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Hi everybody, it’s been a while but here is my first guide for Legacy of the Void! It has been a long time since I made a guide and this one is going to be a Zerg Versus Terran overview. I will be doing an overview on defending certain all ins, ling/bane/corruptor/lurk into hive versus Bio and how to combat Mech. This will feature replays from my games on Korea utilizing these builds and due to the newish release you will see Diamonds/GM’s and masters. Without further ado let’s begin!
The first build I will go over is my zvt composition versus Bio. The build is a ling/bane into corruptor (or muta)/lurker into ultralisks. I will go into further into detail on this below.
Build versus Bio
- 13 – Overlord
- 14 – Drone Scout (player preference)
- 17 – Hatch
- 17 – Gas
- 17 – Pool
- 100 gas – Take drones out
- Spawning Pool finishes – 2x queens + ling speed
- 32 – 3rd base hatchery + overlord + roach warren
- 36 – 2x Queens (creep spread)
- 3:15 – 3:20 – Sacrifice overlord
- 3:15 – 3:30 – take 2nd gas + put drones back on first gas
- 4:30 – 4:45 – Go lair + get 3rd and 4th gas + double evo + Baneling nest
- Get 1/1 (Melee/Carapace unless you scout mech)
- Lair Finishes – Spire
- Get 2/2 as soon as 1/1 finishes
- Once 2/2 is started, get an infestation pit + Hydra den (this will be morphed into a Lurker Den asap)
- Infestation Pit Finishes - Hive
- Lurker Den Finishes - Morph 8-12 Lurkers
- Hive Finishes - Ultra Cavern and 3/3 + adrenaline glands
Further Elaboration on the build
The above is the basics of the build. I am going to go into further detail on it as timings may change based on opponents actions. For starters you can delay the 2x queens until after another drone pump if you want, that is up to you and how you want to do it. The roach warren can be optional as well, but I find a roach warren a must as Terran’s love to do Hellbat timings.
The drone scout I like to do as I would make changes based on what I scout. If the Terran goes CC first, I will react by going 3 hatch before pool, if Terran is going 1 rax FE no gas I will 3 hatch before pool, if I scout gas + rax I will do the 17/17/17. This isn’t mandatory and if you prefer to go blind hatch first or 3 hatch that is up to you.
Once your hydralisk den finishes you want to start the Lurker Den. Now what you can do is start off Mutalisks (10-12) before teching to Lurkers and adding Corruptors later either once you see Liberators being made or adding them later. The main focus of corruptor (or muta) is to defend against drops easier and keeping the medivac count down. You don’t have to get corruptors and you can make them whenever you want, you can make lurkers first and then corruptors or vice versa. Personally I am making mutalisks first before adding in corruptors regardless of what the Terran is doing and transitioning into Lurkers at the same time as Hive. This will depend on the game and whether you think you need them or not.
Hive timing can change. I threw in decent timing that you should be starting hive, but this can change very easily as all games are different. If both players are being super passive, feel free to start it earlier. If he’s being super aggressive and you are barely holding on, delay it until you can regain control and get some breathing room (Normally when Lurkers are finished you will find yourself with some breathing room).
Mid Game and Lurker Usage
Once you get Lair your goal is ling/bane, you want to maintain map presence and know where the Terran is and how greedy he is being. You want to utilize flanks if possible when engaging, but for the most part your goal is to wait for the Terran to attack. If the Terran is expanding a ton, then you want to be aggressive as he won’t be able to hold his mass expansions if that’s all he’s doing. However for the most part you will want to be defensive, once Lurkers are out you want to keep your ling/bane near the Lurkers for support. If left alone it is very easy for a Terran Bio Ball take out your lurkers which you want to avoid. From my experience using Lurkers, the best way to use them is defensively while getting Hive. The goal is to get to Ultralisks, while you can try being aggressive with them it is very easy to lose them and the game shortly after. They need support and the games I have as replays show them defensively until later.
I also recommend putting a couple lurkers at external bases (such as your 4th) as they are extremely useful against drops and you will find it much easier to move out and not have a drop completely skirt around your static defense. This is again preference, I find doing it has saved my external bases from dying and not losing drones. You want to make at least 10 lurkers if you can. The goal is to use them to keep the Terran back while getting Ultralisks out.
Late Game Once Hive is done and you have Ultralisks is when you want to start pushing out with Lurkers. They are very good at zone control, for example if the Terran has a 4th on a ramp, preferably you’d like to have the lurkers on top of the ramp while your ultralisks take out the 4th. This prevents the Terran from just charging up the ramp and providing support to his Planetary Fortress(PF). The replays will showcase this in a couple of the games.
