Hey guys, I havn't written any topics on TL before. I'ts actually pretty sick if I think about it beeing this is my go to site when I wake up.
If you didnt know I started my journey 13 days ago. Switching from terran to protoss was my end goal. Here's alittle video about it:
The biggest reason I wanted to switch is because I do believe protoss playstyle suits me better since, the race is generally the more defensive, with alot of harass options.
There was also other factors like: * imba (pvt) * learning new stuff is fun * mechanicly more forgiving * requires less apm * Tired of all the terran nerfs
The decision was made yesterday after a bad ladder session I got on tilt after some pvp games. I realised if Im getting tilted on a new mu after just 12 days, its not a good idea to switch since EU ladder consist of 50% protoss. I would lose my motivation and eventually quit the game which happened before and I dont want it to happen again.
Would I had made it? In my honest opinion it would all come down to how much I was willing to study replays and how much coaching I would get in the pvp and pvz matchups. Everytime runa, sortof or naniwa coached me my ranks went up and so did my understanding of the matchups by alot. Without coaching I dont think I would make it unless most of my matchups would be against terran and everybody knows the chances for that is lower than winning the lottery nowadays
I have probably made lots of brotosses happy I couldnt make it and dissapointed my terran brothers. But in the end I have learned more than I ever would have with terran in the same amount of time that I 'wasted'.
Im looking forward to play terran again especially mech
Well that was quick, but I am not really surprised at the outcome. The grass is always greener. Those stream viewers sure were nice for him for a while.
On December 13 2013 21:17 Tosster wrote: You wouldn't make it, sorry Sjow. Not so "imba" eh?
If you'd bothered to truly read his post you'd know that it was mostly because of the PvP matchup that he's ending his Protoss experiment. His opinions on the other matchups remain unchanged.
On December 13 2013 21:17 Tosster wrote: You wouldn't make it, sorry Sjow. Not so "imba" eh?
If you'd bothered to truly read his post you'd know that it was mostly because of the PvP matchup that he's ending his Protoss experiment. His opinions on the other matchups remain unchanged.
Why would you bother explaining something so someone who is clearly missing his brain..
well atleast your goal was more realistic then the one from avilo... He yesterday said that he can make it to rank 1 master in 1 day... and now hes diamond-.- Well Protoss is easy on lower lvls and even tho oracle is a shitty unit (dt2.0) i think its not that easy on higher lvls since you have to micro and react a lot to drops and so on. Anyway gl hf with terra
Conclusion: The reason why he stopped trying is that 50% of the GM ladder are Protoss, so u have to play a lot PvP ^^ damn what a ironie ... haha protoss is IMBA in TvP, i think this is obvious for nearly everyone with a brain, and Protoss is broken in PvP, coinflip matchup? ... so blizzard its time to change something with brotosses
sjow's winrates were:
50% vs Zerg 75% vs Terran 50% vs Protoss
i think ^^
btw: for the very bright input from "Tosster": he was top master after 3 days or so he made huge improvements, and on GM Level all races are hard to play, but protoss has the advantage, only because of the fact that there are 45-50% Tosses in GM over all regions ...
I think raceswitching in SC2 is really hard and takes a long time. This comes from the races being even more different to each other than in BW. You are playing at a completely different rhythm with each race and have to focus on completely different things. So I´m not surprised, that you give up on it, if you don´t want to take a several months long adaptation phase.
On December 13 2013 21:17 Tosster wrote: You wouldn't make it, sorry Sjow. Not so "imba" eh?
If you'd bothered to truly read his post you'd know that it was mostly because of the PvP matchup that he's ending his Protoss experiment. His opinions on the other matchups remain unchanged.
Why would you bother explaining something so someone who is clearly missing his brain..
User was temp banned for this post.
Yeah, because you're believing in what someone wrote, without thinking... perfect brainiac example I would borrow you a bit, but you'd love intelligence too much.
On December 13 2013 21:55 Ctesias wrote: Will be interesting to see how you feel about TvP now that you've seen both sides of the matchup (although not at the same level).
He didn't really see much of PvT, he blink all-inned most of the games, unless he changed it up the last few days.
On December 13 2013 22:31 TT1 wrote: was getting owned by rotterdam the nail in the coffin? denied by rotterdog oo?
Why are people getting banned for trash talking protoss but not getting banned when they trash talk SjoW? And why isn't SjoW getting banned when all other protoss haters are?
Ah too bad, it was fun to watch his stream. He learned quickly and improved very fast, obviously he's an intelligent player. Only thing he consistently was poor at was macro, floating mass resources pretty quickly. I think the queuing from Terran might outweigh other advantages Protoss give him, but perhaps he just needed some more time to think about warping in every cycle and/or making other stuff. Regardless, I'm sad he stopped ;(! Good luck with Terran again anyways~!
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
SjoW, you will always be a Terran to me ;D You can never change that ;P It felt strange every time i watched your stream and you played Protoss But nice that you've tried to go for it imo, hope you not quitting the game anytime soon. We need good Terrans around like you here in Sweden, it's only Protoss here it seems.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
Your argument would have merit if not for the fact that SjoW is biased as hell, and made absolutely no attempt to hide it. I mean this entire thing came out of that bias. Part of the point of it was to try and "prove" this bias right.
If he'd plateaud and just couldn't progress then he'd weaken the position of Terran whining about how OP Protoss is. Doing it this way means said Terrans get to keep complaining about it whilst SjoW changes back to Terran because Protoss isn't as easy as he thought.
Truth is that only SjoW knows really why he switched back. But it is also true that there is literally no reason to trust what he says that reason is because he's here with an agenda.
Anyway, I think you have quit too fast. PvP is in my opinion the matchup that shows the versatility of the player the most, because sometimes it is very reliant on control and management, but there is also a huge amount of actual strategy in it. It is probably, with ZvZ the matchup that is easiest to lose because of just a slightly bad read on your oponent, but that is just the point of strategy - you have to be better than the other guy in thinking what exactly should you do know. If you consider this, it is natural that it's not easy to learn. In PvT and PvZ, you have some basic layout how you want to play the game and the ball is more often in your court that it isn't on what comes next, as the oponent is required to build his unit composition around yours, not the other way round. But in PvP, you have to always consider what your oponent does and what he will do - if you are one step behind, you lose and the ability to do this consistenly requires a long practice.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
Your argument would have merit if not for the fact that SjoW is biased as hell, and made absolutely no attempt to hide it. I mean this entire thing came out of that bias. Part of the point of it was to try and "prove" this bias right.
If he'd plateaud and just couldn't progress then he'd weaken the position of Terran whining about how OP Protoss is. Doing it this way means said Terrans get to keep complaining about it whilst SjoW changes back to Terran because Protoss isn't as easy as he thought.
Truth is that only SjoW knows really why he switched back. But it is also true that there is literally no reason to trust what he says that reason is because he's here with an agenda.
Meh. Everyone is this thread is biased, so your post is kind of pointless. I have more reason to trust Sjow when it comes to the matter of his own motivations and actions than I have to trust anyone else in here. Using your logic, you could justify mistrusting virtually everyone in the community in virtually any situation, since more or less everyone has an agenda in most discussions.
I'm not saying everyone are always truthful about their motivations and that there can never be a reason to mistrust people, but unless you have something more tangible to go on than "he is biased so obviously he's lying", you havn't proven anything. Pointing out that someone is biased does not equal proving that they are lying. A rather simple concept that a lot of people on TL have massive problems grasping, for some reason.
Hahaha xD PvP making P players RQ since the beginning of sc2 xD sjow has learned! I really found this hilarious as I've always pretty much been a member of this camp lmao
I think people should give him credit, though. At least he was confident enough in himself to at least give it a go which many players, myself included, cannot bring themselves to do(race switch). Hopefully he finds some more success with T. I think he might need a different approach to the game so that he may continue to enjoy his time playing in general. Good luck!
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
i just think its funny how protoss players are always on the defensive. its a telltale sign.
On December 13 2013 21:17 Tosster wrote: You wouldn't make it, sorry Sjow. Not so "imba" eh?
If you'd bothered to truly read his post you'd know that it was mostly because of the PvP matchup that he's ending his Protoss experiment. His opinions on the other matchups remain unchanged.
He can be lying. Real reason might be his bad PvZ :D
Not surprised by this. Everyone loves to think their race is the most frustrating to play, then they switch and realize that every race has their frustrating issues and at the end of the day it always ends up the same way, regardless of T/Z/P
I guess in the end it just came down to him not enjoying playing protoss. I can relate to that as I find playing protoss to be the biggest waste time. Either you all in or you turtle with a deathball - both feels like a waste of time.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
On December 13 2013 21:17 Tosster wrote: You wouldn't make it, sorry Sjow. Not so "imba" eh?
If you'd bothered to truly read his post you'd know that it was mostly because of the PvP matchup that he's ending his Protoss experiment. His opinions on the other matchups remain unchanged.
He can be lying. Real reason might be his bad PvZ :D
Oh he actually said in stream that his PvZ sucked :D
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
If was interesting watching you trying to learn two new matchups. Keep fighting the good fight. We all know which race is hardest to play, and which is the most gimmicky and cheesiest race
May be tempting for Terrans currently to switch to Protoss due to TvP. Have to remember though PvP is a headfuck and is an unpredictable match up (result wise) and PvZ seems very unforgiving at times. Not worth switching imo unless your heart is really in it and you are enjoying playing your off-race more than your main.
You know, so many people say protoss is imba and getting gm as toss is easy etc etc... but you actually tried and failed, showing all the balance whiners that they are dumb!!
On December 13 2013 21:16 ETisME wrote: lol switched because P too imba in PvT, switched back because PvP is too frustrating
That might have been what broke the camel's hump but from I saw of his PvZ it was cringeworthy from unit composition and his apm still couldn't really keep up with the game at that pace to utilize the race. Apm isn't the b all end all like I mentioned in the past even in BW, but sJoW you were missing a lot and i mean a lot of openings for harass.
On December 13 2013 21:04 asdfOu wrote:
plus the terran dignity, NEVER GIVE INTO THE PVT IMBA!!!!
1st comment in thread? Oh please. If there are any other players who wish to switch please by all means do so and see for yourself.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never uses these controls, except as I said, spamming them early.
Ofc you can´t switch from terran to protoss and reach your former lvl of play in a couple of days. The way the races play out is completely different, you have to adjust to another rhythm, new timings, new strategies. Especially Protoss, which is heavily build dependant. But the switch for a lot of protoss players to terran would be even harder, because they additionally needed to heavily increase their apm.
TBH his PvP was awful and his PvZ was awful, and probably the biggest reason why he did ok with PvT is because he knows everything there is to know about terran from playing it, and he played styles specifically to abuse all of that.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.
I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.
The mods on TL are obviously protoss players because everytime someone talks about protoss being easy and imba they get ban-hammered, but every time someone smack talks people who talk about protoss imba, they do nothing, even though the pro-protosses use language that is much more offensive... Keep up the bias, mods!
On December 13 2013 23:47 Hider wrote: I guess in the end it just came down to him not enjoying playing protoss. I can relate to that as I find playing protoss to be the biggest waste time. Either you all in or you turtle with a deathball - both feels like a waste of time.
Maybe he dont enjoy play starcraft with races he is not good . like i tried recently pickup broodwar and war3 but i suck so much i gave up after a few games . sjow is a legend for doing this 13 days . is rly hard knowing ur rly good then starting again from the bottom.
On December 13 2013 21:16 ETisME wrote: lol switched because P too imba in PvT, switched back because PvP is too frustrating
That's not strange at all, expected this because me and a friend of mine went through the exact same thing. We're top masters and switched to Protoss for a while because being Terran is just too depressing. Both our PvT winrates were ridiculously high, beating players much stronger than our own Terran. PvZ was harder than I thought, but it can be interesting so that's fine. However, playing the retardfest that is PvP all day can just break a person. The numbers were around 90 PvP's out of 190 games and although my winrate was even positive, that matchup just kills your entire joy in life.
On December 13 2013 21:16 ETisME wrote: lol switched because P too imba in PvT, switched back because PvP is too frustrating
That's not strange at all, expected this because me and a friend of mine went through the exact same thing. We're top masters and switched to Protoss for a while because being Terran is just too depressing. Both our PvT winrates were ridiculously high, beating players much stronger than our own Terran. PvZ was harder than I thought, but it can be interesting so that's fine. However, playing the retardfest that is PvP all day can just break a person. The numbers were around 90 PvP's out of 190 games and although my winrate was even positive, that matchup just kills your entire joy in life.
That's typical of any race switch. When I tried random for a while, my ZvP was insanely better then my other two matchups, same with my TvP. It's all to do with your extensive knowledge of your own race and how to abuse the weaknesses you've become much too familiar with when playing it.
Nothing to do with imba (although I don't think you implied that, but Sjow did)
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never uses these controls, except as I said, spamming them early.
Innovation.
Honestly I also use them alot. I think it makes life easier.
Also its not even true Demuslim doesn't use it. He use it for scv's transfer alot to optimize saturation.
On December 13 2013 21:17 Tosster wrote: You wouldn't make it, sorry Sjow. Not so "imba" eh?
If you'd bothered to truly read his post you'd know that it was mostly because of the PvP matchup that he's ending his Protoss experiment. His opinions on the other matchups remain unchanged.
jaeh but if he thinks pvp is bad, as higher he would have gotten, pvz would have became rly "fun"
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never uses these controls, except as I said, spamming them early.
Innovation.
Honestly I also use them alot. I think it makes life easier.
I don't know why anyone could claim otherwise. Maphotkeys are the dopest. Being able to move the map without going to the minimap is always great.
On December 13 2013 21:16 ETisME wrote: lol switched because P too imba in PvT, switched back because PvP is too frustrating
That's not strange at all, expected this because me and a friend of mine went through the exact same thing. We're top masters and switched to Protoss for a while because being Terran is just too depressing. Both our PvT winrates were ridiculously high, beating players much stronger than our own Terran. PvZ was harder than I thought, but it can be interesting so that's fine. However, playing the retardfest that is PvP all day can just break a person. The numbers were around 90 PvP's out of 190 games and although my winrate was even positive, that matchup just kills your entire joy in life.
Ah yes, Protoss has reach an over-saturation point where the hesitant factor to switch is dealing with PvPs.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never uses these controls, except as I said, spamming them early.
Innovation.
Honestly I also use them alot. I think it makes life easier.
I don't know why anyone could claim otherwise. Maphotkeys are the dopest. Being able to move the map without going to the minimap is always great.
I don't get the p vs p hate, unless hating on cannon rushers... You can make same units as other guy. You have a nexus cannon that basically means you can get to the mid game and outplay your opponent. I see some builds working better against others, but if you can't adjust to outplay someone, then the problem is your build, not the mu.
Most of the time I hear about toss imbalance from terran players on ladder, usually their worst matchup by far is t vs t.... Someone with 25% in t vs t and 64% in t vs p was telling me how easy p vs t is and toss in general. My question is, what would their sentiment be if their t vs p was at 25%? It's just embarrassing to me how many players can be horrible at a mirror mu, yet blame any short comings in another mu on imbalances, lol. Terran players...
I am glad you decided to abandon that disgusting dirty race and get back to the real deal...the terran...you will get stormed, you will get amoved thru while the tos is sitting back sipping on his juice...but you will have your dignity and the respect of your terran bros. WP
On December 14 2013 00:17 playa wrote: I don't get the p vs p hate, unless hating on cannon rushers... You can make same units as other guy. You have a nexus cannon that basically means you can get to the mid game and outplay your opponent. I see some builds working better against others, but if you can't adjust to outplay someone, then the problem is your build, not the mu.
Most of the time I hear about toss imbalance from terran players on ladder, usually their worst matchup by far is t vs t.... Someone with 25% in t vs t and 64% in t vs p was telling me how easy p vs t is and toss in general. My question is, what would their sentiment be if their t vs p was at 25%? It's just embarrassing to me how many players can be horrible at a mirror mu, yet blame any short comings in another mu on imbalances, lol. Terran players...
Try to get high TvT ratio when you can never train it because of the lack of terrans on ladder. (that's notmy case I have 71% TvT right now).
t v t turtle fests in bw and just listen to all those guys who go nuts with regards to zvz in sc2 and bw alike lololol. Mirrors are unavoidable. Race pickers, hue!
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
They're actually the least important with zerg because u can use queens for locations. Chrono'ing ur nexi without camera hotkeys is a pain noone should have go through.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.
I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.
Almost all pros use them all the time. Don't listen to the silver heros in here.
On December 14 2013 00:18 Razbu wrote: I am glad you decided to abandon that disgusting dirty race and get back to the real deal...the terran...you will get stormed, you will get amoved thru while the tos is sitting back sipping on his juice...but you will have your dignity and the respect of your terran bros. WP
This comment makes me so sad. It's like playing on ladder.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
They're actually the least important with zerg because u can use queens for locations. Chrono'ing ur nexi without camera hotkeys is a pain noone should have go through.
the way sjow goes against the grain just isn't viable. you cannot play like that and expect to get results. I think it's amazing that early on he did okay and heck he's still going at it. Dude's persistent but he really is set in his own way. Respect for that, but my God man. I don't know how anyone can play like that.
On December 13 2013 21:16 ETisME wrote: lol switched because P too imba in PvT, switched back because PvP is too frustrating
This... I respect Sjow for making a statement, but this is similar to why he switched to Protoss 2 weeks ago. Because TvP is frustrating. If he kept on switching on that reason alone, then he'd might as well quit the game because TvP is more frustrating that PvP imo. No matchup in the game can be considered not frustrating.
On December 14 2013 00:18 Razbu wrote: I am glad you decided to abandon that disgusting dirty race and get back to the real deal...the terran...you will get stormed, you will get amoved thru while the tos is sitting back sipping on his juice...but you will have your dignity and the respect of your terran bros. WP
This comment makes me so sad. It's like playing on ladder.
Eh, it seems to be the standard Terran mindset around here lately.
Slowly but surely TL is turning into the Battlenet forums. :-\
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.
I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.
Almost all pros use them all the time. Don't listen to the silver heros in here.
Silver hero lmao. Srly, these guys..
Saying camera hotkey are ultra important to up into GM is ridiculous considering how much 70 APM protoss there are in GM currently.
Sjow, I really enjoyed watching the stream. I think you could have made it, if you had focused more on the mechanical aspects of your play. Generally speaking, you are one of the most "strategical" players out there, which often gives you an edge against predictable players, but to have success on the ladder, your mechanics with protoss looked kinda off. (of course, nobody expected you to macro perfectly, because you just had switched races, but with better mechanics you'd surely have had more success.) But yeah, pvp is kinda random, especially on the ladder, where you can't adjust to your opponent's playstyle like in a BOx-series.
Well, it's your decision. keep fighting! I'm looking forward to you playing mech.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never uses these controls, except as I said, spamming them early.
Innovation.
Honestly I also use them alot. I think it makes life easier.
I don't know why anyone could claim otherwise. Maphotkeys are the dopest. Being able to move the map without going to the minimap is always great.
It's not like it will prevent you to get into gm.
It totally could prevent him from getting onto GM with Protoss. He has to fight other Protoss and terrans who use them. Being able to go to a section of the map without a control group is fucking clutch as Protoss. I can't speak to the other races, but I am sure they are useful there as well. I don't know what world you are living in where this basic mechanic isn't useful. They use them in Dota as well. If you want to be the best, you use map hot keys.
On December 14 2013 00:17 playa wrote: I don't get the p vs p hate, unless hating on cannon rushers... You can make same units as other guy. You have a nexus cannon that basically means you can get to the mid game and outplay your opponent. I see some builds working better against others, but if you can't adjust to outplay someone, then the problem is your build, not the mu.
Most of the time I hear about toss imbalance from terran players on ladder, usually their worst matchup by far is t vs t.... Someone with 25% in t vs t and 64% in t vs p was telling me how easy p vs t is and toss in general. My question is, what would their sentiment be if their t vs p was at 25%? It's just embarrassing to me how many players can be horrible at a mirror mu, yet blame any short comings in another mu on imbalances, lol. Terran players...
The builds make far too much of a difference in PvP. Since both have access to the same units and both can warp-in X-map, the build and small advantages one gets from one build over the other makes a much bigger impact. With ZvZ, the advantages are a lot more subtle and outplaying the opponent can get you a victory. For instance, I always open up 15 pool, when most people open up with a 15 hatch or something. This really only equates to a small drone advantage, and by playing the defender, you can always make up for that. The same cannot be said for PvP, which has many hard blind-counter builds. Since they have so many "tactics" (aka, badly designed units like DTs, oracles, blink stalkers, etc.) you end up having to choose to be safe for 2/3 of the possibilities while leaving yourself vulnerable for that last 1/3. So, the problem is actually the game, which influences the matchup.
ANYWAY I'm glad to see Sjow man up and stick with Terran. Obviously the cooler race to play. After he did so well at Dreamhack a while back, I was really surprised to see him change anything. Sadly, the latest DH was not successful, but have some faith, ya?
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.
I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.
Almost all pros use them all the time. Don't listen to the silver heros in here.
Silver hero lmao. Srly, these guys..
Saying camera hotkey are ultra important to up into GM is ridiculous considering how much 70 APM protoss there are in GM currently.
I never said you had to use location hotkeys to get into GM. But it seriously compromises the speed and effeciency in which you can do things. I would say that by just not using them your mechanics can instantly be classified as bad.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never uses these controls, except as I said, spamming them early.
Innovation.
Honestly I also use them alot. I think it makes life easier.
I don't know why anyone could claim otherwise. Maphotkeys are the dopest. Being able to move the map without going to the minimap is always great.
It's not like it will prevent you to get into gm.
It totally could prevent him from getting onto GM with Protoss. He has to fight other Protoss and terrans who use them. Being able to go to a section of the map without a control group is fucking clutch as Protoss. I can't speak to the other races, but I am sure they are useful there as well. I don't know what world you are living in where this basic mechanic isn't useful. They use them in Dota as well. If you want to be the best, you use map hot keys.
Are you kidding me ? Camera hotkey might be useful at the very top but to get into GM you don't need them, especially when you have low APM like Sjow. There are so much more important thing to work on before camera hotkey. Hell, even at high master your macro isn't perfect, or the multitask, those are the things you need to work on to get into GM.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.
I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.
Almost all pros use them all the time. Don't listen to the silver heros in here.
Silver hero lmao. Srly, these guys..
Saying camera hotkey are ultra important to up into GM is ridiculous considering how much 70 APM protoss there are in GM currently.
I never said you had to use location hotkeys to get into GM. But it seriously compromises the speed and effeciency in which you can do things. I would say that by just not using them your mechanics can instantly be classified as bad.
I consider myself solid (not perfect ofc) at macro and I don't use them, that doesn't prevent me to reach high master, and I know using them won't change a lot my play and my level, as I said in my previous post, there are A LOT of thing to work on before starting to use camera location.
On December 13 2013 23:38 Whatson wrote: [quote] He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never uses these controls, except as I said, spamming them early.
Innovation.
Honestly I also use them alot. I think it makes life easier.
I don't know why anyone could claim otherwise. Maphotkeys are the dopest. Being able to move the map without going to the minimap is always great.
It's not like it will prevent you to get into gm.
It totally could prevent him from getting onto GM with Protoss. He has to fight other Protoss and terrans who use them. Being able to go to a section of the map without a control group is fucking clutch as Protoss. I can't speak to the other races, but I am sure they are useful there as well. I don't know what world you are living in where this basic mechanic isn't useful. They use them in Dota as well. If you want to be the best, you use map hot keys.
Are you kidding me ? Camera hotkey might be useful at the very top but to get into GM you don't need them, especially when you have low APM like Sjow. There are so much more important thing to work on before camera hotkey. Hell, even at high master your macro isn't perfect, or the multitask, those are the things you need to work on to get into GM.
I love how your argument has shifted from camera hot keys being useless to they not preventing him from getting into GM. Sjow didn't make it as a Protoss because of his bad habits and slow play, which will lose you games, especially against zergs. Not using map hot keys is bad and no pro should make a habit of not using them. They make you faster.
On December 13 2013 21:16 ETisME wrote: lol switched because P too imba in PvT, switched back because PvP is too frustrating
This... I respect Sjow for making a statement, but this is similar to why he switched to Protoss 2 weeks ago. Because TvP is frustrating. If he kept on switching on that reason alone, then he'd might as well quit the game because TvP is more frustrating that PvP imo. No matchup in the game can be considered not frustrating.
Actually no, its just the protoss matchups.
Solution: Remove Protoss from the game, replace with W3 orcs.
Ty
Anyway, Sjow would've got GM, not top 50 though. Bottom line if he really hates PvP its not worth switching, since he will quit eventually anyway.
On December 13 2013 23:38 Whatson wrote: [quote] He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.
I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.
Almost all pros use them all the time. Don't listen to the silver heros in here.
Silver hero lmao. Srly, these guys..
Saying camera hotkey are ultra important to up into GM is ridiculous considering how much 70 APM protoss there are in GM currently.
I never said you had to use location hotkeys to get into GM. But it seriously compromises the speed and effeciency in which you can do things. I would say that by just not using them your mechanics can instantly be classified as bad.
I consider myself solid (not perfect ofc) at macro and I don't use them, that doesn't prevent me to reach high master, and I know using them won't change a lot my play and my level, as I said in my previous post, there are A LOT of thing to work on before starting to use camera location.
You think you're solid and you think they won't help much based on your vast RTS experience... surely that must outweigh the general consensus that they're really useful. People get to masters all the time with bad habits. It's not hard to start using location hotkeys and it simply makes you faster and more action efficient at taking new expansions and worker transfers. It's especially important later on when your multitasking/apm is stretched and you're looking to take and saturate a 4th/5th. I have nfi why someone who plays the game at a good level would choose not to use them beyond some combination of stubbornness, ignorance or laziness.
That's really unfortunate that you quit just because of getting tilted for a few games, SjoW I figured you'd have a little more patience than that, especially if you felt that Protoss was more your style now. Had to laugh at the remark that Protoss is imba lol.
Yea, you definitely stopped because of pvp, not because your experiment was utter failure from the get go where you can't reach even high master on NA ladder after 400 games.
On December 14 2013 00:03 riceant wrote: The mods on TL are obviously protoss players because everytime someone talks about protoss being easy and imba they get ban-hammered, but every time someone smack talks people who talk about protoss imba, they do nothing, even though the pro-protosses use language that is much more offensive... Keep up the bias, mods!
Pretty sure explicit balance whining for any reason, especially without presenting any evidence, can get you warned or banned.
...unless you go to the designated balance whine thread or the letting off steam thread. Protoss and Zerg players seem to prefer the latter, while Terran players seem to prefer the former.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.
I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.
Almost all pros use them all the time. Don't listen to the silver heros in here.
Silver hero lmao. Srly, these guys..
Saying camera hotkey are ultra important to up into GM is ridiculous considering how much 70 APM protoss there are in GM currently.
With Sjow switching back to Terran, there are now the same number of 70 APM Terrans and 70 APM Protosses in GM.
On December 13 2013 23:48 Plansix wrote: [quote] Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.
I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.
Almost all pros use them all the time. Don't listen to the silver heros in here.
Silver hero lmao. Srly, these guys..
Saying camera hotkey are ultra important to up into GM is ridiculous considering how much 70 APM protoss there are in GM currently.
I never said you had to use location hotkeys to get into GM. But it seriously compromises the speed and effeciency in which you can do things. I would say that by just not using them your mechanics can instantly be classified as bad.
I consider myself solid (not perfect ofc) at macro and I don't use them, that doesn't prevent me to reach high master, and I know using them won't change a lot my play and my level, as I said in my previous post, there are A LOT of thing to work on before starting to use camera location.
You think you're solid and you think they won't help much based on your vast RTS experience... surely that must outweigh the general consensus that they're really useful. People get to masters all the time with bad habits. It's not hard to start using location hotkeys and it simply makes you faster and more action efficient at taking new expansions and worker transfers. It's especially important later on when your multitasking/apm is stretched and you're looking to take and saturate a 4th/5th. I have nfi why someone who plays the game at a good level would choose not to use them beyond some combination of stubbornness, ignorance or laziness.
C'mon, it's like saying : you won't up into GM if you don't use them, with if false. I don't need it to saturate my bases when there is a magic "base camera rotation" button that does it for me. It happened a lot of time that I outmacroed some GM's. I know that if I want to up into GM, I have other things much more important to correct than start using camera hotkey, that will annoy me more than anything because I don't have 200 APM and I already have some trouble managing 3 army control when I play vs P, if you add camera in the lot, I'm gonna mess everything up.
On December 13 2013 23:48 Plansix wrote: [quote] Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.
I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.
Almost all pros use them all the time. Don't listen to the silver heros in here.
Silver hero lmao. Srly, these guys..
Saying camera hotkey are ultra important to up into GM is ridiculous considering how much 70 APM protoss there are in GM currently.
I never said you had to use location hotkeys to get into GM. But it seriously compromises the speed and effeciency in which you can do things. I would say that by just not using them your mechanics can instantly be classified as bad.
I consider myself solid (not perfect ofc) at macro and I don't use them, that doesn't prevent me to reach high master, and I know using them won't change a lot my play and my level, as I said in my previous post, there are A LOT of thing to work on before starting to use camera location.
You think you're solid and you think they won't help much based on your vast RTS experience... surely that must outweigh the general consensus that they're really useful. People get to masters all the time with bad habits. It's not hard to start using location hotkeys and it simply makes you faster and more action efficient at taking new expansions and worker transfers. It's especially important later on when your multitasking/apm is stretched and you're looking to take and saturate a 4th/5th. I have nfi why someone who plays the game at a good level would choose not to use them beyond some combination of stubbornness, ignorance or laziness.
Cant speak for protoss or terran here. Im zerg and i havent touched camera hotkeys nor base rotation ever, yet im quite comfortable with my macro in GM league. it doesnt really matter if you use them or not if youre fast and accurate in what youre doing. Also its almost impossible to force yourself to switch using sth new such as camera hotkeys when you never have done it - my muscle memory has been set for this for 3 years now ^^
Although some players don't use camera hot keys, they are awesome and can only make you better if you work them into your play. They are so awsome that dota 2 player hard code them(map hot keys are not menu option in dota). And dota 2 players control 1 hero(or up to 6 if you are meepo). They are that awesome.
Hey man as a Protoss I enjoyed watching you struggle but I also liked that your attitude shifted more toward getting better rather than proving a balance point.
On December 13 2013 23:50 Faust852 wrote: [quote] Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.
I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.
Almost all pros use them all the time. Don't listen to the silver heros in here.
Silver hero lmao. Srly, these guys..
Saying camera hotkey are ultra important to up into GM is ridiculous considering how much 70 APM protoss there are in GM currently.
I never said you had to use location hotkeys to get into GM. But it seriously compromises the speed and effeciency in which you can do things. I would say that by just not using them your mechanics can instantly be classified as bad.
I consider myself solid (not perfect ofc) at macro and I don't use them, that doesn't prevent me to reach high master, and I know using them won't change a lot my play and my level, as I said in my previous post, there are A LOT of thing to work on before starting to use camera location.
You think you're solid and you think they won't help much based on your vast RTS experience... surely that must outweigh the general consensus that they're really useful. People get to masters all the time with bad habits. It's not hard to start using location hotkeys and it simply makes you faster and more action efficient at taking new expansions and worker transfers. It's especially important later on when your multitasking/apm is stretched and you're looking to take and saturate a 4th/5th. I have nfi why someone who plays the game at a good level would choose not to use them beyond some combination of stubbornness, ignorance or laziness.
C'mon, it's like saying : you won't up into GM if you don't use them, with if false. I don't need it to saturate my bases when there is a magic "base camera rotation" button that does it for me. It happened a lot of time that I outmacroed some GM's. I know that if I want to up into GM, I have other things much more important to correct than start using camera hotkey, that will annoy me more than anything because I don't have 200 APM and I already have some trouble managing 3 army control when I play vs P, if you add camera in the lot, I'm gonna mess everything up.
Drop defense, expanding, chrono, warpin and micro are faster with camera hotkeys. It makes actions take less apm. So really every player should consider it.
Though unless you plan to win wcs you should think about what is most fun.
For me sjow is an idra qxc destiny type. At least after this stunt.
