've read, but not seen, that Life beat Parting with Roach/Ling?). I am usually unable to hold it with Roach/Ling, and I think you need to be extra greedy in the early stages of the game to make it happen anyway.
However, some other options are fast lair tech, either Swam Hosts or Hydras. Now, I'm able to get 3-4 swarm hosts out with lings and about 5 spines by around 10:15. That means if I can delay the protoss push by around 30 seconds with my first couple sets of zerglings, I'll be able to hold out for those few swarm hosts. I'm wondering, though, if that is enough to hold the push. I feel like it may be better to go the hydra route, as I can get a similar number of zerglings and spines, but have around 10 hydras by 10:20. I think this is a much stronger response when you suspect/know the all-in is coming.
I'm just wondering what people have been doing to stop this push from Protoss, if it is still "unbeatable," and what my best chance is at crushing it every time I face it.
Even in WoL, I found immortal/sentry all-ins were free wins for me once I learned how to execute a 3-base muta/spine build and base race . I'm only low diamond, but I beat masters Protoss reliably with mutas when they try the immo/sentry. Between 8-9 minutes I start making a spine wall outside my natural. Once the Protoss pushes out, pull all drones from your third base behind your spines and sac your third. (You might want to use some of these drones to make proxy hatches for the base race that is to come. By the time your third is down, you have a flock of mutas and a bunch of lings wrecking their main and natural. You will win the base race every time. Usually the Protoss leaves once he gets to your spine wall.
This thread discusses the strategy better than I can:
Im a high diamond zerg, in WOL and in HOTS. Ive always tried to take macro advantages vs players and play really greedy. im wondering how often Pros do this or if its Viable in Masters/GM. Do you ever go into a game knowing you are planning to take too many expansions, or overmake drones? or do you only play greedy in response to what you have scouted? Some examples: in zvt when i scout a gassless terran, a cc first (and sometimes even a 1 rax into fast cc) i just go hatch, hatch, pool and defend with drones/lings if i have to taking kinda late gass in zvp if i scout stargate, i just throw down a 4th hatch and drone like a mad man making queens and a few spores/spines. is this bad practice?
P.S. Its great to see threads like this, i personally like to take little breaks and read through threads and try to help out low level players, it helps me with ladder anxiety and i dont get burnt out when grinding. hope this is fun for the pros as well! thanks in advance for taking the time to read
On March 30 2013 05:20 TFS wrote: I've talked about this a bit in another thread or two...But I still don't feel like I have a solid answer. The Sentry Immortal all-in from protoss (the "Soul Train") is still a problem in HotS, I feel like. I do, however, recognize that Zerg has some new responses to this particular build. I'm wondering what people have been having success with. Apparently it's beatable with Roach/Ling (I've read, but not seen, that Life beat Parting with Roach/Ling?). I am usually unable to hold it with Roach/Ling, and I think you need to be extra greedy in the early stages of the game to make it happen anyway.
However, some other options are fast lair tech, either Swam Hosts or Hydras. Now, I'm able to get 3-4 swarm hosts out with lings and about 5 spines by around 10:15. That means if I can delay the protoss push by around 30 seconds with my first couple sets of zerglings, I'll be able to hold out for those few swarm hosts. I'm wondering, though, if that is enough to hold the push. I feel like it may be better to go the hydra route, as I can get a similar number of zerglings and spines, but have around 10 hydras by 10:20. I think this is a much stronger response when you suspect/know the all-in is coming.
I'm just wondering what people have been doing to stop this push from Protoss, if it is still "unbeatable," and what my best chance is at crushing it every time I face it.
Even in WoL, I found immortal/sentry all-ins were free wins for me once I learned how to execute a 3-base muta/spine build and base race . I'm only low diamond, but I beat masters Protoss reliably with mutas when they try the immo/sentry. Between 8-9 minutes I start making a spine wall outside my natural. Once the Protoss pushes out, pull all drones from your third base behind your spines and sac your third. (You might want to use some of these drones to make proxy hatches for the base race that is to come. By the time your third is down, you have a flock of mutas and a bunch of lings wrecking their main and natural. You will win the base race every time. Usually the Protoss leaves once he gets to your spine wall.
This thread discusses the strategy better than I can:
Since instarted following it, I celebrate now when I see a Protoss building a robo around 7:00. It's stargate openings that are difficult...
That guide is awful as far as holding a sentry immortal all-in is concerned. Both example replays that are listed in the guide have a protoss that moves out almost 2 minutes late with a bunch of freshly warped in sentries with no energy. No offense, but I posted this here in hopes of getting the perspective of one or some of the people listed in the OP of this thread.
When one is going for a standard pool , hatch, hatch opening in zvp. Vs the gate core opening. What should we do once we learn that its gate core instead of FFE?
Clearly once needs an adaptive build that can respond to cheese or a macro game. What are some pro builds that you all use?
Stay on 2 base, grab 3 gas at 44 supply + roach warren? Cut drones at 25 and get lings speed?
On March 30 2013 04:39 Matiz_pl wrote: Hello, mid GM EU player here. I'm having some problems in securing third base in muta vs muta plays and in general this phase between 8:00 and 10:00 minute mark. I usually end up in situation where I either underproduce banelings and i get my 3rd killed by remaining zerglings or I overproduce banelings and I'm behind in muta count. Or if I have enough of everything, my drone count suffers. If it's some generic pressure I might hold, If it's more serious pressure like Ret likes to do, I almost always end up dead or behind. So my questions are: 1. When to start to produce lings to secure 3rd? I've been doing full saturation 16+6 per base and then ling production, is this correct? Would it be possible to sneak few more drones? 2. How do I know the number of banelings i should morph if I play defensively? should I put overlords around the third base? Should I slightly overproduce banelings in case he hides them somewhere? What's the general number of initial banes morphed? 3. When is it time to stop morhping banes, just when the mutas pop or can I stop it a bit earlier? 4. When do you go back to droning? I tend to feel safe once mutas are out with spine and spore 5. Is it better to be aggressive with pure ling and then save gas for mutas or morphing few banes doesnt hurt? 6. Is it better to delay mutas slightly in order to get faster 3rd or vice versa? I realize it might be also my micro, but I guess those informations would be useful as well, thanks!
Since I'm probably one of the Zergs you played the most on EU ladder in that specific scenario, I'll give my opinion on that:
1) Assuming a standard opening with no particular early game investments (spending to perform or defend a timing) you'll end up about even with the other guy, both having 16+6 on two bases. At that point i personally prefer to add 3-4 more drones and start ling production. You'll easly get away with a few more drones whereas you'll mostly likely lose with a too early third, if you're on the defensive side.
2) Yes, having at least one overlord outside your third will help most of the times, and you'll be able to move it away before mutas catch it. As for banelings, you really want to morph as few as possible, ideally no more than 2-4. You want to use your lings to deny his morphing too close to your third, at least until mutas are out. It's a difficult balance but in the games we've played I've noticed you generally play too greedy and/or too passive/defensive where I play very aggressive especially if you take a too early third.
3) Banelings will turn useless more often than not when mutas hit the field, so ye avoid making them at all if you can. Four banelings are one mutalisk and in the early stages of the muta vs muta that can be game ending.
4) I personally don't really go back to droning untill I've done severe damage or denied his third. I only saturate the 16+6 main and natural plus the 6 drones on the third's gasses. I never slip in more than 3-4 drones on the third's minerals and only produce units. That's because I prefer to play the aggressive side of things I suppose, but still you don't want to make drones unless you really feel you can attack. Spines and Spores don't really cut it unless you have many, 4-5+ each base. That's a huge investment.
5) Ideally you want to be aggressive with pure lings forcing your opponent to make banelings whereas you save gas for mutas. If you really have to morph banelings, you want to make no more than 2-4 really, they're a huge investment and they'll cut on your muta count.
6) I strongly believe it's better to delay third to get out mutas faster and delay his third if he's too greedy, instead. Losing an early placed third will be game ending in most cases. On top of that, it does take a good while before the 5th and 6th gasses kick in, If you took your lair gasses between 6 and 6.15 you'll be able to sustain the muta production even if you're a little bit behind on the third.
As you said, most of this is micro, but since you don't really lack that, the games you played versus me on ladder ended up with you being too defensive and too greedy, losing your third or getting too far behind gas wise to defend it. I personally don't think playing a defensive Ling/Muta is viable, these units are way too fast to defend em properly even if you have Ling/Mutas yourself.
Hello Guys! First of all, thanks for this awesome Thread! I'm already a fanboi. I'm currently 1000points EU Ladder - Zerg.
a) I usually open with 15hatch 17gas 16pool in ZvZ. I don't have trouble defending 9p/10p -> expo or any speedling allins, but lately i faced 10p, a bunch of drones and a hero spine crawler, which i wasn't able to defend. What option I have in this spot and which is the best one? I pulled all drones and went for a base trade scenario, which really wasn't the best idea.
b) In ZvT i have trouble in midgame against a strong 2-2 timing with bio and a lot of mines. I opened 3 Hatch Muta with double upgrades, which he was able to defend pretty easily I'd say. I didn't commit to Mutas, stopped at about 14-16. I was able to break the first wave of bio, mine, medivac, but the next waves of reinforcements just rolled me over. What might be the best choice to do? Delay Hive tech? Commit to mutas? Rush for ultra?
Hey I have one question if you want to go Mutas in ZvP which are the factors that maked decide you to go for them, and do you prefer to go mass mutas or just a few and then transition, but in to what? And my last question is how is the best way to defend untill you get mutas if he goes for 2 base allins or early attacks in general.
I appologize for any mistakes I have in the text :S Thanks!
On April 03 2013 00:32 Theilo wrote: Hello Guys! First of all, thanks for this awesome Thread! I'm already a fanboi. I'm currently 1000points EU Ladder - Zerg.
a) I usually open with 15hatch 17gas 16pool in ZvZ. I don't have trouble defending 9p/10p -> expo or any speedling allins, but lately i faced 10p, a bunch of drones and a hero spine crawler, which i wasn't able to defend. What option I have in this spot and which is the best one? I pulled all drones and went for a base trade scenario, which really wasn't the best idea.
b) In ZvT i have trouble in midgame against a strong 2-2 timing with bio and a lot of mines. I opened 3 Hatch Muta with double upgrades, which he was able to defend pretty easily I'd say. I didn't commit to Mutas, stopped at about 14-16. I was able to break the first wave of bio, mine, medivac, but the next waves of reinforcements just rolled me over. What might be the best choice to do? Delay Hive tech? Commit to mutas? Rush for ultra?
Hi Theilo, thanks for the easy to sort format, let's try to answer your questions now:
a) Your 15 Hatch 17 Gas is the greediest possible ZvZ opening, you take quite a risk since 6-7-8 Pool are extremely difficult to stop. At the same time, 10 Pool Exp doesn't really work cause all you need to do is take time till your Pool finishes and you'll end up ahead even if you're forced to sacrifice your natural or lose it. However, 10 Pool with drones hard counters your opening, it's pretty much impossible to deny the spine with just drones, I play that 15 Hatch 17 Gas aswell quite often and really I don't remember ever holding a 10p with drones and spines unless the other Zerg made some massive mistake. The only thing you can do is to try keep alive as many drones as possible until your lings pop out and then engage, again trying to save as many drones as possible. It's important to note however, that this 10p with drones is extremely all in and that the other Zerg takes a massive gamble cause the only thing it really counters is your 15H 17G build. Anything else (14/14 , 15p 15h and 15h 15p to an exteend) can hold it fairly easly. The current maps are pretty big and more often than not your opponent will have to decide wether to pull drones or not before seeing your natural Hatchery. Seems to me a case of blind countering from opponents who know you are going to 15H 17G, the best suggestion I can give you is not to play this same build twice against the same opponent.
b) I wouldn't suggest going past the 10-12 Mutas really, they are a huge gas investment and they're very hard to use offensively against the current mine heavy midgame. You can hold the bio/mine pushes with just lings and banelings, some micro to trigger mines is required but most of the work comes from your injects, don't wanna miss them and keep your resources low while under this pressure. It's very ling heavy and unforgiving, if you screw up your positioning and move on a mine you'll lose 20 lings in one shot. Use your mutas to snipe medivacs and catch drops. I wouldn't commit to Mutas nor delay Hive, nothing on Lair tech will trade effectively with 3/3 Bio. I've had the most success rushing for 3/3 and Ultras as these allow you to be aggressive. You will still need to keep several Overseers in your army and try to trigger mines as much as possible, in the very late games you might also wanna add some Infestors and/or Vipers, I tend to prefer the first against pure bio and the second against Marine/Tank/Mine.
On April 03 2013 01:34 sixpoolOMG wrote: Hey I have one question if you want to go Mutas in ZvP which are the factors that maked decide you to go for them, and do you prefer to go mass mutas or just a few and then transition, but in to what? And my last question is how is the best way to defend untill you get mutas if he goes for 2 base allins or early attacks in general.
I appologize for any mistakes I have in the text :S Thanks!
The factors into making mutalisk honestly comes down to what protoss is doing. Like personally for me I don't go mutas vs stargate play. If they go robo play I like to do mutalisks.
There are a few things you can transition into, you can do muta/ling/bane -> ultra or you can do muta/ling -> swarmhost/hydra or you can just do mass muta -> base trade when he attacks.
I personally go the muta/ling into swarmhost/hydra as I find that incredibly powerful especially sense a lot of protoss players like to go templar vs mutalisk which swarmhost destroy.
To defend when going mutalisks you need a roach warren, you may make no units out of this, but if he does a gateway timing you will need roach/ling or you be dead.
On March 30 2013 23:11 BuiBui wrote: When one is going for a standard pool , hatch, hatch opening in zvp. Vs the gate core opening. What should we do once we learn that its gate core instead of FFE?
Clearly once needs an adaptive build that can respond to cheese or a macro game. What are some pro builds that you all use?
Stay on 2 base, grab 3 gas at 44 supply + roach warren? Cut drones at 25 and get lings speed?
Could someone please answer this question? What are some standard reactions to gate core into: 1 gate FE, 3 gate/DT FE, 4 gate all-in, if the gate has been scouted after zerg has started a 3rd.
On March 30 2013 23:11 BuiBui wrote: When one is going for a standard pool , hatch, hatch opening in zvp. Vs the gate core opening. What should we do once we learn that its gate core instead of FFE?
Clearly once needs an adaptive build that can respond to cheese or a macro game. What are some pro builds that you all use?
Stay on 2 base, grab 3 gas at 44 supply + roach warren? Cut drones at 25 and get lings speed?
Could someone please answer this question? What are some standard reactions to gate core into: 1 gate FE, 3 gate/DT FE, 4 gate all-in, if the gate has been scouted after zerg has started a 3rd.
I have been playing a very reactive style against Protoss, I even scout with the 9th drone since HotS cause I'm not a fan of the Overlord scout / blind gasless third metagame that's been going for so long. I suggest you wait for someone that's used to play that and feels safe with it. Be patient someone will answer it : )
Greetings, champions. Jinx here, Masters Zerg - EU. My question pertains to a few things I've been employing to quite a good amount of success lately.
1: Do you think there's unexplored potential to playing Ling/Muta/Corruptor versus Stargate openings? While it does not remain an effective way to play throughout the entirety of the game, I've had an extreme amount of success by denying or delaying a Protoss third with this kind of playstyle. Even versus double Stargate plays, the corruptor/Muta combo can deal quite effectively with Phoenix/Voidray as long as the numbers do not go out of hand.Transitioning into Swarmhost/Hydra sets you up for being aggressive throughout the game while denying any kind of Warpprism or pylon place that will let the protoss circumvent your Swarmhosts.
2: ZvZ has become extremely hard for me, as I've always been a player to juggle around my mineral and upgrade advantage on Speedlings to carry me into a counter-attack Heavy Roach/Hydra midgame. Is there a playstyle I can employ with the same kind of mindset? - I've come to experience quite often that using the Speedlings as a stepping stone to take a lead with my third-base timing, has become increasingly difficult as the lairs have been going up earlier and earlier. While in some games I've managed to identify this cutting of corners and allinning them with upgraded ling/bling, It just doesn't feel like a stable way to play. Am I simply forced into getting more mutas earlier than my opponent every game?
3: ZvT has not actually been too troublesome for me, outside of a few maps where I'm faced with this heavy and fast-paced drop play. I know that if I can survive the drops and go counter-attack, its pretty much a free win. Yet more often than not, I simply crumble as the Terran circumvents my initated drop-protection, while taking a greedy third. Is there a way I can punish greedy play, without risking over-commiting to the punishment as his drops are raining down marines at all of my bases?.. Are Mutalisks a must against Bio-openings?
hello i am a top 50 EU GM zerg and i have questions about ZvT so... first of all i like the ling bling muta style more than the roach hydra style. okay 1. i have problems dealing with hellbat marine medivac pressure at around... 10 minutes. how should i deal with it? speedlings cant really touch it, maybe blings could help out a little bit, or should i have mutas at 10 minutes out? 2. how many mutas i should make in general versus terran? i normally make about 10, but i see many players building like 20. 3. if i go ling bling muta... how to deal with a mech push with hellbats and thors? should i go for really fast t3 against mech and deal with the earlier lower pressure with mass ling bling muta? would be nice if you could help me^^
On March 30 2013 23:11 BuiBui wrote: When one is going for a standard pool , hatch, hatch opening in zvp. Vs the gate core opening. What should we do once we learn that its gate core instead of FFE?
Clearly once needs an adaptive build that can respond to cheese or a macro game. What are some pro builds that you all use?
Stay on 2 base, grab 3 gas at 44 supply + roach warren? Cut drones at 25 and get lings speed?
Could someone please answer this question? What are some standard reactions to gate core into: 1 gate FE, 3 gate/DT FE, 4 gate all-in, if the gate has been scouted after zerg has started a 3rd.
When you face gate first, get gas geyser asap and once you see him take his natural take a third. Be very wary of his natural as if you don't see a natural expo by 5 minutes odds are he's 4 gating you or doing DT/stargate rush.
Get a roach warren at 6:15 or so. If you think he's 4 gating just rely on speedling/queen/spine crawler defense and you should smash it with a bunch of lings.
On April 04 2013 01:05 GodOfWarAReS wrote: hello i am a top 50 EU GM zerg and i have questions about ZvT so... first of all i like the ling bling muta style more than the roach hydra style. okay 1. i have problems dealing with hellbat marine medivac pressure at around... 10 minutes. how should i deal with it? speedlings cant really touch it, maybe blings could help out a little bit, or should i have mutas at 10 minutes out? 2. how many mutas i should make in general versus terran? i normally make about 10, but i see many players building like 20. 3. if i go ling bling muta... how to deal with a mech push with hellbats and thors? should i go for really fast t3 against mech and deal with the earlier lower pressure with mass ling bling muta? would be nice if you could help me^^
1. You should have roach/ling/bane if he does a hellbat/marine/medivac timing. Your mutas will not be out by this time unless you are doing fast 2 base muta. You should always have a roach warren vs terran more as a just in case scenario like the hellbat/marine/medivac timing so you can make roaches, lings and banes.
2. I make 14-6 mutalisks.
3. You don't go muta/ling/bane vs mech, if you go muta make 9-10 then transition into swarmhost/roach/hydra -> fast hive -> vipers/swarmhost/hydra/ultra. Very good vs mech.
Hello, I'm currently High Masters in KR, and I've some questions on ZvT and ZvP.
1) ZvT
I see lots of zerg pros use swarm hosts in this matchup recently. What are the exact purpose of swarm hosts in ZvT? How many should I get?
2) ZvP
I don't have the slightest idea on this matchup, really, even tho I played like 300 games...
a) How should a standard game vs P should be played like? I know the openings, but I just don't know what composition should I aim for. Right now I'm relying on roach-hydra-viper to bust the 3rd base of the Protoss, but that strategy seems highly volatile. I don't know why, but it just works this time, and fails miserably the next time.
b) What should I do vs turtling Protosses in Akilon Flats? Many Protosses just turtle in their natural, gets few void rays to harass, and go for carriers(or tempests) right away to defend against hydras as they get the 3rd base. No matter how hard I try, I can barely somewhat delay the Protoss's 3rd, but they would get it eventually anyway. The Protosses then just sit there until they have giant void ray/carrier(tempest) deathball, which I can't do anything about, even with 6~8 bases... I tried to make a line of spore crawlers in front of the enemy's base and also tried to use vipers to diminish the number of the void rays, but spore crawlers were just no help at all and vipers were countered by loads of cannons and few HTs...
