We understand this is an issue that has led to a lot of opinions. Please remember above all to keep the discussion respectful and on topic.
- This thread is specifically about NaNiwa and GOM and the controversy that occurred between them. It is not about IdrA and Sen in Code S, nor is it about any other players or tournaments. Pleas discuss that here. - This thread is not about the merits of the Blizzard Cup structure, or GOM's foreigner invite system. Please discuss that here. - Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread.
Responsibility for keeping a thread constructive is primarily yours. Please keep that in mind.
What Happened?: In the second group of the Blizzard Cup, NaNiwa and NesTea played in the ninth game, each having lost their first three matches. Therefore, both were eliminated from the tournament and could not advance. NaNiwa was unhappy about having to play a meaningless game after having lost all of his previous games, and apparently requested that he be allowed to forfeit the match. His request was denied, and was forced to play the match. Immediately upon loading the map, NaNiwa a-moved his first six probes to NesTea's base, and then removed his hand from the keyboard and watched as his probes all died to NesTea's drones, after which he gg'd and left the game.
What was the initial drama yesterday? (Tuesday, December 13): Many starcraft fans had strong reactions to NaNiwa's actions. But the reaction was strongest and most negative among the Korean community. Below are listed a representative sample of reactions:
What is the new drama today? (Wednesday, December 14): In response to the controversy, GOM decided to go back on their original plans to invite NaNiwa into Code S for GSL January. There is still some misunderstanding about whether NaNiwa was going to be invited on his own merits, or whether it was part of the league exchange program with MLG. This is what we believe the situation to be:
1) Due to LXP agreement, Naniwa earned a Blizzard Cup spot. 2) 2012 had a format change, where GOM had two "code s seed" spots that they were going to use as invites instead of a direct MLG seed like the 2011 season. Due to this format change, Naniwa was probably going to be given one of these code s seed invites instead of getting that direct MLG seed 3) Since they were spots they were going to use as invites, they saw yesterday's games and revoked that invitation explaining that it's an invitation.
Mr.Chae from GOM had this to say: (thanks to NHY for this).
프 로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not the Swedish youth Johan Lucchesi who plays the game well."
Because NaNiwa will now not be playing in Code S, the two foreign Code S invites for January have been announced to be Sen and IdrA.
Reaction to this punishment was immediate and widespread. Listed below are a representative sample of opinions.
Many arguments have been made in the course of this controversy, regarding who was at fault and how the situation came about, what actions were justified, and so on. For a detailed rehash of the major arguments, please read this recap (Thanks ehMove)
Latest developments: In response to the controversy, Quantic and NaNiwa released an apology. and GOM has released an official announcement clarifying their positions.
Summary: Quantic and NaNiwa express their regret for what occurred, NaNi will stay in Korea but take GSL January off. GOM addresses that they did not deny NaNiwa a Code S spot that he had earned, but rather declined to consider him for the spot given his recent actions.
On December 15 2011 06:39 tree.hugger wrote: Latest developments: In response to the controversy, Quantic and NaNiwa released an apology. and GOM has released an official announcement clarifying their positions.
I'm pretty satisfied with the responses from all parties here. It was a pretty ugly situation and I think most people managed to come out of this reasonably alright.
If anything it shows that GOM is running a flawed tournament system and rather than punish Naniwa for it, they should just learn from their mistake and not use the system in future. Thus avoiding this situation arising again.
Interestingly enough GOM are now making things up to save face, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official MLG website says he earned a code S spot.
In my opinion, GOM are getting quite desperate to save face here. First they tried to play the "he broke a rule card", but as people realized he didn't break any rules. So now they are trying the "Well, he didn't break any rules, but he wasn't even invited to begin with, so it is no penalty.", card. Obviously, this doesn't work very well when it has already been announced that he has earned a spot.
Good idea, maybe we should make this thread the hub of discussion and close all the other independent threads? We don't need like 5 threads about the same thing mucking up the general forum. All I want to do is browse interesting topics in general but all I see are threads about Naniwa. Thanks!
On December 15 2011 06:51 Paladia wrote: Interestingly enough GOM are now making things up to save face, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official MLG website says he earned a code S spot.
Haven't been following SC2 much, but IMO GOM made the right decision. Throwing a game simply because winning it wont win you glory or prizes is unprofessional for an athlete in any sport. You are not only playing for yourself, you have an audience to entertain
On December 15 2011 06:51 Paladia wrote: Interestingly enough GOM are now making things up to save face, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official MLG website says he earned a code S spot.
Regardless of who's fault this whole drama is, people should just get over it, and stop hating. GOM is at fault for making a mistake, but they've done so much good for eSports then anyone else in this entire forum has done, Nani made a mistake for causing all this needless drama, and it's utterly stupid that people are attacking Korean culture in general for all of this.
I say who cares, eSports drama always starts because of something stupid, and it blows up because people feel the need to speak their mind on an issue all the time.
On December 15 2011 06:51 Paladia wrote: Interestingly enough GOM are now making things up to save face, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official MLG website says he earned a code S spot.
If there's one thing this entire debacle has shown me, it's that TLers love to jump to conclusions and go off of what they think they know. Continuously throughout the Naniwa incident, people's assumptions have been disproved as new information comes to light.
How do you know GomTV is making things up?
Maybe MLG made a mistake?
In fact, if you were keeping up with the latest developments, MLG_Lee stated TODAY that MLG was investigating the matter. MLG has yet to release their statement on this issue so let's refrain from making up stuff that may not be true.
Just one thing. Being unprofessional in a normal work place could get you fired too. I'm not sure if colleges say that they will not accept you after you have been accepted due to ill behavior etc, but there are cases if you throw your last semester in high school they do not accept you. (in the states)
Oh thank god. Been out of the city the past two weeks and missed everything. When I looked at the recap of group b day one all they had was "9. Nestea > Naniwa: Yeah, whatever." Which doesn't help. At all. Thank you very much tree.hugger.
The only Part that we need now, is to know from the MLG side, wether there was an agreement, that there is no GSL Code S seed for providence results. Until then every fuckin spoiled brat around here, should shut up and let the facts speak for themselves!
On December 15 2011 07:01 Colyo wrote: vast vast vast over reaction on GOM's part, IMO. the public anger is enough; taking away his code S spot is overkill.
Read the OP first. According to Gom, Naniwa never had a Code S Spot to begin with.
On December 15 2011 06:51 Paladia wrote: Interestingly enough GOM are now making things up to save face, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official MLG website says he earned a code S spot.
If there's one thing this entire debacle has shown me, it's that TLers love to jump to conclusions and go off of what they think they know. Continuously throughout the Naniwa incident, people's assumptions have been disproved as new information comes to light.
How do you know GomTV is making things up?
Maybe MLG made a mistake?
In fact, if you were keeping up with the latest developments, MLG_Lee stated TODAY that MLG was investigating the matter. MLG has yet to release their statement on this issue so let's refrain from making up stuff that may not be true.
So you are saying that the official GOM partner that handles out the foreign Code S spots made a mistake when they gave out the spot, which they publically announced two months ago, and GOM didn't notice until now? It's not even possible that something like that could happen. And even if it did happen, it is hardly the player who should take the fall for it.
On December 15 2011 06:53 fantomex wrote: Thank you OT for actually describing what happened, which none of the TL front page stories or statements by related parties bothered to do.
TL.net is very poorly designed site. You guys have no business criticizing the MLG site (although MLG is still worse).
I don't how you manage to be completely inaccessible to casual fans over a period of years. E-Sports needs better.
You may want to present any criticisms you have with correct grammar if you want them to be taken seriously.
To avoid further fallacious discussion: I think Naniwa's decision to throw his game was immature and disrespectful. I think GOM's decision to revoke his seed for January was fair - I'm sure quite a few would have wanted a permanent ban, but I think their decision was best for all the parties involved.
I hope this incident can be used positively so in future pro-gamers can remember that they need to remain professional and respectful at all times.
On December 15 2011 07:01 Colyo wrote: vast vast vast over reaction on GOM's part, IMO. the public anger is enough; taking away his code S spot is overkill.
Read the OP first. According to Gom, Naniwa never had a Code S Spot to begin with.
Anyone who seriously thinks Naniwa wouldn't have got Code S without this incident is insanely dumb.
On December 15 2011 07:11 jib117 wrote: So is he playing in the code S or is he not. Still unsure
No he's not playing code S in January, he was in consideration for invite, but they took invitation away for that season. It means he's going to have to qualify through preliminaries like everyone else. TOugh road ahead. I hope Jinro fucking makes it through next January and that Boxer can get through up and down.
I don't get this "If you don't care about your fans you are not professional"-act. It's all about results and how to win. Not get distracted by random people. I am huge fan to Naniwa and he does both (care about winning very much and fans, doing emotions to the audience, a lot of interviews etc). But he care very much as said, about the game.
But to be honest I don't get this obsession with esport players personalities ...I mean, who the hell care that much? Just play the game how it's meant to be. Sure it's fun, but not like we need them to be faking a match to play each other etc if it's not real.
On December 15 2011 06:51 Paladia wrote: Interestingly enough GOM are now making things up to save face, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official MLG website says he earned a code S spot.
If there's one thing this entire debacle has shown me, it's that TLers love to jump to conclusions and go off of what they think they know. Continuously throughout the Naniwa incident, people's assumptions have been disproved as new information comes to light.
How do you know GomTV is making things up?
Maybe MLG made a mistake?
In fact, if you were keeping up with the latest developments, MLG_Lee stated TODAY that MLG was investigating the matter. MLG has yet to release their statement on this issue so let's refrain from making up stuff that may not be true.
So you are saying that the official GOM partner that handles out the foreign Code S spots made a mistake when they gave out the spot, which they publically announced two months ago, and GOM didn't notice until now? It's not even possible that something like that could happen. And even if it did happen, it is hardly the player who should take the fall for it.
No, I'm saying that you don't know the real story and neither do I. There's two parties who know the full story: MLG and GomTV. While MLG stated that Naniwa earned a Code S spot, Gom states otherwise. In response, MLG says they are looking into the matter. Yet, you assume that MLG is right and that Gom is making stuff up.
My point had NOTHING to do with GomTV or MLG. It had to do with TLers talking about stuff that they really don't know anything about. You are the prime example of why a simple misunderstanding has escalated into 300+ pages of nonsense on the forums.
Wow, GOM really needs to adress this issue. And no, their "we changed the tournament system without telling anyone"-explanation in their announcement doesn't cut it.
i never saw a professional sportsmatch where something like this happened. there are even televised firendly matches in football..... i watch em sometimes.
and i guess thats why koreans are so much more angry.
We still see it much more as hobby... not a real profession like they do.
The main problem I have is that Naniwa chose to do the probe rush and went afk. He could've done any cheese or any 1 base build half-ass-edly and I doubt any fo this would've happened. No matter how meaningless the match is, it is not right to do that. His lack of professionism is pretty apparent and by pulling this stunt, he is insulting his opponent, the tournament, and the fans.
Looks like we know have a new controversy regarding Code S spots.......
Now there are three additional threads, this one, GOMTV's and Naniwa's apology... Soon we'll need a subforum for this topic alone. Good work Tree Hugger, it's just unfortunate that the two links that the end of the OP funnel people into two more threads.
Wow, GOM really needs to adress this issue. And no, their "we changed the tournament system without telling anyone"-explanation in their announcement doesn't cut it.
Wow, GOM really needs to adress this issue. And no, their "we changed the tournament system without telling anyone"-explanation in their announcement doesn't cut it.
I agree completely.
GOM did release the graph with international seeds a long time ago, just didn't explain it. People guessed it would be MLG seeds. But note what Waxangel wrote about it:
"The Up-Down Seeds of Mystery
In professional athletics, a rule is sometimes named after a player who had a key part to play in its creation. For instance, in NBA, a new salary rule was once made so that the Boston Celtics could keep their iconic hero Larry Bird, and this rule became known as the "Bird Exception." Similarly, we might come to call the two direct foreigner seeds into the Up-Down Matches the "Idra Seeds."
Though it's not exactly public policy, GomTV has been pretty transparent over the years about their desire to get stars at all costs. Well then, who's a bigger star than Idra? Considering that they pull a considerable amount of revenue from foreign subscriptions, you can't blame them for seemingly creating this rule solely for the soon-back-in-Korea Grack Fields. Mr.Chae has wanted Idra back in GSL from the moment he left (at a chance run-in at the Columbus airport, "so when are you coming back to Korea?" was one of the first things he asked him), and now that he's there, it's time to rush him back into Code-S.
So now that I'm 99% sure that Idra holds the first seed, the question is who gets the other? It seems kind of strange to give DeMuslim a spot, when the more proven Sase and Naniwa are stuck with ordinary old Code-A seeds. There's no one else in Korea who immediately seems like a good fit, but the Up-Down Matches are over a month away. By that time, who knows what worthy foreigner challengers could be in Korea?"
Note, these seeds aren't described as "do X and get seed", but rather they are flexible slots to insert foreign players that do not/cannot runt he gauntlet that is Korean laddering->Code B-> Code A.
Edit: Before anyone says that I mixed up seeds, there are three ambiguous "seeds" in the graph: code A, up and downs and Code S.
Anyone going on a crusade against GOM because of their choice of actions in this incident is quite silly. They have to do this, both from a business and a philosophy/cultural standpoint. GOM has handled it very well in my eyes. Nani did a stupid mistake, but it's not the whole world, and I don't feel like the punishment is too harsh.
On December 15 2011 08:00 pAzand wrote: Okey, it's bugging me that twitter doesn't work, what did Jinro say?
LorangerChris Chris Loranger @ @LiquidJinro ahh ok just 1 season wat are ur thoughts pumpkin 12 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply in reply to @LorangerChris ↑
@LiquidJinro Jonathan Walsh @LorangerChris Too much. He should pay a fine/deduction of winnings, not this. 12 hours ago via web
out of all this, i feel bad for quantic gaming. I feel kinda bad that they get some bad press from this. I am a bit curious what Naniwa will do now though. With the MLG format change as well, how will he try and qualify for the GSL now?
On December 15 2011 08:14 hesho89 wrote: out of all this, i feel bad for quantic gaming. I feel kinda bad that they get some bad press from this. I am a bit curious what Naniwa will do now though. With the MLG format change as well, how will he try and qualify for the GSL now?
through the standard qualifications like every other person in korea, i imagine.
well there is one good point about all of it. Now they have to show all games in their team league x3. Since 5/0 doesn't mean its over, all games need to be played so the viewer aren't offended. And I hope they will make sure to jump Naniwa and calm him down (his team now), when he is on tilt again. It makes him train really hard, but in tournaments its his biggest weakness imo.
On December 15 2011 08:25 Tehs Tehklz wrote: I think the punishment fits perfectly. Naniwa didn't want to compete in GOM's tournament. Now, he doesn't have to.
Why are you so ignorant? He stopped competing in the tournament after he was knocked out of it prior to the controversial match.
Korea takes Starcraft more seriously than anyone else in the world. And by alot too. I am a HUGE NaNiWa fan but because he didn't wanna play his last game, meaningless or not, he decided to act like a child. Very disrespectful to himself, Nestea, the GSL and korean Starcraft in general. Punishment is severe but necessary. Sorry NaNiWa but if you do not wanna act like you want to be there getting the most out of your games vs. high level korean players, then you simply do no deserve to be there. Good luck to Idra and Sen in GSL January. Foreigners fighting!
Overreaction by GOM IMO. Started out with Naniwa acting childish when things didn't go his way and now GOM is responding in suit and throwing the toys out of the pram. Take a fine out of his winnings or something but randomly changing rules for a different event and handing out arbitrary punishment seems kinda..weird.
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence.
Gom, why are you making this up?
1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it still say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize.
I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
Nani: "Even if I win Blizzard Cup nothing will change. I think prestige is important but in my opinion Code S is the most prestigious tournament in the world. So I want to continue challenge myself in Code S."
What was the interviewer thinking after a response like that? No one in the GOM studio cared to correct him by saying that he wasn't in code S yet but that he was in the running for a spot with other foreigners?
I think that GOM was lying, they had opportunities to claim otherwise about the code S spot in question when all different types of media announced that nani had earned it, including one of the two parties involved with the exchange program (MLG). I think it was easier for them to say people had the wrong impression that naniwa got a code S spot (I mean how could someone have the right impression when all sorts of media stated otherwise?) than to say he was kicked out of code S.
On December 15 2011 06:53 fantomex wrote: Thank you OT for actually describing what happened, which none of the TL front page stories or statements by related parties bothered to do.
TL.net is very poorly designed site. You guys have no business criticizing the MLG site (although MLG is still worse).
I don't how you manage to be completely inaccessible to casual fans over a period of years. E-Sports needs better.
You may want to present any criticisms you have with correct grammar if you want them to be taken seriously.
To avoid further fallacious discussion: I think Naniwa's decision to throw his game was immature and disrespectful. I think GOM's decision to revoke his seed for January was fair - I'm sure quite a few would have wanted a permanent ban, but I think their decision was best for all the parties involved.
I hope this incident can be used positively so in future pro-gamers can remember that they need to remain professional and respectful at all times.
Nice grammar dude. You are totally taken seriously.
On December 15 2011 08:25 Tehs Tehklz wrote: I think the punishment fits perfectly. Naniwa didn't want to compete in GOM's tournament. Now, he doesn't have to.
Why are you so ignorant? He stopped competing in the tournament after he was knocked out of it prior to the controversial match.
The tournament format dictated that he had one more match. The fact that he could not advance was a him problem, not a GOM problem.
On December 15 2011 08:40 SC2NeCro wrote: I honestly hope people who support GOM reconsider their stance after reading this:
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence.
Gom, why are you making this up?
1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it still say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize.
I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
It really is pretty ugly. Further proof:
On December 15 2011 08:09 illsick wrote: and something that is strange is also this:
Nani: "Even if I win Blizzard Cup nothing will change. I think prestige is important but in my opinion Code S is the most prestigious tournament in the world. So I want to continue challenge myself in Code S."
What was the interviewer thinking after a response like that? No one in the GOM studio cared to correct him by saying that he wasn't in code S yet but that he was in the running for a spot with other foreigners?
I think that GOM was lying, they had opportunities to claim otherwise about the code S spot in question when all different types of media announced that nani had earned it, including one of the two parties involved with the exchange program (MLG). I think it was easier for them to say people had the wrong impression that naniwa got a code S spot (I mean how could someone have the right impression when all sorts of media stated otherwise?) than to say he was kicked out of code S.
The thing is, I think kicking him out of Code S would have been perfectly acceptable. In my opinion, what Naniwa did was worse than what Rain did and Rain got a worse punishment. If I was running things over at GOM, I would have banned him for one season, at least.
Throwing a match is just not acceptable behavior, not for any reason.
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence.
Gom, why are you making this up?
1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it still say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize.
I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
It really is pretty ugly. Further proof:
On December 15 2011 08:09 illsick wrote: and something that is strange is also this:
Nani: "Even if I win Blizzard Cup nothing will change. I think prestige is important but in my opinion Code S is the most prestigious tournament in the world. So I want to continue challenge myself in Code S."
What was the interviewer thinking after a response like that? No one in the GOM studio cared to correct him by saying that he wasn't in code S yet but that he was in the running for a spot with other foreigners?
I think that GOM was lying, they had opportunities to claim otherwise about the code S spot in question when all different types of media announced that nani had earned it, including one of the two parties involved with the exchange program (MLG). I think it was easier for them to say people had the wrong impression that naniwa got a code S spot (I mean how could someone have the right impression when all sorts of media stated otherwise?) than to say he was kicked out of code S.
Thank you for this...I am pretty shocked that they would go back on a promise THAT EVERYONE knew about. and now they are making stealth changes to their original statement months back. lmao.
On December 15 2011 08:40 SC2NeCro wrote: I honestly hope people who support GOM reconsider their stance after reading this:
On December 15 2011 08:23 m0ck wrote:
On December 15 2011 08:19 Paladia wrote:
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence.
Gom, why are you making this up?
1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it still say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize.
I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
It really is pretty ugly. Further proof:
On December 15 2011 08:09 illsick wrote: and something that is strange is also this:
Nani: "Even if I win Blizzard Cup nothing will change. I think prestige is important but in my opinion Code S is the most prestigious tournament in the world. So I want to continue challenge myself in Code S."
What was the interviewer thinking after a response like that? No one in the GOM studio cared to correct him by saying that he wasn't in code S yet but that he was in the running for a spot with other foreigners?