Well, with the amount of balance whine he made in his streaming sessions in the first few days ("oh so easy", "never should've won that", "P imba" all the time while still in Plat), I can't help but smile just a little at his failure to break out of masters. One would think that this would quiet the anti-P balance whiners just a little, but, alas, judging by a lot of posts in this thread, his failed adventure didn't lead to rethinking for some people.
On December 14 2013 01:42 ACrow wrote: Well, with the amount of balance whine he made in his streaming sessions in the first few days ("oh so easy", "never should've won that", "P imba" all the time while still in Plat), I can't help but smile just a little at his failure to break out of masters. One would think that this would quiet the anti-P balance whiners just a little, but, alas, judging by a lot of posts in this thread, his failed adventure didn't lead to rethinking for some people.
actually the responses like yours are just as bad, in a different way, and far more condescending.
being so defensive to the point of jumping all over him for quitting, and needing to say 1000+ times that its a failure, is very telling of self-perception. i dont even think it was a failure at all...and he could have kept going. his MMR was less than 100 points from GM. I think he realized it takes longer to get good at a race. If he wants to think PvT is imba that is separate from him 'quitting' this experiment.
It feels more than a bit lame that he isn't seeing through the month but I understand why. Still, you PROMISED! And that's why it's stupid for people to even make promises.
Not surprising. TvT is a lot more stable and less fragile when compared to PvP and ZvZ. Everytime I was offracing to test other races out, I was enjoying it up until the point where I started getting mirror matchups frequently. ZvZ felt volatile, PvP felt too much like rock paper scissors (this was in WoL though...) I'm not sure about the state of ZvZ and PvP now but from what I've seen at least TvT hasn't changed that much.
EDIT:
Also SjoW, you should've had the balls to go through with the "1 month thing" nonetheless, disappointed in you son.
sorry sjow that it didnt work, knew it would happen this way because pvp is the only reason I didnt change to protoss aswell, sucha disgusting matchup that makes me want to puke every time I even see it
On December 14 2013 01:42 ACrow wrote: Well, with the amount of balance whine he made in his streaming sessions in the first few days ("oh so easy", "never should've won that", "P imba" all the time while still in Plat), I can't help but smile just a little at his failure to break out of masters. One would think that this would quiet the anti-P balance whiners just a little, but, alas, judging by a lot of posts in this thread, his failed adventure didn't lead to rethinking for some people.
actually the responses like yours are just as bad, in a different way, and far more condescending.
being so defensive to the point of jumping all over him for quitting, and needing to say 1000+ times that its a failure, is very telling of self-perception. i dont even think it was a failure at all...and he could have kept going. his MMR was less than 100 points from GM. I think he realized it takes longer to get good at a race. If he wants to think PvT is imba that is separate from him 'quitting' this experiment.
Nah, Acrows post was fine. Sjow did a ton of imba whining the opening days of his stream and then he quit when he got to the tough part of playing Protoss. He says in his post the he could have made it f he practiced more and got coaching. He found out Protoss wasn't the ez pz Amove race and quit when it got hard to win.
I certainly enjoyed your experiment and I would be happy to see other progamers switch side now and then! When are you going to play zerg? I'm sure there is more to learn!
Good solution! Rather than having to admit that he couldn't make it as protoss, he blames frustration and saves face. Quite brilliant when you think about it.
I wanted to see you fail at the start, but you actually showed me during some games that you are a really smart player and abused your strengths pretty good with protoss, you improved very quickly (in the beginning i was facepalming at some of your pvz's, but a while later i was quite impressed with some of your moves). That being said, I do think it is pretty lame to back out and still act cocky, if you make such claims about protoss being ridiculously easy and reaching rank 50 GM ezpz, the least you could do is to act humble when backing out of it (your best reason basically is that you hate pvp and don't like to play it, what does this have to do with your claims about protoss being easy?).
In the end you probably don't care at all because you've won quite a few streamviewers (frustrated terrans that like to shit on protoss) and you will not change your attitude vs protoss => laddercommunity will stay as hateful as it is.
Had great fun watching your Sjow. You've proved your point with your almost 80% PvT winrate. Of course playing PvP all day is frustrating so I understand your decision.
I called this in his chat a few days ago. Watching Sjow's Protoss was painful in all matchups. He never would have had a hope in hell of making his goal on NA ladder let alone EU. He was losing to Masters NA players frequently. I predicted that he would fail, and blame it on lack of motivation or practice, claim Protoss was still imba and imba in PvT, then switch back.
The truth of the matter is, he realized Protoss isn't as easy as all the balance haters would have you think, and tucked his tail and ran to try and save face. Having an insane win rate in PvT doing all-in oracle // blink plays against bad NA Masters players doesn't mean anything either. His Protoss in general was just so terrible that he couldn't even climb the ranks high enough to test his mettle against half decent competition.
On December 14 2013 02:23 SolidSMD wrote: That being said, I do think it is pretty lame to back out and still act cocky, if you make such claims about protoss being ridiculously easy and reaching rank 50 GM ezpz, the least you could do is to act humble when backing out of it (your best reason basically is that you hate pvp and don't like to play it, what does this have to do with your claims about protoss being easy?).
He is standing for his position as a professional whiner.
Another reason he ended his journey was because of PvZ. He just mentioned it on his stream. If you just read the blog post you easily get the impression that the only reason he changed his mind was because of PvPs. In fact though this isn't the case at all...
However thanks for the joy you brought me watching a terran try to play Protoss. Wish you the best of luck trying to become an even better terran with the knowledge you gained about protoss )
Man I feel like sjow missed out on a fantastic opportunity. I would watch someting ala mr bitter's show with 3-5 episodes of Naniwa coaching/cursing sjow!
Happy that he have returned and didn't go deep enough into the Protoss. We need all the foreign Terrans we can get, the way of the Protoss will seem tempting but soon enough Blizzard will come to their senses and give the other races more toys.
On December 14 2013 03:26 Sabu113 wrote: Man I feel like sjow missed out on a fantastic opportunity. I would watch someting ala mr bitter's show with 3-5 episodes of Naniwa coaching/cursing sjow!
In the final episode Naniwa and Sjow go on a murderous rampage as they try to kill every Zerg in Europe and accidently burn down an Ikea. Morrow gets blamed and goes to jail.
He played protoss with the terran mindset, so ofc he didn't want to change race from the beginning. He just wanted to prove that TvP isn't balanced. Imho he could have done top100 GM withing the 2 weeks, since he was very close from GM already.
Everyone thinks Protoss is this easy race that anyone with a pulse can play, but there are a lot of nuances to it that people don't notice. PvZ is quite hard. PvP is very tricky (and no, it's not a total coinflip like everyone says it is... some people are known for having good PvP).
I think the reason his PvT was better than his other MUs is because he has a better understanding of Terran as a natural Terran player, not because "PvT imba." The win rates for professional PvT are actually very close to 50%.
I did the same exact thing he did, but switched to Terran from Protoss (to prove to my friends that Terran was not harder). My best MU was TvP, because I already have an understanding of what the Protoss can do and when he can do it.
Savior during his ZvT annihilation period in BW used to practice exclusively as Terran for long periods of time. It's that study of the opponent's race that allowed him to be so dominant (he has said this in interviews).
Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
On December 14 2013 03:58 ZenithM wrote: Haha, I'm disappoint, but solely because of all the Protoss gloating in this thread. "Protoss master race reporting in!"
Meh, he set himself up for it with all his stupid whine (at the start, during and end of his failed "experiment").
Sometimes, people deserve to get the boot stuck into them. Sjow is one of those people and this is one of those times.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not. I've played it.
In fact my buddy has 85% win rate TvP as a RANDOM player. And he only mechs!
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
Saw this coming. But ultimately I think it was a great decision to put himself on the otherside of things and get a good understanding of a race he's struggled so dearly against. Well done Sjow! Glad you gave it a shot!
On December 14 2013 03:26 Sabu113 wrote: Man I feel like sjow missed out on a fantastic opportunity. I would watch someting ala mr bitter's show with 3-5 episodes of Naniwa coaching/cursing sjow!
In the final episode Naniwa and Sjow go on a murderous rampage as they try to kill every Zerg in Europe and accidently burn down an Ikea. Morrow gets blamed and goes to jail.
lmao! Watch the Swedish chef pleading Morrow's innocence to the jury: "Huuurdie buurdie löngböng!"
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Shame you didn't pick up on the lesson to be learned here, namely the percieved imbalances being mostly in your head. As terran, you had problems in TvP. Now you have problems in a different matchup. These things ultimately fall on your attitude, skill set, play style, and so forth.
But, I guess it's all the same. Claiming imbalances is an easy way for a fragile ego to deal with failure in a specific matchup. It's better than for example beating yourself up over it all the time, thinking you're a failure, and so forth. There are other alternatives though, you don't have to go to either of those two extremes...
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
You realize that this guy beat Life with like 70APM playing Terran, right?
So good to see all the insulted protoss coming in here and having a good time. Keep it up lads. The fact that he made it to top master and had a decent win rate in a couple of days makes me think he would've reached GM if he kept pushing.
"Would I had made it? In my honest opinion it would all come down to how much I was willing to study replays and how much coaching I would get in the pvp and pvz matchups. "
I don't believe you even for a second. How can you possibly talk about what you could have done, when you set yourself to do it but couldn't even bother to follow it through? You couldn't even finish a challenge you set for yourself, then you backed out of it in a way that was really lame. You should be ashamed of yourself.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not. I've played it.
In fact my buddy has 85% win rate TvP as a RANDOM player. And he only mechs!
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
How can you claim something so stupid? Do you remember when a foreign terran beat a good korean protoss? Yea, me neither, BECAUSE it doesnt happen. Simple as that. Now lets check the opposite, we have NaNiWa 2-0-ing INnoVatioN, beating Hack convincingly, Grubby eliminating MVP from WCS EU, even ToD beating Sting (a fucking caster!) as we saw in AcerTeamStoryCup. This is only what I can remember. You have to be blind in order to not see that toss has much more success than terran, which can only mean that they are easier to play. OR it can all be coincidence and the game is perfectly fine, both races require the same amount of effort and protossers are simply more hardworking.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
You realize that this guy beat Life with like 70APM playing Terran, right?
Have you seen the replay and checked the APM tab? No. I bet one of my balls he had at least 130 EPM in that game.
On December 14 2013 04:44 GoodJazz wrote: So good to see all the insulted protoss coming in here and having a good time. Keep it up lads. The fact that he made it to top master and had a decent win rate in a couple of days makes me think he would've reached GM if he kept pushing.
The world may never know. But the thing we do know is that Protoss was not as ez pz as Sjow thought.
Heh, I think any semi-decent Protoss on EU could probably do the same as Sjow but with Terran. He really had to get to GM and start kicking ass with his offrace to show something (huehue). I'm sorry to say this, but I think Sjow just isn't really good, and in particular doesn't have much of what makes a Terran usually shine over a Protoss (mainly mechanics, multitasking and micro). I'd say his preferred playstyle (slow but "smart") is more adapted to Protoss, but he didn't stick to the race long enough so it didn't really show (huehuehue).
What this is is really just a failed experiment, as all the fellow Protoss in this thread loved to point out, I'm sure. So, until proven otherwise, there are 50% Protoss in GM because 1) Protoss players are just better, 2) Nobody wants to play the humans, 3) they worked harder than the others (I read that in this thread).
EU gm teran can't make it past mid master on NA ladder as protos. Says it all. A friend of mine that's GM protos easily breaks GM in both teran and zerg. So much for the skills it needs to reach teran GM. sLow should be your new name.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not. I've played it.
In fact my buddy has 85% win rate TvP as a RANDOM player. And he only mechs!
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
How can you claim something so stupid? Do you remember when a foreign terran beat a good korean protoss? Yea, me neither, BECAUSE it doesnt happen. Simple as that. Now lets check the opposite, we have NaNiWa 2-0-ing INnoVatioN, beating Hack convincingly, Grubby eliminating MVP from WCS EU, even ToD beating Sting (a fucking caster!) as we saw in AcerTeamStoryCup. This is only what I can remember. You have to be blind in order to not see that toss has much more success than terran, which can only mean that they are easier to play. OR it can all be coincidence and the game is perfectly fine, both races require the same amount of effort and protossers are simply more hardworking.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
You realize that this guy beat Life with like 70APM playing Terran, right?
Have you seen the replay and checked the APM tab? No. I bet one of my balls he had at least 130 EPM in that game.
I remember old Jinro owning it up back in the day :p
Honestly though people should be a little more honest with themselves. Back in the first year of WoL TvZ was noticeably easier for the Terran in TvZ. Too many things were in Terrans favour in that match up back then from small maps, shorter rax + bunker building times, slower overlords (preventing scouting) shorter range queens etc. I felt like I was beating Zerg players better than myself. Now in PvT the match up is easier to play as a Protoss in that match up and I do not see the big deal with being honest about this. Koreans seem to be much more honest and mature in their attitudes towards game balance, something else they are better than foreigners at...
Saying all that though I do feel Sjow was a bit disrespectful towards Protoss players, but maybe he was just having a bit of fun trolling. If he was being serious then hopefully he has been humbled somewhat ^^
On December 14 2013 04:47 ( bush wrote: Do you remember when a foreign terran beat a good korean protoss?
Happy and Kas, WCS S3, round of 32 happy vs duckdeok and Kas vs Stardust. You could point out, that MVP lost to a noname Protoss Showtime, but if you saw those games, you would not call it on imbalance...
edit. Happy also beat MC and San @ AsusROG Summer 2013
"The decision was made yesterday after a bad ladder session I got on tilt after some pvp games. I realised if Im getting tilted on a new mu after just 12 days, its not a good idea to switch since EU ladder consist of 50% protoss. I would lose my motivation and eventually quit the game which happened before and I dont want it to happen again."
This is a horrible reason to quit! Tilt is usually caused by percieved imbalance, or lack of understanding. Both will happen to anyone that switches races.
YOu will tilt. Because you are used to performing at a higher level. YOu can't just pick up something completely new and hope to be performing at the same level. If you don't like Protoss that would be a good reason to stop. Tilting is a horrible reason.
On December 14 2013 04:30 Shellshock wrote: Well at least he got some publicity and decent stream numbers out of it right?
He did?
In any case, yeah there's a reason Protoss is hard and it's because of the awfulness that is PvP. One of the reasons I haven't played in SC in about a year seriously since I was a Protoss player and just couldn't stand the matchup or getting dumpstered when I played Terran/Zerg at high masters level lol.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not. I've played it.
In fact my buddy has 85% win rate TvP as a RANDOM player. And he only mechs!
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
How can you claim something so stupid? Do you remember when a foreign terran beat a good korean protoss? Yea, me neither, BECAUSE it doesnt happen. Simple as that. Now lets check the opposite, we have NaNiWa 2-0-ing INnoVatioN, beating Hack convincingly, Grubby eliminating MVP from WCS EU, even ToD beating Sting (a fucking caster!) as we saw in AcerTeamStoryCup. This is only what I can remember. You have to be blind in order to not see that toss has much more success than terran, which can only mean that they are easier to play. OR it can all be coincidence and the game is perfectly fine, both races require the same amount of effort and protossers are simply more hardworking.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
You realize that this guy beat Life with like 70APM playing Terran, right?
Have you seen the replay and checked the APM tab? No. I bet one of my balls he had at least 130 EPM in that game.
First of all, don't call me stupid. It's rude.
Secondly, being a Korean or a non-Korean has nothing to do with it. Koreans are not born with higher APM or a knowledge of StarCraft. They practice harder, and they practice with stronger opponents. Naniwa is one of the hardest working guys in StarCraft 2. He will often skip tournaments when he doesn't have enough time to practice to make sure he is in top shape for the next one. His achievements are a direct result of his hard work. Grubby works very hard as well.
When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there.
And then, there was Happy and Kas beating Stardust and Showtime. Major even took a set of Taeja (2-0) where he played pretty well.
"Toss has much more success than Terran" is a false statement. Again I point you at near 50% win rates and 8 of the top 16 in WCS points standings.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not. I've played it.
In fact my buddy has 85% win rate TvP as a RANDOM player. And he only mechs!
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
How can you claim something so stupid? Do you remember when a foreign terran beat a good korean protoss? Yea, me neither, BECAUSE it doesnt happen. Simple as that. Now lets check the opposite, we have NaNiWa 2-0-ing INnoVatioN, beating Hack convincingly, Grubby eliminating MVP from WCS EU, even ToD beating Sting (a fucking caster!) as we saw in AcerTeamStoryCup. This is only what I can remember. You have to be blind in order to not see that toss has much more success than terran, which can only mean that they are easier to play. OR it can all be coincidence and the game is perfectly fine, both races require the same amount of effort and protossers are simply more hardworking.
On December 14 2013 04:32 ottosec wrote:
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
You realize that this guy beat Life with like 70APM playing Terran, right?
Have you seen the replay and checked the APM tab? No. I bet one of my balls he had at least 130 EPM in that game.
First of all, don't call me stupid. It's rude.
Secondly, being a Korean or a non-Korean has nothing to do with it. Koreans are not born with higher APM or a knowledge of StarCraft. They practice harder, and they practice with stronger opponents. Naniwa is one of the hardest working guys in StarCraft 2. He will often skip tournaments when he doesn't have enough time to practice to make sure he is in top shape for the next one. His achievements are a direct result of his hard work. Grubby works very hard as well.
When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there.
"Toss has much more success than Terran" is a false statement. Again I point you at near 50% win rates and 8 of the top 16 in WCS points standings.
I like to believe Koreans are born with the superior hand-eye coordination. Genetically enhanced APM ftw.
On December 14 2013 05:28 ffadicted wrote: When was the last time a foreign terran beat anybody? lol Other than Jinro and Thorzain in their primes, has any foreign terran ever impressed?
Everyone thinks Protoss imba vs. Terran because of the way it looks. Allins aside, when Terran wins it's because he did a lot of drops that weakned the Protoss or because he played very greedy and was able to outmacro his opponent. There is a lot that is visible going on and you can say "wow, that Terran player is playing well."
When Protoss wins, it's because Terran was very cost inneffective with his drops at the beginning of the game and lost a lot of units for free, or because he wasn't greedy enough against a passive Protoss who turtled to Colossus and Storm. The game is long over before the final battle, but the Terran won't actually leave the game. So there is a fight where the Protoss annihilates the Terran because T doesn't have enough upgrades, ghosts, and vikings, and then everyone cries imbalance.
But it's just perception. When you threaten drops, the correct response from Protos IS to turtle really hard and tech. Just like if a Protoss is blink allining, the correct response from Terran is to turtle really hard until Stim is done.
It's just that "deciding not to expand" is not a visual thing you can see whereas dropping some marines in a mineral line is. So you think Terran takes "more skill" when in reality both are decisions to do something that require thought. Selecting a medivac, pressing D, and clicking somewhere does not take nearly as much mehcanical skill as some Terrans would like you to think. I've done it. The decision of where and when to drop is much more important. Drop when he's on 2 bases? Bad idea. Drop as he's trying to take a greedy 3rd on Colo tech? Excellent.
On December 14 2013 05:28 ffadicted wrote: When was the last time a foreign terran beat anybody? lol Other than Jinro and Thorzain in their primes, has any foreign terran ever impressed?
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
You realize that this guy beat Life with like 70APM playing Terran, right?
A small part of my soul died that day along with my love for the game. It was the equivalent of an amature club 100m runner beating Usain Bolt
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
On December 13 2013 22:49 dani` wrote: Ah too bad, it was fun to watch his stream. He learned quickly and improved very fast, obviously he's an intelligent player. Only thing he consistently was poor at was macro, floating mass resources pretty quickly. I think the queuing from Terran might outweigh other advantages Protoss give him, but perhaps he just needed some more time to think about warping in every cycle and/or making other stuff. Regardless, I'm sad he stopped ;(! Good luck with Terran again anyways~!
Agreed. He also had serious problems getting used to warpgates hotkey vs. production facilities that can be queued; he tried to create groups with both types of buildings and it consistently screwed him up.
I see his current excuses about PvP as simply denial of the reasons why he was failing. PvP highlights whether you truly are using the race to it's fullest extent. You can't fudge around with production and screw up warp-in timings or forget to hotkey warpgates or allow resources to spike >1500+ @ only 100-120 supply and expect to win. Mechanics, plain and simple.
The reality is that while warping in units is a huge advantage of one type, being able to queue EVERYTHING and rally them to a particular place is also a huge advantage, and it takes serious time+practice to switch your playstyle up in such a way that you are taking advantage of totally different game mechanics efficiently.
I'm actually kind of sad that SJow just straight gave up after only a couple of weeks. Yes, PvP is frustrating when you lose, but if you can't handle losing mirror matchups you won't do very well as ANY race in this game.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
I can confirm the same thing sjow says. During beta I offraced as Protoss for an entire two weeks and became actually quite good at it.
Then in the last couple days i offraced for two days as Protoss.
I have already been beating masters level Protosses in PvP but it was mostly pure build order luck in my opinion when i won some of these games.
And then I would lose to diamond Protoss the next game...after just making a master Protoss look really, really bad...
I don't know how bad PvP was before the oracle buff, but it became just as bad as TvP after it it seems, there's now way too many build options to the point the match-up is more build order driven than skill driven in my opinion.
And also, as rank gets higher and higher...was playing more and more PvP over and over which can really get tiring. I was having hella fun as well at first offrace learning P and then my GF kept telling me to remember to have fun and stop looking angry lol and i realized after every PvP i played i felt entirely frustrated and almost angry @_@ because the games feel entirely out of my control.
And ladder right now is almost 50% Protoss...is this not worse than the end of wings of liberty Zerg? I suppose people can make their own judgements, but playing PvP all day would drive anyone mad.
On December 14 2013 05:54 mabla wrote: How come there are a lot more protoss players in every gm league (na,eu and kr), while every race has almost the same playerpool?
Because life is hard and more Protoss made it into GM. Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue? Do you see zergs breaking this thing out all the time?
On December 13 2013 21:39 Faust852 wrote: Haha, PvP more frustrating than TvP apparently. Welcome back, we need more terrans in GM
PvP is exactly why I'll never play Protoss as my primary race.
For everything else that makes Terran frustrating TvT is an absolute saving grace. It's by far the most fun mirror match up for me to play or watch. When I'm not playing Random, I prefer Terran. ZvZ and PvP just suck too much,
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
I can confirm the same thing sjow says. During beta I offraced as Protoss for an entire two weeks and became actually quite good at it.
Then in the last couple days i offraced for two days as Protoss.
I have already been beating masters level Protosses in PvP but it was mostly pure build order luck in my opinion when i won some of these games.
And then I would lose to diamond Protoss the next game...after just making a master Protoss look really, really bad...
I don't know how bad PvP was before the oracle buff, but it became just as bad as TvP after it it seems, there's now way too many build options to the point the match-up is more build order driven than skill driven in my opinion.
And also, as rank gets higher and higher...was playing more and more PvP over and over which can really get tiring. I was having hella fun as well at first offrace learning P and then my GF kept telling me to remember to have fun and stop looking angry lol and i realized after every PvP i played i felt entirely frustrated and almost angry @_@ because the games feel entirely out of my control.
And ladder right now is almost 50% Protoss...is this not worse than the end of wings of liberty Zerg? I suppose people can make their own judgements, but playing PvP all day would drive anyone mad.
Yet there are terrans in this thread that provide conflicting opinions, I think we can take your a grain of salt. Also you are the "Idra" of Terran, so there is that. The fact that you think PVP is totally out of your control is really amusing. Do you think Korean Protoss like Dear agree?
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
I can confirm the same thing sjow says. During beta I offraced as Protoss for an entire two weeks and became actually quite good at it.
Then in the last couple days i offraced for two days as Protoss.
I have already been beating masters level Protosses in PvP but it was mostly pure build order luck in my opinion when i won some of these games.
And then I would lose to diamond Protoss the next game...after just making a master Protoss look really, really bad...
I don't know how bad PvP was before the oracle buff, but it became just as bad as TvP after it it seems, there's now way too many build options to the point the match-up is more build order driven than skill driven in my opinion.
And also, as rank gets higher and higher...was playing more and more PvP over and over which can really get tiring. I was having hella fun as well at first offrace learning P and then my GF kept telling me to remember to have fun and stop looking angry lol and i realized after every PvP i played i felt entirely frustrated and almost angry @_@ because the games feel entirely out of my control.
And ladder right now is almost 50% Protoss...is this not worse than the end of wings of liberty Zerg? I suppose people can make their own judgements, but playing PvP all day would drive anyone mad.
Yet there are terrans in this thread that provide conflicting opinions, I think we can take your a grain of salt. Also you are the "Idra" of Terran, so there is that. The fact that you think PVP is totally out of your control is really amusing. Do you think Korean Protoss like Dear agree?
Why Dear... just ask Oz :p
Also reading Avilo's take on Toss is funny, not necessarily true but funny.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
I can confirm the same thing sjow says. During beta I offraced as Protoss for an entire two weeks and became actually quite good at it.
Then in the last couple days i offraced for two days as Protoss.
I have already been beating masters level Protosses in PvP but it was mostly pure build order luck in my opinion when i won some of these games.
And then I would lose to diamond Protoss the next game...after just making a master Protoss look really, really bad...
I don't know how bad PvP was before the oracle buff, but it became just as bad as TvP after it it seems, there's now way too many build options to the point the match-up is more build order driven than skill driven in my opinion.
And also, as rank gets higher and higher...was playing more and more PvP over and over which can really get tiring. I was having hella fun as well at first offrace learning P and then my GF kept telling me to remember to have fun and stop looking angry lol and i realized after every PvP i played i felt entirely frustrated and almost angry @_@ because the games feel entirely out of my control.
And ladder right now is almost 50% Protoss...is this not worse than the end of wings of liberty Zerg? I suppose people can make their own judgements, but playing PvP all day would drive anyone mad.
Yet there are terrans in this thread that provide conflicting opinions, I think we can take your a grain of salt. Also you are the "Idra" of Terran, so there is that. The fact that you think PVP is totally out of your control is really amusing. Do you think Korean Protoss like Dear agree?
They probably do. I believe Parting recently said in an interview something about the oracle buff being really bad and unasked for even by Protoss players. He's a korean player.
On December 14 2013 04:44 GoodJazz wrote: So good to see all the insulted protoss coming in here and having a good time. Keep it up lads. The fact that he made it to top master and had a decent win rate in a couple of days makes me think he would've reached GM if he kept pushing.
Yeah, he was pretty close to GM actually, which is truly impressive if in fact he had only been at it for 13 days.
When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there.
You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
I can confirm the same thing sjow says. During beta I offraced as Protoss for an entire two weeks and became actually quite good at it.
Then in the last couple days i offraced for two days as Protoss.
I have already been beating masters level Protosses in PvP but it was mostly pure build order luck in my opinion when i won some of these games.
And then I would lose to diamond Protoss the next game...after just making a master Protoss look really, really bad...
I don't know how bad PvP was before the oracle buff, but it became just as bad as TvP after it it seems, there's now way too many build options to the point the match-up is more build order driven than skill driven in my opinion.
And also, as rank gets higher and higher...was playing more and more PvP over and over which can really get tiring. I was having hella fun as well at first offrace learning P and then my GF kept telling me to remember to have fun and stop looking angry lol and i realized after every PvP i played i felt entirely frustrated and almost angry @_@ because the games feel entirely out of my control.
And ladder right now is almost 50% Protoss...is this not worse than the end of wings of liberty Zerg? I suppose people can make their own judgements, but playing PvP all day would drive anyone mad.
Yet there are terrans in this thread that provide conflicting opinions, I think we can take your a grain of salt. Also you are the "Idra" of Terran, so there is that. The fact that you think PVP is totally out of your control is really amusing. Do you think Korean Protoss like Dear agree?
They probably do. I believe Parting recently said in an interview something about the oracle buff being really bad and unasked for even by Protoss players. He's a korean player.
Naniwa said the same thing.
Edit: And thinking about it, I actually remember Dear saying something like that as well in an interview.
On December 14 2013 05:54 mabla wrote: How come there are a lot more protoss players in every gm league (na,eu and kr), while every race has almost the same playerpool?
Because life is hard and more Protoss made it into GM. Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue? Do you see zergs breaking this thing out all the time?
Because the same thing happens across all ladders. Can't just ignore it. There is .0000000001% that this is random.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
I can confirm the same thing sjow says. During beta I offraced as Protoss for an entire two weeks and became actually quite good at it.
Then in the last couple days i offraced for two days as Protoss.
I have already been beating masters level Protosses in PvP but it was mostly pure build order luck in my opinion when i won some of these games.
And then I would lose to diamond Protoss the next game...after just making a master Protoss look really, really bad...
I don't know how bad PvP was before the oracle buff, but it became just as bad as TvP after it it seems, there's now way too many build options to the point the match-up is more build order driven than skill driven in my opinion.
And also, as rank gets higher and higher...was playing more and more PvP over and over which can really get tiring. I was having hella fun as well at first offrace learning P and then my GF kept telling me to remember to have fun and stop looking angry lol and i realized after every PvP i played i felt entirely frustrated and almost angry @_@ because the games feel entirely out of my control.
And ladder right now is almost 50% Protoss...is this not worse than the end of wings of liberty Zerg? I suppose people can make their own judgements, but playing PvP all day would drive anyone mad.
Yet there are terrans in this thread that provide conflicting opinions, I think we can take your a grain of salt. Also you are the "Idra" of Terran, so there is that. The fact that you think PVP is totally out of your control is really amusing. Do you think Korean Protoss like Dear agree?
They probably do. I believe Parting recently said in an interview something about the oracle buff being really bad and unasked for even by Protoss players. He's a korean player.
Yes, but his PvP is fucking stellar, and not at all a conflip. His build is really well designed to scout for/be prepared for everything. Did you see him manhandle sOs 4-1 at Red Bull?
His Oracle concerns were mostly for PvP. 3 Stalker pressure which was quite common now just instantly loses to the new Oracles because the 1-2 defensive Stalkers you warp in can't actually kill it before it gets away. So then it comes back.
Vs Terran I don't know what the problem is. Either you have a Turret in your mineral line and it does nothing or you don't and it kills all your workers. This was the same before the speed buff.
On December 14 2013 04:59 ZenithM wrote: I'm sorry to say this, but I think Sjow just isn't really good, and in particular doesn't have much of what makes a Terran usually shine over a Protoss (mainly mechanics, multitasking and micro). I'd say his preferred playstyle (slow but "smart") is more adapted to Protoss, but he didn't stick to the race long enough so it didn't really show (huehuehue).
What this is is really just a failed experiment, as all the fellow Protoss in this thread loved to point out, I'm sure. So, until proven otherwise, there are 50% Protoss in GM because 1) Protoss players are just better, 2) Nobody wants to play the humans, 3) they worked harder than the others (I read that in this thread).
That might well be true. We all have individual stylistic preferences and each race seems to be optimized towards a certain set of play styles (although, even this is complicated in that certain styles of play are more playable in some match-ups than others). This is one reason why even a successful swap to another race may not indicate anything other than finding a better fit for one's physical and mental skill set in SC2. Of course, with Sjow, we won't find out because he quit. Not that I'm all that surprised that he quit at the first sight of a few hurdles. Given his whine throughout his "experiment" and his shit-talk, I doubt it was ever a serious attempt to learn another race. He cheesed hard and often in PvT and was woeful in PvZ and PvP. So, yeah, I have little sympathy for him and am quite glad that he has ended up eating his own shit. So much for the Sjow.
As to the 50% Protoss GM, it's neither 1 or 2 or 3. I have no idea why that stat is what it is (assuming it is true) and am not sure if it even indicates anything of significance (there is no reason why racial representation on ladder should be 33.3% all the time). Of course, next season may be different and this may look yet another storm in the easily stirred SC2 tea-cup.
Please, Parting doesn't think the game is out of his control. Neither does Jeadong, Innovation, Dear or any champion level player. They may comment of buffs and patches, but they do not think they have no control over the outcome of a game. Anyone claiming that is just making shit up to prove their point.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Because life is hard
I don't think thats the right explanation for this peculiarity.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: more Protoss made it into GM.
Exactly, thats the question to answer! Why are there more Protoss in GM than their share in the playerpool would justify?
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue?
Because statistics are pretty good evidence in most cases. I mean, you could just lick your finger, put it in the air and state: The wind says everything is balanced. But i personally thinks stats are a better foundation to draw conclusions from.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Do you see zergs breaking this thing out all the time?
I don't see the relevance of this topic for the discussion.
