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United Kingdom14103 Posts
OMG wow a T guide, op is amazing.
To those criticizing cc first, of course it dies to certain things, that doesn't mean the build is bad, it's just like every build, it has counters (albeit counters to something like 1 rax fe are soft counters, but they are still in existence), there are builds that super aggressive builds straight out lose to and builds that super eco builds straight out lose to, doesn't mean they're bad builds.
Edit: Put their instead of there lol
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Just tested it with some games, as expected don't work a single game.
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On May 20 2013 01:04 megid wrote: Just tested it with some games, as expected don't work a single game.
Post the replays, I'd love to take a look and see what responses the Protoss did to exploit the build; if there's a viable 100% counter I need to know and for that I need replays. If you can, use drop.sc, as it's easier to download from, and specify the league so I know what I'm looking for from Protoss play.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 20 2013 01:11 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 01:04 megid wrote: Just tested it with some games, as expected don't work a single game. Post the replays, I'd love to take a look and see what responses the Protoss did to exploit the build; if there's a viable 100% counter I need to know and for that I need replays. If you can, use drop.sc, as it's easier to download from, and specify the league so I know what I'm looking for from Protoss play.
This build will only work at a high level because the economic advantage due to CC first is only noticeable compared to 1 rax fe if you have constant scv production/perfect early game mechanics, so like you said you need to know what league he's from.
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CC first in PvT is always viable IMO, it's possible to hold off any aggression by pulling scv or bunker, and Terran should come out even at the very least. If there was a 100% counter to CC first, ie reapers in TvT, then the top terrans as in innovation and flash would not consistently go for such a build.
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In case some of you don't watch SPL, check out the additions I made to the OP. There was an absolutely sick game played in the STX Soul / CJ Entus match the other day where Innovation did basically this build, and defended a proxy Oracle build blindly, followed by a choo-choo train of pain with SCVs, Marines, Marauders, Medivacs, and Vikings to absolutely smash herO. Beautiful game which shows you how you should be reacting and playing if you're faced with that sort of cheesy stuff.
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Awesome guide. Also thanks for FirstGear for his contributions. I saw this thread shortly after I created a 14cc build myself, and this has been very helpful. As I gain experience with 14CC I will return for futher comments. Again, great work and thanks for the enormous effort!
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On May 20 2013 02:25 Jazzman88 wrote: In case some of you don't watch SPL, check out the additions I made to the OP. There was an absolutely sick game played in the STX Soul / CJ Entus match the other day where Innovation did basically this build, and defended a proxy Oracle build blindly, followed by a choo-choo train of pain with SCVs, Marines, Marauders, Medivacs, and Vikings to absolutely smash herO. Beautiful game which shows you how you should be reacting and playing if you're faced with that sort of cheesy stuff. +1. People should start to copy Innovation more, he is a monster.
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Innovation is doing this BO and it works a lot for him
THX
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I just wanted to pump this thread since it's such a great write up. At first glance I thought that this was stupid build order. Then I looked at Innovation doing it and I felt bad for thinking so. Great guide!
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lol, I just had a pretty great idea that I just got in my head. Tried it out against a clanmate and it worked with great success, mid-masters vs mid masters.
What if you went CC first, except you built the CC at your third/hidden base on the map, and then went for quick 3 CC by taking your 3rd CC at your natural with a bunker? It's actually relatively safe (unless the toss scouts your hidden base, but most won't suspect it), since without anything in your main base, they may think it's a proxy (my clanmate did, and he proceeded to panic), so they will play relatively defensively and not attack you. It got me to a super huge lead (which I threw by accidentally hotkeying ghosts with army, so I stimmed VERY late), but it set me up for the late game very, very well.
Just a thought I had when I was thinking about CC first lately. I suppose this would still die to a Protoss who was going to decide to all-in you regardless if he spotted your CC first or not.
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On May 25 2013 07:12 awakenx wrote: lol, I just had a pretty great idea that I just got in my head. Tried it out against a clanmate and it worked with great success, mid-masters vs mid masters.