Now you can go Broodlords instead of Ultralisks, it would be a fast transition as you already have corruptors, but again this is a stylistic choice. You don’t have to do one or the other. If you decide to go Broodlord/corruptor, make sure to add some vipers as parasitic bomb is extremely useful versus heavy air and makes defending your Broodlords much easier.
Build versus Mech
- 13 – Overlord
- 14 – Drone Scout (player preference)
- 17 – Hatch
- 17 – Gas
- 17 – Pool
- 100 gas – Take drones out
- Spawning Pool finishes – 2x queens + ling speed
- 32 – 3rd base hatchery + overlord + roach warren
- 36 – 2x Queens (creep spread)
- 3:15 – 3:20 – Sacrifice overlord
- 3:15 – 3:30 – take 2nd gas + put drones back on first gas
- 4:30 – 4:45 – Go lair + get 3rd and 4th gas + double evo
- Get 1/1 (Ranged/Carapace)
- Lair Finishes – Spire + Infestation Pit + roach speed
- Soon as infestation pit finishes - Hive
The Mid Game Composition
Fighting mech can be quite difficult due to not being able to attack the Terran on their own turf. The goal as a Zerg is to mass expand, denying Terran bases while teching. The less gas Terran has to mine, the easier they are to deal with. Roach/Ravager is very good at doing this thanks to the Corrosive Bile ability. This can slow down Mech pushes as well as be extremely helpful when engaging the Terran Army. You want to spread out your army as much as possible and hit from as many sides as possible. Flanking will yield a much more cost effective trade than attacking in one direction. If you want you can add Hydra support, but I have found it is not needed and is gas you can use elsewhere for the hive tech that you decide to go to.
The Late Game Composition
Once you get hive, your goal is to get a broodlord/corruptor/viper army. You want around 4 vipers with enough energy to do a parasitic bomb, and enough corruptors to support the Broodlords. If the Terran is turtling on three base and not moving out, you can end the game with this composition. You should be mass expanding against meching players, especially ones that are turtling very heavily. Make sure to spread your corruptors out so that liberators don’t deal splash damage.
Defending the Reaper Allin
A common all in that is on the ladder is a reaper based all in. What the Terran does is make it look like they are doing a standard reaper build, but are actually pumping reapers out of 2-3 rax. Ways to know this is going to happen is the lack of natural as he will not be making another CC when doing this. If you drone scout and scout multiple rax being built is another sign. The best way to hold this is to throw down a roach warren asap, delaying zergling speed and making a few roaches. The amount you make depends how heavily Terran commits to them. If you see 6 reapers, I would keep 2-3 roaches in each base while transitioning. The more reapers there are, the more roaches you want to add.
Hellbat/Banshee Timings
This is a strong timing attack that can easily end a game if not scouted or prepared. This can easily be prepared for with proper scouting. The best way to know this is coming is when sacrificing an overlord at 3:15-3:30 as you will see a lack of 3rd CC, hellions still coming out (most of the time 2 factories with hellions coming out) and a starport. Once you can verify this, roach/queen will hold this easily if you can get the units out in time.
Defending Liberator Harass
To defend against the liberator harass I have found the best way is 1 spore at each base and making 3 ravagers (3 corrosive bile shots = 1 dead liberator). You also want to try and use queens if possible and split where your units are (so 3 ravagers in main/natural area, 2 queens near the third base). This makes it so you can take minimum damage and not waste as much mining time pulling workers away. Spores aren’t a necessity, but they are very good at forcing the liberators to go on the other side, thus your queens/ravagers can be closer rather than switching to both sides on each base.
Dealing with Drop Play
I touched on this briefly with Lurkers, but here is a more detailed version. For starters, the Zerg should have a good overlord spread to see drops coming. The faster you see the drop, the quicker the Zerg can react and get units in position.
When verifying the Terran is dropping, make sure to get some static defense (couple spines at least) and split your army up across all bases so that you can minimize as much damage as possible. When going Lurkers it is a lot easier to defend with a spine or 2 along with 1-2 lurkers at external bases. Once a base starts being mined out, instead of making 1-2 more lurkers at another base, just transfer the ones at the depleted base.
How I came up with the builds
I figured I would add a section on how I came up with these builds. Since even Legacy Beta I wanted to make Lurkers viable in zvt versus Bio. It took a lot of trial and error before I found a build that actually worked (I lost many zvt's trying different compositions).