On April 04 2013 04:53 redloser wrote: Hello, I'm currently High Masters in KR, and I've some questions on ZvT and ZvP.
1) ZvT
I see lots of zerg pros use swarm hosts in this matchup recently. What are the exact purpose of swarm hosts in ZvT? How many should I get?
2) ZvP
I don't have the slightest idea on this matchup, really, even tho I played like 300 games...
a) How should a standard game vs P should be played like? I know the openings, but I just don't know what composition should I aim for. Right now I'm relying on roach-hydra-viper to bust the 3rd base of the Protoss, but that strategy seems highly volatile. I don't know why, but it just works this time, and fails miserably the next time.
b) What should I do vs turtling Protosses in Akilon Flats? Many Protosses just turtle in their natural, gets few void rays to harass, and go for carriers(or tempests) right away to defend against hydras as they get the 3rd base. No matter how hard I try, I can barely somewhat delay the Protoss's 3rd, but they would get it eventually anyway. The Protosses then just sit there until they have giant void ray/carrier(tempest) deathball, which I can't do anything about, even with 6~8 bases... I tried to make a line of spore crawlers in front of the enemy's base and also tried to use vipers to diminish the number of the void rays, but spore crawlers were just no help at all and vipers were countered by loads of cannons and few HTs...
Swarmhosts are good vs mech and also good at forcing widow mines to fire at locusts. This is why swarmhosts are seeing more and more use in zvt.
zvp hydra/swarmhost/ultra/viper is very strong late game and can kill that deathball. Also starting off hydra/swarmhost into fast hive and get vipers then ultra. Very powerful zvp :D
How do you guys feel about roach/hydra/infestor vs bio mine. I seen Stephono do it and it looks powerful. I have also done it and it feels strong for me as well. Will this unit comp be viable in the pro scene or is it just something good if you can out macro your Terran opponents?
Can you guys please tell me a short list of 1-base common pushes and attacks timings from Protoss / Terran ? Like 4g, DTs, Air harass...
Second question, at what time should I prepare for that kind of attack ? I heard vs Protoss it is 5:00 if no natural (I usualy prepare for it between 6:00 and 6:30, maybe I'm too late) ? The question is : at what time when I scout no natural should I think "well, lets prepare for it" ?
On April 04 2013 05:42 PR.Jay wrote: How do you guys feel about roach/hydra/infestor vs bio mine. I seen Stephono do it and it looks powerful. I have also done it and it feels strong for me as well. Will this unit comp be viable in the pro scene or is it just something good if you can out macro your Terran opponents?
Hm I think it might have potential but I personally am not a fan. Dealing with drops is really hard when doing that kind of style. I don't know if it'll be viable though or not as everytime I see any sort of roach/hydra play it gets smashed 99% of the time it seems like so I honestly don't think roach/hydra is a very good composition in zvt or zvp.
I feel like the only option in the ZvZ midgame is mutalisk and i can't see any other choice. If i try a fast 3rd with roach/hydralisk, i just lose against speedling/baneling/mutalisk. I tried infestors but it's really hard to catch mutalisk (and i you catch mutalisks, you MUST have enough fungals to kill them).
Do you know some standard way to play against mutalisk in ZvZ without mutalisk ?
Hey, Mid Dia here... I have 50% win ZvT, 66-70% ZvP but only 33% ZvZ...
I have two questions:
How can I go into a strong midgame army (roach/hydra/infestor) without dying to a muta build?
I usually am better at macro than my opponents during opening/mid game, but when I get harassed with DT's, drops, run-by's, then I lose all focus and just lose more and more until I have lost (even if more eco, army and bases)
On April 04 2013 17:59 Magus.421 wrote: Low master Zerg here.
I'm just sick of ZvZ
I feel like the only option in the ZvZ midgame is mutalisk and i can't see any other choice. If i try a fast 3rd with roach/hydralisk, i just lose against speedling/baneling/mutalisk. I tried infestors but it's really hard to catch mutalisk (and i you catch mutalisks, you MUST have enough fungals to kill them).
Do you know some standard way to play against mutalisk in ZvZ without mutalisk ?
Thanks.
Suppy,
I was watching you stream last night and you were experimenting with a new Z v Z build intended to counter standard muta play. I think you were playing against Guts with Gowser (not sure on spelling) observing. It seemed to work fairly well in that you won 3 straight games. Any chance that you could provide any details on that build? I too am looking for the meta to shift from mutas/timings.
1 - I recently bought the expansion and I haven't figured out yet the new units yet. Protoss oracle and mothership core and terrans hellbat and widow mine seem real useful and strong, on the other hand Zerg's swarmhost (which to me looks like a bad version of the broodlord) and viper (seems much weaker than infestors) look not so good to me. Are there any new strats with those new units? What am I missing?
2 - I don't know how to play ZvZ. I used to go mutas to get map control and a faster 3rd on WoL and transition into infestors after 10 mutas or so. Now it's real hard to fungal mutas, and muta wars are crazy. Is there some other viable build that can do decent vs mutas? I thought controlling your opponent through certain timings (so that he dies if he goes lair too early, for example) might work.
I was watching you stream last night and you were experimenting with a new Z v Z build intended to counter standard muta play. I think you were playing against Guts with Gowser (not sure on spelling) observing. It seemed to work fairly well in that you won 3 straight games. Any chance that you could provide any details on that build? I too am looking for the meta to shift from mutas/timings.
Thanks, Alex
I think there's is a huge mistake :D I don't stream and i don't know any Gowser or Guts.
I was watching you stream last night and you were experimenting with a new Z v Z build intended to counter standard muta play. I think you were playing against Guts with Gowser (not sure on spelling) observing. It seemed to work fairly well in that you won 3 straight games. Any chance that you could provide any details on that build? I too am looking for the meta to shift from mutas/timings.
Thanks, Alex
I think there's is a huge mistake :D I don't stream and i don't know any Gowser or Guts.
I don't know why he quoted you but he did say suppy
2 - I don't know how to play ZvZ. I used to go mutas to get map control and a faster 3rd on WoL and transition into infestors after 10 mutas or so. Now it's real hard to fungal mutas, and muta wars are crazy. Is there some other viable build that can do decent vs mutas? I thought controlling your opponent through certain timings (so that he dies if he goes lair too early, for example) might work.
thanks
I've actually been wondering about this lately.
I've seen that hydras aren't too bad, but the problem is all I've been able to successfully do against Mutas is to defend with spore/queen and push a ground force into their base in hopes they retreat to defend. I have been having awful success in HOTS though.
I was watching you stream last night and you were experimenting with a new Z v Z build intended to counter standard muta play. I think you were playing against Guts with Gowser (not sure on spelling) observing. It seemed to work fairly well in that you won 3 straight games. Any chance that you could provide any details on that build? I too am looking for the meta to shift from mutas/timings.
Thanks, Alex
I think there's is a huge mistake :D I don't stream and i don't know any Gowser or Guts.
I don't know why he quoted you but he did say suppy
Hehe
I saw what Suppy did. I do it too for 1 week, and overall, i'm having a huge success. Basically, that's double upgrade lings before lair, into +2/+2 lings and LOT of infestors.
When he goes out, you counter attack with your lings. +2/+2 lings destroy bases pretty easily :p
Lost of infestors, because you'll waste thousands of fungles before catching the mutas. But usually i just kill my opponents with the +2/+2 lings xD
Against Roach/Hydra, i go swarmhost instead of infestors.
I was watching you stream last night and you were experimenting with a new Z v Z build intended to counter standard muta play. I think you were playing against Guts with Gowser (not sure on spelling) observing. It seemed to work fairly well in that you won 3 straight games. Any chance that you could provide any details on that build? I too am looking for the meta to shift from mutas/timings.
Thanks, Alex
I think there's is a huge mistake :D I don't stream and i don't know any Gowser or Guts.
I don't know why he quoted you but he did say suppy
Hehe
I saw what Suppy did. I do it too for 1 week, and overall, i'm having a huge success. Basically, that's double upgrade lings before lair, into +2/+2 lings and LOT of infestors.
When he goes out, you counter attack with your lings. +2/+2 lings destroy bases pretty easily :p
Lost of infestors, because you'll waste thousands of fungles before catching the mutas. But usually i just kill my opponents with the +2/+2 lings xD
Against Roach/Hydra, i go swarmhost instead of infestors.
how do you deal with banes? I know you can micro around them, but 1 mistake can easily cost you the game also, he won't necessarily need to micro his banes and you'll need to micro your infestors and your lings at different places
On April 03 2013 01:34 sixpoolOMG wrote: Hey I have one question if you want to go Mutas in ZvP which are the factors that maked decide you to go for them, and do you prefer to go mass mutas or just a few and then transition, but in to what? And my last question is how is the best way to defend untill you get mutas if he goes for 2 base allins or early attacks in general.
I appologize for any mistakes I have in the text :S Thanks!
General consensus on going muta is that you don't want to go muta against stargate openings. I think it's best against either a robo expand (multi-prong harass) or against a robo all-in (basetrade). I don't think it'd work particularly well against twlight/templar styles, but not sure. Defending against a 2-base all-in can be done either with roach-ling, or if it's late enough, with a base trade. Lastly, muta styles can be played either mass or with transitions, though personally I prefer a transition (into ultra). It depends on how toss responds. if they try to hit you with a big 3 base colossus army before you could effectively transition, base-trade is best. if they try to defend with blink and tech to Phoenix, that gives you an opportunity to transition. This is my personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt. if a pro wants to weigh in, that would be better.
edit: missed blades's response on the previous page. hadn't thought about a swarm host transition.
I was using the style blade recommended in his HoTS zerg overview against protoss and went against somebody who built a large void ray army, with no other units. He cannon walled his base off in the first few minutes so I expanded an extra amount and ocassionally checked to see if he had killed one of the cannons to allow any units out. I scouted him with an overlord and saw he built 4 Stargates. I had been building Hydralisks and Swarm hosts to defend against any attack so I started sieging the cannons with the Hosts but he overpowered me with 20 void rays. I had 30 Hydralisks, 1 Roach and 6 Swarm hosts. I'm not sure how to defeat this. I also had 2/2 and he had no upgrades. tl;dr How do I defeat 20 void rays around 18 minutes?
On April 04 2013 17:07 RandomQueen wrote: Plat Zerg here.
Can you guys please tell me a short list of 1-base common pushes and attacks timings from Protoss / Terran ? Like 4g, DTs, Air harass...
Second question, at what time should I prepare for that kind of attack ? I heard vs Protoss it is 5:00 if no natural (I usualy prepare for it between 6:00 and 6:30, maybe I'm too late) ? The question is : at what time when I scout no natural should I think "well, lets prepare for it" ?
Thanks
Sorry to bump this, but the subject for timings is only for WoL (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400). Do someone planned to update it for Hots or is it too early ?
On April 05 2013 11:07 zyberjunior wrote: I was using the style blade recommended in his HoTS zerg overview against protoss and went against somebody who built a large void ray army, with no other units. He cannon walled his base off in the first few minutes so I expanded an extra amount and ocassionally checked to see if he had killed one of the cannons to allow any units out. I scouted him with an overlord and saw he built 4 Stargates. I had been building Hydralisks and Swarm hosts to defend against any attack so I started sieging the cannons with the Hosts but he overpowered me with 20 void rays. I had 30 Hydralisks, 1 Roach and 6 Swarm hosts. I'm not sure how to defeat this. I also had 2/2 and he had no upgrades. tl;dr How do I defeat 20 void rays around 18 minutes?
k so the swarmhosts were still good to do (you want more then 6). Make sure you are getting upgrades.
Now if you are facing pure voidray you will lose the first engagement, there is nothing you can do about that. You will be able to do decent damage, but his army will still be strong. Your remax (and you should have more then enough) should finish him off as you should easily be able to deny his 4'th base while you should be mass expoing while doing this.
How to deal with Terran mid-to-late game? I often on ladder find myself after the muta transition into ultraling/bane/infestor/leftovers of muta army/vipers. And with this army Im 100% able to beat his army IF its on my side of map. I feel that even tough I win the fights and try to counter I voluntary fck myself over. The position with bio vs ultras beind depos/raxes/etc. IS always crusihing and if you miss mine here or there all your infestors/banes can die. GSTL spoiler + Show Spoiler +
Prime example of what im trying to tell was today game in GSTL Yoda vs Scarlett where she foudn herself in such position and went for that counter attack and had even decent supply lead(60ish). Yoda knew it could happen and even then he proceeded to drop - when massively behind on army supply. And the counter didnt work because of the position with mines and bio was so strong she couldnt push and lost her lead.
So what im getting at is would it be correct way to play; every time you win fight expand and defend and build up BL army? But then again viking+mine zoning would probably beat it.
At what point if at all do you send a drone scout, I was thinking of sending my drone built on 8 supply to scout and check for cheese (Which I often lose to) to delay buildings like F/E and Barracks or to harass perhaps Huk style regarding minerals.
Below is my rough build order, I feel it's good for all comers and could catch some people out? I also feel the transition into mutalisks relatively early would be good for ZvZ and for harassment against others races to perhaps pull them out of position.
On April 06 2013 06:48 vojnik wrote: I want to ask the pros a simple question, do you cross out any maps on ladder and why (for each one) ? I am still in dilemma which to veto.
Thanks
I veto'd 2 maps.
newkirk and korhal compound. Both are awful maps and newkirk is a bitch especially sense that map tends to have a lot of split map scenarios T_T.
What should be my late game compsition vs toss, when he has a nice daethball with archons templars, collosus and void rays.. I dont let him get more than 3 bases but he still masses an army like that and I cant do nothing with my swarm host roach hydra composition. Ultras or Brood Lords? i got the feeling that both are bad vs toss now :/
On April 04 2013 17:59 Magus.421 wrote: Low master Zerg here.
I'm just sick of ZvZ
I feel like the only option in the ZvZ midgame is mutalisk and i can't see any other choice. If i try a fast 3rd with roach/hydralisk, i just lose against speedling/baneling/mutalisk. I tried infestors but it's really hard to catch mutalisk (and i you catch mutalisks, you MUST have enough fungals to kill them).
Do you know some standard way to play against mutalisk in ZvZ without mutalisk ?
Thanks.
Suppy,
I was watching you stream last night and you were experimenting with a new Z v Z build intended to counter standard muta play. I think you were playing against Guts with Gowser (not sure on spelling) observing. It seemed to work fairly well in that you won 3 straight games. Any chance that you could provide any details on that build? I too am looking for the meta to shift from mutas/timings.
Thanks, Alex
Hey DrAIWazzy,
Yes I am in fact experimenting with new ZvZ styles. I did two on that streaming session, one was the "Goswser build" which he showcased on NASL ZvZ Coaching with MrBitter - there's a link here http://nasl.tv/Videos/nasl-zvz-with-mrbitter-part-1 In Part 2 Goswser plays, and Part 3 MrBitter plays with Goswser coaching. It's a very interesting style that I think can be very effective!
The other style I did was 1/1 lings into infestors + hive. It's a very strong style, but a little more difficult now that mutas are faster and fungal is a projectile, making it more difficult to hit mutas. Basically you go standard, get speed, bane nest, then one evo for +1 carapace, one evo for +1 melee, and a gas when that 2nd evo starts. Next 100 gas goes to Lair, 7:30 you want a third expansion up, and start pumping lings when you have full saturation on 2 base. They will have mutas by around 9:30 but you'll have a solid window of like 1 minute where your +1 carapace (and soon +1 melee) lings will dominate, as they won't die to banelings in one hit. Once mutas are out, you can continue pumping lings to ensure that the enemy can never come to your side of the map until you have spores ready (which are really the premises of these two builds, since spores are so good now).
Really just new ways to play that will take more fleshing out to figure out, but potentially a nice alternative to muta every game! I'll give more details as I experiment with it more and figure more out about it.
I have been doing similar build in mid masters eu. It has worked woderfully against muta, but what do you do if opponent randomly goes 3th base and roach? One game opponent did that, im prety sure i would have easely won if i just went spire. Should i just try to scout it and go spire instead?
I was watching you stream last night and you were experimenting with a new Z v Z build intended to counter standard muta play. I think you were playing against Guts with Gowser (not sure on spelling) observing. It seemed to work fairly well in that you won 3 straight games. Any chance that you could provide any details on that build? I too am looking for the meta to shift from mutas/timings.
Thanks, Alex
I think there's is a huge mistake :D I don't stream and i don't know any Gowser or Guts.
I don't know why he quoted you but he did say suppy
Hehe
I saw what Suppy did. I do it too for 1 week, and overall, i'm having a huge success. Basically, that's double upgrade lings before lair, into +2/+2 lings and LOT of infestors.
When he goes out, you counter attack with your lings. +2/+2 lings destroy bases pretty easily :p
Lost of infestors, because you'll waste thousands of fungles before catching the mutas. But usually i just kill my opponents with the +2/+2 lings xD
Against Roach/Hydra, i go swarmhost instead of infestors.
how do you deal with banes? I know you can micro around them, but 1 mistake can easily cost you the game also, he won't necessarily need to micro his banes and you'll need to micro your infestors and your lings at different places
As 1/1 lings survive to banes, its not really a problem. You can fungle them if there are a lot of banes.
It can be pretty apm intensive since you have to manage 2 fronts at once, but if you dont like muta and you want to try something else, its very strong. (but you need a good multitasking, if you dont, just play defensive mass muta style, it will be better.)
I have a huge problem in ZvT, especially against a T who goes reaper opening / or 15 cc into reactor hellions (or mines if he sees roaches). Then he gets third CC inbase very quick with like 1-2reapers and 4-6 hellions as his only units. He then transitions into mass biomine play with good macro and kills me midgame.
I feel like i would either kill or get a decent advantage if i made a 28 warren and went for a roach bust.. but I dont want to do that everygame. I usually try to emulate life's zvt with quick speed, quick third, then transition into muta/ling and then ultras... but this greedy opening just kills me.
On April 06 2013 19:23 Rizell wrote: Mid-High Masters here.
I have a huge problem in ZvT, especially against a T who goes reaper opening / or 15 cc into reactor hellions (or mines if he sees roaches). Then he gets third CC inbase very quick with like 1-2reapers and 4-6 hellions as his only units. He then transitions into mass biomine play with good macro and kills me midgame.
I feel like i would either kill or get a decent advantage if i made a 28 warren and went for a roach bust.. but I dont want to do that everygame. I usually try to emulate life's zvt with quick speed, quick third, then transition into muta/ling and then ultras... but this greedy opening just kills me.
Any advice?
You are right about the roachpressure. Its is indeed powerful in this situation.The last two weeks i've been winning vs reaper openings almost every game. I know you were looking for something besides this but i can give my two cents and maybe we are going on at this differently. Mostly because i have not had any success versus this in any other way.
I defend the reapers standard. 3 drones always follow and morphs to spores when damaged and if not proxy i make no lings. Just drones and one queen per hatch til 32 supply when i make roach warren. Continue droning until RW @ 50%, make 4 overlords and idle til completion. You will afford exactly 10 roaches which will sometimes do game-ending damage.
Regardless of outcome i take my 3rd immediately after the 10 roaches is in production and i keep droning heavily untill the roaches are dead. If the damage done is critical i max out on roach at around 11:30 and finish it off. Same thing regardless of damage done if i face mech. If so, i also research OL-drop for efficiency.
If the damage done is pretty low and i face BIO i go for the Life-style with muta/ling/bane into ultras. Two EVOs efter the 3rd is placed lets you keep up with the terran in upgrades nicely.
I find that I am almost always able to completely saturate three bases and start the proper 1/1 and lair during the duration of the roach pressure which makes the situation desirable.
In my opinion you should exploit the flaws in buildorders. When Terran open reaper into hellion this flat out kills the opponents at my (master) level. Versus reaper->mine->mech you as well are very far ahead. The worst case scenario is probably reaper->mines->BIO. With proper defense you never end the game but you always kill SCVs and delay mining while you drone up to 70.
Go with it for a few days, its fun! Makes for a action-heavy game instead of that regular WoL play with the first real engagement at 12min.
