There's a reason why a ridiculous amount of TvZ in the GSL this season was early all-in... it's a fact that most Terrans (except hero Jinro and some others) don't want to macro against zerg.
Koreans React to GSL Ro8 - Page 3
Forum Index > SC2 General |
Genome852
United States979 Posts
There's a reason why a ridiculous amount of TvZ in the GSL this season was early all-in... it's a fact that most Terrans (except hero Jinro and some others) don't want to macro against zerg. | ||
Cheeseburgered
United States716 Posts
| ||
Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:28 Maggeus wrote: I stand to my opinion when the match finished : going hatch first in every game on every map cost Nestea the game. 2 rax into 4 rax marines is absolutely unstoppable on some maps if you are going to hatch first, coupled with some SCVs. As Artosis said, going all-in is something every pro do. But what's important is when you do it. Just like when JD goes fast pool against Flash to punish a 14 CC, Rain went for a 2 into 4 rax against a 14 hatch. What's so wrong with that ? Because according to every pro zerg, 14 hatch is the COUNTER (as in, safest opening) to 2 barracks marine pressure -> all-ins. Ret and IdrA both have given their opinion on this, and the simple fact that even fruit and Nes are doing it sees like they agree. | ||
jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
Nestea lost those games his opponent did not do anything out of the ordinary, Nestea did not react properly. Throwing down spines instead of queens would have really helped him but he decided against it and it cost him. | ||
ultramafia
221 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:24 Dayvan wrote: Cheesing is contemptible but legit. The only thing that's sad here is that Rain apologized for trying to win. The fact that he felt obliged to apologize makes me suspicious that players might be playing in certain ways just for showmanship, if anything, which I guess might be alright given that if you play spectator worthy games, your fan base grows and you could potentially make more money. i really think this is the bigger issue. Rather than turning it into a balance poop throwing contest, i'd prefer to address the notion of "his job to win." I'd argue that competitive sports would be non-existent without passionate spectators and just "doing anything to win" is a step backwards for e-sports. Winning of course is the ultimate goal, but i believe many are like me and would rather see our favorite go down in an epic blaze of glory than all in 3 times. I woke up this morning to see fruitdealer do something epic not to see him win in a boring crap match. Rain shouldn't have to apologize to anyone. but at the same time he shouldn't expect to gain fans by executing a very boring strategy. Am i the only one who picks my favorites based on the excitement of there games rather than there W-L Ratio? | ||
Rotodyne
United States2263 Posts
| ||
Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:28 Maggeus wrote: I stand to my opinion when the match finished : going hatch first in every game on every map cost Nestea the game. 2 rax into 4 rax marines is absolutely unstoppable on some maps if you are going to hatch first, coupled with some SCVs. As Artosis said, going all-in is something every pro do. But what's important is when you do it. Just like when JD goes fast pool against Flash to punish a 14 CC, Rain went for a 2 into 4 rax against a 14 hatch. What's so wrong with that ? But an early push beats a macro opening. That's wrong. Zerg should be able to open with their best macro game without any fear of a terran push. Clearly the game is broken because zergs can't safely manage to go for their most economic opening every game. (sarcasm, just in case you didn't understand). Also, like others have said, don't blame Rain for trying to win. One problem here is one which doesn't even need Blizzard intervention. It's called custom maps. Instead of using maps with short rush distances where early pressure/all-ins are easier due to short distances, or where there are choke 'issues' etc, make maps which don't necessarily have these features. Some people seem to think that if you don't 14 hatch as a zerg, you've lost the game. Well, if you do 14 hatch, you've got (from these games) a 60% chance of losing, so maybe now that zergs mostly now how to 14 hatch, they should try and develop other possibilities which might be defensive without killing early econ too much. Or just whine about terran cheese. (Also hopefully the reduced build time bunkers of the PTR won't go through to the final patch, because that would be even more difficult). | ||
Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
| ||
Damaskinos
