On September 07 2018 20:04 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Maru 4-2 Zest
May this series at least be better than their last encounter, as I'd honestly argue that that became the new worst GSL final of all time.
not even close.
daddy nestea's bopping of forgotten son losira is the goat
Nope. Nestea vs Losira at least had 1 remotely good game (game 1). Also had some cool new tactics from Nestea at the time that were pretty big as far as ZvZ goes (remember the mass overseers?).
==
Maru vs Zest loses on all fronts. It was unremarkable, short, and incredibly one-sided.
Depending on how you judge the 2011 Super Tournament it doesn't even get the distinction of being the first consecutive finals win. I think the biggest reason it sucks is if you look at it in the context of who Maru and Zest are. Two players who have met numerous times and have fought hard to be considered among the top 10 GOATs. While Maru was a clear favorite going into it, you would think given Zest's ability he would've risen to the occassion and scraped something together to give us at least 1 competitive game. But no, instead he got btfo. It was a colossal disappointment.
On September 07 2018 20:04 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Maru 4-2 Zest
May this series at least be better than their last encounter, as I'd honestly argue that that became the new worst GSL final of all time.
not even close.
daddy nestea's bopping of forgotten son losira is the goat
I did a little viewing party at my friend's house for the NesTea vs Inca GSL final, they were not entertained
I even liked that final a little more than Maru vs Zest. Sure the gameplay was of even lower quality from Inca, but on a comedic level it's a total classic. It forever associated Inca with DTs, even to this day.
and dear god yet another not even close game, its weird cause its a little hard to tell what Maru does different than other terrans in games like these. I guess just near perfect micro combined with near perfect macro
On September 08 2018 13:27 Kommander wrote: This is why I wanted Stats to win against Zest. Stats actually had a chance to knock Maru out. Zest just dies to Maru.
yeah i really think Stats is much much better than Zest in both pvz and pvt right now, a shame
On September 08 2018 13:28 starkiller123 wrote: and dear god yet another not even close game, its weird cause its a little hard to tell what Maru does different than other terrans in games like these. I guess just near perfect micro combined with near perfect macro
with near perfect scouting and near perfect reactions: he doesn't take the third? I don't take my third and win.
On September 08 2018 13:30 litLikeBic wrote: bit late to the party, i see maru's already taken 2 within the first 15-20 min -- proxy raxes? were the games any good?
The games were good because of sheer hilarity of how badly Zest is getting destroyed.
On September 08 2018 13:30 litLikeBic wrote: bit late to the party, i see maru's already taken 2 within the first 15-20 min -- proxy raxes? were the games any good?
M well i am laughing my arse off, Maru makes Zest look like a bronzie honestly
On September 08 2018 13:35 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: New idea, Terran have to build roads between their buildings from their CCs and it costs lots of money to proxy
On September 08 2018 13:35 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: New idea, Terran have to build roads between their buildings from their CCs and it costs lots of money to proxy
And they need wood and bricks to build roads #SettlersOfKorhal
This series is so boring. How does shield battery even benefit toss in place of mothership core if terran can just do the same thing with repair and it doesn't even cost a significant amount of minerals? Repair literally costs 25% of the original cost to repair to full health. Ridiculous.
As a terran (who hasnt played in a while), i'm not liking this meta of proxying every game... T can do anything from that point, from all in to greedy expanding lol. Games havent been very exciting to watch
It's better (though it could hardly have gotten worse). Neeb vs Serral is the finals we all deserve (as long as it isn't anything like their WESG series).
Much better. Serral vs Neeb in the quarters is a travesty, and Reynor vs Showtime when they were in the same group made zero sense. Glad they fixed it.
Why wouldn't Maru proxy when he can get caught and not fall too far behind. He's like Steph Curry with his 3's -> it's potentially game breaking, in a great way
On September 08 2018 14:00 Bagration wrote: Why wouldn't Maru proxy when he can get caught and not fall too far behind. He's like Steph Curry with his 3's -> it's potentially game breaking, in a great way
This is the most mines I've seen built since that game between Special and Neeb where the proxied factory produced mines for 10 minutes straight, and Neeb chose not to kill it.
