I mean, people are saying the late game is imbalanced against Tarran, but it only really ends up bad when the Zerg takes a 14 hatch, the Tarran doesn't early expand, and the Zerg just gets a bunch of drones early. Without the extra econ boost, the late game hasn't changed much from before the patch. Sure, roaches are better, but the mid/late game muta ling bling is still the same, add some ultras and whatnot. It's just that since the patch the 14 hatch is safer, and thus Zergs just have a TON more, and thus it's "imbalanced". A 14 hatch shouldn't be standard, something later like a 13 pool 16 hatch or the 11 pool 18 hatch puts you even in the late game, it's just a lot of Zergs like the free advantage late game.
Koreans React to GSL Ro8 - Page 23
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
I mean, people are saying the late game is imbalanced against Tarran, but it only really ends up bad when the Zerg takes a 14 hatch, the Tarran doesn't early expand, and the Zerg just gets a bunch of drones early. Without the extra econ boost, the late game hasn't changed much from before the patch. Sure, roaches are better, but the mid/late game muta ling bling is still the same, add some ultras and whatnot. It's just that since the patch the 14 hatch is safer, and thus Zergs just have a TON more, and thus it's "imbalanced". A 14 hatch shouldn't be standard, something later like a 13 pool 16 hatch or the 11 pool 18 hatch puts you even in the late game, it's just a lot of Zergs like the free advantage late game. | ||
taintmachine
United States431 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:20 Fission wrote: I can't believe people expect players who are in a major tournament to use anything but the strongest strategies available to them. If the marine pressure is unbeatable, then it should be the focus of attention. If the marine pressure is beatable, then why is everybody angry at Rain? Fans are clingy complaining dipshits who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices the happier you will be for it. - yahtzee | ||
jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
2. barrack nerfed 3. bunker nerfed 4. ???? nerfed it sure is difficult to balance terran :/ | ||
LancerStarcraft
United States235 Posts
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Airfan
Germany73 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25941 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:45 rackdude wrote: I can't blame him for what he did. A 14/15 hatch is kind of an economic cheese like a 15 nexus was in BW. I mean, it may be tough for BW players to say so, but with queens the hatch first isn't as necessary. And if you do get it early, with two queen the advantage you get just snowballs. The Tarran is then forced to counter cheese by 2raxing or taking a quick expansion. The quick expansions haven't been explored too much and I'd like to see more, but I can see that most Tarrans are not just going to put up with the quick expo. I mean, people are saying the late game is imbalanced against Tarran, but it only really ends up bad when the Zerg takes a 14 hatch, the Tarran doesn't early expand, and the Zerg just gets a bunch of drones early. Without the extra econ boost, the late game hasn't changed much from before the patch. Sure, roaches are better, but the mid/late game muta ling bling is still the same, add some ultras and whatnot. It's just that since the patch the 14 hatch is safer, and thus Zergs just have a TON more, and thus it's "imbalanced". A 14 hatch shouldn't be standard, something later like a 13 pool 16 hatch or the 11 pool 18 hatch puts you even in the late game, it's just a lot of Zergs like the free advantage late game. This is so entirely wrong it's actually pretty absurd. | ||
dabom88
United States3483 Posts
1. NesTea goes 14 Hatch every time. Rain wins his 3 games in the Bo5 series by doing 2-Rax All-Ins. 2. 2-Rax was developed in order to straight-up counter 14 Hatch builds, or at least put pressure on them. Due to the prevalence of 2-Rax being fairly dominant against 14 Hatch, 14 Hatch is seen as being economical/greedy and actually deserves to be punished by 2-Rax aggression. People say Nestea was foolish to go 14 Hatch every time and not adapt his play at all when 2-Rax is so prominent and dominant against it. 3. However, players like Idra and Ret say that 14 Hatch is really the best build against 2-Rax due to the larvae production capabilities. I'm sure a lot of people feel this though: As much they respect players like Idra and Ret and recognize their skill, they are more inclined to be convinced by games they can actually see instead of just "reasoning". The main reason people aren't seeing how the argument of "14 hatch is actually safer/best against 2 Rax" is because people haven't seen many attempts to do otherwise in high-profile matches. People see Zergs doing the 14 Hatch opening nearly every game; people see Zergs LOSE with that 14 Hatch opening nearly every game. And the viewers don't see any attempt to change that even after seeing so many Zergs lose to 2 Rax with 14 Hatch when they believe there are alternative openings. If people see more high-profile matches (NOT just replays from practice games, even if it is from Pro Players) where they can clearly see the reasoning behind the argument that there aren't any better alternatives against 2-Rax than 14 Hatch, people may be more inclined to believe that 14 hatch is the best opener. But until there are more games to compare 14 Hatch with, there are a lot MORE games to reference as examples of why 14 Hatching FAILS against 2-Rax, leading more people to think that 14-Hatch isn't the best opener. I'm in this group of people. I recognize the skill of pro Zerg players. And I can see the reasoning behind the argument of "14 Hatch is safest/best against 2-Rax". I see how it COULD be true. But until I see more non-14 Hatch builds vs. 2-Rax and see how they compare in viability, I don't think it's hard to see why I would be more convinced of the argument that 14 Hatch ISN'T the best opener against 2-Rax. | ||
Barundar
Denmark1582 Posts
Please manner up. <-- Hurt fanboi | ||
Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