Germany139 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:08 Brewers wrote: Once the opponent knows what the cheeser is going to do, the game should be favored to who knows what the opponent is going to do. But now, it's certainly not. At least Terran players have very higher chances of winning by cheesing than going into mid-meta games. Who would work unnecessarily harder? Actualy my friend, that's exactly what happens in the most cases when Terrans beat the crap out of 14 Hatch. Many Terrans fail to do so, cause they dont know how to play correctly, how to presure, when to stop. But actualy building an expo before having the defence to do so, is in no regard better than attacking when you dont have an exit strategy if your attack fails. Zergs should stop acting like women, that ignore that passive aggression (yes, the opposite to passive is active, not aggressive) is still aggression. To me 14 hatch seems to be a non attacking cheese. So NesTea is the one who should apologize if anybody should... P.S.: Exaggerating? You should get the point of view P.P.S.: If the early Terran pressure is not defendable by any means, the balance team needs to do it's job | ||
cocosoft
Sweden1068 Posts
To be honest, the only ones to really blame are the Zergs for not defending and/or scouting properly, in other words, you CAN defend all-ins. These words are from a Random player so I can be in both situations | ||
Mohdoo
United States15082 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:32 cocosoft wrote: What? So you blame Blizzard instead? LOL To be honest, the only ones to really blame are the Zergs for not defending and/or scouting properly, in other words, you CAN defend all-ins. These words are from a Random player so I can be in both situations The fact that you play random doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. It means you're probably not bias, but it has no implications that you are even knowledgeable enough to make that judgment. | ||
Seide
United States831 Posts
Hatch first every game. What do you expect? For your opponent to sit there and let your advantage flourish in the midgame? If anything Nestea should be blamed for not adjusting his strat knowing how powerfull such all-ins can be against hatch first. | ||
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:31 Lonyo wrote: But an early push beats a macro opening. That's wrong. Zerg should be able to open with their best macro game without any fear of a terran push. Clearly the game is broken because zergs can't safely manage to go for their most economic opening every game. Also, like others have said, don't blame Rain for trying to win. One problem here is one which doesn't even need Blizzard intervention. It's called custom maps. Instead of using maps with short rush distances where early pressure/all-ins are easier due to short distances, or where there are choke 'issues' etc, make maps which don't necessarily have these features. dont be stupid, the 'best macro opening' is the only chance at beating the build because terran barely has to sacrifice anything to do it. means if you do anything but hatch expand it doesnt matter if you live, you'll never catch up in econ. | ||
Dont Panic
United States194 Posts
| ||
LostWraithSC
United States111 Posts
| ||
Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:32 Mohdoo wrote: All of the cheesy quick-game Terran play has given me little incentive to buy another GSL ticket. Its just not fun to watch. I doubt I will buy a GSL4 ticket for just this reason. Its interesting to see it a few games, but when pulling almost all your SCVs to attack with a bunch of marines becomes "standard", its complete shit. So little diversity, so little excitement. Its not exactly a thrilling unit composition. When going 14 hatch becomes "standard" and can be often countered by SCV/Marine all-in it's complete shit. Why blame the counter and not the original build? | ||
Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:22 Fa1nT wrote: Saying NesTea is ill-prepared for the marine/SCV all in is to say that every zerg that has fallen to it was also unprepared. How many thousands of games do the zergs have to play to figure out how to consistently beat this one strategy that takes little mechanics to pull off? Stop 15 hatching every game. FEs are obviously very stoppable by one-base all ins. If you want to be a progamer and do so purely by playing a macro game, there's a very obvious window of opportunity for your opponent. It's not like it's impossible to scout/react and one-base as a response. | ||
dapierow
Serbia1316 Posts
In T v Z, early all-in marine+SCVs is not too good to watch paying $19.99 per season. Stopped reading after that, seems like you just made the post because your angry you spent 20$ | ||
Maggeus
France277 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:30 Fa1nT wrote: Because according to every pro zerg, 14 hatch is the COUNTER (as in, safest opening) to 2 barracks marine pressure -> all-ins. Ret and IdrA both have given their opinion on this, and the simple fact that even fruit and Nes are doing it sees like they agree. And there are not any zergs left in the GSL. Thinking like that, if even a 14 hatch doesn't work, that just means the game is imbalanced greatly in favor of the Terran. If it's really the best opening, of course ! Maybe they'll find out something better when everything's gonna cool down. (Fruit didn't even 14 hatch a lot, he prefered to one base cheese a lot more.) | ||
CanucksJC
Canada1241 Posts
So, not only are they mad that he knocked out the 'better' player, but because TSL_Rain was trying to acknowledge his fans when he really wasn't. Him lurking on playxp and posting all night long yesterday before his match didn't help either, now he can't even make the excuse that he didn't have time, cuz he clearly had time to go on playxp and post in every thread. | ||
| ||