Maru's sense and seemingly just luck sometimes is crazy. Even the game he lost could have ended a lot earlier if he didn't catch the Inca trying to sneak into his main.
On September 08 2018 14:17 Latr02 wrote: Maru's sense and seemingly just luck sometimes is crazy. Even the game he lost could have ended a lot earlier if he didn't catch the Inca trying to sneak into his main.
Honestly that game was mercy, Zest didnt have enough stalkers to stop a dedicated doom drop and Maru was up 20 army supply prior to engagement.
On September 08 2018 14:21 Anc13nt wrote: Yeah, I think he'll need to win this GSL and Blizzcon before he converts all of the non-believers.
Nah i am serious, they will never accept anyone other than Mvp. I am with you though, Maru winning this GSL should make it clear and for me personally Maru is already the goat
On September 08 2018 14:18 Anc13nt wrote: If Maru wins this one, I think it's pretty much incontrovertible that he is the GOAT.
Not even close. Most dominant player sure but in terms of overall accomplishments Inno is still well ahead of him.
Yeah, as an Innovation fan, I would like to think that in terms of raw accomplishments, Innovation would still be greater even if Maru won this GSL. However, I feel like saying Innovation is greater than Maru based on that premise is kind of like saying Nada is greater than Flash, which is a legitimate opinion but definitely not the consensus.
Edit: Consequently, I would take back the word "incontrovertible" but I would instead say that, if Maru wins this, he would be considered GOAT by most people.
Personally I find it a bit weird that for all the talk of the "highest skilled era" that Artosis and many other pushed in S1 that Artosis himself seems so... nonchalant about Maru now. If this truly is the highest skilled era of the game then shouldn't this player be appropriately caster hyped?
On September 08 2018 14:21 Anc13nt wrote: Yeah, I think he'll need to win this GSL and Blizzcon before he converts all of the non-believers.
If Maru wins GSL AND Blizzcon he'd be close but I'd still give Inno a slight advantage.
I think that's insane Not as insane as the Mvp cult but still
On September 08 2018 14:38 Latr02 wrote: Personally I find it a bit weird that for all the talk of the "highest skilled era" that Artosis and many other pushed in S1 that Artosis himself seems so... nonchalant about Maru now. If this truly is the highest skilled era of the game then shouldn't this player be appropriately caster hyped?
Yeah especially artosis seems to dislike maru somewhat, i still remember maru winning gsl s1 but artosis hyping rogue a lot more in season 2 for whatever reason. Maybe because Maru is cheesy?
Not sure you can say 100% GOAT if he takes this GSL, but if he takes this GSL and then the WCS finals at Blizzcon, it would be pretty silly in my mind to even argue it any further... Korean Triple Crown + WESG + GSL 3-peat + Blizzcon. Again, I know a lot of this is all packed into a single year, and can be argued it is just "dominance" at this particular point in time.
Personally I'm intrigued how one-sided Maru is managing to make a lot of these recent GSL series look against some of the best this world has to offer.
PS: Oh yeah, most people would likely write it off altogether, but Maru's earnings will be far and away above everyone else if he takes this GSL + Blizzcon.
On September 08 2018 14:21 Anc13nt wrote: Yeah, I think he'll need to win this GSL and Blizzcon before he converts all of the non-believers.
If Maru wins GSL AND Blizzcon he'd be close but I'd still give Inno a slight advantage.
I think that's insane Not as insane as the Mvp cult but still
If Maru wins Blizzcon and GSL:
Maru 5 Starleagues, Inno 4 Starleagues + 1 second place
Maru 2 weekenders, Inno 4 weekenders, out of which Blizzcon for Maru and IEM Gyeonggi, WCS Season finals and GSL vs the World for Inno were tier 1 weekenders. WESG and IEM Gamescom tier 2 weekenders.
Not to mention that more of Inno's achievements came during the Kespa era.
