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Balance Battles is making its return on Saturday November 17th on NA! New location on ZanderFever.tv!
I'll start by saying that I don't consider this a "Tournament" so this isn't being posted in the SC2 Tournament section. I consider this more along the lines of a fun event so I'll post this in SC2 General, similar to Kings of Tin or Off The Record in terms of "general fun". And as far as advertising goes, I'm not making(or planning to make) a single cent off of this event! Anyways, enough with that...
Presents! BALANCE BATTLES!Reigning Champion:Anopob - Random - Diamond - 3 Wins - Episode 1 Mokomi - Protoss- Masters- 3 Wins - Episode 2 Previous episodes: + Show Spoiler +
Have you ever had that higher league friend that you want to play against but it just isn't fair? Ever have that lower league friend that you impose restrictions on yourself to play? Then you know exactly what I'm talking about for this event!
Hi, I'm feardragon. I'm a diamond level Protoss player and amateur caster attending Purdue University. This means I have the privilege of casting Purdue University's CSL(Collegiate Starleague) games every week, but unfortunately we got knocked out so I'm looking for something new to do on a weekly basis so I can continue to improve my casting! This is why I came up with the idea for Balance Battles!
What is Balance Battles? Well Balance Battles is a King of the Hill style arena that is live-streamed on my channel! In this, two randomly selected players will face off and the winner will stay for the next round. The objective is to stay as many games as possible. The map will be chosen from the map pool at random. But wait, why would anyone not in masters league enter this?
That's where the fun comes in! I've created a list of handicaps that will be imposed on players based on their and their opponent's league. What this means is, a bronze level player will have a fighting chance of taking out a masters league player, and so on and so forth! Sounds more interesting now? Well take a look at the list of handicaps I've come up with for now. I'll note that a "unit" means a non-worker unit and that a "worker" involves anything that can mine(MULE's included): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aku9XbcmLY70dHZfQW9NSDQwRldrQmlPTHloLXZFaHc
Well what do you win? For now, I don't intend to have a prize. This first event is going to be a test run to see how things go, and to give some of these handicaps a chance to be balanced out a bit. If there is enough interest, I will start to offer out some fabulous prizes(most likely small amounts of cash). There has been some suggestions to give the winner some space on my stream or do an interview that I'd play during the breaks and such to give them some fame and air time! I really like that idea so let me know what you think about that! But don't fret about money! Participation in the event is completely free so there's no reason not to join!
So come on over! The next event will take place on Saturday November 17th, 5pm Eastern, 2pm Pacific. Here's the link to the stream everything will take place on: http://www.twitch.tv/zanderfever2
To participate: Go ahead and join the chat channel "BalanceBattle" on Starcraft when the event starts. Unfortunately for now, this event will only take place on North America. If this somehow magically garners enough interest, I will look into doing this on the EU as well!
Some Other Notes: Restrictions are still up for balancing so please feel free to put up suggestions and comments about the current restrictions before and after the event. Keep in mind when making suggestions that only restrictions that can be monitored can be used. For example, I would love to do an Off The Record style restriction of putting someone in a bear suit or telling them they can't use their keyboard, but because I have no way of monitoring this, I can't impose these restrictions. Participation in the event is completely free and no ads will be run on my stream. I'm doing this because I absolutely love casting and want more opportunities to practice it, so this is going to be a weekly event!
Additional rules and definitions: In the ruleset, I'm considering a unit anything that does not mine with observers and overseers excluded. Workers are considered anything that mines(including MULEs). Queens do not break the unit restriction as long as there is only one per hatchery. If a player wins two matches in a row, they will be subject to a higher league handicap or their opponent will have a lower league handicap. In the case of this with Masters vs Bronze, two restrictions will be applied to the Masters player. The caster also reserves the right to call a winner in a draw-situation. Voting from the chat for said situation will be likely.
Lastly, if you're interested in checking out some of my casting, you can find my youtube channel at: http://www.youtube.com/feardragon64 . I consistently release Starcraft casts there so if you like my commentary, please follow me on my twitch channel and subscribe to my youtube page. =]
Hope you guys decide to participate and/or tune in! I'm highly accepting of feedback on both the event and my own casting so please feel free to leave it in the comments and I'll be sure to read it! Thanks! <3
Edit: Changed image of handicaps to an excel spreadsheet for easy changing.
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Too bad it's NA only. Also you should've posted this into the Tourneys section, PM a mod to move it EDIT: Took a look at your handicap table, there's one that's pretty bad, gold vs bronze, may not use any detection at all. So basically the bronze player can just make a dt/banshee and win, nothing the goldie can do about it?
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Thanks for the quick response.
Hmm, I felt this wasn't really a tournament. More just a fun event but I suppose if it really just comes across as one, I'll ask a mod to move the thread.
As for the handicap you pointed out, I see your point. Maybe I should change it to only static detection such as cannons, turrets and spore crawlers(no observers, ravens, overseers or scans)? Let me know what you think!
P.S. I'm thinking that for a more dynamic way to show everything, I might just link an excel spreadsheet that I can update with the handicaps instead of having to update an image.
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On April 15 2012 07:39 feardragon wrote: Thanks for the quick response.
Hmm, I felt this wasn't really a tournament. More just a fun event but I suppose if it really just comes across as one, I'll ask a mod to move the thread.
As for the handicap you pointed out, I see your point. Maybe I should change it to only static detection such as cannons, turrets and spore crawlers(no observers, ravens, overseers or scans)? Let me know what you think!
P.S. I'm thinking that for a more dynamic way to show everything, I might just link an excel spreadsheet that I can update with the handicaps instead of having to update an image. Yeah static detection only would be ok for a hancicap. Looking like this might be pretty fun, I'll surely check it out as it's something new and exciting
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This sounds entirely hillarious, the NA constraint will deny me access though,
Very much good luck and i sincerely hope that the sucsess will expand this great undertaking to feudal and occasinally tribal europe
Much respect to you sir!