When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there.
You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you.
Why would balance issues weed out foreign Terrans but not Korean Terrans?
It's because Korean Terrans (and Protoss, and Zerg) train much harder. They're not born witha genetic predisposition to Starcraft.
Meanwhile, foreign Terrans constantly bitch and whine about how imba P is. Sjow does it. Avilo does it. ALL YOUR FRIENDS DO IT.
The phrase "Protoss imba" is the worst thing that ever happened to foreign Terrans. It needs to go away.
When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there.
You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you.
Why would balance issues weed out foreign Terrans but not Korean Terrans?
It's because Korean Terrans (and Protoss, and Zerg) train much harder. They're not born witha genetic predisposition to Starcraft.
Meanwhile, foreign Terrans constantly bitch and whine about how imba P is. Sjow does it. Avilo does it. ALL YOUR FRIENDS DO IT.
Why finns are so good in PvP? I have asked many fellow finnish protoss players and they say same. Most finnish players say that their best matchup is PvP, like elfi, Welmu and many more...me!
I have always loved PvP coz I understand 100% matchup and nothing imba will beat me. I always aim for macro games. Even when it was 4gate vs 4gate I almost never did 4gate.
When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there.
You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you.
Why would balance issues weed out foreign Terrans but not Korean Terrans?
It's because Korean Terrans (and Protoss, and Zerg) train much harder. They're not born witha genetic predisposition to Starcraft.
Meanwhile, foreign Terrans constantly bitch and whine about how imba P is. Sjow does it. Avilo does it. ALL YOUR FRIENDS DO IT.
When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there.
You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you.
Why would balance issues weed out foreign Terrans but not Korean Terrans?
It's because Korean Terrans (and Protoss, and Zerg) train much harder. They're not born witha genetic predisposition to Starcraft.
Meanwhile, foreign Terrans constantly bitch and whine about how imba P is. Sjow does it. Avilo does it. ALL YOUR FRIENDS DO IT.
The phrase "Protoss imba" is the worst thing that ever happened to foreign Terrans. It needs to go away.
Unless you have some actual numbers (like hours played per race) that back up your statement that foreign terrans are bad because they bitch about P being imba instead of actually practicing, this is nothing more than opinion and not an actual argument. It is also completely devoid of logical train of thought.
But of course you don't. On the other hand, there are actual stats (and even graphs) that show that protoss representation in leagues rises the higher the league gets, worst being ML and GM.
You name two terran players (Sjow and Avilo) and make a conclusion that all foreign terrans are lazy and just bitch instead of practicing.That is nothing but harsh generalization.
It would be the same if someone said "foreign terrans are the most hard working players because Kas has 20.000 career ladder games"
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue?
Because statistics are pretty good evidence in most cases. I mean, you could just lick your finger, put it in the air and state: The wind says everything is balanced. But i personally thinks stats are a better foundation to draw conclusions from.
On December 14 2013 06:35 Nebuchad wrote: Now we need a good toss to switch to terran for three weeks and get top 50 GM.
I guess it could be pretty amusing to watch him put down a supply depot near his opponent's natural and then wonder why his marines aren't warping in properly.
On December 14 2013 06:35 Nebuchad wrote: Now we need a good toss to switch to terran for three weeks and get top 50 GM.
I guess it could be pretty amusing to watch him put down a supply depot near his opponent's natural and then wonder why his marines aren't warping in properly.
I can see the proxy supply depots already. And the protoss scouts the terran main and panics after counting the number of depots.
No offence to SjoW or anything, but I definitely saw this coming. This entire 'I'm switching races to Protoss and get top GM' was just a long dragged out balance whine. I know he's a great player and all, but please, Protoss requires just as much skill to master as Terran. It just so happens Protoss has a few stronger late game units. Stick to Terran SjoW, hope you do well in the future with it
I'm very happy you tried to switch anyway. I think your TvP matchup will benefit a lot from it, probably your play overall as well, since you viewed the game from a different perspective in the last 2 weeks.
Best of luck, hope to see you stream a lot anyway in the future.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Because life is hard
I don't think thats the right explanation for this peculiarity.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: more Protoss made it into GM.
Exactly, thats the question to answer! Why are there more Protoss in GM than their share in the playerpool would justify?
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue?
Because statistics are pretty good evidence in most cases. I mean, you could just lick your finger, put it in the air and state: The wind says everything is balanced. But i personally thinks stats are a better foundation to draw conclusions from.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Do you see zergs breaking this thing out all the time?
I don't see the relevance of this topic for the discussion.
Don't feed the troll. He loved his philosophical agruments while rarely added any real content to the discussion.
I don't know, it is quite amusing to read threads where someone continues to chime in their 2 cents of baloney ^^
Toss gets a lot of stick though due to having the highest numbers at high masters/GM in every single server. There is simply no arguments against the fact that it is easier to reach the higher levels with Protoss. But, I wonder how a lot of these no-name players are making the higher levels of league. Is it that Protoss is straight up just easier to play, or is it due to Protoss having a lot more gimmicky play that is surprisingly powerful on ladder, 1 base all ins, oracle cheese, cannon rush, proxy gates etc?
Maybe straight up Protoss players are being misrepresented by a large number of lets call them "cheesey Tossers" who are shooting way above their MMR station due to a wide variety of gimmicky play the have at disposal. At Pro level Protoss has the lowest amount of tournie wins despite being top dogs on ladder for a long time.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Because life is hard
I don't think thats the right explanation for this peculiarity.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: more Protoss made it into GM.
Exactly, thats the question to answer! Why are there more Protoss in GM than their share in the playerpool would justify?
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue?
Because statistics are pretty good evidence in most cases. I mean, you could just lick your finger, put it in the air and state: The wind says everything is balanced. But i personally thinks stats are a better foundation to draw conclusions from.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Do you see zergs breaking this thing out all the time?
I don't see the relevance of this topic for the discussion.
Don't feed the troll. He loved his philosophical agruments while rarely added any real content to the discussion.
I don't know, it is quite amusing to read threads where someone continues to chime in their 2 cents of baloney ^^
Toss gets a lot of stick though due to having the highest numbers at high masters/GM in every single server. There is simply no arguments against the fact that it is easier to reach the higher levels with Protoss. But, I wonder how a lot of these no-name players are making the higher levels of league. Is it that Protoss is straight up just easier to play, or is it due to Protoss having a lot more gimmicky play that is surprisingly powerful on ladder, 1 base all ins, oracle cheese, cannon rush, proxy gates etc?
Maybe straight up Protoss players are being misrepresented by a large number of lets call them "cheesey Tossers" who are shooting way above their MMR station due to a wide variety of gimmicky play the have at disposal. At Pro level Protoss has the lowest amount of tournie wins despite being top dogs on ladder for a long time.
It WAS easier, but now the that there is 50% protoss on the ladder, the opportunity to PvT to GM is gone. I think that was Sjow mistake too, thinking that breaking GM protoss is still easy now, and putting up a too ambitious goal. Anybody who can get GM now has to have really good PvP.
It's definitely a ladder race, atm. Just like anybody with 2 hands could have gotten into GM in WoL with terran, if they were proxy raxing every game. In HotS, apparently any protoss clown can get GM if they're devoted to all-in'ing enough. It's nothing to be lauded. But, the goal isn't to be a ladder hero. What counts is winning tournaments. If you know your opponent is cheesy and you still lose, well you probably deserve to.
Talking about ladder stats, as if it means anything meaningful, when one race has the best all-in's atm, means jack. Weedamins and maxblack aren't going to be winning the GSL anytime soon. They have a hard enough time/can't get GM as is.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Because life is hard
I don't think thats the right explanation for this peculiarity.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: more Protoss made it into GM.
Exactly, thats the question to answer! Why are there more Protoss in GM than their share in the playerpool would justify?
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue?
Because statistics are pretty good evidence in most cases. I mean, you could just lick your finger, put it in the air and state: The wind says everything is balanced. But i personally thinks stats are a better foundation to draw conclusions from.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Do you see zergs breaking this thing out all the time?
I don't see the relevance of this topic for the discussion.
Don't feed the troll. He loved his philosophical agruments while rarely added any real content to the discussion.
I don't know, it is quite amusing to read threads where someone continues to chime in their 2 cents of baloney ^^
Toss gets a lot of stick though due to having the highest numbers at high masters/GM in every single server. There is simply no arguments against the fact that it is easier to reach the higher levels with Protoss. But, I wonder how a lot of these no-name players are making the higher levels of league. Is it that Protoss is straight up just easier to play, or is it due to Protoss having a lot more gimmicky play that is surprisingly powerful on ladder, 1 base all ins, oracle cheese, cannon rush, proxy gates etc?
Maybe straight up Protoss players are being misrepresented by a large number of lets call them "cheesey Tossers" who are shooting way above their MMR station due to a wide variety of gimmicky play the have at disposal. At Pro level Protoss has the lowest amount of tournie wins despite being top dogs on ladder for a long time.
It WAS easier, but now the that there is 50% protoss on the ladder, the opportunity to PvT to GM is gone. I think that was Sjow mistake too, thinking that breaking GM protoss is still easy now, and putting up a too ambitious goal. Anybody who can get GM now has to have really good PvP.
The 50% is only at GM level. Apart from high masters/GM Protoss is fairly equal to Zerg and Terran in distribution terms. I was just stating another reason why Protoss may be able climb to those the high ranks faster and in more numbers rather than just "the race is ezpz".
When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there.
You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you.
Why would balance issues weed out foreign Terrans but not Korean Terrans?
It's because Korean Terrans (and Protoss, and Zerg) train much harder. They're not born witha genetic predisposition to Starcraft.
Meanwhile, foreign Terrans constantly bitch and whine about how imba P is. Sjow does it. Avilo does it. ALL YOUR FRIENDS DO IT.
The phrase "Protoss imba" is the worst thing that ever happened to foreign Terrans. It needs to go away.
Korean GM 42% P, 26% T Last WCS Korea PvT : 56.14% Last 4 tournaments including TOP Koreans (WCS Korea,WCS Finals,Blizzcom,Hot6ix Cup) - all won by P, 0 T finalists Finalists of last 10 premier tournaments: P: 9 ,Z: 9 ,T:2
When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there.
You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you.
Why would balance issues weed out foreign Terrans but not Korean Terrans?
It's because Korean Terrans (and Protoss, and Zerg) train much harder. They're not born witha genetic predisposition to Starcraft.
Meanwhile, foreign Terrans constantly bitch and whine about how imba P is. Sjow does it. Avilo does it. ALL YOUR FRIENDS DO IT.
The phrase "Protoss imba" is the worst thing that ever happened to foreign Terrans. It needs to go away.
Korean GM 42% P, 26% T Last WCS Korea PvT : 56.14% Last 4 tournaments including TOP Koreans (WCS Korea,WCS Finals,Blizzcom,Hot6ix Cup) - all won by P, 0 T finalists Finalists of last 10 premier tournaments: P: 9 ,Z: 9 ,T:2
So no Koreans Terrans are not doing well.
This is not statistically significant.
How many PvTs were played at the last WCS Korea?
Also, Taeja alone has won more tournaments than that.
On December 14 2013 07:21 playa wrote: It's definitely a ladder race, atm. Just like anybody with 2 hands could have gotten into GM in WoL with terran, if they were proxy raxing every game. In HotS, apparently any protoss clown can get GM if they're devoted to all-in'ing enough. It's nothing to be lauded. But, the goal isn't to be a ladder hero. What counts is winning tournaments. If you know your opponent is cheesy and you still lose, well you probably deserve to.
Talking about ladder stats, as if it means anything meaningful, when one race has the best all-in's atm, means jack. Weedamins and maxblack aren't going to be winning the GSL anytime soon. They have a hard enough time/can't get GM as is.
In WoL there ws always more P than T in GM league. So probably not to much people came with that idea.
When was the last time you saw a "top foreign Terran" play a top Korean Protoss in the first place? Most of these foreign Terrans are just like Sjow... they're the types of players that complain about region locking and PvT imba and all that stuff. There are two foreign players that stand out miles above the rest. I don't think it's by accident. They obviously are the hardest workers out there.
You got the causality the completely wrong way. There aren't many foreign terrans because of balance issues. For some reason you just assumed that terrans per definition is worse less hardworking players that likes to whine, and that's why we should expect them to perform worse. That seemed like a quite bias'ed argument by you.
Why would balance issues weed out foreign Terrans but not Korean Terrans?
It's because Korean Terrans (and Protoss, and Zerg) train much harder. They're not born witha genetic predisposition to Starcraft.
Meanwhile, foreign Terrans constantly bitch and whine about how imba P is. Sjow does it. Avilo does it. ALL YOUR FRIENDS DO IT.
The phrase "Protoss imba" is the worst thing that ever happened to foreign Terrans. It needs to go away.
Korean GM 42% P, 26% T Last WCS Korea PvT : 56.14% Last 4 tournaments including TOP Koreans (WCS Korea,WCS Finals,Blizzcom,Hot6ix Cup) - all won by P, 0 T finalists Finalists of last 10 premier tournaments: P: 9 ,Z: 9 ,T:2
So no Koreans Terrans are not doing well.
This is not statistically significant.
How many PvTs were played at the last WCS Korea?
Also, Taeja alone has won more tournaments than that.
I know statistic are usually irrelevant on these forums. 64–50 (56.14%) Taeja has these 2 Terran spots in finals (Dreamhack and HSC wins)
I think SjoW already proved the point by having almost 75% in PvT. He was days away from GM anyways, Imagine if ladder was balanced between races, then he already be GM for sure. It feels like artosis once said there are 4 races terran, zerg, protoss and korean terrans. The fourth race terran struggles in TvP right now no doubt about it.
On December 13 2013 21:17 Tosster wrote: You wouldn't make it, sorry Sjow. Not so "imba" eh?
If you'd bothered to truly read his post you'd know that it was mostly because of the PvP matchup that he's ending his Protoss experiment. His opinions on the other matchups remain unchanged.
the post you quoted still makes sense. If pvt is imba he would eventually do better in pvp than in disadvantaged tvp. He would also do better in pvt (obviously) than in tvt (again, if he had given himself some time). I don't really undertand Sjow's reasoning. U don't give up on a race that you think suits you better and is OP (at the moment) just because there are too many mirror matchups lately.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
As far as I can tell, Sjow claims that he tried switching to Protoss for a couple weeks, got to Masters, and then got frustrated by PvP and decided to go back to Terran. You suspect that his real reason is because Protoss turned out not to be as imbalanced as he thought, but do you have any real evidence for that claim? Sjow's narrative is perfectly plausible. If he got into Master's, still had a very good win rate PvT, but had no idea about PvP, does that really prove Protoss is harder than he thought?
I mean, PvP isn't very similar to basically any other matchup (maybe ZvZ), so any Terran that switches is basically starting from scratch trying to learn it. Added to that, most people don't find it very fun, either. If you're just switching for a little while to learn about Protoss play from the other side (probably hoping to get some inspiration about how to play TvP), it wouldn't make sense to invest lots of effort into learning a weird, alien matchup that doesn't really cross-apply to Terran play. So when PvP clearly became the thing holding Sjow back as Protoss, he needed to either commit to switching full-time to Protoss and start trying to learn PvP, or figure this off-racing venture had run its course and its time to go back to Terran.
So couldn't we just not draw balance conclusions either way from this? "Whether or not Sjow made it into GM in two weeks off-racing as Protoss" is hardly a reliable metric of balance anyway.
On December 13 2013 23:50 Faust852 wrote: [quote] Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
Except for demuslim...? I hear he is pretty good.
Look at him playing, he almost never use these control, except as I said, spamming them early.
I watch his stream a lot with my fiancé, he uses them all the time to mark rally points, to keep an eye on the opponents ramp. He says he uses them out loud during his stream. Why are you trying to tell people map hot keys are bad? They are super useful as Protoss for quick chrono boosting and warp ins.
Almost all pros use them all the time. Don't listen to the silver heros in here.
Silver hero lmao. Srly, these guys..
Saying camera hotkey are ultra important to up into GM is ridiculous considering how much 70 APM protoss there are in GM currently.
I never said you had to use location hotkeys to get into GM. But it seriously compromises the speed and effeciency in which you can do things. I would say that by just not using them your mechanics can instantly be classified as bad.
I consider myself solid (not perfect ofc) at macro and I don't use them, that doesn't prevent me to reach high master, and I know using them won't change a lot my play and my level, as I said in my previous post, there are A LOT of thing to work on before starting to use camera location.
You think you're solid and you think they won't help much based on your vast RTS experience... surely that must outweigh the general consensus that they're really useful. People get to masters all the time with bad habits. It's not hard to start using location hotkeys and it simply makes you faster and more action efficient at taking new expansions and worker transfers. It's especially important later on when your multitasking/apm is stretched and you're looking to take and saturate a 4th/5th. I have nfi why someone who plays the game at a good level would choose not to use them beyond some combination of stubbornness, ignorance or laziness.
Cant speak for protoss or terran here. Im zerg and i havent touched camera hotkeys nor base rotation ever, yet im quite comfortable with my macro in GM league. it doesnt really matter if you use them or not if youre fast and accurate in what youre doing. Also its almost impossible to force yourself to switch using sth new such as camera hotkeys when you never have done it - my muscle memory has been set for this for 3 years now ^^
It doesn't matter if you're 'comfortable'. It could simply be better. You're kidding yourself if you think it doesn't really matter and it's not impossible to switch at all. I'd played BW for 3-4 years before switching to location hotkeys and it was only really uncomfortable for the first few games and felt natural after a week or two.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
maybe he will eventually realize its not the race , but the fact that he has poor mechanics. love moments like these when players switch races and realize the other race has its own problems to deal with.
His mech is very impressive. He crushed desrow in a bo1 on ladder. Still though, can't help but think he's selling himself short starting in mid masters (even with gm mmr). He's doing a lot of timing attacks which top gms could probably stop easily and he might develop lazy mechanics like that.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
I don't understand that logic?
First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).
Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
I don't understand that logic?
First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).
Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.
You are confused with about my statement. Both low AMP and not using camera hot keys are undeniably bad habits and any pro player should try and break. Instead of breaking these bad habits, SjoW complains that protoss is the ez pz race and went on his 13 day adventure to reach top 50 GM. When he didn't make it and became frustrated, he again blamed another aspect of the game, rather than look to what he could have done to do better.
Do you see the cycle? Do you know what Jeadong told Xenocider when the young terran was having trouble with protoss, "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could." And then a few weeks later Xeno won 10K in Korea.
Friends don't let friends whine about imbalance, because it just makes them crappier players.
On December 14 2013 11:11 TRaFFiC wrote: His mech is very impressive. He crushed desrow in a bo1 on ladder. Still though, can't help but think he's selling himself short starting in mid masters (even with gm mmr). He's doing a lot of timing attacks which top gms could probably stop easily and he might develop lazy mechanics like that.
Haha I can't even tell if these first 2 sentences were ironic :D
Regardless, the hour of judgement will come, my fellow Protoss. Don't worry, it will come. In the past, I would have fiercely said "FEAR MY ALL-IN WRATH ON THE LADDER!" but we all know you're not afraid of much of anything Terran does in the first 10 minutes these days, amirite?
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
I don't understand that logic?
First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).
Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.
You are confused with about my statement. Both low AMP and not using camera hot keys are undeniably bad habits and any pro player should try and break. Instead of breaking these bad habits, SjoW complains that protoss is the ez pz race and went on his 13 day adventure to reach top 50 GM. When he didn't make it and became frustrated, he again blamed another aspect of the game, rather than look to what he could have done to do better.
Do you see the cycle? Do you know what Jeadong told Xenocider when the young terran was having trouble with protoss, "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could." And then a few weeks later Xeno won 10K in Korea.
Friends don't let friends whine about imbalance, because it just makes them crappier players.
Im just gonna repeat your quote:
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance.
Can you clear up the confusion. Is your problem with sjow or somebody else?
The first thing I thought after reading the title was the "You don't say?!" meme. Expectable... PvT isn't hard, but PvZ might really be and PvP is totally crazy/hard to master.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
I don't understand that logic?
First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).
Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.
You are confused with about my statement. Both low AMP and not using camera hot keys are undeniably bad habits and any pro player should try and break. Instead of breaking these bad habits, SjoW complains that protoss is the ez pz race and went on his 13 day adventure to reach top 50 GM. When he didn't make it and became frustrated, he again blamed another aspect of the game, rather than look to what he could have done to do better.
Do you see the cycle? Do you know what Jeadong told Xenocider when the young terran was having trouble with protoss, "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could." And then a few weeks later Xeno won 10K in Korea.
Friends don't let friends whine about imbalance, because it just makes them crappier players.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance.
Can you clear up the confusion. Is your problem with sjow or somebody else?
I think you answered your own question there. Does SjoW whine about balance? Yes. Do I think that whining about balance makes your play crappier and makes you an overall worse player? Yep.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not. I've played it.
In fact my buddy has 85% win rate TvP as a RANDOM player. And he only mechs!
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
People think terran is harder than the other races because the other races have had far more success in the foreigner scene. If terran was roughly as hard as the other races then we'd see roughly the same number of foreigner terrans in later stages of tournaments. But how often does that happen? Very rarely. It's not unusual (relatively speaking) to see foreign zergs or protosses advance in tournaments by beating Koreans but it almost never happens with terrans. You can go all the way back to mid 2011 or so and you'll notice this trend. I don't know who you're trying to kid if you think terran isn't harder than other races (at high levels).
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
I don't understand that logic?
First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).
Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.
You are confused with about my statement. Both low AMP and not using camera hot keys are undeniably bad habits and any pro player should try and break. Instead of breaking these bad habits, SjoW complains that protoss is the ez pz race and went on his 13 day adventure to reach top 50 GM. When he didn't make it and became frustrated, he again blamed another aspect of the game, rather than look to what he could have done to do better.
Do you see the cycle? Do you know what Jeadong told Xenocider when the young terran was having trouble with protoss, "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could." And then a few weeks later Xeno won 10K in Korea.
Friends don't let friends whine about imbalance, because it just makes them crappier players.
Im just gonna repeat your quote:
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance.
Can you clear up the confusion. Is your problem with sjow or somebody else?
I think you answered your own question there. Does SjoW whine about balance? Yes. Do I think that whining about balance makes your play crappier and makes you an overall worse player? Yep.
Well in this small sample size it would seem to be that balance whining makes you a much better player.
I personally believe the game is fairly balanced now. Everything can be beaten if scouted correctly and you are willing to change orders at the drop of a hat.
He went from stating Protoss is "imba as hell" before he began, to stating that Protoss is only imba versus Terran in the end.
...
On December 14 2013 11:51 pookums wrote: It's not unusual (relatively speaking) to see foreign zergs or protosses advance in tournaments by beating Koreans but it almost never happens with terrans..
There is this guy, you probably don't know him, probably weren't around when he was playing, but his name is Jinro. He has been the most successful foreigner in GSL history, more so than Idra, more so than Ret, more so than Naniwa.
And he was Terran.
And there is this other guy, his name is Thorzain... you may have forgotten but he won TSL3. He was pretty much a no-name before that tournament. And in that tournament he beat Fruitdealer and MC, two GSL champions at their peak on his way to victory.
And he was also Terran.
What foreign Protosses have been that good? Huk and Naniwa are the top performers, but their achievements are on par with Jinro and Thorzain. Stephano really skews everything, he was amazing, and made Zerg look so good. But beyond him, what great foreign Zergs do we have? Idra probably has the most achievements, Scarlett looks really good right now, but who else?
On December 14 2013 14:23 BronzeKnee wrote: He went from stating Protoss is "imba as hell" before he began, to stating that Protoss is only imba versus Terran in the end.
On December 14 2013 14:23 BronzeKnee wrote: He went from stating Protoss is "imba as hell" before he began, to stating that Protoss is only imba versus Terran in the end.
On December 14 2013 11:51 pookums wrote: It's not unusual (relatively speaking) to see foreign zergs or protosses advance in tournaments by beating Koreans but it almost never happens with terrans..
There is this guy, you probably don't know him, probably weren't around when he was playing, but his name is Jinro. He has been the most successful foreigner in GSL history, more so than Idra, more so than Ret, more so than Naniwa.
And he was Terran.
And there is this other guy, his name is Thorzain... you may have forgotten but he won TSL3. He was pretty much a no-name before that tournament. And in that tournament he beat Fruitdealer and MC, two GSL champions at their peak on his way to victory.
And he was also Terran.
What foreign Protosses have been that good? Huk and Naniwa are the top performers, but their achievements are on par with Jinro and Thorzain. Stephano really skews everything, he was amazing, and made Zerg look so good. But beyond him, what great foreign Zergs do we have? Idra probably has the most achievements, Scarlett looks really good right now, but who else?
LOL What a load of crockshit
Thorzain played in a tournament where there wasn't even that many Koreans, yeah MC and Fruitdealer were in there but it's not like it was loaded with Koreans. Naniwa's GSL runs was way more impressive than Jinro's even though Jinro got farther. Naniwa did it in a harder tournament by far. Also you look at who's winning tournaments. That's a horrible way to judge success. Are we going to say MVPSniper is really that good even though he won a GSL? Look at the best foreigners and look how long they've been good. Naniwa's been on the scene forever. Scarlett's been on a rampage beating really good players, even if she's not winning stuff. And we all know about Stephano. Look whatever you want but foreign Terrans are the whipping boys of the foreign scene. There's a reason why it's "Korean Terrans" and everyone else.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
I don't understand that logic?
First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).
Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.
You are confused with about my statement. Both low AMP and not using camera hot keys are undeniably bad habits and any pro player should try and break. Instead of breaking these bad habits, SjoW complains that protoss is the ez pz race and went on his 13 day adventure to reach top 50 GM. When he didn't make it and became frustrated, he again blamed another aspect of the game, rather than look to what he could have done to do better.
Do you see the cycle? Do you know what Jeadong told Xenocider when the young terran was having trouble with protoss, "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could." And then a few weeks later Xeno won 10K in Korea.
Friends don't let friends whine about imbalance, because it just makes them crappier players.
Im just gonna repeat your quote:
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance.
Can you clear up the confusion. Is your problem with sjow or somebody else?
I think you answered your own question there. Does SjoW whine about balance? Yes. Do I think that whining about balance makes your play crappier and makes you an overall worse player? Yep.
This implies that talking about imbalance means you're trying less hard and this affects your play. That doesn't always happen.
On December 14 2013 15:06 Chaggi wrote: Also you look at who's winning tournaments. That's a horrible way to judge success.
I'm not sure if your trolling... maybe it is a language barrier issue?
suc·cess [suhk-ses] noun 1. the favorable or prosperous termination of attempts or endeavors; the accomplishment of one's goals. 2. the attainment of wealth, position, honors, or the like. 3. a performance or achievement that is marked by success, as by the attainment of honors: The play was an instant success. 4. a person or thing that has had success, as measured by attainment of goals, wealth, etc.: She was a great success on the talk show.
Winning is the measure of success in competition. There is no other objective measure.
On December 14 2013 15:36 Let it Raine wrote: it still boggles my mind that the average gamer thinks their opinion is correct, at all
Why? It doesn't matter who says it, or who does it, right it right and wrong is wrong.
What you are presenting is argument from authority, which is a logical fallacy. Just because David Kim is David Kim doesn't mean he is right, and plenty of us "average gamers" have been right a lot of the time.
Balancing a game isn't rocket science, don't try to pull the wool over people's eyes and pretend it is.
I laid it all out for Blizzard. I laid out how the Warp Gate change would allow for the 1-1-1 to exist, how it would kill Gate expands in PvZ and why ramps needed to be fix. Six months later, they finally fixed ramps, the 1-1-1 was dominant, and Gate expands died in PvZ. All that happened. So who was right?
And I was certainly not the only one who thought these things... many people did, but Blizzard didn't listen... and then months later they ended up essentially doing what the "average gamers" like me said they should.
This is not mind boggling work that the average gamer can't comprehend. What is incomprehensible is that the Warhound even made it to Beta, or that the Replicant was seen by the public. Such bad unit ideas are products of a team that doesn't understand the game at all. Evident by the fact they were removed. And they are paid to do their job.
On December 14 2013 06:20 Hider wrote: Quoting Dear
There’s a lot of variability in the mirror matchup, and after the most recent patch I don’t feel like I understand the match-up at all.
One could interpret variability as coinflipness.
Or the patch changed the match up so much he needs to relearn it.
You just like to continuously argue to try and save face, atleast that's the image I'm getting from you. When people balance whine sometimes there's credence to it. You didn't have to relearn the whole match up to have see that hellbats were imbalanced. Oracles are too easy to control and offer way too much reward for such little risk. They made it easier to control with increased speed and acceleration, hence why it's currently imbalanced.
On December 14 2013 06:20 Hider wrote: Quoting Dear
There’s a lot of variability in the mirror matchup, and after the most recent patch I don’t feel like I understand the match-up at all.
One could interpret variability as coinflipness.
Or the patch changed the match up so much he needs to relearn it.
You just like to continuously argue to try and save face, atleast that's the image I'm getting from you. When people balance whine sometimes there's credence to it. You didn't have to relearn the whole match up to have see that hellbats were imbalanced. Oracles are too easy to control and offer way too much reward for such little risk. They made it easier to control with increased speed and acceleration, hence why it's currently imbalanced.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Because life is hard
I don't think thats the right explanation for this peculiarity.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: more Protoss made it into GM.
Exactly, thats the question to answer! Why are there more Protoss in GM than their share in the playerpool would justify?
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Why do Terran throw down with this stat every time they don't have anything else to argue?
Because statistics are pretty good evidence in most cases. I mean, you could just lick your finger, put it in the air and state: The wind says everything is balanced. But i personally thinks stats are a better foundation to draw conclusions from.
On December 14 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote: Do you see zergs breaking this thing out all the time?
I don't see the relevance of this topic for the discussion.
Don't feed the troll. He loved his philosophical agruments while rarely added any real content to the discussion.
Yeah, he is truly a philosoph like I've never seen before!! A philosophical powerhouse this guy.
On December 14 2013 14:23 BronzeKnee wrote: He went from stating Protoss is "imba as hell" before he began, to stating that Protoss is only imba versus Terran in the end.
On December 14 2013 11:51 pookums wrote: It's not unusual (relatively speaking) to see foreign zergs or protosses advance in tournaments by beating Koreans but it almost never happens with terrans..
There is this guy, you probably don't know him, probably weren't around when he was playing, but his name is Jinro. He has been the most successful foreigner in GSL history, more so than Idra, more so than Ret, more so than Naniwa.
And he was Terran.
And there is this other guy, his name is Thorzain... you may have forgotten but he won TSL3. He was pretty much a no-name before that tournament. And in that tournament he beat Fruitdealer and MC, two GSL champions at their peak on his way to victory.
And he was also Terran.
What foreign Protosses have been that good? Huk and Naniwa are the top performers, but their achievements are on par with Jinro and Thorzain. Stephano really skews everything, he was amazing, and made Zerg look so good. But beyond him, what great foreign Zergs do we have? Idra probably has the most achievements, Scarlett looks really good right now, but who else?
April 2012 - last time T foreigner played in final of Premier tournament. Before that i was March 2011.
On December 14 2013 15:06 Chaggi wrote: Also you look at who's winning tournaments. That's a horrible way to judge success.
I'm not sure if your trolling... maybe it is a language barrier issue?
suc·cess [suhk-ses] noun 1. the favorable or prosperous termination of attempts or endeavors; the accomplishment of one's goals. 2. the attainment of wealth, position, honors, or the like. 3. a performance or achievement that is marked by success, as by the attainment of honors: The play was an instant success. 4. a person or thing that has had success, as measured by attainment of goals, wealth, etc.: She was a great success on the talk show.
Winning is the measure of success in competition. There is no other objective measure.
Youre* And I'm not. You quoting a dictionary shows how shallow your argument truly is. There's so many variables that can go into a tournament win. Is Jaedong not successful because he took 2nd at almost every tournament he went to? If we ignore his last win just for the sake of this argument, would you say someone like MVP was more successful even though Jaedong was a more solid competitor, and placed consistently higher? But no, you're right. Jinro and Thorzain are the model foreigners even though they've never been relevant at the highest level for even close to the time that Naniwa/Stephano/Scarlett have been.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not. I've played it.
In fact my buddy has 85% win rate TvP as a RANDOM player. And he only mechs!