I don't see how it's insane, seems very close to me. Take Blizzcon away and Inno is undoubtely ahead.
The only difference between the two is that Inno seems to have a lot of haters who try to belittle his achievements but try to be objective for a moment and you'll see that Maru still has a long way to go.
On September 08 2018 14:21 Anc13nt wrote: Yeah, I think he'll need to win this GSL and Blizzcon before he converts all of the non-believers.
If Maru wins GSL AND Blizzcon he'd be close but I'd still give Inno a slight advantage.
I think that's insane Not as insane as the Mvp cult but still
If Maru wins Blizzcon:
Maru 5 Starleagues, Inno 4 Starleagues + 1 second place
Maru 2 weekenders, Inno 4 weekenders, out of which Blizzcon for Maru and IEM Gyeonggi, WCS Season finals and GSL vs the World for Inno were tier 1 weekenders. WESG and IEM Gamescom tier 2 weekenders.
I don't see how it's insane, seems very close to me. Take Blizzcon away and Inno is undoubtely ahead.
The only difference between the two is that Inno seems to have a lot of haters who try to belittle his achievements but try to be objective for a moment and you'll see that Maru has still a long way to go.
If you only look at tournament wins maybe, but that is way too simplistic + we have to add proleague as well.
On September 08 2018 14:21 Anc13nt wrote: Yeah, I think he'll need to win this GSL and Blizzcon before he converts all of the non-believers.
If Maru wins GSL AND Blizzcon he'd be close but I'd still give Inno a slight advantage.
I think that's insane Not as insane as the Mvp cult but still
If Maru wins Blizzcon:
Maru 5 Starleagues, Inno 4 Starleagues + 1 second place
Maru 2 weekenders, Inno 4 weekenders, out of which Blizzcon for Maru and IEM Gyeonggi, WCS Season finals and GSL vs the World for Inno were tier 1 weekenders. WESG and IEM Gamescom tier 2 weekenders.
I don't see how it's insane, seems very close to me. Take Blizzcon away and Inno is undoubtely ahead.
The only difference between the two is that Inno seems to have a lot of haters who try to belittle his achievements but try to be objective for a moment and you'll see that Maru has still a long way to go.
If you only look at tournament wins maybe, but that is way too simplistic + we have to add proleague as well.
They were both insane in Proleague so it won't really favor anyone. What else should be looked at? ro4/ro8 finishes? There Maru has probably a slight advantage but not enough to put him clearly above Inno
On September 08 2018 14:21 Anc13nt wrote: Yeah, I think he'll need to win this GSL and Blizzcon before he converts all of the non-believers.
If Maru wins GSL AND Blizzcon he'd be close but I'd still give Inno a slight advantage.
I think that's insane Not as insane as the Mvp cult but still
If Maru wins Blizzcon:
Maru 5 Starleagues, Inno 4 Starleagues + 1 second place
Maru 2 weekenders, Inno 4 weekenders, out of which Blizzcon for Maru and IEM Gyeonggi, WCS Season finals and GSL vs the World for Inno were tier 1 weekenders. WESG and IEM Gamescom tier 2 weekenders.
I don't see how it's insane, seems very close to me. Take Blizzcon away and Inno is undoubtely ahead.
The only difference between the two is that Inno seems to have a lot of haters who try to belittle his achievements but try to be objective for a moment and you'll see that Maru has still a long way to go.
If you only look at tournament wins maybe, but that is way too simplistic + we have to add proleague as well.
They were both insane in Proleague so it won't really favor anyone. What else should be looked at? ro4/ro8 finishes? There Maru has probably a slight advantage but not enough to put him clearly above Inno
Depends how you value ro4/ro8 finishes. Proleague is close indeed, but maru still has a slight edge there. I will give you that "insane" might have been a strong word though.
Even if Maru wins this GSL, he will not be GOAT. Before this year, Maru won OSL in 2013, and SSL in 2015. So that's 1 OSL, 1 SSL, and 2 GSLs so far for Maru. He did win Proleague in 2016 and he has always performed in Proleague. Having said that, Innovation has won more Proleague titles than Maru and Innovation has always performed in Proleague as well.