I have a question for LiquidSnute. A few days ago I watched your stream (which is the best ever btw) and you played a ZvZ. You decided to go BanelingNest before Metabolic Boost and commented it with "I hope he didnt see that I went Bane Nest before Metabolic Boost". Now my question is how would knowing my opponent goes Baneling Nest before Metabolic Boost help me and how could I exploit that.
On April 06 2013 19:23 Rizell wrote: Mid-High Masters here.
I have a huge problem in ZvT, especially against a T who goes reaper opening / or 15 cc into reactor hellions (or mines if he sees roaches). Then he gets third CC inbase very quick with like 1-2reapers and 4-6 hellions as his only units. He then transitions into mass biomine play with good macro and kills me midgame.
I feel like i would either kill or get a decent advantage if i made a 28 warren and went for a roach bust.. but I dont want to do that everygame. I usually try to emulate life's zvt with quick speed, quick third, then transition into muta/ling and then ultras... but this greedy opening just kills me.
Any advice?
You are right about the roachpressure. Its is indeed powerful in this situation.The last two weeks i've been winning vs reaper openings almost every game. I know you were looking for something besides this but i can give my two cents and maybe we are going on at this differently. Mostly because i have not had any success versus this in any other way.
I defend the reapers standard. 3 drones always follow and morphs to spores when damaged and if not proxy i make no lings. Just drones and one queen per hatch til 32 supply when i make roach warren. Continue droning until RW @ 50%, make 4 overlords and idle til completion. You will afford exactly 10 roaches which will sometimes do game-ending damage.
Regardless of outcome i take my 3rd immediately after the 10 roaches is in production and i keep droning heavily untill the roaches are dead. If the damage done is critical i max out on roach at around 11:30 and finish it off. Same thing regardless of damage done if i face mech. If so, i also research OL-drop for efficiency.
If the damage done is pretty low and i face BIO i go for the Life-style with muta/ling/bane into ultras. Two EVOs efter the 3rd is placed lets you keep up with the terran in upgrades nicely.
I find that I am almost always able to completely saturate three bases and start the proper 1/1 and lair during the duration of the roach pressure which makes the situation desirable.
In my opinion you should exploit the flaws in buildorders. When Terran open reaper into hellion this flat out kills the opponents at my (master) level. Versus reaper->mine->mech you as well are very far ahead. The worst case scenario is probably reaper->mines->BIO. With proper defense you never end the game but you always kill SCVs and delay mining while you drone up to 70.
Go with it for a few days, its fun! Makes for a action-heavy game instead of that regular WoL play with the first real engagement at 12min.
Cheers!
Do you only do this if you scout gas opening? (I always 10 drone scout). Do you have any VOD's of any pro doing this? So i can steal the timings abit more accuratley.
I've been thinking about the current zvz and I have a suggestion. I'm trying it now myself but would love to hear what you think anyway. The idea is to counter muta with defensive muta into early muta-infestor. Basically you go muta just as usuall but the second your third is up you throw down double spores in every base and drop the Infestion pit then make just 2/3 infestors. The idea behind this is that Infestor transition is usally so hard becuase the more mutas there are the stronger they become so a infestor transtion should be easier earlier rather then later. You don't need more then a couple infestors to dramaticly shit the balance of the game and finish with just ling muta. So basically you'll be about 4-5 mutas behind your opponent. You make up for this by being VERY defensive with your mutas, fighting only over spores ( hence the infestor transition only after the spores are up in your third ). The aim is to do a double fungal on his mutas ( Ideally near a spore ) then clean up with your mutas, if you get a double fungal your 5 muta deficit is nothing and you shred his muta ball, you're now massively ahead in a muta vs muta game and we all know how that ends up. Note, Becuase I only make a very few infestors and have no plan to use them beyond winning one amazingly decisive muta battle and then winning with my mutas I don't research the Energy upgrade. I know that slightly delays my first fungal but I feel that I need every drop a gas. What do you think?
On April 07 2013 00:30 SharpFlex wrote: I have a question for LiquidSnute. A few days ago I watched your stream (which is the best ever btw) and you played a ZvZ. You decided to go BanelingNest before Metabolic Boost and commented it with "I hope he didnt see that I went Bane Nest before Metabolic Boost". Now my question is how would knowing my opponent goes Baneling Nest before Metabolic Boost help me and how could I exploit that.
Without Ling speed you can't possibly be aggressive even if you have banelings, the opponent could go up to 44 drones without making a single unit or take a fast third and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
I'm happy to see this thread, thank you TL and all pros to help us.
Here are my questions :
ZvP : With HOTS, Protoss has more options to open. Which units combo would you use again a stargate pressure into 3 bases void ray/templar + units ? It seems Zerg should attack before the protoss got his units up but it's easier to defend than to attack.
On April 06 2013 19:23 Rizell wrote: Mid-High Masters here.
I have a huge problem in ZvT, especially against a T who goes reaper opening / or 15 cc into reactor hellions (or mines if he sees roaches). Then he gets third CC inbase very quick with like 1-2reapers and 4-6 hellions as his only units. He then transitions into mass biomine play with good macro and kills me midgame.
I feel like i would either kill or get a decent advantage if i made a 28 warren and went for a roach bust.. but I dont want to do that everygame. I usually try to emulate life's zvt with quick speed, quick third, then transition into muta/ling and then ultras... but this greedy opening just kills me.
Any advice?
You are right about the roachpressure. Its is indeed powerful in this situation.The last two weeks i've been winning vs reaper openings almost every game. I know you were looking for something besides this but i can give my two cents and maybe we are going on at this differently. Mostly because i have not had any success versus this in any other way.
I defend the reapers standard. 3 drones always follow and morphs to spores when damaged and if not proxy i make no lings. Just drones and one queen per hatch til 32 supply when i make roach warren. Continue droning until RW @ 50%, make 4 overlords and idle til completion. You will afford exactly 10 roaches which will sometimes do game-ending damage.
Regardless of outcome i take my 3rd immediately after the 10 roaches is in production and i keep droning heavily untill the roaches are dead. If the damage done is critical i max out on roach at around 11:30 and finish it off. Same thing regardless of damage done if i face mech. If so, i also research OL-drop for efficiency.
If the damage done is pretty low and i face BIO i go for the Life-style with muta/ling/bane into ultras. Two EVOs efter the 3rd is placed lets you keep up with the terran in upgrades nicely.
I find that I am almost always able to completely saturate three bases and start the proper 1/1 and lair during the duration of the roach pressure which makes the situation desirable.
In my opinion you should exploit the flaws in buildorders. When Terran open reaper into hellion this flat out kills the opponents at my (master) level. Versus reaper->mine->mech you as well are very far ahead. The worst case scenario is probably reaper->mines->BIO. With proper defense you never end the game but you always kill SCVs and delay mining while you drone up to 70.
Go with it for a few days, its fun! Makes for a action-heavy game instead of that regular WoL play with the first real engagement at 12min.
Cheers!
Do you only do this if you scout gas opening? (I always 10 drone scout). Do you have any VOD's of any pro doing this? So i can steal the timings abit more accuratley.
Personally I do this vs CC first (all followups) and reaper openers. The reaper opener is very often followed by hellions in the current EU meta game, and/or by widow mines. Versus both of these you can deal a great lot of damage. Versus non-factory openers you should avoid it, since you get very denied.
I got my exact BO from Snute and his first game on Daybreak vs WW.Sting on the ESET UK Master finals.
http://www.twitch.tv/esetukmasters/b/381873207 <--- Here you have the VOD, the game were talking about starts at approximately 1 hour and 37 minutes. Take note about that sweet drone pull off gas to fake ling speed before canceling it again and putting drones back on. Nice trick if you don't get rid of the SCV when the RW timing is closing in.
Hello guys, and thanks for your time. I am a mid masters player and am struggling with bio mine in zvt. It seems like dealing with the mines takes such a huge amount of micro that i cant keep up with that on top of defending drops and macro etc where i don't have this problem in other matchups. Any tips for this? Or what unit comp/strategy do you guys thinks works best?
On April 09 2013 08:43 gahndi wrote: Hello guys, and thanks for your time. I am a mid masters player and am struggling with bio mine in zvt. It seems like dealing with the mines takes such a huge amount of micro that i cant keep up with that on top of defending drops and macro etc where i don't have this problem in other matchups. Any tips for this? Or what unit comp/strategy do you guys thinks works best?
I find ling/bane/muta as the most viable option. Always bring overseers with you and a-move with a small bunch of lings to trigger the mines. Transition into ling/bane/ultra and dont sacrifice your mutas, they are vital in defending drops for the remainder of the game. Your are right about the point with the micro. Personally i like it. ZvT was so very broken to our favor in WoL were a massive amount of micro were necessary from the Terran while we could amove and just right-click our banelings after the marines. The changes makes for a very dynamic match up in my opinion.
Im not a pro and I do play at around your level, but i though that my two cents were better than nothing since you very often wait forever for a response in the thread.
Hey, what do you think of the 2base 1/1 lings into 3base ultralisk style koreans did on dreamhack? I dont understant why they open 2base it just seem inferior to me in every way to standart 3base opening. Im sure at least euro guys know that dimaga has been doing this ultra/queen/ling style for quite a while with (great) success now and he opens always 3base. Whats the advantage of the 2base and why they do it? Im sure there is a reason, but im probably way too low level to see it.
Hi, with current ZvZ metagame, i feel completely frustrated playing it, I have been trying different tactics, but most of them have been invain, I have high hopes that one of you will come with an idea against it (like hydra timing /bling /zling timing off 2 base)
Recently on ladder I've come across opponents in ZvZ who decide to opt for heavily upgraded lings and just constantly swarm my bases with them, I'm talking waves and waves of around 15-30 lings constantly coming. Banelings don't seemt o work because of the lings upgrades, and mutas just can't keep up with the lings. So, what would be the best option playing against this upgraded ling counter-attack style?
On April 29 2013 23:02 sgtjimmy wrote: Recently on ladder I've come across opponents in ZvZ who decide to opt for heavily upgraded lings and just constantly swarm my bases with them, I'm talking waves and waves of around 15-30 lings constantly coming. Banelings don't seemt o work because of the lings upgrades, and mutas just can't keep up with the lings. So, what would be the best option playing against this upgraded ling counter-attack style?
Master zerg here here. I just add some spines (2-3), and block my ramp with evo and queens (2 queen or more), protoss style, while teaching to mutas. When mutas are in the air its gg because usually no lair for the oponent with this strategy. Just read the game, if you can stop first wave, is easy to defeat, block as fast as possible and no way for the speedlings
How do you play against Marine/Hellbat/Medivacs with ling/baneling/Mutas? I just can´t seem to trade anywhere near cost efficient, if my opponent does not do any big mistakes. And whenever I see Demuslim doing it on stream he steamrolls his opponent.
On May 01 2013 05:22 TearDrop wrote: How do you play against Marine/Hellbat/Medivacs with ling/baneling/Mutas? I just can´t seem to trade anywhere near cost efficient, if my opponent does not do any big mistakes. And whenever I see Demuslim doing it on stream he steamrolls his opponent.
I have only faced that style once and lost with muta/ling/bane I feel like muta/ling/bane/roach will be a strong counter to it. That's what I am going to start doing anyway.
OMG i was watching TLO's stream the other day... Him and Spanishiwa are really the only two streams i watch (im gonna start watching Blades cuz i really like his HotS strats) because they are my 2 favorite players. Anyhow, TLO's APM is def lower than spanishiwa's, but TLO is just freaking epically good. I watched him play against the same grandmaster terran 3 times in a row on ladder and just utterly own this poor guy hardcore... was epic... anyhow i digress...
In zvz im at the level where i have down a two base all in ling/bane attack which is pretty successful and grants me >50% wins on the ladder but the problem is that i feel i am cheapening myself by not playing out a longer game and learning how. I occationally try to play the game out but seems like i always just end up losing to ling all in b4 i can even get into the game... Ive seen this happen to Z's at all levels of play so i know there is no hard and fast answer but in general what strats can you use early on to constantly (like every 45 seconds or so) be scouting ur oppenent to know if he has suddenly stopped drone production and is getting ready to all in u...
On April 07 2013 02:09 IcemanAsi wrote: I've been thinking about the current zvz and I have a suggestion. I'm trying it now myself but would love to hear what you think anyway. The idea is to counter muta with defensive muta into early muta-infestor. Basically you go muta just as usuall but the second your third is up you throw down double spores in every base and drop the Infestion pit then make just 2/3 infestors. The idea behind this is that Infestor transition is usally so hard becuase the more mutas there are the stronger they become so a infestor transtion should be easier earlier rather then later. You don't need more then a couple infestors to dramaticly shit the balance of the game and finish with just ling muta. So basically you'll be about 4-5 mutas behind your opponent. You make up for this by being VERY defensive with your mutas, fighting only over spores ( hence the infestor transition only after the spores are up in your third ). The aim is to do a double fungal on his mutas ( Ideally near a spore ) then clean up with your mutas, if you get a double fungal your 5 muta deficit is nothing and you shred his muta ball, you're now massively ahead in a muta vs muta game and we all know how that ends up. Note, Becuase I only make a very few infestors and have no plan to use them beyond winning one amazingly decisive muta battle and then winning with my mutas I don't research the Energy upgrade. I know that slightly delays my first fungal but I feel that I need every drop a gas. What do you think?
This is usually only something you try when behind because it's a gamble. If they only try to engage front-on during this transition you will survive and gain a big advantage with your infestors, however if they use their mutas to zone between say, your main and natural, whilst their lingbane charges into your main, you will lose your main base (or fly through the mutas to try to save it). Now you can technically stop the lingbane getting up that ramp (or to your 3rd or wherever) but it's very hard to have good enough spore coverage on ALL these spots, that's ALOT of minerals not on zerglings and so they can usually overwhelm with huge ling attacks.
That being said it's a pretty good gamble especially at lower levels (where players are less aggressive generally) as attacking in muta v muta usually strongly favours the defender.
On May 01 2013 05:43 Empedocles wrote: OMG i was watching TLO's stream the other day... Him and Spanishiwa are really the only two streams i watch (im gonna start watching Blades cuz i really like his HotS strats) because they are my 2 favorite players. Anyhow, TLO's APM is def lower than spanishiwa's, but TLO is just freaking epically good. I watched him play against the same grandmaster terran 3 times in a row on ladder and just utterly own this poor guy hardcore... was epic... anyhow i digress...
In zvz im at the level where i have down a two base all in ling/bane attack which is pretty successful and grants me >50% wins on the ladder but the problem is that i feel i am cheapening myself by not playing out a longer game and learning how. I occationally try to play the game out but seems like i always just end up losing to ling all in b4 i can even get into the game... Ive seen this happen to Z's at all levels of play so i know there is no hard and fast answer but in general what strats can you use early on to constantly (like every 45 seconds or so) be scouting ur oppenent to know if he has suddenly stopped drone production and is getting ready to all in u...
Thanks!
_Emp
Always have 4 'safety banelings' on your ramp from now on to stop the power of these sort of attacks. Another general tip is drop a bane nest and spine at your natural at 5:00 every game (vs an expanding opponent) to be safe from most ling and lingbane timings.
As for scouting the most effective ways to constantly scout if your opponent is going to hit a timing is to peek an overlord in behind their natural mineral line and see if they are still building drones. Also darting a ling in the front to check their natural gas is a great indicator, the faster gas, the more tech, the later, the more chance of a timing hitting you! Remember lings are only 25 minerals and 1/2 a larva each so they are expendable.
Considering how popular gate expand has become for protoss is it now worth it to drone scout on 10 and go for hatch 1st into pool or even doulbe hatch before pool ( if they expand -> forge ) ?
On May 03 2013 03:02 IcemanAsi wrote: Considering how popular gate expand has become for protoss is it now worth it to drone scout on 10 and go for hatch 1st into pool or even doulbe hatch before pool ( if they expand -> forge ) ?
well double hatch before pool seems suicidal against a gate expand to me. regular 15 hatch might be viable but on a two player map they are liable to hatch block you if you try to hatch first. If somehow you can scout that they're gate expanding before the probe arrives and then get a hatch down it might be worthwhile, but odds of that seem low. If you have good odds that they will gate expand (you know their style) then hatch before pool seems like a good idea.
On May 01 2013 05:22 TearDrop wrote: How do you play against Marine/Hellbat/Medivacs with ling/baneling/Mutas? I just can´t seem to trade anywhere near cost efficient, if my opponent does not do any big mistakes. And whenever I see Demuslim doing it on stream he steamrolls his opponent.
I've encountered this, I counter it with mass baneling/infestor. Both marines and hellbats are light ground units, so they quickly fall to banelings. Infestors are there to prevent them from escaping the banelings. As soon as you see terran doing this, cut mutas and start making infestors. Only make enough mutas to kill dropping medivacs.
Hi. Im a low masters zerg player having an EXTREMELY large amount of problems in holding off ling/bane or ling attacks early game in zvz. I lose to the stupidest things. "Stupidest things" is a unproffesional way of saying things, but when you lose to someone who makes a macro hatch before an expo's cheese. you know you need help. PM me or respond to this on the thread if you can help me with this. Ill send you my skype after sop we can examine it and analyze. I dont want to post them here because Ill look bad.
What do you think about ling heavy plays in ZvZ with getting +1 carapace or even +1/+1 before spire ? Do you think they are viable safe option to go or do you think they are allins ? If they are ok why are they so unpopular ?
Hi, Thank you very much for helping us, I for one appreciate it.
HOTS, dealing with voids early to mid game.
The other day I lost horribly trying to engage a army with voids in them. I think I had more than enough hydras but must have done something wrong. I see they asked us not to post replays, thus the edit.
Anyway, I engaged a Protoss ball with about 10 voids in it. I had 27 hydras and 14 roaches, he killed every last unit before i managed to kill one void. I do not understand how that was even possible.
So the question: What is your advice in engaging a Protoss ball as Zerg that has got majority voids in it?
Before I start, I just wanted to say thanks for answer my question and we all appreciate it.
I'm a mid-diamond Zerg. But recently I have been scratching my head to find the underlying reasoning for gas timings. Here is what I got so far for ZvT: - we get double evo and 3rd hatch then 2nd and 3rd gas. This is because we can time out the upgrades as soon as the evo chambers finish and we have enough economy to support it. But I feel like there's much more under the gas timings.
What is the ratio of mineral drones compared to the gas drones? Any basic gas timings you guys can give out and explain to us? Any basic concepts that you may offer?
Before I start, I just wanted to say thanks for answer my question and we all appreciate it.
I'm a mid-diamond Zerg. But recently I have been scratching my head to find the underlying reasoning for gas timings. Here is what I got so far for ZvT: - we get double evo and 3rd hatch then 2nd and 3rd gas. This is because we can time out the upgrades as soon as the evo chambers finish and we have enough economy to support it. But I feel like there's much more under the gas timings.
What is the ratio of mineral drones compared to the gas drones? Any basic gas timings you guys can give out and explain to us? Any basic concepts that you may offer?
Thanks a bunch!
I think these questions are a little vague. I mean 1. It depends on what strategy you're doing 2. Gas timings are kinda reactive to what your opponent is doing and what you are aiming to do and 3. Basic concepts for what? Playing zerg in general or basic concepts in relation to gas taking?
On May 15 2013 01:57 yanzi wrote: What do you think about ling heavy plays in ZvZ with getting +1 carapace or even +1/+1 before spire ? Do you think they are viable safe option to go or do you think they are allins ? If they are ok why are they so unpopular ?
Ling heavy play whether it's +1 carpace or 1/1 is sort of an all in because you do have to do damage. A thing you have to remember is your lair tech is really late. If you don't do damage and he holds perfectly while teching to mutalisks you are going to be behind in tech and economy which is never good.
They are actually pretty popular just not standard because there are some vulnerabilities.
On May 15 2013 01:57 yanzi wrote: What do you think about ling heavy plays in ZvZ with getting +1 carapace or even +1/+1 before spire ? Do you think they are viable safe option to go or do you think they are allins ? If they are ok why are they so unpopular ?
Ling heavy play whether it's +1 carpace or 1/1 is sort of an all in because you do have to do damage. A thing you have to remember is your lair tech is really late. If you don't do damage and he holds perfectly while teching to mutalisks you are going to be behind in tech and economy which is never good.