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I understand that this event is purely for fun, yet those handicaps are really imbalanced ^.^
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On April 15 2012 07:50 Quimstr wrote: I understand that this event is purely for fun, yet those handicaps are really imbalanced ^.^
If you try to watch some bronze players, for example on lifesaglitchtv, you will come to realise that this will still be an upphill battle for the fine alloy people out there
Also OP i think you should try to take really hard precausions against smurfs in this tournament, as they are experts in the craft of ruining the fun of these kinds of events.
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The only one I have a problem with is that Gold vs Bronze, gold can not use any form of detection.
Seems kind of insta win if Bronze just makes one Dark Templar
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This seems pretty interesting! However I would recommend changing the masters->diamond handicap in someway, right now it seems like every attack will have to be all-in and that probably won't make for any interesting/fun games (I'm thinking for example TvZ 2rax all-in every game). Also, the 50% handicap I think is too strong, but I'm not sure how much you have tried these handicaps so nvm if you think they're okay :/
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The master vs plat handicap of 50% hp units is pretty hard... you pretty much have to go P and hope your opponent isn't P. The gold and silver handicaps are easier challenges even if you had them while playing a plat.
I would take out the "may only have 20 supply army" as that's sorta hard to regulate(you just dq them if they make one unit too many?) and it doesn't really help the silver that much anyways unless you add no rush to it. I think the plat level challenge would probably be more appropriate for silver vs master.
I like the idea though ^^ and it's a cool way of having it so everyone can play.
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Thanks for the feedback! It's good to see there's some interest outside of NA! I do have two accounts and if there is enough interest, I will look into moving one of my accounts to EU to hold this event there. So stay tuned and express interest if you're on the EU server! You can at least check out the stream. =]
Updated the handicap list to an excel spreadsheet for easier updating of ideas.
On April 15 2012 07:59 Nibbler89 wrote: The master vs plat handicap of 50% hp units is pretty hard... you pretty much have to go P and hope your opponent isn't P. The gold and silver handicaps are easier challenges even if you had them while playing a plat. Hmm, I'll look into this one. Thanks for the feedback! I'll see if I can make it a bit more fair. Maybe you would suggest swapping them around?
On April 15 2012 07:59 Nibbler89 wrote:I would take out the "may only have 20 supply army" as that's sorta hard to regulate(you just dq them if they make one unit too many?) and it doesn't really help the silver that much anyways unless you add no rush to it. I think the plat level challenge would probably be more appropriate for silver vs master. The way I intended to regulate a lot of these was if a rule was broken, I would(as a ref in the match) tell them that they had to kill off some of their army. A similar thing would work for a lot of the other rules such as: you can't expand until you scout your opponent's expansion. I would tell them in chat they needed to cancel/kill their own expansion or they would be dq'd. I will look into swapping the handicap with the Silver vs Master matchup though! Thanks!
On April 15 2012 07:59 Nibbler89 wrote: I like the idea though ^^ and it's a cool way of having it so everyone can play. Thanks! I hope you decide to come or tune in! =D
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oo this sounds like an awesome event!
I have one suggestion tho. If all the handicaps are preset, then each player will be playing a very similar game each round. Why don't you have a large list of minor handicaps, and then the lower league player choose a number of handicaps equal to league difference. Then players can strategize according to chosen handicaps, and maybe even find good combos between handicaps.
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50% hp units is completly broken, just a move your workers = freewin. Even 90% is still broken and i think a platinum player can pull off a 12drone rush.
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On April 15 2012 08:03 Chairman Ray wrote: oo this sounds like an awesome event!
I have one suggestion tho. If all the handicaps are preset, then each player will be playing a very similar game each round. Why don't you have a large list of minor handicaps, and then the lower league player choose a number of handicaps equal to league difference. Then players can strategize according to chosen handicaps, and maybe even find good combos between handicaps. I really like this idea! I might try this in the future but the only thing I'd be wary about would be that every handicap would have to be pretty equal or the same issue would come up with people picking the same set of handicaps every game anyways. But thanks for the suggestion! It's definitely something I'll look into.
On April 15 2012 08:12 idonthinksobro wrote: 50% hp units is completly broken, just a move your workers = freewin. Even 90% is still broken and i think a platinum player can pull off a 12drone rush. I'll look into this one. From personal experience, I was in Plat for a while and I've played, between super macro and better micro, it's doable but do you think maybe the handicap should just lowered to 70%?
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Master still easily beats a platinum player with 70% handicap. I have done multiple games vs diamonds with 70% handicap and won them all but could see how I could possibly lose at least. No way a platinum would beat me if I only had a 70% handicap (maybe with some crazy cheese though but those would be a waste to cast)
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Wow, this sounds really intersting.
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So a master vs a bronze means the master player must defeat the bronze player with workers, and once the bronze player has air units, it's GG?
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On April 15 2012 08:46 Tarz wrote: So a master vs a bronze means the master player must defeat the bronze player with workers, and once the bronze player has air units, it's GG? This is actually a really good point. I'm going to have to think about this one. Going into that, it will also really limit detection for a protoss player. Maybe no defensive structures until the 12 minute mark? I mainly want to prevent players from just cannon rushing, but I suppose if it gets to the 12 minute mark, it's going to be near impossible to win without some kind of damage dealing unit. I think that if there is a cloaked unit or an air unit, a masters player should be able to out macro the damage before they can get up the cannons against a bronzie. =] Does that sound fair?
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Seems like a very good concept. Props.
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A lot of these handicaps are absurd. I can tell you now that the gold/silver handicap is broken, any silver can win that match with no effort. Perhaps change it to "only units out of one type of building at a time"? [EG: Terran: Starport, Protoss: Robo Facility, Zerg: Lairtech]
I also feel as though the handicap is a little too severe for diamonds facing plats, as it encourages all-ins and that manner of not fun things.