I think that GOM was lying, they had opportunities to claim otherwise about the code S spot in question when all different types of media announced that nani had earned it, including one of the two parties involved with the exchange program (MLG). I think it was easier for them to say people had the wrong impression that naniwa got a code S spot (I mean how could someone have the right impression when all sorts of media stated otherwise?) than to say he was kicked out of code S.
Thank you for this...I am pretty shocked that they would go back on a promise THAT EVERYONE knew about. and now they are making stealth changes to their original statement months back. lmao.
Yeah they are hurting themself more with this shit tbh..
My thoughts: 1: Naniwa is just a dick. 2: GOM is right 3: I would love to hear John the Translator's opinion. 4: Fuck yeah SEN! 5: Next NesTea vs Naniwa match is gonna be Awesome.
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence.
Gom, why are you making this up?
1. Why were the two seeds called "INTERNATIONAL SEED" and the other one "MLG PROVIDENCE CODE S SEED" on your official website (which you in stealth changed today)? 2. Why did your own twitter comment say that you revoked his Code S seed (which you also, deleted today)? 3. Why was it announced on your official partners website that Naniwa has .. earned a seat in Code S? 4. And why does it still say on your official website when you announced the partner program still (not had time to change that one yet, had you?) say that:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
What you are doing right now is much much worse than what Naniwa could ever do or any player has ever done in the history of Starcraft 2. You are falsely removing the prize of a tournament several months after the tournament has happened and trying to delete all evidence of it. This is worse than those tournaments who don't pay the prize money, as at least they acknowledge the fact that there is a prize.
I really expected that your so called "honor" would be more than this. Removing one of the major prizes of a tournament, lying, deleting threads, in secret altering your own statements, I think all GomTV has built up was just thrown down the drain and I honestly wish that no player would ever have anything more to do with you. I don't see how you dare talk about "honor" or professionalism.
What?
This is the only announcement gom ever made official:
in terms of their format, this has always been how it looked, there never was a "PROVIDENCE SEED" put on there. Stop spreading propoganda about GOM ninja'ing their own stuff, they never needed to make a change to this file. I have it on my desktop to try to create a better format of it to explain it when they first announced this back in october or whatever. They haven't changed shit. I don't recall their twitter stating they "banned" him either, it was a mistranslation... jeezus christ.
This is a reply to that post. I do not know which one is correct. As I said before, I do not really care, either, as banning would be fine by me. Though, I think that discussion is supposed to stay in that thread, as per the little thingy at the top of this thread.
"It is true that NaNiWa has not taken actions that break any explicit rules, like for example using a cheat to gain an unfair advantage. NaNiWa has however purposefully not tried his best and shown this in a disrespectful manner"
Massive backtrack from GOM's original statement, "Using abuse behaviour" was I believe their original justification, does this mean they will remove that and find another rule to take action under once it becomes too much of a PR problem again?
On December 15 2011 09:30 Dodgin wrote: Naniwa's comments on Live on Three seem to show he actually does agree with the " pr comment " on the Quantic apology post.
Yeah and he says he is confused with MLG and GOM because MLG said he got code S after providence but GOM never told him that he did. So some huge miscommunication between the two.
It's funny some people think this is too much when basically a "fine" could be covered by just placing in code S. He earned that code S spot? So did Coca (not even in the GSL and in a tournament with no code A spot on the line). You do stupid shit, you get punished, it's how life works. A warning is too good for naniwa at this point. I can't believe people have forgotten all the shit he's gotten away with with "warnings".
On December 15 2011 06:51 Paladia wrote: Interestingly enough GOM are now making things up to save face, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official MLG website says he earned a code S spot.
In my opinion, GOM are getting quite desperate to save face here. First they tried to play the "he broke a rule card", but as people realized he didn't break any rules. So now they are trying the "Well, he didn't break any rules, but he wasn't even invited to begin with, so it is no penalty.", card. Obviously, this doesn't work very well when it has already been announced that he has earned a spot.
No, what you're saying is absolutely wrong. GOM has no reason to justify itself to you, as you can't/did not bother to read in the first place and any further statements would be wasted on an illiterate person/ignored the same way their prior statements have.
Check out the writting, Gom-MLG exchange lasted til December. 2nd place seed was for Blizzard Cup. I'm surprised that GOM gave a second place seed for 2nd place at Providence anyways, I would've thought a 1st place IPL (idra)/1st place NASL (puma) would bring in more viewers. No 2nd place WCG/Dreamhack winner were invited, I guess MLG just got preferential treatment, being GOM's primary partner.
I was happy to see him even at Blizzard Cup, I was then absolutely disappointed by his throw. You do realize that we, the fans, asked for the "meaningless matches" because we never got to see who was better during AoL2? Leenock and Sage were elim'd with 1-2, and fans wanted them to have a chance at 2-2 to show a good record and display their skill comparative to their group.
a) he was paid to deliver four matches and only delivered three b) he played in front of a big audience and thoughtlessly disappointed them
Both comes down to that while the match was not relevant for him it was relevant for other people. He has the fortune to get paid for his beloved hobby which not many people can claim.
Musicians are another example for those people. Imagine a band getting invited to a special show for the best musicians and they don't get the price that they hoped to get but later on they are scheduled to perform live on stage. Nobody would argue that it would be okay if they just mumbled something incomprehensible into the mic and leave the stage because they are disappointed and because that performance can't help them win the Award anymore. And why? Because there are fans who paid money to see them and because the hosts paid them to perform. It would be no surprise if that host decided to put them on the B stage instead of the main stage during the next festivals.
The Naniwa situation is not much different. What he did was pure egoism. He did not think about the fans. He did not think about his employer. And the employer rightfully punished him.
On December 15 2011 06:51 Paladia wrote: Interestingly enough GOM are now making things up to save face, making me lose all respect for them. Naniwa earned a spot in Code S yet now they claim he didn't? Even the official MLG website says he earned a code S spot.
In my opinion, GOM are getting quite desperate to save face here. First they tried to play the "he broke a rule card", but as people realized he didn't break any rules. So now they are trying the "Well, he didn't break any rules, but he wasn't even invited to begin with, so it is no penalty.", card. Obviously, this doesn't work very well when it has already been announced that he has earned a spot.
No, what you're saying is absolutely wrong. GOM has no reason to justify itself to you, as you can't/did not bother to read in the first place and any further statements would be wasted on an illiterate person/ignored the same way their prior statements have.
Check out the writting, Gom-MLG exchange lasted til December. 2nd place seed was for Blizzard Cup. I'm surprised that GOM gave a second place seed for 2nd place at Providence anyways, I would've thought a 1st place IPL (idra)/1st place NASL (puma) would bring in more viewers. No 2nd place WCG/Dreamhack winner were invited, I guess MLG just got preferential treatment, being GOM's primary partner.
I was happy to see him even at Blizzard Cup, I was then absolutely disappointed by his throw. You do realize that we, the fans, asked for the "meaningless matches" because we never got to see who was better during AoL2? Leenock and Sage were elim'd with 1-2, and fans wanted them to have a chance at 2-2 to show a good record and display their skill comparative to their group.
IPL winner was there z.z Korea does not support NASL.
Regardless of whether or not GOM is justified in Naniwa not participating in GSL Code S this up coming season I wish people would stop saying "They decided not to invite Naniwa." That is not what happened. What happened is GOM changed their format and used that as an excuse to renege on the MLG-GSL exchange program. The graphic showing the system isn't really accurate. There should only be one "Code S Seed" and one "MLG Pro Circuit" seed.
On December 15 2011 09:56 Jonoman92 wrote: Regardless of whether or not GOM is justified in Naniwa not participating in GSL Code S this up coming season I wish people would stop saying "They decided not to invite Naniwa." That is not what happened. What happened is GOM changed their format and used that as an excuse to renege on the MLG-GSL exchange program. The graphic showing the system isn't really accurate. There should only be one "Code S Seed" and one "MLG Pro Circuit" seed.
the graphic has been up since late October without change
On December 15 2011 09:45 Fenrax wrote: The Naniwa situation is not much different. What he did was pure egoism. He did not think about the fans. He did not think about his employer. And the employer rightfully punished him.
I'm of the position that GOM is more in the wrong in their severe reaction that Naniwa. I could agree some action should be taken, whether a fine or some sort of reprimand. But this an absolutely huge punishment.
Who cares anymore. Naniwa admitted he was wrong and apologized to the general SC2 community. GOM issued an explanation of the Code S spot. End of drama.
On December 15 2011 09:56 Jonoman92 wrote: Regardless of whether or not GOM is justified in Naniwa not participating in GSL Code S this up coming season I wish people would stop saying "They decided not to invite Naniwa." That is not what happened. What happened is GOM changed their format and used that as an excuse to renege on the MLG-GSL exchange program. The graphic showing the system isn't really accurate. There should only be one "Code S Seed" and one "MLG Pro Circuit" seed.
the graphic has been up since late October without change
I realize that, but it was not clear in the beginning. Despite saying there were 2 Code S seeds, there was actually only one available since one would naturally go to the person who placed highest @ the previous MLG Pro Circuit event who was not Code S already.
On December 15 2011 09:45 Fenrax wrote: The Naniwa situation is not much different. What he did was pure egoism. He did not think about the fans. He did not think about his employer. And the employer rightfully punished him.
I'm of the position that GOM is more in the wrong in their sever reaction that Naniwa. I could agree some action should be taken, whether a fine or some sort of reprimand. But this an absolutely huge punishment.
How is this a huge punishment?? He lost a Code S spot. He's not banned for life. He made a mistake so now he has to requalify again. This gives him another chance to prove his skills. Stop making drama.
On December 15 2011 09:45 Fenrax wrote: The Naniwa situation is not much different. What he did was pure egoism. He did not think about the fans. He did not think about his employer. And the employer rightfully punished him.
I'm of the position that GOM is more in the wrong in their sever reaction that Naniwa. I could agree some action should be taken, whether a fine or some sort of reprimand. But this an absolutely huge punishment.
How is this a huge punishment?? He lost a Code S spot. He's not banned for life. He made a mistake so now he has to requalify again. This gives him another chance to prove his skills. Stop making drama.
going to korea is a huge investment. now they are saying he cant play in code s. so he has to wait a hell of a long time before he has a shot at real money. that is a huge punishment.
On December 15 2011 09:45 Fenrax wrote: The Naniwa situation is not much different. What he did was pure egoism. He did not think about the fans. He did not think about his employer. And the employer rightfully punished him.
I'm of the position that GOM is more in the wrong in their sever reaction that Naniwa. I could agree some action should be taken, whether a fine or some sort of reprimand. But this an absolutely huge punishment.
How is this a huge punishment?? He lost a Code S spot. He's not banned for life. He made a mistake so now he has to requalify again. This gives him another chance to prove his skills. Stop making drama.
I don't understand. If you're this dumb how did you make your way to TL?
Thanks for the summary. As a whole i think their is a lot of behind the scenes garbage that results in my not really wanting to watch naniwa games in more seeing as how he doesn't care that much.
I think GOM's actions will clearly set a precedent for future professional behavior that will set the status quo for all major events. These players need to take what the do seriously because they are no longer just players but also entertainers (I tune in to watch high caliber sc2 games not watch some kid win money). Props to GOM for squashing this.
I think the actions are justified however I feel cheated when MLG plastered all over the stream and broadcast that the winner gets a code S seed when in fact that is not what happens according to GOM. I doubt MLG or GOM is trying to be malicious, however a statement needs to be made in regards to this.
Okay. I see how Naniwa made a childish decision. How GOM basically said if he doesn't want to try then he shouldn't be in the same league as the rest of the people who try hard every day (not saying Naniwa doesn't practice tremendously). But To be able to play on a national stage, with hundreds of thousands of anxiously waiting fans who want nothing more than to see Naniwa vs NesTea, is a tremendous privilege, whether it's GOM, MLG, DreamHack, and what have you.
And if I'm not mistaken, GOM didn't "Ban" Naniwa from GSL, They just rescinded the Invitational spot right? He could still play his way into Code S Again correct?
This is basically just a PR nightmare for everyone sparked from a guy who let his Ego and Pride take over at the wrong time. Regardless of how a tournament operates, If you're able to play a "Game" in front of thousands of people for money and fame, You should be happy to go out there for one night and play for Guts and Glory. Am I right?
Pro Circuit Players Competing in the GSL At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A. At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player. All travel and accommodation expenses for these players will be provided by the GSL.
Leenock won MLG Providence, a 2011 Pro circuit event after MLG Columbus, but already had a Code S spot. Naniwa came 2nd at MLG Providence, a 2011 Pro Circuit event after MLG Columbus, so according to this he would be awarded Code S status for that performance. Now yes Naniwa made a huge HUGE mistake, and acted poorly. I would be happier if GOM came out and said "We took away Naniwa's Code S spot because of his poor behavior" instead of saying "Naniwa was never in Code S in the first place. He only had an opportunity to get Code S from Blizzard Cup." I agree that Naniwa did wrong but I also feel strongly that organizations need to keep their word, and if something like this happens not just pretend that it was some other way around that makes their decision (no Naniwa in Code S) easier.
Pro Circuit Players Competing in the GSL At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A. At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player. All travel and accommodation expenses for these players will be provided by the GSL.
Leenock won MLG Providence, a 2011 Pro circuit event after MLG Columbus, but already had a Code S spot. Naniwa came 2nd at MLG Providence, a 2011 Pro Circuit event after MLG Columbus, so according to this he would be awarded Code S status for that performance. Now yes Naniwa made a huge HUGE mistake, and acted poorly. I would be happier if GOM came out and said "We took away Naniwa's Code S spot because of his poor behavior" instead of saying "Naniwa was never in Code S in the first place. He only had an opportunity to get Code S from Blizzard Cup." I agree that Naniwa did wrong but I also feel strongly that organizations need to keep their word, and if something like this happens not just pretend that it was some other way around that makes their decision (no Naniwa in Code S) easier.
Naniwa said on LO3 that GOM never told him he got a spot while MLG did say he got it. So there is some huge miscommunication going on.
Pro Circuit Players Competing in the GSL At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A. At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. Code A status will be awarded to the next 3 highest placing non-Korean players. If Code S status is awarded to a Korean player, Code A status also will be awarded to the 4th highest placing non-Korean player. All travel and accommodation expenses for these players will be provided by the GSL.
Leenock won MLG Providence, a 2011 Pro circuit event after MLG Columbus, but already had a Code S spot. Naniwa came 2nd at MLG Providence, a 2011 Pro Circuit event after MLG Columbus, so according to this he would be awarded Code S status for that performance. Now yes Naniwa made a huge HUGE mistake, and acted poorly. I would be happier if GOM came out and said "We took away Naniwa's Code S spot because of his poor behavior" instead of saying "Naniwa was never in Code S in the first place. He only had an opportunity to get Code S from Blizzard Cup." I agree that Naniwa did wrong but I also feel strongly that organizations need to keep their word, and if something like this happens not just pretend that it was some other way around that makes their decision (no Naniwa in Code S) easier.
Naniwa said on LO3 that GOM never told him he got a spot while MLG did say he got it. So there is some huge miscommunication going on.
I know Naniwa said that but he is also in pure PR mode and is trying to not see this spiral further and further out of control. He agrees that he did a bad thing, he accepts the punishment he was given, and he does not want this to become a bigger issue than it already is. (At least that is how I see it.) I would really be interested in hearing what MLG has to say about this entire situation.
*EDIT -- wow that got mangled from notepad to here
I feel that game shouldn't have been played. Meaningless group games should be skipped. They did it for AoL, I really don't like watching a showmatch in the middle of a knockout tournament.
Honestly I dont think highly of Naniwa but im on his side on this one. He was paid to play 4 games, he played 4 games. Sure, probe rushing is not the most optimal way to play, but still he played it. As he said, why would anyone want to see a lackluster 4 gate? For me, thats disrespecting the viewer even more, because some fools will actually believe they are seeing a real game. Where do you draw the line? Proxy 2 gate with only a moving? 4 gate with right click suiciding?? I mean honestly, if a player doesnt want to win a game, there wont be a real game and you cant force him to play one - only to pretend.
Thats all not even considering the fact that there was no explicit rule and explicit punishment stated beforehand, which takes away any credibility of GOMs decision imo. With all the shitty matchfixing and stuff that has been going on in the korean scene with minimal / no repercussions (Intentional losing in WCG, splitting prize money and fixing the finals etc..) its just a ridiculous double standard I see in korean esports all too often. They cetrtainly care about good games or professionalism less than I do, they just pretend to and I dont like that. All we get from this incident and how it unfolded is less transparency, more show and bigotry. We already got some of it in form of Naniwas apology. Anyone actually thinking this is Nani feels about it must be out of their minds. He bent over in order to retain his chances of getting into GSL - im pretty certain his personal pov of the situation hasnt changed much at all.
I love that some people are so obsessed with defending foreigners' actions that they make generalizations about Asian culture to the point where the OP actually has to state that no racism will be tolerated in this thread :p
Oh esports. And anyone who claims that there is a huge conspiracy to keep Nani out of Code S is delusional. You know, I would have been more satisfied if GomTV just came out and said that we needed to punish Nani for his actions so we kicked him out. Then people would stop making stuff up.
This recent incident for me has bumped the eSports community to the same level as the college american football community, defending the hell out of someone even though they were clearly in the wrong because you're a fan. Maybe one day we'll upgrade to the professional football community, where we just flame each other for liking different regional teams Oh wait.
edit: and to the above poster; the Korean game organizers does not tolerate game throwing, in fact they have perma-banned players for doing so. It is clearly not accepted. I like how you think that the actions of some bad eggs represent 'korean esports'; who's the bigot here?
Naniwa could have done any number of stupid gimmicks and the next day the game would have been forgotten. The fact he intentionally threw the game like he did is hugely unprofessional, intentionally disrespectful to all other parties involved and too close to match fixing to be acceptable.
Nobody can complain about the punishment. It's a fair warning and he could of got worse.
On December 15 2011 10:32 Pokedude1013 wrote: I love that some people are so obsessed with defending foreigners' actions that they make generalizations about Asian culture to the point where the OP actually has to state that no racism will be tolerated in this thread :p
Oh esports. And anyone who claims that there is a huge conspiracy to keep Nani out of Code S is delusional. You know, I would have been more satisfied if GomTV just came out and said that we needed to punish Nani for his actions so we kicked him out. Then people would stop making stuff up.
This recent incident for me has bumped the eSports community to the same level as the college american football community, defending the hell out of someone even though they were clearly in the wrong because you're a fan. Maybe one day we'll upgrade to the professional football community, where we just flame each other for liking different regional teams Oh wait.
While that is a disclaimer, I am not seeing some giant "there is a conspiracy against Naniwa thing" so much as there is a giant "GOMTV said one thing up to this point, then this happens and the entire story is different and we are to accept that." My biggest problem is GOM denying that Naniwa had already earned a Code S spot after Providence when according to posts on GOMs official site (http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291) there was a framework on how to determine who gets the Code S seed, and Naniwa was the person from that tournament to see all of that.
Before you take a general swipe at the community for being xenophobic, look beyond that for the real issue here which is that yes Naniwa messed up but he did not break any rules directly, and he had a Code S seed that GOM is now saying he never had. I do not think highly of Naniwa right now, but I think that if anything the rules need to be clarified significantly so that actions don't have to have so much smoke and mirrors surrounding them.
1) Nani loses 3 games which hurt him. Slayers Proxy's Thor rush wrecks him. He thinks he's dead as the Thor stomps his FF, thinks he's alive (compounding the pain) after he lasers the 2 thors ("maybe i can get 2 and 2 record--maybe i can advance!", then dies becuz terran units are rubber.
2) Wrecked, he does a probe rush.
3) Community responds.
(kill bill flashback--savior match fixing--)
a) Kors amuse themselves by righteously denouncing nani. Becuz of the match fixing, the fire has tinder. [Really, there is no connection--in fact, nani proves by his honest refusal to play the game that meant nothing he's nothing like savior who pretended to try in games to fool fans-- absolute opposite!!] Kors have fun.
b) Foreigners respond as well. About thirty people honestly care. The rest enjoy the controversy and being contrary [as always, this leads to one side of the debate gaining traction, then the other, and so in without good posts].
4) Gom responds. As is usual in the sc community, they take themselves to seriously. They take Nani's code S spot. That's a philosophically perplexing and profound statement. Y? Becuz apparently Nani never had a code S spot. They took back something he never had. I wonder why they had announce such a thing? So interesting.
If the press releases by MLG and GOM are to be trusted, Nani had the spot.
5) Nann apologizes. He knew people would be angry, but it was so fun to probe rush. The game was worth nothing, and drawing attention to that fact by treating it as such was a way of lashing out at GOM and feeling better. I think Poe wrote a short story about this at some point in time.