They are actually pretty popular just not standard because there are some vulnerabilities.
Hi blade. Me and some other people over in the normal zerg help me thread were wondering on how you defend against this. You say it's sort of all-in but every time I face 1/1 lings I well just lose. I can't really get my third of and even if my mutas can defend somewhat i can't move out while he is free to expand. How do you react to this? do you get 1/1 yourself? When do you take a third? banelings?
On May 15 2013 01:57 yanzi wrote: What do you think about ling heavy plays in ZvZ with getting +1 carapace or even +1/+1 before spire ? Do you think they are viable safe option to go or do you think they are allins ? If they are ok why are they so unpopular ?
Ling heavy play whether it's +1 carpace or 1/1 is sort of an all in because you do have to do damage. A thing you have to remember is your lair tech is really late. If you don't do damage and he holds perfectly while teching to mutalisks you are going to be behind in tech and economy which is never good.
They are actually pretty popular just not standard because there are some vulnerabilities.
Hi blade. Me and some other people over in the normal zerg help me thread were wondering on how you defend against this. You say it's sort of all-in but every time I face 1/1 lings I well just lose. I can't really get my third of and even if my mutas can defend somewhat i can't move out while he is free to expand. How do you react to this? do you get 1/1 yourself? When do you take a third? banelings?
This really depends. If you scout them doing 1/1 and he doesn't have a baneling nest just do a ling/bane all in and you win. You can also just do a ling/bane all in anyway once you see it coming and try to kill him before.
The method I do is I get +1 melee and just rely on ling + banes while waiting for mutalisks. The +1 melee is so that I can kill lings in 1 hit with banelings which makes defending the 1/1 defense a lot easier. You can do double upgrades, but I go mutalisks still so I prefer just getting +1 melee.
You can also do roach/ling/bane as well which is a pretty hard counter. If you can scout it early enough and you do a reactive roach/ling/bane all in you win unless he scouts it and makes a bunch of spines.
On May 18 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote: The method I do is I get +1 melee and just rely on ling + banes while waiting for mutalisks. The +1 melee is so that I can kill lings in 1 hit with banelings which makes defending the 1/1 defense a lot easier. You can do double upgrades, but I go mutalisks still so I prefer just getting +1 melee.
Do you have any replays showing this style? I know you uploaded a replay pack in the past Maybe one of your nice youtube videos? And thanks for taking the time answering questions, much appreciated. You already answered a question of mine earlier in this thread so seems time to show it's appreciated:D
On May 15 2013 21:48 ZedraC wrote: Hi, Thank you very much for helping us, I for one appreciate it.
HOTS, dealing with voids early to mid game.
The other day I lost horribly trying to engage a army with voids in them. I think I had more than enough hydras but must have done something wrong. I see they asked us not to post replays, thus the edit.
Anyway, I engaged a Protoss ball with about 10 voids in it. I had 27 hydras and 14 roaches, he killed every last unit before i managed to kill one void. I do not understand how that was even possible.
So the question: What is your advice in engaging a Protoss ball as Zerg that has got majority voids in it?
Did he open up FFE?
Or gate expand?
IF he has 10 Voids it sounds closer to late game? There are timing windows where you can do serious damage to the toss before he has 10 void. But if you don't, and need to kill an army like that, You need a few infesters to keep the voids at bay. Voids clump up, so you can pin down half of the voids usually, so your hydra can own the ones not fungled.
OR. if you have several vipers. You can pull half of the voids into the middle of your hydra army.
On May 15 2013 21:48 ZedraC wrote: Hi, Thank you very much for helping us, I for one appreciate it.
HOTS, dealing with voids early to mid game.
The other day I lost horribly trying to engage a army with voids in them. I think I had more than enough hydras but must have done something wrong. I see they asked us not to post replays, thus the edit.
Anyway, I engaged a Protoss ball with about 10 voids in it. I had 27 hydras and 14 roaches, he killed every last unit before i managed to kill one void. I do not understand how that was even possible.
So the question: What is your advice in engaging a Protoss ball as Zerg that has got majority voids in it?
Heya, I played a game vs a toss who just went mass voidray and then added HT. Although I made a few mistakes, I think I dealt with it pretty well (Mid-high master zerg). I could upload the replay if you would like to see it - just let me know.
I play Starcraft II since 2011 (Zerg) and after 2-3 seasons i kinda stabilized myself in high master after all my games. I played about 70gms and lost about 55 of them! I feel grandmasters are just a lot better than masters overall. I don't know how to get this far... What do you guys think is the biggest difference between any gm and a master player? What makes you guys grandmaster and me a master player?
It's a ZvT where my Terran opponent is going for a Thor/Tank/Hellbat/Raven Composition and I can't even think about what beats it. Now, I'm completely aware I was outplayed as I should be ( my opponent here is a past GM player, and I'm anything but ) but I felt that I held the early aggression well and took a 4th a bit late but not hugely so. Thing is that once I saw he's composition I was sure I can't break his 3rd/4th and was too scared to move out, and I was also really unsure as to what I should even build in this case. My greatest mistake was not scouting he was moving out on 18:00 and basically losing my 4th for free but I don't think I could have held it even if scouted. I did punish his army after losing the base but was it too late by then?
Please have a look at the game and I would appreciate any suggestion on what I could have done better and whats the right composition against what he did. Thanks.
On May 18 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote: The method I do is I get +1 melee and just rely on ling + banes while waiting for mutalisks. The +1 melee is so that I can kill lings in 1 hit with banelings which makes defending the 1/1 defense a lot easier. You can do double upgrades, but I go mutalisks still so I prefer just getting +1 melee.
Do you have any replays showing this style? I know you uploaded a replay pack in the past Maybe one of your nice youtube videos? And thanks for taking the time answering questions, much appreciated. You already answered a question of mine earlier in this thread so seems time to show it's appreciated:D
Um I would have to do some digging because it's mainly a popular NA strategy (from what I have seen anyway I don't face it that much on kr). I well make sure to save my next few wins vs it and probably do a video over it hehe
I think this has been asked before but here goes anyway. How do pro players play Zerg in terms of mechanics? I've been thinking a bit as to how to get shiny, smooth macro and here are some of my thoughts.
A good Zerg (probably true for other races) would want to have a sort of cycle in how they do different things. For example, early-mid game Zerg will do something like this in their "cycle".
1. Inject 2. Use larvae (drones or units depending on circumstance) 3. Spread Creep 5. Make 2 or 3 Overlords 6. Scout and think 7. Act accordingly to step 6 (expand/pressure/upgrade/tech w/e?) 8. Back to step 1 (step 2 depends on step 6).
Something like a mid-game TvZ where drops can happen:
8. Back to step 1 (step 2 depends on step 6). 8.5. Watch map
Maybe insert another inject step or another spend larvae step in between steps 5 and 6 or something? Not sure if steps 1 to 8 can be done in less than 45s. I don't know anything. ._.
So, do pro players think like this or something else entirely?
On May 18 2013 08:52 blade55555 wrote: The method I do is I get +1 melee and just rely on ling + banes while waiting for mutalisks. The +1 melee is so that I can kill lings in 1 hit with banelings which makes defending the 1/1 defense a lot easier. You can do double upgrades, but I go mutalisks still so I prefer just getting +1 melee.
Do you have any replays showing this style? I know you uploaded a replay pack in the past Maybe one of your nice youtube videos? And thanks for taking the time answering questions, much appreciated. You already answered a question of mine earlier in this thread so seems time to show it's appreciated:D
Um I would have to do some digging because it's mainly a popular NA strategy (from what I have seen anyway I don't face it that much on kr). I well make sure to save my next few wins vs it and probably do a video over it hehe
Would be very appreciated Since the spore buff I've run into it a couple of times on both eu & na ladder and it's annoying Lowko also did a video about how to execute the strategy a while back so now we need a video on how to counter it^^
Why are zergs at the pro level so conservative with their muta base harass ZvT/ZvP? Are the risks of bouncing from base to base with 20-30 mutas while macroing up really that bad?
On May 23 2013 04:38 ymir233 wrote: Why are zergs at the pro level so conservative with their muta base harass ZvT/ZvP? Are the risks of bouncing from base to base with 20-30 mutas while macroing up really that bad?
I can answer zvt but I don't know what you are talking about in being conservative with muta zvp as I see zergs being super aggressive with them.
zvt the reason they are passive is widow mines as well as you want them to deal with drops. If you are harassing the terran and killing a turret the terran can start dropping while mutalisks are out of position which is really hard to deal with without mutalisks. The threat of running into widow mines + terran drops are the reason why zergs aren't too aggressive with mutalisks in zvt.
On May 23 2013 04:38 ymir233 wrote: Why are zergs at the pro level so conservative with their muta base harass ZvT/ZvP? Are the risks of bouncing from base to base with 20-30 mutas while macroing up really that bad?
I can answer zvt but I don't know what you are talking about in being conservative with muta zvp as I see zergs being super aggressive with them.
zvt the reason they are passive is widow mines as well as you want them to deal with drops. If you are harassing the terran and killing a turret the terran can start dropping while mutalisks are out of position which is really hard to deal with without mutalisks. The threat of running into widow mines + terran drops are the reason why zergs aren't too aggressive with mutalisks in zvt.
Yea I guess the dual pronged threat in ZvT would prevent that...but even in ZvP, I see mutas killing 3-5 probes in the main, then move down to the natural where they kill another 3-5 probes, then general scouting/inactivity for 1-2 game minutes. I guess I'm still used to the doggedness of BW mutas where it was "kill 10+ SCVs with 8-12 mutas or bust" mentality, but I'm not sure why mutas can't be multitasked more to kill at least 10-20 probes.
On May 23 2013 04:38 ymir233 wrote: Why are zergs at the pro level so conservative with their muta base harass ZvT/ZvP? Are the risks of bouncing from base to base with 20-30 mutas while macroing up really that bad?
I can answer zvt but I don't know what you are talking about in being conservative with muta zvp as I see zergs being super aggressive with them.
zvt the reason they are passive is widow mines as well as you want them to deal with drops. If you are harassing the terran and killing a turret the terran can start dropping while mutalisks are out of position which is really hard to deal with without mutalisks. The threat of running into widow mines + terran drops are the reason why zergs aren't too aggressive with mutalisks in zvt.
Yea I guess the dual pronged threat in ZvT would prevent that...but even in ZvP, I see mutas killing 3-5 probes in the main, then move down to the natural where they kill another 3-5 probes, then general scouting/inactivity for 1-2 game minutes. I guess I'm still used to the doggedness of BW mutas where it was "kill 10+ SCVs with 8-12 mutas or bust" mentality, but I'm not sure why mutas can't be multitasked more to kill at least 10-20 probes.
I see mutas kill that many probes all the time. Rarely vs terran you'll get many scv's because of missile turrets already being up but idk I see lots of aggression zvp with mutalisks I just wonder if you aren't watching enough zvp who do muta for it maybe? . But you do have to still be careful you don't want to go inside the toss main then have 40 blink stalkers blink under your mutas because that = many dead muta which you don't want.
Lately throughout all match ups I have been trying to use upgrading ling styles, but often even after getting to hive and ultras im never getting maxed or it takes me a long time to get to max because im constantly trading units. Is this a good or a bad thing? and how do i fix it if its bad?
On May 24 2013 22:24 PhoenixA wrote: Lately throughout all match ups I have been trying to use upgrading ling styles, but often even after getting to hive and ultras im never getting maxed or it takes me a long time to get to max because im constantly trading units. Is this a good or a bad thing? and how do i fix it if its bad?
Whether you are maxed out or not does not really matter in the situation you're describing. What's important is that you trade in a way that makes sense and is as cost efficient as possible.
Hitting 200/200 in itself isn't really a good thing because it limits you from making more units. Direct your attention to how your supply and advantages in the game play out relative to your opponent rather than relative to 200/200.
Being able to push supply up fast and efficiently is very important, but 200/200 isn't really a goal.
I've been scouting with my drone in ZvT (on maps with 2 players) on 10 supply (I found that if you send it after, you have to stockpile ressources before beeing able to choose hatch/pool first), and I made myself a little flowchart, but I don't know if it's accurate.
The drone should hit the terran base at around 2:00. If you encounter : *depolt with no rax at the wall : -gas in the main, 8 scv = 8/8/8 -> pool first, hide your scouting drone and proxy hatch some roaches (or any other responses agaisnt 8/8/8) -no gas, 10 scv (I found it's not hard to count them exactly) = proxy 2 rax -> hatch first, pool immediatly after, prevently pool drones around 3:00) -no gas, more than 12 scv =CC first -> hatch first, do the greediest thing in your book *rax building : -regular (13) gas timing -> hatch first, take your gas -gas first -> idem. But be ready for hellions sooner than usual. If no hellions or reapers early, do spores because banshee or hellbats are coming. -no gas -> hatch first + greediest build possible ? *nothing at the wall : that's wierd, but essentially the same read as when the depolt is on the wall
Are my responses/read rights, or there are some things I can change ? I'm really not sure of what to do agaisnt 2 rax.
On May 19 2013 16:37 Incognoto wrote: I think this has been asked before but here goes anyway. How do pro players play Zerg in terms of mechanics? I've been thinking a bit as to how to get shiny, smooth macro and here are some of my thoughts.
A good Zerg (probably true for other races) would want to have a sort of cycle in how they do different things. For example, early-mid game Zerg will do something like this in their "cycle".
1. Inject 2. Use larvae (drones or units depending on circumstance) 3. Spread Creep 5. Make 2 or 3 Overlords 6. Scout and think 7. Act accordingly to step 6 (expand/pressure/upgrade/tech w/e?) 8. Back to step 1 (step 2 depends on step 6).
Something like a mid-game TvZ where drops can happen:
8. Back to step 1 (step 2 depends on step 6). 8.5. Watch map
Maybe insert another inject step or another spend larvae step in between steps 5 and 6 or something? Not sure if steps 1 to 8 can be done in less than 45s. I don't know anything. ._.
So, do pro players think like this or something else entirely?
Mechanics wise, shiny smooth macro comes from injecting to the best of your ability and repeating SELECT HATCHERIES and SPAWN DRONES frequently and mixing in overlords when the time is right.
A Droning zerg will spend a lot of attention on selecting hatcheries and spawning drones super duper often. If you want to scout or spread creep that's fine, but don't let it be at the expense of frequent droning. For every second you're not making drones, you're losing valuable mining time which will backfire severely on your economy later on.
My best tip for you is that you need different mindsets for the different states of Zerg.
When zerg is droning in peace, you want to: 1. Inject perfectly 2. Make drones repeatedly (bonus if you make drones optimally at the right hatcheries) 3. Never get supply blocked 4. Set proper drone rally points 5. Stack drones properly, 2 on every mineral patch instead of 1 or 3 on mineral patches. 6. Spread creep? Scout and Think? Spread overlords? Move units? Make buildings? The priority of these shift depending on the situation. Repeating step 2 super fast without severely messing up the other steps, especially 1 and 3, is the key to smooth droning.
During a non-droning phase without combat you can allow more attention to creep-spread, scouting and thinking, etc. 1. Inject perfectly - great! Now you've 'created units'. 2. Never get supply blocked (anticipate future units). 3. Make units or buildings? Spread creep? Scout and Think? Spread overlords? Position army? The priority of these shift depending on the situation.
During a non-droning phase WITH combat you need to treat it more like the droning phase: 1. Inject perfectly 2. Make units repeatedly 3. Never get supply blocked 4. Control army You'll have to spend attention carefully between these 4 points. If you master all the above points, you may proceed with other things such as: 5. Expand? Make buildings? Spread creep? Scout and Think? Spread overlords? Move units elsewhere?
Keep in mind, sometimes, making a decision like taking a proxy base (let's say in the middle of a baserace) can be far more important than controlling the army killing your opponent's buildings. Everything is relative, but the above should work as base guidelines for how to spend your attention during the different states of zerg.
On May 15 2013 21:48 ZedraC wrote: Hi, Thank you very much for helping us, I for one appreciate it.
HOTS, dealing with voids early to mid game.
The other day I lost horribly trying to engage a army with voids in them. I think I had more than enough hydras but must have done something wrong. I see they asked us not to post replays, thus the edit.
Anyway, I engaged a Protoss ball with about 10 voids in it. I had 27 hydras and 14 roaches, he killed every last unit before i managed to kill one void. I do not understand how that was even possible.
So the question: What is your advice in engaging a Protoss ball as Zerg that has got majority voids in it?
If you don't have a solid amount of roaches covering your hydras, the problem might be that the charged void rays and gateway units take out your roaches too quickly and that gateway units plus void rays thereafter own the Hydralisks.
To make your fight as efficient as possible, try the following actions: - When using armored Roaches, force the Protoss to use Overcharge on his Void Rays and then back off with all your units for 20 seconds until the charge is on cooldown for 40 more seconds. - If it's possible without taking massive amounts of damage from zealots, you want to move closer to the protoss and 'hug' the protoss army for your hydras to be able to shoot at once, kind of like the way marines would stutter-step towards a flock of mutalisk. Void rays are stacking flying units so they will always be able to shoot you no matter how many there are, whereas hydras compete with roaches for ground space and will often be pushed out of the way. - Make more Queens and use them in battle. they cost about the same as a Hydralisk but have twice the HP. - Try not to underestimate void rays, they are very powerful so if you're not 100% sure you will win the fight then try to dodge it and fight another time.
On May 15 2013 21:48 ZedraC wrote: Hi, Thank you very much for helping us, I for one appreciate it.
HOTS, dealing with voids early to mid game.
The other day I lost horribly trying to engage a army with voids in them. I think I had more than enough hydras but must have done something wrong. I see they asked us not to post replays, thus the edit.
Anyway, I engaged a Protoss ball with about 10 voids in it. I had 27 hydras and 14 roaches, he killed every last unit before i managed to kill one void. I do not understand how that was even possible.
So the question: What is your advice in engaging a Protoss ball as Zerg that has got majority voids in it?
If you don't have a solid amount of roaches covering your hydras, the problem might be that the charged void rays and gateway units take out your roaches too quickly and that gateway units plus void rays thereafter own the Hydralisks.
To make your fight as efficient as possible, try the following actions: - When using armored Roaches, force the Protoss to use Overcharge on his Void Rays and then back off with all your units for 20 seconds until the charge is on cooldown for 40 more seconds. - If it's possible without taking massive amounts of damage from zealots, you want to move closer to the protoss and 'hug' the protoss army for your hydras to be able to shoot at once, kind of like the way marines would stutter-step towards a flock of mutalisk. Void rays are stacking flying units so they will always be able to shoot you no matter how many there are, whereas hydras compete with roaches for ground space and will often be pushed out of the way. - Make more Queens and use them in battle. they cost about the same as a Hydralisk but have twice the HP. - Try not to underestimate void rays, they are very powerful so if you're not 100% sure you will win the fight then try to dodge it and fight another time.
Sorry if its totally off now, but what about infestors? Or are am I missing a point here?
Hi, im high masters. Im sorry if someone answeredd this already but how do you deal with the 10 minute bio mine timing because no matter what i throw at the terran they still seem to win.
@Snute, that actually did help. At least I think it did. It gave me a sort of indicator as to what to work on when I attempt to improve Zerg mechanics. What I garnered from your post is that a zerg needs to prioritize smooth unit production above everything else. Not to the point of injecting while zerglings are getting killed by zealots en masse, obviously. This means droning smoothly until proper drone saturation (which depends on what you're facing), then making units to respond against whatever you're facing.
On March 04 2013 23:18 GropheR wrote: Hello all! I'm high master, but i have some problems vs toss. Maybe you can help me!
How to play safe vs 1 gate expand into gate pressure/stargate play?
and
How to react safely to a fast 3rd protoss ? I usually like to go mutas, but if he go blink or double stargate phoenix i can't do enought damages.
Help me! :D
Ty all!