Originally I tried muta/ling/bane into lurker, but that wasn't very good I found, too much gas on mutalisks and it was near impossible to be given the time to transition to lurkers, let alone it would delay your hive a lot more than if you don't make mutalisks. It was also very hard to engage bio/liberator/widow mine with this composition.
I tried Hydra/ling/lurker and found that wasn't very good (it has potential I think, but for what I want to accomplish not very good). Was easy to get lurkers, but hard to hold off big bio pushes with just hydra/ling. Then upgrades for range/carapace were a must and I found it difficult to engage a liberator/bio ball even with hydra/lurker.
The third thing I tried was doing roach/ravager. At first it seemed promising, but didn't take long before I realized it just wasn't good enough. It's a great rushing strategy, but Roaches end up not scaling well against bio even with Ravager support. This was scratched as it was a lot of gas to get ravagers, let alone lurkers and then trying to tech to Ultralisks. So eventually I decided this wasn't the best option.
I almost gave up on lurkers at this point as I didn't think ling/bane and adding in corruptors for liberators or medivacs would be very good. After testing it with many games I was wrong, this was the perfect strategy to get lurkers with. If this had gone the same as the other things I tried, I don't know what else I would have tried.
For the Mech build that was pretty easy for me to figure out, I remembered the Viper's new ability and how good it was and I had heard from other Zergs that roach/ravager is good versus mech, so tried that and haven't lost to mech yet in Legacy.
Replays
Without further blabbering here are the replays! There should be at least 2 mech games, 2 bio games, 2 reaper all in games in here. I can't remember them all as I named them, but I will add more if requested and I look through my replays to find them.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/abmvfkd10pepj4d/zvt.rar
Another way to do Lurkers:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/x2aqpkcpn5v2yya/zvt_replays_2.rar
Thanks everybody and if you have any questions feel free to ask on here, if you want me to elaborate on anything just respond here and I will do my best .
Thanks to Switch for taking a look and making some edits!
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Korea (South)319 Posts
Great guide! Very detailed and easy to understand too! I look forward to trying out these builds, and I hope to see your other guides soon. Thanks!
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Awesome. Love lurker play. Great to see you back with your guides.
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Before i even read the guide... BLADE HYPE! I feel enlightened on the arts of zerg strategy already.
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Nice to see you back in sc2, blade
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Awesome to see you back.
Yeah I insisted on playing Lurkers in beta... and I found much the same results as you. Tried roach/hydra/lurker at first, then tried lings/hydra/lurker... noticed transitioning in to corruptors was great.
Needless to say, glad to see the build up here! Means the strategy has potential =)
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Dude, was just browsing TL hoping for a first zerg guide by you, blade. Many many thanks for this! Will read up on it later.
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this is an excellent guide,I will try this out and report back my results
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I've played a few games with this and I really like it so far, feels very safe vs everything and once you get around 10 lurkers it is easy to stablise and head up to ultralisks. The only thing is I have very rarely been able to get the 8:30 hive as my gas is going on lurkers/corrupters/banelings so I probably need to work on that and take my 8 gases quicker. Scouting is incredibly important in this matchup due to the sheer number of ways Terran can play.
Taking my 4th base I usually do this around 80 supply but I think I need a better metric like number of drones or a certain point in my tech progression etc. do you have any thoughts on this?
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Man I have really been struggling with ZVT lately and I am looking forward to trying this out. Thanks Blade, for the guide and for keeping a good stream going.
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On November 25 2015 23:01 PepperMintTea wrote: I've played a few games with this and I really like it so far, feels very safe vs everything and once you get around 10 lurkers it is easy to stablise and head up to ultralisks. The only thing is I have very rarely been able to get the 8:30 hive as my gas is going on lurkers/corrupters/banelings so I probably need to work on that and take my 8 gases quicker. Scouting is incredibly important in this matchup due to the sheer number of ways Terran can play.
Taking my 4th base I usually do this around 80 supply but I think I need a better metric like number of drones or a certain point in my tech progression etc. do you have any thoughts on this?
Well in general it's just a timeline, delaying hive a little bit isn't going to hurt at all. When I do start my hive around that time I am delaying Corruptors normally which usually means the Terran I am playing isn't doing super heavy drops or at least not heavy liberator usage.
Glad it's working out for you though, personally extremely fun to use :D
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what about hydra ling bane lurker? corrupters seem expensive but i suppose libs force it.