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
People think terran is harder than the other races because the other races have had far more success in the foreigner scene. If terran was roughly as hard as the other races then we'd see roughly the same number of foreigner terrans in later stages of tournaments. But how often does that happen? Very rarely. It's not unusual (relatively speaking) to see foreign zergs or protosses advance in tournaments by beating Koreans but it almost never happens with terrans. You can go all the way back to mid 2011 or so and you'll notice this trend. I don't know who you're trying to kid if you think terran isn't harder than other races (at high levels).
Is it? I mean, didn't Sjow of all people recently have a fantastic run taking out Life?
This graph gives the winrate of foreigners vs Koreans with all races showing. It's pretty clear that all 3 lines are super close together and all 3 of the lines has been on top of the other two during HotS multiple occassions.
People always repeat 'there are no good foreign terrans' but if you look at the actual stats and tournament finishes it just isn't true.
11 of the top 40 foreigners are Terran, this is 27.5%, if it were compltely balanced this would be 33% Note that also exactly 11/40 of the top Koreans are Terran.
I'm a random player myself and I really do not notice that Terran is anything harder than the other two, all races are about as hard and there is no race for me where my winrate rockets above that of the other two. There are matchups where that is the case but not races. Which is something all randoms I've spoken to report, they don't feel they have a strongest race as much as that they have strong a matchups and, like me, they often are strong at both sides of the matchup. If you understand a matchup well from one side you typically also do from the other side.
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
Remember the days of 1/1/1 and reapers being good? Where were all the Terran whiners then? Also just because Terran has avilo -- who has a "FUCK PROTOSS" beanie, doesn't mean that there is vitriolic hate from people who play the other races... Avilo just gets a lot of attention, but I'm sure if say there was a Zerg player who always complained about balance and said spiteful and mean things all the time, he would get attention. You know if someone like that existed, I dont think you'd be saying that Terran players have the Proclivity to whine more than the other people.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not. I've played it.
In fact my buddy has 85% win rate TvP as a RANDOM player. And he only mechs!
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
People think terran is harder than the other races because the other races have had far more success in the foreigner scene. If terran was roughly as hard as the other races then we'd see roughly the same number of foreigner terrans in later stages of tournaments. But how often does that happen? Very rarely. It's not unusual (relatively speaking) to see foreign zergs or protosses advance in tournaments by beating Koreans but it almost never happens with terrans. You can go all the way back to mid 2011 or so and you'll notice this trend. I don't know who you're trying to kid if you think terran isn't harder than other races (at high levels).
Is it? I mean, didn't Sjow of all people recently have a fantastic run taking out Life?
This graph gives the winrate of foreigners vs Koreans with all races showing. It's pretty clear that all 3 lines are super close together and all 3 of the lines has been on top of the other two during HotS multiple occassions.
People always repeat 'there are no good foreign terrans' but if you look at the actual stats and tournament finishes it just isn't true.
11 of the top 40 foreigners are Terran, this is 27.5%, if it were compltely balanced this would be 33% Note that also exactly 11/40 of the top Koreans are Terran.
I'm a random player myself and I really do not notice that Terran is anything harder than the other two, all races are about as hard and there is no race for me where my winrate rockets above that of the other two. There are matchups where that is the case but not races. Which is something all randoms I've spoken to report, they don't feel they have a strongest race as much as that they have strong a matchups and, like me, they often are strong at both sides of the matchup. If you understand a matchup well from one side you typically also do from the other side.
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
From your first link, in players results table i clock link to next to Happy and counted his results going from newest When i reached 29 losses like in table he had 20 wins not 27. Are there any rules which games are counted?
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
Remember the days of 1/1/1 and reapers being good? Where were all the Terran whiners then? Also just because Terran has avilo -- who has a "FUCK PROTOSS" beanie, doesn't mean that there is vitriolic hate from people who play the other races... Avilo just gets a lot of attention, but I'm sure if say there was a Zerg player who always complained about balance and said spiteful and mean things all the time, he would get attention. You know if someone like that existed, I dont think you'd be saying that Terran players have the Proclivity to whine more than the other people.
People need to stop dismissing foreigners. I watched Scarlett's stream and her mechanic is one of the best I have seen even among Korean Zergs. There are good foreigner Terrans: Happy, Lucifron, Major, Kas, Dayshi etc. Just because they don't have great results yet doesn't mean they can't.
Balance does play a role but ultimately it is will, intelligence and hard work that produces good players.
To drive the point home let's look at same race match-up winrates against foreigners. Consider this hypothesis: if a race has low skill cap, then korean vs. foreigner in same race match-up would be close to 50%. Obviously imbalance is not to blame in same race match-up so we can eliminate that from our equation.
The best KR Terran beats foreigner Terrans as often as the best KR P/Z beats the best foreigner P/Z. Outliers like Scarlett who are able to compete with the best KR P/T can also compete with the best Korean Z.(Scarlett 50% win ratio vs. KR top Zergs including JD and life. Aligulac)
I hope people would stop pretending foreigner Z/P got unfair advantage and give well performing foreigners their due respect.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Ok I agree with that. Didn't read the entire conversation. But it doesn't mean Protoss pros couldn't do the same thing with other races either.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
People didn't lose to DT drops in BW? Ask Artosis.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
People didn't lose to DT drops in BW? Ask Artosis.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
Things like that might have happened back in BW too. We've just never noticed because we've seen less matches of the players in general. I wonder why Desrow isn't already a GSL champion...
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
APM isn't the way those players are similar. I don't know Avilos apm. Whining about Protoss and balance is what makes those two similar. I also wouldn't believe Idra and his insights into play Protoss. The APM reference was really to point out the Sjow could focus on improving himself, since there is clearly room to up his speed.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
APM isn't the way those players are similar. I don't know Avilos apm. Whining about Protoss and balance is what makes those two similar. I also wouldn't believe Idra and his insights into play Protoss. The APM reference was really to point out the Sjow could focus on improving himself, since there is clearly room to up his speed.
Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem?
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
APM isn't the way those players are similar. I don't know Avilos apm. Whining about Protoss and balance is what makes those two similar. I also wouldn't believe Idra and his insights into play Protoss. The APM reference was really to point out the Sjow could focus on improving himself, since there is clearly room to up his speed.
When you're slow, you're slow, I can't change it but by playing the game, and don't tell me SjoW don't play sc2. You can't improve your APM magically out of nowhere, you just need to play the game, and still you won't increase much, it will never double from the start.
On December 13 2013 22:50 Necosarius wrote: THE SJOW MUST GO ON~~~!!!
We really need to be able to choose which matchups we want to play. Playing TvZ, ZvP, PvT would be a dream.
This could work on ladder, but would increase queue time finding suitable opponents based on their matchups/yours. In tournaments, never. You would have players unable to play matchups against each other.
TvT>>>>PvP and ZvZ, main reason I have remained terran pretty much since I bought the game. Interresting he thought TvP was so bad he traded away the awesommeness of TvT for it, and Im glad he came back to his senses!
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
I don't understand that logic?
First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).
Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.
You are confused with about my statement. Both low AMP and not using camera hot keys are undeniably bad habits and any pro player should try and break. Instead of breaking these bad habits, SjoW complains that protoss is the ez pz race and went on his 13 day adventure to reach top 50 GM. When he didn't make it and became frustrated, he again blamed another aspect of the game, rather than look to what he could have done to do better.
Do you see the cycle? Do you know what Jeadong told Xenocider when the young terran was having trouble with protoss, "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could." And then a few weeks later Xeno won 10K in Korea.
Friends don't let friends whine about imbalance, because it just makes them crappier players.
Do you have the source of this JD's quote? I find it awesome, but I wonder if he really said that .
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
APM isn't the way those players are similar. I don't know Avilos apm. Whining about Protoss and balance is what makes those two similar. I also wouldn't believe Idra and his insights into play Protoss. The APM reference was really to point out the Sjow could focus on improving himself, since there is clearly room to up his speed.
When you're slow, you're slow, I can't change it but by playing the game, and don't tell me SjoW don't play sc2. You can't improve your APM magically out of nowhere, you just need to play the game, and still you won't increase much, it will never double from the start.
Well I did, when I first played sc2 ( I was already playing wc3) I had 90 APM, now I have 200.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
I don't understand that logic?
First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).
Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.
You are confused with about my statement. Both low AMP and not using camera hot keys are undeniably bad habits and any pro player should try and break. Instead of breaking these bad habits, SjoW complains that protoss is the ez pz race and went on his 13 day adventure to reach top 50 GM. When he didn't make it and became frustrated, he again blamed another aspect of the game, rather than look to what he could have done to do better.
Do you see the cycle? Do you know what Jeadong told Xenocider when the young terran was having trouble with protoss, "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could." And then a few weeks later Xeno won 10K in Korea.
Friends don't let friends whine about imbalance, because it just makes them crappier players.
Do you have the source of this JD's quote? I find it awesome, but I wonder if he really said that .
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
APM isn't the way those players are similar. I don't know Avilos apm. Whining about Protoss and balance is what makes those two similar. I also wouldn't believe Idra and his insights into play Protoss. The APM reference was really to point out the Sjow could focus on improving himself, since there is clearly room to up his speed.
When you're slow, you're slow, I can't change it but by playing the game, and don't tell me SjoW don't play sc2. You can't improve your APM magically out of nowhere, you just need to play the game, and still you won't increase much, it will never double from the start.
Well I did, when I first played sc2 ( I was already playing wc3) I had 90 APM, now I have 200.
It was made on Inside the Game when Xeno was talking about winning the 10K at the tournament(or the week before). He had some one and one time with The Dong to talk about competing and The Dong went all Obi Wan on him. I can't remember the exact episode, but it was within the last 3 months.
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
Lol, terran was shit for the 8 last month in WoL, we just don't want that again in HotS. I don't mind paying more for a good laptop, but if the other have a better one with a lesser price, then there is a problem. (but without offense, your analogy was really bad).
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
Lol, terran was shit for the 8 last month in WoL, we just don't want that again in HotS.
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
Lol, terran was shit for the 8 last month in WoL, we just don't want that again in HotS.
who's talking about WoL last 8 months?
Your analogy is terrible and doesn't explain anything.
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
Lol, terran was shit for the 8 last month in WoL, we just don't want that again in HotS.
who's talking about WoL last 8 months?
So your analogy was really really bad because I saw it like it, saying terran picked terran because it was easy and OP then terran got nerfed and (for you, balanced) and now they are pissed because of it. That's totally a biased pov.
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
Lol, terran was shit for the 8 last month in WoL, we just don't want that again in HotS.
who's talking about WoL last 8 months?
So your analogy was really really bad because I saw it like it, saying terran picked terran because it was easy and OP then terran got nerfed and (for you, balanced) and now they are pissed because of it. That's totally a biased pov.
Out of all people in this thread, I actually think you're the most biased person. The pot calling the kettle black.
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
Lol, terran was shit for the 8 last month in WoL, we just don't want that again in HotS.
who's talking about WoL last 8 months?
So your analogy was really really bad because I saw it like it, saying terran picked terran because it was easy and OP then terran got nerfed and (for you, balanced) and now they are pissed because of it. That's totally a biased pov.
Out of all people in this thread, I actually think you're the most biased person. The pot calling the kettle black.
Non-sense, I'm just realistic. I'm not the one saying "olol ppl chose t cuz it waz ez & now itz harder lolz" and then playing the game of "I'll throw whatever you say back at you because I don't have a single argument and I make shitty anology".
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
Lol, terran was shit for the 8 last month in WoL, we just don't want that again in HotS.
who's talking about WoL last 8 months?
So your analogy was really really bad because I saw it like it, saying terran picked terran because it was easy and OP then terran got nerfed and (for you, balanced) and now they are pissed because of it. That's totally a biased pov.
Out of all people in this thread, I actually think you're the most biased person. The pot calling the kettle black.
Non-sense, I'm just realistic. I'm not the one saying "olol ppl chose t cuz it waz ez & now itz harder lolz" and then playing the game of "I'll throw whatever you say back at you because I don't have a single argument and I make shitty anology".
Oh please, 'camera hotkeys worthless', 'terran UP', ... I'm not even the person you think you're responding to. You pay that much attention to what you read.
On December 14 2013 23:42 Lazzi wrote: I still think the most important thing said in this thread is JD's quote : "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could."
Words of wisdom
Yeah, ZvP was JD's worst matchup. Lots of Zergs constantly bitch about how broken ZvP is. JD didn't complain, he just took the time to figure out what he needed to do, and suddenly he just started crushing every Protoss.
There's a lesson in there somewhere, if people bother to learn it...
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
I don't understand that logic?
First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).
Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.
You are confused with about my statement. Both low AMP and not using camera hot keys are undeniably bad habits and any pro player should try and break. Instead of breaking these bad habits, SjoW complains that protoss is the ez pz race and went on his 13 day adventure to reach top 50 GM. When he didn't make it and became frustrated, he again blamed another aspect of the game, rather than look to what he could have done to do better.
Do you see the cycle? Do you know what Jeadong told Xenocider when the young terran was having trouble with protoss, "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could." And then a few weeks later Xeno won 10K in Korea.
Friends don't let friends whine about imbalance, because it just makes them crappier players.
Do you have the source of this JD's quote? I find it awesome, but I wonder if he really said that .
On December 14 2013 21:32 Faust852 wrote:
On December 14 2013 21:26 Plansix wrote:
On December 14 2013 19:17 j00pdaw00p wrote:
On December 13 2013 23:16 Plansix wrote:
On December 13 2013 23:10 RaZorwire wrote:
On December 13 2013 22:58 Plansix wrote:
On December 13 2013 22:16 Faust852 wrote:
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
APM isn't the way those players are similar. I don't know Avilos apm. Whining about Protoss and balance is what makes those two similar. I also wouldn't believe Idra and his insights into play Protoss. The APM reference was really to point out the Sjow could focus on improving himself, since there is clearly room to up his speed.
When you're slow, you're slow, I can't change it but by playing the game, and don't tell me SjoW don't play sc2. You can't improve your APM magically out of nowhere, you just need to play the game, and still you won't increase much, it will never double from the start.
Well I did, when I first played sc2 ( I was already playing wc3) I had 90 APM, now I have 200.
It was made on Inside the Game when Xeno was talking about winning the 10K at the tournament(or the week before). He had some one and one time with The Dong to talk about competing and The Dong went all Obi Wan on him. I can't remember the exact episode, but it was within the last 3 months.
That is beyond awesome. AFK for a few hours to find this clip and subsequently masturbate furiously.
On December 14 2013 03:59 ( bush wrote: Play terran and double your opponent's skill in order to win, or play protoss and flip coins to win your PvPs (which are, most of the time, more than 50% of the matches you will get).
Tough decision to make.
I really don't understand why Terrans think their race is so much harder to play than the others.
It's not.
I've played it.
Balance in all matchups at the professional level (where professionals like SJOW are) is very close to 50%. PvT is not imba. TvP is not imba. Nothing is imba. Some players work hard to get better and others work less hard then complain about it.
If you blame the game, it never your fault when you lose. If you keep claiming your race is harder, then you can claim you would be so much better if you paired another race. You can believe yourself to be better and you don't even need to do anything.
It like being a coffee snob, drinking super bitter "craft" coffee and claiming everyone else is a coffee scrub because they haven't taken the time to appreciate your shitty coffee.
Jesus, Plansix, you're awfully harsh on Sjow in this thread. You're usually one of the most calm and reasonable commenters in balance-related threads.
I don't really have anything against SjoW, its is mostly against the very vocal minor of terran players that like to whine about balance at every chance. That specific comment is targeted at all balance whine, not just SjoW's in particular. Fustrated or otherwise, we have terran players in this thread claiming that PvP was out of their control(when they switched) or that map hotkeys are useless. I mostly have a problem with the mentality of "I couldn't possibly be a fault, it is the game," coming from a player that plays at 70 apm and doesn't use map hot keys.
I don't understand that logic?
First of I assume your referring to Sjow's low APM. However, first of all its a big exaggeration as he has 100+ APM (still very slow).
Now, if you aren't talking about Sjow, then why are your talking about not using camera hotkeys and low APM. Many great terran players have higher apm and use camra hotkeys so who are you actually talking about here? Are you adressing those people who believe Sjow deserves a higher rank? That would seem a bit weird as I haven't seen anyone say that.
You are confused with about my statement. Both low AMP and not using camera hot keys are undeniably bad habits and any pro player should try and break. Instead of breaking these bad habits, SjoW complains that protoss is the ez pz race and went on his 13 day adventure to reach top 50 GM. When he didn't make it and became frustrated, he again blamed another aspect of the game, rather than look to what he could have done to do better.
Do you see the cycle? Do you know what Jeadong told Xenocider when the young terran was having trouble with protoss, "Your thoughts of imbalance do more damage than any imbalance ever could." And then a few weeks later Xeno won 10K in Korea.
Friends don't let friends whine about imbalance, because it just makes them crappier players.
Do you have the source of this JD's quote? I find it awesome, but I wonder if he really said that .
On December 14 2013 21:32 Faust852 wrote:
On December 14 2013 21:26 Plansix wrote:
On December 14 2013 19:17 j00pdaw00p wrote:
On December 13 2013 23:16 Plansix wrote:
On December 13 2013 23:10 RaZorwire wrote:
On December 13 2013 22:58 Plansix wrote:
On December 13 2013 22:16 Faust852 wrote: [quote] I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
APM isn't the way those players are similar. I don't know Avilos apm. Whining about Protoss and balance is what makes those two similar. I also wouldn't believe Idra and his insights into play Protoss. The APM reference was really to point out the Sjow could focus on improving himself, since there is clearly room to up his speed.
When you're slow, you're slow, I can't change it but by playing the game, and don't tell me SjoW don't play sc2. You can't improve your APM magically out of nowhere, you just need to play the game, and still you won't increase much, it will never double from the start.
Well I did, when I first played sc2 ( I was already playing wc3) I had 90 APM, now I have 200.
It was made on Inside the Game when Xeno was talking about winning the 10K at the tournament(or the week before). He had some one and one time with The Dong to talk about competing and The Dong went all Obi Wan on him. I can't remember the exact episode, but it was within the last 3 months.
That is beyond awesome. AFK for a few hours to find this clip and subsequently masturbate furiously.
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
Lol, terran was shit for the 8 last month in WoL, we just don't want that again in HotS.
who's talking about WoL last 8 months?
So your analogy was really really bad because I saw it like it, saying terran picked terran because it was easy and OP then terran got nerfed and (for you, balanced) and now they are pissed because of it. That's totally a biased pov.
Out of all people in this thread, I actually think you're the most biased person. The pot calling the kettle black.
Non-sense, I'm just realistic. I'm not the one saying "olol ppl chose t cuz it waz ez & now itz harder lolz" and then playing the game of "I'll throw whatever you say back at you because I don't have a single argument and I make shitty anology".
Oh please, 'camera hotkeys worthless', 'terran UP', ... I'm not even the person you think you're responding to. You pay that much attention to what you read.
C'mon, I don't see how saying that camera hotkey doesn't matter much to reach GM is a biased opinion. Plus I dare you to find a single post where I said terran UP without a legit argumentation.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
APM isn't the way those players are similar. I don't know Avilos apm. Whining about Protoss and balance is what makes those two similar. I also wouldn't believe Idra and his insights into play Protoss. The APM reference was really to point out the Sjow could focus on improving himself, since there is clearly room to up his speed.
When you're slow, you're slow, I can't change it but by playing the game, and don't tell me SjoW don't play sc2. You can't improve your APM magically out of nowhere, you just need to play the game, and still you won't increase much, it will never double from the start.
Simply not true unless I'm one of the exceptions to the rule ( possibility since there are exceptions out there for anything )
I went from like 20 apm tops in 2011 at the very bottom of bronze and being terrible at just trying to click on units, to touching 600 apm in spurts on dargleins multitasking trainer
I regulary touch 400 apm now and I don't ladder anymore or play this game seriously anymore ( i'm sick at the moment so I'm playing atm )
I'd say I average around 90-100 when I'm warmed up, and that's just with protoss. When I was playing serious as a masters terran I was maintaining 150
so from 20 to 150. I didn't just double it, I 7 times'd it basically.
I totally understand where SjoW is coming from because I have a cycle of race switching because of protoss.
TvP getting too frustrating? Switch to Protoss. PvP too much of a coin flip and too prevalent? Switch to Zerg. ZvP......nope, never again. Switch back to Terran.
There are a couple of other factors like when Nony is actively streaming it makes me want to play protoss or when I watch a good TvZ/ZvT I want to play T or Z. In general though, I like the TvZ/ZvT Bio vs Lair style of play so much that it makes me despise losing to a brute force push from Protoss and then I neglect the matchup which makes it even more frustrating.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
APM isn't the way those players are similar. I don't know Avilos apm. Whining about Protoss and balance is what makes those two similar. I also wouldn't believe Idra and his insights into play Protoss. The APM reference was really to point out the Sjow could focus on improving himself, since there is clearly room to up his speed.
When you're slow, you're slow, I can't change it but by playing the game, and don't tell me SjoW don't play sc2. You can't improve your APM magically out of nowhere, you just need to play the game, and still you won't increase much, it will never double from the start.
Simply not true unless I'm one of the exceptions to the rule ( possibility since there are exceptions out there for anything )
I went from like 20 apm tops in 2011 at the very bottom of bronze and being terrible at just trying to click on units, to touching 600 apm in spurts on dargleins multitasking trainer
I regulary touch 400 apm now and I don't ladder anymore or play this game seriously anymore ( i'm sick at the moment so I'm playing atm )
I'd say I average around 90-100 when I'm warmed up, and that's just with protoss. When I was playing serious as a masters terran I was maintaining 150
so from 20 to 150. I didn't just double it, I 7 times'd it basically.
When I said that, it's obviously once you reach i good enough knowledge of the game, I mean once you are in diamond, you know your hotkeys so you don't need to click, you have your 3 to 6 control group so you don't need to click on your production facilities. SjoW is in the top grand master terran, there aren't a lot of thing he can learn from here, like as it was said earlier, camera location hotkey, but that's pretty much it. Say I have 130 avg. APM right now. I was diamond 2y ago and I had 120 avg APM back then. There isn't that much I can do to improve my apm more, i'm slow and I know it, I try to be faster but I can't help, if I go too fast it hurts my hand after one game. It's the same for everyone, once they reach a good enough level, they won't magically double their APM.
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
Lol, terran was shit for the 8 last month in WoL, we just don't want that again in HotS.
who's talking about WoL last 8 months?
So your analogy was really really bad because I saw it like it, saying terran picked terran because it was easy and OP then terran got nerfed and (for you, balanced) and now they are pissed because of it. That's totally a biased pov.
Out of all people in this thread, I actually think you're the most biased person. The pot calling the kettle black.
Non-sense, I'm just realistic. I'm not the one saying "olol ppl chose t cuz it waz ez & now itz harder lolz" and then playing the game of "I'll throw whatever you say back at you because I don't have a single argument and I make shitty anology".
Oh please, 'camera hotkeys worthless', 'terran UP', ... I'm not even the person you think you're responding to. You pay that much attention to what you read.
C'mon, I don't see how saying that camera hotkey doesn't matter much to reach GM is a biased opinion. Plus I dare you to find a single post where I said terran UP without a legit argumentation.
Legit argumentation? In the mind of the biased, the argumentation is always legit. This is not gonna work out I'm afraid.
What I do notice though is that Terrans have this massive proclivity to whine far more than the other races. Obviously not all Terrans but man there are some TErrans that can whine.
I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
Lol, terran was shit for the 8 last month in WoL, we just don't want that again in HotS.
who's talking about WoL last 8 months?
So your analogy was really really bad because I saw it like it, saying terran picked terran because it was easy and OP then terran got nerfed and (for you, balanced) and now they are pissed because of it. That's totally a biased pov.
Out of all people in this thread, I actually think you're the most biased person. The pot calling the kettle black.
Non-sense, I'm just realistic. I'm not the one saying "olol ppl chose t cuz it waz ez & now itz harder lolz" and then playing the game of "I'll throw whatever you say back at you because I don't have a single argument and I make shitty anology".
Oh please, 'camera hotkeys worthless', 'terran UP', ... I'm not even the person you think you're responding to. You pay that much attention to what you read.
C'mon, I don't see how saying that camera hotkey doesn't matter much to reach GM is a biased opinion. Plus I dare you to find a single post where I said terran UP without a legit argumentation.
Legit argumentation? In the mind of the biased, the argumentation is always legit. This is not gonna work out I'm afraid.
Aaand you're still not able to quote me. Nice try.
On December 14 2013 22:31 Cheerio wrote: [quote] I believe there is an explanation. When SC2 kicked in terran was imba. Many people picked it because of it, some of them understood it was because of the race strength, but some people reasoned they just liked it more, yeah it's easier to "like" a race when you are winning a lot. Later terran got the most nerfs. Consider a situation. You are about to buy a laptop. You do your research of the market well, read the reports and feedbacks, test some models yourself, and make a perfect choice. You feel you've been rewarded for you efforts and for being smart. You make your purchase and have some good time admiring it. But then the company comes in and says "ok, there has been a mistake. Your laptop was underpriced and you need to either pay extra or have it exchanged for a worse model". I would be pissed as hell. And those terrans, who picked the race because they felt it was the strongest at the moment, surely have been after every nerf.
Lol, terran was shit for the 8 last month in WoL, we just don't want that again in HotS.
who's talking about WoL last 8 months?
So your analogy was really really bad because I saw it like it, saying terran picked terran because it was easy and OP then terran got nerfed and (for you, balanced) and now they are pissed because of it. That's totally a biased pov.
Out of all people in this thread, I actually think you're the most biased person. The pot calling the kettle black.
Non-sense, I'm just realistic. I'm not the one saying "olol ppl chose t cuz it waz ez & now itz harder lolz" and then playing the game of "I'll throw whatever you say back at you because I don't have a single argument and I make shitty anology".
Oh please, 'camera hotkeys worthless', 'terran UP', ... I'm not even the person you think you're responding to. You pay that much attention to what you read.
C'mon, I don't see how saying that camera hotkey doesn't matter much to reach GM is a biased opinion. Plus I dare you to find a single post where I said terran UP without a legit argumentation.
Legit argumentation? In the mind of the biased, the argumentation is always legit. This is not gonna work out I'm afraid.
Aaand you're still not able to quote me. Nice try.
Keep missing the point son, one day you'll get there.
You're such an annoying sophist, you can't prove your point but by some random sentences without logic. Anyway, since you can't answer me properly, I concider you in fault and just trolling. I'll stop arguing with you.
On December 14 2013 06:20 Hider wrote: Quoting Dear
There’s a lot of variability in the mirror matchup, and after the most recent patch I don’t feel like I understand the match-up at all.
One could interpret variability as coinflipness.
Or the patch changed the match up so much he needs to relearn it.
You just like to continuously argue to try and save face, atleast that's the image I'm getting from you. When people balance whine sometimes there's credence to it. You didn't have to relearn the whole match up to have see that hellbats were imbalanced. Oracles are too easy to control and offer way too much reward for such little risk. They made it easier to control with increased speed and acceleration, hence why it's currently imbalanced.
dont...argue...with...plansix.
Yes, the always correct god of TL, speaking against him is futile.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
I'm 5-4 vs Bomber on ladder including Macro wins. Don't be delusional about balance.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
I'm 5-4 vs Bomber on ladder including Macro wins. Don't be delusional about balance.
I think his point was that there are so many things protoss can do to kill you instantly, while being quite safe themselves - therefore allowing inferior players (and i would rate you inferior to Bomber - no offense) to have an edge over players that they would never be able to defeat if it weren't for this particular matchup.
On December 13 2013 23:28 Plansix wrote: Also, last time I checked he still doesn't use map hot keys. I don't know how he expects to do well against any high level player that uses them.
He obviously doesn't need them as Protoss
Oh clearly the highest level Protoss don't need map hot keys or control groups. Just draw a big box and Amove to glory. Then tab and storm, storm, storm! Ez pz.
Lol, camera control are useless, I don't know a single player that use them beside putting Main 2nd and 3rd. They spam it for 5 min then never use them after that.
On December 13 2013 21:16 ETisME wrote: lol switched because P too imba in PvT, switched back because PvP is too frustrating
That's not strange at all, expected this because me and a friend of mine went through the exact same thing. We're top masters and switched to Protoss for a while because being Terran is just too depressing. Both our PvT winrates were ridiculously high, beating players much stronger than our own Terran. PvZ was harder than I thought, but it can be interesting so that's fine. However, playing the retardfest that is PvP all day can just break a person. The numbers were around 90 PvP's out of 190 games and although my winrate was even positive, that matchup just kills your entire joy in life.
Oddly enough, from my limited PvP experience I enjoy it because it's such a micro battle. I may be behind the times and still use 4 gate because well I can't say I know many PvP builds (Terran player), but I don't mind it. I think my PvT would benefit a lot in the same way my TvP would if I was good with casters (ghosts, sentries, templar). PvZ I don't have much experience with, but I'd imagine it being interesting. But I can totally see this being the case. I think zerg's the easiest to race switch to. One hotkey, all your hatches. Just cycle through queens, and get used to it. There's timings, but you don't really have many buildings. Just keep on top of injects and you'll go pretty far. There's a lot more to zerg, but the mechanics are the easiest I think.
On December 14 2013 03:26 Sabu113 wrote: Man I feel like sjow missed out on a fantastic opportunity. I would watch someting ala mr bitter's show with 3-5 episodes of Naniwa coaching/cursing sjow!
In the final episode Naniwa and Sjow go on a murderous rampage as they try to kill every Zerg in Europe and accidently burn down an Ikea. Morrow gets blamed and goes to jail.
Bwhaha. Sold. Didn't know Sjow hated Zergs like Nani did.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
I'm 5-4 vs Bomber on ladder including Macro wins. Don't be delusional about balance.
I think the fact that you can 5-4 Bomber is a problem in itself. I don't want to bash you or anything but come on, you don't even are a top16 GM in NA and Bomber is easily top5 terran world. I watched Bomber streaming against you and most of the time what you call "macro wins" were shitty 2/3 bases timings with a ridiculous opening like blink or DT. grabbing in 1 win, why not, but wining a Bo9 against him is ridiculous.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
I'm 5-4 vs Bomber on ladder including Macro wins. Don't be delusional about balance.
This. Definite proof of imbalance. End of discussion.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
I'm 5-4 vs Bomber on ladder including Macro wins. Don't be delusional about balance.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
I'm 5-4 vs Bomber on ladder including Macro wins. Don't be delusional about balance.
I don't think this statement is going to help your argument like you probably thought it would.
As someone who has been Master league with all 3 races before, the grass always seems greener on the other side no matter what race you are playing. I think no matter what race you decide to play you will end up at about the skill you are currently with your main race over time.
That being said, there are certain situations, on certain maps, that are imbalanced in certain matchups. But overall, each race has their imbalances / advantages / situations to capitalize on. You don't realize that until you dive in and start playing another race.
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
I'm 5-4 vs Bomber on ladder including Macro wins. Don't be delusional about balance.
Finally something our fellow Protoss can't ignore. Thank you for your contribution to this thread, desrow.
Terran players are cute. Bomber has the same TLPD stats against zerg as he does toss. He's a 50% player outside of t v s t. All you have to do is look at the top two terrans, innovation and taeja, who are at 77% and 73% against toss, to realize it's possible to own toss and that Bomber can play the mu A LOT better than he currently is.
Is there no irony/humility in whining about playing against protoss and then switching to protoss and still crying about how hard it is to play against protoss? If p vs p is a coin flip. I'm using a very one sided coin... If you struggle in a mirror mu, your problem obviously has nothing to do with imbalances.
On December 15 2013 20:02 playa wrote: Terran players are cute. Bomber has the same TLPD stats against zerg as he does toss. He's a 50% player outside of t v s t. All you have to do is look at the top two terrans, innovation and taeja, who are at 77% and 73% against toss, to realize it's possible to own toss and that Bomber can play the mu A LOT better than he currently is.
Is there no irony/humility in whining about playing against protoss and then switching to protoss and still crying about how hard it is to play against protoss? If p vs p is a coin flip. I'm using a very one sided coin... If you struggle in a mirror mu, your problem obviously has nothing to do with imbalances.
