Starcraft is kind of like a mixture between chess and poker. It's all about making the right moves to counter your opponent and making sure you block his moves in turn. It's about planning and making smart decisions to get ahead. And it's about hiding and gathering information...making the best guess off of imperfect information.
Scouting is an integral part of Starcraft. Combined with mechanics and decision making, it creates the triangle of vital skills necessary to compete against others. But what makes scouting so much more difficult for players to figure out? Often times, you'll hear stories about players who have strong mechanics but miss scouting something or scout something too late and still lose despite their ability to execute the correct decision quickly and effectively. Even pro players sometimes get stumped by the smallest detail missed in scouting. The margin that you gain from scouting can often be the difference between winning and losing, and at the top levels, that margin is especially razor sharp.
Has this ever happened to you? I'm sure it has.
When we look at lower levels -- gold, platinum, and diamond levels, where everyone is starting to become mechanically decent -- we see a lot of people complaining about how they can't scout something or are unable to make the right decisions at the right times to stop incoming attacks, and one of the most common places these experiences take place is specifically in Zerg versus Protoss. In this matchup, Protoss has what seems like an infinite number of varying all-ins, pressures, and other options to throw at the Zerg. In addition, it often feels as if an overreaction to Protoss pressure is just as detrimental as not reacting at all. Obviously, the difficulty of finding the balance between underreacting and overreacting to pressure can quickly become frustrating for Zerg players, who constantly find themselves with the inability to find out what they need to know and make the right decisions to deal with it correctly. Luckily, TL Strategy is here to save the day!
This guide will focus on the use of timings to scout, deflect, and react to the Protoss as well as a few techniques that will help immensely in the scouting process. The ultimate goal is to feel in control of the game, confident in the flow, and eliminate the fear of attacks that won't come while confidently preparing for the ones that do come.
The Basics of Zerg Scouting
While most people might be familiar with the idea of scouting, there's still a large population on Battle.Net who don't fully understand the concept and how to use it. The single most important rule of scouting is: have a reason for scouting. If you can use timings to gauge your opponent or blindly deflect attacks, you simply don't need to have a full scout of your opponent. You need to be thinking about reasons for why you're scouting. In this guide, the main focus is on getting strong map vision on your side of the map in the early game, and then scouting at key timings to reveal the tech path of your opponent and bring to light any possible pressure coming your way.
Since Zerg is not always guaranteed a full scout, much of Zerg scouting has to do with checking for expansions, army movement, and small overlord adjustments in order to get a good periphery of what your opponent is doing. For everything else that you can't get information on, you just have to rely on timestamps, or times that certain events or attacks should take place. Simply put, using timestamps is essentially waiting for your opponent to do something at a certain time and reacting according to what actually happens. For instance, in ZvP, if the Protoss goes robo and doesn't move out of his base by 10:00, you can assume it's probably a colossus all-in or some kind of later third base. In the words of Day9: "Either your opponent is just not doing an attack or he's doing it badly, and you'll beat it anyway."
Early zergling and overlord scouting is crucial for Zerg versus Protoss, especially when going for a triple hatchery opening. The primary purpose of this scouting is to catch probes and prevent any proxy pylons from going down on your side of the map (thus preventing cannon rushes or powerful warpgate pressure) as well as to set yourself up for future spotting. If you can prevent any proxies from going down, you severely limit the Protoss's ability to be aggressive in the early parts of the game and give yourself a lot of breathing room.
With your initial four lings, you need to split them up and cover or spot almost every inch of the map to catch any sneaky probes as well as check the Protoss's potential third bases. The primary focus points should be:
Spotting your third hatchery
Xel'Naga Watchtowers
Primary pathways
Common spots to hide probes/proxies
Possible third base locations
Additionally, one ling should always run directly to your opponent's natural to check the buildings going down and look for chronoboost usage. This ling is also very important for spotting probes leaving the Protoss base, and coupled with overlord scouting, you can get full map coverage and set you up to scout later in the game. Most of the time, your overlords will go to generalized locations regardless of the map. However, on a two player map, the overlord placement is fairly specific and a little bit more straightfoward:
(Initial) - Overlord checks your opponent's natural and ramp before moving to an area to spot the natural gases (9) - Overlord moves directly to outside your opponent's main base; if you hatch first, you can spot the hatchery with this overlord to prevent cannon rushes (17) - Overlord checks a central pathway on its way to spot for a common proxy location (26) - Overlord spots any other main pathways and/or common proxy locations on its way to the potential Protoss third
Subsequent overlords are just placed in dead space areas or abuseable cliffs around the map to get lots of map vision. The first two overlords can swap positions depending on the map and build of your opponent. On four-player maps, these rules are also bent a little as both the first and second overlord are forced to scout the location of your opponent. All in all, though, the idea is the same: spot the natural, main, third base, and common proxy spots.
Here are a couple of images with common ling/overlord scouting patterns:
Scouting for Early Aggression and One Base Play
Your very first scouting information comes when your overlord arrives at your opponent's natural. At this point, the main thing that you're looking for is the timing of the nexus, which will indicate the type of aggression that can be headed your way and approximately when it will hit, or if any is coming at all. The Protoss player can either be going for a fast expand (before 4:00), a delayed expansion (around 4:30), or one base tech (Later than 5:00). If your overlord cannot get to your opponent's base to spot for this, such as cross positions on a 4-player map, the ling that you send to poke can get the proper information.
Against an early expansion, you can be sure that no real threat is headed your way aside from a potential cannon rush or a light poke with gateway units, and you can continue to drone. However, against later nexus timings, there are some considerations you must make.
Gateway/MSC pokes
Most often when you see a delayed nexus, you can expect some kind of early poke with some combination of zealots and stalkers with a MSC (most typically either two zealots or zealot/stalker). The primary purpose of this pressure is to force out lings and potentially pick off a queen or drones. The ling that spots the natural will be able to see the units moving out and give you the time to react accordingly. To deflect it, you simply need to produce two to four additional sets of lings and have two queens in the proper position to defend, most often at the third. For this reason, it's often more imperative to invest in a creep tumor first with one of your queens to facilitate the movement between bases better.
Defending small numbers of gateway units is easy
During this pressure it's important to be watching your opponent's natural for the timing of the nexus. Normally a nexus goes down at 4:30 during the pressure, but if it's later than that it can signal a one base all-in.
One Base All-ins
An absent nexus clearly indicates some kind of one base play. Almost every one base all-in is going to hit at 6:00-6:30 at the earliest, meaning that you need to have the proper defenses in time to defend. If you see no nexus by 5:00, scout with your second overlord into the main to check for tech (either stargate, robo, twilight, or lots of gateways) and forgo getting a third hatchery, cancelling it if you already started it.
At home, you need static defense -- either spines or spores depending on what your opponent's tech is -- and either a roach warren or a lot of speedlings and queens. Ideally, you want to stop at around 35-40 drones or about two base mineral saturation plus two gases. Your overlord scout should clue you into the right static defense: against stargate and dark templar, make spores; against everything else, make spines. If you cannot find out for sure, just place both a spine and a spore at the top of your natural ramp and make sure you're checking for movement of the Protoss army out on the map with lings. Naturally, this sort of play has been phased out for quite a while, but it's still important to be able to identify and react to it properly.
Identifying Your Opponent's Tech Path
Assuming your opponent doesn't do a hyper aggressive build, you should move into the next phase of the game: figuring out where your opponent is steering his mid game. When your initial lings arrive at your opponent's natural, you can often get a good idea of what your opponent's tech path is. A FFE wall will always look the same -- gateway, forge, cyber core, cannon, and some pylons -- but a gateway FE has a few variations that should be taken into account. The primary building permutations are:
Four gates, indicating heavy warp gate pressure (6:30-7:30)
Three gates, indicating early warp gate pressure (6:30-7:30) usually in the form of zealots
Two gates + forge, usually indicating later pressure (9:00+)
Forge + early stargate, typically indicating an overall macro stance (10:00+)
As you can see, each particular configuration results in a fairly specific set of timings and pressure, with four gates being the most aggressive Protoss can be to an early stargate and a forge, marking a fairly passive Protoss. After scouting the front of the Protoss's base and getting an understanding of his building configuration, your next steps are to check up on the forge and cyber core with occasional ling pokes, spot the natural geysers with an overlord, and sacrifice an overlord or two later on to confirm the tech and gateway count. The following section contains a more detailed approach to each permutation.
Versus Forge Fast Expand
Against FFE, you will encounter a standard wall containing a forge, gateway, cyber core, a cannon, and some pylons, all of which should be down by ~6:00. From this point on, you need to poke with lings occasionally to check if the forge or cyber core are being chronoboosted. Chronoboost on the cyber core denotes a warp gate rush that hits around 7:45-8:30, and chronoboost on the forge is typically used in sync with fast warpgate pressure. If there's no chronoboost on these two buildings, it's likely all being used on probes and/or tech buildings. This poke can also be used to reveal your opponent's unit composition and possible tech units.