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On November 26 2015 07:18 A_Scarecrow wrote: what about hydra ling bane lurker? corrupters seem expensive but i suppose libs force it.
Hydra/ling/lurker was pretty gas intensive, but then came the problem that drops could still be a pain and liberators were insanely powerful. Then it comes down to which upgrades do you get? Melee/carapace? That doesn't scale well when going heavy hydra usage. Range/carapace? That might be ok but then ling/bane aren't going to do very well versus bio.
Also Corruptors are useful in chasing down medivacs, help keep medivac count down while taking down Libs without much issue. It's also fun to pee on buildings and destroy them
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So no ranged attack upgrade correct? (for the basic bio build that is). Also, are there any triggers to get infestors, or are they kinda not needed/overlapped by vipers for air?
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That is correct no ranged attack with the bio build. Infestors are a personal choice, their good I just was never a big fan of infestors as well that I keep forgetting they exist as there are other ways to deal with air now.
Definitely imagine it would be fun to fungal while watching lurkers destroy the bio army
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Thanks for posting this blade. Cool to see a truly detailed guide come out for void. It was nice of you to put in the effort!
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How do you take your third that early before speed is done vs reaper?
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I send my lings out after the reaper and take my 3rd. Works great longest my third has been delayed was losing a drone once and having to resend it.
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i've been going 18g 18p , a bit greedier but the timings work out a bit nicer imo
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ling baneling corruptor, gotta try that, how many corruptors do you go for? hydra ling is way too resource heavy to make any transition and I gotta find another unit comp, thanks for the guide
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There is no set number of corruptors as if he's going super liberator heavy you'll have to make a good amount of corruptors.
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I am pretty lost ZvT at the moment. I don't know what composition I should make vs very heavy liberator bio masses? Just ling/blng + corrupters? Can someone help? I tried roach/hydra/ling today but it's just very weak against some timings. I did it purely to be able to deal with the mass liberators :/.
Also the liberator herassment is so strong. They kill everything so fast, it's a real pain.
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You need corruptors versus heavy liberator usage. I like to add lurkers with ling/bane as I find it most effective. That is ultimately up to you.
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lurkers vs. bio is the definition of starcraft to me. gonna watch those reps, thanks!
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Now a pretty general question: At what exact time do you sacrifice overlords for scouting vs. Terran?
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It says in the guide, but 3:15 - 3:20 is normally when I sacrifice. You'll see whatever you need to see assuming the overlord can make it that far
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ive tried your build and honestly cant seem to do it i run out of gas too fast and die to lib marine tank push. i cant take my 4th on most maps fast enough as all the terrans iverse keep putting on alot of pressure with drops.
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The drops are a common response while you are teching, best way I have found to deal with it is to split up your army manually until his giant push (leaving a small group behind encase of a drop) and a separate control group for the anti drop units.
You can get a 4th pretty quickly depending on what the Terran is doing. If he's going for a quicker 3rd CC you should be able to get a 4th easily, if he's doing a 2 base timing you will want to delay your 4th a bit while defending against it. If he's dropping you a lot feel free to go corruptors first so you can clean up his drops or add a couple spines to the easiest to drop bases so they can help while you send units.
Personally I found dropping just as problematic with roach/ravager which is why I wish Mutas weren't so countered by Liberator play t-t.
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I've found myself going BL in this matchup instead of Ultralisk, this means I don't really have to worry about building too many corrupters, I already have the spire and it feels like a natural transition. When I get to the final form and am ready to push I bring a few lurkers with me under my BL and then just keep building corrupters.
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Yeah it definitely works great for a broodlord transition. I just love ultralisks so much is why I prefer them, but either or works . I think in some situations it's definitely better to do broodlords than ultralisks later as well.
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Thanks Blade for that guide. I'll try] to apply that in the ladder
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Thanks Blade! I'm coming back after a long break. Your HOTS guide was hugely helpful.
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This is interesting to read, and the replays are a great watch.
Everyone has been telling me "go roach/ravager or you're screwed vs. Terran."
Nice to see a different approach (especially considering it's highly likely RR will get nerfed
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That's why I have been messing with different builds. One of two things are bound to happen, either terrans figure out roach/ravager or it gets nerfed. I'm no pro so I can do these things and not abuse the ravager for easy wins for now as I have nothing to lose but ladder points trying these out.
glad you all are enjoying this guide, ZvZ is my next one.