I agree that the 2 first Rains wins were a bit cheesy/all-inny, but the last game was very legit gameplay. Early preassure into expansion. I knew IMNesTea was going to lose, because Terrans SCVs could mine in peace while IMNesTea had to use his for defense. While it may have been "boring" to watch, going for an all-in is a viable way to win the game. | ||
Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
He really didn't *need* to hatch first every game, especially after Rain showed he was willing and able to do the marine SCV all-in. Also to all the Rain haters out there imagine you're up against a player who you just can't beat in the late game but who keeps using vulnerable economic openers. Add to this the fact that winning this series alone secures you an extra 5000 dollars and opportunity for 30 or even 80k. You can't knock the guy at all for doing whatever it takes to win (that is in the rules). The real lesson we learn from the unfortunately crappy games is that Z can't always hatch first and survive early cheese (obviously).This doesn't require any rebalancing of ZvT even. Try going hatch first against 8 pool or proxy 2-gate. I don't know why so many top players insist on this. We saw July and FD go pool first each time and be very safe moving into the midgame. If NesTea sensed he is a superior macro player then he should have safely set up a macro game instead of being greedy. Moral of the story: Not Rain's fault. A win is a win is a win. This kind of stuff will naturally happen less and less as Zs learn from NesTea's mistakes in this series | ||
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:47 LancerStarcraft wrote: GSL Zergs should stop going hatch before pool when they know they are going to get 2-rax/4raxed all-ined. this post shows you don't know anything about zerg. I'll explain to why top zergs are hatch firsting still even though there is 2 rax all ins all the time. If you go pool first guess what the terran can do to you? He can push make you cancel your expo (if you didn't make one he'll be even happier) then bunker contain you at the bottom of the ramp. Then the terran throws down his expo before the zerg can remake/start his if he goes pool first. So that means zerg is already incredibly behind as we all know terran getting his natural before a zerg is super bad for zerg. Also if you go hatch first you get more larva which = more zerglings when the push comes so you can defend. Nestea defended poorly as he should have been able to defend against that like he did against fake boxer. | ||
OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
terran has to do damage in the early game where it's strong so that they are on even footing in the mid game, so yeah, its clearly a design issue with terran being too strong early game but then quickly falling apart zerg have their macro mechanic + able to pump many drones (not really an issue, though) toss have their death ball with critical mass of colossus sure terran has tanks but they are too bad after the nerf to be massed (ala bw tvp) doing all ins as terran is just the most safest thing to do - as ridiculous as that may sound | ||
koolaid1990
831 Posts
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:38 Disastorm wrote: People aren't complaining that he cheesed, they are complaining that the cheese is too strong. Basically blizzard nerfed the reaper cheese and also nerfed the previous scv marine all in by reducing scv hp. Well its still too strong and needs more nerfing. More nerfs are not the answer, you heard it from Artosis himself: "You know they were going to balance Terran in SCBW until July zerg started using the stacked-muta trick that basically balanced the MU" The answer is to put your innovation caps on and make the impossible, possible. | ||
OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:51 koolaid1990 wrote: rofl at all these noobs. pool first is much better than 14 hatch. You have enough drones/lings to live enough to get speedlings. Out of 15 zvt games, 9 terrans did a marine push rush on me, i went pool first, and won all. I always go pool first and have never lost against a marine/scv all in or a marine push in general. The trick is to take out around 4 lings by the time he comes with 1 marine, and dont let the scvs block your ramp, which is really ez prevent. And if he does an scv/marine all in to your 1 base, do what fruitdealer did. Move all your drones to the far end, trap the marines from microing more to the back, and take out the marines with your drones and kill the scvs with your front lings. Watch Fruitdealer vs bitbitprime and ull c what i mean. so you say you are more knowledgeable than idra then? | ||
Silentness
United States2821 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:40 Tuczniak wrote: Rain didnt do anything bad. In fact he did something good. He showed us what is the current state of game. This strategy is undoubtedly boring to watch. If zerg wont find any better way to defend against it, Blizz should make some balance tweaks otherwise it will be the most boring match up. And i would like to say that Jinro is doing great job and showing that Terran dont have to do this all the time. Terrans should just learn to expand and macro. I like this post. It's not Rain's fault or Terran players fault... it's BLIZZARD's FAULT. Zerg mechanics of instant 200/200 army every time they die isn't Terran's fault. It's Blizzard's development team. You can't blame Rain for taking the best chance to win... in the early game where Zerg doesn't have like a thousand expos. If Blizzard wants to entertain us... change the marine's damage output... lower SCVs health... make sunkens or whatever they're called in SC2 do more damage. Can't blame the player for how the game is currently played out. | ||
Nazarid
United States445 Posts
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kidd
United States2848 Posts
Also, the all-in marine/scv rushes aren't impossible to stop, we saw FD do it easily on jungle basin so I'm gonna go ahead and say FD > NesTea. | ||
Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
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DotADeMoN
United States517 Posts
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