The natural geysers are also very significant in revealing your opponent's plans. Place an overlord (usually your initial overlord) on an abuseable ledge or in dead space in sight of at least one of the natural geysers. “Fast” natural geysers typically go down at 6:00-6:30 and mean no pressure is coming until 9:30 or later. If the natural geysers do not go down by 7:00, the Protoss has cut probes and spent some extra money on gateways and is planning an attack around 8:30-9:30. To combat this, make sure you have a roach warren and proper static defense at your third started by 7:00.
Using an overlord to spot the natural geysers is vital in ZvP scouting
The final piece of the scouting puzzle is sacrificing an overlord at 7:00-7:30 to confirm tech and count gateways. It's possible to make enough deductions entirely based on chronoboost usage and gas timings to defend any pressure comfortably, but this overlord scout allows you to check for any tech you're unsure about such as DTs, blink, or robo play, as well as give you a better idea of the gateway count. A follow-up scout with an overseer at lair tech (around 8:00) will allow you to get confirmation on your opponent's tech and gateway count. The number is usually one to four, but higher numbers correlate with two base all-ins. A conspicuous lack of gateways generally indicates a very early third, which should be spotted by a ling. However, it can also mean proxied tech or gateways.
Naturally, unless you scout chronoboost on the forge or cyber core, you should be droning up super hard between 6:00-9:00. Against FFE, you typically skip an early gas and get it later (one gas at 5:00 or double gas at 6:00) to ensure that you can keep up in economy with the Protoss by 10:00.
Versus Gateway Expand
Against gateway expansion, your first priority is finding out if you're going to be facing heavy warpgate pressure very early or whether you'll be dealing with a more gradual approach to aggression. When your opponent ends up with an early forge in his natural wall, you can feel safe in knowing that heavy warpgate aggression will not be coming your way until after about 8:00, though there are still a few pokes with sentries around 6:30-7:00 (known as “the NonY build”) that you need to be aware of and respond to with ten to fourteen lings and a few queens. With this configuration, Protoss has invested into early tech and simply cannot have the money to add additional gateways and commit to an attack at the same time as teching. However, this sets up stronger mid games and makes two base attacks much scarier.
If you scout a total of three to four gateways, it's likely your opponent is going for some sort of warpgate pressure, usually in the form of zealots. The primary purpose of these builds is for the Protoss player to do some sort of damage at your third base and/or force out a lot of units while they get to two base saturation and a fairly equal economy. Ideally, the best way to handle fast warp gate pressure is to have excellent vision coverage with overlords and zerglings and build around twelve zerglings at 6:00 to deny any proxy pylons from going down. If the pylon does go down, speed, often times, will have just finished and you can make ~30 lings to defend. Against more aggressive variants such as the Sangate, you'll need emergency roaches in order to hold off the attack. Roaches are also needed if you missed the pylon and were unprepared for the aggression. In order to deal with the Sangate, just make a roach warren between 5:30-6:00, as soon as possible, and go up to two gases (putting drones back on to gas if you went early speed).
Roach/queen and good creep spread is the secret to success
Follow-ups include checking the main pathways on the map and using lings to spot for a potential third base while also spotting the front of the Protoss's natural with a ling. A poke with lings as well as an overlord scout into the main at around 6:00-6:30 will help you spot your opponent's tech. Assuming you don't get a full scout of what your opponent is doing, you can still generally confirm where gas has been spent. If there are about three to four sentries at the front, you can assume small poking pressure or the Protoss is preparing to take a fast third, whereas no scouted tech or gas-heavy units often means DTs, hidden stargate (either pooled phoenixes or an oracle), or some kind of immortal all-in. If your opponent is doing warpgate pressure talked about above, this scout timing is crucial to find out what kind of follow-up your opponent is planning on doing.
Again, the natural geysers are important to watch as they will give you a good understanding as to what your opponent's level of aggression is. If there are no natural gases by 7:00 and your opponent isn't doing a warpgate pressure, it's fair to assume some sort of two base all-in. No gas means extra minerals, which are usually spent on seven to eight gateways total.
Identifying Two Base All-ins
After identifying and deflecting any early pressure, the next step is to identify whether your opponent is playing for a third base or planning some kind of two base aggression. If you haven't already identified your opponent's tech path, you need to constantly be spotting the third base locations and poking around with lings in order to get a better understanding of what's coming. If you are unable to identify your opponent's gas usage and there is a conspicuous lack of sentries, build blind spores and a roach warren around 7:00 (8:00 for FFE). A follow-up scout with an overseer at lair tech (~8:00) will allow you to get confirmation on your opponent's tech and gateway count. If you have identified your opponent's tech path, then it's simply a matter of defending any initial pressure. During this time, the Protoss can be setting up for a two base attack or an early third base.
As a general rule, Protoss timings are based on their gas usage. The three major groupings of these all-ins are early two base all-ins, tech-based all-ins, and delayed all-ins. Early two base all-ins typically hit sooner with leaner tech and usually only one to two gases while tech-based all-ins are typically characterized by some kind of Protoss tech, be it stargate tech, blink, DTs, or immortals. Delayed all-ins are timings associated with more powerful tech such as archons, immortals, void rays, or even colossi. Sometimes delayed all-ins can also be based around a phoenix or oracle opening into a two base all-in, and sometimes even occur as a quick three base macro attack.
Early Two Base All-ins
Early all-ins typically hit between 8:00-9:30 and rely heavily on lots of gateway units with minimal amounts of tech. If you don't see any natural gases by 7:00, this is an indication that either the Protoss is taking a very fast third base or gearing up for a two base all-in. During this time period, Zerg wants to keep a constant eye on the front of the Protoss base to catch exactly when the Protoss moves out as well as keep a ling or overlord spotting the potential third of the Protoss.
Example:
7-gate all-in (HuK YOLO) DT HuK YOLO Phoenix 4-gate Two base blink all-in Warp prism all-in Oracle 7-gate
Response:
Cut @45 drones (2.5 base mineral saturation + 3 gases) 7:00 roach warren Start making units @~7:30 Spores or spines + queens
Unless you are doing a two base tech build, you cannot defend with any type of lair tech and have to rely on primarily roach/ling in order to hold these attacks. To defend against these types of all-ins, it's important to cut drones at around 45 (two and a half bases of mineral saturation plus three gases) and begin roach/ling production to hold the pressure. Against all-ins that include phoenixes, oracles, or void rays, it's very important to pull queens and a spore to defend; behind this, make sure you remake your queens and keep up your injects. Against ground-based attacks, two spine crawlers at the third can help hold the push quite well.
Tech-based All-ins
Tech-based all-ins are a commitment of the Protoss to tech earlier in the game. However, instead of taking a third base and continuing to play a standard “macro” game, they will add additional gateways and focus on a dedicated two base pressure. Generally, you want to identify the Protoss tech by 6:30-8:30 and deal with whatever tech pressure might come your way early (DTs, warp prisms, oracles, or phoenixes) and react with spores or extra units. After this, the main thing to look for is whether the Protoss takes a third base. For this reason, it is vital to keep constant vision around the potential third bases for Protoss with lings or overlords around 8:00-10:00. If there is no third during that time period, you can assume a two base all-in is coming your way. Again, vision of the front is paramount for gauging when an attack is coming versus whether a third base is going down. The timing window for these builds is usually 9:30-10:30.
Examples:
Soultrain Void Ray/6-gate all-in
Response:
Cut @60-65 drones (3 full base mineral saturation + 4-6 gases) 7:00 roach warren Start making units @~9:30 Spores or spines + queens
Defending against these attacks requires Zerg to cut drones at about 60-65 drones (three full bases of mineral saturation plus four to six gases, depending on your tech choice) and switch to constant unit production. A fourth macro hatch is essential for defending these attacks. There are a few different unit combinations, but the most common is roach/ling. However, roach/hydra and hydra/ling are also viable in these situations and depending on the type of all-in.
The first lings and roaches can be used to attack the sentries as they're traveling across the map and force out forcefields, they can counterattack and/or set up a position to flank, or they can linger behind and slowly pick off pylons as the Protoss moves forward. All of these tactics significantly reduce the efficacy of these types of all-ins and strongly reduce the power of the push. Similarly, pulling a few queens and building a few spores or spines depending on the pressure will greatly improve the defense of the attack.
Delayed Two Base and Three Base All-ins
Protoss can also throw out delayed two base timings as well as three base macro attacks that Zerg players must be aware of. The primary culprits behind these builds are the 2-2-2 (the Magic Johnson), phoenix/oracle openings into two base all-ins, and gateway-heavy three base aggression. The timings for these builds are generally after 10:00.