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Thank you for this! I don't know what it is about lotv, it's not even liberators alone, I just seemed to have a way more difficult time going muta/ling/bane against T lately. Had an abysmal win rate trying to get it to work like in hots, then gave up and tried this and it's fantastic. hold fire lurkers are like ranged baneling bombs, so much fun and I'm winning a lot more as well.
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As a terran bio player, I'm terrified of lurkers. I was pretty happy about seeing them only rarely, but I fear this guide is going to make my next ladder session much harder ! :-D Good guide though, lurkers seem like an interesting unit to play with and to play against !
Just one question: do banelings and lurkers really synergize that well ? I mean banes force splits from the terran, which in turn will lower the effectiveness of the lurkers. You have to get banelings to survive the early terran pushes, I get that, but once you do have your 10 lurkers out, do you keep making banes ? Wouldn't a lurker/ling/corruptors composition be almost as efficient (maybe with a few more lurkers) while also allowing you to have more gas for the ultra transition ?
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glad you all are enjoying this guide, ZvZ is my next one.
I'm eagerly waiting for the ZvP guide, you make me sad
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Netherlands4511 Posts
Do you really feel that lurkers add a lot to this composition?
Your build, and the way you describe the use of units makes perfect sense. However I'm not sure if getting lurkers, is worth it. Bio + Tank is pretty popular and tanks do okay vs lurkers, lurkers are a hard unit to push with as the terran generally makes a pull back motion already vs ling/bane and lurkers take a while to burrow. In games where I'm not using lurkers I already have a hard time not dying to tank pushes before ultras, and lurkers would delay that quite a bit. But if they help with crushing armies then I guess later ultras is fine.
Will try it out and report back to you. Thanks for the guide.
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On December 03 2015 22:48 Liquid`Ret wrote:Do you really feel that lurkers add a lot to this composition? Your build, and the way you describe the use of units makes perfect sense. However I'm not sure if getting lurkers, is worth it. Bio + Tank is pretty popular and tanks do okay vs lurkers, lurkers are a hard unit to push with as the terran generally makes a pull back motion already vs ling/bane and lurkers take a while to burrow. In games where I'm not using lurkers I already have a hard time not dying to tank pushes before ultras, and lurkers would delay that quite a bit. But if they help with crushing armies then I guess later ultras is fine. Will try it out and report back to you. Thanks for the guide.
I have found that lurkers are quite a "larvae efficent?" unit which makes them a nice addition to the army whilst you head for hive tech. Normally I would rely on just tons of ling baneling but it's not as reliable anymore.
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On December 03 2015 22:48 Liquid`Ret wrote:Do you really feel that lurkers add a lot to this composition? Your build, and the way you describe the use of units makes perfect sense. However I'm not sure if getting lurkers, is worth it. Bio + Tank is pretty popular and tanks do okay vs lurkers, lurkers are a hard unit to push with as the terran generally makes a pull back motion already vs ling/bane and lurkers take a while to burrow. In games where I'm not using lurkers I already have a hard time not dying to tank pushes before ultras, and lurkers would delay that quite a bit. But if they help with crushing armies then I guess later ultras is fine. Will try it out and report back to you. Thanks for the guide.
It really depends for the lurkers. I have found them to be amazing life savers at times as they are sooo good defensively while teching to hive. It can also slow a Terran push down a bit as well if you can get them out soon enough or after you clear out the first earlyish push.
I have found Lurkers extremely useful though when attacking a Terran 4th base. Their usefulness really shines in situations like that as Terran's can't support their PF being destroyed when there are 8 lurkers in their way, let alone engaging a PF as Lurkers out range them.
They aren't a necessity and ling/bling/corruptor -> ultra will work just fine, I just find Lurkers pretty useful in my testings as it. Would be interesting to see how it works for you and am curious how it works out!
On December 03 2015 21:45 Magus.421 wrote:I'm eagerly waiting for the ZvP guide, you make me sad
Unfortunately my ZvP is kind of shit right now and I haven't found the best way to play versus Protoss. Sorry
On December 03 2015 18:22 LoneYoShi wrote: As a terran bio player, I'm terrified of lurkers. I was pretty happy about seeing them only rarely, but I fear this guide is going to make my next ladder session much harder ! :-D Good guide though, lurkers seem like an interesting unit to play with and to play against !
Just one question: do banelings and lurkers really synergize that well ? I mean banes force splits from the terran, which in turn will lower the effectiveness of the lurkers. You have to get banelings to survive the early terran pushes, I get that, but once you do have your 10 lurkers out, do you keep making banes ? Wouldn't a lurker/ling/corruptors composition be almost as efficient (maybe with a few more lurkers) while also allowing you to have more gas for the ultra transition ?