If Maru wins this GSL and Blizzcon, then Innovation and Maru will be close for GOAT. But Maru needs to win both. Even if Maru loses this GSL and wins Blizzcon, I would still consider Innovation to be the GOAT.
On September 08 2018 15:18 xelnaga_empire wrote: Even if Maru wins this GSL, he will not be GOAT. Before this year, Maru won OSL in 2013, and SSL in 2015. So that's 1 OSL, 1 SSL, and 2 GSLs so far for Maru. He did win Proleague in 2016 and he has always performed in Proleague. Having said that, Innovation has won more Proleague titles than Maru and Innovation has always performed in Proleague as well.
If Maru wins this GSL and Blizzcon, then Innovation and Maru will be close for GOAT. But Maru needs to win both. Even if Maru loses this GSL and wins Blizzcon, I would still consider Innovation to be the GOAT.
On September 08 2018 15:18 xelnaga_empire wrote: Even if Maru wins this GSL, he will not be GOAT. Before this year, Maru won OSL in 2013, and SSL in 2015. So that's 1 OSL, 1 SSL, and 2 GSLs so far for Maru. He did win Proleague in 2016 and he has always performed in Proleague. Having said that, Innovation has won more Proleague titles than Maru and Innovation has always performed in Proleague as well.
If Maru wins this GSL and Blizzcon, then Innovation and Maru will be close for GOAT. But Maru needs to win both. Even if Maru loses this GSL and wins Blizzcon, I would still consider Innovation to be the GOAT.
Dude, go and ride a pony.
What's wrong with you? This is my opinion. You have your opinion too. Relax and breathe in. Get a chill pill.
On September 08 2018 15:18 xelnaga_empire wrote: Even if Maru wins this GSL, he will not be GOAT. Before this year, Maru won OSL in 2013, and SSL in 2015. So that's 1 OSL, 1 SSL, and 2 GSLs so far for Maru. He did win Proleague in 2016 and he has always performed in Proleague. Having said that, Innovation has won more Proleague titles than Maru and Innovation has always performed in Proleague as well.
If Maru wins this GSL and Blizzcon, then Innovation and Maru will be close for GOAT. But Maru needs to win both. Even if Maru loses this GSL and wins Blizzcon, I would still consider Innovation to be the GOAT.
Dude, go and ride a pony.
What's wrong with you? This is my opinion. You have your opinion too. Relax and breathe in. Get a chill pill.
My Apologies.Ok Ok. I'm just tired to read so many goats-not-goats-because. It doesn't get it better for starcraft.
On September 08 2018 14:38 Latr02 wrote: Personally I find it a bit weird that for all the talk of the "highest skilled era" that Artosis and many other pushed in S1 that Artosis himself seems so... nonchalant about Maru now. If this truly is the highest skilled era of the game then shouldn't this player be appropriately caster hyped?
They probably just hate the proxy play and you can tell they're not liking how popular it has become on the pro scene. It does become somewhat annoying after awhile but that's probably why he isn't hyped with maru as opposed to previous players, however, I do think Maru is the best there is
On September 08 2018 16:20 Mun_Su wrote: Is our period really considered highest skill area?
Yes, all players are constantly improving regardless of age or practice environment. Kespa teams shutting down, tons of players retiring or getting old didn't slow their improvement down at all.
On September 08 2018 16:20 Mun_Su wrote: Is our period really considered highest skill area?
Yes, all players are constantly improving regardless of age or practice environment. Kespa teams shutting down, tons of players retiring or getting old didn't slow their improvement down at all.
On September 08 2018 14:21 Anc13nt wrote: Yeah, I think he'll need to win this GSL and Blizzcon before he converts all of the non-believers.
If Maru wins GSL AND Blizzcon he'd be close but I'd still give Inno a slight advantage.