Cut @66 drones (full 3-base saturation with all 6 geysers) 7:00 roach warren *9:30 spire (for colossus-based all-ins) Start making units @~9:30-10:00
Some all-ins are delayed two base all-ins. The 2-2-2 is a prime example of this. After scouting robo tech, no third base by 10:00, and no move out by 10:00, it's safe to assume your opponent is going for a 2-2-2, and either an excellent flank or corruptors are necessary to hold the push. Other examples include any kind of build that opens with a stargate to pressure with either oracles or phoenixes and then follows up with a two base all-in. Phoenixes into soultrain is one of the most common versions of these all-ins. To scout out these pushes, it's important to get some ling presence out on the map to spot for the third base and any potential moveouts since your overlords will be pushed back by the phoenixes. Again, if there's no third base by 10:00, you can expect some kind of pressure to be heading your way. The safest way to defend against these types of pressures is to place down a spire at around 9:30 if you see no third base and no army move out from the Protoss. Behind this, take all six geysers and continuously make units (roach/hydra is most preferable). Against colossus-based all-ins, a swell of about ten to twelve corruptors at spire completion will easily take down the colossus before they do any major damage. However, this is a very tight timing, so buying time with counterattacks and threatening surrounds is necessary to get the corruptors out in time to defend.
A couple of special cases include third bases that make the Protoss appear playing a long-term, macro game, but are actually just using the extra mineral income to fuel an incredibly powerful three base attack. These types of all-ins are generally centered around gateway units with upgrades, such as 3-base blink, immortal/archon/chargelot, or even just massive three base gateway attacks. Defending against these is as simple as not being too greedy with your gas and taking a more delayed fourth base. Many Zerg players, when they see a third base from the Protoss, let out a sigh of relief and immediately take a fourth base and start getting every upgrade imaginable. Versus these particular pressures, however, you have to be cognizant about spending your money correctly; either take a fourth hatch as a macro hatch or build a round of units for safety before expanding to the fourth. If you are simply aware of what's going on and scouting with your overseer for the gateway counts and tech, you'll be able to deflect these pressures without too much of a problem.
Special Cases and Early All-Ins
Some all-ins hit at slightly different timings than indicated above and are considered “special cases”. Don't fret, while these are outliers in terms of what you need to scout, they still have obvious tells that can allow you to identify the pressure and respond accordingly.
Examples:
MANtrain Fast blink all-in
Response:
Cut @40 drones (2 base mineral saturation + 2 geysers) Emergency roach warren (~6:15) Start making roaches @~7:00 Emergency spine crawler(s)
Gas counts can generally tell you a lot about the build. The MANtrain is marked by very little gas and the presence of a robo, which can be easily scouted by an overlord. Perhaps the most defined feature is the lack of a sentry due to all gas being spent on +1 attack and immortals all off of one gas. To defend from these all-ins, you need to drop emergency roach warren immediately, halt drone production, and start roaches as soon as possible. Generally, this all happens around 6:00-6:30 with your overlord scout. To defend, you'll want about 40 drones and two gases. A spine crawler or two also helps greatly with the defense of this particular all-in.
Other pressures, like the fast blink all-in rely more on your ability to multi-task and scout well while defending pressure. If you are dealing with early warp gate pressure and your 6:00 overlord scout happens to find a twilight council being chronoboosted, you know you need to cut drones, make an emergency roach warren, and start nonstop roach/ling production. Again, you want about 40 drones and two gases; a spine crawler or two is also necessary in the defense of this timing.
Drawing Conclusions
In summary, Protoss pressure can be divided into major time frames:
4:00-6:00 Early gateway pressure (zealot/stalker/MSC pokes)
6:00-7:30 Warpgate pressure (either dedicated or light)
8:00-9:30 Early all-ins
9:30-10:30 Standard two base all-ins
10:30+ Delayed two base all-ins and three base all-ins
By dividing up the pressures into these time periods, we can accurately devise responses based on the timing moreso than the composition. For instance, against any all-in hitting at 8:30, no matter what all-in it is, we will need to cut drones at around 45, get an emergency roach warren, and make nonstop units. The only real difference is whether to place spores or spines, depending on the pressure at hand. Two base all-ins that hit at 10:00 have virtually the same response: cut drones, make roaches, and place either spores or spines to help defend. The only difference is time.
With proper early game scouting between overlords and lings, we can help prevent the threat of an early warp gate attack while also setting up our scouting for later in the game. With ling pokes, gas spotting, and the standard overlord sacrifice at 6:00-7:00 (7:00-8:00 for FFE), we can usually get all the information we need on the Protoss tech and respond appropriately.
Hopefully you now have a better understanding of the early parts of the game, know what to look for, how to move your early units intelligently, and feel a lot more comfortable dealing with Protoss pressure. Knowing how to scout out and deflect these pressures is as simple as keeping an eye on the gas count, scouting the tech, and reacting appropriately at the right time. If you can simply identify a Protoss pressure and be familiar with the time that it hits, all you need to do is figure out the exact point that you need to cut drones and produce units. EZPZ. Good luck in your laddering!
Presumably what your games will look like from now on
Q: How do I know where common proxy spots are on maps? Do I just scout everything on the map?
A: You want to use lings to comb through your natural and third base mineral lines and then just spot for general pathways on the map. Typically, your third and fourth overlords are used specifically to spot dead spots on the map that are “out of the way” or where your lings wouldn't always check. Again, the most important thing is just to get the proxy pylon off of your side of the map; you don't need to check everything on the map, just be aware of your half of the map.
Q: What if I can't scout the Protoss tech? Whenever I try to scout, my overlord is killed before I really see anything significant.
A: If you don't have any information on your opponent's tech and/or gate count through ling pokes and overlord scouting, the best response is blind spores around 6:30-7:00 coupled with roaches.
Q: How do you know when to cut drones? You say stuff like “cut at 60 drones”, but can't that happen at different times during a game?
A: Assuming good macro, you should always have 60 drones around similar times. If you ever cut drones to stave off early pressure such as zealot/stalker/MSC pokes, the Protoss is equally behind, so the timing is still relative. There are perhaps more exact timings to go by, but you definitely need a certain amount of drones to support your response to pressure, so that's why I refer to timings in terms of drones.
Q: What about doing two base plays? I normally just open with two base tech to just avoid dealing with these types of pressure.
A: Two base plays are viable, but definitely far from optimal. Anytime you do a two base pressure as Zerg, it really has to deal some significant damage or you can end up losing the game to more passive Protoss players. In general, for players learning and looking to get good at Zerg, I highly recommend doing 3-hatch builds, as it forces you to macro, scout, and respond well to your opponent.
Q: I still can't tell if the Protoss is going to take a third base or all-in me, especially if he walks over and kills my lings/overlord. What should I do?
A: In general, you should have a few lings out on the map to spot for a moveout/third base. If you lose these, be quick to replace them to double-check. Also, make sure to actively count gateways with your 6:00-7:00 overlord scout and overseer scout. If the number is higher than four at any point between 6:30-10:00, this is definitely a sign of aggression.
Q: Can I defend with hydra/ling instead of roach/ling?
A: Only for two base all-ins hitting 10:00 and later (assuming you opened 3-hatch). Before this timing, you simply can't get enough hydras out in time to defend. For hydra builds, you typically go all the way up to 66 drones, full 3-base saturation, in order to afford the gas-heavy hydras. On smaller maps, hydra/ling also relies heavily on delaying the push as long as possible with a small pack of lings, in which case a more defensive roach play might be more reliable.
Q: What if the Protoss goes nexus first into gateway? Do I treat it like a FFE or a gateway expand?
A: Kind of both actually. For the most part, you want to treat it like a FFE by going gasless, playing greedy, and getting some creep spread done. However, you have to keep in mind that some brutal warp gate timings exist and can hit up to as early as 7:45 with nonstop chronoboost on warp gate. Otherwise, it can be treated essentially as a greedier form of FFE with slightly stronger two base and three base timings.
... though there are still a few pokes with sentries around 6:30-7:00 (known as “the NonY build”) that you need to be aware of and respond to with ten to fourteen lings and a few queens.
You don't even leave your natural until 7:00 with NonY's build so what you're referencing is..? It's very bad advice anyway because if Zerg makes 10-14 Lings in response to that pressure then I will quite happily kill their third for free 100% of the time...
Here is a video of NonY using his recall strategy vs. IdrA. The timing is more Sentry heavy than he currently uses (and so he doesn't have the DPS needed to kill the Hatchery), but it moves out at the same time...
EDIT:
Teoita edited this and didn't point this obvious error out? I am embarrassed for them.