What if you went CC first, except you built the CC at your third/hidden base on the map, and then went for quick 3 CC by taking your 3rd CC at your natural with a bunker? It's actually relatively safe (unless the toss scouts your hidden base, but most won't suspect it), since without anything in your main base, they may think it's a proxy (my clanmate did, and he proceeded to panic), so they will play relatively defensively and not attack you. It got me to a super huge lead (which I threw by accidentally hotkeying ghosts with army, so I stimmed VERY late), but it set me up for the late game very, very well.
Just a thought I had when I was thinking about CC first lately. I suppose this would still die to a Protoss who was going to decide to all-in you regardless if he spotted your CC first or not. Or Protoss could count your SCVs, or see your 2'35 rax and understand what you're doing. Hiding your first CC before floating it back on your natural for mindgames is OK (Taeja did it once near Ohana's third), but leaving your first CC on whichever spot you used then going for a quick third CC on your natural afterwards is just too risky.
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On May 25 2013 07:12 awakenx wrote: lol, I just had a pretty great idea that I just got in my head. Tried it out against a clanmate and it worked with great success, mid-masters vs mid masters.
What if you went CC first, except you built the CC at your third/hidden base on the map, and then went for quick 3 CC by taking your 3rd CC at your natural with a bunker? It's actually relatively safe (unless the toss scouts your hidden base, but most won't suspect it), since without anything in your main base, they may think it's a proxy (my clanmate did, and he proceeded to panic), so they will play relatively defensively and not attack you. It got me to a super huge lead (which I threw by accidentally hotkeying ghosts with army, so I stimmed VERY late), but it set me up for the late game very, very well.
Just a thought I had when I was thinking about CC first lately. I suppose this would still die to a Protoss who was going to decide to all-in you regardless if he spotted your CC first or not.
I think its really dangerous and I wouldn't do it. If the probe scouts the cc, it will be significantly delayed. You won't be able to pull scvs to stop the probe harassment as efficiently due to the increased distance. You'll get supply blocked longer at 19. You'll subsequently be weaker against early pokes and gateway attacks. The bigger distance between the bases, and stalkers ability to kite marines will make it really hard to defend both bases too. Blink stalker attacks will be extremely difficult to stop. Oracles also will be much harder to defend as marines won't be able to cover both places as easily. Its very coinflippy and I personally don't think its worth it. Your only method of denying scouting is marines, and stalkers and probes are both faster. I don't think you can safely hide things like that.
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On May 25 2013 07:12 awakenx wrote: lol, I just had a pretty great idea that I just got in my head. Tried it out against a clanmate and it worked with great success, mid-masters vs mid masters.
What if you went CC first, except you built the CC at your third/hidden base on the map, and then went for quick 3 CC by taking your 3rd CC at your natural with a bunker? It's actually relatively safe (unless the toss scouts your hidden base, but most won't suspect it), since without anything in your main base, they may think it's a proxy (my clanmate did, and he proceeded to panic), so they will play relatively defensively and not attack you. It got me to a super huge lead (which I threw by accidentally hotkeying ghosts with army, so I stimmed VERY late), but it set me up for the late game very, very well.
Just a thought I had when I was thinking about CC first lately. I suppose this would still die to a Protoss who was going to decide to all-in you regardless if he spotted your CC first or not.
Whenever you get an idea like this, I encourage you to think of the following: If I did this without the 'trick', would it still be playable? Because you cannot assume that your opponent will never scout it.
In this case, in a TvP, going 3 CC with 1 Barracks in HotS is suicide, even if you're doing it with Barracks first. Any Gateway pressure kills you immediately, as well as auto-loss versus any kind of Oracle play. CC-first is already viable against pretty much any build, so there's no reason to do that beyond giving yourself a mental pat on the back for 'tricking' your opponent. Don't succumb to that temptation.
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I did figure that it probably wasn't all that viable since it relies on the Protoss to scout/respond properly in response to fast 3 CC. I thought it would just be a fun idea with this build that I thought of when I was playing a Bo3 match against my clanmate, after all, new ideas are always nice.