Just a miscalculation. He expected people to be angry but powerless to do anything. That would've been cool. Lesson learned, anyway, so he pacifies his team. He talks on skype and they write something nice.
From what I see from the OP, wasn't Naniwa guaranteed a code S spot after providence prior to the format change announcement?
Then GSL did their format change and added two sponsor invites, but due to the mlg-GSL exchange program they were still obligated to get Naniwa his spot. So in effect the first invite, meant to be given on merit, was all but guaranteed to Naniwa. Unfortunately Naniwa had to pull this nonsense and GSL removed his invite.
Honestly, by those standards Stork should be banned from progaming forever.... The more I think of it and various other incidents with koreans intentionally losing and the korean reaction to it, the more I have to wonder if this has anything to do with... gasp.... racism.
On December 15 2011 10:32 Pokedude1013 wrote: I love that some people are so obsessed with defending foreigners' actions that they make generalizations about Asian culture to the point where the OP actually has to state that no racism will be tolerated in this thread :p
Oh esports. And anyone who claims that there is a huge conspiracy to keep Nani out of Code S is delusional. You know, I would have been more satisfied if GomTV just came out and said that we needed to punish Nani for his actions so we kicked him out. Then people would stop making stuff up.
This recent incident for me has bumped the eSports community to the same level as the college american football community, defending the hell out of someone even though they were clearly in the wrong because you're a fan. Maybe one day we'll upgrade to the professional football community, where we just flame each other for liking different regional teams Oh wait.
While that is a disclaimer, I am not seeing some giant "there is a conspiracy against Naniwa thing" so much as there is a giant "GOMTV said one thing up to this point, then this happens and the entire story is different and we are to accept that." My biggest problem is GOM denying that Naniwa had already earned a Code S spot after Providence when according to posts on GOMs official site (http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291) there was a framework on how to determine who gets the Code S seed, and Naniwa was the person from that tournament to see all of that.
Before you take a general swipe at the community for being xenophobic, look beyond that for the real issue here which is that yes Naniwa messed up but he did not break any rules directly, and he had a Code S seed that GOM is now saying he never had. I do not think highly of Naniwa right now, but I think that if anything the rules need to be clarified significantly so that actions don't have to have so much smoke and mirrors surrounding them.
One would think that 'act professional' is an understood rule. Anyone who does not 'act professionally' may be removed from the tournament. Quite simple actually. Throwing a game, regardless of if you think it is pointless or not, is unprofessional
And no, I'm not 'taking a general swipe at the community for being xenophobic' notice how I said 'some people' Here I'll underline it in my quoted post
On December 15 2011 10:32 Pokedude1013 wrote: I love that some people are so obsessed with defending foreigners' actions that they make generalizations about Asian culture to the point where the OP actually has to state that no racism will be tolerated in this thread :p
Oh esports. And anyone who claims that there is a huge conspiracy to keep Nani out of Code S is delusional. You know, I would have been more satisfied if GomTV just came out and said that we needed to punish Nani for his actions so we kicked him out. Then people would stop making stuff up.
This recent incident for me has bumped the eSports community to the same level as the college american football community, defending the hell out of someone even though they were clearly in the wrong because you're a fan. Maybe one day we'll upgrade to the professional football community, where we just flame each other for liking different regional teams Oh wait.
While that is a disclaimer, I am not seeing some giant "there is a conspiracy against Naniwa thing" so much as there is a giant "GOMTV said one thing up to this point, then this happens and the entire story is different and we are to accept that." My biggest problem is GOM denying that Naniwa had already earned a Code S spot after Providence when according to posts on GOMs official site (http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291) there was a framework on how to determine who gets the Code S seed, and Naniwa was the person from that tournament to see all of that.
Before you take a general swipe at the community for being xenophobic, look beyond that for the real issue here which is that yes Naniwa messed up but he did not break any rules directly, and he had a Code S seed that GOM is now saying he never had. I do not think highly of Naniwa right now, but I think that if anything the rules need to be clarified significantly so that actions don't have to have so much smoke and mirrors surrounding them.
One would think that 'act professional' is an understood rule. Anyone who does not 'act professionally' may be removed from the tournament. Quite simple actually. Throwing a game, regardless of if you think it is pointless or not, is unprofessional
And no, I'm not 'taking a general swipe at the community for being xenophobic' notice how I said 'some people' Here I'll underline it in my quoted post
Not to mince words too much but I've taken the liberty to underline where you made sweeping generalizations about the eSports community. So yes you started off with focus, then as you held on that trigger of "Foreigners think Koreans are acting unfairly against a Foreigner" your bullets kinda sprayed out in all directions.
This is not going to be productive back and forth I can tell already, but even then why are you not addressing the entire point that Naniwa already had earned his Code S spot?
*EDIT -- Also if Act Professional was critertia there'd be a LOT of players on both sides who have overstepped that. At GSL and MLG and other events as well. Why is Naniwa being deprived something he earned for actions at a different event that happens to be ran by the same people. More importantly, why are they trying to shift the story to make it appear that he never had it in the first place?
Im totally with Tyler here... What GOMtv did is what we call an emotional reaction, if they really think they are now feared with this move; they lost a hardcore fan. Not that I love Naniwa but with what DoA added as his POV it gets quite controversial.
What, in my opinion, DoA significantly added is that GOMtv director himself was emotionally caught by Naniwa, he(Director of GOMtv) liked him(NaniWa) "more than others?". It's a major mistake to be driven by its own feelings when you're in such position, and nobody can do anything about it, ofcourse.
That is something very important to know, not that my life is at stake, but as Tyler said, again, there was no specific rule about it and I'm sure Naniwa would have thought twice before making this move not knowing it could go this far; eventhough he said the opposite BEFORE gomtv statement.
Basically, it feels like they do whatever they wish to do and nobody can do a thing. Naniwa legally speaking didn't break any rules from what I've read and I'm not here for the sake of arguing this is truly shocking.
On December 15 2011 11:11 ScythedBlade wrote: The hilarious thing is Naniwa requested to do a professional thing: Forfeit the game. But he wasn't allowed ...
So wait, it's something honorable in an Asian culture very near Korea. SO SAY WHAT?
Naniwa himself said he did not ask to forfeit the game, he did not talk to GOM before the Nestea game.
It's worth pointing out that although Gom was giving out code S spots for MLG winners and such, for every event that happened there were also 4 korean invites. You can snip the original announcement all you want but the fact is that for the championship there weren't any invites. This as well as the fact that Gom is restructuring for next year anyways, so you can't really compare what the agreement was SEVEN months ago, that's half of SC2's life right there anyways.
Why is it every time an SC2 player does something unprofessional the entire community flies into a crazed raging tizzy? The drama around here make "The Jersey Shore" look like it features a cast of level headed, well balanced people. Why is this even a big deal?
Nani was really upset, and in his emotional state he forfeited a game. Yes, as it turns out pro gamers aren't perfect humans *gasp*!!!! Nani has apologized, Gom made it clear they weren't kicking him and cleared up all the misunderstandings--so let's move on with our lives.
GOM's decision is a hallmark in the history of competitive gaming. I think that it is perhaps irrelevant whether or not you [we] agree with the ethical nature of the decision regarding it's impact on Naniwa personally. This is a community largely composed of young, untrained people who are learning and practicing how to present their trade to the world. Up until now, there have been very few stringent rules put in place to order the way players present their particular game as a professional craft. GOM is setting a standard here; stop fucking around! There is a strong desire in the fan-base of Starcraft 2 to see the game taken to a high level of public reception. Unfortunately, the youthful identity of the community is uncomfortable with abandoning an aspect of what makes gaming great, that being the casual nature that makes gaming entertaining and filled with expectations for unlimited creativity. We don't have to make a choice between entertainment and professional structure, but we need to reach and agreed upon format for delivering Starcraft 2 from the players, through the media structures, and into our living rooms! GOM simply wants to set a very high expectation that the viewer can expect. When Naniwa becomes an emotional vehicle and distracts the viewer from a standardized expectation of entertainment, hes not just going against GOM's business plan... he's offending the soul of the organizers who are trying so hard to bridge the disconnect between entertainment and professionalism. Ask yourself, do you want to see Naniwa as a child playing a game, or as a professional putting his trade on display? This is an exciting time for video games, we have a possibility for a whole new brand of professional entertainment that incorporates a high degree of player creativity! Its up to us to determine if we want it!
Never liked Nanis attitude. im not surprised he did it. but honestly if you dont want to play the game through and decide to probe rush. the least you can do is mico the fking probes. Im thinking beating neastea with a probe rush would have been quite the achievement...
If I was being honest to myself, this probably isn't that big of a deal in the long run. A GSL season is a month long. Besides, Naniwa didn't earn his Code-S spot in the first place. It was suppose to be given to him. but Naniwa screwed up, and now it's not being given to him. Seems simple.
HOWEVER. This is finals week for university students like me. Hence, my subconscious (just like many people on TL apparently) seems to want to turn this into a big deal as to justify my chronic procrastination. Therefore:
GOMTV THIS IS HORRIBLE HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO THE FOREIGNER COMMUNITY!!!! WE NEED THIS!1!!1!! KESPA 2.0 RAWRAWRAWR!!11! I'LL NEVER BUY A SEASON PASS AGAIN!! AT LEAST NOT UNTIL I REALIZE THAT THIS SEASON INVOLVES IDRA!1!!!ONE!!!
AND NANIWA HOW COULD YOU DISRESPECT ESPORTS IN SUCH A CATASTROPHIC MANNER!11!!! PROBE RUSH!?!?! YOU MIGHT AS WELL JUST CRAP ON BOXER'S FACE!1!!1! THIS IS WORSE THAN SAVIORX87987987!! GOMTV SHOULD HAVE YOUR FINGERS CHOPPED OFF SO YOU CAN NEVER GAME AGAIN!!
I am just watching ex-SKT progamer Dove playing on twitch.tv. He was until just now undefeated on ICCup, which is a brood war equivalent to battle.net. He just lost his first game to an insane cheese where the other guy rushed zealots into dragoons into DTs into arbiters, all of it while Dove was trying to give his best and most entertaining game with a rather unorthodox bio strategy against a protoss opponent. After he lost the very close game he kept saying "I'm sorry" on his stream.
NaNiwa could really learn something from this guy I think. What NaNiwa did wasn't unforgivable or anything, but Dove has just showed me how I think progamers should act.
I am just watching ex-SKT progamer Dove playing on twitch.tv. He was until just now undefeated on ICCup, which is a brood war equivalent to battle.net. He just lost his first game to an insane cheese where the other guy rushed zealots into dragoons into DTs into arbiters, all of it while Dove was trying to give his best and most entertaining game with a rather unorthodox bio strategy against a protoss opponent. After he lost the very close game he kept saying "I'm sorry" on his stream.
NaNiwa could really learn something from this guy I think. What NaNiwa did wasn't unforgivable or anything, but Dove has just showed me how I think progamers should act.
Thank you
Every time I see a programer say "I'm sorry for disappointing my fans" I die a little inside. If they don't mean it they shouldn't feel they have to say it. If they do it's even more messed up.
On December 15 2011 11:24 The Pale King wrote: GOM's decision is a hallmark in the history of competitive gaming. I think that it is perhaps irrelevant whether or not you [we] agree with the ethical nature of the decision regarding it's impact on Naniwa personally. This is a community largely composed of young, untrained people who are learning and practicing how to present their trade to the world. Up until now, there have been very few stringent rules put in place to order the way players present their particular game as a professional craft. GOM is setting a standard here; stop fucking around! There is a strong desire in the fan-base of Starcraft 2 to see the game taken to a high level of public reception. Unfortunately, the youthful identity of the community is uncomfortable with abandoning an aspect of what makes gaming great, that being the casual nature that makes gaming entertaining and filled with expectations for unlimited creativity. We don't have to make a choice between entertainment and professional structure, but we need to reach and agreed upon format for delivering Starcraft 2 from the players, through the media structures, and into our living rooms! GOM simply wants to set a very high expectation that the viewer can expect. When Naniwa becomes an emotional vehicle and distracts the viewer from a standardized expectation of entertainment, hes not just going against GOM's business plan... he's offending the soul of the organizers who are trying so hard to bridge the disconnect between entertainment and professionalism. Ask yourself, do you want to see Naniwa as a child playing a game, or as a professional putting his trade on display? This is an exciting time for video games, we have a possibility for a whole new brand of professional entertainment that incorporates a high degree of player creativity! Its up to us to determine if we want it!
''
This.
I will unashamedly say that I love Starcraft and that one of my greatest wishes is for eSports and Starcraft to be considered a real and accepted mainstream sport. If that is to become a reality, Naniwas behaviour in that game should never be accepted by anyone.
Naniwa has now apologized and even though I hated the fact that he threw the match, I accept his apology because I hope he has learned from something from this experience.
While GOM's decision to take away his Code or whatever wasn't the best. It sets a precedence for how you should conduct yourself as a professional gamer. I also hope that MLG and other turnaments takes note of this and properly punnishes players who blatantly throw games from now on.
Taking away his Code S spot is perfectly fine, the way he threw the match is insulting to the community, and I'm really surprised so many people are defending him. People are giving this lame excuse of "it's just a game," and you would think that after 10 years of brood war and seeing the dedication people put into starcraft they would know better by now.
GOM can go and F themselves as far as I'm concerned. I'm never watching anything they produce again. Way to make an all korean league more Korean favored. I see that the top says it's not about racism but I surely think it is. MVP as a team has lost a my respect as well. I'll boo them out next time they show up in the west.
I think the interview on Live on 3 should be linked to in the OP aswell, it was a very good one. I also was quite touched by it myself, when Naniwa said that he was suprised by Quantic standing behind him, and that "no team before had done so when he had fucked up", now as I often do I decided to read probably more than was intended in it, but I think it's relevant to this that his family also decided to stop standing behind him when he fucked up earlier in life (aka fucked school for wc3). It's easy to see why a person becomes one that simply doesn't see the demands of the world outside of him, if he lacks trust in most people outside himself.
Also, I'm agreeing with Jinro/Tyler etc about the punishment. A punishment was good, but this was to rough. Just like in the ESV tv incident with coca and byun the punishment seem to be a panic reaction from the fans outrage, instead of actually being a premediated punishment coming out of rational though of the action that the player did. Additionally supporting that theory is the fact that they made the announcment that he wasn't getting a code S spot so fast, the leeway they then tried to find in the new format simply seems to be a coverup if you ask me.
Whatever punishment they would have had decided to come to, I would have much prefered if they simply gave a statement that they would consider what action to take. Then after the emotions had went down slightly in a week or two, they could have taken a rational decision. Possibly they'd still feel this was the right one, but at least then one wouldn't have to wonder if it simply was because of emotions or panic of the fans outrage.
On December 15 2011 11:24 The Pale King wrote: GOM's decision is a hallmark in the history of competitive gaming. I think that it is perhaps irrelevant whether or not you [we] agree with the ethical nature of the decision regarding it's impact on Naniwa personally. This is a community largely composed of young, untrained people who are learning and practicing how to present their trade to the world. Up until now, there have been very few stringent rules put in place to order the way players present their particular game as a professional craft. GOM is setting a standard here; stop fucking around! There is a strong desire in the fan-base of Starcraft 2 to see the game taken to a high level of public reception. Unfortunately, the youthful identity of the community is uncomfortable with abandoning an aspect of what makes gaming great, that being the casual nature that makes gaming entertaining and filled with expectations for unlimited creativity. We don't have to make a choice between entertainment and professional structure, but we need to reach and agreed upon format for delivering Starcraft 2 from the players, through the media structures, and into our living rooms! GOM simply wants to set a very high expectation that the viewer can expect. When Naniwa becomes an emotional vehicle and distracts the viewer from a standardized expectation of entertainment, hes not just going against GOM's business plan... he's offending the soul of the organizers who are trying so hard to bridge the disconnect between entertainment and professionalism. Ask yourself, do you want to see Naniwa as a child playing a game, or as a professional putting his trade on display? This is an exciting time for video games, we have a possibility for a whole new brand of professional entertainment that incorporates a high degree of player creativity! Its up to us to determine if we want it!
This is a way to grand way to interpret the decision made by GOM. It's possible that this misstake that happened, that was mainly naniwas fault but slightly gom's as well, gave the sc2 world a good lesson, but not because of how grandly GOM treated the situation by punishing naniwa this hardly. I'd rather then agree with Tyler that the punishment was illogical and irrational (I might be over interpretting Tyler, one can make his own opinion of that in the OP where his text is linked) as there was no actual rule that naniwa broke, so meanwhile what Naniwa did can not be said to be smart or good in anyway, gomtv cannot be said to be good because they punish someone who obviously didn't know they did something that deserved punishment.
Someone else pointed this out, but here's an almost identical situation that happened in Golf, and the guy got banned for 6 months for throwing the game.
I am just watching ex-SKT progamer Dove playing on twitch.tv. He was until just now undefeated on ICCup, which is a brood war equivalent to battle.net. He just lost his first game to an insane cheese where the other guy rushed zealots into dragoons into DTs into arbiters, all of it while Dove was trying to give his best and most entertaining game with a rather unorthodox bio strategy against a protoss opponent. After he lost the very close game he kept saying "I'm sorry" on his stream.
NaNiwa could really learn something from this guy I think. What NaNiwa did wasn't unforgivable or anything, but Dove has just showed me how I think progamers should act.
Thank you
Every time I see a programer say "I'm sorry for disappointing my fans" I die a little inside. If they don't mean it they shouldn't feel they have to say it. If they do it's even more messed up.
they don't have to say it, but at least act accordingly to the rule when participating in tournaments. People have to pay respects to their bosses and customers every day, this is no different, even if you don't care about them
GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.
On December 15 2011 12:55 Robinsa wrote: GOM can go and F themselves as far as I'm concerned. I'm never watching anything they produce again. Way to make an all korean league more Korean favored. I see that the top says it's not about racism but I surely think it is. MVP as a team has lost a my respect as well. I'll boo them out next time they show up in the west.
You're saying the fact that his race wasn't taken into consideration in dealing out his punishment is racist?
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote: GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.
Are you serious? I can say definitively that you clearly do not follow the NBA in any way shape or form. Almost every lottery (non-playoff) team egregiously tanks at the end of every NBA season. It's so routine that NBA fans question the coach/GM of lottery teams that are not throwing games at the end of the year. This is expressly not punished by the commish, and a lot of NBA fans (myself included) were pissed that the tanking issue was not addressed in the new cba. You actually couldn't be more wrong: NBA teams throw games all. the. effing. time.
So why is GOMTV punishing Naniwa given the fact that they are the ones responsible for making a tournament format in which there aren't any inconsequential games being played and streamed.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not the Swedish youth Johan Lucchesi who plays the game well."
So they gave the seed but they didn't actually give the seed??? wtf?? Lying in order to make nice sounding official statements is not a good way to win community support.
Well i think naniwa left gom with little choice. How much of a fine will be substantial? Gom doesn't need the money and it sends the msg that hey i can throw any game away i like n pay my way outta it.
My first opinion was that Gom slammed the hammer down because if things like this occurred regularly they would lose viewers aka money. They swooped down pretending to be fair judges and made nani out to be unprofessional, saying they wouldn't punish while actually punishing severely. In reality they just want their fans to be entertained by their games so they're more willing to give up money at the end of the day.
Of course there's more too it, and Gom tv understands the situation much better than me, so I respect their decision.
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote: GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.
Are you serious? I can say definitively that you clearly do not follow the NBA in any way shape or form. Almost every lottery (non-playoff) team egregiously tanks at the end of every NBA season. It's so routine that NBA fans question the coach/GM of lottery teams that are not throwing games at the end of the year. This is expressly not punished by the commish, and a lot of NBA fans (myself included) were pissed that the tanking issue was not addressed in the new cba. You actually couldn't be more wrong: NBA teams throw games all. the. effing. time.
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote: GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.
In starcraft 2, most players gets variable income from prize money+a fixed salary from team. In sports the team gets variable income from tickets sold and a fixed income from sponsorship deals. The NBA championship doesn't even have any prize money. Sports teams have incentive to play out seasonal games to sell tickets, players do not. In fact, they are better of not playing at all to not reveal their style of play or their strategies.
Whether you like it or not, it's human nature to primarily act in its own interest. It's what modern economics is built upon* and systems that does not accommodate for that (like some sc2 tournaments) will always have problems with players not doing what they want.
We as foreigners should be extremely disappointed that Naniwa was removed from Code S, but as it is I do not believe Naniwa had what it took to be in Code S - if he requalifies in Code A, and then makes it to Code S, it will be better for everyone involved.
That being said, if this were a Korean player, there would be a much less biased response from TL.