1: Well, you should be scouting normally and 1 gate expos are very uncommon on 4 player maps as you can't scout for early early pools. If you scout the 1 gate expo you do a few different things.
i. If you scout first try and haven't put down a pool or hatch yet. Make 3 hatch before pool. you can keep your drone in his base for a very long time vs a zealot. You can get a pool up, and lings before 1 ling can kill a hatch. Your 3 bases vs his 1 gate expo will allow you to get an amazing economy up before anything like a 4gate (remember you still have a scouting drone) check his chrono usage and gas intake before the drone dies. If the chrono is high, usually means 4gate (doesn't hurt to prepare for it) if he has lots of gas and lots of chrono (2 gas) I would prepare for a blink all-in or DT rush. Very rarely will protoss 1 base an immortal all-in, and you should be making extra queens vs a gateway rush anyways (vs air). If he is regularly spending chrono on probes (more than two chronos) then he will most likely be expanding (or if his gateway is on the low ground that is also a good tell but not 100% accurate).
ii: If you scout on your 2nd try and haven't put down your hatch yet but have put down your pool (or put down your hatch and not your pool etc) make sure you can get into his base (either mineral walk past zealot if it is out) or you should be able to get there before a zealot is even out. You want to either take a fast 3rd before pool again, or grab your gas. You should never under any circumstance go Pool Hatch Hatch vs a gateway opener, your 3rd is way too late and a scouting protoss will just 4gate you and straight up win (they will rally MSC and zealot and stalker and deny your 3rd). Upon getting gas, you want very fast speedlings, aim for 32 drones (16 on each) and then just massing lings. The idea is to prevent him from expanding, the best idea is to pop 4-6 lings when your pool pops and rally them to his natural, either force a cancel or delay it. Take a third once you've established a strong ling count, make drones and lings and get gases. Scout at around 5:45-6:00 to see what he really is doing, respond from there.
iii: If you scout on your 3rd try and you've already went pool and hatch (safest is the way I assume you play) if you do open hatch first and you have a strong skill against cannon rushing protoss then by all mean go hatch first. You'll want to get into his base and scout the above (chrono, gas, pylon positioning and count, does he get aggressive with his stalker and zealot etc etc). Regardless if you've opened hatch or pool first, you still want to get early speed. You can't simply rally 4-6 lings anymore due to him having a stalker and zealot by time you get there. So you are going to do something different. You should always scout first with an ovie, and check what he is actually doing. Mass lings vs gateway, if he is going for a 2 base 8 gate all-in without +1, make roach/ling and just keep your lings active (again we are massing lings after 32 drones, but this time we are getting slightly less lings and more drones to fill up 4 gases). You'll want to engage as much as possible to bait forcefields. Don't hesitate to engage if you bait a forcefield and he doesn't throw it (a game of chicken) if you can get your lings on his units he will lose a lot of units. Think about how many lings you'll need to actually do that (so stay on top of your injects!).
If you see him open one stargate, simply make another queen at your natural and build a spore at each base. No need to over react. Sometimes a spore at the front will let you defend easier, but the extra queen should do the trick. Use this extra queen to spread creep with your other extra queen (that you should of made earlier unless you are greedy or don't like creep spread o.o) Take your third relatively earlier than your creep spread gets to it (if that makes sense...) that way you can get your queens to protect it.
If you see him open twilight before robo, that means he is aggressively getting tech, he will have zip for army which means you should go roach hydra and push before blink or charge hits.
If you see him open robo than he is most likely opening the same way every other protoss in the world opens right now. Your best bet is to spam lings and deny his third, while teching to hydra corruptor. The idea is to pure hydra corruptor and trade armies on your 3 base economy, except every time you push out you should take another base and stay only on 4-5 bases. Once you have more than 4-5 bases you just have 300 mineral free kills around the map that don't get you anything. Tech to broodlord swarm host viper hydra or tech to swarm host viper ultralisk hydra. The idea is that you want to siege him on 3 bases and deny his 4th.
If you see him open double stargate, just mass hydra and deny his 3rd, don't fight small packs of voidrays with small packs of hydras, due to charge up they will melt hydras.
Mass mutalisk is a terrible terrible call against a fast 3rd.
Here is exactly what 100% of protoss do when they open fast 3rd. They either are some sort of high GM smurf who just wants to win games with mass blink (never really see that) or they open stargates. If they open stargates you can be sure they are spending all their mineral income on cannons, it isn't uncommon to make 20-30 cannons per base while massing up air (the mass tempest style). This way the protoss can effectively trade armies to kill bases without you being able to counter attack properly (you could make swarm hosts, but swarm hosts don't shoot up and it isn't difficult for them to invest in an observer (which they need for tempest anyways). The best way to play against this, is to mass hydra and aggressively take every base on the map while spreading creep (wtfareyoutalkingaboutKornholi0). Quite simply, protoss air is actually slow and bad unless you are fighting small forces or have a critical mass.
So the idea for zerg is to constantly take too many expansions for the protoss to properly deal with (remember they want to trade armies for bases) well if you simply keep taking bases he won't be able to hit your 4th or 5th while he is still trying to kill your 6th and 7th base. You can now effectively trade armies with him, he'll run out of resources and won't be able to cannon up his 4th properly, now you can start trading armies for his bases and he'll go broke and lose. THIS IS A LOT HARDER IN PRACTICE THAN IT IS IN THEORY!
On May 26 2013 02:16 Foxxan wrote: So against voidrays/tempest what is effective against this?
Aggressively take bases, trade army for army. You can also throw down 30 spores per base to protect against air, put like 30 spores and then 5 or so spines in the middle of them to protect against zealots.
On March 04 2013 23:18 GropheR wrote: Hello all! I'm high master, but i have some problems vs toss. Maybe you can help me!
How to play safe vs 1 gate expand into gate pressure/stargate play?
and
How to react safely to a fast 3rd protoss ? I usually like to go mutas, but if he go blink or double stargate phoenix i can't do enought damages.
Help me! :D
Ty all!
1: Well, you should be scouting normally and 1 gate expos are very uncommon on 4 player maps as you can't scout for early early pools. If you scout the 1 gate expo you do a few different things.
i. If you scout first try and haven't put down a pool or hatch yet. Make 3 hatch before pool. you can keep your drone in his base for a very long time vs a zealot. You can get a pool up, and lings before 1 ling can kill a hatch. Your 3 bases vs his 1 gate expo will allow you to get an amazing economy up before anything like a 4gate (remember you still have a scouting drone) check his chrono usage and gas intake before the drone dies. If the chrono is high, usually means 4gate (doesn't hurt to prepare for it) if he has lots of gas and lots of chrono (2 gas) I would prepare for a blink all-in or DT rush. Very rarely will protoss 1 base an immortal all-in, and you should be making extra queens vs a gateway rush anyways (vs air). If he is regularly spending chrono on probes (more than two chronos) then he will most likely be expanding (or if his gateway is on the low ground that is also a good tell but not 100% accurate).
ii: If you scout on your 2nd try and haven't put down your hatch yet but have put down your pool (or put down your hatch and not your pool etc) make sure you can get into his base (either mineral walk past zealot if it is out) or you should be able to get there before a zealot is even out. You want to either take a fast 3rd before pool again, or grab your gas. You should never under any circumstance go Pool Hatch Hatch vs a gateway opener, your 3rd is way too late and a scouting protoss will just 4gate you and straight up win (they will rally MSC and zealot and stalker and deny your 3rd). Upon getting gas, you want very fast speedlings, aim for 32 drones (16 on each) and then just massing lings. The idea is to prevent him from expanding, the best idea is to pop 4-6 lings when your pool pops and rally them to his natural, either force a cancel or delay it. Take a third once you've established a strong ling count, make drones and lings and get gases. Scout at around 5:45-6:00 to see what he really is doing, respond from there.
iii: If you scout on your 3rd try and you've already went pool and hatch (safest is the way I assume you play) if you do open hatch first and you have a strong skill against cannon rushing protoss then by all mean go hatch first. You'll want to get into his base and scout the above (chrono, gas, pylon positioning and count, does he get aggressive with his stalker and zealot etc etc). Regardless if you've opened hatch or pool first, you still want to get early speed. You can't simply rally 4-6 lings anymore due to him having a stalker and zealot by time you get there. So you are going to do something different. You should always scout first with an ovie, and check what he is actually doing. Mass lings vs gateway, if he is going for a 2 base 8 gate all-in without +1, make roach/ling and just keep your lings active (again we are massing lings after 32 drones, but this time we are getting slightly less lings and more drones to fill up 4 gases). You'll want to engage as much as possible to bait forcefields. Don't hesitate to engage if you bait a forcefield and he doesn't throw it (a game of chicken) if you can get your lings on his units he will lose a lot of units. Think about how many lings you'll need to actually do that (so stay on top of your injects!).
If you see him open one stargate, simply make another queen at your natural and build a spore at each base. No need to over react. Sometimes a spore at the front will let you defend easier, but the extra queen should do the trick. Use this extra queen to spread creep with your other extra queen (that you should of made earlier unless you are greedy or don't like creep spread o.o) Take your third relatively earlier than your creep spread gets to it (if that makes sense...) that way you can get your queens to protect it.
If you see him open twilight before robo, that means he is aggressively getting tech, he will have zip for army which means you should go roach hydra and push before blink or charge hits.
If you see him open robo than he is most likely opening the same way every other protoss in the world opens right now. Your best bet is to spam lings and deny his third, while teching to hydra corruptor. The idea is to pure hydra corruptor and trade armies on your 3 base economy, except every time you push out you should take another base and stay only on 4-5 bases. Once you have more than 4-5 bases you just have 300 mineral free kills around the map that don't get you anything. Tech to broodlord swarm host viper hydra or tech to swarm host viper ultralisk hydra. The idea is that you want to siege him on 3 bases and deny his 4th.
If you see him open double stargate, just mass hydra and deny his 3rd, don't fight small packs of voidrays with small packs of hydras, due to charge up they will melt hydras.
Mass mutalisk is a terrible terrible call against a fast 3rd.
Here is exactly what 100% of protoss do when they open fast 3rd. They either are some sort of high GM smurf who just wants to win games with mass blink (never really see that) or they open stargates. If they open stargates you can be sure they are spending all their mineral income on cannons, it isn't uncommon to make 20-30 cannons per base while massing up air (the mass tempest style). This way the protoss can effectively trade armies to kill bases without you being able to counter attack properly (you could make swarm hosts, but swarm hosts don't shoot up and it isn't difficult for them to invest in an observer (which they need for tempest anyways). The best way to play against this, is to mass hydra and aggressively take every base on the map while spreading creep (wtfareyoutalkingaboutKornholi0). Quite simply, protoss air is actually slow and bad unless you are fighting small forces or have a critical mass.
So the idea for zerg is to constantly take too many expansions for the protoss to properly deal with (remember they want to trade armies for bases) well if you simply keep taking bases he won't be able to hit your 4th or 5th while he is still trying to kill your 6th and 7th base. You can now effectively trade armies with him, he'll run out of resources and won't be able to cannon up his 4th properly, now you can start trading armies for his bases and he'll go broke and lose. THIS IS A LOT HARDER IN PRACTICE THAN IT IS IN THEORY!
I've been with TL for a very long time, and what I've learned from it is simply this,
This is a community, built upon people helping other people... Not a monopoly of pros giving advice. They got those blue tags by making an impact on the community, but first they were simple posters.
I think that is why this forum has gone so dry, is because people are waiting for the pros to comment, and not letting the nobodies take a swing at it.
But that is just my two cents...
If a pro wants to come here and tell me I am wrong then go ahead.
On May 26 2013 02:16 Foxxan wrote: So against voidrays/tempest what is effective against this?
There are a couple ways to beat this.
You can do the boring style of turtle + static defense + many swarmhosts + viper/corruptor (or viper/queen).
You can do ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper which works just as well, isn't as boring and a lot more mobile.
It's really up to how you want to do it and which style you want to play but both of the ones I listed are legitimate ways to beat any mass tempest/voidray/templar/colossi composition.
On May 26 2013 02:16 Foxxan wrote: So against voidrays/tempest what is effective against this?
There are a couple ways to beat this.
You can do the boring style of turtle + static defense + many swarmhosts + viper/corruptor (or viper/queen).
You can do ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper which works just as well, isn't as boring and a lot more mobile.
It's really up to how you want to do it and which style you want to play but both of the ones I listed are legitimate ways to beat any mass tempest/voidray/templar/colossi composition.
Hey. I tried the hydra/swarmhost/viper around 10-12swarmhosts if i rembmer correctly, around 3vipers and rest hydras and i got roflstomped. He had like 15 tempest and 6 voidrays
So the tactic is pull, then Nuke then back and repeat but i didnt stand a chance, i need more testing but it seems this is correct? Oh and yes i waited for locust to go first to tank some shots
On May 26 2013 02:16 Foxxan wrote: So against voidrays/tempest what is effective against this?
There are a couple ways to beat this.
You can do the boring style of turtle + static defense + many swarmhosts + viper/corruptor (or viper/queen).
You can do ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper which works just as well, isn't as boring and a lot more mobile.
It's really up to how you want to do it and which style you want to play but both of the ones I listed are legitimate ways to beat any mass tempest/voidray/templar/colossi composition.
Hey. I tried the hydra/swarmhost/viper around 10-12swarmhosts if i rembmer correctly, around 3vipers and rest hydras and i got roflstomped. He had like 15 tempest and 6 voidrays
So the tactic is pull, then Nuke then back and repeat but i didnt stand a chance, i need more testing but it seems this is correct? Oh and yes i waited for locust to go first to tank some shots
12-14 swarmhosts, 4 vipers, hydras and you want some ultras too. If he's going pure air (tempest/voidray no colossi no templar) then just vipers + hydra + 12-14 swarmhosts is all you need. You should smash it easily with this composition as no splash = even easier to kill.
Just abduct, kill, retreat and repeat. Although if you have a ton of hydra you should be able to just abduct and then kill them with hydra as mass tempests aren't that good tbh very low dps and any AA kinda smashes them.
I've been with TL for a very long time, and what I've learned from it is simply this,
This is a community, built upon people helping other people... Not a monopoly of pros giving advice. They got those blue tags by making an impact on the community, but first they were simple posters.
I think that is why this forum has gone so dry, is because people are waiting for the pros to comment, and not letting the nobodies take a swing at it.
But that is just my two cents...
If a pro wants to come here and tell me I am wrong then go ahead.
well, this is called the pro thread...
Anyways, what I wanted to know is: What do you do against mass zealot/archon/voidray. I think I've read that infestor/baneling "absolutely smashes" this, but how?
I've been with TL for a very long time, and what I've learned from it is simply this,
This is a community, built upon people helping other people... Not a monopoly of pros giving advice. They got those blue tags by making an impact on the community, but first they were simple posters.
I think that is why this forum has gone so dry, is because people are waiting for the pros to comment, and not letting the nobodies take a swing at it.
But that is just my two cents...
If a pro wants to come here and tell me I am wrong then go ahead.
well, this is called the pro thread...
Anyways, what I wanted to know is: What do you do against mass zealot/archon/voidray. I think I've read that infestor/baneling "absolutely smashes" this, but how?
Edit: Forgot about HTs in the mix with storm
Actually if you really want to smash zealot/archon/voidray swarmhost/hydra literally crushes this so hard. Archon/zealot/templar just melts to swarmhosts and hydra slaughter the voidrays.
Seriously if you go swarmhosts you are going to laugh at how easy it is to smash that composition.
Hello! I'm a high masters zerg, and recently I've been struggling a lot vs Terran. I'm finding it very hard to hold some of the 2-2 bio mine pushes. When the push arrives, I have 2-2, a lot of zerglings and banelings, and sometimes I've even got mutas, and creep spread. But in the fight, I never come out effectively, as I lose a lot of banelings, and he usually fly away in his medivacs, then he starts dropping and attacking my front, until I die. I want to know how can I be more effective versus widow mines, and how to secure a fifth(or even a fourth sometimes).
On May 26 2013 09:56 ItzShakti wrote: Hello! I'm a high masters zerg, and recently I've been struggling a lot vs Terran. I'm finding it very hard to hold some of the 2-2 bio mine pushes. When the push arrives, I have 2-2, a lot of zerglings and banelings, and sometimes I've even got mutas, and creep spread. But in the fight, I never come out effectively, as I lose a lot of banelings, and he usually fly away in his medivacs, then he starts dropping and attacking my front, until I die. I want to know how can I be more effective versus widow mines, and how to secure a fifth(or even a fourth sometimes).
The only way to be effective against Widow Mines is to make them almost useless by triggering them with a very minimal investment (1-2 lings, Overlords/Queens life pool, 1 Roach) or to make them work against the Terran, so spreading your lings as much as possible and running them PAST the bio ball or under clumped up medivacs, using the Mines damage to trade your cheap units for his more expansive composition. Either one is not particularly easy to achieve and you will have to micro as much as he has to avoid losing his mines or take friendly fire, I started having some success with it when I actually spent a few hours with practice partners testing these situations over and over.
On May 26 2013 09:56 ItzShakti wrote: Hello! I'm a high masters zerg, and recently I've been struggling a lot vs Terran. I'm finding it very hard to hold some of the 2-2 bio mine pushes. When the push arrives, I have 2-2, a lot of zerglings and banelings, and sometimes I've even got mutas, and creep spread. But in the fight, I never come out effectively, as I lose a lot of banelings, and he usually fly away in his medivacs, then he starts dropping and attacking my front, until I die. I want to know how can I be more effective versus widow mines, and how to secure a fifth(or even a fourth sometimes).
Sounds like you're short on units. You might want to look for your macro and see if you're falling behind or not. In the scenario you're describing it's probably optimal to be somewhere around 80 drones and constantly massing lings, focusing your attention on where your army can be the most efficient.
If the macro is not the problem, your engagements probably need some work. Make sure to do things like flanks/splitting. Splitting banelings is especially important vs mines. The a-move is also especially important - make sure to movecommand your army past the terran's army instead of a-moving straight on to it. Stephano is a good zerg to look to for examples on how to engage. Make sure to be extra careful with your mutas, send them in later rather than too soon.
How do you stop marine/rauder/Medivac/Hellbat combination. They typically 2 base off this and take a 3rd behind the pressure
here is a link to my other thread with 4 replays, the drops start at around 8:30 and force you to pull drones to no loose them which hurts your econ even if they just pick up and leave
I've been with TL for a very long time, and what I've learned from it is simply this,
This is a community, built upon people helping other people... Not a monopoly of pros giving advice. They got those blue tags by making an impact on the community, but first they were simple posters.
I think that is why this forum has gone so dry, is because people are waiting for the pros to comment, and not letting the nobodies take a swing at it.
But that is just my two cents...
If a pro wants to come here and tell me I am wrong then go ahead.
That is what zerg help me thread and simple questions simple answers is for, I think the idea is that if people want advice from a pro they can come here, but if the don't care who give the advice they can go to the other threads
hi, im a lowly diamond zerg, who has trouble with terrans who go mech and hit a timing right before hive. They have so many tanks that they can just siege a few and keep the rest unsieged. i can't seem to break them before-hand, and their push kills a roach hydra composition so fast.
On May 26 2013 12:03 Kornholi0 wrote: Well I dun goof'd...
Hey Blade was there anything wrong with my post? (aside from its intrusion to this thread)
If it is correct please claim it as your own. I would rather the information be seen then it be discarded.
Well, I, to one, am sure as hell am glad I saw it...
That was the most informative post I have ever read on the subject, and believe me, I read a lot about gateway expands in ZvP because I have such a hard time reacting to them without either over-reacting or overdroning. I wish there was a comprehensive guide about what possible timings and types of pressure a Protoss can apply off of various styles of gateway expands, and proper zerg reactions to each. Your post was the closest thing to that I have seen yet.
On May 26 2013 12:03 Kornholi0 wrote: Well I dun goof'd...
Hey Blade was there anything wrong with my post? (aside from its intrusion to this thread)
If it is correct please claim it as your own. I would rather the information be seen then it be discarded.
Well, I, for one, am sure as hell am glad I saw it...
That was the most informative post I have ever read on the subject, and believe me, I read a lot about gateway expands in ZvP because I have such a hard time reacting to them without either over-reacting or overdroning. I wish there was a comprehensive guide about what possible timings and types of pressure a Protoss can apply off of various styles of gateway expands, and proper zerg reactions to each. Your post was the closest thing to that I have seen yet.
Welp, looking for a bit of input. Gold league, trying to break into Plat, and I'm getting close. I think I know what needs to happen in this circumstance (aside from more scouting) but I have a replay here that shows what is going on if anyone wants. The general idea of it is that I am trying to pull off Hydra/Swarm Host against Protoss, and attempting to do this off 3 base with a macro hatch. This seems to be common place in most of my games versus protoss, where they have an overwhelming force earlier than I'm ready. I think a bit more scouting information will be better however, at this point I think I need to change up what I am doing. I was thinking about a Roach/Corruptor composition, but I would like to know if there's something safer and more viable for an earlier 1 or 2 base immortal zealot push.