It's referencing the time they leave their natural, at which point the sentries are then considered "pressure". You don't prepare for things when they hit your base unless you want to lose (or you're soO, but that's besides the point).
If the build pushes out with the first warpin, it's closer to 6:30; with the second warpin, it's more like 7:00 (maybe a tad bit later).
Also, I'm not fully sure of what you're advocating as far as the Zerg response goes. 14 lings plus two queens should be enough to force something like that back without having to overcommit. If the Protoss decides to commit to the pressure, then you can easily just make a few more lings to clean up the pressure.
... though there are still a few pokes with sentries around 6:30-7:00 (known as “the NonY build”) that you need to be aware of and respond to with ten to fourteen lings and a few queens.
You don't even leave your natural until 7:00 with NonY's build so what you're referencing is..? It's very bad advice anyway because if Zerg makes 10-14 Lings in response to that pressure then I will quite happily kill their third for free 100% of the time...
Here is a video of NonY using his recall strategy vs. IdrA. The timing is more Sentry heavy than he currently uses (and so he doesn't have the DPS needed to kill the Hatchery), but it moves out at the same time...
It's referencing the time they leave their natural, at which point the sentries are then considered "pressure". You don't prepare for things when they hit your base unless you want to lose (or you're soO, but that's besides the point).
If the build pushes out with the first warpin, it's closer to 6:30; with the second warpin, it's more like 7:00 (maybe a tad bit later).
Also, I'm not fully sure of what you're advocating as far as the Zerg response goes. 14 lings plus two queens should be enough to force something like that back without having to overcommit. If the Protoss decides to commit to the pressure, then you can easily just make a few more lings to clean up the pressure.
Warpgates aren't even ready until 7:00 with NonY's build.
Then you're using an outdated build because warpgate starts on time and finishes around 6:30 with no chronoboosts in modern builds. My entire PvZ was based around this pressure.
Q: What if I can't scout the Protoss tech? Whenever I try to scout, my overlord is killed before I really see anything significant.
A: If you don't have any information on your opponent's tech and/or gate count through ling pokes and overlord scouting, the best response is blind spores around 6:30-7:00 coupled with roaches.
This is basically saying "Protoss should only let you scout if he's really dumb, so you can't know for sure what he's doing anyway, especially because of proxy stuff, so build spores and roaches"?
Q: What if I can't scout the Protoss tech? Whenever I try to scout, my overlord is killed before I really see anything significant.
A: If you don't have any information on your opponent's tech and/or gate count through ling pokes and overlord scouting, the best response is blind spores around 6:30-7:00 coupled with roaches.
This is basically saying "Protoss should only let you scout if he's really dumb, so you can't know for sure what he's doing anyway, especially because of proxy stuff, so build spores and roaches"?
Then scout/sacrifice with 2 overlords at the same time. You WILL scout what he has.
On September 18 2014 09:53 Mahtasooma wrote: Can this be broken down into
Q: What if I can't scout the Protoss tech? Whenever I try to scout, my overlord is killed before I really see anything significant.
A: If you don't have any information on your opponent's tech and/or gate count through ling pokes and overlord scouting, the best response is blind spores around 6:30-7:00 coupled with roaches.
This is basically saying "Protoss should only let you scout if he's really dumb, so you can't know for sure what he's doing anyway, especially because of proxy stuff, so build spores and roaches"?
Then scout/sacrifice with 2 overlords at the same time. You WILL scout what he has.
This means that you can never take information for granted. You CANNOT ALWAYS scout what the Protoss has. There are definitely ways to make this easier, but if you don't find out what's up, just start the spores and the roach warren just in case; you can always cancel the spores or not make roaches if you scout otherwise.
SC2 is a game of imperfect information. You can't be 100% likely to scout everything in the Protoss's main and natural as well as spot all proxies, etc. You just can't always know for sure, so you have to make the best educated guess possible, and tweaking your build to be a little extra safe is not necessarily a bad thing (unless you're aiming for a very specific mid game timing).
On September 18 2014 09:24 Musicus wrote: I will accept this as an apology for The Book of Protoss Bullshit and read this guide with enthusiasm. Thanks .
↑ Nailed, after the Book i started noticing more Toss Bullshit than usual, now it's time to recover some of these sweet ladder points, even when i know how to scout well and such it is always nice to have some hard numbers for this kind of thing.
Thank you so much for making this guide. It is always great when there are people who still contribute to the Starcraft community. This is why I love Starcraft so much.
On September 18 2014 15:19 FFW_Rude wrote: This is really nice.
Question but. What is a SANGate ?
A particularly bullshit version of 4gate zealot pressure that hits at like 6:30 with 5 zealots and a msc
So when it says : "if you scout a SANgate" how is that different than a 4gate ? How do i differenciate it ? Just the number of warpin ? It's just for my information, because no build makes sense in gold a 4gate can hit you at a 11minute timing in my league / division at the moment :p
12gate instead of 13gate, extremely delayed second gas, serious commitment to warping in a LOT of zealots (seriously san sometimes makes like 20+ of them)
Awesome guide, as you said in the intro ZvP scouting is really challenging, and knowing how to react is really crucial. I'm enjoying reading it, and I'm learning a lot. Thanks for the guide!
On September 18 2014 17:38 Teoita wrote: 12gate instead of 13gate, extremely delayed second gas, serious commitment to warping in a LOT of zealots (seriously san sometimes makes like 20+ of them)
At my level i can't make the gateway timing. What would be a "delayed gas timing" ?. If i don't see a second gaz and more than one gate i assume 4gate or something along the line. Immo, 3gate or something like that.
So if i understood delayed gaz = - "No expo, more than one gate, no sentry" ?
Thanks for your answer
On September 18 2014 19:42 SonGoku wrote: Still no terran shit out there
On September 18 2014 17:54 Skynx wrote: Very well written, can we expect a Terran guide next time?
What do you have in mind? Terran play hasn't really changed, we have 4M tvz, same tvp since wings, I guess the only thing would be the different aggressive openings for tvt, and Vader already has a post with some of those builds
On September 18 2014 17:54 Skynx wrote: Very well written, can we expect a Terran guide next time?
What do you have in mind? Terran play hasn't really changed, we have 4M tvz, same tvp since wings, I guess the only thing would be the different aggressive openings for tvt, and Vader already has a post with some of those builds
This guide also brings nothing really new to the table as far as I have read (nor aims at that). It's a compendium for ladder players how to identify and defend certain allins that have been created in WoL or at the beginning of HotS. They surely could do something like that too for TvP. Not sure if they have the manpower for TvZ though.
I really hate to scout for gas. I mean, if we have to count the gas being spent aswell, that means there's a LOT of shits to do as zerg while following your build order... For example the 4 initials lings scout is really really APM intensive. And it doesn't even guarantee you that you'll find that sneaking probe.
On September 18 2014 17:38 Teoita wrote: 12gate instead of 13gate, extremely delayed second gas, serious commitment to warping in a LOT of zealots (seriously san sometimes makes like 20+ of them)
At my level i can't make the gateway timing. What would be a "delayed gas timing" ?. If i don't see a second gaz and more than one gate i assume 4gate or something along the line. Immo, 3gate or something like that.
So if i understood delayed gaz = - "No expo, more than one gate, no sentry" ?
Thanks for your answer
Tech builds (as well as less aggressive 3gates) get their second gas shortly after the nexus; the sangate doesn't start extra assimilators until the pressure is completely over. Almost every build has an expansion and (at least) one sentry though, so neither of those is a good tell that the protoss will be playing passively.
On September 19 2014 00:42 RaiZ wrote: I really hate to scout for gas. I mean, if we have to count the gas being spent aswell, that means there's a LOT of shits to do as zerg while following your build order... For example the 4 initials lings scout is really really APM intensive. And it doesn't even guarantee you that you'll find that sneaking probe.
what else do you have to spend apm on that early in the game? besides starting to spread creep, injecting larvae, spreading overlords, droning, grabbing your 3rd, and figuring out if you need to respond to any protoss bullshit which is partly what using those lings is for
not to be rude but there isn't that much going on in the early game that you can't do a bunch of shift click A-moves and look at the minimap a bit.
no sentry = dt so often it isn't even funny. but then he's taken gas 3/4 most of the time
On September 18 2014 17:38 Teoita wrote: 12gate instead of 13gate, extremely delayed second gas, serious commitment to warping in a LOT of zealots (seriously san sometimes makes like 20+ of them)
At my level i can't make the gateway timing. What would be a "delayed gas timing" ?. If i don't see a second gaz and more than one gate i assume 4gate or something along the line. Immo, 3gate or something like that.
So if i understood delayed gaz = - "No expo, more than one gate, no sentry" ?