GOM has a history of not liking players throwing their games. Bitch slapped Choya for playing RPS on LADDER for example and the ESV incident. But I agree with Tyler that GOM has all in their power to not let the game be played. I would've skipped it anyway if I knew it was pointless. Guess they wanted more ad revenue by making people sit around watching. Gotta pad the content I guess. Pretty much 100% agree with Tyler as usual. I mean, they should take some responsibility themselves for letting this happen.
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote: GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.
Are you serious? I can say definitively that you clearly do not follow the NBA in any way shape or form. Almost every lottery (non-playoff) team egregiously tanks at the end of every NBA season. It's so routine that NBA fans question the coach/GM of lottery teams that are not throwing games at the end of the year. This is expressly not punished by the commish, and a lot of NBA fans (myself included) were pissed that the tanking issue was not addressed in the new cba. You actually couldn't be more wrong: NBA teams throw games all. the. effing. time.
Hahhaah no one gives a shit about the end of season. Even during the final minute of a deciding championship match, one of the Lakers decided to sit on the court instead of play.
the only question that remains: will we be seeing him in the GSL again? given that
1) he has to do the qualifiers instead of getting handouts 2) his GSL track record (0-10) 3) his gimmicky expand build has already been figured out by koreans
I definitely agree with DOA more here in the sense that this is a special anniversary cup which is basically a showmatch tournament rather than a serious tournament, and that both Naniwa and Gom are to blame. GOM didn't have to broadcast the match for sure, and after being told he couldn't forfeit the match Naniwa should have at least tried to win regardless of how cheesy his build was. In the end GOM runs the show and blantantly throwing the game like that is disrespectful to the fans who paid for the ticket, GOM who is producing the content and Nestea. Allowing such disrespect isn't an option and I agree with the punishment handed to him.
And idra that says : Fuck you... to i dont remember who it is... but w.e... isnt that wrost than naniwa just raged and didnt want to play a game?What naniwa did is lame in my opinion cause people like me paid to watch PvX (mostly pvz in my case) and that was a game ill never watch...i still can get over it ...
I really want to say something about this. I think GOMTV is 100% justified in doing this and that anyone defending Naniwa is being extremely ignorant. First of all, GOMTV is the EMPLOYER of players, that mean is that Naniwa in GSL is EMPLOYED by GOMTV who is effectively his boss in the organization. GOMTV provides contents produced by revenues from customers who pay to see good games. As such, in GSL, Naniwa has an OBLIGATION to follow GSL's wishes if he wants to continually be employed by this organization. How is this a hard concept? What job in the world can you purposely, willingly and OBVIOUSLY show extremely sub-par performance when your boss asks you to do something because you think its pointless? This game might not have value for Naniwa, but for GOMTV (Naniwa's boss) it is extremely important as the yearly finale!
Sc2 isn't just a "game" to the players in GSL who play 8-12 hours a day, its a career that they give up their entire lives for. Its like spitting in the face of players who gave up everything to grind games nonstop (just like Naniwa) who would take Naniwa's position in a heartbeat. What Naniwa did is a disgrace!
Imagine if you bought tickets to a game on a team that lost too many games to make it to the play-offs so they just dick around the field? Just imagine the implication of a World Cup Soccer match where the team with 3 losses that cannot advance to the next round decides that they're gonna just let the other team score and sit around doing nothing?
Are people SERIOUSLY questioning why GOMTV decided to do this to Naniwa? Naniwa got off easy, if a Korean player did this, I would bet that it could've even been a permanent ban. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen, people defending Naniwa for this kind of action.
How can people say this is an overreaction? This is also a spit in Nestea's face, who apparently practiced very hard for this. It also wasn't just a regular season either, this was like the World Cup of GSL, it was the season closer for Gom who wanted to show an amazing tournament with the best players in the world.
Professionalism is part of being a pro, I hope Naniwa learns from this and doesn't just think of this as an "overreaction" because it isn't!
Ahhh so I finally found out about what Naniwa did, I was reading all of these statements from various parties and I wasn't really sure what happened.
Well after reading it, I can see how this would be dishonorable, and I would agree. When you are a pro at something, like the GOM response stated, you have a certain level of dignity that you have to maintain and I don't think that he did with his actions.
Even though in the west we don't care that much about honor and the things that are associated with it, it is a big deal in the east, and I completely agree with them and that ideal.
Edit: I'm not sure how I think of Naniwa as a player now I don't think that I hate it anything but, definitely went down in my books not a big fan of players who early gg or just don't try. I mean you are getting paid to do this, should just stop trying when you think that it isn't worth it, you have a duty to your fans and to your sponsors. You have to remember this when you are playing something professionally.
Even though in the west we don't care that much about honor and the things that are associated with it, it is a big deal in the east, and I completely agree with them and that ideal.
Edit: I'm not sure how I think of Naniwa as a player now I don't think that I hate it anything but, definitely went down in my books not a big fan of players who early gg or just don't try. I mean you are getting paid to do this, should just stop trying when you think that it isn't worth it, you have a duty to your fans and to your sponsors. You have to remember this when you are playing something professionally.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that "eastern honor" is the same as your idea of honor. Clue. It's not. It's only about saving face, it's certainly not about what's right or wrong or just. I say this with full knowledge of the culture being of korean descent and still having family there. Nani made GOM lose face in front of their korean viewers and had to be slapped down hard.
As a swede I find this kind of reasoning is disgusting and unprofessional.
Even though in the west we don't care that much about honor and the things that are associated with it, it is a big deal in the east, and I completely agree with them and that ideal.
Edit: I'm not sure how I think of Naniwa as a player now I don't think that I hate it anything but, definitely went down in my books not a big fan of players who early gg or just don't try. I mean you are getting paid to do this, should just stop trying when you think that it isn't worth it, you have a duty to your fans and to your sponsors. You have to remember this when you are playing something professionally.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that "eastern honor" is the same as your idea of honor. Clue. It's not. It's only about saving face, it's certainly not about what's right or wrong or just. I say this with full knowledge of the culture being of korean descent and still having family there. Nani made GOM lose face in front of their korean viewers and had to be slapped down hard.
lol please. Saving face? yeah that's kinda important. To some people
This case, it was about professionalism. pure and simple. a lot of koreans do have incredibly high standard regarding professionalism. WTF saving face has to do with Naniwa punishment? it seems like you dont know anything about how korean business work.
and stop pretending like you know all about korean culture. Because you sound like you barely know the surface it and try to paint it in negative tone.
I get really annoyed when people constantly attribute the problem to a difference in western and eastern culture that can't be helped. As it has been said, the issue is a matter of professionalism which should really be quite universal if you want to remain competitive in a get this--professional environment.
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote: GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.
You're kidding me right? You must not watch any sport
People field their subs nearly every single game that doesn't matter, nearly every single team does it every single season. You may not call that "throwing the game", but it's essentially saying "I don't give a fuck if we win" Even in matches that do matter they still do this. Example is in the brasil football league, teams that are also participating in the Libertadores will field their B-teams with no care for whether or not they win in regular league matches that very much count, just so the main players can rest for the Libertadores matches.
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote: GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.
You're kidding me right? You must not watch any sport
People field their subs nearly every single game that doesn't matter, nearly every single team does it every single season. You may not call that "throwing the game", but it's essentially saying "I don't give a fuck if we win" Even in matches that do matter they still do this. Example is in the brasil football league, teams that are also participating in the Libertadores will field their B-teams with no care for whether or not they win in regular league matches that very much count, just so the main players can rest for the Libertadores matches.
not this analogy again, newsflash! it's been discussed to death.
here is the recap, fielding a B team and non starter is akin to choosing to do 4 gate or cannon rushing or inferior build.
A moving probe rushing while one hand on your chin is like sitting on field doing nothing.
Even though in the west we don't care that much about honor and the things that are associated with it, it is a big deal in the east, and I completely agree with them and that ideal.
Edit: I'm not sure how I think of Naniwa as a player now I don't think that I hate it anything but, definitely went down in my books not a big fan of players who early gg or just don't try. I mean you are getting paid to do this, should just stop trying when you think that it isn't worth it, you have a duty to your fans and to your sponsors. You have to remember this when you are playing something professionally.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that "eastern honor" is the same as your idea of honor. Clue. It's not. It's only about saving face, it's certainly not about what's right or wrong or just. I say this with full knowledge of the culture being of korean descent and still having family there. Nani made GOM lose face in front of their korean viewers and had to be slapped down hard.
lol please. Saving face? yeah that's kinda important. To some people
This case, it was about professionalism. pure and simple. a lot of koreans do have incredibly high standard regarding professionalism. WTF saving face has to do with Naniwa punishment? it seems like you dont know anything about how korean business work.
and stop pretending like you know all about korean culture. Because you sound like you barely know the surface it and try to paint it in negative tone.
Ahh thank you for the defense post, now I don't have to rant
I believe the punishment is fair, anything more then 1 season would have been too significant though. There are a few analogies and responses to this situation however that I think are just completely wrong.
Comparing what Naniwa did to a sports team playing their B team is NOT a comparison to what Naniwa. It would be the equivalent of Naniwa doing an untested strategy. It is more comparable to a team taking to the field and just sitting on the pitch(completely taking hand off the keyboard).
Saying that it was an inconsequential game is also not entirely true. Hes representing ALOT of different groups of people be it foreigners, his team, his fans, his sponsors and other Progamers. There is a rivalry between the two players(naniwa losing to Nestea at Blizzcon, then coming back and beating Nestea in 2 series at Providence) a lot of people were expecting a good game, some even paid for it. Its true that both players were already eliminated from their group and the tournament however WHAT would have happened if one or more of the players that made it through to the next stage became ill, injured themselves and could not make the games the next day(this isn't outside the realm of possibilities players aren't put in isolated padded rooms between games), would there not have been a fill-in position from the result of this game?
Saying what he did doesn't matter it was nothing is just ignorant. If it wasn't a big deal then nothing would have been said, ALOT of people be it fans, GOM or other Programers took offense. Them taking offense is proof it wasn't the correct thing to do.
Anyway all parties have now had their say on the issue and Naniwa has apologized and received the punishment and hopefully has learned his lesson and will be back in season 2.
Even though in the west we don't care that much about honor and the things that are associated with it, it is a big deal in the east, and I completely agree with them and that ideal.
Edit: I'm not sure how I think of Naniwa as a player now I don't think that I hate it anything but, definitely went down in my books not a big fan of players who early gg or just don't try. I mean you are getting paid to do this, should just stop trying when you think that it isn't worth it, you have a duty to your fans and to your sponsors. You have to remember this when you are playing something professionally.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that "eastern honor" is the same as your idea of honor. Clue. It's not. It's only about saving face, it's certainly not about what's right or wrong or just. I say this with full knowledge of the culture being of korean descent and still having family there. Nani made GOM lose face in front of their korean viewers and had to be slapped down hard.
lol please. Saving face? yeah that's kinda important. To some people
This case, it was about professionalism. pure and simple. a lot of koreans do have incredibly high standard regarding professionalism. WTF saving face has to do with Naniwa punishment? it seems like you dont know anything about how korean business work.
and stop pretending like you know all about korean culture. Because you sound like you barely know the surface it and try to paint it in negative tone.
Ahh thank you for the defense post, now I don't have to rant
I doubt he has extensive knowledge about korean culture as he claims. I doubt he even has a relative or a decent to be honest as 'saving face' is a Japanese culture not korean culture.
It's like reading alot of Naniwa defence posts past few days and finding out most of them start with 'I'm not even a Naniwa fan....' yeah sure, you are not.
I'm surprised the other progamer reactions are so supportive of naniwa. Personally I feel he needed a reality check which is long overdue. He should have learned his lesson at MLG with all the controversy his immature behaviour caused. With that kind of behaviour you have no place in a $50000 professional tournament that is aired live on tv. If MLG staff would have been man enough to punish or fine him he might have been able to learn a lesson sooner and this might not have happened.
GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote: And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no.
How would you feel if you bought tickets ($$) for a concert, you show up, and the band plays 1 note then gives up and leaves?
Your bias is obvious because you clearly lack logic. GOM has paying customers they need to keep happy. GOM also has TV contracts and attracting viewers is part of their responsibility. People don't want to pay to see shit games like that and the majority would be disgusted (especially if they paid for premium tickets).
On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote: GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote: I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances.
Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself.
GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote: And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no.
How would you feel if you bought tickets ($$) for a concert, you show up, and the band plays 1 note then gives up and leaves?
Your bias is obvious because you clearly lack logic. GOM has paying customers they need to keep happy. GOM also has TV contracts and attracting viewers is part of their responsibility. People don't want to pay to see shit games like that and the majority would be disgusted (especially if they paid for premium tickets).
Who is the one lacking logic here? GOM is the party that set this up. If they want the best games possible they should assure that through format. You want to complain to someone, complain to GOM. Are you so self entitled that you think that you can complain about Naniwa pulling a fast one in his fourth game? He played three wonderful games, and when things didnt matter anymore, and he was mentally tired he kinda gave up. You cant compare that to a band playing 1 note. Last year I was at a Muse concert, it was totally awesome. But after the concert was done, they didnt come back out to play one or two more songs when the crowd was cheering for it (which is normal conduct for a large band). It was a little dissapointing, but nothing I could complain about. I got what i paid for.. and the costumers of GOM got exactly what they paid for... they paid for players playing to win (isnt that the argument that is always used when we see alot of cheese: You play to win in big tournaments). And please don't call me biased, I am not even a fan of Naniwa.
On December 15 2011 16:22 Govou wrote: I doubt he has extensive knowledge about korean culture as he claims. I doubt he even has a relative or a decent to be honest as 'saving face' is a Japanese culture not korean culture.
Despite living in a multicultural country like Canada you really seem to lack basic knowledge of asian cultures. My entire family's korean, my parents are korean, my grandparents are korean. I've grown up with this bullshit all my life and it pisses me off every single time fairness is swept under the rug for the sake of not being embarrassed in public.
Say what you want about what Naniwa did. Fact is. All of MLG and by association the entire western starcraft 2 scene assumed due to pretty straight forward statements at the start of the MLG-GSL cooperation that Naniwa was getting a seed.
GOM has several full time translators who post here and on starcraft reddit regularly on top of having two of their casters attending the same event that Naniwa was supposedly not getting his seed from. If anyone is telling me with a straight face that nobody at gom saw all the Naniwa to code S spam including several articles posted by their partner company MLG then you are a complete and utter moron. If you believe somebody at gom saw and thought it a good idea not to correct a mistaken belief held by the global starcraft community then you're beyond a moron.
GOM pulled the rug under Naniwa to save face. They should be fucking ashamed of themselves for this farce.
On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote: GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote: I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances.
Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself.
GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked.
No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them.
On December 15 2011 16:22 Govou wrote: I doubt he has extensive knowledge about korean culture as he claims. I doubt he even has a relative or a decent to be honest as 'saving face' is a Japanese culture not korean culture.
Despite living in a multicultural country like Canada you really seem to lack basic knowledge of asian cultures. My entire family's korean, my parents are korean, my grandparents are korean. I've grown up with this bullshit all my life and it pisses me off every single time fairness is swept under the rug for the sake of not being embarrassed in public.
Say what you want about what Naniwa did. Fact is. All of MLG and by association the entire western starcraft 2 scene assumed due to pretty straight forward statements at the start of the MLG-GSL cooperation that Naniwa was getting a seed.
GOM has several full time translators who post here and on starcraft reddit regularly on top of having two of their casters attending the same event that Naniwa was supposedly not getting his seed from. If anyone is telling me with a straight face that nobody at gom saw all the Naniwa to code S spam including several articles posted by their partner company MLG then you are a complete and utter moron. If you believe somebody at gom saw and thought it a good idea not to correct a mistaken belief held by the global starcraft community then you're beyond a moron.
GOM pulled the rug under Naniwa to save face. They should be fucking ashamed of themselves for this farce.
I dont know what's going on with your family and I dont want to know but I'm sorry to hear you feel that way about a culture.
Anyway getting back on the topic, A lot of what you say is your own assumption. Where is the fact?
Here let me give you one. I just found out from the web and used google translate.
The article was written just after MLG providence and this clearly says Naniwa was not guaranteed a code S spot. I don't know what went on with MLG and their statements but it seems like GOM and koreans obviously didnt think so.
On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote: GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote: I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances.
Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself.
GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked.
No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them.
If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the authority of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa.
On December 15 2011 16:22 Govou wrote: I doubt he has extensive knowledge about korean culture as he claims. I doubt he even has a relative or a decent to be honest as 'saving face' is a Japanese culture not korean culture.
Despite living in a multicultural country like Canada you really seem to lack basic knowledge of asian cultures. My entire family's korean, my parents are korean, my grandparents are korean. I've grown up with this bullshit all my life and it pisses me off every single time fairness is swept under the rug for the sake of not being embarrassed in public.
Say what you want about what Naniwa did. Fact is. All of MLG and by association the entire western starcraft 2 scene assumed due to pretty straight forward statements at the start of the MLG-GSL cooperation that Naniwa was getting a seed.
GOM has several full time translators who post here and on starcraft reddit regularly on top of having two of their casters attending the same event that Naniwa was supposedly not getting his seed from. If anyone is telling me with a straight face that nobody at gom saw all the Naniwa to code S spam including several articles posted by their partner company MLG then you are a complete and utter moron. If you believe somebody at gom saw and thought it a good idea not to correct a mistaken belief held by the global starcraft community then you're beyond a moron.
GOM pulled the rug under Naniwa to save face. They should be fucking ashamed of themselves for this farce.
Gom pulled the rug under Naniwa to save face? Of course they did. Why would they want a player that not only disrespects the competition, but the other player by not even attempting to play out the game?
Here's a good analogy: You get an invitation from a company saying you got a job to work for them. You show up at the workplace and get training. During your training, you get extremely frustrated and tired then decide to ignore your potential bosses wishes by dicking around. Not only that, you do it in an extremely clear and noticeable fashion in-front of everybody at the company. Would you still be hired regardless of the companies call? Its not like Naniwa had a legal contract.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote: Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted...
So doing ONE action in an entire game is regarded playing these days? Bronze level players do more than that. Stop viewing the "proberush" in isolation. He didn't want to play a game in a tournament so he just sent all his workers to the enemy base with the intention of losing quickly. There was no doubt in his mind on what the outcome would be, unlike other cheesy allin's he could have done. I think the apologies posted in another thread on TL from Naniwa and his team sums up what needs to be said pretty good, I suggest you read it
On December 15 2011 17:16 Ravnemesteren wrote:
No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them.
I'm pretty sure handing in empty papers when asked for a report would get you fired in pretty much any organization that takes itself seriously. But the whole employer analogy is a terrible one to begin with so I'll just respond to you last sentence about GOM's duty to give their paying customers a good product: Telling Naniwa that it would be better for GOM if he didn't play in their tournament anymore is exactly what you feel is their responsibility. Again, read the statement from Naniwa and his team (according to you his boss).
On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote: GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote: I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances.
Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself.
GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked.
No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them.
If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the rules of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa.
They didnt hire him. He qualified through their rules. Why do you insist on believing that they in some way act as his employer? But since you really want to make that comparison I will make one for you. A company hires a freelance person to do a job for them. But the design they have given the freelance employee is flawed. When shit hits the fan they lay all the blame on the freelance employee even though the design was their idea. Because thats the main problem here. Naniwa played his heart out when it mattered, but didnt when it didnt matter. Why do we watch tournament games? We watch them to see great players battle it out when it matters the most, we want important games. GOM can't complain since Naniwa didn't follow some weird korean idea of how a pro gamer should act... they purposely set up the tournament so foreigners could join. If you can't see that the blame is on GOM i am amazed. The only viewers that complain are self entitled people that love to complain... especially if they paid money. They should just realise they got what they paid for from Naniwa... but not from GOM since they made a format that will assure you games that doesnt matter. That should be easy to understand. If you just love any game, and it doesnt matter if somethings on the line, then why pay at all? Just watch streams of the pro's all day.
Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
I would really like to know about whether the MLG/GSL partnership was cancelled before Providence, as that is a big aspect in this controversy (whether Naniwa just didn't receive an invitation that was originally or whether he was expelled from something he had gotten).
That no top-performing non-Korean at the MLG was invited to Code A seems to speak for the end of the exchange beforehand. However, did any of the Koreans got their flight and accomodation to Providence funded by the MLG (just as a note, they were not seeded, they all qualified for the championship bracket due to their previous results at other MLGs).
I would like to hear a nice and clear statement from the MLG, it was kind of embarrassing to see Slasher beating around the bush for so long yesterday.
On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote: GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote: I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances.
Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself.
GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked.
No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them.
If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the rules of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa.
They didnt hire him. He qualified through their rules. Why do you insist on believing that they in some way act as his employer? But since you really want to make that comparison I will make one for you. A company hires a freelance person to do a job for them. But the design they have given the freelance employee is flawed. When shit hits the fan they lay all the blame on the freelance employee even though the design was their idea. Because thats the main problem here. Naniwa played his heart out when it mattered, but didnt when it didnt matter. Why do we watch tournament games? We watch them to see great players battle it out when it matters the most, we want important games. GOM can't complain since Naniwa didn't follow some weird korean idea of how a pro gamer should act... they purposely set up the tournament so foreigners could join. If you can't see that the blame is on GOM i am amazed. The only viewers that complain are self entitled people that love to complain... especially if they paid money. They should just realise they got what they paid for from Naniwa... but not from GOM since they made a format that will assure you games that doesnt matter. That should be easy to understand. If you just love any game, and it doesnt matter if somethings on the line, then why pay at all? Just watch streams of the pro's all day.
Your analogy is just.. completely wrong. There was nothing wrong with any design at all. Here's a WAY more correct version of your analogy:
A freelancer does a good job in a newspaper. A bigger newspaper goes "Nice, wanna do an article for us?". Freelancer decides that it's a good idea, but the article doesn't turn out the way he wanted it. The big newspaper says "Well, we already hired you, so please complete the article anyway." Freelancer gets angry and hands in an empty paper claiming it's his article. Newspaper tells freelancer he's not welcome to write articles for them again for some time.
On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote: GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote: I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances.
Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself.
GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked.
No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them.
If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the rules of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa.
They didnt hire him. He qualified through their rules. Why do you insist on believing that they in some way act as his employer? But since you really want to make that comparison I will make one for you. A company hires a freelance person to do a job for them. But the design they have given the freelance employee is flawed. When shit hits the fan they lay all the blame on the freelance employee even though the design was their idea. Because thats the main problem here. Naniwa played his heart out when it mattered, but didnt when it didnt matter. Why do we watch tournament games? We watch them to see great players battle it out when it matters the most, we want important games. GOM can't complain since Naniwa didn't follow some weird korean idea of how a pro gamer should act... they purposely set up the tournament so foreigners could join. If you can't see that the blame is on GOM i am amazed. The only viewers that complain are self entitled people that love to complain... especially if they paid money. They should just realise they got what they paid for from Naniwa... but not from GOM since they made a format that will assure you games that doesnt matter. That should be easy to understand. If you just love any game, and it doesnt matter if somethings on the line, then why pay at all? Just watch streams of the pro's all day.
The reason why I insist on them being an employer is that GOMTV was supposed to be his employer. When you participate in GSL, GOMTV is your boss. Potential employee might've been a better word. How is the blame on GOM that they decided to not allow Naniwa to participate in their tournament because of Naniwa's childish behavior? This isn't some radical Korean idealism, showing good games to your fans and respecting your opponent by at least playing the game at a tournament your in should be common sense for a PROFESSIONAL. If not, you risk the potential for a ban.
If Naniwa had no plans of being part of GSL afterwards, I could understand, but he wasn't just a random "freelancer" trying to make a quick cash, he was planning to join GSL code S as part of GOMTV's employee. The fact that GOMTV refuses to hire him based on this, regardless of the previous notice, is completely up to GOM. I fail to see how this is Gom's fault.
I'm not saying Naniwa committed some moral sin, I'm saying based on what Naniwa did, GOMTV has good reason why they want to retract their invite.
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote: GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.
You're kidding me right? You must not watch any sport
People field their subs nearly every single game that doesn't matter, nearly every single team does it every single season. You may not call that "throwing the game", but it's essentially saying "I don't give a fuck if we win" Even in matches that do matter they still do this. Example is in the brasil football league, teams that are also participating in the Libertadores will field their B-teams with no care for whether or not they win in regular league matches that very much count, just so the main players can rest for the Libertadores matches.
I'm getting so sick about this stupid, stupid comparison, please for the love of all the kittens out there - STOP IT.
When professional teams field their "B-Team" it's always to give their stars a BREAK. I've read stories about Messi raging when he was "forced" into breaks because he desperately wanted to play and give his fans a good show. Fielding the B-Team means that the stars can recover, don't risk injuries and whatnot. Furthermore, these are vital situations for younger players to prove themselves. Therefore they very often give all they can give and delive terrific games. Because they want to show what they are capable of. Players who don't have the chance of playing very often must cherish these rather rare games, where the attention is on them.
All of that obviously does NOT apply to the situation here. I could understand, for example, if someone goes 3-0 and doesn't want to show his "hands", therefore doing a strange strategy. But here, there was nothing to lose from "not" playing the game out.
I think what NaNiwa did against NesTea in the match that got him suspended from Code S was a whatever game because they were both 0-3. So why would Naniwa want to play a showmatch against NesTea just to give people a useless match so i think GOMTV had so right to ban him for something so stupid. Lets say they were both 2-2 and it went into a final game i would understand if he worker rushed when it would be a tie for matches but when they were both 0-3 i dont think they should have the right to ban him for something so stupid. And i really want to hear MLG's point of view on this because like someone mentioned before JP didnt want to say anything because he didnt want to represent MLG on this topic. I think GOM should talk to CEO Sundance about this because Naniwa doesnt deserve to be banned from Code S.
If a Korean player did this they more then likely wouldnt get such a harsh sentence. I think GOM should of thought this through before they banned him for worker rushing especially because what is he going to lose worker rushing when both player are 0-3 anyways.
On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote: Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
careful. random accusations are frowned upon.
that said, I can see where you're coming from, but honestly I think he's just immature.
On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote: GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote: I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances.
Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself.
GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked.
No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them.
If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the rules of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa.
They didnt hire him. He qualified through their rules. Why do you insist on believing that they in some way act as his employer? But since you really want to make that comparison I will make one for you. A company hires a freelance person to do a job for them. But the design they have given the freelance employee is flawed. When shit hits the fan they lay all the blame on the freelance employee even though the design was their idea. Because thats the main problem here. Naniwa played his heart out when it mattered, but didnt when it didnt matter. Why do we watch tournament games? We watch them to see great players battle it out when it matters the most, we want important games. GOM can't complain since Naniwa didn't follow some weird korean idea of how a pro gamer should act... they purposely set up the tournament so foreigners could join. If you can't see that the blame is on GOM i am amazed. The only viewers that complain are self entitled people that love to complain... especially if they paid money. They should just realise they got what they paid for from Naniwa... but not from GOM since they made a format that will assure you games that doesnt matter. That should be easy to understand. If you just love any game, and it doesnt matter if somethings on the line, then why pay at all? Just watch streams of the pro's all day.
Your analogy is just.. completely wrong. There was nothing wrong with any design at all. Here's a WAY more correct version of your analogy:
A freelancer does a good job in a newspaper. A bigger newspaper goes "Nice, wanna do an article for us?". Freelancer decides that it's a good idea, but the article doesn't turn out the way he wanted it. The big newspaper says "Well, we already hired you, so please complete the article anyway." Freelancer gets angry and hands in an empty paper claiming it's his article. Newspaper tells freelancer he's not welcome to write articles for them again for some time.
Not this idiocy again. Stop with the "he didnt give them anything" argument. He gave them great games. The flaw in the product is with GOM. Or are you one of those people who just want to see games being played no matter what, it doesnt matter if anything is on the line? Lets say your newspaper hired someone to do several articles. He did three excellent articles about stuff that mattered, and when they ask him to write about something that nobody really cares about, something that is irrelevant to world news (or whatever) he writes one sentence. And on top of that, the writer was working for free... he was just writing it for his own fame. I say the newspaper is to blame for wanting useless articles.
You dont see a flaw in the product from GOM's side? Really? Meaningless games are boring. And the format itself is really flawed because of that. Therefore the design is flawed.
I think that this was completely unacceptable and unproffesional Idra-like behavior which should be punished. I like him as a player, but people should understand that these are not ladder games - these players are payed for that, and should behave appropriately. At least if we want people to have respect to esports...
On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote: GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote: I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances.
Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself.
GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked.
No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them.
If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the rules of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa.
They didnt hire him. He qualified through their rules. Why do you insist on believing that they in some way act as his employer? But since you really want to make that comparison I will make one for you. A company hires a freelance person to do a job for them. But the design they have given the freelance employee is flawed. When shit hits the fan they lay all the blame on the freelance employee even though the design was their idea. Because thats the main problem here. Naniwa played his heart out when it mattered, but didnt when it didnt matter. Why do we watch tournament games? We watch them to see great players battle it out when it matters the most, we want important games. GOM can't complain since Naniwa didn't follow some weird korean idea of how a pro gamer should act... they purposely set up the tournament so foreigners could join. If you can't see that the blame is on GOM i am amazed. The only viewers that complain are self entitled people that love to complain... especially if they paid money. They should just realise they got what they paid for from Naniwa... but not from GOM since they made a format that will assure you games that doesnt matter. That should be easy to understand. If you just love any game, and it doesnt matter if somethings on the line, then why pay at all? Just watch streams of the pro's all day.
Your analogy is just.. completely wrong. There was nothing wrong with any design at all. Here's a WAY more correct version of your analogy:
A freelancer does a good job in a newspaper. A bigger newspaper goes "Nice, wanna do an article for us?". Freelancer decides that it's a good idea, but the article doesn't turn out the way he wanted it. The big newspaper says "Well, we already hired you, so please complete the article anyway." Freelancer gets angry and hands in an empty paper claiming it's his article. Newspaper tells freelancer he's not welcome to write articles for them again for some time.
Not this idiocy again. Stop with the "he didnt give them anything" argument. He gave them great games. The flaw in the product is with GOM. Or are you one of those people who just want to see games being played no matter what, it doesnt matter if anything is on the line? Lets say your newspaper hired someone to do several articles. He did three excellent articles about stuff that mattered, and when they ask him to write about something that nobody really cares about, something that is irrelevant to world news (or whatever) he writes one sentence. And on top of that, the writer was working for free... he was just writing it for his own fame. I say the newspaper is to blame for wanting useless articles.
You dont see a flaw in the product from GOM's side? Really? Meaningless games are boring. And the format itself is really flawed because of that. Therefore the design is flawed.
The game might be meaningless for the tournament, but it obviously wasn't meaningless for Nestea, he was looking forward to playing against Naniwa and trained for it. It obviously wasn't meaningless for GOMtv since they denied Naniwa the right to forfeit. A lot of people want to see Nestea vs Naniwa regardless of tournament results. The point is that it wasn't naniwas choice to make. He asked if he could forfeit and was denied. Then he made a clown out of himself by not playing the games properly simply because he's a "rebel" and decided that his definition of meaningful trumphed everyone elses.
You might disagree with GOM what constitutes an interesting game, but they don't have to respect your individual opinion on this, and they don't have to respect naniwas. It's not a flaw, it's just a decision you guys happen to disagree with.
On December 15 2011 18:08 H1STORY wrote: If a Korean player did this they more then likely wouldnt get such a harsh sentence.
such ridiculous nonsense - if a Korean player had done this, he most likely would have gotten a severe punishment from his TEAM before TL could even have made the first thread about that
the only reason that the "punishment" has to be "justified" in such way is that Nani isn't in fact Korean
On December 15 2011 18:11 Ravnemesteren wrote: Or are you one of those people who just want to see games being played no matter what, it doesnt matter if anything is on the line?
I am. As a matter of fact, all I want is too see great games, regardless of what is at stake for the players involved.
I do not agree with GOMTV on this one. Naniwa did not broke any rules, they should not have authority to do this to him. I understand that this is their tournament, but what they did is basically said that they do not like Naniwa and just kicked him out. This means that they can just simply kick out any player from their tournament without any reason, which is not a sign of fair competition.
I can see where they are coming from, but the whole thing is so completely harmless and irrelevant that I don't understand why Naniwa in particular receives so much shit for that. He obviously has some temper issues but he is fighting them as best as he can. Why doesn't that deserve some respect? His explanation of the incident was in my opinion perfectly acceptable.
The game was absolutely irrelevant. He didn't match fix for any personal or national gain, he just gave up because he didn't want to play a meaningless game. What's the problem with that? People have done worse things before that actually meant something (Koreans throwing games at WCG for example to get an all-korean top 3. Stork and Jaedong.) and have not received as much criticism and silly punishments.
On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote: Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
Maybe you're trying not to be offensive but asking if someone is retarded is NOT OK, jesus christ.
On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote: Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
Maybe you're trying not to be offensive but asking if someone is retarded is NOT OK, jesus christ.
He's not asking if Naniwa is retarded. -_-
"...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."
On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote: Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
I would say that this is highly likely.
The thing is, so does many other progamers. I dont have any proof, or examples, but I cant see how progaming would not attract a disproportionate amount of people who tend to be completely focused on one task, are able to drown themselves in their work, live under special circumstances and like to use computers as a buffer for social interaction.
I work with children with Asperger's/autism part time btw. So you can trust me, I am practically a doctor. >.<
On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote: Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
Maybe you're trying not to be offensive but asking if someone is retarded is NOT OK, jesus christ.
That you would label an antisocial personality disorder as "retarded" is hugely ignorant. Your ignorance aside it is a very legitimate question, especially since naniwa has repeatedly demonstrated behaviors consistent with symptoms of APSD.
I think GOM was ignorant to ban Naniwa if anyone seen the semi finals of Blizzard Cup tonight you would of seen that MVP pretty much through the last two games against MMA. The matches lasted around 10-14 minutes game 2-3 and GOMTV wont punish MVP for pretty much throwing the last two games
MVP lost the last two games to the exact same thing Marine rush no one can argue with the fact that he seemed like he threw the game because game 1 he put so much effort in. then Game 1-2 he just gave up and died to Marine rush
I'm still of the opinion that what GOM did is completely wrong.
1. The tournament setup was faulty. 2. Naniwa was wrong. 3. Naniwa apologised for his actions. 4. GOM should have apologised for their tourment setup. 5. GOM, Quantic and Naniwa should have worked out their differences behind the scenes and come to some sort of understanding, perhaps a fine, or an official warning, or something like that. Revoking the Code S Invite (or Seed as 99% of the Community thought it was) is going taking the punishment way, way beyond the "crime".
"Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread."
I am sorry, but then what is the point of this thread then? What is the point of discussion, where one point of view is banned from the beginning in pursuit of political corectness? This situation is a blatant manifestation of Korean cultural bias. Saying so is not racism or stereotyping. Denying the fact that people that have been raised in different cultures approach given situation with a different preexisting bias, because their ethical structure, which is the base for any non-data-driven decision, is different, is superificial to say the least.
I honestly think that the whole situation can be summarized by "Koreans think differently, we can either learn to live with that or make our own e-sport scene independently". Continuing with the willfull ingorance of differences in basic thinking process between people raised in euro-american and south korean background (note, I am not saying "Koreans and white dudes", it is not about appearance, but how one was being raised) will only lead to more abursd drama.
On December 15 2011 20:59 H1STORY wrote: I think GOM was ignorant to ban Naniwa if anyone seen the semi finals of Blizzard Cup tonight you would of seen that MVP pretty much through the last two games against MMA. The matches lasted around 10-14 minutes game 2-3 and GOMTV wont punish MVP for pretty much throwing the last two games
And here we go, another one late to the party. 1. GOM did not ban Naniwa, they revoked his invitation to Code S. 2. A game lasting 10 minutes is a game. Naniwa boxed workers, a-moved, then removed hands from keyboard. DON'T compare the two sitations since there's basically no similarity at all.
Well, I must say this changes my point of view quite a bit. First of all the "amateur prize money hunter" was apparantly due to poor translation, that is not really a big surprise. More important is the fact that Naniwa asked to forfeit the game and was denied. So he knew exactly that they wanted him to play the game and that it would probaly cause drama. Under this circumstances the punishment seems much more reasonable.
I think the hole thing is way overblown. I dont even understand in the slightest why he had to play the game anyways for reasons which have been mentioned over and over in this thread. In my oppinion they simply should have skipped the match and went on with an exciting Polt vs MMA match for the possible 3 way tie. Matter of fact I felt like GOM is stealing my time in forcing me to wait for that match. Also mind anybody telling me if there EVER was a realy good match where nothing was at stake? I certainly cant. Further I actually thought it was hilarious to just probe rush to throw the game. Of course this will only work once because everybody from then on will be credited as lazy - irresponsible - or whatever for throwing a game. And because he dumped a completely non sense game hes now being thrown out of Code S? And they act like he wasnt even seeded? As far as I remember there has been no excuse to the rule that MLG winner takes a Code S spot and if the winner already got one the 2nd place finisher will take it (and so on) so I dont realy understand their argument of him just being considered for a Code S spot. To me it seems like GOM simply was pissed because Naniwa acted that way after asking GOM whether he may forfeit or not and GOM declined. So what to do? Right make an example. Of course they have the power to do that. The guidlines this is based on are not realy clear to me (-> read LiquidTylers statement) and i agree that its just tough to realy understand why they punished him that harshly. What realy makes me sad about this is the fact that there are just few foreigner who actually have the needed skill and the desire right now to compete in GSL. Besides Huk maybe Naniwa and Idra are the only non push over guys. Im not saying Naniwa realy is Code S material but he in my oppinion is still better than most others. So what they basically do is they substitute the best candidate with a worse player therefore giving us a worse product. Because of this and the draconic ruling i decided to not get another seasonpass for GSL. I bought the all up till this point - for every tournament - but not anymore. Im realy not sattisfied with the way they handled this. They just used their power harshly to make a "if u dont follow our rules youre f**ked" statement.
Regarding Naniwas behavior Id like to say he seems to be immature, irresponsible and offensive. But at the end of the day I dont care about Naniwas character - I care about his SC2 skills and to hell with all those *add silly girly voice* "I just want to show great games to the fans <3<3<3<3" idiots. Thats basically a lie - they first and foremost want to win and beat their opponents. And Im sure that ANYBODY will likely execute the most boring and unexciting strategy as long as it guarantees them a GSL win any day over showing exciting matches and dropping out early.
On December 15 2011 21:02 loladin wrote: I'm still of the opinion that what GOM did is completely wrong.
1. The tournament setup was faulty. 2. Naniwa was wrong. 3. Naniwa apologised for his actions. 4. GOM should have apologised for their tourment setup. 5. GOM, Quantic and Naniwa should have worked out their differences behind the scenes and come to some sort of understanding, perhaps a fine, or an official warning, or something like that. Revoking the Code S Invite (or Seed as 99% of the Community thought it was) is going taking the punishment way, way beyond the "crime".
I agree with Loladin what GOM did was wrong.
1. Made Naniwa play a match when both players were 0-3. 2. Naniwa shouldnt have to play a match when he wouldn't advance anyways. 3. GOM should think what they would do to their korean players if one did the same as what NaNiwa did. 4. Quantic should of told GOM they didnt want NaNiwa to play a useless game against NesTea that wouldnt mean anything. And what GOM did to the member of the Quantic SC2 team was beyond stupid. Revoking Naniwa's Code S Invite. They just lost one of the best forgeiners in the SC2 League for Code S because of a stupid game that shouldnt of been played.
I think that 85% of the competitive SC2 Community agrees that revoking Naniwa's Code S Invite for the first season was way to big of a punishment. The reason i think it was stupid is because Naniwa is one of the top rated SC2 players in the world and he has many big titles. GOM should take responsibility for what Naniwa did as a clue that they shouldn't make players that are already 0-3 in their series matches to play a show match when they are already eliminated anyways.
An example of a match today between MVP vs MMA was pretty much an example of throwing a game in game 1 MMA vs MVP was an amazing match. Then in game 2-3 MVP lost to the same marine rush both games without a fight which i think was him throwing a game in a less manner way then Naniwa did and i guarantee GOM wont do anything.
On December 15 2011 21:09 CingCoCo wrote: I think the hole thing is way overblown. I dont even understand in the slightest why he had to play the game anyways for reasons which have been mentioned over and over in this thread.
Because GOM pays you prize money based on their advertisements, and they need games played to show ads. If a player doesn't like it, they don't have to accept the prize money.
On December 15 2011 21:09 CingCoCo wrote: Regarding Naniwas behavior Id like to say he seems to be immature, irresponsible and offensive. But at the end of the day I dont care about Naniwas character - I care about his SC2 skills and to hell with all those *add silly girly voice* "I just want to show great games to the fans <3<3<3<3" idiots. Thats basically a lie - they first and foremost want to win and beat their opponents. And Im sure that ANYBODY will likely execute the most boring and unexciting strategy as long as it guarantees them a GSL win any day over showing exciting matches and dropping out early.