I would like input. Constructively please. I appreciate it ♥
EDIT: Just had some more thoughts added by a friend. The build I am doing seems somewhat wasteful, mostly because of things like having too much gas, and not enough drones early enough.
On May 26 2013 12:03 Kornholi0 wrote: Well I dun goof'd...
Hey Blade was there anything wrong with my post? (aside from its intrusion to this thread)
If it is correct please claim it as your own. I would rather the information be seen then it be discarded.
Well, I, to one, am sure as hell am glad I saw it...
That was the most informative post I have ever read on the subject, and believe me, I read a lot about gateway expands in ZvP because I have such a hard time reacting to them without either over-reacting or overdroning. I wish there was a comprehensive guide about what possible timings and types of pressure a Protoss can apply off of various styles of gateway expands, and proper zerg reactions to each. Your post was the closest thing to that I have seen yet.
Well glad I could help, to avoid abusing this thread more than I have, if you shoot me a PM I could help you with more stuff if you like.
I used to coach people for hours upon hours for free... Then I realized I could make money off of it, then I realized no one wanted to pay for lessons so now I just teach the odd person for free.
On May 26 2013 12:03 Kornholi0 wrote: Well I dun goof'd...
Hey Blade was there anything wrong with my post? (aside from its intrusion to this thread)
If it is correct please claim it as your own. I would rather the information be seen then it be discarded.
Well, I, to one, am sure as hell am glad I saw it...
That was the most informative post I have ever read on the subject, and believe me, I read a lot about gateway expands in ZvP because I have such a hard time reacting to them without either over-reacting or overdroning. I wish there was a comprehensive guide about what possible timings and types of pressure a Protoss can apply off of various styles of gateway expands, and proper zerg reactions to each. Your post was the closest thing to that I have seen yet.
Guys before posting in this thread please follow the guidelines in the OP: - Please do not include your own replays. Ask only questions that can be answered without having to watch a replay.
If you're not one of the Pro Zerg players answering questions but still have good knowledge, PM with advice instead of posting/creating a discussion about how this thread should function. Again, The OP of this thread explains things very straight forward =) just writing on my own behalf here, makes it easier for me to answer questions when I don't have to skim through posts that turn out not to be questions... sry kk
What are the timings and their respective ingame time you should be worried about in ZvP if P goes FFE? From when could shit hit the fan? (7gate all-in, sentry-immortal allin, voidray gateway all-in etc)
how to prepare in ZvT or ZvP on big maps like star station where you cant scout what they are doing?! got huge problems on the big maps with scouting. vs FFE you can scout gases which tells enough i think but vs gate first or T in general i feel pretty lost.
So a question regarding hydras in zvt against bioplay
Especially versus marauders/hellbats
Hydras should be good now shouldnt they? Your units are lings/bane heavy with hydras. Even maybe a 3rd evo
Seems to me hydras is viable in zvt if you dont mass them to hard and against correct bio play Any comment?
Just to be clear, i am talking about when zerg goes heavy ling/Bane and to add hydras into this(you skip roaches), and particularly against many marauders and hellbats
On May 28 2013 21:47 KaiserJohan wrote: What are the timings and their respective ingame time you should be worried about in ZvP if P goes FFE? From when could shit hit the fan? (7gate all-in, sentry-immortal allin, voidray gateway all-in etc)
Generally it goes like this: 6:30-7:45 = Simple pressure, zealot, stalker, mothership, proxy pylon etc. stuff you want some lings/queens for.
~7:45 and onwards = warpgate pressure, +1 4-gate mass stalker/zealot attacks, proxy oracles, dt rush and stuff u want spores n roaches for. Later timings also include of warp prism in the main, 7gate attacks, stuff like that.
9:00+ = immortal allins, mass gate allins, stargate gateway allins, n other punchy builds.
On May 27 2013 11:24 partydude89 wrote: hi, im a lowly diamond zerg, who has trouble with terrans who go mech and hit a timing right before hive. They have so many tanks that they can just siege a few and keep the rest unsieged. i can't seem to break them before-hand, and their push kills a roach hydra composition so fast.
Hey Partydude!
They key to beat mech is to identify it as soon as possible, you want to play very differently vs mech than you do vs Bio. I advise you to watch your replays vs Mech and try to find a good time for when to send in an Overlord. The early game is extremely important if the Terran player manages to do economic damage to you with hellion run byes or drops it's very difficult to come back so you have to perfect your defense vs that. On your own judgement get either baneling nest or roach warren to defend vs hellbats. (whenever I see Hellbat drops I also like to add 1-2 queens to help defend the drops and get 1 spore at each base, then it comes down to pure micro)
Now if you're settled well and save vs harass and found out that you play against mech you want to boost your economy a lot, his first push won't be for a while so you can drone much harder than vs bio.
This is my main styles vs mech.
I get for some pretty fast mutas (but no more than around 10) to force him to make turrets, do some eco damage and delay his push as well as force out thors.
Then I transition into Shs while going up to have at the same time. Get as many Shs as you can and try to position them in an offensive position to buy time. The closer they are to the terran the more you can ''kite'' with them. Whenever his mech army cleans up a wave of locusts and advances on your position you unburrow, run away until you have a new wave ready to spawn, burrow again and repeat until you can't run anymore.
This should ideally buy you enough time to get Broodlords out to deal with his mech push. In the meantime you should also increase your queen count to 8-10 to boost your Broodlord transition.
Creep spread is fundemental for the queens but also helps with the ''kiting'' of the Shs earlier on so try to cancer up that map as much as possible! (it's hard for mech to stop a strong creep spread early on so try to make use of that)
Now at last, you push out with your broodlord, SH queen army. Try not to lose your mutas if you can, they will help a lot with defending against tank/hellbat counter attacks. And spend your over-mins on static defense on your bases because drops are going to be incredibly annoying with your super slower Free unit spawning death army. (you never want to have to turn around with that super slo-mo army, so gotta secure your bases but don't overract if you lose a base as long as your army keeps marching forward and you can hold 1-2 bases you'll be fine)
On May 27 2013 11:24 partydude89 wrote: hi, im a lowly diamond zerg, who has trouble with terrans who go mech and hit a timing right before hive. They have so many tanks that they can just siege a few and keep the rest unsieged. i can't seem to break them before-hand, and their push kills a roach hydra composition so fast.
Hey Partydude!
They key to beat mech is to identify it as soon as possible, you want to play very differently vs mech than you do vs Bio. I advise you to watch your replays vs Mech and try to find a good time for when to send in an Overlord. The early game is extremely important if the Terran player manages to do economic damage to you with hellion run byes or drops it's very difficult to come back so you have to perfect your defense vs that. On your own judgement get either baneling nest or roach warren to defend vs hellbats. (whenever I see Hellbat drops I also like to add 1-2 queens to help defend the drops and get 1 spore at each base, then it comes down to pure micro)
Now if you're settled well and save vs harass and found out that you play against mech you want to boost your economy a lot, his first push won't be for a while so you can drone much harder than vs bio.
This is my main styles vs mech.
I get for some pretty fast mutas (but no more than around 10) to force him to make turrets, do some eco damage and delay his push as well as force out thors.
Then I transition into Shs while going up to have at the same time. Get as many Shs as you can and try to position them in an offensive position to buy time. The closer they are to the terran the more you can ''kite'' with them. Whenever his mech army cleans up a wave of locusts and advances on your position you unburrow, run away until you have a new wave ready to spawn, burrow again and repeat until you can't run anymore.
This should ideally buy you enough time to get Broodlords out to deal with his mech push. In the meantime you should also increase your queen count to 8-10 to boost your Broodlord transition.
Creep spread is fundemental for the queens but also helps with the ''kiting'' of the Shs earlier on so try to cancer up that map as much as possible! (it's hard for mech to stop a strong creep spread early on so try to make use of that)
Now at last, you push out with your broodlord, SH queen army. Try not to lose your mutas if you can, they will help a lot with defending against tank/hellbat counter attacks. And spend your over-mins on static defense on your bases because drops are going to be incredibly annoying with your super slower Free unit spawning death army. (you never want to have to turn around with that super slo-mo army, so gotta secure your bases but don't overract if you lose a base as long as your army keeps marching forward and you can hold 1-2 bases you'll be fine)
Awesome! Thanks! What do you do against someone who mixes in ravens into his mech? I find that seeker missile really wreck my army.
On May 28 2013 21:51 Decendos wrote: how to prepare in ZvT or ZvP on big maps like star station where you cant scout what they are doing?! got huge problems on the big maps with scouting. vs FFE you can scout gases which tells enough i think but vs gate first or T in general i feel pretty lost.
You'll have to play blindly and as safe as possible and develop your gamesense. Pay attention to his unit composition at different times and try to understand what he's doing.
Let's say you see 2 hellions and he's pushing your creep. However, you don't see any more hellions being added to the ball. This means he could be switching into Hellbats, maybe Widow Mines. If you see hellions being added to the ball constantly, however, you know that the threat of Hellbats and Widow Mines is pushed further away.
The more you lose to different attacks you'll learn what T/P can do and can't do at the different timings. Until then, you want to tailor general responses that can deal with everything.
Example: Star Station, I scout a 1-gate expand into 3 gates in the front with my Zergling, but there's a zealot and a sentry walling off and I can't see anything else.
Response: Drone up natural, make a bunch of lings around 6-minute mark (since it's good vs many variations of 1gate expand 3gate) and see if he's pushing out and with what composition.
Then, let's say I see a probe guarded by a sentry moving out with 4 zealots, I don't want to attack directly into this since I only made 16 lings this game (greedy!), so I back off. However, since I only saw zealots and just 1 sentry, I can expect gas to have been invested into TECH (Dark Templar or Stargate), so I decide to put down spores just because I don't know what can come.
This is just one example of how to think when working with limited information, hope it's useful.
I have a question about Viper usage against Mech T. Once you've got your Vipers out, what considerations do you make about which spell to use? They both are obviously strong against Mech, but when is it better to take out a few units individually and when is it better to blanket the Tanks and Thors with Blinding Cloud and engage?
On May 28 2013 21:51 Decendos wrote: how to prepare in ZvT or ZvP on big maps like star station where you cant scout what they are doing?! got huge problems on the big maps with scouting. vs FFE you can scout gases which tells enough i think but vs gate first or T in general i feel pretty lost.
You'll have to play blindly and as safe as possible and develop your gamesense. Pay attention to his unit composition at different times and try to understand what he's doing.
Let's say you see 2 hellions and he's pushing your creep. However, you don't see any more hellions being added to the ball. This means he could be switching into Hellbats, maybe Widow Mines. If you see hellions being added to the ball constantly, however, you know that the threat of Hellbats and Widow Mines is pushed further away.
The more you lose to different attacks you'll learn what T/P can do and can't do at the different timings. Until then, you want to tailor general responses that can deal with everything.
Example: Star Station, I scout a 1-gate expand into 3 gates in the front with my Zergling, but there's a zealot and a sentry walling off and I can't see anything else.
Response: Drone up natural, make a bunch of lings around 6-minute mark (since it's good vs many variations of 1gate expand 3gate) and see if he's pushing out and with what composition.
Then, let's say I see a probe guarded by a sentry moving out with 4 zealots, I don't want to attack directly into this since I only made 16 lings this game (greedy!), so I back off. However, since I only saw zealots and just 1 sentry, I can expect gas to have been invested into TECH (Dark Templar or Stargate), so I decide to put down spores just because I don't know what can come.
This is just one example of how to think when working with limited information, hope it's useful.
I have a questions regarding reactionary punishment in ZvZ.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but most maps allow for an overlord to scout (on some 4player if scouted first) the builds: Hatch first, 15 pool hatch, no hatch. Earlier pool builds will be scouted either by lings under the OV or an OV flyin.
So, this is difficult for me to word clearly, but what is something that when scouted generates a direct reaction of "I can punish that".
As far as I know there is no way to punish hatch-first without punishing it blindly. What sorts of other things do you see that trigger a possible "all-in" punishment?
I'm having quite a lot of troubles vs a Protoss who is not FFE, and going 1 gate expand-ish style of play. I know it should (in theory) grant them less of a good economy as long as I defend their pressure well, but I always mess up because I can't figure out a solid/safe build order that still is greedy enough to bring me to the mid-game without dropping behind.
As well as on big maps, I don't know exactly what to do: should I drone scout, do my "classic" BO and take a gas if I see he is gate-expanding? Should I take a 3rd, or cancel the one which may be already building? What timings should I be scared of and how not to overcommit into early defense?
I wonder if pros are using something somewhat standard by know or if they have not figured out the best safe opening yet.
Thank you a lot for your help, it is much appreciated.
Hey guys, Mid gold here. Firstly, thanks for making this thread :D and I have a few questions
1) In ZvT if you don't see an early reaper is that a sign that they are going bio?
2) Since I'm in such a low league I feel that timings are generally shifted/delayed outside of say the 5-7min mark. Is this just me or is there a sort of "buffer" time frame I can build in for when I am scouting?
3) Finally, in ZvZ I have been having a big problem with people doing 1 base all-ins with an expand behind it so I have started going baneling nest first before speed which has worked out quite well so far (3-1). Is this a viable build or should I just focus more on getting my ling speed first still and then defending better?
On May 29 2013 20:28 fiestamaan wrote: Hey guys, Mid gold here. Firstly, thanks for making this thread :D and I have a few questions
1) In ZvT if you don't see an early reaper is that a sign that they are going bio?
2) Since I'm in such a low league I feel that timings are generally shifted/delayed outside of say the 5-7min mark. Is this just me or is there a sort of "buffer" time frame I can build in for when I am scouting?
3) Finally, in ZvZ I have been having a big problem with people doing 1 base all-ins with an expand behind it so I have started going baneling nest first before speed which has worked out quite well so far (3-1). Is this a viable build or should I just focus more on getting my ling speed first still and then defending better?
1. No. They could be doing anything. They're probably going bio though, most people do.
2. Timings in general are less useful to scout for because, as you said, they may come at very different times to what you expect. Just focus on scouting what tech and production facilities your opponent has, and how many bases they have, to know what they could throw at you and react to that. For example, if you scout he's on 2 bases and you have 3 bases with good drone saturation on each base, focus on making units, if he takes a 3rd, make more drones and think about taking a 4th. Or, if you scout lots of barracks with reactors on, make sure you have at least some banelings already morphed, that sort of thing.
3. Baneling nest first is fine and at gold league is probably optimal. If your opponent scouts it and reacts to it they can safely drone up more and your own scouting with speedlings is delayed. But these are really small issues compared to the advantage in safety it gives you.
How do you properly deal with 1 gate expand? Because at least to me it seems that they can do a timing/all in/pressure at the most random timings off either 4 gate, 8 gate, 7 gate robo, and a lot of various combinations that hit fairly hard.
On May 30 2013 05:44 Darkthorn wrote: How do you properly deal with 1 gate expand? Because at least to me it seems that they can do a timing/all in/pressure at the most random timings off either 4 gate, 8 gate, 7 gate robo, and a lot of various combinations that hit fairly hard.
1gate expand is just an early game thing. You want to separate the thoughts of the 1-gate expand from things like 8-gate and 7-gate robo, they are different timings and have little to do with each other.
When you see a 1-gate expand you want to have your gas down no later than ~3:25. Make a total of 3 queens and spread creep towards your future third base while injecting. Produce a swell of speedlings before/around the 6-minute mark to secure your 3rd base and the area around it.
The most important thing here is to not suffer a defense failure. If you find yourself losing to zealots/proxy pylons more often than you don't, make more zerglings. If you want to stay 100% safe you want to add in a roach warren and resume gas mining at around the 6-minute mark as well.
Once you've defended the pressure, you're entering the next stage of the game where things like 8-gates can happen. After defending the initial pressure the game develops, you're making drones, etc and it starts to look more like a game vs a Forge FE protoss.
A common question I also hear a lot is 'Doesn't making so many lings this early put me far behind if Protoss decides not to attack?' not really, it's not as bad as you think. If you start making lings around the 6-minute mark you're already way ahead in economy compared to the Protoss. The thing is that you can never, ever, legitimately drone if you don't have map control at this stage.
This is just one way to deal with 1gate-expand. There are also 2-base tech builds out there, but personally I prefer a fast 3rd.
On May 30 2013 05:44 Darkthorn wrote: How do you properly deal with 1 gate expand? Because at least to me it seems that they can do a timing/all in/pressure at the most random timings off either 4 gate, 8 gate, 7 gate robo, and a lot of various combinations that hit fairly hard.
1gate expand is just an early game thing. You want to separate the thoughts of the 1-gate expand from things like 8-gate and 7-gate robo, they are different timings and have little to do with each other.
When you see a 1-gate expand you want to have your gas down no later than ~3:25. Make a total of 3 queens and spread creep towards your future third base while injecting. Produce a swell of speedlings before/around the 6-minute mark to secure your 3rd base and the area around it.
The most important thing here is to not suffer a defense failure. If you find yourself losing to zealots/proxy pylons more often than you don't, make more zerglings. If you want to stay 100% safe you want to add in a roach warren and resume gas mining at around the 6-minute mark as well.
Once you've defended the pressure, you're entering the next stage of the game where things like 8-gates can happen. After defending the initial pressure the game develops, you're making drones, etc and it starts to look more like a game vs a Forge FE protoss.
A common question I also hear a lot is 'Doesn't making so many lings this early put me far behind if Protoss decides not to attack?' not really, it's not as bad as you think. If you start making lings around the 6-minute mark you're already way ahead in economy compared to the Protoss. The thing is that you can never, ever, legitimately drone if you don't have map control at this stage.
This is just one way to deal with 1gate-expand. There are also 2-base tech builds out there, but personally I prefer a fast 3rd.
I usually either overdrone or underdrone...it feels like 1 gate expanding takes me off my game for some reason...would you be willing to provide some replays? Also what do you transition into once the game stabilises, is it roach hydra, swarmhost, mutas the ling ups into ultra? Thanks for the help thus far. Edit: Forgot to say...most people don't get any sentries or just 1-2 when going for 1 gate...but how do you deal with it when they go for @ 6-7 sentries...that's what's troubling me most.
How close to a nexus can a overlord scout while being sure you can escape without dying to the nexus cannon? Or is it usually worh sacking the lord anyways?
Would be nice if someone could talk a little bit about their decision making in ZvZ. It seems that a lot of the high profile/High talent players i watch stream make all-in decisions on a whim based off of some key thing they scout.
ZvZ seems to be the most responsive matchup in this way; if one of these players could go into a little detail on how they feel about it and how they play it, that would be great.
On May 31 2013 09:48 konicki wrote: Would be nice if someone could talk a little bit about their decision making in ZvZ. It seems that a lot of the high profile/High talent players i watch stream make all-in decisions on a whim based off of some key thing they scout.
ZvZ seems to be the most responsive matchup in this way; if one of these players could go into a little detail on how they feel about it and how they play it, that would be great.
Well some key things to give you that "oh I should all in" would be say you scout double evo or single evo no baneling nest. Ling/bane all in will kill him. If you scout no baneling nest would be another indicator to just do it.
Honestly right now 99.9% of my games are all ins in zvz, if I don't do an all in my opponent does and if I decide to do an all in, so does my opponent.
On May 30 2013 14:51 Axieoqu wrote: How close to a nexus can a overlord scout while being sure you can escape without dying to the nexus cannon? Or is it usually worh sacking the lord anyways?
Uh no toss player I have ever seen/heard of uses nexus cannon when an overlord is going inside the base. It's not worth the energy as say you do a roach/ling all in, well he won't have nexus cannon if he used it to kill a single overlord. An overlord can get within 13 range of a nexus with nexus cannon when it gets hit (it's as long as siege range which I believe is 13?).
I think Naniwa did it once vs Leenock recently, to prevent Leenock from scouting his all-in. That's the only instance I've ever seen a nexus cannon being used to deny overlord scouting.
In my opinion, 100 minerals to know exactly what Protoss is going to throw at you, is always worth it, so always sack that Overlord. Or make an Overseer, he might be able to get out in time.