I normally try to stop myself making banelings once Lurkers are out, but you do still need them to a point to engage the Terran bioball. When flanking or engaging Banelings still prove useful and once Terran knows Lurkers are out they are going to split anyway.
On December 03 2015 16:55 Tachion wrote: Thank you for this! I don't know what it is about lotv, it's not even liberators alone, I just seemed to have a way more difficult time going muta/ling/bane against T lately. Had an abysmal win rate trying to get it to work like in hots, then gave up and tried this and it's fantastic. hold fire lurkers are like ranged baneling bombs, so much fun and I'm winning a lot more as well.
Happy to hear it! Yes I was finding muta/ling/bane is terrible versus Terran now of days. I even tried it yesterday as a curiosity and blech just got rekt the Mutalisks felt useless, specially when Terran had 4 liberators out. I wish I could do both styes or muta into lurker as that would be more fun but Corruptors will do!
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On December 03 2015 22:48 Liquid`Ret wrote:Do you really feel that lurkers add a lot to this composition? Your build, and the way you describe the use of units makes perfect sense. However I'm not sure if getting lurkers, is worth it. Bio + Tank is pretty popular and tanks do okay vs lurkers, lurkers are a hard unit to push with as the terran generally makes a pull back motion already vs ling/bane and lurkers take a while to burrow. In games where I'm not using lurkers I already have a hard time not dying to tank pushes before ultras, and lurkers would delay that quite a bit. But if they help with crushing armies then I guess later ultras is fine. Will try it out and report back to you. Thanks for the guide.
IMO, Lurkers are key to this style of composition.
Think about the detection units for Terran - either scans or ravens. Good micro can force the Terran to pop their scans, and corruptors can easily take out the Ravens. Unburrow time is relatively fast so even if they pop scans you can micro away the units who are in danger in most cases. With a nice spread on lurkers, if they want to go the scan route it will severely slow their push down at the least, in which time you have a chance to re-up your army.
Without Lurkers, this composition is much easier to deal with. Aside from going Muta to force some anti air (which is an uphill battle in LotV) Zerg has not had the power to actually control the opponents moves & force the opponents hand in past iterations of SC2. Lurkers actually force a response from your opponent. Zerg is not just a "reactive" race now, either if you go with roach/rav pressure, or lurkers. If you do not use either of these new units, Zerg is back to being only a reactive race, but the other races now have an easier time pressuring you than they did in past SC2 iterations.
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I mean this is no Ravager cheese but when that inevitably gets patched I'm definitely going to try this out.
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BLADE!!!!! Welcome back, super glad to see you writing something again! The HotS builds were my central pillar for a long time. Big fan.
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Awesome guide, sending much zerg love your way!
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Really nice guides blade!
One question I have for the composition against mech. You say to go ranged upgrades but if broodlords is the late game goal, wouldn't melee for the broodlings make more sense? Or do you go ranged upgrades since roach/ravager makes up a large portion of the mid game army?
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On December 07 2015 10:59 Damusson wrote: Really nice guides blade!
One question I have for the composition against mech. You say to go ranged upgrades but if broodlords is the late game goal, wouldn't melee for the broodlings make more sense? Or do you go ranged upgrades since roach/ravager makes up a large portion of the mid game army?
So I go ranged because of that exact reason is roach/ravager is a pretty big part of your army for a decent amount of the game. It's probably fine to get melee instead, but I feel like the extra broodling damage isn't that big of a deal.
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Now that there is less incentive in getting a cloud of muta as a kill switch or for base trading, can I keep air upgrades to zero? I realize that zerg is so gas hungry right now that 5 base gas is still takes a long time to max out.
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You don't have to get Air upgrades, I would get at least +1 attack so they do better against liberators. Not a must though.
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Can i see some VOD, just like Liquid`Ret, I see lukers make no sense in this BO. When u go Lbing +corrupter u can actually deal with all Units of T and also deny drops. So why we need to make Luker with a ton of gas...
Btw, you saved my Ladder point Blade, many thanks
P/s: Im not using your build with units combile: L,B, and Cor. I actually using gas for quick upgrade ASAP and it worked just fine. But when i checked my replay, I always have low supply than T. Is it the problem of my macro skill? And sorry for my bad Eng
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Concerning 3 rax reaper I think your answer is pretty much the worst idea you can give. A baneling bust is not working in most of the maps where 3 rax reaper is good. You can pretty much delay indefinitively the BBust because of grenades and because speedlings is much less of a counter for reaper than it was before. If the 3 rax reaper guy is active on the map poking your speedling and your morphing zergling its even worst.