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On April 15 2012 08:52 feardragon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 08:46 Tarz wrote: So a master vs a bronze means the master player must defeat the bronze player with workers, and once the bronze player has air units, it's GG? This is actually a really good point. I'm going to have to think about this one. Going into that, it will also really limit detection for a protoss player. Maybe no defensive structures until the 12 minute mark? I mainly want to prevent players from just cannon rushing, but I suppose if it gets to the 12 minute mark, it's going to be near impossible to win without some kind of damage dealing unit. I think that if there is a cloaked unit or an air unit, a masters player should be able to out macro the damage before they can get up the cannons against a bronzie. =] Does that sound fair?
But then again, in a diamond vs bronze matchup, the only option the diamond has is to do a defensive structure push, as the diamon player can't make any unit. I really can't see workers defeating air units, collossi or banelings... (Maybe banelings, but not the other two) No units at all seems quite extreme.
Also, the master vs gold restriction is huge for zergs and protoss, but for terrans, it seems much less restrictive.
So maybe something like, "your army supply may, at most, be equal to how many minutes the game has lasted".
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On April 15 2012 07:59 Anopob wrote: This seems pretty interesting! However I would recommend changing the masters->diamond handicap in someway, right now it seems like every attack will have to be all-in and that probably won't make for any interesting/fun games (I'm thinking for example TvZ 2rax all-in every game). Also, the 50% handicap I think is too strong, but I'm not sure how much you have tried these handicaps so nvm if you think they're okay :/
If your on EU and playing a mid-low master terran and your zerg, 90% of the time they do some sort of all in w/ SCV's, nothing changes from normal ladder.
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On April 15 2012 09:07 Tarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 08:52 feardragon wrote:On April 15 2012 08:46 Tarz wrote: So a master vs a bronze means the master player must defeat the bronze player with workers, and once the bronze player has air units, it's GG? This is actually a really good point. I'm going to have to think about this one. Going into that, it will also really limit detection for a protoss player. Maybe no defensive structures until the 12 minute mark? I mainly want to prevent players from just cannon rushing, but I suppose if it gets to the 12 minute mark, it's going to be near impossible to win without some kind of damage dealing unit. I think that if there is a cloaked unit or an air unit, a masters player should be able to out macro the damage before they can get up the cannons against a bronzie. =] Does that sound fair? But then again, in a diamond vs bronze matchup, the only option the diamond has is to do a defensive structure push, as the diamon player can't make any unit. I really can't see workers defeating air units, collossi or banelings... (Maybe banelings, but not the other two) No units at all seems quite extreme. Also, the master vs gold restriction is huge for zergs and protoss, but for terrans, it seems much less restrictive. So maybe something like, "your army supply may, at most, be equal to how many minutes the game has lasted". I have quite a few bronze level friends and I've actually tried this restriction on myself. Honestly, it usually ends up being a pretty even game. This is as terran, Toss and Zerg. I'll definitely keep thinking about this and if I continue to receive similar feedback, I'll change it.
As for the Masters vs Gold matchup, I really like your idea. I think it works out much more eloquently than my way. Adding it!
On April 15 2012 09:19 Hiea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 07:59 Anopob wrote: This seems pretty interesting! However I would recommend changing the masters->diamond handicap in someway, right now it seems like every attack will have to be all-in and that probably won't make for any interesting/fun games (I'm thinking for example TvZ 2rax all-in every game). Also, the 50% handicap I think is too strong, but I'm not sure how much you have tried these handicaps so nvm if you think they're okay :/ If your on EU and playing a mid-low master terran and your zerg, 90% of the time they do some sort of all in w/ SCV's, nothing changes from normal ladder. I just thought of a really interesting fix for this. How about instead of you must pull 10 workers, it becomes you must kill 10 of your own workers! It would promote longer term play since 10 workers early on is rough in comparison to late game. Thoughts?
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On April 15 2012 09:25 feardragon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 09:19 Hiea wrote:On April 15 2012 07:59 Anopob wrote: This seems pretty interesting! However I would recommend changing the masters->diamond handicap in someway, right now it seems like every attack will have to be all-in and that probably won't make for any interesting/fun games (I'm thinking for example TvZ 2rax all-in every game). Also, the 50% handicap I think is too strong, but I'm not sure how much you have tried these handicaps so nvm if you think they're okay :/ If your on EU and playing a mid-low master terran and your zerg, 90% of the time they do some sort of all in w/ SCV's, nothing changes from normal ladder. I just thought of a really interesting fix for this. How about instead of you must pull 10 workers, it becomes you must kill 10 of your own workers! It would promote longer term play since 10 workers early on is rough in comparison to late game. Thoughts?
I like it, and if the masterplayer is attacked, he must send 10 workers out to suicide. Would be a though one vs 7pool though. But hey, they are masters, they should be able to handle it!
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How do you plan to enforce these handicaps? Will you be using custom maps for this? I mean, what if a player does something -- i.e. unintentionally because he momentarily forgot -- that violates the handicap, will you as the caster spot this in time and end the game and the casting in favor of the non-handicapped player?
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Not a huge fan of the exclamation points everywhere, but that's the least of my concerns lol.
As some have already said, I think some of these are far too extreme. I think as a diamond player you should get a hold of a lower league account and try these on the ladder and see how they work.
I played in the bronze league today and tried to win with just workers. vs T, a planetary in a choke with a few scvs is literally impossible to kill. Tech to bcs on 1 base, and you win. Since you can't build any defensive structures, there's 0 protection from air, and I feel it's pretty unwinnable. I ended up winning that game by turret pushing into his main after I pretty much mined out the entire map (antiga) with about 25 orbitals and after he was completely mined out. Fair? Maybe. Fun to watch? Not in the slightest. I think this one needs reworking for sure. Playing with a severe handicap like 50% is way more fair. All in all I think the masters league handicaps are far too difficult.