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Minor addition to the guide: I found an amusing VoD of a master's Terran player holding and winning versus an in-base proxy 2-gate (unscouted) with a CC-first. Highly entertaining game, and some good basics that can be applied to almost any cheese. Specifically, the idea of walling and lifting CCs to circumvent a wall he can't breach while your Marines kill everything is viable against Cannon Rushes as well as the proxy gateways.
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Maybe I am biased because I have lost 13 games in a row vs Protoss with this build, but I do not believe this is safe or viable below GM. Watching the VODs, there was very little 1 base play. MKP got SMASHED by the voids and I don't think there was anything he could have done to stop it. Innovation built 3 bunkers (which I am still not clear on how he knew it was coming or how he knew when to pull SCVs and lost every SCV at his natural to Huk's 3 gate pressure after expo and was way behind. It was a very close game, despite Huk never having made a single colossus or templar at the 22 minute mark. W T F ? ! Taeja was WAY behind Sase and only won because Sase accidentally split his army up navigating a cliff, I think most diamond players could win that game if they resumed replay right before that mistake. I was hoping that this guide finally would break my TvP funk since HOTS, but honestly watching those VODs after reading your guide through and practicing it 30 + times... I was on the verge of tears last night. Every single Pro Terran win, even top Koreans over foreigners, required the Protoss to fuck up horribly. I don't think you can hold a competent 1 base build reliably with CC first.
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On May 21 2013 08:15 TheMagicianSC2 wrote:Innovation is doing this BO and it works a lot for him THX That is like saying his keyboard works well for him. It has absolutely nothing to do with the build.
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On May 15 2013 19:55 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 07:36 intense555 wrote:On May 05 2013 16:36 Figgy wrote: If Protoss sees CC first, you are auto-dead to any good player doing a proxy oracle. You can't scout it unless you get extremely lucky. There is no way you are going to get all the intel you need without a reaper unless your intuition is extremely on the ball.
CC first is like Nexus first (dies to a reaper) now. You can do it, but you have to pray they make all the wrong decisions or don't scout you.
Isn't worth the trade off of 1 rax expand unless you are huge gambling man. 1 rax fe way safer and doesnt run the same risk of dieing to oracles, early stalker msc, etc.... 1 rax FE isn't safe vs oracles. You don't have enough marines to stop the first oracle. You still have to scout the proxy and kill the plyon powering it. Interestingly, you can get 6 marines by 5:10 with this build. Which is just enough marines to kill one oracle. But with a marine defense, you can only defend one location, which means the natural has to be lifted and moved to the main. This build isn't safe vs voidray all ins. Every build in that matchup is a gimmicky coinflip. Get used to it.
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On June 08 2013 01:07 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 19:55 T.O.P. wrote:On May 15 2013 07:36 intense555 wrote:On May 05 2013 16:36 Figgy wrote: If Protoss sees CC first, you are auto-dead to any good player doing a proxy oracle. You can't scout it unless you get extremely lucky. There is no way you are going to get all the intel you need without a reaper unless your intuition is extremely on the ball.
CC first is like Nexus first (dies to a reaper) now. You can do it, but you have to pray they make all the wrong decisions or don't scout you.
Isn't worth the trade off of 1 rax expand unless you are huge gambling man. 1 rax fe way safer and doesnt run the same risk of dieing to oracles, early stalker msc, etc.... 1 rax FE isn't safe vs oracles. You don't have enough marines to stop the first oracle. You still have to scout the proxy and kill the plyon powering it. Interestingly, you can get 6 marines by 5:10 with this build. Which is just enough marines to kill one oracle. But with a marine defense, you can only defend one location, which means the natural has to be lifted and moved to the main. This build isn't safe vs voidray all ins. Every build in that matchup is a gimmicky coinflip. Get used to it.
You actually have more marines from 5 min onwards with a cc first build than you would with a 1 rax fe or a 1rax reactor expand build. So this build can crush voidray all ins easy.
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