Why would a tournament want to take you on if you exhibit this level of emotional instability? They invest in you being in the league. They were rightfully upset when Idra quit Code S after going through group selection. Is it his right to play and not play when he chooses to? Yes. But GOM doesn't have to pay you if you don't play by the rules - that's their right.
On December 15 2011 21:09 CingCoCo wrote: Matter of fact I felt like GOM is stealing my time in forcing me to wait for that match.
Just don't watch it until it comes up, you can't blame a program for stealing time.
On December 15 2011 21:09 CingCoCo wrote: Also mind anybody telling me if there EVER was a realy good match where nothing was at stake? I certainly cant.
Abosolutely, spend 1 hour watching a pro stream in GM and you'll definitely see exiting games.
On December 15 2011 21:09 CingCoCo wrote: Further I actually thought it was hilarious to just probe rush to throw the game. Of course this will only work once because everybody from then on will be credited as lazy - irresponsible - or whatever for throwing a game.
He boxed workers and A-moved, nothing interesting or funny about that. He was just being a bitch towards GOM.
On December 15 2011 21:09 CingCoCo wrote: And because he dumped a completely non sense game hes now being thrown out of Code S? And they act like he wasnt even seeded? As far as I remember there has been no excuse to the rule that MLG winner takes a Code S spot and if the winner already got one the 2nd place finisher will take it (and so on) so I dont realy understand their argument of him just being considered for a Code S spot.
Well, you're wrong. That's how it worked before, but not in providence. This is a fact, no need to discuss it.
On December 15 2011 21:09 CingCoCo wrote: They just used their power harshly to make a "if u dont follow our rules youre f**ked" statement.
Can you blame them? GSL is the biggest tournament in SC2, they have to demand respect.
Shai i guess you didnt put into consideration that they made Naniwa play an embarrasing and useless show match which made Naniwa look like a bad player. When everyone knows that Naniwa is a top tier player in SC2 and if you lost all 3 games why would they have to make you play another game which means nothing if i was him i would of done samething.
Okay tobber think about it they made him play a game of which was useless why would he try i would of done same thing if i was him. but them revoking his Code S Invite went to far
3. GOM should think what they would do to their korean players if one did the same as what NaNiwa did.
They would do the same or worse. Honestly, where do people get off saying it was because he was a foreigner? All you need to do is look at the history - Coca, Rain, Choya or every example of Kespa style punishment.
On December 15 2011 21:19 H1STORY wrote: Okay tobber think about it they made him play a game of which was useless why would he try i would of done same thing if i was him. but them revoking his Code S Invite went to far
Who cares if it's useless? If your boss gives you a job, do you just ignore it because YOU think it's useless?
GOM owns the tournament, they decide which games are useless, Naniwa has no say in it.
Hey dude, don't know if you realise it, there's a poll on the front page. It has 10 000 votes and counting. I predict you get less than 10% of that here.
How can i answer that question? If i say no, that means i dont think it was right or wrong. If i answer yes, then it means i think it was both right and wroing.
taking GSL January off means he wont even try to compete? Or does it mean the logistics behind getting him into qualifiers and code a and such are just not there and he has no possibilities to compete?
Remember that GSL seasons are now two months, that means not competing in GSL january is two months no NaNiWa in GSL. Gets me a little sad.
On December 15 2011 21:12 H1STORY wrote: An example of a match today between MVP vs MMA was pretty much an example of throwing a game in game 1 MMA vs MVP was an amazing match. Then in game 2-3 MVP lost to the same marine rush both games without a fight which i think was him throwing a game in a less manner way then Naniwa did and i guarantee GOM wont do anything.
It's really time clueless people like you get banned for throwing away random (match fixing?) accusations without any proof. Besides, game 3 was not a Marine/SCV all-in at all... Facepalm.
On December 15 2011 21:03 opisska wrote: "Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread."
I am sorry, but then what is the point of this thread then? What is the point of discussion, where one point of view is banned from the beginning in pursuit of political corectness? This situation is a blatant manifestation of Korean cultural bias. Saying so is not racism or stereotyping. Denying the fact that people that have been raised in different cultures approach given situation with a different preexisting bias, because their ethical structure, which is the base for any non-data-driven decision, is different, is superificial to say the least.
I honestly think that the whole situation can be summarized by "Koreans think differently, we can either learn to live with that or make our own e-sport scene independently". Continuing with the willfull ingorance of differences in basic thinking process between people raised in euro-american and south korean background (note, I am not saying "Koreans and white dudes", it is not about appearance, but how one was being raised) will only lead to more abursd drama.
I don't know how it is in where you live but the majority of the rest of the world agrees with the Koreans. Just check the poll on the front page. Way to be wrong, buddy!
to everyone out there crying your hearts out because you feel robbed of a proper "naniwa vs nestea-rematch", i think that you are better off this way.
a large reason why naniwa didnt want to play a real game versus nestea was because he felt he couldnt perform 100%, his ego simply wouldnt let him give the impression of taking the game seriously and losing. if he would have 4-gated and lost, people would still be saying "hah, i guess nestea is better than naniwa!" and im pretty confident naniwa wanted to avoid this.
so what did he do? he lost in a fashion that was impossible to interpret as if nestea was the better player.
On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote: Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
I would say that this is highly likely.
The thing is, so does many other progamers. I dont have any proof, or examples, but I cant see how progaming would not attract a disproportionate amount of people who tend to be completely focused on one task, are able to drown themselves in their work, live under special circumstances and like to use computers as a buffer for social interaction.
I work with children with Asperger's/autism part time btw. So you can trust me, I am practically a doctor. >.<
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST ON A FUCKING MOPED.
It's bad enough that there is an open speculation about whether naniwa has some sort of mental disorder. But you seriously compare Asperger's syndrome with anti-social personality disorder and DARE to call yourself "practically a doctor". Do you have any idea just how offensive that is?
Anti-social personality disorder is the disorder commonly associated with psychopaths. It's characterized by (1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest (2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure (3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead (4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults (5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others (6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations (7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
It is imho one of the worst and most disrespectful thing of accusing another person of having.
Asperger's syndrome is characterized by difficulties in social interaction and "quirky" behavior. It's part of the autism spectrum (think Rain Man instead of Patrick Bateman). People with Asperger's don't lack remorse at all, they sometimes just have a hard time understanding what they did wrong in a social context and if they are irritable and aggressive, it's mostly because they panic in a social situation.
I find it disgusting to see people speculating about whether another person has a mental disorder so casually. People have been banned here just for calling other people "retards".
Sure Naniwa didn't show his most professional side and the fans were robbed of their game between those two awesome players. However the decision to deny him code-s is a rather harsh punishment no matter what you choose to call it officially.
And to be honest, from a respectfulness point of view. Isn't the manner mules, self-base nukes etc that are used to outright disrespect your opponent worse? At least if you need to uphold this high standard of respect and professionalism. And if it's only about not giving the fans their games, then this decision is even worse because now we wont get to see any Naniwa games in January.
On December 15 2011 22:13 R_247 wrote: Sure Naniwa didn't show his most professional side and the fans were robbed of their game between those two awesome players. However the decision to deny him code-s is a rather harsh punishment no matter what you choose to call it officially.
And to be honest, from a respectfulness point of view. Isn't the manner mules, self-base nukes etc that are used to outright disrespect your opponent worse? At least if you need to uphold this high standard of respect and professionalism. And if it's only about not giving the fans their games, then this decision is even worse because now we wont get to see any Naniwa games in January.
Just my two cents. /R
No.
A Korean would probably have a lifetime ban... Not just a "declined" invite or spot. Nani is getting away "lightly" on this compared to what a Korean would get for doing something like this.
I have said this in other thread and I will post here again: Progamers earn from tournaments, salaries and streaming. Other than streaming, those other two are heavily relying on sponsorship. Sponsors number and amount they sponsor will vary based upon the number of audience that it would reach out to.
The viewers number is high for these tournaments because they expect good matches to watch, to enjoy, from these top/interesting players.
IF you honestly think "oh, progamer plays to win, not to entertain", then you are killing a lot of esport because for those who wanted to watch good matches and PAID for the tickets, these games aren't what they want.
What naniwa did was quite disrespectful, not only to the players but also to his team, his sponsor and to whoever paid to watch the matches.
On December 15 2011 22:13 R_247 wrote: Sure Naniwa didn't show his most professional side and the fans were robbed of their game between those two awesome players. However the decision to deny him code-s is a rather harsh punishment no matter what you choose to call it officially.
And to be honest, from a respectfulness point of view. Isn't the manner mules, self-base nukes etc that are used to outright disrespect your opponent worse? At least if you need to uphold this high standard of respect and professionalism. And if it's only about not giving the fans their games, then this decision is even worse because now we wont get to see any Naniwa games in January.
Just my two cents. /R
No.
A Korean would probably have a lifetime ban... Not just a "declined" invite or spot. Nani is getting away "lightly" on this compared to what a Korean would get for doing something like this.
I have no idea if that's true or not. To me and I think many with me the decision is harsh, maybe it's not to a Korean. I still stick with my original thoughts. I think there are many other unprofessional and disrespectful acts going on without any major response like this. But I guess he should have done what most other players in a game without real gain or meaning. Do a silly build or a half-assed all-in. It's a bit of a double standard though.
On December 15 2011 22:06 Soma.bokforlag wrote: to everyone out there crying your hearts out because you feel robbed of a proper "naniwa vs nestea-rematch", i think that you are better off this way.
a large reason why naniwa didnt want to play a real game versus nestea was because he felt he couldnt perform 100%, his ego simply wouldnt let him give the impression of taking the game seriously and losing. if he would have 4-gated and lost, people would still be saying "hah, i guess nestea is better than naniwa!" and im pretty confident naniwa wanted to avoid this.
so what did he do? he lost in a fashion that was impossible to interpret as if nestea was the better player.
Exactly, which is quite a douche thing to do. Nestea had trained for the game and wanted to beat Naniwa. Naniwa was playing badly and was tilted, so instead of taking the loss properly, he chickened out.
I laughed when I first read this story. Seems Naniwa has a bit of a rebellious streak in him. Not sure this is worth all the hype... as with most SC drama.
On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote: Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
I would say that this is highly likely.
The thing is, so does many other progamers. I dont have any proof, or examples, but I cant see how progaming would not attract a disproportionate amount of people who tend to be completely focused on one task, are able to drown themselves in their work, live under special circumstances and like to use computers as a buffer for social interaction.
I work with children with Asperger's/autism part time btw. So you can trust me, I am practically a doctor. >.<
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST ON A FUCKING MOPED.
It's bad enough that there is an open speculation about whether naniwa has some sort of mental disorder. But you seriously compare Asperger's syndrome with anti-social personality disorder and DARE to call yourself "practically a doctor". Do you have any idea just how offensive that is?
Anti-social personality disorder is the disorder commonly associated with psychopaths. It's characterized by (1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest (2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure (3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead (4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults (5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others (6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations (7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
It is imho one of the worst and most disrespectful thing of accusing another person of having.
Asperger's syndrome is characterized by difficulties in social interaction and "quirky" behavior. It's part of the autism spectrum (think Rain Man instead of Patrick Bateman). People with Asperger's don't lack remorse at all, they sometimes just have a hard time understanding what they did wrong in a social context and if they are irritable and aggressive, it's mostly because they panic in a social situation.
I find it disgusting to see people speculating about whether another person has a mental disorder so casually. People have been banned here just for calling other people "retards".
Way to go dude. I dont even qualify Asperger's as a mental disorder. They are different. The first guy obviously has no idea that anti-social personality disorder is a completely different thing and threw those words together to describe a diagnose that includes difficulties in social interaction.
On December 15 2011 20:50 h41fgod wrote: I work with children with Asperger's/autism part time btw. So you can trust me, I am practically a doctor. >.<
If you cannot see that this is use of the "Trust me, I'm a doctor" meme, yeah.
Your second to last paragraph describes Naniwas public behavior spot on btw.
On December 15 2011 21:03 opisska wrote: "Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread."
I am sorry, but then what is the point of this thread then? What is the point of discussion, where one point of view is banned from the beginning in pursuit of political corectness? This situation is a blatant manifestation of Korean cultural bias. Saying so is not racism or stereotyping. Denying the fact that people that have been raised in different cultures approach given situation with a different preexisting bias, because their ethical structure, which is the base for any non-data-driven decision, is different, is superificial to say the least.
I honestly think that the whole situation can be summarized by "Koreans think differently, we can either learn to live with that or make our own e-sport scene independently". Continuing with the willfull ingorance of differences in basic thinking process between people raised in euro-american and south korean background (note, I am not saying "Koreans and white dudes", it is not about appearance, but how one was being raised) will only lead to more abursd drama.
I don't know how it is in where you live but the majority of the rest of the world agrees with the Koreans. Just check the poll on the front page. Way to be wrong, buddy!
Equating the "majority of the rest of the world" and "a poll on TL" is a bold move and we need to be bold in these tough times, so I have ti give you credit for that! But I cannot help but consider the "opinion" being biased as well. Do you honestly think that all the people that voted in agreement with GOM's decision, would make such decision if it was up to them? I consider most of this to be a huge bandwagonning. Of course, there will be a non-negligible amoutn of people that do actually believe in that. But still, do you believe that the course of events would be the same if it was at MLG?
On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote: Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
Maybe you're trying not to be offensive but asking if someone is retarded is NOT OK, jesus christ.
Dude, I know English isn't your first language, but Asperger's is nothing to do with being "retarded".
Firstly, I want to state that the principal characters in this drama have all made their decisions and played their parts. Indulging in continued controversy only stands to hurt everyone involved.
On to the topic,
I think its wise to consider that rules and laws are created to try and establish two major things: that which is just, and that which is fair. At the best of times you achieve both. However, what is just and what is fair is not always the same thing, and in the worst of times you try to settle for at least one.
Is the punishment 'Just'? No. The rules and the format were not designed with a situation such as this one in mind. Ultimately, a worst case scenario evolved testing the rules and the system failed. The provisions of the tournament were not well enough designed to account for the specific conduct of Naniwa in this situation, neither player had any particular incentive to perform, and both players had cause to withdraw. Is the punishment 'Fair'? Yes. Naniwa is one of the best players in the world participating in one of the most visible competitions in the world. He was obviously aware that he was expected to play the match to its conclusion. Give his previously establish record there was an expectation of good faith that he would follow through with a competent game, and no expectation that he would or should do otherwise. Ask the simple question: Did he know he was doing something wrong or against what was expected? The truth is he did something rebellious ... something that usually exacts a consequence. Final thoughts... What stuck out most to me in the GomTV announcement was how closely they danced around the topic of 'competitive spirit' even if those exact words were not used. While the loss of this opportunity for a Code S Seed is unfortunate for Naniwa, it is a rather tidy penalty for what ultimately amounts to unsportsmanlike conduct. Furthermore, in acknowledgement to the fact that he did not break a previously written rule or policy, the penalty is temporary. Naniwa has every opportunity to continue his pro-gaming career with the GSL. This is a rare light-handed response to something that could have fairly amounted to a lifelong ban. Every major competitive institution that exists has cause to consider the conduct of their participants with grave austerity; the integrity of any sport lies in the behavior of its players.
I feel the response to this incident is balanced and appropriate. While the incident has been unfortunate and unpleasant, everyone involved (including the community) has the opportunity to learn and move forward productively. I hope we can all continue to support the game that we love.
1. What disturbed me is that he claims to work so hard to face the best players in the world and prove himself to be among the best...then he throws away a game [declines to play it] against a player who is considered to be among the best.
Sure the game was technically meaningless. But couldn't he see how blessed he was to be living his dream at that exact moment? His decision struck me as extremely impetuous.
Would have never happened if he had taken a second to reflect. Hopefully he comes back stronger from all this, and also gets a haircut.
2.
On December 16 2011 00:10 Aezuriel wrote: Is the punishment 'Just'? No. The rules and the format were not designed with a situation such as this one in mind. Ultimately, a worst case scenario evolved testing the rules and the system failed. The provisions of the tournament were not well enough designed to account for the specific conduct of Naniwa in this situation, neither player had any particular incentive to perform, and both players had cause to withdraw.
Is the punishment 'Fair'? Yes. Naniwa is one of the best players in the world participating in one of the most visible competitions in the world. He was obviously aware that he was expected to play the match to its conclusion. Give his previously establish record there was an expectation of good faith that he would follow through with a competent game, and no expectation that he would or should do otherwise. Ask the simple question: Did he know he was doing something wrong or against what was expected? The truth is he did something rebellious ... something that usually exacts a consequence.
Yeah, there may have been no specific rule for this situation, but GOM has a broad mandate to the E-Sports community to keep things professional. They shouldn't be unnecessarily hamstrung by the lack of a written rule, as long as they remain fair whenever they use their discretion.
3. I think it's impossible to make a tournament where there's no way to have any game become meaningless. I can't think of any existing format that does this!
Making up rules and acting on them with serious punishment on them would be laughed at and make everyone lose respect for the company... Not in the star craft community I suppose.
On December 15 2011 21:03 opisska wrote: "Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread."
I am sorry, but then what is the point of this thread then? What is the point of discussion, where one point of view is banned from the beginning in pursuit of political corectness? This situation is a blatant manifestation of Korean cultural bias. Saying so is not racism or stereotyping. Denying the fact that people that have been raised in different cultures approach given situation with a different preexisting bias, because their ethical structure, which is the base for any non-data-driven decision, is different, is superificial to say the least.
I honestly think that the whole situation can be summarized by "Koreans think differently, we can either learn to live with that or make our own e-sport scene independently". Continuing with the willfull ingorance of differences in basic thinking process between people raised in euro-american and south korean background (note, I am not saying "Koreans and white dudes", it is not about appearance, but how one was being raised) will only lead to more abursd drama.
I don't know how it is in where you live but the majority of the rest of the world agrees with the Koreans. Just check the poll on the front page. Way to be wrong, buddy!
Equating the "majority of the rest of the world" and "a poll on TL" is a bold move and we need to be bold in these tough times, so I have ti give you credit for that! But I cannot help but consider the "opinion" being biased as well. Do you honestly think that all the people that voted in agreement with GOM's decision, would make such decision if it was up to them? I consider most of this to be a huge bandwagonning. Of course, there will be a non-negligible amoutn of people that do actually believe in that. But still, do you believe that the course of events would be the same if it was at MLG?
Whether they would make that decision or not is irrelevant. The fact that they agree what Naniwa did was wrong is important. It shows that the values (at least in this regard) are not that different. MLG? Most likely not. They seem rather soft. Fighter from UFC doing something analogous to this? Yes. Most likely an even harsher punishment.
On December 15 2011 22:13 R_247 wrote: Sure Naniwa didn't show his most professional side and the fans were robbed of their game between those two awesome players. However the decision to deny him code-s is a rather harsh punishment no matter what you choose to call it officially.
And to be honest, from a respectfulness point of view. Isn't the manner mules, self-base nukes etc that are used to outright disrespect your opponent worse? At least if you need to uphold this high standard of respect and professionalism. And if it's only about not giving the fans their games, then this decision is even worse because now we wont get to see any Naniwa games in January.
Just my two cents. /R
No.
A Korean would probably have a lifetime ban... Not just a "declined" invite or spot. Nani is getting away "lightly" on this compared to what a Korean would get for doing something like this.
I have no idea if that's true or not. To me and I think many with me the decision is harsh, maybe it's not to a Korean. I still stick with my original thoughts. I think there are many other unprofessional and disrespectful acts going on without any major response like this. But I guess he should have done what most other players in a game without real gain or meaning. Do a silly build or a half-assed all-in. It's a bit of a double standard though.
It is true. Have you seen the video of Nal-Ra disqualified for accidentally pausing a game during a Kespa match?
Naniwa is not in his home country. He is in korea. It is by their rules he has to abide. He should have been more aware that they are taking this seriously and he should too.
This may be deviating a bit from the main discussion. But someone on Gosugamers.net posted what claimed to be a translation of a PlayXP interview with the Blizzard Cup RO6 players, specifically asking about Naniwa being out of Code S. According to that (unconfirmed) source, MC had this to say:
>MC: He did not deserve it. Code S is for the best progamers in the world. I do not see Naniwa as a progamer. I see him as a little boy.
A statement I think is particularly interesting, since MC himself earned his Code S spot the same way Naniwa did (or in fact didn't, according to GOM). he then goes on to claim Idra and Sen are unworthy, and that he will "thumbs down" them out of Code S.
Is there an official translation of these interviews?