Of course I'll stop there, I don't have dat blue background. Just wanted to point out that scouting Protoss's base as Zerg is definitely pretty damn important.
which composition do you go for vs MMM + hellbats + mines? lots of T go for this comp, attack and get a 3rd behind the push while still getting upgrades...
going muta straight up killed me, even if i did no upgrades. roach bane maybe? but that leaves us with a very bad composition if T just moves back. hellbat healing is literally the most stupid thing blizz ever did to starcraft...
any idea how to defend the push and not be behind afterwards?
Hi How do u play vs mech in ZvT ?? What unit composition should u use how to deny his bases etc ? every time i play vs mech i start falling completely apart in Macro and building up so much money without knowing what to get and just getting every drone massacred with Hellions TT
I'm most of the way through learning hots after taking a long break. was mid-master in wol, now meandering through diamond in hots.
here's the shortened versions first (more context/info below): - How do you deal with planetaries in ZvT? - How do you handle/micro against VR with zealot support when going roach-hydra in ZvP? Specifically talking about when he's at your base and pops VR charge. - What is the best way to deal with HT that are protecting colossi from vipers?
ZvT planetaries: I am wondering how you pros handle planetaries at the terran fourth, whether playing muta-ling-bane or roach-hydra. specifically, the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock bases on neo planet s seem to be strong planetary spots. in wol, I used to send in banes around the back of the minerals to kill scvs, but widow mines tend to shut that down without the terran needing to change a thing. I can't seem to pressure that base because when i push forward to target the planetary, the terran will swing up from the main path and have me half flanked, so I take a lot of losses as i retreat, and i still don't kill the planetary. i have taken to just waiting for ultras before I try to break it, but i'd like to hear your thoughts.
ZvP: what do you guys do about VR charge, e.g. against VRs with zealot support? run away until it wears off, letting a base die if necessary? too often the smaller amount of roaches I have in hots will melt to the a-moved VRs and then the hydras start taking zealot damage. should i pull queens and put them in front? currently I just kite the zealots and try to bait the VRs forward enough to focus them down as the bulk of my hydras, but this still results in losing the roaches and then having zealots on hydras during the engagement.
one more ZvP thing: what is your preferred way of managing the HT vs viper dance? is it worth it to abduct HT? this is assuming hydra-SH-viper against heavy colossi (4+).
Thanks in advance. The past few pages of answers have been really useful.
On May 30 2013 05:44 Darkthorn wrote: How do you properly deal with 1 gate expand? Because at least to me it seems that they can do a timing/all in/pressure at the most random timings off either 4 gate, 8 gate, 7 gate robo, and a lot of various combinations that hit fairly hard.
1gate expand is just an early game thing. You want to separate the thoughts of the 1-gate expand from things like 8-gate and 7-gate robo, they are different timings and have little to do with each other.
When you see a 1-gate expand you want to have your gas down no later than ~3:25. Make a total of 3 queens and spread creep towards your future third base while injecting. Produce a swell of speedlings before/around the 6-minute mark to secure your 3rd base and the area around it.
The most important thing here is to not suffer a defense failure. If you find yourself losing to zealots/proxy pylons more often than you don't, make more zerglings. If you want to stay 100% safe you want to add in a roach warren and resume gas mining at around the 6-minute mark as well.
Once you've defended the pressure, you're entering the next stage of the game where things like 8-gates can happen. After defending the initial pressure the game develops, you're making drones, etc and it starts to look more like a game vs a Forge FE protoss.
A common question I also hear a lot is 'Doesn't making so many lings this early put me far behind if Protoss decides not to attack?' not really, it's not as bad as you think. If you start making lings around the 6-minute mark you're already way ahead in economy compared to the Protoss. The thing is that you can never, ever, legitimately drone if you don't have map control at this stage.
This is just one way to deal with 1gate-expand. There are also 2-base tech builds out there, but personally I prefer a fast 3rd.
ty for your thought process here. Question however, When you choose to go down the fast third route. What direction do you like to go down? double evo roach ling into late game? quick spire? corruptor sh?
On May 29 2013 20:28 fiestamaan wrote: 3) Finally, in ZvZ I have been having a big problem with people doing 1 base all-ins with an expand behind it so I have started going baneling nest first before speed which has worked out quite well so far (3-1). Is this a viable build or should I just focus more on getting my ling speed first still and then defending better?
personally, I take a baneling nest before speed depending on what I scout. if they're going for gas before expand I'll go for baneling nest first. if they do standard 15 hatch or 15 pool into hatch I'll take speed first.
On June 01 2013 05:02 Decendos wrote: which composition do you go for vs MMM + hellbats + mines? lots of T go for this comp, attack and get a 3rd behind the push while still getting upgrades...
going muta straight up killed me, even if i did no upgrades. roach bane maybe? but that leaves us with a very bad composition if T just moves back. hellbat healing is literally the most stupid thing blizz ever did to starcraft...
any idea how to defend the push and not be behind afterwards?
There are a couple things you can do. What I am finding most effective against MMM + hellbats is muta/ling/bane/roach. I find it a lot easier to engage and kill a terran bioball + hellbats with that composition then muta/ling/bane alone. If you want to do the muta/ling/bane way you have to make a ton of banelings, more then you usually would versus bio/mine.
If it's a pre-muta timing roach/ling/bane will hold it even when you go double upgrades.
On June 01 2013 05:07 darkphantom wrote: Hi How do u play vs mech in ZvT ?? What unit composition should u use how to deny his bases etc ? every time i play vs mech i start falling completely apart in Macro and building up so much money without knowing what to get and just getting every drone massacred with Hellions TT
Versus mech you should be going swarmhost/roach/hydra and decently fast hive (start it at like 12-13 minutes latest) and get vipers. Roach/hydra/swarmhost/viper and then eventually ultra/hydra/viper/swarmhost if it goes on that long. Swarmhosts are so so so good versus mech it's awesome
High master zerg. How do I hold control over my games in zvp when going swarmhost-hydra into viper -> ultra?
I feel like my swarmhosts are so immobile, protoss can just circumvent them and pick off a base left and right. I constantly feel 'scared' because I don't know what's coming - my creep is easily killed because I'm too immobile to keep him under pressure. This in turn makes me hesitate to keep moving my swarmhosts because being caught 'unsieged' means I lose the game - and blink stalkers can easily catch up if I run backwards.
On maps such as star station - do you still go hydra-SH? The map is huge with tons of open space, so my SH kinda suck at keeping area control.
hi guys plat zerg here ! i have a problem with zvt ! they do a push with helbats marauders medivac and a few marines i have hard time dealing wiht it .i scout the armory but i donot know if it gona be drops or the push or both , i keep losing to it. any suggestion how should i defend it?
On June 01 2013 20:00 Henk wrote: Hey blade55555, this one's mostly for you.
High master zerg. How do I hold control over my games in zvp when going swarmhost-hydra into viper -> ultra?
I feel like my swarmhosts are so immobile, protoss can just circumvent them and pick off a base left and right. I constantly feel 'scared' because I don't know what's coming - my creep is easily killed because I'm too immobile to keep him under pressure. This in turn makes me hesitate to keep moving my swarmhosts because being caught 'unsieged' means I lose the game - and blink stalkers can easily catch up if I run backwards.
On maps such as star station - do you still go hydra-SH? The map is huge with tons of open space, so my SH kinda suck at keeping area control.
Thanks!
I don't go SH much, but nydus should be effective, as long as overlord/creep spread for vision. From my protoss friend, of you get right outside his base with a spine spore viper SH comp, along with some static D and mobile D, you should be able to secure a game. Naturally this is a guess, as I never go SH, so I want to see what the true masters say.
So this post is mostly about ZvZ, when I'm playing ZvZ, whether I open hatch first or pool first, I'm having trouble with several things which leads my ZvZ to be kind of bad.
You see, the way I see it, there are two different scenarios. Either I am being aggressive against my opponent or he is to me. Now, this usually means Ling/Bling mirrors pretty early on.
When I'm being aggressive, how can I punish droning without hitting a spine/ling/queen/bling defense? My goal is to force units and perhaps get a few drone kills. Is it even possible to be cost efficient as the aggressive zerg against a good spine/queen defense?
Now, let's say I'm being defensive and the other guy is pretty all-in. Let's say I can fend off his attacks, but he makes a mistake and loses say 20 lings to a bane. How do I punish that mistake? If he's intent on still being aggressive, he can still sort of do so, so I'm forced to make units. Should I drone when I see him lose a lot of lings? Counter attack? tech?
This leads to another, very similar question. How do you drone when you're being all-in'd? Do you make a couple drones here and there and hope to out-macro from a small but steady drone trickle?
gateway expand into 2 base allin (any) how the fuck is zerg supposed to get a better economy in time to be able to hold? can you post a bo or something? am i suppsoed to make 50 spines and turtle on 2 base tech?? i haven't even once come close to holding off a 2 base allin after a gateway expand yet...... (high master eu)
On June 01 2013 20:00 Henk wrote: Hey blade55555, this one's mostly for you.
High master zerg. How do I hold control over my games in zvp when going swarmhost-hydra into viper -> ultra?
I feel like my swarmhosts are so immobile, protoss can just circumvent them and pick off a base left and right. I constantly feel 'scared' because I don't know what's coming - my creep is easily killed because I'm too immobile to keep him under pressure. This in turn makes me hesitate to keep moving my swarmhosts because being caught 'unsieged' means I lose the game - and blink stalkers can easily catch up if I run backwards.
On maps such as star station - do you still go hydra-SH? The map is huge with tons of open space, so my SH kinda suck at keeping area control.
Thanks!
When doing my style of swarmhosts you need to have control of watch towers, send a ling or a locust wave and then move when you know where the toss army is.
Should always have some way to know where the protoss army is so you don't get swarmhosts out of position.
On star nation I do still go swarmhosts and I will use nydus so I can be more mobile so that the protoss army can't just keep counter attacking and what not. In general once I secure 3-4 bases I am starting to add nydus as it is really good to be mobile with your army in general. I would start my nydus after I get 3-4 vipers out as those are more important at first.
How does one know when is good time to stop being agressive? Lets assume ZvP you go for ling pressure, they do okay-ish nothing great but still you do even trades. Now how does one decide if to drone or make more lings? Same analogy could be used for roach bane pressure ZvT or ling bane pressure ZvZ.
I often times find myself watching the replay and telling to myself "if only I made one more round of lings it could have been over" but in game I couldn't see that. And sometimes it's other way round "if only I made drones one round earlier"...
Are there any "rules of thumb" you use in these kind of situations - I've seen Destiny in past just make half drones half units - but that doesn't seem really smart. Or is that you just have to play basically hundreds of games where you are faced with this decision.
FYI - Im talking highish(1400pts) master level (I should have basic game sense)
Do any of you guys use cues of any sort to cycle through your series' of checking mini map/moving units/injecting/scouting/upgrading, and the like? Mostly checking mini map, that is a big problem of mine.
At what time do you start putting down your spore/spines if you're going roach to play defensively while you go to fast 3/3 ultra?
Is the time determined by the map? I've had a lot of trouble predicting when to do this & I hate doing it too early. I also hate doing it & turns out he doesn't drop at all. I'm not sure if I'm bad at scouting or there isn't a way to really tell the time. =/
Separate question so I'm making a 2nd post in case someone else wants to reply to this.
Why the heck do I see so many Pro Zergs defending hellbat drops with just zerglings? I put down a warren at 6:25 every game & I'm able to get 3-4 roaches out by the time 4+ show up every single time. Is it not cost efficient? I've found I have much better luck doing this defending than dealing with the hellbats with lings.
Might be because I have low APM though, but if you have a suggestion for something more effective or an explanation as to why I see replays of GM Zergs losing tons of lings to hellbats defending it, I'd like to know. It's rather confusing to me
On June 05 2013 00:01 Veriol wrote: How does one know when is good time to stop being agressive? Lets assume ZvP you go for ling pressure, they do okay-ish nothing great but still you do even trades. Now how does one decide if to drone or make more lings? Same analogy could be used for roach bane pressure ZvT or ling bane pressure ZvZ.
I often times find myself watching the replay and telling to myself "if only I made one more round of lings it could have been over" but in game I couldn't see that. And sometimes it's other way round "if only I made drones one round earlier"...
Are there any "rules of thumb" you use in these kind of situations - I've seen Destiny in past just make half drones half units - but that doesn't seem really smart. Or is that you just have to play basically hundreds of games where you are faced with this decision.
FYI - Im talking highish(1400pts) master level (I should have basic game sense)
Well the general rule of thumb is really how is your engagement going. Are you fighting to where most if not all his units are dying? Or are you fighting to where he loses units, but it's not a super close fight.
If you are fighting cost efficient battles then it's fine to remain being aggressive, if the fights are favoring the other player then you need to back off. It's a tough call to make as normally when you do these aggressive attacks if it doesn't do a lot of damage you are going to be behind as you are committing a lot to those kind of attacks and they need to do significant damage before you can drone and not be in a bad position.
Just a small question to structure Hotkeys: I'm using the standard hotkey setup with a few changes on the camera setup but no changes within the unit and structure hotkeys. I hate it when i need to press "H" (Hive), "I" (infestation pit), "U" (Ultra cavern) or "L" (lair) for structures and get really shortly distracted because its not in my natural flaw with my left hand. So i want to know which hotkeys you use for these structures if you are a standard hotkey user
On June 10 2013 18:47 Brainyac wrote: Just a small question to structure Hotkeys: I'm using the standard hotkey setup with a few changes on the camera setup but no changes within the unit and structure hotkeys. I hate it when i need to press "H" (Hive), "I" (infestation pit), "U" (Ultra cavern) or "L" (lair) for structures and get really shortly distracted because its not in my natural flaw with my left hand. So i want to know which hotkeys you use for these structures if you are a standard hotkey user
I am a Grid user and I think it's the best hotkey scheme over all these with separate hotkeys for each building
Is there a stable roach-based build that can get me into the mid-game? I've been watching WCS and Pro-league closely and every build I've seen that relies on Roaches has a gap around the 4:30-5:30 mark that can be easily exploited by ling aggression.
With that said am I better off doing the standard 6 min lair into muta w/ling bane if I scout my opponent getting the normal 2:50-3:00 gas timing?
1. how do you deal with MMM + hellbats? i am so tired of completely outplaying my opponents in literally every single way just to die to this stupid comp that attacks right as i would like to build mutas. so no i cant and have to go for roach ling bane while trading horribly thx to mines and hellbats and there it begins...the slow death. always have to rebuild roach ling bane while never being able to get mutas out, counterattack or kill medivacs which ultimately leaves to him killing me with 3 3 and medivacs or even before. i feel so insanely lost and think Z cant win in a macro game ZvT which is so stupid.
any help for someone with a 75% winrate in zvz and 35% in zvt...
2. how do you open in a safe way ZvT. vs 888 reaper you lose with hatch first, vs 11 11 rax you lose with pool first + pool first means you sac economy. if you go superearly dronescout to scout and do reactive hatch first/pool first you lost so much mining time that it will be even harder to defend 11 11 rax. is it impossible to get a good safe opener in ZvT and T just gets free wins or eco lead?
On June 13 2013 10:32 BatesCsC wrote: ZvZ question,
Is there a stable roach-based build that can get me into the mid-game? I've been watching WCS and Pro-league closely and every build I've seen that relies on Roaches has a gap around the 4:30-5:30 mark that can be easily exploited by ling aggression.
With that said am I better off doing the standard 6 min lair into muta w/ling bane if I scout my opponent getting the normal 2:50-3:00 gas timing?
That window can be stopped if you use an early spine, 4 queens, and when facing the possiblity of a pool-gas-hatch drop a 2nd spine at 4:50, if you don't see any move-out with your overlords outside their base, cancel the spine just before it finishes.
The key is don't rush your roach warren, rely on queens + spines and slowlings (reactionary) to defend. For later lingbane timings where they leave their base 6:15 or later, you can wall your natural with evo chambers and hold with just a wall, spine and a few queens.
On June 14 2013 06:00 willstertben wrote: best way to hold muta speedbane allins if i 3 base roach hydra? only make a couple hydras and get more spores roaches + quick infestors maybe?
Quick infestors will probably be too late, with precise and slightly greedy roach build (can use the ZvT roach-hydra build Soulkey used vs Innovation on belshir vestige in GSL finals) you can hit a 1-1 20 roach timing at 10:00 and do a lot of damage to their eco. If you can crippled a muta player then these sort of muta-ling-bane attacks are a breeze.
However assuming it's relatively even I think a few more spores would be great, but also consider two techniques for dealing with speedbanes.
1) Spread your hydras as much as possible so the banelings can't possibly be cost-efficient, this works well vs MASS speedbane and not such a high muta count.
2) The other method is to use your roaches to form a complete airtight obstacle in front of your hydras and simply aim to block the banelings from getting past. This takes a bit more finesse to execute but is useful vs high muta counts with low speedbanes. If you use method 1 vs high muta counts the mutas can engage your hydras a few at a time and do very well, despite the speedbanes not being cost-efficient. So this method 2 is recommended vs these high muta, low speedbane count attacks
1. how do you deal with MMM + hellbats? i am so tired of completely outplaying my opponents in literally every single way just to die to this stupid comp that attacks right as i would like to build mutas. so no i cant and have to go for roach ling bane while trading horribly thx to mines and hellbats and there it begins...the slow death. always have to rebuild roach ling bane while never being able to get mutas out, counterattack or kill medivacs which ultimately leaves to him killing me with 3 3 and medivacs or even before. i feel so insanely lost and think Z cant win in a macro game ZvT which is so stupid.
any help for someone with a 75% winrate in zvz and 35% in zvt...
2. how do you open in a safe way ZvT. vs 888 reaper you lose with hatch first, vs 11 11 rax you lose with pool first + pool first means you sac economy. if you go superearly dronescout to scout and do reactive hatch first/pool first you lost so much mining time that it will be even harder to defend 11 11 rax. is it impossible to get a good safe opener in ZvT and T just gets free wins or eco lead?
1) Watch the HSC finals of Snute vs Taeja. You need a much higher drone count and lower gas count in ZvT these days. Stay on just 2 gas until you fully saturate you 3rd and drop your 4th base and macro hatch THEN add 3rd-4th and MAYBE 5th-6th gases.
This will allow you to pump huge hordes of units to the point where you can overwhelm their attacks and keep your creep out.
A golden rule for HotS ZvT is NEVER ever let them deny your creep-spread or sit on your half of the map for more than a minute, once this happens you will lose. You need to maintain creep spread and map control. As soon as you lose this you can't engage cost-efficiently and it is much harder to spot and respond to drops ahead of time.
2) Hatch-first can hold 8/8/8 reaper, Even if you hatch-gas-pool. Keep 3 drones attacking the reaper at all times and pull back hurt ones. It's hard micro but it's incredibly all-in so if you survive to get a good pack of queens or ling speed out even with just 12-13 drones left over you're usually not too far behind. If you micro really well you often end up ahead! Practice the micro vs a prac partner 10 games in a row and you will find it much easier to handle.
pool-first beats 11/11 if you handle it right, though I prefer to just hatch-first and scout, cancel hatch and drop 2 gas in main base, 2 mining on each to bust out and counterattack ftw. Check out the Akilon wastes game of Soulkey vs Innovation from the last GSL Finals to see how this is done.
I would recommend just always going 13 scout, 15 hatch. Sometimes you will lose the micro battles vs 11/11 or 8/8/8 but if you practice vs those specifically and don't go into the situations with a negative mindset I guarantee you will be able to win over 50% of these.
On June 01 2013 21:33 potsos wrote: hi guys plat zerg here ! i have a problem with zvt ! they do a push with helbats marauders medivac and a few marines i have hard time dealing wiht it .i scout the armory but i donot know if it gona be drops or the push or both , i keep losing to it. any suggestion how should i defend it?
Divide your scouting information into two categories:
Signs of Greed:
1) 3rd CC 2) Double ebays 3) low barracks count 4) addons rather than constant production
Signs of Aggression:
1) Lack of all the greedy stuff above^^ 2) Factory still on reactor past 7:30 3) high barracks count 4) constant production rather than addons
Now when seeing an armory always assume there will be drops! Some roaches + spore in each mineral line and maybe a spine or two too will make it much easier. As for if there will be a follow-up push check if their is more signs of aggression, or signs of greed? If you see no 3rd CC, no ebays, extra barracks going down early, factory still producing... stop at 2-base saturation and prepare for that attack! Lots of roaches is the way, they can micro very well vs lingbane so pure roach and stuttering/spreading vs hellbats is the key!