Some ideas I think you should play around with: -Requiring that every building must be proxied (or at least not built in main, may or may not include gas) -A cap on workers -Disallowing of certain upgrades -Disallowing of certain units -Zerg may only produce attacking units once the attacking force is spotted (most likely from a watch tower) -If terran uses stim, they must use it twice (instead of just hitting "t", they must hit "t" "t")
Also, if you want to turn this into a more "educational" experience, you might want to consider some restrictive priority lists, for example during engagements, x player must kill units in this order (this teaches the other player to try to protect those units better).
just some thoughts, i hope this goes well
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On April 15 2012 08:36 Powster wrote: Master still easily beats a platinum player with 70% handicap. I have done multiple games vs diamonds with 70% handicap and won them all but could see how I could possibly lose at least. No way a platinum would beat me if I only had a 70% handicap (maybe with some crazy cheese though but those would be a waste to cast) ~_~ with p right? P has highest hp units and if you do timing attack your army value will almost always be higher. Try 50 or 70% as t or z vs plat / diamond 4 gate and see how it goes. Like I said, it pretty much just forces the player to play P when you go heavy on unit % handicap. Which can be a decent reason to just come up with different / more creative handicaps.
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On April 15 2012 09:43 Proseat wrote: How do you plan to enforce these handicaps? Will you be using custom maps for this? I mean, what if a player does something -- i.e. unintentionally because he momentarily forgot -- that violates the handicap, will you as the caster spot this in time and end the game and the casting in favor of the non-handicapped player?
I think I mentioned this in an earlier post, but I'm trying to make the handicaps easily enforceable in the game. Things such as, you're not allowed to make more than x supply of a unit, will be enforced by messaging the player in game(since everything will be live) and telling them they must kill off some supply. All of the handicaps should have some immediate solution in game if I announce it. Some of them might suck(like having to kill off your nexus), but I think that's fair since they did make the mistake of breaking the rules in the first place.
On April 15 2012 09:44 phiinix wrote: Not a huge fan of the exclamation points everywhere, but that's the least of my concerns lol.
As some have already said, I think some of these are far too extreme. I think as a diamond player you should get a hold of a lower league account and try these on the ladder and see how they work.
I played in the bronze league today and tried to win with just workers. vs T, a planetary in a choke with a few scvs is literally impossible to kill. Tech to bcs on 1 base, and you win. Since you can't build any defensive structures, there's 0 protection from air, and I feel it's pretty unwinnable. I ended up winning that game by turret pushing into his main after I pretty much mined out the entire map (antiga) with about 25 orbitals and after he was completely mined out. Fair? Maybe. Fun to watch? Not in the slightest. I think this one needs reworking for sure. Playing with a severe handicap like 50% is way more fair. All in all I think the masters league handicaps are far too difficult.
Some ideas I think you should play around with: -Requiring that every building must be proxied (or at least not built in main, may or may not include gas) -A cap on workers -Disallowing of certain upgrades -Disallowing of certain units -Zerg may only produce attacking units once the attacking force is spotted (most likely from a watch tower) -If terran uses stim, they must use it twice (instead of just hitting "t", they must hit "t" "t")
Also, if you want to turn this into a more "educational" experience, you might want to consider some restrictive priority lists, for example during engagements, x player must kill units in this order (this teaches the other player to try to protect those units better).
just some thoughts, i hope this goes well
Thanks for the awesome feedback. I love that you're including suggestions for other handicaps as that's really useful to me since the starting suggestions were very much limited by what I could think of myself.
I definitely get your issues with some of the bronze ones probably not being very fun to watch. That's a really good point. If the bronze player manages to get out a couple of tanks in time, it's going to be very difficult to push. I might have a "special" end condition where if the game goes past the X minute mark, the handicapped player can get Y supply of some random unit. I think I might go with that kind of fix before I toss the idea out the window. If it ends up being exactly as you say though, with no fix being found, I'll probably default to your advice and try to come up with some other handicaps. =] Thanks.
Also, I love the idea to turn it into an educational experience. I'm not sure how well the kill units in ___ order can be regulated, but the general idea of coming up with more "forced" educational experiences sounds awesome. I'm definitely going to think about that.
And I apologize for the exclamation marks. I get excited!
On April 15 2012 10:37 Nibbler89 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 08:36 Powster wrote: Master still easily beats a platinum player with 70% handicap. I have done multiple games vs diamonds with 70% handicap and won them all but could see how I could possibly lose at least. No way a platinum would beat me if I only had a 70% handicap (maybe with some crazy cheese though but those would be a waste to cast) ~_~ with p right? P has highest hp units and if you do timing attack your army value will almost always be higher. Try 50 or 70% as t or z vs plat / diamond 4 gate and see how it goes. Like I said, it pretty much just forces the player to play P when you go heavy on unit % handicap. Which can be a decent reason to just come up with different / more creative handicaps. I think I'm going to try it out with a 50% handicap vs plat. I see your point with protoss being favored, but I think it might be a bit more balanced than you think. If it ends up not working out, I will definitely try and rebalance the handicap. And of course, if there's another better handicap that can be suggested, feel free to post it!
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It's a really awesome idea. Although it seems pretty difficult to fine tune the various handicaps, don't get discouraged. It's just for fun, anyway, and I'd love to participate
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50% cap with zerg dies by any mid-level plat terran/toss with 2 rax/ ffe 6 gate. seiged tanks 1 shot literally every unit in zerg save the ultralisk and the queen (maybe hydra lives).