On December 15 2011 22:09 VoirDire wrote: Anti-social personality disorder is the disorder commonly associated with psychopaths. It's characterized by (1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest (2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure (3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead (4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults (5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others (6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations (7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
lol that's like almost every guy I have ever known, some points more than others of course...
On December 15 2011 22:13 R_247 wrote: Sure Naniwa didn't show his most professional side and the fans were robbed of their game between those two awesome players. However the decision to deny him code-s is a rather harsh punishment no matter what you choose to call it officially.
And to be honest, from a respectfulness point of view. Isn't the manner mules, self-base nukes etc that are used to outright disrespect your opponent worse? At least if you need to uphold this high standard of respect and professionalism. And if it's only about not giving the fans their games, then this decision is even worse because now we wont get to see any Naniwa games in January.
Just my two cents. /R
No.
A Korean would probably have a lifetime ban... Not just a "declined" invite or spot. Nani is getting away "lightly" on this compared to what a Korean would get for doing something like this.
I have no idea if that's true or not. To me and I think many with me the decision is harsh, maybe it's not to a Korean. I still stick with my original thoughts. I think there are many other unprofessional and disrespectful acts going on without any major response like this. But I guess he should have done what most other players in a game without real gain or meaning. Do a silly build or a half-assed all-in. It's a bit of a double standard though.
It is true. Have you seen the video of Nal-Ra disqualified for accidentally pausing a game during a Kespa match?
Naniwa is not in his home country. He is in korea. It is by their rules he has to abide. He should have been more aware that they are taking this seriously and he should too.
the question is, is this something we should aim for? should we just say "thats how they do things in korea" or should we speak out when we think something is wrong?
On December 16 2011 00:50 Ponchey wrote: This may be deviating a bit from the main discussion. But someone on Gosugamers.net posted what claimed to be a translation of a PlayXP interview with the Blizzard Cup RO6 players, specifically asking about Naniwa being out of Code S. According to that (unconfirmed) source, MC had this to say:
>MC: He did not deserve it. Code S is for the best progamers in the world. I do not see Naniwa as a progamer. I see him as a little boy.
A statement I think is particularly interesting, since MC himself earned his Code S spot the same way Naniwa did (or in fact didn't, according to GOM). he then goes on to claim Idra and Sen are unworthy, and that he will "thumbs down" them out of Code S.
Is there an official translation of these interviews?
Considering that the last mistranslation lead to 200 page shit-storm, please post some source so that it can verified before starting a discussion on something like this. Otherwise, it will fuel into drama and can potentially lead another 200 pages of craptastic, circular pointless arguments.
Man this really sucks, i just wish this never happened i dont even think this punishment can be justified, but what is done is done, good luck to him in the future
On December 15 2011 22:13 R_247 wrote: Sure Naniwa didn't show his most professional side and the fans were robbed of their game between those two awesome players. However the decision to deny him code-s is a rather harsh punishment no matter what you choose to call it officially.
And to be honest, from a respectfulness point of view. Isn't the manner mules, self-base nukes etc that are used to outright disrespect your opponent worse? At least if you need to uphold this high standard of respect and professionalism. And if it's only about not giving the fans their games, then this decision is even worse because now we wont get to see any Naniwa games in January.
Just my two cents. /R
No.
A Korean would probably have a lifetime ban... Not just a "declined" invite or spot. Nani is getting away "lightly" on this compared to what a Korean would get for doing something like this.
I have no idea if that's true or not. To me and I think many with me the decision is harsh, maybe it's not to a Korean. I still stick with my original thoughts. I think there are many other unprofessional and disrespectful acts going on without any major response like this. But I guess he should have done what most other players in a game without real gain or meaning. Do a silly build or a half-assed all-in. It's a bit of a double standard though.
It is true. Have you seen the video of Nal-Ra disqualified for accidentally pausing a game during a Kespa match?
Naniwa is not in his home country. He is in korea. It is by their rules he has to abide. He should have been more aware that they are taking this seriously and he should too.
the question is, is this something we should aim for? should we just say "thats how they do things in korea" or should we speak out when we think something is wrong?
In a way, I like that approach better than MLG's "lets not enforce the no chatting in game rule". If your rules say that a player isn't allowed to pause, then yes a player should lose the game if he pauses, even accidentally. If the rules say that a player isn't allowed to chat in game then, yes, he should lose for chatting in game.
I don't think this is really relevant to NaNiwa's situation, though. He broke an unwritten code of honour rather than a black on white rule, so its a different matter entirely.
On December 16 2011 00:50 Ponchey wrote: This may be deviating a bit from the main discussion. But someone on Gosugamers.net posted what claimed to be a translation of a PlayXP interview with the Blizzard Cup RO6 players, specifically asking about Naniwa being out of Code S. According to that (unconfirmed) source, MC had this to say:
>MC: He did not deserve it. Code S is for the best progamers in the world. I do not see Naniwa as a progamer. I see him as a little boy.
A statement I think is particularly interesting, since MC himself earned his Code S spot the same way Naniwa did (or in fact didn't, according to GOM). he then goes on to claim Idra and Sen are unworthy, and that he will "thumbs down" them out of Code S.
Is there an official translation of these interviews?
Considering that the last mistranslation lead to 200 page shit-storm, please post some source so that it can verified before starting a discussion on something like this. Otherwise, it will fuel into drama and can potentially lead another 200 pages of craptastic, circular pointless arguments.
Well, yes I am aware of that, hence my use of the words "claimed", "unconfirmed" and asking for an official translation.
It must be brought up that Naniwa consented to the format of the tournament when he entered it. This includes the possibility of having to play a "meaningless game".
The fact that he probe rushed, that wasn't the issue in my eyes. When the camera shot turned to him, he is making it blatantly obvious that he doesn't care, to the extreme that one of his hands isn't on the keyboard.
On a certain level the whole scene WAS funny--
If you do something to be funny or edgy, you should be prepared for the fact that you could piss someone off. This particular stunt happened to insult the people who worked hard to make SC2 entertaining and fulfilling for viewers, and people who PLANNED the tournament to include "meaningless games".
Furthermore, the event organizers might ACTUALLY LIKE these meaningless games because players could do more novel and entertaining builds and strategies without having too much to lose.
Now they don't want to invite him to their next tournament. That's a far cry from being banned for life.
I like Naniwa and wish him the best. The best thing he can do is take his punishment in the most humble possible way and be more considerate next time. I think the world will forgive him.
On December 15 2011 22:13 R_247 wrote: Sure Naniwa didn't show his most professional side and the fans were robbed of their game between those two awesome players. However the decision to deny him code-s is a rather harsh punishment no matter what you choose to call it officially.
And to be honest, from a respectfulness point of view. Isn't the manner mules, self-base nukes etc that are used to outright disrespect your opponent worse? At least if you need to uphold this high standard of respect and professionalism. And if it's only about not giving the fans their games, then this decision is even worse because now we wont get to see any Naniwa games in January.
Just my two cents. /R
No.
A Korean would probably have a lifetime ban... Not just a "declined" invite or spot. Nani is getting away "lightly" on this compared to what a Korean would get for doing something like this.
I have no idea if that's true or not. To me and I think many with me the decision is harsh, maybe it's not to a Korean. I still stick with my original thoughts. I think there are many other unprofessional and disrespectful acts going on without any major response like this. But I guess he should have done what most other players in a game without real gain or meaning. Do a silly build or a half-assed all-in. It's a bit of a double standard though.
It is true. Have you seen the video of Nal-Ra disqualified for accidentally pausing a game during a Kespa match?
Naniwa is not in his home country. He is in korea. It is by their rules he has to abide. He should have been more aware that they are taking this seriously and he should too.
the question is, is this something we should aim for? should we just say "thats how they do things in korea" or should we speak out when we think something is wrong?
The thing is, it's specified in kespa's rules. That's why nal_ra got disqualified. Same for killer. But there is no rules about 'no probes rush'.
I have a question about possible fines. If GOM had decided to fine Naniwa, would he be obligated to pay it? Would you be okay if GOM banned him from GSL if he refused to pay?
Thanks, just read it. Still happy GOM did this, a mature thing would just be to say he doesn't want to play the match and ask if he can forfeit. That way he can find out exactly what their expectations for you are, if he didn't know, but obviously they were expecting him to play the game because they had it all set up. He made a joke out of their own show in front of a crowd and on TV/internet, and it was a big name match that lots of paying customers wanted to see. The time to voice your opinion on meaningless matches is NOT when you are in the booth.
We all have our rage moments and this was obviously one of them. i agree with naniwa that it is pointless to play a game after being eliminated but those are the rules of the tournament and should be obeyed. although naniwas actions were wrong you should not completely batter him for them. the life of a pro gamer is intense and the pressure just got to him here.
On December 16 2011 03:41 omooswald wrote: I see an emo-rage from both sides ... but only side apologizing for it ... no gsl ticket for next season for me ...
That is also what has been bothering me a lot about the whole situation, I have read pretty much every single thread on that matter yet I have not commented, and I feel like this statement shows a bit how I feel about it.
It is undeniable to me that Naniwa was in the wrong, to what extent was he in the wrong I dont know, Its hard to blame him for playing a meaningless game when youre incredibly titled, but at the same time since he was on a large stage in Korea he should have probably played it. Now, I dont care to what extent Naniwa was wrong because we actually got excuses coming personnaly from him and also from his team clearly explaining their point of view on the matter and closing it for their side.
When it comes to GOM though, all we got to me is an explanation of the situation according to their own perspective, without even aknowledging the fact that there was also some mistakes made on their side. Everyone on this site seems to believe that Korea should account for something more and we should be respectful going there (dont get me wrong, im not in disagreement with that), but why is it acceptable for a korean business to post on a foreigner site and not aknowledge the foreigners point of view. There are so much questions left open like how are the new, undisclosed rules for 2012 a good reason to modify the procedure with MLG in 2011. There was not a single point on which GOM aknowledged that they might, and just might be in the wrong, it was simply a wall of text explaining their point of view and why their point of view is the only one that should be followed.
I find this whole situation rather annoying because as much as I am tired to read about it (or am I), it just seems like GOM hasnt given us what would be necessary to close the debate.
If SlayersCoca had to forfeit his code S spot for forfeiting a game in an unrelated tournament (not to mention, also got kicked out of the Slayers house and was demoted to B-team), it's perfectly reasonable for Naniwa to lose his code S INVITE next season for forfeiting a game in a highly publicized, broadcasted GOMTV-sponsored tournament that supposedly showcases the best players in the world in 2011.
If I may add, Coca was already in the round of 16 when he forfeited his spot. Furthermore, he's not allowed to compete in any tournaments until his team deems him "ready" (whatever that means). Naniwa's "invitation" to the next season's code S was merely revoked, and he's not banned from anything. So in comparison, it's not even that bad. If anything, I think the punishment could be harsher to mirror how hard Coca got owned.
I have been quite surprised by the mixed reaction from the community and many of the pros.
The idea of a dead rubber is not a new issue in sports. Hence the term.
Many sports use round robin formats, or series, and there are often games that have to be played which mean little. But they still have to be played. Fans who pay to see the dead rubber, leagues who organize, sponsors, businesses who pay for commercials. All sound reasons, and all apply to SC2.
I have never, in my life seen a professional athlete or a sporting team throw away a game in a dead rubber situation in the way that Naniwa did. It is the sporting equivalent of running around the field whilst having a tantrum, and kicking the ball / whatever into your own goal / endzone / whatever.
It is unthinkable that a professional athlete of any calibre would act in this fashion, even in a dead rubber. It is even more unthinkable that if such a thing happened, that fellow athletes or commentators would not think a very harsh punishment is appropriate.
Naniwa was paid to play the 4th game. It was a dead rubber, but it was his job to play that game, and he did not. If he did not want to to be paid to play in a tournament where he might have to play out a dead rubber, he should not have accepted the job.
He has been punished by GOM, who obviously want their players to act professionally. I would say that GOM have acted as the must, if they wish their league to be taken seriously.
Beyond GOM, if SC2, and eSports in general wants to be taken seriously, and be regarded as an actual sport, then the players must act professionally. And that means doing the job you are paid to do, and not having a tantrum when things dont go your way.
On December 16 2011 00:59 wetcraft wrote: "It's not whether you win or lose. It's how you play the game."
I don't know. This only applies if you are an unprofessional playing for fun. These people play for money only. You really think they have fun playing the same damned game every day for 10 hours? Hell no, they don't enjoy it one bit and they probably get really sick of it. The only thing keeping some people from retiring is if they win or not. Losing players never stick around too long because most of them get undetermined by their losses so they just quit since they arent making a solid income. Being a pro is pretty bad after a while. Granted, some pros may still enjoy playing this game but most of them don't enjoy it one bit. I am not a pro, I can not speak for them but I can only assume this is what they are feeling.
I watched the game and was a little surprised since I wanted to see a grudge match style game with winner taking some bragging rights away from it. Guess that doesn't mean much.
One thing that is annoying is that the English casters seemed to find the whole situation hilarious. Laughing the whole minute long game and finding the decision great. The Korean commentators seemed a little more serious, which they should be, as this was to be a great match.
On December 16 2011 00:59 wetcraft wrote: "It's not whether you win or lose. It's how you play the game."
I don't know. This only applies if you are an unprofessional playing for fun. These people play for money only. You really think they have fun playing the same damned game every day for 10 hours? Hell no, they don't enjoy it one bit and they probably get really sick of it. The only thing keeping some people from retiring is if they win or not. Losing players never stick around too long because most of them get undetermined by their losses so they just quit since they arent making a solid income. Being a pro is pretty bad after a while. Granted, some pros may still enjoy playing this game but most of them don't enjoy it one bit. I am not a pro, I can not speak for them but I can only assume this is what they are feeling.
mr.chae disagree with you, so does boxer, and so does many people who love boxer for the same reason. and its the same reason why naniwa got so much hate. if that really wasn't the case, other pros wouldn't have left such negative comments on their tweeter. granted, not everyone thinks the same but in this case, those who think money and winning is everything is the minority.
Blizzcup: Naniwa throws a game acting a bit unprofessional and selfish, on this most agree. GOM tv punishes Naniwa by revoking his code S seed. Majority of the foreigncommunity thinks this is to harsh and thinks fine or warning would have been more appropriate. People note that seeds are given to players that has done the same in other tournaments(Idra wo, Demuslim worker rush) thinks a double standards are being applied. Further people think he is being unfairly punished without having broken any official rule."nullum lege sine crimen" Some people get mad enough that they email GOM demanding refunds.
The Code S seed GOM realizes that part of the foreigncommunity is pissed and try to calm things down. In an official statement they say that: although Naniwa didn´t directly break any rule he acted unprofessionaly and would therefore not receive a code S seed. Further they claim that Naniwa never had a Code S spot from providence due to the change in GSL format. He is still free to compete in the GSL and is not banned.
This is of course met by surprise in the community where everyone has assumed that Naniwa had a Code S spot. It´s fairly quickly established that MLG has also announced that on several places on there website. Further GOMTV:s on website states that all winners of MLG circuit events shall receive a Sode S spot, Providence was clearly such an event(recently confirmed by MLG). The announcement of change to GSL structure contained no information of the MLG contract being changed and as Tyler pointed out the new format meant no hindrance for the MLG contract to be carried out so why change it in secret without telling anyone? People believing this is imo just a bit naive.To me and most other people it is now clear that GOM lied about Naniwa not having a seed. That they revoked it without telling anyone including MLG is just not believable. People who claims that the contract was changed between Providence and Blizzcup should also ask themself if a prize already given really could be retracted without cause based on a third party agreement between GOM and MLG.
All this of course puts MLG in an awkward spot. On the one hand they have the business partner who have given them the most competitive SC2 tournament outside Korea on the other a player who misbehaved at there own tournament and at Blizzcup. If GOM had just said that they revoked Naniwas seed because of his actions they could simply have stayed out of it. GOM however claims that Naniwa never had a seed and that he broke no rules. People now demands to hear from MLG on the subject and demands are raised for MLG to enforce the contract.
MLG can never claim that Naniwa didn´t receive a code S spot it is allover their website on the other hand they dont want a fight with GOM over this issue. After pondering the issue for 24h it turns out MLG are lucky the contract could apparently be unilaterally changed by one party (as a law student I can confirm the suspicion that this is not the norm.). This effectively lets MLG of the hook, none can demand they takelegal action, they would have no case. That they thought Naniwa received a code S spot was just because GOM had not informed them that the contract between them had been changed. Hurrah!
So what should be done about all this? IMO nothing. Perhaps Naniwa was to harshly punished but imo that was still GOM:s decision to make. They based it on Korean norms and likely Korean community opinion and I personally doubt that a Korean player would have been treated any differently. There mistake came later, realizing that large parts of the foreign community thought the decision unfair they tried to lie their way out of it. Stupid, but somewhat understandable and it doesn´t mean they are evil people hating foreigners. Keeping at this issue now will imo accomplish nothing GOM will never change their decision and/or admit to lying.
I do however believe that both they and other tournaments have learnt their lessons. Rules and sanctions need to be made clearer and meaningless games avoided.
Justifiable and makes rational sense. When you're a player with televised matches to be seen by many people who are there to support you, it's not just for you, but for your fans and viewers. "We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not the Swedish youth Johan Lucchesi who plays the game well." explains the entire situation very well. Get over the drama. Naniwa will be back next GSL.
Okay this is my 2 cents on what happened. Seriously.
Naniwa was have thought to have cheated because of how he paused the game against NesTea and so on and so forth... Most of you already know this. During an interview with Naniwa, he states that he personally thought NesTea was a genius but he was just in fact an "idiot." But I give Naniwa the benefit of the doubt and I'm not going to assume whether or not it was discovered and if it blew up in Korea or not.
Naniwa was one of the few people that were invited to play in this prestigious Blizzard Cup tournament. The fact that GOMtv was involved was a big deal for they also run the SC2 games for the GSL. Many other players would kill to have this kind of spotlight for a tournament. Even so, during the interview in front of all of the players. interviewers and who knows who else was there; Naniwa said that the Blizzard Cup was "just another tournament."
Just because Naniwa has been doing well does not give him the right to throw his opinions out like that. It could be his personal view on the tournament but that shows lack of sportsmanship and respect to the people who put the time and effort into the tournament and to the fans who have been looking forward to seeing Naniwa play. I'm also pretty confident that many people also were looking forward to watching the NesTea vs. Naniwa game as well.
In addition, during the interview, NesTea basically explains why he was bothered and why he wanted to play Naniwa. He stated that Naniwa paused the game, and started the game without even mentioning it to him. To put more onto that, NesTea said that Naniwa exploited his build during the tournament. When Mr. Chae eventually translated what NesTea had said and told Naniwa, he had a puzzled look on his face. Unfortunately, no one knows if it's really true or not because even though there was an MLG representative with Naniwa's coach in the booth, there seems to be an unsettled rift in the debate there. This increases tension and excitement for viewers and for Naniwa to hurt NesTea's pride (NesTea has been training to beat Naniwa) of all of his hard work like that; it's a show of bad manner and lack of sportsmanship.
Obviously there are a lot of Starcraft 2 fans around the world and in Korea. A lot of people were tuning in to seeing this tournament with the top players (including Stephano!) duke it out for prize money. Also since NesTea mentioned his input and situation about Naniwa on air... there was bound to be expectations for his game against Naniwa.
In the end, when Naniwa and NesTea finally played together, they were both 0-3 and unfortunately out of the tournament. Naniwa thinking that he could throw away the game because he was already out is excusable but, the manner in which he did so was very disgusting.
If Naniwa continued to play simply for the sake of losing, he could have done some wack build and had lost or won. The matter of fact is that he did it in a game against NesTea. I personally believe that if it was someone else he would not have done it but with Quantic's official statement (which was revised by the way), there is no actual legitimate reason that anyone can receive but that. Although he did lose, the fact that he was probe rushing with one hand like he didn't care about the prestigious tournament was an insult and a greater slap to the face to NesTea.
I'm myself Korean and I understand the standpoint in which GOMtv has taken. Koreans take great pride in what they do and what Naniwa did was not only an insult to NesTea (who holds great esteem in the Korean community but GOMtv's actions cannot be based off of that fact) but also to the people who put in the work and effort to bring the tournament to the mass, the people who organized the cup, the managers who brought them there, and fellow friends and fans who helped push the pro-gamers to achieve the status they currently have now. What Naniwa did was an insult to what the definition of a pro-gamer is. Professional gamers do not only play for the cash payout but also because of their passion for the game itself, the respect and pride that it brings, and the passionate fans who follow them so. Therefore Naniwa did not only let himself and his reputation down, but also did so to his fans.