C'mon, it's Bomber vs Desrow, not Bomber vs Dear or Parting lmao. you can't be that blind to say that it is normal for Desrow to beat Bomber 5-4. btw : All 61.42% (484/788) 1839 ± 105 (#17) TvP 63.77% (169/265) 1844 ± 153 (#11) TvT 61.28% (144/235) 1869 ± 191 (#20) TvZ 59.38% (171/288) 1804 ± 149 (#17)
On December 13 2013 22:10 synd wrote: wow, toss such ez, like really ez money. 13 days later = switching back to Terran. lel
Sup, SjoW. Please trash talk some more the successful toss players who practice more than you.
I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
I'm 5-4 vs Bomber on ladder including Macro wins. Don't be delusional about balance.
Finally something our fellow Protoss can't ignore. Thank you for your contribution to this thread, desrow.
On December 13 2013 22:16 Faust852 wrote: [quote] I think you are really stupid because you can't read the OP.
People read the OP, but we don't believe him. He just figured out that Protoss wasn't as ez pz as he thought in all the match ups and switched back.
Because making up your own truth about someone on the internet is always better than listening to the person in question. TL.net in a nutshell.
It's not true, it's opinion. My opinion is Sjow got to the point where he would have to learn how to play Protoss for real and decided to back out. He didn't reach his goal and saw that it was a lot harder them he thought it was going to be. I won't believe Avilo either when he comes out with his excuse either.
Funny because avilo is already top 50 master with toss
You do know that "top 50 master" is nothing for a higher GM player right? I'm just a masters player but had no problem at all getting back to "top 50 masters" when I tried off-racing for a while.
My point is that Plansix is wrong - just because sjow couldn't do it doesn't mean others can't. He's using a 70-apm player as a measuring stick, which is laughable.
Edit: Just 2 minutes after typing this, I watched Bomber lose to a DT rush executed by desrow on Bomber's stream. That made me giggle. You know something's wrong with the game when something like that is possible. You would never see a top-tier Korean lose to a non-pro (esp. a foreigner) with BW. Pure laffs.
I'm 5-4 vs Bomber on ladder including Macro wins. Don't be delusional about balance.
Finally something our fellow Protoss can't ignore. Thank you for your contribution to this thread, desrow.
On December 15 2013 20:02 playa wrote: Terran players are cute. Bomber has the same TLPD stats against zerg as he does toss. He's a 50% player outside of t v s t. All you have to do is look at the top two terrans, innovation and taeja, who are at 77% and 73% against toss, to realize it's possible to own toss and that Bomber can play the mu A LOT better than he currently is.
Is there no irony/humility in whining about playing against protoss and then switching to protoss and still crying about how hard it is to play against protoss? If p vs p is a coin flip. I'm using a very one sided coin... If you struggle in a mirror mu, your problem obviously has nothing to do with imbalances.
C'mon, it's Bomber vs Desrow, not Bomber vs Dear or Parting lmao. you can't be that blind to say that it is normal for Desrow to beat Bomber 5-4. btw : All 61.42% (484/788) 1839 ± 105 (#17) TvP 63.77% (169/265) 1844 ± 153 (#11) TvT 61.28% (144/235) 1869 ± 191 (#20) TvZ 59.38% (171/288) 1804 ± 149 (#17)
These are Bomber stats, it's not 50%.
On the other hand Desrow plays on EU from USA whereas Bomber plays on EU from Korea, it makes a big difference in my opinion.
On December 15 2013 20:02 playa wrote: Terran players are cute. Bomber has the same TLPD stats against zerg as he does toss. He's a 50% player outside of t v s t. All you have to do is look at the top two terrans, innovation and taeja, who are at 77% and 73% against toss, to realize it's possible to own toss and that Bomber can play the mu A LOT better than he currently is.
Is there no irony/humility in whining about playing against protoss and then switching to protoss and still crying about how hard it is to play against protoss? If p vs p is a coin flip. I'm using a very one sided coin... If you struggle in a mirror mu, your problem obviously has nothing to do with imbalances.
C'mon, it's Bomber vs Desrow, not Bomber vs Dear or Parting lmao. you can't be that blind to say that it is normal for Desrow to beat Bomber 5-4. btw : All 61.42% (484/788) 1839 ± 105 (#17) TvP 63.77% (169/265) 1844 ± 153 (#11) TvT 61.28% (144/235) 1869 ± 191 (#20) TvZ 59.38% (171/288) 1804 ± 149 (#17)
These are Bomber stats, it's not 50%.
On the other hand Desrow plays on EU from USA whereas Bomber plays on EU from Korea, it makes a big difference in my opinion.
It's NA => NA and KR => NA, not much lag from Bomber.
On December 15 2013 20:02 playa wrote: Terran players are cute. Bomber has the same TLPD stats against zerg as he does toss. He's a 50% player outside of t v s t. All you have to do is look at the top two terrans, innovation and taeja, who are at 77% and 73% against toss, to realize it's possible to own toss and that Bomber can play the mu A LOT better than he currently is.
Is there no irony/humility in whining about playing against protoss and then switching to protoss and still crying about how hard it is to play against protoss? If p vs p is a coin flip. I'm using a very one sided coin... If you struggle in a mirror mu, your problem obviously has nothing to do with imbalances.
C'mon, it's Bomber vs Desrow, not Bomber vs Dear or Parting lmao. you can't be that blind to say that it is normal for Desrow to beat Bomber 5-4. btw : All 61.42% (484/788) 1839 ± 105 (#17) TvP 63.77% (169/265) 1844 ± 153 (#11) TvT 61.28% (144/235) 1869 ± 191 (#20) TvZ 59.38% (171/288) 1804 ± 149 (#17)
These are Bomber stats, it's not 50%.
I used his TLPD stats for HotS. The guy plays coin flippy t vs p. His master plan, whether behind or ahead is to pull all of his scvs and cross his fingers, when better terrans would simply capitalize on their advantages without having to resort to such silliness. When it comes to t vs p, I just can't think of many worse examples than someone that plays like Bomber does. Anyone that has templars has a chance against that guy.
On December 15 2013 20:02 playa wrote: Terran players are cute. Bomber has the same TLPD stats against zerg as he does toss. He's a 50% player outside of t v s t. All you have to do is look at the top two terrans, innovation and taeja, who are at 77% and 73% against toss, to realize it's possible to own toss and that Bomber can play the mu A LOT better than he currently is.
Is there no irony/humility in whining about playing against protoss and then switching to protoss and still crying about how hard it is to play against protoss? If p vs p is a coin flip. I'm using a very one sided coin... If you struggle in a mirror mu, your problem obviously has nothing to do with imbalances.
C'mon, it's Bomber vs Desrow, not Bomber vs Dear or Parting lmao. you can't be that blind to say that it is normal for Desrow to beat Bomber 5-4. btw : All 61.42% (484/788) 1839 ± 105 (#17) TvP 63.77% (169/265) 1844 ± 153 (#11) TvT 61.28% (144/235) 1869 ± 191 (#20) TvZ 59.38% (171/288) 1804 ± 149 (#17)
These are Bomber stats, it's not 50%.
I used his TLPD stats for HotS. The guy plays coin flippy t vs p. His master plan, whether behind or ahead is to pull all of his scvs and cross his fingers, when better terrans would simply capitalize on their advantages without having to resort to such silliness. When it comes to t vs p, I just can't think of many worse examples than someone that plays like Bomber does. Anyone that has templars has a chance against that guy.
Sad part is that he was probably best TvPer in WoL with Taeja and Polt.
On December 15 2013 20:02 playa wrote: Terran players are cute. Bomber has the same TLPD stats against zerg as he does toss. He's a 50% player outside of t v s t. All you have to do is look at the top two terrans, innovation and taeja, who are at 77% and 73% against toss, to realize it's possible to own toss and that Bomber can play the mu A LOT better than he currently is.
Is there no irony/humility in whining about playing against protoss and then switching to protoss and still crying about how hard it is to play against protoss? If p vs p is a coin flip. I'm using a very one sided coin... If you struggle in a mirror mu, your problem obviously has nothing to do with imbalances.
C'mon, it's Bomber vs Desrow, not Bomber vs Dear or Parting lmao. you can't be that blind to say that it is normal for Desrow to beat Bomber 5-4. btw : All 61.42% (484/788) 1839 ± 105 (#17) TvP 63.77% (169/265) 1844 ± 153 (#11) TvT 61.28% (144/235) 1869 ± 191 (#20) TvZ 59.38% (171/288) 1804 ± 149 (#17)
These are Bomber stats, it's not 50%.
On the other hand Desrow plays on EU from USA whereas Bomber plays on EU from Korea, it makes a big difference in my opinion.
It's NA => NA and KR => NA, not much lag from Bomber.
I am quite sure Desrow has been playing on EU for a while now, and I've seen some Bomber's streams where he plays on EU too.
On December 15 2013 20:02 playa wrote: Terran players are cute. Bomber has the same TLPD stats against zerg as he does toss. He's a 50% player outside of t v s t. All you have to do is look at the top two terrans, innovation and taeja, who are at 77% and 73% against toss, to realize it's possible to own toss and that Bomber can play the mu A LOT better than he currently is.
Is there no irony/humility in whining about playing against protoss and then switching to protoss and still crying about how hard it is to play against protoss? If p vs p is a coin flip. I'm using a very one sided coin... If you struggle in a mirror mu, your problem obviously has nothing to do with imbalances.
C'mon, it's Bomber vs Desrow, not Bomber vs Dear or Parting lmao. you can't be that blind to say that it is normal for Desrow to beat Bomber 5-4. btw : All 61.42% (484/788) 1839 ± 105 (#17) TvP 63.77% (169/265) 1844 ± 153 (#11) TvT 61.28% (144/235) 1869 ± 191 (#20) TvZ 59.38% (171/288) 1804 ± 149 (#17)
These are Bomber stats, it's not 50%.
On the other hand Desrow plays on EU from USA whereas Bomber plays on EU from Korea, it makes a big difference in my opinion.
It's NA => NA and KR => NA, not much lag from Bomber.
I am quite sure Desrow has been playing on EU for a while now, and I've seen some Bomber's streams where he plays on EU too.
On December 15 2013 20:02 playa wrote: Terran players are cute. Bomber has the same TLPD stats against zerg as he does toss. He's a 50% player outside of t v s t. All you have to do is look at the top two terrans, innovation and taeja, who are at 77% and 73% against toss, to realize it's possible to own toss and that Bomber can play the mu A LOT better than he currently is.
Is there no irony/humility in whining about playing against protoss and then switching to protoss and still crying about how hard it is to play against protoss? If p vs p is a coin flip. I'm using a very one sided coin... If you struggle in a mirror mu, your problem obviously has nothing to do with imbalances.
C'mon, it's Bomber vs Desrow, not Bomber vs Dear or Parting lmao. you can't be that blind to say that it is normal for Desrow to beat Bomber 5-4. btw : All 61.42% (484/788) 1839 ± 105 (#17) TvP 63.77% (169/265) 1844 ± 153 (#11) TvT 61.28% (144/235) 1869 ± 191 (#20) TvZ 59.38% (171/288) 1804 ± 149 (#17)
These are Bomber stats, it's not 50%.
On the other hand Desrow plays on EU from USA whereas Bomber plays on EU from Korea, it makes a big difference in my opinion.
It's NA => NA and KR => NA, not much lag from Bomber.
I am quite sure Desrow has been playing on EU for a while now, and I've seen some Bomber's streams where he plays on EU too.
On December 15 2013 21:07 Chaggi wrote: I think desRow would have no chance of winning (no offense) in a tournament setting vs Bomber, but this really shows how weird ladder can be.
no it shows how retarded protoss is. desrow is just some random on ladder, not even top 16 GM. its like if a random foreigner beat fantasy in BW, such a thing would never happen, and it shouldnt.
edit: i just saw bomber lose to proxy skillray on his stream against some random on NA ladder...he scouted it and didnt make any mistakes and still lost...pure jokes.
Oh please, do not compare this to a bo9. You think bomber cares how his standing on ladder vs desrow is? Ladder is a training ground. Something like that would be really unlikely to happen in a tournament setting. I also think many people underestimate desrow, if I'm not mistaken he's currently not on a team, so he probably can't afford to go to tourney's, this means ladder is his best chance to show his skill and get picked up by a team. Having a record of 5-4 vs bomber on ladder thus means a lot to him. So the 'best of 9' is one where bomber has nothing to lose and desrow has much to gain. It is not that significant if you put it like this.
That being said, oracle dps needs a fat nerf. People aren't using the oracle as a supporting unit because its dps vs workers is ridiculous.
On December 15 2013 21:07 Chaggi wrote: I think desRow would have no chance of winning (no offense) in a tournament setting vs Bomber, but this really shows how weird ladder can be.
no it shows how retarded protoss is. desrow is just some random on ladder, not even top 16 GM. its like if a random foreigner beat fantasy in BW, such a thing would never happen, and it shouldnt.
edit: i just saw bomber lose to proxy skillray on his stream against some random on NA ladder...he scouted it and didnt make any mistakes and still lost...pure jokes.
We have no idea how seriously Bomber is really playing on ladder. Desrow most likely is playing with every trick that he has cause how often does he have a chance to play a Terran of the caliber of Bomber? SC2 is also far less mechanically driven and faster than BW, which means small mistakes can snowball and you can rarely get an advantage back. I love Bomber as much as the next and personally believe that if the game was "better", desrow should have no chance against Bomber. But trying to compare this is pretty stupid and just flat out biased.
On December 15 2013 21:07 Chaggi wrote: I think desRow would have no chance of winning (no offense) in a tournament setting vs Bomber, but this really shows how weird ladder can be.
no it shows how retarded protoss is. desrow is just some random on ladder, not even top 16 GM. its like if a random foreigner beat fantasy in BW, such a thing would never happen, and it shouldnt.
edit: i just saw bomber lose to proxy skillray on his stream against some random on NA ladder...he scouted it and didnt make any mistakes and still lost...pure jokes.
Yep, saw this game. Maybe Bomber shouldn't have made marauders but it's still pretty ridiculous haha. Btw this Hitman guy is a fucking douche, kinda sad to see such BM from the top players of NA.
On December 15 2013 21:07 Chaggi wrote: I think desRow would have no chance of winning (no offense) in a tournament setting vs Bomber, but this really shows how weird ladder can be.
no it shows how retarded protoss is. desrow is just some random on ladder, not even top 16 GM. its like if a random foreigner beat fantasy in BW, such a thing would never happen, and it shouldnt.
edit: i just saw bomber lose to proxy skillray on his stream against some random on NA ladder...he scouted it and didnt make any mistakes and still lost...pure jokes.
Yep, saw this game. Maybe Bomber shouldn't have made marauders but it's still pretty ridiculous haha. Btw this Hitman guy is a fucking douche, kinda sad to see such BM from the top players of NA.
Yes, that was really sad to see, especially to Bomber who is such a cool guy.
Anyway, welcome back SjoW. At the very least, you got yourself a good amount of viewers for your stream
Not only they cheese and all in so much but they are also so BM.. Bomber reported two protoss players today on his stream. It really leaves a bitter taste when GM players play and act like that.
And I am sure that Bomber would have absolutely no problem eliminating any of those guys in actual tournament environment but it is still frustrating to see how gimmicks can prevail over solid play on ladder.
Mid-tier Korean Zergs will not drop games to foreign Terran pros. We're not talking about Terran GM ladder scrubs -- that those guys get annihilated goes without saying. And this is how it should be.
Bomber's record vs. P on ladder, when not fighting Dear or Rain, should be 99%. Like no matter what. He should just destroy. Maybe if he goes 4 CC before Rax the odds can be 50-50.
I don't understand how this is even debateable. Players need to be rewarded more for having godly macro and godly micro. Build order wins are fun if they happen one game out of a BO5. Not every single fucking game, because that's all P really has to fall back on.
Rain and First are like the only two Protoss I consistently enjoy watching (when they're not PvPing that is). God I hate BO wins/losses so much. Can you tell? Can you tell I hate them a lot? Because I do.
On December 15 2013 22:40 pure.Wasted wrote: Mid-tier Korean Zergs will not drop games to foreign Terran pros. We're not talking about Terran GM ladder scrubs -- that those guys get annihilated goes without saying. And this is how it should be.
Bomber's record vs. P on ladder, when not fighting Dear or Rain, should be 99%. Like no matter what. He should just destroy. Maybe if he goes 4 CC before Rax the odds can be 50-50.
I don't understand how this is even debateable. Players need to be rewarded more for having godly macro and godly micro. Build order wins are fun if they happen one game out of a BO5. Not every single fucking game, because that's all P really has to fall back on.
Rain and First are like the only two Protoss I consistently enjoy watching (when they're not PvPing that is). God I hate BO wins/losses so much. Can you tell? Can you tell I hate them a lot? Because I do.
That's more of a problem with the game/ladder than with balance IMO. You can't say that cause Bomber on ladder is fucking world destroying WCS Season 2 winner Bomber, cause he really is not.
Also I've been tabbing in and out of Bomber's stream, has he faced any non-Protoss yet? I've been watching for the last 2-3 hours and I haven't seen 1 non-Toss.
On December 15 2013 22:40 pure.Wasted wrote: I don't understand how this is even debateable. Players need to be rewarded more for having godly macro and godly micro. Build order wins are fun if they happen one game out of a BO5. Not every single fucking game, because that's all P really has to fall back on.
You can have good macro or you have to cut a few corners. But then you are not safe anymore. Because others will cut corners you have to do it as well. That leads to metagame-weaknesses which can be abused.
On December 15 2013 22:54 ZenithM wrote: Bomber sure doesn't look good vs P on his stream right now. But he doesn't do the most serious of builds either.
If I was facing Protoss 90% of the time on ladder, I'd start doing stupid builds too. Can't imagine how much he's hating Toss now
On December 15 2013 22:40 pure.Wasted wrote: Mid-tier Korean Zergs will not drop games to foreign Terran pros. We're not talking about Terran GM ladder scrubs -- that those guys get annihilated goes without saying. And this is how it should be.
Bomber's record vs. P on ladder, when not fighting Dear or Rain, should be 99%. Like no matter what. He should just destroy. Maybe if he goes 4 CC before Rax the odds can be 50-50.
I don't understand how this is even debateable. Players need to be rewarded more for having godly macro and godly micro. Build order wins are fun if they happen one game out of a BO5. Not every single fucking game, because that's all P really has to fall back on.
Rain and First are like the only two Protoss I consistently enjoy watching (when they're not PvPing that is). God I hate BO wins/losses so much. Can you tell? Can you tell I hate them a lot? Because I do.
That's more of a problem with the game/ladder than with balance IMO. You can't say that cause Bomber on ladder is fucking world destroying WCS Season 2 winner Bomber, cause he really is not.
I am for sure 100% talking about game design and not balance.
On December 15 2013 22:40 pure.Wasted wrote: Mid-tier Korean Zergs will not drop games to foreign Terran pros. We're not talking about Terran GM ladder scrubs -- that those guys get annihilated goes without saying. And this is how it should be.
Bomber's record vs. P on ladder, when not fighting Dear or Rain, should be 99%. Like no matter what. He should just destroy. Maybe if he goes 4 CC before Rax the odds can be 50-50.
I don't understand how this is even debateable. Players need to be rewarded more for having godly macro and godly micro. Build order wins are fun if they happen one game out of a BO5. Not every single fucking game, because that's all P really has to fall back on.
Rain and First are like the only two Protoss I consistently enjoy watching (when they're not PvPing that is). God I hate BO wins/losses so much. Can you tell? Can you tell I hate them a lot? Because I do.
That's more of a problem with the game/ladder than with balance IMO. You can't say that cause Bomber on ladder is fucking world destroying WCS Season 2 winner Bomber, cause he really is not.
I am for sure 100% talking about game design and not balance.
It's not really easy to tell a game design problem from a balance problem tbh. You could modify a few numbers on units and reach a state of the game that seems well balanced and well designed, and then change a core mechanics and get a completely imbalanced game. You then tweak some numbers again to get the right balance, only to figure out that that game design change was a shitty one after all.
On December 15 2013 22:40 pure.Wasted wrote: Mid-tier Korean Zergs will not drop games to foreign Terran pros. We're not talking about Terran GM ladder scrubs -- that those guys get annihilated goes without saying. And this is how it should be.
Bomber's record vs. P on ladder, when not fighting Dear or Rain, should be 99%. Like no matter what. He should just destroy. Maybe if he goes 4 CC before Rax the odds can be 50-50.
I don't understand how this is even debateable. Players need to be rewarded more for having godly macro and godly micro. Build order wins are fun if they happen one game out of a BO5. Not every single fucking game, because that's all P really has to fall back on.
Rain and First are like the only two Protoss I consistently enjoy watching (when they're not PvPing that is). God I hate BO wins/losses so much. Can you tell? Can you tell I hate them a lot? Because I do.
That's more of a problem with the game/ladder than with balance IMO. You can't say that cause Bomber on ladder is fucking world destroying WCS Season 2 winner Bomber, cause he really is not.
I am for sure 100% talking about game design and not balance.
I 100% agree. It's just game-design vs balance is a weird topic like ^ said. If someone is "better", they should always win. It's just not that simple like BW where someone that has better mechanics usually won out in the end.
On December 15 2013 22:19 Qwerty85 wrote: Not only they cheese and all in so much but they are also so BM.. Bomber reported two protoss players today on his stream. It really leaves a bitter taste when GM players play and act like that.
That's not exclusive to Protoss. There's tons of people of every race that act like dicks on ladder. I see tons of Terrans bm on streams too, even against players who don't all-in for TvP like Nony.
This isn't a race specific thing, but I have noticed that people have become much more rude or bm on ladder, both in my personal experiences and from what I see on stream. A lot of people seem to have changed their mindsets from improving to whining about other races and blaming their losses on everyone but themselves. There always has been people like this but it seems like this type of mindset has become more prominent. I can't help but think this is related to the rise in popularity of streamers like Avilo, Destiny and MaximusBlack, who all display this incredibly negative mindset. Destiny (I like his stream outside of when he is complaining) seems to end a fair number of his losses, especially against Protoss, with some passive-aggressive statement about the race he is facing rather than gg. MaximusBlack used to be fine but now he complains constantly when his proxy oracle, cannon rush, or warpgate all-in doesn't work. Avilo is the same as always, just with more viewers since he got featured.
On December 16 2013 04:11 JSK wrote: Lol, "because there is too much PVP"…. what a cop out. No respect for this dude.
Weather you believe his reason or not, it is true that high master/GM is filled with protoss. Just watch how many TvP Bomber played today on his stream.
And I heard from a lot of players that they hate PvP.
Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
On December 15 2013 22:19 Qwerty85 wrote: Not only they cheese and all in so much but they are also so BM.. Bomber reported two protoss players today on his stream. It really leaves a bitter taste when GM players play and act like that.
That's not exclusive to Protoss. There's tons of people of every race that act like dicks on ladder. I see tons of Terrans bm on streams too, even against players who don't all-in for TvP like Nony.
This isn't a race specific thing, but I have noticed that people have become much more rude or bm on ladder, both in my personal experiences and from what I see on stream. A lot of people seem to have changed their mindsets from improving to whining about other races and blaming their losses on everyone but themselves. There always has been people like this but it seems like this type of mindset has become more prominent. I can't help but think this is related to the rise in popularity of streamers like Avilo, Destiny and MaximusBlack, who all display this incredibly negative mindset. Destiny (I like his stream outside of when he is complaining) seems to end a fair number of his losses, especially against Protoss, with some passive-aggressive statement about the race he is facing rather than gg. MaximusBlack used to be fine but now he complains constantly when his proxy oracle, cannon rush, or warpgate all-in doesn't work. Avilo is the same as always, just with more viewers since he got featured.
The mindset changing it not a fluke, it speaks to the backlash in the last patch and the general design of one race, mainly Protoss. It's a little frustrating when you can completely catch a Protoss off-gaurd (Marine drop, WM, Banshee etc) and all they have to do is right click on their Nexus. Balance discussion aside, you speak about streamers who have negative attitudes towards the game. I don't watch Maximus or Destiny but I do watch Avilo. Out of all three Avilo has the most experience: He is consistently GM (unlike Maximus) and never quit the game like Destiny. All I will say is his TvT is nearly 70%; TvZ about 60%; TvP in the 30% range. If anyone knows he is a marco player, generally mech and a turtle GoOdy-like style. He is not one to 2-base and bring all his scvs, which is I feel most Terran's are doing these days to win versus P. I think the statistics should tell you something about the general frustration and/or changing mindset of most Terran's in the game. I know Zerg have their complaints too, but I am not experienced with that race enough to comment aside from the PvZ I see on streams. I feel like I am making a somewhat unbiased statement after making GM 5x in WoL then switch to Terran in HOTS with less success than my previous race (toss). I enjoy playing Terran more b/c i find it more challenging but it's pretty sad there are very little opener options in TvP which is making the matchup very stale and not fun at all.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
God I hate players like that. Saying the occasional bm thing when losing is fine, but to win and do it and to keep doing it all game is pathetic. Especially to a player like bomber who if pvt were in better shape would smash him everytime.
On December 15 2013 22:19 Qwerty85 wrote: Not only they cheese and all in so much but they are also so BM.. Bomber reported two protoss players today on his stream. It really leaves a bitter taste when GM players play and act like that.
There always has been people like this but it seems like this type of mindset has become more prominent. I can't help but think this is related to the rise in popularity of streamers like Avilo, Destiny and MaximusBlack, who all display this incredibly negative mindset. Destiny (I like his stream outside of when he is complaining) seems to end a fair number of his losses, especially against Protoss, with some passive-aggressive statement about the race he is facing rather than gg. MaximusBlack used to be fine but now he complains constantly when his proxy oracle, cannon rush, or warpgate all-in doesn't work. Avilo is the same as always, just with more viewers since he got featured.
You're probably right. It's my perception as well. You can also add to this list Sjow now.
Yesterday Grubby showed some worry on ATC broadcast about this current situation.
Its a sad situation for two reasons: (i) display how childish and unmannered people can be; (ii) showcase how stupid (=not smart) people can be. On the other day Avilo was talking shit after one loss against DT rush. The problem? You can't tell which allin protoss is going to throw at you. Plot twist: Avilo scouted a TC but, presumably, couldn't tell the difference between a TC researching blink and one that its idle. As a result, he was prepared for a blink timing.
I started playing as protoss in SC2 Beta, Silver -> Platinum. Then, I went to play Zerg, got better at the game, and loved Zerg -> Masters (hey, 3 seasons masters!). Then I thought "whoooaa, terran" but since I was so used to my bindings, I never managed to set up my production properly (lazyness is a bless...not). So I thought "get back to protoss" and found out it's boring and pvp sucks. Especially, pvp sucks. I'd love to play protoss somehow, but due to pvp, I will never do it. I can fully understand the feelings your going through.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
On December 15 2013 22:19 Qwerty85 wrote: Not only they cheese and all in so much but they are also so BM.. Bomber reported two protoss players today on his stream. It really leaves a bitter taste when GM players play and act like that.
That's not exclusive to Protoss. There's tons of people of every race that act like dicks on ladder. I see tons of Terrans bm on streams too, even against players who don't all-in for TvP like Nony.
This isn't a race specific thing, but I have noticed that people have become much more rude or bm on ladder, both in my personal experiences and from what I see on stream. A lot of people seem to have changed their mindsets from improving to whining about other races and blaming their losses on everyone but themselves. There always has been people like this but it seems like this type of mindset has become more prominent. I can't help but think this is related to the rise in popularity of streamers like Avilo, Destiny and MaximusBlack, who all display this incredibly negative mindset. Destiny (I like his stream outside of when he is complaining) seems to end a fair number of his losses, especially against Protoss, with some passive-aggressive statement about the race he is facing rather than gg. MaximusBlack used to be fine but now he complains constantly when his proxy oracle, cannon rush, or warpgate all-in doesn't work. Avilo is the same as always, just with more viewers since he got featured.
The mindset changing it not a fluke, it speaks to the backlash in the last patch and the general design of one race, mainly Protoss. It's a little frustrating when you can completely catch a Protoss off-gaurd (Marine drop, WM, Banshee etc) and all they have to do is right click on their Nexus. Balance discussion aside, you speak about streamers who have negative attitudes towards the game. I don't watch Maximus or Destiny but I do watch Avilo. Out of all three Avilo has the most experience: He is consistently GM (unlike Maximus) and never quit the game like Destiny. All I will say is his TvT is nearly 70%; TvZ about 60%; TvP in the 30% range. If anyone knows he is a marco player, generally mech and a turtle GoOdy-like style. He is not one to 2-base and bring all his scvs, which is I feel most Terran's are doing these days to win versus P. I think the statistics should tell you something about the general frustration and/or changing mindset of most Terran's in the game. I know Zerg have their complaints too, but I am not experienced with that race enough to comment aside from the PvZ I see on streams. I feel like I am making a somewhat unbiased statement after making GM 5x in WoL then switch to Terran in HOTS with less success than my previous race (toss). I enjoy playing Terran more b/c i find it more challenging but it's pretty sad there are very little opener options in TvP which is making the matchup very stale and not fun at all.
dude, things have been way too toxic since before the oracle patch, and really, even since before this whole "PROTOSS NOOB OP SHIT RACE" bullshit that's been going around. SC2 is not a particularly healthy community when it comes to actually playing the game.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or its a CombatEx clone.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
That's atrocious, imo players like that should be blacklisted and banned from tournaments and shunned by teams and sponsors. They are absolute poison.
I actually wrote a cute little story about him as a preview for the nation wars, I was kind of amused by him after he took down Scarlett somehow. Turns out he was a douche.
On December 15 2013 22:19 Qwerty85 wrote: Not only they cheese and all in so much but they are also so BM.. Bomber reported two protoss players today on his stream. It really leaves a bitter taste when GM players play and act like that.
That's not exclusive to Protoss. There's tons of people of every race that act like dicks on ladder. I see tons of Terrans bm on streams too, even against players who don't all-in for TvP like Nony.
This isn't a race specific thing, but I have noticed that people have become much more rude or bm on ladder, both in my personal experiences and from what I see on stream. A lot of people seem to have changed their mindsets from improving to whining about other races and blaming their losses on everyone but themselves. There always has been people like this but it seems like this type of mindset has become more prominent. I can't help but think this is related to the rise in popularity of streamers like Avilo, Destiny and MaximusBlack, who all display this incredibly negative mindset. Destiny (I like his stream outside of when he is complaining) seems to end a fair number of his losses, especially against Protoss, with some passive-aggressive statement about the race he is facing rather than gg. MaximusBlack used to be fine but now he complains constantly when his proxy oracle, cannon rush, or warpgate all-in doesn't work. Avilo is the same as always, just with more viewers since he got featured.
The mindset changing it not a fluke, it speaks to the backlash in the last patch and the general design of one race, mainly Protoss. It's a little frustrating when you can completely catch a Protoss off-gaurd (Marine drop, WM, Banshee etc) and all they have to do is right click on their Nexus. Balance discussion aside, you speak about streamers who have negative attitudes towards the game. I don't watch Maximus or Destiny but I do watch Avilo. Out of all three Avilo has the most experience: He is consistently GM (unlike Maximus) and never quit the game like Destiny. All I will say is his TvT is nearly 70%; TvZ about 60%; TvP in the 30% range. If anyone knows he is a marco player, generally mech and a turtle GoOdy-like style. He is not one to 2-base and bring all his scvs, which is I feel most Terran's are doing these days to win versus P. I think the statistics should tell you something about the general frustration and/or changing mindset of most Terran's in the game. I know Zerg have their complaints too, but I am not experienced with that race enough to comment aside from the PvZ I see on streams. I feel like I am making a somewhat unbiased statement after making GM 5x in WoL then switch to Terran in HOTS with less success than my previous race (toss). I enjoy playing Terran more b/c i find it more challenging but it's pretty sad there are very little opener options in TvP which is making the matchup very stale and not fun at all.
dude, things have been way too toxic since before the oracle patch, and really, even since before this whole "PROTOSS NOOB OP SHIT RACE" bullshit that's been going around. SC2 is not a particularly healthy community when it comes to actually playing the game.
Agrred. Avilo was non-stop whining about toss even during the gomtvt era when terran were stomping everyone. Trying to use his opinions as a gauge to balance is absurd.