-I think a cool handicap would be no upgrades for units (No speedlings, blink, colo range etc.) for plat vs masters
-80% cap is a reasonable handicap for 2 league differences usually.(when i play with my friends who are about 2 leagues down, but still very tough for zerg players.)
-No rally points set for units (Protoss can't warp in outside of base). Masters vs diamond? Diamond vs plat?
-Expos must be one hex off is not much of a handicap (It's about only a marginal income deficit on expos.)
-Terrans must only mech vs protoss, and must only bio vs zerg. Protoss must only air vs terran, and must only gateway-army vs zerg. Zerg must only get ranged units vs terran (roach/hydra/queen/muta/corrouptor/ NO BL since broodlings are melee), may not have queens vs protoss.
-You must declare in a poetic fashion that you are about to attack 1 minute before you move out.
-The opponent is told by the referee that certain major structures/(techs are being placed) every 1 minutes. e.g. "he's planting down a roach warren now. He's getting speed." "he's getting a 7 pool." "4 rax placed."
just my humble potential suggestions :S
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Near leagues, silver/gold: Can only move army in dropships unless it's between your own bases. So any large attack would have to wait until a large number of ships are made. Wouldn't be a huge detriment to Terran if they're going bio though.
Close leagues, plat/silver maybe: One handicap could be to force a player to get a "useless" upgrade before attack/expand. Forces them to spend gas/time. Terran must get Medivac energy upgrade before expanding for example. Or must have 2-0 air upgrades....and can't build air units. Something like that.
Far leagues, plat/bronze: Must expand to opponents side of the map (most maps it should be obvious). Cannot build defensive structures at expansions. Spreads out their army, making it easier for attacks. Or, can only have one tech structure in your main base...so one rax/gate/pool in the main. Rest must be built elsewhere. Kinda sucks for Zerg...but would force creep spread over larva if they want to tech up at all.
I would say for most matchups, you might want to include "no lifting to retreat" if the higher player is Terran. I'd say anything out of 1 league level should have this. It would stop the ever fun game of "whack-a-rax" :D And unless you're going to call GG on games, it would keep the bronze player from lifting to the corner against the masters who can't build units.
It sounds interesting, if I can I'll try to show up. If not, hope there will be some VODs somewhere
[EDIT] Put in better order
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the entire handicap structure needs to be COMPLETELY redone, IMO...
if any masters / diamond players enter this tourney, they are screwed against anyone in or under gold league... seriously?
Army supply cannot be over the amount of minutes passed? any sort of attack whatsoever will kill them, period. think about it... 15 minutes, 15 marines?
Masters -> Bronze... you may not produce units? wtf?
I like the idea, but the handicaps are fucking horrible.
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On April 15 2012 11:08 jubil wrote: It's a really awesome idea. Although it seems pretty difficult to fine tune the various handicaps, don't get discouraged. It's just for fun, anyway, and I'd love to participate Thanks! I won't be. I'll be casting even if two people show up!
On April 15 2012 11:09 rauk wrote: ravi hwaiting Hi Ying! <3
On April 15 2012 11:24 mikiao wrote: Near leagues, silver/gold: Can only move army in dropships unless it's between your own bases. So any large attack would have to wait until a large number of ships are made. Wouldn't be a huge detriment to Terran if they're going bio though.
Close leagues, plat/silver maybe: One handicap could be to force a player to get a "useless" upgrade before attack/expand. Forces them to spend gas/time. Terran must get Medivac energy upgrade before expanding for example. Or must have 2-0 air upgrades....and can't build air units. Something like that.
Far leagues, plat/bronze: Must expand to opponents side of the map (most maps it should be obvious). Cannot build defensive structures at expansions. Spreads out their army, making it easier for attacks. Or, can only have one tech structure in your main base...so one rax/gate/pool in the main. Rest must be built elsewhere. Kinda sucks for Zerg...but would force creep spread over larva if they want to tech up at all.
I would say for most matchups, you might want to include "no lifting to retreat" if the higher player is Terran. I'd say anything out of 1 league level should have this. It would stop the ever fun game of "whack-a-rax" :D And unless you're going to call GG on games, it would keep the bronze player from lifting to the corner against the masters who can't build units.
It sounds interesting, if I can I'll try to show up. If not, hope there will be some VODs somewhere
[EDIT] Put in better order I thought about the dropship idea but I wasn't sure how well it would work out. and for which matchup. There was also that same issue with Terran not really having much impairment whereas a Protoss would have a HUGE impairment(getting 30 supply in warp prisms late game?). I love the idea though and if there's another cool way to make it work, let me know!
The "useless" upgrade idea is a neat one, but I think it's a bit harder to enforce and imposes unexpected restrictions. Let's say a protoss gets +2 air weapons....but later in the game wants to get some stargate units. Are they not allowed to get it anymore? There also would be some issues with running out of "useless upgrades" and arbitrary definitions for "useless." I like the general sentiment of doing something unnecessary though, so maybe we can build something off of that!
As for the "no lifting to retreat", you bring up a really good point. I think what I might end up doing is having some kind of vote from chat on if the game is over or if the game's ending is just getting delayed, obviously with myself getting the final say. It will kinda suck to have that arbitrary rule in place, but since it's free entry and mostly for fun and potentially very small amounts of money, I don't think it'll be an issue. Thanks for pointing that out though.
Lastly, there will definitely be vods over on my youtube channel! http://www.youtube.com/feardragon64
On April 15 2012 11:21 desarrisc wrote: 50% cap with zerg dies by any mid-level plat terran/toss with 2 rax/ ffe 6 gate. seiged tanks 1 shot literally every unit in zerg save the ultralisk and the queen (maybe hydra lives).
-I think a cool handicap would be no upgrades for units (No speedlings, blink, colo range etc.) for plat vs masters
-80% cap is a reasonable handicap for 2 league differences usually.(when i play with my friends who are about 2 leagues down, but still very tough for zerg players.)