The fact that he was only suspended for a GSL Code S seed isn't really much of a bad thing. The reason why Koreans are good at Starcraft is because they beat themselves over the head (maybe a bit tad too much) on what they did wrong and practice it until they get it right. They hone their skills and prove themselves in the SC2 battlefield and reclaim whatever honor, pride and status they may have lost. This is why Korea is one of the most competitive SC2 countries in the world, everyone has the spirit of a winner.
Also, everyone has been saying that the penalty was too harsh but look what happened to SlayerS_CoCa. He's a fan favorite and just because he gave a game to a friend in a KSL weekly for a Code A seed, he was withdrawn from the Code S brackets. He is also currently under SlayerS management and won't be competing for a while until the team finds him capable enough to do so. What CoCa did broke the rules but it did not affect anyone else but him and his friend. What Naniwa did affected a large part of the SC2 community and although Quantic is taking a positive supportive standpoint for Naniwa; the actions they are taking are not as severe as it would have been if Naniwa was in a Korean team.
I am honestly happy about the honnesty in Nani's proberush. Nothing that infuriates me more then crappy "I am just playing this game off, but trying to fool you its the real deal". Lets face it this was never going to be an epic Naniwa nestea rematch. It was this or some crappy 4gate. I prefer the proberush, not everybody does, i understand that. I love that i can count on Nani to go all or nothing.
One argument I hear is that he should try his best.
From sports we know that is unlikely to happen at this stage in a tournament in any sport (a game that makes absolutely no difference all is already lost). Upholding a rule that people had to give it there absolute all in every game would yield quiet a lot of guilty verdicts. I don't see it as a realistic rule to have or enforce.
What about its bad for production company's, sponsors, and everyone watching etc.
We can first of all agree it was never gona be an epic game. It was this or some crap 4gate, soo i cant see why they would cast it. Since you realy cant force people to do there absolute best in all situations, you must insted settle for having a standard of minimum effort? This so that the people who dont know anything about starcraft are fooled in to thinking there watching a cut throat highlevel sc2 match, when they where really watching someone throw a game with a crappy 4gate (or whatever the standard is). The problem is the rest of us will somewhere in the game realize that "hey this isent real", and people like me get pissed of they stole 10+ minuets of my time. This has happened more then a few times. But i understand peopel and turnament organisers having a rule to ensure some kind of seriousness in the play. I would rather they dident show meaningless games but if they have to, make a rule that you have to keep some kind of standard of play.
The problem comes when they dont have that rule and get pissed of and punishes the player anyway. What happens ingame is regulated and is expected to be regulated to an extent that they are considered exhaustive rules. For a tournament to say: "ooh yeah, thats bad your not allowed to do that", and going outside of the rulebook and inflicting a punishment for an in-game situation should never happen, and not be tolerated. If for some reason it is not covered in the rules I can imagine it being ok in cases of criminal acts. This isent even close.
For people who say Nani is a douche and that he did something wrong and thereby got what he deserved. I have only one thing to say.
You might be right (I dissagre). But there where no rules against what Nani did. The rule of law is an important one in a society. Its also important in sports. If you want to make a rule about this behaviour please do GOM. But its always wrong to go outside of the rules to punish someone even if the punnichment is resonable and correct according to the general consensus. This goes in society and it goes in sports, and hopefully one day in esports. If you find an offence you cant punish by the rules but you feel should be punished, just tell the guilty party that it wont be tolerated in the future and make new rules next time.
Now it seems Gom is saying that the changed the prize in retrospect, and that thats al nice and good and thereby not any punishment to Nanniwa. For one i don't buy it not being a punishment. Two, this is almost worse. But thats another story.
The GSL has in my eyes lost so much as a professional tournament. Was going to buy a full years membership, not any more.
On December 16 2011 13:06 narkissos wrote: People note that seeds are given to players that has done the same in other tournaments(Idra wo, Demuslim worker rush) thinks a double standards are being applied.
wasn't the worker rush thing cleared with the admins of the respective tournament beforehand? I don't know when or where that happened, but quite a few people claimed that and I hear nor counterarguments.
On December 16 2011 13:06 narkissos wrote: People note that seeds are given to players that has done the same in other tournaments(Idra wo, Demuslim worker rush) thinks a double standards are being applied.
wasn't the worker rush thing cleared with the admins of the respective tournament beforehand? I don't know when or where that happened, but quite a few people claimed that and I hear nor counterarguments.
I thought the problem was with disrespecting the fans and your opponent? What have asking the admins to do with that? With that said GOM is of course free to have a different standard in their tournament and even tho I personally think the punishment to harsh I also think it was their decision to make. My only real problem was lying about it.
On December 16 2011 21:36 KaptenCulpa wrote: I am honestly happy about the honnesty in Nani's proberush. Nothing that infuriates me more then crappy "I am just playing this game off, but trying to fool you its the real deal". Lets face it this was never going to be an epic Naniwa nestea rematch. It was this or some crappy 4gate. I prefer the proberush, not everybody does, i understand that. I love that i can count on Nani to go all or nothing.
One argument I hear is that he should try his best.
From sports we know that is unlikely to happen at this stage in a tournament in any sport (a game that makes absolutely no difference all is already lost). Upholding a rule that people had to give it there absolute all in every game would yield quiet a lot of guilty verdicts. I don't see it as a realistic rule to have or enforce.
What about its bad for production company's, sponsors, and everyone watching etc.
We can first of all agree it was never gona be an epic game. It was this or some crap 4gate, soo i cant see why they would cast it. Since you realy cant force people to do there absolute best in all situations, you must insted settle for having a standard of minimum effort? This so that the people who dont know anything about starcraft are fooled in to thinking there watching a cut throat highlevel sc2 match, when they where really watching someone throw a game with a crappy 4gate (or whatever the standard is). The problem is the rest of us will somewhere in the game realize that "hey this isent real", and people like me get pissed of they stole 10+ minuets of my time. This has happened more then a few times. But i understand peopel and turnament organisers having a rule to ensure some kind of seriousness in the play. I would rather they dident show meaningless games but if they have to, make a rule that you have to keep some kind of standard of play.
The problem comes when they dont have that rule and get pissed of and punishes the player anyway. What happens ingame is regulated and is expected to be regulated to an extent that they are considered exhaustive rules. For a tournament to say: "ooh yeah, thats bad your not allowed to do that", and going outside of the rulebook and inflicting a punishment for an in-game situation should never happen, and not be tolerated. If for some reason it is not covered in the rules I can imagine it being ok in cases of criminal acts. This isent even close.
For people who say Nani is a douche and that he did something wrong and thereby got what he deserved. I have only one thing to say.
You might be right (I dissagre). But there where no rules against what Nani did. The rule of law is an important one in a society. Its also important in sports. If you want to make a rule about this behaviour please do GOM. But its always wrong to go outside of the rules to punish someone even if the punnichment is resonable and correct according to the general consensus. This goes in society and it goes in sports, and hopefully one day in esports. If you find an offence you cant punish by the rules but you feel should be punished, just tell the guilty party that it wont be tolerated in the future and make new rules next time.
Now it seems Gom is saying that the changed the prize in retrospect, and that thats al nice and good and thereby not any punishment to Nanniwa. For one i don't buy it not being a punishment. Two, this is almost worse. But thats another story.
The GSL has in my eyes lost so much as a professional tournament. Was going to buy a full years membership, not any more.
Good write up. Incredible unprofessionalism showed by GOM and I will not be supporting them further either.
On December 16 2011 21:36 KaptenCulpa wrote: I am honestly happy about the honnesty in Nani's proberush. Nothing that infuriates me more then crappy "I am just playing this game off, but trying to fool you its the real deal". Lets face it this was never going to be an epic Naniwa nestea rematch. It was this or some crappy 4gate. I prefer the proberush, not everybody does, i understand that. I love that i can count on Nani to go all or nothing.
One argument I hear is that he should try his best.
From sports we know that is unlikely to happen at this stage in a tournament in any sport (a game that makes absolutely no difference all is already lost). Upholding a rule that people had to give it there absolute all in every game would yield quiet a lot of guilty verdicts. I don't see it as a realistic rule to have or enforce.
What about its bad for production company's, sponsors, and everyone watching etc.
We can first of all agree it was never gona be an epic game. It was this or some crap 4gate, soo i cant see why they would cast it. Since you realy cant force people to do there absolute best in all situations, you must insted settle for having a standard of minimum effort? This so that the people who dont know anything about starcraft are fooled in to thinking there watching a cut throat highlevel sc2 match, when they where really watching someone throw a game with a crappy 4gate (or whatever the standard is). The problem is the rest of us will somewhere in the game realize that "hey this isent real", and people like me get pissed of they stole 10+ minuets of my time. This has happened more then a few times. But i understand peopel and turnament organisers having a rule to ensure some kind of seriousness in the play. I would rather they dident show meaningless games but if they have to, make a rule that you have to keep some kind of standard of play.
The problem comes when they dont have that rule and get pissed of and punishes the player anyway. What happens ingame is regulated and is expected to be regulated to an extent that they are considered exhaustive rules. For a tournament to say: "ooh yeah, thats bad your not allowed to do that", and going outside of the rulebook and inflicting a punishment for an in-game situation should never happen, and not be tolerated. If for some reason it is not covered in the rules I can imagine it being ok in cases of criminal acts. This isent even close.
For people who say Nani is a douche and that he did something wrong and thereby got what he deserved. I have only one thing to say.
You might be right (I dissagre). But there where no rules against what Nani did. The rule of law is an important one in a society. Its also important in sports. If you want to make a rule about this behaviour please do GOM. But its always wrong to go outside of the rules to punish someone even if the punnichment is resonable and correct according to the general consensus. This goes in society and it goes in sports, and hopefully one day in esports. If you find an offence you cant punish by the rules but you feel should be punished, just tell the guilty party that it wont be tolerated in the future and make new rules next time.
Now it seems Gom is saying that the changed the prize in retrospect, and that thats al nice and good and thereby not any punishment to Nanniwa. For one i don't buy it not being a punishment. Two, this is almost worse. But thats another story.
The GSL has in my eyes lost so much as a professional tournament. Was going to buy a full years membership, not any more.
Naniwa is very immature and tbh i hope he learns from this incident.
I agree that gom tv subcribers shouldn't be cheated out of a game just because one party doesn't want to play.
There is a lot of talk about professionalism in this threads, however mixed mainly with opinions... While ethics exists in every relationship, being professional or not, I find it hard to believe that professionalism can be maintained without formal, written rules and contracts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as i understand, there is no rules or contract between GOM.TV and players that describe a certain way the players are supposed to play their games. If a player probe rushes, 6 pools, forgets to send his workers to mine, or for example plays only with the mouse and stands up to stretch, this is not ethic, no doubt about it, but is it an act of non-professionalism, when there are no formal obligations?
There are a lot of comments, how trowing away games is bad for eSports, and makes the viewers unhappy. Well, there are many other things, that follow the same pattern and are formally a way of playing the game. Anyone remember open season 2 and Marine+SCV rushes? These games certainly weren't more exciting, then a probe rush... Was it ethic that players got to the finals with such strategies, and did this kill eSports???
I think, after the incidents with NaNiwa and Coca and after taking such severe and controversy measures, GOM.TV should take the chance to clarify, what obligations a player has, what kind of behavior is not tolerated, and mostly, as with every regulation, what kind of punishment might be expected, when not complying. Every tournament is doomed to face such situations and , without formal regulations, to take controversy actions. Please define formal rules and make clear what players risk, when they don't play the game like you want them to!
On December 16 2011 21:36 KaptenCulpa wrote: You might be right (I dissagre). But there where no rules against what Nani did. The rule of law is an important one in a society. Its also important in sports. If you want to make a rule about this behaviour please do GOM. But its always wrong to go outside of the rules to punish someone even if the punnichment is resonable and correct according to the general consensus. This goes in society and it goes in sports, and hopefully one day in esports. If you find an offence you cant punish by the rules but you feel should be punished, just tell the guilty party that it wont be tolerated in the future and make new rules next time.
Now it seems Gom is saying that the changed the prize in retrospect, and that thats al nice and good and thereby not any punishment to Nanniwa. For one i don't buy it not being a punishment. Two, this is almost worse. But thats another story.
The GSL has in my eyes lost so much as a professional tournament. Was going to buy a full years membership, not any more.
Except that there are higher courts which can set laws? New laws can be made to cover up holes and loops that the current ones have. It is even more important that the laws are doing what its purpose is.
Honestly, you should be glad that nani isn't playing at GSL because at the very least, he isn't going to get anymore hate from the korean side.
when a player comes to a tournament, sit down in a booth and plays the game, they should respect the opponent and viewer, throwing games off like this is quite disrespectful. SCV and marine rush games are actually possible to lead to win, whereas probe rush, really isn't.
I'm still waiting for a statement from GOM about this whole mess with the code S seed. They need to explain what has happened and apologize imo. If they don't say anything more then I will assume that they make up rules and punishments on the fly which is really unprofessional.
On December 17 2011 23:23 Gurgl wrote: I'm still waiting for a statement from GOM about this whole mess with the code S seed. They need to explain what has happened and apologize imo. If they don't say anything more then I will assume that they make up rules and punishments on the fly which is really unprofessional.
They don't make up rules on the fly, Naniwa did disrespect his opponent, and there shouldn't even have to be a rule in the first place.
Anything "makes up punishments on the fly" when a player acts so incredibly idiotically that no one could have predicted such an occurrence, committees usually hold hearings. As there's no real need to understand why Naniwa rushed his probes other than being mad and not thinking about anything, there's no need for a hearing.
Other than that, I'm surprised Gom was so lenient on Naniwa. I'm just glad the Blizzcup finals were so great and they made the HQ stream definitely worth the money. I almost thought I had wasted my money because Naniwa v Nestea turned out to be worthless, MC threw away a game with carriers, Stephano got elim'd in a game he wasn't playing, and Hero just got crushed.
I'm not as annoyed at Naniwa now over the probe rush, since Gom was kind of able to make up for the lack of Naniwa v Nestea. I still want to see Naniwa v Nestea and now I'm going to have to wait forever (few tournaments over the Holidays, Naniwa removed from code S, longer format so Nestea has less chances to go to foreign tournaments).
On December 17 2011 23:23 Gurgl wrote: I'm still waiting for a statement from GOM about this whole mess with the code S seed. They need to explain what has happened and apologize imo. If they don't say anything more then I will assume that they make up rules and punishments on the fly which is really unprofessional.
They don't make up rules on the fly, Naniwa did disrespect his opponent, and there shouldn't even have to be a rule in the first place.
Anything "makes up punishments on the fly" when a player acts so incredibly idiotically that no one could have predicted such an occurrence, committees usually hold hearings. As there's no real need to understand why Naniwa rushed his probes other than being mad and not thinking about anything, there's no need for a hearing.
Other than that, I'm surprised Gom was so lenient on Naniwa. I'm just glad the Blizzcup finals were so great and they made the HQ stream definitely worth the money. I almost thought I had wasted my money because Naniwa v Nestea turned out to be worthless, MC threw away a game with carriers, Stephano got elim'd in a game he wasn't playing, and Hero just got crushed.
I'm not as annoyed at Naniwa now over the probe rush, since Gom was kind of able to make up for the lack of Naniwa v Nestea. I still want to see Naniwa v Nestea and now I'm going to have to wait forever (few tournaments over the Holidays, Naniwa removed from code S, longer format so Nestea has less chances to go to foreign tournaments).
I think this whole situation clearly shows why there needs to be rules for situations like this, with clearly defined punishments. If GOM had a rule saying players must play their best in every game, otherwise they lose their position in any of GOMs leagues, there would be no need for all these speculations regarding Naniwas punishment.
Then there's the whole mess about the code S seed which is a big scandal imo, even it was all a lie to cover up the punishment of Naniwa.
GOM.TV nearly destroyed an individual E-Sport career, they nearly destroyed a persons life. And this based on vague rules and emotional behavior... this is disgusting. I can't hate GOM more.
If GOM want to be a respected organisation they have to have RULES and stick to them. Then we can talk. They are talking about the respect regarding competitions and their holy tourney, which is a honour to play in. GOM and GSL just showed that they run their organisation in a way that couldn't be respected.
GOM.TV couldn't be respected anymore by any western player or e-sports organisation, without rules they stick to.
edit: GOM is treating MLG poorly, treating Naniwa poorly, treating the community poorly. And then they punish one person in the name of "respect" nearly to throw his career? STFU GOM
GOM hosted an entertainment show and hoped it would be competitive. They actually need to host a proper tournament with a competitive format instead of choosing a format and expect the players to make it competitive. They need to treat players as players and not as entertainers.
I didn't think of it at the time because it wasn't it didn't matter but in hindsight Rain's ban from the GSL is outrageous. Rain and Idra both withdrew from the GSL. Neither got replaced yet Rain got banned for not telling them beforehand. They are competitors not actors. I agree that players should behave decently but GOM punishes players based on moral viewpoints instead of actual rules. I can't agree with the way GOM handles things.
NaNiwa was unhappy about having to play a meaningless game after having lost all of his previous games, and apparently requested that he be allowed to forfeit the match.
This is a lie. He never asked if he could forfeit the match.
On December 18 2011 01:29 Ravomat wrote: GOM hosted an entertainment show and hoped it would be competitive. They need to treat players as players and not as entertainers.
this wraps up the hole thing.
They are thinking of SC2 as an entertainment show and want make money out of it - they're fucking unprofessional!
They have to show respect to the players in first place and don't force them to play. Nobody needs GOM and the GSL. Just every other organisation could make this Tournaments and E-Sport would be just fine. But we need the player - without them there is no E-Sport.
GOM has to fucking respect the players! I would love to see if many pros would get their asses together an decline their invitations and avoid the GSL completly, until they apologize to the community and especially to Naniwa.
They nearly fucked up his whole career and life. Don't blame Naniwa - they had no RULES, they had bad format - they were unprofessional in first place.
Unprofessional rules lead to unprofessional outcomes. Stick it just to yourself GOM.
On December 16 2011 21:36 KaptenCulpa wrote: You might be right (I dissagre). But there where no rules against what Nani did. The rule of law is an important one in a society. Its also important in sports. If you want to make a rule about this behaviour please do GOM. But its always wrong to go outside of the rules to punish someone even if the punnichment is resonable and correct according to the general consensus. This goes in society and it goes in sports, and hopefully one day in esports. If you find an offence you cant punish by the rules but you feel should be punished, just tell the guilty party that it wont be tolerated in the future and make new rules next time.
Now it seems Gom is saying that the changed the prize in retrospect, and that thats al nice and good and thereby not any punishment to Nanniwa. For one i don't buy it not being a punishment. Two, this is almost worse. But thats another story.
The GSL has in my eyes lost so much as a professional tournament. Was going to buy a full years membership, not any more.
Except that there are higher courts which can set laws? New laws can be made to cover up holes and loops that the current ones have. It is even more important that the laws are doing what its purpose is.
Honestly, you should be glad that nani isn't playing at GSL because at the very least, he isn't going to get anymore hate from the korean side.
when a player comes to a tournament, sit down in a booth and plays the game, they should respect the opponent and viewer, throwing games off like this is quite disrespectful. SCV and marine rush games are actually possible to lead to win, whereas probe rush, really isn't.
Well, I study law in Sweden at Stockholm university. It says that your from Hong Kong, and I have to admit im not familiar with Chinese law. But a general rule of law is no punishment without law. This means that the courts go bye the law, and if someone is slipping by the rules doing something that you in retrospect which you had a rule against, they will just set that person free.
If then the lawmaker thinks he is cleaver and makes a new law for that offence that works retroactivly (reaches offences back in time). That is what is considerd an "ex post facto" law. The courts even, and especialy the higher ones should just set him free anyways because retroactive laws are considerd in breach with the human rights.
Exampels are The Eurpean Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, article 7.
Article 7 No punishment without law 1. No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed. 2. This Article shall not prejudice the trial and punishment of any person for any act or omission which, at the time when it was committed, was criminal according to the general principles of law recognised by civilised nations.
Se also. Article 11, paragraph 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 15, paragraph 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
In most countries there is also protection I civil cases against retroactive laws. But for example in tax laws its sometimes allowed.
I am not saying that what has been done to Nani is a human-rights violation. I just wanted to clear up that retroactive law, and punishment without law, Is frowned upon in society.
Your statement: "Except that there are higher courts which can set laws? New laws can be made to cover up holes and loops that the current ones have. It is even more important that the laws are doing what its purpose is."
I really hope this is not your view on society, but only on Starcraft tournaments. I strongly disagree in both cases.
I understand that you don't like Nani actions (might be an understatement). But is retroactive rules, or penalty's without rules really the way you want e-sports to go?