On December 16 2013 20:38 boxerfred wrote: I started playing as protoss in SC2 Beta, Silver -> Platinum. Then, I went to play Zerg, got better at the game, and loved Zerg -> Masters (hey, 3 seasons masters!). Then I thought "whoooaa, terran" but since I was so used to my bindings, I never managed to set up my production properly (lazyness is a bless...not). So I thought "get back to protoss" and found out it's boring and pvp sucks. Especially, pvp sucks. I'd love to play protoss somehow, but due to pvp, I will never do it. I can fully understand the feelings your going through.
Wait, are you really saying that PvP was better back in the days of WoL than HotS? :o Wow, that is kind of surprising... I always thought that protoss would prefer the HotS PvP.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
That's atrocious, imo players like that should be blacklisted and banned from tournaments and shunned by teams and sponsors. They are absolute poison.
I actually wrote a cute little story about him as a preview for the nation wars, I was kind of amused by him after he took down Scarlett somehow. Turns out he was a douche.
Imo, the only solution is a showmatch, bo7 or bo9, between him and Bomber. The winner takes all the money while the loser will be shamed publicly. :D
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
That's atrocious, imo players like that should be blacklisted and banned from tournaments and shunned by teams and sponsors. They are absolute poison.
I actually wrote a cute little story about him as a preview for the nation wars, I was kind of amused by him after he took down Scarlett somehow. Turns out he was a douche.
Imo, the only solution is a showmatch, bo7 or bo9, between him and Bomber. The winner takes all the money while the loser will be shamed publicly. :D
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
That's atrocious, imo players like that should be blacklisted and banned from tournaments and shunned by teams and sponsors. They are absolute poison.
I actually wrote a cute little story about him as a preview for the nation wars, I was kind of amused by him after he took down Scarlett somehow. Turns out he was a douche.
Imo, the only solution is a showmatch, bo7 or bo9, between him and Bomber. The winner takes all the money while the loser will be shamed publicly. :D
Better, loser has to pay the winner.
Regardless how much bullshit he spouts, let's not forget that we are still dealing with a 17yo kid here...
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
That's atrocious, imo players like that should be blacklisted and banned from tournaments and shunned by teams and sponsors. They are absolute poison.
I actually wrote a cute little story about him as a preview for the nation wars, I was kind of amused by him after he took down Scarlett somehow. Turns out he was a douche.
Imo, the only solution is a showmatch, bo7 or bo9, between him and Bomber. The winner takes all the money while the loser will be shamed publicly. :D
Better, loser has to pay the winner.
Regardless how much bullshit he spouts, let's not forget that we are still dealing with a kid here...
I learned how not to be an asshole before I was twelve. I don't wish anything bad on him personally, but if he gets blacklisted from teams and tournaments I'd say that's appropriate.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
That's atrocious, imo players like that should be blacklisted and banned from tournaments and shunned by teams and sponsors. They are absolute poison.
I actually wrote a cute little story about him as a preview for the nation wars, I was kind of amused by him after he took down Scarlett somehow. Turns out he was a douche.
Imo, the only solution is a showmatch, bo7 or bo9, between him and Bomber. The winner takes all the money while the loser will be shamed publicly. :D
Better, loser has to pay the winner.
Regardless how much bullshit he spouts, let's not forget that we are still dealing with a 17yo kid here...
Ok, his parents need to pay the winner. And 17 yo is not that young to be so immature. In most countries 18 years of age is considered an adult with full privileges of being an adult.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
That's atrocious, imo players like that should be blacklisted and banned from tournaments and shunned by teams and sponsors. They are absolute poison.
I actually wrote a cute little story about him as a preview for the nation wars, I was kind of amused by him after he took down Scarlett somehow. Turns out he was a douche.
Imo, the only solution is a showmatch, bo7 or bo9, between him and Bomber. The winner takes all the money while the loser will be shamed publicly. :D
Better, loser has to pay the winner.
Regardless how much bullshit he spouts, let's not forget that we are still dealing with a 17yo kid here...
If you don't have enough brain with 17 to not be such a big ashole (it's even more stupid cause bomber is clearly way superior in skill) you will never have enough. You are no kid with 17 anymore.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
How did I know this was coming. Hitman has always been bm since Wol days. I specifically remember kas going on like an 80 game win streak till he hit hitman and he got beat twice and hitman started to aggressively bm. He does it for attention to well known players. I agree people like that should not be able to participate in tournaments. Not mention he is not that good. Idk why these top grandmasters don't see him as free win if they just blind counter his builds. I know be doesn't hack because I've played him myself but something is very very wrong if a player like that is beating top notch players and has such a high ranking.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
How did I know this was coming. Hitman has always been bm since Wol days. I specifically remember kas going on like an 80 game win streak till he hit hitman and he got beat twice and hitman started to aggressively bm. He does it for attention to well known players. I agree people like that should not be able to participate in tournaments. Not mention he is not that good. Idk why these top grandmasters don't see him as free win if they just blind counter his builds. I know be doesn't hack because I've played him myself but something is very very wrong if a player like that is beating top notch players and has such a high ranking.
Thing is, bomber scouted it very early, seemed to make all the right moves ( in his opinion) and still lost. That's one of many reasons why people hate on Protoss, at any level, doesn't matter if you somehow get lucky and scout which one of 1223443 allins is coming, it can still kill u anyway Protoss hate will never go away, I think people on the forums will just have to live with that.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
How did I know this was coming. Hitman has always been bm since Wol days. I specifically remember kas going on like an 80 game win streak till he hit hitman and he got beat twice and hitman started to aggressively bm. He does it for attention to well known players. I agree people like that should not be able to participate in tournaments. Not mention he is not that good. Idk why these top grandmasters don't see him as free win if they just blind counter his builds. I know be doesn't hack because I've played him myself but something is very very wrong if a player like that is beating top notch players and has such a high ranking.
Thing is, bomber scouted it very early, seemed to make all the right moves ( in his opinion) and still lost. That's one of many reasons why people hate on Protoss, at any level, doesn't matter if you somehow get lucky and scout which one of 1223443 allins is coming, it can still kill u anyway Protoss hate will never go away, I think people on the forums will just have to live with that.
so sick of seeing statements like that, it's just not true. every all in from every race can be stopped if properly scouted and reacted to
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
this is easily one of the worst defense I have ever read.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
this is easily one of the worst defense I have ever read.
Yeah, Hitman is an asshole. I'm all for some trash talking for fun, but you still pause when it is requested. But he is 17, on the Internet and a dumb ass, so I am sure life will sort Hitman out in good time.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
this is easily one of the worst defense I have ever read.
Yeah, Hitman is an asshole. I'm all for some trash talking for fun, but you still pause when it is requested. But he is 17, on the Internet and a dumb ass, so I am sure life will sort Hitman out in good time.
He should be happy to have the oporunity to practice against such a good player... Not act like a dick. There is never an excuse for acting like a dick.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
this is easily one of the worst defense I have ever read.
Yeah, Hitman is an asshole. I'm all for some trash talking for fun, but you still pause when it is requested. But he is 17, on the Internet and a dumb ass, so I am sure life will sort Hitman out in good time.
Life doesn't play much on NA to my knowledge.
Well played. Personally I want to see Incontrol sort him out in an LAN environment. Or, MC, who is willing to run down pick pockets.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Exactly. Bomber is literally taking the easy road by trying to play against NA. All Hitman did was give bomber some scolding for choosing to literally take the easy road by trying to play against NA. If bomber was literally taking the easy rode by playing NA, then he deserves to be constantly harrassed, insulted and bothered by someone. Frankly, Hitman is a North American hero. He stood up for what was right and defended his continent's pride by standing up to the Korean menace and saying "ENOUGH".
I hope I expanded on your defense, LittleSheep -- it was a great one to begin with : )
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
How did I know this was coming. Hitman has always been bm since Wol days. I specifically remember kas going on like an 80 game win streak till he hit hitman and he got beat twice and hitman started to aggressively bm. He does it for attention to well known players. I agree people like that should not be able to participate in tournaments. Not mention he is not that good. Idk why these top grandmasters don't see him as free win if they just blind counter his builds. I know be doesn't hack because I've played him myself but something is very very wrong if a player like that is beating top notch players and has such a high ranking.
Thing is, bomber scouted it very early, seemed to make all the right moves ( in his opinion) and still lost. That's one of many reasons why people hate on Protoss, at any level, doesn't matter if you somehow get lucky and scout which one of 1223443 allins is coming, it can still kill u anyway Protoss hate will never go away, I think people on the forums will just have to live with that.
What is the difference with the 1/1/1-builds that had a couple variations to it? To my knowledge it has roamed around for very long in the wol-days and even if you knew it was coming it could still kill you a lot of the times. Where was the terran-hate back then? Atm I stopped playing protoss on ladder purely because of all the BM you get, only because you play protoss. This is poison for our community, hate on blizzard for the OP nexus cannon or for the insane oracle-dps, don't hate on the people, seriously. It is still a fucking game and for 95% of the community the balance shouldn't matter much for their ranking. I thought the LoL-community was shit...
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Exactly. Bomber is literally taking the easy road by trying to play against NA. All Hitman did was give bomber some scolding for choosing to literally take the easy road by trying to play against NA. If bomber was literally taking the easy rode by playing NA, then he deserves to be constantly harrassed, insulted and bothered by someone. Frankly, Hitman is a North American hero. He stood up for what was right and defended his continent's pride by standing up to the Korean menace and saying "ENOUGH".
I hope I expanded on your defense, LittleSheep -- it was a great one to begin with : )
First, your interpretation of what Bomber is thinking when he plays on NA is entirely yours and a product of imagination rather than reality. Whereas we very well saw in the game chat that Hitman was BM as fuck. I could indeed understand that Hitman reacts like that because he thinks like you (belittled by Bomber or whatnot), but the joke's on you, don't feel threatened by a Korean guy coming over to play on NA because his stream chat required it or something. Beside, I don't think trolling gold leaguers (which is what NA GM is to Bomber, most likely) is Bomber's thing, like it is Dragon's. From what I watched, Bomber seemed to play quite seriously, so please don't be disrespectful.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Exactly. Bomber is literally taking the easy road by trying to play against NA. All Hitman did was give bomber some scolding for choosing to literally take the easy road by trying to play against NA. If bomber was literally taking the easy rode by playing NA, then he deserves to be constantly harrassed, insulted and bothered by someone. Frankly, Hitman is a North American hero. He stood up for what was right and defended his continent's pride by standing up to the Korean menace and saying "ENOUGH".
I hope I expanded on your defense, LittleSheep -- it was a great one to begin with : )
Exactly, aside from your misuse of the word literally, you nailed it.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Exactly. Bomber is literally taking the easy road by trying to play against NA. All Hitman did was give bomber some scolding for choosing to literally take the easy road by trying to play against NA. If bomber was literally taking the easy rode by playing NA, then he deserves to be constantly harrassed, insulted and bothered by someone. Frankly, Hitman is a North American hero. He stood up for what was right and defended his continent's pride by standing up to the Korean menace and saying "ENOUGH".
I hope I expanded on your defense, LittleSheep -- it was a great one to begin with : )
Hitman will not not be repressed by our Korean overlords. He will not be held down or let other suffer the fat of being beaten by a better player. He is a hero to us all.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Exactly. Bomber is literally taking the easy road by trying to play against NA. All Hitman did was give bomber some scolding for choosing to literally take the easy road by trying to play against NA. If bomber was literally taking the easy rode by playing NA, then he deserves to be constantly harrassed, insulted and bothered by someone. Frankly, Hitman is a North American hero. He stood up for what was right and defended his continent's pride by standing up to the Korean menace and saying "ENOUGH".
I hope I expanded on your defense, LittleSheep -- it was a great one to begin with : )
First, your interpretation of what Bomber is thinking when he plays on NA is entirely yours and a product of imagination rather than reality. Whereas we very well saw in the game chat that Hitman was BM as fuck. I could indeed understand that Hitman reacts like that because he thinks like you (belittled by Bomber or whatnot), but the joke's on you, don't feel threatened by a Korean guy coming over to play on NA because his stream chat required it or something. Beside, I don't think trolling gold leaguers (which is what NA GM is to Bomber, most likely) is Bomber's thing, like it is Dragon's. From what I watched, Bomber seemed to play quite seriously, so please don't be disrespectful.
My sarcasm detector triggered when reading his post. There were too many "literally" for his post to be serious... At least that's what I hope.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
He doing it (NA ladder) to be eligible for WCS NA, which has a sizeable prizepool.
On December 17 2013 00:42 SolidSMD wrote: What is the difference with the 1/1/1-builds that had a couple variations to it? To my knowledge it has roamed around for very long in the wol-days and even if you knew it was coming it could still kill you a lot of the times. Where was the terran-hate back then? Atm I stopped playing protoss on ladder purely because of all the BM you get, only because you play protoss. This is poison for our community, hate on blizzard for the OP nexus cannon or for the insane oracle-dps, don't hate on the people, seriously. It is still a fucking game and for 95% of the community the balance shouldn't matter much for their ranking. I thought the LoL-community was shit...
What he said ^. People who play P have probably chosen P long back in WOL days. It's not like everybody who plays P is forces to switch to T or Z just because P is "OP" atm. I play R and love all the races because I love SC2, but sometimes I really hate SC2 because of the people I meet on ladder. I agree that the current Patch is in P's favor, but it's not the players fault right? Btw, P is maybe the DeathBall-race, but not an A-Move race. Any player who wins by a simple a-move is probably up against a Bronze-player.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
He doing it (NA ladder) to be eligible for WCS NA, which has a sizeable prizepool.
You think he would stream and open himself up to this kind of shit if that was his intention? He did some streaming for his fans, he was letting the chat decide where to play. Just stop talking please, you're making my brain hurt.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
He doing it (NA ladder) to be eligible for WCS NA, which has a sizeable prizepool.
So? If he wants to put in the time I be NA ladder, players need to step up their game. Hitman is still an asshole. Or of he wants to win money by not playing Koreans, he needs to not play on WCS.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
No your point doesn't hold up for shit. Regardless of Bombers motives to play on whatever server that'll never serve as a proper excuse for the behaviour that Hitman put on. Your defense is also based on a ton of assumptions and none of these are backed up by any facts whatsoever. Your comparsion to EU players coming onto the NA server for easy wins is in fact hilarious.
Let me clarify:
- You ASSUME that players come onto the NA server for easy wins - You feel offended by this assumption - Due to being offended by an assumption made by yourself, you actually admit to BM:ing other players due to said assumption. - You take said assumption and apply it to Bomber playing on NA and then try to defend Hitmans behaviour by saying "Local players are offended by this" (another assumption, or at least, something you only base on your own experience).
I'm going to assume that your defense originates from the fact that you feel inferior playing on a server which people assume is less-skilled than the other servers. You feel personally offended by this and therfor you have the urge to defend, an inexcusable behaviour to satisfy this urge, probably because you've engaged in such inexcusable behaviour yourself. How am I doing? MY POINT STANDS!
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
No it doesn't. Lets analyze what you said.
1. Bomber is playing on NA ladder to take some easy wins off NA losers - pure speculation 2. Hitman feels the same way as you do about Bomber and is punishing Bomber by rubbing it in - again speculation but this time based on your initial speculation, not actual evidence.
So you are basically projecting some of your frustrations about playing against EU masters (who also allegedly want easy wins) into a mind set of Bomber and qualify all that as evidence, thinking you made a valid point.
On December 16 2013 05:33 blade55555 wrote: [quote]
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
He doing it (NA ladder) to be eligible for WCS NA, which has a sizeable prizepool.
You think he would stream and open himself up to this kind of shit if that was his intention? He did some streaming for his fans, he was letting the chat decide where to play. Just stop talking please, you're making my brain hurt.
Obviously English isn't your first language so I hope I'm being clear enough for you to understand.
It's my understanding that he's collecting wins for WCS NA eligibility, I think some players in NA get defensive about having Koreans come on their server or their WCS region looking for easy wins/money. I wasn't saying what Hitman did was right, just that I can see where he's coming from. You're just fanboying.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
He doing it (NA ladder) to be eligible for WCS NA, which has a sizeable prizepool.
I agree wholeheartedly. Bomber was trying to steal from our NA eSports scene and he was 'sniped' by Hitman, if you will. So what if you never talked to Bomber or asked what he was doing? Do you think he would have answered honestly and told the truth as it stands (that he is simply trying to take advantage of the scene?). No, so you don't need evidence, because the evidence would have been false, anyway. Would a thief ever admit to being a thief - that's why it was such poetic justice that he was harassed and insulted by hitman. Moreover, since Bomber is CLEARLY trying to take the easy road, don't you think he should switch to Protoss? That would facilitate his vacuous endeavor.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
No your point doesn't hold up for shit. Regardless of Bombers motives to play on whatever server that'll never serve as a proper excuse for the behaviour that Hitman put on. Your defense is also based on a ton of assumptions and none of these are backed up by any facts whatsoever. Your comparsion to EU players coming onto the NA server for easy wins is in fact hilarious.
Let me clarify:
- You ASSUME that players come onto the NA server for easy wins - You feel offended by this assumption - Due to being offended by an assumption made by yourself, you actually admit to BM:ing other players due to said assumption. - You take said assumption and apply it to Bomber playing on NA and then try to defend Hitmans behaviour by saying "Local players are offended by this" (another assumption, or at least, something you only base on your own experience).
I'm going to assume that your defense originates from the fact that you feel inferior playing on a server which people assume is less-skilled than the other servers. You feel personally offended by this and therfor you have the urge to defend, an inexcusable behaviour to satisfy this urge, probably because you've engaged in such inexcusable behaviour yourself. How am I doing? MY POINT STANDS!
There's "BM" and then there's BM. This was bad. I don't know if this Hitman guy is a "serious" (NA serious, lol) pro or what, but if he is, I hope his reputation is tarnished until my grandchildren are playing StarCraft 3.
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
you are not giving it a context, you are putting make up reasons why he bm'd bomber when a poster specifically stated that hitman had always been very bm towards pros
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
No your point doesn't hold up for shit. Regardless of Bombers motives to play on whatever server that'll never serve as a proper excuse for the behaviour that Hitman put on. Your defense is also based on a ton of assumptions and none of these are backed up by any facts whatsoever. Your comparsion to EU players coming onto the NA server for easy wins is in fact hilarious.
Let me clarify:
- You ASSUME that players come onto the NA server for easy wins - You feel offended by this assumption - Due to being offended by an assumption made by yourself, you actually admit to BM:ing other players due to said assumption. - You take said assumption and apply it to Bomber playing on NA and then try to defend Hitmans behaviour by saying "Local players are offended by this" (another assumption, or at least, something you only base on your own experience).
I'm going to assume that your defense originates from the fact that you feel inferior playing on a server which people assume is less-skilled than the other servers. You feel personally offended by this and therfor you have the urge to defend, an inexcusable behaviour to satisfy this urge, probably because you've engaged in such inexcusable behaviour yourself. How am I doing? MY POINT STANDS!
On December 16 2013 05:33 blade55555 wrote: [quote]
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
you are not giving it a context, you are putting make up reasons why he bm'd bomber when a poster specifically stated that hitman had always been very bm towards pros
I think the language barrier is making it difficult for you to understand my point, you're taking it in a different manner than I wished to express it.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
you are not giving it a context, you are putting make up reasons why he bm'd bomber when a poster specifically stated that hitman had always been very bm towards pros
I think the language barrier is making it difficult for you to understand my point, you're taking it in a different manner than I wished to express it.
Yeah the language barrier is kind of a problem here, we don't speak stupid.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
you are not giving it a context, you are putting make up reasons why he bm'd bomber when a poster specifically stated that hitman had always been very bm towards pros
I think the language barrier is making it difficult for you to understand my point, you're taking it in a different manner than I wished to express it.
All right, knock it off with the language barrier defense to your poorly thought out arguments. Either respond to his criticism for real or concede.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
you are not giving it a context, you are putting make up reasons why he bm'd bomber when a poster specifically stated that hitman had always been very bm towards pros
I think the language barrier is making it difficult for you to understand my point, you're taking it in a different manner than I wished to express it.
um ok you said hitman bm'd bomber is due to bomber on NA ladder earning easy wins. Any proof? This is not a context, it is a theory.
On the other hand, a much more plausible theory is that hitman is just in general, a very bm person. Why? Because he bm'd kas even back in WoL days.
On December 16 2013 21:13 Squat wrote: [quote] If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
you are not giving it a context, you are putting make up reasons why he bm'd bomber when a poster specifically stated that hitman had always been very bm towards pros
I think the language barrier is making it difficult for you to understand my point, you're taking it in a different manner than I wished to express it.
Yeah the language barrier is kind of a problem here, we don't speak stupid.
All he's saying is that Bomber was trying to take advantage of a situation by getting easy wins on the NA server. So it was poetic justice or karma that he was harassed and insulted repeatedly. HitMan was simply standing up against someone trying to abuse the NA ladder.
On December 16 2013 05:33 blade55555 wrote: [quote]
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
He doing it (NA ladder) to be eligible for WCS NA, which has a sizeable prizepool.
I agree wholeheartedly. Bomber was trying to steal from our NA eSports scene and he was 'sniped' by Hitman, if you will. So what if you never talked to Bomber or asked what he was doing? Do you think he would have answered honestly and told the truth as it stands (that he is simply trying to take advantage of the scene?). No, so you don't need evidence, because the evidence would have been false, anyway. Would a thief ever admit to being a thief - that's why it was such poetic justice that he was harassed and insulted by hitman. Moreover, since Bomber is CLEARLY trying to take the easy road, don't you think he should switch to Protoss? That would facilitate his vacuous endeavor.
I hope that helped, Littlesheep.
Now I'm convinced, Bomber prefers NA ladder because of the obvious latency advantages and because he's more comfortable with English than Korean. The lower skill level on NA is irrelevant.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
you are not giving it a context, you are putting make up reasons why he bm'd bomber when a poster specifically stated that hitman had always been very bm towards pros
I think the language barrier is making it difficult for you to understand my point, you're taking it in a different manner than I wished to express it.
You messed up your point entirely. The context you gave doesn't excuse any of Hitman's behavior. It's like explaining why some psychopath kid carved up a kitten.
On December 16 2013 05:33 blade55555 wrote: [quote]
Did hitman really bm bomber? lol wtf.
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Exactly. Bomber is literally taking the easy road by trying to play against NA. All Hitman did was give bomber some scolding for choosing to literally take the easy road by trying to play against NA. If bomber was literally taking the easy rode by playing NA, then he deserves to be constantly harrassed, insulted and bothered by someone. Frankly, Hitman is a North American hero. He stood up for what was right and defended his continent's pride by standing up to the Korean menace and saying "ENOUGH".
I hope I expanded on your defense, LittleSheep -- it was a great one to begin with : )
First, your interpretation of what Bomber is thinking when he plays on NA is entirely yours and a product of imagination rather than reality. Whereas we very well saw in the game chat that Hitman was BM as fuck. I could indeed understand that Hitman reacts like that because he thinks like you (belittled by Bomber or whatnot), but the joke's on you, don't feel threatened by a Korean guy coming over to play on NA because his stream chat required it or something. Beside, I don't think trolling gold leaguers (which is what NA GM is to Bomber, most likely) is Bomber's thing, like it is Dragon's. From what I watched, Bomber seemed to play quite seriously, so please don't be disrespectful.
My sarcasm detector triggered when reading his post. There were too many "literally" for his post to be serious... At least that's what I hope.
I wasn't replying to him specifically, but all the posts before were all too serious :D
On December 16 2013 21:13 Squat wrote: [quote] If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
you are not giving it a context, you are putting make up reasons why he bm'd bomber when a poster specifically stated that hitman had always been very bm towards pros
I think the language barrier is making it difficult for you to understand my point, you're taking it in a different manner than I wished to express it.
You messed up your point entirely. The context you gave doesn't excuse any of Hitman's behavior. It's like explaining why some psychopath kid carved up a kitten.
Just by reading this post, I think it's now clear to me that I don't take BM nearly as serious as the posters here.
Hitman has always been really bm, I have some old replays from last year where he says a slew of transphobic comments over 3 games. Young + bm +cheesing protoss players, what a surprise
Yeah like hardcore, to the point where Bomber asked for a pause and hitman unpaused saying "LOLNO". + He kept messaging him inbetween game saying stupid crap and making me wondering about some kind of streamsniping.
If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
He doing it (NA ladder) to be eligible for WCS NA, which has a sizeable prizepool.
I agree wholeheartedly. Bomber was trying to steal from our NA eSports scene and he was 'sniped' by Hitman, if you will. So what if you never talked to Bomber or asked what he was doing? Do you think he would have answered honestly and told the truth as it stands (that he is simply trying to take advantage of the scene?). No, so you don't need evidence, because the evidence would have been false, anyway. Would a thief ever admit to being a thief - that's why it was such poetic justice that he was harassed and insulted by hitman. Moreover, since Bomber is CLEARLY trying to take the easy road, don't you think he should switch to Protoss? That would facilitate his vacuous endeavor.
I hope that helped, Littlesheep.
Now I'm convinced, Bomber prefers NA ladder because of the obvious latency advantages and because he's more comfortable with English than Korean. The lower skill level on NA is irrelevant.
What does that have to do with Hitman being an asshat? Because that is what we were discussing before you can and derailed into nonsense land.
On December 16 2013 21:27 AxionSteel wrote: [quote]
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
you are not giving it a context, you are putting make up reasons why he bm'd bomber when a poster specifically stated that hitman had always been very bm towards pros
I think the language barrier is making it difficult for you to understand my point, you're taking it in a different manner than I wished to express it.
Yeah the language barrier is kind of a problem here, we don't speak stupid.
All he's saying is that Bomber was trying to take advantage of a situation by getting easy wins on the NA server. So it was poetic justice or karma that he was harassed and insulted repeatedly. HitMan was simply standing up against someone trying to abuse the NA ladder.
On December 16 2013 21:13 Squat wrote: [quote] If that's actually true he should be removed from the Canada vs USA nation wars thingy. Unacceptable behaviour if you are going to represent your country in front of thousands of viewers. Teams and the community in general needs to start cracking down on this shit, hard.
Not to mention the audacity of a super cheesy protoss to whine about anything balance related.
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
He doing it (NA ladder) to be eligible for WCS NA, which has a sizeable prizepool.
I agree wholeheartedly. Bomber was trying to steal from our NA eSports scene and he was 'sniped' by Hitman, if you will. So what if you never talked to Bomber or asked what he was doing? Do you think he would have answered honestly and told the truth as it stands (that he is simply trying to take advantage of the scene?). No, so you don't need evidence, because the evidence would have been false, anyway. Would a thief ever admit to being a thief - that's why it was such poetic justice that he was harassed and insulted by hitman. Moreover, since Bomber is CLEARLY trying to take the easy road, don't you think he should switch to Protoss? That would facilitate his vacuous endeavor.
I hope that helped, Littlesheep.
Now I'm convinced, Bomber prefers NA ladder because of the obvious latency advantages and because he's more comfortable with English than Korean. The lower skill level on NA is irrelevant.
What does that have to do with Hitman being an asshat? Because that is what we were discussing before you can and derailed into nonsense land.
I was saying that if that was the case here, and Hitman was taking offence at Bomber smurfing in NA, and that's why he was being rude, then I understand it more, personally.
A few posters here don't think that it has any impact on how they feel about Hitman.
On December 16 2013 23:30 Littlesheep wrote: [quote]
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
you are not giving it a context, you are putting make up reasons why he bm'd bomber when a poster specifically stated that hitman had always been very bm towards pros
I think the language barrier is making it difficult for you to understand my point, you're taking it in a different manner than I wished to express it.
Yeah the language barrier is kind of a problem here, we don't speak stupid.
All he's saying is that Bomber was trying to take advantage of a situation by getting easy wins on the NA server. So it was poetic justice or karma that he was harassed and insulted repeatedly. HitMan was simply standing up against someone trying to abuse the NA ladder.
Right?
This is pretty much what I was saying, yes.
"Harassed and insulted repeatedly"
Does anyone know if he survived?
LOL abuse the NA ladder. NA could use some abusing and see how the big buys play. Kids like Hitman should step up their game, rather than acting like a clown.
On December 16 2013 21:27 AxionSteel wrote: [quote]
It was quite terrible. he was spamming PM's to him after the game with "EZPZ" and other stuff and added a "Get out of my server, only GOOD players play on NA" message as well (or something very similar). Either he is very young or is a CombatEx clone.
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
He doing it (NA ladder) to be eligible for WCS NA, which has a sizeable prizepool.
I agree wholeheartedly. Bomber was trying to steal from our NA eSports scene and he was 'sniped' by Hitman, if you will. So what if you never talked to Bomber or asked what he was doing? Do you think he would have answered honestly and told the truth as it stands (that he is simply trying to take advantage of the scene?). No, so you don't need evidence, because the evidence would have been false, anyway. Would a thief ever admit to being a thief - that's why it was such poetic justice that he was harassed and insulted by hitman. Moreover, since Bomber is CLEARLY trying to take the easy road, don't you think he should switch to Protoss? That would facilitate his vacuous endeavor.
I hope that helped, Littlesheep.
Now I'm convinced, Bomber prefers NA ladder because of the obvious latency advantages and because he's more comfortable with English than Korean. The lower skill level on NA is irrelevant.
What does that have to do with Hitman being an asshat? Because that is what we were discussing before you can and derailed into nonsense land.
I was saying that if that was the case here, and Hitman was taking offence at Bomber smurfing in NA, and that's why he was being rude, then I understand it more, personally.
A few posters here don't think that it has any impact on how they feel about Hitman.
Let's move on.
No mattter if Bomber is really on NA in order to play in WCS NA or not, Hitman acted like a douche. And that's the issue.
On December 16 2013 23:30 Littlesheep wrote: [quote]
In Hitmans defence, Bomber is playing on NA looking for easy wins, which local players can sometimes take offense to. Even if Bomber doesn't say it, that's what he's thinking.
"Well I'll just come over and take some easy wins off some NA losers"
Hitman was probably just rubbing it in that he can take games off him, I can sort of see it, it's obviously BM, but look at it from his perspective.
I ladder in the early mornings on NA, and there are a lot of EU masters players playing on NA at this time looking for easy wins off "NA noobs". When I beat them I rub it in occasionally, I just don't like their attitude about it.
Not saying Hitman is right, and Bomber has accomplished way more than he likely ever will, I'm just saying there is always two sides to a story.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
He doing it (NA ladder) to be eligible for WCS NA, which has a sizeable prizepool.
I agree wholeheartedly. Bomber was trying to steal from our NA eSports scene and he was 'sniped' by Hitman, if you will. So what if you never talked to Bomber or asked what he was doing? Do you think he would have answered honestly and told the truth as it stands (that he is simply trying to take advantage of the scene?). No, so you don't need evidence, because the evidence would have been false, anyway. Would a thief ever admit to being a thief - that's why it was such poetic justice that he was harassed and insulted by hitman. Moreover, since Bomber is CLEARLY trying to take the easy road, don't you think he should switch to Protoss? That would facilitate his vacuous endeavor.
I hope that helped, Littlesheep.
Now I'm convinced, Bomber prefers NA ladder because of the obvious latency advantages and because he's more comfortable with English than Korean. The lower skill level on NA is irrelevant.
What does that have to do with Hitman being an asshat? Because that is what we were discussing before you can and derailed into nonsense land.
I was saying that if that was the case here, and Hitman was taking offence at Bomber smurfing in NA, and that's why he was being rude, then I understand it more, personally.
A few posters here don't think that it has any impact on how they feel about Hitman.
Let's move on.
No mattter if Bomber is really on NA in order to play in WCS NA or not, Hitman acted like a douche. And that's the issue.
I think the actual issue this thread is intended for is to discuss Sjow ending his Protoss experiment, not what Hitman typed to Bomber.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
Oh your point stands all right, it's just stupid as shit. Easy money? Wtf kind of money is he going to make off the NA ladder? You think Bomber gives a shit about ladder wins?
This has got to be some of the dumber stuff I've ever read on this site.
He doing it (NA ladder) to be eligible for WCS NA, which has a sizeable prizepool.
I agree wholeheartedly. Bomber was trying to steal from our NA eSports scene and he was 'sniped' by Hitman, if you will. So what if you never talked to Bomber or asked what he was doing? Do you think he would have answered honestly and told the truth as it stands (that he is simply trying to take advantage of the scene?). No, so you don't need evidence, because the evidence would have been false, anyway. Would a thief ever admit to being a thief - that's why it was such poetic justice that he was harassed and insulted by hitman. Moreover, since Bomber is CLEARLY trying to take the easy road, don't you think he should switch to Protoss? That would facilitate his vacuous endeavor.