-No rally points set for units (Protoss can't warp in outside of base). Masters vs diamond? Diamond vs plat?
-Expos must be one hex off is not much of a handicap (It's about only a marginal income deficit on expos.)
-Terrans must only mech vs protoss, and must only bio vs zerg. Protoss must only air vs terran, and must only gateway-army vs zerg. Zerg must only get ranged units vs terran (roach/hydra/queen/muta/corrouptor/ NO BL since broodlings are melee), may not have queens vs protoss.
-You must declare in a poetic fashion that you are about to attack 1 minute before you move out.
-The opponent is told by the referee that certain major structures/(techs are being placed) every 1 minutes. e.g. "he's planting down a roach warren now. He's getting speed." "he's getting a 7 pool." "4 rax placed."
just my humble potential suggestions :S
Thanks for the ideas! I think I've gotten a substantial enough amount of feedback disliking the 50% handicap idea so I'm just going to replace it with your fabulous no upgrades idea. I think this will be a pretty interesting(and awesome) impairment seeing as Protoss won't have warpgate, thermal lance, psy storm, etc. Zerg won't have speedlings, speed roaches, armor upgrades, etc. Terran won't have stim, combat shields, concussive, cloak for banshee, etc. That sounds like a pretty fun game.
I do like your other suggestions but enforcement seems like it'll be a bit of an issue. I think the other handicap I really like is having the "maphack" announcements. I'm going to have to look into seeing if there's a way I can just straight up give someone vision. Awesome idea!
Keep the ideas coming guys! Thanks for all of them. Hopefully by the time of the event, we can have a rule list that people will feel is relatively fair and fun. =]
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NA only!? Sounds epic tho haha. I might buy an NA account just to participate ^^
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Your army supply may, at most, be equal to how many minutes the game has lasted
Did I get that wrong? 15 minutes into the game, you're stuck with 15 marines / 7 stalkers or somesuch? Wouldn't that be worse than the silver requirement of 20 army supply since most games don't last 20 minutes?
You must attack move engagements and type a poem whenever a battle occurs!
This one is awesome :D
Good luck with the tournament.
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Most of these handicaps are awesome. Please keep them. The big picture: You're doing a good job.
Nevertheless, the changes I personally would make:
Masters vs. Bronze, Diamond vs. Bronze: I know how HUGE the handicap has to be to make this battle an actual battle, but what you're doing is fundamentally restricting the player's ability to play the game AT ALL. What I would recommend here is sharply reducing their ability to play the game in the core elements of micro and macro, but still let them fight.
Masters vs. Bronze: "You may only have one worker per minute, plus your additional six workers. Attack-move all engagements."
Diamond vs. Bronze: "See Masters vs. Bronze, however you may cast exactly two spells during each engagement."
Masters vs. Gold: "You may only have army supply equal to double the minutes on the game clock."
Diamond vs. Gold: "Your expansions must be two hexes off."
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Seems awesome, though the Plat/dia/masters vs Bronze ones are a bit... off. I mean what if it's a zerg and they just 6-pool? Any bronze can 6-pool. Also Masters vs Gold. Protoss, any protoss can get their 4-gate to hit before 7 minutes, and with only 7 army supply.... what?
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This sounds like fun and I may join in. My suggestion is a restrictioin that you can't use MULES, Chronoboost, or Injections
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As much as I love this concept, some of these handicaps are beyond broken and just ridiculous. Like, "no defensive structures or units until the 12 minute mark", it doesn't matter if it's Master vs Bronze, your opponent knows of your handicaps, he can just litterally six pool and keep building lings for 10 minutes before a-clicking >.>
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"diamond vs gold: Expos must be one hex off" i think this will make it too easy for the diamond player;; only affecting expos and it seems like too small a loss of income.
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Cool concept, but some of these balance ideas are kind of ridiculous lol.
Especially Master vs. Bronze... Bronze should actually never lose o.O Just make a few tier one units.
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I think the masters vs plat (no uprades) is not severe enough. The masters player can just go for any early rush since that usually doesn't require upgrades. I like the general concept though. Having non standard games is always fun to watch for me.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2012 19:06 Demicore wrote:Show nested quote +Your army supply may, at most, be equal to how many minutes the game has lasted Did I get that wrong? 15 minutes into the game, you're stuck with 15 marines / 7 stalkers or somesuch? Wouldn't that be worse than the silver requirement of 20 army supply since most games don't last 20 minutes? This one is awesome :D Good luck with the tournament. I initially envisioned that the Masters league player would just need to constantly exchange or harass with their units(like get a zealot, then a stalker, suicide attack the zealot in with the stalker to pick off units and make a sentry, go for dark templar, etc. etc. But I think you're right. This handicap is worse than the Silver league one. I think I'll swap the Masters vs Gold with Masters vs Silver and increase it to 30 supply. Thanks. =]
+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2012 19:44 Salivanth wrote: Most of these handicaps are awesome. Please keep them. The big picture: You're doing a good job.
Nevertheless, the changes I personally would make:
Masters vs. Bronze, Diamond vs. Bronze: I know how HUGE the handicap has to be to make this battle an actual battle, but what you're doing is fundamentally restricting the player's ability to play the game AT ALL. What I would recommend here is sharply reducing their ability to play the game in the core elements of micro and macro, but still let them fight.
Masters vs. Bronze: "You may only have one worker per minute, plus your additional six workers. Attack-move all engagements."
Diamond vs. Bronze: "See Masters vs. Bronze, however you may cast exactly two spells during each engagement."
Masters vs. Gold: "You may only have army supply equal to double the minutes on the game clock."
Diamond vs. Gold: "Your expansions must be two hexes off."