Thanks for your answer
Tech builds (as well as less aggressive 3gates) get their second gas shortly after the nexus; the sangate doesn't start extra assimilators until the pressure is completely over. Almost every build has an expansion and (at least) one sentry though, so neither of those is a good tell that the protoss will be playing passively.
I'll add to this, if its no expansion, just follow what the vs. one base section recommends, and don't get supply blocked. The only reason you should really lose to one base pressure in gold especially is by not having enough stuff, or letting him ff your main ramp with your whole army up there.
Basically, I would recommend to ANYONE in gold, regardless of race, try to perfect the first 10 minutes of your game as much as possible. This alone will get you to plat and diamond.
Against 1 base play, if you are macroing well not supply blocking, all you need to do decision making wise as Z in ZvP is follow what SC2John recommends here.
If you see a natural and only one gas, there is either a sangate, or an immortal mantrain coming. Both of which can be scouted pretty easily as SC2John points out since they wont have much anti air and the main difference between the two at an early scout timing is whether the core is being chronoed or not, or even just the existence of a robo if you manage to see it seals the deal for MANtrain. Though the MANtrain is significantly weaker with the latest changes to timewarp reducing the time it is cast for substantially.
On September 19 2014 00:42 RaiZ wrote: I really hate to scout for gas. I mean, if we have to count the gas being spent aswell, that means there's a LOT of shits to do as zerg while following your build order... For example the 4 initials lings scout is really really APM intensive. And it doesn't even guarantee you that you'll find that sneaking probe.
what else do you have to spend apm on that early in the game? besides starting to spread creep, injecting larvae, spreading overlords, droning, grabbing your 3rd, and figuring out if you need to respond to any protoss bullshit which is partly what using those lings is for
not to be rude but there isn't that much going on in the early game that you can't do a bunch of shift click A-moves and look at the minimap a bit.
Compare that to your probe playing hide and seek while you can do your build order without having to do anything. That's right, that alone is why I blame protoss for. When you see so many 100 apm toss winning in master, you can start wondering if they're really trying hard to hide their fucking probe. Just played a game and even though I've pupt much effort in scouting that probe it still went unarmed and put a pylon right in front on my third. Really, need I say more ? Fuck that game seriously. I'll probably get temp ban but whatever i'm so tired of this shit.
On September 18 2014 17:54 Skynx wrote: Very well written, can we expect a Terran guide next time?
What do you have in mind? Terran play hasn't really changed, we have 4M tvz, same tvp since wings, I guess the only thing would be the different aggressive openings for tvt, and Vader already has a post with some of those builds
This guide also brings nothing really new to the table as far as I have read (nor aims at that). It's a compendium for ladder players how to identify and defend certain allins that have been created in WoL or at the beginning of HotS. They surely could do something like that too for TvP. Not sure if they have the manpower for TvZ though.
That picture was actually taken well into the game after the Protoss had failed two attacks and was trying to attempt a last ditch offense. It was meant to be a little bit ridiculous :p.
On September 19 2014 00:42 RaiZ wrote: I really hate to scout for gas. I mean, if we have to count the gas being spent aswell, that means there's a LOT of shits to do as zerg while following your build order... For example the 4 initials lings scout is really really APM intensive. And it doesn't even guarantee you that you'll find that sneaking probe.
Scouting for gas is as simple as placing an overlord next to the gas geysers and occasionally checking your minimap. It's literally 0 actions to check for gas. As far as scouting with the initial lings, yeah, it can be a little bit daunting. If you don't have the APM do it well, that's fine, just try to make sure you're taking the watchtowers and watching the front of your opponent's base.
As far as all the Sangate questions, Teo and Zero have pretty much narrowed it down. It's essentially a very delayed 2nd gas (sometimes Protoss players will make the gas and not mine from it, so you need to watch out for that too) and a zealot/probe moveout at 4:30. If you're really unsure if it's a sangate or a normal 3-gate or 4-gate, you can always build the roach warren as a safety precaution, BUT DO NOT MAKE ROACHES UNLESS YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO.
Another easy way to scout out Sangate is to drone scout on 2-player maps and note the time that the gateway goes down; however, this isn't always reliable information and it's not easy to get on 4-player maps, so just get used to scouting it the old fashioned way.
On September 18 2014 17:38 Teoita wrote: 12gate instead of 13gate, extremely delayed second gas, serious commitment to warping in a LOT of zealots (seriously san sometimes makes like 20+ of them)
At my level i can't make the gateway timing. What would be a "delayed gas timing" ?. If i don't see a second gaz and more than one gate i assume 4gate or something along the line. Immo, 3gate or something like that.
So if i understood delayed gaz = - "No expo, more than one gate, no sentry" ?
Thanks for your answer
Tech builds (as well as less aggressive 3gates) get their second gas shortly after the nexus; the sangate doesn't start extra assimilators until the pressure is completely over. Almost every build has an expansion and (at least) one sentry though, so neither of those is a good tell that the protoss will be playing passively.
That's really more clear that way Thank you.
Upped plat last night so i might going to start seeing some of those builds. A lots of build in Gold (and in plat sometimes) are just impossible to read because there's no build behind this. Just people trying things and having fun (which isn't a bad thing). Stuff like Dual gaz into warpgates into... no msc and mass zealots
wow the last map where zerg does flank attack <3 but very rare in HotS but zerg did wrong here, inverted is much better. roaches to zealots and lings to stalkers.
On September 18 2014 17:38 Teoita wrote: 12gate instead of 13gate, extremely delayed second gas, serious commitment to warping in a LOT of zealots (seriously san sometimes makes like 20+ of them)
At my level i can't make the gateway timing. What would be a "delayed gas timing" ?. If i don't see a second gaz and more than one gate i assume 4gate or something along the line. Immo, 3gate or something like that.
So if i understood delayed gaz = - "No expo, more than one gate, no sentry" ?
Thanks for your answer
Tech builds (as well as less aggressive 3gates) get their second gas shortly after the nexus; the sangate doesn't start extra assimilators until the pressure is completely over. Almost every build has an expansion and (at least) one sentry though, so neither of those is a good tell that the protoss will be playing passively.
That's really more clear that way Thank you.
Upped plat last night so i might going to start seeing some of those builds. A lots of build in Gold (and in plat sometimes) are just impossible to read because there's no build behind this. Just people trying things and having fun (which isn't a bad thing). Stuff like Dual gaz into warpgates into... no msc and mass zealots
Just keep that Day9 quote in mind. If they do an un-optimized build and you prepare for the optimized version, then you'll just beat it anyway because it's bad.
On September 20 2014 06:22 Dingodile wrote: wow the last map where zerg does flank attack <3 but very rare in HotS but zerg did wrong here, inverted is much better. roaches to zealots and lings to stalkers.
That's actually from Symbol vs Billowy (in the VoDs section) in which Billowy does a super late soultrain into failblog and then attempts to soultrain again in desperation. That engagement happens when Symbol has all of the map control and burrowed roaches, so that's why the lings are stuck in the back on the zealots while the roaches are on top of everything else. To be honest, Symbol probably could have just won that engagement with a direct enagement without the flank and still won; Billowy was that far behind at that point.
BUT THE POINT IS: hopefully, you'll be so good at scouting that you'll just completely crush the Protoss army like that .
any tips on a high sentry based 2 base "all-in" from protoss (on map with no overlord deadspace that is). always get surprised when they get their army somewhere near my 3th and forcefield my army on the wrong side of the ramp (2nd-3th base). feels so saddening to see your army trying to walk up against those invisible walls watching your 3th base/nat being destroyed, just to see their army being recalled when you can finally get in (which is after a few minutes). how to correctly scout this aggresion and what is the proper response to it?
On September 20 2014 17:55 Pandahunterz wrote: any tips on a high sentry based 2 base "all-in" from protoss (on map with no overlord deadspace that is). always get surprised when they get their army somewhere near my 3th and forcefield my army on the wrong side of the ramp (2nd-3th base). feels so saddening to see your army trying to walk up against those invisible walls watching your 3th base/nat being destroyed, just to see their army being recalled when you can finally get in (which is after a few minutes). how to correctly scout this aggresion and what is the proper response to it?
It sounds like mostly what you need it is spotting overlords or lings. Always always always have lings outside his base to see his move out times, have an overlord near his 3rd to check for that, and take watch towers. If you do those things you'll know when something is up, and you'll know when he's out on the map.
I'd like a few tips on situations where I scout that the Protoss is being way too greedy and should/could attack to punish him! Either cancel a third or even break a natural wall when it's weak. When I scout a third nexus at 6 minutes can I assume he can't have enough ground units to defend it vs speedlings? Sometimes I watch my replays and realise that my opponent build one zealot and nothing else before building air units to harass while taking a third at the same time and I could've broken his natural most likely. Sometimes I want to take the aggression to them, but not blindly of course.