I hope that helped, Littlesheep.
Now I'm convinced, Bomber prefers NA ladder because of the obvious latency advantages and because he's more comfortable with English than Korean. The lower skill level on NA is irrelevant.
What does that have to do with Hitman being an asshat? Because that is what we were discussing before you can and derailed into nonsense land.
I was saying that if that was the case here, and Hitman was taking offence at Bomber smurfing in NA, and that's why he was being rude, then I understand it more, personally.
A few posters here don't think that it has any impact on how they feel about Hitman.
Let's move on.
No mattter if Bomber is really on NA in order to play in WCS NA or not, Hitman acted like a douche. And that's the issue.
I think the actual issue this thread is intended for is to discuss Sjow ending his Protoss experiment, not what Hitman typed to Bomber.
Well it wasn't so much as WHAT HE TYPED because that wasn't important. What was important is that Hitman had the wherewithall to see what Bomber's diabolical intentions were. So he acted and called him out on it. LIke you said, what he said wasn't the issue, it was it was very understandable since he was angry that Bomber was trying to take the literal easy road and get easy wins; until he ran into a high level protoss
On December 17 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote: Tshi is doing some fucking high level troll right now. It's hard to tell if he is serious or totally mocking sheep. It's some next level nonsense.
I don't see it as particularly "high level" at all, it's been pretty obvious in all his posts. He doesn't agree with me so the best way to illustrate that clearly is to use "literally" in place of "figuratively", brilliant.
My god, what a troll. I can't even tell what race he played, but his posts about zealots and colossi are priceless. He is a fallen prince of TL trolling.
Hope you are not a lawyer, because that is terrible defense.
Bomber actually asked people on the stream if they want him to compete in KR, EU or NA server. Now, I just glanced through WCS 2014 changes, but as far as I know you need to be at least in master league and have 200 ladder wins on that server to be able to participate.
So if anything, he just wants to fill in the requirements to be able to play NA if he decides so.
And you can't possibly know what is going on inside Bomber's head so that is really a bad excuse to justify BM.
I for once would feel privileged to play against someone of Bomber's caliber, no matter if he is terran, zerg or protoss and what I might thing about terran, zerg or protoss.
He's playing in WCS NA for easier games, easier wins, easier money, that's all. My point still stands.
You do realize that your point is based on your impression of what is going on in Bomber's head. Not only that, you also have a theory about why is Hitman acting like a douchebag, again based solely on your opinion, not actual facts.
That is why I said it is terrible defense.
For example, I could say "Dear chose to play protoss because he wanted easier games, easier wins, easier money." I have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.
It is exact same thing as what you said.
I think the widely accepted opinion of why Koreans play in WCS NA is because it's easier than WCS Korea, I hardly think I'm the first person to bring this up.
I'm not saying this justifies Hitman acting like a jerk, I'm just trying to give it context.
you are not giving it a context, you are putting make up reasons why he bm'd bomber when a poster specifically stated that hitman had always been very bm towards pros
I think the language barrier is making it difficult for you to understand my point, you're taking it in a different manner than I wished to express it.
Yeah the language barrier is kind of a problem here, we don't speak stupid.
All he's saying is that Bomber was trying to take advantage of a situation by getting easy wins on the NA server. So it was poetic justice or karma that he was harassed and insulted repeatedly. HitMan was simply standing up against someone trying to abuse the NA ladder.
Right?
This is pretty much what I was saying, yes.
"Harassed and insulted repeatedly"
Does anyone know if he survived?
LOL abuse the NA ladder. NA could use some abusing and see how the big buys play. Kids like Hitman should step up their game, rather than acting like a clown.
Those Koreans playing on EU/AM ladder are a chance for the local players; since they're (usually) better they systematically push you towards your limits. Personally I would sure love to play someone like PartinG or Soulkey from time to time, even if it means getting absolutely mauled.
On December 17 2013 06:20 DinoMight wrote: Can we get a high level protoss to do the same (but backwards) and see if they can succeed?
I would love to see a Protoss switch to Terran and annihilate everyone.
Or a high level Zerg switch to both and get to GM with both races. Them we could just say,"races dont matter, if your good at SC2, you can play any race."
On December 17 2013 06:20 DinoMight wrote: Can we get a high level protoss to do the same (but backwards) and see if they can succeed?
I would love to see a Protoss switch to Terran and annihilate everyone.
Or a high level Zerg switch to both and get to GM with both races. Them we could just say,"races dont matter, if your good at SC2, you can play any race."
Well, you are wrong. Zerg actually does require less skill
But yeah.. I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of playing the other races and knowing what they're capable of. Savior did it (he played as Terran a lot). MC plays a pretty sick Zerg I hear. And Taeja off-races on his stream and demolishes people.
Like Jaedong said.. fear of imbalance is more dangerous than imbalance itself. I'd say Blizzard has it close enough that anyone working hard enough should be able to succeed with any race, with the right attitude.
On December 17 2013 06:20 DinoMight wrote: Can we get a high level protoss to do the same (but backwards) and see if they can succeed?
I would love to see a Protoss switch to Terran and annihilate everyone.
Or a high level Zerg switch to both and get to GM with both races. Them we could just say,"races dont matter, if your good at SC2, you can play any race."
Well, you are wrong. Zerg actually does require less skill
But yeah.. I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of playing the other races and knowing what they're capable of. Savior did it (he played as Terran a lot). MC plays a pretty sick Zerg I hear. And Taeja off-races on his stream and demolishes people.
Like Jaedong said.. fear of imbalance is more dangerous than imbalance itself. I'd say Blizzard has it close enough that anyone working hard enough should be able to succeed with any race, with the right attitude.
holy shit someone really needs to let avilo know.
Brilliant quote though, yeah. If you go in thinking you're going to lose cuz of broken game, you probably will.
To be clear on the Jeadong quote, that was Xenocider paraphrasing what he learned from Joeadong. I am sure he said something close to that that way little Xino was talking, but it may not have been word for word. Still a lesson to live by, focus on what you can change, which is you.
On December 17 2013 06:54 Plansix wrote: To be clear on the Jeadong quote, that was Xenocider paraphrasing what he learned from Joeadong. I am sure he said something close to that that way little Xino was talking, but it may not have been word for word. Still a lesson to live by, focus on what you can change, which is you.
Yeah you're right - I wasn't actually quoting, just paraphrasing. But those are wise words nonetheless.
On December 17 2013 06:54 Plansix wrote: To be clear on the Jeadong quote, that was Xenocider paraphrasing what he learned from Joeadong. I am sure he said something close to that that way little Xino was talking, but it may not have been word for word. Still a lesson to live by, focus on what you can change, which is you.
True, but I can understand the frustration of our Terran brethren, though.
The reduction in early game opportunity to press Protoss is limiting. Think about how our openings against Terran, in WOL, were usually (towards the end of WOL) just 1 Gate FE to Robo+2-3 gates etc. We could do little else. The situation appears to have been reversed (at least partially). It is not good. Certainly for competitive ladder players.
That said, I do not believe knee-jerk solutions are the way to go. The MSC is a wonderful addition to Protoss in HOTS enabling flexibility in Protoss game play. The Nexus Cannon is also required. It is useful in all match-ups, and while it allows some Protoss to (at the current time) play too greedy against Terran, it is especially useful in PvP and that MU has flourished as a result. (Although, I am not sure if the Oracle changes have, again, constricted PvP - it is too early to tell.)
As others have suggesed, a tweak to NC duration/range and MSC casting range may be the way to go. But, Blizzard, rightfully sticking to their current approach to give things time, will take a while to see if a tweak is needed. Unfortunately, Terran players will have to make the best of it. Who knows? A solution may arise. SC2 has a history of the wonderful and unexpected.
On December 17 2013 06:54 Plansix wrote: To be clear on the Jeadong quote, that was Xenocider paraphrasing what he learned from Joeadong. I am sure he said something close to that that way little Xino was talking, but it may not have been word for word. Still a lesson to live by, focus on what you can change, which is you.
True, but I can understand the frustration of our Terran brethren, though.
The reduction in early game opportunity to press Protoss is limiting. Think about how our openings against Terran, in WOL, were usually (towards the end of WOL) just 1 Gate FE to Robo+2-3 gates etc. We could do little else. The situation appears to have been reversed (at least partially). It is not good. Certainly for competitive ladder players.
That said, I do not believe knee-jerk solutions are the way to go. The MSC is a wonderful addition to Protoss in HOTS enabling flexibility in Protoss game play. The Nexus Cannon is also required. It is useful in all match-ups, and while it allows some Protoss to (at the current time) play too greedy against Terran, it is especially useful in PvP and that MU has flourished as a result. (Although, I am not sure if the Oracle changes have, again, constricted PvP - it is too early to tell.)
As others have suggesed, a tweak to NC duration and MSC casting range may be the way to go. But, Blizzard, rightfully sticking to their current approach to give things time, will take a while to get around to it. Unfortunately, Terran players will have to make the best of it. Who knows? A solution may arise. SC2 has a history of the wonderful and unexpected.
At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
DinoMight, I just have a few questions about your post. Although I am a terran player I am not crying imba at all with this
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Unit buffs? HotS brought a few unit buffs to terran, but nothing that changes how you play TvP. Medivac speed helps but goes hand in hand with photon overcharge allowing for easier drop defense. Plus, we were building medivacs and dropping anyway. Reapers can now be made with no tech lab, which is nice for openers but obviously they are not units that change how you play the matchup in the mid-late game. Most other buffs came in the form of buffs to mech (combined upgrades, the recent tank buff) New units? Widow mines are great harassment tools but are really not great in TvP beyond the early game. They are easily killed by stalkers + obs and can be blinked out of. Hellbats are an okay addition to an army against a chargelot heavy composition, but their range and speed makes them colossus food.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Per your request I will not start an argument over the viability of mech in TvP . But I will say that being that greedy against a protoss is difficult without very careful scouting. Forgoing heavy marine production early leaves you very susceptible to oracles and blink timings are pretty hard to hold as well, with mines not helping much considering stalkers can blink out of mine shots. All that being said, I think you are spot on that terrans are often afraid of the mothership core, and tosses sometimes think too much of them. There are some potential stim timings that can really punish a greedy toss, despite the MSC.
On December 17 2013 08:13 Darkhoarse wrote: DinoMight, I just have a few questions about your post. Although I am a terran player I am not crying imba at all with this
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Unit buffs? HotS brought a few unit buffs to terran, but nothing that changes how you play TvP. Medivac speed helps but goes hand in hand with photon overcharge allowing for easier drop defense. Plus, we were building medivacs and dropping anyway. Reapers can now be made with no tech lab, which is nice for openers but obviously they are not units that change how you play the matchup in the mid-late game. Most other buffs came in the form of buffs to mech (combined upgrades, the recent tank buff) New units? Widow mines are great harassment tools but are really not great in TvP beyond the early game. They are easily killed by stalkers + obs and can be blinked out of. Hellbats are an okay addition to an army against a chargelot heavy composition, but their range and speed makes them colossus food.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Per your request I will not start an argument over the viability of mech in TvP . But I will say that being that greedy against a protoss is difficult without very careful scouting. Forgoing heavy marine production early leaves you very susceptible to oracles and blink timings are pretty hard to hold as well, with mines not helping much considering stalkers can blink out of mine shots. All that being said, I think you are spot on that terrans are often afraid of the mothership core, and tosses sometimes think too much of them. There are some potential stim timings that can really punish a greedy toss, despite the MSC.
Hellbats work really well against Zealots. I agree they suck against Colossus but it's contextual... I wouldn't build Colossus if I saw you had a fleet of Vikings either. When I play T and I see Templar first I usually go for some Hellbats. I've seen both ForGG and Bomber totally annihilate LiquidHerO with Hellbat/Ghost/Marauder.
Also, the new reaper gives Terran the best early game scouting they've ever had. Even with a MsC and Stalker it's hard to hide anything in your base these days. And if the Protoss is trying really hard to deny vision of a corner in his base.. just use a scan to look there - chances are he's hiding something.
Two points I wanted to make:
1) I feel that Terrans are overly scared of the Mothership Core. Sure it's strong in the early game against small 1 Medivac drops, but I actually feel that as the game goes on it becomes pretty irrelevant. I'm finding that against strong Terrans I'm having a harder time in the mid-late game than I did in WoL because they can just boost in 3 Medivacs, drop 12 Marauders, and focus down my Nexus before I can do anything about it. I know that sound stupid, but you learn a lot from playing the other races and that's one of the things I learned when I played Terran, because I knew that as Protoss relying on the Mothership Core for defense is bad past the 10 min mark.
2) Terrans have been very stubborn in TvP. When you think of every other matchup - TvT, TvZ, PvP, PvZ - they have fundamentally changed from how they were played in WoL. Terrans on the other hand are using the same exact WoL TvP builds (with the exception of the early reaper scout). Everyone is doing some sort of rax expand followed by either 3 rax and a CC or 5 rax with a bit more pressure and a later CC. When you do the same exact 2 Medivac timing that you used in Wings, it's just not going to work against an opponent that has a new defensive tool in their arsenal.
These builds need to be redesigned to hit either earlier, before Protoss has enough army units supporting the MsC to defend, or later, in such numbers that the Photon Overcharge is irrelevant. Already I've seen some Terrans begin to go straight for the 3CC without wasting units on drops or anything and then hit with a huge MMM ball and a bunch of Vikings right before my Storm tech is up. That's a really strong push.
Proxy factory widow mine rushes are insanely hard to deal with if not scouted in time. Even with no probe losses.. the lost mining time is so huge that it can put you seriously behind. People just need to be more creative.
(and also I think Hots mech can be viable on certain maps but that's another discussion)
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
How did I know this was coming. Hitman has always been bm since Wol days. I specifically remember kas going on like an 80 game win streak till he hit hitman and he got beat twice and hitman started to aggressively bm. He does it for attention to well known players. I agree people like that should not be able to participate in tournaments. Not mention he is not that good. Idk why these top grandmasters don't see him as free win if they just blind counter his builds. I know be doesn't hack because I've played him myself but something is very very wrong if a player like that is beating top notch players and has such a high ranking.
Thing is, bomber scouted it very early, seemed to make all the right moves ( in his opinion) and still lost. That's one of many reasons why people hate on Protoss, at any level, doesn't matter if you somehow get lucky and scout which one of 1223443 allins is coming, it can still kill u anyway Protoss hate will never go away, I think people on the forums will just have to live with that.
What is the difference with the 1/1/1-builds that had a couple variations to it? To my knowledge it has roamed around for very long in the wol-days and even if you knew it was coming it could still kill you a lot of the times. Where was the terran-hate back then? Atm I stopped playing protoss on ladder purely because of all the BM you get, only because you play protoss. This is poison for our community, hate on blizzard for the OP nexus cannon or for the insane oracle-dps, don't hate on the people, seriously. It is still a fucking game and for 95% of the community the balance shouldn't matter much for their ranking. I thought the LoL-community was shit...
There was no difference at all. You just have a selective memory. Terran players using 1/1/1 in those days were ridiculed. PuMa copped all kinds of abuse on these forums, even some random butthurt TL writer wrote an article about puma using imba builds to take down a superior player (MC). As for your personal experience, that's just too bad. Protoss will always get more hate because of how it is designed. It's just far more frustrating to play against than the other races. You may get offended, but plenty of other Protoss enjoy seeing people cry. I know I did when I played Protoss
On December 16 2013 04:37 painkilla wrote: Hitman-Bomber, what a sad game to watch. And wtf is wrong with this guy Hitman? So BM, won with an abusive unit such as voidray and the whined about marines.
How did I know this was coming. Hitman has always been bm since Wol days. I specifically remember kas going on like an 80 game win streak till he hit hitman and he got beat twice and hitman started to aggressively bm. He does it for attention to well known players. I agree people like that should not be able to participate in tournaments. Not mention he is not that good. Idk why these top grandmasters don't see him as free win if they just blind counter his builds. I know be doesn't hack because I've played him myself but something is very very wrong if a player like that is beating top notch players and has such a high ranking.
Thing is, bomber scouted it very early, seemed to make all the right moves ( in his opinion) and still lost. That's one of many reasons why people hate on Protoss, at any level, doesn't matter if you somehow get lucky and scout which one of 1223443 allins is coming, it can still kill u anyway Protoss hate will never go away, I think people on the forums will just have to live with that.
What is the difference with the 1/1/1-builds that had a couple variations to it? To my knowledge it has roamed around for very long in the wol-days and even if you knew it was coming it could still kill you a lot of the times. Where was the terran-hate back then? Atm I stopped playing protoss on ladder purely because of all the BM you get, only because you play protoss. This is poison for our community, hate on blizzard for the OP nexus cannon or for the insane oracle-dps, don't hate on the people, seriously. It is still a fucking game and for 95% of the community the balance shouldn't matter much for their ranking. I thought the LoL-community was shit...
There was no difference at all. You just have a selective memory. Terran players using 1/1/1 in those days were ridiculed. PuMa copped all kinds of abuse on these forums, even some random butthurt TL writer wrote an article about puma using imba builds to take down a superior player (MC). As for your personal experience, that's just too bad. Protoss will always get more hate because of how it is designed. It's just far more frustrating to play against than the other races. You may get offended, but plenty of other Protoss enjoy seeing people cry. I know I did when I played Protoss
Haha, i remember that. I used to make SC2 posts on Facebook when the clock struck 1:11. 8D.
Maybe puma should come back and win with protoss since its 'broken' now instead of terran? Can it be done? Can a terran player win with protoss, I assume all the extra apm can come in handy to shit talk the other guy while playing
Edit: realized that the answer is no after I saw the thread title again, lol.
Godspeed, good sir. I'm sure this will be irrevocable proof that David Kim will not possibly be able to ignore. As a fellow terran myself, this is really interesting since i'm currently platinum but i WOULD BE Masters if it weren't for protoss. =/ This will make eSports history!
On December 17 2013 08:13 Darkhoarse wrote: DinoMight, I just have a few questions about your post. Although I am a terran player I am not crying imba at all with this
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Unit buffs? HotS brought a few unit buffs to terran, but nothing that changes how you play TvP. Medivac speed helps but goes hand in hand with photon overcharge allowing for easier drop defense. Plus, we were building medivacs and dropping anyway. Reapers can now be made with no tech lab, which is nice for openers but obviously they are not units that change how you play the matchup in the mid-late game. Most other buffs came in the form of buffs to mech (combined upgrades, the recent tank buff) New units? Widow mines are great harassment tools but are really not great in TvP beyond the early game. They are easily killed by stalkers + obs and can be blinked out of. Hellbats are an okay addition to an army against a chargelot heavy composition, but their range and speed makes them colossus food.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Per your request I will not start an argument over the viability of mech in TvP . But I will say that being that greedy against a protoss is difficult without very careful scouting. Forgoing heavy marine production early leaves you very susceptible to oracles and blink timings are pretty hard to hold as well, with mines not helping much considering stalkers can blink out of mine shots. All that being said, I think you are spot on that terrans are often afraid of the mothership core, and tosses sometimes think too much of them. There are some potential stim timings that can really punish a greedy toss, despite the MSC.
Hellbats work really well against Zealots. I agree they suck against Colossus but it's contextual... I wouldn't build Colossus if I saw you had a fleet of Vikings either. When I play T and I see Templar first I usually go for some Hellbats. I've seen both ForGG and Bomber totally annihilate LiquidHerO with Hellbat/Ghost/Marauder.
Also, the new reaper gives Terran the best early game scouting they've ever had. Even with a MsC and Stalker it's hard to hide anything in your base these days. And if the Protoss is trying really hard to deny vision of a corner in his base.. just use a scan to look there - chances are he's hiding something.
Two points I wanted to make:
1) I feel that Terrans are overly scared of the Mothership Core. Sure it's strong in the early game against small 1 Medivac drops, but I actually feel that as the game goes on it becomes pretty irrelevant. I'm finding that against strong Terrans I'm having a harder time in the mid-late game than I did in WoL because they can just boost in 3 Medivacs, drop 12 Marauders, and focus down my Nexus before I can do anything about it. I know that sound stupid, but you learn a lot from playing the other races and that's one of the things I learned when I played Terran, because I knew that as Protoss relying on the Mothership Core for defense is bad past the 10 min mark.
2) Terrans have been very stubborn in TvP. When you think of every other matchup - TvT, TvZ, PvP, PvZ - they have fundamentally changed from how they were played in WoL. Terrans on the other hand are using the same exact WoL TvP builds (with the exception of the early reaper scout). Everyone is doing some sort of rax expand followed by either 3 rax and a CC or 5 rax with a bit more pressure and a later CC. When you do the same exact 2 Medivac timing that you used in Wings, it's just not going to work against an opponent that has a new defensive tool in their arsenal.
These builds need to be redesigned to hit either earlier, before Protoss has enough army units supporting the MsC to defend, or later, in such numbers that the Photon Overcharge is irrelevant. Already I've seen some Terrans begin to go straight for the 3CC without wasting units on drops or anything and then hit with a huge MMM ball and a bunch of Vikings right before my Storm tech is up. That's a really strong push.
Proxy factory widow mine rushes are insanely hard to deal with if not scouted in time. Even with no probe losses.. the lost mining time is so huge that it can put you seriously behind. People just need to be more creative.
(and also I think Hots mech can be viable on certain maps but that's another discussion)
I don't know about the criticism that terrans are 'unwilling/stuborn' to adapt or change things up. Terran had the most adverse openings.
1-1-1 got shutdown due to larger maps and immortal buff Early ghost pushes due to EMP nerf Hellbats drops nerfed Widow mines drops nerf (not worth it even if you get mine burrowed in time due to the AoE change) banshees opening not viable due to MsC SCV pull timings that got figured out mech is just bad because of immortals and chargelots
So basically we are left with bio openings that are slowed down because we are coin flipping if we don't go reaper first. So basically all terrans are left with is bio timings. Although that do sometimes work. But if protoss has enough defense, you fall way behind and the game just snowballs. It isn't like Protoss with blink where they can do a soft contain for them to get their eco back up if they don't want to commit.
On December 17 2013 15:26 tshi wrote: Godspeed, good sir. I'm sure this will be irrevocable proof that David Kim will not possibly be able to ignore. As a fellow terran myself, this is really interesting since i'm currently platinum but i WOULD BE Masters if it weren't for protoss. =/ This will make eSports history!
On December 17 2013 16:12 darkness wrote: Well, if a Terran player finds PvP annoying, then I'm not a weird Protoss player. Actually, I think a lot of Protoss players don't like PvP, so yeah..
I like it most of the time, its generally been my best matchup. I just seem to kinda get it most of the time it seems like.
the "anti-whine" brigade is all well and good, but for the most part, top players are not very outspoken about perceived balance and game design flaws. the norm is to shut up and practice harder. is there a relation between this attitude and results? is it impossible to be successful in a game you feel is fundamentally flawed? tough to prove imo
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
Furthermore terran can't be greedier because you need 6 marines, a mine or turret potentially by 5.05 otherwise you just flat out die to oracles. This is more than was needed in wings. You also need to make sure you are safe vs blink all ins, robo busts and void busts which require quite different responses.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Some "TL Forum Protoss" who happens to play Terran as well.
Amused how you skip that part. Not to mention you say "professional TvP" when the incessant whining recently has been about ladder. Which is it? Ladder or professional games? Because in progames the winrates are pretty reasonable.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Almost every terran player uses a hellion drop, if you go to ATT they champion the proxy mine, mines to defend oracles have been standard for a while. Our openings don't matter when they all lead to the same 3 units, +2 if it goes to lategame.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses.
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
[...] Furthermore terran can't be greedier because you need 6 marines, a mine or turret potentially by 5.05 otherwise you just flat out die to oracles. This is more than was needed in wings. You also need to make sure you are safe vs blink all ins, robo busts and void busts which require quite different responses.
You mean and a turret or how do you deal with dark templars?
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses.
Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them).
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses.
Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them).
Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA toss yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If that is the case, enlighten me.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses.
Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them).
Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If so, enlighten me.
Gas first 1-1-1 does exist in TvP, but it's a "niche build" (it cannot be used as a standard). If Protoss scouts it and prepares accordingly, you deal no damage and you're economically behind. See for instance TaeJa vs sOs, Akilon Wastes, at the last Dreamhack: sOs scouted the attack, simply evacuated his natural and held without losing a single Probe. He lost afterwards because he tried something too ambitious and lost two critical Templars, but he was definitely ahead after the opening. Same story in Bogus vs San, Whirlwind, Dailymotion Cup; if scouted, Terran also has to worry about a Stalker counter-attack. While this build can deal lots of damage against an unprepared Protoss or against builds skipping detection/cheating on units to tech agressively (quick dual forge, Dark shrine, etc.), it cannot threaten anything serious against 13 scout + MSC expand into detection (Stargate or robo forge).
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses.
Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them).
Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA toss yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If that is the case, enlighten me.
This kind of opening ( marine mines medivacs /+hellions) was used extensively at first in HoTs, either with fast expand (see IM build, reaper expand into mines drop) or delayed expand (gaz first mine drop, eventually proxy), it simply got outdated because good protoss defended it too well, and either counter-pressured you to win (3g robo, stalkers + obs ) or entered mid-game with an important advantage (notably on upgrades for forge-based defense with a photon per mineral). Then they nerfed the mine, and now even vs a non-prepared good toss it's hard to get ahead ^^
Not to mention tons of BO hard-countering this shit blindly (like fe stargate, dt play, or 2 base blink ).
So yeah you can do it occasionally to try punishing non-scouting toss or inferior opponents (see MMA lastly ), buts that's not a reliable opening anymore.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses.
Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them).
Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If so, enlighten me.
Gas first 1-1-1 does exist in TvP, but it's a "niche build" (it cannot be used as a standard). If Protoss scouts it and prepares accordingly, you deal no damage and you're economically behind. See for instance TaeJa vs sOs, Akilon Wastes, at the last Dreamhack: sOs scouted the attack, simply evacuated his natural and held without losing a single Probe. He lost afterwards because he tried something too ambitious and lost two critical Templars, but he was definitely ahead after the opening. Same story in Bogus vs San, Whirlwind, Dailymotion Cup; if scouted, Terran also has to worry about a Stalker counter-attack. While this build can deal lots of damage against an unprepared Protoss or against builds skipping detection/cheating on units to tech agressively (quick dual forge, Dark shrine, etc.), it cannot threaten anything serious against 13 scout + MSC expand into detection (Stargate or robo forge).
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses.
Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them).
Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If so, enlighten me.
Gas first 1-1-1 does exist in TvP, but it's a "niche build" (it cannot be used as a standard). If Protoss scouts it and prepares accordingly, you deal no damage and you're economically behind. See for instance TaeJa vs sOs, Akilon Wastes, at the last Dreamhack: sOs scouted the attack, simply evacuated his natural and held without losing a single Probe. He lost afterwards because he tried something too ambitious and lost two critical Templars, but he was definitely ahead after the opening. Same story in Bogus vs San, Whirlwind, Dailymotion Cup; if scouted, Terran also has to worry about a Stalker counter-attack. While this build can deal lots of damage against an unprepared Protoss or against builds skipping detection/cheating on units to tech agressively (quick dual forge, Dark shrine, etc.), it cannot threaten anything serious against 13 scout + MSC expand into detection (Stargate or robo forge).
Is everyone paying attention? THIS is how you should gripe, and analyze build orders.
Beautiful post, thank you for the game references to be able to see it in action. I would give you TL+, but you already have it.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses.
Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them).
Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA toss yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If that is the case, enlighten me.
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Maybe he just finds it wierd that we skipped the Z whining in hots and went straight to P. But don't you worry whenever gglord/swarmhost/infestor/viper turtle has been figured out we'll see plenty of Z is IMBA
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Maybe he just finds it wierd that we skipped the Z whining in hots and went straight to P. But don't you worry whenever gglord/swarmhost/infestor/viper turtle has been figured out we'll see plenty of Z is IMBA
It's already started quietly with mass mutas hehe.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
At least bring up some points why said style would not work instead of just ridiculing the guy, you're only giving proof for his theory about terran's being close-minded with such responses.
Anyone who plays the game at a decent level knows that his claims are ridiculous. His offrace Terran is probably no more than Diamond, perhaps low Masters at best, and he just uses the few games he had against bad opponents to justify his vague theorycraft about Terran "not using all their options" (something particularly amusing considering the history of Terran losing tons of options precisely because they were using them).
Ok, fair enough, he probably overestimates the power of his build. But opening marine/mine/medivac in tvp isn't that bad as you make it seem, I saw bomber using it vs some NA yesterday, later destroying toss army at his third with a nice flank. It doesn't seem to be a bad opening at all and it gives you plenty of options to deal with protoss all-ins (you have fact and port up already). Yet many terran still choose to open up fast expand and hit with the medivac timing around 10 mins, which every toss prepares for nowadays. So I really don't see why the opening isn't used more, is there some hardcounter i don't know about? If so, enlighten me.
Gas first 1-1-1 does exist in TvP, but it's a "niche build" (it cannot be used as a standard). If Protoss scouts it and prepares accordingly, you deal no damage and you're economically behind. See for instance TaeJa vs sOs, Akilon Wastes, at the last Dreamhack: sOs scouted the attack, simply evacuated his natural and held without losing a single Probe. He lost afterwards because he tried something too ambitious and lost two critical Templars, but he was definitely ahead after the opening. Same story in Bogus vs San, Whirlwind, Dailymotion Cup; if scouted, Terran also has to worry about a Stalker counter-attack. While this build can deal lots of damage against an unprepared Protoss or against builds skipping detection/cheating on units to tech agressively (quick dual forge, Dark shrine, etc.), it cannot threaten anything serious against 13 scout + MSC expand into detection (Stargate or robo forge).
Is everyone paying attention? THIS is how you should gripe, and analyze build orders.
Beautiful post, thank you for the game references to be able to see it in action. I would give you TL+, but you already have it.
Problem is this has been mentioned in the thread previously. Numerous pro game example were cited. But Protoss just mention how their off race Terran somehow came up with this ingenious build that crushes Ps. And pro Terrans are just too lazy to adapt even though it could mean winning tournaments. Protoss used to argue that Protoss didn't win any tournaments but now that they have, they argue the win rate is not that bad...
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
Yeah. Also the patchzerg era was reflective also of tournament play - with quite a few top pros convinced of imbalance. This is different. It is more about ladder (which is essentially meaningless in the larger scheme of things) and is quite abusive online and on TL. I'm usually calm about these sorts of things. But, idiocy upon idiocy is irritating and, after that, dispiriting.
I've been thinking it might be time for a bit of a break from SC2 for me. Next year may be better. Heck, DK might come out with a tweak to the MSC/NC and an Oracle nerf and we can then all calm down about our precious ladder games.
On December 13 2013 21:12 Plansix wrote: Well that was quick, but I am not really surprised at the outcome. The grass is always greener. Those stream viewers sure were nice for him for a while.
On December 13 2013 21:12 Plansix wrote: Well that was quick, but I am not really surprised at the outcome. The grass is always greener. Those stream viewers sure were nice for him for a while.
Clearly Protoss was too easy.
Something like that. Or needed those stream views. At least the thread allowed more people to be exposed to the great Jaedongs teachings on balance and self reflection.
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
Yeah. Also the patchzerg era was reflective also of tournament play - with quite a few top pros convinced of imbalance. This is different. It is more about ladder (which is essentially meaningless in the larger scheme of things) and is quite abusive online and on TL. I'm usually calm about these sorts of things. But, idiocy upon idiocy is irritating and, after that, dispiriting.
I've been thinking it might be time for a bit of a break from SC2 for me. Next year may be better. Heck, DK might come out with a tweak to the MSC/NC and an Oracle nerf and we can then all calm down about our precious ladder games.
Amen. Exactly how I feel. You might wanna try out Starbow, really fun mod, it's a mix of bw and sc2 and a couple new/tweaked stuff. It's still in beta-phase, but a lot of stuff really feels good, like bw pvt metagame (mech that is actually good and fun to play, comebacks possible, longer and more battles, ...).
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
I don't know where you were during broodlord infestor, but it certainly wasn't on any forums. It was much more abusive. It's been cyclical and this recent Protoss is OP trend isn't any worse than anything has been before.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
ROFL.