Thanks for the good words! I know there are still a lot of issues, and my goal is to have an eventually balanced set of rules. I'm not so naive that I think I can easily balance such a complex game to certain skill levels in a short period of time with no testing.
I think you have a good point in the Masters vs Bronze and Diamond vs Bronze. I'm starting to realize that they will result in overly limited games for the higher league players, and ultimately not be much fun. I'm thinking about instead restricting it 8 mining workers per base and no rush for 7 minutes for masters league players. Diamond league would get 12 workers per base, 7 minute no rush. With this, I'd implement another change to plat. Instead of saying no defensive structures allowed, I would change it to: you cannot LEAVE your base until the 7 minute mark. Hopefully someone can comment on these restrictions. + Show Spoiler +On April 15 2012 20:00 Sorathez wrote: Seems awesome, though the Plat/dia/masters vs Bronze ones are a bit... off. I mean what if it's a zerg and they just 6-pool? Any bronze can 6-pool. Also Masters vs Gold. Protoss, any protoss can get their 4-gate to hit before 7 minutes, and with only 7 army supply.... what? Read the first part of my post! Thanks. =]
+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2012 21:06 bleu329 wrote: This sounds like fun and I may join in. My suggestion is a restrictioin that you can't use MULES, Chronoboost, or Injections That is a good one, but I feel it's under-limiting to Protoss and overlimitting to Zerg so I'm not sure where it would fit in. You can see Protoss forgetting their chronoboost anyways, but Zerg would have major issues without the larva. Also, it'd be hard to enforce. Kill your hatchery/nexus if you accidentally do it? ><
+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2012 21:17 HaXXspetten wrote: As much as I love this concept, some of these handicaps are beyond broken and just ridiculous. Like, "no defensive structures or units until the 12 minute mark", it doesn't matter if it's Master vs Bronze, your opponent knows of your handicaps, he can just litterally six pool and keep building lings for 10 minutes before a-clicking >.> Yea. I think it's ok if a lower leaguer can take advantage of a handicap, but it can't be too ridiculous as I think those handicaps were. Read the first part of my post, Thanks. =]
+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2012 21:59 Jellikit wrote: "diamond vs gold: Expos must be one hex off" i think this will make it too easy for the diamond player;; only affecting expos and it seems like too small a loss of income. I changed it to two hexes, but I'm considering just making it 4....partially because it'd look ridiculous. xD. But there is an issue you raise that should be concerned. One base all-in's are unaffected by this restriction. We'll have to look into this one further.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2012 22:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Cool concept, but some of these balance ideas are kind of ridiculous lol.
Especially Master vs. Bronze... Bronze should actually never lose o.O Just make a few tier one units.
Yup! Thanks for the feedback. Check out the first response in this post. =]
+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2012 22:31 taddel wrote: I think the masters vs plat (no uprades) is not severe enough. The masters player can just go for any early rush since that usually doesn't require upgrades. I like the general concept though. Having non standard games is always fun to watch for me. I'm going to stick with this one for a bit since I think a Plat level player can use that knowledge to realize the further the game goes, the better off they'll be. I see your point, but I think the Plat player can just be overcautious and still come out all right. Besides, There are not many rush builds other than Cannon Rush, proxy 2 gate, and 6-10 pool, and 2 rax that don't involve a basic upgrade, and I feel these can be prepared for anyways. If it ends up being an issue, we'll definitely come back and revisit this one!
Thanks again for all the feedback guys! About 7 more hours before it starts so keep it coming. =] Take a look at any changes made and voice your opinions on them!
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United Kingdom20152 Posts
Stupid handicaps.
My army supply may at most be equal to the amount of minutes the game has lasted? I have 130 army supply in ZvP at 13 minutes, not 13 army supply. You are dead as shit in ANY situation vs anyone who has a remote idea of how to build any kind of unit whatsoever. I cant see any silver league not beating a masters in PvZ if you take away literally 90% of the zergs units...
You said about changing that one, but a lot of the other ones are stupid too.
Must kill 10 of my own workers before leaving base vs diamond? This completely takes early game PvZ zealot scouting or light pressure to confirm zerg is on more than 1 base vs ffe out of the equation, same as TvP 2rax etc. In that case the protoss can 15 nexus completely safely, and not even worry about going past 1 gate until double forge is up because terran cant leave his base :/
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On April 16 2012 00:42 Cyro wrote: Stupid handicaps.
My army supply may at most be equal to the amount of minutes the game has lasted? I have 130 army supply in ZvP at 13 minutes, not 13 army supply. You are dead as shit in ANY situation vs anyone who has a remote idea of how to build any kind of unit whatsoever. I cant see any silver league not beating a masters in PvZ if you take away literally 90% of the zergs units...
You said about changing that one, but a lot of the other ones are stupid too.
Must kill 10 of my own workers before leaving base vs diamond? This completely takes early game PvZ zealot scouting or light pressure to confirm zerg is on more than 1 base vs ffe out of the equation, same as TvP 2rax etc. In that case the protoss can 15 nexus completely safely, and not even worry about going past 1 gate until double forge is up because terran cant leave his base :/ I hear you out on that first one, but I think a masters league player should have refined enough builds that they can deal some good damage early on. I think zerg will have enough units to survive early on pressure at least for Masters vs Silver. I did change it to double the number of minutes though as suggested by others. So I do appreciate the tip.
As for the Masters vs Diamond, I agree that it will kill chances of light pressure. However, this does not stop scouting in general with say a worker, overlord, scan, etc. And of course, if the diamond player plays greedy, the master league player will be able to scout it out and needs to react by either going "all-in" with superior micro, or overcome the greedy advantage with superior macro. I'm going to stick with the advantage for now, but if it ends up being an issue like you suggested, I think I might change it to kill a number of workers equal the the minutes past in the game. Does that sound fair? Light pressure will still be punishing for the Masters player to do(4-6 workers), but later game attacks will result in the 10 or more workers being killed off, forcing the master leaguer to have a good engagement. Let me know your thoughts on that. I'd also love to hear your suggestions for any handicaps you have issues with.