1. how do you deal with MMM + hellbats? i am so tired of completely outplaying my opponents in literally every single way just to die to this stupid comp that attacks right as i would like to build mutas. so no i cant and have to go for roach ling bane while trading horribly thx to mines and hellbats and there it begins...the slow death. always have to rebuild roach ling bane while never being able to get mutas out, counterattack or kill medivacs which ultimately leaves to him killing me with 3 3 and medivacs or even before. i feel so insanely lost and think Z cant win in a macro game ZvT which is so stupid.
any help for someone with a 75% winrate in zvz and 35% in zvt...
2. how do you open in a safe way ZvT. vs 888 reaper you lose with hatch first, vs 11 11 rax you lose with pool first + pool first means you sac economy. if you go superearly dronescout to scout and do reactive hatch first/pool first you lost so much mining time that it will be even harder to defend 11 11 rax. is it impossible to get a good safe opener in ZvT and T just gets free wins or eco lead?
1) Watch the HSC finals of Snute vs Taeja. You need a much higher drone count and lower gas count in ZvT these days. Stay on just 2 gas until you fully saturate you 3rd and drop your 4th base and macro hatch THEN add 3rd-4th and MAYBE 5th-6th gases.
This will allow you to pump huge hordes of units to the point where you can overwhelm their attacks and keep your creep out.
A golden rule for HotS ZvT is NEVER ever let them deny your creep-spread or sit on your half of the map for more than a minute, once this happens you will lose. You need to maintain creep spread and map control. As soon as you lose this you can't engage cost-efficiently and it is much harder to spot and respond to drops ahead of time.
2) Hatch-first can hold 8/8/8 reaper, Even if you hatch-gas-pool. Keep 3 drones attacking the reaper at all times and pull back hurt ones. It's hard micro but it's incredibly all-in so if you survive to get a good pack of queens or ling speed out even with just 12-13 drones left over you're usually not too far behind. If you micro really well you often end up ahead! Practice the micro vs a prac partner 10 games in a row and you will find it much easier to handle.
pool-first beats 11/11 if you handle it right, though I prefer to just hatch-first and scout, cancel hatch and drop 2 gas in main base, 2 mining on each to bust out and counterattack ftw. Check out the Akilon wastes game of Soulkey vs Innovation from the last GSL Finals to see how this is done.
I would recommend just always going 13 scout, 15 hatch. Sometimes you will lose the micro battles vs 11/11 or 8/8/8 but if you practice vs those specifically and don't go into the situations with a negative mindset I guarantee you will be able to win over 50% of these.
Question to all pros. Can you give suggestions or tips about Swarm Hosts? Can you recommend something good to watch, or builds, or just suggest what to remove, edit or add to that SH guide?
Hey guys! As a masters Zerg I have huge trouble lategame against Terran. It seems like I gain a commanding lead in the muta ling bling phase of the game but once I begin to make ultras the game seems to fall apart. Is the solution just to conserve my mutalisk flock to defend drops and harrass or what composition should I be aiming for?
how are you guys dealing with the faster marine/mine pushes? I'm having a lot of trouble with them bc my lair usually isn't finished in time to get an overseer. do i just get a spore, mass ling, and pray i have life's micro?
On June 27 2013 01:59 EmNGiantNome wrote: Hey guys! As a masters Zerg I have huge trouble lategame against Terran. It seems like I gain a commanding lead in the muta ling bling phase of the game but once I begin to make ultras the game seems to fall apart. Is the solution just to conserve my mutalisk flock to defend drops and harrass or what composition should I be aiming for?
Keep building lings and conserve your mutalisks so you have mobile drop-defense. Always have some units dedicated to wait for drops, for instance a squad of 12 lings and 2 banes or 20 lings can do very well even vs double drops if you get right underneath it. Leaving 2 of these squads at both main base (defend your tech!) and an exposed base far away from here will make reacting to drops much easier. If you find yourself with only ultralisks use a single ultralisk for each of these drop-defense "squads".
Make sure you use infestors with your ultralisks and it's incredibly hard for terran to be cost-efficient!
On June 27 2013 02:10 joon wrote: how are you guys dealing with the faster marine/mine pushes? I'm having a lot of trouble with them bc my lair usually isn't finished in time to get an overseer. do i just get a spore, mass ling, and pray i have life's micro?
This sounds like it's very early pushes. As soon as you see a mine drop a spore at your natural and move it down to wherever the mines are for the cleanup.
For the actual engage just attacking with lings or roaches is fine. Spread your units out before going in. If they're clumped up move your lings behind their force before A-moving so the splash works against him. If the marines are spread out, manually box and spread out your zerglings, or simply flank from multiple angles so they do this on their own.
No matter what you should always see such an early push coming and have time to get suitable units out. If it ever reaches the point where the fight lasts over a minute and widow mines get multiple shots off, somethings gone wrong!
On June 27 2013 02:10 joon wrote: how are you guys dealing with the faster marine/mine pushes? I'm having a lot of trouble with them bc my lair usually isn't finished in time to get an overseer. do i just get a spore, mass ling, and pray i have life's micro?
This sounds like it's very early pushes. As soon as you see a mine drop a spore at your natural and move it down to wherever the mines are for the cleanup.
For the actual engage just attacking with lings or roaches is fine. Spread your units out before going in. If they're clumped up move your lings behind their force before A-moving so the splash works against him. If the marines are spread out, manually box and spread out your zerglings, or simply flank from multiple angles so they do this on their own.
No matter what you should always see such an early push coming and have time to get suitable units out. If it ever reaches the point where the fight lasts over a minute and widow mines get multiple shots off, somethings gone wrong!
usually comes around 9:30
so when i see this coming i should drop a roach warren? ive been trying to just defend with ling/bane but its very fragile in such small numbers
edit: when i say see it coming, i mean see that he's not doing the usual greedy 3cc,double ebay before rax
This may be a silly questions, but is it possible to beat mech without going heavy into roach/hydra/SH? Is it possible to stay alive with sling/bling/muta -> ultra?
The reason I ask is because strongly prefer playing with fast armies ^^
I would like to get some refinement on a build i use, would probably require some play testing if you would like to answer this question. First off I think its good to know i play mid-high masters.
Okay against terran I go 14 scout 15 hatch. I only continue on with the build if I scout no gas and a rax or a CC first (tells me no reapers)
If I see this I then continue with the build and go for 18 hatch. From here I continue to macro, get my 3 queens at the same time yadda yadda. About 5:30-6:00 I grab 4 gas. When I have 100 gas I get burrow and a roach warren. I then proceed to get about 15 roaches which I push with about 7:30-8:00. Burrow makes these roaches survive much longer than 19 roaches could which allows me to be aggressive longer while i macro up. Sometimes this wins the game sometimes it allows me to get four base. What Im wondering is what specifics could be changed with this build (gas timings, drone counts) to make these roaches come faster but not sacrificing to much economy.
On June 27 2013 23:42 tili wrote: This may be a silly questions, but is it possible to beat mech without going heavy into roach/hydra/SH? Is it possible to stay alive with sling/bling/muta -> ultra?
The reason I ask is because strongly prefer playing with fast armies ^^
It could work sometimes, we see it sometimes in pro matches but most of the time the zerg just gets crushed. But you can play other style than roach hydra sh^^, usually better with viper though
On June 27 2013 23:42 tili wrote: This may be a silly questions, but is it possible to beat mech without going heavy into roach/hydra/SH? Is it possible to stay alive with sling/bling/muta -> ultra?
The reason I ask is because strongly prefer playing with fast armies ^^
A composition Ive found to be really good against mech is roach hydra baneling surprisingly. What you want to do if macro up first, mech doesnt move out for awhile. Then you get your basic roach hydra army and 24 banelings(1 page). Now you also want overlord speed and drops for when you attack so dont forget these upgrades. 24 banelings fit into 6 overlords
When you attack, spread out overlords and your army, splash in deadly. focus on dropping banes on hellbats, then tanks. Roaches and hydras clean up the rest its so fun
On June 27 2013 23:42 tili wrote: This may be a silly questions, but is it possible to beat mech without going heavy into roach/hydra/SH? Is it possible to stay alive with sling/bling/muta -> ultra?
The reason I ask is because strongly prefer playing with fast armies ^^
It could work sometimes, we see it sometimes in pro matches but most of the time the zerg just gets crushed. But you can play other style than roach hydra sh^^, usually better with viper though
When a pro goes sling/bling/muta vs. mech, what is their general approach? Just lots of backstabs till ultras? Or is there a point when you want to trade? Like, when you get 2/2 for lings/blings?
I love HOTS and I want to experiment wiht a use of burrow early in zvt. I want to ask about distribution of resourcees in the build and any help would be appreciated.
At the moment I'm getting a single gas at 25 and staying on it, getting burrow after 4 queens then lingspeed, 3 more gas as I take lingspeed, then bane nest upgrades and lair as normal. I think there's good surprise potential for defence and the delay on an early third by t is interesting.
However my worries are
1. do i just NEED a gas at 18 because mass reapers (and/or scout for this)? 2. am i too delayed on my tech by going for 100 more gas? should i get ups first to not be behind or lair first for overseers? 3. I am getting 4 queens and starting burrow as the second set pops (i have just enough gas with 25gas), which means I expo at 0800 ish. Should I instead get the third at 0600 with 2 queens? What do dudes that go 2 queens do for creep spread?
Does a counter build against the +1 ling, fast 3rd base, delayed tech style in ZvZ exist? Which army composition should i go for? When i went for 2base Muta, how can i secure a 3rd base and how can i defend against the higher muta count of my opponent (because he didnt used his gas for banelings and has more gas mining)?
On June 27 2013 23:42 tili wrote: This may be a silly questions, but is it possible to beat mech without going heavy into roach/hydra/SH? Is it possible to stay alive with sling/bling/muta -> ultra?
The reason I ask is because strongly prefer playing with fast armies ^^
It could work sometimes, we see it sometimes in pro matches but most of the time the zerg just gets crushed. But you can play other style than roach hydra sh^^, usually better with viper though
When a pro goes sling/bling/muta vs. mech, what is their general approach? Just lots of backstabs till ultras? Or is there a point when you want to trade? Like, when you get 2/2 for lings/blings?
They don't, because it's bad. Hellbats shred lings it's not even funny. Do yourself a favor and use hydra-SH-viper. (You won't see much mech in tvz anyway because hydra-sh-viper is so terribly good against it.)
On June 28 2013 06:25 feddeathlon wrote: Does a counter build against the +1 ling, fast 3rd base, delayed tech style in ZvZ exist? Which army composition should i go for? When i went for 2base Muta, how can i secure a 3rd base and how can i defend against the higher muta count of my opponent (because he didnt used his gas for banelings and has more gas mining)?
You could try killing him with a timing (roach baneling or simply ling baneling) because he's got his gas into upgrades. Quick lair into muta is terrible against 1/1 lings into mutas, unless you somehow defend really well and manage to get your third up quickly.
On June 28 2013 06:15 Stardroid wrote: I love HOTS and I want to experiment wiht a use of burrow early in zvt. I want to ask about distribution of resourcees in the build and any help would be appreciated.
At the moment I'm getting a single gas at 25 and staying on it, getting burrow after 4 queens then lingspeed, 3 more gas as I take lingspeed, then bane nest upgrades and lair as normal. I think there's good surprise potential for defence and the delay on an early third by t is interesting.
However my worries are
1. do i just NEED a gas at 18 because mass reapers (and/or scout for this)? 2. am i too delayed on my tech by going for 100 more gas? should i get ups first to not be behind or lair first for overseers? 3. I am getting 4 queens and starting burrow as the second set pops (i have just enough gas with 25gas), which means I expo at 0800 ish. Should I instead get the third at 0600 with 2 queens? What do dudes that go 2 queens do for creep spread?
Thanks for any help Stardroid Space
There's no real need of getting burrow when going ling bling, because it doesn't help much. You should open roaches if you want to incorporate burrow, because burrowed roaches heal very quickly. I recommend DRG's 10 roach rush, and then following it up with another wave of speed+burrow roaches off 2 bases. This shouldn't work vs reaper first though, because they'll be getting a free scout of your RW and bunker it up.
On June 28 2013 07:04 Stardroid wrote: I don't really want to rush for anything Henk, hence why I plugged it into a macro build. Is there really no utility?
It's not a good macro build if you're getting burrow BEFORE ling speed and not doing anything with it. If you're not going to use it for a rush or anything, just get it after you've started your tech (so after 2/2 and when you've got some mutas). The 300 minerals terran will have to use to kill your ling at his third is NOT worth delaying your speed+rest of your tech for a full minute.
I guess you could use it if you have some really sick burow baneling plans, but I would advice against plugging it into a macro build like that. Not to mention a 25 gas is really late vs a reaper build, too. A burrow roach push is totally viable though.
On June 27 2013 02:10 joon wrote: how are you guys dealing with the faster marine/mine pushes? I'm having a lot of trouble with them bc my lair usually isn't finished in time to get an overseer. do i just get a spore, mass ling, and pray i have life's micro?
This sounds like it's very early pushes. As soon as you see a mine drop a spore at your natural and move it down to wherever the mines are for the cleanup.
For the actual engage just attacking with lings or roaches is fine. Spread your units out before going in. If they're clumped up move your lings behind their force before A-moving so the splash works against him. If the marines are spread out, manually box and spread out your zerglings, or simply flank from multiple angles so they do this on their own.
No matter what you should always see such an early push coming and have time to get suitable units out. If it ever reaches the point where the fight lasts over a minute and widow mines get multiple shots off, somethings gone wrong!
usually comes around 9:30
so when i see this coming i should drop a roach warren? ive been trying to just defend with ling/bane but its very fragile in such small numbers
edit: when i say see it coming, i mean see that he's not doing the usual greedy 3cc,double ebay before rax
As I said lings or roaches is fine, it's more about how you use your units and how many you have is more important. If you aren't confident with the micro I described then sticking to roach-based play will suit you better. Check out some of Blade's guides for working roaches in as standard.
On June 28 2013 17:35 Homework wrote: How do I defeat turtletoss into mass air? Roach / hydra timing or should I shoot for the lategame?
A couple things you can do if you don't want to do a roach/hydra timing that may or may not work.
You can do the turtle swarmhost style with mass static defense (spines/spores) with swarmhost/viper/corruptor/queen.
You can do swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper/infestor and not do mass static defense.
It really is up to you I can't really comment too much on the turtle style because I find it boring and unnecessary to win late game zvp and have thus never tried it. I refuse to play that style as that is why I quit wol was due to turtle style bl/corr/infestor so if you want to know more on that I believe babyknight vs stephano showcases it and I imagine some other pro can go over it that does this type of play.
With sh/ultra/hydra/viper unless he's going pure sky toss (no splash like no templar no colossi) I would go swarmhost/hydra/viper, the vipers to abduct the air units. If he is going skytoss + templar/colossi I would add some ultra so you can kill them as fast as possible with the swarmhost while using hydra/swarmhost to abduct and kill the air units.
I actually wrote a guide (with replays) on how I beat protoss late game. While this guide is 2 months old now I still play the exact same way late game and still win most of the time:
On June 30 2013 14:31 darkphantom wrote: and how do u deal with Maurader/Hellbat ? Mauraders > Roaches & Blings Hellbats > lings :/
Roach/ling/bane will beat marauder/hellbat. Just need to have enough units. You can't go by that logic of marauders > roach/bane (it's not unless it's mid/late game).
Been struggling lately do find a good set out build for the 1-1 speedbane/roach all in(3 base) that soulkey did vs innovation. Anyone got a set out plan for it? and advice when executing it?
just got back into sc2. currently plat kr. ran into the maurauder, hellbat marine timing on ladder from masters terran. i held it off didnt lose many drone but he did kill my upgrades. after that he just kept dropping and pushing forward and i couldnt hold it. i was doing roach ling bling. ussually works but his timing hits just befor i can get the macro going. any ideas on how to defend this easier? i did spine spore per base but just couldnt trade efficient against him. on a side note when is it a good time to scout protoss atm. been running into numerious 2 base all ins all different but effective and hard to stop. just need few tips on that normal macro verse toss im fine, its the all ins atm.
i know zerg mainly relies on good economy and remaxing very quickly ( in the ideal pro world at least ), but what i always fail at is remaxing after a terran pushes with some armies and have a little portion of it left ( while u on ling bane infestor muta tech ) nothing i can make would make it out of the hatch if the terran manages to get to ur nat . lings will roast the second they pop out. infestors useless. banes u got no lings ..mutas are crap... and boom u got 0 larva :/
Sup Folkz, I just switched to Hots - i was high master back in WoL - usually agresssive player
ZVP : i was wondering if the old 3base 4 hatch ling muta builds were still viable; i dont really like the new zerg units? does that ling/blingdrop dimaga old style still work?
ZVT : Is roach hydra a good way to defend against drops/medvacs (with the infestor being alot weaker) liek stephano started doing at the end of WoL? are mutas the better choice for that matter with their new speed?
best way to deal with mines/mine drops early on -> need a quick lair?
ZVZ : what are the current trends for this matchup? in my first placement it looked like the early old baneling(13gas13pool) play timing is really off
I'm asking this cause im currently working full time so i don't really have time to watch these prozerg streams to learn
Hi all, I just watched Day9's daily on Stardust's zealot, sentry -> archon push, and I was really disappointed that Day9 didn't detail any real weaknesses, either than showing it being overwhelmed with Hyun's roaches and lings...
Do any of the pro's have any advice for outmaneuvering or countering this push? it's daily #602.
Thanks and <3
edit: i usually set my play up for muta/ling and sometimes bane style, so if it's possible to hold with those tools... it'd be great to know!
1. Does 14 pool 3 hatch before gas work versus gateway expands which take their natural with one gate? If so, should I use the standard 6 minute gas timing of take gas earlier? Should I get extra Queens in order to defend the possible earlier attacks like "the man-train"?
2. What is a good timing to make extra lings for scouting/denying pylons versus: 2.1. Gateway expands? 2.2. FFEs? I'm talking about making 8-16 lings, not more unless they are applying pressure!
3. When should I scout versus a gateway expand, and what should I be looking for?
Hi, here is my question : if you play a ZvT on Bel'Shir Vestige, is the Ling/Bane/Muta style viable or do I need to go roaches or something ? Because I had great success with muta ling bane so far until high diamond, but it works better for me on big maps. It seems that on this one, I've reached a cap and cant deny Terran's 4th while keeping mine up if he plays good. Is it just me, or should I just veto this map?
In ZvZ when you use late gas style into roaches. What is best response vs fast ling speed into third into roaches? I usually find myself with much later third and only slightly bigger ammount of roaches, but defeneders advantage beeing as huge as it is in ZvZ, it can usually carry my opponents trough that.
On July 06 2013 03:33 Veriol wrote: In ZvZ when you use late gas style into roaches. What is best response vs fast ling speed into third into roaches? I usually find myself with much later third and only slightly bigger ammount of roaches, but defeneders advantage beeing as huge as it is in ZvZ, it can usually carry my opponents trough that.
You can either force units(lings since roaches won't be option for them) by sending roaches forward, or take 3rd right as they take theirs after 4 roaches or so. As long as you don't fall too far behind in economy, your upgrade advantage as well as tech advantage(roaches) should carry you over to next phase of the game.
Hey, I'm trying to get back into the game after a long hiatus. I was a Masters zerg in WoL but I've been hovering between plat and diamond so far in HotS. My mechanics are a lot worse and I need to work on that, but I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with alot of the new styles of play.
against zerg I can never go into a macro game without banelings for defense after hatch first, which I guess isn't too bad, but I also have trouble securing a third without getting mutas or hydras out. I also have a lot of trouble scouting in zvz before overlord speed and I never really know when to pick that up.
i'm pretty solid against terran except when they go mech on a smaller map. I just can't hold a third/fourth and don't have the space to pick them apart before theyre at my nat. I like swarmhosts alot vs mech, but I have trouble using them on smaller maps.
This is all I can really think of now, thanks for the thread