I think that's insane Not as insane as the Mvp cult but still
If Maru wins Blizzcon and GSL:
Maru 5 Starleagues, Inno 4 Starleagues + 1 second place
Maru 2 weekenders, Inno 4 weekenders, out of which Blizzcon for Maru and IEM Gyeonggi, WCS Season finals and GSL vs the World for Inno were tier 1 weekenders. WESG and IEM Gamescom tier 2 weekenders.
Not to mention that more of Inno's achievements came during the Kespa era.
I don't see how it's insane, seems very close to me. Take Blizzcon away and Inno is undoubtely ahead.
The only difference between the two is that Inno seems to have a lot of haters who try to belittle his achievements but try to be objective for a moment and you'll see that Maru still has a long way to go.
If you look purely at the number of tournaments won, then yeah INno and Maru are close. But that isn't everything. Maru is better in terms of dominance/streaks and consistancy. I don't think INno has even made consecutive ro8s in GSL while Maru might win three in a row.
During the kespa era, they both won two starleagues, and dominated very hard in different seasons. While INno has a few more weekenders, Maru has way more of ro4/finals appearances and was more consistant.
Speaking of being consistent, Maru didn't fall of the map when terran sucked. So many runs of being the only terran in the ro8 etc. At his worst during kespa he was still like the second best terran. None of that can be said for INno.
And Maru was the proleague GOAT, don't forget about that.
On September 08 2018 16:20 Mun_Su wrote: Is our period really considered highest skill area?
I wouldn't say so.
Well same, which downplay a little bit the year Maru have... coould he have won all these tournament with that level in 2014 or 2015...
4/7 of INno's championships came after the post kespa era as well.
I don't think Maru could have won like this is 2014 or 2015. But I don't think any terran could. The closest anyone came was actually Zest who won three korean events in 2014.
I actually think Maru was mechanically better at points during HotS than he is now. His runs in late 2013/2014 and 2015 were sick but he didn't actually win much, just a slew of ro4 finishes and starleague or two.
On September 08 2018 14:21 Anc13nt wrote: Yeah, I think he'll need to win this GSL and Blizzcon before he converts all of the non-believers.
If Maru wins GSL AND Blizzcon he'd be close but I'd still give Inno a slight advantage.
I think that's insane Not as insane as the Mvp cult but still
If Maru wins Blizzcon and GSL:
Maru 5 Starleagues, Inno 4 Starleagues + 1 second place
Maru 2 weekenders, Inno 4 weekenders, out of which Blizzcon for Maru and IEM Gyeonggi, WCS Season finals and GSL vs the World for Inno were tier 1 weekenders. WESG and IEM Gamescom tier 2 weekenders.
Not to mention that more of Inno's achievements came during the Kespa era.
I don't see how it's insane, seems very close to me. Take Blizzcon away and Inno is undoubtely ahead.
The only difference between the two is that Inno seems to have a lot of haters who try to belittle his achievements but try to be objective for a moment and you'll see that Maru still has a long way to go.
If you look purely at the number of tournaments won, then yeah INno and Maru are close. But that isn't everything. Maru is better in terms of dominance/streaks and consistancy. I don't think INno has even made consecutive ro8s in GSL while Maru might win three in a row.
During the kespa era, they both won two starleagues, and dominated very hard in different seasons. While INno has a few more weekenders, Maru has way more of ro4/finals appearances and was more consistant.
Speaking of being consistent, Maru didn't fall of the map when terran sucked. So many runs of being the only terran in the ro8 etc. At his worst during kespa he was still like the second best terran. None of that can be said for INno.
And Maru was the proleague GOAT, don't forget about that.
In consistency Inno beats Maru for sure. At least 1 premier tournament every year since 2013 while Maru didn't do much in 2014, 2016 or 2017.
And Inno has made in fact consecutive ro8s. 3 in a row in fact (4 if you count the 2013 OSL which was basically the replacement of GSL).
Maru has way more of ro4/final appearances
ro4 yes, but not finals. Excluding the finals they won both players have 2 additional final appearances
On September 08 2018 14:21 Anc13nt wrote: Yeah, I think he'll need to win this GSL and Blizzcon before he converts all of the non-believers.