On September 22 2014 20:36 Musicus wrote: I'd like a few tips on situations where I scout that the Protoss is being way too greedy and should/could attack to punish him! Either cancel a third or even break a natural wall when it's weak. When I scout a third nexus at 6 minutes can I assume he can't have enough ground units to defend it vs speedlings? Sometimes I watch my replays and realise that my opponent build one zealot and nothing else before building air units to harass while taking a third at the same time and I could've broken his natural most likely. Sometimes I want to take the aggression to them, but not blindly of course.
It's honestly quite hard for Zerg to "reactively" break Protosses since you really do need the correct infrastructure to deal with certain things. However, what you CAN do is set up potential timings based on what time your zergling speed finishes to shut down a greedier Protoss if you need to. For instance, Life uses a plethora of ling timings that are aligned with zergling speed finishing; if the Protoss is playing more conservatively, he can just make drones instead.
You are never going to break a natural expansion unless your opponent is playing badly or there was some kind of early game shenanigans going on like a proxy hatch (Or Daedalus). In terms of cancelling the third, it's all about how you set up ling speed. For instance, against a FFE, if you go gasless triple hatch into double gas @6:00 -> lair -> zergling speed, your speed won't be finishing up until around 9:00, which means you cannot cancel a 7:00 3rd base. However, if you go triple hatch before pool into gas, zergling speed will finish right around 7:00, giving you ample opportunity to punish an opponent going for an ultra fast third.
If you're looking for more opportunities to deal with a greedier Protoss, try pushing your gas timings up a little bit to give you THE OPTION to flood lings. Obviously, you lose a bit of economy with this type of style, but it might lead you to some interesting and useful ideas. Mid game timings are a little more complicated but usually revolve around gas usage as well. In short: just try to give yourself as many options for aggression as possible by unlocking tech or economy at a certain time and then choosing between drones and units based on what you've scouted.
On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote: Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ?
The closest thing would be Blade55555's Second Overview of HotS Zerg, but that's quite a bit older. If there's enough interest (and us TL Strategy writers have time), we'll work on another guide for scouting in one of those two matchups .
At the moment, this felt like the most important one to release, as a large large large majority of questions in the Zerg Help Me Thread revolve around dealing with Protoss pressure (and beating mech, apparently).
On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote: Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ?
Not really. It would be interesting, but much less helpful, especially for ZvZ it comes down to two overlord checks and then "WHAT IS HE DOING WITH HIS LARVA THOUGH?????"
ZvT in a mini-guide is:
Scout with 1st OL - is he Marine or Reaper first? (affects further overlord placement, to make defensive lings or not) Does he take natural or tech on one base? (scout rax with first overlord ASAP, see if he places natural by 3:30-4 minutes)
Scout with 2nd OL - 3CC or tech on 2base? What kind of tech on 2 base? Is there more than 1 rax already? (timing is 5:30-6:30)
Scout with 3rd OL - is he bio or meching? How many factories does he have? If he started banshees is he continuing with a tech lab on the starport? (8:30)
Always have lings on watch towers and in front of his base so you know when he moves out
You can of course break down ZvP in such a basic way as well, but this sort of guide is way more important for PvZ when their timings require vastly different responses. ZvT is just "have baneling/queen!", and ZvZ is either "Ling bling queen!" or "Roaches!!"
On September 22 2014 20:36 Musicus wrote: I'd like a few tips on situations where I scout that the Protoss is being way too greedy and should/could attack to punish him! Either cancel a third or even break a natural wall when it's weak. When I scout a third nexus at 6 minutes can I assume he can't have enough ground units to defend it vs speedlings? Sometimes I watch my replays and realise that my opponent build one zealot and nothing else before building air units to harass while taking a third at the same time and I could've broken his natural most likely. Sometimes I want to take the aggression to them, but not blindly of course.
It's honestly quite hard for Zerg to "reactively" break Protosses since you really do need the correct infrastructure to deal with certain things. However, what you CAN do is set up potential timings based on what time your zergling speed finishes to shut down a greedier Protoss if you need to. For instance, Life uses a plethora of ling timings that are aligned with zergling speed finishing; if the Protoss is playing more conservatively, he can just make drones instead.
You are never going to break a natural expansion unless your opponent is playing badly or there was some kind of early game shenanigans going on like a proxy hatch (Or Daedalus). In terms of cancelling the third, it's all about how you set up ling speed. For instance, against a FFE, if you go gasless triple hatch into double gas @6:00 -> lair -> zergling speed, your speed won't be finishing up until around 9:00, which means you cannot cancel a 7:00 3rd base. However, if you go triple hatch before pool into gas, zergling speed will finish right around 7:00, giving you ample opportunity to punish an opponent going for an ultra fast third.
If you're looking for more opportunities to deal with a greedier Protoss, try pushing your gas timings up a little bit to give you THE OPTION to flood lings. Obviously, you lose a bit of economy with this type of style, but it might lead you to some interesting and useful ideas. Mid game timings are a little more complicated but usually revolve around gas usage as well. In short: just try to give yourself as many options for aggression as possible by unlocking tech or economy at a certain time and then choosing between drones and units based on what you've scouted.
On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote: Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ?
The closest thing would be Blade55555's Second Overview of HotS Zerg, but that's quite a bit older. If there's enough interest (and us TL Strategy writers have time), we'll work on another guide for scouting in one of those two matchups .
At the moment, this felt like the most important one to release, as a large large large majority of questions in the Zerg Help Me Thread revolve around dealing with Protoss pressure (and beating mech, apparently).
That isn't old! Jk yeah you guys need to get more guide motivated zergs like I was.
On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote: Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ?
The closest thing would be Blade55555's Second Overview of HotS Zerg, but that's quite a bit older. If there's enough interest (and us TL Strategy writers have time), we'll work on another guide for scouting in one of those two matchups .
At the moment, this felt like the most important one to release, as a large large large majority of questions in the Zerg Help Me Thread revolve around dealing with Protoss pressure (and beating mech, apparently).
That isn't old! Jk yeah you guys need to get more guide motivated zergs like I was.
On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote: Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ?
The closest thing would be Blade55555's Second Overview of HotS Zerg, but that's quite a bit older. If there's enough interest (and us TL Strategy writers have time), we'll work on another guide for scouting in one of those two matchups .
At the moment, this felt like the most important one to release, as a large large large majority of questions in the Zerg Help Me Thread revolve around dealing with Protoss pressure (and beating mech, apparently).
That isn't old! Jk yeah you guys need to get more guide motivated zergs like I was.
Scout with 1st OL - is he Marine or Reaper first? (affects further overlord placement, to make defensive lings or not) Does he take natural or tech on one base? (scout rax with first overlord ASAP, see if he places natural by 3:30-4 minutes)
Quick question about this, how do you do this safely without losing the Overlord when they build a Marine first? I'm always a little cautious with my first Overlord in ZvT, since I'm afraid of losing it. I'm in Gold league for reference, where the Reaper openings are less common.
Scout with 1st OL - is he Marine or Reaper first? (affects further overlord placement, to make defensive lings or not) Does he take natural or tech on one base? (scout rax with first overlord ASAP, see if he places natural by 3:30-4 minutes)
Quick question about this, how do you do this safely without losing the Overlord when they build a Marine first? I'm always a little cautious with my first Overlord in ZvT, since I'm afraid of losing it. I'm in Gold league for reference, where the Reaper openings are less common.
On most maps, there is a safe zone where the overlord can get to if a marine comes out first. For instance, on Overgrowth, you can float it to the natural ramp, and if a marine comes out, just float your overlord to the cliff next to the natural. He might take a little bit of damage, but the overlord SHOULD make it there alive.
Another small thing might be for you to get used to checking things very peripherally with your overlord. In other words, your overlord doesn't need to be right on top of the rax to figure out of it's a reaper or marine first. You can just as easily spot the natural ramp, and if you don't see a reaper after a certain timing (2:30-2:45 is about the time the reaper pops out), then you can just assume it was a marine opening (or maybe something with a fast factory, but that's REALLY uncommon).
On September 23 2014 05:13 Prevail wrote: Excellent read! Are there other guides like this as far as scouting for ZvT and ZvZ?
The closest thing would be Blade55555's Second Overview of HotS Zerg, but that's quite a bit older. If there's enough interest (and us TL Strategy writers have time), we'll work on another guide for scouting in one of those two matchups .
At the moment, this felt like the most important one to release, as a large large large majority of questions in the Zerg Help Me Thread revolve around dealing with Protoss pressure (and beating mech, apparently).
That isn't old! Jk yeah you guys need to get more guide motivated zergs like I was.
Get the fuck back to TL strat we miss you.