The best answer has been given by Nerchio vs Marinelord. Pop in a few roach defend and expand profit of your 3 base economy and win with ultras. I play 3 rax reaper for more than two years now and especially in Lotv whenever I see someone counter allining me its pretty much free win.
The best response is an advantage in tech/economy.
I never faced yet a nydus counter allin but I would guess that if you absolutely want to counter allin 3 rax reaper it might be your better bet.
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Nice guide, thanks a lot Blade, glad to see you're back! Will test it on ladder soon Still waiting for ZvP guide though, in this match up roach/ravager/hydra into ultra/hydra/viper (PB for air, BC for ground) seems fine for now.
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On December 07 2015 20:09 klup wrote: Concerning 3 rax reaper I think your answer is pretty much the worst idea you can give. A baneling bust is not working in most of the maps where 3 rax reaper is good. You can pretty much delay indefinitively the BBust because of grenades and because speedlings is much less of a counter for reaper than it was before. If the 3 rax reaper guy is active on the map poking your speedling and your morphing zergling its even worst.
The best answer has been given by Nerchio vs Marinelord. Pop in a few roach defend and expand profit of your 3 base economy and win with ultras. I play 3 rax reaper for more than two years now and especially in Lotv whenever I see someone counter allining me its pretty much free win.
The best response is an advantage in tech/economy.
I never faced yet a nydus counter allin but I would guess that if you absolutely want to counter allin 3 rax reaper it might be your better bet.
Well it really depends on the Terran. If you kill the first group of reapers with speedlings then yes it works. If he retreats back with the reapers then you are correct that it won't work. Most Terrans I face when they do this build (well until this week) were doing a do or die 3 rax reaper strategy. Once I killed their main group of reapers nothing they could do against a baneling bust.
On December 07 2015 19:56 TheMon wrote: Can i see some VOD, just like Liquid`Ret, I see lukers make no sense in this BO. When u go Lbing +corrupter u can actually deal with all Units of T and also deny drops. So why we need to make Luker with a ton of gas...
Btw, you saved my Ladder point Blade, many thanks
P/s: Im not using your build with units combile: L,B, and Cor. I actually using gas for quick upgrade ASAP and it worked just fine. But when i checked my replay, I always have low supply than T. Is it the problem of my macro skill? And sorry for my bad Eng
Sure you can try to hold it while teching to Ultra's, but in my experience it can be insanely tough. Lurkers make it so, so much harder to engage into you then if you wait until Ultra's. I had a game yesterday where Lurkers came out at a perfect time, allowing me to hold off the Terran's push while waiting for Ultra's to be created (the cavern was still being made). Much more cost effective then ling/baneling as Lurkers AOE doesn't go away until the unit dies and is not suicidal .
As a note, in my replays I always seem to be behind in supply as well and am not sure if it's normal or not. No real pro zvt's to compare as they go roach/ravager so their supply is inflated by 2/3 supply units all game.
On December 07 2015 23:47 Muxtar wrote:Nice guide, thanks a lot Blade, glad to see you're back! Will test it on ladder soon Still waiting for ZvP guide though, in this match up roach/ravager/hydra into ultra/hydra/viper (PB for air, BC for ground) seems fine for now.
Yeah ZvP will be awhile unfortunately until I figure it out. Lucky for you though Pig released an excellent ZvP guide so feel free to take a look at that!
This zvt style is just my style (as most of my guides are pin pointed). I am not the biggest fan of roach/ravager due to drops and how slow/clunky they are compared to ling/bane. I also don't want to rely on roach/ravager as I feel eventually Terran will either figure it out or Blizzard will nerf them.
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On December 07 2015 11:03 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2015 10:59 Damusson wrote: Really nice guides blade!
One question I have for the composition against mech. You say to go ranged upgrades but if broodlords is the late game goal, wouldn't melee for the broodlings make more sense? Or do you go ranged upgrades since roach/ravager makes up a large portion of the mid game army? So I go ranged because of that exact reason is roach/ravager is a pretty big part of your army for a decent amount of the game. It's probably fine to get melee instead, but I feel like the extra broodling damage isn't that big of a deal. Sweet, I thought that might be the case. Thanks!
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What are the standard map vetoes for zerg? Should I just make a point of trying to learn all of the maps?