If Maru wins GSL AND Blizzcon he'd be close but I'd still give Inno a slight advantage.
I think that's insane Not as insane as the Mvp cult but still
If Maru wins Blizzcon and GSL:
Maru 5 Starleagues, Inno 4 Starleagues + 1 second place
Maru 2 weekenders, Inno 4 weekenders, out of which Blizzcon for Maru and IEM Gyeonggi, WCS Season finals and GSL vs the World for Inno were tier 1 weekenders. WESG and IEM Gamescom tier 2 weekenders.
Not to mention that more of Inno's achievements came during the Kespa era.
I don't see how it's insane, seems very close to me. Take Blizzcon away and Inno is undoubtely ahead.
The only difference between the two is that Inno seems to have a lot of haters who try to belittle his achievements but try to be objective for a moment and you'll see that Maru still has a long way to go.
If you look purely at the number of tournaments won, then yeah INno and Maru are close. But that isn't everything. Maru is better in terms of dominance/streaks and consistancy. I don't think INno has even made consecutive ro8s in GSL while Maru might win three in a row.
During the kespa era, they both won two starleagues, and dominated very hard in different seasons. While INno has a few more weekenders, Maru has way more of ro4/finals appearances and was more consistant.
Speaking of being consistent, Maru didn't fall of the map when terran sucked. So many runs of being the only terran in the ro8 etc. At his worst during kespa he was still like the second best terran. None of that can be said for INno.
And Maru was the proleague GOAT, don't forget about that.
In consistency Inno beats Maru for sure. At least 1 premier tournament every year since 2013 while Maru didn't do much in 2014, 2016 or 2017.
And Inno has made in fact consecutive ro8s. 3 in a row in fact (4 if you count the 2013 OSL which was basically the replacement of GSL).
My mistake, I forget because some of them were in WoL. But still, INno only made consecutive ro8s once in 2013. Maru has done that countless times, even in seasons where there are no other terrans to be seen.
Winning one tournament a year while flopping in between is not consistant. INno was underwhelming from late 2013 through most of 2014 until he won GSL at the end. 2015 was kinda average until (again) he won GSL at the end. 2016 he was not worth talking about until he won IEM in december. All of those wins came after some patch or change that made terran more dominant as well.
Maru on the other hand made ro8/ro4/finals almost every season in korea (literally except one) from when he broke out in 2013 up till 2016. He was never worse than the second best terran.
INno is great a lot of things, and there are plenty of arguments to be made that he's one of the GOATS. But consistancy is not one them. Consistancy accross years/expansions maybe, but not season by season. During the kespa era he was basically patch dependant, that alone puts Maru ahead of him in my eyes.
Oh no, not the "Inno is patch-dependant" narrative again. If you try hard enough you can say this about any player.
Maru's first OSL win came in a terran favored meta when nobody knew how to deal with widowmines. In 2015 he won SSL in a TvT finals (as the other races still struggled with the widow-mine re-buff) This year after the MSC removal he won the first GSL then when Protoss figured out how to defend without the MSC the Marauder got buffed which Maru abuses to the maximum.
Maru isn't any less of a "Patch-terran" than Inno. He just doesn't have so many haters that try go belittle his achievements.
Oh and Inno also made consecutive ro8s in 2014 season 3 to 2015 season 1.
If uThermal or Lambo lose today it'd make tomorrow so much more heartbreaking. Scarlett is currently at 9th in WCS rankings. If she had managed to avoid Serral, she would have had a damn good shot at making Blizzcon: 2018 StarCraft II World Championship Series Circuit/Standings
Who knows though, she's beat Serral before, hopefully she can do it again.
Edit: Oops.
Yeah, those games of Maru vs Zest were gross lol. Feels like I'm back in early 2011.
On September 09 2018 16:21 seemsgood wrote: i voted TY for the winner of this season.Jin Air players won wayyyyyyy too much trophies and it needs to be stahped
Never got this logic. You can cheer and support your favorite but seems toxic and salty cheering for someone to lose just because they have won a lot already...they won because they were better.