I am in there I just kinda forget about the chat xD.
Question about responding to the SanGate (or really any kind of 4 gate zealot/MsC pressure on my 3rd base around 6:00-6:30):
The guide says to place a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 to have emergency roaches out to defend the zealot warpins. However, when I sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6:00, it usually isn't until 6:15-6:30 that I am able to confirm whether the Protoss is on 1 or 2 gas. If it is 6:15 when I confirm that he is only on 1 gas and has 4 gates, and I throw down my roach warren IMMEDIATELY, it won't be done until 7:00, and my roaches won't hatch until 7:30. By that time, my 3rd will already be gone. Obviously, the best reaction is to deny the proxy pylon from going down in the first place, in which case I won't even need to make roaches at all, but that is not always possible.
So when exactly would it be wise to build a 5:30 roach warren, and what scouting info would you have at that point that would lead to such a decision? (Only thing I can think of is seeing 3 gateways at the wall, but that is pretty rare. It's usually 2 gates at the wall and the 4th is pretty well hidden in the main somewhere.)
On September 28 2014 01:43 Frankie Teardrop wrote: Question about responding to the SanGate (or really any kind of 4 gate zealot/MsC pressure on my 3rd base around 6:00-6:30):
The guide says to place a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 to have emergency roaches out to defend the zealot warpins. However, when I sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6:00, it usually isn't until 6:15-6:30 that I am able to confirm whether the Protoss is on 1 or 2 gas. If it is 6:15 when I confirm that he is only on 1 gas and has 4 gates, and I throw down my roach warren IMMEDIATELY, it won't be done until 7:00, and my roaches won't hatch until 7:30. By that time, my 3rd will already be gone. Obviously, the best reaction is to deny the proxy pylon from going down in the first place, in which case I won't even need to make roaches at all, but that is not always possible.
So when exactly would it be wise to build a 5:30 roach warren, and what scouting info would you have at that point that would lead to such a decision? (Only thing I can think of is seeing 3 gateways at the wall, but that is pretty rare. It's usually 2 gates at the wall and the 4th is pretty well hidden in the main somewhere.)
First thing that helps is placing your overlord near one of the geysers in the main. A BIG tell of the Sangate is that it doesn't get a second gas for a really long time, so if you spot that your opponent just never takes his second gas in his main or at his natural, then you're solid for throwing down a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 (which also helps against the MANtrain as well).
Second big thing is moving out with a zealot and a probe at 4:30. Assuming you're scouting your side of the map well, you shouldn't have any hidden probes or pylons very close to your base, and often times the Sangate player will not bother to hide a probe since the pressure hits so early.
Another useful technique is doing a ling poke in conjunction with your overlord scout. I've actually seen players like Jaedong do a very specific ling poke with ~6 lings after the zealot moves out that almost always force at least one unit to warp in back at home (since there is only a sentry to defend the wall). You can definitely do this scout before 6:00 (more like 5:30) if you see that zealot move out to confirm if it's a Sangate/4-gate or a more normal build.
But in general, if you see a Protoss player moving out like he's obviously going to do warp gate pressure, you should think about throwing down a second gas and a roach warren because you're going to need it, most likely.
On September 28 2014 01:43 Frankie Teardrop wrote: Question about responding to the SanGate (or really any kind of 4 gate zealot/MsC pressure on my 3rd base around 6:00-6:30):
The guide says to place a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 to have emergency roaches out to defend the zealot warpins. However, when I sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6:00, it usually isn't until 6:15-6:30 that I am able to confirm whether the Protoss is on 1 or 2 gas. If it is 6:15 when I confirm that he is only on 1 gas and has 4 gates, and I throw down my roach warren IMMEDIATELY, it won't be done until 7:00, and my roaches won't hatch until 7:30. By that time, my 3rd will already be gone. Obviously, the best reaction is to deny the proxy pylon from going down in the first place, in which case I won't even need to make roaches at all, but that is not always possible.
So when exactly would it be wise to build a 5:30 roach warren, and what scouting info would you have at that point that would lead to such a decision? (Only thing I can think of is seeing 3 gateways at the wall, but that is pretty rare. It's usually 2 gates at the wall and the 4th is pretty well hidden in the main somewhere.)
First thing that helps is placing your overlord near one of the geysers in the main. A BIG tell of the Sangate is that it doesn't get a second gas for a really long time, so if you spot that your opponent just never takes his second gas in his main or at his natural, then you're solid for throwing down a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 (which also helps against the MANtrain as well).
I am very curious about this overlord checking gases in the main. I am well aware of the Protoss gas timings, and know that if they stay on one gas past 5:00 or so, that I need to expect aggression, but I don't have a way to check on the main gas timings until I sac my first OV at 6:00. What I do is I send my initial OV to the Protoss natural to check for his expansion timing, and later the timing of the gases at the natural. My 9 OV I send over my own natural to spot for cannon rushes before sending him to a safe spot outside the Protoss main to sac at 6:00. Before this point, I have no idea whether the Protoss has 1 or 2 gases in his main base.
Should I send my 9 OV into the main earlier than 6:00 to check for gas count in the main base? I have always been told to sac an ov at 6:00 vs gateway expand, and as such, it's usually not until 6:15 or so that I can confirm 1 gas vs 2 gas.
On September 28 2014 01:43 Frankie Teardrop wrote: Question about responding to the SanGate (or really any kind of 4 gate zealot/MsC pressure on my 3rd base around 6:00-6:30):
The guide says to place a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 to have emergency roaches out to defend the zealot warpins. However, when I sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6:00, it usually isn't until 6:15-6:30 that I am able to confirm whether the Protoss is on 1 or 2 gas. If it is 6:15 when I confirm that he is only on 1 gas and has 4 gates, and I throw down my roach warren IMMEDIATELY, it won't be done until 7:00, and my roaches won't hatch until 7:30. By that time, my 3rd will already be gone. Obviously, the best reaction is to deny the proxy pylon from going down in the first place, in which case I won't even need to make roaches at all, but that is not always possible.
So when exactly would it be wise to build a 5:30 roach warren, and what scouting info would you have at that point that would lead to such a decision? (Only thing I can think of is seeing 3 gateways at the wall, but that is pretty rare. It's usually 2 gates at the wall and the 4th is pretty well hidden in the main somewhere.)
First thing that helps is placing your overlord near one of the geysers in the main. A BIG tell of the Sangate is that it doesn't get a second gas for a really long time, so if you spot that your opponent just never takes his second gas in his main or at his natural, then you're solid for throwing down a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 (which also helps against the MANtrain as well).
I am very curious about this overlord checking gases in the main. I am well aware of the Protoss gas timings, and know that if they stay on one gas past 5:00 or so, that I need to expect aggression, but I don't have a way to check on the main gas timings until I sac my first OV at 6:00. What I do is I send my initial OV to the Protoss natural to check for his expansion timing, and later the timing of the gases at the natural. My 9 OV I send over my own natural to spot for cannon rushes before sending him to a safe spot outside the Protoss main to sac at 6:00. Before this point, I have no idea whether the Protoss has 1 or 2 gases in his main base.
Should I send my 9 OV into the main earlier than 6:00 to check for gas count in the main base? I have always been told to sac an ov at 6:00 vs gateway expand, and as such, it's usually not until 6:15 or so that I can confirm 1 gas vs 2 gas.
Unless you're going hatch first, spotting the hatch isn't necessary. Even then, I don't think it's necessary to spot for cannon rushes on a lot of 2-player maps because you can spot the probe coming with your first overlord and then just pull a drone around 2:30ish to check for a building pylon or whatever. Then again, on 2-player maps, you could just drone scout....
In any case, I tend to send my first two overlords out immediately because once the pool is done, you're pretty much safe from cannons. In any case, you should probably be sending your first overlord to check the natural and then spot the gases in the main and rally your second overlord to the natural (after spotting the hatch, if it pleases you). That way you can get a good idea of the overall gas counts.
And like I said, if he moves out with a zealot/MSC earlier than 4:30, you're certainly welcome to scout a bit earlier just to make sure.
On September 28 2014 01:43 Frankie Teardrop wrote: Question about responding to the SanGate (or really any kind of 4 gate zealot/MsC pressure on my 3rd base around 6:00-6:30):
The guide says to place a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 to have emergency roaches out to defend the zealot warpins. However, when I sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6:00, it usually isn't until 6:15-6:30 that I am able to confirm whether the Protoss is on 1 or 2 gas. If it is 6:15 when I confirm that he is only on 1 gas and has 4 gates, and I throw down my roach warren IMMEDIATELY, it won't be done until 7:00, and my roaches won't hatch until 7:30. By that time, my 3rd will already be gone. Obviously, the best reaction is to deny the proxy pylon from going down in the first place, in which case I won't even need to make roaches at all, but that is not always possible.