EDIT: Accidentally posted this in the wrong thread. Mods feel free to delete this :/
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Lately I see many pro zergs (ex. Leenock, Soulkey, Armani) going for fast muta into mass ravager/ling with ranged upgrades in ZvT. But when I play the composition on the ladder, I can't really see the advantage of that composition. Roach/ravager does much better when hitting for a timing, and ling/bling does much better with handling drops and dealing with skirmishes. So why does the pro zergs use that specific composition of ravager/ling? It's not like they are saving gas for the hive tech; they mass 20+ ravagers or so, and they don't go for fast hive tech either.
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Hm I haven't seen that too much, but I also haven't been able to watch as many pro zvt's as I would like.
That seems odd to go from muta to ling/ravager when it should be muta/ling/bane into faster ultra. Dunno very odd, but I know Ravagers are really strong right now so that might be why? Honestly couldn't say.
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Awesome guide as usual blade! Can you tell me, how much camera hotkeys do you use for your bases? Do you hotkey ALL your camera locations(8)? Also, which combinations of keys do you use? Thanks again for all the help and content you provide for the starcraft community!
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I can certainly answer that for you.
Here is my hotkey setup:
1 main army 2 special units (Lurkers) 3 Air (mutas/corruptors) 4 Spellcasters (infestors/vipers) 5 main hatchery 6 natural hatchery 7 third hatchery 8 all hatcheries
I use camera hotkeys for inject, F2 Natural, F3 Third base.
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On January 20 2016 08:20 blade55555 wrote: I can certainly answer that for you.
Here is my hotkey setup:
1 main army 2 special units (Lurkers) 3 Air (mutas/corruptors) 4 Spellcasters (infestors/vipers) 5 main hatchery 6 natural hatchery 7 third hatchery 8 all hatcheries
I use camera hotkeys for inject, F2 Natural, F3 Third base.
Woah! How do you reach to 7, 8? :O Or maybe you use different keys for those control groups? Because, when playing I find 6-8 keys really far away from where my left hand is initially. Thanks for the reply! ^^
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My hands can just reach that far . My hands are used to that since 2009 when I started broodwar and I never switched it around and never will at this point.
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On January 20 2016 23:55 weathEr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 08:20 blade55555 wrote: I can certainly answer that for you.
Here is my hotkey setup:
1 main army 2 special units (Lurkers) 3 Air (mutas/corruptors) 4 Spellcasters (infestors/vipers) 5 main hatchery 6 natural hatchery 7 third hatchery 8 all hatcheries
I use camera hotkeys for inject, F2 Natural, F3 Third base. Woah! How do you reach to 7, 8? :O Or maybe you use different keys for those control groups? Because, when playing I find 6-8 keys really far away from where my left hand is initially. Thanks for the reply! ^^
You can change 7 & 8 key to Tab and the key to the left to 1 key (above Tab key).
I usually lose vs Terran because I'm droning my third base when Terran push and I don't have army enough.
If I don't see 3th CC at 3:30 ovi sacrifice (like 1/1/1), How many drones do I have to make before make army?
I think 2 bases saturation and 8 drones at third but I'm not sure.
Thanks in advance.
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If you scout a 1/1/1 build most of the time I scout that (and starport doesn't have a tech lab) it's a hellbat push. That should hit around 4:20-4:30. So you would want to drone until 4:10 and then make some roaches (or queens/spine/lings if thats your thing) to defend and then back to droning. I would also recommend a spore crawler as it seems a lot of Terrans follow that up with a liberator.
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*posted in wrong thread* sorry.
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Trying to open these replays and it says that the version required to play this game is unavailable.
These replays weren't made with Beta, were they?
Anyone have a good fix?
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On February 09 2016 05:48 DoctorShades wrote: Trying to open these replays and it says that the version required to play this game is unavailable.
These replays weren't made with Beta, were they?
Anyone have a good fix?
They were done on the last patch. Not sure why they would stop working...
Try these replays here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/qn68s85p8ex3qyg/December Replay Pack.rar
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Thanks much, Blade; appreciate it.
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Thank you for the idea. It seems like terrnans got the idea of the roach ravager timing attack, and even though it works from time to time and I made my own changes to it so that it wouldn't be so predictable, the win ratio isn't as high as it was before.
I implemented the idea you gave here (not the exact build, but the same idea), and it works great. The only losses to it I have by now are only those games where I was late or forgot some parts of the idea. It is still fresh for me, so the implementation lacks, I forget to make the lurker den sometimes or even a few safety banes at the beginning, but when implemented well terrans don't have answers to it, at least yet.
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