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Not gonna lie this is not well thought out. I would like maybe to see a unit hp handicap.
master vs. diamond 90% handicap diamond vs plat 90% ect.
Then master vs plat 80% ect
Masters vs gold 70%
Masters vs silver 60& ect
and so on
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As a high diamond player who's actually been master level before, I can say with some confidence that I would just win this competition, unless I was knocked out by luck, by a smurf, or by someone of my equal level. Maybe relax the Master on Diamond restriction some? TEN workers is a hell of a lot per attack.
Also, "may not exceed 125 supply" for Diamond on Platinum is a little unfair for Zerg. That basically means that Zerg players have to go all-in because in a macro game half of that supply would be drones, and then some for queens, and the remainder would be extremely supply inefficient, as most Zerg units are.
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Event is starting in an hour! Get any last minute thoughts you have on the rules!
Edit: Now Live!
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The games are over! Thanks so much to everyone that tuned in and to those that played! We had some interesting results in games that will probably need a little rebalancing.
The victor of today ended up being Anapob with 3 victories in a row before being dethroned by vVvXenocide! I'll be contacting him to see if he wants to do some kind of interview. =]
And of course, the video will be uploaded to my youtube so go ahead and check that out at: http://www.youtube.com/feardragon64
Hope to see you all next Sunday! And again, if you're on EU and find this interesting, let me know and I'll see if there'd be enough people to do this on EU as well!
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good idea but I agree about these handicaps. I am masters and would be terrified of a bronze. When you say "leave your base" can I expand or just not attack?
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this will be a smurf magnet
you gonna do anythin bout that?>
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Yomi: I'm currently revising that rule so stay tuned. =]
On April 16 2012 10:34 OzkanTheFlip wrote: this will be a smurf magnet
you gonna do anythin bout that?>
I am actually working on this! =]
I'm thinking about doing a chat voting system for whether or not there is a potential smurf. I had hoped that, because there wasn't a lot on the line, smurfing wouldn't be a huge issue. Unfortunately, I think this will be an issue I will need to address.
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What you could do to prevent a smurf taking over everything is that after every 2 wins, the player is treated as one league higher for handicaps. If he's already treated as a Master, his opponent gets to be one league lower. So Diamond vs. Platinum after 2 victories becomes Master vs. Platinum, then Master vs. Gold after 4. Maybe make it every two games, to allow for people to have a reasonable streak. Alternatively, just a chat voting system or get a friend you trust and if you both agree it's a smurf, get them to step down. In real KOTH this would be unfair, but Balance Battles IS about letting everyone play after all, so forcing players to step it up to remain standing will help turnover
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On April 16 2012 22:51 Salivanth wrote:What you could do to prevent a smurf taking over everything is that after every 2 wins, the player is treated as one league higher for handicaps. If he's already treated as a Master, his opponent gets to be one league lower. So Diamond vs. Platinum after 2 victories becomes Master vs. Platinum, then Master vs. Gold after 4. Maybe make it every two games, to allow for people to have a reasonable streak. Alternatively, just a chat voting system or get a friend you trust and if you both agree it's a smurf, get them to step down. In real KOTH this would be unfair, but Balance Battles IS about letting everyone play after all, so forcing players to step it up to remain standing will help turnover
I love this idea! Definitely going to try and adapt something like this into the system.
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Hey, the second edition of Balance Battles is coming up in about 2 hours from this post! Come check it out after dreamhack finals are over!
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This looks kinda cool, as long as you can keep smurfs out of it, it should be a lot of fun to play/watch
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Games are starting in a few minutes and we're already live! Head on over to check it out!
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We just finished up! Thanks to everyone who tuned in! We have a tie for champion now at 3 from Mokomi! So look forward to his interview next week! We also got some nice info about some of the handicaps that might need some re-balancing. Catch the vod over at youtube.com/feardragon64 within the next 12 or so hours!
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Episode 3 of Balance Battles is starting in a little under an hour! I need suggestions for the Masters vs Platinum handicap as it seems to need a bit of re-balancing! Let me know any suggestions you guys have for that or any other handicap!
Remember, if you want to play, join the channel BalanceBattle and you'll be randomly selected!
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For Masters vs. Plat, maybe you could allow the Masters player to only be allowed to build a production structure every three minutes? That would limit rushes, but might have too much of an effect in the midgame.
Also, have you considered using a system where each higher league takes on a new restriction and all of the ones from below it? I feel like that would lead to a natural balance between very different leagues, as long as each adjacent-league restriction is balanced.
In case you can't imagine it, bronze would have no restrictions, silver has some restriction X, gold has restrictions X and Y, plat has X, Y, and Z, etc.
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As Master I would rather face a silver then a gold.
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Balance Battles episode 4 is going on today in 3 hours and 20 minutes from this post! Come tune in. =]
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Hey guys! No Balance Battles today or next week! Unfortunately I'm going to be on flights so I won't be able to cast it! The next Balance Battles will happen two weeks from now on May 27th! Enjoy the break guys!
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Balance Battles is returning! Next date set is November 17th at 5pm EST, 2pm PST! The even is going to be switched over to http://www.twitch.tv/zanderfever2 instead of my channel as a part of the ZF network!
In the meanwhile, I'd love to get more thoughts about the current Balance Battles grid! I know it still needs a lot of work so I need you guys to help me come up with fun handicaps for people! Thanks and hope to see you there! =D
Edit: I love being shortsighted and naming this thread "A New Event" when that isn't actually true after a certain point...
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nuked + Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +Can't success bashed believe Lol link automon Sc2 into wow. Someone liquipedia/nuked page please with fill explanation out (seeker there?)
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