So when exactly would it be wise to build a 5:30 roach warren, and what scouting info would you have at that point that would lead to such a decision? (Only thing I can think of is seeing 3 gateways at the wall, but that is pretty rare. It's usually 2 gates at the wall and the 4th is pretty well hidden in the main somewhere.)
First thing that helps is placing your overlord near one of the geysers in the main. A BIG tell of the Sangate is that it doesn't get a second gas for a really long time, so if you spot that your opponent just never takes his second gas in his main or at his natural, then you're solid for throwing down a roach warren around 5:30-6:00 (which also helps against the MANtrain as well).
I am very curious about this overlord checking gases in the main. I am well aware of the Protoss gas timings, and know that if they stay on one gas past 5:00 or so, that I need to expect aggression, but I don't have a way to check on the main gas timings until I sac my first OV at 6:00. What I do is I send my initial OV to the Protoss natural to check for his expansion timing, and later the timing of the gases at the natural. My 9 OV I send over my own natural to spot for cannon rushes before sending him to a safe spot outside the Protoss main to sac at 6:00. Before this point, I have no idea whether the Protoss has 1 or 2 gases in his main base.
Should I send my 9 OV into the main earlier than 6:00 to check for gas count in the main base? I have always been told to sac an ov at 6:00 vs gateway expand, and as such, it's usually not until 6:15 or so that I can confirm 1 gas vs 2 gas.
Lowko teaches his students to scout the Protoss main with two lings from a 15 pool. Only if these lings see two gases, he lets them take a third, else they are told to delay it. That might not be the mainstream for (Korean) pro players, but it's still a perfectly fine way to open in the matchup.
1) If I am about to sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6-7 min and I notice a stalker patrolling the ledge, should I abandon the sac and just put down a couple safety spores, or should I go ahead and send him in and hope he sees something relevant before he gets shot down? If it's a sentry, I can usually manage to get vision of most of the protoss main before my OV is killed, but a stalker usually kills it before I can even spot the gas geysers, let alone any tech buildings or gates. I tend to notice that protoss usually make stalkers instead of sentries to deny overlord scouts when there is something they really want to hide...
2) How many gas geysers will the Protoss take when doing a proxy oracle or DT rush? I don't see these types of cheese often, so I have no replays to use as reference.
3) When facing a protoss using a 1gate FE build, I send in an overlord @ 6:00, and against FFE I send one in @ 7:00. If he opens with the super greedy nexus > gateway build, should I just split the difference and send one in at 6:30, or is that too early?
Thanks, and great guide, by the way! I don't think I mentioned that last time.
On October 23 2014 00:04 Frankie Teardrop wrote: A few random scouting questions:
1) If I am about to sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6-7 min and I notice a stalker patrolling the ledge, should I abandon the sac and just put down a couple safety spores, or should I go ahead and send him in and hope he sees something relevant before he gets shot down? If it's a sentry, I can usually manage to get vision of most of the protoss main before my OV is killed, but a stalker usually kills it before I can even spot the gas geysers, let alone any tech buildings or gates. I tend to notice that protoss usually make stalkers instead of sentries to deny overlord scouts when there is something they really want to hide...
2) How many gas geysers will the Protoss take when doing a proxy oracle or DT rush? I don't see these types of cheese often, so I have no replays to use as reference.
3) When facing a protoss using a 1gate FE build, I send in an overlord @ 6:00, and against FFE I send one in @ 7:00. If he opens with the super greedy nexus > gateway build, should I just split the difference and send one in at 6:30, or is that too early?
Thanks, and great guide, by the way! I don't think I mentioned that last time.
1) If the stalker is in the main, there's a good chance he's not watching the overlord in the natural (and his tech is probably close to there anyway). I suggest sacking the natural overlord instead and skirting around the main and checking the edges with the other overlord.
2) I assume you're talking about 2 base. Most of the time, it's going to be 2 gases very early, no MSC, no forge upgrades, and one or less sentries. This is one of those things where you just have to do some poking with lings and overlords and notice that there's not a lot of gas being spent.
3) Tbh, I think it's best to treat it pretty much like a FFE anyway. You might scout A LITTLE BIT earlier (I wouldn't object to 6:30), but the fact is that going gateway after expansion doesn't really get the tech up THAT much faster than a FFE.
On October 23 2014 00:04 Frankie Teardrop wrote: A few random scouting questions:
1) If I am about to sac my first OV into the Protoss main @ 6-7 min and I notice a stalker patrolling the ledge, should I abandon the sac and just put down a couple safety spores, or should I go ahead and send him in and hope he sees something relevant before he gets shot down? If it's a sentry, I can usually manage to get vision of most of the protoss main before my OV is killed, but a stalker usually kills it before I can even spot the gas geysers, let alone any tech buildings or gates. I tend to notice that protoss usually make stalkers instead of sentries to deny overlord scouts when there is something they really want to hide...
2) How many gas geysers will the Protoss take when doing a proxy oracle or DT rush? I don't see these types of cheese often, so I have no replays to use as reference.
3) When facing a protoss using a 1gate FE build, I send in an overlord @ 6:00, and against FFE I send one in @ 7:00. If he opens with the super greedy nexus > gateway build, should I just split the difference and send one in at 6:30, or is that too early?
Thanks, and great guide, by the way! I don't think I mentioned that last time.
1) If the stalker is in the main, there's a good chance he's not watching the overlord in the natural (and his tech is probably close to there anyway). I suggest sacking the natural overlord instead and skirting around the main and checking the edges with the other overlord.
2) I assume you're talking about 2 base. Most of the time, it's going to be 2 gases very early, no MSC, no forge upgrades, and one or less sentries. This is one of those things where you just have to do some poking with lings and overlords and notice that there's not a lot of gas being spent.
3) Tbh, I think it's best to treat it pretty much like a FFE anyway. You might scout A LITTLE BIT earlier (I wouldn't object to 6:30), but the fact is that going gateway after expansion doesn't really get the tech up THAT much faster than a FFE.
2) How many gas geysers will the Protoss take when doing a proxy oracle or DT rush? I don't see these types of cheese often, so I have no replays to use as reference.
If you Drone scout then a balls-to-the-wall Dark Templar or Oracle rush is easily scouted because you'll see the Protoss take both their gases very early on and then immediately saturate those gases upon completion. The Protoss won't be able to prevent you from scouting this so you should see it quite easily. If you don't Drone scout then you probably won't know something is up until you see that the Protoss hasn't expanded at a normal time, but even that should be enough to trigger some Spore Crawlers being placed down. If the Protoss is delaying their expansion beyond a 22 Nexus MSC Expand timing then they're up to something...
I don't know if this will help further, but the earliest proxy Dark Templar build that I've been able to hit whilst still placing down an expansion at a normal time (22 Nexus) and getting a MSC is like this:
9 Pylon
13 Gateway (Send Probe To Proxy Location)
15 Gas
16 Pylon (Proxy)
18 Zealot
20 Cybernetics Core
22 Nexus
22 MSC
22 Warpgate Research
22 Pylon (Natural Wall)
23 Gas (2)
Cut Probe Production Once Main Saturated
25 Twilight Council (~4:45)
25 2xGateway (Natural Wall)
25 Dark Shrine (~5:35)
Resume Probe Production With Constant Chronoboost
With this type of opening the Dark Templar will warp-in at ~7:15 and the Protoss will be able to afford three of them. This obviously isn't the earliest timing that you can hit with Dark Templar, but it is the earliest timing you can hit whilst maintaining the facade of a normal expansion (give or take a few seconds). I imagine there are similar builds that get a proxy Stargate instead of a proxy Twilight Council and the timing would be very similar. These builds are harder to scout for because they don't have an obvious tell other than the second Pylon being missing, and it's very hard for Zerg to know that the second Pylon is missing if they don't Drone scout.
Thank you too, Sated. It has been fun practicing with you on ladder, by the way. I am Yar on battle.net.
Here's a VoD of PiG coaching a high masters player and explaining how to react to gateway openers. I found it very informative, even if most of it is probably already in the guide.
On October 30 2014 21:40 velvex wrote: Here's a VoD of PiG coaching a high masters player and explaining how to react to gateway openers. I found it very informative, even if most of it is probably already in the guide.
On October 30 2014 21:40 velvex wrote: Here's a VoD of PiG coaching a high masters player and explaining how to react to gateway openers. I found it very informative, even if most of it is probably already in the guide.
It starts at around 1:16:20 (linking to a specific time doesn't seem to work anymore).
PiG is such a cool dude! Thanks for sharing.
Yeah, and I also get the impression he is a seriously good coach, not just some GM/pro player who offers coaching and randomly tells people what they did wrong.