Terrans whining that Protoss is imbalanced on the LADDER. Because obviously it is not imbalanced in tournaments (win rates are very close to 50%). Okay, I can understand given the number of high P on ladder that they'd be upset.
So then you give them ideas of things that they can do on the ladder that work for you when you play Terran, and they tell you that FUCKING RAIN AND PARTING can beat these strategies.
????
PROFESSIONAL TvP IS NOT IMBALANCED!! This is just statistics.
Ladder Terrans, as demonstrated by this thread, are incredibly stubborn and do not want to listen to anything that can help them. Even from guys who main Protoss who are here giving you suggestions and telling you things that they lose to. TO HELP YOU WIN.
I don't understand it. It's like you WANT to lose so you can complain. I bet all TL.net Terrans are into weird S&M and bondage shit too lol. It's fucking ridiculous.
Let's go through this logic again:
1) I play Protoss. Obviously I only win on ladder because of my race. 2) I play Terran. I win because my opponents are not Rain and Parting. 3) When I lose as Protoss, I write down the strategies that beat me and then try them as Terran. 4) I win with them as Terran. 5) I go on TL.net to share them with other LADDER TERRANS to help them 6) They ridicule my strategies and go back to complaining about GSL
Fuck it.
I hope you drown in Psi Storm under the shadow of my Colossi while my Zealots boogie under the disco lights of my Oracles. And the DTs will be there too but you won't see them because they're fucking permanently invisible. Deal with it.
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
Again, it was exactly like that so stop saying it wasn't. Patchzerg was a term widely accepted in this forum even by mods for fuck sake. Zergs were hated for the patchzerg era and for months later as well, it wsn't till the hellbat that zergs finally were finally stop being spit upon and even then we had "stop whining asshole, you got your OP moment so suffer now". crap.
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
I don't know where you were during broodlord infestor, but it certainly wasn't on any forums. It was much more abusive. It's been cyclical and this recent Protoss is OP trend isn't any worse than anything has been before.
Zerg broodlord infestor was probably the worst.
Yeah, the Zerg hate was strong in the patchZerg era and there was a lot of Protoss hate during the Idra vs Cruncher era. Then the era of GOMTvT.
Not all of those era's balance whine was based on logic or reality. Some were, some were based on whine from popular community figures. The volume of complaints might not relate to reality or their validity. It's why I alway rely on who is winning and does it look fair, rather than the consensus at the time.
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
Again, it was exactly like that so stop saying it wasn't. Patchzerg was a term widely accepted in this forum even by mods for fuck sake. Zergs were hated for the patchzerg era and for months later as well, it wsn't till the hellbat that zergs finally were finally stop being spit upon and even then we had "stop whining asshole, you got your OP moment so suffer now". crap.
I think there is a big difference between calling uprising pro's during an OP time for zerg patchzergs and calling random people on ladder faggets/noobs/retards/... because they choose to play protoss (which they probably have been for the last years). I don't mind people calling toss imba that much, what I mislike is the hate and elitism that you get from many terrans.
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
Again, it was exactly like that so stop saying it wasn't. Patchzerg was a term widely accepted in this forum even by mods for fuck sake. Zergs were hated for the patchzerg era and for months later as well, it wsn't till the hellbat that zergs finally were finally stop being spit upon and even then we had "stop whining asshole, you got your OP moment so suffer now". crap.
I think there is a big difference between calling uprising pro's during an OP time for zerg patchzergs and calling random people on ladder faggets/noobs/retards/... because they choose to play protoss (which they probably have been for the last years). I don't mind people calling toss imba that much, what I mislike is the hate and elitism that you get from many terrans.
But it was the same, only a step further since even pro's had to suffer under that nonsense. Really, just look in either patchzerg thread and see the complete bullshit that came out of some people's mouth, you'd be surprised. Mind you, i am in no way defending the current protoss hate nonsense, just saying this happened before and imo was further stage.
On December 17 2013 07:58 DinoMight wrote: At least on ladder, I've been seeing a range of timings based around hitting when the Protoss player is most dependent on MsC. Because it's so strong, Protoss players tend to play greedier leaving them open to some pre-medivacs stim bio pushes if they don't rush to Colossus. I've lost to a few guys who have come in with a bunch of bio (pre-stim) and just focused down my Nexus right before my Colossus finished.
I think Terrans are still doing almost exactly the same thing they were in WoL depsite a lot of the buffs Terran units have gotten and despite having new tools to work with.
Knowing that the MsC is there and learning to deal with it is important I think. Because the Protoss relies on Mothership core for defense, Terran can be greedier in the early game and get up to... say.. 3 base Mech much faster than they could in WoL (JUST AN EXAMPLE, I don't want to start a viability of mech thread).
Over-reliance on MsC is very exploitable I think.
So warhounds got removed. Hellbats were repeatedly nerfed. Mines have just been nerfed. All of them were used heavily enough to be considered match up warping and subsequently changed. Mine drops and hellbat drops were both things in TvP pre nerf. TvP is hugely dependant on the terrans medivac usage. Terrans frequently open reaper in TvP. They also automatically use the merged upgrades (since it doesn't change playstyle).
What exactly is it that terrans are missing? slightly faster siege tank firing? thor anti air? ravens?
Terrans are doing the same thing because the new non late game units were almost nerfed out of the match up. I don't think you can justifiably say they aren't using the new tools when every new non lategame change (except tanks) has been explored and tanks are crap in the match up thanks to zealots, immortals and also some new hots changes (photon overcharge and tempests).
I main Protoss but I do also play Terran.
When I play TvP I open with a hellion drop, By the time it arrives (thanks to turbovacs) Protoss typically has Photon Overcharge and a couple of Stalkers at his natural with the first observer on the way to your base I imagine. Even with the mighty photon overcharge, I almost always get 10+ kills just because Hellions kill probes faster than Photon Overcharge kills Hellions. It's math. If you manage to kill 15+ workers, pull SCVs at 10-11 mins and #YOLOSWAG.
A single widow mine protects me from Oracles. If you put it in your mineral line, the SCVs will hide the burrow spot and he'll fly right into it. Scouting with Hots Super Reapers and bunkers protects me from other cheese timings.
Terran is not as hard or as limited as Terran players think it is. I actually wish more Terran players would play Protoss just to see the shit they can lose to.
Yeah, totes man, every single Terran in the world just doesn't get how to play, but some god mode TL Forum Protoss does, I'm sure you would revolutionise professional tvp given the opportunity .
Just wait until he dominates GSL with his revolutionary Hellion drop into 2-bases SCV pull. I already expect the likes of PartinG and Rain to shake like a leaf when matched against the future TvP bonjwa DinoMight.
ROFL.
Terrans whining that Protoss is imbalanced on the LADDER. Because obviously it is not imbalanced in tournaments (win rates are very close to 50%). Okay, I can understand given the number of high P on ladder that they'd be upset.
So then you give them ideas of things that they can do on the ladder that work for you when you play Terran, and they tell you that FUCKING RAIN AND PARTING can beat these strategies.
????
PROFESSIONAL TvP IS NOT IMBALANCED!! This is just statistics.
Ladder Terrans, as demonstrated by this thread, are incredibly stubborn and do not want to listen to anything that can help them. Even from guys who main Protoss who are here giving you suggestions and telling you things that they lose to. TO HELP YOU WIN.
I don't understand it. It's like you WANT to lose so you can complain. I bet all TL.net Terrans are into weird S&M and bondage shit too lol. It's fucking ridiculous.
Let's go through this logic again:
1) I play Protoss. Obviously I only win on ladder because of my race. 2) I play Terran. I win because my opponents are not Rain and Parting. 3) When I lose as Protoss, I write down the strategies that beat me and then try them as Terran. 4) I win with them as Terran. 5) I go on TL.net to share them with other LADDER TERRANS to help them 6) They ridicule my strategies and go back to complaining about GSL
Fuck it.
I hope you drown in Psi Storm under the shadow of my Colossi while my Zealots boogie under the disco lights of my Oracles. And the DTs will be there too but you won't see them because they're fucking permanently invisible. Deal with it.
Since you apparently failed to understand it, my post was sarcastic. Blind statistics are also meaningless without an analysis (a) of the forces in presence and (b) of the actual content of the games to know how/why one side won and the other lost. Last but not least, being GM for 10 seasons, your low level offrace Terran isn't going to teach me anything. I know much better than you what's at stake for both sides for any given opening or situation, and I'm the one who could actually teach you both sides of TvP.
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
Not as abusive? Pro players were being called "patch Zerg" (or in other words, shit players riding an IMBA race). Terran was crucified for a good time during early WOL, with many of the non-Terran personalities (Idra, Artosis, Incontrol, etc) making joke after whine about both the race and the players. All of this gets reflected in abuse on the ladder where every bronze to master scrub (or low level pro) will justify his loss with imbalance.
Point is, there has always been whine. When it's directed at the "other" 2 races, it seems fine or funny or legitimate, when is directed at "your" race though, it's unbearable and unjustified hehe
Balance whining is part of what makes competition fun though, like blaming the referee in football. Part of the game IMO.
PROFESSIONAL TvP IS NOT IMBALANCED!! This is just statistics
You don't understand statistics at all. Just look at this information from Aliguac;
PvT = 55% favour of protoss. 985 games played TvZ = 50%, 942 games played PvZ = 50%. 1525 games played
Notice the most important stat of them all: Games played! Why on earth are there so much fewer games played with terrans?
I tell you the most obvious answer to that: Terran is underpowered both in competitive tournmanets and on the ladder. This has the effect of only making it possible for the very best terran players to compete in tournaments. Meanwhile, inferior protoss and zergs are being matched up against superior terran players. In TvZ, the superior terran players are roughly even against the inferior zerg players. But in TvP, we see that all these random protosses are beating the very very best terran players.
If the game was balanced, terran should have over 50% w/r on the Aliguac stats (probably close to 55%) !
So just by looking at these statistics, the imbalance is strikingly clear: Terran is by far the worst race in the game and TvP is the most imbalanced matchup of them all. Source: http://aligulac.com/reports/
The numbers were indeed worse during the Broodlord/infestor area, however it isn't actually that far away today.
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
Again, it was exactly like that so stop saying it wasn't. Patchzerg was a term widely accepted in this forum even by mods for fuck sake. Zergs were hated for the patchzerg era and for months later as well, it wsn't till the hellbat that zergs finally were finally stop being spit upon and even then we had "stop whining asshole, you got your OP moment so suffer now". crap.
I think there is a big difference between calling uprising pro's during an OP time for zerg patchzergs and calling random people on ladder faggets/noobs/retards/... because they choose to play protoss (which they probably have been for the last years). I don't mind people calling toss imba that much, what I mislike is the hate and elitism that you get from many terrans.
Ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner!
That is exactly what is bugging me. Is Protoss strong on ladder right now? Yeah it appears to be. But that does not mean that everyone who plays Protoss only plays it to get easy wins. I've played it since 2010. I suffered through the 1/1/1 era, through the mass infestor beating every Protoss composition era (you know, when we saw 30+ infestors in a few GSL games), through immortal/sentry or die to infestor/broodlord era, why would I stop now? I've seen other people (and have been myself) personally insulted by Terran players just for playing Protoss. There needs to be a line drawn somewhere. Yes there were personalities promoting this attitude in the past about races (especially Idra) but it felt like back then people ignored it for the most part. Now that isn't as much the case and has been like this for a while.
Are there people who switched to Protoss just because they are good on ladder right now? Probably. They are likely the same people who switched to Zerg during the infestor/broodlord era. They are probably the same people who did blind hellbat drops against every race near the end of the HOTS beta. They want the path of least resistance to winning, simple as that. I don't like that they do it but it's not like there is anything we can do to stop it.
That is some creative math right there. The win rates show a nearly even split, yet there are fewer terrans. The only possible outcome, Zerg and Protoss are OP. Sure, the current terrans are winning at the same rate as everyone else. Clearly the only way true balance can happen is if we have perfect 33/33/33 split.
Seriously, there are some leaps of logic going on in this thread some times. Some valid complaints from some,(like dwf, who has stepped up his balance arguments), but some of these boil down to "this number for Protoss is higher, so Terran must be underpowered. Just ignore Korea, please. They are magic."
On December 18 2013 03:57 Plansix wrote: That is some creative math right there. The win rates show a nearly even split, yet there are fewer terrans. The only possible outcome, Zerg and Protoss are OP. Sure, the current terrans are winning at the same rate as everyone else. Clearly the only way true balance can happen is if we have perfect 33/33/33 split.
Seriously, there are some leaps of logic going on in this thread some times. Some valid complaints from some,(like dwf, who has stepped up his balance arguments), but some of these boil down to "this number for Protoss is higher, so Terran must be underpowered. Just ignore Korea, please. They are magic."
Was wondering when you'd show up, slingin' that logic.
I love the rallying cry of the Balance Whiners: "Ignore XYZ, they're just really good!"
I can only handle silly arguments for so long. People should just take Dwfs approach and focus on specifics, like Terran scouting in the early game. Rather than the less than compelling arguments of "look at GM!!!! Do you se all those Protoss? Justify them to me, because that looks like some imbalance right there."
I think protoss did better in korea last month but I don't know how to get the result of korea only for november. I'm pretty sure it's closer to 60 than 50% in Korea, so no, korean terran are no longer above everyone else.
The numbers were indeed worse during the Broodlord/infestor area, however it isn't actually that far away today.
If you are going to use sourced statistics, at least don't round them up in your favor. It says right there PvT is 54.01%, any unbiased rounding would yield 54% and not 55%. I am not saying this is the hugest deal, but conveniently rounding up to 55% shows the bias which really does not help your case here.
The biggest problem for me is scouting after the reaper, because Scan is not exactly a reliable way to scout, and even if you scout some tech, it can mean a lot of different things or the P just changes it up. Its not impossible to win vs. P, but need to scout really well. And in my opinion P has a lot more option to scout and with Terran, you cant hide your tech vs. Oracle or Hallucination.
The numbers were indeed worse during the Broodlord/infestor area, however it isn't actually that far away today.
If you are going to use sourced statistics, at least don't round them up in your favor. It says right there PvT is 54.01%, any unbiased rounding would yield 54% and not 55%. I am not saying this is the hugest deal, but conveniently rounding up to 55% shows the bias which really does not help your case here.
For his defense, I think there were some changes recently, IIRC it was something like 44,73% few days ago. Maybe they added a few matchs. I might be wrong tho.
On December 17 2013 23:32 Crownlol wrote: I find myself reading the sc2 portions of TL.net a *lot* less lately, since the entire prevailing culture is "OMG YOU GUISE, PROTOSS IMBA".
How did we devolve into a whiny, battle.net forums-style circlejerk?
Maybe next year will be better.
Do you happen to play Protoss? Because it's always been the same, Terran IMBA then Zerg Infestor IMBA, now it's about Protoss. So maybe it's not the whining that you have a problem with, but with the Protoss IMBA whining in particular.
Nah, its never been this whiny before. Or this abusive. Even when Infestor/Broodlord was killing EVERYTHING it wasn't this bad.
Uhm, yes it was. Remember Lings of Liberty thread? Till the protoss that gets a thread like allowed by the mods the blord/infestor era was quite a bit worse in whine terms.
No, it wasn't nearly as abusive. No one at the time was saying "GTFO ZERG SCUM" or anything like that. There were the "patchzerg" things, but even that wasn't nearly as abusive as the community currently is towards Protoss players.
Again, it was exactly like that so stop saying it wasn't. Patchzerg was a term widely accepted in this forum even by mods for fuck sake. Zergs were hated for the patchzerg era and for months later as well, it wsn't till the hellbat that zergs finally were finally stop being spit upon and even then we had "stop whining asshole, you got your OP moment so suffer now". crap.
I think there is a big difference between calling uprising pro's during an OP time for zerg patchzergs and calling random people on ladder faggets/noobs/retards/... because they choose to play protoss (which they probably have been for the last years). I don't mind people calling toss imba that much, what I mislike is the hate and elitism that you get from many terrans.
Ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner!
That is exactly what is bugging me. Is Protoss strong on ladder right now? Yeah it appears to be. But that does not mean that everyone who plays Protoss only plays it to get easy wins. I've played it since 2010. I suffered through the 1/1/1 era, through the mass infestor beating every Protoss composition era (you know, when we saw 30+ infestors in a few GSL games), through immortal/sentry or die to infestor/broodlord era, why would I stop now? I've seen other people (and have been myself) personally insulted by Terran players just for playing Protoss. There needs to be a line drawn somewhere. Yes there were personalities promoting this attitude in the past about races (especially Idra) but it felt like back then people ignored it for the most part. Now that isn't as much the case and has been like this for a while.
Are there people who switched to Protoss just because they are good on ladder right now? Probably. They are likely the same people who switched to Zerg during the infestor/broodlord era. They are probably the same people who did blind hellbat drops against every race near the end of the HOTS beta. They want the path of least resistance to winning, simple as that. I don't like that they do it but it's not like there is anything we can do to stop it.
This is so true... I am getting really tired of some players answering to my "gg gl hf" by " STFU FUCKING PROTOSS". I do agree that maybe P is a bit too strong right now, but it is our fault?
The numbers were indeed worse during the Broodlord/infestor area, however it isn't actually that far away today.
If you are going to use sourced statistics, at least don't round them up in your favor. It says right there PvT is 54.01%, any unbiased rounding would yield 54% and not 55%. I am not saying this is the hugest deal, but conveniently rounding up to 55% shows the bias which really does not help your case here.
Actually, that 1% is very important when you're only talking about +- 5% fluctuations.
The numbers were indeed worse during the Broodlord/infestor area, however it isn't actually that far away today.
If you are going to use sourced statistics, at least don't round them up in your favor. It says right there PvT is 54.01%, any unbiased rounding would yield 54% and not 55%. I am not saying this is the hugest deal, but conveniently rounding up to 55% shows the bias which really does not help your case here.
For his defense, I think there were some changes recently, IIRC it was something like 44,73% few days ago. Maybe they added a few matchs. I might be wrong tho.
December 2nd PvT (55.05%) 812 games PvZ (49.72%) 1265 games TvZ (48.63%) 769 games
Clearly the only way to come to a clear understanding is to clarify to the point where the unclear cannot be made any clearer. Is that crystal? My proposal would be to poll those indiscriminate and unbiased, underappreciated halo’s of knowledge that go undervalued- our Random brethren. They not only play all sides of the coin (er- dice in this case) they can tell you that at equal MMR levels if a disproportionate level of skill is needed for any given matchup.
You guys I’m sure will dismiss this post as mere schumuckleydoo because there’s no professional random players and we’re all labeled as committed cheesers… but I assure you the opinions are valid.. and should hold more weight in my humblest of opinions than those of who are die-hard racists pigs. Random players are the Mariah Carey’s of starcraft.. we can play either race card whenever it’s convenient.
The numbers were indeed worse during the Broodlord/infestor area, however it isn't actually that far away today.
If you are going to use sourced statistics, at least don't round them up in your favor. It says right there PvT is 54.01%, any unbiased rounding would yield 54% and not 55%. I am not saying this is the hugest deal, but conveniently rounding up to 55% shows the bias which really does not help your case here.
For his defense, I think there were some changes recently, IIRC it was something like 44,73% few days ago. Maybe they added a few matchs. I might be wrong tho.
Well he does mention the 985 games played, which is the same for the 54.01% I see. So I'm pretty sure it was just a sneaky rounding up to make Terran look a tad weaker, which really is just kinda sad >_<
On December 18 2013 03:57 Plansix wrote: That is some creative math right there. The win rates show a nearly even split, yet there are fewer terrans. The only possible outcome, Zerg and Protoss are OP. Sure, the current terrans are winning at the same rate as everyone else. Clearly the only way true balance can happen is if we have perfect 33/33/33 split.
Seriously, there are some leaps of logic going on in this thread some times. Some valid complaints from some,(like dwf, who has stepped up his balance arguments), but some of these boil down to "this number for Protoss is higher, so Terran must be underpowered. Just ignore Korea, please. They are magic."
Its actually basic math/statistics, and I don't think you understand how either the Aliguac w/r works or the Blizzard ladder statistics works. Basically, they will (regardless of balance) always go towards 50/50.
To see the intuition behind this, imagine that one race gets buffed in a patch and thus becomes OP. Let's imagine that a player was high master before the path, and afterwards his race benefits from a little buff which is enough to put him into GM. Thus postpatch, we will see a change in distribution favoring the new OP race.
Shortly after the launch of the path, there will be changes in w/r but after the MMRs of the players have adjusted to the new "balance", w/r will go towards 50-50 again. This is due to the expectations of him now being evenly matched up against players that prepatch were slightly superior to him. So the only thing that has changed is the distribution.
Aliguacs stats works in a similarly way (though there is a bigger lag-effect with those stats relatively to ladder-stats). In order to play competitively, you need a certain level of skills. If your race gets buffed, your chance of playing competitively increases. However, long-term W/R are still 50-50% since players of "even skill" are being matched up against each others.
But in the case where there are (almost) twice as many protoss players playing competitively as terran players, its a clear indicator of a balance problem. Besides balance, there can be two other explantions for this outcome;
1) The average terran player is alot worse than the average protoss player 2) There are more protoss players than terran players
Now we know that the latter is true too some extent, however, it doesn't fully explain the asymmetric distribution (one can easily do this math btw).
The former explanation seems like a very debateable explanation, but one that can not easily be disprooven. When that is said, lying all your faith in the fact that terran players are just worse than protoss players seems pretty "creative".
Regardless, these stats are simply the best indication of balance we can get. Make no mistake, they aren't perfect, but they are much more usefull than W/R that over time won't really matter.
If you are going to use sourced statistics, at least don't round them up in your favor. It says right there PvT is 54.01%, any unbiased rounding would yield 54% and not 55%. I am not saying this is the hugest deal, but conveniently rounding up to 55% shows the bias which really does not help your case here.
I actually didn't really check for the PvT numbers as someone else said 55% so I only looked for games played.
Anyway, my entire point is that these numbers really doesn't matter that much (which is also why I didn't double-check). Its the amount of games played that is the clear sign of imbalance here.
Too many people are simply looking isolated at the w/r ratio's (that are almost irrelevant) and basing balance off this. This has led too so much propaganda over time from someone like Plansix (who obviously doens't understand basic statistics). I think that is very bad for the Sc2-scene if we can't get closer to a balanced game to misinterpretation of the numbers.
Prediction In a couple of months from now, the Aliguac numbers will have gone closer to 50%, and we will have biased protoss players telling us all how balanced the game is and how all the terran "whiners" have been proved wrong.
I knew we were going to the mini novel from Hider once I challenged his logic. Of course his logic boils down to "it makes sense for me and the way i see this data. Therefor, Protoss players are worse than than other players." Spinning the numbers to favor your argument is so well used in every form of politics and by anyone pushing their own agenda. Yet we give it so much weight here on TL, when most of them come from a data mining site. Numbers are find, but they don't provide proof of anything beyond the number of players and who won.
Rather than focus on how many Protoss are in GM or who has a 3.5% lead in the win rate, we should focus on real discussion, like early game scouting for Terran. I have always said that more scouting is good and if Terran need more, thy should get it.
On December 18 2013 05:34 Plansix wrote: I knew we were going to the mini novel from Hider once I challenged his logic. Of course his logic boils down to "it makes sense for me and the way i see this data. Therefor, Protoss players are worse than there an players." Spinning the numbers to favor your argument is so well used in every form of politics and by anyone pushing their own agenda. Yet we give it so much weight here on TL, when most of them come from a data mining site.
Rather than focus on how many Protoss are in GM or who has a 3.5% lead in the win rate, we should focus on real discussion, like early game scouting for Terran. I have always said that more scouting is good and if Terran need more, thy should get it.
I am fine with you preferring a qualitiative balance discussion. From my post it should also be quite obvious that there can be problems with basing it only on quantitive statistics as it is based on one crucicial assumption (equally skilled). In an optimal balance discussion you combine qualitiative analysis with quantitive numbers, however my problem with your post was that you dismissed my analysis as "creative math", which is absolutely nonsense, since that's the absolute only number that tells us something about balance.
But if you feel your strenght is in the qualitiative analysis and not quantitive numbers I won't bother you about that anymore as long as you don't reply to post related to interpreting statistics.
Therefor, Protoss players are worse than there an players."
One last quote to (hopefully) end the discussion. Please reread my post, because that was not what I said at all. In fact I actually said that the opposite could be the case ( terran players worse than protoss players). When one is analyzing the game quantitively, and is coming to the conclusion that terran isn't UP, there is an implicit assumption (behind the conclusion) that terran players on average are worse than their protoss counterparts.
But under the assumption that the average protoss is equally as skilled as the average terran player, it is simply a mathematical law that superior terran players are being faced up against inferior protoss/zergs on both the ladder.
On December 18 2013 04:26 Plansix wrote: I can only handle silly arguments for so long. People should just take Dwfs approach and focus on specifics, like Terran scouting in the early game. Rather than the less than compelling arguments of "look at GM!!!! Do you se all those Protoss? Justify them to me, because that looks like some imbalance right there."
It's not the numbers that are telling of how frustrating the matchup is though, I don't think many people think it's imbalanced, and if they do they are wrong, it's just frustrating as hell and you have no room for error as terran. Obviously, at higher levels this is less of a problem because of the skill of the players, but at lower levels it's just like bashing your head against a wall. Especially because that besides harassment tools (widow mines and kind of hellbats) the matchup is entirely unchanged from both perspectives. The matchup is pretty much the same composition vs. the same composition for 3 years now. It's getting really stale.
in most walks of life even the most mathematically challenged individual throws around statistics as if they know their significance. unfortunately this thread is no exception.
without giving a 4th year unit summary in statistics, can i just underline the most important point about the aligulac data which was made by another poster above; the sample size being so much larger for protoss games, which would at first glance suggest an enormous imbalance towards protoss. the order of difference in the protoss games is no small amount! statistically it is humongous and should be the focus of discussion and hypothesis when it comes to the game balance.
so then, the question should be, why do we have such a huge supply of protoss?
is it really credible to believe that it is simply because the terran players are worse at the game to such a massive degree? remember we are talking about under-representation to the degree of HUNDREDS with such a small sample, so if it was the case, as some posters suggest in this thread, that it is terran playing the game incorrectly, the degree to which this is happening would be truly extraordinary, bizarre even, considering how quickly other terrans can copy successful styles.
On December 19 2013 22:10 dreamseller wrote: in most walks of life even the most mathematically challenged individual throws around statistics as if they know their significance. unfortunately this thread is no exception.
without giving a 4th year unit summary in statistics, can i just underline the most important point about the aligulac data which was made by another poster above; the sample size being so much larger for protoss games, which would at first glance suggest an enormous imbalance towards protoss. the order of difference in the protoss games is no small amount! statistically it is humongous and should be the focus of discussion and hypothesis when it comes to the game balance.
so then, the question should be, why do we have such a huge supply of protoss?
is it really credible to believe that it is simply because the terran players are worse at the game to such a massive degree? remember we are talking about under-representation to the degree of HUNDREDS with such a small sample, so if it was the case, as some posters suggest in this thread, that it is terran playing the game incorrectly, the degree to which this is happening would be truly extraordinary, bizarre even, considering how quickly other terrans can copy successful styles.
Well I think everyone can agree that Protoss is much easier mechanically. But is it the Protoss players' fault that most of our units don't scale with micro anywhere near as well as Terrans'? A Terran with great multi-tasking and micro is godlike compared to a Terran with average multi-tasking and micro, but a Protoss with great multi-tasking and micro is only slightly better than a Protoss with average multi-tasking and micro.
Strategically though, I don't think that Protoss is any easier or stronger than Terran.
On December 18 2013 05:34 Plansix wrote: I knew we were going to the mini novel from Hider once I challenged his logic. Of course his logic boils down to "it makes sense for me and the way i see this data. Therefor, Protoss players are worse than than other players." Spinning the numbers to favor your argument is so well used in every form of politics and by anyone pushing their own agenda. Yet we give it so much weight here on TL, when most of them come from a data mining site. Numbers are find, but they don't provide proof of anything beyond the number of players and who won.
Rather than focus on how many Protoss are in GM or who has a 3.5% lead in the win rate, we should focus on real discussion, like early game scouting for Terran. I have always said that more scouting is good and if Terran need more, thy should get it.
Not sure if you know how stupid you sound, or you are just trolling...
Hider's "mini-novel" does not boil down to "it makes sense for me and the way I see this data..." it makes sense because it is logically correct. It doesn't take much brain power to see this.
Let me try to explain it to you: Imagine if the warhound got put back into the game and Terran just started dominating toss left and right. Imagine we look at the effect it would have on diamond and masters level players. All of a sudden their TvP win rate goes to 80-90% across the board. What would the effect be? Would they keep that same w/r forever? No. They would keep that w/r until their mmr got to the point that not only are the protoss they're playing against so much better than them that they can't always win, even with the imbalance, but their TvZ w/r, which is much less affected by the imbalanced warhound, drops low enough that their overall w/r settles around 50% (as the ladder is designed to make happen). By the end of it, these terran players' mmr would be much higher than their equally skilled protoss counterparts and would likely have received a promotion to reflect that. This is why looking at M/GM racial distribution is a valid balance concern.
The only explanation for there being so many more protoss in GM than terran, aside from imbalance, would be that: 1) The average terran player is less skilled than the average protoss player, or 2) The numbers are actually just reflecting the racial distribution of all players (ie. there are twice as many protoss players than there are terran overall, therefore we should expect there to be twice as many protoss players in GM than terran... as well as in every other league).
Obviously, while there are slightly more protoss players overall, this does not come close to explaining the GM distribution imbalance. Therefore, unless you contend that the average terran player is simply less skilled than the average protoss player (which you're more than welcome to argue) there must be some imbalance in the way the game plays out currently.
Now, due to this being an RTS, we must always account for the meta game. It could in fact be the case that terran just still haven't found the solution to dealing with the current iteration of protoss. I personally think that more hellbat usage in the late game could help, but getting to that late game in an even position with the protoss seems to be easier said than done these days due to the relative safety of greedy protoss and the extremely powerful early game threats they pose to the terran player in the early game (the terran must play safe, while the protoss can largely dictate the pace of the game).
If you still think this logic only "makes sense for me and the way i see this data" then I apologize, but I have neither the time, nor the crayons to explain it to you.
On December 19 2013 22:10 dreamseller wrote: in most walks of life even the most mathematically challenged individual throws around statistics as if they know their significance. unfortunately this thread is no exception.
without giving a 4th year unit summary in statistics, can i just underline the most important point about the aligulac data which was made by another poster above; the sample size being so much larger for protoss games, which would at first glance suggest an enormous imbalance towards protoss. the order of difference in the protoss games is no small amount! statistically it is humongous and should be the focus of discussion and hypothesis when it comes to the game balance.
so then, the question should be, why do we have such a huge supply of protoss?
is it really credible to believe that it is simply because the terran players are worse at the game to such a massive degree? remember we are talking about under-representation to the degree of HUNDREDS with such a small sample, so if it was the case, as some posters suggest in this thread, that it is terran playing the game incorrectly, the degree to which this is happening would be truly extraordinary, bizarre even, considering how quickly other terrans can copy successful styles.
Well I think everyone can agree that Protoss is much easier mechanically. But is it the Protoss players' fault that most of our units don't scale with micro anywhere near as well as Terrans'? A Terran with great multi-tasking and micro is godlike compared to a Terran with average multi-tasking and micro, but a Protoss with great multi-tasking and micro is only slightly better than a Protoss with average multi-tasking and micro.
Strategically though, I don't think that Protoss is any easier or stronger than Terran.
Back in WoL, patchzerg was a common derogatory term used to describe zerg players who found a sudden jump in success after some pretty hefty zerg buffs(people were saying Scarlett was a patchzerg). It was difficult to distinguish which zerg player was truly amazing and who was just enjoying a disproportionate level of success because snoozelord/infestor was so incredibly strong.
I feel protoss is kind of in a similar position now, it's hard to tell whether someone just got really good or if protoss got really good. Especially vs terran, it always looks more or less the same. It should be noted that protoss gameplay in HotS is far more dynamic and varied than zerg was in mid-late WoL, so even if protoss is very strong, it's definitely harder to play than BL/infestor with 3-3 IT and instant fungals was.
No one is blaming the players, their only job is to win with whatever tools they have available, if that means blink stalker all in or two hour swarm host turtle every game, so be it. The blame lies squarely on Blizzard.